Wars and Rumors of Wars continued...

The U.S. has spent billions of dollars building military installations in remote parts of Iraq...

I read this article this morning...

REPORT: IRAQ PULLOUT
ALREADY DRAFTED
by Joe Duarte, M.D.
Joe-Duarte.com & IntelligentForecasts.com
July 11, 2007

Decision Time

One Republican strategist is telling President Bush to stay the course in Iraq, and not to look for an exit compromise in Iraq. But one external source with a knack for sensational revelations says that the pullout from Iraq is all but a done deal.

But before we get to the meat of this story, it's important to get on the same page.

A great deal of activity is under way with regard to the U.S. role in the war in Iraq. The situation in the country is deteriorating, as sectarian violence, combined with the presence of international militants threatens to plunge the country into disorder.

And making matters worse, there have been reports of 140,000 Turkish troops having been amassed on Iraq's northern border, aiming to attack a Kurdish rebel group that has threatened the Turkish government.

So what's going on? Let's get up to date.

The New York Times, over the weekend, reported that an intense battle over the U.S. and its future in Iraq was ongoing at the White House. The White House denied the reports on Monday.

Republican strategist Bill Krystol, wrote an op-ed piece in response to the Times article on Monday, encouraging the White House to stay the course, and not to back down or make any deals now.

Several key Republicans have withdrawn their support for the war.

And the Iraqi government is warning that a civil war will ensue if the U.S. pulls out.

Ready Since April

The White House says it's not making any changes to its Iraq strategy. But Debka.com reports that a U.S. plan for a withdrawal from Iraq has been on President Bush's desk since April 2007.

According to Debka: "built around the phased pull-back by early 2008 of a little more than half of the 170,000 or so troops there at present. Around 50-70,000 soldiers are to be redeployed to large strategic fortified enclaves in the south and the north as a semi-permanent US presence. They will be backed by four naval and aerial strike groups in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea and a chain of giant air bases, some expanded, others built from scratch, in Oman, Qatar and Jordan."

In fact, Debka adds that the plan is so well known in the inner circles of several key U.S. ally governments in the Middle East, that the only question left is when the U.S. will pull the trigger, and what Iran and Syria will do in response.

Debka gives further details, noting that the strategy will start to revolve around taking the battles out of the cities and into open spaces, and that the U.K.'s strategy in southern Iraq, has been used as a model. British troops have "shut themselves away in a well-fortified compound south of the oil city. It is blasted daily by mortars and other heavy weapons. From time to time, British commando patrols emerge to hit enemy assault concentrations."

More interesting are these details from Debka, citing U.S. sources:

"1. Whether to launch a military operation to destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities and cripple its strategic-economic infrastructure.

"2. How to respond if Iran decides on a pre-emptive attack on US Middle East interests by fomenting local assaults against Israel by Syria, Hizballah and Hamas and a civil war in Lebanon. Some Middle East military and intelligence sources say this decision is already in the bag in Tehran. Will President Bush seek to avert these flare-ups of violence? Or use them as the starting shot for his military strike against Iran?"

"3. The timeline for beginning the US military pullout from Iraq, the third decision in abeyance, hinges heavily on the White House’s actions regarding the first two."

"4. The optional exit dates for now are September 2000 or January-March 2008. The latter is seen as the more realistic by American commanders and soldiers serving in Iraq."

A Region Under Tension

According to Debka, Iran is so certain that a U.S. attack is coming that it has begun to ration gasoline, while Syria is telling its citizens to leave Lebanon.

Meanwhile "Israel, Syria and Hizballah have prepared their armies for a war contingency entailing a possible clash on Golan and the Lebanese-Israeli frontier regions."

Conclusion

It is clear that the situation in the Middle East is coming to a boil, as Iran, Syria, the U.S. and Israel have run out of room to maneuver.

The presence of Al-Qaeda in the region has clearly complicated matters to a point where all sides are now ready to defend their own territories from real or perceived threats.

What is most interesting, and perhaps predictable, is the lack of analysis of the situation by the U.S. mainstream media, where the sensational is still the headline, rather than substance.

Nothing may come of what Debka is reporting. But it is believable. And it is should be frightening.

Perhaps the most troubling aspect of the story, is the conclusion: "Two months ago, military high commands in the Middle East stopped asking when the American army would leave Iraq. They took for granted that a major pull-back is in the works and not far away. The question exercising most minds these days is which of the two leading antagonists in the current regional contest will be first to assemble all the pieces of the war puzzle and gain the advantage over his rival, the Bush administration in Washington or Ali Khamenei’s mullahs in Tehran?"

end of article...

In Christ
Jeff

The problem with a nuclear Iran is exactly that -- Iran would have nuclear missiles immediately pointed at Israel. It is well within Israel's interest to safeguard their nation from Iranian nuclear capabilities. However, a preemptive strategic nuclear strike on Iran by Israel would probably send the world into economic and political turmoil.

One possible scenario would be a full scale invasion of Israel by nearly every surrounding power. A second scenario would be a "do nothing" strategy by the surrounding Muslim nations -- with diplomatic pressure used to immediately "punish" Israel.

It is certainly a frightening scenario.

As for the war in Iraq and a possible pullout date: I want to point out that the United States WON the war in Iraq. What do I mean? The US accomplished its mission of overthrowing the Hussein regime and installing a new government. The problem is not how to conduct a WAR -- but how to maintain the PEACE. The US only wants to remain as long as is necessary to prevent extremists from seizing power. As soon as Iraq can become self-sustaining, the US and UK (amongst other allies) will leave.

:-)

I'm not going to get into a heated debate about this, just going to drop in my two cents and we can agree to disagree.

And what's wrong with that? Israel has nukes pointed at everyone else. Fair's fair.

The difference is that Iran is run by a fanatical madman who is trying to bring on "the 12th Imam" and his main goal is to destroy Israel. Israel has the nukes for her own protection, not to destroy a people just for being who they are. Israel also has a great amount of restraint. Personally, if I ran Israel, the rest of the middle east would be flat and without inhabitants~forgive my fleshly passions there.

Lord, help me.

GrannieAnnie are you aware of this from threeworldwars.com

"Occult Numerology is the study of the occult meanings of numbers and their influence on human life. The study focuses on key numbers, and all names, events, dates, etc can be reduced to patterns of key numbers. The most venerated occult numbers are: 6, 11, 13, and multiples thereof, especially 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77 and 26, 39, etc. A triplication of numbers is also considered sacred (possibly even more sacred) to the occultist: 111, 222, 333, etc. Very often, triplicated numbers are hidden as other numbers. The best known example is 666 which is often hidden as 18, which is simply 6+6+6 or 3x6."

Corey_H...

The problem with Iranian nuclear missiles aimed at Israel is due to the unstable religious extremism within the Iranian government. Their president, Ayatollah and religious leaders regularly "preach" rhetoric that is (if believed) displays extreme mental instability and totalitarian territorial hatred.

And, no offense, I believe that your take on the Iraqi conflict is completely inaccurate. Regardless of your beliefs (political, spiritual, or social) in this issue, there is no need to publicly [u]slander[/u] the name of the US President ("President Bush," "George" -- not "Dubya"). Nor should we publicly state his motives when we have never met with him. Secondhand sources are often prejudicial and WRONG -- particularly since history will not be 20/20 until after the Administration leaves office (and members of the Administration [pro and con] write memoirs). Such rhetoric is certainly not reflective of our call as true believers. It is a fine thing to share an opposing opinion -- as long as it is done in decency, respect and without preconceived prejudice.

Ironically, I feel that the "oil conspiracy" groups (in regards to the current conflict in Iraq) don't fully understand just how little oil in Iraq ever makes it to the United States (just about NOTHING). In fact, if the massive amount of Iraqi oil was released to the United States and other Western nations, the price of oil would drop dramatically (including the profits of US oil companies).

I know that this thread was not meant to talk about the conflict in Iraq -- but the possibility of disaster in the region. I merely wanted to remind individuals that the "war" itself ended in 2004. Since then, we have been attempting to "keep the peace" (according to the United Nation's definition of "peacekeeping"). As this conflict has demonstrated, it is far more difficult "[i]keeping the peace[/i]" than "[i]winning a war[/i]."

We do need to continue praying for the region -- and to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

:-)

Brothers and Sisters,

Why don’t we look at God’s Word.

2 Chron. 32:8
With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the Lord our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah.

Jeremiah 17:5-8
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. [6] For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. [7] Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. [8] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

You are either cursed or blessed, you either trust in man or you trust in the Lord; if you trust in man and his weapons then you are cursed, if your trust is in the Lord then you are blessed. There are no in-betweens.
It is time to realize that Israel cannot protect themselves from their enemies; only the Lord can do so, which has been proved throughout history.
America is not the Savior of Israel or the world and it is about time many figured it out, for their salvation depends on it; or will you put your trust in Babylon?

Is this not perfectly clear?
“Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.”

When you trust in man and the arm of the flesh your heart departs from the Lord, what good are your nukes then? Your trust in them will send you to Hell.

Would this not be better?

“but with us is the Lord our God to help us, and to fight our battles.”

Proverbs 29:25
The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Hi Corey_H...

I really think that you need to perform just a bit more research about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. My graduate research (both my completed Master's Thesis and current dissertation research) have dealt with Policy, particularly in Middle Eastern relations. The present conflict has little to do with the breakup of the failed Ottoman Empire. The central cause of turmoil is the West's support and recognition of the state of Israel.

There has [u]NEVER[/u] been a "nation" of "Palestine." Rather, there was a region known as "Palestine" under the protection of the various controlling empires (the last being the British Mandate of Palestine that encompassed present day Jordan, Israel and parts of Syria, Lebanon and Iraq). The western part of this region consisted mostly of Arab Muslims, along with quite a few Jews and some various other races/religions. Following the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Western leaders decided that a permanent Jewish homeland would be established within the original boundaries of historic, pre-diaspora Israel (which already housed a great many Jews).

Much of the propaganda about individuals being "torn from their homes" is simply untrue. The region was partitioned as both Jewish and Palestinian homelands by more than a two-thirds majority vote of the United Nations in 1947. The partition would give nearly equal land to both sides (Arab and Jew), with the Palestinians receiving most of the better lands (the bulk of the Jewish land would be in the desert south). Israel would become the "international" capital of both Israel and Palestine. While the Jews (and the rest of the world) accepted the proposed partition, the Arab nations rejected it. With the public criticism of the Arab Higher Committee, local Arabs took part in riots that burned much of the local infrastructure of the future Israeli partition. Conflicts continued between local Jews and Arabs which escalated greatly upon the official establishment of the Jewish state.

A day following the preannounced establishment of the state of Israel, EVERY BORDERING ARAB NATION declared war. Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Trans-Jordan, and several radical military groups attacked the new nation. Ironically, many Palestinian Arabs tried to escape the hostilities into Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon -- but were DENIED ENTRANCE.

As war raged on, the Israelis eventually immerged victorious. All of the invading Arab nations agreed to a truce that recognized a new partition of the region -- giving the victorious state of Israel even more land. All of the surrounding Muslim nations agreed in the truce to eliminate any partitian known as "Palestine." Following the truce, the lands that would have become "Palestine" (according to the 1947 UN partitian) were then occupied by Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Syria. When the Six Day War broke out in 1967, most of those lands were lost when Israel defeated the surrounding Muslim nations.

While I still have compassion for the Palestinians, I do believe that much of their "suffering" is self-caused. Despite much of the propaganda about "Zionist oppression," Palestinians have been treated well in Israel. In fact, 20% of the population of Israel is Arab (mostly Palestinian Arabs). They maintain all of the rights of Jewish citizens. In addition, the government of Israel does not impose any sort of restrictions on non-violent forms of religion.

Regardless of how you feel about Western support for the nation of Israel, it is clear that the nation of Israel is the best example of a working democracy in the region. It was strategically important to the United States and the West during the bipolar years of the Cold War, when the Soviet Empire was attempting to exert influence upon the Persian Gulf region. We must remember that America does not support Israel because we are "controlled by Zionists," or because we are pro-Israel (in a Biblical sense). The United States supports Israel because Israel, as a democracy, supports the United States.

My belief that your assessment concerning the Iraqi situation has nothing to do with my citizenship (American) or my state of residence (Texas). I simply disagree with the conspiracy theorists out there who try to argue (without any credible fact other than presumption and slander) that this conflict was fought over oil. The oil that [u]you[/u] use (directly or indirectly) on a daily basis comes from the Middle East. It is in the economic best interest of the United States for peace in the region. The United States does NOT own any of the oil fields in Iraq. The United States does NOT have control of Iraqi oil supply. As with nearly all oil companies in the world, petroleum companies buy or drill oil and then distribute it in their respective nations. If we are buying oil from the Iraqi fields, then it can only benefit the nation of Iraq. I hate to tell you this, Corey, but the argument that this war was waged over oil is, well, downright silly. Only the most extreme conspiracy websites try to wage such a silly argument. Even the most liberal Democrats have abandoned such rhetoric for fear of political embarrassment.

As a student of domestic and foreign policy, it is clear that less than ideal alterior motives could never truly propel this nation into war. The three "reasons" that you feel led to the war (1. Oil, 2. Revenge, and 3. Oil) just cannot hold up under the watchful eye of even liberal academics.

Why then DID the United States go to war with Iraq?

1. The CIA, Pentagon, and intelligence agencies from the international community (along with Saddam Hussein's own claims) all pointed to the Iraqi regime's desire to obtain/create/distribute WMDs.

2. Saddam Hussein continually defied (throughout the Clinton Administration) his own terms of surrender following the first Gulf War in the early 1990s. It even looked like he was hiding something -- which led to three seperate instances where President Clinton bombed Iraq during the 1990s.

3. Saddam Hussein ordered an assassination attempt on former President Bush in 1993. This itself, according to International Law, is an ACT OF WAR. It led to President Clinton's signing of the Iraqi Liberation Act in 1998, a statement of US policy calling for a militarily forced regime change in Iraq.

4. Intelligence reports have proven that Saddam Hussein had arranged meetings with ranking members of Al Quaeda in 2001. While later intelligence (following the end of the ground war in 2003) revealed that there was mutual distrust between Saddam and Al Quaeda leaders, the fact that they actually met and negotiated showed that the possibility remained intact of high terrorism against the United States.

Again, I want to point out that the situation in Iraq is obviously bleak. As I stated before, the actual "war" ended just before the infamous carrier landing by President Bush in 2003. However, the difficulty has been from keeping the peace. More lives have been lost the attempt to "keep the peace" than in "winning the war." While every human life (Arab, Jew or Christian) is important, the goal of the Administration is to establish a lasting free democracy in the region. Whether or not the Iraqis want such a democracy remains to be seen.

Where is God in all of this? As believers, we realize that the pieces are being set into place. I know one thing -- I am certainly praying for the peace of Jerusalem.

:-)

BTW, I suppose that it seemed like you were using the name "Dubya" in a disrespectful manner. Many individuals on the left use the name as a pseudo-slur (as they have slurred and slandered other Administration figures like Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft and even Condi Rice). I apologize for misjudging your intentions and for not giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sure of this too: We should certainly pray for the President. There is a great amount of powerful responsibility that falls upon his shoulders. Along with that responsibility comes struggles with pride and slander. President Bush claims to know our Lord. We can only pray that the President will know Him as much as we so desire!

Annie and Corey, and others as it applies ...

Take a long hard look at what you are doing here. This is not a place for political wrangling, conspiracy and editorial.

Annie specifically, stop posting these links.

Take special note of the spirit and manner that permeates all this, haughtiness, pride, the ease of slight and slander ...

Food for thought and contemplation;

[i]The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government.

Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.[/i] 2Pe 2:9-22

[i]Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.[/i] Tit 3:1-3

[i]I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;[/i] 1Ti 2:1-3

[i]Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.[/i] Rom 16:17

Brother Mike quoted...

Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

If one looks carefully at this section of Scripture we find that the reason for this sinful activity is the pursuit of wealth by men who use God's name to deceive the congregation. The nature of these men's sins are compared to Balaam's. Balaam sold his soul for the wealth of this world. Balaam was among the kings of this world and enabled them to corrupt the people of Israel. Likewise today there are many who profess to be Christ's yet they seek the treasures of this world.

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Who are those who speak great swelling words of vanity? Who diseminates the "message" to sway the masses into destruction?

Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Who are these who speak evil of the kings of this world?

How should we pray for those who rule over us...according to Scripture, Paul teaches that the focus of our prayers should be...

1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty

We are to pray that the kings of this earth allow the believers to live in peace. We are to pray that the kings of this earth rule in a way that allows us the believers to live our lives in godliness and honesty.

Do we pray for our kings to bring this to us or are be being beguiled by these covetous men? Are we being tossed to and fro by by men who swagger in their covetous practices?

Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices;

Are these times perilous or filled with the peace of God? Do kings have a covetous heart? Do the believers see the season in which they live? Or are we being caused to stumble by those who live for the hopes of this world. It the evidence of their walk cemented in the Rock or Satan's world?

Just some thoughts

In Christ
Jeff

I am excited and terrified everyone! I think we are about to see ,if the Lord Tarries,chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel go down!

Check out Joel Rosenberg's Blog.
www.joelrosenberg.com

If you have not read Epicenter then you are missing out! Its even out on DVD now.

Come Lord Jesus!

Hi Annie...

I'm glad that you've read up writings from some of the higher ups and powers that be. However, I have "rubbed shoulders" with many of these men. In my experiences with NASA and various Governors Conferences and dissertation research, I have had the opportunity to sit (and even pray) with some "important" national and state leaders. Many of them are extremely sincere in their jobs -- and are quite open-minded on many issues. I was startled that many of them are ordinary men of extradinary means. Several of them are quiet and meek individuals. To suppose that our executive leaders are part of some great conspiracy to control the oil industry, in my opinion, is as ridiculous as believing that NASA is hiding evidence of UFOs. While real firsthand investigation will often prove otherwise, there are always individuals willing to believe the worst. In my opinion, it is far more frightening to understand that the reigns of our nation (and world) are in the hands of such ordinary men.

However, my point was not to turn this into a political defense of the President, Vice-President or Secretary of State. Rather, we often hear some believers hurling slandrous opinions about our national leaders (evening publicly questioning their claims of salvation) and sometimes forget to pray for them. While we should always be cautious about the policies and political processes of any nation (our citizenship is first in Heaven), we should still perform our call as believers to pray for those in leadership.

What should we pray?

I am praying for President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other leaders -- that they might know the LORD as I so desperately wish to know Him. I pray that they are as intimate with Christ as I long to be.

Bible prophecy is, at best, speculative. We know what the end and almost end times have in store. Yet the middle pieces of the puzzle are often interpreted differently according to our own understanding or beliefs. Rapture believers are holding out for that "blessed hope." Post-tribbers are preparing for the worst. And those (like me) who really aren't certain which is true (post, mid or pre trib) are listening to two sides argue. Wouldn't it be great if we could all just keep our eyes on Jesus? By doing so, we won't allow that day to come upon us like a thief. I know that we are all striving for this. But sometimes, we let out limited understanding of the times cloud our vision of His face.

I love you guys!

:-)

Dear Mike, I understand if my links would make you nervous, but to throw those "names and accusations and with those scriptures" at people you don't agree with is quite hard. Beyond hard brother - Look at all my other posts elsewhere and look again at your scripture verses.
I believe and fought for unity between us all since here, but just because we do not all believe this world is not being governed by who we think it is ... you post all of that ?

Food for thought ? No this is slander from you.

There is no slander in any of the scriptures mentioned and the point has nothing to do with what I believe one way or the other about the subject(s) at hand. I have looked at your other posts elsewhere and you have been taking shots at people contrary to what you are stating.

You call me arrogant and use the harshest Scriptures there are at me when you don't know my HEART in this matter or my motives.

Your name calling and censorship ...

"[i]This is not a place for political wrangling, conspiracy and editorial.[/i]"

Stop posting these kind of links that have no place on this forum.

And again to to others as it applies, we watch very carefully subjects of politics and the spirit that often accompanies them. If they cannot be discussed with charity and without divisive qualities they will be shut down. This is a ministry to people all across the world who also have their own politics that never see the light of day here, something to keep well in mind for those of us in the West.

Dear Blunt did you see today's posting on his site?

http://joelrosenberg.blogspot.com/

Saturday, July 21, 2007
REPORT: IRAN AGREES TO HELP SYRIA GO NUCLEAR

Disturbing news out of the last few days of talks between Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Bashar Assad, news that suggests a tightening of the emerging alliance between Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas and Russia, even as Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says publicly that Israel "can't hold onto the West Bank forever."
EXCERPTS:
* "Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad pledged to help Syria conduct nuclear research during a visit to Damascus earlier this week, the London-based Arabic-language newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat reported on Saturday. In exchange, Syria agreed not to engage in peace talks with Israel. On Friday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called on Syrian President Bashar Assad to begin direct peace negotiations, without American mediation. According to the report, Iran also pledged to provide Syria with $1 billion in military aid to purchase arms from Russia and North Korea."
* "Syria [will] purchase 400 Russian tanks, 18 MIG-31 fighter jets, and additional up-to-date military equipment. Ahmadinejad also promised to train Syrian air force and naval officers in Iran, and pledged to construct a factory in Syria that would produce medium-range missiles. Iran will also supply Syria's navy with missiles, and provide the Syrian army with Iranian-made tanks and armored vehicles. In exchange, the Syrians agreed to continue supporting Iran's position on affairs concerning Lebanon."
* "During his visit to Damascus on Thursday, Ahmadinejad met with Assad, Hezbollah's leader Hassan Nasrallah, and Hamas political chief Khaled Meshal. Ahmadinejad welcomed what he called Hezbollah's victory over Israel in last summer's war in Lebanon and called for a similar 'victory' this summer.The source stressed while the two countries close relations had in the past been based on mutual animosity toward former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, the relations are now based on the fact that both countries face threats by the United States and Israel."
HEADLINES TO TRACK:
* Iran to fund Syrian arms deals: Report says Ahmadinejad, Assad signed agreement according to which Syria will not enter peace talks with Israel in return for military assistance from Islamic Republic, including funding of future arms deals with Russia, North Korea
* Iran to provide Syria with $1b for new weapons
* Iran attack could be 2nd Holocaust, Gingrich warns
* Olmert says: Israel can't hold West Bank forever

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

brethren
while it is good to understand why wars are fought and such inasmuch as it pertains to the natural, would it not profit us more to know what God is working out in the supernatural? i see this war in Iraq and events in the middle east more in the light of what God is doing and it is a most amazing viewpoint.God has engineered things to His Glory Forever. i see our involvement in Iraq (whether one thinks likes the idea or not) as God setting us up for a Judgment. The war on terror, the drama in the middle east is God moving the chess-pieces on the board in preparation for the culmination of the Age. Maranatha!

on the war of Gog and Magog as outlined in Ezekiel, i feel Joel Rosenberg has this war placed a little too early if he thinks it is upon us. i have read the book Epicenter and it was a most interesting read. Indeed i believe oil will turn up in Israel in crazy amounts but this is not what will precipitate the invasion of Gog and Magog. In fact we ought to examine the scriptures carefully. If we consider Ezekiel 36 which is the chapter which talks about the return of Israel to the land, we see that much of what was said would happen (and what needs to precede Israel's return) has yet to occur. There is a desolation which leaves the land uninhabited for a period. This desolation i believe (in this i agree with our dear bro Katz) is what will result from the coming invasion of Israel by the Arabs which surround her. This invasion may well be because of oil, but it is not the war of Gog and Magog. Israel will once more be cast out of the land for a period. There is a prophecy in Zechariah 13 which talks about 2/3 of Israel being cut off (killed) and the remaining third purified by fire.

Ezekiel 36 makes clear mention of a cleansing work of God which happens in the land of Israel which will see Israel dramatically transformed and repentant. God says:

[b]16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. [/b]

we know Israel was Judged during the holocaust, a thing which Israel and perhaps many of us as Christians have not acknowledged as judgment hence the desire to see Israel as she is now succeed. This leads to a warped view of how things are unfolding and why. Now clearly most Jews are Jews in name only and do not worship God properly but are worshipping other gods. in Israel there is much wickedness going on which God will not ignore and because God is God, He will Judge. of course this is not limited to Israel.

then God says:
[b]22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. [/b]

it seems to me that the return of Israel to the land will be accomplished not by might or flesh but by God's hand. most of us have probably grown up thinking that 1948 was that event but it wasn't.i used to think so until God used bro Katz to show me how carelessly i had been reading the scripture. Ezekiel 36 outlines what must happen in terms of the resettling of the land.

[b]25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.[/b]

this seems to imply a complete about face from the mentality/spirituality of the Jews upon being brought back into the land. also God says they shall dwell in the land He gave to their forefathers...now to me this implies the WHOLE land which includes Jordan, parts of Syria up to Damascus (though damascus will be destroyed prior to the return of ISrael from captivity) and so on, a much larger chunk of land that the sliver Israel sits on now. This requires a destruction of those nations, perhaps the desolation in the land will be due to the employment of the Samson option when ISrael is attacked.

God says also:
[b]31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.[/b]

This hasn't happened in anywise. the Jew is yet operating in the same spirit of his forefathers in his contempt for God. There has been no loathing or repentance for these things of the kind which i think God is implying will come forth here.

[b]32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.[/b]

and this cleansing also seems to me an ultimate kind of cleansing which is very plain to anyone who sees. The idea that the land was once desolate and becomes like the garden of Eden got me thinking. when i sought God on it, He asked me if i had ever seen the garden of Eden. i haven't and He showed to me that the lushness of the land will be unlike anything man has ever seen. Sure Israel looks nice now, much in terms of fruit and produce is exported but i don't think by any stretch it is like Eden.

[b]36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. [/b]

now this verse here seems to me to be saying that some of the nations round about ISrael will be destroyed somehow before ISrael returns. God says "the nations which are left" that implies some will be gone. If we consider the expanse of land which Abraham travelled and was occupied, we see that it includes Jordan, Syria (david set a garrison in Damascus), lebanon and some other land. These nations will be removed to make way. This is where Damascus is reduced to a ruinous heap. And then God says that these nations will KNOW that God has done this. ain't no Arab nation in that area acknowledged this since 1948. it seems to me we have left out key parts of what must happen upon the return to ISrael.

Ezekiel 37 talks about the valley of dry bones and the resurrection of Israel. it echoes much of what God said in Ezekiel 36 about the cleansing of Israel from her uncleanness but in verse 24, there is mention of one key thing which is yet missing which must happen upon coming back into the land...

[u][i][b]24 And David my servant shall be king over them[/b][/i][/u][b]; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.[/b]

now which David could this be but the Christ? i don't know how many Jews in Israel have received Christ but i doubt it is very many. This section speaks to me of either Jews coming to Salvation or Christ Ruling over them in a literal sense perhaps after the Millenial reign, or both. Either way, it seems central that Christ Rule over them in their hearts which is not the case now.

[b]26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.[/b]

this may be a new temple in Jerusalem which God Himself will put (i believe this) or God's undeniable presence in the land or both. Either way, the nations, heathen nations have not known nor acknowledged that God has done this.Anyhow the sanctuary will endure forever.

Ezekiel 38:

[b]8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. [/b]

It seems at the time of this war, Israel has been brought back into the land after a judgment from among the nations and are dwelling safely. Israel is on edge most of the time fearing attack.

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, F177 all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take F178 a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

This doesn't seem to be the case in Israel at present given the constant threat of attack. The gathering of the people from the nations seems to imply a judgment, a casting out of the land itself rather than the judgment of the holocaust.

the thing which precipitates the war is that God for His own Name's Sake has restored Israel and this is quite offensive to the nations around her because they know well of Israel trachery against them and to them "it's not fair" This means that our Lord's coming is a little further off than we envision, which means we have work to do before we go home.

i may well be wrong in all this. bro Katz had written about this issue in an article on their website called "letters to a friend" and he speaks of it in a sermon called "the time of Jacob's trouble" and also "Amos 9" perhaps they would be good listening as he goes into more depth than i have.

a couple of questions for us to consider:

why do we want Israel as it is now to succeed at all costs?

are we willing to consider that maybe she must fail for God to do something which ALL the nations will aknowledge Him for?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Dear brethren,

I really don't see the pupose in posting stuff like this. Can you imagine the apostles huddled around in a room discussing and mulling over and sensationalizing such topics of conspiracy and secular drama? It does absolutely nothing in terms of edification and fostering a spirit of purity, of yearning after holiness in the hearts of God's children. It actually does the opposite; it instills worldy fear and promotes vanity here on SermonIndex. If I want to fill my head with this drama, I'll turn on the television! O brethren, let's move onto perfection in Christ. Let's hide our lives in the Crucified One and set our minds on things above, and not things beneath.

It's true that Jesus spoke of rumors of war, [i]but we are not to help spread them[/i].

Brother Paul

PaulWest wrote:
Let's move onto perfection in Christ. Let's hide our lives in the Crucified One and set our minds on things above, and not things beneath.

amen, even if some subjects can be "good" to discuss, still if it makes us stray from the "mark" we still miss the "best".

amen, even if some subjects can be "good" to discuss, still if it makes us stray from the "mark" we still miss the "best".

Precisely. When we stoop to the level of the sensationalism, we settle for so much less. How can someone gaze into the eternal face of Christ...and then turn around and be alarmed by the same propaganda that electrifies the godless?

I wonder if the men and Giants on the other side of the Flood thought Noah was sensationalizing everything, too.

Ah, but Noah heard from God, Corey. God [i]told[/i] him to build the boat. If someone else tried to build the same kind of boat, God would not have honored it. See, the Ark was many, many years in the making...and Noah walked with God the whole time. Today we see self-proclaimed Noah's who do not walk upright like the real Noah did...and they take it upon themselves to build Arks and warn. But there's no power, no authority; only confusion and strife because its not God's place or time for them. You can build the boat if you like, but I guarantee the animals will not come. We always seem to get in trouble when we try to use Jesus or Noah or David or John the Baptist as defense mechanisms for why we do things that may be [i]less than spiritual.[/i] I hear what you're saying, brother, but I just don't think Noah's Ark and you propagating these tabloid rumors are one and the same. I do think your intentions are honest and good, though.

Not being angry at you or judgmental in the least; just a bit curious! I am very fond of you, brother. :-)

Brother Paul

Then let me win an argument once in a while!!!

Ah, brother. I love you too much for that. I'd rather give you the truth straight on, as the Lord provides, and not hold back any meat. You can lose friends this way (hint, hint), but the ones you gain make it so worthwhile.

I love you, brother. Let's go on together...let's continue to climb the mountain of Christ-mindedness. At the top of this mountain is perfection, and I know we won't reach the peak till we see our Captain face-to-face....but this doesn't mean we have to loiter around the foothills!

Gird up the loins of your mind, strap on your rucksack and let's go! And don't look down!

Brother Paul

crsschk, I posted the following to another thread wherein another poster in name-dropping, just like you:

I am failing to see what this idea of 'name-dropping' is.

I know you folks wish I'd just shut up and leave so you card-carriers can get back to your Churchian "shop talk". Heaven forbid anyone should warn you about impending disaster...

...except for David Wilkerson perhaps, who will charge you $10.00 per book to find out...

This type of comment is completely unnecessary, barbs and slights at the brethren. How difficult is it to see past the topics to the spirit that they are often brought in with? It is often not the subject matter but how the matter is subjected and the retaliation by accusation ... very poor, very childish. These things ought not to be ...

PaulWest wrote:
Dear brethren,

I really don't see the pupose in posting stuff like this. Can you imagine the apostles huddled around in a room discussing and mulling over and sensationalizing such topics of conspiracy and secular drama? It does absolutely nothing in terms of edification and fostering a spirit of purity, of yearning after holiness in the hearts of God's children. It actually does the opposite; it instills worldy fear and promotes vanity here on SermonIndex. If I want to fill my head with this drama, I'll turn on the television! O brethren, let's move onto perfection in Christ. Let's hide our lives in the Crucified One and set our minds on things above, and not things beneath.

It's true that Jesus spoke of rumors of war, [i]but we are not to help spread them[/i].

Brother Paul

It is so easy to dismiss what we do not want to hear.

It is easier still to say, "let us take the higher road, and seek only Jesus", when it was Jesus who gave the instructions to watch for the signs of the times, and with watching, comes discussion.

[color=993300]Matthew 24:32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[/color]

If it is 'political' or 'divisive' or 'unspiritual', it is at least an attempt at obedience.

It is this that keeps me from the churches...the soft spoken, kindly dismissal of 'all that conspiracy stuff'. No, no fearmongering, please. We don't consider those topics relevant to spiritual growth. No doom and gloom here, please. We don't want to scare the saints!

Of course, they don't teach damnation either...it interferes with their 'spirituality'.

Well, unfortunately, the devil is good at making conspiracies...the 'New World Order' that we are facing started before WWI. Decisions were implemented that changed our schools, and what was taught there until nothing much is taught at all except confusion.

Strange that so many would rather be high minded than obey Jesus; to be so gentle with one another until no one dare raise their voice and say, "the enemy approaches"!

How can there not be speculation as we attempt to discern what is happening, in what order, and what matches with prophecy?

I am not an alarmist. I simply sit and read and study, and I see much that fits with prophecy.

No, not everything is ready yet, but we are at the point where God can bring about the Gog/Magog that clears the land for the remainder of the Jews to return to Israel, at any time! A larger Israel, that has been reminded of her God, and is turning to Him.

And being God, He can move things along quite briskly...there is very little left to be done...the New World Order is in place...just not openly in charge. But the economics are in place. The politics are mutable in a moment. And the heretical World Wide Church is consolidating more quickly each week.

Yes, Israel will be a stumbling stone, and a cup of trembling. Did you forget that part?

There can be many small wars in the Middle East until the Neville Chamberlain of the current decade is saying, peace, peace...no matter the cost. After all, it's really only about those 'Jews'!

And with Israel returning, after one conflict that only God saves her from, and into belief in a God they barely recognize now, will also be the increase of Jewish believer's in Jesus, who in the end will be the latter day apostles, to the Jews, and to the Gentiles.

And it can happen tomorrow, but you don't really believe it.

You need not watch. You need not have faith. You need not obey.

Be as spiritually highminded as you wish. But you sicken me with your lack of belief, and your disobedience!

I will carefully sort out through the masses of junk on many websites for the facts that are building the end of days. And when the Lord comes, if I am alive, He will find me doing what He told me to do, almost 2000 years ago.

In you I hear "Where is the promise of His coming?"

[color=993300]2 Peter 3:1. This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2. That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.[/color]

Scoffers! Mockers!

Be gentle and 'spiritual' if you wish. Never raise your voice, never contend with one another over such a small thing as obedience!

Evidently, obedience is not worth being pressed vehemently upon you!

And the saving of a soul is not worth a raised voice, or a lack of perfect harmony.

You, who are the 'leaders' of a dying church, that seek revival, and yet will not lead a charge into the future, shouting at the top of your voices, 'For Jesus!'.

For these attempts at obedience to Jesus "does absolutely nothing in terms of edification and fostering a spirit of purity, of yearning after holiness in the hearts of God's children."

Is there purity and holiness without obedience? In the rarified atmosphere of your 'purity' and your 'holiness', as you seek Jesus, you may find Him come, and none of you watching for His return.

Blessings,

Forrest

You need not watch. You need not have faith. You need not obey.

Forrest, I thought my post was reasonable and sober. I didn't post it in haste. There is a big difference between discussing endtime signs and strewing miscellaneous propaganda all over the forum. I [i]never[/i] said a Christian need not watch, or have faith, or obey. But this is different. This is the exploitation of sensationalism and a violation of forum guidlelines. It's newspaper prophecy gone amuck, and it's purpose is to startle and thrill the soul. I am not a moderator, but I've noticed Mike B. has also seen through it.

If it is 'political' or 'divisive' or 'unspiritual', it is at least an attempt at obedience.

No, Forrest, it's the other way around: The reason these threads come off as political and divisive and unspiritual is because they [i]are not[/i] in the obedience of God to begin with, and they violate forum guidlelines. The Holy Spirit will not touch them.

It is easier still to say, "let us take the higher road, and seek only Jesus", when it was Jesus who gave the instructions to watch for the signs of the times, and with watching, comes discussion.

It is always [i]right[/i] to take the higher road, Forrest. Why would you even contest this? When we take the higher road and seek the face of Jesus, we don't automatically become reclusive imbeciles and shut ourselves off from current events in the world. We actually become more sober and aware of these issues; but with our vigilance also comes the wisdom to not elevate these issues beyond where they actually belong.

Be as spiritually highminded as you wish. But you sicken me with your lack of belief, and your disobedience!

I'm sorry you feel this way.

I will carefully sort out through the masses of junk on many websites for the facts that are building the end of days.

People who look for food in trashcans are usually homeless. And they come out of the dumpster with dirty clothes and stinking like the trash they were crawling though.

It is this that keeps me from the churches

Is this the only thing? The lack of rumor-mongering?

Brother Paul

Hi GrannieAnnie and all...

GrannieAnnie wrote:

But as for me, I cannot agree with your last paragraph Scripturally at all.
I suppose that is the crux of all of this in the end.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Bible prophecy is, at best, speculative. We know what the end and almost end times have in store. Yet the middle pieces of the puzzle are often interpreted differently according to our own understanding or beliefs. Rapture believers are holding out for that "blessed hope." Post-tribbers are preparing for the worst. And those (like me) who really aren't certain which is true (post, mid or pre trib) are listening to two sides argue. Wouldn't it be great if we could all just keep our eyes on Jesus? By doing so, we won't allow that day to come upon us like a thief. I know that we are all striving for this. But sometimes, we let out limited understanding of the times cloud our vision of His face.

My eyes are only on Jesus, lest I'd be nuts by now listening to all these people here and there by now.

I have complete rest in what I know and know He has promised to "keep us" who do not slumber but "watch" and count (actually "compute") the number of the Beast.

If we do not, we will be given over to "believe 'the' lie" 2Thess2, which is that, we will not be able to see in the future who the anti-Christ is and our ignorance will cause us to say, "this cannot be HIM."

That has been the reason for ALL of my posts, even those on love and unity that has been heaviest on my heart, that I've posted the most about since I've been back.

Our eschatology will either save us in the end or damn us ... that is what our Bible says.

While I believe in a time of Great Tribulation, I cannot say whether or not the coming of the Lord will be BEFORE or AFTER. There is much discussion and disagreement on this issue. Due to the lack of complete clarity in the Scriptures about times, days and seasons, no one deserves to be "warned" about "believing a lie" simply because of a disagreement about those times.

I tend to adhere to Keith Green's idea (pray for pre-trib but be prepared for post-trib) about the Lord's coming and other aspects of Bible prophecy. Besides, the MOST important thing isn't to study books, ideas and "eschatology" in regards to prophecy. Rather, it is to KNOW HIM. If we keep our eyes on the Lord and our intimacy with Him is real and Scripture based, we will not fall for any "lies" of Satan or the anti-Christ.

The same is true with all aspects of our beliefs. We do not have a right to scorn those with whom we disagree simply because we believe that our beliefs (whether spiritual, doctrinal or even political) differ. This online community is meant to provoke believers toward true Biblical revival and intimacy with Christ -- and not to subtly infuse our beliefs (about ANYTHING) as the only ones that matter. My posts were not meant to invoke any sort of mandatory political position, but rather to provide a seperate opinion to the beliefs already presented. As a result of manner in which these sorts of discussions are carried, I completely understand the perspective that the Administrator and Moderators have toward such discussion. In my opinion, these sort of discussions tend to distract from the focus of this website. My post was not intended to do this, but to draw a point of contention to what had already been written.

I apologize if it seemed otherwise. I grow weary of controversial "observations" (and yes, "conspiracy theories") that are treated as fact. We are all entitled to our own beliefs -- and we should be very cautious of warning others about the possible "deception" that might come from not agreeing on a controversial matter. As the sincere and earnest believers that we are, I know that this is our desire.

:-)

It is so easy to dismiss what we do not want to hear.

Mark that ...

If it is 'political' or 'divisive' or 'unspiritual', it is at least an attempt at obedience.

It is this that keeps me from the churches...the soft spoken, kindly dismissal of 'all that conspiracy stuff'. No, no fearmongering, please. We don't consider those topics relevant to spiritual growth. No doom and gloom here, please. We don't want to scare the saints!

Of course, they don't teach damnation either...it interferes with their 'spirituality'.

"Smarmy"

I am actually very glad you brought this forth just this way Forrest because it is making the point exactly in the opposite ... that this is [i]not[/i] the reason why so much of this is frowned upon here.

I want to attempt to set in order a few things that have long bothered and often are a perplexity as it pertains to this forum. Personally, I have been involved with attempting to moderate the conversations now for 4 years. A very striking thing! It is quite incredible to both see how much time has elapsed and how much all this has changed my thinking. That, in large part is due to being both a participant and learner while attempting the seemingly impossible often times ... policing that which is wrought with many misunderstandings, assumptions, inferences, insinuations, motives, accusations, love, charity, meekness, gentleness, slander, evil-speaking, rebuke, personal attack and effrontery ... just to name a few of many.

I could but wish to make it all so very simple and easy, black and white, but experience has proven this will never be the case.

It seems to me there is no way out of not clarifying some personal aspects as to this fool, myself, before all, even if it be redundant to those who have been here awhile, I would far rather not but ... you compel me. I am completely disinterested in defending myself or justifying poor conduct or words at any time and with that I would dispel many a notion that comes back as a retort for why I do those things I do here, as it applies to moderating this often unruly bunch.

There is not a soul here, past or present, those removed for being quite unruly, mean-spirited or for other infractions of the simple guidelines set forth here to just manage some order and disallow divisiveness, that is not truly [i]loved[/i] ... and, if I may say so, that word itself I believe is so wrought with misunderstanding, sentimentalism, emotions and other notions as to be a great crux and stumbling block to that which is where I would have all this go as an observation.

"[i]Play the ball, not the man[/i]"

This great line that we interspersed into the disclaimer here is certainly the 'goal' if you will and that I could but pray we could all more fully grasp and guide ourselves by. You see, even here, in these last few posts and that which I myself brought to bear on this matter has me wrestling once again, even after all this time, how, to break down the differences between ...

"It's not personal - but it is personal"

That sounds paradoxical and would rather change it slightly and put it;

"It's not personal - it is [i]spiritual[/i]"

My own observation and experience again is that the topic at hand can be just about anything and to address the spiritual and mannerisms, the "[i]spirit[/i]" it is done in, presented in, that is the root and marrow of what is divisive, ugly, odious, earthly, fleshly, worldly ... carnal.

What does seem to come about is the retaliation upon the topic\\subject when the address is towards the spiritual [i]and[/i] the denotation of conduct that ought not to be part of spiritual beings, which we are supposed to be, new creations, indwelt with The Spirit. Now, already there is the sense of that accusation of being [i]too spiritual[/i] but I ask, what is that? Is it really a denial that excuses carnality and wrangling in the flesh? Is there not a great contradiction whereby we justify fleshly conduct by turning things back around to ... "the matter at hand" and excuse ourselves, in other words pragmatism, the topic\\subject justifies the means and manner and allows for slights and barbs and accusations at each others [i]person[/i]?

Of course it gets even more convoluted because I fear we are too easily offended "personally" to begin with and then begin to imagine all kinds of things, draw inferences, supposings and far worse, [i]conclusions[/i] about each other. Herein lies my mentioned difficulty of "it's not personal" - but it is, or can be, or maybe it's often "[i]we are making it personal[/i]". And if I must inject the personal comment again, for what it is worth, it is always [i]spiritual[/i] that I am driving after.

But! And the great disclaimer to that, it is often failure that smites me, to charge pride, haughtiness, what have you is first a self indictment and a lingering consideration long after the fact. A ringing question redounding between the ears, a pondering and musing of the heart...

The flesh rises up. It is the default mechanism, the fall back, we are either walking in the spirit or ...? What else is there? Can we truly be 'too spiritual', was the Lord?

Redundantly, must bring forth this same grievous observation as it has often been the problem when it comes to disputing on the wrong footing and that is the business of "[i]Climbing into other peoples heads[/i]" as I am want to put it. It is a terrible, horrible thing and goes on far too frequently here and is manifested by the slights and barbs and comments especially when a challenge is being brought forth to notions or to disagreements of words stated, written, expressed. It carries with it [i]conclusions[/i] to bit's and pieces of expression and attempts to characterize the whole man\\woman in one fell swoop. Dear saints this is how the world operates and should not be telling of us regardless of whether what we might surmise of each other is true or not, mostly, it is not and will never be known emphatically especially here where the communication is limited by how well or poor expression is given. I believe it goes far beyond that anyway and has been noted in various ways by others, anything from the guy working at the Mini-Mart to the fellow driving a Mercedes, it is a great assumption to judge anybody in this fashion, [i]that we have them all figured out[/i], that is often the implication and often the slight and barbs thrown around far too casually. Beyond all that, are we not far better off, if we must harbor such nasty notions of each other, that we do so silently, without mention. For what it's worth have found that holding these things either in abayance or discounting them altogether far better, has more often than not proved later on to be the right course especially of the saints who are in a linear progression every step of the way.

I could but pray to God we could be more honest and frank with each other and put away all these fears of being offended and at the same time spare the volley's tossed about by things imagined and thus characterized of the whole character of each other.

To get a little "personal" here, the charge brought forth of pride and haughtiness were towards those carnal things being introduced by way of slights both here and elsewhere, the President for instance, like or not, like him or not he is in the place of authority that is set in order of and by God and we have no instruction otherwise than to pray for those leaders as all the scriptures teach and of course there is the exceptions that hardly need be mentioned. The point is to address the spiritual aspect does not necessitate a retaliation of accusation imagined that there is some form of agreement or political alignment or any other thing. Personally and redundantly I despise politics on this level for these very reasons, rhetoric and insinuation and the very reactions brought out by accusation which then leads on to only more and more disruption and divisive notions, like a whirlpool that just spirals downward ... Does this make any sense? Does it clarify just why we frown upon so much of this here? Experience has shown us that politics are often emotionally charged and rarely can be discussed here without the end being wreckage and disputing and accusations thrown about. Strangely, it is still allowed when it could just be thwarted altogether, we could just lock them off every time they rear up. But this is not a hard set of dictatorial rules and mandates that guide the discussions, there is freedom and liberty to look upon the machinations of this present worlds system, ponder the things to come, discuss and debate with a healthy dose of humility if it's present, but we cannot allow the wrong spirit to prevail here or for that matter on any particular subject.

I neither covet it nor am offended by much of anything anymore, especially after being maligned and misunderstood, threatened and you name it, but there ought to be some respect for the attempts to the moderators here that they have a bit of knowledge when it comes to keeping the peace and attempting to steer things towards spiritual truths and edifying that which is so multifaceted-ly presented here by sermons and articles. We are blessed beyond recognition the treasures contained in this place. There is more spiritual truth and learning from so many who have trod this path before us available here that a lifetime could never divulge itself of it all.

Lastly, Corrie and Annie would dispel whatever notions you may have currently by way of confrontation that I have done. It is in this instance and a few others that I stated what I did and believe it is also present in your reactions, your defending and slights that prove the matter to be so. But lest you be mistaken this does not spell the whole person, but these incidents and does not speak to the whole character or what you may think I am thinking. I assure you are wrong as you can be, in fact what you are doing is making me a liar by inference and insinuation that I hold something other as hidden and am speaking out of both sides of my mouth. I would not even attempt to convince you otherwise or anybody else for that matter. Nothing to defend and nothing to hide, just a fool and a servant. In fact, I thank God for the chiseling process of these years that made the flesh squirm and cry at is offendedness, at the slights and insinuations all these things that paradoxically we attempt to thwart ... Strange thing that! Perhaps we should allow more of it to crucify the flesh and the self and our precious opinion and 'carnal' "knowledge" (don't put those together please) but I digress, it seems it can only be done by time and patience, by a willingness to subject ourselves to it, to suffer after our Lords manner, following in His steps and as the Holy Spirit brings a conviction and a questioning, pondering it all.

Conspiracy theories and the like ... Sigh, is there not a giant 'perhaps' with these things? How much weight to give to them? How much of it is the equivalent to the Globe or some other tabloid publication? Is there some truth in there? Likely, possibly, would go so far as to say certainly. But what must be kept in mind is the history of SermonIndex and those things that have come here with agendas and all kinds of nastiness of this ilk and presentation. That in itself has a great deal to do with the extra care and watchfulness over these things. If I could interject a personal musing, all this has me wondering and collectively comparing it to a great deal of this present age of Christendom; Prophecy as it is so dis-appropriated and defined, this present atmosphere of eschatology and emphasis, the future casting and conspiracy theories ... It is a question, not a conclusion; Could not this be a form of necromancy, I mean to say a derivative, the [i]want[/i] of knowing the future;

[i]There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.[/i] Deu 18:10-12

It is not to be didactic and to get into all the nuance's, but the [i]desire[/i] and it raises questions of fleshly knowledge and by no means am I thinking of some burying our heads in the sand. What does this want and desire say to our trust in the Lord? How does it also equate with;

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

As principal and that which heads this whole posting;

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

And all those things before and after it, what is our lot?

But pray ye
Watch therefore: for ye know not
Therefore be ye also ready:
for in such an hour as ye think not ...
the Son of man cometh.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant,
whom his lord hath made ruler over his household,
to give them meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant,
whom his lord
when he cometh
shall find so doing.

The question also finds itself in;

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

"Entangle". Is this part of the problem? Not the discussion but the entaglement of it all? Just a question ...

Annie, you talk too much.
And so do I, which has put me in a place of more silence of late, weary of hearing my own thoughts even.

Corrie, you are a [i]trip[/i] as MC I believe put it and a lot of things both of you bring to bear here are not exactly trouble in and of themselves. The manner and spirit and the accompanying conduct will always be those things we must guard and watch ...

Don't take it too personal, take it spiritual. Should we not be contending if anything upon these lines?

Forrest;

It is so easy to dismiss what we do not want to hear.

It is easier still to say, "let us take the higher road, and seek only Jesus", when it was Jesus who gave the instructions to watch for the signs of the times, and with watching, comes discussion.

Yes, without a haughty spirit.

If it is 'political' or 'divisive' or 'unspiritual', it is at least an attempt at obedience.

Is it? In what spirit?

Be as spiritually highminded as you wish. But you sicken me with your lack of belief, and your disobedience!

Be gentle and 'spiritual' if you wish. Never raise your voice, never contend with one another over such a small thing as obedience!

Evidently, obedience is not worth being pressed vehemently upon you!

[b][i]14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.[/i][/b]

From that which you brought forth. All the above applies to you as well Forrest, stop with the insinuations and accusations, this is dripping with spiritual pride.

I am quite ready to agree with Baxter here often times, especially with some of you who must push everything to such extremes, it is a fight sometimes to keep from just bailing on it all;

[i]“And that which I named before on the by, is grown one of my great diseases. I have lost much of that zeal which I had to propagate any truths to others, save the mere fundamentals. When I perceive people or ministers, which is too common, to think they know what indeed they do not, and to dispute those things which they never thoroughly studied, or expect I should debate the case with them, as if an hour’s talk would serve instead of an acute understanding and seven year’s study, I have no zeal to make them of my opinion, but an impatience of continuing discourse with them on such subjects, and am apt to be silent, or to turn to something else; which, though there be some reason for it, I feel cometh from a want of zeal for the truth, and from an impatient temper of mind. I am ready to think that people should quickly understand all in a few words; and, if they cannot, lazily to despair of them, and leave them to themselves. And I the more know that it is sinful in me, because it is partly so in other things, even about the faults of my servants, or other inferiors; if three or four times warning do no good on them, I am much tempted to despair of them, and turn them away and leave them to themselves.[/i]

Our reactions spell us far more than we know and often are reluctant to admit to. Should we not rather confess and repent of them than to hide and defend ourselves?

I confess. I fall far short ... the spiritual is everything and the only thing eternaly lasting.

An excellent work, Mike. You write as a man who has been through the furnace of God a few times, crushed by trials and made to see his lack.

Your post causes me to seriously investigate my soul condition in God each time I submit here on SermonIndex. Over and over and over gain, I see my own folly, my flesh, my very own imperfections in understanding. I can search the archives and dig out all 1,000 plus of my posts and see smudges on each one. My own dirty fingerprint smudge right next to Jesus' perfect print.

As I look at this thread here, and my own exchange with Forrest, I see so much of PaulWest shining through, whom I hate. I need so much work. I also talk way too much here. The indomitable thirst to be [i]right[/i] and display wisdom and knowledge. And for whom? I confess, it's not always for the sole benefit of the reader -- there's also a component of self included as well, indecipherably mixed-in and diluted, though instantly detectable by the Holy Spirit.

I apologise for all the additives. What a fiery walk this life in Christ is, always purging, always consuming, always refining, though never coming to absolute perfection. But the unquenchable desire for this perfection nonetheless remains, like a constant beam from a lighthouse on a distant shore. My spirit navigates towards the radiance and encounters many waves and jutting rocks along the way -- sometimes violent typhoons -- and sometimes I even get blown off course and temporarily lose my bearing.

I really seem to get blown around alot here on SermonIndex! I've noticed the winds can pick up at the drop of a hat. But beneath all this, I know such storms are good for me, and such crushing waves are beneficial. In time, God uses them to teach us how to read the sky and prepare for danger, how to navigate safely through them, and how to hone our skills in charting our course by His Word.

If I've blown over into someone else's territory and almost collided with their vessel, I humbly apologize. Brother Corey, I mean only the best for you, GrannieAnnie, Forrest, Mike B., Worm4Christ, and anyone else who may have observed some reckless sailing on my part. Please forgive your brother.

Brother Paul

Brother Paul wrote;

Dear brethren,

I really don't see the pupose in posting stuff like this. Can you imagine the apostles huddled around in a room discussing and mulling over and sensationalizing such topics of conspiracy and secular drama?

According to Scripture they did...

Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:
\t“Why did the nations rage,
\tAnd the people plot vain things?
26 \tThe kings of the earth took their stand,
\tAnd the rulers were gathered together
\tAgainst the LORD and against His Christ.’

Acts 4:27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word,

Do you see what their prayer was? Should we not expose the evil of today?

Is it not by use of Scripture that we are enabled by God to discern both good and evil?

In Christ
jeff

The Forum

Since it's inception, the forum here has been many things. A great fellowship, a 'church' at heart while in it's unorthodox form and fashion often resembling both a battleground and a hospital. This can be both edifying as well as divisive. We hope to address a few of the misconceptions and concerns at the outset so that everyone will be on the same level footing as to what is acceptable and that which is not.

What it is not

It is not a 'chat room'.
It is not a place to bring an agenda regardless of intentions.
It is not a place for promotion of ones self, website or wares.
It is not 'denominational' while gleaning from many.
It is neither legalistic nor 'anything goes'.
It is not a place for politics, politicians, policy's nor particular support thereof. More on this below.

What it is

It is first and foremost a privilege.
It is a gathering of saints now throughout the world.
And that alone may be the most important factor to keep in mind at all times.
It is a place to share, discuss, listen, think and grow into all things in Jesus Christ.
It is bible based.
It is for the most part "KJV" preferred, but not "only".
It is apostolic in it's desire to return to Old Paths;

Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

It is in aim and undergirding Revival.
A Revival of God's thought.
Of others and lastly, ourselves.
It may be said that this is the mindset, better the heart set that resides back of intentions and motivations to all that is expressed on SermonIndex.

It is a longing for, praying for, a Revival of the same substance that is expressed through the many resources available here.

It is this foundation and focus while fostering a great freedom of discussion within some practical guidelines.

What you can expect

To be challenged unto growth in Christ
To be misunderstood.
To misunderstand others.
To be asked questions.
To be in the midst of some very experienced saints, not a handful who have walked with the Lord for many, many years.
To find like hearted Brethren as well as 'likemidnded'.
You will likely at some point be offended.
You will be blessed.
You may weep tears of joy and tears of sorrow.
You may have your theology turned inside out and upside down.
You may have yourself exposed in way's you never thought possible by your own words and thoughts as well as by those who care for your souls.
To be prayed for.

What we expect

Conduct, consideration and charity.

As illustrative, picture yourself entering a home for the first time. You are a guest. You are polite. You wipe the mud off your shoes before entering. You make an introduction. You carry yourself with respect to your host.

Hopefully, you get the idea here. We have found that hosting a forum has all kinds of inherent difficulties.

Communicating in this manner with so many different cultures, upbringings, education and lack thereof. To add even more weight is the place anyone of us may be in this walk as disciples of the Lord, we all were spiritual 'babes' in Christ at the inception of a new birth, an important reminder that needs to be reflected on often.

We must keep well in mind that expression of spiritual matters is often difficult enough, sometimes even impossible. Let us bear with one another with patience and understanding.

What is not tolerated

Slander. Ill-will. Unnecessary accusations, comments.

The issue is one of order rather than control. We allow as much patience as possible for corrections and apologies. Please make your corrections with a follow up reply, rather than by use of the edit function. There has been a misuse of this in the past where whole sections have been removed from an ongoing thread, making it now disconnected, like removing pages from a book. Please use the edit function for spelling corrections and if needed within the body of a post, please add a footnote to that which has been changed and why.

What you can do to help

Be polite. Don't be rude to others.
Keep foremost in your mind the weight of responsibility you have with what the Lord stated;

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

As well as;

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The Lord is in our midst here and this whole resource is dependant on the Holy Spirit by those who have both brought all this forth and we hope by those who participate, first as brethren and as guests\\members.

Please, pray.
Pray before you post.
Pray as you write in response.
Pray one last time and pause before you submit.

Try and think of the ramifications of your thoughts and comments. Some things need not to be said. Some things can wait. Some things just as well do need to be addressed, but the manner may add more of a problem than be a help towards correction.

You may find it best to save some things that you have spent a considerable amount of time writing to a file to be brought forth at a different time.

Use the preview button. Re-read what you have written. Reflect and ask yourself some of these questions. We have found by experience that often our particular circumstances can affect much of our thoughts in any given moment. To look at something in the morning and later in the day can reveal a completely different mindset oftentimes. We have seen more problems from reactionary impulses than from the reflective. It is welcomed to slow down and give place to each other.

There is a great deal more than could be said. These are all guidelines to make matters beneficial to all. It is a warm welcome we afford to all within these parameters. Make yourself comfortable, but keep your feet off the table. :)

Lastly

Ask questions and do your best to answer questions. Keep well in mind that often times a question is not necessarily pointed, but is truly a question. Just as well, it is especially frowned on to be jostling with each other by way of accusation towards each others intents and motives. Be forthright and honest.

"Play the ball and not the man."

Which translates to the issue being discussed. Keep to this and away from what we may assume someone is thinking. Again, ask a question rather than making an accusation.

Do keep in mind that the moderators will do their best to discern where and when to intervene and more so that they are your fellow pilgrims and servants, just as fallible as each of us here. "Moderate" your own self and leave the moderating beyond that to those appointed to do so. If you find something that is out of place, that is divisive amongst the brethren, bring it to their attention and they will do their best to address it.

Summary

Jesus is Lord.
'We' do hold to a high view of His Majesty.
'We' have no particular creed other than that He be exalted above all.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

As to fellowship here:

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

****************

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Coffee,
Yup it looks like a season of war is coming for Isreal.Remember this Mohammed siad it is OK to Lie and Backstab Infidels.

Check out a prophecy Conference put on by Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa in Late August thru Sept.The video feed is live on tuesdays and its got Rosenberg ,Smith,Hitchcock,and other guys who cover recent events and anilyze them Biblically.No riff-raff

Its called Maranatha 2: In light of the Lords return.

Check it out weekly!

Hi Grannie...

I hope you know that I truly respect you as a wonderful woman of God, and have learned quite a bit from you. The only reason that I post comments to such heated debates is precisely because I know that you have been in the faith for a much longer time than me. However...

Read Eli's thread again. If there are three times as many Scriptures on His Second Coming as there were about His First Coming, then don't buy the lie that "we can't know". That is a lie from Satan himself.

However, your beliefs are (in my estimation) regarded as 100% undeniable truth. There is no room for "reasoning together" -- because you have presented 100% undeniable truth about this subject. I know that this is probably not what you mean to convey, but this is certainly how it appears to me (correct me if I'm wrong).

I know a great many believers who have a different "understanding" about end time prophecy (amongst other subjects). They are also intelligent, sincere praying believers who also seek the truth in the matter. Some of them are pre-trib and some are post-trib. They also quote books, articles, journals and Scriptures that seemingly "back up" their beliefs.

The odd thing is that I am not convinced either way (about the Rapture -- or even if a "rapture" will ever take place in the modern popular context of the matter). I'm very much aware that the information that you provide might be 100% accurate truth. However, as flawed humans that we are, there must still be room for error.

Please understand that I have nothing but great respect for everyone who frequents these message boards. We might not all agree on what it not completely certain from Scripture, but we can all agree on what is necessary on our earthly pilgrimage. But I can't for the (eternal) life of me believe that a TRUE believer (who sincerely and honestly knows Christ intimately) can be in danger of "believing a lie" about the anti-Christ. The verse that Mike (ccrsk) used earlier says it all: "[i]...see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet[/i]." - Matthew 24:6

I pray that you forgive me of any offense that may have originated from any of my posts. That was never my intention. Nor was it my desire to be contentious about any such matters. I only desire to present the possibility that there are tens of thousands of believers here at SermonIndex who share tens of thousands of non-essential doctrinal persuasions. Much of our beliefs, although contrary to the beliefs of others, can be just as considered as the beliefs of others. The difficult part, in my case, is to know the difference between sharing those things that are indisputable fact and those of which I am merely convinced. With God's help I will do so.

:-)

According to Scripture they did...

Brother, the apostles didn't sensationalize, conspire, and gossip-monger in Acts 4. They reported what the chief priests had told them...[i]and then prayed[/i]. They beseeched the Lord.

Should we not expose the evil of today?

Certainly, but we need to go about doing it the right way. Spreading political propaganda everywhere like this is not the right way. When we stop looking to Jesus and start overly looking to what men are doing....we can get our hair snagged like Absalom in a tree. We suddenly find ourselves entangled in worldly affairs. A good way to see if you're snagged is to daily examine your heart and see where the bulk of your attention and excitement lies: in quietly hiding your life in Christ, in knowing His purity and victory over sin, or in the constant reporting of the mortal musings of unsaved men. It is fine to report on such things, but only if they are not the prime focus of your heart.

There are people who wear out the trumpet, but never pick up the lyre. I turn on the TV news channel and the heathen take care of most of the trumpet calls just fine; I've found they can play it better than the majority of God's children.

Brother Paul

Does Anyone Have an Ear to Hear Anymore?

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:17
These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Romans 12:10
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Romans 15:7
Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

Romans 15:14
And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Romans 16:16
Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1 Cor. 16:20
All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.

2 Cor. 13:12
Greet one another with an holy kiss.

Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Ephes. 4:2
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Ephes. 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col. 3:13
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Col. 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

1 Thes. 4:9
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1 Thes. 4:18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thes. 5:11
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 10:24-25
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1 Peter 5:14
Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

1 John 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:11-12
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. [12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

2 John 1:5
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Do you see the results of not hearing and obeying what is commanded that we do for one another?

Matthew 24:10
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Galatians 5:15
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Galatians 5:26
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Titus 3:3
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Rev. 6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Is this what you all desire? All of you wake up before it comes to this, for if you cannot
Love one another now; you will be killing one another then.

All of you be quiet and seek the Lord; ask Him to forgive you and then get back here and ask one another for forgiveness.

Matthew 18:21-22
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [22] Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

It is more than time for those who claim to belong to Christ to start acting like they are His.

Those in leadership have also been given instruction in how to correct and His word is the final authority it would be well for all if it were followed.

Matthew 18:15-17
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. [16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. [17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Finally:

Matthew 18:12-14
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? [13] And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. [14] Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Is it not time we started helping to keep one another, to encourage one another and to love one another as He has commanded us to do? We are never right if we go against His will and allow one of these little ones to perish.

1 John 4:11-12
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. [12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Annie,

That is quite a cheap shot to induce your personal situation into what transpires here. Often you feel free to dish it out with swipes at others but dare we not make mention of it because of your present situation. We have traveled this path before, you start bringing in divisive things, ignore the admonishens and then turn tail with a load of attempted guilt inducing indictments trailing behind you.

This is not personal as you must have it and despite the attempt to state otherwise and admit where you are wrong you would have everyone giving you sympathy or courting those of your agreement. Everything I stated to you personally since you have been back was heartfelt, my only regret is that I made it known, if I could have seen this coming I would have refrained. You know enough of the history here and what the reasons were for your leaving the last, what is it twice now? Was it not for the same upheaval, for bringing in all this kind of stuff that has no business here when all it does it create strife and contention ... You have taken swipes at people personally, to those you do not know and are new to the surroundings here.

If these things hurt you so, then you ought not be doing similar to others and then take umbrage when you are called on it. By the way, your loquacity and mine was a failed attempt at some humor and trying to lighten things up a bit ... even though it is true.

Corey,

Despite the attempt you wish to be contentious and ignore all that was stated, continuing your insinuations ...

A tiresome 'ol argument that peace-seeking "Christians" used

Ah, so now were accused of being evil Harry Potter-reading necromancers, eh?

Interesting how you can totally ignore everything that was stated and continue on with this, do you wish to be contentious anyway?

The reason you were addressed is because you are the one bringing in this stuff and continue to do so, likewise Annie with the accompanying links not just here but in other posts that are so numerous as to be impossible to keep up with. That is including however many you put up today. Slow down with these things already.

Whether I am right or wrong, this forming of little clicks here of those we only agree with will not be tolerated, the whole point of this is to root out divisiveness, not create it.

This whole thing is being completely blown out of proportion and I accept my fault for likely creating more of it than I intended. I don't know of any other way of putting it ...

[i]Play the ball, not the man[/i]

For the Lords sake.

Patorfin,

Thank you, you are correct, could but wish I had gone about this far differently, it was a mistake in the words chosen at points ...

Those in leadership have also been given instruction in how to correct and His word is the final authority it would be well for all if it were followed.

Matthew 18:15-17
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. [16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. [17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

There is a lot of history here, a lot. This is one of those scriptures we have wrestled with to apply to this setting, a very difficult situation when things are posted publicly and then attempted to be settled privately. It tends to leave everything unsettled in everyone else's mind. It seems we almost have no recourse than to do this publicly ... Most of the time this is not really about a particular trespass against "thee" meaning isolated but the whole ...

At any rate the whole thing is lamentable, I regret it.

GrannieAnnie wrote;
"GOD help you Mike Balog and whomever."

To that i say may "God help us all", for we ALL fall way short of His glory, and our righteousness as filthy rags before Him ... But bless Him that we all belong to Him who is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, and dressed in the pure white robes of His own glory" ... Tho yet we may disagree on much down here on this low plain, His power and glory dwelling in and working thru we miserable earthen vessels, we can all agree that apart from Him we are nothing and can do nothing of any Holy spiritual usefulness ...

We know topics such as this can get heated, in fact it seems like anytime folk (especially saints) start talking about world events in light of our Bible (in particular prophecy) sparks begin to fly, but a reminder that we should do all things (even disagreee) in love is always on point ...

Actually SI is the only place i see/hear/read saints in such discussions, and i praise God for it ... In my Christian circle what i believe our Lord has interested me in (subjects such as bro Rookie's posts) have no interest at all in such things ... Anyhow i'm just glad to know that there are other saints out there such as myself that even if dead wrong, are at least attempting to discern the times ... Somehow i think our God would much rather have to tone us down from trying to understand where we are at present with so many "perilous" things happening around us, than to have to tone us up (which is why i believe we're already in as much mess as we're in) ... i still find myself doing much more "sitting down and reasoning together" with Holy Spirit than i do with men, because most men i encounter don't want to hear anything about God being in this present whirlwind ... God promises to teach us if we seek Him, and those who do seek Him in areas beyond the comfort level of others if we stay in prayer for His guidiance He'll eventually strain out our misconceptions ... That's why i believe "all things", including our misconceptions of scripture and/or the times, He will eventually work out to our good by teaching us the truths that will set us free ... Anyhow ...

Bro Jeff wrote;
"Are these times perilous or filled with the peace of God? Do kings have a covetous heart? Do the believers see the season in which they live? Or are we being caused to stumble by those who live for the hopes of this world. Is the evidence of their walk cemented in the Rock or Satan's world?

Just some thoughts"

i think the answers to his questions are pretty obvious ... Of late something else strange (my entire saved life has been strange) has happened to me, and i've been seeking our Lord about it, for now when i look at so many news programs, and Christian ministries, where once i could seem to glean some tid bits of info from them, now all i seem to hear is repititious blah, blah, blah, blah, blah (generating heat, but no light) ... ... i'm wanting to make sure that this is not because i'm weary in well doing (or well hearing), but moreso that our Lord has now redirected my attention to a work ahead of the one i believe He'd given me initially and so my interest has been moved on ... It's like in my spirit i hear Him saying that the time for "empty lip service" is way past over ... Amazing that so much energy and breath is spent on what we ought to be doing, instead of just doing it ... It's like Ravenhill said, we'd much rather form a committe, than a commitment" ... At present the only TV preachers i can still listen to are John Hagee and Charles Stanley, and i look forward to The Hal Lindsey report because he's the only media guy period whom i hear as a "watchman on the wall" ... There's so much info brought out in juxtaposition of present events and Scripture in his unpolished reports, than in all the polished crap our newspeople put out ... It was in his reports that i even learned of the serious tension now between Israel and Syria (backed by Iran), and a possible correlation between this and Isiah's prophecy in chapter 17 ... i could totally understand saints not questioning God in times of peace, but in times such as ours i find it most disturbing that we're not bugging Him to know end about the how's and why's in accordance with His Word ...

In light of escalating current events, this scripture now stays on my mind constantly:

Matt.16:3 - "And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" ...

And i question Him, "Lord have i been, and am i now discerning this present time correctly by Your Spirit's leading, or am i just as overboard amongst the few that many fellow saints concider overboard" ... i've gotten no definitive answer as of yet (tho i do believe our Lord has promised that He will make it plain to me by 2007's end), so everytime i get into one of my personal pity doubting parties i'll get hit with some reconstitution scripture that continues me on as His answer to my turmoil ... Of late that scripture is 2 Cor. Chapter 4 which was spoken to me three times, from three different sources two Sundays ago, and so by faith i keep watching, praying and saying ...
Anyhow as i've said to Him, "If i'm weary of anything it's not so much in the well doing that is my reasonable Christian service, as it is of not really yet knowing for sure whether what i've been doing for the past 20 sump'n years in my belief of being called to the prophetic is truly of Him, or somehow of my own twisted self ... If only i we're as sure, or convinced as so many others that i'm not ...
They're thought, "What if it's not God"? ... My thought, "What if it is"? ...

This whole course of events, especially from 9/11 onwards, just screams at me as signs of a time that we should be percieving from a totally spiritual point of view, instead of from all these natural angles ... Seems to me mankind at present has once again allowed ourselves to be manuvered into a satanically inspired position of world conflict in which our enemy can massively kill, steal and destroy, to the horrendous additions of Christless souls dying and irretrievably damned to eternal hell ... This world, and to me particularly America (alledgedly full of Christians), seems under the power of so strong a delusion, that even the Body of Christ itself can seem to no longer collectively discern that massive on our faces REPENTANCE and subsequent Holy Ghost filled REVIVAL is the only answer ... As pastor Hagee said this past Sunday, "It's madness to attempt to solve problems in the natural realm whose roots and cause are in the spiritual ...

By God's guidance i think i have a pretty good understanding in the natural of the Neo-Con's thinking, agenda, and the why's of why America is in Iraq ... What's also sad to percieve is that so many of them, as well as others in our government and citizentry who claim Christ, can't see that it would be all of impossible to pull off such a concept, or stay solvent in the world as a preimmenient power, now so far out of the protection of God that true adherence to Him and His word affords ... Also as pastor Hagee brought out in his sermon, Americans (many saints included) tho as wicked as we've become still think of ourselves as the same virtuous nation of yesteryear, blind to the fact that we're naked before Him ... Thank God that this nation, so full of professed Christians, can rely on Him to not leave us this way spiritually, for as many as He loves He also promises to rebuke and chasten ...

i love knowledge, and i like being in the know of just how, as the facts unfold in the natural, of why we've come to such an awful place in the world, but without disecting these seemingly "natural" occurences with the "super-natural" word of God we'll never be able to fully understand not only "why", but more importantly what we need to do in the spiritual in reaction, and that is to REPENT ...
i know it seems to simple, i once thought the same, but i believe the only answer to ALL problems small and great is a complete and total "surrender" and "submission" to God, and His standards, and of His Bride that is our due benevolence to Him, the spots and wrinkles have to go before we can go with Him ...

i pray as many as will will continue to attempt to discern the times and discuss topics such as these, but will do so in the repentance of Christlike love when we feel our feelings being hurt and we lash out from the pit of self ... God knows i believe that soon, and very soon, in His correction, our love for one another is about to become paramount in our mutual welfare ...

John 13: [34] A new commandment I give unto you, That ye LOVE one another; as I have loved you, that ye also LOVE one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have LOVE one to another.

1Cor.13
[1] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not LOVE, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
[2] And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not LOVE, I am nothing.
[3] And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not LOVE, it profiteth me nothing.
[4] LOVE suffereth long, and is kind; LOVE envieth not; LOVE vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
[5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
[6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
[7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[8] LOVE never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
[13] And now abideth faith, hope, LOVE, these three; but the greatest of these is LOVE.

MAY THE LOVE OF CHRIST JESUS SHINE AND BIND US ALL! ...

Brother Paul wrote:

Certainly, but we need to go about doing it the right way. Spreading political propaganda everywhere like this is not the right way.

The article I posted truly does contain speculation as to what is going on behind the scene. The chess match that is being played and the possible outcomes are only known by God.

I should have been more concise on why I posted this particular article.

From the very beginning of the occupation of Iraq the intent of the U.S. was made clear by the evidence of what they hoped for. The effort to build permantent military bases in strategic areas of Iraq began with this occupation.

The vast majority of the funds that have been spent for "rebuilding" Iraq have been spent to build these military fortresses.

The evolution of this hope began after the Soviet Union was defeated and withdrew from this region. This process began with President Bush the father, then President Clinton, and now President Bush.

These military fortresses will not be abandoned. And this will be an ongoing source for fomenting war and strife in this region of the world.

The purpose of this thread to to bring out the "spirit of Balaam," that has coopted many in the church. Balaam sold out God's people for what the world treasures. Likewise the kings of this earth submit to the whore of Babylon. The wine of their fornication causes the earth to shake.

A walk with God through Scripture will cause one to know what is good and also know what to reject as evil. These are two precepts that all who follow Christ will come to see.

Just like in the days of Christ the kings of this earth still plot in vain.

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Rahman wrote:

i pray as many as will will continue to attempt to discern the times and discuss topics such as these, but will do so in the repentance of Christlike love when we feel our feelings being hurt and we lash out from the pit of self ... God knows i believe that soon, and very soon, in His correction, our love for one another is about to become paramount in our mutual welfare ...

If we stand back for a moment from the content of all these threads that you, Ironman, and myself have spawned, what comes to mind is that much strife comes from them. Why does this spawn so much strife?

There is the spiritual answer, there will always exist enmity between Satan and the woman, between his children and the children of God.

Why are we so quick to defend the pursuits of men? Why do we allow ourselves to remain under the influence of this world?

The answer sits with what we hope in, the evidence is what we strive for.

God Bless
Jeff

Hi rookie...

Why are we so quick to defend the pursuits of men? Why do we allow ourselves to remain under the influence of this world?

The answer sits with what we hope in, the evidence is what we strive for.

From the very beginning of the occupation of Iraq the intent of the U.S. was made clear by the evidence of what they hoped for. The effort to build permantent military bases in strategic areas of Iraq began with this occupation.

Why do I sometimes write a "defense" in such matters? Is it because I am a neo-con ready to defend my President at all cost? Of course not. I simply want to let it be known that, when such accusations fly, there is another side to the story. We must, as believers, be willing to test sources. We should never be afraid or offended when someone "calls our bluff" and challenges the authenticity of our claims.

We should be very careful about such claims.

:-)

Lord I pray you are in these post Lord i ask you give wisdom where it is needed and a humble heart were it is needed. Father may your word bring us to our faces and pray. Lord I ask you give us open eyes to who needs it Lord so we can see our wrong. Lord brake us and humble us. father although it might hurt bring us to our knees with a heart of confession. Let us not piont a finger at no one but ourself help us oh God we need you to help us to see. By your spirit bring growth when iron sharpen iron. Let us take what is hard and gain understanding. Help us oh God. amen
in his love
charlene

[b]GrannieAnnie ...[/b]

i've nothing else to say, just felt led of our Lord to stress "LOVE" from, toward & amongst us ALL ... :-D

[b]Bro Jeff[/b] you wrote;
"If we stand back for a moment from the content of all these threads that you, Ironman, and myself have spawned, what comes to mind is that much strife comes from them. Why does this spawn so much strife?'

See bro Jeff in my own particular "peculiarness" i don't believe our posts are spawned from us, the devil and his hordes would have no problem with that for then we'd just be other blind men attempting leadership of other blind men, so to the contrary i believe it's because our posts are spawned by Holy Spirit as the Power who worketh in and thru us earthen vessels, and is able to be birthed forth out of our oft times exscrutiating partenering of our surrender and submissiveness to His doing so ...

2Cor.4: [6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [7] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

i firmly believe if it we're not for His calling me (as i'm sure you and bro Ironman may agree) to my strange walk with Him, as compared to so many other saints i know who seem more normal than me, i'd not have done, or continue to do, any of the seemingly overly dramatic things i've done/still do out of believing His unctioning of me to do so ... To me the strife starts in the supernatural realm from the very time Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit to His spilling forth something via His earthen vessels concerning these dark times we're living in that may be instrumental in saving souls, or even more devil threatning toward further "perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry" ... i believe satan is scared to death of a massive REPENTANCE and soul saving REVIVAL in the Body of Christ and the exposure such a movement would cause him, as i also believe he's very aware of those in God's manuvering to the slapping away at the spiritual stupor he has us in ... As in Paul's time i do believe that there are folk right now who satan is personally aware of, and is in fear of what God will wrought thru such foolish toward the tearing down of his strongholds, and would kill us quick if God would allow him to (and God yet may allow) ...

[b]Bro Jeff[/b] you wrote;
" Why are we so quick to defend the pursuits of men? Why do we allow ourselves to remain under the influence of this world?"

To me it all has to do with darkness and light, and what comfortable association can one have with the other? ... To a greater or lesser degree fallen mankind has an affinity for the dark, even we saved folk, which is why we're told to ever keep pressing toward the mark ...

It's funny, i can talk about anything happening on the world scene today to both saved and unsaved, as long as i discern and discuss it in satan's dark world of the natural explanation, but don't let me bring such events under the scrutiny of God's word, His plan, ot the fact that i believe He's telling me to tell all that He's in the midst of our present whirlwind to the bringing of us to correction ... As long as today's world events are subscribed to man, by even the most cock-a-mamie of conspiricist theories, it's all good ... But hell rises up fast to the challenge when you bring THE LIGHT to such dark subjects, for even the devil himself does'nt want to be exposed as the source of all darkness, and especially so when he's in the midst of perpetrating his most diabolical darkness, that of presenting himself as an angel of light (which is why i believe so many church folk want to stone anyone calling for REPENTANCE) ... Nobody, saved or unsaved, likes His light shone into our dark places, and especially not once we've become comfortable in it ... It is only by God's grace and mercy that He's pried me out of so much darkness in my life as He has, and there is always much more for Him to shine on, but i can tell you that what He's conquered in me thus far i've battled against Him tooth and nail every step of the way ... Bless Him that He's determined to finish His good work in me, for if it we're not so the last place i'd be is here posting here on SI right now ... God knows how often i've wished not to believe His special calling on my life, as i could have a much more easier time in my walk as i do ... But i can't shake the faith of calling, and so i sense myself ever being drawn closer toward THE LIGHT, to the benifit of the multitude, and the ultimate bringing of glory to His name ... As with His changing Jacob's name to Israel, i know it is God contending for and with me, and very seldom the other way around ...

John.3: [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1Pet.2: [9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

May His marvelous Light continue to purify us from all that hinders from our being totally surrendered, submitted and sold out earthen vessels of His glory, praise and honor!

To my dear 'peculiar" brother...

May His marvelous Light continue to purify us from all that hinders from our being totally surrendered, submitted and sold out earthen vessels of His glory, praise and honor!

Amen. May we grow toward the upward call of Christ in our life.

Together always
In Christ
Jeff

Sis wrote:

Brother Rahman and Rookie, you've always exemplified "love". Each of us, for the most part, do in our own individual/personal way.

Let us endeavour into eternity Sis, only in God's wisdom can we experience how He gifts us individually to make His church whole.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

Brother Chris wrote:

There are thousands of accusations laid daily against men (like President Bush) who will never have a chance to defend themselves. Often, many of the accusations start with fact but then stray to the realm of speculation or deduction.

I don't believe the particular article that I posted can be considered accusation. I agree that there is indeed speculation.

I am not argueing with you, just asking if you are aware of this fact?

Have you found that the U.S. has built, I think 14 major military bases in Iraq? And that most of the money spent in Iraq on reconstruction has been spent on building these bases?

The building of this infrastructure began well before the insurgency took root.

How do you know these things? Are you an expert in this matter, or do you get your information from the same places that the rest of us do?

I am no expert. However, for years I have sought to understand the reasons behind why my father, a world war 2 vet, a Korean Conflict POW, a steel worker, lost his job because of foreign economic forces. While everyone else was watching football games or spending time at the mall I would read all kinds of material related to political-economics. Before Christ, I was always searching for the reason why my father's American dream was taken away from him.

I've read NSA position papers on topics like the cold war doctrine and population growth and the resultant economics risks that the U.S. would face in various places of the world. I've read books which highlight CIA successes in influencing or toppling foreign governments. Italy was the first successful mission for the CIA. Once thought to be conspiracy theories, of U.S. backed government overthrows of democractically elected leaders such as Mosedegh? of Iran, Sadam Hussein of Iraq, Pinochet of Argentina or is it Chile?, Panama, Nicuaragua, Cuba...are now verifiable facts.

As one grows in the understanding of why fallen man strives for world economic supremacy one will recognize the patterns that continue to repeat itself.

Even attending events like the Kern County Science Fair with my daughter, a scientist from Livermore labs, discussed what we should expect to see as thee most important issue facing the world in the next 20 years. The number one issue is energy. Did you know that one barrel of oil has the energy equivalent of 12 men working one year. Just think about it, oil is only 74 dollars a barrel. Even wages in China can not compare to this economic equivalent.

The oil industry is rapidily changing. The U.S. oil companies control only 18% of the world's oil. There is a trend working against the U.S. in every continent of the world. Each country is nationalizing the oil, natural gas, and raw materials industries. China with it's excess dollars is buying up vast amounts of natural resources to supply it's economic engine.

The oil production in the U.S. peaked in 1974. Mexico having the third largest oil production field in the world, has repeatedly announced the fact that this field is now past peak production.

The only places oil is being found is in Russia and it's southern border countries, Africa, and Venezuela. But there is a unknown in the variable in this equation. Iraq, since it's war with Iran, then the U.S., has not been developed and pumped for the last 20 years like all the other oil fields. Much of the oil still is in the ground.

What do you see in terms of our energy problem?

In Christ
Jeff

[b]

could but wish I had gone about this far differently, it was a mistake in the words chosen at points ...

At any rate the whole thing is lamentable, I regret it.

You said this needs to be done in public, this was your call -- What was done here, after I said I would leave for the sake of peace was beyond what I ever thought possible for judgmental cruelty.

What I didn't post is that my greatest challenge and fear now is my daughter not only losing her husband but her mother also. I wrote only a fraction of what goes on here and only to tell of why I liked being here and you turned it around as a means of my "excusing something I've done or a looking for sympathy'.

To drag what I said we are going through and why this place helped to be a companion to me and make it the ugliest most evil thing I've seen and even at a time like this,

"make it the ugliest most evil thing I've seen"

is still so unimaginable to me, that even after I said I would have complied pages ago and twice and said I'd leave, still such twisting of words and cuttings that I thought I'd never see from a Christian to another.

But you kept coming back to add more, no?

"such twisting of words and cuttings"

First the name calling...

[b]

Take special note of the [u]spirit and manner[/u] that permeates all this, haughtiness, pride, the ease of slight and slander ...

then the implying of witchcraft, necromancy etc.

If I could interject a personal musing, all this has me wondering and collectively comparing it to a great deal of this present age of Christendom; Prophecy as it is so dis-appropriated and defined, this present atmosphere of eschatology and emphasis, the future casting and conspiracy theories ... It is a question, not a conclusion; Could not this be a form of necromancy, I mean to say a derivative, the [i]want[/i] of knowing the future;

How could you see all these things with such diabolical evil in them, when that was never my intent or 'source' ?

[i]"Why do you see all these things with such diabolical evil in them, when that was never my intent or 'source' ?[/i]

Similarly;

I need to ask you again --- how could you see such diabolically demonic evils in my explaining why I appreciated being here for the time that I could be ?

You made this choice to accuse in public about things you have no idea about.

Every post you did toward me were judgings of my heart in All things and not just simple "stop it's"

[b]

"It's not personal - it is [i]spiritual[/i]"

"It is in this instance and a few others that I stated what I did and believe it is also present in your reactions, your defending and slights that prove the matter to be so. But lest you be mistaken this does not spell the whole person, but these incidents and does not speak to the whole character or what you may think I am thinking."

In this instance, this matter, these words that were spoken far earlier, this "ball" not the man, not the woman, not any of these imaginations. This whole thing has to do with [i]notions[/i] and challenging them on those grounds, not emotions nor personal accompaniments.

Every post you wrote at me had innuendos and implications of demonic things

WHY do you see Demonic where there is only one Christian sitting here trying to be just that, as best as I can at this juncture ?

? No ... pride?

You have hurled more accusations at me than I've ever hurled in my lifetime at another Christian ..... CAN'T YOU SEE THAT ?

"Demonic" "evil" ...

That is all I can say or ask you Mike and why I could only get out those words above to you last nite. You chose to do this on a thread .... so now I must ask you to give an account of all that you have posted to me now on this thread.

In Christ and as part of His Body, I have the right to ask -- Why you have posted every single word that you have at me and to give an account for such allegations in where you have judged ruthlessly & without any conscience at all ...

And I will now ask you to consider all the accusations you have made for the sake of all here and that this is precisely the point of this matter of not taking or making things personal. I am not offended in the least, nor angry nor any other thing.

and then go on to post articles, as if you have not been wrong in anyway here

could but wish I had gone about this far differently, it was a mistake in the words chosen at points ...

At any rate the whole thing is lamentable, I regret it.

Our reactions spell us far more than we know and often are reluctant to admit to. Should we not rather confess and repent of them than to hide and defend ourselves?

I confess. I fall far short ... the spiritual is everything and the only thing eternally lasting.

This whole thing is being completely blown out of proportion and I accept my fault for likely creating more of it than I intended.

most especially now with these last two posts, being added to the accusations of "demonic" or "heart intents" and with these implications of 'mysteries' you've thrown out of "histories" (that most all have here). Why are those here only seen as black or white here ---- why such extremes in judgments ? These posts you have done on this thread are very bazarre in nature but if this style of yours is being viewed as "normal" on this forum, I cannot see how any of this will prosper in His Hands. This treatment was not Biblical in the slightest sense of the Word. Before GOD.

I will not respond back to anything else here for reasons that I choose and are not of anybodies business, nor of accusation, nor assumption, insinuation or any other evil imagination, carnal, earthly or fleshly thing.

Forgive me at the last for the poor handling but do not forgive me for what I had to do.

Hi rookie...

I don't believe the particular article that I posted can be considered accusation. I agree that there is indeed speculation.

From the very beginning of the occupation of Iraq the intent of the U.S. was made clear by the evidence of what they hoped for. The effort to build permantent military bases in strategic areas of Iraq began with this occupation.

Imagine if I just read an article about a fishing boat that sank off the shore of Alaska. The boat was hit by a "huge mass" that was swimming just below the surface. As it was quickly coming up for air, it hit the boat and lifted it out of the water. As the fishing boat crashed back to the water, it was ripped in half. The men hurried into the escape dingies just as they saw what looked like the tip of a dark tail fin dip into the water.

Could the fishing boat captain report to the news accurately? This might have been a whale -- or a submarine. Only by truly researching the facts could a proper determination be made.

This is similar to the sort of logic that needs to be considered in the statements within our threads. Professors are often the most eager to "influence opinion" by the method in which they introduce fact. There are some professors who wish to "convert" students into their "doctrinal camp" by offering selective details and commentary on the subject. Politicians are typically, of course, the most notorious in offering such selective rhetoric. The most subtle of such rhetoric comes from the media. Instead of reporting the news, they are often guilty of providing an "interpretation" of the news.

As believers, we should be much more careful about distinguishing between what is "fact" and an interpreted conclusion about the "fact." For instance:

Have you found that the U.S. has built, I think 14 major military bases in Iraq? And that most of the money spent in Iraq on reconstruction has been spent on building these bases?

According to my Uncle (presently contracted in Iraq by the Army Corp of Engineers), these bases are not expensive facilities like permanent US bases. Rather, they are similar to the makeshift long-term bases created in Japan and Korea following World War II and the Korean conflict. In fact, did you know that the United States currently has 32 military bases in South Korea? Should we assume that the rationale is to conduct war operations against North Korea? Of course not! These bases have existed for over 50 years -- and we have not been at war with the North Koreans since the 1953 ceasefire. Rather, those bases exist to prevent further hostilities.

Rookie, I hope that you don't think that I am writing this because of any sort of personal or political motivation. As believers, I believe that we should be prepared to give an answer to all men who ask of us. However, we should be able to provide an answer without flawed reasoning. When "contending for the faith" (or for a position), we should be careful to not fall into "circular reasoning," "begging the question," "many questions" or "straw men" fallacies.

Example of flawed reasoning:

The United States invaded Iraq. Iraq is the world's sixth largest oil producer. President Bush, his father and Vice President Cheney were involved in the oil industry. The President has many friends in the oil industry. THEREFORE, this war was fought so America could have control of Iraqi oil.

The United States invaded Cuba. President Bush owned the Texas Rangers professional baseball team. His father played baseball in college. Many great baseball players come from Cuba. Vice President Cheney likes Cuban cigars. Both the President and Vice President have friends in professional baseball and who enjoy cuban cigars. THEREFORE the war with Cuba was fought over baseball players and cigars.

Well, I think that I've said far more than I ought. I pray that you didn't take this personally. I very much enjoy reading your posts and threads. I've been on SermonIndex for several years, and I tend to read much more than comment. This post is not meant to confront, rather to encourage factfinding. As GrannieAnnie said, factual documentation is essential for such a discussion. The conclusions about such evidence, however, may differ accordingly.

As believers, I feel that the manner of our posts should reflect this. Regardless of the intent of our posts, we should remember that our purpose is to point to truth and not necessarily our perspective about that truth (unless we differentiate between the two). This should be true regardless if the information we post is "earthly" in nature or of a far more "important" and spiritual reason.

:-)

By the way, it is interesting that you mentioned Mohammed Mossadegh of Iran. My graduate thesis was entitled "[i]Doomed to Failure: Examining the Decision Making Process of the Carter Administration during the Iran Hostage Crisis[/i]." I used Graham Allison's [i]Essence of Decision[/i] as the framework for my study. I performed extensive research (traveling to the Carter and Reagan Presidential Libraries and to the National Archives -- and even interviewing major players in the issue [including President Carter]). While I don't believe that the United States has ever actually "overthrown" any actual democratically elected leaders, the CIA did implement "Operation Ajax" to influence the people of Iran against Mossadegh (reportedly due to his socialist tendencies, links to the Soviet Union and plan to nationalize the oil industry of Iran and align its trade with the Soviets during the bipolar world days of the Cold War).

Brother Christopher wrote:

Well, I think that I've said far more than I ought. I pray that you didn't take this personally.

Fellowship in the Lord requires that iron sharpen iron. You are right to share your concerns of the conclusions that I often make.

According to my Uncle (presently contracted in Iraq by the Army Corp of Engineers), these bases are not expensive facilities like permanent US bases. Rather, they are similar to the makeshift long-term bases created in Japan and Korea following World War II and the Korean conflict. In fact, did you know that the United States currently has 32 military bases in South Korea? Should we assume that the rationale is to conduct war operations against North Korea? Of course not! These bases have existed for over 50 years -- and we have not been at war with the North Koreans since the 1953 ceasefire. Rather, those bases exist to prevent further hostilities.

I would suggest that the original reason for establishing 32 bases in the DMZ of Korea was adoped in accordance to the cold war strategy of encapsulating further growth of Communism. And as you have pointed out these bases still exist today, 54 years after the fact. My assertion is that likewise, we will see a similar attempt to establish long term bases in Iraq to project our pressence militarily in a oil rich region of the world.

We as a country are being pressed by the Saudi government to remove our troops that have been there since Dessert Storm of the 1990's. The Saudi king and princes are sensing a growing tide of potential unrest amongst it's governed. So the U.S. has to find another more centrally located base of operation to check both Russia and China for domination of the current world's energy region.

Z. Breszynshy ? wrote a book in 1997 highlighting the importance of gaining control of central Asia as a means of assuring continued U.S. economic world dominance. If we do not succeed in this endeavor we will be at the mercy of both Russia and China in the near future.

I performed extensive research (traveling to the Carter and Reagan Presidential Libraries and to the National Archives -- and even interviewing major players in the issue [including President Carter]). While I don't believe that the United States has ever actually "overthrown" any actual democratically elected leaders, the CIA did implement "Operation Ajax" to influence the people of Iran against Mossadegh (reportedly due to his socialist tendencies, links to the Soviet Union and plan to nationalize the oil industry of Iran and align its trade with the Soviets during the bipolar world days of the Cold War).

Wasn't Teddy Roosevelt's grandson the administrator of Operation Ajax? Likewise the motive then, is as it is now. The trend we see taking place now of many countries nationalizing their natural resources, is a direct threat to both British and U. S. economic power.

Secondly, just my opinion, I believe that President Jimmy Carter was the last believer to hold the Office of the President.

In your studies, such as the one you pointed to of Iran, have you seen the "linkage" between the pursuit of oil and "operations" conducted to enhance the U.S. position in the world according to energy?

Side note, not many know that the "charge" of the CIA it to protect and project U.S. economic interests in the world.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

Hi rookie...

Wasn't Teddy Roosevelt's grandson the administrator of Operation Ajax? Likewise the motive then, is as it is now. The trend we see taking place now of many countries nationalizing their natural resources, is a direct threat to both British and U. S. economic power.

Three years ago, [i]The Economist[/i] reported the effects that Mexico's nationalization had upon the world economy -- including the resultant rise in oil prices worldwide due to illegally "flooding the market" for quick profit. However, this has not been a perceived "direct threat" to US or UK interests. A "direct threat" would be using the profits of oil to fund terrorist activities against the nation. During the Cold War, it was determined by the CIA that Mossadegh could tip the balance toward Communist aggression in the Middle East. Interestingly, the Soviet Union's power and authority grew until it bordered both Iran and Afghanistan (and then invaded Afghanistan in 1980). Some analysts have suggested that Operation Ajax, right or wrong, resulted in a stoppage of any further communist aggression in the region.

Secondly, just my opinion, I believe that President Jimmy Carter was the last believer to hold the Office of the President.

In your studies, such as the one you pointed to of Iran, have you seen the "linkage" between the pursuit of oil and "operations" conducted to enhance the U.S. position in the world according to energy?

Rookie, I enjoy these conversations, even if they might be straying just a bit from the purpose of the forums. To my recollection, I have never begun a political thread here, but commented on the public claims and remarks of others. By doing so, I only mean to provide a counter argument to those that I feel might be straying into the realm of speculation or opinion and outside of plain fact. It is difficult to find the "spirituality" in such a conversation, although the spiritual realm tends to inundate the affairs of this natural world. I certainly believe that there are "signs of the times" occurring around us. However, we need to be careful to misinterpret those natural and worldly events in order to validate those things we perceive to be truth.

I actually have to run to the store and purchase some cleaning products. We are getting ready to move into our "new" home, and we need to get to cleaning. Please remember us in your prayers as we "fight the good fight" against some earthly dirt, dust, cobwebs and roaches! With God's help, we will be victorious and have a clean home by tonight!

:-)

Bro Jeff you wrote;
"I am no expert. However, for years I have sought to understand the reasons behind why my father, a world war 2 vet, a Korean Conflict POW, a steel worker, lost his job because of foreign economic forces. [b]While everyone else was watching football games or spending time at the mall I would read all kinds of material related to political-economics.[/b] Before Christ, I was always searching for the reason why my father's American dream was taken away from him."

--- Bro in the highlighted statement you made (before you came to Christ) it in itself made you a potentially dangerous man to our government, in that one of the reasons professional sports was first sponsered by our government for men was to keep us pre-occupied with things much more mindless than keeping up with what our government is doing and taking them to task ... Now to be continued by our Lord in these same pursuits (after coming to Christ) makes you an even more dangerous man to satan because now you see the power and motivation behind all this darkness surrounding us, and the unction won't let you keep quiet about it ...

Is it any wonder that the enemy has ratcheted up our "amusements" to a point that we don't really muse on to much else even in the natural, let alone the super-natural ... i was just thinking the other day just how far (especially evident in our children) the enemy has removed our once natural inclination to be fascinated by God's creation, to that of being fixated on screens, with our children playing horribly horrific games spawned straight from the power of the wicked one ... Give most American kids a choice of examining the heart of a flower thru a magnifying glass, or playing and X-Box and guess which one they'll choose ...

i too am one of those guys (i believe groomed of God to be so) whose main interests lie in the whys, hows and wherefores of what's really going on in our world, government, and most important we The Church ... i'm like a fanatical football fan, and a compulsive shopper combined, except my fanaticim and compulsions are primarily geared toward knowing more of and from Him! - and that makes one, especially in this day and time, most peculiar ...

Pastor Hagee asked in one of His sermons what it was that irratated me the most ... i thought about it for a while, then had to ask Holy Spirit to reveal it to me .... A little while later He did, and it's this ... It irritates me to no end the total disregard, dishonor and disrespect we created (saved and unsaved) show to our almighty and beloved Creator, and because of that if it is His will i hope He will use me mightily towards the ultimate sinking of satan's battleship!!!

Blessings in Chist Jesus! ---

Bro ccchhhrrriiisss you wrote;
"Rookie, I hope that you don't think that I am writing this because of any sort of personal or political motivation. As believers, I believe that we should be prepared to give an answer to all men who ask of us. However, we should be able to provide an answer without flawed reasoning. When "contending for the faith" (or for a position), we should be careful to not fall into "circular reasoning," "begging the question," "many questions" or "straw men" fallacies."

Then Bro Rookie wrote;
"Fellowship in the Lord requires that iron sharpen iron."

--- i just want to add my hearty amen to both posts, and to again thank God for this SI Forum in which He is not only sharpening and honing me to more precise info and answers, but also like a TIMEX He's also grooming me to be able to take a licking and keep on ticking (at the crucifying of self) in the LOVE of Jesus Christ toward my fellow brothers and sisters ...

SI Forum is a great place to be trained to God's service (on Mars Hill and/or the Temple - and before government officials i might add :-D ). ---

This article is offered in support of the initial article that began this thread...

updated 11:31 p.m. EDT, Sun August 5, 2007

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. forces will probably be in Iraq for a "protracted period" to support the country's year-old government, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Sunday.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates says the surge of U.S. forces in Iraq appears to be paying dividends militarily.

"We anticipate trying to work out with the Iraqi government an arrangement whereby there would be a residual presence of U.S. forces at some fraction of the current level that would be a stabilizing and supporting force in Iraq for some protracted period of time," he told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer."

"I think that that's generally the view of almost anybody who is looking at this, that some kind of residual force for some period of time will be required beyond when we begin a drawdown."

Last Wednesday, Lt. Gen. Raymond Odierno, commanding general of the Multi-National Corps-Iraq, predicted that U.S. forces would be needed in Iraq "for a few more years."...

end of article...

Just an ongoing observation

In Christ
Jeff

This article offers support of the initial article...

Des Moines, Iowa

Even as they call for an end to the war and pledge to bring the troops home, the Democratic presidential candidates are setting out positions that could leave the United States engaged in Iraq for years.

Former Sen. John Edwards would keep troups in the country to intervene in an Iraqi genocide and be prepared for military action if violence spills into other countries.

Sen. Hillary Clinton would leave residual forces to fight terrorism and to stabilize the Kurdish region. And Sen. Barack Obama woul leave a military presence of as-yet unspecified size in Iraq to provide security for American personnel, fight terrorism and train Iraqis.

These positions and those of some rivals suggest that the Democratic bumper-sticker message of a quick end to the conflict--however much it appeals to primary voters--oversimplifies the problems likely to be inherited by the next president. Anti-war activists have raised little challenge to such postions by Democrats. ....

just another piece of the puzzle...

In Christ
Jeff

Here is an update on the first article of this thread...

The U.S. has now begun to build an additional military base on the Iraq/Iran border.

Secondly, according to the new book out on President Bush, in this book, the President states something to the effect...hopes that things settle down enough in Iraq by the end of his term, so that the U.S. can remain in Iraq for some time to come.

In Christ
Jeff

Here is another article concerning the first article of this thread...

BBC 9/12/2007

During the early hours of last Thursday morning, a number of Israeli jets appear to have entered Syrian air-space from the Mediterranean Sea, possibly penetrating deep into the country.

Later unidentified drop tanks, which may have contained fuel for the planes, were found on Turkish soil near the Syrian border, indicating perhaps the Israeli jets' exit route.

The Syrian authorities are livid. They say that the aircraft were driven off but that they fired their weaponry into a deserted area.

The implication is that the planes effectively dumped their munitions so better to manoeuvre during their escape.

The Syrian government has briefed Western diplomats and complained to the United Nations.

But there have been no images of the empty countryside where the weapons are alleged to have landed.

Israeli sources are saying nothing.

Long-standing contacts are uncharacteristically silent, noting only that Israel's military censorship on this subject is as tight as they can ever remember.

Mood of satisfaction

From Washington has come some partial illumination of the shadows.

US officials indicate that at least one target in northern Syria was hit and despite the Israeli silence there does seem to be a perceptible mood of satisfaction in Israel; a sense that what they wanted to achieve was carried out.

So what actually went on during the early hours of Thursday morning? Why were Israeli jets over Syria at all?

And if they indeed released weapons, what were they firing at?

Initially experts suggested that this might simply have been an over-flight to trigger air defence radars and gather electronic intelligence.

Such a probe might be linked to new air defence missiles reportedly supplied to Syria by the Russians.

Other pundits wondered if a potential strike path to Iran was being tested out; though a southern route here into US-controlled Iraqi air-space would be more logical.

And neither option would explain why such aircraft might be armed with air to ground weapons.

North Korea link

As far as likely targets of any attack go there are two broad suggestions.

One, cited by the New York Times newspaper quoting a US source, suggests that the attack was in some way linked to North Korea.

The former US ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, in a recent article in the Wall Street Journal, raised the possibility that Syria is sheltering technology or materials relating to North Korea's nuclear programme.

When I spoke to Mr Bolton in London just the other day he strongly defended this thesis though he would not be drawn on the reliability of his sources.

Another suggestion is that maybe a missile store or factory with weaponry heading to Hezbollah in Lebanon was hit.

Israel has long complained that the Damascus government is at the very least turning a blind eye to such weapons supplies coming from Iran.

Maybe Israel decided to send the Syrian government a message that it would understand.

Muted response

What is intriguing is that the response of both the Syrian and Israeli governments has been muted - in the Israeli case largely mute.

The Syrians, while angry, are clearly embarrassed that something may have occurred that they failed to prevent.

Israel and Syria remain technically at war

Israel's deterrent capacity, weakened by the summer 2006 war in Lebanon, is partially restored.

But an explanation too is needed for Israel's silence.

Maybe it does not want to over-play its hand.

This apparent raid comes after a summer of tensions between the two countries which some feared might lead to open warfare.

During the past few weeks tensions have markedly declined.

Indeed prior to the bombing mission, if that is what it was, Israel reportedly sent messages to Syria via an intermediary, indicating that it was scaling down its forces on the Golan Heights.

Was this an effort to ensure that this "raid" was not interpreted by the Syrians as a prelude to a large-scale Israeli attack?

There are still more questions than answers in this affair. More information is slowly seeping out.

But in many ways it is remarkable that in an age of instant news and the worldwide web spreading information almost at the speed of light, there can still be episodes like this that remain shrouded in so many layers of mystery.

The Bush administration "has just about had it with Iran," said one foreign diplomat. "They tried the diplomatic process. China is now obstructing them at the U.N. Security Council and the Russians are tucking themselves behind them.

"The Germans are wobbling …There are a number of people in the administration who do not want their legacy to be leaving behind an Iran that is nuclear armed,

Is. 30:28 \tHis breath is like an overflowing stream,
\tWhich reaches up to the neck,
\tTo sift the nations with the sieve of futility;
\tAnd there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people,
\tCausing them to err.

In Christ
jeff

According to the US Defense Intelligence Agency, which released a study on thermobaric weapons in 1993, "The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique--and unpleasant.... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs.

I just saw in the news of the Russians exploding a "vacuum bomb" which they labeled "The Daddy of all Bombs." They took pride in naming this bomb after the U.S. named it's new bomb "The Mother of all Bombs."

In the book of Daniel we find that one day a king will arise to worship the god of fortresses...

Dan 11:36
"Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 "He shall regard neither the God[fn10] of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.
Dan 11:38 "But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 "Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.

It seems with each nation's boasting of its own power through technology we are entering into a time where the "god of fortresses" will be worshipped.

I remember the boasting of the time of "Shock and Ah." I remember a time of a king landing on an floating fortress boasting of victory.

I now see that this spirit is playing out in many other nations as well...

In Christ
Jeff

HE_Reigns wrote:

As the vision spread before my eyes, and I viewed the widespread desolation brought about by the terrific explosions, I could not help thinking, "While the defenders of our nation have quibbled over what means of defense to use, and neglected the only true means of defense, faith and dependence upon the true and living God, the thing which she greatly feared has come unto her!" How true it has proven that Psalm 127:1, "Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it: except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."

Then as the noise of battle subsided, to my ears came this quotation, "Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; (2) A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. (3) A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. (4) The appearance of them is as the apearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. (5) Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they lead, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. (6) Before their face the people shall be much pained; all faces shall gather blackness. (7) They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: (8) neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. (9)_ They shall run to and from in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. (10) The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. (Joel 2:1-10)

Then the voice was still. The earth, too, was silent, with the silence of death.

And then to my ears came another sound, a sound of distant singing. It was the sweetest music I had ever heard. There was joyful shouting, and sounds of happy laughter. Immediately, I knew it was the rejoicing fo the saints of God. I looked, and there, high in the heavens above the smoke and poisonous gases, above the noise of battle, I saw a huge mountain. It seemed to be of solid rock, and I knew at once that this was the Mountain of the Lord. The sounds of music and rejoicing were coming form a cleft, high up in the side of the rock mountain.

It was the saints of God who were doing the rejoicing. It was God's own people who were singing and dancing and shouting with joy, safe from all the harm which had come upon the earth, for they hidden away in the cleft of the rock. There in the cleft, they were shut in, protected by a great, giant hand which reached out of the heavens and which was none other than the hand of God, shutting them in, until the storm be overpassed.

Thank you Brother for this vision.

If all who are sitting on the fence and those who are depending on the sword for their protection would read this and see that there will be no second chance. If you are not totally trusting in the Lord for everything you will be among the damned and will not be covered by His hand of protection.
Ready or not this is coming and what a horrible day it will be for those who refuse to watch.

In His Love
pastorfrin

brethren in Christ, Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you know, i read with much interest the vision of bro Allen and it is quite similar to one which our Lord gave me last wednesday and then showed to me again yesterday. it is as follows:

Our Lord showed me the vision He showed me on Wednesday again with some more detail to it. It was as follows:

i saw a vision today concerning what shall befall America within the next 100+ days. i saw Lady Liberty atop her perch and dressed in her long robe which seemed to have some dirt on it, not so much that it was obvious however, but more subtle. She looked quite majestic there. Next to her was a cherub, the same who is over the land of America. He was huge and fearsome and he looked angry. He lifted her skirts to expose her, she had what looked like dried menstrual blood all over her legs and the underside of the robe she had on. The angel then took the plaque out of her left hand and dashed it to the ground. He then knocked her crown off her head and took the torch from her right hand and cast it away. She seemed puzzled at first and then the angel began to strike her with what looked like a rod and she cried out in pain but not repentance. He tore off her robe and left her naked for all to see. After a time he stopped and picked up a goblet filled with blood. The Goblet seemed bigger than the 2 of them but the angel held it in one hand and tried to make her drink from it but she would not. The blood was of those slain for the expansion of this land, the blood of the Native American, the blood of the African slave, the blood of those Chinese who were too enslaved, the blood of the 50 million plus aborted babies, and those slain without cause. Then i saw faces in the blood; the faces of those the blood belonged to, the black slaves, the Native Americans, the Asians, the babies. All the faces looked mournful and were weeping and crying out to God. Then i saw a map of the land and our of the ground came moans and groans of anguish, the blood of the ones slain for expansion and other selfish things cries out to God bitterly for vengeance. We shall soon see this vengeance exacted on us. She wouldn’t drink of the cup. The angel then picked her up and threw her into the cup and she gulped down much blood and began to drown. Eventually there was no life left in her and she died in that cup. Then i saw what looked like a mighty hand reach into the cup and pull out the body and lay it on the ground. Some time passed and nothing happened and then i saw what looked like Fire from Heaven poured out on the body and it began to burn and it shrunk quite a bit to what seemed like an eighth or so the previous size. What was left had no form i can describe but it was a beautiful thing. It looked like gold, mixed with silver in colour in what looked like swirls of each and in that alloy were many precious stones of various kinds. i looked at it for a time and then i saw 2 Mighty Hands Lovingly pick up this object and start to mold it into the shape of a person. When this was complete, the statuette was placed where Lady Liberty had been and it shone with His Brightness, a Testament to His Hands.

The meaning of the vision is this. Lady Liberty represents our nation America and the Church in America. God will not spare the Church the Judgment which is due her for contributing to the state of America as we know it by condoning wickedness in silence and even openly so and even practicing wickedness. The robe is indicative of her works. The subtle dirt on it speaks of iniquities which are present but not acknowledged, or thought of as not being serious enough to warrant attention. That the angel of the Lord lifted her skirts to expose the filth beneath speaks to how God has been and will continue to expose our wickedness for all to see that underneath the façade of the robe lies filth in desperate need of cleansing by the Blood of Jesus. The tablet has the date of American independence on it, that it was dashed to the ground speaks of a horrible bondage which is coming. The torch which she holds speaks of light which is something people are drawn to. America leads the world in many respects and so many of the worlds nations follow us, some nations have adopted some good things from us but alas as surely as much good has gone from these shores for men to follow, so has much wickedness which the world has followed after. The torch being cast down speaks of the end of our supremacy in this regard. The torch has been getting dimmer by the year with nations bucking against our wishes. The crown speaks also of authority of this kind and that it was knocked off her head speaks of the end of our influence over the world. That the angel began by tearing off her robe to expose her nakedness speaks to the exposure of our iniquities which have been hidden before the world. The striking is the Judgment of God upon us and that she didn’t cry out in repentance speaks of our blindness to our sins and hardness of heart to repent. Her surprise at her plight speaks to the same thing. The goblet filled with blood speaks of our iniquities, murders, exploitations, injustices and all for which we have not repented as a nation and for which we shall pay. That the goblet was of such size as to be big enough to drown her in speaks to the magnitude of our sin, that it is symbolized by blood speaks of its severity before God for He Hates the shedding of blood. That Lady Liberty wouldn’t drink of the cup speaks of our refusal to acknowledge these things as iniquities and repent. When the angel of our Lord threw her into that goblet that spoke of our being plunged into a time wherein this sins will overwhelm us and consume the nation and kill it. The Hand i saw which lifted her out of this goblet was that of God showing Mercy and saving us out of that madness and making things stable for a time. Then the Fire which came from Heaven is a Purifying Fire for His Church which comes through persecution. The persecution will be present during the time in which chaos will sweep the land also. However when the fire subsides and there is little of the original statue left, this speaks to the falling away of many due to the suffering for many will be unable to bear it because they are not rooted in God. For these, the Faith is a means to an end whether they are deliberate about it or ignorant and refuse to repent and be Saved out of that wickedness. What was left which was like unto Gold and Silver with Precious Stones speaks to what God desires His Church to be, Pure and Beautiful, Shining His Light to the world. That God’s Hands formed that mass into a person speaks to God Perfecting the Church into the Image of Jesus and placing it on a place where all could see it. Indeed what was put in that place where Lady Liberty once stood was something far more Beautiful than what was there before and it shone more brightly but more than that it was what God Himself wanted and fashioned by His own Hand. AMEN.

i saw also a Lowe’s hardware store in which the workers were frantically trying to close the store to keep the people out. i wasn’t sure why until after the doors were locked. A mob of people broke the doors and then trampled over the poor workers and looted the store. This is what we shall be reduced to, pillagers and robbers when the economy collapses. God help us. AMEN.

what our Lord showed me concerning the coming Judgment on America is here on this thread:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12628&forum=35&19]Prophetic Credentials 3[/url]

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

i saw also a Lowe’s hardware store in which the workers were frantically trying to close the store to keep the people out. i wasn’t sure why until after the doors were locked. A mob of people broke the doors and then trampled over the poor workers and looted the store. This is what we shall be reduced to, pillagers and robbers when the economy collapses. God help us. AMEN.

THE FLIGHT INTO REAL VALUES
by J. R. Nyquist

It is lack of honesty and intellectual integrity that now accelerates America’s demise. Americans ought to know better. We ought to be adults who understand that falsifying reality won’t work. The enemies of the United States have watched and waited for a fatal flaw to emerge. And now, at long last, the corruption of the American character through too many decades of prosperity has opened the way. The people of the United States have lost sight of the truth. They have forgotten that the world is underpinned by economic hardship and war. The United States came to think of itself as exempt from this underpinning. But no nation is exempt. No nation can escape the grim realities of this world or the severe consequences of downplaying and dismissing these realities. Economic hardship and war are coming to America. 

We must not suffer a recession, say the Americans. We cannot support a war, even in the defense of our own long-term interests because our country has no interests worth dying for. Let the dollar fall. Let our enemies take the oil fields. What will the world do against us? They must export to us, they must send oil to us; they must eat our bonds, our treasury notes, our worthless paper currency. This is how it has always been. This is how it must always be. If the Russians are deploying bombers and making dry runs at the American homeland, we do not care. Let them play their silly war games. We aren’t alarmed. If British intelligence has detected Chinese preparations for a surprise attack against the U.S. Navy, let us pronounce a decided “HO HUM” and go about our business. Let us shop until we drop. Let us watch cable television until the rest of the world sinks out of sight. Why should we contemplate the boozy Russian or the desperate Chinese? Why should the distant hovel interest us? We are fat from eating, and our eyes are glazed from entertainment. 

But trouble comes. The enemy appears. The international position of trust, once held by the United States, is gradually lost through a series of abuses. Self-deluded and ignorant men have taken the helm, and they have set intellectual integrity aside. At long last the United States attempts to stave off a second Great Depression by yet another round of credit inflation. Only this time it isn’t going to work. America’s enemies have been preparing. Their propaganda machine has succeeded, and their guerrilla tactics in the Middle East have had a demoralizing impact. The American side grows weaker day to day. 

The United States imports much of what it needs from other countries, including oil and natural gas. In exchange, the Americans now export inflation. This is an abuse, a patent fraud, and the world begins to lose its patience. Facing the prospect of deflation, the prospect of economic meltdown, the financial managers of America have decided to re-inflate. They have decided to hurt all those who hold dollars abroad. In doing so, they have invited a counter-attack. They have invited the dollar’s total destruction. Without realizing the seriousness of their move, they have opened the way to global economic chaos and open warfare. The enemies of the United States now what is happening. They have waited long and patiently, sharpening their weapons. The Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Syrians, North Koreans, etc. are in it together. Add to these the Communists in Cuba and Venezuela. And do not forget America’s domestic malcontents. Revolution is not simply a slogan. It is the essence of today’s anti-American religion. 

The United States once held an international position of trust, and that trust has been abused. We say to ourselves that another drop in interest rates and we’ll avoid a recession. We’ll avoid the pain we’re due to suffer. Many decades ago the great economist, Ludwig von Mises, noted that a “drop in interest rates falsifies the businessman’s calculation.” The change in rates makes “some projects appear profitable and realizable which a correct calculation, based on an interest rate not manipulated by credit expansion, would have shown as unrealizable.” First there was a stock market boom, then came a real estate boom, and now we have to wonder what kind of boom we’ll see next. Perhaps it will be a “crack-up boom.” The United States has gotten away with financial abuses for a long time because the dollar is the international reserve currency. But the outside world is not stupid. They see that their investment in the dollar has resulted in a massive loss. The Chinese, Saudis, Japanese and British are losing trillions in buying power. The dollar’s decline is now accelerating, with massive consequences for all. 

If you were an enemy of the United States, wouldn’t you take advantage of this opportunity?

Economic prosperity based on the inflation of credit, said Mises, “can only last as long as the credit expansion progresses at an ever-accelerated pace. The boom comes to an end as soon as additional quantities of fiduciary media are no longer thrown upon the loan market.” In real life there are no ever-filled purses. The magic of inflation isn’t magic after all. Over time a system based on inflation is destroyed through a process of self-attrition. Inflation cannot go on forever, noted Mises. Barriers exist that will inevitably prevent a boundless credit expansion. In the case of a prolonged and outrageous expansion, in which major threats to prosperity are answered with inflation, a breakup of the entire monetary system is indicated. In the wake of a serious credit expansion, says Mises, “The banks are faced with an increased demand for loans and advances on the part of business. The entrepreneurs are prepared to borrow money at higher gross rates of interest. They go on borrowing in spite of the fact that banks charge more interest.” Businessmen become addicted to credit, and the addiction leads to destructive behaviors. The banks find themselves in a credit crunch, and the only way to avoid real pain is a further injection of the original narcotic. Like a drug addict, the financial system must get another dose of lower interest rates. According to Mises, “They fail to see that in injecting more and more fiduciary media into the market they are in fact kindling the boom. It is the continuous increase in the supply of the fiduciary media that produces, feeds, and accelerates the boom.” And this eventually leads to what Mises calls a “crack-up boom.” As he further explained, “The credit expansion boom is built on the sands of banknotes and deposits. It must collapse.”

If the banks become frightened, the whole thing collapses in deflation. If the boom is pumped endlessly, the end must nonetheless come, said Mises, because any attempt to substitute additional fiduciary media for nonexistent capital goods is doomed to failure. “If the credit expansion is not stopped in time, the boom turns into the crack-up boom; the flight into real values begins, and the whole monetary system founders.” Think of what he is saying: The flight into real values cannot be prevented. Reality intrudes on the dreamer and his eyes are opened. According to Mises, “As soon as the afflux of additional fiduciary media comes to an end, the airy castle of the boom collapses. The entrepreneurs must restrict their activities because they lack the funds for their continuation on the exaggerated scale. Prices drop suddenly because these distressed firms try to obtain cash by throwing inventories on the market dirt cheap. Factories are closed, the continuation of construction projects in progress is halted, workers are discharged.” 

The option of exporting inflation to a world that must sell goods to the American market is almost at an end. The ongoing credit inflation cannot continue forever because the world will not go along. “The final outcome of the credit expansion,” noted Mises, “is general impoverishment.” It is impossible for one nation – however powerful or important – to avoid the general impoverishment of all. In the present case, the disaster is amplified by America’s role in maintaining a peaceful international order. Without American power, the North Koreans would attack South Korea, China would invade Taiwan, Russia would flood into Europe, and the international trading system that supports over six billion people would barely support three billion. 

We are on the brink. A once decent system, turned to dishonest practice, faces a day of judgment. Billions of lives are in danger. The flight into real values is about to begin. An age of blood and iron follows. 

end of article...

In Christ
Jeff

QUOTE:
"Americans ought to know better. We ought to be adults who understand that falsifying reality won’t work."

--- i heard this like so ...

"American Christians ought to know better. We ought to be the spiritually mature who understand that twisting scripture to selfish benefit won’t work."

Of bro Jeff's post i hear the consequences of ...

Rev.3
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Of bro Ironman's post i hear His consolation ...

Rev. 3
[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

What times these are we live in ...

This is an interview of Ron Paul asking Fed Chairmen Bernanke about the recent interest rate cut...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeHWW5gbc0w

As a note, the actual consumer price index is not increasing a 2% as Bernanke testified here. Using the old method of evaluation of Price inflation the index is increasing at a rate above 10%. The U.S. dollar is diminishing in value almost daily. When hard times come, people often are led to wars which are created to distract and difuse the sense of injustice that exists within a nation. Hitler took Germany during a time of hyperinflation. People look to men as savior...

In Christ
Jeff

Alan Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil

Graham Paterson
Greenspan on the 'irresponsible' Bush

AMERICA’s elder statesman of finance, Alan Greenspan, has shaken the White House by declaring that the prime motive for the war in Iraq was oil.

In his long-awaited memoir, to be published tomorrow, Greenspan, a Republican whose 18-year tenure as head of the US Federal Reserve was widely admired, will also deliver a stinging critique of President George W Bush’s economic policies.

However, it is his view on the motive for the 2003 Iraq invasion that is likely to provoke the most controversy. “I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil,” he says.

Fed veteran Greenspan lambasts George W Bush on economy

Former chairman of the Federal Reserve critical of President’s economic competence in his memoir published tomorrow

Background
Power, not oil, Mr Greenspan
Greenspan on US Presidents, the economy and Iraq
Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil
Greenspan, 81, is understood to believe that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the security of oil supplies in the Middle East.

Britain and America have always insisted the war had nothing to do with oil. Bush said the aim was to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction and end Saddam’s support for terrorism.

end of article...

Now that President Bush is a no longer a 'player' in this end game, the powers that be are beginning to set the stage for the next move in this chess game...

The truth is beginning to come out...but is this the beginning of a new propaganda campaign in an attempt to change public opinion of the war? With the price of oil now over 80 dollars a barrel, it seems, that it might now be politically expedient to tell the truth to the American people. You see we all need oil to maintain our lavish lifestyles don't we?

In Christ
Jeff

CONFESSIONS OF AN "EX" PEAK OIL BELIEVER
by F. William Engdahl
September 25, 2007

The good news is that panic scenarios about the world running out of oil anytime soon are wrong. The bad news is that the price of oil is going to continue to rise. Peak Oil is not our problem. Politics is. Big Oil wants to sustain high oil prices. Dick Cheney and friends are all too willing to assist.

On a personal note, I’ve researched questions of petroleum, since the first oil shocks of the 1970’s. I was intrigued in 2003 with something called Peak Oil theory. It seemed to explain the otherwise inexplicable decision by Washington to risk all in a military move on Iraq.

Peak Oil advocates, led by former BP geologist Colin Campbell, and Texas banker Matt Simmons, argued that the world faced a new crisis, an end to cheap oil, or Absolute Peak Oil, perhaps by 2012, perhaps by 2007. Oil was supposedly on its last drops. They pointed to our soaring gasoline and oil prices, to the declines in output of North Sea and Alaska and other fields as proof they were right.

According to Campbell, the fact that no new North Sea-size fields had been discovered since the North Sea in the late 1960’s was proof. He reportedly managed to convince the International Energy Agency and the Swedish government. That, however, does not prove him correct.

Intellectual fossils?

The Peak Oil school rests its theory on conventional Western geology textbooks, most by American or British geologists, which claim oil is a ‘fossil fuel,’ a biological residue or detritus of either fossilized dinosaur remains or perhaps algae, hence a product in finite supply. Biological origin is central to Peak Oil theory, used to explain why oil is only found in certain parts of the world where it was geologically trapped millions of years ago. That would mean that, say, dead dinosaur remains became compressed and over tens of millions of years fossilized and trapped in underground reservoirs perhaps 4-6,000 feet below the surface of the earth. In rare cases, so goes the theory, huge amounts of biological matter should have been trapped in rock formations in the shallower ocean offshore as in the Gulf of Mexico or North Sea or Gulf of Guinea. Geology should be only about figuring out where these pockets in the layers of the earth, called reservoirs, lie within certain sedimentary basins.

An entirely alternative theory of oil formation has existed since the early 1950’s in Russia, almost unknown to the West. It claims conventional American biological origins theory is an unscientific absurdity that is un-provable. They point to the fact that western geologists have repeatedly predicted finite oil over the past century, only to then find more, lots more.

Not only has this alternative explanation of the origins of oil and gas existed in theory. The emergence of Russia and prior of the USSR as the world’s largest oil producer and natural gas producer has been based on the application of the theory in practice. This has geopolitical consequences of staggering magnitude.

Necessity: the mother of invention

In the 1950’s the Soviet Union faced ‘Iron Curtain’ isolation from the West. The Cold War was in high gear. Russia had little oil to fuel its economy. Finding sufficient oil indigenously was a national security priority of the highest order.

Scientists at the Institute of the Physics of the Earth of the Russian Academy of Sciences and the nstitute of Geological Sciences of the Ukraine Academy of Sciences began a fundamental inquiry in the late 1940’s: where does oil come from?

In 1956, Prof. Vladimir Porfir’yev announced their conclusions: ‘Crude oil and natural petroleum gas have no intrinsic connection with biological matter originating near the surface of the earth. They are primordial materials which have been erupted from great depths.’ The Soviet geologists had turned Western orthodox geology on its head. They called their theory of oil origin the ‘a-biotic’ theory—non-biological—to distinguish from the Western biological theory of origins.

If they were right, oil supply on earth would be limited only by the amount of organic hydrocarbon constituents present deep in the earth at the time of the earth’s formation. Availability of oil would depend only on technology to drill ultra-deep wells and explore into the earth’s inner regions. They also realized old fields could be revived to continue producing, so called self-replentishing fields. They argued that oil is formed deep in the earth, formed in conditions of very high temperature and very high pressure, like that required for diamonds to form. ‘Oil is a primordial material of deep origin which is transported at high pressure via ‘cold’ eruptive processes into the crust of the earth,’ Porfir’yev stated. His team dismissed the idea that oil is was biological residue of plant and animal fossil remains as a hoax designed to perpetuate the myth of limited supply.

Defying conventional geology

That radically different Russian and Ukrainian scientific approach to the discovery of oil allowed the USSR to develop huge gas and oil discoveries in regions previously judged unsuitable, according to Western geological exploration theories, for presence of oil. The new petroleum theory was used in the early 1990’s, well after the dissolution of the USSR, to drill for oil and gas in a region believed for more than forty-five years, to be geologically barren—the Dnieper-Donets Basin in the region between Russia and Ukraine.

Following their a-biotic or non-fossil theory of the deep origins of petroleum, the Russian and Ukrainian petroleum geophysicists and chemists began with a detailed analysis of the tectonic history and geological structure of the crystalline basement of the Dnieper-Donets Basin. After a tectonic and deep structural analysis of the area, they made geophysical and geochemical investigations.

A total of sixty one wells were drilled, of which thirty seven were commercially productive, an extremely impressive exploration success rate of almost sixty percent. The size of the field discovered compared with the North Slope of Alaska. By contrast, US wildcat drilling was considered successful with a ten percent success rate. Nine of ten wells are typically “dry holes.”

That Russian geophysics experience in finding oil and gas was tightly wrapped in the usual Soviet veil of state security during the Cold War era, and went largely unknown to Western geophysicists, who continued to teach fossil origins and, hence, the severe physical limits of petroleum. Slowly it begin to dawn on some strategists in and around the Pentagon well after the 2003 Iraq war, that the Russian geophysicists might be on to something of profound strategic importance.

If Russia had the scientific know-how and Western geology not, Russia possessed a strategic trump card of staggering geopolitical import. It was not surprising that Washington would go about erecting a “wall of steel”—a network of military bases and ballistic anti-missile shields around Russia, to cut her pipeline and port links to western Europe, China and the rest of Eurasia. Halford Mackinder’s worst nightmare--a cooperative convergence of mutual interests of the major states of Eurasia, born of necessity and need for oil to fuel economic growth--was emerging. Ironically, it was the blatant US grab for the vast oil riches of Iraq and, potentially, of Iran, that catalyzed closer cooperation between traditional Eurasian foes, China and Russia, and a growing realization in western Europe that their options too were narrowing.

The Peak King

Peak Oil theory is based on a 1956 paper done by the late Marion King Hubbert, a Texas geologist working for Shell Oil. He argued that oil wells produced in a bell curve manner, and once their “peak” was hit, inevitable decline followed. He predicted the United States oil production would peak in 1970. A modest man, he named the production curve he invented, Hubbert’s Curve, and the peak as Hubbert’s Peak. When US oil output began to decline in around 1970 Hubbert gained a certain fame.

The only problem was, it peaked not because of resource depletion in the US fields. It “peaked” because Shell, Mobil, Texaco and the other partners of Saudi Aramco were flooding the US market with dirt cheap Middle East imports, tariff free, at prices so low California and many Texas domestic producers could not compete and were forced to shut their wells in.

Vietnam success

While the American oil multinationals were busy controlling the easily accessible large fields of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran and other areas of cheap, abundant oil during the 1960’s, the Russians were busy testing their alternative theory. They began drilling in a supposedly barren region of Siberia. There they developed eleven major oil fields and one Giant field based on their deep ‘a-biotic’ geological estimates. They drilled into crystalline basement rock and hit black gold of a scale comparable to the Alaska North Slope.

They then went to Vietnam in the 1980s and offered to finance drilling costs to show their new geological theory worked. The Russian company Petrosov drilled in Vietnam’s White Tiger oilfield offshore into basalt rock some 17,000 feet down and extracted 6,000 barrels a day of oil to feed the energy-starved Vietnam economy. In the USSR, a-biotic-trained Russian geologists perfected their knowledge and the USSR emerged as the world’s largest oil producer by the mid-1980’s. Few in the West understood why, or bothered to ask.

Dr. J. F. Kenney is one of the only Western geophysicists who has taught and worked in Russia, studying under Vladilen Krayushkin, who developed the huge Dnieper-Donets Basin. Kenney told me in a recent interview that “alone to have produced the amount of oil to date that (Saudi Arabia’s) Ghawar field has produced would have required a cube of fossilized dinosaur detritus, assuming 100% conversion efficiency, measuring 19 miles deep, wide and high.” In short, an absurdity.

Western geologists do not bother to offer hard scientific proof of fossil origins. They merely assert as a holy truth. The Russians have produced volumes of scientific papers, most in Russian. The dominant Western journals have no interest in publishing such a revolutionary view. Careers, entire academic professions are at stake after all.

Closing the door

The 2003 arrest of Russian Mikhail Khodorkovsky, of Yukos Oil, took place just before he could sell a dominant stake in Yukos to ExxonMobil after a private meeting with Dick Cheney. Had Exxon got the stake they would have control of the world’s largest resource of geologists and engineers trained in the a-biotic techniques of deep drilling.

Since 2003 Russian scientific sharing of their knowledge has markedly lessened. Offers in the early 1990’s to share their knowledge with US and other oil geophysicists were met with cold rejection according to American geophysicists involved.

Why then the high-risk war to control Iraq? For a century US and allied Western oil giants have controlled world oil via control of Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or Nigeria. Today, as many giant fields are declining, the companies see the state-controlled oilfields of Iraq and Iran as the largest remaining base of cheap, easy oil. With the huge demand for oil from China and now India, it becomes a geopolitical imperative for the United States to take direct, military control of those Middle East reserves as fast as possible. Vice President Dick Cheney, came to the job from Halliburton Corp., the world’s largest oil geophysical services company. The only potential threat to that US control of oil just happens to lie inside Russia and with the now-state-controlled Russian energy giants. Hmmmm.

According to Kenney the Russian geophysicists used the theories of the brilliant German scientist Alfred Wegener fully 30 years before the Western geologists “discovered” Wegener in the 1960’s. In 1915 Wegener published the seminal text, The Origin of Continents and Oceans, which suggested an original unified landmass or “pangaea” more than 200 million years ago which separated into present Continents by what he called Continental Drift.

Up to the 1960’s supposed US scientists such as Dr Frank Press, White House science advisor referred to Wegener as “lunatic.” Geologists at the end of the 1960’s were forced to eat their words as Wegener offered the only interpretation that allowed them to discover the vast oil resources of the North Sea. Perhaps in some decades Western geologists will rethink their mythology of fossil origins and realize what the Russians have known since the 1950’s. In the meantime Moscow holds a massive energy trump card.

In Christ
Jeff

IRANIAN SITUATION
BOUND TO WORSEN
by J. R. Nyquist

Is the United States going to bomb Iran in an effort to prevent the Iranians from acquiring nuclear weapons? The weakness of the current administration, the unpopularity of an American preemptive strike in Europe and the Middle East, are among the factors arguing against such an event. Those who’ve shouted loudest about American imperialism and the wickedness of the current administration have nonetheless circulated rumors and scenarios in which an American strike appears imminent. We see the rumors of October 2006 repeated, with new details. Former CIA operatives mumble incoherently about attack plans, French journalists have the inside skinny, and Dick Cheney now plays the Prince of Darkness. The old tired script, with coffee stains and rewritten dialogue, is pushed forward once again. But will a U.S. attack on Iran finally materialize?

The United States is clearly making war preparations against Iran. Does this mean the Bush administration is going to attack? Not necessarily. Building a credible threat is a good negotiating strategy. Unfortunately negotiations have failed. The Iranians aren’t budging, and the smart analyst with his finger on the Islamist pulse can say without fear of contradiction that Iran isn’t giving up its nuclear ambition. The Iranian leaders are determined to make nuclear weapons. They are determined to become a nuclear threat. Europe and America cannot talk them out of it.

Add to this the fact that George Bush has become a very weak president, a very unpopular leader, and his standing around the globe is lower than it is at home. While people in many countries still admire the United States or like Americans they can be heard to say how much they hate President Bush. In the Middle East, the Iraq adventure has upset important allies like Turkey and Saudi Arabia. European allies have also expressed annoyance. The Iraq invasion introduced fresh problems to a region already flush with problem. Adding yet another straw to the camel’s back, a war with Iran would further extend the turmoil. It may not be understood, as yet, the extent to which such a widening may burst open Asia itself. This has to do with the more sinister strategies of China and Russia.

Given the weakness of the Bush presidency, and the many factors constraining the administration from an attack on Iran, the Israelis may take up the cudgel and launch their own preemptive attack. Less capable of doing a thorough job, the Israelis can nonetheless cause serious damage to Iran’s nuclear infrastructure. This is the more likely scenario as time advances and negotiations prove futile. The best Iranian strategy, in this event, would be to launch immediate strikes against U.S. ships at sea and ground forces in Iraq. By retaliating against U.S. targets the Iranians would naturally bring Israel and the United States together, on the same side, in a series of connected military engagements. The Israelis and the Americans would be seen as operating together in a nefarious plot against the Islamic Nation. This could have a powerful and electrifying effect on the entire region.

If anti-American sentiment were ignited in this fashion, if the Islamic imagination were sufficiently stirred by mixing Israeli with American forces on the same side against the same Islamic country, key states like Egypt and Saudi Arabia might not remain reliable allies. A further destabilization of the region could be expected. The Iranians might also attempt to close the Strait of Hormuz through which 40 percent of the West’s oil flows. As Iran’s supreme leader, Seyyed Ali Khamenei has stated: “If the Americans make a wrong move toward Iran, the shipment of energy will definitely face danger, and the Americans would not be able to protect energy supply in the region.”

With all the rumors of war with Iran, the question may not boil down to any specific U.S. intent to launch a preemptive strike. A war can break out without any U.S. action. The Iranians could initiate an action on their own account. The Israelis may launch a strike as they have threatened to do so in the past. The consequences are essentially the same for the United States either way. A wider war would begin and U.S. forces would remain fixed in the Middle East.

How is this outcome to be avoided?

Conflict between two different ways of life, between two civilizations, may be inevitable if we accept the notion that Iran represents the Islamic Civilization and America represents Western Civilization. The Iranians argue the case that their civilization deserves the advantage of nuclear weaponry. Why should the West have a veto power over Iranian armaments? The Americans, British, French and Israelis fear a nuclear Iran because they fear the radical nature of Islamic religious thinking. It is evident, at first blush, that neither side can admit the other’s argument. The Iranians cannot accept that their religious makes them unfit for holding nuclear weapons. At the same time, the West (especially Israel) fears a nuclear-armed Iran.

Is the West arrogant for seeking to withhold nuclear technology from the Iranians? In the final analysis what matters is the fact of impending conflict. In this matter, even if the Americans are paralyzed and unable to attack Iran, the Israelis look back to Hitler and the Holocaust and see no choice. They must launch a strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities. The logic of the Israeli side must be obvious to everyone. Therefore, a serious military and economic crisis must follow.

We should not expect a peaceful solution.