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Benny Hinn Crusade in Hershey Pa

R
rookie

I had never listened to this man before, so I thought I'd go and hear what was said.

The morning conference began with wonderful worship music. It was followed by Benny Hinn teaching for 20 minutes on the symbolism of the OT tabernacle. Then Benny Hinn asked another preacher to teach...all of a sudden things changed.

The preacher began his sermon with declaring how much he loved God's word. He encouraged the congregation to pick up their bibles and stroke the book. He then began to testify on the laws of Christ that many do not understand. He preached that if one sows "seed" which he defined as money, then God would give back more than one could ever give away. I watched the congregation praising this man's testimony of God's faithfulness in giving him dress clothes to preach in. I saw the congregation sway when he preached that God gave him a rolls royce.

He then began to set the stage for the congregation to plant their "seeds" in faith. He testified that God had given him the sense that he was to ask that for every chapter in Scripture, (1189 chapters) there would be 1189 people who should give 1000 dollars. He instructed the congregation to take their check books out of their purses and pockets and place the check book on the Bible.


He then said that he would pray that by December 31 of this year that those who planted their 'seed" would recieve 3 things from the Lord. The first, was that the Lord would pay off their homes mortgage. The second prayer request is that the Lord would give each individual double wisdom.

Before he got to the third prayer request I had left the building.

It was a sad day.

In Christ
Jeff

S
sermonindex

I must say, if it is as you say, sad indeed.

S
sermonindex

Before he got to the third prayer request I had left the building.

I've heard the exact same abomination preached from the pulpit. I left too... under different circumstances...

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

That is extremely sad.

The "seed faith" idea is fundamentally flawed in the sense that it equates to physical "investing" for personal physical (and rarely, spiritual) gain.

David Wilkerson reminds us in his message "[b]Holy Ground[/b]" (found here on this website) that the only thing that Christ told us to ask for was our "daily bread." I feel pity for the poor souls who use the principle of "giving" as a means to advance their earthly greed. Yet Paul reminds us that "[i]Godliness WITH CONTENTMENT is great gain[/i]." The entire "seed faith"/"prosperity" cult is driven by a desire for more of what this world offers.

How utterly [u]Laodicean[/u]!

How truly sad!

:-(

S
sermonindex

Wolves in sheeps clothing.

S
Swordbearer

This is a god that has been fabricated as a means, not an end. Where is thy God, O Christian? ? ?

D
docs

I have thought about it and thought about it and have to say that in my opinion that these sow your seed preachers are nothing more than modern day indulgence preachers. Salvation and release from purgatory were once hawked by the roadsides by travelling hucksters. "As soon as the penny into the coffer rolls out of Purgatory a soul flies" was their mantra. Now it's, "As soon as your seed hits the collection plate out of heaven your rich and prosperous future does fly." You can change your destiny, your family's destiny, obtain health, obtain money, and obtain honor and anything else you want. It's just you have to PAY to get it. Then they add insult to injury by saying things like the brother mentioned above in his post - "The Lord showed me if 1,1189 people give etc....." Bottom line - you can get it but you have to PAY for it first.

"Doc"

I
iansmith

It doesn't take a theologian to figure out that these people are not preaching the Word of God... another website to check out would be http://www.ministrywatch.com/ which tries to find out just how these ministries use their money.

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mom23beagles

I'm sorry you had to waste your precious time listening to this charletan. But now you know, and you can say you heard it first-hand. When you know better, you do better. You'll be in a unique position to counsel others regarding this false teaching. God bless you, brother.

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sermonindex

The first, was that the Lord would pay off their homes mortgage. The second prayer request is that the Lord would give each individual double wisdom.

Sounds to me like the Lord gave you double wisdom without giving anything! You left the building!

My friend ce4 made the comment "if it was as you say it was..." Well, back in the day when I was into WOF I went to two different Benny Hinn crusades, and I know that it is exactly as you say it is. And Prime Time Live did a special on Benny Hinn a year or so ago, and it was shown on there as well. No editting... it was a straight up quote.

Benny Hinns ministry is a money making machine, and nothing else. Whatever "good" he may do means nothing when compared to the bad that is being done in the name of Jesus.

Krispy

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Nellie

There are so many that are being deceived by the WOF movement.
We all must remember that it will not be popular with anyone to take a stand against them.
A lot of times we will be the only one who walks out.
I walked out last Sunday from a Church Service.
The Pastor of this Church had asked this man to so call preach.
He had been told to call this man.
He was WOF, plus in the last Church I attended, he was telling people they were Prophets and Prophetess's, and promising people monetary gain.
Whatever happened to Jesus, who had no place to lay His Head?

Unless the Holy Spirit reveiled that this is a false doctrine, they won't believe us.
Even when we give Scripture.
I've tried to tell them.

Krispy, did someone or God show you they were false?

God Bless all.
Nellie

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sermonindex

Krispy, did someone or God show you they were false?

It's a testimony that I have given numerous times on this forum... but the Readers Digest versions is...

I was saved in a WOF church. The salvation was genuine, and I understand salvation thru and thru. However, it went down hill from there, and I blame myself mainly because being completely ignorant of the Bible and church when I was saved I just swallowed whatever anyone told me, trusting those "in authority"... and being told that questioning those "in authority" is the same thing as "touching the Lord's annointed", a no-no in WOF circles.

We see it here on this forum from time to time. It's going on right now, people telling us we shouldnt question men like Rick Joyner or Mike Bickle because they are the Lord's "annointed", and they do a lot of good works.

Anyway, I was eating up books by anybody and everybody... Good Morning Holy Spirit (a Hinn book) was handed to me by a pastor only days after I was saved. This man didnt have a spare Bible to lend me till I got one of my own, but he was happy to give me that wretched piece of work by Benny Hinn. That should have been my first clue.

Then I went on to read Hagin, Copeland, Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes... brother, I read 'em all. Visited Brownsville, went to Hinn Crusades, etc.

The one thing I never did much was watch TBN. I was 20 or so when the whole Jim Bakker thing hit the fan, and I was far from being saved at that point. I was a foul mouthed, hard drinking womanizer when that was all going on. I mocked Tammy Faye, and the whole televangelist movement. So I was never able to bring myself to watching what passes for Christian TV. I did catch Copeland now and then. But I was more of a book reader.

The deeper we got into it all the more I started to see cracks in the whole thing. Unfulfilled "prophecies"... promises that we were told were scriptural but really werent (but just manipulation tactics to get money)... much abuse of "authority"... sexual scandels galore... divorced ministers guilty of adultry given back the pulpit after only 6 months of "counceling"... etc.

Now, there are some very sincere WOF leaders. Dont get me wrong. Many live very moral lives. I dont want to paint them all the same color.

But the doctrines they believe and teach breed these kinds of problems. It's a natural result.

A friend of mine advised me to put the books, CD series, etc down... and just read God's Word and study it. God has given us everything we need between Genesis & Revelation. There is no new revelation after the close of the Bible. God has not added anything new to what He has already given. We have teachers among us, this is true. And they are needed. Expository preaching is a gift from God. But we are responsible for ourselves as far as learning God's Word. All men are liars, God is truth.

So I bought a Matthew Henry Commentary (not the concise one either, the full blown one!), and I sat down with God's Word and MH... slowly went thru the Bible. I was to the point where we only went to church about once a month. God was really taking me out to the desert.

It took a long time, but I came out of the desert a new man, and my wife a new woman. And I was [b]angry[/b]. Angry at those who taught me deception for several years. And also angry at myself for allowing myself to be deceived, and for ignoring the obvious answer to deceit... God's Word.

Most in the church we were attended began to shun us. We lost a lot of "so-called" friends. People who had led me to the Lord called me "apostate". My name was mentioned from the pulpit as being one of the seeds who falls on dry ground and dies. I was told I was leaven, and I was going to ruin the entire lump with my questioning of what was being taught. I was actually told "I am the pastor, and it is not your place to question me."

There was a lot of hurt. But because I knew the truth, I stood on my own two feet and would not bow.

So to answer your question... God the Holy Spirit showed me thru the Word.

And praise God, I'm not hurt or angry anymore. Neither is my wife. The friends we lost were replaced by friends who are more than friends, they are family to me. And we dont see eye-to-eye on everything, but it doesnt matter.

God is good.

Krispy

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PaulWest

When you speak out against these kinds of teachings, you will be accused of not believing the [i]full gospel[/i]. I've had to suffer this reproach personally, and by a brother whom I loved and still love. He saturates himself with books by Kenneth Hagen and Tommy Tenney and Juanita Bynum, and from them he has learned to "rebuke" sickness and "claim" physical healing Jesus brings us by His stripes.

These teachers say that if you feel sick, don't confess it. If you're financially strapped, don't confess it. Instead, begin proclaiming your victory...and God will reward your faith. What a way to cheapify the gospel and misunderstand the atonement! I sincerely believe God has purposed the false teachers to stand in the pulpit and lie in the limelight in order to test the heart of man. In many cases, the sheep that follow them are born-again believers, but they have been led astray on account of failed discipleship. It's like a goat giving birth to a kid, and as soon as the kid is born he is snatched away by human hands and fed a bottle of formulaic goatmilk. The kid should have remained with his mother to feed from her udder. A true servant of God will always lead a new convert to the Bible whereby he can grow by sincere milk. A true preacher will only indicate the true milksource, and never the man-made bottle of synthetic design.

And so, many are fed from formula instead of the udder, for the forumula bottle is all they've ever known, it's easy, convenient. You have to work at getting under the udder, you have to labor to find the source, which is sometimes hidden to foster a greater maturity in seeking it out. What they need is a man of God who can point them to the udder, but such a man can't speak of it until he himself has found it and tasted of it. There are those hungry kids that will abandon WOF teachings once they taste the freshness of truth, once they see that they've been fed junk all their Christian life, and can't possibly grow any more. The bottle promotes carnal growth, whereas the udder spiritual. Spiritual eyes, therefore, must be opened to survey spiritual diminishment and detest carnal obnoxiousness.

Brother Paul

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sermonindex

Excellent word, bro Paul!

Let me add to what you said here:

These teachers say that if you feel sick, don't confess it. If you're financially strapped, don't confess it.

Oh man, this was hammered into my head. You know what this really is? [b]Superstition.[/b] Nothing more. Paul never once indicated (or any other scripture writer) that we should not be realistic about our state in this life! The following scriptures go completely against this WOF heresy:

[b]2Co 8:1-2[/b] [i]Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; How that in a [b]great trial of affliction[/b] the abundance of their joy and [b]their deep poverty[/b] abounded unto the riches of their liberality.[/i]

[b]Rev 2:9[/b] [i]I know thy works, [b]and tribulation, and poverty[/b], (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.[/i]

[b]Rom 15:26[/b] [i]For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the [b]poor saints[/b] which are at Jerusalem.[/i]

[b]Jam 2:5[/b] [i]Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen [b]the poor of this world[/b] rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?[/i]

[b]Jam 5:14-15[/b] [i]Is any [b]sick[/b] among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord...[/i]

(Notice it doesnt say "deny your sick and claim your healing!" It says have the elders of the church pray over you!)

[b]2Co 11:25-28[/b] [i]Thrice was I [b]beaten with rods[/b], once was I [b]stoned[/b], thrice I [b]suffered shipwreck[/b], a night and a day I have been [b]in the deep[/b]; In journeyings often, in [b][color=0000FF]perils[/color][/b] of waters, in [b][color=0000FF]perils[/color][/b] of robbers, in [b][color=0000FF]perils[/color][/b] by mine own countrymen, in [b][color=0000FF]perils[/color][/b] by the heathen, in [b][color=0000FF]perils[/color][/b] in the city, in [b][color=0000FF]perils[/color][/b] in the wilderness, in [b][color=0000FF]perils[/color][/b] in the sea, in [b][color=0000FF]perils[/color][/b] among false brethren; In [b]weariness and painfulness[/b], in watchings often, in [b]hunger and thirst[/b], in fastings often, in [b]cold and nakedness[/b]. Beside those things that are without, that which [b]cometh upon me DAILY[/b], the care of all the churches.[/i]

Huh?? No mention of Rolex watches? No limo's? No Rolls Royces? Where does Paul mention the seaside manson in Malibu? I know it must be in there somewhere!

And I challenge anyone on this forum to show me where, in the NT, material possesions and earthly gain, and monetary wealth is even once shown as a blessing or something the believer should desire or chase after. In the OT there were instances where God blessed in that manner as a sign of His favor... but that was a different covenant and dispensation. We are under the New Conenant.

WOF crumbles under the weight of those passages. WOF claims promises made to a different people, under a different covenant, in a different dispensation. Is God the same yesterday, today and forever? Absolutely, Amen He is! But His dealings with man [b]have[/b] changed. That's Bible 101. We can not claim the same promises for ourselves! They were not written for us. They were not given to us. Tho WOF denies this, the fact is... WOF is basically a natural progression of "Replacement Theology".

This is exactly what started getting me to thinking that WOF wasnt all it was cracked up to be. The more I read the Bible the more I couldnt justify all the "blab it and grab it" theology that was coming my way via the pulpit.

I remember distinctly the sermon that I heard in that church that really pushed me into "Berean-mode"... the guest preacher said that Jesus was wealthy beyond compare. Jesus was able to quit working as a carpenter and go into full time ministry because of the gold the wise men brought to Him as a gift when He was born. So He and the disciples were living on that gold, which by todays standards was probably several million dollars.

... and a scripture popped into my mind (via the Holy Spirit) which says:

[b]Mat 8:20[/b] [i]And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.[/i]

And that is was the beginning of my journey out of WOF.

Krispy

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PaulWest

2Co 11:25-28 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me DAILY, the care of all the churches.

Yes, brother. As I like to say, this was God's prosperity plan for the greatest, holiest, most spiritual Christian who ever lived. Error has a wonderful way of crumbling into dust when lifted up before the face of Holy Scripture.

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Santana

What's your opinion on, not only Benny Hinn, but any preacher driving a Rolls Royce?

There's a local megachurch around the corner where the Bishop has a 2007 Bentley but I can't judge him by that?

It just doesn't look good.

T
Tears_of_joy

What's your opinion on, not only Benny Hinn, but any preacher driving a Rolls Royce?

Joh 12:14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
Joh 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.

That doesn't mean that we cannot have a car, but in the light of this, in the light of the life of our Master, oh, it will break your heart... And you will be in shame to live in luxuries. It MUST break your heart. It must...otherwise where is your heart? where?

Disciples..

Master..

Discipleship..

Lordship...

T
Tears_of_joy

There's a local megachurch around the corner where the Bishop has a 2007 Bentley but I can't judge him by that?

Brother, the only word that cries in my mind when I read such grievous testimonies is RUN, and not just RUN, but run with ALL your might for your life! (I'm not talking about you personally)

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Not many see this as clearly as a young disciple named R_____ M_____. In 1960, he was president of the freshman class of a Christian school. During his term, it was proposed that expenditures be made for the usual class parties, jackets, and a class gift. Rather than approve such expenditures which did not contribute directly to the furtherance of the gospel, R_____ M_____ resigned from his post as president. The following letter was distributed to his fellow classmen on the day his resignation was announced:

Dear Classmates:

Since the matters of class parties, jackets, and the class gift have been brought before the Cabinet, I, as the president of the class have been considering the Christian attitude toward these areas.

I think we would find the greatest joy for our own selves in giving ourselves, our money, and our time entirely for Christ and for others, thus finding the reality of His Words: ‘He who loses his life for My sake will find it.’

For Christians to spend their money and time on things that do not result in a definite witness to the unbeliever or for the building up of His children in Him would seem to be inconsistent with the facts that 7000 people die daily from starvation and over half the world has never heard of man’s only Hope.

How much more glory we could give to God by helping to spread the Gospel to the other 60% of the world who have never heard of Jesus Christ or even in many neighboring homes instead of coming together in a little clique by ourselves, limiting our social well-roundedness to those of like mind, and wasting money and time for our own pleasure.

Since I am aware of specific needs and opportunities where finances can be used to such great advantage to the glory of Jesus Christ and for helping my neighbor here and abroad, it is impossible for me to allow class funds to be spent unnecessarily on ourselves. If I were one of those who are in so great a need, as I know of so many to be in, I would want those who have the ability to do all that they could to supply me with the Gospel and with my material needs.

“And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.”

“But if any one has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?”

Therefore it is with love and prayer, that you might see the Lord Jesus giving His all (2 Corinthians 8:9), that I hereby submit to you my resignation as president of the class of ’63.

In Him with you,

R_____ M_____

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J
jennylocht

Krispy, did someone or God show you they were false?
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It's a testimony that I have given numerous times on this forum... but the Readers Digest versions is...
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Krispy
I just read your Reader´s Digest Testimony
and I really praise God for what He did in your life and your wife´s !!!
It gives big hope to read about people letting the Holy Spirit really guide them to the Truth and the Word.
I really think more time and faith in prayer is needed from Bible-reading Christians for our brothers and sisters who are entangled in false teachings and false churches, not only Mr. Hinn´s, but worldwide.
God wants to answer his children !!!
The formula is clear: more Bible, more letting God teach us, more guidance from the Holy Spirit, more Jesus´ life in us
GOd bless you all

Jenny

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Nellie

Thanks a lot, Krispy.
I'm glad the Holy Spirit showed you.
God Bless
Nellie

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sermonindex

What's your opinion on, not only Benny Hinn, but any preacher driving a Rolls Royce?

I dont think it wise to start judging people based on what they drive, or the house they live in. Suppose his father was a wealthy business man and left the Rolls Royce to him in his will? You dont know for sure.

If they live in utter extravagance, then I myself would be leary of them... but thats just something we need to be careful of. By what standard do we judge them? Christians living in the sewers of some 3rd world country could look at [b]anyone[/b] living in America and say we live a life of wealth and extravagance... even people living in a trailer park.

I dont worry too much about other people's lifestyles... I have enough issues of my own. The only time you'll see me mention lifestyles is when they flaunt it, like Benny Hinn and his gang, and turn it into a theology.

Krispy

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sermonindex

Obviously, he's not changed much in 15 years. I saw him about 3 or 4 times between 1987 & 1993. And on the last one, my eyes were opened. I had invited my brother-in-law who desperately needed the Lord but all he got was if he gave a certain amount of money he'd get rich.

I personally believe that Benny Hinn in the beginning was indeed called by God but only God knows what happened from there.

Also, I believe that Benny Hinn or someone close to him found a "gimmick" with the praise and worship music. The majority of baby Christians (and those prone to deception) are so taken up with that worship music that they follow anything he says... it's just like the pied - piper.

I just thank God He opened my eyes.

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sermonindex

I'll be brave enough to call it a satanic influence, or a hold he has over the crowd.

Krispy

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Santana

What amazes me is the amount of Christians who go to "normal" churches and support him.

This has been my conversation, more than once with friends who belong to other churches in our small towns.

Santana: Hey, how was church yesterday?

John Doe: OH MAN! you missed an awesome service. It was just like a Benny Hinn revival.

More than once people. I guess it has to be a satanic influence....or just extreme emotions. Or both?!?! :-(

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sermonindex

... or extreme ignorance. Ignorance of the Bible, and ignorance of Benny Hinn.

Another heretical author thats become popular in all denominations, even fundamental Baptist churches, is Joyce Meyer.

And I blame it on laziness and ignorance. They go hand in hand.

Krispy

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Santana

How dare you speak against Joyce Meyer! Just kidding but I didn't realize how much people protect her.
I can't say anything about her teachings anymore without a good ole fashion, "Who are you to judge?!"

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sermonindex

I can't say anything about her teachings anymore without a good ole fashion, "Who are you to judge?!"

Oh, there'll probably be one before this thread falls off the radar. Just give it time.

People jump in and defend her, but when they are confronted with her actual words and documented position on WOF doctrines, they resort to the old "If your life produced only 10% of the fruit that she does... yadda yadda".

Just endured that on another thread about "prophets".

Krispy

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tjservant

And I blame it on laziness and ignorance. They go hand in hand.

Another contributing factor is that people are scared of being labeled judgmental and loosing favor with friends and fellowships. I’m personally more scared of not warning people.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov. 1:7)


I guess this falls into the ignorance of the Word category.

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running2win

I guess it has to be a satanic influence....or just extreme emotions. Or both?!?! :-(

Just my personal oppinion on the matter, but I think that in peoples' longing for an [i]experience[/i] and/or to see something supernatural or atleast something beyond the "ordinary" they lose sight of the need to prove all things according to the word of God, and thus through lack of discerment they open themselves up to "outside" influences. From what I have observed of the phenomena that take place in the hyper-charismatic circles I hold to the oppinion that much of it is demonic.

R
Rahman


Over 20 years ago our Lord used a young Baptist preacher on fire for our Lord, and against all the denominational pomp and circumstance, to help bring me into salvation, now today he too is all intwined with the crap that has attached itself to the Body, he's pastoring a mega-church and just recently was ordained a Bishop in Catholic like robed finery, even to the point where other saints actually kissed his ring ... i wasn't invited, but another saint was who in retrospect was really upset with themselves that they had stooped to kiss the ring (even tho they said Holy Spirit told them not to) because they didn't want to appear out of the loop ...

Then just yesterday i heard another minister who is actually very gifted in teaching,
sell out to the obtaining of the quick buck by ending in his message the need for folk to sow $$$ into his ministry so that they'd become part of a "circuit of prayer" toward the meeting of their own financial needs ... He said when they did so he'd send them a contract to carry around, in proof of their being bound in the "contract" ... Sad ain't the word for the crap that's going on in the Body today, disgusting is more like it!!! ...

i once watched a program on PBS about a man who pratically disassociated himself from all mankind by living alone in a log cabin in the Alaskan wilderness, and i wondered about that a lot because it seemed like such a selfish endeavor and waste of his life ... But ya know sometimes after talking with some saints, and seeing all the crap that our Lord in His long suffering is allowing in His Body, that log cabin seems to have a certain appeal (tho mine would have to be a thatched hut in Figi somewhere) ... It's only our Lord Who gives me the unction, Power and faith (plus i hate the whale's belly) to keep on running, praying, and believing that He's shortly about to rectify us ...

Help us Lord, and soon ... PLEASE!!!

I
iansmith

You know, I was walking through my university community last night past midnight, past open bars, drunks, gang bangers... and I couldn't help but wonder where all the Christians were. Home in bed I guess. I'm as guilty as anyone else.

I wondered what Jesus would do at one of our big conferences or mega-churches... so many people preach on Jesus as loving and accepting. What would happen if he came in and started kicking the drum set, and knocking down microphones, and tossing podiums off of the stage and telling everyone what a disgusting act it all was... just like when he went into the temple and confronted the money changers.

We need people to be on the streets, telling people to repent, we need people in the churches willing to turn over the tables of the money changers.

That would be true revival in America.

M
MSeaman

Now wait just a minute here!!!!

Do you mean to tell me that I am not going to receive that $1 million check I just claimed? or that new mercedes? I cannot believe all you naysayers...

Just kidding! :-P

Although I have started to read several of Joyce Meyer's books, I cannot finish any of them. The things she says just don't sit right with me when I compare them to Scripture.


Another contributing factor is that people are scared of being labeled judgmental and loosing favor with friends and fellowships. I’m personally more scared of not warning people.

My sister in law was reading that Joel Osteen book...can't think of the name of it best life now or something? She asked me if I had read it and I said, what? he's a false teacher, I won't read anything by him...

Maybe that was too severe, but anyone who calls himself a Christian but won't say Jesus is the Only Way to God sounds like a false teacher to me and I'd rather warn her than let her believe his false teachings. My husband was not impressed with me after this conversation. He told me I shouldn't say things like that.

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sermonindex

We need people to be on the streets, telling people to repent, we need people in the churches willing to turn over the tables of the money changers.

Amen

S
sermonindex

The only thing I like about a Benny Hinn crusade is the worship and the music.

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Santana

We need people to be on the streets, telling people to repent...

Is it me, or do most people on the streets who scream repentence....are crazy! Not in a good way but in a real lunatic way. Most people who go to parades and festivals with these large signs that say REPENT, aren't all there if you know what I mean.

I'm all for open air preaching but come it's the real crazies who I see doing that stuff?

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sermonindex

The only thing I like about a Benny Hinn crusade is the worship and the music.

The only thing I like about a Benny Hinn crusade is when it leaves town.

Krispy

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sermonindex

Have you listened to the Masters Healing Touch Music series Krispy? It's just music, no singing, and no preaching, but it's one of my favorites. The Children's piano is equally beautiful. I'd love to send you a music clip of this. PM me.

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sermonindex

We need people to be on the streets, telling people to repent...
We need to be going to Churches and tell believers to repent. When we get straightened out, there will be no trouble getting believers to be out on the mission fields of our cities.

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sermonindex

If it's from Benny Hinn, Inc... I mean ministries, I think I'll pass. Rather put on some earphones and crank Disciple.

Krispy

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We need to be going to Churches and tell believers to repent. When we get straightened out, there will be no trouble getting believers to be out on the mission fields of our cities.

There are brothers and sister doing this. I had a brother get arrested for standing up in the middle of a seeker friendly megachurch service (after they were openly mocking the holiness of God in a dramatic re-enactment) and start preaching against them. The "church" pressed charges and prosecuted right down to the trial. In this instance my brother was allowed to walk when the Lord had the prosecuter decide to drop the charges for some reason or another.

Are we really ready to see this start happening, or will even the "revival crowd" distance themselves from this type of prophetic calling. The institutional church system is set up to keep true prophets out of the pulpits by and large.., has been since the days of John the baptist.

In Christ - Jim

C
cthom

Here is a chapter I read in one of Zac Poonen's books from his church website:
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=new_wine_in_new_wineskins

Goto Chapter 15:

ANOTHER "JESUS" AND HIS MINISTRY

Imagine that you were in Palestine over 1960 years ago and that you heard of the ministry of someone called "Jesus of Nazareth" who was healing the sick. Not having seen Him yourself, you are delighted when you come across a large crowd attending a healing meeting in Jerusalem, with someone called `Jesus' as the speaker.

As you draw near, you find that up on the platform, along with `Jesus' (the speaker), Pilate and Herod, and Annas and Caiaphas are also seated. `Jesus' then comes forward and addresses the crowd saying how honoured they all should feel that day because the two greatest secular rulers of Palestine, "the most honourable Herod and Pilate had graciously come to honour the meeting with their presence". And not only that, but "two great men of God, the Right Reverend Annas and Caiaphas were also there to bless the gathering".

Having spoken these words of introduction, `Jesus' then invites Herod and Pilate to inaugurate the meeting and to speak a few words. Herod and Pilate both praise `Jesus' by saying what a lot of good he is doing to the community by his ministry and that he deserves the support of all people. "The Right Reverend Annas and Caiaphas" are then invited by `Jesus' to say a few words and to "open in prayer". They also praise `Jesus' highly and invite all the people in their denomination to support `Jesus''s ministry wholeheartedly.

Then `Jesus' invites Judas Iscariot to say a few words about the financial needs of the ministry. Judas speaks about the tens of thousands of denarii needed to meet all the needs of the ministry. He states that 'forms' are available with the ushers for those who contribute more than 1000 denarii saying that `Jesus' has promised to pray special prayers for such people (it does not matter whether they are believers or unbelievers - all the rich are welcome and the richer the better!). Herod then gets up and offers to give a tax deduction to all those who contribute to this ministry. The collection is then taken. Then `Jesus' gives a brief message, demonstrates a few of his miraculous powers that astound the simple people, and heals a few sick people. And then before anyone can meet him, he rushes off with Herod, Pilate, Annas, Caiaphas and Judas Iscariot (and the bags of money) in the royal Roman chariot to the archbishop's palace in central Jerusalem to feast with them.

Somehow, at the end of all this, even though you are only a new convert, with little discernment and experience, you still feel a bit uneasy. All that you saw does not seem to fit in with the accounts that you had heard about Jesus from some of His apostles like Matthew, Peter and John.

Satan, however, is nearby to whisper in your ears, "It is written, 'Do not judge'" (Matt. 7:1). But you tell him, "It is also written, 'Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world'" (1 Jn. 4:1).

Finally, you come to a definite conclusion: "This is not the Jesus that I heard about. This is certainly "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4).

And you are right. It was another `Jesus'.

How did you come to that conclusion? Because the anointing within you told you the following facts (1 Jn. 2:19,20,27):

1. The real Jesus would not seek any sponsorship from secular rulers or any recommendations from unconverted religious heads for His ministry. Neither would He flatter any of them. When a bishop once came to Jesus, He told him that he needed to be born again (Jn. 3:1-10). Jesus called King Herod 'a fox' (Lk. 13:31,32) and even refused to talk to him when He met him (Lk. 23:8,9).

2. The real Jesus would never ask for money from anyone - not even for His ministry. He made His needs known only to His Father. The Father would then move the people or even a fish (in one instance) to supply Jesus' need (Lk. 8:1-3; Matt. 17:27).

3. The real Jesus would never 'sell' His prayers for any price. Simon the Samaritan magician once offered money for Peter's prayers and Peter rebuked him for such wickedness as to imagine that a divine gift could be bought with money (Acts 8:18-23). Simon repented immediately. But his unrepentant followers have been many through the centuries. The Roman Catholic Popes (claiming to be the successors of the Peter who rebuked Simon) have always sold their prayers for money. Martin Luther stood against all this wickedness in his day, like Peter. But some of the successors of Luther (today's Protestants) have again gone back to selling their 'prayers' and their 'prophecies' for cash; and alas, many like Simon are willing to pay for them!

Jesus specifically warned us that in the last days, deception would be so subtle that even the elect would almost be deceived - particularly through signs and wonders (Matt. 24:24). If there is any ministry that the elect are to beware of and examine most carefully today, it is the 'sign and wonder' ministry. Jesus told us not to believe it when people say that He came to their room to talk to them (See Matt. 24:26). The resurrected body of Jesus has never left the right hand of the Father in all these (more than 1900) years since His ascension. Paul and Stephen saw Him only there (Acts 7:53; 9:3). Even John did not see Jesus' physical body on Patmos but only symbols representing Jesus (Rev. 1:13-16). When Jesus does leave heaven, it will be for His second coming to earth.

Therefore when they say today that He came to their rooms, do not believe them.

Living in the midst of gullible believers, we must not remain without discernment. The Word of God gives a clear light for all who desire it in these last days. If we follow that light alone, we will never be deceived.
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That resolves this issue for me:
Compare every preacher with Jesus.

CThom

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Santana wrote:
How dare you speak against Joyce Meyer! Just kidding but I didn't realize how much people protect her.
I can't say anything about her teachings anymore without a good ole fashion, "Who are you to judge?!"

moe_mac wrote:
I realize you said you were kidding. Bit about judging, making a statement about anything is not judging. I am not making a statement for or against Joyce Meyers. This is the point. What does a judge do? Does he/she only say I think you done wrong and that's it? I don't think so. If that were truly judging then people wouldn't mind going to court so much. Judging is much more than giving an opinion. This is a liberal statement that has been coined to silence against anyone who would be vocal against sin or error, clear and simple.

H
hmmhmm

JUDGE NOT
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DO NOT SPEAK AGAINST ONE ANOTHER, brethren. He who speaks against a brother, or judges his brother, speaks against the law, and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge of it (James 4:11).

Do not speak against one another. Do not speak against your brethren. Do not judge your brother. Is that what it says? Look at verse 4 of the same chapter.

You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility to-ward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God (James 4:4).

You adulteresses!

Do not judge your brother!

From the pen of the same apostle, in the distance of a few paragraphs, in almost the same breath that he is saying "do not judge," James calls worldly churches "adulteresses."
SPIRITUAL ADULTERY

James is probably the oldest book of the New Testament. We know from its Hebraic background, from the way it draws on synagogue leadership structure and the Scriptures, that it was obviously written to Jewish Christians.
James is using the Hebrew concept of whoredom or harlotry. Whenever Israel went into idolatry, God calls it "adultery." Idolatry equals spiritual adultery.

Israel was to be God's woman, in much the same way as the church is the bride of Christ. The church being unfaithful is like Israel being unfaithful. That idolatry is called "adultery." It is a very strong term in Hebrew, a very strong concept in the Jewish mind.
BY THEIR FRUIT

Every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:17-20).

Jesus said that you can judge someone by their fruit. In the same chapter, He says, Do not judge lest you be judged (Matthew 7:1).

First it is, "Judge not lest you be judged," yet He goes on to say, "You will know them by their fruits." People involved with Toronto and Pensacola say, "You know Toronto/ Pensacola by its fruit and there is good fruit from it."

Jesus never said that you would know a phenomena by its fruit He said that you would know a person by their fruit.

More than that, even judging a phenomenon by its fruit, you can see that it is not the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit self-control, not drunkenness and lunacy.
CONTRADICTIONS?

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement (John 7:24).
First Jesus says, "Judge not lest you be judged," but then He says, "Judge with right judgement."

James appeared to contradict himself. Now Jesus seems to contradict himself. Jesus said, "Don't do it," then He tells you how; to do it. James said, "Don't do it," straight after he did it.

Therefore you are without excuse, every one of you who passes; judgement, for in that you would judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things (Romans 2:1).

Therefore do not go on passing judgement before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things that are hidden in darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God (1 Corinthians 4:5).

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God (Romans 14:10).

For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this [the guy in question here was involved in an incestuous relationship with his father's wife ], as though I were present (1 Corinthians 5:3).

Over and over, Paul says, "Don't judge." But then he passes judgment.

Jesus says, "Don't judge," but then he says to do it and shows you how.

James says, "Don't judge," but then he does it.

Why the contradictions?
>GOD IS THE JUDGE

If God says in the Bible that something is wrong, and we see someone or some church do that thing, we are not judging them, it is the Word of God that judges.

The Hebrew name, "Jehoshaphat" means Jehovah has judged. That is not me or you judging. We are simply acknowledging, "This is what God says."

James was not calling worldly churches "adulteresses." The Word of God says that, if we are attached to this world, we are an adulteress church.

Paul was not saying that the man involved with his step-mother was immoral. Paul was saying that the Word of God says that person was immoral.

If God says that something is plainly wrong, that is not you or me judging, that is God judging.

That is what it means when it says, "Judge with right judgement." Judging with right judgement means judging with God's judgement, not with our own.

There is a big problem here -- there are things that I would not do, but which are not necessarily wrong for someone else.
> PEOPLE'S OPINIONS

I know of a case where some believers, after their wedding, went to a discotheque. (I would not go to a discotheque unless it was to give out tracts.) I did not feel a peace about going, but I am not going to make a big deal out of it, no matter what my own misgivings or feelings.

I know of another case in Ireland where, at a Christian wedding, people danced. Other people became indignant and began yelling, "You're backsliders," and stormed out of the wedding, creating a big scene. It split a church. That is people judging.

The word "Laodicea" has to do in the Greek with "people's opinions, people's judgements." We have no right to make a judgement of another person, but once God says something is right or wrong,that is not us judging.
ANAKRINO -- TO DISCERN

The Greek word for "judge" is krino.

If you put the prefix "ana" in front of the word "krino," you get a variation on the idea of himself is judged [anakrino] by no man (1 Corinthians 2:15).

God, in His Word, commands us to anakrino. It is not a right; it is not a privilege; it is not something that is advisable. We are commanded to do it. And if you do not discern, you lack wisdom.

There is a reason why false teachers will not stand up publicly and debate someone like Hank Hangraaff or Dave Hunt.

People who will stand up and say, "That is not Scriptural." "That is not right." "I discern that this is not of God," are practicing wisdom.

The reason why Michael Brown backed out of his debate with me over Pensacola, and why Jim McConnell backed out of his debate with me over British Israelism is that they lack wisdom.

Those who practice wisdom, cannot themselves be judged by anyone. Because they anakrino, they cannot be anakrinoed. That is why those others are afraid of them.
DIAKRINO -- TO DECIDE

I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide [diakrino] between his brethren? (1 Corinthians 6:5).

Another prefix which changes the meaning of krino is "dia." Diakrino means to "render a decision."

Is something right or wrong? Is someone's behavior right or wrong morally? Is it Scriptural or unscriptural? Is it of God, or is it of the flesh, or of the devil?

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul commands that we are to diakrino.

We are not permitted to diakrino. We are not advised to diakrino. We are not privileged to diakrino. We are commanded to diakrino. It is not that judging is acceptable. Rather, to fail to judge is unacceptable.
NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO THE SECULAR

About two months ago a woman and her husband contacted us, very distressed. They had a four year old girl who was the victim of semi-penetrated sex in a church. She was molested by a fourteen year old boy, who was supposedly a going to that same church for years.

This little girl was devastated. She drew me a picture, and as soon as I saw the picture, I knew what it was.

Now, I do not have much time for secular psychology. I believe in Biblical psychology, but I do believe in psychology. Biblical psychology is based in the book of Proverbs.

If you want to know why human beings behave and act the way they do, and think the way they do, read Proverbs. That is the best book of sociology and psycholog there is.

I can agree with human psychology to the degree that it is based on Biblical psychology. Secular psychology is godless, and sees man as a two dimensional being. It concerns me that so many evangelicals have gotten into secular psychology and pop psychology.

The little girl drew a picture of a house. Inside the house there were four windows and a door. Each face inside the house was female, there were no male faces.
And she drew a picture of herself, outside. There was no pelvis. There was no pubic area.

That, according to pediatric psychiatrists, is a very frequent characteristic of drawings by children who have been sexually abused.

Children of that age will say things with pictures and drawings that they cannot express verbally. No men and she herself had no mid-section.

Her parents told me, "We don't know what to do. We go to a Baptist church and the pastor can't advise us because this fourteen year old boy is a Christian, and, based on 1 Corinthians, we are not allowed to go to the secular authorities about another believer.

So, according to his parents, we can't tell the police or the court what has happened. We are at our wit's end; we don't know what to do. Our daughter is traumatized."
CIVIL LAW / CRIMINAL LAW

1 Corinthians 6 refers to Roman law. (The systems of jurisprudence in Britain, Australia and America are based on the original model in Rome.) 1 Corinthians 6 is talking about civil law, not criminal law; it is talking about suing someone under civil law, about litigation, it is not talking about criminal law.

It is 1 Corinthians 5 that talks about an immoral person.

I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother [any so-called Christian] if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -- not even to eat with such a one.

For what have I to do with judging [krino] outsiders? Do you not judge [krino] those who are within the church? (1 Corinthians 5:11-12)
We judge those who are within the church, who are guilty of immorality. Do not even associate with the person. Chapter 6 is not talking about criminal law. It is talking about civil law.

That fourteen-year-old should have been dealt with under the criminal law. His identity would have been protected by the court because of his age.

If something was not done for that kid at the age of fourteen, by the age of eighteen his life would have been destroyed. He would have been in an institution for pedophiles.

But this fourteen-year-old had a chance. He should have been brought before the authorities for his own good, and also so that the little girl could have seen justice being done.

If this kind of stuff is not dealt with by the church immediately, what is going to happen when these people get older?

The victims are traumatized for their whole lives. It affects their sexuality when they grow up. And that church could not even give a Biblical answer!

(It was probably a good thing it was a Baptist minister. He could not give a biblical answer, but if it had been a Pentecostal minister, he probably would have tried to cast demons out of the little girl!)

I talked to my friend's wife, who is a Christian pediatric psychiatrist, and I showed the pictures to a Christian pediatric psychologist. They both agreed with the advice I gave the parents. And the parents referred the matter to the criminal authorities.

But what were these other ones saying? "Do not judge." "You cannot go to the authorities about another Christian and you cannot judge another Christian."

What were they doing? Giving people a license to sexually abuse little kids?

This is what happens when the church goes away from God's Word.

We are not allowed to diakrino, we are commanded to diakrino; but it has to do with more than just people.
JUDGING PROPHECY

And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others [diakrino] pass judgement (1 Corinthians 14:29). We are commanded to judge prophecy.

But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

And you may say in your heart, "How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?"

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken.

The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).

Jeremiah 14 and Jeremiah 28 says the same thing. Jesus warned that there would be many false prophets in the last days.

We do not stone them to death any more, but the sin is no less serious. They shall die if they do not repent.

We are not under the law, but under grace; but their "ministries" should be stoned. 1 Corinthians 14:29 does not say that we are entitled to diakrino prophets or prophecies, rather we ar commanded to judge prophets andprophecies.

On this basis, Rodney Howard Browne is a false prophet. On this basis, John Wimber was a false prophet. On this basis, Rick Joyner is a false prophet. And on this basis, Paul Cain is a false prophet.

Now, that is not my judgement. I cannot krino anybody. The things that God has said will krino. I have to anakrino. I have to discern. Is this of God or is this of man?

No, it is not for me to judge. I have to diakrino, render a decision on whether it is morally right or wrong, by biblical standards.

The founders of the Mormon cult and the Jehovah Witnesses were false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen. The Roman Catholic nun, Lucia, from Fatima, in Portugal, is a false prophet; she predicted things that failed to happen. John Wimber and Paul Cain and Rick Joyner (as well as John Kilpatrick, Michael Brown and Gerald Coates) are false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen.

Do I have the right to say that? No, not the right, but the responsibility to say it, the command from my God in heaven to say it. That is not my judgment; it is what God says about these people.

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." If you fail to diakrino, you are failing to keep His commandments. If you fail to diakrino, you will let these same people go on giving people "words" from their own flesh or from Satan. People like that should be brought to account.
JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY

Then I charged your judges at that time, saying, "Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen, and judge righteously between a man and his fellow countrymen, or the alien who is with him" (Deuteronomy 1:16).

That was not advice; that was a command.

Just look at what has happened to our secular society. Everybody is a "victim."

It does not matter that he got blind drunk and he was driving at 90 miles an hour through a village and killed a little kid on a bicycle. He came from a broken home: he is a "victim." It does not matter.

I tried to talk to a prostitute the other day. "I do this because my father hung himself." That was her argument. "I came from a bad situation." I said, "You just told me that your sister goes to university and she came from the same background, and she thinks that what you are doing is terrible. sn't she a victim, too?" Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more in society. But how can we expect society to live up to God's standards, when the church will not live up to God's standards.

I came from a bad situation. My father drank. I was a drug addict by the age of sixteen, and I have no doubt whatsoever that, if Jesus had not intervened in my life, I would be dead by now or a destroyed person of some kind.

It is only because of Him that I went to university and got married and did the things I have been privileged to do.

Left to myself, I would not have amounted to anything. Nonetheless, I am responsible for my own life and my own choices.
SALT AND LIGHT

If the church will not uphold God's standards of responsibility, how can we expect our society to be any different?

If we are not upholding His standards, how can we be salt and light to a society that has turned it's back on God?

No wonder there is crime! The main reason for the moral and social decline of our society is not because of the unsaved people; it is because of the lukewarm church.
KRISIS -- HEAVEN OR HELL

There is a kind of judging that we are not called to do. The Greek word is krisis.

For not even the father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement [krisis] to the Son (John 5:22).

The ultimate determination of heaven and hell belongs to the Lord alone. We never krisis. We are forbidden to krisis.
KRITES -- THE JUDGE OF ALL

But you have come to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge [krites] of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect (Hebrews 12:23).

God is the judge of all. Yes, there are people who are called to judge, but God is the ultimate Judge of us all.
HUPO-KRITES -- PHARISEES

If we are going to stand up and confront other people in the church about something being wrong, we had better make sure we are not guilty of the same thing, because that is another kind of judging we are forbidden to do.

Here the prefix hupo is added to krites, giving us the English word "hypocrites."

This is what Jesus meant when he said, Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye?

You hypocrite [hupokrites], first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Matthew 7:1-5).

We do not krites and we especially do not hupokrites.
KRITIKOS -- TO DISCERN

For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

Cells called erythrocytes are stored in the red marrow of big bones, like the femur and the tibia. On the outside there is the bone and on the inside there is the marrow. But in between there is an area where, even with a microscope, it is very difficult to tellwhere the bone ends and where the marrow begins.

The Bible says that the relationship between soul and spirit is like that. Take prophecy: Was that from someone's imagination, or was it God's Spirit speaking through their spirit? It is very difficult to tell the difference.

Man is a three-dimensional being. You can separate a body from a soul; but you cannot easily tell where the soul ends and the spirit begins.

When people say, "The Lord showed me this" and "God told me that," it is difficult to know if it is someone's imagination or God's Spirit speaking to their spirit. The mind is a good servant, but a dangerous master. Many people overtly demonic, but they are prophesying from the futility of their own mind.

We are called to kritikos -- to discern between the soulish and the spiritual. The Word of God enables us to separate the bone from the marrow, the spiritual from the purely soulish.
SUMMARY

Judge not? What does the Bible say?

1. We never judge from our opinions.
2. We are commanded to anakrino -- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh,or of the devil?"
3. We are commanded to diakrino -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.
4. We do not krisis -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
5. We are sometimes appointed to krites -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.
6. We never, ever, hupo-krites -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.
7. We always kritikos -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit.

Jacob Prasch

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If God says in the Bible that something is wrong, and we see someone or some church do that thing, we are not judging them, it is the Word of God that judges.

Hmmhmm... you could have just posted that! That statement above is the truth, the whole truth, and nuthin' but the truth.

I cant tell you how many times I've been called a pharisee or judgemental because I simply responded to something with the Word of God.

Krispy

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well brother, they called Jesus the devil, and said he had a demon in him, so i think that is natural when someone speaks the true word of God, people dont like it simply because the word judges them, and it judges me to, the day the word dont any longer convicts me of my sin, of my bad habits of my bad speaking,my pride or what ever, that day is a sad day.

But its all clear in scripture i think, im sometimes amazed how people can not see certain things, im not talking about the hidden deep study things, i mean the clear pointed out red flags signs in scripture, people just dont see them.

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Santana wrote:
How dare you speak against Joyce Meyer! Just kidding but I didn't realize how much people protect her.
I can't say anything about her teachings anymore without a good ole fashion, "Who are you to judge?!"
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moe_mac wrote:
I realize you said you were kidding. Bit about judging, making a statement about anything is not judging. I am not making a statement for or against Joyce Meyers. This is the point. What does a judge do? Does he/she only say I think you done wrong and that's it? I don't think so. If that were truly judging then people wouldn't mind going to court so much. Judging is much more than giving an opinion. This is a liberal statement that has been coined to silence against anyone who would be vocal against sin or error, clear and simple.

edit:
Many places in he Epistles Paul and the other Apostles told individuals and groups face to face that they were acting like the devil, needed to examine themselves to see if they of the faith and in some cases to told them they were not acting like christians at all. The ones inside the church needed judged, not outside. Not just an opinion given, but judged. He gave opinions of those outside. He turned some over to the devil. In one passage Paul said, you have seen how I have conducted myself, so imitate me. When you hear the single phrase "judge not least ye be judge" in the sense and fashion that many use it. It is coming out of the KCQ translation. Keep christians quiet translation.

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Santana

I'm guilty of speaking against people who I have not prayed for. Ravenhill said, "Before you whip 'em, you must weep for them!"

But I must say, because of this website, I now know who to stay away from. And God always confirms it through his word.

If we summarize this entire thread....can we say that we have judged Benny Hinn? We have only exposed the truth about him.

We must pray for this man because imagine when God judges him?!?!? We don't want God's wrath on any man!! How awful that day will be when these false teachers stand before Him.

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davym

We must pray for this man because imagine when God judges him?!?!? We don't want God's wrath on any man!! How awful that day will be when these false teachers stand before Him.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

(Matthew 7 v22-23 KJV)

But I must say, because of this website, I now know who to stay away from. And God always confirms it through his word.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

(2 Peter 1 v10 KJV)


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I like that Ravenhill quote!!

I've noticed through the years, some NOT all who get involved with christian hollywood (TBN), it seems they lose focus. I'm not blaming our woes on TBN. I am reminded of when Samuel wept over Israel demanding a king like all the peoples around them and saying (paraphrased due to running off to work), "They have rejected me Lord." God said, "They have not rejected you, they've rejected me."

I see that today, they want the glit and glitter of hollywood (in their churches, in their pastors, in their conferences), they want it for their own lives and I've been guilty and probably am still.

We have rejected the One True God to be like everyone around us.

S
sermonindex

If we summarize this entire thread....can we say that we have judged Benny Hinn? We have only exposed the truth about him.

This is very important. Those who have been here for awhile know that I am very careful to not set myself up as judge of anyone's salvation... including folks like Benny Hinn. I've made a few people mad because I refused to say he isnt saved. Do I think he lives and teaches as a saved man should? No. But neither do I all the time, and neither does anyone else on here... except those of you who told me a couple weeks ago that you've reached sinless perfection. :-)

Now, there are obvious ones, like Joseph Smith, who we know wasnt saved because he did not believe or teach Biblical salvation. Pope John Paul II was not a saved man because he did not believe in Biblical salvation.

Benny Hinn does teach Biblical salvation, but there are certain aspects of his doctrine that kinda dont, but they do, but they dont... know what I mean? Most of his teachings are gross misrepresentations of scripture and God, but I would prefer to leave judgement of the man himself up to God.

But we are commanded in scripture to examine what a man teaches... and his teachings have been weighed and found wanting.

And I do think it is fair to look at his lifestyle as well. Living in opulance is not the sign of a follower of Christ. Billy Graham's ministry has certainly garnered a fair amount of funds over the years, yet he and his late wife Ruth live in a log home they built 40 years ago here in my area of NC. It's a very humble home. He lived on a certain income, and by most standards, it's not extravegant at all. I dont agree w/everything Billy Graham has done over the years (mainly his ecumenism), but he has walked the walk and talked the talk.

Krispy

D
davym

Krispy


Benny Hinn does teach Biblical salvation, but there are certain aspects of his doctrine that kinda dont, but they do, but they dont... know what I mean?

I know what you mean.

It's such a difficult area.

'One man ministry' is not Scriptural and the inevitable result of these ministries is a teaching doctrine based on, for example, Hinn's own views.

Given enough acumen for spin, these men can make the Bible say what they want it to.

We must stick close to Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to teach us.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that we are not in a position to question any person's salvation. Some of these doctrine's however are straight out of hell and will lead many there. I believe they also deceive genuine Christians. They should be shunned with vigour!

S
sermonindex

I agree wholeheartedly with you that we are not in a position to question any person's salvation. Some of these doctrine's however are straight out of hell and will lead many there. I believe they also deceive genuine Christians. They should be shunned with vigour!

Amen completely!

Krispy

Z
Zapthycat

It amazes me that people like this can still make a living, people are so hungry for God that they go and follow this guy and give him all their money... but they are not fed.

I saw a video, it may have been Dateline NBC, but it investigated his public records and so on, and revealed many details that the Hinn camp would prefer to be hidden. His wife called for a "Holy Ghost enema" to be administered to some folks, that's one thing I remembered... what a psycho. And how he has his staff meetings in Cancun and places like that, flying around in private jets at tremendous expense, and how each meeting requires a staff of 40 people JUST TO COUNT THE MONEY. Pathetic. Really really sad.

Here's a 10 min video Dateline did:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FUyPjeIFKug

S
sermonindex

Yep... if he has the gift of healing, let him go down to the children's ward at the hospital and heal some of those little ones... for free. What's he afraid of?

Krispy

H
hmmhmm

the most amazing thing, or the most inconsistent.... is they claim we can heal any decease, we can even raise people from the dead! God can do all things! witch i believe he can...dont misunderstand me...but the only thing he cant do is get some money for them...they always have to turn to men for money, that is one strange God, he can do all things except give them money. They have to turn to people for that, and i like one thing Zac Poonen pointed out, Jesus never even once preached about healing, he healed thousands...but never preached on it, now we have thousands preach on healing, but very little actually being healed.

Jesus preached holiness and did in action heal people. Spent little time on teaching it.

just some thoughts

S
sermonindex

With all the warnings in the NT about money and wealth, it amazes me that [b]anybody[/b] falls for this garbage. Show me one passage in scripture where we are told we will be wealthy if we follow Jesus.

I can sure show you a lot of passages that promise us just the opposite if we follow Him.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

but the only thing he cant do is get some money for them...they always have to turn to men for money, that is one strange God, he can do all things except give them money.

excellent!

H
hmmhmm


KrispyKrittr wrote:

I can sure show you a lot of passages that promise us just the opposite if we follow Him.

Krispy

yes, but that will not make a good crowd brother preaching that, all those mege big super buildings would be empty if they started preaching thoose verses....

R
running2win

With all the warnings in the NT about money and wealth, it amazes me that anybody falls for this garbage. Show me one passage in scripture where we are told we will be wealthy if we follow Jesus.

I think the primary reason for all the deception in much of the charismatic world is because the people don't know their Bibles. There's no lack of christian sincerity amongst them but like Krispy's story they just don't know their Bibles and so they have no defense against scam artists and hucksters that pose as "preachers" and "healers" and "mighty men of God" like Benny Hinn and many others.

And then there's the other crowd that are only there because they want the money that they are promised "God" will give them for giving to Hinn's Babylon. And to those I say let them be deceived because they operate entirely out of greed. They couldn't care less about God in the first place all they're out for is a free buck and a good time and think that they can use God to get that.

B
bnutting

Dear Brother Jeff,

For years I sat under ministries where gifts were "not for today". I never really accepted that but neither would I get close to it either. Years later, after being in ministries where there was "little fruit" I was baptised in the Holy Spirit. Now I do not know if you have been or not and it is not necessary for salvation, but I do know that I remember feeling just like what I have read in your posts.

I know some of these Charismatic preachers seem off the deep end sometimes, but try to look past what your first impressions are and observe the lives that are changed. Listen to more of their sermons online and have an open mind. We know that God chooses to use the week things of the world to confound the wise and I think I would rather be one of the weak then the wise.

Moses was a murderer, Jonah ran the other way, David had an affair, and Paul persecuted believers. How much more can God use preachers who may, or may not, have their theology different then what we have learned.

We all have to choose where we stand but I think we should also choose to overlook when preachers ask for money. Remember there are thousands and thousands of people in those crusades who choose to give or choose to not give. If they don't want to listen to appeals for money they can always choose to do what you did.

Have an open heart brother. One day the Lord will reveal the real theologies and I am sure we will all find out that we believe some pretty different stuff.

Lord Bless you
Bruce

M
Miccah

Welcome Bruce. I look forward to reading your thoughts and ideas.


bnutting wrote:


We all have to choose where we stand but I think we should also choose to overlook when preachers ask for money.

So we should turn an ear/eye to the doings of false profits? Is that biblical?

I don't think anyone has a problem with men of God asking for money (granted, I did not read the entire post so I am not sure), but more of people who preach another gospel. Is Benny Hinn one of these? Does he preach the Word for Gods glory, or his own?


B
bnutting

Do a word study on the word "prosper" in the Bible. There are many instances in scripture that says if we do what God says to do we will prosper and so will our children.

Deuteronomy 28 is a good example. The first 16 or so verses talk about what God will do to prosper us if we do what He says. The rest of the chapter tells us what happens if we don't do what he says.

Job, David and Abraham where quite wealthy but Jesus did not have a place to put his head and John eat locust and honey for food. I ask myself, where am I in this continuem. To I try to be like the rich godly men in the Bible or do I try to be like Jesus and the disciples and give everything away to the poor.

I think we should be very careful about judging people particularly when it comes to money. I think we should take a good hard look at ourselves and how we handle money. Are we tithing? Are we giving sacrificially? Do we buy "things" for ourself? Do we put any effort into the feeding the hungry? Do we turn the dial when the "feed the children" ads? come on TV or do we watching it and cry over the pain they are suffering?

It is not money that is evil, it is the love of money that leads to all kinds of evils.

The world does a good job confusing us. They say we should have an IRA but did the apostles have one or did the live by faith?

I wrestle with these issues almost everyday, particularly when it is time to pay the bills and I know there are missionaries who need more help. Or when it comes to Christmas time and I have more friends and family then I have money for.

Let us have a spirit of humility before the Lord and be silent when it comes to judging others about money, particularly when we probably could be judged too.

Bruce

B
bnutting

Miccah,
The first question you make assumes that those preachers that are in question are false prophets. The second questions are directed to a particular preacher implying the answer to your questions are obvious.

My first question I tried to answer in my previous post without pointing any fingers at those who point fingers. As to your second question, I have heard many of his sermons and my testimony of what I have heard is that his messages do glorify God.

Look at the results of his services. Now let's just assume that everyone who goes forward is either getting saved or healed. That would be a lot of good fruit. Now we know that is probably not accurate however if they all are real and God has worked in all of there lives, it could be said that his ministry reaches many people. However, more accurate might be 20% of those that go forward are lasting fruit.

This fits in with the parable of the sewer where of all the seed that was sown, only the seed that fell on good soil (one's heart) brought fruit and that in the about of 30, 60 and 100 fold. So if only 20% is real and they bring 100 fold of fruit that is still a very good amount of results. In fact if only 2% of the people that went forward are really touched by God and they bring back 100 fold that is still twice as much fruit as was started with. (2% and 100 fold)

I am suggesting you look at the big picture of things instead of the details. Even as a rabbi in the new testament said that if the disciples where false prophets their message will not last long. However, if their message was from God, then who are we to try to stop them. In our case, judge them.

I really don't want to make a long dialog with you about this, (especially since you said you did not read all of my post anyway), I just want to encourage you to take it all in and don't be so quick to follow the critics in judge men who claim to be of God. Let God do that.

Bruce


C
crsschk

Hello Bruce,

Welcome to the site. Have you read through the entirety of this post? Just curious. A couple of notes. One, take note of the dates at the bottom of the posting, this particular thread left off a number of months back, just wanted to point that out.

Secondly, you may not be speaking accurately here if you have not had some of the experience that others have had, I am including myself here.

There is a great deal of problems associated with Benny Hinn not the least being a manipulating of money from his adherents (otherwise known as fleecing the flock) as well as a right accounting of these riches that has him quite wealthy at their expense.

Just the very tip here but you might want to take a read through the concerns that many earnestly have and who are speaking from a great deal of experience. Also try a search here on this site, this is not the only posting in this regard.

B
bnutting

Jacob,
Very good.
I actually have nothing to add.
Keep faithful to His Word as I am sure you will
Bruce

B
bnutting

Crsschk,

Since you implied that I should have read the entire post before posting my own comments I went back and did that. As for how long this post has not been active, I am not sure if I understand why that is relevant. A forum is open to postings and if the "fire" of the thread diminishes because the existing readers have exhausted their comments, I certainly think that a newcomer to this forum, like myself, can contribute something even if outdated and not thorough.

Each of us speaks from our own experiences and the voice of mine is not in any way intended to minimize anothers. I tried very hard not to point the finger at the dividuals who criticized the preachers that have been alledged to be false prophets and I tried to bring the scope of what I had to say to a perspective we should all hopefully agree upon, like that of not judging.

I hear your value in your experience and I would assume that mine has equal value. I have not had the experiences that others have but I would certainly accept exploring the reasons for these bad experiences outside the public nature of this forum.

If I have offended anyone in this forum with anything I have posted in this forum, I humbly apologize.

Bruce

T
Tears_of_joy

Jacob,
Very good.
I actually have nothing to add.
Keep faithful to His Word as I am sure you will
Bruce

Here is the article that Bruce is mentioning, highly recommended for reading, one of the things that deals is one of the most wrongly used verse by promoters of false love in the name of compromise and false gospel:

JUDGE NOT


DO NOT SPEAK AGAINST ONE ANOTHER, brethren. He who speaks against a brother, or judges his brother, speaks against the law, and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge of it (James 4:11).

Do not speak against one another. Do not speak against your brethren. Do not judge your brother. Is that what it says? Look at verse 4 of the same chapter.

You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility to-ward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God (James 4:4).

You adulteresses!

Do not judge your brother!

From the pen of the same apostle, in the distance of a few paragraphs, in almost the same breath that he is saying "do not judge," James calls worldly churches "adulteresses."
SPIRITUAL ADULTERY

James is probably the oldest book of the New Testament. We know from its Hebraic background, from the way it draws on synagogue leadership structure and the Scriptures, that it was obviously written to Jewish Christians.
James is using the Hebrew concept of whoredom or harlotry. Whenever Israel went into idolatry, God calls it "adultery." Idolatry equals spiritual adultery.

Israel was to be God's woman, in much the same way as the church is the bride of Christ. The church being unfaithful is like Israel being unfaithful. That idolatry is called "adultery." It is a very strong term in Hebrew, a very strong concept in the Jewish mind.
BY THEIR FRUIT

Every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:17-20).

Jesus said that you can judge someone by their fruit. In the same chapter, He says, Do not judge lest you be judged (Matthew 7:1).

First it is, "Judge not lest you be judged," yet He goes on to say, "You will know them by their fruits." People involved with Toronto and Pensacola say, "You know Toronto/ Pensacola by its fruit and there is good fruit from it."

Jesus never said that you would know a phenomena by its fruit He said that you would know a person by their fruit.

More than that, even judging a phenomenon by its fruit, you can see that it is not the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit self-control, not drunkenness and lunacy.
CONTRADICTIONS?

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement (John 7:24).
First Jesus says, "Judge not lest you be judged," but then He says, "Judge with right judgement."

James appeared to contradict himself. Now Jesus seems to contradict himself. Jesus said, "Don't do it," then He tells you how; to do it. James said, "Don't do it," straight after he did it.

Therefore you are without excuse, every one of you who passes; judgement, for in that you would judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things (Romans 2:1).

Therefore do not go on passing judgement before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things that are hidden in darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God (1 Corinthians 4:5).

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God (Romans 14:10).

For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this [the guy in question here was involved in an incestuous relationship with his father's wife ], as though I were present (1 Corinthians 5:3).

Over and over, Paul says, "Don't judge." But then he passes judgment.

Jesus says, "Don't judge," but then he says to do it and shows you how.

James says, "Don't judge," but then he does it.

Why the contradictions?
>GOD IS THE JUDGE

If God says in the Bible that something is wrong, and we see someone or some church do that thing, we are not judging them, it is the Word of God that judges.

The Hebrew name, "Jehoshaphat" means Jehovah has judged. That is not me or you judging. We are simply acknowledging, "This is what God says."

James was not calling worldly churches "adulteresses." The Word of God says that, if we are attached to this world, we are an adulteress church.

Paul was not saying that the man involved with his step-mother was immoral. Paul was saying that the Word of God says that person was immoral.

If God says that something is plainly wrong, that is not you or me judging, that is God judging.

That is what it means when it says, "Judge with right judgement." Judging with right judgement means judging with God's judgement, not with our own.

There is a big problem here -- there are things that I would not do, but which are not necessarily wrong for someone else.
> PEOPLE'S OPINIONS

I know of a case where some believers, after their wedding, went to a discotheque. (I would not go to a discotheque unless it was to give out tracts.) I did not feel a peace about going, but I am not going to make a big deal out of it, no matter what my own misgivings or feelings.

I know of another case in Ireland where, at a Christian wedding, people danced. Other people became indignant and began yelling, "You're backsliders," and stormed out of the wedding, creating a big scene. It split a church. That is people judging.

The word "Laodicea" has to do in the Greek with "people's opinions, people's judgements." We have no right to make a judgement of another person, but once God says something is right or wrong,that is not us judging.
ANAKRINO -- TO DISCERN

The Greek word for "judge" is krino.

If you put the prefix "ana" in front of the word "krino," you get a variation on the idea of himself is judged [anakrino] by no man (1 Corinthians 2:15).

God, in His Word, commands us to anakrino. It is not a right; it is not a privilege; it is not something that is advisable. We are commanded to do it. And if you do not discern, you lack wisdom.

There is a reason why false teachers will not stand up publicly and debate someone like Hank Hangraaff or Dave Hunt.

People who will stand up and say, "That is not Scriptural." "That is not right." "I discern that this is not of God," are practicing wisdom.

The reason why Michael Brown backed out of his debate with me over Pensacola, and why Jim McConnell backed out of his debate with me over British Israelism is that they lack wisdom.

Those who practice wisdom, cannot themselves be judged by anyone. Because they anakrino, they cannot be anakrinoed. That is why those others are afraid of them.
DIAKRINO -- TO DECIDE

I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide [diakrino] between his brethren? (1 Corinthians 6:5).

Another prefix which changes the meaning of krino is "dia." Diakrino means to "render a decision."

Is something right or wrong? Is someone's behavior right or wrong morally? Is it Scriptural or unscriptural? Is it of God, or is it of the flesh, or of the devil?

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul commands that we are to diakrino.

We are not permitted to diakrino. We are not advised to diakrino. We are not privileged to diakrino. We are commanded to diakrino. It is not that judging is acceptable. Rather, to fail to judge is unacceptable.
NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO THE SECULAR

About two months ago a woman and her husband contacted us, very distressed. They had a four year old girl who was the victim of semi-penetrated sex in a church. She was molested by a fourteen year old boy, who was supposedly a going to that same church for years.

This little girl was devastated. She drew me a picture, and as soon as I saw the picture, I knew what it was.

Now, I do not have much time for secular psychology. I believe in Biblical psychology, but I do believe in psychology. Biblical psychology is based in the book of Proverbs.

If you want to know why human beings behave and act the way they do, and think the way they do, read Proverbs. That is the best book of sociology and psycholog there is.

I can agree with human psychology to the degree that it is based on Biblical psychology. Secular psychology is godless, and sees man as a two dimensional being. It concerns me that so many evangelicals have gotten into secular psychology and pop psychology.

The little girl drew a picture of a house. Inside the house there were four windows and a door. Each face inside the house was female, there were no male faces.
And she drew a picture of herself, outside. There was no pelvis. There was no pubic area.

That, according to pediatric psychiatrists, is a very frequent characteristic of drawings by children who have been sexually abused.

Children of that age will say things with pictures and drawings that they cannot express verbally. No men and she herself had no mid-section.

Her parents told me, "We don't know what to do. We go to a Baptist church and the pastor can't advise us because this fourteen year old boy is a Christian, and, based on 1 Corinthians, we are not allowed to go to the secular authorities about another believer.

So, according to his parents, we can't tell the police or the court what has happened. We are at our wit's end; we don't know what to do. Our daughter is traumatized."
CIVIL LAW / CRIMINAL LAW

1 Corinthians 6 refers to Roman law. (The systems of jurisprudence in Britain, Australia and America are based on the original model in Rome.) 1 Corinthians 6 is talking about civil law, not criminal law; it is talking about suing someone under civil law, about litigation, it is not talking about criminal law.

It is 1 Corinthians 5 that talks about an immoral person.

I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother [any so-called Christian] if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -- not even to eat with such a one.

For what have I to do with judging [krino] outsiders? Do you not judge [krino] those who are within the church? (1 Corinthians 5:11-12)
We judge those who are within the church, who are guilty of immorality. Do not even associate with the person. Chapter 6 is not talking about criminal law. It is talking about civil law.

That fourteen-year-old should have been dealt with under the criminal law. His identity would have been protected by the court because of his age.

If something was not done for that kid at the age of fourteen, by the age of eighteen his life would have been destroyed. He would have been in an institution for pedophiles.

But this fourteen-year-old had a chance. He should have been brought before the authorities for his own good, and also so that the little girl could have seen justice being done.

If this kind of stuff is not dealt with by the church immediately, what is going to happen when these people get older?

The victims are traumatized for their whole lives. It affects their sexuality when they grow up. And that church could not even give a Biblical answer!

(It was probably a good thing it was a Baptist minister. He could not give a biblical answer, but if it had been a Pentecostal minister, he probably would have tried to cast demons out of the little girl!)

I talked to my friend's wife, who is a Christian pediatric psychiatrist, and I showed the pictures to a Christian pediatric psychologist. They both agreed with the advice I gave the parents. And the parents referred the matter to the criminal authorities.

But what were these other ones saying? "Do not judge." "You cannot go to the authorities about another Christian and you cannot judge another Christian."

What were they doing? Giving people a license to sexually abuse little kids?

This is what happens when the church goes away from God's Word.

We are not allowed to diakrino, we are commanded to diakrino; but it has to do with more than just people.
JUDGING PROPHECY

And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others [diakrino] pass judgement (1 Corinthians 14:29). We are commanded to judge prophecy.

But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

And you may say in your heart, "How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?"

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken.

The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).

Jeremiah 14 and Jeremiah 28 says the same thing. Jesus warned that there would be many false prophets in the last days.

We do not stone them to death any more, but the sin is no less serious. They shall die if they do not repent.

We are not under the law, but under grace; but their "ministries" should be stoned. 1 Corinthians 14:29 does not say that we are entitled to diakrino prophets or prophecies, rather we ar commanded to judge prophets andprophecies.

On this basis, Rodney Howard Browne is a false prophet. On this basis, John Wimber was a false prophet. On this basis, Rick Joyner is a false prophet. And on this basis, Paul Cain is a false prophet.

Now, that is not my judgement. I cannot krino anybody. The things that God has said will krino. I have to anakrino. I have to discern. Is this of God or is this of man?

No, it is not for me to judge. I have to diakrino, render a decision on whether it is morally right or wrong, by biblical standards.

The founders of the Mormon cult and the Jehovah Witnesses were false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen. The Roman Catholic nun, Lucia, from Fatima, in Portugal, is a false prophet; she predicted things that failed to happen. John Wimber and Paul Cain and Rick Joyner (as well as John Kilpatrick, Michael Brown and Gerald Coates) are false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen.

Do I have the right to say that? No, not the right, but the responsibility to say it, the command from my God in heaven to say it. That is not my judgment; it is what God says about these people.

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." If you fail to diakrino, you are failing to keep His commandments. If you fail to diakrino, you will let these same people go on giving people "words" from their own flesh or from Satan. People like that should be brought to account.
JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY

Then I charged your judges at that time, saying, "Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen, and judge righteously between a man and his fellow countrymen, or the alien who is with him" (Deuteronomy 1:16).

That was not advice; that was a command.

Just look at what has happened to our secular society. Everybody is a "victim."

It does not matter that he got blind drunk and he was driving at 90 miles an hour through a village and killed a little kid on a bicycle. He came from a broken home: he is a "victim." It does not matter.

I tried to talk to a prostitute the other day. "I do this because my father hung himself." That was her argument. "I came from a bad situation." I said, "You just told me that your sister goes to university and she came from the same background, and she thinks that what you are doing is terrible. sn't she a victim, too?" Nobody is responsible for their own actions any more in society. But how can we expect society to live up to God's standards, when the church will not live up to God's standards.

I came from a bad situation. My father drank. I was a drug addict by the age of sixteen, and I have no doubt whatsoever that, if Jesus had not intervened in my life, I would be dead by now or a destroyed person of some kind.

It is only because of Him that I went to university and got married and did the things I have been privileged to do.

Left to myself, I would not have amounted to anything. Nonetheless, I am responsible for my own life and my own choices.
SALT AND LIGHT

If the church will not uphold God's standards of responsibility, how can we expect our society to be any different?

If we are not upholding His standards, how can we be salt and light to a society that has turned it's back on God?

No wonder there is crime! The main reason for the moral and social decline of our society is not because of the unsaved people; it is because of the lukewarm church.
KRISIS -- HEAVEN OR HELL

There is a kind of judging that we are not called to do. The Greek word is krisis.

For not even the father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement [krisis] to the Son (John 5:22).

The ultimate determination of heaven and hell belongs to the Lord alone. We never krisis. We are forbidden to krisis.
KRITES -- THE JUDGE OF ALL

But you have come to the general assembly and church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge [krites] of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect (Hebrews 12:23).

God is the judge of all. Yes, there are people who are called to judge, but God is the ultimate Judge of us all.
HUPO-KRITES -- PHARISEES

If we are going to stand up and confront other people in the church about something being wrong, we had better make sure we are not guilty of the same thing, because that is another kind of judging we are forbidden to do.

Here the prefix hupo is added to krites, giving us the English word "hypocrites."

This is what Jesus meant when he said, Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye?

You hypocrite [hupokrites], first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye (Matthew 7:1-5).

We do not krites and we especially do not hupokrites.
KRITIKOS -- TO DISCERN

For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge [kritikos] the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

Cells called erythrocytes are stored in the red marrow of big bones, like the femur and the tibia. On the outside there is the bone and on the inside there is the marrow. But in between there is an area where, even with a microscope, it is very difficult to tellwhere the bone ends and where the marrow begins.

The Bible says that the relationship between soul and spirit is like that. Take prophecy: Was that from someone's imagination, or was it God's Spirit speaking through their spirit? It is very difficult to tell the difference.

Man is a three-dimensional being. You can separate a body from a soul; but you cannot easily tell where the soul ends and the spirit begins.

When people say, "The Lord showed me this" and "God told me that," it is difficult to know if it is someone's imagination or God's Spirit speaking to their spirit. The mind is a good servant, but a dangerous master. Many people overtly demonic, but they are prophesying from the futility of their own mind.

We are called to kritikos -- to discern between the soulish and the spiritual. The Word of God enables us to separate the bone from the marrow, the spiritual from the purely soulish.
SUMMARY

Judge not? What does the Bible say?

1. We never judge from our opinions.
2. We are commanded to anakrino -- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh,or of the devil?"
3. We are commanded to diakrino -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.
4. We do not krisis -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
5. We are sometimes appointed to krites -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.
6. We never, ever, hupo-krites -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.
7. We always kritikos -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit.

Jacob Prasch

M
Miccah


bnutting wrote:


Miccah,
The first question you make assumes that those preachers that are in question are false prophets. The second questions are directed to a particular preacher implying the answer to your questions are obvious.

You are correct. It was not my direct intention, but it is obvious to me after I re-read it. I lumped Benny Hinn in with false teachers/prophets.

My first question I tried to answer in my previous post without pointing any fingers at those who point fingers. As to your second question, I have heard many of his sermons and my testimony of what I have heard is that his messages do glorify God.

Fortunatly or unfortunatly, when someone is on TV every day and preaches a certain kind of message, he/she opens themselves up from rebuke, internationally, from brothers and sisters in Christ.

Look at the results of his services. Now let's just assume that everyone who goes forward is either getting saved or healed. That would be a lot of good fruit. Now we know that is probably not accurate however if they all are real and God has worked in all of there lives, it could be said that his ministry reaches many people. However, more accurate might be 20% of those that go forward are lasting fruit.

This fits in with the parable of the sewer where of all the seed that was sown, only the seed that fell on good soil (one's heart) brought fruit and that in the about of 30, 60 and 100 fold. So if only 20% is real and they bring 100 fold of fruit that is still a very good amount of results. In fact if only 2% of the people that went forward are really touched by God and they bring back 100 fold that is still twice as much fruit as was started with. (2% and 100 fold)

But do the ends justify the means? At what cost is the outcome acceptable? What if Benny Hinns ministries only healed/saved one person? What if his ministry cleared out someones bank account because that person thought that it would buy them a healing/salvation?

Here is a far stretch, but it is on topic. Do you remember Andrea Yates? She killed her children because she wanted them to go to heaven. Did they arrive? I am quite positive, but does that mean that it was ok for her to do what she did? Not at all.

Certain preachers, reagardless if you or I agree with them, preach a false message, gosple and just plain lie. It IS our place to inform people of these messages/preachers. If we don't, we are indirectly supporting their false messages. It ain't pretty, but calling out false teachers/prophets does have to be done. If am preaching a false message, I would hope that someone would correct me. But I am not. I am talking about what the bible says to do and what they are.

I really don't want to make a long dialog with you about this, (especially since you said you did not read all of my post anyway), I just want to encourage you to take it all in and don't be so quick to follow the critics in judge men who claim to be of God. Let God do that.

Bruce, I did read all of your posts, just not the entire thread. Which I will now do. I appologize about not being too clear on that:-)

As for not being a critic, I agree for the most part. I have heard Benny Hinns sermons. I find myself gritting my teeth when I do listen.

One thing is certain. If you have been blessed by the Lord from Benny Hinns message/s, then that is a blessing. The Lord can use anyone to do works of good, regardless of what they believe or teach.

Blessings brother

C
crsschk

As for how long this post has not been active, I am not sure if I understand why that is relevant. A forum is open to postings and if the "fire" of the thread diminishes because the existing readers have exhausted their comments, I certainly think that a newcomer to this forum, like myself, can contribute something even if outdated and not thorough.

It was only just to make note of the time line brother, wasn't sure if you had taken note of it or not and that you had addressed Jeff the last to respond back in August. Nothing to it beyond that.

No offense taken nor granted either.

I do not know that I have ever read a better treatise on the aspects of judging than what Kire posted, outstanding piece there brother. And Bruce, there was a time where like Ginny pointed out where there was much embarrassment and other emotions flowing when I began to come to terms with so much of these things I was then caught up in. It went from there to the pendulumitis of opposite extremes where there was as much if not more bitterness engulfed in what was just as well righteous indignation over the whole matter. As that article well pointed out there is a distinction to be made and for the better part that is the emphasis and heart of those who do speak to it's concerns here.

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