Tithing is not a Old Testament Law !

Hi All,I’m not sure if I posted this in the right place or not, but this is in reply to whither or not tithing is a New Testament commandment or not?I have been reading in the posts and was shocked to see so many believe that the issue of tithing was an O.T. Commandment, and that it’s not for us today.Let’s get the record straight. :-)First when did we first read about this tithing business?Genesis 14:17-20 Then after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley). [18] And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. [19] He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; [20] And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand?" He gave him a tenth of all. We can see plainly that Abraham was the first to give God 10% or the tithes. For Tithes the word means "tenth, or 10 %”So this practice was way before you see it in the O.T. Covenant. For this took place over 400 years early. Remember that Israel didn’t come into existence until they were free from the Egyptians. And for all you bible students out there, you also will know that Melchizedek was a type of Christ. Let us establish this tithing issue even further. :-)Let’s take a look at what the Apostle Paul teaches.Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, [2] to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. Hebrews 7:4-6 Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils. [5] And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham. [6] But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises. Now what Paul is saying is this, That even the Father of our faith Abraham paid Tithes to Melchizedek, Also note that he said “sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham." In other words, that those who were in Abraham also paid the tithes to God. Now I would say this, yes we are not under the Old Covenant anymore very true. But we are the seeds of Abraham, According to:Galatians 3:6-7 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. [7] Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. If we believe God, then we are the sons of Abraham. Alto we are Sons by Faith and Not sons of Natural seed. The Sons by Faith carry a greater importance than those of the natural seed. Even Jesus says the same thing in John 8:39-44 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. [40] "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. [41] "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." [42] Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. [43] "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. [44] "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Jesus said to the natural seed of Abraham that their father was the devil. In other words, that ONLY those who have the faith of Abraham were considered the sons of Abraham.So it is very clear that the seeds of Abraham should believe as Abraham. And as for paying tithes it is a Big YES. Abraham paid the tithes in respect and Love, the Jews were forced to pay, and it was a law because they were a disobedient people. Almost in everything they were always being disobedient to God. Jeremiah 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction. He had to write the LAW because of there iniquities. Galatians 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Who do you want to be like, Abraham, or the Jews?Thanks for reading thisDarylwww.dfcm.org

In another thread on the subject, one of the moderators posted this link:http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_tithe.htmlHow do you respond to the argument therein?2 Corinthians 9:7As every man purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly or out of compulsion; for God loveth the cheerful giver. Personally, I agree with a quote from D.L. Moody (posted by another moderator, actually) that: "the Old Testament rule for giving was 10% but the New Testament rule is 100%"

Tithing was viewed in the Old Testament as a sacrifice. Christ has done away with all those sacrifices.

Hi Keith,As I clearly stated in my post, Tithing was before the Old Covenant was even created. As for the link you sent me. Yes what he is saying is true, as long as you keep it in context to the old testament. AS for the verse Deutron. if you finish reading it. it states that "if you were to far a way to bring your tithes to where the lord choses, then you shall sell it for money and buy your hearts deisre, oxen, etc... and spend it ...." The purpose of this is to communion with their Covenant God.but i will say again. Tithing is not an Old Testament Law. It was in play before the old testament. Also to the Authors note in the book of Acts, about people selling their goods. Note when one cheats the Lord, they are put to death for lieing about the amount of money the land was sold for. If it was what he claims in his statement. Then it really wouldnt matter what they sold it for huh?God Bless

Hi Preaching,Thanks for the Post, How many times are we told in the N.T. to be a Abraham? That is the main focus of Pauls teaching. As I have clearly shown that tithing was way before the Old Covenant was even made. It did not end when the old testament ended. If im not mistaken, you will see in 1 Cor. that Paul himself tell them to lay up there wages weekly for he will come and get them. 1 Cor. 16:1-2 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. [2] Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. I now its hard to believe, but tithing is a major part of our Covenant with God in this New Testament. For we reap what we sow.God Bless

Thanks for the Post, How many times are we told in the N.T. to be a Abraham? That is the main focus of Pauls teaching. Then according to your logic, we should still be keeping circumcision.As I have clearly shown that tithing was way before the Old Covenant was even made.So? They offered animal sacrifices as well. Also remember, Noah was able to disceriminate from clean and unclean animals, prior to the giving of the law. And there were various dietary laws as well. So, why don't you keep these things as well?

If im not mistaken, you will see in 1 Cor. that Paul himself tell them to lay up there wages weekly for he will come and get them.1 Cor. 16:1-2Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. [2] Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.Hmm... according to how tithing is taught today, the "collection" would have been for the leadership of that local Corinthian church, not Paul and the other churches he wanted to distribute it to, and it would've stayed in that house. This is hardly Paul teaching tithing. It's simply a gift for helping others in need.

Hi Preaching,lol, No, you missed the part in the bible where it says that He was concered Rightounes when he believed God, not the circumcision. here ill post it for you.Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Galatians 3:6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. So see circumcision was only a sign, infact is was only a sign of the Covenant with God. It never counted for salvation.And as for Noah, Yes he did bring the offerings, but if you read your bible correcty, you will clearly see Noah was making a covenant with God. Thats why those animals were offered. Also with your way of thinking, Noah was not circumcised either, and we was counted as rightouness. :-)God Bless

hum, how do you take " I have given Order to the Chruch of Glatatia, even so do Ye" ?Now don't get me wrong, I believe that the people of God should give 10% to their local church where they attend. I am totally against all this begging and crying that is going on to get money. And i totally agree with the scripture quotes that talks about making a profit from the ministry, but to say tithing is not an issue today, is against the word of God.looks its plain from your posts that you are totaly against this tithing thing.Thats fine you want to believe this view. but to post it so other can be influenced by it is another thing. God Bless

Thats fine you want to believe this view. but to post it so other can be influenced by it is another thing. That statement has implications you may not at first realize.First, if he shouldn't post his view so others can be influenced by it, you shouldn't either.Second, this kind of argument is dangerously close to a common response made by relativistic atheists, who say that there is no absolute truth: "By keeping the words 'under God' in the pledge of allegiance*, you are imposing your morality and truth on others, and you are wrong to do so."The response is the same. Logically, you have to enforce a viewpoint on the issue. Something can be either white or black, or even a shade of grey, but it must still be some pigment. Using your logic, the thing must be able to cease to exist, if you follow me. A statement must either be true or false, and can even be half-true, but can never be neither partially true nor partially false. If I said that the sky was grey, that would be a half-truth because the sky is sometimes grey; but you cannot make a statement about the sky that is neither partially true nor partially false. This logic violates the law of the excluded middle.*or whatever they're arguing, this is merely an example.

I am in agreement with DFCM in terms of the practice of tithing. As he so clearly pointed out that Melchizedec was given a tenth by Abraham, and we are of the same faith as Abraham, thus this precept is before us. Do we obey or not is the question. In the other thread, I had read what Mike had posted. Concerning Deuteronomy 14:22-29 and webpage article, I was momentarily swayed without giving much thought to the matter. My deceitful heart wanted to be swayed by these thoughts. I had just left the fellowship and stopped tithing. But thanks to DFMC, I went back to Scripture. The love of the truth will show you the condition of your heart. In Deut 14, the faithful are required to give a tenth. The interesting part is for what purpose. First, it is to be a time of worshiping and thanking the Lord for His provisions. Secondly, it is to take care of the fatherless, widows, and the Levite. So how does it pretain to today. It still causes one to look at his own heart condition. In this past week I found my heart to be deceitful. Secondly, there are abuses by the Levites of today. Where are their hearts. Again I would like to post a comment on this issue written by Art Katz:The Lord’s Coming Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation’ (2 Peter 3:3-4). The Lord’s coming is a critical doctrine, and one that must not stand in isolation from other doctrines. To mock, or scoff, at His coming is to scoff at everything . It is to mock the faith and the word of God itself. Mocking is a contemptuous, contemptible attitude, and we can be mockers and not even know it. We can mock by something in our spirit that is not expressed in our words, but just by the way we carry or bear ourselves. For example, making careful and meticulous provision for our retirement, or looking forward to a long life, is in effect scoffing against the known doctrine of the coming of the Lord. Another example would be church groups in the perpetuating of their own institutions, which are scoffing against the coming of the Lord by making every kind of provision for His not coming. By the same token, the erecting of multi-million dollar church buildings is not the statement of a people who are looking toward a soon-coming end ?a Lord who is ‘at the door’ and who is coming with Last Days’ devastation and judgment. We will not be able to enjoy our concrete or glass palaces then. Our building programs are a statement that we are not “looking for His appearing,” but if one were to suggest to the authorities of that fellowship that that is scoffing, they would be aghast, because they subscribe to the doctrine of the Lord’s coming— but only as a doctrine . There is a difference between holding a doctrine and existential expectation. It is not the mere holding of doctrines that distinguishes us as the Church, but rather, do we have an actual apocalyptic expectation of an end? Is it such a pulsating reality for us that our plans for our retirement and for the future are radically affected? The use of our money and time is directly related to what we believe with regard to a soon-coming end, and if our conduct in our use of time and money contradict the doctrine of the Lord’s coming, then we are, in effect, for the most part scoffing .In the early Church, those who had houses and land sold them and laid the proceeds at the feet of the apostles. They thought, “I do not need this. The Lord is at the door. The end is near. Why am I clutching my possessions? I will make my goods available now so that there might not be any who has need.” They believed that the end was near. They had an apocalyptic expectancy and lived in that expectancy as being the logic of the faith. ...in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts...(v.3) Our theological positions are more regulated by and related to the gratification of our bodily lusts than they are to our intellect ?though we are not likely conscious of it. If we were to examine the moral condition of our lives, we would find out why it is we have so little faith. Lust has an enormous power to dull the mind and spirit to the truths of God, even so much as to shut out the issue of eternity. A lust is by nature a desire, and there is a world of difference between a legitimate desire, an earthly need, and a desire that God looks upon as a lust that will affect our theological and doctrinal expectations. In these verses, Peter is speaking about believers in the Last Days who will mock and scoff, and the reason for their scoffing is that they do not expect His coming. Their view of the faith and their expectation of His coming have been corrupted by their lust and by desires that are not legitimate. This is critical for us because the world has become very expert in its power to tempt us to indulge in desires of every kind. In times past, there were things hardly considered to be valid as needs. But today, many desires are looked upon as needs, and people will sacrifice whatever it takes to get these “needs” met. But they are really lusts that have been legitimized by the world of commerce. It is a powerful force, and we need to careful to identify the difference. The difference between a legitimate desire and a lust is its origin. Does it come from below or above? The fact that it is permissible to drink Coca-Cola all you want, even before breakfast, does not make it godly. Just because it is freely available does not legitimize that desire. Do we submit our desires before the Lord? Is He the Lord of those things that we think small and insignificant, particularly in this merchandising world? There is a whole realm of things pertaining to lifestyle that have been made legitimate in our minds because of their availability but for which there are spiritual consequences for our lifestyle. Our faith is profoundly affected by our lifestyle, and we need to be free from the lifestyle that the world would impose upon us, convincing us that it is legitimate and normal. Our lifestyle and the issue of self-denial are contrary in every point to the spirit of the age, which is characterized by self-gratification, not self-denial. The mere availability of something does not make that thing right. Though it may seem innocent in itself, the indulgence in it opens the way for other things, and the full and final effect is to dull our hearts toward the things of God."Tithing is a heart issue. Jesus says something to the effect of; you can not serve two masters. We must look to God's ways of discerning the conditions of our hearts.In ChristJeff

Hi Jeff,Thanks for your thoughts. Funny, I think we are in agreement in the bottom line here. That it is a heart issue. I still think there is a misunderstanding of how this is applied today.I am still grappling with this and went back and read again the earliest references to tithing and onward into the passages in Deut (actually ver 12 as well as through 14).Part of the confusion as I see it through these weak eyes is that as a 'law' or how it was to be appropriated in the Old Testament cannot logically be carried over into the New Testament as a stand alone part away from the whole. We no longer stone those who worship idols nor do we kill bulls on our front lawns (to borrow from the article).The biggest problem I see is how it is being bandied about in Christendom today, neglecting all that has been said before in scriptures to it's purpose and function and extracting the parts that are likable to form an incomplete doctrine, such as the now famous passage from Malachi.By bringing these issues to the forefront, the instant reaction seems to be one of drawing a line in the sand and propositioning a "for or against" mentality.Again, I do not have a full and complete understanding of this and stand ready to be corrected. It just seems that in it's present form as taught by many, it is sloppy and careless at best and often abused to lay guilt upon people. I have a book around here from someone that spoke at my old church that went pretty in depth about much of this and I was following right along until he started scripture jumping and in effect pronounced a curse on those who do not give to God. It may not always go to that extreme but the insinuations are there.But for all that, I hearken back to Mr. Hannagraff who said something to the effect of tithing being "a good starting point".I have 'tithed' over the years and never had a problem with it nor do I now as it pertains to giving, I am not boasting, I love to give, I love to do it in secret (well, there goes that one) 10%, I don't see that as being some kind of requirement, I see it as 'that's all?' Why would I want to be 'held' to some kind of prescription.It seems that when the believers laid all of their possessions at the feet of the apostles it was pretty spontaneous, don't recall anyone prompting them to do so, seems it was just a natural reaction to the joy of being saved from their sin, and outflow of what was in their hearts.As I mentioned before, what is going on in believers hearts? Why wouldn't you want to give?Why all this teaching, all this going backward?My hunch is that at the root of a lot of these problems is the poor way the gospel is being presented these days. In a lot of ways, because of my ignorance I fell victim to a lot of 'easy believeism' and had to unlearn quite a bit and why I found it so refreshing to find here the hard truths, the ones that nobody wants to preach anymore. Not because they are condemning as some would like to think but because the gospel has become so compromised as to have little effect on the hearts of the unconverted.Being that Jesus came to fulfill the law, if anything more is required than a 'tithe' and if our hearts are truly changed it is not a requirement at all. How can we not give back more out of gratitude for the love He has shown us?I turn over the soap box to you all.In loveMike

Mike, I sure am glad stoning is not around. I would have never made it to the age of 40 and to Jesus. I agree with the idea that man teaching his brother that he must tithe is questionable, especially when the money's are used to promote man and his carnal ways. I also believe the precept of the tithe is given to all who are faithful. The outcome of giving a tithe, I believe is what God wants to teach us about. The importance is not place on the sacrifice, but on the fruit of the work. The fruit of the giving is meant to focus our attention on the aspects of His kingdom. We men pollute His Holy law with our ways of self-exaultation. As you ended, In love may we find His will for our lives.In ChristJeff

Hi Darylyou write We can see plainly that Abraham was the first to give God 10% or the tithes. For Tithes the word means "tenth, or 10 %”This is true, but did you notice that tithing was never commanded before the Law. Both Abraham and later Jacob offered tithes, but in each case it was a voluntary offering and not the result of a commandment. They were not obliged but chose to do so.A Christian may choose to imitate Abraham and Jacob but we are certainly under no such obligation.

I sure am glad stoning is not around. I would have never made it to the age of 40 and to Jesus.He got me before 20, but I still wouldn't have made it.Again, I'm not against it being the Christian's responsiblity to give 10% of his income (indeed, his responsibility might be more like 90-95% depending on his income and justifiable expenses), nor do I have any problem with calling a failure to fulfill this (or any other God-given) responsibility "sin."I was reading John Wesley's sermon on dress yesterday, it had some very good points on financial responsibility: http://wesley.nnu.edu/JohnWesley/sermons/088.htmMy questions are:1) Is it still theologically correct to call it "tithing," i.e. is it really the old practice literally carried over?2) Is it expected of someone who makes so little that they can't even afford food for themselves? My point is that the Church would have to give money to them to cover their needs, is there a point to taking money from them beforehand? And yes, I'll grant this is a very rare and marginal case in a country like America, and no justification whatsoever for people not in such a situation.3) Does the giving have to be to the "priesthood" (though we protestants don't call them priests, in some movements it's barely even a nominal distinction) or "clergy?" Or can it be to the needy and those doing God's work (i.e. evangelism and mission work, Christian service, etc)?I don't mind people preaching mandatory tithing, my disagreements with them are more or less hair-splitting. I was listening to a friend of mine preach on revival one night, and while going through sins that needed to be uprooted he hit upon non-tithing, and he made the statement (loudly) "10% or you go to hell!" (don't worry, it was a conservative Holiness church, they're used to it). I had no problem with the statement, as he wasn't seeking his own gain (being a visiting preacher from another state, he wasn't likely to get much extra even if the congregation took it to heart) and the principle of it is essentially correct.

Hi Ron,You wrote:"This is true, but did you notice that tithing was never commanded before the Law. Both Abraham and later Jacob offered tithes, but in each case it was a voluntary offering and not the result of a commandment. They were not obliged but chose to do so.A Christian may choose to imitate Abraham and Jacob but we are certainly under no such obligation."I believe you clearly summarized the issue before us. Abraham and Jacob chose to tithe, they were under no obligation. I believe God had moved their hearts to give. That is the difference between obeying the Law given on Mount Sinai and the Law of Faith. The Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Each of us must do what the Lord tells us. In ChristJeff

Yes Jeff I heartly agree.As Ron simplified it for us:A Christian may choose to imitate Abraham and Jacob but we are certainly under no such obligation."And it was probably what I wanted to say if I wasn't so long winded...

This was just too good to pass up :) http://holyobserver.com/issues/v01i11/images/v01i11_church_sign.jpg

hey preach I hope you think this is funny!!!!!

Very interesting topic and one strongly debated since many have been called outside the camp. I believe that DFCM pointed out the Scriptures very clearly and only those with eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear would miss it. The reason many cannot see truth as it is presented, is due to the fact that they already think they have the truth, therefore they are blind. Not accusing anyone, but clearly stating that we cannot be closed hearted to truth if we are truly truth seekers. Our heart truly is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked.I want to share that I do not believe the Lord will hold us "bound" to 10% as the amount of tithe we are to give, because that would make it a law. I believe that He only asks of us based on all that He has given us. Everything comes from above. We cannot even love Him without the fact that He first loved us. I do believe that we are to follow the ways of Abraham. This does not mean that because Abraham prayed a certain way, therefore we are to pray that way. Not all are called to go to a land that they have never been before, not knowing where they are going as our father Abraham. So, to apply the specifics to Abrahams tithe to having to give "exactly" 10% would cause many to be bound by that, which places a yoke of expectation on them. The law binds, but the Spirit gives us liberty in Christ our Lord.I totally agree that the tithe is not an Old Covenant principle, but to HAVE to give EXACTLY the amount Abraham gave would make it a RULE that we are bound to.Our Lord wants us to know His ways and there are some that have nothing to give that would feel guilty knowing they HAD to give 10%. Our obedience in all things is not all about the Old or the New, but about our Cevenant with Christ based on a relationship. Out of that relationship, we will want to give cheerfully, not out of obligation. It is all due to our love and obedience based our love for Him. It isn't about the amount, but the willingness of our heart. If you love Him, you will do what HE commands. It is between you and Him. Abraham gave from his heart and a law of 10% was birthed out of that. The Lord fulfilled the law which made it complete. Our being like our father Abraham is based on our walk of faith in Christ. All that we give to the Lord already belongs to Him, because we cannot give anything that He did not give us first.So, to summarize without going too deep, which I am trying to avoid typing out, I would say that our tithe is a heart to heart matter with the Lord. It is not based on the letter, but it is giving of all that the Lord would require based on what He has given us. Obedience is better than sacrifice. The Lord is not wanting any to give grudgingly, but out of a willing heart that is intimately related to Him. One that is part of a covenant with the Lord and doing all for Him, to Him and because of Him. We have to come into agreement with the Lord in all things based on our covenant relationship with Him, not in agreement with any man. All For His Glory,Karen Francis

Karen, from what you wrote it sounds as if we are on the same page, which does not coincide what DCFM had said. I believe giving is a heart issue, and that the LOrd is looking for obedience than mere money.....The tithe is the law, and people are misled to give in compulsion, and not out of obedience to Gods will. Many are taught it is a commandment, many are led into compulsion to give, and out of fear of Gods wrath....not out of there Love of true obedience to him...like offering up a magic potion so God won't do you harm. In Him Scott :-D

Hello Scott,I am not sure we are clearly on the same page, nor am I completly on the same page with DFCM. I agree with what he said regarding the tithe being given before the law. The Word of God speaks for itself as DFCM showed based on the scripture given. What I am pointing out, is that the tithe is a law if it is placed on a rule of giving 10%. We should give from our heart as the Lord asks or as we so choose. That could be more or less than 10%. God wants us to give to Him in all things, not only monies, from our heart and cheerfully. My point is that to state that 10% MUST be given, would make it a RULE, which then makes it a LAW. We are no longer under the LAW, therefore our giving on anything is based on our relationship with the Lord. If God asks and we do not give, that is still between God and that individual. To say that we have to give 10% as Abraham did BEFORE the law, would also imply (based on New Testament scripture regarding doing as our father Abraham did) that we would have to do everything exactly as he did. I do not believe that is what the Lord is saying there. It was accounted to Abraham as righteousness because of his faith. I could go on, but I think that is enough and I hope I am making myself clear on what I am sharing.All For His Glory,Karen

There was mention of tithing before the law but keep in mind there was circumcision before the law to. Do we believe that circumcision for today just because it was before the law. No. So why should folks think we should and must pay tithes from the standpoint of a law in the New Testament? Don't get me wrong im not against giving and say giving your whole paycheck away if God inspired one....and if God ever led one to do this he would provide for that week.....that's basically what the real question is....what is your source of supply....God? Or your job....I do not believe however from the New Testament that we actually see a tithe demand upon people as yes we see it became for a short period of time during the law....the tithes with Israel in the Old Testament it became a law, but at that time it was a one nation Israel and it became their welfare system....the tithes largely was given to the poor....the nations in which most of us live through taxation are probably giving more money to the poor then most ever did while tithing in Israel. Anyway all we see in the New Testament is an encouragement to give to the poor and God will bless you and to help out those who are preaching the gospel....not a demand or a law...if God meant it to be an actual demand from a percentage standpoint he would have stated a tithe or 10% ....he never did that however.

Bobber wrote:the nations in which most of us live through taxation are probably giving more money to the poor then most ever did while tithing in Israel.Just a thought, we are actually giving most of the money to those who don't need it. I am talking about corporate welfare, pork and barrel programs, defense programs, and payments to the private banking industry headed by the Federal Reserve. Sorry for bringing the world into this thread. What is the truth?In ChristJeff

The Isrealites gave 10% to the Levites not only to support spiritual leadership but governmental as well since it was a theocracy. This was a federal income tax of sorts. They gave another 10% for their festivals, another 10% every three years for "welfare." Then they left their crops unharvested at the edges, the men paid a didrachma temple tax, and they left their land unfarmed one season every seven years. This is like a 25% federal income tax system under a theocracy. To take our 25% federal income tax system and then mandate a law of tithing to the church is very different. If that is proper, then why not mandate a "temple tax" as well? We should give cheerfully to the church and the poor, but consider the ten percent as a reasonable guideline rather than a law. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Why, yes, tithing is a new testament/covenant teaching. We are children of Abraham by faith... the same faith by which he was pronouced righteous by God. Abraham did a great many things in obedience to God long before the 'law' was given through Moses. By faith Abraham heard God's voice and left his home in search of a city whose builder and maker is God. By faith, and in obedience to God, Abraham and all males in his house were circumcised. By faith he interceded on behalf of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to the escape of Lot & company. By faith Abraham being ancient in years became father of nations. By faith, and in obedience to God, Abraham offered his only son, Issac up to God. By faith Abraham met and gave a tenth/tithe of everything he possessed to our Melchizedec. Let all who are of like precious faith with faithful Abraham follow in his steps.

Money is not an issue. God doesnt demand 10% of your money, he demands it all! EVERYTHING must belong to God. Secondly we are under no law. The laws are the wishes of God, but the real issue is the reason behind why the law was made. Jesus said that the sons are exempt from tithe, and the the Spirit said "behold what manner of love the Father has given unto us, that we could be called the sons of God." So now that takes care of the legal part. Now for the good part. Tithing is a Old Testament law and it shall ever be one because the old testament laws were not enough. We who have the Spirit of God, should rise to a higher standard since we have an empowerment greater than those who had the law. We dont just give 10%, we give everything. Our entire lives and will and wants. If you can further the cause of Christ with money, then do it! Its not about 10% of income being taxed by God, its all about making the gospel go further. We are freed from the law so that we would become holier than we ever could with the law. If you have to talk to the people in the church about investing in the Gospel, I doubt that they truly love God. People that truly love God love that which he loves. He loves the lost people of this world. If they dont love the lost, they dont know God. All to and for Him,John

I am in agreement with DFCM in terms of the practice of tithing. As he so clearly pointed out that Melchizedec was given a tenth by Abraham, and we are of the same faith as Abraham, thus this precept is before us. Do we obey or not is the question. I would say that we have the same faith as faithful Abraham in that as he called those things which be not as though they were [according to Romans 4] so are we to walk not doubting or staggering at the promises of God. Can we add on to that that we must tithe from the standpoint of a law? I think not. I would say there must be an absolute declaration in the New Covenant which demands it. If we are to do everything Abraham did then if that be so they we must need to circumcisize our children as well for Abraham did that. We know as Christians that is not the case. If we’re going to demand one though why not the other? The love of the truth will show you the condition of your heart. IM not realy sure what you mean by this. Ive heard some through the years suggest that only reason some people don’t want to tithes is because they’re greedy. I would say that is just as wrong to say as the only reason some ministers emphasisize tithing is because they’re greedy. Is it possible that some are? Yes. But no proof that all are. The same applies with ones who don’t necessarily agree with tithing. It doesn’t mean they’re greedy either and their heart might be right with God. Tithing is a heart issue. Jesus says something to the effect of; you can not serve two masters. We must look to God's ways of discerning the conditions of our hearts.Here I think is the thing that God wants us to capture. Who or what do you look upon as your source of suppy, God or man, or the natural realm, meaning do you look to your job as your paycheck as your source? For example what if God inspired you to a certain week give your whole paycheck away to the gospel or the poor and he said I’ll provide for you a few days down the road from some other source? Would most Christians be able to do that, and im talking about the titing ones now. Would that cause them to choke up? If so even though they tithes they are not looking to God as their source but rather then themselves. I would say they are really failing to capture the main thing that God is trying to get across. God should be able to say to one “Quit that good job you have and say go to this town or city and I’ll give you another job when you get there.” If they’re looking to mammon as their source they wouldn’t be able to that even if they’re members in good standing in their church because they tithe. They may be members in good standing with their church but maybe not with God. They are looking to another thing as being their source and not to God which is really idolarty so they’re not any differnent then those who say don’t tithes.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.Notice Christ said to the Pharisees that they were tithing even on small things and then finishes the statement with "these ought ye to have done". More food for thought.

Notice Christ said to the Pharisees that they were tithing even on small things and then finishes the statement with "these ought ye to have done". Not really. This was the charge to people under the law. He would have said the same thing about not sewing your garments from two different materials. They ought to obey the whole law. Anyone who breaks one of the laws is guilty of breaking them all. Thank God we are free from the law. Not that we dare turn that into licentiousness.John C. Kelly

Is there any scrpiptural evidence that Abraham paid tithes?Yes he gave a tithe of all the spoil to melchezidek. But where is the evidence that that was a weekly prctice for him?Taco

Not really. This was the charge to people under the law. He would have said the same thing about not sewing your garments from two different materials. They ought to obey the whole law.After brainstorming some, I don't remember Christ ever teaching "ceremonial" law at anytime - even to those whose were "under the law."

Here are a few Spurgeon quotes regarding tithing that you might appreciate brothers and sisters:"It is a blessed thing for a young man to begin business with the rule that he will give the Lord at least his tenth""Much has been said about giving the tenth of one's income to the Lord. I think that is a Christian duty which none should for a moment question. If it were a duty under the Jewish law, much more is it so now under the Christian dispensation. But it is a great mistake to suppose that the Jew gave only a tenth. He gave very, very, very much more than that. The tenth was the payment which he must make. But after that came freewill offerings and all the various gifts at different seasons of the year, so that perhaps he gave a third. Much more nearly that, certainly, than a tenth.""In the religion of Christ there is no taxation. Everything is of love." :-) :-D ;-)

I don't want this in any way to be a condemning statement for those who don't tithe, but hopefully you will search your heart. For I know far too many who say they are in Christ and yet are so far from the New Testament church as described in Acts when they brought all that they had. Don't make the mistake of justifying not giving anything at all when God has so freely blessed you. If this be the case then perhaps you've not met the self sacrificing man from Nazareth and had your heart transformed to not hold on to the things of this world. I also know many godly pastors who give of their lives to the people in the church so much so that they don't have the time to support their family thru a job. If God should so choose that the support given thru tithes should help him to put food on his table while he prepares the food for all those he ministers to and councils throughout the week then I am all for the giving of tithes and above that offerings where there are needs. No it is not a law to give but since love is greater than the law do you love enough to give.In His Grace,Bub

I don't want this in any way to be a condemning statement for those who don't tithe, but hopefully you will search your heart.I guess the same thing could be said about churches which insit and demand the tithe they each one of them should search their heart as well. Are their motives always right in sincere in putting preasure on people to give? I would say some of their hearts are right but then again some of them may not. For I know far too many who say they are in Christ and yet are so far from the New Testament church as described in Acts when they brought all that they had. I agree members of the early church were generous and the wealthy brought much of their excess material goods which they distrubted to the poor among them but this isn't the tithing issue. When some state that tithing is insisted uppon in the New Testatment from the standpoint of "law" or you have sinned agasint God if you don't give the actual 10 % well that's not what is being put forth in the scripture you mentioned. IN other words I don't believe one can use the verse where they at a certain time sold their goods to help the poor among them and say that means every week you give 10% of your income and that everyone is to do that. Don't make the mistake of justifying not giving anything at all when God has so freely blessed you. Im not sure that there are too many that don't want to give anything at all . IM sure most would like to give and to bless but in measure of what they feel they can afford. I also know many godly pastors who give of their lives to the people in the church so much so that they don't have the time to support their family thru a job. A question for another topic might be though has God really called one man to have all of his time taken up to serve the body of Christ. Perhaps with some yes, but could it be that a church should have more then one pastor or overseer kind of what like they do in the Breathren Assemblies? [im not of the Breathren Assmemblies for the record] But certain groups like this do carry out pastoral ministry and also work in the secular work force. If God should so choose that the support given thru tithes should help him to put food on his table while he prepares the food for all those he ministers to and councils throughout the week then I am all for the giving of tithes and above that offerings where there are needs. I think that's fine and right for you to want to see those who minister taken care of but if I introduced another thought here most of the money taken in doesn't even go to the pastor it goes to pay off church buildings, and there upkeep. What about say approaching church in a totally different way in say having church in houses? There are many web sites about House Churches on the internet. Maybe eightly percent of all giving is going into physical buidlings? Wouldn't that money better be put right into helping ministers and to feed the poor?

Bobber,I think it is safe to say that you don't tithe ;-) Although I would like to get in a lengthy discusssion on some of your responses I'm going to choose not to. I posted that statement for those it would minister to in searching where there heart is. As the Lord said, "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."However, if I may have the chance, I would explain to you my experience in tithing. Since I got saved I have given of my money to the work of the church and the Lord has been faithful to keep me involved in churches where the gospel is being preached, the Spirit of God is working and convicting sinners, and disciples are being made and sent to make disciples, which might make it easier for me to have a heart to want to support that work. In any case, my testimony is one of God's faithfulness in that even when my wife and I were struggling to make ends meet, we remained faithful in giving what we could down to 10% of our income. And we are witnesses today in saying that when it didn't make sense, and we should be saving up money for our future and our family that we never missed a bill, never missed rent, and we always had food on the table. I dare not take that for granted in the ways which God provided for us at that time. Fast forward now 5 1/2 years with one baby boy, and one on the way here in 4 months and God remained faithful the entire time not only to meet our needs but to now have us in a place where we have "grain stored up in the barns" as far as money goes and we're able to give not only our 10% but bless others around us on pretty much a once a week or couple times a week basis. I firmly believe that we are an example of the promise of God, which in Christ ALL the promises of God are yes and amen, of those who've believed Him when he said in Malachi 3:10 "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Again I say this as my testimony because I do tithe based on my love for Jesus and the work of His kingdom, and my faith in His word that to put it in laymen's terms from Malachi "you can't outgive God". I'll end with this quote from Spurgeon from a sermon he preached on John 1:16 "And of His fullness have all we received." -For all ye have ye have received of His fullness. I think that what we want as a church is more recognition of the gifts we have as coming from Christ. I do not think we have the gratitude we ought to have to him. We do not make sacrifices for Him. We give, it is true, to this cause and to that, but are there half-a-dozen Christians here that have ever made a sacrifice for Christ? He gives us blood and we give Him a few tears. He gives us sweat and we give Him cold services. He gives us groans and we give Him languishing hymns. He gives us life and death, body, soul, and spirit, and we give Him only what we can spare after we have first looked to ourselves- and not all that in the most of cases. Let us feel, O God, let us feel gratitude to Christ. As a fire within our bones, as a flame within our hearts, and as a sevenfold strength in our spirits, not only to believe in his name, but also to suffer for his sake; let gratitude be the inspiration of our lives - C.H. Spurgeon October 20th, 1861

Hi all,Just thought I would enter something out of the Membership Training course of the church I attend. I actually run the training of this course, and am a little uncomfortable at teaching this on the face value alone. I would lean toward the points of:Making sure your giving is cheerful rather than compulsiveGiving out of need rather than abundanceEmphasising Acts 2:44-45 & 4:32-35, pointing out the concept of 100% is NT.I don't like to emphasise the "tithe" due to the implications of "bondage to law". But where do we end this whole affair. Is repentance, prayer, fasting "law"?I have recently made a point of staying out of divisional issues in these forums. My main reason for entering into this one is because, I am unsure and would appreciate the different views available from SI members. I currently tithe (and go beyond upon prompting from the Holy Spirit) due to the fact that I want my "righteousness to exceed that of the Pharisees". I would rather err on the side of caution in this matter due to the fact that most people (perhaps none who are posting in this forum) use the tithing=OT debate to withold from God what He requires of them. I would rather be a cheerful giver who purposes in his heart to go far beyond the 10-20% I currently give, but my faith is not there yet.It's also worth noting that Ravenhill, Tozer, Nicholson and others emphasised tithing in various sermons, particularly one's that dealt with wholehearted submission to God. For a more extreme viewpoint on this issue, check out One thing you lack by Art Katz (not for the faint hearted :-)).Anyway, here is the undiluted view point of the church I attend. Please feel free to comment.>Az____________________________________________WHAT IS GIVING?Bringing in the tithe and giving offerings\tTithing is giving the first tenth of your income to the Lord for the work of the local church. Tithing was practiced throughout the whole Old Testament, beginning with Abraham. (Gen 14:20). In New Testament times it has been the starting point for believers who are growing to understand that, in fact, now they are saved, they have come to the understanding that God owns everything; and I am a manager or "steward" of all I possess. I am now managing it for God, on His behalf. I now must use it and direct it as the Holy Sprit leads me. Most opponents of the principle of tithing give less than the 10%. Most people who have received the revelation of stewardship give more than 10% and receive great financial blessings through their giving.Does it Cost?You can’t out give God. He has promised to be our abundance. II Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:Before you were a Christian you may have spent more than 10% of your income in frivolous ways that now you save on. For example drinking, smoking, gambling, etc. etc.Investing into the Kingdom of God is the only way we can preserve the value of your labours for eternity. If your father is wealthy, you have a confidence that He will look after you.Giving offerings includes the finance we give to special needs like missions work, a church target like new buildings or a sound system, and it also includes giving to the poor. Let the Holy Spirit guide you to be a generous giver to the things He puts on your heart.________________________________________This material has been written and created Craig Anderson and Chris Lord from COC Plenty Valley. We acknowledge the use of some material from Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren and request that any copying of this material would include acknowledgement of all these sources.

giving is good....

seeing this topic resurface reminded me that some time ago I was asked to write briefly as to why Christians give. It was designed for young Christians and new members of the local church. I thought it might gather together some of the thoughts expressed elsewhere in this thread.ONE OF ANOTHERIn early Christian times the believers had a strong sense of belonging to each other. During the earliest times of the church they instinctively cared for each other as they were able. Speaking of those times the scriptures tell us that “great grace was upon them all” (1). Those who had practical or financial needs were helped by those who had the resources, through the local fellowship of believers. The scriptures here are not describing an ecclesiastical organization or some short lived experiment with communism. It is just an historical account of the way in which the Spirit of God was leading His people in the ordering of their lives.They were being Spirit taught to consider the well being of others. Not looking to their own personal needs alone, but watching out for the needs of others. (2) As the fellowship of God's people spread into other places, so too did this sense of caring for each other. The fellowship in one locality spontaneously reaching out to care for others they knew to be in need. (3) It will be helpful to notice that in none of these instances were the believers ordered to give. There was no legislation. The scriptures merely record the reaction of believers to the known need of other believers.PROOFS OF LOVEIn Paul's second letter to the fellowship of believers in Corinth he speaks about a collection which many other fellowships were making for the poor believers in Jerusalem. He uses many different terms to express this act of brotherly love. He refers to it as “the grace of God” (4), and later to “fellowship” (5), and to “`serving the saints”. (6) In one place he speaks of it under another description; “the proof (or evidence) of love” (7). He is not speaking of “proof” in the sense of convincing a doubter, but as a clear evidence of love.This is a familiar bible theme. Genuine love must always express itself in giving. “God so loved the world that He gave” (8). It is not a law, but a simple inevitability. Giving, in one way or another, is an inescapable consequence of love. Those who love, give. Their love is an evidence in their giving. There are, of course, many different ways of giving, but the principles which we can see at work here in the giving of money are equally true when it comes to sharing our time or talents.CHEERFUL GIVERSThe 8th & 9th chapters of 2 Corinthians contain very valuable insights into the principles at work in giving. Fundamental to all Christian giving is that it is given willingly. “Not grudgingly, or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver”. (9) There is no legal minimum standard in the New Covenant as there was in the Old, but neither is it to be a casual or unconsidered action. It is according as “every man ... purposes in his heart” (10).Neither is there to be foolish or impracticable irresponsibility, but “according to what a man has, and not according to what he does not have”, (11) while at the same time bearing in mind that “he who sows bountifully shall reap also bountifully, (12) and that “God is able to make all grace abound towards you”. (13) What an amazing blend of free grace and faithful stewardship it all is. How wonderful it is that God should give us an opportunity of sharing with Him in loving and giving.Notes: (1) And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (Act 4:33 KJV)(2) Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. (Phi 2:4 KJV)(3) And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. (Act 11:27-30 KJV)(4) Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; (2Co 8:1 KJV)(5) Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. (2Co 8:4 KJV)(6) begging of us with much entreaty to give effect to the grace and fellowship of the service which was to be rendered to the saints. (2Co 8:4 Darby)(7) I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. (2Co 8:8 KJV)(8) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16 KJV)(9) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. (2Co 9:7 KJV)(10) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. (2Co 9:7 KJV)(11) For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not. (2Co 8:12 KJV)(12) But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. (2Co 9:6 KJV)(13) And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (2Co 9:8 KJV)