Menu

Kenneth Hagin & Copeland - Holy Laughter (Video)

S
sermonindex

I do believe in a joy that comes after weeping. I do believe in a biblical holy laughter...

Psa 126:1 A Song of degrees. When the LORD turned again the captivity of Zion, we were like them that dream.
Psa 126:2 Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among the heathen, The LORD hath done great things for them.
Psa 126:3 The LORD hath done great things for us; whereof we are glad.
Psa 126:4 Turn again our captivity, O LORD, as the streams in the south.
Psa 126:5 They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.
Psa 126:6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.


I also believe in a an unholy laughter...

Luk 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.


Please watch this Video. What kind of laughter do you think Kenneth Hagin & Copeland have? Holy or Unholy.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OxJmM54gzKc

S
sermonindex

Hi,

Don't think I want to see it!

I saw a video of Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard Brown, several years ago and it was horrendous! They seemed to have teeth like wolves and the eyes of dead fish. I remember an old man someone brought up onto the platform. They "zapped" him so he fell down. He looked utterly frightened and bewildered - especially frightened. When he tried to get up one of them put him down again. It was utterly horrible - seemed like a form of spiritual abuse!

A friend said she thought Kenneth Copeland had improved in recent years so I looked at his website. It is very upbeat and encourages faith that God can do something if you have a need. So maybe it would help someone who was depressed or had lost hope. But my impression was that it was all "cake and cotton candy", no spiritual meat whatsoever.

There were prophecies printed on the site too, but they were all full of predicting blessing etc. I didn't really witness with any of them - though they sounded "wonderful".

Sorry if that's very negative, but that was my reaction.

I think this sort of thing has been discussed a lot on this forum already, but maybe we need reminding?

In Him

Jeannette

J
JaySaved

May God have mercy on what is being done in His name.

J
jordanamo

This is the first time I've seen a video of the laughing phenomenon that I've heard of... and I am shocked. I've never seen such mass delusion in my life. Everyone was caught up in it. Wow. That is a true manifestation of the spirit of delusion, and it's not new, it's been around for quite some time (the laughing stuff). From the Oxford English Dictionary entry for "holy laugh,"

1829 Western Monthly Rev. II. 477 Dr. Roberts is very pointed in his testimony against the abominable practice of jumping, pointing, dancing, boreing... Might he not have added the ‘*holy laugh’? 1833 H. BARNARD Let. 27 Mar. in Maryland Hist. Mag. (1918) XIII. 328 The preacher in the midst of a fervent prayer, will all of a sudden burst out into a loud boisterous laugh... The most godly of his brethren join with him. This is called the ‘Holy Laugh’. 1845 J. J. HOOPER Some Adv. S. Suggs x. 122 Near these last, stood a delicate woman in that hysterical condition in which the nerves are incontrollable, and which is vulgarly..termed the ‘holy laugh’. 1948 E. N. DICK Dixie Frontier 198 When it got started in an audience, everybody would be seized with hearty natural laughter. It would last for hours sometimes. This was known as the ‘holy laugh’.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (ESV)

J
JesusIsMyLrd

i can't believe how sick this is. "Drunk" indeed! They are just sitting around being entertained!!!! THAT"S NOT WHAT THE DESCIPLES DID AT PENTICOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry about the excessive exclamation marks.

"The zeal of Thine house hath eaten me up"

God have mercy. God have mercy.

"My Lord, What a mornin', when the stars begin to fall..." As the song says...

C
crsschk

A couple of older postings on this ...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1897&forum=40&post_id=&refresh=Go]Kenneth Hagin and the Laughing Revival.[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2477&forum=36]Holy Laughter?[/url]

F
FireinmyBones1

Has this site digressed into nothing more than a forum to discuss the excesses in some movements that otherwise are bearing good fruit? Honestly? You all seem so disgusted and appalled by the excesses in the church, but what about the lack? I would personally rather have to much passion, to much excitement than what exists in most churches. As one man has said, "I would rather contain a fire than shovel ice." I have not watched the video but I don't need to becuase I have probably experienced something similar than what you are all mocking and labeling as unscriptural mass delusion. Yet you overlook the key biblical principle in interpreting whether such manifestations are of God, and no it has nothing to do with "decently and in order..." since most of us have no right to use that scripture in attempting to put restrainst on what takes place in our services. The reason we have not the right is because that scripture was written to a congregation that was bursting at the seems with spiritual gifts and fiery passion - not your typical american church service. The key to interpreting whether such things come from above, below, or in between is in the fruit which comes from such experiences. I've seen plenty of people experience such things and not change - but as for me, my life has been utterly transformed. So personally all of the self-righteous, watchmen on the wall, pseudo-broken hearted prophet, talk doesn't change my opinion one iota. All of the oceans of words coming from those who attempted to talk me out of the power of God never changed me or delivered me from the bondage of sin, but one touch from His hand transformed my life!
Jesus is King over all!
Jeff

C
crsschk

Has this site digressed into nothing more than a forum to discuss the excesses in some movements that otherwise are bearing good fruit? Honestly?

No, it has not. It all depends on your perspective and contribution. There are plenty of other things going on here.

I have not watched the video but I don't need to becuase I have probably ...

And you would then be countering this with ... what you have no right to comment on then? That is irrational.

Yet you overlook the key biblical principle in interpreting whether such manifestations are of God, and no it has nothing to do with "decently and in order..."

It most certainly does.
The key to interpreting whether such things come from above, below, or in between is in the fruit which comes from such experiences.

According to the scriptures.
So personally all of the self-righteous, watchmen on the wall, pseudo-broken hearted prophet, talk doesn't change my opinion one iota.

Nor does yours. Who is being self-righteous here?

C
crsschk

For me personally to judge the video on this post would be a shame upon myself.

And not to judge it would be shame on [i]Him[/i].

We have biblical duty, and that is to uphold all that Christ Jesus and the apostles left for us to follow.

Which is no different than what is being done here.

S
sermonindex

My point: The problem is not holy laughter, it's not prosperity preaching, or charismatic or baptist or any other belief. It is our own personal lacks of really knowing the one true Holy Lord. We know of him from the Bible. But that just about sums us all up. Where are our greater works the word of God says we can do!!!~But we listen to that ex-murderer Moses, because his face did shine and all the mighty works the Lord did in his daily life. And ex-murderer and adulterer King David, from all the mighty works the Lord did in his daily life. Dear ones including myself. We need to seek the giver not the gift, BUT WE ALL NEED THE LORD MORE AND MORE AND MORE AND MORE (AND HIS REALITY!!!) IN OUR DAILY LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have a great holiday I'll be back in a week

J
jordanamo

Where are our greater works the word of God says we can do!!!

I hear of this a lot here and elsewhere... people want the signs and wonders of a person or otherwise, "who are you to speak?"-- let me advise you and others that the signs and wonders are easily copied by Satan. I am highly suspect of people who seek after signs and wonders, as if therein lies the actual apostolic reality, when in truth it does not.

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' (ESV)

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders. (ESV)

Etc.

Jordan

P
psalm1

In 1995 the church i attended experienced a move of the Holy spirit. About half of the congregation got the holy laughter. I was "hit " as well.You HAVE to be there to experience the presence of the Holy Spirit.I know who my redeemer is . I have sat in his awesome presence. I have experienced the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit. What are you going to say? you werent there. When the Holy Spirit came in His presence was so powerfull it knocked my pastor on the floor.My pastor and I were instantly restored back to fellowship.[we had been at odds for over a year] WE supernaturally bonded that night at that meeting. This is the work of the Holy Spirit.Do you think the devil did this?People got healed delivered set free saved all in one service.WITH MANY PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOLY LAUGHTER. Now some would say this is the devil. Well seems like I recall the words of Jesus"how acan satan cast out satan'?
......David

H
hmmhmm

people want so often signs and wonders, many denominations even focus on this as the "main" thing, what did Jesus say? he said dont tell this to anyone, because he didn't want people to think thats why he came.... the most important and the greatest miracle of all is the new birth, an unholy sinner cleansed and born again, made holy put into this filthy world and still walk in holiness, that is a miracle...

Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, [b]but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."[/b]

and Jesus commands us to judge false prophets and teachers.... he even says if we dont understand that there are false Christianity we can not understand anything at all.

(parable of the sower)

NIV Mark 4:13 Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? [b]How then will you understand any parable?
[/b]


Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; [b]and shall deceive many.[/b]

this is a scary passage, it doesn't say they will try, it says they shall decive....

many.....

D
davidt

Well, first off the early disciples weren't drunk nor did they act drunk. The only reason anyone thought they were was because they were speaking another language. Also, we are to be sober and not drunk as it says in Ephesians. Sure there is joy and laughter in His presence, but if that be His true glory then holiness will be a result. And, there are so many who claim to have had those experiences, so, where is the fruit! O that the tree would have something more then leaves.

P
psalm1

oh yes we must be on guard against magnifying the gifts, miracles and signs and wonders.lets take the position that if anything happens in a meeting it is false and of the devil. lets not let the Holy Spirit do anything .That way we will be safe and we will not be decieved.
John said "art thou he?OR SHOULD WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER?
Jesus said"go tell John The blind see ,the lame walk lepers are cleansed,the deaf hear, the dead are raised and to the poor the gospel is preached"
dont you just hate that.? Jesus had the nerve to put the gospel last.But worse than that he claimed his miracles authenticated his ministry.
maybe the bad ,second Jesus is of the No signs and wonders crowd.
how does the unbelieving world know Jesus is alive? By signs wonders and miracles.
And yet I am to swallow this nonsense that signs and wonderss arebad?
How can this be? how did this deception creep in? When Jesus and my ministries are in fact authenticated by signs and wwonders.
The lame man at the gate recieved a miracle not because the disciples were reserved and fearfull that their enduement of power was bad but that " how could they NOT give it out!"
Im looking for my witness to have power not intelectual elloquence.
The man on the street needs a miracle not a hot shot with his scripture flash cards.
while the enimic psycological salvation poweless message is hammered over and again to brain dead drugged out americans,
missionaries are on the front lines of third world countries dying.
but they see mighty mighty miricles.The dead are being raised .I DONT CARE WHAT POONEN SAYS HE IS WRONG THE DEAAD ARE RAISED. At the hands of missionaries.
Miricles are not bad . How can God do bad?
....David

H
hmmhmm


psalm1 wrote:
.I DONT CARE WHAT POONEN SAYS HE IS WRONG THE DEAAD ARE RAISED
....David

when did you last witness this brother?

i do belive in miracles and healing and gift of the spirit, and i do belive if God wants it he can raise from the dead, but brother many speak so much about the gifts, Jesus dident, he did miracles...... he dident speak about them. I to want to see miracles.... but still the greatest miracle is the new birth.....

edit: im just saying brother we should be very careful, have you seen that video of "Marjoe Gortner"? do a search on youtube if you havent, i watched this yesterday and it broke my heart.

i feelt so sorry for all those people lining up to recive prayer by this man, and he doesent even belive in God! he was just acting.... at least he is honest and says he is lying, how many others are out there that is just pretending?

take heed.....

H
hmmhmm

i think this article has some verygood "points" , and would be good for all of us to read,


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17737&post_id=138754&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=34#138754]Does God do miracles today? MacArthur[/url]

F
FireinmyBones1

LOL - good points, good points . . . I stand corrected on any self-righteousness.
jeff

H
hmmhmm


FireinmyBones1 wrote:
LOL - good points, good points . . . I stand corrected on any self-righteousness.
jeff

forgive me brother, i dont understand what you are saying. did you watch this video i was talking about?

S
sermonindex

I'd rather see people laughing, than weeping as they pick up the body parts of their loved ones blown apart by suicide bombers outside a mosque or a Tel Aviv sidewalk cafe, who perpetrate that madness in "name of God"....consider that.

S
sermonindex

In 1995 the church i attended experienced a move of the Holy spirit.

Praise the Lord! So what did God do?

About half of the congregation got the holy laughter.

Did they get the holy weeping prior to the holy laughter? This would be the biblical order for holy laughter... It only comes after holy weeping.

"...Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh." [Luk 6:21]

"They that sow in tears shall reap in joy." [Psa 126:5]

"Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better." [Ecc 7:3]

"Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;" [Psa 30:11

"Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law." [psa 119:136]

"And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." [Eze 9:4]

I was "hit " as well.You HAVE to be there to experience the presence of the Holy Spirit.I know who my redeemer is. I have sat in his awesome presence. I have experienced the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit. What are you going to say? you werent there.

I wasn't there... I'm only asking for a little more info regarding the fruit of your experience.

Was the gospel preached? Was Jesus Christ crucified preached? Was the Word of God preached and taught? Could sinners remain at ease in the congregation?

"...for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!" [1Co 9:16]

"But we preach Christ crucified..." [1Co 1:23]

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." [2Ti 4:2]

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." [1Ti 6:3-5]

"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised

S
sermonindex

When the Holy Spirit came in His presence was so powerfull it knocked my pastor on the floor.

I'm not against such an experience... If it happened because your pastor had a revelation of the holiness of Jesus Christ. Falling to the floor as a dead man would be the right way to go.

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead..." [Rev 1:17]

"Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground." [Dan 10:9]

My pastor and I were instantly restored back to fellowship.[we had been at odds for over a year] WE supernaturally bonded that night at that meeting. This is the work of the Holy Spirit.Do you think the devil did this?

The devil can restore fellowship among people. he does it alot. Cults have restored fellowship in their meetings. The devil supernaturally bonds people together perhaps everyday.

I wasn't there... I'm only asking for a little more info regarding the fruit of your experience.

The question is not, "Was the fellowship among people restored?" The question is, "Was the fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost restored? Was fellowship in the gospel restored?"

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." [1Jn 1:3]

"If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind." [Php 2:1-2]

"For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;" [Php 1:5]

People got healed delivered set free saved all in one service.

Healed and saved from what? Sickness or Sinfulness? Or, perhaps both. However, if people where not saved from backsliding... I would question such an experience. If it was both... Then I rejoice that God did a supernatural work of grace in your congregation.

"I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee. [Psa 41:4]]

"Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God." [Jer 3:22]

...WITH MANY PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOLY LAUGHTER. Now some would say this is the devil. Well seems like I recall the words of Jesus"how acan satan cast out satan'?

If your experience fails the biblical test, then it could not possibly be God.

1. There must be Holy Weeping prior to Holy Laughter.

2. The gospel must be preached to sinners. To be more specific, Jesus Christ crucified must preached to sinners.

3. The Word of God must be preached and taught to the congregation.

4. If the presence of God was manifested, sinners cannot remain at ease in the congregation.

5. [If any fellowship is restored] Fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost must be restored. Fellowship in the gospel must be restored.

6. [If any healings accure] It should include healing of soul and not only healing of flesh.

keep in rememberance that the devil is able to perform signs, wonders, miracles, and healings. But, he is unable to heal a soul from sin and death.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." [Mt 24:24]

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, " [2Th 2:9]

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. [Rev 13:12-14]

Only God can heal a soul from sin and death.

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." [1Pe 2:24]

"O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness." [Psa 30:2-4]

Praise the LORD!
(PS. I edited it for minor spell checks)

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
In 1995 the church i attended experienced a move of the Holy spirit. About half of the congregation got the holy laughter. I was "hit " as well.You HAVE to be there to experience the presence of the Holy Spirit.I know who my redeemer is . I have sat in his awesome presence. I have experienced the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit. What are you going to say? you werent there. When the Holy Spirit came in His presence was so powerfull it knocked my pastor on the floor.My pastor and I were instantly restored back to fellowship.[we had been at odds for over a year] WE supernaturally bonded that night at that meeting. This is the work of the Holy Spirit.Do you think the devil did this?People got healed delivered set free saved all in one service.WITH MANY PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOLY LAUGHTER. Now some would say this is the devil. Well seems like I recall the words of Jesus"how acan satan cast out satan'?
......David
Hi David

Unless we were at the meeting you describe we maybe have no right to comment on your personal experience. The comments here are mostly about the video, or in my case another video with Kenneth Copeland (I did try to look a the current one but can't download it at the moment)

Also, we can't completely discount the possibility that the Lord might step in and truly bless someone [u][i]in spite of[/i][/u] the presence of an alien spirit such as was plainly operating in the video I saw. Think of Balaam, the false mediumistic prophet who tried to curse Israel, but God forced him to bless them instead!

All I know is that the video I saw revolted my spirit so much that it almost made me physically sick. There was no way the spirit dominating THAT meeting was the Holy Spirit!

Many of us have probably experienced TRUE holy laughter, and it's completely different from that.

I also experienced the counterfeit laughter, and if felt wonderful at the time, but the Lord later revealed that it had not been of Him after all.

Some people have even needed deliverance after beeing prayed for to receive this "blessing".

I hope your account does describe the genuine and nothe counterfeit, but maybe you need to check it out with the Lord to be absolutely sure.

I did, when someone said that anyone who'd had this experience should repent!

My first reaction was, "That's a bit much! Surely what I experienced was of God - wasn't it?

But I prayed, "Lord, if what she said was right then I'm willing to repent, but I haven't a clue what I'm supposed to repent OF! You'll have to show me."

And He did!

Love in Him

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

ce4 wrote:
My point: The problem is not holy laughter, it's not prosperity preaching, or charismatic or baptist or any other belief. It is our own personal lacks of really knowing the one true Holy Lord. We know of him from the Bible. But that just about sums us all up. Where are our greater works the word of God says we can do!!!~But we listen to that ex-murderer Moses, because his face did shine and all the mighty works the Lord did in his daily life. And ex-murderer and adulterer King David, from all the mighty works the Lord did in his daily life. Dear ones including myself. We need to seek the giver not the gift, BUT WE ALL NEED THE LORD MORE AND MORE AND MORE AND MORE (AND HIS REALITY!!!) IN OUR DAILY LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!! AMEN!!!!!

Thanks for the reminder

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
oh yes we must be on guard against magnifying the gifts, miracles and signs and wonders.lets take the position that if anything happens in a meeting it is false and of the devil. lets not let the Holy Spirit do anything .That way we will be safe and we will not be decieved.
John said "art thou he?OR SHOULD WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER?
Jesus said"go tell John The blind see ,the lame walk lepers are cleansed,the deaf hear, the dead are raised and to the poor the gospel is preached"
dont you just hate that.? Jesus had the nerve to put the gospel last.But worse than that he claimed his miracles authenticated his ministry.
maybe the bad ,second Jesus is of the No signs and wonders crowd.
how does the unbelieving world know Jesus is alive? By signs wonders and miracles.
And yet I am to swallow this nonsense that signs and wonderss arebad?
How can this be? how did this deception creep in? When Jesus and my ministries are in fact authenticated by signs and wwonders.
The lame man at the gate recieved a miracle not because the disciples were reserved and fearfull that their enduement of power was bad but that " how could they NOT give it out!"
Im looking for my witness to have power not intelectual elloquence.
The man on the street needs a miracle not a hot shot with his scripture flash cards.
while the enimic psycological salvation poweless message is hammered over and again to brain dead drugged out americans,
missionaries are on the front lines of third world countries dying.
but they see mighty mighty miricles.The dead are being raised .I DONT CARE WHAT POONEN SAYS HE IS WRONG THE DEAAD ARE RAISED. At the hands of missionaries.
Miricles are not bad . How can God do bad?
....David
Bro David

[u]No one[/u] is saying that miracles, signs and wonders are bad. Only that discernment is needed as to their SOURCE.

An obvious example of false signs is occult healing, or someone being hypnotised in order to cure them of a phobia or to give up smoking. These methods do work, but is their source the Holy Spirit?

Apparently those who are "healed" by these methods often show signs of spiritual or personality damage afterwards - such as mental troubles, alcoholism or an unusual resistance to the Gospel.

My plea is for discernment in these matters, rather than ASSUMING it is ALL of the Holy Spirit, as is claimed by those who practice these things. What I saw in the video and elsewhere in some meetings was abusive, not Holy Spirit inspired.

The presence of the counterfeit actually PROVES that the genuine exists, but we'd better know the difference!

Blessings

Jeannette

P
psalm1

There are only 2 possibilities concerning the spirit realm. I have been in meetings where the Holy spirit was present to such a degree that people were absolutely disarmed. Wonderfull things happen at this time.
On the other hand I have gone into the very turf of the devil.
My church back in the eighties was in a shopping center. A club for teenagers opened up next door to us. We prayed and it seemed like our prayers were working in reverse and the club doubled in size. We were unable to hold our nitely meetings because of the music and our sisters weree being verbally and physically assalted.
so we decided to be open when they were and tried to turn our church into a mission field.
We were somewhat successfull.!
During this time when the club was growing the police had to be there at all times. It was so out of hand with violence.[ the fruit of the devil].
We decided to go into the club. The bouncers and the police advised us not to.We went anyway. We were so frustrated with this ongoing prob. we thought maybe it was time for a showdown with the devil. I will never forget the feeling of being in there. The hair on the back of my neck stood straight up. It was as if you could feel the very breatth of satan blowing on your neck.I can still remember the strobe lites, the smoke,the blaring music and the painted up demon posesed people jumping at us and intimidating us.
But the most frightning of all was the presence of the devil.
So my point is...... Having been in the awesome presence of both powers I can tell you if you belong to Jesus you will know instantly what "spirit" you are encountering.
Its not spooky , It not some grey,vague,"only we have discernment thing you guys try to make it out to be.
There is a true Holy Spirit and that is it."spirits" other than that are the devil .
YOU TALK ABOUT DECEPTION AS IF YOU ARE EXPERTS BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEE A VIDEO.The people that make those videos you watch are men on a mission. They want to destroy those ministries.
Is there error in the Holy laughter crowd? YES
Error in the wof crowd YES
Error in Charasmatics YES
Error in me....YES
Error in you.... YES
Holy laughter from hell? NO
wof from hell? No
Charasmatics from hell ? No
Am I from hell? Yes.... I mean NO![sorry,a discernment glitch]
Are you from hell? NO

My point is you Will not be decieved if you belong to Jesus and walk in the spirit.
But you psycological christians with theories about the Holy Spirit ..... It is easy to decieve you because you approach spiritual things with your intelectual abilities.
What do you think you will do when the next wave "hits"
You will stand on the sidelines and Judge spiritual things with your intellect.
Read Wigglesworth and you will find out in a hurry you will never be able to guess what is next. He relied on the Inward voice to direct him. His mind would say no to the prompting of God [just like you and me]
But when he obeyed God miracles happened.NOT A MIND , PSYCHE thing!
When you minister in the spirit under the unction of the Holy Spirit, you become "a different person". You can see things and hear things about the person and the Holy Spirit tells you what to do. Just like Wiggleswworth!
LOOK- I WANT THE GIFTS AND I WANT THE GIVER. It is as if this forum says "one or the other but not both".
...David


B
BrokenOne

I have hesitated for several days, trying to decide if I wanted to post here. I am more comfortable in “Devotional Thoughts”. I don’t know if my thoughts will add anything to the discussion, but I submit them for your consideration.

In May of this year I went with some friends to a women’s retreat, knowing that it was a “charismatic” event. I attend a non-denominational church and believe in the operation of the gifts of the Spirit, so I was okay with going. It was a very charismatic weekend. Without commenting on the events of the weekend, I would like to share what I wrote in my journal upon returning home:

I have been unable to finish recording my account of the events of the retreat. I have wondered if possibly I was too tired, but there seems to be no passion remaining regarding the happenings of the weekend. While I was there in the middle of all the eventfulness of it all – the extreme worship, the prophetic words, etc. – it was exciting. But I find myself asking, what has been gained? Did I go to seek a sign, a manifestation, something supernatural that would make me feel special and spiritual? How have those things changed me? They have only made me realize a bit more that there will never be a sign or wonder that will satisfy the longing of my soul – only the wonder that is Jesus Christ. There is no deeper or more profound experience that the love of God in Christ Jesus. And I will find everything I have been searching for when I learn to lose myself in Him.

Danielle

L
Logic

psalm1 wrote:
The people that make those videos you watch are men on a mission
They want to destroy those ministries.
Yes, they do want to destroy those ministries, because they are leading people astray and giving a perverted image of God.

Holy laughter from hell? NO
wof from hell? No
Charasmatics from hell ? No
Am I from hell? Yes.... I mean NO![sorry,a discernment glitch]
Are you from hell? NO
All the above, Yes!
If it ain't the Holy Sprirt, their is no other spirit but from Hell.

My point is you Will not be decieved if you belong to Jesus and walk in the spirit.
But you psycological christians with theories about the Holy Spirit ..... It is easy to decieve you because you approach spiritual things with your intelectual abilities.

Therefore, you say that we don't belong to Jesus and walk in the spirit.

I do not base the judgment of this on my intelectual abilities, but on Scripture along with the character of God.

What do you think you will do when the next wave "hits"
It is not the miricals that I am judging, but their corrupt doctrins of demons.
[b]Deu 13:1-3[/b] [color=990000]If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams rises among you, and gives you a sign or a wonder,
[b]:2[/b] and the sign or the wonder which he spoke to you occurs, saying, Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us serve them,
[b]:3[/b] you shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams. For Jehovah your God is testing you, to know if you love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul.[/color]

When you minister in the spirit under the unction of the Holy Spirit, you become "a different person".
That is error.
It is when one becomes saved, that is when one becomes "a different person".

These videos are haveing the flesh is being touched.


Futhyermore, Many people are seeking God and they have no idea how to seek for Him.

Many Christians use their feelings to base their knowledge of God on. They will say, “I feel God in this place or I feel that God is telling me this and that.”

One will always know for a fact that God is telling them something. One must never guess on God!

People who guess on Gods will, They will say, "maybe God wants this or that", and they go on and do what God maybe had said.
Or,
they look for things and say, “Maybe it’s a sign from God.”

God never intended for us to use our senses to confirm spiritual things!
[b]2Corinth. 5:7[/b] [color=990000]“for we walk by faith, not by sight.”[/color] in this verse “by sight” represents our senses or walking by the flesh.

The bible tells about sensual people:
[b]James 3:15[/b] [color=990000]This wisdom descends not from above, but is earthly, [b]sensual[/b], devilish.[/color]
And
[b]Jude 1:19[/b] [color=990000]These be they who separate themselves, [b]sensual[/b], having not the Spirit.[/color]

As in the Old Testament. The Holy Oil used for anointing represents the Holy Spirit.
[b]Exodus 30:31[/b] [color=990000]and say to the children of Israel, This is to be the Lord's holy oil, from generation to generation. [b]32: It is not to be used for man's flesh[/b], and no other is to be made like it: holy it is, and you are to keep it holy.[/color]
[b]Psalm 133:2[/b] [color=990000]the precious ointment upon the head, running down upon the beard, running down upon the beard of Aaron, running down upon the hem of his garment,"[/color]
The Oil never touched his skin (flesh), and he was the high priest.

In these videos, nothing is benificial for sanctification and edification.

LOOK- I WANT THE GIFTS AND I WANT THE GIVER.
Please answer this:
What do you want the Gifts for?

Furthermore, we are to test the spirits. How?

S
sermonindex

In May of this year I went with some friends to a women’s retreat, knowing that it was a “charismatic” event. I attend a non-denominational church and believe in the operation of the gifts of the Spirit, so I was okay with going. It was a very charismatic weekend. Without commenting on the events of the weekend, I would like to share what I wrote in my journal upon returning home:

I have been unable to finish recording my account of the events of the retreat. I have wondered if possibly I was too tired, but there seems to be no passion remaining regarding the happenings of the weekend. While I was there in the middle of all the eventfulness of it all – the extreme worship, the prophetic words, etc. – it was exciting. But I find myself asking, what has been gained? Did I go to seek a sign, a manifestation, something supernatural that would make me feel special and spiritual? How have those things changed me? They have only made me realize a bit more that there will never be a sign or wonder that will satisfy the longing of my soul – only the wonder that is Jesus Christ. There is no deeper or more profound experience that the love of God in Christ Jesus. And I will find everything I have been searching for when I learn to lose myself in Him.

Danielle

Danielle, That is a very edifying testimony. I thank God you shared it.

-Abraham

S
sermonindex

"Sorrow [is] better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better." (ECC 7:3)

"Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and [your] joy to heaviness." (JAM 4:9)

"Blessed [are ye] that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed [are ye] that weep now: for ye shall laugh." (LUK 6:21)

"Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep." (LUK 6:25)

How will an almighty King - pierced through hands and feet, with stripes beyond measure on His back, and crowned with thorns - judge an obese evangalist who participates in an orgy of laughter?

P
psalm1

Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father which is in heaven. Jesus the very son of God was not revealed to the natural man but "hidden". The natural mind is an enemy of God.
Lets not make the mistake of intellectually discerning the things of God.
The pharasies tried this with Jesus staanding face to face with them.
Talk about deception. The natural mind trying to discern the spirit? the perfect incubator for deception.
...David

P
psalm1

I read the last part of the sermon by wigglesworth on SI home page.Read the last 2 paragraphs. You will see the man thet seeks the fullness of God seeks the highest devotion to God.
You erroneously think that a man that goes after thee gifts and annointing of God will take the "low" road and miss God or become messed up.
Actually just the opposite is true. Once saved we should seek every blessing and empowerment heaven has to offer. You come up with every arrgument immaginable to keep the church in its current powerless state.
I personally want to raise the dead.
I have a

quesstion...... Is premature death a work of the devil?
David

S
sermonindex

"Sorrow [is] better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better." (ECC 7:3)

"Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and [your] joy to heaviness." (JAM 4:9)

"Blessed [are ye] that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed [are ye] that weep now: for ye shall laugh." (LUK 6:21)

"Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep." (LUK 6:25)

How will an almighty King - pierced through hands and feet, with stripes beyond measure on His back, and crowned with thorns - judge an obese evangalist who participates in an orgy of laughter?

I praise the LORD for this comment.

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Psa 9:20 Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Jer 13:17 But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

L
Logic

psalm1 wrote:
Lets not make the mistake of intellectually discerning the things of God.
[b]John 4:24[/b] [color=990000]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in [b]truth[/b].[/color]
[b]Eph 5:9[/b] [color=990000](For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and [b]truth[/b];)[/color]
Truth is an intellectual concept. One must never turn off their mind about the things of God.

L
Lotis

Hahaha. You don't want a part in the joy, oh wells, your loss. Just wait and see what God does next, if you can't handle a bit of laughter, no wonder you can't handle signs and wonders and miracles. God's a fun and kind God, who says he can't do something like this? I know, I know, he's also stern and serious. But consider, just because I am stern and serious sometimes, doesn't mean I never let people have joy. If that was a room filled with suicidal, depressed, oppressed people, and God came down and gave them all Joy to the point of laughter, would you still tear your garments? God can do what he wants, let the fruit determine if the manifestation was him or not. Quit boxing him in, sooner or later, he's gonna blow your box to pieces. But its ok, he will still love you, and maybe give you some joy too. Here, have a drink, taste and see that the Lord is good. Much Love

S
sermonindex

God's a fun and kind God, who says he can't do something like this? I know, I know, he's also stern and serious.

God is a Holy God, the angels who are encamped around His thrown cover there eyes and cry our HOLY HOLY HOLY is the Lord God almighty... not funny funny funny.

2 Thessalonians 2 (NIV)

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

S
sermonindex

psalm1 wrote:
There are only 2 possibilities concerning the spirit realm. I have been in meetings where the Holy spirit was present to such a degree that people were absolutely disarmed. Wonderful things happen at this time.
So have I

On the other hand I have gone into the very turf of the devil...

... So my point is...... Having been in the awesome presence of both powers I can tell you if you belong to Jesus you will know instantly what "spirit" you are encountering.

Exactly! Just as I did with that video!
Its not spooky , Its not some grey, vague, "only we have discernment thing you guys try to make it out to be.

There is a true Holy Spirit and that is it. "spirits" other than that are the devil.

Of course! But what do you mean by: " 'only we have discernment' thing you guys try to make it out to be"? Who are "you guys"? And why do you think anyone is describing anything "grey and spooky"?

There are areas of doubt in discernment, of course, rather like smelling milk to check if it's "off". Some individuals can discern better than others in certain matters, as some are more sensitive to certain smells.

The experience you described, of being “on the devil’s turf” needed little discernment, but sometimes Satan, and his servants, come “as angels of light”, as Paul warned us.

There’s a difference between rape and seduction. Rape is obviously evil; but seduction can seem to the victim like something wonderful and exciting, not evil. Does that make it any less wrong? Child abusers sometimes make that excuse, that the youngster they are molesting enjoys it. Does that make it any less wrong – even if they did?

Do you seriously think that Satan brought a horrible “atmosphere” with him when he came to Eve in the Garden? Some snakes can be really beautiful!

That's why we need each other. Many times I've thought something was OK, only to have a friend, who was wiser or more experienced in that area, give a word of caution.

Often I’ve not wanted to listen – as you don’t want to listen. But my friend has usually turned out to be right.

As I said, we don't really have a right to judge the particular meeting you described, because we weren't there. But we have every right to discern a video such as the one mentioned, or the one I saw.


Blessings

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

YOU TALK ABOUT DECEPTION AS IF YOU ARE EXPERTS BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEE A VIDEO.The people that make those videos you watch are men on a mission. They want to destroy those ministries.
But I went to the website of Kenneth Copeland ministries! I've also seen him on the God channel. And had exactly the same reaction each time to him and his ministry, though maybe not as strong, as to the video. The one I saw was apparently a promotional video produced by his ministry, designed not to criticise but to impress!

Is there error in the Holy laughter crowd? YES
Error in the wof crowd YES
Error in Charasmatics YES
Error in me....YES
Error in you.... YES
[i][u]Holy laughter from hell? NO
wof from hell? No
Charasmatics from hell ? No [/u]
[/i]
There is however such a thing as [u]un[/u]holy laughter, and that was what I personally saw and heard on the video. I have also seen and heard it in certain meetings. As well as seen and heard and experienced [i][u]true[/u][/i] holy laughter.

As I said, we can ALL be deceived, even the most Godly of us.

Often we open ourselves to spiritual abuse because we are vulnerable in a particular area, maybe simply because we are innocent, (as Eve was when the Serpent came to her) not because we are in deliberate sin.

Yes, the Lord can protect us, but if we shut our ears to His warnings He may allow us to go our own way, so we can learn from it, and walk more carefully before Him.

My point is you Will not be deceived if you belong to Jesus and [i][u]walk in the spirit[/u][/i].
Do any of us walk in the Spirit [i][b]all[/b][/i] the time? If, for some reason we don't then we WILL be deceived - unless the Lord has mercy and protects us.

I know because I was deceived more than once, when I [u]thought[/u] I was walking in the Spirit. One of them was a very serious deception - involvement with a man who was beginning what was basically a cult. It was nothing to do with wof or holy laughter etc, and I'd been a "keen" Christian for over 16 years then, and "Spirit filled" for more than half that time.

But I still became deceived!

Yet all the time I [i]thought[/i] I was seeking the Lord with my whole heart and seeking to walk in the Spirit.

The Lord saw my heart and rescued me from each of these things in due time. And each time He revealed exactly what it was in my heart that had caused the vulnerability to deception.

I for one am not judging you, because of having learnt the hard way how easy it is to be deceived.

But please, Brother listen, and [b][u]ask the Lord about it[/u][/b]. It's SAFE to do that, even if He shows you what you don't want to know! (Been there, done that!)

Instead of reacting, go calmly before HIM and let Him show you about these things.

Blessings

Jeannette

L
Lotis

Is there anything unholy about laughing? What about my previous question, if those people were all oppressed by the devil, depressed and suicidal, and God came down and gave them Joy, does that make him any less Holy and Awesome? Or does it prove he is Just and Kind? I live a holy life, but am also fun, and funny. I certainly think there are false things going around and probably false "laughter" but really the question becomes, is it always false? Because something tells me no matter what clip I showed, if people were laughing like that, regardless of what I said happened before or after, regardless of the fruit of the manifestation, most would be hard pressed to say anything but "Not God" in one form or another. I need joy, the Joy of the Lord is my strength. I couldn't make it without it. If you know of some awesome substitute for the joy of the Lord, let me know, but I've yet to find one that doesn't leave me empty.

S
sermonindex

But you psychological Christians with theories about the Holy Spirit ..... It is easy to decieve you because you approach spiritual things with your intellectual abilities.
What do you think you will do when the next wave "hits"
You will stand on the sidelines and Judge spiritual things with your intellect.

Some of us haven't stood on the sidelines in any way.

Forgetting what others have posted for the moment, could you tell me in what way, exactly I have done any intellectual judging of these things?

Read Wigglesworth and you will find out in a hurry you will never be able to guess what is next. He relied on the Inward voice to direct him. His mind would say no to the prompting of God [just like you and me]
But when he obeyed God miracles happened.NOT A MIND , PSYCHE thing!
I've read a couple of books by Smith Wigglesworth, and found them a blessing and a challenge.

When you minister in the spirit under the unction of the Holy Spirit, you become "a different person". You can see things and hear things about the person and the Holy Spirit tells you what to do. Just like Wiggleswworth!
LOOK- I WANT THE GIFTS AND I WANT THE GIVER. It is as if this forum says "one or the other but not both".
I want the TRUE gifts and the TRUE Giver, not the counterfeit. Who's saying "one or the other but not both"? I certainly am not!

in Him

Jeannette

H
hmmhmm

Another Gospel

Satan is not an initiator but an imitator. God has an only begotten Son-the Lord Jesus, so has Satan-"the son of Perdition" (2 Thess.2:3). There is a Holy Trinity, and there is likewise a Trinity of Evil (Rev. 20:10). Do we read of the "children of God," so also we read of "the children of the wicked one" ( Matthew 13:38). Does God work in the former both to will and to do of His good pleasure, then we are told that Satan is "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph 2:2). Is there a "mystery of godliness" (1 Tim. 3:16), so also is there a "mystery of iniquity" (2 Thess 2:7). Are we told that God by His angels "seals" His servants in their foreheads (Rev 7:3), so also we learn that Satan by his agents sets a mark in the foreheads of his devotees (Rev. 13:16). Are we told that "the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God" (1 Cor. 2:10), then Satan also provides his "deep things" (Greek-Rev. 2:24). Did Christ perform miracles, so also can Satan (2 Thess. 2:9). Is Christ seated upon a throne, so is Satan (Greek-Rev. 2:13). Has Christ a Church, then Satan has his "synagogue" (Rev 2:9). Is Christ the Light of the world, then so is Satan himself "transformed into an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14). Did Christ appoint "apostles," then Satan has his apostles, too (2 Cor. 11:13). And this leads us to consider: "The Gospel of Satan."

Satan is the arch-counterfeiter. The Devil is now busy at work in the same field in which the Lord sowed the good seed. He is seeking to prevent the growth of the wheat by another plant, the tares, which closely resembles the wheat in appearance. In a word, by a process of imitation he is aiming to neutralize the Work of Christ. Therefore, as Christ has a Gospel, Satan has a gospel too; the latter being a clever counterfeit of the former. So closely does the gospel of Satan resemble that which it parodies, multitudes of the unsaved are deceived by it.

It is to this gospel of Satan the apostle refers when he says to the Galatians, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the Gospel of Christ" (Gal. 1:6,7). This false gospel was being heralded even in the days of the apostle, and a most awful curse was called down upon those who preached it. The apostle continues, "But though we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." By the help of God we shall now endeavor to expound, or rather, expose this false gospel.

The gospel of Satan is not a system of revolutionary principles, nor yet a program of anarchy. It does not promote strife and war, but aims at peace and unity. It seeks not to set the mother against her daughter nor the father against his son, but fosters the fraternal spirit whereby the human race is regarded as one great "brotherhood." It does not seek to drag down the natural man, but to improve and uplift him. It advocates education and cultivation and appeals to "the best that is within - It aims to make this world such a comfortable and congenial habitat that Christ’s absence from it will not be felt and God will not be needed. It endeavors to occupy man so much with this world that he has no time or inclination to think of the world to come. It propagates the principles of self-sacrifice, charity and benevolence, and teaches us to live for the good of others, and to be kind to all. It appeals strongly to the carnal mind and is popular with the masses, because it ignores the solemn facts that by nature man is a fallen creature, alienated from the life of God, and dead in trespasses and sins, and that his only hope lies in being born again.

In contradistinction to the Gospel of Christ, the gospel of Satan teaches salvation by works. It inculcates justification before God on the ground of human merits. Its sacramental phrase is "Be good and do good"; but it fails to recognize that in the flesh there dwelleth no good thing. It announces salvation by character, which reverses the order of God’s Word—character by, as the fruit of, salvation. Its various ramifications and organizations are manifold. Temperance, Reform Movements, "Christian Socialist Leagues," Ethical Culture Societies, "Peace Congresses" are all employed (perhaps unconsciously) in proclaiming this gospel of Satan—salvation by works. The pledge card is substituted for Christ; social purity for individual regeneration, and politics and philosophy, for doctrine and godliness. The cultivation of the old man is considered more practical than the creation of a new man in Christ Jesus; whilst universal peace is looked for apart from the interposition and return of the Prince of Peace.

The apostles of Satan are not saloon-keepers and white-slave traffickers, but are for the most part ordained ministers. Thousands of those who occupy our modern pulpits are no longer engaged in presenting the fundamentals of the Christian Faith, but have turned aside from the Truth and have given heed unto fables. Instead of magnifying the enormity of sin and setting forth its eternal consequences, they minimize it by declaring that sin is merely ignorance or the absence of good. Instead of warning their hearers to "flee from the wrath to come" they make God a liar by declaring that He is too loving and merciful to send any of His own creatures to eternal torment. Instead of declaring that "without shedding of blood is no remission," they merely hold up Christ as the great Exemplar and exhort their hearers to "follow in His steps." Of them it must be said, "For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" (Rom. 10:3). Their message may sound very plausible and their aim appear very praiseworthy, yet we read of them—"for such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves (imitating) into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore, it is no great thing [not to be wondered at] if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

In addition to the fact that today hundreds of churches are without a leader who faithfully declares the whole counsel of God and presents His way of salvation, we also have to face the additional fact that the majority of people in these churches are very unlikely to learn the Truth themselves. The family altar, where a portion of God’s Word was wont to be read daily is now, even in the homes of nominal Christians, largely a thing of the past. The Bible is not expounded in the pulpit and it is not read in the pew. The demands of this rushing age are so numerous, that multitudes have little time and still less inclination to make preparation for the meeting with God. Hence the majority who are too indolent to search for themselves, are left at the mercy of those whom they pay to search for them; many of whom betray their trust by studying and expounding economic and social problems rather than the Oracles of God.

In Proverbs 14:12 we read, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death." This "way" which ends in" death" is the Devil’s Delusion—the gospel of Satan—a way of salvation by human attainment. It is a way which "seemeth right," that is to say, it is presented in such a plausible way that it appeals to the natural man: it is set forth in such a subtle and attractive manner, that it commends itself to the intelligence of its hearers. By virtue of the fact that it appropriates to itself religious terminology, sometimes appeals to the Bible for its support (whenever this suits its purpose), holds up before men lofty ideals, and is proclaimed by those who have graduated from our theological institutions, countless multitudes are decoyed and deceived by it.

The success of an illegitimate coiner depends largely upon how closely the counterfeit resembles the genuine article. Heresy is not so much the total denial of the truth as a perversion of it. That is why half a lie is always more dangerous than a complete repudiation. Hence when the Father of Lies enters the pulpit it is not his custom to flatly deny the fundamental truths of Christianity, rather does he tacitly acknowledge them, and then proceed to give an erroneous interpretation and a false application. For example: he would not be so foolish as to boldly announce his disbelief in a personal God; he takes His existence for granted and then gives a false description of His character. He announces that God is the spiritual Father of all men, when the Scriptures plainly tell us that we are "the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:26), and that "as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God" (John 1:12). Further, he declares that God is far too merciful to ever send any member of the human race to Hell, when God Himself has said, "Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15). Again; Satan would not be so foolish as to ignore the central figure of human history—the Lord Jesus Christ; on the contrary, his gospel acknowledges Him to be the best man that ever lived. Attention is drawn to His deeds of compassion and works of mercy, the beauty of His character and the sublimity of His teaching. His life is eulogized, but His vicarious Death is ignored, the all-important atoning work of the cross is never mentioned, whilst His triumphant and bodily resurrection from the grave is regarded as one of the credulities of a superstitious age. It is a bloodless gospel, and presents a crossless Christ, who is received not as God manifest in the flesh, but merely as the Ideal Man.

In 2 Corinthians 4:3 we have a scripture which sheds much light upon our present theme. There we are told, "if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God should shine unto them." He blinds the minds of unbelievers through hiding the light of the Gospel of Christ, and he does this by substituting his own gospel. Appropriately is he designated "The Devil and Satan which deceiveth the whole world" (Rev. 12:9). In merely appealing to "the best that is within man," and in simply exhorting him to "lead a nobler life" there is afforded a general platform upon which those of every shade of opinion can unite and proclaim this common message.

Again we quote Proverbs 14:12—"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." It has been said with considerable truth that the way to Hell is paved with good intentions. There will be many in the Lake of Fire who commended life with good intentions, honest resolutions and exalted ideals—those who were just in their dealings, fair in their transactions and charitable in all their ways; men who prided themselves in their integrity but who sought to justify themselves before God by their own righteousness; men who were moral, merciful and magnanimous, but who never saw themselves as guilty, lost, hell-deserving sinners needing a Saviour. Such is the way which "seemeth right." Such is the way that commends itself to the carnal mind and recommends itself to multitudes of deluded ones today. The Devil’s Delusion is that we can be saved by our own works, and justified by our own deeds; whereas, God tells us in His Word : "By grace are ye saved through faith. ..not of works lest any man should boast." And again, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us."

A few years ago the writer became acquainted with one who was a lay preacher and an enthusiastic "Christian worker." For over seven years this friend had been engaged in public preaching and religious activities, but from certain expressions and phrases he used, the writer doubted whether this friend was a "born again" man. When we began to question him, it was found that he was very imperfectly acquainted with the Scriptures and had only the vaguest conception of Christ’s Work for sinners. For a time we sought to present the way of salvation in a simple and impersonal manner and to encourage our friend to study the Word for himself, in the hope that if he were still unsaved God would be pleased to reveal the Saviour he needed.

One night to our joy, the one who had been preaching the Gospel (?) for several years, confessed that he had found Christ only the previous night. He acknowledged (to use his own words) that he had been presenting "the Christ ideal" but not the Christ of the Cross. The writer believes there are thousands like this preacher who, perhaps, have been brought up in Sunday School, taught about the birth, life, and teachings of Jesus Christ, who believe in the historicity of His person, who spasmodically endeavor to practice His precepts, and who think that that is all that is necessary for their salvation. Frequently, this class when they reach manhood go out into the world, encounter the attacks of atheists and infidels and are told that such a person as Jesus of Nazareth never lived. But the impressions of early days cannot be easily erased, and they remain steadfast in their declaration that they "believe in Jesus Christ." Yet, when their faith is examined, only too often it is found that though they believe many things about Jesus Christ they do not really believe in him. They believe with the head that such a person lived (and, because they believe this imagine that therefore they are saved), but they have never thrown down the weapons of their warfare against Him, yielded themselves to Him, nor truly believed with their heart in Him.

The bare acceptance of an orthodox doctrine about the person of Christ without the heart being won by Him and the life devoted to Him, is another phase of that way "which seemeth right unto a man" but the end thereof are "the ways of death." A mere intellectual assent to the reality of Christ’s person, and which goes no further, is another phase of the way which "seemeth right unto a man" but of which the end thereof "are the ways of death," or, in other words, is another aspect of the gospel of Satan.

And now, where do you stand? Are you in the way which "seemeth right," but which ends in death; or, are you in the Narrow Way which leadeth unto life? Have you truly forsaken the Broad Road which leadeth to death? Has the love of Christ created in your heart a hatred and horror of all that is displeasing to Him? Are you desirous that he should "reign over" you? (Luke 19:14). Are you relying wholly on His righteousness and blood for your acceptance with God?

Those who are trusting to an outward form of godliness, such as baptism or "confirmation!" those who are religious because it is considered a mark of respectability; those who attend some Church or Chapel because it is the fashion to do so; and, those who unite with some Denomination because they suppose that such a step will enable them to become Christians, are in the way which "ends in death"—death spiritual and eternal. However pure our motives, however noble our intentions, however well-meaning our purposes, however sincere our endeavors, God will not acknowledge us as His sons, until we accept His Son.

A yet more specious form of Satan’s gospel is to move preachers to present the atoning sacrifice of Christ and then tell their hearers that all God requires from them is to "believe" in His Son. Thereby thousands of impenitent souls are deluded into thinking they have been saved. But Christ said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). To "repent" is to hate sin, to sorrow over it, to turn from it. It is the result of the Spirits making the heart contrite before God. None except a broken heart can savingly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, thousands are deceived into supposing that they have "accepted Christ" as their "personal Saviour," who have not first received Him as their LORD. The Son of God did not come here to save His people in their sin, but "from their sins" (Matthew 1:21). To be saved from sins, is to be saved from ignoring and despising the authority of God, it is to abandon the course of self-will and self-pleasing, it is to "forsake our way" (Isa. 55:7). It is to surrender to God’s authority, to yield to His dominion, to give ourselves over to be ruled by Him. The one who has never taken Christ’s "yoke" upon him, who is not truly and diligently seeking to please Him in all the details of life, and yet supposes that he is "resting on the Finished Work of Christ" is deluded by the Devil.

In the seventh chapter of Matthew there are two scriptures which give us approximate results of Christ’s Gospel and Satan s counterfeit. First, in verses 13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Second; in verses 22-23, "Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied [preached] in Thy name? and in Thy name cast out demons, and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Yes, my reader, it is possible to work in the name of Christ, and even to preach in his name, and though the world knows us, the Church knows us, yet to be unknown to the Lord! How necessary is it then to find out where we really are; to examine ourselves and see whether we be in the faith; to measure ourselves by the Word of God and see if we are being deceived by our subtle Enemy; to find out whether we are building our house upon the sand, or whether it is erected on the Rock which is Jesus Christ. May the Holy Spirit search our hearts, break our wills, slay our enmity against God, work in us a deep and true repentance, and direct our gaze to the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

A.W Pink

S
sermonindex


Lotis wrote:
Is there anything unholy about laughing? What about my previous question, if those people were all oppressed by the devil, depressed and suicidal, and God came down and gave them Joy, does that make him any less Holy and Awesome? Or does it prove he is Just and Kind?
That's the point, WAS it God, and WAS it HIS joy???

I live a holy life, but am also fun, and funny.
No one is disputing it! Some here who warn against the counterfeit can also be full of fun!
I certainly think there are false things going around and probably false "laughter" but really the question becomes, is it always false?
It's not ALWAYS false. There IS such a thing as holy laughter, and it is wonderful. But we need to be able to DISCERN, as I said before. If you can't discern the difference between Kenneth Copeland and Smith Wigglesworth.... :-? But there was a time when I couldn't either.

As I said, we can all be deceived.

I need joy, the Joy of the Lord is my strength. I couldn't make it without it. If you know of some awesome substitute for the joy of the Lord, let me know, but I've yet to find one that doesn't leave me empty.
So do we all - the JOY OF [i]THE LORD[/i] is what we need, not a counterfeit that does indeed leave many people empty, and sometimes damaged spiritually.

Ask Krispy for his testimony re his former deep involvement in these things. It didn't put him off the real thing though.

I only ever skirted the edges of the wof and holy laughter thing, though did experience the laughing and falling down a couple of times. Enough to realise (later) that much of it wasn't of God after all. The genuine spontaneous joy of the Spirit is different (though it can feel superficially the same) - and you don't need anyone laying hands on you either!

There was one woman's conference I attended, (where "holy laughter" and other manifestations also occurred) where the speaker seemed like one of those store signs that turn in the wind - one side black, one side white. She appeared genuine and lovely, but there was something wrong that I caught glimpses of - the dark side appearing suddenly then disappearing again. It happened so fast that it was difficult to be sure at first. It was like a rat that kept peeping out of its hole, then quickly withdrawing.

That woman was obviously demonised, yet she was the main speaker at a Christian conference!

As I said, we can ALL be deceived, even the most Godly of us. I have no doubt that the leader of that woman's movement was a Godly person, yet she didn't discern this particular thing.


Yours in Him who is our true JOY


Jeannette

H
hmmhmm

The Lord says, "Come now, and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18. Here are some of my concerns about "holy" laughter and "the laughing revival."

(1) There is no biblical precedent for "holy" laughter.

Laughter is rarely mentioned in the Bible. Yet, when it is, the Bible seems to make more of a case for holy sorrow than for "holy" laughter. Scripture supports Solomon's contention that "sorrow is better than laughter." It does not support the present "laughing revival."

(2) Substituting the word joy for laughter is a non sequitur. It is inaccurate and misleading.

There is no scriptural authority for equating biblical references to joy with the involuntary manifestations of "holy" laughter. Just because there are insufficient Bible texts to make the case for "holy" laughter, it does not follow that you can simply redefine the word laughter by substituting the word joy.

(3) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, discuss the need to "test the spirits."

The Bible warns us that not every supernatural manifestation is necessarily from God. 1 John 4:1 says, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Charles and Francis Hunter write in their book Holy Laughter, "Once you begin to walk in the supernatural you really have to be ready for anything and everything and never question the way God does it!" (p.65)

(4) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, talk about the Spirit's express warning that in the latter times some people will be supernaturally seduced by deceptive evil spirits into following them and not the one true God.

1 Timothy 4: warns, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."

(5) "Holy" laughter advocates rarely, if ever, talk about the Bible's warnings of false prophets who come in the name of Jesus but bring with them "another spirit." 2 Corinthians 11:4 says, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

(6) Many laughter advocates condescendingly discourage and even openly intimidate sincere Christians who question the "laughing revival."

According to the August Charisma article, Rodney Howard-Browne "disparages" people who "try to apply theological tests" to what he does. The Hunters' book Holy Laughter refers to skeptics as God's "frozen chosen." Mona Johnian writes, "skeptics, hesitaters and procrastinators do not get anointed." She warns "that any person or church that wavered could be eliminated."

(7) Rodney Howard-Browne's prayer to God just prior to his "anointing" ("either you come down here and touch me or I'll come up there and touch you") was unscriptural.

Howard-Browne's prayer was the essence "my will be done." It was not "thy will be done," as taught by Jesus in scripture. Why should we automatically assume that it was God who answered his prayer?

(8) "Holy" laughter advocates, in talking about "signs and wonders," rarely, if ever, mention the Bible's many warnings about deceptive signs and wonders.

In Matthew 16:4 Jesus warns, "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." In Matthew 24:24 JESUS says, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." In 2 Thess. 2:9 the apostle Paul warns of the coming Antichrist, "even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

(9) "Holy" laughter advocates seem to lay hands on almost everybody. The Bible specifically warns against this.

The eighth chapter of Acts describes how the disciples would not lay hands on Simon, a baptized believer, even though he desperately wanted the gift of the Holy Ghost, because his heart was "not right in the sight of God." 1 Timothy 5:22 warns us to "lay hands suddenly on no man." Yet "holy" laughter is passed on from person to person without so much as a second thought.

(10) "Holy laughter advocates blatantly disregard the biblical admonition that things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:40 says, "Let all things be done decently and in order." Mona Johnian in her book Fresh Anointing says, "decently and in order! We must do things decently and in order. The Bible itself commands it, cry those who are frightened by that which is beyond traditional order" (p. 35). She advises her readers to "break with tradition" (p.45).

(11) The chaos and confusion that usually characterizes the "laughing revival: contradicts the Bible's description of the Person of God.

1 Corinthians 14:33 states, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

(12) Laughter advocates rarely if ever, discuss the well documented demonic deceptions that have manifested in past revivals.

To combat the deception that arose during the Welsh revival at the turn of this century authors Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts wrote "War on the Saints: a disclosure of the deceptive strategies used by evil spirits against God's people." Both were very involved with the revival and were extremely concerned about the demonic manifestations that began to dominate their meetings. The forward to War on the Saints warns of "the grave dangers that beset the path of uninformed enthusiasm."

(13) A number of Christians have experienced the equivalent of "holy" laughter when they were in the New Age.

Indian Guru Bhagvhan Shree Rajneesh was affectionately known by his followers as the "divine drunkard" because he was reputed to have drunk so deeply from the well of the "Divine." As a former follower of Rajneesh I met hundreds of Sannyasins who had flown to India "to drink" from "Bhagwan's wine." When followers were physically touched by Rajneesh, or even if they were merely in his presence, they would often experience feelings of great exhilaration and joy. Disciples of Swami Baba Muktananda would often manifest uncontrollable laughter after receiving Shaktipat (physical contact) from the guru.

(14) The "laughing revival" could one day merge with what the New Age calls the coming day of "planetary Pentecost."

Barbara Marx Hubbard, (revered New Age leader and a 1984 Democratic nominee for the Vice Presidency of the United States), writes in her book, Teachings from the Inner Christ, how the human race will soon experience a day of "Planetary Pentecost." Hubbard, claiming to be in contact with "Christ," writes: "the Planetary Smile is another name for the Planetary Pentecost. When enough of us share a common thought of our oneness with God, Spirit will be poured out on all flesh paying attention" (p.79). In her book The Revelation, Hubbard says "Christ," in describing the planetary smile, said: "an uncontrollable joy will ripple through the thinking layer of the earth. The co-creative systems, which are lying psychologically dormant in humanity will be activated. From within, all sensitive persons will feel the joy of the force, flooding their systems with love and attraction...as this joy flashes through the nervous systems of the most sensitive peoples on earth, it will create a psycho magnetic field of empathy, which will align the next wave of people in synchrony, everywhere on Earth. This massive, sudden empathic alignment will cause a shift in the consciousness of Earth" (p. 234-235). Writing in Happy Birth Day Planet Earth, Hubbard repeats what she heard from "Christ." He said, "as the planetary smile ripples through the nervous systems of earth, and the instant of co-operation begins, and empathy floods the feelings of the whole body of Earth, separation is overcome, and I appear to all of you at once (p. 10-11).

The controversy over "holy" laughter is already splitting congregations and causing deep divisions in the body of Christ. And while many people have already taken sides, there are many more who are still trying to figure out just what is going on. Is this really a move of God, or is this the kind of deception the Bible warns about in Matthew 24, 1 Timothy 4:1, and in the second chapter of Thessalonians?

Unity is indeed the heartfelt desire of every sincere Christian (Psalm 133:1). But the Bible warns of massive deception that will come at the end and in Christ's name. Before the Church--in the name of unity--free falls into a worldwide "laughing revival," we had better be sure what it is we are uniting with.

In reflecting on "holy" laughter during these very troubled times, I recalled a music special I had seen on television a number of years ago. In the midst of an otherwise polite Hollywood type crowd, a male vocalist sang straight faced and sober into the teeth of their celebration. His words were electric and piercing, and they seemed to hang in the air. He sang, "you're laughing now, but you should be praying. You're in the midnight hour of your life."

Some Examples of Holy Laughter in Other Religions

1) Kundalini Energy is typically described as a powerful energy source lying dormant in the form of a coiled serpent at the base of the human spine. When freed it reputedly has the capacity to effect great physical healings. Christina and Stanislov Grof, New Age authors of the book The Stormy Search for the Self, describe how the awakening of Kundalini energy can be triggered by an advanced spiritual teacher or guru. And how the awakening can bring up memories of past psychological traumas. The Grofs state that "individuals involved in this process might find it difficult to control their behavior; during power rushes of Kundalini energy, they often emit various involuntary sounds, and their bodies move in strange and unexpected patterns. Among the most common manifestations . . . are unmotivated and unnatural laughter or crying, talking tongues . . . and imitating a variety of animal sounds and movements" (p. 78-79). The Grofs state that "careful study of the manifestations of Kundalini awakening confirm that this process, although sometimes very intense and shattering, is essentially healing."

Bwagwhan Shree Rajneesh, the former Oregon guru tells one of his followers in his book, Dance Your Way To God, "just be joyful . . . God is not serious . . . this world cannot fit with a theological god . . . so let this be your constant reminder - that you have to dance your way to God, to laugh your way to God" (p. 229). Often referred to as being "drunk on the divine," Rajneesh encouraged his followers to come and "drink" from him. Bahgvan's spiritual "wine" was often passed along with a single touch to the head. Many of his Sannyasins would fall to the floor in ecstasy after their encounters with Rajneesh.

Ramakrishna, an Indian saint, "daily went into 'samahdi,' a trance in which one involuntarily falls down unconscious and enters a rapturous state of super-conscious bliss (ananda), complete with beautiful visions and often involving astral projection. These states could last anywhere from a few minutes to several days and were often accompanied by uncontrollable laughter or weeping. He could send others into this state with a single touch to the head or chest" (unpublished article by John Rice on file at SCP).

Swami Baba Muktanada would transfer what was called "guru's grace" to his followers through Shaktipat (physical touch). This "grace" triggered the gradual awakening of the Kundalini which in turn produced various physical and emotional manifestations. Manifestations included uncontrollable laughing, roaring, barking, hissing, crying, shaking, etc. Some devotees became mute or unconscious. Many felt themselves being infused with feelings of great joy and peace and love. At other times the "fire" of Kundalini was so overwhelming they would find themselves involuntarily hyperventilating to cool themselves down (Per former Muktananda follower Joy Smith).

2) African Kung Bushmen of the Kalahari. The Grofs, in their book The Stormy Search For The Self , also cite an interesting parallel between the Kundalini awakening and the trance dance of the African Kung bushmen. During rituals the bushmen “enter a profound altered state of consciousness associated with the release of powerful emotions such as anger, anxiety, and fear. They are often unable to maintain an upright position and are overcome by violent shaking. Following these dramatic experiences, they typically enter a state of ecstatic rapture. According to the bushmen tradition, the dance releases from the base of the spine a cosmic healing force called ntum or ‘medicine.’ This is then passed by direct physical contact from one person to another.”

3) Qigong (ancient Chinese practice) Yan Xin, a Chinese Qigong master known to most of the over one billion people in China, gave a talk in San Francisco in 1991. Seventeen hundred devotees, most of them Chinese, showed up at the Masonic auditorium to listen to Yan. The San Francisco Chronicle on 5/16/91 reported that "minutes into his talk, several began experiencing what Yan Xin calls spontaneous movements." The Chronicle reporter said that "before long, the scene resembled a Pentecostal prayer meeting with many people waving their arms and making unintelligible sounds." Yan told his audience, "Those who are sensitive might start having some strong physical sensations - or start laughing or crying. Don't worry. This is quite normal." The article said that "since 1985, when a Qigong revival started sweeping China, 50 to 60 million Chinese have gone to see Yan."

4) Subud. According to The Encyclopedia of American Religions by J. Gordon Melton, the central element of the Subud faith is the practice of "latihan." Latihan is the way one surrenders to the power of God. It is a group process. The Encyclopedia says, "the latihan proper is a time of moving the consciousness beyond mind and desire and allowing the power to enter and do its work. . . . often accompanying the spontaneous period are various body movements and vocal manifestations - cries, moans, laughter and singing. These occur in the voluntary surrender of the self to the power. During this time, people report sensations of love and freedom and often, healings. All reach a higher level of consciousness"


[url=http://www.discernment-ministries.org/Holy_Laughter.htm]Source: Warren Smith[/url]

S
sermonindex

hmmhmm, thanks for sharing this info.

S
sermonindex


Corey_H wrote:
hmmhmm, thanks for sharing this info.
Yes, very enlightening. Thanks brother

Jeannette

L
LoveHim

dear lotis,

i guess my question to you is " what fruit is the holy laughter producing?" i am not asking sarcastically because i have never seen it nor heard it personally. my wife encountered it and it was scary and out of place to her. it did not glorify the Lord in her eyes..

many people are chasing after "more of the Lord" and that usually means "Him" doing something extraordinary in the physical realm (laughing, barking, falling). i have not personally seen these in my life, but i have often wondered what the true fruit of these things are??

i definitely want the Lord to move in my life, but it better result in deeper devotion to Christ and deeper love for Him.

just some thoughts.

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
I read the last part of the sermon by wigglesworth on SI home page.Read the last 2 paragraphs. You will see the man thet seeks the fullness of God seeks the highest devotion to God.
You erroneously think that a man that goes after thee gifts and annointing of God will take the "low" road and miss God or become messed up.
Actually just the opposite is true. Once saved we should seek every blessing and empowerment heaven has to offer. You come up with every arrgument immaginable to keep the church in its current powerless state.
David
Hi yet again David ;-)

You erroneously think that a man that goes after the gifts and annointing of God will take the "low" road and miss God or become messed up.
Who is thinking that????

There are some on SI who don't believe that spiritual gifts are for today, but that isn't quite what is being discussed. The important question, in any particular ministry or meeting, is: Is this manifestation of God or not? And: "How can we tell what spirit is operating here? Hmmmm has put some guidelines on this.

James 4:2-3 is relevant, as it speaks of the two opposite errors we can fall into, refusing to seek God's blessing at all, as you say, and asking wrongly, which you seem to think is impossible for a Christian to do, but is sadly all too common:

[i][color=000099]2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. 3Yet [u]you do not have because you do not ask[/u]. 3 You ask and do not receive, [u]because you ask amiss[/u], that you may spend it on your pleasures. [/color][/i]

You see some of us as refusing the good gifts of God. And you could be right, but that isn't the case with all of us.

[i][u]The opposite error[/u][/i], which is actually the topic here, is if anything more damaging, even dangerous. Anyone who seeks power and blessing for its own sake, including the power and blessing of God, may end up being taken over by something that is not of God.

Like King Saul who wouldn't obey the Lord. God stopped speaking to him (or blessing him) so, instead of repenting, he consulted a medium.

I am convinced that some of the "big name" Christians these days have opened themselves to demonic forces in their lust for power, money, success and influence, including a high status as "men of God".

Not all have done this, but some of the best known obviously have - and sold their souls in the process.

The tragedy is that they are dragging down so many innocent souls with them.

in Him

Jeannette

S
sermonindex


LoveHim wrote:
dear lotis,

i guess my question to you is " what fruit is the holy laughter producing?" i am not asking sarcastically because i have never seen it nor heard it personally. my wife encountered it and it was scary and out of place to her. it did not glorify the Lord in her eyes..

many people are chasing after "more of the Lord" and that usually means "Him" doing something extraordinary in the physical realm (laughing, barking, falling). i have not personally seen these in my life, but i have often wondered what the true fruit of these things are??

i definitely want the Lord to move in my life, but it better result in deeper devotion to Christ and deeper love for Him.

Amen brother! With that attitude you are sure to go on in Him. Seek and you shall find, and it WILL surely be of God, not counterfeit.


Jeannette

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
I read the last part of the sermon by wigglesworth on SI home page.Read the last 2 paragraphs. You will see the man thet seeks the fullness of God seeks the highest devotion to God.
Which one is that? I couldn't find it on that page. Maybe you have the link or title?

Thanks

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

Hmmhmmm, thank you for this...

(7) Rodney Howard-Browne's prayer to God just prior to his "anointing" ("either you come down here and touch me or I'll come up there and touch you") was unscriptural.

Howard-Browne's prayer was the essence "my will be done." It was not "thy will be done," as taught by Jesus in scripture. Why should we automatically assume that it was God who answered his prayer?

This reminds me of what I've seen in these kinds of minisries, that when we challenge God 'IN THE FLESH' we'll get an answer 'from the flesh.' We reap what we sow.

Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; Ezek 14.4

Wow, I forgot all about this Scripture... that God will answer us according to the idols of our heart.

2 Thess 2.9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thess 2.10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thess 2.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thess 2.12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We need to seek God and ask Him if we have any idols in our heart and ask for more of the love of the Truth in us!!!

God bless you all!!!!

L
LoveHim

dear littlegift,

thank you dear sister. i have been appreciating your openness in talking about this subject. thanks for the different posts..

C
Compton

Thanks for the excellent info Hmmmhmmm

Substituting the word joy for laughter is a non sequitur.

There are many false substitutions for the Fruit of the Spirit afoot today. Joy is better understood, in my opinion, as a virtue of Godly character, while laughter is a mere emotional expression touching nothing inwardly in the heart.

There are many things I honestly do not fully understand about spiritual warfare. (I'm also thinking of the present controversy in the Meth Thread.)One thing I am confident of saying though is that any spiritual dealings the Lord would have for us is aimed at our character. Spiritual warfare that does not adress our inward man is some type of spirit craft akin to voodoo or some other mysterious mojo. (Just as spiritual knowledge that does not touch our character is closer to gnostic pride then true faith in Christ.)

This is how I understand the admonition Resist the devil and he will flee from you. We resist the devil along the lines of our repentance and not along the lines of some secret mystical or supernatural technique that does not deal with our character. (To be more specific, the character of Christ expressed though us in the place of the old man.)

Many leaders today talk of light but they do not truly walk in this light. From the beginning they have preached a false hope that promises deliverance from hell without repenting of carnality and sin. They love the darkness, including those earthly rewards that come from preaching the light! Because they speak of light they are treated as spiritual mentors. But inwardly and outwardly they are unwilling to be judged by God or man, and their corruption goes unrepented for. This opens them to many distortions and perversions such as holy laughter.

Many today boast of knowing about spiritual warfare techniques. In such a darkened age I am wary of the abundance of this claim in the church today. We dare not conduct spiritual warfare manuevers for demonic influences to leave us without wanting first to leave the darkness these demons dwell in. For instance, let not a greedy man think that removing the "spirit of poverty" will enable him to find wealth. The real issue is the greed and idolatry itself. You cannot walk in the light with a greedy heart...come against all the spirits of poverty you want, and still the real problem is untouched.

So, for me spiritual warfare that does not deal with the nature of the old man is devilish and dangerous. This is why I believe Holy Laughter is actually a hollow mockery of the Kingdom of God. It is an anti-christ inversion of the Holy Weeping that should be falling the Church today. We read in the past of great revivals, where many people from city to city would fall like mowed grass in the wake of the awakening of their consciences by the holy spirit. Regardless of their age or denomination they were all united with one sorrowful cry. "What must we do to be saved?!"

Because I trust the biblical resemblance of those events and I do not trust the extra-biblical dissemblance of the Holy Laughter movement...I'm holding out for a 'movement' that entails sorrow.

Cautiously and needful for the light of Christ to expose our hearts,

MC

L
letsgetbusy

I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I have to classify that laughter as either Satanic, or put on. I am leaning towards put on. I think their may be some that are influenced, but I think most are just following the leader.

These things said, here are some quotes from "The Supernatural Occurances of John Wesley":

PERHAPS GENUINE CASES OF HOLY LAUGHTER

"July 29, 1759.-...Patty Jenkins was so overwhelmed with the love of God, that she sunk down, and appeared as one in a pleasant sleep, only with her eyes open; yet she had often just strength to utter, with a low voice, ejacutlations of joy and praise; but no words coming up to what she felt, she frequently laughed while she saw his glory...I no sooner sat down by her than the Spirit of God poured the same blessedness into my soul. Hers continued till the time we were to set out for Cockin Hatley. Then her strength was restored in a moment, and we walked together, sixteen in number, singing to the Lord as we went along."
-Works of John Wesley 2:11

DEMONIC INSTANCES OF "HOLY LAUGHTER"

"May 9, 1740.-I was a little surprised at some, who were buffeted of Satan in an unusual manner, by such a spirit of laughter as they could in no wise resist, though it was pain and grief onto them. I could scarce have believed the account they gave me, had I not known the same thing ten or eleven years ago. Part of Sunday my brother and I then used to spend in walking in the meadows and singing psalms. But one day, just as we were beginning to sing, he burst out into a loud laughter. I asked him; if he was distracted; and he began to be very angry, and presently after to laugh as loud as he. Nor could we possibly refrain, though we were ready to tear ourselves in pieces, but we were forced to go home without singing another line."
-Works of John Wesley 1:4

All these things in account, what I see in the video that makes me quickly decide that the laughter is not of God, is the showboat style of throwing people backward with hand motions by the speaker. The laughter by itself, had it been directed toward praising God, would have more convinced me the other way. But what I see is more of a "look at the anointing we have."

It is no different than the expected 'slain in the Spirit' by believers who are 'under the Spirit', when history shows us that those slain in the Spirit were those who were either the unsaved or set against God's supernatural movements.

PS If anyone wants to hear more entries on the subject from Wesley let me know and I will post them, as the above quoted book has references to many holy and unholy manifestations. I just didn't want to go overboard if no one is interested in what he wrote. I just find his opinions extremely interesting.

H
hmmhmm

i can say i experienced joy in the Lord this morning, about 6:00 i was walking to my work, listening in mp3 player a song by [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=13765&commentView=postComment]Doug Tanner[/url] wile waling there and looking up at heaven seing the clouds and the bright blue sky and the sun shining bright and warming my face, singing along to this song i feelt such Joy and laught there for myself, not an uncontrolled chaos kind of laughter, but a wonderful moment of Joy and peace filled me, Praise God!

now i have also experienced the kind of thing seen in the video, only then i was not saved and i was full of different kind of drugs.

satan can imitate most things, and just becuse we add the word "holy" to something does not make it come from God...

P
psalm1

What is funny,no pun intended, is when the skeptic gets the Holy laughtrer. I have personally been in many meetings where holy laughter was present. I first heard about it around 1994 when my mother told me what was happening in her church. She told me of all the people laughing. I told her I thought it was people trying to draw attention to themselves. But DEFINATELY not God. She asked if I would come see for myself. You all are right IT SOUNDS LIKE ITS OFF. But you would have to be there to judge it.Because when i visited her church the powerfull sweep of the Holy Spirit ushered in the Holy Laughter. I was sitting in his presence and it was awesome.I had to apologise to the Lord for judging Him out of my human mind.
Now what are you going to say? There are 2 Holy Spirts? One Good and one bad?
I know my redeemer and I know the presencee of the Holy Ghost. You werent there and you with your mind try to judge spiritual things. I did the same and ended up Judgeing wrong. You make the same mistake.
David

S
sermonindex

Because when i visited her church the powerfull sweep of the Holy Spirit ushered in the Holy Laughter.

I am so sad that this lukewarm church generation is being swept further and further into delusion and closer and closer to the edge of an eternal hell where they will burn with satan and his angels.

If it were the Holy Spirit sir, people would be on their faces crushed over there compromise, secret sin, and worldliness, cying out to God for mercy and deliverenace.

John 16
8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

C
Compton

You werent there and you with your mind try to judge spiritual things.

Brother, no doubt you are most sincere. Yet, the contradiction in your statement is obvious. Do not assume that your first person experience with this phenomena is a sure form of authentication of it's Godliness.

Now no one here doubts that the laughter is real enough or of a spirit. What we do not believe is that this laughter movement, on the whole, is evidence of the Holy Spirit. You say we judge with our minds? You yourself admit you are judging simply by your own first person contact with this thing. We look to scripture for evidence and precedent, while you point to your experience.

Who is judging with their minds?

Dear brother, we need to look out for each other!

MC

P
psalm1

Littlegift, I read your posts and understand where you are coming from. I cant prove ANYONE wrong that is Against holy laughter but this is where I stand. - I would prob. agree with you if I hadnt been there.
I Have been to times square church abut 18 times in the early 90's to be in the revival at Daaves church. It was awessone! The reason i went [and spent thousands on travel] is because I thought the church was in the great apostacy. And I believed IN MY MIND that God had left the church.Well we got Daves news letter and he said when the wworship started the holy spirit would come in like a wind.
Well, I had to go see this wind. So that started many many trips to new york.I met dave and mr conlan.
About the wind....It was like Dave said. I was so disarmed when the worship started I opened my mouth to worship and nothing came out. I could not speak. I wanted to worship but I was so moved by the overpowering presence of God . I could not "run" with those people.
That revival at times square church was awesome. It was an awesome ,life changing time of my life. I met beautiful Beautiful people in Daves church.To this day I believe it changed my life.. I have prob. the only videos of this great revival.
My life has changed by the transforming and continueing work of God in my life. He is so beautiful and awesome and He is so precious. There is nothing more precious than our walk with God. And right behind that is his people. The church is awesome and I love Gods people.
But I used to hate Gods people. I truly dont know where i would be If it werent for these last days revivals. Daves', The laughing revival,The brownsville revival, And the charasmatic revival of the 70s. I have spent years in all of these revivals and they all have the same theme ......Holy ghost and Jesus
OH, and people acting weird.
By the way, I saw some strange stuff at Daves church.
Ahhh, I love it. What is revival without the bizzare.Daves revival had his share of the bizare
Maybe his was a false revival.?Remember it was like the others in that it didnt last.
....David

J
JaySaved

just becuse we add the word "holy" to something does not make it come from God...

Well said brother. Brothers and sisters we must return to the Word. Let us renew our minds and leave this trivial emotionalism behind. I watched the Copeland/Hagin laughfest and it is not from God. The early church did not 'holy laugh' in their meetings, they searched the scriptures, they met needs, they glorified God.

Remember, Jesus said the wolves will be in sheep's clothing.
Also remember 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."

S
sermonindex

What is revival without the bizzare.Daves revival had his share of the bizare
Maybe his was a false revival.?Remember it was like the others in that it didnt last.

Ahh. yet it did and does last... God has used those recorded sermons to radically and personally revive me (and others) and put me on the streets to work with the drug addicts, prostitutes and gang members.

The revival goes on, and there is no [un]holy laughter, only repentance, brokeness and heart cries to our Lord Jesus Christ for His Spirit to deliver us from the hand of the evil one and transform us at any cost that the Father may be glorified in and through us...

I posted a verse earlier, that God hands those over to strong delusion who love not the truth. Show me a revival that exalts heart holiness, the selling of possesions and the giving to the poor and I will check it out. I will not take part in the counterfit though, and anything that does not bring those who are called by Gods name back to the simple obediance, self denial and holiness that is clearly laid out in scripture is a counterfit. be warned dear one.

In Christ - Jim

P
psalm1

Littlegift, If you click on the picture and then scroll down you ee the same picture again click the pic. again and you get that sermon. scroolto the last 2 paragraphs and he tells the story of some men seeking the baptism.
David

R
running2win

the powerfull sweep of the Holy Spirit ushered in the Holy Laughter.

When a church experiences a powerful sweep of the Holy Spirit it leaves the community totally turned upside down and shaken for God. Revival is nothing other than a powerful sweeping of the Holy Ghost over His people and when that happens it goes everywhere because like Jesus said, when He, the Holy Ghost, is come upon you He will convict the world of sin and righteousness and of judgment. You're right, I wasn't there, but for all the "holy" laughing that goes on, if it were truly from mighty sweepings of the Holy Spirit then [b]THIS WHOLE COUNTRY[/b] would be totally christianized by now and we'd be in the midst of the greatest revival that this earth has ever known!!! But what do we have? Preachers living in multi-million dollar houses. Faith healers that are nothing more than scam artists. Higher divorve rates in the "church" than in the world.
I keep seeing people on these threads saying "what's the fruit of it?- what's the fruit of it?" Look and see! The fruit is a christianity that looks more like the world than ever in the history of this earth! If all the holy rollers and laughers in this country were full of the Holy Ghost then things like meth wouldn't exist in this land of ours because the presence of God would so be upon us that all the sinners would have to repent or flee! Think about it! Hollywood wouldn't [b]COULDN'T[/b] sell films like [i]Evan Almighty[/i]. Pornography wouldn't exist any more.
But what do we have?! This country is right on the heels of Europe where perversion has become everyday life. Oh but we're full of the Holy Ghost you see! Try and convince me! Look, a six year old could figure this out!

R
running2win

heart cries to our Lord Jesus Christ for His Spirit to deliver us from the hand of the evil one and transform us at any cost [b]that the Father may be glorified in and through us[/b]...

AH, this is the whole of christianity!
Go hear a faith healer and tell me honestly that his only goal is to glorify God.

H
hmmhmm

for myself i can find no evidence for this kind of laughter, and please can people stop calling it Holy? i can find the frase Holy God, Holy Spirit and a lot of Holy things, no where in scripture does it say holy laughter,

in the article i posted i think explains a lot of things, the kind of laughter we see in the video is not of God, God is not a God of Chaos and disorder. The people in that video act like me and my friends used to behave like when overdosing on LSD and ecstacy pills,

P
psalm1

Daves revival didnt last for the same reason the others down through history didnt last. MAN. It is man thatt kills revival not God.
I know in part what killed daves revival but this is not the arena to speak of it. It is enough to know that it was there for a season and people along with myself were impacted by it.
When a person packs up and goes to a revival God meets that person in a marvelous way. It is awesome! Dont paint yoursef in a corner to such an extent that when another move of God breaks out you will be too paralized to jump in. Can you imagine if i would have read Daves newsletter and said"thats not scriptural!" and refused that awesome invitation to a blessing of a lifetime?
David

L
LoveHim

dear running2win,

that is precisely what i mean by asking "what is the fruit of it". are they being transformed into the image of God?? is God being manifested in their lives in deeper devotion and consecration?? these are the questions i have to always ask when i hear of the "new" moves of God. is this making us Christlike in our hearts and in our ways??

there will another "move of God" soon and then after 5-10 years there will be another "move of God". there will always be the "new thing the Lord is doing", but if it does not cause more repentance and more sacrifice in our lives, then you can have it because it isn't a move of God.

fads and "new moves" will come and go, but the word of God endures forever.

B
BrokenOne

I am reading Anatomy of Deception by Art Katz and just finished reading this portion which seems relevant to this thread so I thought I'd post it.

When experience as a quick-fix alternative is preferred to the disciplines of diligently seeking God, authentic apostolic Church life, denying self, carrying one’s cross daily to follow Him, we put ourselves in a place of spiritual jeopardy, but is not the Lord near at hand to all who seek Him? What is the enduring benefit of having received merely some alleviation from the symptoms that were occasioned by serious defects of character, and yet retaining those same character defects? Whatever the future will reveal of the present ‘revival’ phenomena, perhaps the greatest thing will be the profound repentance of thousands upon recognizing their susceptibility to deception, their lack of elementary discernment, and their haste to run after demonstrations of power in atmospheres so contrary to God’s known holiness and character.

Clearly, a power is at work, but the question is, whose? Who is it that is mediating an alternative and lesser joy to the immature, the carnal, and the undiscerning? Assuming that our fears are exaggerated and that the present phenomenon is of God, though admittedly marred only by certain excesses, in what ways will future lying signs and wonders be different from those with which we are presently being confronted? By what criteria will these differences be identified? Are we presently at the level of maturity and discernment by which these important distinctions can be made? By what means shall we come to that place if we are now prone to describe as ‘enemies’ those who are only raising questions about it? The very ridicule and censure brought by the advocates of this revival of those who attempt to do so makes suspect the very claims they espouse. The fact that something eventuates in blessing, release, or deliverance is no sure evidence or guarantee that it is of God.

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders; so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect (Matt. 24:24).

The same powers of darkness which have wrought the oppressions through careless or unclean living can just as easily relieve them, restoring even relationships that have been broken and made miserable by them, in order to bring about a greater deception! Even the most rapturous ‘love of God’ can be a pseudo-sensation produced by spirits in the indiscriminate and slothful who are unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to seek God’s face in truth. Is the ‘hunger for God’ in fact that, or a hunger for an experience of God that will assure the insecure soul that he is known and accepted of God? Is this not the unrecognized motive that makes many pant after present-day prophets in hope of a ‘prophetic’ word of this kind? Does not this tendency promote the immaturity of such, rather than encourage them in the faith as sons? Do we not prefer to be effortlessly acted upon miraculously rather than diligently seek God on the basis of the promise of His Word?

H
hmmhmm

that is a good thing to read, i also recomend [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17775&forum=34&3]God crucified[/url], there is much in that sermon, but what spoke to my heart was about the cross, what kind of cross do we have? a plastic or a woden bloody one? a plastic made by modern preachers and false gospels that appeal to out flesh or the cross the lamb of God was slain upon?

R
running2win

Thank you BrokenOne, that's powerful.

Yes brother Phil I've understood and agree with your stance on this whole thing. My post was addressed to those who are in defense of the laughter thing and WOF and all that and all the false doctrine of modern "christianity". They ask "what's the fruit coming out of WOF and the charismatic movement" in defense of the whole thing but I would be so bold as to say that there is no fruit coming out of it. WOF hasn't shaken the dunghill for Christ let alone our nation. Now I'm not totally generalizing, I realize that sincere seekers can come to God through WOF and neither am I condemning the individuals in the movement nor am I saying that there aren't any sincere people in the charismatic movement. I realize full well that there are many sincere people that are true christians that would be classified as charismatics. I'm simply saying what the people want to call christian and say is of God in this nation is [b]ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY OPPOSED TO THE WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD AND HIS CHARACTER![/b] It's created a people that have no concern for sin, no concept of Christ as Lord, think they can have (to quote a certain WOF teacher) "everything that this world has to offer" [i]and[/i] get to heaven at the end of it all, are [b]FILLED TO THE BRIM[/b] with selfishness and materialism, see nothing wrong with compromise, and the list could go on from now until dooms day!!! This country has [b]NEVER BEEN FARTHER FROM GOD[/b] than it is now and somehow we've convinced ourselves that this is of GOD!
I'm not trying to be offensive but I'm [b]OUTRAGED[/b] at what people are trying to say is christian. IT'S [b]ANTI-CHRIST![/b] and I'm not afraid to say so. God have mercy on the blasphemy of this land that He has put up with for so long. Fearful will be the day when God says "Enough!"

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
What is funny,no pun intended, is when the skeptic gets the Holy laughtrer. I have personally been in many meetings where holy laughter was present. I first heard about it around 1994 when my mother told me what was happening in her church. She told me of all the people laughing. I told her I thought it was people trying to draw attention to themselves. But DEFINATELY not God. She asked if I would come see for myself. You all are right IT SOUNDS LIKE ITS OFF. But you would have to be there to judge it.Because when i visited her church the powerfull sweep of the Holy Spirit ushered in the Holy Laughter. I was sitting in his presence and it was awesome.I had to apologise to the Lord for judging Him out of my human mind.
Now what are you going to say? There are 2 Holy Spirts? One Good and one bad?
I know my redeemer and I know the presencee of the Holy Ghost. You werent there and you with your mind try to judge spiritual things. I did the same and ended up Judgeing wrong. You make the same mistake.
David
Dear David

Of course there are not two Holy Spirits, don't be ridiculous! Has [u]anyone[/u] on this thread said or implied that there are?????

All you seem to be doing is ranting at those who you see as sceptics. What about answering some of the points we have raised, instead of just reacting as if you were being personally attacked! No one is judging your personal experience, the topic of this thread is the Kenneth Copeland video, not the meetings you have attended!

You werent there and you with your mind try to judge spiritual things.
[b][i]WHO[/i][/b] is trying to judge spiritual things with the mind?????

I think maybe you would accuse John Wesley as doing that too, just because he experienced both kinds of "Holy Laughter", that from the ONE TRUE HOLY SPIRIT and that from another spirit, a demonic one! This was not an intellectual exercise on his part!

Some of us have seen (and maybe experienced) both, just as Wesley did.


Jeannette

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
Littlegift, If you click on the picture and then scroll down you ee the same picture again click the pic. again and you get that sermon. scroolto the last 2 paragraphs and he tells the story of some men seeking the baptism.
David
Got it at last! Thanks.

I had no idea that the sermon was in "The Old Paths" or that the pic was of Smith Wigglesworth himself!


But.....Reading that makes me wonder even more. How can you [i]possibly[/i] think Kenneth Copeland is anything like Smith Wigglesworth :-? :-? :-?

What Wigglesworth says is [u]beautiful[/u] made my spirit rejoice, and very challenging too! Seeing and hearing and reading the words of Kenneth Copeland is NOTHING like that!

The best I can say about the stuff on KC's website is that it's spiritual junk food. Maybe it might save a person from spiritual starvation, if they were desperate, but an extremely unhealthy "diet" by itself.

Certainly Kenneth Copeland is upbeat and positive and full of "faith", which would help some. But the rest of it seems so shallow...

And as for the video.... :-(


In HIm


Jeannette

S
sermonindex


BrokenOne wrote:
I am reading Anatomy of Deception by Art Katz and just finished reading this portion which seems relevant to this thread so I thought I'd post it.

"... Assuming that our fears are exaggerated and that the present phenomenon is of God, though admittedly marred only by certain excesses, in what ways will future lying signs and wonders be different from those with which we are presently being confronted? By what criteria will these differences be identified? Are we presently at the level of maturity and discernment by which these important distinctions can be made? [i][b]By what means shall we come to that place if we are now prone to describe as ‘enemies’ those who are only raising questions about it? The very ridicule and censure brought by the advocates of this revival of those who attempt to do so makes suspect the very claims they espouse[/b][/i]..."

This really concerns me, because it is exactly what is happening on this thread.

Although, (in case David should think himself accused of this) I wouldn't necessarily think that all who fall victime to deception in this area are on a low "level of maturity and discernment". We are [i]all[/i] blind to certian things, and see other things more clearly.

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders; so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect (Matt. 24:24).

The same powers of darkness which have wrought the oppressions through careless or unclean living can just as easily relieve them, restoring even relationships that have been broken and made miserable by them, in order to bring about a greater deception! Even the most rapturous ‘love of God’ can be a pseudo-sensation produced by spirits in the indiscriminate and slothful who are unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to seek God’s face in truth. Is the ‘hunger for God’ in fact that, or a hunger for an experience of God that will assure the insecure soul that he is known and accepted of God? Is this not the unrecognized motive that makes many pant after present-day prophets in hope of a ‘prophetic’ word of this kind?..."

That is so true. That's why genuine spiritual gifts are so essential now - even more than they were in former times. Deception is getting more and more subtle, and is indeed deceiving even the elect in many cases.

Thanks for the quote BrokenOne

Love in Him

Jeannette

L
Logic

The doctrine of Benny and Kenny along with most of the TBN crowd is greatly erroneous.

Thats is what make them dangerous, mixing truth with error.

P
psalm1

Littlegift, Have you ever been in a meeting where any thing such as tongues, prophecy, or laying hands on the sick was present?
Also do you think that miracles have ceased with the passing of the apostles or are they available today,
I dont know of anyplace I ranted but I will do better. If you knew me you wouldnt say that.
David

L
LoveHim

brother david,

i sincerly respect your opinion on this matter. i appreciate you continuing to post on this thread when it seems as if you are the only one still supporting the "holy laughter thing".

i just have a one question for you.

is it good biblical advice to support beliefs by mere experience??

i say this because if we lived in the day of Jesus, we would all say of judas..

* don't you know that he is the Lord's disciple.

* he must be so close to God to walk with His Son all day and night.

* wow, did you hear how judas and the other disciples healed the sick and casted out demons.

and yet Christ said that He chose 12 disciples and yet one was a devil.

if we judge by mere experience, there are a lot of things that look right, sound right, act right, but they are not right. God has given us His word and His Spirit to discern the difference and they will never contradict one another.

i hope that you will see that we are not trying to push you into a corner and say "aha, you are wrong" but rather "brother, we love you and want you to be able to see things from God's word better"

that is it. love you man.

P
psalm1

lovehim,the meetings i have been in with holy laughter present were awesome.I dont know any way that I can tell anyone here that they are mistaken.
I will say that if I wanted to convince somebody that there are no missle silos in wyoming i would start with people that werent there.
Of course people will oppose any move of God.
Look at azusa street. R A Torrey Author and a man of God said it was satanic.
Look at brownsville revival Dave wilkerson almost needed an affidavit from heaven before he would admit it.
A good number of people here dont want to hear any coment on Holy Laughter except to say it is whatever who knows from hell I guess.
I was at times square church when carter conlan preached against Holy laughter. I had already been to 3 or4 Meetings with Holy laughter present. I could not believe what he was saying. He was talking about something he knew nothing about. I thought to myself that he would check further into it. He did not.
When Don [ Daves brother] came to the brownsville revival He said he would go and tell Dave that God had shown up in brownsville.Don and Dave are true men of God and yet they misjudged these 2 moves of God. By the way i have spent Litterally hundreds of hours under Dave through tapes and in persson. I have personally been to timothy house in new york so i know daves ministry and respect him but he was wrong in judging these 2 moves.
Is there anything dave is not against? Listen to him and you will find out.He judges anything and everything.Even his wife has to get after him.
I hear most on this forum as if they are concerned about deception.Not as if they are judging themselves but others. I have chosen not to put the magnifying glass on you but me. And i know where the safe ground is.
Ye need not many teachers but the Holy Spirit will comee and teach you.
But really what does it matter?You guys have an arsenal at your disposal and to you it is set in stone. I mean it must be. Because the ramifications if you are wrong are catastrophic.
As far as i know there is not any Holy laughter happening. You, as far as i know ,are looking at old tapes.
David

L
LoveHim

brother david,

thank you for responding.. i have posed this question before and i will pose it yet again.

what is the fruit of this "holy laughter" in the lives of those who have it??

is it manifesting repentance and a deeper devotion to the Lord??

how is this laughter transforming men and women into the image of God's Son??

i am asking brother, what is the fruit??

C
crsschk

David,

What you are doing is misjudging those who have grave concerns about this matter and you have beaten this thing to death already. You cannot prove it from scripture and you cannot make it "Holy" by whatever stretch of the imagination possible.

Moreover that there has been these forms break out in revivals in the past as example and this ungodly charade shown on this video are not compatible. Those that were borne out of travail and repentance and constituted joy afterwords, whatever may have become of the excesses. These are men that are fostering an incredible, false and gut-retching version of Christianity on the masses that is a far greater injury than this particular incident shows, even if it is just endemic of the same lightness that is shown towards great eternal matters.

I hear most on this forum as if they are concerned about deception.Not as if they are judging themselves but others. I have chosen not to put the magnifying glass on you but me. And i know where the safe ground is.

Do you? Then why are you defending yourself and slighting others? There is far more to this forum and to this site than you know.

S
sermonindex

Finished reading the Old Paths article today. I don't agree with all he says, (especially the implication that those who are not healed are to bleme for tehir lack of faith) but he has a wholesomeness about him that I don't see in people like Kenneth Copeland.

Sorry if that offends, but there you are.

Jeannette

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
Littlegift, Have you ever been in a meeting where any thing such as tongues, prophecy, or laying hands on the sick was present?
Yes, I operate in some of those gifts too, and have seen both the genuine and counterfeit.

Also do you think that miracles have ceased with the passing of the apostles or are they available today,
Of course they are available today! (Although some on SI wouldn't agree with me ;-))

Except that I'm not sure if "available" is the word I would use. The Lord is the [i][b]LORD[/b][/i], and we can't force Him to do miracles just because we think we need them!

I dont know of anyplace I ranted but I will do better. If you knew me you wouldnt say that.
David
Sorry If I was hard on you, Bro. David. It was just that you reacted so strongly to some things said on this thread, and I was trying to get you to settle down and pray and think through if there might be at least [i]some[/i] truth in what others were saying, instead of getting all offended and defensive (as you seemed to be).

It is difficult to communicate in typed words, and sometimes we misunderstand each other more than we would face to face.

I did begin to wonder if it would be wiser to give up pressing you on this subject...

Yet I have learned [i][u]so much[/u][/i] from times when I've been angry, defensive and uptight about what people said (as you seemed on this thread). That was how I realised I'd been brainwashed re Evolution for example. Someone said how can you believe it if you're a Christian? I was FURIOUS! Then started thinking why am I so angry if its only a theory. It didn't take long to realise what a hopeless "theory" it is, even from a scientific view. But it wasn't until I was surprised by my own reaction that I began to see it.

In Him

Jeannette

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
lovehim,the meetings i have been in with holy laughter present were awesome.I dont know any way that I can tell anyone here that they are mistaken.
Meetings you have been in may have been awesome, but that doesn't mean they all are. You are still avoiding the question.

Also the original topic of this thread was the Kenneth Copeland video, not other meetings and moves. The video was at best silliness masquerading as "holy laughter", at worst utterly demonic! In other words countrefeit, not genuine.

And if its an old tape, has Kenneth Copeland repented? I didn't get that impression on his website, which presumably is up to date.

A good number of people here dont want to hear any coment on Holy Laughter except to say it is whatever who knows from hell I guess.
Some of us know that there is such a thing as genuine Holy laughter. What was on that video wasn't it!

I was at times square church when carter conlan preached against Holy laughter. I had already been to 3 or4 Meetings with Holy laughter present. I could not believe what he was saying. He was talking about something he knew nothing about. I thought to myself that he would check further into it. He did not.
Some of us here HAVE experienced the true as well as the counterfeit. But you don't seem to be willing to allow for that fact at all.

I hear most on this forum as if they are concerned about deception. ...And i know where the safe ground is.
But [u][i]DO[/i][/u] you???? I don't get that impression. That's why I'm concerned, and no doubt others here. You talk as if you genuinely can't tell the difference between good "food" and the rotten contaminated stuff; and blame those who try to warn you, as if we are trying to put you off the good food!

Can't you see what's wrong with the KC video? I still can't believe you are unable to tell the difference between that and Smith Wigglesworth's writings!


In Him

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

I am convinced that some of the "big name" Christians these days have opened themselves to demonic forces in their lust for power, money, success and influence, including a high status as "men of God".

to THAT, I say amen.

you have hit upon the nexus, the starting point of EVERYTHING wrong in the church in america today. "big name preachers", Lord have mercy, big buildings, big cars, and its not only "them", "supersize it" has become the motto of everything that is wrong, and goes contrary to Christ in this nation, the idolatry of wealth, celebrity and excess. God have mercy on us.

as far as the laughing is concern, so what? Let them laugh, if they are playing ecclesiatical or spiritual games with God, they'll melt away. But as the rabbi Gamaliel said, "If it is of God....."

as far as my walk, sure I've heard the new sounds and "whooo's" that the KC/Toronto/Vineyard, etc adherents make whilst in corporate assembly and it doesn't carry the pleasing Aroma of Christ, but.....who I am, but a worm.

P
psalm1

If I were you guys and not me I prob. would be right in there with you. Maybe not to the degree of calling it the devil.
Its possible the only way wigglesworth has squeaked by your gauntlett is the absence of videos in his days.
S.W. once threw a baby on the ground and punched a woman in the stomach. Now lets put together a movie clip of him and do as much damage as possible to his legacy because in our minds we know this couldnt be God.
I have plenty of beefs with not only wof but most of the church and error I cant even speak of on this forum. But to ascribe the devil indescriminately to brothers is way way out of line.
You think you are right and who am I to tell any of you differently. Im just a humanoid with a laptop.
I have no Art Katz, Zac Poonen, Dave Wilkerson,Greg Gorden, or the biggie...Philogos endorsement. And I am sure you guys are just getting started.
Ive tried to show you a different side to this matter and you dont want to hear it.
I find this strange that you claim to stand for truth but you will only accept what you want to hear. Only one concept stirs you.
Well I cant prove to you no matter how many sentences I bang out on this thing what I saw and heard and felt.
Any of us can do this to each other.
I dont know if any of you move in the Spirit or get into the Spirit through worship. It sounds as though you do not.There is another realm out there that is the realm of the spirit.
It is the realm where john was in the book of revelation.
The mind actually becomes secondary in this realm.Saul actually entered this realm after samuel annointed him.
You dont believe in being sensitive to the spirit? If you tell a lie you dont feel the jab or rebuke of the holy ghost? Do you confuse this with the devil?
I have not heard ONE person say These people under Holy Laughter must be in the flesh. As if you dont know there is still another possibility.
All I see is ignorance trying to discredit.
You dont understand it so you kill. This is why you dont ascribe the "flesh" to this phenomenon.that would be too lite on them.If we ascribe it to the devil that nails ths coffin lid shut and end of story, becaause now my opponent is backpeddleing trying to get the muck off of them instead of discussing important "points".
Did you know that many many years ago there was an outbreak of Holy Laughter in china?
Fortunately for them it wasnt videotaped.
by the waay what is it supposed to look like?
Does Carter Conlan have a book or sermon on the proper way to behave when the holy Spirit manifests in a meeting. Well he must because he is the expert.
Or what about any of you? what is proper protocal? I would like to know about some of your experiences with proper Holy Laughter and Proper Prophetic words and proper worship in the spirit.
...David

C
crsschk

Well David do you seek understanding or just a confrontation? I do not think you have the foggiest idea of what you are speaking of when it comes to the members that participate in this fellowship. If you wish to divorce yourself into neat categories of experience versus scripture you will indeed be met with a challenge on that line.

You have confused this matter by seemingly talking out of both sides of your mouth here brother. On the one hand you say you have a great deal of problem with WOF constructs and then turn around and wish to slight or accuse someone of presenting this video as being hostile ... do you even know where it originally came from, might it have been from one of it's own members? Regardless, that you wish to compare and somehow not compare your particular experience with this is certainly giving the impression that you are in agreement with it or that you want to somehow borrow from the 'event' to buttress you own ...

Not only that but your being snide, is that a manifestation of 'moving in the Spirit or getting into the Spirit'?

On that note;

I dont know if any of you move in the Spirit or get into the Spirit through worship. It sounds as though you do not.There is another realm out there that is the realm of the spirit.

And if it consists of ...

The mind actually becomes secondary in this realm.Saul actually entered this realm after samuel annointed him.

I would have no part of it nor should you expect any other thing than a complete refuting of it from most that fellowship here. If you chuck the mind that God has granted you in this fashion you are opening yourself up to all kinds of delusions and I don't even know what you might be attributing to Saul by way of Samuel, where are you getting this stuff?

I have not heard ONE person say These people under Holy Laughter must be in the flesh. As if you dont know there is still another possibility.

Very well, these people are diluted under their teachers teachings having itching ears and are operating in the flesh with a high likelihood of being deceived by the devil himself. Some things do not have to be addressed specifically all the time. What you are describing as 'getting into the spirit' is nothing more than your soulish attempts to manufacture something that comes from your mind. I have traveled in these same circles and heard the same style working up in the flesh that which is lacking of the Holy Spirit. Have had the attempts made to be manipulated by a suggestion that the only reason 'we' couldn't speak in tongues in a mass of confusion was because we wouldn't "let go of our minds" and all this after pouring our hearts out in anguish over the days earlier events of 911. So much for the tragedy, on to the more pleasant things. You think some us would treat all this lightly and without question?

Does Carter Conlan have a book or sermon on the proper way to behave when the holy Spirit manifests in a meeting. Well he must because he is the expert.

Do you wish to be a wise guy brother, is any of this truly necessary?
Or what about any of you? what is proper protocal? I would like to know about some of your experiences with proper Holy Laughter and Proper Prophetic words and proper worship in the spirit.

Two things. First off, book, chapter, verse.
Secondly there is no such thing as 'proper' "Holy Laughter" it's a contradiction in terms. Do you even know what the word "Holy" means?

P
psalm1

I suppose from your comments you dont ever get into the spirit which I also suppose is your basis for your judgements.
Again I am glad for Wigglessworth escaping the gauntlet.
And If i ask questions I am accused of a bad attitude but I notice its open season on me. Go figure?
There is also no word trinity but it is what we call it.
Like I said before I will never stop any of you from doing anything all I say is there is another view, and when I express that view it incurrs "great responses"
. In the book of samuel saul was annointed by the prophet and was found prophesying with the prophets.
Doesnt the word say walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh?
If all is of the mind and nobody operates "in the spirit" I suppose my next logical conclusion is ....There will never be another experience such as John had on Patmos.
The discernment that is spoken of in this forum is that from your mind? Becaause that Is what the phaarasies did , they tried to discern the presence of the King of Glory with their mind. Just wont fly. Sorry for the offence it is not intended.I do apologise.
I admit I have not done a study on laughter. Would be easy to do.
Im glad moses didnt say "a burning bush! thats not scriptural!"
You and me wouldnt even be here if he had.
I agree with a lot of what you say . I disagree with ascribing the devil to a Group of christians .
I ask simple questions and people get offended. Why?
....David

H
hmmhmm

Dear David, your reasoning is very "vierd", that is a wrong word to use, but if i told you, this "holy laughter" is from the devil, i have no evidence from the bible and i dont need it becuse i know anyway no matter what kind of bible verse you throw at me or what you say or how you say it becuse you are all wrong and i know better then all of you.

then you see a little of what you show us :-)

still brother we need evidence from the bible, or else we can all come up with whatever we think is right or from God, and go join some sect.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If you cant find it in the book turn your back on it, and when you do you turn your face toward the light......

A.W Tozer

dont get carried away...... stick to the scriptures

D
divdasunder

1Cr 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
The video totally disregardes this scriptue.
David, you seem to come across the same way when anyone questions the video. You ask the person if the gifts are for today. They are for today, but where is laughing called a gift? We need to stick to the revealed Word of God. We don't need anything else.
If we showed any person off the street this video, wouldn't they think the people were cazy?
1Cr 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
Where is God glorified?
Where is Christ lifted up?
Where is conviction of sin?
Where is Christ crucified preached?
Please show me in scripture where I am wrong.
You seem to want to go by feelings. I would rather stick to what God has revealed.
I apologize if this is taken the wrong way. I debated contibuting or not for a while. I am not trying to tear you down, I just want Christ magnified. God Bless....

S
sermonindex

psalm1 wrote:
Again I am glad for Wigglesworth escaping the gauntlet.
What you said about him has actually put me off him! Maybe I was mistaken, and he wasn't such a godly man as he seemed. But his writing still seems more wholesome than Copeland's writing - let alone the video.

I'm talking about SPIRITUAL not mental discernment here, by the way! I wouldn’t feel physically sick at something like the Copeland video if it was only mental!

Why do you keep repeating this accusation that we are judging with the mind only? Many here move in spiritual gifts. Discernment can be from the mind or the spirit; from experience or from a knowledge of the Word and the ways of God. The most accurate discernment comes from ALL of the above! We can all discern wrongly at times. For example, maybe I was mistaken in thinking Smith Wigglesworth was OK. Maybe he was only OK in the sense that KC is worse spiritually - even if he doesn't punch women or throw babies around!

In the book of samuel saul was annointed by the prophet and was found prophesying with the prophets Doesnt the word say walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh?.
Don't you know what happened to Saul? He's NOT a good example of someone walking in the Spirit, even though he did genuinely prophesy (no one doubts that he did)!

If all is of the mind and nobody operates "in the spirit" I suppose my next logical conclusion is ....There will never be another experience such as John had on Patmos.
What gives you that idea? That comment doesn't make sense! Why do you keep ON talking as if everyone except you is against spiritual things, miracles, visions, healings etc etc?

Some of your comments, like the above, and Moses and the burning bush, are so wide of the mark that it's difficult to make any sense of them! What have Moses or John to do with Kenneth Copeland? Moses would probably have discerned straight away that KC was offering “strange fire”! Remember what happened to two of Aaron’s sons when they did that? I’m glad that the Lord is often merciful and gives us space to repent – but that time He didn’t!

I ask simple questions and people get offended. Why?
You seem to be the one taking offence, or maybe [i][u]going on the offensive[/u][/i] would be a better description!

What questions are you actually asking? They seem to have got lost in all your wild accusations!

Please David, try to be reasonable and leave off all this sarcasm and verbal attack! Even from your point of view it has the opposite result from what you want.

in Him

Jeannette


S
sermonindex


worm4Christ wrote:
I am convinced that some of the "big name" Christians these days have opened themselves to demonic forces in their lust for power, money, success and influence, including a high status as "men of God".

to THAT, I say amen.

you have hit upon the nexus, the starting point of EVERYTHING wrong in the church in america today. "big name preachers", Lord have mercy, big buildings, big cars, and its not only "them", "supersize it" has become the motto of everything that is wrong, and goes contrary to Christ in this nation, the idolatry of wealth, celebrity and excess. God have mercy on us.

as far as the laughing is concern, so what? Let them laugh, if they are playing ecclesiatical or spiritual games with God, they'll melt away. But as the rabbi Gamaliel said, "If it is of God....."

as far as my walk, sure I've heard the new sounds and "whooo's" that the KC/Toronto/Vineyard, etc adherents make whilst in corporate assembly and it doesn't carry the pleasing Aroma of Christ, but.....who I am, but a worm.

Hi Worm. Wow we agree, that's nice :-D

Teasing, you, but it IS nice!

it doesn't carry the pleasing Aroma of Christ
Thanks for that - the heart of the matter! That's exactly the essence of SPIRITUAL discernment. Not usually a mental understanding at first, but ""Sniff"" ""Sniff"" "Something not right here!"

Then the mental understanding kicks in, and the prayer. "Lord what exactly is going on here?" Is this of you?" It doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm being over-critical. Please show me!"

And maybe He gives some scripture so you can check it out, or some other way of exposing what is happening.

David is right that we can't trust in mental discernment [i]alone[/i]. I remember a tract being put through my door one time. Before even touching it there was a sense of something *[edit]*not* quite right with it.

I read it and was puzzled. It seemed 100% Christian, I just couldn't get a handle on why it felt "wrong". After reading it several times I finally saw some small print that said it was by the Christadelphians (a cult)! My mind couldn't pick it up, but my spirit did.

Around the same time another tract came, and there was the opposite reaction - "Oh, bless them!" - again even before reading it. That was from the local Brethren fellowship - giving the real Gospel.

I don't claim any special discernment, (as I said, we can all make mistakes - especially thinking something or someone are is OK when they aren't), those were just two examples from experience.

I'm not so good discerning people. More than once I trusted someone who turned out not to be reliable, or to be manipulating me.

...Probably because of my own emotional needs springing from rejection etc.

We all have these weak spots, its nothing to be ashamed of, but they can get us into trouble or even danger if we don't heed warnings, (we must also seek the Lord for confirmation of course).

Blessings

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

edit, posted twice by mistake!

C
crsschk

I suppose from your comments you dont ever get into the spirit which I also suppose is your basis for your judgments.

Think this might explain much here. I believe that is a false dichotomy "get into", brother this is not a 'something' we work ourselves up into. Either the Holy Spirit is resident within or He is not. That the Lords presence can indeed be [i]felt[/i] in varieties of different manifestations ... let me put it this way, does He come become we formulate some type of response by which we make Him obligated to do so? Such as 'worship music'? Can you see how these things are most often geared towards our pleasure and entertainment and really have little to do with "worship" ?


I admit I have not done a study on laughter.

Better, try one on "Holy" and I say that with all sincerity brother.
I ask simple questions and people get offended. Why?

Because more often you are not asking questions rather making pronouncements and accusations.

P
psalm1

rev 1;10 I was in the Spirit on the Lords day
acts 11;5.....and in a trance i saw a vision
rev 4;2 and immediately i was in the spirit
phil3;3.... which worship God in the spirit
2cor 12;2......whether in the boby i cannot tell, or whether out of the body I cannot tell


my little 15 minute bible study yielded over 13 references to the men of God getting into the spirit.And I am sure I only scratched the surface.
the bible teaches we are 3 parts spirit soul and body.
Am I missing something here?
David

P
psalm1

crsschk, I know I am answering you awkwardly but i am doing the best i can. I dont know why you would want me to do a study on holy. I didnt name it that but it did occur to me why it bothers you.
according to emmet russel holy-heb.qaddash ...separateness ,withdrawal. Also Gods name and nature holiness is stressed.
I guess i wasnt too far off . I would have answerd you that holiness is not a concept but a person. God.
Jesus said why do you call me good ,there is only one good, God
there is therefore only one holy, God
What is your take on holy?
David

P
psalm1

crsschk, I went back and read most of my comments and other peoples comments and I dont see anything but 2 opposing views. If I am out of line tell me. At least everyone here seems to respect one another . I dont mean to disrespect anyone. I know I am awkward here but I have learned much . I can tell from peoples answers that we dont"connect". But I dont come from the same place as people on this forum. We are miles and miles apart. Most everyone here has things to air out and what I am seing Is the tremendous need in the body for people to have a voice.
I have warmed a pew for 30 years and I, like so many others, feel like a man without a home.
It is wrong to seek recognition but it is part of our core fiber to desire to be a part of something. Can the foot say to the hand "I have no need of thee"
I desire more than anything in this world to hook up with God like Elija and Elisha and be a part of Gods army.I am so tired of weak enimic gospel, christians ,leaders, and attitudes that have caused the church to regress instead of progress. I know God gives his people revelation and I know he has given me and others revelation..
Part of my annament rejection of this thread is the concept of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. we can paint ourselves into a corner to such an extent that we paralize ourselves. I have NEVER been a copeeland fan. I do admire Hagin.
I said before[but was ignored] that my issue is not ANYONE OPPOSING the laughter. My issue is ascribing the devil to it.
David

P
psalm1

Littlegift, I dont mean to compare wigglesworth with copeland. I am not a copeland fan.
My point with wigglesworth was that testimony about the man that went back to make things right.
Which is to say that anybody wanting to go deeper and farther with God will enjoy a higher devotion to God.
David

L
Lotis

The fruit of the laughter is joy. I have experienced it before, and obviously (I am with Psalm1) nothing could change my mind about it. The holy spirit is also our comforter, he doesn't always just make us weep and mourn. I am not a fan of Kenneth but I do also like Hagin...so my what you think of them is up to you, but if I showed you a video of them preaching with a bunch of people at the alter repenting, you would probably say it was a false repentance. Or maybe not. All these discussions ever become are people disecting other people's posts and systematically explaining how they are wrong. Me and pslam1 have experienced it, and as Ravenhill said, a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. Argue all you want, you can't prove its false with scripture any more then I can prove its true. But ive tasted it, and it was the Lord, and he tasted great. I once knew of a girl who caught this holy laughter, she sat at the alter for the entire sermon of a guest preacher, laughing loudly and no doubt distracting some. The guest speaker got slightly annoyed but didn't say anything. At the end of the service someone came up to him and explained that the girl had been horribly depressed for quite some time, and that it had been months since anyone had even seen her smile. Was that girl to repent of her depression before receiving that joy? Was she to repent of the devils that oppressed her? She was right with the Lord, but oppressed by the devil, you decide if thats false fruit. God can do what he wants, including make people laugh SIMPLY because he wants to make them happy. Box him in some more why don't ya. :-P

S
sonofthunder

Some interesting discussion ... happening here !

Lot of backwards and forwards - occuring.

Not a follower of the (2) men in discussion, though once was, to some degree - during the early part of my Christianity and walk.

Have taught on (Holy laughter) on another Forum ... and yes it always generates much "debate" and discussion.

I wouldn't (myself) Totally blanket as always being "demonic" or Unholy !! Depends on the circumstance, enviroment and atmospher generated by the holy Ghost in the meeting. So i would reserve my judgement, rather than to just to just come straight out and lambast or condemn the experience as a whole. As i have experienced WHAT I DESCRIBE AS A "release" of sorts - in the spiritual demension after much "warfare" with the powers of "hell" - and to the extent what followed, can only be what Paul talks of in romans eight of this GROANING in the Spirit. He comes upon and intercedes with Groaning ... which cannot be uttered. Again note the language carefully ... which cannot be uttered (or) put it this way (not appropriate)to be uttered in public ( that is to say should others people be present around me - when i make these utterances ) as they ... other folk ... might construe you/me to have lost our marbles, or say that gutterish sound is unlawful , or worse yet censure us by saying it is flat out "satanic"

Where we go wrong: is somethings are definitely reseved for behind closed doors and in the private prayer closet, otherwise we would not have guidlines for the use speaking in tongues in the public assembly from 1 corinth chapter fourteen. As a lot of pentecostals and charismatics still are of the persuasion that the utterance of tongues is a free for all in public anywhare/ anytime mindset.

C
crsschk

Hi David,

Thank you for your clarifying some things here. Very helpful.

But I dont come from the same place as people on this forum. We are miles and miles apart.

Oh, you would be surprised.
I have warmed a pew for 30 years and I, like so many others, feel like a man without a home.

You have a home here brother, absolutely.
Part of my annament rejection of this thread is the concept of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. we can paint ourselves into a corner to such an extent that we paralize ourselves. I have NEVER been a copeeland fan. I do admire Hagin.

Well, perhaps not the best way of going about things maybe. This is somewhat dated to begin with and to use it as the launching point to borrow from your personal experience ... Brother, there is a lot of history here, over 4 years worth now. There is a depth of riches in fellowship and from the messages themselves, others experience and longevity in the Lord, those things they bring, mention, share ...

I do agree with the understanding about the baby and bathwater approach and sometimes that is a matter of perception that we also bring to it. This particular incident and those of us who have been fairly well entrenched in matters of this sort ... well, we have been part of and some still experience the fallout from ramifications of it all. I would just as well state that attributing this 'phenomenon' to the devil himself is not really a stretch at all. I experienced this seemingly out of nowhere, as it wasn't induced specifically, 'laughter' while attending a Benny Hinn crusade. What to make of it? It bothered me even though I was slightly caught up in it, more so on reflection and hindsight after the night was through.

So what to make of our varied experiences?Shouldn't we just test all things back to and by the scripture's despite how well we might have felt otherwise. Brother, at the heart of the matter this is the ultimate issue for the great majority here.

Even in the revivals of the past where this happened, there was a mixture of those that were expressing relief, the spontaneous breaking from recognition of the pardon from sin and hat which was being mimicked or possibly emotional (fleshly-soulish) and even that which was attributed to the devil making a mockery of things. Some put a stop to it others ... If we look at some of the recent outbreaks and he associated travesties that came about in them (barking like dogs and the like) and this sort of thing itself, 'laughter' .... again, all I can appeal to is scripture for example or even possibilities, I just do not see it anywhere.

If your experience is what you say it is, who is to argue? And like many things, there is no need to defend. That tendency at least for me, puts things into a doubtful light or perhaps it is raising questions in the one bringing them.

Keep in mind where you are bringing all this, in this particular incident. I do not know how you could have expected much of a different reaction frankly.

P
psalm1

hmmhmm, I dont know if this helps but here is scripture:Rom 14;17 the kindom of God is not meat and drink but rightoussness peace and JJOOOYYY, in the HOLY GHOST.
Rom 15;13 now the God of hope FILL you with all JJOOOYYYY....through the power of the HOLY GHOST.
Acts13;52 And the disciples were filled with JJJOOOOYYYY and with the HOLY GHOST.
Gal 5;22 But the fruit of the spirit is love JJOOOYYY peace...............
1 theess 1;6 ........with JJOOOOYYYYY of the HOLY GHOST.
1 pETER 1;8 ............WITH JJOOOOYYY unspeakable and full of glory.
I think heaven is FULL of joy and laughter.
whats the opposite? 1st church of the lemon juice scowl? we all neeed the JOY !
Didnt paul use scripture against the church?
But then through REVELATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT he saw his "scriptural" stance was error?
just a thought
David

H
hmmhmm

Dear brother David , I'm not against joy, This is joy according to Websters

Joy
JOY, n.

1. The passion or emotion excited by the acquisition or expectation of good; that excitement of pleasurable feelings which is caused by success, good fortune,the gratification of desire or some good possessed, or by a rational prospect of possessing what we love or desire; gladness; exultation; exhilaration of spirits.

Joy is a delight of the mind, from the consideration of the present or assured approaching possession of a good.

Bring heavenly balm to heal my country's wounds,

Joy to my soul and transport to my lay.

2. Gayety; mirth; festivity.

The roofs with joy resound.

3. Happiness; felicity.

Her heavenly form beheld, all wished her joy.

4. A glorious and triumphant state.

--Who for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. Heb 12.

5. The cause of joy or happiness.

For ye are our glory and joy. 1 Th 2.

6. A term of fondness; the cause of you.

JOY, v.i. To rejoice; to be glad; to exult.

I will joy in the God of my salvation. Hab 3.

JOY, v.t. To give joy to; to congratulate; to entertain kindly.

1. To gladden; to exhilarate.

My soul was joyed in vain.

2. To enjoy; to have or possess with pleasure, or to have pleasure in the possession of.

I cant see it as expressed in that video.

1Th 1:6 having received1209 the3588 word3056 in1722 much4183 [b]affliction,2347[/b] with3326 joy5479 of the Holy40 Ghost:4151

affliction,2347=G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

thayer
θλίψις
thlipsis
Thayer Definition:
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaphorically oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

seems to me that this kind of Joy comes from being counted worthy by the Lord to suffer persecution for his name sake

joy5479
G5479
χαρά
chara
Thayer Definition:
1) joy, gladness
1a) the joy received from you
1b) the cause or occasion of joy
1b1) of persons who are one’s joy
Part of Speech: noun feminine

also an interesting thing to notice in Strong's definition

G5479
χαρά
chara
khar-ah'
From G5463; cheerfulness,[b] that is, calm delight:[/b] - gladness, X greatly, (X be exceeding) joy (-ful, -fully, -fulness, -ous).

and calm means according to Websters

Calm
CALM, a.

1. Still; quiet; being at rest; as the air. Hence not stormy or tempestuous; as a calm day.

2. Undisturbed; not agitated; as a calm sea.

3. Undisturbed by passion; not agitated or excited; quiet; tranquil; as the mind, temper, or attention.

CALM, n. Stillness; tranquility; quiet; freedom from motion, agitation, or disturbance; applied to the elements, or the mind and passions.

CALM, v.t. To still; to quiet; as the wind, or elements; to still, appease, allay or pacify, as the mind, or passions.


i find this to be opposite the video we are talking about, and as i said I'm all for Joy in the Holy Ghost, when as in scripture.

H
hmmhmm


psalm1 wrote:

1 pETER 1;8 ............WITH JJOOOOYYY unspeakable and full of glory.

again the same word, joy5479

G5479
χαρά
chara
khar-ah'
From G5463; cheerfulness, that is[b], calm delight[/b]: - gladness, X greatly, (X be exceeding) joy (-ful, -fully, -fulness, -ous).

and in Gal 5:22 it is the same kind of Joy, its the same word. and also notice in that verse the word after joy is peace, the FRUIT of the Holt spirit is calm joy and with a peace that is like this according to Strong's

G1515
εἰρήνη
eirēnē
i-rah'-nay
Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, [b]quietness, rest[/b], + set at one again.

not as in the video chaos and totally ut of order.

in Acts13;52 it is the same word in Greek, the same kind of Joy

in Rom 15;13 it is the same word for jay again. and that word is also followed by the word peace and have the same meaning as i wrote previous.

So to me Joy in the spirit according to the bible is NOT like the one we see in the video, its a quiet and peaceful Joy.

L
Lotis

I live in the New Testament, and the joy I receive from the Holy Spirit is many times a calm joy, but not always. Sometimes it's exceedingly overwhelming. Does that mean when I ask God for joy he sometimes gives me the real deal and sometimes gives me a devil? Uh, no.

H
hmmhmm

well everyone can recive their Joy in what ever way they want to,if people want to roll around on the floor laugh and have all kinds of stuff, i just hope non of you are busdrivers or have some other work and suddenly the "holy laughter" fall on you, becuse people lose controll over themselves when experience this,

L
Lotis

I agree, I would rather not have someone get it while driving and I don't think God would endanger people in that way. So if a bus driver started going crazy I think it would be safe to say it wasn't God. I think I'm done with this discussion, just wanted to say what I feel. Interesting posts on both sides. All that I ask is that we do our best not to box God in. Love you guys.

H
hmmhmm

yes i know what you are saying, but still :-)....

S
sermonindex


Lotis wrote:
I live in the New Testament, and the joy I receive from the Holy Spirit is many times a calm joy, but not always. Sometimes it's exceedingly overwhelming. Does that mean when I ask God for joy he sometimes gives me the real deal and sometimes gives me a devil? Uh, no.
If its from the Holy Spirit its good, if it isn't it isn't. What you get when you ask something depends how you ask. The epistle of James again - our heart motives are the important thing, surely?

I honestly don't understand what you're talking about when you say "Does that mean when I ask God for joy he sometimes gives me the real deal and sometimes gives me a devil?" Who is suggesting that????? How can you possibly use that as an argument to show that you have genuine Holy Spirit joy?????

What you are saying just doesn't make sense to me :-?


Jeannette

H
hmmhmm

i think many people confuse Joy with Laughing, And the epistle Jeannette mentioned says actually some things worth reading about "laughing". I cant find "holy laughing" anywhere in scripture, and yet no one has provided a verse yet, not a clear one anyway.

James 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

L
Lotis

What im saying is are those people in the video asking God for joy or asking the devil? Because it seems to me that skeptics are suggesting they are asking God for joy, and he is giving them the devil. But alas, I am done with this convo. I am not afraid of asking Jesus for anything, because he is good to his children, if I ask him for something good, he wont give me something bad. Much love.

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
rev 1;10 I was in the Spirit on the Lords day
acts 11;5.....and in a trance i saw a vision
rev 4;2 and immediately i was in the spirit
phil3;3.... which worship God in the spirit
2cor 12;2......whether in the boby i cannot tell, or whether out of the body I cannot tell


my little 15 minute bible study yielded over 13 references to the men of God getting into the spirit.And I am sure I only scratched the surface.
the bible teaches we are 3 parts spirit soul and body.
Am I missing something here?
David

Mmmmm, maybe we should start a thread on what being "in the Spirit" really means.

I think what Mike meant was that if we are born of God we ALWAYS have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us - most would say within our human spirit, made to have fellowship with God.

So in that sense we don't have to work at "getting INTO" the Spirit because He's in us already.

Maybe its rather a matter of letting Him live in us, (because He doesn't force us to co-operate with HIm). If we do then He will increasingly manifest His holiness, love, joy, peace, power etc in our lives, overflow, pour out as "streams of living water", as it says in John 7.

That also means we shouldn't need to have anyone lay hands on us to have something of the Holy Spirit imparted - He's already here!

But that isn't really the question of this thread, because I'm sure no-one here is against being in the Spirit, being filled with the HOLY Spirit or having joy in the HOLY Spirit - yes and even laughing in the HOLY Spirit.

The concern of some of us all along has been IS IT the Holy Spirit that produces such manifestations as seen in that video?

You keep affirming that it is, but have produced no evidence of this.

Blessings

Jeannette

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
Littlegift, I dont mean to compare wigglesworth with copeland. I am not a copeland fan.
My point with wigglesworth was that testimony about the man that went back to make things right.
Which is to say that anybody wanting to go deeper and farther with God will enjoy a higher devotion to God.
David
Hi again, David
You said:
"My point with wigglesworth was that testimony about the man that went back to make things right."
Yes, that bit was lovely. I think I was the one who started to compare them. Copeland fan or not I still don't understand how you could think what was going on in that video was of God.

But by saying that, I'm not saying laughter and joy isn't of God, only that some isn't, and some of what isn't is devilish. It isn't always easy to distinguish between that which is demonic and that which is merely human.

No one is attacking the fact that there is also real joy and laughter in the Spirit. In fact the presence of the counterfeit proves that the genuine exists!

Jeannette

S
sermonindex


psalm1 wrote:
hmmhmm, I dont know if this helps but here is scripture:Rom 14;17 the kindom of God is not meat and drink but rightoussness peace and JJOOOYYY, in the HOLY GHOST.
Rom 15;13 now the God of hope FILL you with all JJOOOYYYY....through the power of the HOLY GHOST.
Acts13;52 And the disciples were filled with JJJOOOOYYYY and with the HOLY GHOST.
Gal 5;22 But the fruit of the spirit is love JJOOOYYY peace...............
1 theess 1;6 ........with JJOOOOYYYYY of the HOLY GHOST.
1 pETER 1;8 ............WITH JJOOOOYYY unspeakable and full of glory.
I think heaven is FULL of joy and laughter.
whats the opposite? 1st church of the lemon juice scowl? we all neeed the JOY !
Didnt paul use scripture against the church?
But then through REVELATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT he saw his "scriptural" stance was error?
just a thought
David
I'm still puzzled, why you say things like this. Of course we need the joy of the Lord. Of course heaven is full of joy, and indeed probably laughter that is an outward manifestation of the true Holy Spirit joy.

You talk as if there isn't any joy except such as you experience.

Do you [i]really[/i] imagine that the rest of us have no experience of joy? If so you are very badly mistaken.

You seem to be defending the counterfeit as well as the true, lumping them all together, and labelling those who seek to warn of false laughter as if we are rejecting the true as well! Or as if we are all long-faced killjoys, rejecting the things of the Spirit.

Maybe you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater too - only on the other side of the fence!


Jeannette

PS As mentioned in another thread, I often put a worship CD on when ironing. It's not easy to dance while ironing, but I haven't burnt myself yet! Although, because of going on 60 and unfit, I do get out of breath!! :-D

Joy?

S
sermonindex


Lotis wrote:
What im saying is are those people in the video asking God for joy or asking the devil? Because it seems to me that skeptics are suggesting they are asking God for joy, and he is giving them the devil. But alas, I am done with this convo. I am not afraid of asking Jesus for anything, because he is good to his children, if I ask him for something good, he wont give me something bad. Much love.
Oh, I see what you mean now. But how do you know for certain that the people in the video were truly seeking [i][u]God[/u][/i] for this "joy", or were they seeking blessing and joy for their own sake? Hopefully the Lord protected those of a good and sincere heart in that meeting, but what of the rest?

I'm sure almost all of them sincerely believed it was God they were seeking, but were they? Were they TRULY??? Our hearts can so easily deceive us, or wicked men may deceive us, or self-deceived men may draw us into his self-deception after him.

And sometimes, as I testified of my own experience, the Lord will allow us to be deceived, to teach us to follow Him more carefully and closely.

A Bible example, is the Israelites dancing around the Golden Calf. Many of them probably truly THOUGHT they were worshipping the Lord. Aaron actually said, "Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord". It seems as if he meant the calf to represent the true God. Yet the manner of worship, and their use of a graven image were utterly against the will of God!

Don't you see that danger, Brother?

Love in Him

Jeannette

R
running2win

it seems to me that skeptics are suggesting they are asking God for joy, and he is giving them the devil.

Not remotely. The "skeptics" are saying that these people in the video are behaving like animals at best and at worst they are (because of deception) [i]yielding[/i] themselves to satanic influence out of a skewed craving for the supernatural. Anyone can tell you that humans have an incurable fascination with the supernatural. That's why stories like those of Harry Potter are so amazingly popular. And this craving for the supernatural is precisely what brings these people into deception thinking that this is of God. Oh, they would never have anything to do with satanism. They're "christians". So they have to find some other way to get into the supernatural aside from the lifestyle that God demands. They want supernatural [i]instead[/i] of God. Well, they want God too just as long as He just leaves them alone and lets them go to heaven.

C
Compton

While the fascination with strange supernaturalism is a problem for our new age culture in general, and the Charismatic church in particular, my own interest in this conversation is only slightly motivated by this aspect. Other people are more qualified to discuss the cultish similarities of barking like a dog, clucking like chickens, and spontaneous laughing.

My concern is to make sure when we are using the term "joy", that we doing so with a good biblical view of the joy of the Lord...which I believe is much more then a mere emotional or phsycological expression.

...it seems to me that skeptics are suggesting they are asking God for joy, and he is giving them the devil.. I am not afraid of asking Jesus for anything, because he is good to his children, if I ask him for something good, he wont give me something bad.

We can remember that God will not give us a stone or a scorpion if we ask for bread. Yet have we considered that ill-suited joy for some may indeed be the very scorpion that will hurt them, though it's numbing poision is hidden from sight?

The problem I have is thinking that sudden joy---or for that matter any sudden emotional or physcological state--- is a self-authenticated sign from heaven, without the emphasis or accompaniment of repentance. And if this is a really a movement of repentance, why give it the misnomer of a laughter movement? Well, we define it as such because we have seen enough to know that the hallmark of this thing is spontaneous bouts of laughter. It is subterfuge to suggest that it is really about repentence. We can say this because the hallmark of great revivals past is that people are famously overtaken with sorrow before the Lord...and then set gloriously free, filled with the mercy and hope of God.

Now there may be some saints within this laughter movement who are looking earnestly for God and are dissapointed that critics would dismiss the experience outright. I suppose it is those people who I am thinking of when I consider this issue.

Obviously we cannot accept all joy as good. For instance, even sin itself can be euphoric, and sinners can experience euphoria. Instead we must measure the fruit of character that God has worked in us and see if there be a reason for the Joy of the Lord to be present in our lives. This diligence and sober pursuit will invariably take us through Godly sorrow, which is in contrast to the random outbursts of "joy" that occur in these so called revivals.

This is a most dire point to consider, not just in regards to 'holy laughter', but in regards to many of the fiat short-cuts being peddled in the Church today. I know first-hand the deabilitating Gospel that tries to by-pass sorrow and repentence...it produces deception. In this sense, Holy Luaghter is in the same category as easy-believism. Men are told to feel confident in their heavenly citizenship while still dressing themselves in this world's decietful garment. True enough, they may even try to put on the new man for certain occasions, but the old man has never been taken off. (He's kinda like long johns for some of us...)

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Before supporters of supernatural laughter say that I am missing the simplicity of God's joy, or that God's joy, like everything else from God comes as a free gift without a price, consider this important text from Paul in the second letter to the Corinthians.

Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while—

yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance.

For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.

At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. By all this we are encouraged.

If we are diligent we must measure the joy we have by the work of the Spirit in our lives. The devil can supply supernatural signs, but he cannot supply holiness of character. (Though the devil may rely on our ignorance of true holiness to sell us cheap and ugly religousness.) While it may be difficult to prove that all random supernatural fits of laughter are not from God...we can say with confidence that God is not looking for happier men, but better men.(...to borrow from E.M. Bounds.) So, when we see people looking for supernatural (or emotional) experiences of irrational joy, and not the spiritual changing of character brought about through repentance and sorrow, we have a right to be suspect.

Just as there is a worldly sorrow that produces death and not repentence as Godly sorrow does, there is also a worldly joy that is also not based on repentence but on enthusiasm. This kind of joy, though it be sweet for a short time, works against the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our individual lives and in the Church.

We all want the witness of God in our lives. Some believe they find it in 'supernatural' laughter. However, I have slowly learned that God manifests his life and kingdom in man not through emotional or pshycological states, but through the fruit of Christ's character in His people. For this reason I do not believe a spontaneous bout of laughter is a trustworthy signature of God's Spirit upon a man.

Blessings,

MC

H
hmmhmm

joy5479

G5479
χαρά
chara
khar-ah'
From G5463; cheerfulness, that is, [b]calm[/b] delight: - gladness, X greatly, (X be exceeding) joy (-ful, -fully, -fulness, -ous).

and in Gal 5:22 it is the same kind of Joy, its the same word. and also notice in that verse the word after joy is peace, the FRUIT of the Holt spirit is calm joy and with a peace that is like this according to Strong's

G1515
εἰρήνη
eirēnē
i-rah'-nay
Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, [b]peace, quietness, rest[/b], + set at one again.

R
running2win

However, I have slowly learned that God manifests his life and kingdom in man not through emotional or pshycological states, [b][u]but through the fruit of Christ's character in His people.[/u] For this reason I do not believe a spontaneous bout of laughter is a trustworthy signature of God's Spirit upon a man.[/b]

Well said.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


Lotis wrote:
The fruit of the laughter is joy. I have experienced it before, and obviously (I am with Psalm1) nothing could change my mind about it. The holy spirit is also our comforter, he doesn't always just make us weep and mourn.

Sadly I think I have taken to long to comment here, as it seems that you have walked away from this thread, but there are some things that stand out in the above quoted post. Firstly, at the risk of being somatic, I notice that you speak of "joy" being the "fruit of laughter", when my Bible calls it "fruit of the Spirit". I can understand one laughing as the natural result of being "joyful", but that is far different to the laughing uncontrollably, which is a sign of insanity. I can remember watching the terror in the eyes of a friend of mine, as he laughed uncontrollably while on LSD. What started out as a bit of fun, ended up as a torture.

Secondly, your reference to the Holy Spirit as "Comforter". Just a quick concordance search turns up four references. Note the context, firstly related to "truth" (Jn 14:16-17), secondly bringing Christ's words to remembrance (incidentally, I can't remember any of Christ's comments about uncontrollable laughter) (Jn 6:26). I also notice that v27 refers to peace, which is antithetical to chaos. Read into that what you will. Thirdly, He shall testify of Christ (Jn 15:26). Fourthly, "he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (Jn 16:7-11).

You may notice that the word "comfort" here carries no connotation of "softness" or "ease", but of "truth" and "courage". I don't see the reason for your reference to His comforting here. Most ignore the presence of the word "fort" in the word com[b]fort[/b]. I remember Ray Comfort referring to an old painting, with a king prodding his soldiers forward with a spear, and calling it "comforting his men".

The third thing that I observe, is the words "nothing could change my mind about it". Why do the words, "let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor 10:10) come to mind? I face this kind of logic when witnessing to atheists. They all tend to think that all Christians have been brainwashed by their parents from infanthood, and if they ever tried thinking for themselves, they'd be able to see "the delusion" for what it is.

Lotis, you seem to think that you have experienced something that we haven't. Even quoting Ravenhill's, "a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument". Have you heard him speak of Jimmy Swaggart believing that God giving him the gift of tongues was confirmation of His endorsement of his ministry? He said something to the effect of, "Every good Mormon speaks in tongues." Hardly endorsing experience as the basis of reality. The comment you quoted was not pitting experience vs. Scripture, but [b]rational logic against the Word of God, proven by experience[/b].

The thing is Lotis, many of us here have rejected what we have experienced, as being "dubious in nature" (to borrow a phrase from Art Katz).

There was no denying that something was happening in all the prayer meetings where I and others laughed as the "presence of God" [[i]sic[/i]] came upon us. I note that ten years later, one of the people who was an extreme depression sufferer, prior to participation in this phenomena, now suffers from an extreme case of dissociative identity disorder, and has lost her husband as a result of her extreme emotions. There was also no denying that something was happening the night that a pastor from the Solomon Islands prayed for me and I was pinned to the floor for an hour laughing.

I was one, as you, who defended this, in spite of having [b]no Scriptural precedent[/b]. It is funny how many of those who endorse it tell those who don't that they need to kill their "sacred cows", when they have to ignore so much of their Bible in order to justify it. It's also interesting that there is incredible comparison between what happens with this phenomena and the Israelites and the Golden Calf. After all, Aaron declared it to be "Yahweh, who led you out of Egypt", and they worshipped it with [b]emotion centered[/b] means.

The question isn't whether or not something is happening, but where the origin of that something comes from, and what its purpose is. The other question is, why any attempt to ask these questions is met with accusations of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit", at worst, or grieving Him at best? It is as if they haven't read John's exhortation to "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 Jn 4:1).

Benefit is no test of authenticity. Otherwise Anthony Robbins and all the Reiki healers must be of God. No one is trying to say that laughing is evil, but don't be mistaken, laughter doesn't equal joy. As many people hear have pointed out, Biblical joy is more of a "calm delight", which is often associated with peace. Say what you like, but I see no peace in this phenomena, but chaos.

Don't get me wrong, I am not categorically denying that this is not of God, I'm only asking questions with my God given mental faculties, that these preachers tell us to ignore, utilising the Tool that He provided for us to use while testing all things. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not here to "prove you wrong" out of any sense of superiority or arrogance, but I hope to bring a warning out of genuine concern. When people came to me, although I defended the experiences that I'd had, there was part of me that said, "What if they're right?" Take or leave what we're saying, it's up to you. No loss to me.

S
sermonindex

Compton said:

...it seems to me that sceptics are suggesting they are asking God for joy, and he is giving them the devil.. I am not afraid of asking Jesus for anything, because he is good to his children, if I ask him for something good, he won’t give me something bad.
We can remember that God will not give us a stone or a scorpion if we ask for bread. Yet have we considered that ill-suited joy for some may indeed be the very scorpion that will hurt them, though its numbing poison is hidden from sight?
I understand that there is at least one (snake) poison that gives a person a sense of euphoria just before they die!


…Now there may be some saints within this laughter movement who are looking earnestly for God and are disappointed that critics would dismiss the experience outright. I suppose it is those people who I am thinking of when I consider this issue.

Obviously we cannot accept all joy as good. For instance, even sin itself can be euphoric, and sinners can experience euphoria...For example, illicit sexual activity.

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
That’s really powerful in this context – yes, do we wear the “filthy rags” of self or do we allow Him to re-clothe us in His holiness? Then and only then will we experience true joy. It’s nothing to do with being “zapped” in a meeting, it’s to do with walking the walk in daily life, and even at times when we don’t “see” any joy whatsoever.

Do you honestly think Paul and Silas felt joyful shackled in a Philippian jail with bleeding backs form a Roman whipping? They made a conscious decision to praise and worship the Lord anyway, regardless of how they felt.

But I’m sure joy flooded into their souls as a result

And God broke their shackles and set even the jailor and his family free!

In Him

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

Aaron wrote

:
Lotis wrote:
The fruit of the laughter is joy. I have experienced it before, and obviously (I am with Psalm1) nothing could change my mind about it. The holy spirit is also our comforter, he doesn't always just make us weep and mourn.
…I can understand one laughing as the natural result of being "joyful", but that is far different to the laughing uncontrollably, which is a sign of insanity. I can remember watching the terror in the eyes of a friend of mine, as he laughed uncontrollably while on LSD. What started out as a bit of fun, ended up as a torture.
That’s exactly what I saw on that old gentleman’s face on the other KC video that I saw. He was terrified, and desperately trying to get up, but they wouldn’t let him! There was no joy on his face! I dread to think of the psychological and spiritual damage he suffered as a result.

That is why I believe that the “joy” in this particular case was nothing of the sort but a demonic thing – like being on LSD. It makes me wonder about Copeland’s salvation when he was so obviously ministering not the Holy Spirit but a demonic power that gripped its victims uncontrollably!

A friend of mine went to a meeting where people were being prayed for like this. She didn’t go out for prayer. But the visiting speaker (not Copeland) was introduced to her afterwards, and suddenly she found herself on the floor, even though he'd only greeted her.

She said she felt spiritually violated, and very angry that this had been done to her without her consent. Her husband did go out and went down (don’t know if he laughed or not). She said that for several days afterwards he seemed “odd”, something different and not right about him.

You may notice that the word "comfort" here carries no connotation of "softness" or "ease", but of "truth" and "courage". I don't see the reason for your reference to His comforting here. Most ignore the presence of the word "fort" in the word comfort. I remember Ray Comfort referring to an old painting, with a king prodding his soldiers forward with a spear, and calling it "comforting his men".
:lol: I really like that! The word “Comforter” in scripture means “one called alongside”, like an attorney in a court of law; or, as you said, like a King prodding His troops onward!

There was no denying that something was happening in all the prayer meetings where I and others laughed as the "presence of God" [sic] came upon us. I note that ten years later, one of the people who was an extreme depression sufferer, prior to participation in this phenomena, now suffers from an extreme case of dissociative identity disorder, and has lost her husband as a result of her extreme emotions.
That is dreadful! - someone already spiritually and emotionally damaged being further abused and violated.

There was also no denying that something was happening the night that a pastor from the Solomon Islands prayed for me and I was pinned to the floor for an hour laughing.

I was one, as you, who defended this,..

Thank you Brother. I don't think anyone could doubt that something is going on in such meetings, but as you said, the question is "was it of God?"

Those who have been deeply involved in this area can speak with some authority on the subject! I didn’t know you had been, as well as Krispy and probably others. I was just on the edges of this “laughter” thing, though did experience it once or twice. I'm so thankful to the Lord for protecting me from harm.

The question isn't whether or not something is happening, but where the origin of that something comes from, and what its purpose is. The other question is, why any attempt to ask these questions is met with accusations of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit", at worst, or grieving Him at best? It is as if they haven't read John's exhortation to "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 Jn 4:1).
Exactly!
Benefit is no test of authenticity. Otherwise Anthony Robbins and all the Reiki healers must be of God. No one is trying to say that laughing is evil, but don't be mistaken, laughter doesn't equal joy
The worrying thing is that some leaders are apparently actually saying that these evil occult phenomena, such as from Reiki, are of the Holy Spirit too!

in Him

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

This post I write is NOT an endorsement of any of the video's presented, nor an "argument" for anything, but just something I read from a great vessel of Christ, a Reverend John Rankin

he was writing about the "Second Awakening", which began in New England in the 1790's and spread west, and became what is known as the Cane Ridge Revival.

"A wonderful nervous affection pervaded the meetings. Some would tremble as if terribly frightened, some would have violent twitching and jerking, others would fall down suddenly as if breathless and lie there for hours. Some would laugh with a loud 'ha! ha!', others would form a ring and dance round awhile then fall back on those who stood to take care of them. There were some who would bark like dogs. Young as I was, my mind was much exercised on the subject of religion. My body too was agitated to some extent".

this young boy later went on to become a choice vessel in a great struggle to free our country of an evil sin.

here I'll wiki'ing him for you:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rankin_%28abolitionist%29]Rev John Rankin[/url]

H
hmmhmm


worm4Christ wrote:

"A wonderful nervous affection pervaded the meetings. Some would tremble as if terribly frightened, some would have [b]violent twitching and jerking[/b], others would fall down suddenly as if breathless and lie there for hours. Some would laugh with a loud 'ha! ha!', others would form a ring and dance round awhile then fall back on those who stood to take care of them. [b]There were some who would bark like dogs[/b]. Young as I was, my mind was much exercised on the subject of religion. My body too was agitated to some extent".



i tell you in the name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit dont make people twitch an jerk, the Holy Spirit NEVER does something to your body that is un-natural, The Holy Spirit never force you to do anything!

and barking as dogs thats just foolishness, can you see the apostle Paul doing that? or Peter at the day of pentecost.

it is things like this that makes God say stuff like this:

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

its becuse of things like this people have no respect for God

S
sermonindex

i tell you in the name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit dont make people twitch an jerk, the Holy Spirit NEVER does something to your body that is un-natural, The Holy Spirit never force you to do anything!

brother hmmhmm... what are your thoughts on Brownsville. I am very skeptical, however men like Steve Hill preach a solid biblical gospel so I treat it with a different approach then known false teachers.

In Christ - Jim

H
hmmhmm

i dont know i wasent there, i heard good things about it and i heard bad things about it, i listend to several of Steve Hills messages, i found them all very good, i only one time caught him saying something i would not agree with, but no big thing. And even if Steve hill preached rightly and so on, still possible people who recived the true Spirit of God, and possible some experienced some other spirit. I dont know, i do know a lot of people followed Jesus, he preached the pureest and most correct gospel of all, still many different people followed him, even one who Jesus himself said:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12882]Superficial faith by charles Leiter[/url]

S
sermonindex

easy ....slow down.

I'm not endorsing any of this, I'm not deriding any of this. I personally have never barked like a dog, nor engaged in wild laughter during an assembly, all I was doing was quoting from was what a preacher, John Rankin, saw as a young boy of 8, and what he saw was what was part of the Second Great Awakening in America, namely the meetings leading up to the Cane Ridge revival, that's all.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening]Second Great Awakening[/url]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_Ridge%2C_Kentucky]Cane Ridge[/url]

I mean, come on! Why is it with some of you guys everything's a big argument? Just religious diviseness, and nit-picking! Be careful what you proclaim in the "Name of Jesus", don't do that, don't try and box God up into some kind of religious package that you can understand, Let God be God. I can guarantee you this: if man can explain something, God isn't in it.

and who would you or any other man be to judge whether a man dancing in joy, laughing and shouting "HalleluYah!!" in the realization that Christ is Lord come to save him, so rank a sinner, is a counterfeit of the infilling of the Holy Ghost?

who are you or anybody to do that?!?

what about Nineveh, and when Jonah came to them with the Word? what do you think they did?....what do you think King David did when God blessed the people of Israel with the return of the Ark....mumble "praise God, now please turn to hymn 137"? NO! He stripped down to his undies and danced in the Joy of the Lord, all while his very own wife looked upon him with scorn, the daughter of Saul no less.

please brother, I didn't post that up to get into some fruitless argument with you over the manifestations of God in revival.

No offense, but maybe what Sweden could use is a little Holy Ghost Fire burning away the ice, dance' laugh, sing, in the Knowledge that Christ is Lord.

come on brother, I'm not trying to argue with you. I was just sharing, that's all.

H
hmmhmm

ohh brother, i dont want divide anything, except i want to hold on to the truth. You are right we in sweden would need some Holy Ghost fire, not sure about the dancing part, there are a lot of dancing and singing all over sweden, what we need is a spirit filled man like Peter who can preach so that people will be pricked at their hearts and cry out : what must we do to be saved,

im just saying, if singing hymns is so boring to people that they need some "new" thing, if they can glorify God by barking as dogs so be it, To me that is just...... unfit for a child of the most high eternal God.

and i say again that the Holy Spirit never makes a man do what is un-natural. Dancing in the spirit thats wonderful, singing , praising God, shout to the Lord all thease things can be found in scripture and have their place.

and im not boxing God in, but to me it seems some people take God and just went of the edge of the cliff and dont even notice.

anything goes! as long as it "feels Good" lets call it a move of God.

im leaving this thread now, it has been discussed and proved to the point where it almost becomes silly,

Live to glorify HIM, for HIS glory for ever and ever

Christian

S
sermonindex

im leaving this thread now, it has been discussed and proved to the point where it almost becomes silly

Leave the thread, sure....but "silly"?

okay, but do me the love of at least reading the links I posted, i.e. some of the history of revival in America, I posted that for our mutual edification, not to be proved "right".

S
sermonindex


worm4Christ wrote:
This post I write is NOT an endorsement of any of the video's presented, nor an "argument" for anything, but just something I read from a great vessel of Christ, a Reverend John Rankin

he was writing about the "Second Awakening", which began in New England in the 1790's and spread west, and became what is known as the Cane Ridge Revival.

"A wonderful nervous affection pervaded the meetings. Some would tremble as if terribly frightened, some would have violent twitching and jerking, others would fall down suddenly as if breathless and lie there for hours. Some would laugh with a loud 'ha! ha!', others would form a ring and dance round awhile then fall back on those who stood to take care of them. There were some who would bark like dogs. Young as I was, my mind was much exercised on the subject of religion. My body too was agitated to some extent".

this young boy later went on to become a choice vessel in a great struggle to free our country of an evil sin.

here I'll wiki'ing him for you:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rankin_%28abolitionist%29]Rev John Rankin[/url]

Never heard of John Rankin, (but I never heard of Art Katz either, until joining SI!)
Mmmm There are various possibilities re these things.

1. The whole thing - including the barking - could be of God, a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. That I don't believe. Such grotesque and distressing manifestations are not in line with what we know of His nature, as was said.

2. It could be that the Holy Spirit is present in such power that [i][u]demons[/u][/i] manifest themselves in the laughing, shaking, barking etc. In a similar way, in the Gospels, the demonised man cried out in the synagogue when Jesus was present, or the epileptic boy was thrown down by the demon (I'm certain that not all epilepsy is demonic, but this was) as he was brought to Jesus.

This is certainly possible. But why then do people like Kenneth Copeland say that these manifestations are of the Holy Spirit, when they are clearly not?

3. There is a powerful demonic presence in the meeting where these things happpen, which allows demons to manifest.

Again this is possible. From the video, I would say this is the most likely explantaion.

4. These manifestations are merely HUMAN reactions to what is going on spiritually.

Again this might sometimes be the case - if you expect to fall down etc then you most likely will!

It's interesting that John Rankin makes no judgement either way on what he thought waas happening - not surprising if he was a young boy at the time.

I'm being terribly "intellectual" here, but maybe this might help us to decide what we think is going on (if we haven't already decided!)

David, can you see these are all possibilities? The plea for discernment is still present.

in Him

Jeannette

H
hmmhmm


Leave the thread, sure....but "silly"?

okay, but do me the love of at least reading the links I posted, i.e. some of the history of revival in America, I posted that for our mutual edification, not to be proved "right".

i will read them brother, forgive me for poor vacabulary in english, i have few words so sometimes i choose poorly......

S
sermonindex


worm4Christ wrote:
easy ....slow down...

...come on brother, I'm not trying to argue with you. I was just sharing, that's all.

Hey Worm, this just blesses me so much, and makes me laugh too (just ordinary human laughter, no mockery ;-)) because I was exhorting [i]you[/i] on another thread to calm down!

So glad that you can be calm and reasonable too, even when others are getting a bit excited.

Maybe it depends what subject gets us going! I'm sure I can be unreasonable and excited too - depends what pulls our strings.

Haven't we [i]all[/i] got a lot to learn!

And isn't the Lord patient with us! 8-)

Blessings

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

didnt realize that, your English is really good, a lot better than my Swedish..... :-)

God bless you dear one.

S
sermonindex


worm4Christ wrote:
...I mean, come on! Why is it with some of you guys everything's a big argument? Just religious diviseness, and nit-picking! .
I think it was because a couple of those on the thread were defending things that clearly were NOT of God, (such as what was going on in the video) and began verbally attacking those who said so!

And of course, that set up a chain reaction.

BUT, this subject is vital to discuss. Not to get into name-calling and petty argument for its own sake (which does so easily happen - you are right there) but because of the great danger of deception in the Church in these days.

Be careful what you proclaim in the "Name of Jesus", don't do that, don't try and box God up into some kind of religious package that you can understand, Let God be God. I can guarantee you this: if man can explain something, God isn't in it
I don't think that's quite the issue Brother. But you are right that there is the [i]opposite[/i] error from "anything goes", or "if it feels good it must be God".

There is the danger of two errors here, not one. Some of us see one error clearly, others see the other. But we need to beware of both.

There is such a need for discernment in these areas. We must not accept every manifestation as being from the Holy Spirit; but neither must we quench the Spirit, or try to "put God in a box"

...what do you think King David did when God blessed the people of Israel with the return of the Ark....mumble "praise God, now please turn to hymn 137"? NO! He stripped down to his undies and danced in the Joy of the Lord, all while his very own wife looked upon him with scorn, the daughter of Saul no less...

...dance' laugh, sing, in the Knowledge that Christ is Lord.

That is so true! Yet the issue is not to do with things like that, but whether it's OK to bark like dogs, roll on the floor in uncontrollable, and in some cases horrible "LSD-style" laughter or go into a catatonic state when touched by a particular "gifted" human being, thinking that through these things we are blessed?

I don't see how this is the same as David dancing in worship and making a fool of himself before the Lord.

Apparently it was the custom, on the arrival of a great person, especially a king, for someone to do this kind of "half-naked, buffoon dancing" in their honour.

What David was saying was, "I may be a king to man's eyes, but I'm really only worthy to be the Lord's court jester!"

He was really humbling himself, making himself look an idiot before his subjects. That was why Michel despised him.

If anyone saw me dance when ironing they would think I looked stupid too!

Who cares, as long as we are truly worshipping the Lord. Which is the point you are making, isn't it...

Blessings

Jeannette

C
CJaKfOrEsT


worm4Christ wrote:
"A wonderful nervous affection pervaded the meetings. Some would tremble as if terribly frightened, some would have violent twitching and jerking, others would fall down suddenly as if breathless and lie there for hours. Some would laugh with a loud 'ha! ha!', others would form a ring and dance round awhile then fall back on those who stood to take care of them. There were some who would bark like dogs. Young as I was, my mind was much exercised on the subject of religion. My body too was agitated to some extent".

Thus reminds me of a sermon that I heard from by J Edwin Orr, [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=141]Monday #1 Revivals in the Late 1700's[/url], from his Revival series preached at Wallace Memorial Church in 1983. He speaks of barking around the 24min mark. It would be a good idea to listen to the whole sermon, but this is the specific citation.

_
_M2_

There is such a need for discernment in these areas. We must not accept every manifestation as being from the Holy Spirit; but neither must we quench the Spirit, or try to "put God in a box"

That is so true! Yet the issue is not to do with things like that, but whether it's OK to bark like dogs, roll on the floor in uncontrollable, and in some cases horrible "LSD-style" laughter or go into a catatonic state when touched by a particular "gifted" human being, thinking that through these things we are blessed?

Yes jeanette

C
Compton

worm4Christ wrote:
...I mean, come on! Why is it with some of you guys everything's a big argument? Just religious diviseness, and nit-picking!

I think to dismiss the objections carefully articulated here as nothing more then "religious diviseness, and nit-picking" is being remiss. It could equally be said that the Church is too complacent of error and abuse because it seems everything is permissable today.

And so, in weariness, indifference, and disregard of scriptures, we just shrug our shoulders at one another, and go our own ways. Yes, sometime divisiveness is demonstrated by sectarian argument, but the deepest division in the Church today is individual apathy towards one another.

MC

J
jarona

WOW

S
sermonindex

Who cares, as long as we are truly worshipping the Lord. Which is the point you are making, isn't it...


yes.

.........(smile)........

My sister, there is so much in error today,so much wrong, in the church, in the world, that in my humble walk, I don't even focus on such as the subject of this thread, my prayer is that any who are drawn to Christ from such ministries seek what is good, mature in Christ and come to realize that there is no disorder in Christ.

What grieves me today is that fact that billions of women and children across the globe don't have clean drinking water. If the Church in the Name of Christ labored to provide this basic element of life, then those living in darkness, would know what Living Waters He provides, because they would have a CHANCE to witness His love thru our hands, and our labors.

That is what the Holy Ghost has been shaping and speaking in my heart, that's all.

Lord love you

S
sermonindex

We're all for feeding the hungry and all that James mentions is "real" faith, but if we give them a false doctrine, it's like "feeding" them a drop of arsenic in with their drinking water.

The "Lord loves us" whether we agree on this thread or not.
____________________________________________

Anyways, I can't get audio or video on this thing, so could someone tell me if this video this thread is about is the #2 on this list here ....

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html#khagin


Thanks!

S
sermonindex

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

This scripture is why the body of believers as a whole are so ineffective. No unity at all.
Man is imperfect, God is perfect.

S
sermonindex


MC said:

I think to dismiss the objections carefully articulated here as nothing more then "religious diviseness, and nit-picking" is being remiss. It could equally be said that the Church is too complacent of error and abuse because it seems everything is permissable today.

And so, in weariness, indifference, and disregard of scriptures, we just shrug our shoulders at one another, and go our own ways. Yes, sometime divisiveness is demonstrated by sectarian argument, [b]but the deepest division in the Church today is individual apathy towards one another[/b].

Mike,

I had picked up Leanne Payne's 'The Healing Presence' again, and understood the snippet I read far better than the first time I'd read the book. She talked about the need for healing of our separations from both God and people - and between parts of ourselves.

I have to admit, your comment above, (emboldened by me), had started me thinking, but I am numb enough to have to say it had not exactly [i]stung[/i]; or perhaps my practised objectivity protected me from such a dangerous vulnerability. At any rate, your (as usually) articulate expression of a truth - perhaps [i]this[/i] truth flagged here was slightly unexpectable - is a welcome breath of fresh air and living water simultaneously, and definitely connected with my spirit.

Combined with RobertW's recent post in Articles and Sermons, called The Gathering and Gatherer of the Saints, there is more than food for thought here. We have to eat (all) this truth and let it work change in us.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17896&forum=34&3]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17896&forum=34&3[/url]

Thank you for sharing your bread. May the word of the Lord multiply in our hands.

C
Christinyou

Anyways, I can't get audio or video on this thing, so could someone tell me if this video this thread is about is the #2 on this list here ....

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html#khagin--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Hagin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Plagiarism, Kenyon And Links To Word-Faith Unknown Compiler, 1995 Essek William Kenyon plagiarized Kenneth E. Hagin, Sr. and held to virtually the same Word-Faith teachings. These are two men who were influences on the current Toronto "Blessing"/Brownsville "Revival" phenomenon.

(2) Kenneth Hagin - Serpant Power at The Interactive Bible, 1998
For an clear picture of one of the main influences of the Third Wave, take a real video and audio visit to RHEMA where Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland balspheme God, laugh demonically, roll around on the floor, hiss like snakes, make animal noises, and tell people that the disciples were drunk at Pentecost. This sickening display is also available on video from Paw Creek Ministries.

(3) Kenneth Hagin - False Prophet by Rev. Robert S. Liichow, 1998 "Mr. Hagin has long been touted as a prophet by many within the charismatic movement for years. Without a doubt, all people within the Word of Faith Movement look to Mr. Hagin as a genuine prophet of God. The facts seem to indicate otherwise! Here are three examples of Hagin's prophetic ability - all of which failed to come to pass."

(4) Kenneth Hagin - Another Failed Prophesy by Contenders, 1999 "Another Failed Prophecy! Kenneth Hagin Prophecy For October In July Kenneth Hagin issued a prophecy which indicates that the great revival everyone has been waiting for will begin in October after "that which has hindered shall be taken out of the way." Does this mean the removal of the critics, the rapture of the church, the "cleansing" that New Agers have spoken of? You decide."

(5) The Counterfeit Dreams and Visions of "Prophet" Kenneth Hagin by Rev. Robert Liichow, Discernment Ministry International, 1998
"Kenneth E. Hagin is the acknowledged "father" of the modern Word of Faith Movement and is viewed by charismatic Christians globally as a true prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ. Kenneth Hagin has been active in ministry since the late 1930's and worked around the fringes of the Pentecostal healing revival of the 1940's through late 1950's.

(6) Word-Faith Founder Kenneth Hagin Sr. Dies 9/23/03 by Sandy Simpson, 9/03
Hagin is responsible for bringing the cult of Word-Faith into mainstream Christianity, while most Christian leaders stood by and let it happen. This is why we are plagued by his followers like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Rodney Howard-Browne, Creflo Dollar and thousands of others today.

In Christ: Phillip

L
Lotis

I love you all so much. You don't like the laughing, ok. I still love you. I'm not going to hell because God made me laugh, if these people are going to hell because a devil made them laugh, lets go talk to them, rather than rip each other apart. I feel so in love right now with Jesus, that I can say, perhaps you are right about this video, I don't know, I wasn't there. Lets start loving each other and loving deceived people, rather than taking each others posts apart sentence by sentence and pointing out whats wrong. We can't agree, oh well, lets back down and give each other a hug, I'll go first. *Hugs you all*

T
Tears_of_joy

Anyways, I can't get audio or video on this thing, so could someone tell me if this video this thread is about is the #2 on this list here ....

You can get the video from [url=http://www.prozoretz.bg/Kennet_Hagin.wmv]here[/url].

I love you all so much. You don't like the laughing, ok. I still love you. I'm not going to hell because God made me laugh, if these people are going to hell because a devil made them laugh, lets go talk to them, rather than rip each other apart. I feel so in love right now with Jesus, that I can say, perhaps you are right about this video, I don't know, I wasn't there. Lets start loving each other and loving deceived people, rather than taking each others posts apart sentence by sentence and pointing out whats wrong. We can't agree, oh well, lets back down and give each other a hug, I'll go first. *Hugs you all*

Hey brother John (Lotis), thank you for the hugs, but we must be aware, real love is not some emotional outpourings. Real love goes with truth.
These are very serious things brother, many of these practicies are burnt out of hell itself. We desperately need prophets of God with spirit of discernment to preach the truth! And of course we like laughing, but we are talking here about deathly serious matters on which we need right understanding and support from the Scriptures. These are not simply matters on which we can say "we just don't agree". These men pleasing preachings and practices are different from the authentic Christianity like the hell and heaven.

I thank God for the watchmen like brother David, here you can watch preaching about these strange things:

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=VgYtobeizJw&mode=related&search=]David Wilkerson on "Holy" Laughter[/url]

Please watch this!

S
sermonindex


Tears_of_joy wrote:


[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=VgYtobeizJw&mode=related&search=]David Wilkerson on "Holy" Laughter[/url]

Please watch this!


I have heard Kathryn Kuhlman acknowledge Holy Laughter,

[url=http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID0911.mp3]Baptism in the Holy Spirit[/url]

This woman had a love for Souls.
A love for Jesus, and far greater level of the Holy Spirit in her meetings than Wilkerson. No offense, I see what Wilkerson was saying, but that is just one case of Holy Laughter. Should you call all holy laughter bad for the extreme case? I feel your placing the Holy Spirit in a Box. This cannot be done, and I pray the Holy Spirit himself convict you all in these matters. I feel sorry for you all.

S
seanjol

I feel your placing the Holy Spirit in a Box.

Is making sure that what the Holy Spirit does is in accordance to the written word putting Him in a box? This is a statement that most cults use. Jesus said " I can do nothing of myself. I do the will of my Father."

Paul wrote to the Corinthian churches about their excesses "in the Spirit." Was he putting the Holy Spirit in a box then as well, even under inspiration?

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15

No, examining a "movement" of the Spirit and lining it up to scripture is not putting the Holy Spirit in a box is following the Holy Spirit inspired word of God by rightly dividing the word of truth.

Saying that you feel sorry for us all who won't agree with "holy laughtera" is somewhat sanctimonious.

ce4 wrote:


Tears_of_joy wrote:


[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=VgYtobeizJw&mode=related&search=]David Wilkerson on "Holy" Laughter[/url]

Please watch this!


I have heard Kathryn Kuhlman acknowledge Holy Laughter,

[url=http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID0911.mp3]Baptism in the Holy Spirit[/url]

This woman had a love for Souls.
A love for Jesus, and far greater level of the Holy Spirit in her meetings than Wilkerson. No offense, I see what Wilkerson was saying, but that is just one case of Holy Laughter. Should you call all holy laughter bad for the extreme case? I feel your placing the Holy Spirit in a Box. This cannot be done, and I pray the Holy Spirit himself convict you all in these matters. I feel sorry for you all.

S
sermonindex


ce4 wrote:
Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

This scripture is why the body of believers as a whole are so ineffective. No unity at all.
Man is imperfect, God is perfect.

Light cannot have true fellowship with darkness. The issue isn't one of unity or disunity among Christians but of dividing rightly between that which is of God and that which is not.

What was God's (and Moses') reaction when the people (HIS people) danced around the Golden Calf?

Nothing wrong with singing, dancing, rejoicing, but which god are we truly worshipping when we do so?

In other words, which god was REALLY being honoured in that video?

THAT is the issue!


Jeannette

_
_M2_

Quote Real love goes with truth.

Ce4 this is correct and you should heed to it, I never met someone more Sensitive, God fearing and full of the Holy ghost then Katheryn Khulman, and let us not forget Benny Hinn.

In any case I will watch the video, and judge it for myself.

Question is after the laughter what do you do? You do what God has called you to do?

Quote “The Lordl loves us”
It’s not about the lord loving you. I don’t know, let me see if I can break this down for you.

John 21: 15-19

After breakfast Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more then these?”

“Yes Lord”, Peter replied, “you know I love you”.

“Then feed my lambs,” Jesus told him.
Jesus repeated the question: “Simon son
of John, do you love me?”

“Yes, Lord,” Peter said, “you know I love
you.”

“then take care of my sheep,” Jesus said.
Once more he asked him, “Simon son of
John, do you love me?”
Peter was grieved that Jesus asked the question a third time.
He said, “Lord, you know everything.
You know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Then feed my sheep. The truth is, when you were young, you were able to do as you liked and go wherever you wanted to. But when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and others will direct you and take you where you don’t want to go.”

Jesus said this to let him know what kind of death he would die to glorify God.
Then Jesus told him, “Follow me”.

……..(Smile)……..

I caught a glimpse of your smile once, and was impressed at that. The problem is that you didn’t know who you were smiling at. God has a way of doing this you know bringing smiles together in a Discering Spiritual kind of way, Oh I don’t know, I don’t know perhaps you can callit Purpose//Destiny in the Kingdom of God with Power flowing in the Unction of the Holy Spirit with Miracles, Signs, and Wonders following.

You know feeding them the Word, calling those things that are not as though they were, as though they are, as though they are going to be, you get the picture.

James 1:20 Your anger can never make things right in God’s sight.

James 2:15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who needs food or clothing, and you say,
”Well, good-bye and God bless you; stay warm and eat well” but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
So you see, it isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is not faith at all – it is dead and useless.
Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deed.” I say, “I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I show you my faith through my good deeds.”

Who told you that you need to give your money to a pastor, who told you that? Give your money to the poor, sell all that you have and give your money to the poor. The next time that you are in Church try asking the Holy Spirit living inside of you who in the church has a need and help meet that need, go up to them and love them by your deeds and watch the heavens open with a witness “WELL DONE MY GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT” “Well done”. Then tell me if Revival does not breakforth.

I am no longer there, so do what you need to do it takes a willing heart out of (Free Will) a willing heart coming together in unity can accomplish a lot, Great Exploits can come out of this for the Kingdom of God, nations can be touched all over the World with a Witness that Jesus is alive, that he is able and willing being the same yesterday, today and forever more.

……..Smile…….. and you didn’t know who you were smiling at.

When I was Hungry you gave me nothing to eat
When I was Thirsty you gave me nothing to drink,

The disciples asked Jesus, "Lord, when did we see you Hungry and When did we see you thirsty? The Lord Jesus replied, when you do this for the least of them you are doing it as unto me.

_
_M2_


Please, do not misunderstand me nor my zeal and be merciful when judging me if and only if the Lord leads you in that direction with mercy.

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 147 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate