Does Music Matter?

Maybe this will be helpful: Be blessed.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=3356]Can God Use Rock Music? (Keith Green)[/url]

Hi

I read that article and was a bit saddened; although the authior does make some good points.

Speaking personally, all I know is that there is some music that I react against instantly as evil. Not against the style, or the loudness, but the [u]spirit[/u] of it. And the spirit of it is almost certainly far more than the attitudes of those who perform.

I was given a tape by a friend, of songs by various Christian singers. Most of the songs were fine - some a real blessing. But there was one (similar in style to the others) that jarred spiritually. I looked for that one, thinking to delete it, because the tape was great otherwise.

When I put it onto play after fast-forwarding there was a very loud note. For a moment I thought it might be that song, but quickly realised that it was "clean" (the song I was looking for was the next one). Even by one note my spirit somehow sensed that that particular song (by Don Francisco)was OK, and not the "rotten apple" one!

The worship group in church is often very good, but occasionally they play something that makes me go out of the room. Even if it was less loud I would still want to escape from it.

Wagner's "the Ring" is another kind of music that makes me want to leap up and turn it off, ior if not popssible go as far away as possible from it. Totally different in style but the spirit of it is at least as horrible... Also New Age music - different again in style.

And although the article is scornful about the story of the witchdoctor saying the music was calling up the spirits, there is something in it. When I was in Africa I got talking with an African teenage lad who was a believer. I mentioned that certain kinds of drumbeat (also found in some rock music) are used to call up demons. He was astonished, "How do you know that?!!!" he said.

This is a controversial subject, and there have been locked threads because it's got too heated in the past. So I've limited comment to personal experience only.

yours in Him

Jeannette

HopePurifies wrote:
It needs to glorify Jesus is EVERY way. Not just "some" way.
Music can most definitely and assuredly impact your walk. Some styles are inherently bad, having been birthed from un-Christlike ideals.
It is up to each of us to determine how the music and lyrics interacts with us. It is good to look at several different views and see if any resonate with you.
I personally was introduced to Christian Metal at the age of 11, and it was a gateway into secular metal, which led to a couple years of confusion and depression. Then I came back to "Christian Metal only" after a youth service and a suicide attempt. And though the lyrics were Christian the music did batter me emotionally, something I realize more in retrospect. But I enjoyed it and tried to put all kinds of Christian labels on how I felt (counterfeit worship, counterfeit repentance).
So is this an attack on metal? Eh, hardly. I definitely don't listen to it anymore. I've never been more blessed than when I gave it all up though. Some of the songs I listen to have a bit of a rock beat to it, but I believe the artists did manage to redeem the rock beat in those cases.

This is a good test to put your music through:

Does it humble you, or lift up your pride?
Are the artists performing or leading worship?
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. Proverbs 8:13
Much of today's CCM is pure pride. You can tell by the way they decorate themselves, in the way they interact with the crowd, as well as the boastful lyrics and amplified booming.

Does it invite you to worship God, or does it itself push your emotions high?
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. (Galatians 22-23)
Much music is designed to push you into jumping or all sorts of crazyness. That's wrong, especially during worship which is what we are talking about.

Is it beautiful and lovely, or is it grungy?
Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. Phil 4:8

Is it just like the world's music?
And you shall make from these a holy anointing oil, an ointment compounded according to the art of the perfumer. It shall be a holy anointing oil. Exodus 30:25
You might think this scripture is a stretch, but the lyrics of today's CCM could acknowledge any God and not just ours. I'm not against all songs that are simple in theology but I wouldn't trust a singer who only sings those type of songs. When God had people make His tabernacle the scent and the design was not to be replicated elsewhere. God likes things to be holy to Him. Not just thrown about carelessly and understood as easily by the world as by Christians.

If you were worldly could you dance inappropriately to it? (headbang, grind?)
That's just good sense. Having not been a Christian my entire life, I was shocked when certain Christian artists got my body doing what it used to in sin.

Anyways. There are more questions, but its really something you can't just be legalistic about. Your decisions need to come from the spirit leading you and teaching you. I just hope I gave you some good information. Music is incredibly important as it has a profound effect on us. We just have to make sure the effect is always producing Christlike desires, ideals, and feelings.

Edited for clarification.

Oh yeah, and remember, what isn't of faith is sin! Thats very important on this subject. You need to be able to back up your decision with a fully convinced mind (opened a tad for the Holy Spirit and Christian counsel).

Also, two of the sons of Aaron offered "strange fire" - incense from the wrong source or in the wrong spirit - and died for it.

This could be a whole new thread on "What is true worship?"

The other side of the coin would be the sort of dead services, and groaned-out hymns you see in many traditional churches.

Or even if there's lively singing it can so easily be in the flesh. We Welsh are good at that. They sing "Bread of Heaven" (Guide me O thou Great Redeemer) with great feeling in rugby football matches! There is this sort of deep, fervent singing and feeling that is perhaps peculiarly Welsh (called "getting into the hwyl" - "hwyl" is difficult to express in English - and probably impossible for most of you to pronounce too!) In churches is probably a soulish counterfeit for operating in the Holy Spirit.

It makes some of us good actors too (Richard Burton, Catherine Zeta Jones etc)

Blessings

Jeannette

jlosinski wrote:
I think that the music is "user friendly" today, worship music in the past has predominately foucsed on the lyrics, like I said, but today it's focused on the music, most of the modern lyrics are forgettable.

I agree. Music today isn't even as musically technical. Being in music I have learned that music is all about emotion. One will listen to the music that they can relate to emotionally. When it all comes down to it, to me music doesn’t lead the person. The music follows the person, because what one listens to, reflects their heart.
If one is compromising, so they will compromise in their music. If one does drugs, they listen to drug enhancing music. You can really tell a whole lot of stuff by what a person listens to.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

What seems to disappoint me about this thread is a possible lack of being open to different styles of music that can very well have an anointing attached to it. Remember God has made every blade of grass different, when you begin to uniform the children of God this becomes out of character of the way our Lord God has made us. A music style is just a style. It is the heart of the one performing it that matters. Not the style of the music. So I not only believe, I know there is nothing wrong with christian styles of rock n roll, hip-hop, rap, alternative style, country, bluegrass, jazz, blues, R&B, ambient, worship, digital music, contemporary and ect. These are just styles. It is the Spirit behind them that matter. I personally have heard some great worshiping music that contains all these, which have well uplifted me. Do I agree with the Spirit in all the music in the categories of these styles? No. I believe most modern christian music of modern styles does lack worship and is more on a line of entertainment. But you cannot rule out any style of music simply because of style. I have found fault in music of every style and can prove it if you wish. Whatever your favorite style music, I could show you of a song in that style that is not of a pure Spirit.

My biggest issue with Christian music today is that it is predominately owned by [b]secular[/b] corporations. Their number one goal is [b]not[/b] spreading the gospel... it is making [b]money[/b].

It is an unbiblical yoking together. When an Christian artist signs a recording contract with a secular company they are not obeying God's Word.

This is not only happening in contemporary music, but secular ownership is also true in Southern Gospel, Black Gospel, etc etc... and yes, even praise and worship music.

99% of Christian music today is secular owned and the bottom line is it is driven by the bottom line... [b]money[/b].

I'm not even getting into the horrible doctrine in most of it, or the lack of any doctrine at all, or the "God as my girlfriend" lyrics in a lot of it... there is a lot that has gone off the tracks in Christian music today.

But there is a reason it has gone off the tracks... an unholy alliance between light and dark. An unequal yoking. Disobedience to scripture. That is at the root of it all.

I personally dont have much of an issue over musical styles. I like all kinds of musical styles.

But Christian music today is an industry designed to seperate Christians from the money God has provided them. And some argue that the secular companies have the money needed to get the message out to the world.

Really? C'mon... the lost of this world are not buying Christian music. The secular radio stations are not playing Christian music. Sure, some modern rock stations play a song or two by Switchfoot or POD... but there is nothing in those song's lyrics to even suggest those bands are Christians. Those stations will not play an overtly Christian song.

The only band that ever successfully got on the secular airwaves with an overtly Christian message was Stryper... and that was two decades ago.

Boy, do I feel old.

Krispy

4christalone wrote:
Dear Littlegift,

Thank you, I agree with the statement on Kieth Green

Oh the need to have people who would walk out when the music does not have the Holy Spirit's confirmation in their heart.

James

Unlike certain books... From a child I was fascinated with fantasy stories - especially science fiction. I read the whole of the Lord of the Rings (including appendix and maps) 9 times in 5 years! Television programmes such as Dr Who and Star Trek also gripped me.

Much, or even most of it, was probably harmful spiritually, as I realised afterwards, but it was like an obsession, a drug. The reason was something in my soul that I'd never let the Lord deal with. I'd been a Christian for about 16 years when I finally let the Lord free me from this addiction.

Now I can clearly see the occult influence in much of this type of literature, and can't stand to read it, or see anything like that on TV.

The same sort of thing can happen with music, I believe, which is why many Christians can't discern it, any more than I could with fantasy stories.

So, those of you who don't see any harm in "heavy" Christian rock music, ask the Lord if maybe there's something in you that answers to it, and stops you from discerning...

Blessings

Jeannette

Television programmes such as Dr Who and Star Trek also gripped me.

Yea... now there's some state of the art special effects! lol ...not to mention that great Shakesperean actor: William Shatner!

Krispy

Then we received teaching that told us all drumbeats were bad and of the devil, so we got rid of all of our CCM.

Brother, in the past I'd been told many things-- don't do this and don't do that--but it wasn't until the Holy Spirit [i]told[/i] me and convicted me that I knew the truth for myself. If He hadn't taught me the truth, I would have become a slave to the opinions of men, and never have found true freedom. Our Hope is in Christ. The Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. So continue to press on and seek His face. Life in the Spirit is too wonderful.

In Christ,
Slavyan

NT:4352
proskuneo (pros-koo-neh'-o); from NT:4314 and a probable derivative of NT:2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I understand what you are saying on sometimes seeing performance and not worship. Worship is not only music although worship can be done through music if it brings glory to HIM. Worship is an acknowledgement of the Lordship of Jesus Christ and of God the Father, SON and the HOLY SPIRIT. Worship is something we have need of 24-7 to be pleasing to HIM.

There are times when our flesh quenches the Spirit in our worship, that is when we do what we want instead of what HIS WORD says and we become conformed to the world's standards.

On Sunday we come together as HIS WORD says, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, on purpose, as a corporate body, with all the gifts of the body to lift the name of Jesus.

Worship is doing what God's Word says. We can't be in continual worship if there is an area of our life where Jesus is not welcome or we think it would be inappropriate to speak of HIS love and our dependency on HIS LOVE HIS forgiveness, HIS protection, HIS GIFTS and HIS provision. Without Him we are nothing.

Here's something I've always wondered about... you hear some say you should avoid music that appeals to the flesh, and I understand completely that if a particular style invokes sensual feelings, or anger, etc should be avoided by the child of God.

But I've heard many condemn music simply for the enjoyment it brings. Thats considered fleshly by many.

Well... does this mean we should only listen to music we dont enjoy?

Personally, I believe God created nature to be enjoyed by man. I believe God created sex to be enjoyed by a husband and wife, along with all the spiritual unity it brings.

And I believe God created music to be enjoyed by man too. Of course, there are many aspects to music... such as being used in worship of God.

But there is an element of enjoyment in music that I believe God wants us to partake of too.

Sometimes I enjoy country sounds, sometimes I enjoy classical, sometimes I enjoy upbeat (dare I say rock?). I'm speaking about style, not lyrics... obviously we need to avoid lyrics that do not edify us in the Lord.

I grew up on country and rock... and at the end of the day, thats what I gravitate toward. I hate homogenized Christian pop. I dislike most worship and praise music... not the lyrics, but the style. It's too plastic.

I think it is possible for one believer to enjoy a certain style of music and not be sinning at all... while another believer may not be able to.

It comes back to the whole meat issue that Paul so eloquently wrote about. If your conscience doesnt allow you to enjoy a certain style of music, then you should not partake. At the same time, you cant condemn someone who does. And for the person who can partake, you should not let your [b]freedom[/b] be a stumbling block for others.

Krispy

HomeFree89 wrote:

My background in music has been "Christian" rock (DC Talk, some POD, Newsboys, etc.). Then we received teaching that told us all drumbeats were bad and of the devil, so we got rid of all of our CCM. Just a couple years ago, we started listening to things with drums, bass guitar, electric guitar, but it's not rock (Steve Green,Keith Green, Legacy Five). The Lord had shown us that not all drums are bad, if they aren't the driving force of the music and if the singers are living right before God.

So, as you can see I've listened to a lot that's out there and I wouldn't go back to it. The effect it has on my spirit is a huge reason why I wouldn't listen to it. When I enter a Christian bookstore and I hear the music they're playing it troubles me and I don't like staying there long.

Another reason would be, after checking out the roots of rock and finding out the people who made it acceptable, I realized that we shouldn't be copying it. Should we use the same music in our "worship" that Elvis and Little Richard made popular?

1Jo 2:15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

Brother, it blesses me to see how you're seeking and wanting God's best. This is something that God is still working with me on. Just a couple of weeks ago I had to get rid of a couple of CDs that God was convicting me about, but I sure didn't want to get rid of them. They were Southern Gospel, but the spirit was one of amusement and not worship, so the Lord is still teaching me, too.

God bless,
Jordan

Personally I've never heard anyone say that drumbeats are wrong, only [i]certain kinds[/i] of beats.

Not being a musician I couldn't tell you what kinds of beats, only that I know if I hear that kind! A musician did say that it was when the emphasis was on the second beat of the bar, don't know if that's so?

The effect it has on my spirit is a huge reason why I wouldn't listen to it.

You said:

Just a couple of weeks ago I had to get rid of a couple of CDs that God was convicting me about

These days, He ususally convicts me over things like wrong attitudes, though sometimes I'm still gripped by books too (not fantasy but others!)

Isn't it great that we seem to be in agreement on this thread :-P !

Blessings

Jeannette

Personally I've never heard anyone say that drumbeats are wrong, only certain kinds of beats.

I am not trying to be argumenative here. I do require that someone back this up with God's Word. Otherwise, without a Biblical basis, this is speculative at best.

Pretty please!?!?

If this is true, and music really is a major issue in the Body of Christ, why is scripture strangely silent about it? There is a lot of man's opinions about this subject floating around... but very little Biblical basis for it, if any.

All I am asking is that God's Word be the final authority... not some evangelist that no one has ever heard of who is quoting some musicologist that no one has ever heard of.

Krispy

Did I just end this conversion by asking for scripture to back this stuff up?

Hmmm...

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Personally I've never heard anyone say that drumbeats are wrong, only certain kinds of beats.

I am not trying to be argumenative here. I do require that someone back this up with God's Word. Otherwise, without a Biblical basis, this is speculative at best.

Pretty please!?!?

If this is true, and music really is a major issue in the Body of Christ, why is scripture strangely silent about it? There is a lot of man's opinions about this subject floating around... but very little Biblical basis for it, if any.

All I am asking is that God's Word be the final authority... not some evangelist that no one has ever heard of who is quoting some musicologist that no one has ever heard of.

Krispy

It's like that Kenneth Copeland video, in the thread on "holy laughter". Most of us who saw it knew straight away that it wasn't of God, but what Scripture would you use in evidence for that fact?

How would you answer your question in that case, substituting [edit]"holy laughter", or the KC video[edit] for "music"?

If this is true, and music really is a major issue in the Body of Christ, why is scripture strangely silent about it? There is a lot of man's opinions about this subject floating around... but very little Biblical basis for it, if any.

As far as I know it is also a fact that many witchdoctors use heavy drumbeats (of a particular, hypnotic kind?) to call up the spirits.

I think the basic scriptural principle has already been stated - does it glorify God? Is the music truly worshipping and glorifying Him or not?

The nearest I can come so far to a relevant scripture re music is Exodus 32. Why were the Israelites wrong to dance around the Golden Calf - apart from the obvious fact that it was a "graven image". The calf was [u]supposed[/u] to represent the Lord, and the people hadn't yet received it as a definite law that they shouldn't.

So was there something wrong with their MANNER of worship as well??

There may have been something in the sound of their worship that alerted Moses that there was something wrong, but the passage doesn't make that plain either.

[i][color=000099]17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, “There is a noise of war in the camp.”
18 But he said:
“It is not the noise of the shout of victory,
Nor the noise of the cry of defeat,
But the sound of singing I hear.”[/color][/i]

The word for "sing" is a usual word meaning worship or bow down, so what was it about the sound???

Sorry Krispy, that's the best I can do at the moment!

Don't [i]you[/i] have any answers to your question?

Blessings

jeannette

HomeFree89 wrote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I am not trying to be argumenative here. I do require that someone back this up with God's Word. Otherwise, without a Biblical basis, this is speculative at best.

Seeing as they didn't have rock back when the Bible was written, we can't just pull up verses that say "Thou shalt not listen to Rock music." ;-) However, there are principles that apply, like not loving the world. Like I've said before, check out the roots, they aren't godly.

Jordan

Re loudness of music, they didn't have that problem in the Olld Testament:

Psalm 150:
[i][color=000099]
Let All Things Praise the Lord
1 Praise the Lord!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty firmament!
2 Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!
3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
5 [b]Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals![/b]
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord![/color][/i]

I can stand that kind of noise!!!

Jeannette

We worship in Spirit and Truth. It's hard to stay in the Spirit when you want to get up and dance to Rock and Roll, especially if you came out of the world of Rock and Roll.

I guess we can all ask the question...When Jesus Prayed to the Father, or preached, were there any Rock bands around or bands at all. Did Paul need props to get the message across? or to entertain the troops? Unfortunately today, we need to be entertained with props and Pop music. The world needs to be entertained. Christians need to be sanctified....or set apart...from the world.

The only prop I see Jesus needed was an old rugged cross.

In Christ
Katy-did

Most anyone who has been here for any length of time know that I take a strong stand on most issues, and know that I have many issues with Christian music and that pathetic state that it is in now.

So please dont categorize me as someone who is soft on this issue, I am not.

No, there were no rock bands in NT times, obviously. However, most folks who condemn certain musical styles go to the supposed history of rock music and trace it back to the polyrythyms and such in "ancient tribal" music. So, according to many, the beats and what not go back to ancient times.

Ever heard traditional Jewish music? Ever been to Jewish celebrations? Talk about lively upbeat music. And very syncopated.

Fact is, when the rock music arguments were formulating in the 1950's it was dominated by a very racist point of view. From [b]pulpits[/b] it was condemned as "n----r music", and I even read a book that was written as recently as the early 1990's where a fundamental baptist asked which is better... Hymns that had a rich European history, or primitive music from Africa brought to the US on slave ships?

There has always been, in my mind, a racist element to the whole "beat" argument.

Since music has been around since the beginning, and since most Christians are convinced that musical styles are very important, it would seem to me that the Bible would have something, anything, to say about it... but it says nothing. It is dead silent about it.

Most folks have heard of Petra. I love Petra. A lot of their music would be considered hard rock by most people. I find their music very uplifting, very encouraging, and extremely scriptural. When I listen to Petra I dont get feelings of anger or lust or sensuality... I find myself challenged spiritually to live bolder for Christ.

I understand some people might be turned off by Petra's style, but I'm not. How do we explain that?

Casting Crowns is another band that I am challenged and encouraged by... but some probably wouldnt be.

While their are some very serious problems with Christian music today, and while I wouldnt give you a plug nickle for most of what the industry is putting out today... I do recognize that some people are encouraged and edified by certain bands, while others may not be.

But just because YOU may not find any redeeming value in Petra's music does not mean that NOBODY will.

We have a tendancy to judge the value of Christian music by our tastes, and not by fruit.

Hopefully I have some credibility with y'all. I'm sure some here would expect me to come and say all rock music is of the devil... but hey, I gotta be honest about my position on this.

I see nothing in scripture by which we can condemn musical styles. We certainly can find plenty in scripture by which to judge HOW styles can be used, but not the styles themselves.

Krispy

FYI

"The origin of rock music and the term rock 'n' roll are interesting ones. In the early 1950s, a disk-jockey named Alan Freed was one of the first white people to be involved in "rhythm & blues" music, which was the direct forerunner of rock 'n' roll. (The complete genealogy of rock 'n' roll music is: voodoo to jazz to blues to rock 'n' roll [David Tame, The Secret Power of Music, pp. 187-204].) Rock 'n' roll was a kind of fusion between rhythm & blues and country & western music. Freed was one of the first white people to play this new rhythm & blues/country combination on his radio program, and was perplexed as to what to call it since it obviously needed a new name. Freed had been receiving bizarre reports concerning kids' reactions to this new music, so decided to name it after a ghetto term that black people used for pre-marital sex in the back seat of a car -- hence, the term "rock 'n' roll" was coined.

Contrast the above true account of the origin of rock 'n' roll music with that told us by the so-called "Christian" rock band Petra in the lyrics of one of their songs; i.e., that God was the source of rock 'n' roll!:"
By Petra:

God gave rock 'n' roll to you,
Put it in the soul of everyone,
If you love the sound,
And don't forget the Source,
You can turn-a-round,
You can change your course.

In Christ
Katy-did

Well, first off... Petra didnt write that song. A secular group called Argent did. Petra re-wrote the lyrics and if you would bother to search out the lyrics you would realize that Petra's version is saying that you can get caught up in the music and totally miss God.

But then, when we quote from websites like Dial-a-Truth, accuracy is not our priority. I've read those websites, trying to keep an open mind... but found them to be extremely lacking in sound scriptural arguments. Also, facts are not high on their list of important things to get right. They are poorly researched and come off as being quite ignorant.

They cant even quote the lyrics correctly. In that little 6 line chorus from that song there are 2 mistakes.

By the way, Petra recorded that song in their infancy in 1977. So you're going to throw away 35 years of ministry because you find a problem with a song they recorded 30 years ago?

Do you folks realize that the worship and praise music you listen to instead of rock utilizes that exact same beat and syncopation? There is no difference. How do you justify it?

I would recommend that folks actually search the scriptures instead of the internet when trying to learn more about the Lord and His ways.

Freed had been receiving bizarre reports concerning kids' reactions to this new music, so decided to name it after a ghetto term that [b]black people[/b] used for pre-marital sex in the back seat of a car

Thanks for quoting this... this helps proove my point about racism being at the core of the argument. And I am a southern redneck. I'm not black. I have no "race card" to play.

Krispy

Krispy

Let's look at what GOD has tosay about friendship with the world or bringing things out of Egypt(the World) into the Camp. Read Joshua's words of warning to Israel about such things. Do you think this does not apply to us today. ALL scripture is for reproof, rebuke etc, for Righteousness.

The Love of God is waxing cold as we speak among Christians for this very reason...worldlieness, that we are being told to keep quiet about!

Exodus 32
1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

15And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.

16And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

17And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

18And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?

22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.

23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

25And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)

26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

29For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

30And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

31And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

In Christ
Katy-did

Katy... obviously you havent taken the time to get to know me very well.

Krispy

What do y'all think about the song "The Orange Blossom Special" .... is it evil?

Seriously...

Krispy

Homey... where did pants come from? Did it come from the world? (answer: yes)

Dont you think that you should refrain from wearing pants, and instead where a robe as Jesus did?

Did the church invent the combustion engine, or did it come from the world?

Did you know Henry Ford was an anti-semite and wrote a lot of material that was later used by the Nazi's? He even visited Germany in the early days of the Nazi regime and met with government officials on a very friendly basis.

Yet, you have no problem driving a car, do you?

Everyone thinks a preacher in a suit and tie looks holy... but what were the execs at Enron wearing when they were ripping off their employees and lining their own pockets? Suits and ties...

See where I am going with this?

Krispy

Worship music that does not edify ALL worshippers is not worship music. If the beat hinders, if the lyrics hinder, if the VOLUME hinders there is soulishness behind it. All of the above is intended to persuade beyond the legitimate influence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit needs none of it be given either to the worsipper or from the worshipper. Obviously it can be said that if the crowd depends on any of the above, they aren't worshippers seeking only to placated or entertained and the "worship team" [so called] feels that it has fulfilled its obligation regardless if it has done either. Real Spirituality here. :(

One need only ask if he/she would play their brand of music, given the opportunity to do so, behind the veil of the Holy of Holies....I doubt few would -- or could. I also doubt the contemporary sound will ever be heard within Heavens gates.

Delete ----servor error

Ormly wrote:
Worship music that does not edify ALL worshippers is not worship music. If the beat hinders, if the lyrics hinder, if the VOLUME hinders there is soulishness behind it. All of the above is intended to persuade beyond the legitimate influence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit needs none of it be given either to the worsipper or from the worshipper. Obviously it can be said that if the crowd depends on any of the above, they aren't worshippers seeking only to placated or entertained and the "worship team" [so called] feels that it has fulfilled its obligation regardless if it has done either. Real Spirituality here. :(

One need only ask if he/she would play their brand of music, given the opportunity to do so, behind the veil of the Holy of Holies....I doubt few would -- or could. I also doubt the contemporary sound will ever be heard within Heavens gates.

I haven't read all the posts since last visit, but just to stress again that it is the [u]spirit[/u] of the music that's the key to knowing what is OK and what is not, not the type of music as such.

This morning I went for my exercise class (referred by the doctor to try and get my blood pressure and choletsterol down - it'll have to be medication if it gets any higher).

As they usually do in gyms they had a rock music station playing, (maybe the beat encourages you to exercise faster!)

I wasn't keen on any of the songs, and of course they were as far as possible from being worship songs (unless it was worship of Luuuurve" or something) but I could ignore most of them and got on with exercising without much difficulty. Except for one. That one had such a horrible spirit that I literally put my fingers in my ears. It was an opportunity to witness because the instructor asked what was wrong.

I didn't give him the Gospel as such (softly, softly catchee monkey" as the saying goes) but said that some music I couldn't stand because it seemed literally evil. Same with New Age music and Wagner (perhaps for the same reason Hitler loved it!) He was intrigued.

There was also a rap song a little later but I was further away from the speakers and managed not to have to block my ears!

Please pray I will have an opportunity to speak of the Lord to this man next time, (rather than the negative side of not being able to stand "evil" music).

And the boldness to [i]take[/i] the opportunity!

Blessings

Jeannette

Recognize the lesson here, Jeanette.

Music manipulates the emotions. You found that out the unpleasant way ... and it was forced upon you. You had no choice in the matter.

If the manager desires a pleasant, peaceful atomsphere where tempers are more easily controlled, he will play "elevator music". Should he desire production on the line he will play faster, more aggressive tunes. That is what you no doubt heard to greater and lesser degrees when at the exercising gym.

Lets make application to our Church worship service. Care to comment first?

I agree w/ Ormly... when I'm weight lifting I usually listen to two Christian bands: one called "Saint" and the other called "Sacred Warrior". I'm sure most here havent heard of them, and most probably would not like them... but it works for me. :-) Hard to work out listening to Michael Card.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I agree w/ Ormly... when I'm weight lifting I usually listen to two Christian bands: one called "Saint" and the other called "Sacred Warrior". I'm sure most here havent heard of them, and most probably would not like them... but it works for me. :-) Hard to work out listening to Michael Card.
Krispy

Different styles of music are appropriate for different situations. And one style of music is not appropriate for all situations.

It's that simple.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Different styles of music are appropriate for different situations. And one style of music is not appropriate for all situations.

It's that simple.

Krispy

Sorry, what is simple is you don't make that call. If you lead, then lead, don't accomodate because you FEEL you have only rockers in your midst and you must play rock/contemporary music. If you can't lead in purety unto the Lord and not unto people you wish to accomodate or please, absent the pounding of the guitar, regardless of the re-action or participation, you have no right to alter anything of the "sweet" praises to the Lord. It is God who does the gathering unto Himself --- not you or me. Sweet praises unto the Lord ususlly brings in response, a "sweet" breaking of the heart.

What I find missing today is the knowledge of the need of the "sweet" praise music that is still available unto the lord but has been squeezed out by a soulish music made acceptable by the false reasoning from un-reborn man, that it is now a music to persuade in lieu of the absence of the Holy Spirit who can't participate and since He never shows up "we must do something because something has to be done"....and see how the kids love it.

HomeFree89 wrote:

Ormly wrote:

Absolutely! Now about Sunday worship service and your emotions want to enter into the Holy of Holies where the Glory of the Lord is. What music will help you?

Well when I see people up and dancing around in the aisles it sure doesn't make me want to praise the Lord.

It also bothers me that we have to have loud, blaring to get up and praise the Lord. I've watched services were people weren't really involved until it started getting loud. Is this true worship?

Same with "worship" concerts. I once watched a music video on youtube of a song that I normally don't think much of, but when I watched the people swaying and dancing it really turned me off.

Jordan

[i]"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge...."[/i] Hosea 4:6 (KJV)

If the root is dead how can there be life in the tree?

We who seek are responsible for examining the root and the kind of tree that has been planted, we are invited to embrace.

Sorry, what is simple is you don't make that call. If you lead, then lead, don't accomodate because you FEEL you have only rockers in your midst and you must play rock/contemporary music. If you can't lead in purety unto the Lord and not unto people you wish to accomodate or please, absent the pounding of the guitar, regardless of the re-action or participation, you have no right to alter anything of the "sweet" praises to the Lord. It is God who does the gathering unto Himself --- not you or me. Sweet praises unto the Lord ususlly brings in response, a "sweet" breaking of the heart.

You misunderstood me... I am actually agreeing with you. What I'm playing when I'm weight lifting isnt what I think is appropriate for a worship service stylistically. Thats what i meant by not all is appropriate all the time.

I'm not trying to accomodate "rockers"... the church family we're involved with would get a kick out of someone accusing me of trying to make people confortable...lol

Krispy

Krispy

Well when I see people up and dancing around in the aisles it sure doesn't make me want to praise the Lord.

What a judgemental, critical and unbiblical statement to make. When was the last time you read the Old Testament?

Seems to me (according to scripture) you have the wrong impression of God. God apparently loves it when His people worship Him with dance and with loud music.

I would also add a reminder that David's wife critisized him when he brought the Ark into Jerusalem and he [b]danced with all his might[/b].... and God punished her. Be very careful when you set up on your little throne and you pretend to judge other people's worship of God.

[i]Exo 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with [b]dances[/b].

2Sa 6:14 And David [b]danced[/b] before the LORD [b]with all his might[/b]; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

Psa 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a [b]loud noise[/b].

Psa 98:4 Make a [b]joyful noise[/b] unto the LORD, all the earth: make a [b]loud noise[/b], and rejoice, and sing praise.

Psa 150:5 Praise him upon the [b]loud[/b] cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the [b]dance[/b]: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and [b]dance[/b]: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Psa 30:11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into [b]dancing[/b]: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness; [/i]

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Sorry, what is simple is you don't make that call. If you lead, then lead, don't accomodate because you FEEL you have only rockers in your midst and you must play rock/contemporary music. If you can't lead in purety unto the Lord and not unto people you wish to accomodate or please, absent the pounding of the guitar, regardless of the re-action or participation, you have no right to alter anything of the "sweet" praises to the Lord. It is God who does the gathering unto Himself --- not you or me. Sweet praises unto the Lord ususlly brings in response, a "sweet" breaking of the heart.

You misunderstood me... I am actually agreeing with you. What I'm playing when I'm weight lifting isnt what I think is appropriate for a worship service stylistically. Thats what i meant by not all is appropriate all the time.

I'm not trying to accomodate "rockers"... the church family we're involved with would get a kick out of someone accusing me of trying to make people confortable...lol

Krispy

Krispy

:-D

You're right Krispy, there is dancing in the Bible, but not the type I'm talking about. When the girls are up and dancing, exposing their flesh that isn't holy or truly worshipful. Pure dance is when the Lord leads and you're not doing it in response to loud music or because others are doing it.

Would you call getting up at concerts and screaming the name of the artist and hopping around the aisle worship? My parents and I have seen this before at live concerts and music videos of popular artists.

I'm not just picking on dancing to rock music, there's wrong dancing to classical and other forms of music, too.

See what clarification does for us? When you describe it like that, yes, I agree with you. My apologies for not asking you to clarify before I jumped ya... forgive me?

I've been to more concerts than probably anyone here. 90% of them before I was saved, and it was bands like Van Halen, Iron Maiden, AC/DC.... etc etc... there is definately worship going on in those venues. Worship of man, worship of sex, worship of drugs... all are basically worship of Satan.

Krispy

HomeFree89 wrote:

No problem Bro. :-D Sorry I didn't clarify before. "Communication is the oil of life."
Jordan

Interesting here, being older and from a music loving family whose Dad was a professional.

I can remember being in love with love. At a very tender age of 5 I dreamed of one day singing like Bing Crosby or Perry Como. I can remember my 1st grade music teacher parading me around to all the other classes in elementary school to sing the Lords Prayer. Funny, no other kids objected or laughed at that happening. In truth, never expected they would. This was during wwII. The parental conditioning of childrens minds didn't allow for anything untoward God. Music didn't go there yet.

Aside from being the high school dance band vocalist, singing in church and later, after military, singing in a Barbershop quartet in California, I never pursued the development of my singing voice choosing rather to wait until I was "discovered".. I will never know whether that was good or bad considering the conceit I already possessed. Spiritually speaking I can see myself dead so in that [main] regard it was good I didn't pursue it.

Anyway, back then songs were about love. Love to Family, Girl friend, God, Country, etc.. They were romantic. This of course had great influence in what was written to be sung in church, influence that had it's beginning way before the time I grow up in resulting in beautiful tunes and lyrics unto the Lord.

Something happened the day the Beatles got off the plane that never went "back in the bottle". From that time we can readily/easily see the decline in music and social values that followed suit. We can almost mark our demise on a calender. I waa in living in northern and southern California in the 60's. I was in my twenty's. I witnessed first hand the "Hippy" lifestyle and all that encompassed. I know what contributed and caused that rebelliousness.

Free lifestyle thinking goes on today greater than ever and while the word "Hippy" is no longer recognized by most, the music they generated goes on by other name[s] having lent itself to other musical genre, influencing it to bring about even further demise of our culture.

Being in love with love is something to be riddiculed today. To write such music is to be label by the youthful and not so youthful, listener. Consequently and in general, music written for the church that speaks of tenderness declaring, "I love you Lord", is now blasiase[sp?] What has taken its place is "CELEBRATION" music!! Music of consensus that makes the compromise with those of spiritual compromise mindset, able to lift the emotions without a cause. Of course what follows is the "down-dressed" dress code now excused away because of the music that says, "its ok".. Personally, I believe the "drown-dressed" dress code reflects rebelliousness beyond the compromised music.

That's my word ... part of it anyway not intended to offend but rather intended to help someone connect the dots who knows in their heart, somethings wrong.

It's pretty wonderful music, I suggest hearing the songs "the hypocrite" and "I was at your funeral"...

...Interesting music. Just started listening to it. The vocals have kind of a Bono feel to them. (...and I dont mean Sonny Bono!)

Is this a friend singing, or is this you?

Krispy

freedbyjc wrote:
Ok... I'm having a POPEYE moment... I'm back in...

AWESOMELY Good point ORM :eek: All music is emotional. It is OUR EMOTIONS and experiences that shape our response to it.

Music is all about conditioned response...the ears God has given us pick up sound waves and INTERPRET them into what our brains have been conditioned to categorize as MUSIC ... we make personal determination as to what is good or bad by our personal discernment as shaped by our mores and emotions.

ANY problems so far? You still with me?

Another example…We all eat different types of food and we have our personal preferences for taste and texture conditioned by our experiences to produce a response. We like spicy, we like crunchy, we want our candy w/ nuts or with caramel or chocolate…

What does it matter to any of us that a song with a certain beat or in a certain style touches the heart of a believer and allows them to recklessly abandon all pretenses and unashamedly WORSHIP their creator in the SPIRIT and TRUTH of the experience? If this is what they are experiencing then this is their time to worship and are we not then the ones who condemn them and their choice of music out of our personal prejuduce and bias???

Thoughts ...

The fact the music is for the congregants and not for God, says it all, regardless of the style of music "performed". Worship can only be from worshippers. Stirring the emotions from a man-centered reasoning that caters to the culture, can hardly be called worship.

You ask: "What does it matter to any of us that a song with a certain beat or in a certain style touches the heart of a believer and allows them to recklessly abandon all pretenses and unashamedly WORSHIP their creator in the SPIRIT and TRUTH of the experience?"

It matters much insofar as true worship doesn't require music at all, therefore why do we have music except to stir emotions that without it would not otherwise be stirred to worship? The fact we believe a certain music will accomplish the task speaks mightliy of the type we most commonly hear, i.e., soulish.

".....and allows them to recklessly abandon...."

Abandon to what, I ask? You presumptiously say worship and make a declaration. I say, based on the music offered up, emotions, especially when, absent the music there is no worship. I have witnessed this all.

Ormly makes a good point. Some of my most intimate moments of worship were in complete silence and solitude.

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ormly makes a good point. Some of my most intimate moments of worship were in complete silence and solitude.

Krispy

Amen! Only to have it all disburbed by some "beat" and "sound" and volume that destroyed/hindered my woership; that presumptiously didn't fit the occasion.

But just because the "beat" and "volume" disturbed your worship it does not mean it hinders everybody in the world.

You cant impose your tastes on everyone.

Someone in a 3rd world country who was never exposed to the music you like may well think your music is strange in their ears, and be a hindrence to them.

I saw a video a missionary friend of mine made in Africa... and the congregation was worshipping and singing praises to God in music that is not foreign to them, but it is to us. And it was good. Who are we to impose our western/quasi-european idea of what worship music is on them?

The creativity that God has given them is no good because it doesnt fit into our western idea of what music should be?

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:
But just because the "beat" and "volume" disturbed your worship it does not mean it hinders everybody in the world.

I didn't say it did.

You cant impose your tastes on everyone.

I understand

Someone in a 3rd world country who was never exposed to the music you like may well think your music is strange in their ears, and be a hindrence to them.

Indeed, you are correct.

I saw a video a missionary friend of mine made in Africa... and the congregation was worshipping and singing praises to God in music that is not foreign to them, but it is to us. And it was good. Who are we to impose our western/quasi-european idea of what worship music is on them?The creativity that God has given them is no good because it doesnt fit into our western idea of what music should be?

Indeed, again I agree........ Now leave it in Africa or the Rock and Roll - hip-hop stage and don't impose it upon me as if it should speak to me in some spiritual way just because you believe we need a change. It doesn't and I don't. I personally will take the grand sound of the organ and piano playing out the high praises and anthems to God on any Sunday over the sound of 1/2 doz fellows loudly banging guitars, playing out sounds in 2 minor chords that all sound the same regardless of the tune played .. and there are many each Sunday that have taken me nowhere in an attitude of praise. To the contrary, I leave.

In hindsight I would ask, who gave you or anyone permission to be creative in a worship service aside from the Holy Spirit anointing that would be obvious, by imposing your brand of strange, creative, music gleaned from the stage or third world to a people who recognize the prescribed way they have witnessed God honor? Has God changed? Has He become bored and wants fresh tunes?
Of course enough generations have passed on leaving us with this one that has never corporately experienced entering into the high praises of God. What we have now that was deemed sub or abnormal a few years back is now accepted as normal --- and that because we let the world and human reasoning into the sanctuary to aid us in establishing a "seeker friendly" reputation.

Having lived long enough, I can rightly say I have lived through the "dumbing down" of the western church praise service. A church that now plays to the "hurting needs of the people" regardless of the violation to the senses of God.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
But just because the "beat" and "volume" disturbed your worship it does not mean it hinders everybody in the world.

You cant impose your tastes on everyone.

Someone in a 3rd world country who was never exposed to the music you like may well think your music is strange in their ears, and be a hindrence to them.

I saw a video a missionary friend of mine made in Africa... and the congregation was worshipping and singing praises to God in music that is not foreign to them, but it is to us. And it was good. Who are we to impose our western/quasi-european idea of what worship music is on them?

The creativity that God has given them is no good because it doesnt fit into our western idea of what music should be?

Krispy

I have been in Africa and worshipped with Africans - and loved it, loved the life and exuberance of it, loved being able to dance and jig around without fear of seeming to show off, or of feeling foolish, because everyone else was dancing too (much more gracefully than me!)!

I have been in meeetings where the volume almost made my body vibrate - yet it was not offensive because it was in the Holy Spirit.

I have also been in places where the spirit of the music was so foul I could hardly bear it - even when it was quiet. New Age music is like that.

Some kinds of music is more to our personal taste than others but that isn't the point.

The music in the gym isn't to my taste but only a couple of songs were unbearable spiritually. Nothing to do with taste.

I actually wrote a rap song once, but some rap is evil - you don't have to hear what the words are to know that.

The only advantage of turning down the volume of evil music is that it's harder to hear it. If its bad enough it still makes me shudder inwardly and wish to turn it off altogether.

I don't know how much is due to the words, or the person who plays the music and how much to the music itself as such. All I know is that some music, or some songs spew out evil.

Others are harmless, and others are in the Holy Spirit and utterly beautiful, whatever the style or loudness.

In Him

Jeannette

Ormly... I wasnt coming against, and wasnt really disagreeing with you. In fact, I agree with most of what you just wrote in your last post... if not all.

I will say this tho... you ask who gave us the write to be creative with our worship music. My answer to that would be that God created us in His image. As such, we are creative beings. We are to worship God with everything we are, completely and wholly. We are to worship Him with how we live, how we treat others, etc. We are to worship Him with the gifts and talents He has bestowed on us. And this, in my understanding, means that we are to worship Him also with our creativity.

Some may worship him with a paint brush and canvas. Some may worship Him with poetry. Yes, some may even worship Him with dance (not suggestive dancing, thats obvious).

...and some may worship Him creatively with music.

And just as I dont have an appreciation for certain styles of paintings, and I'm not real big on poetry... you may not have an appreciation for certain styles of music.

Most yankees I know dont like grits. I love grits. Thats why I married my wife! ([b]G[/b]irls [b]R[/b]aised [b]I[/b]n [b]T[/b]he [b]S[/b]outh)

Seriously, tho... you get my point?

I cant understand why anyone would want to put a mushroom in their mouth. My two older boys love mushrooms. I think mushrooms are sick.

And I would never impose my musical tastes on anyone. If the music in someone's church hinders me from worshipping, then I am free to go somewhere else. But one thing I refuse to do is judge that church soley on the fact that I didnt like the music. And I dont think it's right for me to expect a church to change their music simply because little ol' me showed up there.

Krispy

freedbyjc wrote:
Awesome Jeanette ... this is what I was speaking too, ORM. How can [i]anyone[/i] say that worhsip is not occuring just because music is involved?

Did I say that? ---- I don't think so.

When you worship collecively - does the style and beat of the music matter to you? Is this not personal preference and style? Have you experienced worship away from your "Home church?"

I havent always house churched, ya know. I've been in many different environments where the music ranged from hymns w/ an organ, to bluegrass music, to modern worship. I've seen it all.

Worship has much more to do with our hearts than it does music.

And our house churches have music too. We've been blessed with some really good guitarists. Even a mandolin player.

I certainly hope I havent given the impression that I'm shut up in some cabin in the woods, and I only come to town about twice a year to get some yeast and some copper tubing... and a new corn cob pipe.

Krispy

Years ago I was in a Barbershop chorus. We competed every year as they now still do.
Being as how vocal harmony, as presented by the voices of the men, was the thing judged, needless to say, much concentration was placed on that emphasis. Get the harmony accurate and the voices blended together to present as best as possible, given we were not professional singers, the music we wish to be judged on. Anything, like movement by the singers on stage that [b]would distract the listener[/b] from the full benefit of the hearing experience was a no-no; was greatly frowned upon. The judges looked for such movement and graded accordingly.

Today’s thinking in Barbershopping is quite different. Animated stage presence is now offered up as part of the package. Why they even have “Jugglers” and “Acrobats” performing in keeping with the music offered to be judged. Choreography has been introduced as something to be desired, regardless of the distraction it presents to the listener, who came to the show to hear the beauty of Barbershop harmony -- plus nothing. He was a "worshipper" who wanted to be taken somewhere in his emotions. I lived that experience to the hilt.

Another thing introduced has been the letting every man do on thing while singing; offering up independent hand movements and gestures, heads bobbing and weaving, all to the detriment of the listener who came to hear the beautiful music. It stifles the emotional escape mechanism.

It is no longer just an experience in listening. It is now an audio-visual performance performed in the same name as before. How was this allowed to happen except the old way was dying off and something had to be done to preserve the tradition, a tradition that is changing into a "performance" never intended by its founders.

Can we make a application here as it may apply to our Sunday service?

ORM, I pray a personal pardon and want to express my deepest sympathy for the wrong that you feel was done to you. As I have observed in your responses to multiple worship posts over the years [and in your quoted post below] you are still belaboring the perceived loss or 'your BELOVED music' in your worship service and [eye]lashing out at anyone who will read your ...

As I perceive and fully grieve that loss, I also perceive that those events color your posts on worship. AGAIN, I am truly sorry if I was or am being presumptuous ...I pray pardon and I'll look out for this in the future.

Please do. Thank you.

Quote:

Indeed, again I agree........ Now leave it in Africa or the Rock and Roll - hip-hop stage and don't impose it upon me as if it should speak to me in some spiritual way just because you believe we need a change. It doesn't and I don't. I personally will take the grand sound of the organ and piano playing out the high praises and anthems to God on any Sunday over the sound of 1/2 doz fellows loudly banging guitars, playing out sounds in 2 minor chords that all sound the same regardless of the tune played .. and there are many each Sunday that have taken me nowhere in an attitude of praise. To the contrary, I leave.[/i]

Again, thank you for agreeing that personal experience and preference determines the state of personal worship. It is all about YOU, and you and you

To the contrary, I see this as being all about YOU and YOU wanting your own way or brand of worship practiced at others expense and regardless of whether it HINDERS others in entering the presence of God. ...hence your inappropriate terminology -personal worship. I’m sure if it doesn’t work, you will play louder.

That is what we are to wholeheartedly seek, communion and a personal reverent relationship with Almighty God

Non-sense and a testimony to your ignorance and what YOU believe worship to be about.

Quote:

In hindsight I would ask, who gave you or anyone permission to be creative in a worship service aside from the Holy Spirit anointing that would be obvious, by imposing your brand of strange, creative, music gleaned from the stage or third world to a people who recognize the prescribed way they have witnessed God honor?

Careful, dangerous ground dear one...Are you the worlds authority on discerning the Holy Spirit's anointing? Are you judging the hearts and minds of the musicians and the worshippers?

First off, don’t condescendly call me “dear one”. Secondly, are you so presumptuous to say that anything goes so long as it is declared to be in the Name of Jesus? And how do you know I don’t have such discernment? Care to judge me on that? The brand you accuse me of criticizing is all too obvious in that it is simply, a “GIG”. I have known some of the fellows. Jesus isn’t on their minds. They are all too often there because some mis-guided leadership invited them to play with the hope of getting them saved. By osmosis, I suppose. Go figure!

Quote:

Has God changed? Has He become bored and wants fresh tunes?

Of course enough generations have passed on leaving us with this one that has never corporately experienced entering into the high praises of God. What we have now that was deemed sub or abnormal a few years back is now accepted as normal --- and that because we let the world and human reasoning into the sanctuary to aid us in establishing a "seeker friendly" reputation.

What our God seeks is the hearts and minds of His people. Any worship or media medium that is used in the attitude of worshipping HIM in Spirit and in Truth brings the worshippers into a deeper relationship with Almighty God is the right method.

OH, So you are going to set me straight as to what God seeks? I know what He seeks. Problem is you can’t discern the attitude of what is offered up as worship, can you? The rest of your remarks is just so much false piety. Spare me.

Careful, once more you tred on dangerous ground dear one...Are you the worlds authority on discerning the Holy Spirit's anointing in corporate worship? Are you judging the hearts and minds of the people?

Are you the world’s authority on who is and who isn’t? If you want to question, question your own experience. I might even venture a guess, based on your poor remarks, that you have never been in worship service where the high praises of God were realized by worshippers. I have. I have seen Heaven come down. I have seen it go on for hours and the sermon get preached. Care to be the judge of that?

Quote:

Having lived long enough, I can rightly (???) say I have lived through the "dumbing down" of the western church praise service. A church that now plays to the "hurting needs of the people" regardless of the violation to the senses of God.

Again that is your opinion of what you have experience in your local church and what you have read about. Have you attempted to experience worship in any venue but your 'home' church? Go and talk to those who are worshipping...ask them who they are worshipping and why. Yes, you'll find some who are totally clueless but not all...please save the wide brush for painting the picket fence.

I repeat, I have lived long enough to see the dumbing down of the worship service to what it presently is believed to be "normal".

I have been in this longer than you have been alive. I know worship when I hear and see it. I will be in it when it is. I doubt you have had that privilege given that hipe and emotion is your gage.

Years ago I was in a Barbershop chorus. We competed every year as they now still do.
Being as how vocal harmony, as presented by the voices of the men, was the thing judged, needless to say, much concentration was placed on that emphasis. Get the harmony accurate and the voices blended together to present as best as possible, given we were not professional singers, the music we wish to be judged on. Anything, like movement by the singers on stage that would distract the listener from the full benefit of the hearing experience was a no-no; was greatly frowned upon. The judges looked for such movement and graded accordingly.

Today’s thinking in Barbershopping is quite different. Animated stage presence is now offered up as part of the package. Why they even have “Jugglers” and “Acrobats” performing in keeping with the music offered to be judged. Choreography has been introduced as something to be desired, regardless of the distraction it presents to the listener, who came to the show to hear the beauty of Barbershop harmony -- plus nothing. He was a "worshipper" who wanted to be taken somewhere in his emotions. I lived that experience to the hilt.

Another thing introduced has been the letting every man do on thing while singing; offering up independent hand movements and gestures, heads bobbing and weaving, all to the detriment of the listener who came to hear the beautiful music. It stifles the emotional escape mechanism.

It is no longer just an experience in listening. It is now an audio-visual performance performed in the same name as before. How was this allowed to happen except the old way was dying off and something had to be done to preserve the tradition, a tradition that is changing into a "performance" never intended by its founders.

Can we make a application here as it may apply to our Sunday service?

Ormly, I understand your point, and it is well taken. If you go back and read the things I've had to say about seek-sensitive churches, and Rick Warren, etc... I do not believe the church service should be a 3-ring circus entertainment event. I'm totally against that, as you are too.

Heck, it's one of the reasons we dropped out of traditional church!

There are those that say "I cant worship to old hymns", or "I cant worship to modern music" ... and I would say is it about you, or the Master? If the music is a distraction for you, and prevents you from worshipping God, then remove yourself from there, but dont make the mistake of thinking that just because [b]you[/b] found it to be a distraction doesnt mean thats true for everyone.

Paul spent a great deal of time discussing issues of meat. Some ate meat offered to idols with complete freedom and thanksgiving to God. Others couldnt imagine how they could do that.

Paul told them... dont let your freedom be a stumbling block, and dont let your lack of freedom be a condemnation of the other guy.

Ormly, if you came to one of our meetings and I thought that some of the music might bother you... we're a small group, we would change our music for that meeting. But at the same time, you would be in the wrong if you judged us as anything but worshippers because you didnt like a particular style we were playing if you showed up unexpectantly.

Surely your not saying that you know what godly music is, and anyone who thinks differently from you is wrong... are you? I hear that all the time from many Baptist Churches in my area. "Bluegrass music is angelic, and anything else is Satanic."

Please tell me you'r not like that.

Krispy

Ormly... why are you being so argumenative? You're reacting in a hostile way toward people who I have not perceived at all as being hostile toward you.

I everything ok, brother?

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Ormly, I understand your point, and it is well taken. If you go back and read the things I've had to say about seek-sensitive churches, and Rick Warren, etc... I do not believe the church service should be a 3-ring circus entertainment event. I'm totally against that, as you are too.

Heck, it's one of the reasons we dropped out of traditional church!

There are those that say "I cant worship to old hymns", or "I cant worship to modern music" ... and I would say is it about you, or the Master? If the music is a distraction for you, and prevents you from worshipping God, then remove yourself from there, but dont make the mistake of thinking that just because [b]you[/b] found it to be a distraction doesnt mean thats true for everyone.

Paul spent a great deal of time discussing issues of meat. Some ate meat offered to idols with complete freedom and thanksgiving to God. Others couldnt imagine how they could do that.

Paul told them... dont let your freedom be a stumbling block, and dont let your lack of freedom be a condemnation of the other guy.

Ormly, if you came to one of our meetings and I thought that some of the music might bother you... we're a small group, we would change our music for that meeting. But at the same time, you would be in the wrong if you judged us as anything but worshippers because you didnt like a particular style we were playing if you showed up unexpectantly.

Surely your not saying that you know what godly music is, and anyone who thinks differently from you is wrong... are you? I hear that all the time from many Baptist Churches in my area. "Bluegrass music is angelic, and anything else is Satanic."

Please tell me you'r not like that.

Krispy

I can remember a while back trying to get the hang of a local AOG church because I needed somewhere to worship and I knew a few that went there. Always before service the Pastor would invite us up to a circle, hand-holding, prayer time. You know the scene. Before beginning, however, he would always ask his wife to put a tape in of some music he was fond of. Well, she did and he would then begin by declaring to the Lord that "It was all about HIM and not about us". That bothered me in light of not only the rest of his empty words but the music was so distracting [with lyrics that couldn't be understood] such that it really didn't matter what he prayed. One could not keep their mind centered on prayer or worship because of the music. It did not lend itself to reverence but "hype". Consequencely, I was robbed as well as others who may not have known any better. I am sure God was also robbed.

No Krispy, I am not as you hope I am not. However, I believe the congregation should be the choir. When all I can hear is banging guitars or whatever other instruments loudly played over praising voices, I deem it an insensitive performance by a band and not good leadership for bringing folk into worship. Oh, most folk will endure because most folk believe that is the extent of it. That is the height they have grown to believe is the height of worship experience. That is sad. Some churches fold up because of such insensitivity. The AOG church I mentioned did just that.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Ormly... why are you being so argumenative? You're reacting in a hostile way toward people who I have not perceived at all as being hostile toward you.

I everything ok, brother?

Krispy

I don't like my words being mis-represented, Krispy.

Granted, me either. And I get accused of being everything but a son of God sometimes on here because of my bluntness... but we should still try and be respectful. :-) I'm not perfect at it either, but I'm trying.

Krispy

:-(

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I don't like my words being mis-represented, Krispy.

Granted, me either. And I get accused of being everything but a son of God sometimes on here because of my bluntness... but we should still try and be respectful. :-) I'm not perfect at it either, but I'm trying.

Krispy

Likewise, Krispy. It is always difficult to say something correctly without getting it wrong. Words mean something and I do my best to be clear about speaking in general terms, not wishing to impune anyone. I get particularly annoyed when mis-reprentation is done in a subjective way, i.e., to protect some affinity that that one knows is an affinity.

BTW, My son just came away from a very large "cotton candy-bubble gum" church to start up a real one in his home --- soon to be moved to a rented building. Since he plays the quitar in the contemparary-"brown rice" :-( style, we have this discussion about praise music quite often and I hold him to the same plumbline. I think it is beginning to sink in. --- 8-)

Guess I dont know what "brown rice" means...?

Krispy

http://206.180.232.42/clips/ram/JesusJesusRestYourHead.ram

freedbyjc wrote:
WOW, awesome clip; the close, so sweet harmony and the simplicity of the movements ...

ORM is one of these you? What's the name of the group? What part do you sing? We tried to get a barbershop group together at my church but could not find any true tenors.

Thanks again for the clip.

Glad you liked it. Now stop fussin' with me and I'll let you in on it.... :-D

...speak, Jedi master...

Krispy

freedbyjc wrote:
Speak, oh venerable one...a student awaits the wisdom of his elder...

LOL! That's better.... :-D

And it is not venerable that I think I am, but vulnerable. But I don't mind that if it produces in that suspicious one that which will cause him to think beyond the well established pseudo-center of man instead of the real center of God.

Go here:

http://www.singers.com/barbershop/goodnews.html

Jerry Fairchild was my mentor when he was with the champ 1964 quartet, "Sidewinders". I had him down pat in those years living California and being in their company many times.
There hasn't been a quartet superior nor equal to the Sidewinders in blend and "ringing" overtones.

I have just purchased the 3 CD's offered on the website and hope to be receiving them by weeks end. Take note that they don't, as I put it, 'catterwaller' as so many southern gospel quatets do.

Enjoy!

Music is like waves. Music is music when it has a melody, a tune that flows up and down. Metal music is not music, it's noise, there is no melody.

Pop music and some Rockn'Roll music has melody.

I believe the melody in music is important to the LORD, because like the Spirit it too flows in waves and He can minister through that.

2 Kings 3:15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him.