Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp -brayley

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[b]Strange Sounds from the Pretribulational Camp[/b]
[i]by Eli Brayley[/i]

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" -1 Corinthians 14:8

It never ceases to amaze me the way the pretribulational rapture teaching can make such fantastic conclusions out of such straightforward Bible passages. As one commits to an honest and objective study of the interpretations presented by pretribulation advocates, one cannot help but notice the gross discrepancies which inescapably arise between the supposed doctrine and the inspired Scriptures. A prominent German theologian put it rather bluntly: "Pretribulationism must be refuted as a dangerous distortion of New Testament eschatology."

It is my object in this article to cover a few of the most obvious Scriptural discrepancies that arise from holding to a pretribulational position, in the hopes that those who read the following few words would consider the strangeness and error of this 19th century doctrine.

A SECOND COMING BEFORE THE SECOND COMING

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9:28)

The term "Second Coming" is actually never found in the Bible, although the concept most certainly is, just like the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible but the concept is unmistakably there. Though the verse above is the only mention of the word "second" in connection with the future coming of the Lord, the belief that Jesus would once again return to earth a second time saturates the Old and New Testaments. Jesus announced to His disciples the night before He was crucified, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:3) Likewise the angel announced to them also on the Mount of Olives just after Christ ascended, that "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11) The expectation of the apostles was that Jesus would return a second time to earth in the same manner that He ascended. This is shown by their continual unanimous testimony concerning Christ's coming:

Paul - "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

Peter - "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:10-12)

John - "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1:7)

Notice the apostolic expectation is simply the full and glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus and that no dual distinctions are made. The reason why there are no distinctions ever made between the "second coming" and a "secret pretribulational coming" is because no duality of "comings" existed in their doctrine. The apostles purely preached that Jesus Christ would come again, plain and simple.

On the other hand, pretribulationists, if they are to remain consistent with their theology, must believe in three comings of Christ, a notion utterly foreign to the teaching of the New Testament. Neither Jesus, nor the apostles, ever taught such a thing. To save themselves the embarrassment of such a conclusion, pretribulationists attempt to maintain the expression "the Second Coming of Christ" while at the same time believe in a coming prior to it. They cannot have it both ways. If they say the "secret rapture" is NOT a "coming", then they disqualify all the verses they have since used to support a pretribulational rapture which utilize the word "coming" (see 1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, for instance). If they say then that the "secret rapture" IS a "coming", then they must believe in three comings, and therefore maintaining the expression "the Second Coming of Christ" as the final glorious appearing of Christ makes no logical sense.

A LAST TRUMPET BEFORE THE LAST TRUMPET

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

One of the most popular pretribulational verses in the Bible is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, quoted above, and yet this Scripture is in fact one of the most strongest arguments AGAINST pretribulationism!

The context of this verse is speaking about the resurrection of the dead when Jesus comes. Paul says in verse 22 and 23, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (Notice again that there is no distinction between a second coming and a pretribulational coming... just "His coming"). The key to interpreting when this transformation occurs (if it wasn't already obvious) is the pronouncement, "at the last trump." But what is the last trump and where is it found in Scripture?

It is not difficult to discover that the final trumpet spoken of in the Bible occurs at the very end of the age when Jesus returns to earth in great power and glory with all His holy angels. In our Lord's own words spoken to the apostles in the Olivet Discourse, it is stated: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31) The last trumpet and the gathering of the saints are synonymous. When the trumpet is blown, it signals the reapers to go and separate the wheat from the tares. A simple comparison of Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 clearly reveals the timing and nature of the last trump: it's timing is when Christ comes at the end of the great tribulation; it's nature is that it instigates the rapture, or gathering, of the saints. After the event described in Matthew 24:29-31, there is never another trumpet prophesied to come.

Therefore, if the pretribulationists are using 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 to support a rapture prior to the glorious appearing of Matthew 24:29-31, they run into an irreconcilable dilemma. How can an earlier rapture feature the last trump if there is yet another trumpet to be sounded at the end of the great tribulation? How could 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 be speaking of anything else but the final coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as it's context clearly shows? Either verse 52 is truly talking about the last trumpet, or Paul was terribly mistaken.

A FIRST RESURRECTION BEFORE THE FIRST RESURRECTION

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6)

The last discrepancy we will examine involves the resurrection of the dead, which doctrine is an elementary principle according to Hebrews 6:1-2. Our text above clearly reveals that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the great tribulation when Jesus returns in glory. Christ returns to earth and destroys antichrist at the end of chapter 19 and those who are resurrected suffered greatly under the wrath of the beast. But notice also that the first resurrection is not exclusive to only those who passed through the great tribulation; no, it includes all the saints of God from all generations. John sees all those who had suffered for the Word's sake, and states in verse 6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." This is written for all believers, for we are all "kings and priests unto God" because He "loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood." (Revelation 1:5-6) "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed men to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made them unto our God kings and priests: and they shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10) The requirement for the second death to have no power over you is for you to take part in the first resurrection. To this all believers will attain by the grace of God.

Throughout the Bible there is only this one resurrection that Christians are promised to receive. We have already looked at 1 Corinthians 15:23. Jesus said in John 6:54, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." He repeats this expression, "on the last day" four times in chapter 6 so that no one would be confused as to when the resurrection will occur. If we are to believe in a secret resurrection that takes place before the last day then we are not following the plain teaching of Jesus Christ, our Cornerstone.

Either John was correct in saying this is the first resurrection or the pretribulationists are right in saying it is not, and that there is a prior resurrection at the secret coming before the tribulation. What folly! Not one Scripture supports such an idea.

TRUTH OR CONJECTURE: YOU DECIDE

In this cursory article we have briefly examined how the pretribulation theory requires 1) a coming, 2) a rapture and 3) a resurrection all prior to the prescribed time clearly set forth in the Holy Scriptures. It is up to pretribulationists to decide whether or not they are going to continue attempting to squeeze the Word of God through the filter of prejudicial conjecture or simply believe the Bible for what it says. In the words of the late W.J. Erdman, the third pastor of Moody Church in Chicago who was once a pretribulationist and an editor of the Scofield Reference Bible before a "further searching of the Scriptures" convinced him otherwise: "Better the disappointment of truth than the fair but false promises of error."

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

from: http://www.timothyministry.com/

Greg,

Thanks for posting this.

The apostles purely preached that Jesus Christ would come again, plain and simple.

Amen!

Eli quoted scripture

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Btw, thank you for focusing on the simplicity of scripture references to Christ's return.

Would you [Eli] be able to answer my question [u]about tribulation[/u], in your last posted article on the differences between orge and thumos wrath?

Now this is the first resurrection, that of the martyrs. Those who were not killed for Him will be raised later, after the thousand years are over.

Hi Eli,

Thank you much for your reply. There is food for study there!

Dom asked

If the term "lived" is speaking of resurrection in the second half of the quote, what is it speaking of in the first half?

15 And anyone [u]not[/u] found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This suggests that [i]everyone[/i] has now experienced a first resurrection and is being judged according to their works, as written in the books which are opened.

Consistent with Hebrews 9:27, 28
'And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation', those raised in Christ in the first resurrection to reign with Him, need not fear the second death. Those [u]not[/u] raised at that time, do not 'live again' [i]except[/i] to face judgment.

This judgment is something to do with God's wrath, and nothing to do with the tribulation His people have experienced at the hand of the dragon.

Bro IRONMAN,

Not only those who have been 'beheaded for the witness of Jesus' but '[u]and[/u] for the word of God, [u]and[/u] which had not worshipped the beast, [u]neither[/u] his image, [u]neither[/u] had received his mark upon their foreheads, [u]nor[/u] in their hands;...'

Doesn't this cover [i]everyone[/i] who has persevered in faith?

But I do agree with that quote about those that are martyred for Christ are part of the first resurrection.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison," (REV 20:5-7)

"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." (LUK 9:60)

Has anyone considered that "dead" can mean more than just a physical corpse in a physical grave?

If Spirit Baptism is "death to the world" then what follows could be the "first resurrection" - all this happens while the physical body is still alive.

The second 'physical' death no longer has power over the Born Again believer.

of course I could be wrong and if so God correct me lest I remain deceived. AMEN.

Compliments, I have a sincere question for you, not intended for dispute but because I really don't know what your answer would be.

When do we get our Resurrected Glorified bodies ?

And if you don't believe in a future anti-Christ, then what do these verses say to you ?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is the part of Preterism that I don't understand. Sincerely. Annie

Praise God Jeppe.

Tim LaHaye said, "we cannot prove pre-trib with Scripture".

That's what I noticed too, but once you see the truth, then you see "through-out" the Bible from O.T. to New, it never contradicts itself.

Glory to GOD ... Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you ALL things" concerning the last days and His coming.

Bless The Lord.

Revelation 20 is not talking about a spiritual resurrection nor a spiritual death but a real and physical resurrection of our bodies at the time of the end, and a real and physical death in the lake of fire that burns forever.

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (JOHN 6:54)

Jesus didn't say "the last day before the millennium". He said the "last day".

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." {JOHN 12:22)

Die to the world and inherit eternal life.

"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (MAT 18:18)

When I was Baptised, I died (the first time) and was resurrected. After I die physically (the second death), the Lord will raise me again in a new, glorified body - on the last day.

Those who aren't revived during their earthly life, who don't experience the spiritual "first death" and "first resurrection", are doomed to both physical death here and spiritual death in the hereafter.

To spiritualize this is to miss the great theme of resurrection promise throughout the entire Bible.

Eli, I truly love you man, but you've got to realize that this phyiscal, material, earthly Kingdom you're looking forward to runs along the same carnal vein as the Pharisees'.

They thought Messiah would kick gentile butt like David and be as beautiful, wealthy, and wise as Solomon. He would restore Israel's former glory and the heathen nations would despair and pay tribute...

But He never warred like David - he turned the other cheek and was cruxified.

And He never ruled Israel from an ivory throne in Jerusalem - He served them on His bloody knees from Gethsemene to Calvary.

When the counterfiet comes, he'll probably be as beautiful as Solomon and as dangerous as David - and most will call him messiah.

Bro IRONMAN,

Thank you for the gracious reply.... but.... on a simple matter of English analysis, you could move all the clauses in that verse around, and get the interpretation I did - because each 'and' is like.... a full stop.... So it could read....

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

Then [i]I saw[/i] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,

(Then [i]I saw[/i] the souls of those) who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [i]his[/i] mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

And [u]they[/u] [ALL? (whom I saw)] lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

Now please know I am not trying to change what the verse says, and we have to hold it against other verses such as this which I was thinking about recently. Have you ever wondered what is our 'one hope' in Eph 4:4?

I (quickly) decided [u]the[/u] hope is the resurrection of the body after death [i]unto eternal life[/i].

Then, when one reads this:

Hebrews 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

one might be left asking 'To what other kind of resurrection could one be raised?'

John 5:29, 30
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to [u]the resurrection of condemnation[/u].

:-o

Let's look at what the abomination of desolation is.

[i]"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)[/i]" (Matthew 24:15)

Right away we know that the abomination of desolation is something you will tangibly see standing in the holy place, the temple.

Not necessarily tangible and not necessarily the kind of "temple" most people think of.

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (LUK 17:21)

"But he spake of the temple of his body." (JOHN 2:21)

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [b]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.[/b]"

The believer [i][b]is[/b][/i] the Temple and the Holy Place is now in the circumsized heart.

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (I COR 6:19)

"Now therefore [b]ye are[/b] no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of [b]the household of God[/b]; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [b]In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.[/b]" (EPH 2:19-22)

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (REV 21:22)

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [b]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts[/b]; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (JER 31:33)

"Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (ROM 2:15)

Believers are the Temple of the Lord. His Holy Spirit shekinah glory inhabits the Holy Place within us.

Jesus uses the word "abomination" twice in the gospels (maybe someone fluent in Greek can let me know if it's a direct translation?)

"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for [b]that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God[/b]." (LUK 16:15)

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (MAT 24:15)

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" (MAR 13:14)

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (II THE 2:3-4)

Or "seeing" the armies surround "Jerusalem"... since we are the New Jerusalem He must mean the spiritual armies surrounding the Church. Correct? :)

"[b]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places[/b]. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints." (EPH 6:12-18)

You have to be consistent, Corey. I find Preterists are terrible for picking and choosing what works for them regardless of context or consistency.

Is that consistent enough for the context we're discussing?

Love you, too.

Tim LaHaye wrote, "no single verse specifically states Christ will come before the Tribulation to rapture the Church."

First read this quote on this first website years ago but don't know what page.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

But it's still on this one.

http://www.clearerview.org/view/?pageID=139274

Eli said

I suppose "hearing" of wars and rumors of wars is symbolic too, right brother? ;-)

I've thought about Corey's point recently, and wondered if this is not just exactly what it means, that the man of sin would be revealed as the actual heartstate of 'the church' (small c)?

Perhaps things have to get considerably worse than they are.... the falling away, perhaps offering some disappointed church attenders a fresh opportunity to find God outside the institution of 'church'?

Then, I wanted to mention this in reply to Smokey's post, that when the believers rise to join the Lord in the air, Who is coming with those already asleep in Him, it will leave those on the earth who have not (? yet) believed. I had always imagined they had missed the boat, but now I wonder if the Lord's return [i]does[/i] give some the opportunity to repent?

I suppose this would be consistent with the first resurrection of some at the end of the thousand years of His reign, along with the first resurrection of all dead who had never believed, who, with those who did not believe during the millennium of peace, by that time will all be dead also.

Is it at the ending of the millennial age of peace, that the angel finally reaps the just from among the unjust?

I had never read that as something that happens as it were 'in heaven', but I see that perhaps it does not happen 'on earth'.

Bro IRONMAN,

I do acknowledge that the verse mentioning the beheaded could be read as if it is separating them from all the others who are also already dead, but there is no-where else the implication in scripture, that only some of those who died in Christ will reign with Him. All other verses include us all, [u]if[/u] we fell asleep in Him.

Perhaps this is another way we will know He is coming... that the dead will rise first, presumably in their resurrection bodies, and we (if we were still alive) will [u]see[/u] them - but perhaps [i]not[/i] - then those who are alive will rise to join Him / them. Perhaps people will just literally dis-appear. :-o

Regarding who will be ruling and reigning with Christ and receiving their glorified bodies at the "First" Resurrection. We've looked at Rev 20 and must remember all those who went before us. When He Returns, "that" is considered "the last day" through-out the Bible. Type it into a Bible Search.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

The Second Coming of The Lord [b]is[/b] the 3rd most guarded and important of all Doctrines.

Again, there are three times as many Scriptures about His Second Coming as there were for His First.

The doctrines of WHO God is, is the Chief Doctrine .... The Doctrine of Salvation is second .... then Eschatology.

Jesus put a severe warning at the end of Revelations to not mess with that book.

This subject should be approached with much trepidation and Not tossed around like "should women wear pants". There needs, must needs to be a holy reverence when discussing this and with fear. There is 'ample' Scripture that states, that twisting of these Scriptures that pertain to the #3 most important Doctrine in Theology is equivilent to twisting those of the First Two most important Doctrines. Amen!

Many quote that the Overcomers had "The Testimony of Jesus" but few look to see what that Testimony is.
It is "The Spirit of Prophecy".

Without which, one WILL NOT MAKE IT THROUGH ONTO THE END.

They will be rejected on "that day".

Not saying they will have 'no' chance of salvation, because those who do not worship the beast, nor his name, nor take his mark 'may' remain when He comes and be part of those who are not Glorified at the First Resurrection - key word is "may" because of the severe warnings against "wresting" these Last days Scriptures.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; [b]even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, [u]speaking in them of these things[/u]; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest{Pervert}, [u]as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction[/u].[/b]
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

Again, Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you ALL things." And [u]as Plain as Day[/u] He did, just in the Gospels alone.
And so He did through Paul, Peter, Jude and John.

Spiritualizing plain Scripture and remembering - just how much Scripture pertains to His Return --- the sheer quantity of the Bible itself that speaks of His Return ..... is a 'very dangerous' sin. Yes, it is sin "to wrest/pervert the Scriptures".

We do not "spiritualize" the Doctrines of Who He is nor those concerning Salvation and Again, to spiritualize these holds the same Warnings.

In 2Peter3 above, the "wrest" means to "Pervert".

That's an act of the will, just as the Greek word for "heresy" means "choice".

It cannot be, sister, because Paul says that there will be BOTH a great apostasy AND the coming of the man of sin. They are distinct.

Distinct, but not altogether unrelated. As Tozer once said, "An idol of the mind is as offensive to God as an idol of the hand."

And as the majority of evangelical Christians today seem rigid in the hopes for a fleshly, material, carnal messianic kingdom on Earth... woe to them when their idol appears in the flesh.

I believe with all my heart that if the Scriptures were meant to be taken allegorically Jesus or the Holy Spirit would have told us (like in Daniel 7:16), because it makes the Bible extremely confusing; you don't know what is real or not. There is far too much detail concerning the final years on earth and the antichrist that the only accurate conclusion is that these things are spoken of literally.

So an actual physical woman will stand on the moon wearing a crown of stars? And a seven-headed creature will leap out of the sea - the Pacific or Atlantic, do you think? And the followers of the beast will have a blazing purple 666 tattoos on their foreheads like in Left Behind...?

These are "mysteries". They must be interpreted with the aid of the Holy Ghost.

"whoso readeth, let him understand" (MAT 24:15)

"let him that readeth understand" (MAR 13:14)

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast" (REV 13:18)

These are prayers for the saints in the last days - to help them comprehend, unravel, and [b]interpret[/b] these mysteries.

For example, how many different ways could the Holy Spirit have told us three and a half years? Jesus and Paul REPEATED what Daniel said, they did not INTERPRET what he said, which I know they would have, had it meant to be allegorical.

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten [b][i]seventy years, according to the days of one king[/i]: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.[/b]" (ISA 23:15)

The early church fathers who were discipled by the apostles believed in the future and literal fulfillment of prophecy. That says a lot.

You keep repeating this. Please cite your sources.

Tozer also said:

"The devil is a better theologian than any of us and is a devil still."

How can you compare Jesus' words to the apocalyptic book of Revelation?

Eschatolgy is not the art of comparison between one set of scriptures to another - I'll leave Hegelian Dialectical Synthesis to the Philosophers. It is juxtaposition for correlation. Active searching for correlations among the Old and New Testament scriptures like names, numbers, events, time, places, animals, etc - cross referencing this data with world events - and waiting on the Spirit to (prayerfully) interpret.

Corey, I would be very careful about how you are attacking the belief in the Kingdom of God on earth. This has been looked for by saints going back to the earliest of days and all throughout the ages. The Bible is full of promises of the restoration of the earth and the Kingdom coming to it. Please... maybe you might not like the idea of it, but I would be more sober minded about this and I strongly encourage you to study the position of those who believe in the literal fulfillment of these promises.

I have studied the literalist interpretations, charts, diagrams, etc, and found them very much wanting.

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch [b]the thief[/b] would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: [b]for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh[/b]." (MAT 24:42-44)

Jesus will come unexpectedly, like a thief.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the [b]day of the Lord[/b] so [b]cometh as a thief[/b] in the night." (I THE 5:2)

"But [b]the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up...[/b] Nevertheless [b]we[/b], according to his promise, [b]look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness[/b]." (II PET 3:10-13)

If you insist on a temporal Millennial kingdom on Earth ruled by Jesus from a physical temple in Jerusalem, Israel - and believe this to be the Second Coming - you must explain His Third Coming - when the entire Universe is ablaze. Unless He "comes as a thief" twice...

Peter was not looking for a material kingdom on Earth:

[b]Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness[/b].

And if Peter didn't look towards an Earthly kingdom, I doubt the other Apostles or Earliest Church Father did either.

And if Peter didn't look towards an Earthly kingdom, I doubt the other Apostles or Earliest Church Father did either.

[b]Dispensationalism: Part I - Millennial Views Prior to the Rise of Dispensationalism[/b]
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=9%7C%7C653

The Early Church

As we now turn to the early church, let it be emphatically stated from the outset that we do not, in so doing, look to it as our authority. Our one authority is the Word of God. But we are convinced that God would not have left His church ignorant of vital truth for eighteen centuries.

A sample of the outlook of the early church is obtained if we read the Didache (dating from the first quarter of the second century). The writer urges upon his readers watchfulness in view of the coming of the Lord. 'Watch over your life; let your lamps be not quenched and your loins be not ungirded, but be ready, for you know not the hour in which your Lord cometh' (16.1). But as the writer goes on to speak of the Antichrist, his language is patently different from the way dispensationalists would describe the same events. There is no concept of the church being taken out of the way by means of a pre-tribulation rapture. Rather, there
shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and many shall be offended and be lost, but they who endure in their faith shall be saved by the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: but not all the dead, but as it was said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.
It is not necessary for us at this point to examine each of the post-apostolic writers. A good survey of this data has been given by George E. Ladd in his book, The Blessed Hope. Ladd very ably demonstrates the absence of the dispensationalist concept of the pre-tribulation rapture. And no dispensationalist has been able to prove otherwise. The premillennialism that sometimes is expressed by the writers of the early church is no proof of the presence of dispensationalism. Nor is it a necessary deduction that this early chilaism was primarily the result of a study of the Scriptures. Chiliastic views were extensively circulated in the early church through such Jewish or Jewish-Christian writings as Enoch, 4 Esdras, Assumption of Moses, Ascension of Isaiah, Psalms of Solomon, and Baruch, all writings which neither Jews nor Christians regarded as canonical. This Jewish chilaism has been well documented and discussed in Geerhardus Vos' The Pauline Eschatology.3

Another method used by dispensationalists to lend historical respectability to their doctrine is to go to the Fathers and find examples of those who divided redemptive history into various epochs. Dispensationalists using this means of support are Arnold H. Ehlert4 and Charles C. Ryrie5. What these writers have failed to do, however, is to demonstrate that any of the works produced by the early church Fathers possess unmistakable evidences of promulgating those things essential to dispensationalism. Ryrie quotes Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Augustine6, as those who had the dispensational concept as part of their viewpoint. However, none of those to whom he appeals gives evidence of making a radical distinction between Israel and the church as two separate peoples of God. Yet this is at the very heart of dispensationalism and is included by Ryrie himself as one of the sine qua non of dispensationalism7. In fact, one of those cited by Ryrie, Justin Martyr, clearly indicates in his 'Dialogue with Trypho' his regard for the church as being the true Israel (chapters 123, 124, 125, 135).

It is difficult to assess the extent to which the early church held the premillennial view. But the emphasis that many of its advocates placed upon earthly rewards and carnal delights aroused widespread opposition to it, and it was soon replaced to a large extent by the 'spiritual' view of Augustine. He saw the millennium being fulfilled spiritually in the Christian church, the binding of Satan having taken place during the earthly ministry of our Lord. The new birth of the believer, according to Augustine, was the first resurrection in Rev. 20. He interpreted Rev. 20:1-6 as a 'recapitulation' of the preceding chapters, instead of describing a new age following chronologically the events of chapter 19. The 1000 years he took to be literal years, and he expected Christ's return at the end of that period. This spiritual interpretation of the millennium has been influential to a great degree on into the Middle Ages and beyond.

Here is a intresting quote from a larger article here:

Thanks. I'm a little confused at where he was going with this article. He uses lots of big "Churchian" words like "dispensationalist". He quotes the Bible once and 'Twelve Reasons why you should use THE SCOFIELD REFERENCE BIBLE' once. He doesn't cite his references except to say "x people thought this" and "y people thought that".

Thanks to this thread there are now two things I'm now sure of: I'm not a preterist and I'm not a dispensationalist.

Any more boxes I can try on? Hehe.

Barnabas (40-100): "The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches...for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger....That the Black One [Antichrist] may find no means of entrance..." (Epistle of Barnabas, 4).

Clement of Rome (40-100): "...the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'Speedily will He come, and will not tarry'; and, 'The Lord shall suddenly come [Matthew 24:30 coming] to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look'" (I Clement, 23).

Hermas (40-140): "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire [of the Great Tribulation that is yet to come], will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints..." (The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 4).

Polycarp (70-167): "He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead" (Epistle to the Philippians, II).

Justin Martyr (100-168): "The man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue With Trypho, 110).

Melito (100-170): "For with all his strength did the adversary assail us, even then giving a foretaste of his activity among us [during the Great Tribulation] which is to be without restraint..." (Discourse on the Resurrection, i, 8).

Irenaeus (140-202): "And they [the ten kings who shall arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V, 26).

Tertullian (150-220): "The souls of the martyrs are taught to wait [Rev. 6]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God..." (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 25).

Hippolytus (160-240): "...the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains" (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Cyprian (200-258): "The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).

Victorinus (240-303): "...the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured" (Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5).

Lactantius (240-330): "And power will be given him [Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty-two months....When these things shall so happen, then the righteous and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the wicked, and flee into solitudes" (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).

Athanasius (293-373): "...they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist" (History of the Arians, VIII, 79).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Pseudo-Ephraem (4th century?): "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]..." (On the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand" (Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).

Jerome (340-420): "I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before" (Epistle 21).

Chrysostom (345-407): "...the time of Antichrist...will be a sign of the coming of Christ..." (Homilies on First Thessalonians, 9).

Augustine (354-430): "But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).

Venerable Bede (673-735): "[The Church's triumph will] follow the reign of Antichrist" (The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II, 8).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153): "There remains only one thing----that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ..." (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274): "...because of future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

John Wycliffe (1320-1384): "Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii" (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155).

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

William Tyndale (1492-1536): "...antichrist preacheth not Peter's doctrine (which is Christ's gospel)...he compelleth all men with violence of sword" (Greenslade's The Work of William Tindale, p. 127).

Menno Simons (1496-1561): "...He will appear as a triumphant prince and a victorious king to bring judgment. Then will those who persecute us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings..., p. 622).

John Calvin (1509-1564): "...we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church" (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).

John Knox (1515-1572): "...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarn of dangers to come, so many years before they come to pass...to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babylon" (The History of the Reformation..., I, p. 76).

John Fox (1516-1587): "...that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church of Christ..." (Acts and Monuments, I).

Roger Williams (1603-1683): "Antichrist...hath his prisons, to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast..." (The Bloody Tenent, of Persecution, p. 153).

John Bunyan (1628-1688): "He comes in flaming fire [as Judge] and...the trump of God sounds in the air, the dead to hear his voice..." (The Last Four Things: Of Judgment).

Daniel Whitby (1638-1726): "...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church...so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary, p. 696).

Increase Mather (1639-1723): "That part of the world [Europe] was to be principally the Seat of the Church of Christ during the Reign of Antichrist" (Ichabod, p. 64).

Matthew Henry (1662-1714): "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]" (Commentary, VI, p. 1134).

Cotton Mather (1663-1728): "...that New Jerusalem, whereto the Church is to be advanced, when the Mystical Babylon shall be fallen" (The Wonders of the Invisible World, p. 3).

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758): "...continuance of Antichrist's reign [when the Church is persecuted] did not commence before the year of Christ 479..." (A History of the Work of Redemption, p. 217).

John Wesley (1703-1791): "'The stars shall...fall from heaven,' (Revelation, vi. 13)....And then shall be heard the universal shout...followed by the 'voice of the archangel,'...'and the trumpet of God'...(I Thessalonians iv. 16)." (The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., Vol. V, p. 173).

George Whitefield (1714-1770): "...'while the bridegroom tarried,' in the space of time which passeth between our Lord's ascension and his coming again to judgment..." (Gillies' Memoirs of Rev. George Whitefield, p. 471).

David Brainerd (1718-1747): "...and I could not but hope, that the time was at hand, when Babylon the great would fall and rise no more" (Memoirs..., p. 326).

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795): "[Antichrist] has hitherto assumed no higher title than 'the vicar general of Christ on earth'..." (Two Academical Exercises etc., p. 20).

John Newton (1725-1807): "'Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past'" (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).

Adam Clarke (1762-1832): "We which are alive, and remain...he [Paul] is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment" (Commentary, Vol. VI, p. 550).

Charles G. Finney (1792-1875): "Christ represents it as impossible to deceive the elect. Matt. 24:24. We have seen that the elect unto salvation includes all true christians." (Lectures on Systematic Theology, p. 606).

Charles Hodge (1797-1878): "...the fate of his Church here on earth...is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology, Vol. III, p. 827).

Albert Barnes (1798-1870): "...he will keep them in the future trials that shall come upon the world [Revelation 3:10]" (Notes on the New Testament, p. 94).

George Mueller (1805-1898): "The Scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have taken place, and the man of sin...shall have been revealed..." (Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).

Benjamin W. Newton (1805-1898): "The Secret Rapture was bad enough, but this [John Darby's equally novel idea that the book of Matthew is on 'Jewish' ground instead of 'Church' ground] was worse" (unpublished Fry MS. and F. Roy Coad's Prophetic Developments, p. 29).

R. C. Trench (1807-1886): "...the Philadelphian church...to be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation..." (Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-184).

Carl F. Keil (1807-1888): "...the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503).

Henry Alford (1810-1871): "Christ is on His way to this earth [I Thessalonians 4:17]..." (The New Testament for English Readers, Vol. II, p. 491).

John Lillie (1812-1867): "In his [Antichrist's] days was to be the great----the last----tribulation of the Church" (Second Thessalonians, pp. 537-538).

F. L. Godet (1812-1900): "The gathering of the elect [Matthew24:31]...is mentioned by St. Paul, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, 2 Thess. 2:1..." (Commentary on Luke, p. 452).

Robert Murray McCheyne (1813-1842): "Christians must have 'great tribulation'; but they come out of it" (Bonar's Memoirs of McCheyne, p. 26).

S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875): "The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret theory bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation" (The Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71).

Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890): "...the approaching day is the day of Christ, who comes...for final judgment" (Commentary on Hebrews, Vol. II, p. 183).

C. J. Ellicott (1819-1905): "[I Thessalonians 4:17] 'to meet the Lord,' as He is coming down to earth..." (Commentary on the Thessalonian Epistles, p. 66).

Nathaniel West (1826-1906): "[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built on a postulate, vicious in logic, violent in exegesis, contrary to experience, repudiated by the early Church, contradicted by the testimony of eighteen hundred years...and condemned by all the standard scholars of every age" (The Apostle Paul and the "Any Moment" Theory, p. 30).

Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910): "He will keep us in the midst of, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]" (The Epistles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).

J. H. Thayer (1828-1901): "To keep [Revelation 3:10]:...by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 622).

Adolph Saphir (1831-1891): "...the advent of the Messiah...to which both the believing synagogue and the church of the Lord Jesus Christ are looking..." (The Epistle to the Hebrews, Vol. I, p. 96).

M. R. Vincent (1834-1922): "The preposition ['from'] implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation [Revelation 3:10]..." (Word Studies..., p. 466).

William J. Erdman (1834-1923): "...by the 'saints' seen as future by Daniel and by John are meant 'the Church'..." (Notes on the Book of Revelation, p. 47).

H. Grattan Guinness (1835-1910): "...the Church is on earth during the action of the Apocalypse..." (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136).

H. B. Swete (1835-1917): "The promise [of Revelation 3:10], as Bede says, is 'not indeed of your being immune from adversity, but of not being overcome by it'" (The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 56).

William G. Moorehead (1836-1914): "...the last days of the Church's deepest humiliation when Antichrist is practicing and prospering (Dan. viii:12)..." (Outline Studies in the New Testament, p. 123).

A. H. Strong (1836-1921): "The final coming of Christ is referred to in: Mat. 24:30...[and] I Thess. 4:16..." (Systematic Theology, p. 567).

Theodor Zahn (1838-1933): "...He will preserve...at the time of the great temptation [Revelation 3:10]..." (Zahn-Kommentar, I, p. 305).

I. T. Beckwith (1843-1936): "The Philadelphians...are promised that they shall be carried in safety through the great trial [Revelation 3:10], they shall not fall" (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484).

Robert Cameron (1845-1922): "The Coming for, and the Coming with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction, viz., two Second Comings which is an absurdity" (Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 16).

B. B. Warfield (1851-1921): "...He shall come again to judgment...to close the dispensation of grace..." (Biblical Doctrines, p. 639).

David Baron (1855-1926): "(Tit. ii. 13), for then the hope as regards the church, and Israel, and the world, will be fully realised" (Visions of Zechariah, p. 323).

Philip Mauro (1859-1952): "...'dispensational teaching' is modernistic in the strictest sense...it first came into existence within the memory of persons now living..." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p. 8).

A. T. Robertson (1863-1934): "In Rev. 3:10...we seem to have the picture of general temptation with the preservation of the saints" (A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 596).

R. C. H. Lenski (1864-1936): "...it [Philadelphia] shall be kept untouched and unharmed by the impending dangers [Revelation 3:10]" (The Interpretation of St. John's Revelation, pp. 146-146).

William E. Biederwolf (1867-1939): "Godet, like most pre-millennial expositors, makes no provision for any period between the Lord's coming for His saints and His coming with them..." (The Second Coming Bible, p. 385).

Alexander Reese (1881-1969): "...we quite deliberately reject the dispensational theories, propounded first about 1830..." (The Approaching Advent of Christ, p. 293).

Norman S. MacPherson (1899-1980): "...the view that the Church will not pass into or through the Great Tribulation is based largely upon arbitrary interpretations of obscure passages" (Triumph Through Tribulation, p. 5).

Thanks GrannieAnnie.

I particularly agreed with

Augustine (354-430): "But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).

...and...

Robert Cameron (1845-1922): "The Coming for, and the Coming with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction, viz., two Second Comings which is an absurdity" (Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 16).

Btw, I'm not saying antichrist won't come. I'm saying literalists who believe in a temporal kingdom are in danger of mistaking him for Christ.

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." (MAR 13:22)

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." (REV 20:3)

Unless, as the literalists claim, after Jesus arrives in the Second Coming, kicks Satan's butt, and plants His millenial kingdom - Christ, [b]The King of the Whole Universe[/b] - will loose Satan from his chains after the thousand years and surrender the Earth, yet again, to the devil. If the Temporal/Heavenly Kingdom's on Earth, and the Glory of Christ's fleshly presence shines upon all men, who does Satan have left to deceive?

Jesus kicked his butt at Calvary and he'll knock him into the Abyss again at the end of time. The Earth will dissolve in "fervent heat" when the Lord returns with His saints. He will judge the souls of the spiritually "quick and the dead", angels and men alike. He will reward the righteous with glorified bodies and will cast the wicked into the lake of fire. He will create a "new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness" where His saints and angels will behold His Majesty for all eternity while the wicked and demons suffer eternal immolation.

No need to make it more convoluted or confusing than that.

The dragon's wearing wool. He'd love nothing more than to lead Christians everywhere to believe that Christ will hightail it off Earth after the Millenial reign.

But Christ won't run away. Not ever.

Hia Corey, There will be a "man" called the anti-Christ who will be coming in the not to far future. The false Prophet, that many of us believe will be the pope will endorse him, Rev. 13, besides some through out Daniel.

And we see those two guys going their way here ... Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. [u]The two were thrown alive[/u] into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.

Right after that Satan is bound. With no divisions of Chpt.s and verses in the original it 'is' right after ... Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
Rev 20:3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

Unless, as the literalists claim, after Jesus arrives in the Second Coming, kicks Satan's butt, and plants His millenial kingdom - Christ, The King of the Whole Universe - will loose Satan from his chains after the thousand years and surrender the Earth, yet again, to the devil. If the Temporal/Heavenly Kingdom's on Earth, and the Glory of Christ's fleshly presence shines upon all men, who does Satan have left to deceive?

Oh yeah, He and his army that follows Him and us who are caught up with them to meet Him and them in the air will definitely be kicking butt.
He's coming back only once to stay and to hand out judgment and rewards all at the same time.
He said, "I come and my reward is with me" and tons of Scripture about the judgment He'll cause on earth at His appearing.

The ones who will be left for Satan to deceive will be those who we are ruling and reigning over for those thousand years. The O.T. speaks of those who age slowly and have babies, etc., and are ruled with a rod of iron ... these are those who didn't take the mark and the remnant of Jews who looked upon Him who they have pierced and mourn as for a son, and probably carnal christians. They will still have their earthly bodies through-out the millenial reign, for it says that an old man will be like a child, age wise, yet not in a glorified body as the First Resurrection folks will.

No where does it say that Christ will leave here once here. Oh no, never leaving again, because after the 1000 years, (which Peter didn't get into, because John had not had the Revelation yet) he only quoted what they knew from the O.T..

But after the 1000 years, "that's" when the earth and the heavens will make room for the new heavens and earth and for the New Jerusalem to come down out of Heaven and GOD as the three in one, will no longer be three seperate persons, but will be here in the New Jerusalem as He was ONE in the Garden of Eden with Adam.

Rev 20 and 21 are written chronologically and you can see it all there if read at face value.
The earth is not destroyed until after the millenium according to these two chapters.
Like I said, Peter left out the full Revelation, because nevertheless, what Peter said "will" happen, just not in the immediate sequence that his writing seems to imply. He wrote this before John's Revelation, which was written around the early 90's A.D..

You are right, that many will believe the anti-Christ 'is' Christ. That's the problem with pre-trib .... when anti-Christ appears, they will say "This can't be him, we're Still here".

That's why Paul stressed that that day will not come until there is an Apostasy first and that man of sin is revealed.
The word "revealed" is only used for "divine revelation to the Saints only".

Jesus, The Father and Their Spirit will be ONE in the end. That's major, because it proves the Deity of Christ and just how ONE the three are.
They are One God. Neat !!! And will dwell with us and wipe away our tears and we will be His sons. Neat again. All that He planned for Adam initially, but way beyond better.
If Adam had just eaten from the Tree of Life. But it's been a very GOD exalting display of love these last 6000 years or so. LOVE wins out in the End.

Just read Rev 20 and 21 slowly and literally and it'll be clear as a bell to you. It's a wonderful end to this Story.

Yeeeeeeeeeeee-haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

:-D

I particularly agreed with

There was given a list of anti-nicen father quotes and you just choose the 2 that you agreed with. Either we have to say that the majority of the fathers were into error early on after the apostles teaching a literal 1000 year kingdom, and tribulation period, or the augustine and others are wrong and the other majority of fathers were right.

We cannot just choose what we want to believe but really look at it hard and straight if its scriptural and what the apostles and early Christians believed. I do agree that the early church fathers could be off one some doctrinal teachings and practices even though accepted by most of them. But we cannot use it as a rule to look over what they believed as a majority. I thought I would just challenge you on this face to reconsider the plain history of this. I would also challenge you to go and read and research the early church fathers more exhaustively on this subject.

GrannieAnnie,

I've read my Bible back to front more than a few times over the years - I know my scripture.

IRONMAN said

yes Peter was looking (and so do we) for this new heaven and earth which has been purged of ALL evil and this happens at the end of the 1000 yr reign because at the end of this 1000 yrs, satan will be loosed once more to deceive for a short period and gather up an army and once more attck Jerusalem but then he shall be vanquished finally and all his minions will be cast into the lake of fire forever.

I see. So evils like rape, theft, and murder will still be practiced in Christ's Millenial Kingdom? Please.

JaySaved said of IRONMAN's post

I agree with you that the "Day of the Lord" is not necessarily a 24 hour period, but I disagree with where you are going with the "two comings".

Hehe. The "Day of the Lord" might not be a 24-hour period? Then what of the six literal 24-hour days of Creation...

Greg said

There was given a list of anti-nicen father quotes and you just choose the 2 that you agreed with. Either we have to say that the majority of the fathers were into error early on after the apostles teaching a literal 1000 year kingdom, and tribulation period, or the augustine and others are wrong and the other majority of fathers were right.

Greg, I am willing to comment on any quote contained in that post that supports the argument for a literal, physical Millennial reign of Christ on Earth. I didn't find one.

Nowhere did anyone say anyting to the effect of "believers will float into the sky" or "Jesus will rule from the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem", etc.

They pretty much all agreed that, "antichrist will come... the righteous will be fiercely persecuted... then the end will come... all men will stand before God" (paraphrased).

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I believe the place where you're going wrong is that you folks have been taught that "it's like this" - whether pre- post- a- or whatever-millennial - and you've bought the other big churchian words like "dispensationalist" and "preterist" hook, line, and sinker.

Christianity has devolved into a multiple choice test where you memorize the glossary of the unholy book [b]The Doctrines of Men[/b] and choose where you stand. Preterist, millenialist, blah, blah, blah... how dreadfully boring.

The problem is, no one dares to just prayerfully read the Bible and let the Holy Ghost interpret. No one exercises [b]his or her right as a son or daughter of Almighty God[/b] to think critically, ask questions, and - gasp - make up his own mind.

Have we all come to a point where we've been so domesticated and neutered by Babylon that we need to buy more books, tapes, and tickets to seminars on Eschatology from the Christian Industrial Complex? [b]Must we, the Sons and Daughters of God, keep paying this Diseased Whore for spiritual guidance?[/b]

Ask yourself these questions:

Have I formed my opinions because of a book I've read - or a sermon I've heard - or a costly convention I've attended? Or because I read the Bible alone in my bedroom and prayerfully meditated on its precepts? Is the Holy Ghost capable of interpreting the Bible for me? Or do I require a holier man than me to instruct me?

"Let God be true, but every man a liar." (ROM 3:4)

And this is why I flip out everytime I hear about this carnal literal thousand year reign of Christ:

Because when antichrist comes, he will probably seem to be a really great guy and will have all the answers to the world's problems - and He'll sit in the Temple (maybe in Jerusalem) and declare himself to be Messiah and/or God.

And that's exactly who you literalists are looking for.

Irenaeus: (AD. 120-202)
"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

Justin Martyr: (AD. 110-165)
"[T]wo advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus." [Dialog with Trypho, CX]

[b]FUTURIST or HISTORICIST?[/b]
The early Christians did not believe they were in the tribulation, as is claimed by some. They considered the revelation of Antichrist to be entirely future, as well as the appearance of the two witnesses. They believed the Antichrist would defile and rule from the Temple in Jerusalem. And remember, the Jews had been driven from Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed in AD. 70, and Roman law at the time forbid them from returning. These Church Fathers expected that Rome would fall and be replaced by the ten kings. Then Antichrist would arise and take over the kingdom, the Jews would be restored back to Jerusalem, and Antichrist would rebuild the Temple. Only afterward would the Antichrist commit the "abomination of desolation," and then persecute the Church. They held a literal "futurist" view of Revelation, just as pre-tribbers do today, minus the pre-trib rapture.

Hippolytus: (AD. 170-236)
"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28]

more quotes from early church fathers:

Didache: (1st Century)
"Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." [Didache, XVI]

Barnabas: (1st Century)
"The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, “For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance.” And the prophet also speaks thus: “Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings. In like manner Daniel says concerning the same, “And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and more savage than all the beasts of the earth, and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the great horns.” Ye ought therefore to understand. ... We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God. That the Black One may find no means of entrance, let us flee from every vanity, let us utterly hate the works of the way of wickedness. ... Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. And all the more attend to this, my brethren, when ye reflect and behold, that after so great signs and wonders were wrought in Israel, they were thus [at length] abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” [Epistle of Barnabas, IV]

Irenaeus (AD120-202)
"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. ... And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." [Against Heresies, Book V, XXVI]

"This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: “Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God.” The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped — that is, above every idol — for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavor in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God. 2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavoring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.”" [Against Heresies, Book V, XXV,1&2]

"This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one “who feared not God, neither regarded man,” to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God, — that is, the earthly Jerusalem, — to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that city, and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: “And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice, and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously.” ... And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: And in the midst of the week, he says, the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation shall be brought into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete. Now three years and six months constitute the half-week." [Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 2]

"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”" [Against Heresies, V, XXX, 4]

Hippolytus (AD170-236)
"When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist will appear among them. When he makes war against the saints, and persecutes them, then may we expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven." [Hippolytus, On Daniel, II, 7]

"For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world...." [Hippolytus, On Daniel, II, 22]

"Thus, then, does the prophet set forth these things concerning the Antichrist, who shall be shameless, a war-maker, and despot, who, exalting himself above all kings and above every God, shall build the city of Jerusalem, and restore the sanctuary. Him the impious will worship as God, and will bend to him the knee, thinking him to be the Christ. He shall cut off the two witnesses and forerunners of Christ, who proclaim His glorious kingdom from heaven, as it is said: “And I will give (power) unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.” As also it was announced to Daniel: “And one week shall confirm a covenant with many; and in the midst of the week it shall be that the sacrifice and oblation shall be removed” — that the one week might be shown to be divided into two. The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during the test of the week, and desolate the world, that what is written may be fulfilled: “And they shall make the abomination of desolation for a thousand two hundred and ninety days.” [Hippolytus, On Daniel, II, 39]

"By the stretching forth of His two hands He signified His passion; and by mentioning “a time, and times, and an half, when the dispersion is accomplished,” He indicated the three years and a half of Antichrist. For by “a time” He means a year, and by “times” two years, and by an “half time” half a year. These are the thousand two hundred and ninety days of which Daniel prophesied for the finishing of the passion, and the accomplishment of the dispersion when Antichrist comes. In those days they shall know all these things. And from the time of the removal of the continuous sacrifice there are also reckoned one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Then) iniquity shall abound, as the Lord also says: “Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.” And that divisions will arise when the falling away takes place, is without doubt. And when divisions arise, love is chilled. The words, “Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days,” have also their value, as the Lord said: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Wherefore let us by no means admit the falling away, lest iniquity abound, and the abomination of desolation — that is, the adversary — overtake us. [Hippolytus, On Daniel, II, 43,44]

"“And I inquired about the fourth beast.” It is to the fourth kingdom, of which we have already spoken, that he here refers: that kingdom, than which no greater kingdom of like nature has arisen upon the earth; from which also ten horns are to spring, and to be apportioned among ten crowns. And amid these another little horn shall rise, which is that of Antichrist. And it shall pluck by the roots the three others before it; that is to say, he shall subvert the three kings of Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia, with the view of acquiring for himself universal dominion. And after conquering the remaining seven horns, he will at last begin, inflated by a strange and wicked spirit, to stir up war against the saints, and to persecute all everywhere, with the aim of being glorified by all, and being worshipped as God." [Hippolytus, On Daniel, III, 7:19]

"For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb; so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. ... The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. And his seductive arts we shall exhibit in what follows. But for the present let us turn to the question in hand." [Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 6].

"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey.
The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28]

"But it becomes us further diligently to examine and set forth the period at which these things shall come to pass, and how the little horn shall spring up in their midst. For when the legs of iron have issued in the feet and toes, according to the similitude of the image and that of the terrible beast, as has been shown in the above, (then shall be the time) when the iron and the clay shall be mingled together. Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease. By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations. For John says, And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. That is the half of the week whereof Daniel spake. These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the Lord of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire will proceed out of their mouth, and devour their enemies; and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 43, 47]

"Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus, "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.... These things then, being come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 60, 61, 64]

"For he says, I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed. For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times. And the half of the week the two prophets, along with John, will take for the purpose of proclaiming to all the world the advent of Antichrist, that is to say, for a thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth; and they will work signs and wonders with the object of making men ashamed and repentant, even by these means, on account of their surpassing lawlessness and impiety. And if any man will hurt them, fire will proceed out of their mouth, and devour their enemies. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of the advent of Antichrist, and to turn waters into blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will.” And when they have proclaimed all these things they will fall on the sword, cut off by the accuser. And they will fulfill their testimony, as Daniel also says; for he foresaw that the beast that came up out of the abyss would make war with them, namely with Enoch, Elias, and John, and would overcome them, and kill them, because of their refusal to give glory to the accuser. That is the little horn that sprang up. And he, being lifted up in heart, begins in the end to, exalt himself and glorify himself as God, persecuting the saints and blaspheming Christ." [Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXI]

"And at first, indeed, that deceitful and lawless one, with crafty deceitfulness, will refuse such glory; but the men persisting, and holding by him, will declare him king. And thereafter he will be lifted up in heart, and he who was formerly gentle will become violent, and he who pursued love will become pitiless, and the humble in heart will become haughty and inhuman, and the hater of unrighteousness will persecute the righteous. Then, when he is elevated to his kingdom, he will marshal war; and in his wrath he will smite three mighty kings, — those, namely, of Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. And after that he will build the temple in Jerusalem, and will restore it again speedily, and give it over to the Jews. And then he will be lifted up in heart against every man; yea, he will speak blasphemy also against God, thinking in his deceit that he shall be king upon the earth hereafter for ever; not knowing, miserable wretch, that his kingdom is to be quickly brought to nought, and that he will quickly have to meet the fire which is prepared for him, along with all who trust him and serve him. For when Daniel said, “I shall make my covenant for one week,” he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week — that is to say, for three years and a half — Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, ye who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone. Then the lawless one, being lifted up in heart, will gather together his demons in man’s form, and will abominate those who call him to the kingdom, and will pollute many souls." [Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXV]

"As these things, therefore, of which we have spoken before are in the future, beloved, when the one week is divided into parts, and the abomination of desolation has arisen then, and the forerunners of the Lord have finished their proper course, and the whole world, in fine, comes to the consummation, what remains but the manifestation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Son of God, from heaven, for whom we have hoped; who shall bring forth fire and all just judgment against those who have refused to believe in Him? For the Lord says, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be; for wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”" [Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXXVI]

Cyprian: (AD200-258)
"For even Antichrist, when he shall begin to come, shall not enter into the Church because he threatens; neither shall we yield to his arms and violence, because he declares that he will destroy us if we resist. ... It matters nothing to us by whom, or when we are slain, since we shall receive from the Lord the reward of our death and of our blood. Their concision is to be mourned and lamented, whom the devil so blinds, that, without considering the eternal punishments of Gehenna, they endeavor to imitate the coming of Antichrist, who is now approaching." [Cyprian, Epistle LIV, 19]

For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle; nor consider anything but the glory of life eternal, and the crown of the confession of the Lord; and not regard those things which are coming as being such as were those which have passed away. A severer and a fiercer fight is now threatening, for which the soldiers of Christ ought to prepare themselves with uncorrupted faith and robust courage, considering that they drink the cup of Christ’s blood daily, for the reason that they themselves also may be able to shed their blood for Christ. For this is to wish to be found with Christ, to imitate that which Christ both taught and did, according to the Apostle John, who said, “He that saith he abideth in Christ, ought himself also so to walk even as He walked.” Moreover, the blessed Apostle Paul exhorts and teaches, saying, “We are God’s children; but if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.” [Cyprian, Epistle LV, 1]

"Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands. He is to be feared whose anger no one can escape, as He Himself forewarns, and says: “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.” And again: “He that loveth his life, shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world, shall keep it unto life eternal.” And in the Apocalypse He instructs and forewarns, saying, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; and they shall have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.” [Cyprian, Epistle LV, 7]

"Nor let it disturb you, dearest brethren, if with some, in these last times, either an uncertain faith is wavering, or a fear of God without religion is vacillating, or a peaceable concord does not continue. These things have been foretold as about to happen in the end of the world; and it was predicted by the voice of the Lord, and by the testimony of the apostles, that now that the world is failing, and the Antichrist is drawing near, everything good shall fail, but evil and adverse things shall prosper." [Cyprian, Epistle LVXVII, 7]

"Lo, virgins depart in peace, safe with their glory, not fearing the threats of the coming Antichrist, and his corruptions and his brothels." [Cyprian, Treatise VII, 15]

"You have desired, beloved Fortunatus that, l since the burden of persecutions and afflictions is lying heavy upon us, and in the ending and completion of the world the hateful time of Antichrist is already beginning to draw near, I would collect from the sacred Scriptures some exhortations for preparing and strengthening the minds of the brethren, whereby I might animate the soldiers of Christ for the heavenly and spiritual contest." [Cyprian, Treatise, XI, 1]

some more early church father quotes:

Epistle of Barnabas: (AD. 100)
"The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, "For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance." And the prophet also speaks thus: "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings." In the like manner Daniel says concerning the same, "And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and the more savage than all the beasts of the earth and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the ten horns. ... We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole (past) time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh sons of God. That the Black One may find no means of entrance, let us flee from every vanity, let us utterly hate the works of the way of wickedness." [Epistle of Barnabas, IV]

Irenaeus: (AD. 120-202)
"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, ... These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings. ... And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." [Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1]

"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware of who he is:... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." [Against Heresies V, XXX, 2,4]

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one." [Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1]

The Shepherd of Hermas: (2nd Century)
"You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great glory. Stand steadfast, therefore, ye who work righteousness, and doubt not, that your passage may be with the holy angels. Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. For the Lord hath sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair, for even now these are to deny Him in the days that are coming." [Third Vision]

"Twenty days after the former vision I saw another vision, brethren a representation of the tribulation that is to come. I was going to a country house along the Campanian road. Now the house lay about ten furlongs from the public road. The district is one rarely traversed. And as I walked alone, I prayed the Lord to complete the revelations which He had made to me through His holy Church, that He might strengthen me, and give repentance to all His servants who were going astray, that His great and glorious name might be glorified because He vouchsafed to show me His marvels. And while I was glorifying Him and giving Him thanks, a voice, as it were, answered me, Doubt not, Hermas; and I began to think with myself, and to say, What reason have I to doubt I who have been established by the Lord, and who have seen such glorious sights? I advanced a little, brethren, and, lo! I see dust rising even to the heavens. I began to say to myself, Are cattle approaching and raising the dust? It was about a furlong’s distance from me. And, lo! I see the dust rising more and more, so that I imagined that it was something sent from God. But the sun now shone out a little, and, lo! I see a mighty beast like a whale, and out of its mouth fiery locusts proceeded. But the size of that beast was about a hundred feet, and it had a head like an urn. I began to weep, and to call on the Lord to rescue me from it. Then I remembered the word which I had heard, Doubt not, O Hermas. Clothed, therefore, my brethren, with faith in the Lord, and remembering the great things which He had taught me, I boldly faced the beast. Now that beast came on with such noise and force, that it could itself have destroyed a city. I came near it, and the monstrous beast stretched itself out on the ground, and showed nothing but its tongue, and did not stir at all until I had passed by it. Now the beast had four colors on its head-black, then fiery and bloody, then golden, and lastly white. Now after I had passed by the wild beast, and had moved forward about thirty feet, lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber, clothed entirely in white, and with white sandals, and veiled up to her forehead, and her head was covered by a hood. And she had white hair. I knew from my former visions that this was the Church, and I became more joyful. She saluted me, and said, Hail, O man! And I returned her salutation, and said, Lady, hail! And she answered. and said to me, Has nothing crossed your path? I say, I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord and His great mercy I escaped from it. Well did you escape from it, says she, because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than by His great and glorious name. On this account the Lord has sent His angel, who has rule over the beasts, and whose name is Thegri, and has shut up its mouth, so that it cannot tear you. You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord, and He will direct them. Trust the Lord, ye who doubt, for He is all-powerful, and can turn His anger away from you, and send scourges on the doubters. Woe to those who hear these words, and despise them: better were it for them not to have been born. I asked her about the four colors which the beast had on his head. And she answered, and said to me, Again you are inquisitive in regard to such matters. Yea, Lady, said I, make known to me what they are. Listen, said she: the black is the world in which we dwell: but the fiery and bloody points out that the world must perish through blood and fire: but the golden part are you who have escaped from this world. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing. Remember those things which were written down before. And saying this, she departed. But I saw not into what place she retired. There was a noise, however, and I turned round in alarm, thinking that that beast was coming. [The Shepherd of Hermas, Fourth Vision]

Tertullian: (AD. 145-220)
"In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view, which "the souls of the martyrs" are taught to wait for beneath the altar, whilst they earnestly pray to be avenged and judged: (taught, I say, to wait), in order that the world may first drink to the dregs the plagues that await it out of the vials of the angels, and that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; and that, after the casting of the devil into the bottomless pit for a while, the blessed prerogative of the first resurrection may be obtained from the thrones; and then again, after the consignment of him to the fire, that the judgment of the final and universal resurrection may be determined out of the books. Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world." [On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XXV]

"Now the privilege of this favor [the resurrection] awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." [On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XLI]

Hippolytus: (AD. 170-236)
"It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 5]

"With respect to his name, it is not in our power to explain it exactly, as the blessed John understood it and was instructed about it, but only to give a conjectural account of it; for when he appears, the blessed one will show us what we seek to know. ... Wherefore we ought neither to give it out as if this were certainly his name, nor again ignore the fact that he may not otherwise be designated. But having the mystery of God in our heart, we ought in fear to keep faithfully what has been told us by blessed prophets, in order that when those things come to pass, we may be prepared for them, and not be deceived. For when the times advance, he too, of whom these things are said, will be manifest." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 50]

"Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus, "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.... These things then, being come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 60, 61, 64]

Cyprian: (AD. 200-258)
"[T]he Lord hath foretold that these things would come. With the exhortation of His forseeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come. He predicted and said that wars, and famines, and earthquakes, and pestilences would arise in each place; and lest an unexpected and new dread of mischiefs should shake us, He previously warned us that the adversary would increase more and more in the last times." [Treatise VII, 2]

"For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle; nor consider anything but the glory of life eternal, and the crown of the confession of the Lord; and not regard those things which are coming as being such as were those which have passed away. A severer and a fiercer fight is now threatening, for which the soldiers of Christ ought to prepare themselves with uncorrupted faith and robust courage, considering that they drink the cup of Christ’s blood daily, for the reason that they themselves also may be able to shed their blood for Christ. For this is to wish to be found with Christ, to imitate that which Christ both taught and did, according to the Apostle John, who said, “He that saith he abideth in Christ, ought himself also so to walk even as He walked.” Moreover, the blessed Apostle Paul exhorts and teaches, saying, “We are God’s children; but if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.” ... For there comes the time, beloved brethren, which our Lord long ago foretold and taught us was approaching, saying, “The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things they will do unto you, because they have not known the Father nor me. But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them.” Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times, and has instructed us for the warfare by the teaching and exhortation of His words. Peter also, His apostle, has taught that persecutions occur for the sake of our being proved, and that we also should, by the example of righteous men who have gone before us, be joined to the love of God by death and sufferings. For he wrote in his epistle, and said, “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, nor do ye fall away, as if some new thing happened unto you; but as often as ye partake in Christ’s sufferings, rejoice in all things, that when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." [Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2]

"Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands. He is to be feared whose anger no one can escape, as He Himself forewarns, and says: “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.” And again: “He that loveth his life, shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world, shall keep it unto life eternal.” And in the Apocalypse He instructs and forewarns, saying, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; and they shall have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.”

"For the secular contest men are trained and prepared, and reckon it a great glory of their honor if it should happen to them to be crowned in the sight of the people, and in the presence of the emperor. Behold a lofty and great contest, glorious also with the reward of a heavenly crown, inasmuch as God looks upon us as we struggle, and, extending His view over those whom He has condescended to make His sons, He enjoys the spectacle of our contest. God looks upon us in the warfare, and fighting in the encounter of faith; His angels look on us, and Christ looks on us. How great is the dignity, and how great the happiness of the glory, to engage in the presence of God, and to be crowned, with Christ for a judge! Let us be armed, beloved brethren, with our whole strength, and let us be prepared for the struggle with an uncorrupted mind, with a sound faith, with a devoted courage. Let the camp of God go forth to the battle-field which is appointed to us. Let the sound ones be armed, lest he that is sound should lose the advantage of having lately stood; let the lapsed also be armed, that even the lapsed may regain what he has lost: let honor provoke the whole; let sorrow provoke the lapsed to the battle. The Apostle Paul teaches us to be armed and prepared, saying, “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers, and the princes of this world and of this darkness, against spirits of wickedness in high places. Wherefore put on the whole armor, that ye may be able to withstand in the most evil day, that when ye have done all ye may stand; having your loins girt about with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of peace; taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one; and the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.” [Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 7,8]

Victorinus: (AD. ?-304)
"He speaks of Elias the prophet, who is the precursor of the times of Antichrist, for the restoration and establishment of the churches from the great and intolerable persecution." [Commentary on the Apocalypse, 7:2]

"The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing the crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles,..." [Commentary on the Apocalypse, 12:1]

"He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles. ... [T]he Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, says: "But when ye shall see the contempt which is spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, let him who readeth understand." [Commentary on the Apocalypse, 13:13]

"[T]he thousand years should be completed, that is, what is left of the sixth day, to wit, of the sixth age, which subsists of a thousand years; after this he must be loosed for a little season. The little season signifies three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." [Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3]

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles: (2nd or 3rd Century) [Anonymous]
"Be watchful for your life. "Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning, and ye like unto men who wait for their Lord, and when He will come, at even, or in the morning, or at cock-crowing, or at midnight. For at what hour they think not, the Lord will come; and if they open to Him, blessed are those servants, because they were found watching. For He will gird Himself, and will make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them." Watch therefore, and pray, that ye do not sleep unto death. For your former good deeds will not profit you, if at the last part of your life you go astray from the true faith. For in the last days false prophets shall be multiplied, and such as corrupt the Word; and the sheep shall be changed into wolves, and love into hatred: for through the abounding of iniquity the love of many shall wax cold. For men shall hate, and persecute, and betray one another. And then shall appear the deceiver of the world, the enemy of the truth, the prince of lies, whom the Lord Jesus "shall destroy with the Spirit of His mouth, who takes away the wicked with His lips; and many shall be offended at Him. But they that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and afterwards shall be the voice of a trumpet by the archangel; and in that interval shall be the revival of those that were asleep. And then shall the Lord come, and all the saints with Him, with a great concussion above the clouds, with the angels of His power, in the throne of His kingdom, to condemn the devil, the deceiver of the world, and to render to every one according to his deeds. "Then shall the wicked go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous shall go into life eternal," to inherit those things "which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man, such things as God hath prepared for them that love Him." [Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book VII, XXXI, XXXII]

Greg, thanks for all the quotations. But, again, the only literal physical kingdom they speak of is antichrist's.

I didn't read anything pertaining to a millennial reign of Christ on Earth.

Maybe I missed something?

Brother Corey, I'm sorry if I offended you with my post. It's just that when we use "our own words", that's where the contentions start, I think.

I prefer to use Scripture to speak for me, because I feel the need for showing where my ideas come from through The Word. My own words don't weigh to a hill of beans in any talk about Him.

Maybe if we just compared Scripture with Scripture from here on out, and try hard to not just "say" what is going to happen, but just show where in the Bible our thoughts come from, then maybe we could look over each other's understandings better.

Love you brother and please be patient with us.
We're all just doing our best to straighten out the picture on the wall together.

With His Love too.
Annie

Christ is returning to EARTH in great power and glory. This is one of the most foundational doctrines of Scripture. Our BODIES will be resurrected. Why? So we can all go back to heaven? Why would Christ come, resurrect our bodies, and then leave if we die and go to heaven anyway? Let's just stay there and let the earth destroy itself.

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:" (LUK 20:35)

"For [b]in the resurrection they[/b] neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but [b]are as the angels of God in heaven[/b]." (MAT 22:30)

"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." (I COR 15:40)

"So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body... As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.... And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that [b]flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God[/b]; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (I COR 15:40-52)

You've forgotten that God made the earth and called it good. You call it bad. This is an old gnostic heresy: Spirit good, flesh bad idea. God has promised to restore the earth. If He does not He makes Himself a liar and breaks His promise. This will never ever happen.

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (GEN 1:31)

Everything [i]was[/i] good, man included.

"And God looked upon [b]the earth[/b], and, behold, it [b]was corrupt[/b]; for [b]all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth[/b]. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." (GEN 6:12-13)

God now calls it corrupt.

Who's the "heretic" now?

Christ comes in glory with all heaven with Him, destroys the wicked out of the land and rules in Jerusalem, just as the Bible says. There will be no more sin, nor more rebellion, no more death, as in the Garden of Eden. There is once more that Satan will be loosed for one finally attack on UNDEFENDED Jersualem... undefended because of the perfect conditions of the Kingdom at that time.

"But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit [b]the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands[/b]; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?" (ACT 7:47-49)

"Jesus answered, [b]My kingdom is not of this world[/b]: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." (JOH 18:36)

edit: "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, [b]The kingdom of God cometh not with observation[/b]:" (LUK 17:20)

There is not one verse that says we go to heaven and are there for all eternity. It's not the Christian hope. The blessed hope is Christ's return, our resurrection and the restoration of all things. This is fundamental Christianity. Don't deceive yourself with doctrines that might SOUND good and spiritual, but in fact they are gnostic and not Biblical.

[b]"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (MAR 13:27)[/b]

Eli, it's called the "Kingdom of Heaven". Come on! Why are you defending this Earthly/Heavenly Kingdom, 1984, DoubleSpeak?

"But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal..." (MAT 6:20)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (MAT 7:21)

Notice "enter kingdom of heaven" and "my Father which is in heaven". We are going where the Father is, Eli.

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (MAT 10:33)

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (MAT 11:12)

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads... And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." (REV 12:3-8)

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (MAT 23:13)

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (MAT 24:31)

[b]"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (MAT 24:35)[/b]

"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, [b]your reward is great in heaven[/b]: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." (LUK 6:22-23)

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." (LUK 18:22)

"And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man." (JOH 1:51)

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven... That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (JOH 3:13-15)

"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (ACT 3:20-21)

Hi Lkid, Staying with Bible only is good. Not saying we all can't add something of ourselves neither, of course.

Your question is answered in these verses.

He only comes as a thief, when not expected, upon those who are not "watching and praying" and anticipating His Coming. "Watching" conveys that we "watch" all the signs that He and His Apostles gave in Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21, etc. so that we can know by these signs "when" He is due and have enough oil in our lamps, to get through the coming darkness that precedes His Coming.
So in other words ... Those who are watching for His coming "will" know when He's coming.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 [b]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing[/b].
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 [b]Watch[/b] therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, [b]watch and pray[/b]: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 13:35 [b]Watch[/b] ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, [b]Watch[/b].

Luk 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
Luk 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find [b]watching[/b]: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Luk 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Luk 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
Luk 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 [b][i]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/i][/b]
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us [b]watch[/b] and be sober.

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. [b]If therefore thou shalt 'not' watch[/b], I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

What about the day or the hour?

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (MAR 13:32)

I'd advise not worrying about "when" it will happen - since Jesus Himself didn't know.

Focus on that fact that "it will" happen, and be ever vigilent that when He comes, He finds you behaving yourself.

But don't hope for "the day of the Lord" it like some here do...

"Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." (AMO 5:18)

Strangely enough Lkid, Only the three Wise Men knew (watched) the Sign of His First Coming.

"Few there be that find it"

It says in the Greek, "most" will fall away before That day.

Pray one for another.

This would be contradictory to the "pregnancy" thing where we don't know the exact day or hour.

"Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child." (ISA 66:7)

If Isaiah's referring to the Church, her children will "come out of her" before her tribulations begin.

Just a thought.

Hey Corey, {Hey means "hi" down yonder here.}

Maybe you and I should stay over in the News section. Ha!

Hey, they say that there's an "implant" that makes the person able to project their thoughts into other folk's heads. Ha, yup another thing I've hoid. There's no end to it ... info-junkies unite - ha.

Anyhow friend, I was just thinking how you can spiritulize scripture like nobody else I've met and if I got into your mind for a while, I'd probably lose mine. :-p

Just being a pesky little sister here.

Appreciate you brother.
Fellow chip master extroidinaire.
8-)
Crazy Annie

Hey Corey, {Hey means "hi" down yonder here.}

Maybe you and I should stay over in the News section. Ha!

Hey, they say that there's an "implant" that makes the person able to project their thoughts into other folk's heads. Ha, yup another thing I've hoid. There's no end to it ... info-junkies unite - ha.

Anyhow friend, I was just thinking how you can spiritulize scripture like nobody else I've met and if I got into your mind for a while, I'd probably lose mine. :-p

Just being a pesky little sister here.

Appreciate you brother.
Fellow chip master extroidinaire.

Crazy Annie

Howdy Partner!

I don't think anyone wants in my mind - ever see the movie "Being John Malkovitch"? The story's about these three folks that discover a portal into another dimension: b-grade actor John Malkovitch's head. They begin to advertise it like a "ride" and pretty soon, John Malkovitch himself goes through the portal...

... when he comes out he exclaims, "I have seen a world that NO man should see!"

Indeed.

I suggest we put off any thought projection so long as you're a fundamentalist and I'm a whatever.

Appreciate you brother.

It seems I have a singular wit.

None of the Scriptures you've presented oppose what I am describing, and you haven't answered any of the Scriptures I've given about the Kingdom on earth.

Earlier today I remembered an article I read by a certain pastor who said something akin to "differing opinions aren't the evils in arguing it's the process of arguing that leads us astray".

Hey Corey, I understand what you're saying, though I haven't seen that movie, but we did rent Matrix cuz folks were saying things about the message in it but the only problem is, I forgot whether it was the red or blue pill that we're supposed to take. Ha.

Not trying to take this thread off course here, but just for one more post, I know what happens when folks with high IQs get a hold of the Spiritual and the other world we're unfortunately living in the midst of.
I come from a family of mensa's.

The LORD allowed me to get a disease that has dropped my IQ disconcertedly ~ plus some.

He'll do what's ever needed to get our attention.

Yup, I'm yer sis.
LORD BLESS YA.
me again

Edit: added "Ha" so no one would worry.

[b]Will the true Heretics please stand up![/b] :-P

I'm gonna just leave this link as my participation on this thread.

For the "pukkas".

Lord Bless !!!

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=6767&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Thank you brother Eli and you all for this thread.

I WANNA GO HOME ~ WHAAAAAAH !

Our Blessed Hope Always Cheers me UP!

Thanks again :-D

LORD HAVE MERCY ON US ALL.

LORD HAVE MERCY ON US ALL.

Until He Comes ~
Adios! = Go with GOD!