Freewill & Boasting

Better yet, what if the man was dead in the water, and someone came and gave him life, and carried him back to shore!!

Then he couldn't even boast of the life given him let alone anyhting else.

They are "dead even while" they "live" (1Tim 5:6)

Horrible misapplication. Here is the verse-
1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The context is not about salvation at all, and if anything further illustrates the fact that unsaved people are dead in sin, and unable to respond to God unless He gives them the ability to do so.

Here is what Thayer's says about the word "dead"
G2348
θνήσκω
thnēskō
Thayer Definition:
1) to die, to be dead
2) metaphorically to be spiritually dead

roaringlamb wrote:

unable to respond to God unless He gives them the ability to do so.

And so God offers eternal life, but we must come unto Him to get it.

Quote:
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Does not God give ability to everyone?
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Of coarse, because God wants everyone to be saved, not willing that any should perish, but that all should voluntarily turn from their sinning.

So then Jesus was lying when He said
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

or this
John 6:64 But [b]there are some of you that believe not.[/b] For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, [b]Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

Or how about this, where He is speaking of those who did not believe-
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: [b]and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.[/b]

If the only way men can come, or know is for God to do something, the it is safe to assume that those who do not come or know have not had God do that something for them to come or know. It doesn't say anything about all men being saved.

Again to use that verse from Peter is misapplication for it is speaking of the elect as that is who the letters were written to, and even the language structure points to "all of a gruop", and not "all of humanity". If God wanted all men saved they would be.

How does this Scripture confirm or contradict your example
Brother Lazarus?

Job 33

14 \tFor God may speak in one way, or in another,
\tYet man does not perceive it.
15 \tIn a dream, in a vision of the night,
\tWhen deep sleep falls upon men,
\tWhile slumbering on their beds,
16 \tThen He opens the ears of men,
\tAnd seals their instruction.
17 \tIn order to turn man from his deed,
\tAnd conceal pride from man,
18 \tHe keeps back his soul from the Pit,
\tAnd his life from perishing by the sword.
19 \t“Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,
\tAnd with strong pain in many of his bones,
20 \tSo that his life abhors bread,
\tAnd his soul succulent food.
21 \tHis flesh wastes away from sight,
\tAnd his bones stick out which once were not seen.
22 \tYes, his soul draws near the Pit,
\tAnd his life to the executioners.
23 \t“If there is a messenger for him,
\tA mediator, one among a thousand,
\tTo show man His uprightness,
24 \tThen He is gracious to him, and says,
\t“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
\tI have found a ransom’;
25 \tHis flesh shall be young like a child’s,
\tHe shall return to the days of his youth.
26 \tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
\tHe shall see His face with joy,
\tFor He restores to man His righteousness.
27 \tThen he looks at men and says,
\t“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
\tAnd it did not profit me.’
28 \tHe will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
\tAnd his life shall see the light.
29 \t“Behold, God works all these things,
\tTwice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 \tTo bring back his soul from the Pit,
\tThat he may be enlightened with the light of life.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Lazarus wrote:

Freewill is simply the ability to voluntarily want one thing and not want the other, and vise versa.

This brings to mind...

Gen. 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

According to Scripture man now is exposed to the aquisistion of the knowledge of good and evil which is provided by the spiritual world. I see free will as the "choice" one is given to whom he follows...God or Satan.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Lazarus,

Sorry I just edited my prior statement...you were too fast...

In Christ
Jeff

What always seems to be missing in our theology concerning the condition of man is the relationship that man has with the spiritual world. The idea of conscience and what that actually means. The idea of how evil is dispensed by the spiritual powers represented by Satan and his dominion. And likewise, the light that is generated by the Light that is given to all men.

In Christ
jeff

But only their own freewill.

This reminds me of this Scripture...

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

In Christ
Jeff

Lazarus,

Would you agree that the will is exercised according to the desires of the heart? If so, shouldn't the debate center on what the desires of the human heart are and where and how those desires are created? It seems to me in my humble opinion that the debate of free will seems to get stuck in a merry go round upon the command of God that man "choose" or take some other action in response to God's commands or entreaties. This choice is merely the effect of the exercise of the will and the exercise of the will is merely the effect of the cause of a particular desire in the man.

The choice or obedience is based in the will which is a response to the desires of the heart. That is where the first sin of Adam began, he desired something then exercised his will and made a choice against God and for self. The whole concept of free will to me is really a misnomer. The proper title should be "self will" versus " God's will". This would seem obvious since a solid ground of our faith that we all seem to agree on is a desire after we're saved to surrender our self will to God's will. Where did that desire come from? Most of us would agree that self will is a bad thing. Being conformed to the image of Christ is a process of the death of self will and a completely yielding to God's.

Scripture gives us a very solid answer about the desires of men's hearts before conversion and the desires of the heart after and I will not go over well covered ground in that regard.

Brother Lazarus wrote:

"Righteousness is the heart obedience, or wills obedience, to the conscience - to what a man knows is good.

Sinfulness is the heart obedience, or wills obedience, to the flesh - to whatever feels good."

"Obedience, to the conscience" is the result of the influence of the Holy Spirit of God.

"Obedience, to the flesh - to whatever feels good," is influenced by the spirit of Satan.

What do you think?

In Christ
Jeff

Our true righteousness is the Christ in us. That is Who God has made our righteousness complete. Obedience is the fruit of that righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

By the Holy Spirit: Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

by Jesus Christ:
Jhn 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Through His Faith:
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Righteousness is a Gift of God and that Gift is a Person and that Person is the "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

Our true righteousness is the Christ in us. That is Who God has made our righteousness complete. Obedience is the fruit of that righteousness.

Christ is at the right hand of the Father in heaven. It is the Holy Spirit's work to conform us into His Son's image...

So how do we learn about His righteousness?

In Christ
Jeff

If you will read John 14,15,16,17 you will see what the Holy Spirits job is. This is just some of what He is: Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Most of All the Holy Spirit is the sealer of our salvation of Christ in us.

Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Rom 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Then He is our Teacher of the Spirit of this Christ that is in us. The Holy Spirit will bring us to this conformity by teaching us who Christ is and how He Christ conforms us to Himself that we might be the son's of God.

The Spirit of Christ in us is the Life of Christ in us and we will bring forth Fruit, that is the Fruit of the Vine, we are His branches and we bring forth the Fruit that is from the Root and the vinedresser who is God the Father. He produces the Fruit in us by the Vine Jesus Christ taught by the Holy Spirit what that fruit is.

The Spirit of Christ makes us the Vine Dressers branches and fruit through the Vine, which is Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

If you see the power of the Holy Spirit taught Paul to teach us who Christ is. Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

This is our life in Christ by His Power.
1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Life in Christ, all understanding and knowing by the power of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Jesse wrote:

Both the Holy Spirit and also evil Spirits operate with free moral agents (individuals) through influence, and not force or causation, since personal morality consists in what is personally committed voluntarily and cannot consist in what is forced or caused.

I believe this is true up to a certain point in an individuals life. Scripture points to a time in each individuals life where God gives up on that individual...because of rebellion.

Rom. 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

When God gives one up, the individual has only Satan to deal with. I believe Scripture points to a time in an individuals life where he is spiritually controled by Satan. Look to all the examples given to us of individuals indwelled by demons. Their outward appearances and actions display an inner power that is greater than the original human strengths.

Just a thought...

In Christ
jeff

Brother Phillip wrote:

Then He is our Teacher of the Spirit of this Christ that is in us. The Holy Spirit will bring us to this conformity by teaching us who Christ is and how He Christ conforms us to Himself that we might be the son's of God.

How does the Holy Spirit "bring us to this conformity?"

In Christ
jeff

roaringlamb

Better yet, what if the man was dead in the water, and someone came and gave him life, and carried him back to shore!!

Then he couldn't even boast of the life given him let alone anyhting else.

Excellent point!

Tears_of_Joy:

Does not God give ability to everyone?

All who desire to repent can repent and receive forgiveness. Those who do not desire to repent cannot repent.

Jesse:

God doesn't save us BECAUSE of our freewill. But no man is saved AGAINST his freewill.

We are saved because God's grace, not because ourselves.

It's mans own freewill that keeps him back from coming to God to recieve the salvation that God offers to all men. We cannot boast of saving ourselves. But we must yeild our freewill to God in order to be saved.

The final decision respecting salvation is our own freewill. God is already willing to recieve us, and Christ died for us, but God will not force anyone to heaven. The final decision is ours:

God doesn't save us because of our freewill, but the final decision respecting salvation is our own freewill. Do you see how these two sentences contradict one another?

If the final decision rests in our own freewill then salvation is received because of our freewill, thus (in your view) God saves us because of our freewill.

We can be saved because Jesus Christ shed his blood as a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, thereby enabling God to forgive the sins of all men, upon conditions of repentance and faith.

Jesse, we must be careful of how we interpret the word 'World'. For example: John 1:10
[color=0000CC]"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."[/color]
Notice we have 'World' mentioned three times:
John Owen, the puritan theologian who wrote The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, said: "He that should force the same signification upon the world in that triple mention of it would be an egregious glosser: for in the first, it plainly signifieth some part of the habitable earth, and is taken subjectivè μερικῶς· in the second, the whole frame of heaven and earth, and is taken subjectivè ὁλικῶς· and, in the third, for some men living in the earth, — namely, unbelievers, who may be said to be the world adjunctivè"

It is also important to note that neither instance refers to "every single person who lives on Earth"

Also, in the above mentioned work, he writes: (It is long, but if you are interested in this discussion please take the time to read it)
"The ingrafted erroneous persuasion of the Jews, which for a while had a strong influence
upon the apostles themselves, restraining salvation and deliverance by the Messiah, or promised seed, to themselves alone, who were the offspring of Abraham according to the flesh, must be considered as the ground of many general expressions and enlargements of the objects of redemption; which yet, being so occasioned, give no colour of any unlimited universality. That the Jews were generally infected with this proud opinion, that all the promises belonged only to them and theirs, towards whom they had a universality, exclusive of all others, whom they called “dogs, uncircumcised,” and poured out curses on them, is most apparent. Hence, when they saw the multitudes of the Gentiles coming to the preaching of Paul, they were “filled with envy, contradicting, blaspheming, and raising up persecution against them,” Acts xiii. 45–50; which the apostle again relates of them, 1 Thess. ii. 15, 16. “They please not God,” saith he, “and are contrary to all men; forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved;” being not with any thing more enraged in the preaching of our Saviour than his prediction of letting out his vineyard to others.
That the apostles themselves, also, had deeply drunk in this opinion, learned by tradition from
their fathers, appeareth, not only in their questioning about the restoration of the kingdom unto Israel, Acts i. 6, but also most evidently in this, that after they had received commission to teach and baptize all nations, Matt. xxviii. 19, or every creature, Mark xvi. 15, and were endued with power from above so to do, according to promise, Acts i. 8; yet they seem to have understood their commission to have extended only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, for they went about and preached only to the Jews, chap. xi. 19: and when the contrary was evidenced and demonstrated to them, they glorified God, saying, “Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life,” verse 18; admiring at it, as a thing which before they were not acquainted with. And no wonder that men were not easily nor soon persuaded to this, it being the great mystery that was not made known in former ages, as it was then revealed to God’s holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit — namely, “That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel,” Eph. iii. 5, 6.
But now, this being so made known unto them by the Spirit, and that the time was come wherein
the little sister was to be considered, the prodigal brought home, and Japheth persuaded to dwell in the tents of Shem, they laboured by all means to root it out of the minds of their brethren according to the flesh, of whom they had a special care; — as also, to leave no scruple in the mind of the eunuch, that he was a dry tree; or of the Gentile, that he was cut off from the people of God. To which end they use divers general expressions, carrying a direct opposition to that former error, which was absolutely destructive to the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Hence are those terms of the world, all men, all nations, every creature, and the like, used in the business of redemption and preaching of the gospel; these things being not restrained, according as they supposed, to one certain
nation and family, but extended to the universality of God’s people scattered abroad in every region under heaven. Especially are these expressions used by John, who, living to see the first coming of the Lord, in that fearful judgment and vengeance which he executed upon the Jewish nation some forty years after his death, is very frequent in the asserting of the benefit of the world by Christ, in opposition, as I said before, to the Jewish nation, — giving us a rule how to understand such phrases and locutions: John xi. 51, 52, “He signified that Jesus should die for that nation; and not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad;” conformably whereunto he tells the believing Jews that Christ is not a propitiation
for them only, “but for the sins of the whole world,” 1 John ii. 2, or the people of God scattered throughout the whole world, not tied to any one nation, as they sometime vainly imagined. And this may and doth give much light into the sense and meaning of those places where the words
world and all are used in the business of redemption. They do not hold out a collective universality, but a general distribution into men of all sorts, in opposition to the before-recounted erroneous persuasion."

Brother Jesse...what do you think of this Scripture?

Acts 26

17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Paul's ministry was to turn people from darkness to light, from the "power of Satan to God."

What kind of power is this and how does this aspect influence the choices we make?

In Christ
Jeff

Better yet, what if the man was dead in the water, and someone came and gave him life, and carried him back to shore!!

Then he couldn't even boast of the life given him let alone anyhting else.

I believe this is not a proper analogy...

When one hears the voice of the Holy Spirit, when one obeys that voice, when one experiences the fruit of obeying that voice, one will then truly know that one cannot boast. Why will one not boast? Because he witnessed the power of God and saw the glory of His ways. This understanding then sheds light on how futile are our own ways.

We then understand it is not about self esteem but about esteeming Him.

In Christ
Jeff

When one hears the voice of the Holy Spirit,

You won't unless God gives ears to hear.

Also, God commands many things that man cannot do. For instance when Christ commanded the man with the crippled hand to stretch it out, I am sure many would have said, "how cruel of this man to tell him to do that, he cannot."

But God gave the command and the ability to do what was commanded. Imagine if that man had gotten up and said, "I healed myself by my own free will." Think of all the times this man tried to stretch out his hand in his own strength.

But to those to whom Christ is revealed, God will not only command that a man repent and believe the Gospel(which he cannot do apart from regeneration of the heart), but He will also give the ability to repent and believe. Thus salvation is 100% God, and if we have been justified, we can be assured of glory as those whom he called, he justified, and those whom he justified, he glorified.(see Romans 8:29,30)

God commands, God changes the heart to beleive and obey, God keeps that soul, and not one of the ones given to Christ shall be lost.

God commands, God changes the heart to beleive and obey, God keeps that soul, and not one of the ones given to Christ shall be lost.

What about Cain...

Gen. 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

God cared for Cain. God gave Cain ears to hear. God taught Cain. God exhorted Cain. God warned Cain.

God commanded Cain..."but you should rule over it."

How does this example given to us in Scripture speak to what you have stated?

In Christ
Jeff

You won't unless God gives ears to hear

God speaks to all men...

John 1: 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Ezek. 33:10 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: “Thus you say, ‘If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?” ’ 11 Say to them: “As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live...Turn, turn from you evil ways...

Does God require this without provision of grace?

In Christ
Jeff

rookie, there are many times in scripture where God tells someone not to do something, but they end up doing it anyway. No one is debating this. What we are discussing however is sovereign election verses freewill in regards to salvation...and in particular effectual calling.

For this discussion we need to focus on Romans 8:29-30

From A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures:
Lighteth every man (phōtizei panta anthrōpon). Old verb (from phōs) to give light as in Rev_22:5; Luk_11:35. The Quakers appeal to this phrase for their belief that to every man there is given an inner light that is a sufficient guide, the Quaker’s text it is called. But it may only mean that all the real light that men receive comes from Christ, not necessarily that each one receives a special revelation.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Brother you must also look at verse 5
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and [b]the darkness comprehended it not.[/b]

But then John goes on in Chapter 1
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[i](Now notice what is next and describes these who are spoken of here)[/i]

John 1:13 Which were [b]born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

The problem with man is that he is blind, deaf, paralyzed, and utterly unable to do anything good(by good I mean as God considers good) as Isaiah says, "all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Yet God requires righteousness to stand before Him, and no man apart from the work of God can have this. No man can re-birth himself(that is why the literal meaning of "born again" is born from above), no man re-create himself, no man can give himself a new heart.

Any flesh based attempt at spiritual things will only produce fleshly results, thus the spirit must do something. Jesus says quite clearly that it is the Spirit that gives life, and that the flesh profits nothing. Our flesh can no more produce new birth that it could produce our first birth, and though man can procreate and bring forth life, it is still flesh as we bring forth children in our image, and of our nature.

Brother Jay wrote:

What we are discussing however is sovereign election verses freewill in regards to salvation...and in particular effectual calling.

I believe the example given to us in Scripture of Cain and Abel are pertinent to this discussion of election verses freewill.

Just think about it, Adam and Eve have fallen... and now we are given the first two examples of man born into this fallen world. God gives us this example so that we might learn of His ways.

So we know from Scripture that Abel was a prophet of God and that Abel's works were righteous. I agree that man is blind, deaf, and unable to know God. So we see hear that it is God who reached out to Abel.

Likewise, we also see that God also called Cain. Cain like Abel according to Scripture had a relationship with God. God exhorted Cain to repent so that Cain's works would also please God. We know from Scripture, man according to his flesh, is unable to please God. Therefore for man to please God, God must first provide the grace to lift man to Him.

We know from this example that God, told Cain that he has the ability to rule over sin.

According to Scripture what provision does God give to man to enable him to overcome Satan?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Patrick wrote:

The problem with man is that he is blind, deaf, paralyzed, and utterly unable to do anything good(by good I mean as God considers good) as Isaiah says, "all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

According to Scripture, we know that no man is able to please God according to the flesh. Yet we also know that men throughtout the generations have pleased God. We know that Scriptures state that Abel's work were righteous. We know that Cain's works were wicked. So according to the nature of this discussion, how does man please God?

We often sight "all of our righteousness are as filty rags" as a proof for something it was not meant for. Have you ever read the section of Scripture where this verse is taken out of?

In Christ
Jeff

We know from this example that God, told Cain that he has the ability to rule over sin.

Simply because God commands something does not mean man can do it. That is why the moral law frustrates all who would be justified by it.

God's commands are to be obeyed, yet man in his natural state will not, nor does he want to obey them. However God does provide what is necessary for man's accpetance with Him, and also provides the means of apropriating this acceptance as well.

I don't remember if it was this thread or not, but look at the man with the withered hand. Christ tells him to stretch forth his hand. The point of course being that this man could not on his own do what Christ was commanding, yet christ gave him the ability to do it, and I highly doubt this man rejoiced in how because of his free will he healed himself.

Simply because God commands something does not mean man can do it.

Take the example of Lazarus who had been dead for many days. Jesus told him to "come out". Didn't Jesus know that this command was impossible for Lazarus to obey in his own power? But I thought God only commanded us to do things that we ourselves could do?

I have also heard that the only reason Jesus said "Lazarus, come out." was because if He had only said "Come out." every dead person within earshot would would have walked out of their tombs.

Simply because God commands something does not mean man can do it.

The examples you site to bring clarity to this thread are actually examples which speak to signs and wonders. In Scripture we find that God works signs and wonders to prove that He is. If one were to study the beginning of Christ's ministry, one would see that signs and wonders are part of God's way of teaching man that there is a spiritual world that exists beyond what man is able to see or understand.

However, we are discussing the influences or spiritual powers that shape and conform man into each man's destiny that was known before the foundations of this world.

In the example of Cain and Abel we are given the knowledge that God established a relationship, a personal relationship which each individual. Scripture testifies that the result of this relationship enabled Abel to please God. Scripture testifies that Cain on the otherhand did not please God according to what was expected of Cain by God. Scripture testifies that God explained this to Cain and exhorted him to perform what was expected of him by God. Scriptures testifies that God also taught Cain about the consequences of not obeying Him.

Then about 4000 years pass and Scripture testifies that Abel's works were righteous, and the Abel pleased God. Scripture teaches that Abel was a prophet of God.

Likewise, Scripture teaches that Cain's destiny is defined by his wicked works. We find that Cain's destiny was defined by his willingness to listen to his father's commands who is Satan.

We are given these two examples, first in past time, in their generation. Then Scripture testifies in present time where these two individuals stand outside of time. Abel's Father is God, Cain's father is Satan. This example is given to us so that we can see the outworkings of what God spoke to Satan at the fall of man.

Gen 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;..."

Do you see that this prophesy was established according to Scripture in the very first example of the narrative of the lives of Cain and Abel?

In Christ
Jeff

Genesis 3:15

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;

In this Scripture we find that God establishes that there are two fathers and two families. In this Scripture we find that there is a spiritual incompatibility between the offspring of Satan and the offspring of God. God declares that "enmity" will exists between the children of these two spriritually influenced families.

This prophesy speaks not only of a time where Christ is present on earth but also before His incarnation. We know this is true because Scripture gives us the narrative example in the first offspring of fallen man.

From the very beginning we see that God has established that man has been given the freedom to choose between the spirit of Satan and the Spirit of God. The narrative of Cain and Abel demonstrates that after the fall of man, man would now have access to both the knowledge of good and the knowledge of evil. This knowledge of good and evil is based not on the physical world but on the spiritual world.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Jesse wrote:

God is not so unreasonable, so cruel, and so unjust as to expect from man what man cannot offer, as to require man to do the impossible, and then condemn him to hell to eternally burn because he failed to do the impossible.

This is true, thankyou for you clarity of thought.

This is a perfect example of how Scripture is not open to private interpretation, but instead Scripture confirms itself.

When men's doctrines confuse the ways of God as it has in this thread, one can clearly see where the truth found in Scripture brings liberty from the teachings and traditions of men. When one hears and then as a Berean searches the Scripture to look for Scripture to confirm what is heard, then one will find the "truth" that truly sets one free from the captivity of Satan.

This path will always lead to the heart of Christ. There is no confusion; but peace comes to those who hear.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

As Tozer said, "What man ought, He can."

Firstly, these are Pelagius' words, and I would like to see this quote from Tozer before jumping to any conclusions.

Also, if Tozer really believed this, then I would say he did not understand the effects of sin upon man, and that he was teaching a lie that men can do whatever God commands.

If men could keep all that God commanded, why did Christ die?

You are attacking the central theme of Christianity by allowing for man to be righteous in and of himself, and you are now preaching a different Gospel than Paul's-
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, [b]how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;[/b]
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

roaringlamb wrote:

As Tozer said, "What man ought, He can."

Firstly, these are Pelagius' words,

Please, explain why we ar not able to fulfill these oughts:
3John 1:8 We therefore [b]ought[/b] to receive such, that we might be fellow helpers to the truth.
1John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we [b]ought[/b] also to love one another.
1John 3:16 By this perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we [b]ought[/b] to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1John 2:6 He that says he abides in him [b]ought[/b] himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons [b]ought[/b] you to be in all holy conduct and godliness,
James 4:15 For you [b]ought[/b] to say, If the Lord wills, we shall live, and do this, or that.
James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things [b]ought[/b] not so to be.

roaringlamb wrote:
If men could keep all that God commanded, why did Christ die?

roaringlamb wrote:
You are attacking the central theme of Christianity by allowing for man to be righteous in and of himself, and you are now preaching a different Gospel than Paul's-

The very act of repentance is turning away from sin and toward God, and in faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
[b]Acts 20:21[/b] [color=993300]Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.[/color]
If man has "total inability" to repent or have faith, then there would be no crime not repenting or not haveing faith.
If man can not repent with out God giving him the repentance, why would God send man to hell for somthing that He did not provide?
Same goes for faith, that you say is a gift.

That would be like a teacher punishing his student for not passing a test with out teaching(giving ability to pass) it first.

Fuerthermore, we do not denie the death burial & reserection of Christ.
We claim that Christ did the above for rebles, not invalides.

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Bro Logic you said:

If man has "total inability" to repent or have faith, then there would be no crime not repenting or not haveing faith.

If man can not repent with out God giving him the repentance, why would God send man to hell for somthing that He did not provide?

from romans 9

[b]14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/b][i][b]16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/b][/i][b]17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/b][u][i][b]19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/b][/i][/u]

well it would seem scripture refutes the idea that there would be no crime for not repenting in the underlined verse. the chapter continues:

[b]21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [/b]

in the end, it all rests on God.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

IRONMAN wrote:
greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Bro Logic you said:

If man has "total inability" to repent or have faith, then there would be no crime not repenting or not haveing faith.

If man can not repent with out God giving him the repentance, why would God send man to hell for somthing that He did not provide?

from romans 9

[b]14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/b][i][b]16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/b][/i][b]17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/b][u][i][b]19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/b][/i][/u]

well it would seem scripture refutes the idea that there would be no crime for not repenting in the underlined verse. the chapter continues:
in the end, it all rests on God.

God could have shown His power in Pharaoh even if Pharaoh repented. Pharaoh only chose to do it the hard way.

3John 1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellow helpers to the truth.
1John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1John 3:16 By this perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1John 2:6 He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conduct and godliness,
James 4:15 For you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we shall live, and do this, or that.
James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Not one of these verses is written to unsaved people though, they are written to those who were already saved.

The Pelagius comment was in response to what Augustine said, which was, "command what thou wilt, and give what thou commandest."

In other words, Augustine was saying, "Lord give me the ability to live what you command me to live." While Pelagius was saying, "man can in and of himself live what God commands, without any help from God."

If man has "total inability" to repent or have faith, then there would be no crime not repenting or not haveing faith.
If man can not repent with out God giving him the repentance, why would God send man to hell for somthing that He did not provide?

Your first argument is like saying that since men cannot keep the Ten Commandments, it is unfair of God to expect that of man.

In answer to your second point, man will go to hell because he is a sinner, and again you are still operating under the assumption that God owes salvation to all men, and therefore He must provide salvation to all.

So I ask you in response, if Christ died for all men and their sins, why are any lost? Is not unbelief sin, so why is this not forgiven?

Why don't men keep the moral law, is it because they will not or cannot, or both? And then also, if the keeping of the moral law is the means of righteousness, isn't Christ's death then of no importance as man can meet God's requirements apart from any aid from God?

The idol of man's free will, and righteousness by his own work is just that, an idol. It can be polished and looked at from every angle you wish, but it remains an idol. I do not suppose you would ever go to pray and say, "I am so thankful for this glorious will I have. For it has set me apart from others. For because of my will, I tithe, I fast, I am more spiriutal than others, all because I will to be so."

Sounds much like this man-
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

But watch who Christ says goes away justified-
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

See it was the one who appealed to God's mercy, not the one who boasted of his righteousness.

Pharaoh hardend his own heart first

Brother I have shown this to you before I think, but here it is again-
Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
Exo 7:3 And [b]I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.[/b]

Now why is this important? Because of what you are trying to say. Notice this is the first mention of Pharaoh hardening his heart-
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Now we all know that 7 comes before 8, thus you are faced with a difficulty trying to reconcile your view with what Scripture plainly says.

In Romans chpt 9 through 11 Paul is explaining "why" He has allowed the "blindness in part" and so forth concerning the JEWS.

Annie, unity at the expense of poor hermenuetics is not true unity. You know I am not seeking to divide anyone, but I must point out the obvious.

Notice what Paul says at the end of this portion
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on [b]the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

The "us" is the Church at Rome is it not?
What does Paul say about them?
Why does he include that the called who are the vessels of mercy, and the us are not Jews only, but also Gentiles?

I think it would do everyone a world of wonder to read, "The Justification of God" by John Piper. It is an exegetical look at Romans 9, and even those who disagree with predestination say the facts brought forht cannot be argued against.

Warning, it is not an easy read, but it is well worht it.

GrannieAnnie,

Assuming for the sake of argument that Romans 9 only applies to the Jewish nation, doesn't the verse and God's decrree within it also automatically apply to and affect individual Jews? So that the hardening of the Jewish nation is hardening of the Jewish people, including those born today who had nothing to do with the events of Jesus's death? After all, a nation doesn't get hardened but people within a nation do.

I just want to make a comment to make an alternate viewpoint known.

On Romans 9, I believe Paul is talking about [u]people groups[/u] and [u]not individuals[/u]. Paul is explaining how God is free to choose the conditions of salvation and to extend them to whoever He wishes, either Jew or Gentile. This is a commonly held Armenian view, with much evidence to support it. I'll leave the reader to search and read about it.

Also, concerning Roman's 8:28-29, I believe it is only half of the story, God's side. God is eternally true and will faithfully fulfill His side of salvation. We still have our side though.

God says:
"I will give you a new heart."
And He says:
"Get yourself a new heart."

To only look at one and not the other is to not look at the Bible as a whole and is taking verses out of context.

-Nile

God says:
"I will give you a new heart."
And He says:
"Get yourself a new heart."

But how does a man come to realize he is in need of a new heart? Left on his own, man would go on in sin, and never give a thought to the true God.

Consider that even we who have a knowledge of God can have views that are askew from the true God and will be made crystal clear on that day when we behold Him. If we are capable of this, imagine the idol factory that is in natural man, and the lengths he will go to as he erects a god after his own image.

Again, unless God intervenes, man would have no clue as to what he needed to be justified before His Maker, and would go on in a set of works he thought would give him peace with the Creator.

roaringlamb wrote:

If man has "total inability" to repent or have faith, then there would be no crime not repenting or not haveing faith.
If man can not repent with out God giving him the repentance, why would God send man to hell for somthing that He did not provide?

Your first argument is like saying that since men cannot keep the Ten Commandments, it is unfair of God to expect that of man.

roaringlamb wrote:
In answer to your second point, man will go to hell because he is a sinner, and again you are still operating under the assumption that God owes salvation to all men, and therefore He must provide salvation to all.

roaringlamb wrote:
So I ask you in response, if Christ died for all men and their sins, why are any lost?

roaringlamb wrote:
Is not unbelief sin, so why is this not forgiven?

If my new born can not mow the lawn, should I expect him to mow it?

If it was a required for him to live, and you were comapssionate towards him, would you not intervene, and do what he could not? And then in the wonders of your grace attribute it to him as if he had done it so that he could be in relationship to you and have life.

God's Love compells Him to save, for that is what His name means.
Jesus = savior; deliverer

Of this we agree :-)

Because God will never infring on free will.
His death does not save.

Firstly, I agree that God will not infringe upon free will, because man does not have free will. His will is completely set upon the desires of his heart which is sin. But God in His grace by His Spirit changes the heart without any assistance of man, and then man believes what he once thought was foolishness.

For the second part, His death and resurrection must be united in salvation. He died for our transgressions, someone had to pay the price for all of our sin, but He rose for our justification as a proof of the acceptance of the sacrifice.
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 [b]Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.[/b]

roaringlamb wrote:

If my new born can not mow the lawn, should I expect him to mow it?

If it was a required for him to live, and you were comapssionate towards him, would you not intervene, and do what he could not? And then in the wonders of your grace attribute it to him as if he had done it so that he could be in relationship to you and have life.

roaringlamb wrote:
Firstly, I agree that God will not infringe upon free will, because man does not have free will.

roaringlamb wrote:
But God in His grace by His Spirit changes the heart without any assistance of man,

Did you care about "him" ?

In answer to your question, unfortunatley no, and I regret that, and ask for forgiveness.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Annie, I would like to discuss this, as this verse is always brought up to validate a universal atonement, or salvation for all.

In verse 9, Peter says that the Lord is longsuffering to us-ward, or toward us. So we must ask, who is the "us" in this verse?

In 3:1, Peter says," This second epistle, [b]beloved[/b], I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

And here is the greeting which sets forth to whom he is writing
2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, [b]to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:[/b]

The beloved are Christians as far as I can tell, and note the pronouns used, "you" "your" again relating to the beloved he is addressing.

Then in verse 8, Peter says, " But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Notice his use of the word "beloved" again, so we can say that he is still adressing the same group of Christians.

His point has been to strenghten them against what the scoffers of verse 3 were saying. Now when he gets to verse 9 does he suddenly change whom he is addressing, and then apply this as a text for all men to be saved?

Now also, notice the two gruops identified in this passage-
- "they" refers to the scoffers
- "you", "beloved" refers to the believers

Does the "you" change from the believers to the "they" at any time, and doesn't the "all" point to the "you"?

Interested to see your thoughts on this.

His Elect that are not yet within the Ark.

This is the greatest motivation in preaching the Gospel, that we have brethren that are not born yet. But God will save them!

Sister, I think if you look at my name, you'll understand as I have, that I am too often like a lion, and not enough like a lamb. But I used to be so caught up in the bondage of Finneylike theology, that when I heard that Christ had set me free, when the glorious news of Christ's righteousness imputed to me, a sinner, I determined that when it popped up, I should at least present the other side, and also put up questions that will make folks think and read their Bibles rather than be sucked into endless misery.

Could you post Scripture to back this up please?

Brother Nile wrote:

On Romans 9, I believe Paul is talking about people groups and not individuals.

This precept brings to mind another Scripture...

Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.

Just like the wickedness of the generations that precede Jesus's incarnation, so it was to be for the Amorites after Abraham. In both examples, it was the rebellion of the people that solidified their destiny. This rebellion solidifies one's heart.

And what does Scripture say to how God hardens one's heart?

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

When Scripture states that God gave them over...this means that there is no longer given the knowledge of good to those who refuse God's calling. The result is that these have had the conscience seared...

In Christ
Jeff

John 14:21

He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

What does "My commandments" mean to you? By what means are these commandments given to man?

In Christ
Jeff

I belive my post a page back has some relevence, I will repost in hope of a reply.

roaringlamb wrote:

If my new born can not mow the lawn, should I expect him to mow it?

If it was a required for him to live, and you were comapssionate towards him, would you not intervene, and do what he could not? And then in the wonders of your grace attribute it to him as if he had done it so that he could be in relationship to you and have life.

roaringlamb wrote:
Firstly, I agree that God will not infringe upon free will, because man does not have free will.

roaringlamb wrote:
But God in His grace by His Spirit changes the heart without any assistance of man,

Concerning 1 John 2:2:
From [url=http://thereformedbaptistthinker.blogspot.com/2007/07/for-whom-did-christ-die-iiic-e.html]Reformed Baptist Thinker[/url]

The Apostle John wrote the following about Jesus’ atonement: “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” Of this passage, Norman Geisler observes, “[O]ne need only consult the generic (general, unlimited) usage of kosmos in John’s writings to confirm that he speaks of the fallen, sinful world. . . . It goes far beyond the strain of one’s credulity to somehow conclude that kosmos in 1 John 2 refers only to the elect.”[3]

Unfortunately, Geisler is being overly simplistic in his analysis. John uses kosmos or “world” in various ways. Determining its meaning depends on establishing the context surrounding its use.

Should “world” be taken as all of humanity in 1 John 2:2? Ernest C. Reisinger and D. Matthew Allen respond, “Notice first off that Jesus ‘is’ the propitiation for our sins (not that he merely makes propitiation possible). Did Christ accomplish propitiation for everyone who ever lived? . . . Hence, this little word ‘is’ alone refutes the general redemption theory.”[4]

Moreover, interpreters should recognize the parallel between this verse and John 11:51-52. In this passage, John wrote, “He [Caiaphas] did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.” Comparing the two texts reveals a striking resemblance.

John 11:51-52 first then 1 John 2:2
Jesus - He
would die - is the propitiation
for the nation, - for our sins,
and not for the nation only, - and not for ours only
but also - but also
to gather into one - for
the children of God who are scattered abroad. - the sins of the whole world.

Since the Apostle Paul refers to John as an apostle to the Jews (Gal 2:9), it makes sense that in writing to a Jewish audience he would emphasize the universal scope of salvation as extending to all peoples and nations in the world. First John 2:2 in no way contradicts limited atonement.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved. AMEN.

Sis Annie

I will tell you why, but please, for "Jesus's sake" please don't let this split our union, one with another.

if we are (and indeed we are) united in Christ, what can separate us?

Romans has to be read in context.

The context of all scripture is Eternal as is the Author of it who is Unchanging from Everlasting to Everlasting. AMEN. If Jacob and Esau were Elected as described, are we not also Elected in the same way if God changes not?Romans 9 vs 24 says that not only the Jews are called but even Gentiles. After wrestling with Romans 9 i saw the Mercy of God in a way which leaves me in awe.i am called to be a vessel of mercy.

In Romans chpt 9 through 11 Paul is explaining "why" He has allowed the "blindness in part" and so forth concerning the JEWS.

yes, the blindness came in part to the Jews so that the called among the gentiles may be brought in.

One can never pull verses from these three chapters. They must be read as one discourse.

but dear sister if we can say this about this particular discourse, should we not also say the same about all scripture? the way i see it (and i may be wrong) is that our Election was decided on my God before the setting of the foundation of the earth just as it was for Jacob and Esau because Election belongs to Him. Everywhere in Paul's writings we see this theme recurring that we have been chosen, not that we chose first but we chose Him because He had long before chosen us.

i fear perhaps we are failing to grasp God's Prerogative in all this. or perhaps i am deluded...if i am wrong dear sister i pray that God would not allow a breaking of fellowship.i pray that He extend Grace to you to intercede for me as i would be in sore need of prayer and fasting to loose these bonds. i am thoroughly convinced of these things and if they are bonds i would be in thorough need of someone thoroughly fasting and praying for me.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Ro 5:8 - while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us
It doesn't say, "while we were yet victims, Christ died for us" but while we were sinners!

That is true, but who is the "us"? It is not all the world, and it does not imply anything of the sort. Nor does it say we can obey what God commands, simply that while "we" (those who are now Christians, that is who Romans is written to)were sinners, Christ died for "us"(Christians).

It is similar to what Paul say here-
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on [b]him that justifieth the ungodly,[/b] his faith is counted for righteousness.

And here-
Rom 5:6 For [b]when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.[/b]

The point being that we could not live up to the standard set by God. If man has some inherent righteousness, why would Christ die for the ungodly, and if man could justify himself by his keeping of God's commands, why would it say while we were without strength, or as the Greek word implies, impotent and unable, Christ died for us.

Pay close attention to the adjectives Paul uses to describe those who were now believers.
"without strength" v.6
"sinners" v.8
"enemies" v.10

Now though pay attention to the words used as to when this "justification" happened.
"when we were yet without strength" v.6
"while we were yet sinners" v.8
"when we were enemies" v.10

All the pro-nouns speak of the Christians Paul is writing to, so this does not really apply to unsaved people, but rather those who have been brought into the Family of God.

Mt 22:37 - Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

And the point of this is that no natural man can do this, as his heart is set on sin, and he seeks to serve his father the devil. Man is not neutral in his affiliation, it is as Christ said, "he that is not with me is against me."

So how can a man love the one he is an enemy of unless there is a change of nature? How can thte heart set on sin be changed? Can the leopard change his spots, or the Ethiopian his skin? Can a man change his own heart?

1Co 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

But again Jesse, who is this verse written to? Christians, not unbelievers thus Paul follows with this verse-
1Co 10:14 Wherefore, [b]my dearly beloved,[/b] flee from idolatry.

Much confusion arises when we use texts that are written to those that are already Christians, and apply them to the unsaved, or the world.

The majority of what is in the Epistles is instruction to the Congregations of Saints, and is not addressed to the unsaved.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

bro Logic

Pharaoh hardend his own heart first with God'd power being show to him and he still refused to repent, therefore, God hardednd Pharaoh's heart.

Paul says that God told Moses that He has Mercy on whom He will have Mercy so this is not about Pharoah hardening his heart by himself but God not showing Mercy to Pharoah for the Purpose of Showing His Power. it was God who raised Pharoah but in the first place. Pharoah refusing to let Israel go was because God had hardened pharoah's heart to give God occasion to display His Power to Save. Just like Esau was not rejected because he sold his birthright, but according to Romans 9 God chose Jacob [i][b]before[/b][/i] the boys were born so [i][b]His[/b][/i] Election would stand. Esau sold his birthright because God had rejected him from before he was born. God doesn't make contingencies...we move according to what He has determined for His own good pleasure. God didn't say when pharoah refused to let Israel go, "oh snap, let me harden his heart...didn't see that coming."

Now we can leave Romans 9 out and say that man is saved because he chooses God. however there are other sections in Paul's writing where he makes mention of this calling to Salvation being dependant on God. Even John 3:16 clearly (to me anyway) shows that Salvation is a thing initiated by God to which man responds as GOd has given Grace. John 6:65 says no man can come to the SOn except the Father draws him...the word even says that we know God Loved us because Christ died for us while we were sinners. if we could Love God while we are sinners there would have been no need for Christ to die. It seems that the ability to choose God onour part is a function of the Sacrifice of Christ on the cross while we were sinners and without which we had no hope of Salvation.

of course none of this is logical as far as we are concerned...no pun intended i guess...Truly the Ways of God are above our own reasonings.Oh indeed the depth of the Knowledge and Wisdom of God, [i][b]WHO[/b][/i] has been His counselor?

man does have a role to play and has his own will, his will however is wraped up in the Sovereign Will of God. i'm cool with that but perhaps that chaps us a little...perhaps because we don't like the idea of not being in control or that we are not quite as in control as we would like to be. i am willing to consider that i am completely wrong and so would be in much need of prayer and correction. i wonder if you have considerd that maybe you are wrong?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved. AMEN.

bro Nile
When Paul wrote in Romans 9 about the Electionof Jacob he spoke specifically of the issue of the children not yet being born which seems (to me anyway) to imply the individual boys. Now of course what happened there did affect the ones descended from them. People groups are made up of individuals so the Election of people groups is according to the Election of certains ones in that group according to God HImself. Abraham was promised many descendants which would be more than the stars in the sky...these descendants would be given him of God because God promised him a son with Sarah. Paul also says that not all the children are those of the promise, Abraham had other children beside Ishmael and Isaac and so that to me seems like a forshadowing of the Election to Salvation through Christ. God had chosen Isaac to be the child of the promise before he ws born.

Also, concerning Roman's 8:28-29, I believe it is only half of the story, God's side. God is eternally true and will faithfully fulfill His side of salvation. We still have our side though.

oh indeed bro, indeed! if we know God to be Faithful completely in upholding His end of the bargain, and we know our own unfaithfulness, can we trust ourselves to hold up our end of the bargain apart from Him? perhaps some think so, i humbly don't. i boast however in God's Mercy on me, in that while i was yet a sinner, He called me to Himself. i boast in God that from before the setting of the foundations of the world i was Called and Chosen by Him unto Salvation. i boast that except God had extended Grace to me i would be finished and that because He did extend Grace to me, i am Saved!

oh i boast in Him alright!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Greetings once again in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved. AMEN.

sis annie, i went to the first link and in the opening statement which reads:

[b]As we look at Predestination vs. Foreknowledge, we are looking at diametrically different views of Scripture. We might say this is a watershed issue. [/b]

the premise is wrong from jump. it's not a matter of predestination [u][i][b]VS/OR[/b][/i][/u] foreknowledge, it in fact is both. The two are not diametrically opposed at all as suggested here. They seem that way only because we look at them through our own understanding. the 2 are 1 and although to most it appears they are opposing, the testimony of scripture is not that it is one or the other, but rather both. The 2 are 1 in that they work together for the Purpose, that being the Glory of GOd forever and ever through the display of His Manifold Wisdom to the princes of the air through the Church.

sis annie i realize i may have been unclear about this and i ask your forgiveness if i have caused you to stumble. i have been called a Calvanist before, and i'm not, i don't really even know what Calvanism is... :-? to me it is plain, it all rests on God and yet we have a responsibility to Him...to fulfil it, we need His Hand to Move.

I think it would be better if all of y'all who agree should stay on one thread each, then everyone's agreeing and no dander getting raised.

:-P sis like the guy who wrote the second piece you put up, we have to have a balance, the truth is not either or, but both.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.