Revelation Chapter 7 Destroys Man-Centered Election

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Here is a problem that perhaps we could look at as it might save some debate later.

Justification is a completely monergistic event, in other words it is completely God worked as God changes the bent of the will and gives faith so He does not force any into faith.

However sanctification is in a sense synergistic, or God works in both to will and do, but man must work out what God works.

The one who trusts Christ for justification, will never fall under the condemnation of the Law again.

This is why grace is such a dangerous thing, because those who are truly regenerated will not seek to use grace as a means to sin, or live ungodly lives. Instead while sin remains within, and there may be defeats in the daily battles, the ultimate war has been won.

Man can never be good enough to be saved, the Law clearly shows us this, and Paul uses the law to show this in the opening chapters of Romans. All mankind knows it is wrong to steal, kill etc.
But then in Romans 10 Paul mentions that something needs to be heard, and that faith would come by hearing it. Of course this is the word of God, or the Gospel. The Gospel alone frees all who are under the weight of knowing they are sinners. Notice Paul does not say that faith cometh by the works of the Law, but by hearing the news that Christ has died for sinners in their place, and that He was raised for justification.

The last thing anyone needs is to be pointed back to self, which sadly much of what we hear nowadays does. The problem is self, but the Law is holy, good, and Spiritual. I however in my natural state am none of those, and even once I am Spiritual, my righteousness is solely based on Christ's merit alone, and not on my obedience, or my prayer time, or my Bible reading, or any other work I do that I use as a means to gain God's love. To do this, is to present an idol before God in place of Christ, and tell God that Christ is not enough for Him to love you, so you must add some work. You may if you wish, but I have a hard enough time remembering my standing in Christ, and battling to keep my flesh under. In other words, I know thw monster that dwells within, and will dwell there until glory swallows it up.

dear (father) abraham :-),

i have just a questions for you brother..

* where does the bible show that man is totally unable to receive Chrhist??

i agree that man is totally depraved, but when did that become that man is unable to choose Christ?? you and me were totally depraved, but the Holy Spirit showed us our great sin and His great Son and we believed, right?? if that is true of all believers alike, then why is it so impossible for man to chose Christ if the Holy Spirit came into the world to convict man of their sinfulness??

i understand that the Father draws men through His Spirit, but that does not change the fact that we had the law written on our heart and our conscience bearing witness. the True Light came into the world and shone in the darkness.

to say that all man is unable to choose Christ is to make the bible confusing and Christ a liar.

matt 11:28 "come unto me, and i will give you rest"

matt 23:37 "o jerusalem, jerusalem...how often i wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING"

you may say "well this sort of choosing Christ limits the Holy One"?? but God has allowed Himself to be limited.

psalm 78:41 "yes, again and again they tempted God, and LIMITED the Holy One of Israel".

abraham, i believe that salvation is totally of God. He sent Jesus to us, has the Holy Spirit convict the world of sin, and gives man the choice to become sons or not. He forgives our sins, justifies us, adopts us, sactifies us, perseveres us, and will ultimately glorify us. but that does not mean that we are unable to choose Him..

that's about it, but thanks for bringing it up..love you man.

by Abe_Juliot on 2007/7/16 2:17:25

It's really simple...

Read this passage.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

First, please carefully notice that you have 144,000 souls that are currently not yet saved. Yet, without a doubt they will be saved. Because God has spoken it. It will come to pass and by no means fail. Not only that! It get's better... God has chosen the exact same "even number" out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel.(12,000 souls per tribe, no more and no less)

Now, these will be saved in the worst of times the world will ever experience. They will be persecuted in shocking ways. There's going to be much horrific suffering for those who remain a christian in those days!

Yet... How is it that not 1 soul is lost of the 144,000 and not 1 soul is lost of each of the 12,000 souls in each of the tribes?

Can you answer that?

You who say that God elects those who elect him...
You who say that we chose God to choose us...
You who say that God elected us because of our decision and choice...
You who say that man has the capabilty and will to cause God to elect him...

Was it their own free will and decision that kept these 144,000 souls saved, or was it God's own free will and decision.

Some might say, "It was both." You may say, "well... they all cooperated with God and agreed to remain saved."

So your basically saying... They all just happened to cooperate with the sovereign LORD and that's why He sovereignly sealed them? (144,000... no more and no less?) That is a gracious and beautiful set of numbers in this passage. Don't you think?

You then have to limit the free will and the soveriegnty of God down to man's free will. (In other words, God can only elect those who elect Him) Which is opposed to... A man will only elect and choose God, if God has chosen and elected that man.

You also have to conclude that God can only do ...what man will let God do (regarding salvation). (In other words, the filthy-rag free will of man is more powerful than the perfect holy grace of God.)

Can't you see? This exalts man above God.

Mormons, Catholics, and cults alike... love this doctrine that exalts the free will of man above the soveriegnty of God (in salvation). Come out from among them and be not a partaker of their deeds.

It must also be noted in the midst of this thread, How does one know if he is elect or has the seal of God? Well, you could read 1 John... This book will either condemn you or comfort you. Condemnation for this who will not repent and believe the gospel. ...and Comfort for those who hate their sin and continue in the purifying hope of the gospel.

You could also meditate on this simple passage.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Godly sorrow is a mark of true repentance to salvation from God's mercy and election.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

These numbers in Revelation chapter 7 are clear and exact. No man and no devil can blot them out. They are the elect of God and they will endure unto the end.

Now, some may say, "It doesn't apply to us... Revelation chapter 7 only applies to Isreal in the Tribulation."

You basically would be saying... They are elect and remain elect (becuase of God's free will). But, we are elect and remain elect (because of our free will).

Can't you see? These are 2 different ways of salvation? One is of man and the other is of God. One gives glory to man and the other gives all the glory to God. One is man-centered and the other is God-centered.

I'm presenting this thread to all those who hold to the doctrines of...

Election is Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faith.

Conditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvation.

Please respond, I would like to hear how you handle Revelation 7 with your theology.

Very well put, brother!

It actually reminds me of a time when as a young believer I asked my pastor if there is such a thing as "luck" from a biblical POV.
He replied:

"To attribute an act of 'luck' to God's sovereign will is worship; but to attribute a sovereign work of God to 'Luck' is blasphemy."

dear saints

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.

dear saints let us not be so presumptuous as to think we can save ourselves. We do not even know we need salvation except God quickens us to it. Christ said to us He is the Way, Truth and Life and no body may come to the Father except through Him. He also said this in John 6:

[b] 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. [/b]

clearly God does know who will not believe...the reason however is not what we think. Those who don't believe don't because of this verse which follows...

[i][b]65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [/b][/i]

Even the Grace to make a decision for Jesus must be extended from the Throne of GOd. Such is the nature of our depravity, it is such that apart from God we are finished. If there was a good thing in us, such that we could decide to come to Christ by ourselves, why is it that we must die completely to ourselves if we want to Live for Christ? Surely God would want to spare that little piece of us by which we came to Jesus? Yet Paul said that in our flesh dewlls no Good thing...he said also that apart from Christ we can do nothing. If we hold this to be true, apart from Christ we can't be saved either.

Paul said in his letters that he is an apostle by the Will (not of men) but of God. Even his coming to salvation required a dramatic Intervention by God without which it would not have happened. Paul says this also:

Phillipians 2

[b]12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. [/b]

We are to obey God and work out our Salvation with fear and trembling and vs 13 explains how it works, it is [i][b]God[/b][/i] who works in us so that we can will (desire) and do His Good Pleasure.

Romans 9 outlines Election as God's Divine Prerogative. He chose Jacob over Esau not because He knew Esau would sell his birthright, but before either could do anything. Really Esau sold his birthright because God rejected him from jump. This is the same with us, our Election was decided from before the setting of the foundations of the earth, in fact in the Revelation, Christ is described as the Lamb Slain from the foundations of the world and this dear saints, hear the Spirit of God as He speaks through me now, is the point of our Salvation. Before Creation, when God Conceived the idea, He determined the Plan of Redemption and Enacted it. Christ was slain then. When we come to Christ in our life, it is the realization of what always was from before the setting of the foundations of the earth. This is why Paul was convinced that nothing could separate us from the Love of God in Christ. This dear saints is the security we have in our Salvation. Salvation was always for the Purposes of God showing Mercy to a creation which would otherwise perish without HIm.

If God didn't Move so drastically in our lives, we would have no hope of Salvation. our free will as we perceive it is not independant of God's Will, it is wraped up in it. Even in our Salvation it is God who Wills so that we can do so our will clearly isn't acceptable before God, even this too must die. That part of self is probably the hardest thing to kill. Saints and brethren, i feel we are disturbed by the idea that God is Sovereign, All-Sovereign such that without God we have no hope. This bothers us because it exposes our helplessness. It shows us we are inadeqate and that there is only 1 thing which we can do, and that is to die. Who wants to die folks? Honestly. Who wants to let go of this reality wherein we appear to have control for something Other, something which has no preview but that we have to be in or out? Not me. However God's Plan for my Life sperceded all that and i bless HIm for it.

i bless God for Romans 9. His Forknowledge isn't just Knowing ahead of time, that is a crutch,a cop out for us to hold onto our perceived independance. No dear saints the Forknowledge of God is His Foreordination of things. Dear saints after God hit me with that, i began to see that message everywhere in the letters of our beloved bro Paul. We who were called...we who were chosen from before the setting of the foundations of the world...who of us were there to do anything that we might earn Salvation or somehow contribute to it? Even where Paul talks about Election, it is always according to God. We do not attain (which is to get by doing something) but we Obtain (to be given). Romans 9:11 speaks of the election of GOd may stand not according to works but according to Him that Calleth. the Election is of GOd...

God doesn't force anyone to the Faith does HE? Tell that to Paul who was struck blind for 3 days...if that hadn't happened, Paul could not have been saved.

perhaps some of you have been imbued with something which allows you to choose Christ without Him choosing you first. i humbly confess i have no such ability and if He hadn't extended Grace to me, i would have been God-Damned. Except for God's Exercise of His Divine Prerogative, i would have been dead from before the setting of the foundations of the world.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name.

p.s. Sis Annie (you shall be called Iron Lass) we seem to disagree on this but according to ROmans 9, we are vessels of Mercy...Praise God for that!

where does the bible show that man is totally unable to receive Christ??

The question is misleading. The Bible says in John 6:44-45 (NASB)
[color=0000FF]44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.[/color]

In these verses we learn that no one can come to Jesus for salvation unless first God the Father draws the person to Jesus. So to answer your question,

where does the bible show that man is totally unable to receive Christ??

But this brings us to the next question: "Is everyone drawn to Christ or are only certain people drawn to Christ?" Let's look at the verses again to see what they say:
[color=0000FF]44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.[/color]

Notice:
1. All who are drawn are raised up on the last day. (I will raise him (him raised = him drawn))
2. All who hear and learn from the Father comes to Jesus.

To summarize: Man cannot respond to God unless God first does a work of grace in a man's heart. God does not perform this work of grace upon every man's heart. I know to some of you this doesn't seem 'fair', but it is biblical. Does this mean that man is not responsible for his actions? No, he is still responsible and he must repent.

Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

Why were they unwilling? This is the question that needs to be addressed especially considering Peter's words in Acts 3:13-18 (NASB)
13"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.
14"But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.
16"And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
17"And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.
18"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled."

Notice that last verse, Peter says that Jesus must have been rejected in order for Christ to suffer. Christ Himself said in Luke 24:25-26:
25And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26"Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?"

When Jesus made His lament over Jerusalem, He knew that they would reject Him. He knew they acted ignorance, but they acted in order to fulfill God's perfect plan of redemption. It is unwise to use this lament as an argument against sovereign election when in fact it displays sovereign election.

Reply to Abraham
I believe scripture is clear that the election of grace is a sovereign act of God
Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, the Hebrews and the apostles were all chosen by God.
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There is an election of individuals to eternal life
(2 Thess. 2:13;
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph. 1:4; 4.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 Pet. 1:2;
2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
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The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God
(Eph. 1:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
John 15:
16. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
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God claims the right so to do
(Rom. 9:
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
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It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of sovereign grace
(Rom. 11:
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Eph. 1:3-6).
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
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All that pertain to salvation, the means
(Eph. 2:
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2 Thess.
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
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as well as the end, are of God
Tim. 2:
24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
1 Cor. 1
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Eph. 2:
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature." Men are elected "to salvation," "to the adoption of sons," "to be holy and without blame before him in love"
(2 Thess. 2:
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Gal. 4:
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph. 1:
4. Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
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The ultimate end of election is the praise of God's grace
(Eph. 1:
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eddie

sis Jeannette

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN

As mentioned elsewhere, I eventually decided both predestination and freewill are true.

that's the same thing God showed me! the 2 seem mutually exclusive but they are employed of God for the Supreme Purpose, the Glory of His Name by the Revelation of His Manifold WIsdom to the powers of the air through the Church.

On this side, our brains can't get around that completely but on the other side it will be 100% clear. so this is what i say, thank God i am a vessel of mercy!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Who gives, Who receives, and who believes? Who keeps who?

John 17:1-21 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Do you think the prayer of Jesus is answered by His and our Father? Ya think?

In Christ: Phillip

Yes, that will be the fruit of our Father, our Brother Jesus our Lord and the Holy Spirit by which we live and move and have our being.

When you see a tree, it has fruit on it, we then can make an educated guess of know truly that it is a peach tree. The Same with what Jesus prayed for, then we are the fruit of the vine and the world will know us by our Love Fruit.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Abraham,

You make an interesting case for Election but as far as it would fit into one’s theology, a plain reading of the text is all that is required.

However, in trying to make a case for Calvin’s doctrine of election I would like to say that election in Scripture is always to a specific end, i.e. inheritance, adoption. Election is never to the general end of salvation. I have never read anywhere that I was saved by election. The doctrine of election, as expressed by Calvin is based on his understanding of the decretive will of God, in that God decrees everything to happen by foreordination.

“But since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.” Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxiii, 6

“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:” Confession of Faith III,

The problem is that Calvinism bases God’s foreknowledge on His decreeing everything beforehand, which is how Calvin understood God to know all things, the same as Augustine.

If this were true, then God cannot know anything unless it was decreed. However, God’s foreknowledge is not based on His decreeing everything before it takes place. He knows all things by virtue of His omniscience, not prescience, and His omniscience is not dependant upon any decree. If God created nothing His knowledge of all things would still be infinite

God knows all things that have happened or will happen, even to the point of would have happened had certain conditions been met as in Matthew 11:21 – 23. He knows what man thinks, has done and will do, under any circumstance; this comes from His omniscience, not from any decree beforehand. God knew man would disobey. That does not mean He decreed man to disobey for his own sovereign pleasure.

“The decree, I admit, is dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree… God not only foresaw the fall of the first man and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it,” Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxiii, 7.

Man sinned all on his own, without any decree of God, by his own lust. James 1:14, 15.

God’s sovereignty is not the causation of all that happens. Calvin believing God to decree everything that happens raises serious issues. The problem of evil was decreed of God. By causing man to sin and then punishing man for that sin calls the character of God into question. God predestined other religions to deceive the people. God decrees man to murder, to rape, to thieving, and to lawlessness in the world.

And one is to believe all this so that God can remain sovereign?

Was He not sovereign when Satan rebelled?

Was He not sovereign when man rebelled?

Was he not sovereign when Israel rebelled?

My assurance does not lie in the sovereignty
( power ) of God; it lies on the nature of God, in that He is just, and merciful, He is faithful and true and above all He loves me; for God is love

The Decretive Will of God is the plan of salvation through Jesus Christ and the judgment of the wicked. The Perceptive Will of God is what He desires of us. The Permissive Will of God is in what he does not prevent. It is with this understanding that all falls within the sovereign will of God. God permits many things to happen. This does not mean He decreed them to happen.

God does not force men to sin; neither does He force men to be saved.

God’s sovereignty is not the causation of all that happens. Calvin believing God to decree everything that happens raises serious issues. The problem of evil was decreed of God. By causing man to sin and then punishing man for that sin calls the character of God into question. God predestined other religions to deceive the people. God decrees man to murder, to rape, to thieving, and to lawlessness in the world.

The danger with what you are posting his is that you blame God for man's sin, when man sinned at the instigation of Satan. God could have never allowed sin to enter the picture, but He did, because Christ must come as He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

God never made man sin as God cannot be tempted with evil, netiher does he tempt any man, and as you posted each man sins when he is drawn by his own lusts. But God did not make man evil at all, rather man was made good, but after the fall, man became incapable of spiritual life, as he is dead in sin, and a slave to sin. but God is not to be blamed for this, Adam and Eve were the only two humans who had a truly free will, and they chose to sin, they chose to believe the lie.

The following is taken from "The History and theology of Calvinism" by Dr. Curt Daniel
[i]God cannot be blamed for sin - He is not the” author of evil”. But it was equally true that God foreordained the existence of sin in a blameless manner for His own glory - He permitted sin to exist. Now this is the paradigm for providence and temptation. Simply put, what God does in time through providence is a reflection of what He did in eternity through predestination. That is, God now permits sin but He does not tempt us to sin.

But the sovereign God is in control of providence and all creatures. Hence, He uses Second Causes or means to carry out His purposes. In other words, God Himself does not tempt; He simply allows others to do the tempting. He sovereignly allows Satan and the world and our sinful natures do the tempting. That is their nature. God simply uses those natures, while His nature remains holy. And in this way He tests us to see what is in us (Deut, 8:2). God tests us by sovereignly permitting us to be tempted.

We see this illustrated in two cases in Scripture. First, 2 Sam. 24:1 says, “The anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel and He moved David against them to say, ‘Go, number Israel and Judah “(KJV). The parallel account in I Chron. 21:1 says, “And Satan stood up against
Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.” Now some translation! render the first, “it incited David”, and others suggest that the “he” is really Satan. Not so, for Satan is not even
mentioned. No, God incited David. But how? Not directly, for God does not tempt to evil. God
was testing David. So God let Satan tempt David to do evil. David lacked faith at this moment
and succumbed to temptation. He failed the test. Our point is that God used Satan to do the
tempting.

The second case is more well known. Matt. 4:1 says, “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit
into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.” Mark 1:12 is more direct: “the Spirit impelled
Him”. The Father and the Spirit were testing Jesus. But neither the Father nor the Spirit tempted Jesus. They simply allowed Jesus to be tempted by Satan. The Son of David passed the test. He had faith. The way to pass God’s tests is by faith, which quench Satan’s temptations (cf. Eph. 6:16).

3. Concurrence with Moral Evil.
A. This logically raises the question of God’s, involvement when we fail the test. How does God
providentially influence the human will so that it sins, yet God does not force it to sin? Let us
recall what was said in our study of providence. You may recall that we stressed that God is the
First Cause of all things. But He also uses Second Causes. Sin is a Second Cause. Satan and
our sinful natures are Second Causes. Hence, God guarantees a certain result, but the cue ball
does not touch the eight ball. Theologically, we say that God is the “sufficient cause” of sin but
not the “efficient cause”.
B. Remember that God ordains sin differently than He does good. Similarly, when we do good,
it can be said that God is doing good through us (cf.Phil. 1:6, 2:13). But when we sin, it cannot
be said that God is sinning through us. Actually it is quite the reverse - He is sovereignly
permitting us to fall. He simply leaves us to ourselves.
C. God can restrain from sin. Gen. 20:6, “I also kept you from sinning against me.” Yet God is
under no compulsion to keep any or all of us from sinning against Him. He was under no
compulsion to prevent sin’s origin; He is under no compulsion in time to prevent sin’s
commission. Just as He sovereignly ”permitted” sin to enter, so He sovereignly - and justly -
“permits” sin to continue by withdrawing His strong arm that alone can prevent sin. Acts17:16,
“And in the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own way.” He was sovereign and holy; they were responsible and guilty.[/i]

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved. AMEN.

sis annie

you bring up the Point on Love. What is Love? Are we considering Love in light of our own understanding of it? Are we viewing Love according to the word of God? if so are we understanding Love in light of our own understanding of the word or as a result of the Revelation of the Love of GOd in our own lives by His Holy Spirit. the former can't be a substitute for the latter and i fear with many things, our understanding is tainted in this way. Sure we understand the scriptures with our heads but have they been inwrought in us?

What is the Love of God if not something absolutely incomprehensible to us, even repulsive because it is so unlike anything...it is Other. it's not "like" our love only better, it's Other. Could it be that our love wouldn't put pressure but that God's Love Demands Allegiance? Perhaps our love doesn't necessitate forsaking of all and GOd's Love Demands an abandoning of all we know or think we know even about Him?

Somehow i feel our perception of the Love of God remains warped and until it is righted, things such as this will throw us for a loop.

May God indeed Reveal His Love to us and make us Understand it that we may Understand Him. AMEN.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Is it not logical though(yes God gave us brains for a reason :-) ) to understand that behind all that goes on in the world, all things are working towards God's end?

While he has many tools at his disposal to accomplish this, He is never the author of it, as He works with the base desires of fallen men to do His will. Similarly Joseph told his brothers, " But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Gen 50:20)

I could post a very long list of Scriptures, but I believe this one suffices for the time being-
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

It is a difficult thing to understand that we are not creators, nor are we equal to God at all. The angels marvel at God's grace because man is so wicked, and yet grace is given that men may be children of God!

There are two ways to look at things-
1) From man up, meaning that the start is with man, and how all revolves around him. Of course there is a name for this, it is humanism where man is the be all, end all. Ultimatley what happens is God is lessened to a big man, and since he is just a big man, we can come to him as our buddy, and we can dictate to him what we think is fair and right. this also ends up creating open theism, where God really doesn't have a set course or plan, and his purposes are thwarted and changed based on the decisions of men.

In other words, God must have a plan b, or c because man's choices will throw off God's plans.

2)From God down- Here we begin with God as the sovereign Creator of the universe. We are all as created things, not the Creator. Man exists for God's purpose, creation was made to bring Christ into the world and redeem men. God orchestrates, and carries out all His good pleasure, and noone can stop it or check it. Man is really nothing more than dirt that if God had not breathed life into, there would be no life.

This would be horrible if God was a merciless tyrant, but we know He is not. All He does is based upon foreordination, and providence. Of course some will say, "where was God when such and such happened?" He was there, and usually after tragedies, we see Him work, some are brought to repentance, others grow even harder to the things of God.

To bottom line all of this, man never has, and never will make God his debtor. This means that God is obligated to save none at all, but in His great mercy He saves some, and for this we should rejoice, and not use this as a point to declare God as unfair, or worse yet make Him into a creature like us.

sis Annie

Greetings dear sister in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

you said:

To say one has a twisted view of GOD's Divine Agape Love is to say a person has not read the whole Bible.

initially i was asking if perhaps our understanding of the Love of God was off. toward the end i felt that perhaps this is so. One could read the whole bible and it profit him nothing except the Spirit of God illuminate the word for him. There are many who have read the scriptures and remain in bondage yet so this implies something deeper. Sure we could read and understand to some degree with our minds sis Annie but it seems to me the scriptures are more than that. There must be an inward working of the Spirit of GOd which evidences itself in what we do, think and speak.

i guess i wonder if we think the Love of God is something we can understand with out minds and that be sufficient for God's purposes...i guess i wonder how can we claim to understand something so Vast :-? The Love of God has nothing we can compare it to that we know of, that anyone knows of hence it being the sign to the world that we are His, by how we Love one another.

do we really understand His Love in the inner man or simply with our minds?

Grace and Peace be ours in JEsus' Name. AMEN.

I just wanted to post two Scriptures

1 John 4:19 We love him, [b]because he first loved us.[/b]

He did something first, none can get around this, as it is clearly put here.

Next-
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, [b]of the same lump[/b] to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Now the question here is not concerning Israel, but the lump is mankind. The lump is the same, there is nothing differing in it to make the Potter make one a vessel unto honour, and another a vessel unto dishonour. So there are two questions we must answer-

Is this lump fallen, or unfallen?

What, or who makes the difference in what the clay is made into?

P.S. Those who attribute this passage solely to the election of Israel please realize that an elect nation is made of elect people, and also this passage uses individuals to bring out a point of God's freedom in what he does with his creation. If you insist on that interpretation, please tell me what nation Pharaoh is an illustration of, and why Paul closes the chapter speaking of the election of the Gentiles, and why Paul would then say this-
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on [b]the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

-The "us" is the church is it not?
-Does Paul say that the "vessels of mercy" are "whom He has called"?
-What does Romans 8 say about those who are called?
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 [b]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

Done deal, end of story. There is no mention here of them falling away, or being lost. But instead a glorious description of God's keeping power over His people.

The key words is whosoever will.

But the very point is that without God intervening, noone would.

Consider this, two men read the Bible, there is nothing differing in them, they are in all ways equal(similar upbringing etc.) One believes, the other says, "this is garbage" and tosses the book aside.
What is the difference?
Who caused the difference?
Why does one believe and the other not?
Just so we agree too, who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgement to come? As these are necessary for one to truly be justified.

And as for John 3:16, the emphasis is always wrongly placed on "whosoever", but that is not the main thrust of this passage. If you honestly look at it, you will see that the "whosoever" must do something, namely believe. It does not say, "whosoever will not perish."

As for the Revelation verse that says, "whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life freely", we must understand that only the Spirit can produce spiritual thirst, and hunger for righteousness. Natural man could care less about truly being righteous before God, and will seek a multitude of ways to have his own righteousness.

See the point is, that no man will come unless God creates that urge to come.

Roaringlamb,

Thank you for your reply. You make an interesting case. You said, “But God did not make man evil at all, rather man was made good.” Good and evil are moral concepts that neither Adam nor Eve had before they partook of the forbidden fruit. Both were innocent in the Garden before their eyes were opened.

Dr. Curt Daniel said, “God cannot be blamed for sin - He is not the” author of evil”. But it was equally true that God foreordained the existence of sin in a blameless manner for His own glory - He permitted sin to exist.”

Hmmm, God decrees sin to exist, then permits it to exist. Which is it please?

The above is the same contradiction as is found in the Confession of Faith below also known as the Doctrine of Decrees

“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”
Confession of Faith III, 1

It appears God does not allow anything to happen, this would include second causes, all things being unchangeably ordained. Or is it only some things that are unchangeably ordained?

If God in eternity unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass He is the First Cause of all things by decree. There is no liberty or contingency of second causes as God has foreordained these as well, or did He not ordain all that comes to pass?

What does John Calvin say in regard to the First Cause of the fall of man?

“The decree, I admit, is dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree… God not only foresaw the fall of the first man and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it,” Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxiii, 7.

“I confess that all descendants of man fell by the Divine will” and that “we must return at last to God’s sovereign determination, the cause of which is hidden in himself” Institutes of the Christian Religion III, xxiii, 4.

It appears Calvin believed God caused man to sin for His own pleasure.

As to your illustrated cases of second causes

In the first case of 2 Sam. 24:1 and I Chron. 21:1. The first cause was not God but David’s pride. He had won a number of great victories and already was putting his confidence of strength and security in the number of his army instead of the living God. Also in connection to a census is the matter of the redemption money
( Exodus 30: 11 – 16 ) and a warning of plague if the people ignored the giving of the redemption money when numbered and this is just what happened. God also gave David almost ten months to repent ( vs. 8 ) and even confronted him through Joab. The point is that sin was already in David’s heart before God did anything.

In the second case of Matt. 4:1 and Mark 1:12 “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit
into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.” “The Spirit impelled Him”. The Father and the Spirit were testing Jesus. But neither the Father nor the Spirit tempted Jesus. They simply allowed Jesus to be tempted by Satan. The Son of David passed the test. He had faith. The way to pass God’s tests is by faith, which quench Satan’s temptations (cf. Eph. 6:16).

I like it and it agrees nicely with the point that I have been saying all along.

The Doctrine of Decrees says that God in eternity past foreordained by decree all of this, including the results of the temptations of Jesus. If all of this was decreed to the specific end result then the temptations of Jesus mean absolutely nothing. That is what I am disagreeing with; especially in regards to the original topic of election to salvation via predestination which is what Bro. Abraham was driving at. God knows all things; it does not mean He decreed all things.

Question, is the term ‘foreknowledge’ really applicable to God, being omniscient, or is it written for our understanding because time for man is linear?

Something to think about

God bless

Question, is the term ‘foreknowledge’ really applicable to God, being omniscient, or is it written for our understanding because time for man is linear?

It is applicable to God and us. God from all eternity foreknew (relationally - Matt 7:23) certain people and did not foreknow other people. Why foreknow and not just know? Because God knew some people relationally before they knew Him and before they ever existed.

layman,

An example of all this is found in Genesis 50:15-21.

15When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him." 16So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, "Your father gave this command before he died, 17'Say to Joseph, Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father." Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19But Joseph said to them, "Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones." Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

We see that a sinful event happened--the selling of Joseph into slavery. The brothers meant it for EVIL, but God meant it for GOOD.

How can God take a sinful, evil event and use it for good? Remember, Joseph did not say that God decided to intervene after the evil deed was done, No, God worked for good "to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

This is what we have a hard time grasping in our human minds:
- How can God mean for good the fall of Adam?
- How can God mean for good the selling of Joseph into slavery?
- How can God mean for good sinful acts of man?

Notice that I am not saying that God is the author of evil, man commits the acts and are responsible for his actions, but "God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28 NASB)

bro Jaysaved

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

JaySaved wrote:

Question, is the term ‘foreknowledge’ really applicable to God, being omniscient, or is it written for our understanding because time for man is linear?

It is applicable to God and us. God from all eternity foreknew (relationally - Matt 7:23) certain people and did not foreknow other people. Why foreknow and not just know? Because God knew some people relationally before they knew Him and before they ever existed.

it seems to me the point of our Salvation was never in this life. In this life we only realize we are saved. Christ was slain from the foundations of the world which was the point of our Salvation by Divine Election. From even before creation, God had long-since formulated His plan of Redemption. This is the Security we have in Salvation. This is why Paul believes that nothing can separate us from the Love of GOd in Jesus. Everywhere in Paul's letters, he says we are called or chosen from before the setting of the foundations of the world. After readings Romans 9 and God Illuminating it, i began to see this Divine Election for what it is, an excercise of Divine Prerogative because nothing else could be sufficient for Salvation.

i bless God He's made me vessel of Mercy...from before the setting of the foundations of the earth!

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

bro Jay

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved from before the setting of the foundations of the earth. AMEN.

This is what we have a hard time grasping in our human minds:
- How can God mean for good the fall of Adam?
- How can God mean for good the selling of Joseph into slavery?
- How can God mean for good sinful acts of man?

indeed bro...i say simply that God is God and as such can do as He pleases. Just when we think we understand Him and want to rest, He throws a curveball and we have to rethink it all...This keeps us in a state of awe of Him and always pressing into Him lest we think we can rest on our laurels...

being kept in this state is a blessed thing lest we become lethargic or bored with HIm. it also puts us in our place, exposing our indaequacy before Him, to understand or explain Him...makes me say like bro Ezekiel when asked if the bones could live, "Lord, thou knowest..."

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Here are some points to consider in this discussion.
1)God knows all, and has predetermined all things to bring them to His appointed end.

2)God does not know all things, and is like a great chess player who is always one step ahead of his enemy, or in this case His creation.

3)God has left all things open ended, and things are not headed toward a specific end.

4)Man is the one who determines God's actions by his decisions, thus creating a diety-like creature.

Now which of these is Biblical?

Isaiah 45:5-13 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

We can try to twist this all we want, but if sin and evil can exist without God, then there must be another God who created them. There is only one that can say what sin is, certainly not man. There is only one that can judged evil, that is the one that created it. God created sin and evil and controls them uses them and makes them do for His good pleasure. Praise God that He has chosen to be a loving and wanting God, that is wanting to be a Father to His Children. Is it not His own will to choose whom He wants as Children. He wants all to come to Him as Father, but they would not. So God wants to be a Father, He will be a Father and He will birth whom He will to be Children in His House. He will see to it, that I am ready for that House. He has planned it before the foundation of the earth and let us be assured we will be son's of God.

Either God is God and the Father of His own children or He is not. He is justified in doing anything He wants to make His household be exactly what He wants it to be. He has put His only begotten Son in us to give us the Nature of Himself and make us His son's.

In Christ, a son of My Father, who created me and made me and gave me birth: Phillip

Either God is God and the Father of His own children or He is not. He is justified in doing anything He wants to make His household be exactly what He wants it to be. He has put His only begotten Son in us to give us the Nature of Himself and make us His son's.

Amen dear brother.

I have been deeply humbled whenever I take time to think of the greatness of God. He is not just merciful, He is all merciful, He is not just mighty, but almighty.

It is a shock to our minds to think that God has, and does curently rule/d the entire galaxy, even realms we shall never see, and yet, and yet He would care about us? Amazing isn't it.

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen

I would like to post two verses that we would do well to look upon in this discussion.

Firstly-
Jeremiah 1:5 [b]Before I formed thee[/b] in the belly [b]I knew thee;[/b] and [b]before thou camest forth[/b] out of the womb [b]I sanctified thee,[/b] and [b]I ordained thee a prophet[/b] unto the nations.

Secondly-
Galatians 1:15 But [b]when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,[/b]

Now in both of these we see a person being set apart before they are born for a purpose only God knows. Also note this is independent of any foreseen works, especially in Paul's case where his works would never have merited salvation.

In the Galatians passage separated is the word aphorizo, and here is the definition according to Thayers,
ἀφορίζω
aphorizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to mark off from others by boundaries, to limit, to separate
1a) in a bad sense: to exclude as disreputable
1b) in a good sense: to appoint, set apart for some purpose

In the Jeremiah passage, the word for sanctified is qâdash, and here is the definition from Strong's,

qâdash
kaw-dash'
A primitive root; to be (causatively make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally): - appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy (-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify (-ied one, self), X wholly.

From both of these alone it is safe to say that God's foreknowledge is a bit more than just looking down the corridors of time, but instead is based upon His good pleasure, and in accordance with what will bring Him glory.

Amen,

That Glory for us is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

This perfection will be His Life in us throughout all eternity.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

Can't you see? These are 2 different ways of salvation? One is of man and the other is of God. One gives glory to man and the other gives all the glory to God. One is man-centered and the other is God-centered.

How much more glory does God recieve when men come to him through free will. The grace of God is by no means irresistible. He doesn't force anyone to obey. When the Gospel is preached and mans hears and is moved by the Holy Spirit, he can either believe and be saved or harden his heart.

Yes, the Holy Spirit will draw us to Christ, but we must respond. Either recieve life through Christ or continue in spiritual death with an even harder heart.

Its like Grannie said,

He does ~ we do

He will do his part and He expects us to do ours. When we do ours He recieves all the more glory.

with love-TimmyJOe

God can receive no glory from the free will of man, for they would not receive Him, but because of Him, as many as do receive Him by the Power of the Holy Spirit, He gave them power to become son's of God.

John 1:5-17 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

None would choose Him by any will of the flesh.
The flesh will always deny Him unless the Holy Spirit quicken it and give that we might receive, not choose.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip wrote:

There is only one that can say what sin is, certainly not man. There is only one that can judged evil, that is the one that created it. God created sin and evil and controls them uses them and makes them do for His good pleasure.

John 8:44

You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.

According to this Scripture we find that Satan is the author of the lie. He is the father of evil.

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
Jam 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
Jam 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Jam 1:16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

According to Scripture, God does not tempt with evil.

So how does this precept compare to what you have stated above?

In Christ
Jeff

Christinyou wrote:
God can receive no glory from the free will of man,

If I program my computer to praise me, that is worth nothing, however, if my wife praises me from her own free will without anything from my part accept that I show her who I am, that is infanitly graeter than my computer.

Free will of Man glorifies God more than it would if He did it all!

How can He receive glory from dead men's bones, that are in hell. That is where all would be except for Christ and the Grace of God. He did it all and that ALL in in Christ. Then we have the will to do what God would want, that is the Love from someone that understands what He has done and wants to return that Love and obedience because He first loved us and Gave Jesus Christ for us. Now my Love is in the realm of God's Love and now I can freely give it back to Him. Before Christ in me that was not possible.

Romans 5:5-8 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

In Christ: Phillip

Logic, may I share another vantage with you?

Imagine that in my possession was $10,000. I proceeded to spend this on gambling, lewdness, and other manners of sin until I had nothing left of that original sum.

Later I discovered that many of my deeds were against the law and the courts determined to fine me $10,000.

Is it just for the judge to expect something of me that I do not have to give? Yes, because the deficiency is owning to myself.

God is righteous to expect perfect holiness and willingness, though no one can give it, because the extensive corruption of their will is the results of sinfulness that He did not cause.

The book of Romans says plainly that in Adam all sinned... we were born of his spiritual character, curruptions and corruptors in the face of God.

God is just to regenerate whomsoever He wills, just as He did with John the Baptist in the womb. If, however, the Lord suffers any man to live for several years that man will inevitably manifest his corruptions and unwillingness to serve the TRUE God.

Thank God that common grace has been afforded by which we can call the worst sinner to humble himself in reading the word and praying. God often uses this means as the method of sovereign grace.

To answer the question further, God does not receive glory from making robots. He receives glory in Christ by calling dead men to live, setting captives and slaves free, by opening the eyes of the blind, and translating some from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

Man was created with an "unbaised will" and in sin we have acquired "corrupt wills" that will anything but to be totally subject to Christ and free from sin.

The problem is not that men are born without "free will", but that their wills are of such a nature that they only "will to rebel" against God in truth.

We have only 2 options. 1. We are of our father the devil. 2. We are of our Father God.

It all comes down to in whom you believe. Adam believed Satan and Satan ruled the whole earth, "the prince of the power of the air". On top of that He was the ruler of all mankind's souls' and by his spirit in us we were thrown out of God's family.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Christ on the Cross is the only One that defeated the nature of the children of wrath.

Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Who is the only one that can stop this ownership because of the first Adam and turn to the ownership of the paid price, the the One we believe, if so be it that we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the old man is dead, the new man is life in Christ Jesus.

Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

2Ti 2:26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Those that are Christs' can only be snared by the devil, they cannot ever be under his oppression as father ever again, we can stay out of the snare of the devil and never will loose the destruction of the Satan of the old man for in Christ all things are become new.

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

In Christ: Phillip

We must distinguish between salvation and working out our salvation. It is God who brings us to salvation, nothing of man. In working out our salvation in Christ in whom (we) live and move and have our being, we have the responsibility and the capacity now that we are born again to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Yes that is WORK, and that work will show our faith which is in Christ Jesus. Like James said I will show you the Faith that has been given to me by the works I do. These works are not to get salvation, for no works can get us salvation, but these works are the works of our salvation in Christ Jesus. Now we can do all thing in Christ Jesus our Lord, and these works are the works of Him who loved us and gave Himself for us. Even our works are as His works, He has said they are, But be assured they are works. Now, "I can show you my faith by my works". The Love of Christ is now the motivation work ethic and we can show that we are Christian by our love-works, which are wrought in Christ Jesus.

I cannot attain my salvation by my works but I can attain perfection by the works I do after I am saved. Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

Dead works are my own works, now leaving aside these dead works let us go on into perfection by the works we are capable of in Christ Jesus.

Love-works, "let us love one another even as He has love us". Which we are capable of now that the birthing has taken place by God the Father.

Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Who heard Him? By direct revelation of Jesus Himself? Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

How do we get it? Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Is He revealed in you? "Ask and you will receive, seek and it shall be opened to you".

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

How are we going to be judged? By this Gospel.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Then our works are pleasing to God.

In Christ: Phillip

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:12-21 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

In Christ: Phillip

Romans 10:17-19 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Faith = hearing by the word of God.

Word: Strong's Greek Dictionary
4487. rhema
Search for G4487 in KJVSL
rhma rhema hray'-mah
from 4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specially),; by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever:--+ evil, + nothing, saying, word.

This is the written word of God, "have they not heard", this is what happens without the living Word Himself when He is not born again and is not in the believer.

This is what happens when the Word Himself is born again in the believer.

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Word: Strong's Greek Dictionary
3056. logos
Search for G3056 in KJVSL
logoV logos log'-os
from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

This Word is necessary, that the Faith of the Son of God might lead to salvation.

The word of God written and taught by a preacher and who must send him? The Word Himself, the Person of who the Word is, the Living Word Himself.

One is the written word and the other is the living Word Himself. One for teaching by the Holy Spirit through a preacher and the other The living Word Himself born again by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father unto salvation.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
How can He receive glory from dead men's bones, that are in hell. That is where all would be except for Christ and the Grace of God. He did it all and that ALL in in Christ. Then we have the will to do what God would want, that is the Love from someone that understands what He has done and wants to return that Love and obedience because He first loved us and Gave Jesus Christ for us. Now my Love is in the realm of God's Love and now I can freely give it back to Him. Before Christ in me that was not possible.

Romans 5:5-8 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

In Christ: Phillip

theopenlife wrote:
Imagine that in my possession was $10,000. I proceeded to spend this on gambling, lewdness, and other manners of sin until I had nothing left of that original sum.

Later I discovered that many of my deeds were against the law and the courts determined to fine me $10,000.

Is it just for the judge to expect something of me that I do not have to give? Yes, because the deficiency is owning to myself.

God is righteous to expect perfect holiness and willingness, though no one can give it, because the extensive corruption of their will is the results of sinfulness that He did not cause.

The book of Romans says plainly that in Adam all sinned... we were born of his spiritual character, curruptions and corruptors in the face of God.

God is just to regenerate whomsoever He wills, just as He did with John the Baptist in the womb. If, however, the Lord suffers any man to live for several years that man will inevitably manifest his corruptions and unwillingness to serve the TRUE God.

Thank God that common grace has been afforded by which we can call the worst sinner to humble himself in reading the word and praying. God often uses this means as the method of sovereign grace.

If I program my computer to praise me, that is worth nothing, however, if my wife praises me from her own free will without anything from my part accept that I show her who I am, that is infanitly graeter than my computer.

Free will of Man glorifies God more than it would if He did it all!

your computer cannot love you. All it can do is say it loves you. You knowing that it is just silicone chips and circuits. God gives us the capacity to love Him back because He loved us first. That is all He ever wanted. Son's that love Him. You cannot give your computer Life, only programming and electricity.

Are we just computers? If so we are God's computers and He can do what He wants with us.
But I don't think so. We are not God.

I choose to thank Him and love Him even though He has to teach me how to do it and give me the ability to do so, by becoming my Birthing Father and putting His Seed in me.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
I choose to thank Him and love Him

Therefore, according to your doctrin, it still is not you with your heart, you are a computer with He, Himself still doing it all; no glory.

The love that is in me by the Christ that is in me is the only love that God sees. So if I choose to love God that is only obeying what God intended the Christ in me to be. The One that can love Him the only way He can receive it. That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. God has only dealt with two people when it comes to His plan of Salvation that is the First Adam and the last Adam. One of Flesh/soul and one of Spirit. So If I choose to love God then all I am doing is obeying the Spirit of Christ that is in me, that gives me the ability and capacity to do it. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me."

So your analogy is out of context.

Loving the Father By the Christ in me, which is our spiritual worship and only reasonable service.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. Only acceptable by the Christ that is in me.

In Christ: Phillip

Abe_Juliot wrote:
Has anyone had an explaination for these numbers?

Josephs is also listed along with his two sons. The Bible tells us Joseph gave his birthright (which should have been Reubens’ [b]1Chron 5:1[/b] [color=990000]Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.) to his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.[/color] Even though his two sons had the same land they are often spoken of as two separate tribes. Jacob also gave Ephraim the blessing and not Manasseh, who is the eldest, but we see Manasseh here and not his brother.

Priests never inherited any land; [b]Josh 14:3[/b] [color=990000]For Moses had given the inheritance of two tribes and an half tribe on the other side Jordan: but unto the Levites he gave none inheritance among them.[/color] The tribe of Levi is included here when they were never included in inheritance before; the reason is because we are a holy priesthood and a royal priesthood [b]1Peter 2:5[/b] [color=990000]Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.[/color] [b]1Peter 2:9[/b] [color=990000]But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:[/color]

This analogy does not have Dan probably because of Idolatry. In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn’t add or leave a Patriarch out.

It then says that each one of them was sealed. A seal is made from wax that has been imprinted on with a signet ring. Today we use our name as our seal. Since it is a unique way of writing our name, it is a personal seal that we call our signature. We will only put our signature on thing that we agree to or approve of. This is saying that God has put his approval on them. [b]2Corinth 1:22[/b] [color=990000]Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.[/color] [b]Eph 1:13[/b] [color=990000]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,[/color] [b]Eph 4:30[/b] [color=990000]and grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.[/color]

This is how the Tribes are placed in Revelation 7:5-8
I will put the tribes’ actual placement number to where it should be it the order of their birth

The first name is Judah. #4.

The second name is Reuben. #1.

The third one is called Gad. #8.

The fourth name is Asher. #9.

The fifth name is Naphtali. #10.

The sixth name is Manasseh.

The seventh name is Simeon. #2.

The eighth name is Levi. #3.

The ninth name is Issachar. #6.

The tenth named is Zebulon. #5.

The eleventh is Joseph. #11.

Remember, there is no tribe of Joseph. He gave his inheritance to his sons.

The twelfth is, Benjamin. #12

This is the true Israel of God [b]Gal 6:16[/b] [color=990000]And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.[/color] (the Church and saved Israel). When the time of the gentiles is complete, then God will move His attention to Israel once again then Israel will be completed and saved. [b]Rom 2:29[/b] [color=990000]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/color] [b]Rom 11:15-32[/b] [color=990000]For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? :16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stands by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.[/color]

What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else. The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature.
Let’s do some math.
12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

bro Logic you said:

This analogy does not have Dan probably because of Idolatry. In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn’t add or leave a Patriarch out.

Really God would list Israel as He sees fit which may not be in order of birth or inheritence. In the Revelation there is mention is Israel (3 times i think) as a listing of 12 tribes, the composition of names changes each time. i would say that since Jesus told John that this was Israel, then in each case, it is indeed ISrael. The fact that the word says 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel to me means that this is Israel being talked about. We tend to want to make things which are probably better understood literaly into allegory and end up with fuzzy ideas on things. Judah is listed first because from Judah came most of the kings of Israel, 2 of note are David and his descendant, Christ.

What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else.

:-? i always thought that heard 144000 and it was 144000...i don't really see any other way to interpret 144000 other than, well 144000.

you also said:

The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature. 12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.

bro, i don't think this is right at all. God forgive me if i am wrong and set me straight, and if you are in error may He set you straight. AMEN. There is yet another 144000 which is mentioned in the Revelation; this being 144000 from the earth, these are firstfruits and are mentioned in Revelation 14. This is the 144000 which belong to the Lamb and are redeemed from the earth which i believe is a reference to the gentiles of the world. These are said to be virgins while the 144000 from the 12 tribes are not. i believe that the 144000 from Israel belong to the Father as they are not said to follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and that they are called out of Israel.

you also said this:

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

ok, if this is where the rapture takes place, then it must be after the tribulation. Rev 7 says:

[b] 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. [/b]

and then continues:

[i][b]And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/b][/i]

to me that seems to suggest a post trib rapture, a rapture after much suffering by which we are purged. The rapture is preceded by tribulation, great tribulation so i don't think it can happen at any moment as many say and i fear a great falling away will occur when we are found in tribulation.

anyhow if this group of saints, this great multitude is in heaven already while yet many saints are on earth dying during the trib, we need to rethink how we read the Revelation and indeed all scripture. i believe strongly that God showed it to me that the Revelation is not to be read as though it is linear. It is to some degree but the fullness of this book and the whole scripture can be found only when we look at it from God's Perspective; that is past present and future are all before Him at once. bro Logic scripture is not logical at all unless we look at it from that Perspective.

Paul says that we are seated in Heavenly Places right now so Heaven is not a thing/place to be waited for, it already [i][b]is...now[/b][/i]The Revelation says that Christ was slain from the setting of the foundations of the world. So when God thought to create, Christ was slain then for the redemption of creation and that is the point of our Salvation. We were Saved, we are being Saved and will yet be Saved just as surely as Christ was, is and is to come. We as His Church are like Him in this Respect also. We were in Heaven at the time of Christ's slaying before the setting of the foundations of the earth, we are seated in Heavenly Places now with Him, and we will go with Him to be where He is when He returns. When God opened this up to me, The Revelation made all the sense in the world, and indeed so do all things. When i have Deja-vu it is because i have been at that place or done that thing before, not in another life or anything crazy like that but in the sense that i have seen from God's Perspective...To walk in the Spirit is to be in Heavenly Places, to walk after the flesh is to be down here. The reason we saints oft disagree is that from time to time we leave our abode in Heaven and come down to earth and deal with one another in the flesh.

Let us take our places in the Heavenlies and walk in the Spirit.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Katy Wrote:

"""
Relationship takes years, alone ***with the LORD****.

How many say "I LOVE GOD" and leave their wives and families? More then you know! Love calls for OBEDIENCE to put away our old man and our own personal desires...(yes they are still there) to do LEARN God's perfect and acceptable WILL. We learn this obedience through the things we suffer. The TESTS in life get harder and harder. No one has arrived YET, nor will we, as long as we are in these earthly fleshly bodies. There will always be a war between our two natures. Just when you think you have arrived, WOW, watch out...here comes another test that God Gives to prove we haven't!!!!"""

Praise God that Christ suffered all things as we do and He is in us to care for us in these sufferings. Our Circumstance and Situation Companion to the utmost, Our C & S Savior, The Gifted One Himself, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." We will learn. Praise God.

Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works

Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

This is the prophecy: 2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

In Christ: Phillip

Who are these that are sealed? 2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

These are not the 144,000, of the 12 tribes. These are the son's of God, and possibly the 144,000 who are virgins by the Christ in them and their Teacher's seal already on them. These are heavenly, already birthed son's of God.

These are different. These are earthly.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.

These are Israel evangelists, prophets and teachers of the earth. These will evangelize the world in the millennium as The promise fulfilled to Israel His Chosen people.

In Christ: Phillip

Abe it seems rather insecure to be so concerned that i believe exactly as you lol..

We know that Cornelius the Roman solder wasn't saved till he met Peter Act 11:14 speak of this.

14 He will speak words,to you by which YOU and all your household will be saved.'

But we read that God had heard Cornelius prayers and actions before he was saved.

2 He was a devout man and feared God along with his whole household. He did many charitable deeds for the Jewish people and always prayed to God.

How could he be devout,fear God,pray prayers that God hears, and do good things in a unsaved state? Isn't he totally depraved during this period?

but

Act 10:4 Your prayers and your acts of charity have come up as a memorial offering before God.

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Defiled with woman …doesn’t say “A “Woman.

it doesn't say defiled with "woman" but "women"

anyhow i think you are on to something here about what sort of defilement is being spoken of here. i hadn't seen this in the light which you brought up so i thank God for the beauty and utility of fellowship. There is an element of spiritual adultery which you alluded to by bringing up the harlot. Indeed we are to refrain from spiritual adultery. i think the defilement of the marriage bed has to do with the physical adultery which we are to also refrain from. This includes lusting after a woman also...how many of us men can say we're not guilty of adultery...?i know and confess that i am guilty, but i praise God for the Cross which is my Redemption. AMEN.

i think though that the implication here is that these are men which are Redeemed from among the men of the earth for a specific task. Yes indeed we follow the Lamb or we don't but that they are firstfruits says something is unique about this group. That they are numbered as being 144000 and sing a song which only they and the Lamb know says to me it is not a song for every saint. There are distinctions in Heaven based on Service and this is one. Other examples are that not everyone will wear the martyr's crown, not everyone will eat of the hidden manna etc.

Sure there is nowhere where men are called virgins...well except in this section of scripture. There are probably other instances of things which happen once in the word but in that case i would take the word at face value except God reveals otherwise.

i could well be wrong and if so i pray God correct me lest others be deceived on account of my own foolishness. AMEN.

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Who are these that are sealed? 2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

These are not the 144,000, of the 12 tribes. These are the son's of God, and possibly the 144,000 who are virgins by the Christ in them and their Teacher's seal already on them. These are heavenly, already birthed son's of God.

These are different. These are earthly.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.

These are Israel evangelists, prophets and teachers of the earth. These will evangelize the world in the millennium as The promise fulfilled to Israel His Chosen people.

In Christ: Phillip

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

STRONGS Woman....Women all #1135. Now think about it...all it would take is ONE (1) womAn, not several WOMEN (if you prefer the plural), to lose one's virginity. Also, scripture teaches scripture, and nowhere does God use or say men are virgins. All scripture will have 2 or 3 to be a witness to or back up. If you can't find it, then wait until the Lord reveals the scripture. When WE try to force what isn't there we get way off coarse.

oh ok so it is the same word used for woman and women is it? i didn't know that thanks sis. i went and looked up what other alternate meanings/applications there are for that word and the list is quite interesting...that word "gune" is used for:

a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow.

a wife
of a betrothed woman

so this makes this verse quite interesting. to me if we look at it in terms of the physical, only a man could fit this role. sure one only needs one woman to lose his virginity but one could do so with many also. Sure nowhere else are men called virgins but unless (well physically anyway) the word is talking about women defiling themselves with women (which is plausible also) to me this speaks about men. i don't believe i am forcing anything here, just taking the word at face value because i have no reason to take it any other way because our Lord hasn't given me much reason to as yet. i will say though that this back and forth with you has opened up some things which i would not have otherwise seen.

Also the "Woman" who rides the Beast...That "woman" Jezebel, are all the same Greek word gune. We just need to put on the mind of Christ, and He will enlighten.

i agree with this that there is a spiritual component to this but i am wondering if there is not also a physical one also. If the word gune has been used for wife, widow and so on could it be that there is an element defilement in that? now i am not saying that the marriage bed is defiled at all in the sense which immediately comes to mind. The marriage bed is undefiled except there is infidelity and we know infidelity need not be physical but can even be in the heart. i think though defilement here could be that when one gets married, there are sometimes instances wherein one is divided on whom to serve, God or wife. i say this because i myself am married and there have been occasions where i feel led to pray but then my wife is in need of something and i must do one or the other. Marriage is an interesting thing. i find though that the closer God draws me to Him, the more understanding my wife is of the things which God would have me do sometimes. then also the defilement could mean illicit sexual interaction with women in a literal sense...i guess this could be men and women after all in this group... :-) anyhow defilement also speaks of sin as well as sex too so there is an interesting dynamic here. i am seeing more and more than i could have without this discussion...this is cool...

Ironman, God said the marriage bed is NOT defiled. God created women to be the Glory of the Man. Woman was taken from the man's rib. God blessed marriage and sexual intimacy in marriage...there is nothing defiling about it.

which is exactly what i said initially that defiling the marriage bed has to do with adultery. being intimate in marriage is a blessed thing though that can end up being an idol itself and could defile it...

A married faithful man who had not defiled his own marriage bed IS NOT A VIRGIN anyway.

oh snap...after all that i have discovered something key...with a daughter and a son on the way, i guess i'm not going to be counted with this crew... :-P He who finds a wife does find a good thing.

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

sis K-D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

The Woman in Genesis 3:15 is Israel,

i don't think that necessarily this is limited to Israel. The pronouncement seems to speak of a beef between men and the devil which began after that point even before ISrael existed. We know the devil hated men before men even knew of him. Adam and Eve didn't know about Lucifer but after he duped them, you best believe they were hot...the emnity i believe began with Eve's own children and came through the generations and culminated on the Cross. so we could say also in a sense Mary is the woman in Gen 3 since her Son is the one who embodied in the Ultimate sense what God said about her seed crushing the head of the serpent.

the Woman in Revelation 12 is Israel

indeed this is the case, that woman is Israel but also in a real sense Mary because she gave birth (physically) to Christ. There seems to me to be a duality going on here in scripture, a spiritual and physical manfiestation. So the woman is both Israel, as evidenced by the 12 stars and sun and moon and all and how that is explained by the interpretation of the dream of Joseph. The woman is also Mary in a very real sense. and no i am not taking the catholic stance on this of mary being a co-redemptress,that idea is of the devil. So many times i find though that there is this duality and we tend to take one over the other as opposed to both and receive the fullness of what God is communicating to us...no wonder sometimes we a starved spiritually...i also see in here where catholicism has some Truths in it which we would benefit from if we examined them through the lense of scripture as opposed to the bias we have against catholicism. i am not saying we are to embace this false faith but that if we are honest, we will find some thing in ourselves or our own profession of the Faith which are not substantiated by scripture (as in Catholicism) which we too need to repent of.

However the Catholic Church wants to apply that to Mary ...*literally*, and it produces more problems than you think. Because of their translation we have Mary as co-redemptress, Mary, Mother of God, Mary who they say IS the ark of the Covenant , and more that will cause you to slap your knee and bang your head on your keyboard.

well it produces problems in as much as we stray from Holy Spirit's instruction and the rest of the word. i have no problem with Mary being this woman in the vision because she is clearly. However in men wanting to enslave others (which is a tool of satan) the scriptures can and have been twisted to that end. There are similar instances in protestantism also. Even the whole issue of she being the ark of the covenant says to me that men have strayed from Holy Spirit's Instruction and Illumination of the word. We would do well to be wary ourselves of this when we go after things which have been said or written by others without pressing into God for Him to Minister to us. i used to want to take the jawbone of an ass and go Samson on people but our Lord showed me that He was MErciful to me and so He has me pray for my brethren more and more. Sometimes it is necessary to use said weapon but i find it is much less than i thought...

Clue..Women don't have "seed" they have eggs!!! Go figure, but in the OT Israel is the Wife of God. Her seed, Israel, is the seed of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah to David...the seed of David, which came through Mary, Mary being herself a seed of the Line of Judah and the house of David, but the SEED is Christ, and the *HER* in Genesis 3:15 is Israel.

true women have eggs...where is that in the bible though? i think seed is speaking of offspring as it is used of women. so then we can say that the offspring of Eve through Seth and that line to Abraham, to Isaac and Jacob is ISrael. The emnity began right when God said it did. It is manifest in how our service to God does hurt the enemy in a very real sense because it reminds him that his plan of causing grief to God through enslaving us has been undone. We crush his head, he brusies our heel by causing us to stumble from time to time in that. This applies to all the children which came from Eve through the lines and generations. And then that also culminated on the Cross when Christ did crush the enemy's head and His own heel was bruised in that He suffered death. i am a bit of, well i am a mystic so tend to be shown things in great detail and this causes me to read things carefully...this may get me in trouble now and again...anyhow if the serpent's head is crushed and the heel is bruised, who do you think won that encounter? Whose wound will heal faster?

Also in Revelations 12, Mary is not the mother of the 12 tribes of Israel, or the Mother of the 12 Apostles. The Sun, moon and 12 stars refer to Joseph's dream in Genesis. See how all scripture fits together, and how scripture teaches scripture?

very true sis. indeed scripture teaches scripture and so we see that the manchild who is birthed rules the nation with a Rod of Iron (this is Jesus) and in a real sense, Mary gave birth to Him also. it's not one or the other view it is both because scripture supports both. Now obviously we can see where the woman applies to Mary specifically and ISrael specifically because of the stars and all but there is no denying that it is both views since scripture supports both and when we view them together in Light of HOly SPirit, we see the full picture.

So even with the word Woman, Women etc, we need to be very careful how we divide those truths.

indeed but we need also to be careful so as to not divide them unto alienating these Truths from one another and taking one over the other. i have found this on the issue of predestination and free will, it is not one or the other but both are one in concert to the Eternal Purpose's Fulfilment.

PS: I need to add this. Because the Catholic Church believes Mary to be Genesis 3:15 and Rev 12, and because Mary is now an ICON with many false religions, Even Islam believes in Mary, and the moon under her feet (the Moon is an ICON for the Islam faith....you see it on top of all their churches,) as well as Fatima being Mohammad’s daughters name, you have "our Lady of Fatima, of which the Pope when leaning over to kiss this statue missed a bullet, saving his life, ...sometime within this time period makes a secret Covenant with Arafat during the year 2000.

and this is because of men straying from Holy Spirit as it pertains to interpreting scripture. The thing to consider is that there is a Truth there which has been perverted by the enemy. The enemy can't invent anything or create anything, every lie he has ever told, or false believe has been a perversion of a Truth of God and if we press into GOd, He will peel away the layers of lies and reveal the Truth on which the lie has been based.

this is why i can never get tired of the word, there is so much to consider and so many things at work. The bible being of God is Infinite and Inexhaustable. The Jews say that there are at least 360 ways to interpret each verse in the bible...now how many verses is that? this is why i guess often times i see more than 1 application to a scripture...man 2 ways i see to intepret this verse...at least 358 left to go...:-P

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' NAme. AMEN.

p.s. in case i didn't say it before, i don't believe Mary is a co-redemptress in any wise, there is but one Redeemer and that is Jesus.

sis K-D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Ironman, that Prophesy is still yet to be fulfilled is it's completion at the end of the 1000 Year Millennial Reign, When Jesus Christ takes the Throne of David. This IS what the Catholic Church hates and why they so emphasize Mary also as the Woman in Revelation 12.

like i said earlier which i reiterate Genesis 3:15 is not limited to Israel but the context seems to me to include Mary since she is the the one who gave birth to Christ in a real sense. The same applies to the woman in the Revelation also, she is Israel clearly but she is Mary also. Now i don't believe Mary is a co-redemptress because that is not the testimony of scripture. the crushing of the head is not a one time thing because the emnity between Satan and men is not a one time thing but is something which was from Adam and Eve and continues to this day. The context is much broader than the end of the Millenial reign. it spans all of time from Adam, to the Crucifixion and even to the end of the Millenial Reign.

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

ok, this verse speaks to me of the outworking of the crushing of the enemy's head by the death on the Cross in their lives. that is the breaking of bonds in their lives which is part of an even bigger context of that matter. This crushing of the enemy's head is no small matter that it can be relegated to being an event which happens at one point because it clearly spans the period between when God spoke it and what happens after the Millenium. all of it is a consequence of the slaying of Christ from before the setting of the foundations of the world.

even the ruling of Christ until all the enemies are put under His feet speaks to me of a process by which this is achieved over a period, well at least the manifestation of it anyway because Christ was victorious from His slaying at the foundations of the world. indeed everything is in order but let us remember that the scriptures from God's Perspective read very differently because for God what we perceive to be past present and future are all before Him simultaneously and so to see from that perspective is unlike anything we can imagine. This is how i am learning to read the word and it makes so much more sense now. i see more clearly the timelessness of the word because what is spoken of and written in the word is written for the Eternal Context.

Genesis 3:15 has much more to come…..and Mary and the Catholic Church have nothing to do with it.

i agree and it began with Eve and goes on till death is cast into the lake of fire and Mary's role is carrying our Lord, giving birth to Him and caring for him as she was called to do.

Hummmmmm, ever wonder why He didn't say MARY? Ans; Because God knows Beginning from the End, and leaves no holes to be filled by the imagination of men.

what does Mary have to do with that? :-? why would Christ have to say Mary as it pertained to the scripture you quoted? God leaves room for us to grow in the Knowledge and Wisdom of His word, if we stray from Him then we fill it with vain imaginings.

again i am learning that scripture being of God is Inexhaustable and Infinite and so for every verse we must consider the Eternal Context which means that there is always Infinitely more to grasp from the word than what we already know. as i said, one of the Jewish traditions is that each verse has 360 ways to interpret it which to me speaks of multiple contexts supporting the idea of the Eternal Context. this is why with scripture it's often not an issue of "either this or that" but is often both points and then some. This is why when i read the Revelation i can see a literal unfolding of events in the spirit realm as God showed it to John and also a corresponding event in the natural realm. i think we we believe we have fully grasped something in the word, like Paul said then we don't know squat...

1 corinthians 8 says:

[b]2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. [/b]

What happens when we think we have it down is that we shut our hearts out to further Revelation from God concerning a topic. i bless God for His Grace which has brought me past that narrow-mindedness such that i can get a better and better view of Him and the Scriptures and indeed all things. How open are you?

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

P.S. it is just me or is it way cool that Jesus in Rev 22:16 says He is the Root and Offspring of David? i mean He is the beginning of David and the end of Him at once...can you get your head around that? His victory over the enemy is Eternal, without beginning as we know it and likewise no end...wow...aint God Good?

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

as i have said before, i don't agree with the Catholic stance of Mary being a co-redemptress but by His Grace i see a much wider context for Gen 3:15 and the woman in the Revelation and it seems God has yet to quicken you to that. Christ is the Seed of the woman, Eve and all those women in that whole line which ends with Mary.so the woman is not either Israel or Mary but both, the context is much broader than you have been enabled to see as yet. He is also the Seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all the way the line through David and Joseph in that this is his human lineage which makes him the Son of man. Now He said of Himself before Abraham was, I Am, He said also that He is the Root and Shoot (offspring of David) that is AWESOME! Christ is not just the Seed, He Himself is the Root of the plant from which comes the Seed, the Alpha and Omega indeed...

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name.AMEN.

There is a seed of the woman, that is Christ the man. There is a Seed of God the Father, that is God the Son, Jesus Christ. One is earthly, One is Heavenly. The earthly died on the Cross, the Heavenly was made to be birthed in the believer. That is the Seed Peter speaks about being born again of Incorruptable Seed sealed in the believer by the Holy Spirit. Just like the Father's Seed in the seed of Mary by the Overpowering of the Holy Spirit. We are no longer of this earth. We are already seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus the Seed of The Father in us and us in the heavenlies. That same Seed that was with the Father before the foundation of the World that is the Christ, The Only Begotten of the Father, that Christ now begotten in us.

I did not have to give My Father permission to give me birth, that was His will and His pleasure. Praise God. Thank you Father for giving me new birth, that I might be a son of God. No wonder no one understood this except Paul. Peter never speaks of the Cross in Acts. It took association with Paul for even Peter to come to the knowledge of the Seed, Incorruptable in him. Then even the Peter at the Last said, that "things that Paul said are hard to understand."

2 Peter 3:11-18 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

We know these things, let us put them in their proper place and grow in that knowledge that "Christ in you is the Hope of Glory", a whole complete new person a new creature, that is a son of God a direct offspring of God the Father, as Christ the only begotten.

My new creature brethren, let us seek to know Him and fellowship in His suffering and baptism and being of One Spirit and Mind let us go on into Him. Living son's of God destined for the Father's house. Let us learn His House by His Son's leadership and preparation as all Rockefellers are under tutors and governors before they receive their inheritances, 21,000,000 dollars and the rule of the House and participation in the Father's work.

In Christ: Phillip

Katy-did wrote:
We, and many do believe that the apostate Catholic Church will be very much a part of the Harlot..who rides the beast.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Ref. Rev 12:3, Rev 13:1)

Who was last seenh in the wilderness?
Rev 12:6,14

Rev17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (Ref Exo 28:5-9 and 39:1-29
Jer 4:30-31, 1Thes 2:15.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Ref. Isa 1:21

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Ref Mat 23:34-37, Luk 11:47-51, Act 7:58-60.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. ref:Eze 16:37-41

Rev 18:2 And he cried in a strong, great voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen! It has fallen, and it has become a dwelling-place of demons, and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. (Ref. Mat 12:43-45

Rev 18:8 Because of this, in one day her plagues shall come: death, and mourning, and famine; and she will be consumed with fire, for the Lord God judging her is strong. Ref. Amos 9:9

Rev 18:16 and saying, Woe! Woe to the great city having been clothed in linen and purple and scarlet, and having been gilded and decked with gold and precious stone, and pearls! (Ref Exo 28:8-9, Jer 4:30-31

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all the ones having been slain on the earth.(Ref Mat 23:34-37

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Ironman, I have been quickened to the Truth, and had hoped to share this truth with you. As I have declared before, Mary being the Woman in Genesis and Revelation is a Catholic belief. We, and many do believe that the apostate Catholic Church will be very much a part of the Harlot..who rides the beast. Even among Catholics many believe this,so I'm not calling names. This Marion worship will be a major part of it, unless you are a part of the promotion of the Marion Worship, which I don't believe you are, but just don't know the implications of what you are saying...or are not saying...just to get along.???? It is my prayer that the Lord will Quicken you to these truths, as He has so many others.

sis, i see your point, i saw your point, God showed me through people on these boards and beyond that the woman of Rev 12 is Israel. The woman has a crown of 12 stars which are the 12 tribes, she is clothed with the sun, the sun in Joseph's dream was Jacob, the moon is at her feet and this moon is the mother of Joseph.

i say again, i believe that the woman in Genesis whose seed will bruise the enemy is Eve, that is the immediate context because she was the only woman on earth at the time God said this. However there is a broader context which includes Mary in a very real sense since Christ is her child in that she gave Him birth. We can't ignore that. i say again also [i][b]that i do NOT in any way shape or form worship Mary nor support such[/b][/i] i was saved out of Catholicism. However it was where i first heard of our Lord and even some of what i learned there about God remains with me because after years of pressing into God He has verified those things to which i still hold to be True. i am not arguing that the woman in Rev 12 isn't Israel, i agree totally, but there is a broader context to which you have yet to be quickened and that's cool. sure the catholic church is the harlot riding on the beast, however, it is not solely Catholicism which has killed prophets and saints, but other religions also. Catholicism has most likely killed many more than the others though giving it a prominent place in in terms of apostasy.

again, no i do not promote Marion worship nor have i said what i have to try and "get along" with anyone. i assure you God in His Mercy has given me great Zeal for Him such that i am Jealous over Him and the Faith to contend for it as He gives me Grace. Dear sister, the enemy doesn't invent anything new, he simply perverts the Truth. That Catholics believe Mary is the woman in Gen 3 and Rev 1 says that there is a Truth there. However, Catholics have been fooled by the enemy into believing that Mary is now a co-redemptress or queen of heaven (there is no such thing in scripture) based on that, which is a gross perversion of the Original Truth. i do not ascribe to the Catholic view of this at all. Mary is not a co-redemptress nor is she queen of heaven, nor do i worship her nor condone such worship. If they don't repent of the idea that Mary is to be worshipped or given more reverence than she ought to be, their blood be on their heads. May God have Mercy and loose those bonds and may God Damn that heresy and he who spawned it.AMEN.

sis K-D, i see your point and there is Truth there. however i have been quickened to a much broader context of those scriptures; not just those ones but scripture in general. God is Infinite, better yet, He is Infinity, His word is Infinite and like Him too is Infinity. We can't comprehend the scope of the Context of scripture any more fully than we can comprehend Him fully. Doesn't the word say His ways are higher than our own ways or that His Wisdom is Manifold? Doesn't Paul extol God's Greatness by saying "oh the depth of the Wisdom and Knowledge of God, who has been His counselor? When Job thought he had God figuired out, how many of the 80 or so questions God asked him could he answer?

sis i don't claim to have the whole Truth, i know who does though and the Truth is far beyond the scope of what we can perceive...by His Grace i have enough understanding of that to be open to Him showing me the 360 ways each verse could be rendered. This is how the word remains timeless, the context is Eternal. i believe that there is far more to Gen 3:15 and Rev 12 and those women than we can deduce on this side...thank God we have Eternity to dig into these Mysteries! i'm off to delve into them...coming?

Of great importance, in particular, is the description of the exterior feature of the "woman", rich in a symbolism quite unusual. Clothed with the sun, Mary was really flooded by divine grace that consecrated her immaculate from conception and transformed her into the Mother of God. The moon under her feet signifies that all things created and passing - symbolized by the moon, which appears and disappears - are under the feet of the Queen of the universe. On her head a crown of twelve stars is the symbol of Mary's reign over the angels (stars), the Chosen People (the twelve tribes), over the Church (the twelve apostles).

the matter of Mary being queen of the universe and the idea of her ruling in this manner...Satanic heresy, the perversion of the Truth that Israel is depicted here as being the mother (i guess) of the Messiah and Mary being His mother in that she carried Him to term and gave birth to Him and raised Him. it's not that the woman is Either Israel or Mary only, the woman is both of them.

The article insists on the simplistic interpretation that "woman with man-child" = "Mary". This is the result of an indolent and myopic perusal of Scripture. With a little more effort it becomes clear that such a careless examination of Scripture creates the danger of poor theology.

Well lest we ourselves be deceived, we had better not be indolent and myopic ourselves in studying the word of GOd. The interpretation is simple enough. Israel as bro DeVito pointed out is called a woman many times over in the word so the woman is Israel. however more specifically in Israel there was one woman who carried the MEssiah and that was Mary. We can't ignore that or exclude it because Catholicism has perverted this. Instead we must put this Truth into its proper Perspective.

Once more sis, i receive what you are saying and have received it with gladness. i hope you can see that there is a broader context to scripture than you or i perceive which needs our consideration.

Grace and Peace be ours in JEsus' Name. AMEN.

bro Logic

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

The Harlot is unrepentant Israel.

i don't think so and i believe the scriptures testify against what you have stated here.

Who was last seenh in the wilderness?

indeed Israel fled into the wilderness, but to a place prepared for her of God where she would be nourished for 3.5 yrs. She arrived at that place and was fed for that period and tended to giving her no time to come out of hiding and play the harlot.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

ok now we see the woman escapes the dragon and she is nourished for the remainder of the tribulation away from the serpent meaning she had no further contact with him let alone going about riding on the beast's back.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 18

now this woman can't be unrepentant because if we examine her seed, we see that they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ which means she must keep those same commandments and testimony of Christ, nobody can do that except God gives Grace.

Who was last seenh in the wilderness?

bro, sure the woman clothed in the sun was last seen in the wilderness but i think it is a great stretch, a very dangerous one to say that the woman who just gave birth to the Messiah and is fleeing for her life becomes the harlot...especially after being persecuted so much she needed to great wings to escape...

in Rev 17 the harlot who "sits over many waters" is clearly Rome. sitting over many waters refers to ruling over many people and tribes. There are more people influenced by Catholicism than there are Judaism. Catholicism had had far more dealings with the kings of the earth than Judaism. The woman sits on this beast which has 7 heads which are 7 hills, Jerusalem (if we assume this harlot to be ISrael) doesn't sit on 7 hills, but Rome does so whoever this harlot is, she is closely tied into Rome...Israel and Rome, or Jews and Catholics have a rather long standing beef, the inquisition...of course you know also that during this period, many Christians were martyred because they would not ally themselves with Rome hence this harlot is drunk with the blood of the saints of Jesus.

i believe in this matter dear brother Logic that you are in error. The testimony of scripture seems to refute your position and gives credance to another view altogether. Israel can' be the harlot, she has given birth to the MEssiah and been persecuted and escaped that and was hidden in a place prepared for her to hide and be nourished. a place so secure that the enemy had to go and persecute her seed because he couldn't get to her. Also the fact that her seed keeps the commandments and testifies to Christ says that she does also.

then again maybe it is i who is in error if so may our Lord correct me because He knows i'm not trying to be lost like that...Also if it is you in error, i pray he straighten you out also because Lord knows i don't want you to be deceived in this matter, or any other.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Of course most of you know that I hold a preterist view point, meaning that everything that pertaineth the Revelations and all the prophecies are fulfilled. (blah blah blah, right?)

you know bro, you have some idea of what is going on in terms of the fulfilment of things but you don't see it seems that there is a broader context here. There seems to me to be in the word sciptures which speak of the future which are fulfilled partially and later fulfilled in full and the Revelation is like that to a degree. some things have yet to be fulfilled such as Christ ruling from Jerusalem from the throne of His father David. When did that happen. even His return in the clouds which was said to be such that all men will see Him, when in history has there ever been such an event. i think a part of that mentality may have to do with our desire to escape or not think about or otherwise deal with the reality of the coming tribulation. We jump through all manner of hoops and make up shaky theologies to make it so the tribulation doesn't happen while we are here be it pre-trib rapture or preterism. This sort of thinking will leave us as sitting ducks when things hit the fan and the drama jumps off.

And logic you are correct in saying that unbelieving Israel is the harlot that rides the beast, Rome of the past.

bro Compliments are you sure of this? Israel being the harlot which rides on the beast of Rome? Was Rome not the overlord of Israel for many many yrs? did Rome not sack Jerusalem in 70 AD and burn the temple leaving a bitterness in the mouth of the Jew such that there could never be s cozy relationship of the kind we see between the beast and the harlot? When was Israel ever so close to Rome? i would like to know because it seems to me Rome persecuted Israel terribly and such persecution fostered a deep hatred for Rome which could not have espoused Israel sitting on the beast of Rome. besides there are some other attributes which simply don't fit Israel. The harlot made kings drunk with her wine, she had influence with the men of the earth, Judasim hasn't enjoyed such influence...Rome and catholicism have though...

anyhow i could be wrong and if i am, may God straighten me out. if it is you, then God straighten you out.

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name.AMEN.

IRONMAN wrote:

The Harlot is unrepentant Israel.

i don't think so and i believe the scriptures testify against what you have stated here.

IRONMAN wrote:

Who was last seenh in the wilderness?

indeed Israel fled into the wilderness, but to a place prepared for her of God where she would be nourished for 3.5 yrs.
She arrived at that place and was fed for that period and tended to giving her no time to come out of hiding and play the harlot.

IRONMAN wrote:

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

ok now we see the woman escapes the dragon and she is nourished for the remainder of the yribulation away from the serpent meaning she had no further contact with him let alone going about riding on the beast's back.

Rev 12:1-6 are one event and Rev 12:7-14 are one event inside verse 5.
Notice the word "they" in verse 6?
The word "they" is fefering to the Nations in verse 5 that Jesus was to rule with a rod of iron.

IRONMAN wrote:

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 18

now this woman can't be unrepentant because if we examine her seed, we see that they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ which means she must keep those same commandments and testimony of Christ, nobody can do that except God gives Grace.

IRONMAN wrote:

Who was last seenh in the wilderness?

bro, sure the woman clothed in the sun was last seen in the wilderness but i think it is a great stretch, a very dangerous one to say that the woman who just gave birth to the Messiah and is fleeing for her life becomes the harlot...especially after being persecuted so much she needed to great wings to escape...

IRONMAN wrote:
in Rev 17 the harlot who "sits over many waters" is clearly Rome.
Sitting over many waters refers to ruling over many people and tribes.

There are more people influenced by Catholicism than there are Judaism.

IRONMAN wrote:
The woman sits on this beast which has 7 heads which are 7 hills, Jerusalem (if we assume this harlot to be ISrael) doesn't sit on 7 hills, but Rome does so whoever this harlot is, she is closely tied into Rome

mountains, however, are Kingdoms as Babylon is in this verse and God's Kingdoms is in the one after it.

[b]Jer 51:25[/b] [color=990000]Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, says the LORD, who destroy all the earth: and I will stretch out my hand upon you, and roll you down from the rocks, and will make you a burnt mountain.[/color]

[b]Dan 2:35[/b] [color=990000]Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them: and the stone that struck the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.[/color]

bro Logic

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

I gave plenty of back up scripture to testify for thyis to be true.

what you have stated seems at best a twisting of scripture to suit your own view. Then again dear bro, it may well be me who is wrong so i pray God straighten this out that we may both come to a Right understanding of what is going on here.AMEN.

Not "come out of hiding", but became the harlot while in the wilderness.

bro Logic, if she goes to a place which God has prepared for her to be nourished for this whole period, and i believe she is nourished the whole time by God, how could she become the harlot if God is feeding her? :-? or has God abandoned her and therefore has lied about the provision he was to make for her? :-?

the remnant of her offspring is the Church, because we keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, not Israel.

bro if the offspring is Right before God, how can the mother then be unrepentant. Cows can't give birth to lions. help me understand how you believe Israel as this woman is unrepentant and yet God has made such provision for her and her seed keeps the commandments of God? Now Israel for the most part now is unsaved, but the trib hasn't happened yet and God will yet Judge her to bring her to Repentance that she may take her place Eschatologically. Israel will have too the testimony of Jesus...as soon as we as the Church do what we have been called to do and bring her to Jealousy by Representing God as He is to her that she may be Saved. if Israel is unsaved, we bear some responsibility in that for our failiure to bring her to jealousy by the flaky, cheapy, shallow Christianity (if we can call it that) which we practise. For all their hard-heartedness, Jews have a knack it seems for spotting cheap imitations and they don't go for the okie-doke...we better get on the ball saints...

Who is called a harlot all through the Bible?

ah yes Israel is oft called a harlot because of her idolatry and spiritual infidelity...now if God calls Israel a harlot for this, what shall he call the Church which does these same things? a harlot? Now Paul says he wants to present the church at Corinth as a chaste virgin to Christ so they should hold fast to the Faith...what would the opposite of that be but a harlot? while it may not be expressed explicitly, the idea of spiritual infidelity as it pertains to the church=harlotry just as it does with Israel.

God is dealing with Israel, not Rome. Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the whore.

i beg to differ bro Logic. Yes Rome isn't married to anyone but one need not be married to be a harlot. i fear this escapist mentality of rapture before purification has warped many sa saint's view of not only Eschatology, the Church and ISrael, but even God Himself. if the Church was not meant to be here in those days, what need would there be in giving the Revelation since it was FOR the Church? bro Logic, the whose sits on many multitudes and nations and i can tell you, Israel has had no such influence over the world.Rome has by the spread of catholicism and its dealings with kings of nations.this woman is said to rule over the kings of the earth, Rome has such influence.Also the beast makes war with her seed which is yet on earth during this time so i see no rapture if it means escaping the fire of this time. There are saints here yet in Rev 18 being warned to come out of Babylon before the Judgment falls on her. This happens just before Rev 19 in which Jesus Returns...the rapture occurs at this point because the return of Christ is never said to be a secret but rather an even that all men shall see and Christ Himself never said He would come secretly for the Church and then again later. To say that Paul suggested such i believe is a gross misinterpretaion of scripture, a perversion of it from the enemy which will leave many woefully unprepared for the period of cleansing which we must first pass through to be proven to be Right before God.

thanks for the list of the mountains, are they 14 in all or 7 with 2 different names each?

mountains, however, are Kingdoms as Babylon is in this verse and God's Kingdoms is in the one after it.

yes they are but that is not the only application for mountain in the word. Mountains can be literal mountains like here in Matt 4:8

[b]Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; [/b]

matt 17: 20

[b]And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. [/b]

in Rev 8:8 a mountain is something else (perhaps a comet...a big one)

[b]And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; [/b]

The references in scripture for mountain for the most part are literal mountains, on occasion it is a nation.

anyhow bro, may God straighten us both out where we are wrong that His Name may be Glorified forever.AMEN.

i will say though that your view of unrepentant Israel being the harlot has some truth to it. That being those Jews which are unsaved will be one with those people who are unsaved, Catholic, protestant, hindu, muslim and all the other religions under the ecumenical umbrella fostered by Rome. i had not considered this but i bless God for what He said through you to bring that to light.

Grace and PEace be ours in Jesus' Name.AMEN.

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Logic
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

I gave plenty of back up scripture to testify for thyis to be true.

what you have stated seems at best a twisting of scripture to suit your own view. Then again dear bro, it may well be me who is wrong so i pray God straighten this out that we may both come to a Right understanding of what is going on here.

IRONMAN wrote:

Not "come out of hiding", but became the harlot while in the wilderness.

bro Logic, if she goes to a place which God has prepared for her to be nourished for this whole period, and i believe she is nourished the whole time by God,

IRONMAN wrote:
bro if the offspring is Right before God, how can the mother then be unrepentant.

IRONMAN wrote:
Cows can't give birth to lions.

IRONMAN wrote:
help me understand how you believe Israel as this woman is unrepentant and yet God has made such provision for her and her seed keeps the commandments of God?

IRONMAN wrote:
Now Israel for the most part now is unsaved, but the trib hasn't happened yet and God will yet Judge her to bring her to Repentance that she may take her place Eschatologically.

IRONMAN wrote:
Israel [b]will[/b] have too the testimony of Jesus...as soon as we as the Church do what we have been called to do and bring her to Jealousy by Representing God as He is to her that she may be Saved.

IRONMAN wrote:
ah yes Israel is oft called a harlot because of her idolatry and spiritual infidelity...now if God calls Israel a harlot for this, what shall he call the Church which does these same things?

IRONMAN wrote:
i beg to differ bro Logic. Yes Rome isn't married to anyone but one need not be married to be a harlot.

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Logic, the whose sits on many multitudes and nations and i can tell you, Israel has had no such influence over the world

It is about gouing along with them or taking rest with them.

IRONMAN wrote:
thanks for the list of the mountains, are they 14 in all or 7 with 2 different names each?

IRONMAN wrote:
yes they are but that is not the only application for mountain in the word. Mountains can be literal mountains like here in Matt 4:8...
...The references in scripture for mountain for the most part are literal mountains, on occasion it is a nation.

If a woman is symbolic and the heads are symbolic, then the Mounts are too.
Why keep the woman symbolic if the mount become literal?

bro Logic
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

No, I was just comparing the Preiestly garments are take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet[b], and fine linen(Exodus 28:5-9), just as the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls(Rev 17:4)

praise God for what you said here coz it put things into perspective and i see more clearly where you are coming from now. in my previous post i began to see a bit about how unrepentant ISrael would be part of this false world religion. Now that i see the comparison with the priestly garments of old, i see more clearly. thanks bro.

The verse said that "they they should feed her there"The they refers back to the verse before, which would be the Nations that the "male child" was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.(Rev 12:5-6)

now i believe that the provision of the Lord for this woman is such that it would not allow her to become this harlot. i feel still that apostacy of Rome has much to do with this and the JEws who will not repent will jump in with this crowd.

My Dad is not save.

i was not talking solely of physical progeny but rather Spiritual progeny. John called the church in his epistles "little children" but this was not a reference to him being their physical father but spiritual father. Paul spoke of being a spiritual father also. the progeny here that i was talking about is Spiritual. so to put it into perspective, the spiritual progeny of this woman Israel, keeps the commands of Christ so she must also because to be born into that Spirit requires that whoever is birthing is also in that Spirit.This is the perspective in which i was speaking about a cow giving birth to a lion. an unsaved man can't save an unsaved man. if one doesn't have Salvation, he can't give it. Furthermore Israel is indeed at present playing the harlot but so are we in many regards so we too need to repent so i would not be so quick to place the Church in heaven during the trib in the way you are speaking.

The true Church of God(You and I) does not do the same things.

we don't? dear brother if you can say to anyone, or profess before God that you have no idols or other sin which has yet to be purged from you then praise God for the Consummation of the work of Perfecting you in Jesus! i have yet much to repent of, some things i am unaware of as yet. Do you yet have sin you are guilty of which you must repent of or have you repented of all and no longer commit them? the Church has placed idols all over the place and worships them. don't tell me the true Church isn't guilty of such because that is a lie. We ought NOT be guilty of them indeed but there is something hindering the Full Manifestation on this side of what happened when we received Holy Spirit and were Saved. We have yet to see that purging take Full Effect in our lives in our thoughts, intents, attitudes, words and deeds. if your brother is backslidden, we have a responsibility to restore that brother or else the whole body will be affected. This is the Nature of our Bond, that we are One and so if one suffers, we all do, Christianity is not an individualistic faith because what happens to one brother affects others. We are Perfected in Christ, our inner man is Renewed but there must be evidence of it in our lives and in many respects this is lacking so we too need fire to be brought to repentance which is why i believe we will be here during the Trib. After all who will tend to her with the message of the gospel if the Church is gone? YEs there is the 144000, but the Church at some point must move Israel to Jealousy not by being whisked away in rapture but by Demonstrating the Faith to ISrael, that is the only thing which can do this.

Hosea represents God, Gomer represents Israel. Where in the Bible is any body els callde a harlot. Must keep it that way.

Rahab was a harlot, and she was a gentile...mmm. could it be that perhaps from the Gentile church there could some some who will make up the harlot? Israel i also called a virgin mind you so she is not a harlot all the time and i belive in Rev 12 she is chaste in that she faithfully does as God requires, giving birth to His Son.

It's not about influance.

oh but it is bro, how can 2 people walk together if they don't agree?

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful.

to walk in the counsel of the ungodly is to be influenced by them. to sit in the seat of the scournful would be to be influenced by them and also to influence them. Birds of a feather flock together right? to go along with such is to also push them along.

2 different names each.

thanks bro.

If a woman is symbolic and the heads are symbolic, then the Mounts are too.
Why keep the woman symbolic if the mount become literal?

p.s. bro Logic and all, i would like for you to know that i would much rather prefer to endure the whole tribulation period (knowing that God Protects His own during this) and be completely purged of every last bit of iniquity in me, than to come to the Bema seat of Christ and be surprised by Him saying that i did some things right but messed up in areas by doing things for my own glory and not His. i do not want Him to say to me to get away from Him even after prophesying and casting out demons and healing people...i'm not trying to diminish His Glory in any way and so for that cause i will endure whatever must be endured because He will give me Grace to do so because it is my desire...which He placed in me.

IRONMAN wrote:

The verse said that "they they should feed her there"The they refers back to the verse before, which would be the Nations that the "male child" was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.(Rev 12:5-6)
quote]now i believe that the provision of the Lord for this woman is such that it would not allow her to become this harlot.

However, They did become one because they are a harlot even till now, therefore, deem her as one as Revelations does.

IRONMAN wrote:

My Dad is not save.

i was not talking solely of physical progeny but rather Spiritual progeny. John called the church in his epistles "little children" but this was not a reference to him being their physical father but spiritual father.

I have a very godly friend whoes duaghter braught him to the Lord, now she is a hellion.

IRONMAN wrote:

ah yes Israel is oft called a harlot because of her idolatry and spiritual infidelity...now if God calls Israel a harlot for this, what shall he call the Church which does these same things?quote]The true Church of God(You and I) does not do the same things.

we don't? dear brother if you can say to anyone, or profess before God that you have no idols or other sin which has yet to be purged from you then praise God for the Consummation of the work of Perfecting you in Jesus! i have yet much to repent of, some things i am unaware of as yet. Do you yet have sin you are guilty of which you must repent of or have you repented of all and no longer commit them?

We acknowlege Jesus as the Masaiah, they do not, we are saved, they are not, we repent, they do not, we are not acting as a harlot, they are, even now.

IRONMAN wrote:

Hosea represents God, Gomer represents Israel. Where in the Bible is any body els callde a harlot. Must keep it that way

Rahab was a harlot, and she was a gentile...mmm.

Rahab does not represent anyone or anything. All she is in Scriptur is Boaz' mother

IRONMAN wrote:
could it be that perhaps from the Gentile church there could some some who will make up the harlot?

NO! The true Church of God is not split in two, one part virgen, other harlot.

IRONMAN wrote:

It's not about influance.

oh but it is bro, how can 2 people walk together if they don't agree?

Not influance, but agreement.

IRONMAN wrote:
We may not see a beast coming out of the sea...but i would not be surprised if God switched it on us and we saw this literally happen in the physical

[b]Daniel 7:3-6[/b] [color=990000]And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.[/color]
These were nor literal beasts, therefore Rev 13:1 is not.

IRONMAN wrote:
bro Logic, you are as your name says, logical. like Spock almost

Thanx I try 8-)
Your not the first to notice.

IRONMAN wrote:
in some areas this restrict the moves of God in one's life as we are closed thinking that God would not do such coz it doesn't make sense.

God is never irrational!

IRONMAN wrote:
so it is with scripture. in this discourse i have seen that the harlot on the beast is not just Rome, but includes apostate Israel and other religions also apart from Christianity in it's True Sense. it was the same scripture, same harlot but God showed me more about it through you.

Yes, I believe as the church is grafted into the Olive tree, then with Israel grafted back into his own tree that we are in, the world is grafted in to the same tree as the whore of unrepentant Israel.([b]Not[/b] "unrepentant Israel gets grafted into the harlot that is the world.")
Therefore all that is left after God takes for His own, He punishes with His wrath.

sis K-D
greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN

If the Lord came today would you be ready? Or are you waiting for the great tribulation to make you ready? What if you died before the great tribulation, would you not then be ready? What about the Saints from the beginning of the Church Age,…..have they missed out on this time of purification????

let it be clear that i'm not waiting for that time to come to be purified. Sis that was not my intention to imply such. However i meant that i would much rather endure the trib and be purged completely if that was what God required of me. as it stands i am being purged daily, i am not waiting. Jesus can't come now because there are yet some thing which must take place as outlined in the Revelation, the gospels and in other places in the N.T. our Lord showed me my death and it is somewhere in the trib, not entirely sure where. sis i think you read things in my post which were not there, where did i say anything which looks like this?

What about the Saints from the beginning of the Church Age,…..have they missed out on this time of purification????

i was spelling out my preference, or desire. i am aiming to be as much like Christ as possible and the personal cost is of no consequence. if it means the trib, then it's the trib. to be sure however, God has a way of preserving His people through trials, Daniel in babylon, Elijah at Cherith, James, Peter, Paul etc. to me God's Grace is sufficient at all times, if the Church is here through the trib, God will not pour out his Judgments on her, now the enemy and his minions may retaliate and persecute us, in fact the word does say that he shall make war against us and prevail,but just like God gave Grace to Polycarp who as an old man was told to reject Christ or be cast to the lions and he was torn to pieces, so shall He pour out Grace on those who must endure such. it seems to me the Church suffered much at its inception, how muc more then shall we suffer at the end of the Church Age? or do we not trust God to give us Grace to endure suffering should He determine this is our lot?

Don't put off till tomorrow what God has called His Church to TODAY!!!

oh no, God forbid! i strive today for that which i desire most, to be like Christ!

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro Logic

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

However, They did become one because they are a harlot even till now, therefore, deem her as one as Revelations does.

but bro Logic, it is only for a season that Israel plays the harlot. In the end, all of Israel will be saved, all Israel being all those God has Elected of His own Good Pleasure to Salvation. This Harlot here remains a harlot and is Judged accordingly while Israel is Saved. This makes it seem to me that this harlot is not solely Israel unregenerate, it seems to me that this includes all the other false faiths out there because she sits over a sea of people, nations, tongues and so on.This is to rule over them or have influence over them and so i believe the harlot is the coming religious order which does include apostate Israel, those apostate Christains who are of the great falling away, Muslims, Budhists, taoists etc.

I have a very godly friend whoes duaghter braught him to the Lord, now she is a hellion.

praise God he is saved! as for the daughter she is now a hellian, but if she was saved then she remains saved. it is not uncommon for saints to backslide to be sure, it ought not to be because we have Christ, yet in spite of ourselves, God's plan marches on...we backslide sometimes terribly but the mark of one who is saved is that at some point, that one comes Home like the prodigal son. now she is a hellian but wait, she may yet come home running, is she does then we know she is saved (though i believe her to be)

Rahab does not represent anyone or anything. All she is in Scriptur is Boaz' mother

ok, you asked where anyone was called a harlot and Rahab was, i didn't know you meant called a harlot as to represent something/one. Now it may not be said explicitly, but Paul implies that we should be wary of becoming harlots ourselves when he told the corinthians (i believe) he wanted to present them as a chaste virgin to Christ. the opposite of Spiritual Virginity is Spiritual Harlotry. so if we ourselves are not careful, we may end up being a harlot like Israel.

but bro to have infuence is to agree isn't it? o have some sort of commonality? The harlot has more influence on men and nations because it is not just Israel but it is also the religions of men come together under Catholic Ecumenicalism so that it spans, nations, tongues and so on.

Daniel 7:3-6 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.These were nor literal beasts, therefore Rev 13:1 is not.

but they were literal in that Daniel saw them as beasts. not literal in a physical sense but they had a manifestation in the physical realm. in the same way rev 13:1 is literal, that is John saw this beast literally but it represented some earthly kingdom.

God is never irrational!

irrational as you understand it? whose standard of irrationality are you using? Paul says God is irrational according to the understanding of man. men will not understand why God would save men by requiring His Son to die sins which are not His. That makes no sense to me in my natural mind by my natural reasoning or logic...Spiritually though...that's another matter!

Yes, I believe as the church is grafted into the Olive tree, then with Israel grafted back into his own tree that we are in, the world is grafted in to the same tree as the whore of unrepentant Israel.(Not "unrepentant Israel gets grafted into the harlot that is the world.")

that was good illustration bro, the apostates being grafted together...never thought of it like that.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

IRONMAN wrote:

However, They did become one because they are a harlot even till now, therefore, deem her as one as Revelations does.

but bro Logic, it is only for a season that Israel plays the harlot. [b]In the end, all of Israel will be saved[/b], all Israel being all those God has Elected of His own Good Pleasure to Salvation.

The Jew, who is one outwardly is the unrepentant Jew. The Jew who is one outwardly is of the true Israel of God along with the Church.

The Great Trib. is the time of Jacobs Trouble, in which God will turn Israel to Himself.

[b]Jer 30:3[/b] [color=990000]For, lo, the days come, says the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, says the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.[color]
[b]Jer 30:7-10[/b] [color=990000]Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
[b]:8[/b] For it shall come to pass in that day, says the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck[/color]( the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar, Babolon.)[color=990000], and will burst your bonds, and strangers shall no more enslave them:
[b]:9[/b] But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
[b]:10[/b] Therefore fear you not, O my servant Jacob, says the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save you from afar, and your descendants from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.[/color]
Even now, Israel is comming back out of other Lands that God scattered them to because of their harlotry.

IRONMAN wrote:ok,

Rahab does not represent anyone or anything. All she is in Scriptur is Boaz' mother

you asked where anyone was called a harlot and Rahab was, i didn't know you meant called a harlot as to represent something/one.

How is it that there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ? You cannot bring back into this Church His Body, the Israel that God has rejected and chosen for an earthly people for Christ's millennial Kingdom when Israel will receive all their covenants and promises of God to them on this earth. Israel is and earthly kingdom, The Body of Christ the Church is an Heavenly Kingdom. You cannot commingle the two or everything gets messed up. Israel is not a birthed kingdom, The Body of Christ is. What is Christ going to build His Church upon. The Rock of Revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. How is this revelation going to be revealed to His Church? Through Paul.

I know this is a lot of scripture, but it gives the whole picture of the Body of Christ His Church, separating Israel from His Heavenly Kingdom where we are seated already. This rightly divides the the Scriptures and separates Israel and their covenants and promises from the Body of Christ His Church's promises.

Colossians 1:9-29 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

What are we to preach, warning every man, and teaching every man? Paul's Gospel, The birthing of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." This is the perfection of God for His House, His Children, that is son's of the living God being prepared to live in His house which is heavenly, ruling over the earthly.

In Christ: Phillip

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

THIS is to the professing Church Today, not to Israel. You see, God would prefer you to be either Hot or Cold, for the Cold has yet to be tried...however the luke warm is just that bla, bla so so head knowledge person who really doesn't stand for anything, or stand up for anything...AND has NOT overcome, nor will he. (Read the end of the Chapter and God clearly clarifies who he is talking to. Why? More than likely he is a double minded man, looking to man for explainations. He is invited to WHAT?

indeed, this is one of the Manifold Beauties of Scripture, it's timeless...Whether you see the 7 Churches as being the original ones written to, Church ages or whatever (personally i believe it is both and then some) the letters are to the Church. to be double minded is to believe like you said man's doctrines/explanations and even more than that in that it is believeing what the enemy has said also. that could come through a man. an interesting thing to note is that the use of the word "overcome" as being a past tense thing is not complete. in the YLT (young's literal translation) the word is rendered as "overcoming" when it pertains to us. For us the battle continues, when we conquer one thing, there is yet another to be subsuded... just a side note here, i read Ezekiel 36-39 using that translation and at first i was confused because the tenses were all over the place, then God hit me with it, it was a most awesome display of God's Omnipresence i'd ever seen. God spoke of things as being done, or waiting to be done, or being done all at once because all things are before Him at once. i was like, "whoa.."

you quoted this scripture:

20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Indeed...

WOW, I think WE should be worried more about this...a charge to the professing Church ***here and now.

you best believe it...which is why i can't for the life of me understand how we see a pretrib rapture when the Revelation was written to the Church...if it's in the book, we probably ought to expect to see it, just like the saints of old did.

The Gold tried in the Fire are those previous scriptures I posted a couple days ago. This is our calling NOW.

AMEN. our Lord is trying us by fire but the heat is about to get turned up...dear sis the trying of our Faith by Adversity is crucial to our development because in that adversity we find out what manner of Christian we are. it's easy to say "oh i'm a good Christian" when all is peachy, but when someone walks up to you and slaps you for no reason...that's when we know what the deal is. i fear that when we go through tribulation and trial we will come up short, especially if we think we will escape persecutions (which i believe are headed our way) like unto and even worse than what was at the first. What would you do when faced with lions? what would i do? i pray God's Grace for us all...

During the Kingdom Reign, those who are eartthly who enter in both Jew and Gentile will not be able to say...."I am Crucified with Christ...no longer I but Christ in me"...EXCEPT HIS CHURCH, His Body, now being prepared to reign and rule with Him. We will all ready be in our Glorified Bodies...they won't.

men will be Saved in that day also, as surely as men will (even though the enemy is chained) choose to rebel, hence Christ rules with an Iron Rod. Those nations which don't pay the necessary Homage will have no rain the word says. Those who rule with Christ are not the whole Church. Rev 20:5 makes that plain. it is the Martyred. i'm not sure if the rest of the Church us also ruled over by Christ and the Martyrs, though i don't believe they will need an Iron Rod to get them to do right! :-P they may be the ones to set the example for the rest of men to follow. i pray God give us more Insight on that matter.AMEN.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

These are promises to the Church…us…

yes indeed, but not every member of the Church. you quoted Rev 3:21:

[b]21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, [/b]

yes, to him that is overcoming, but observe how this overcoming is to be:

[i][b]even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.[/b][/i]

how was it that Christ overcame? by being slain.now not every Christian has been Martyred nor will be, so not everyone will rule with Him in the 1000 yrs.To Rule with Him is a reward for death for Him. If we read the rewards which are given to the 7 Churches we see that they come after fulfilment of certain requirements.of course one can fulfil all of them and get every reward. Now to your point (i bless God that you posted as you did) there is a death involved in the Faith which is Spiritual, the death of Self and there is a reward for that. Now i believe that this pertains to the period after the 1000 yrs, which is eternity, hence we are kings and priests forever.

There are only 2, and you sure don't want to be part of the 2nd, that's for sure

there is nothing wrong with being in the second resurrection...well except you're not in the Book of Life.

rev 20 says:

[b]11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened[/b]

and then:

[i][b]and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[/b][/i]

The Lamb's Book of Life is also opened and so there are some who are written in this Book who stand before the Bema seat. In fact all the saints will receive their reward in full at this time.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us

True, if we SUFFER, suffering is not a nice thing, i don't know how willing we are to endure what He endured, but i know for sure that we wan the reward...

This is why we are called to the fellowship of His sufferings, as Paul said in Philippians 3...that I may KNOW Him, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death that I may attain to the resurrection....***the first resurrection. Paul is telling us to press on....read the remainder of that chapter....Yes, the WHOLE Church will reign and rule with Christ during the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign. (Those who mind earthly things are enemies of the Cross.....which would mean those pushing dominionism/replacement theology, are actually pulling you away from the Cross and the Purpose and plan of the Church...this is why we are called to OVERCOME the world...as 1 John clearly states what overcoming is)

it is not the whole Church that is Martyred. Rev 20:4

[b]4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/b]

the thrones are sat upon by those who were BEHEADED for the Witness of Jesus, also those who didn't worship the beast nor take his mark...hey wait a minute...maybe this is a hierarchy of who rules in the Church. think about it, it looks like it could be hierachical. Martyrs first, those who didn't take the mark nor worship the beast and were alive at his coming. you know that even among the angels there is a hierarchy. also the positions which will be filled by the saints belong to those angels who fell with the enemy. among those angels were cherubs and seraphims and the cherubs are chief among angels. mmm, you are right sis, we all rule with Him, just at different ranks. just like in the armies, there are officers of different ranks which are in charge of numbers of men according to their rank. Now the angels of God were appointed to have dominion over different things and areas, some large, some smaller. this is what God has shown me to be the Beauty and Utility of fellowship, wherein God can minister to us these things through one another and if we are open can come to a greater understanding of the Truth.

[b]thanks be to God for using you to open up the word to me a bit more so my understanding can be increased. i hope that your understanding has also been increased.[/b]

The Church is not ruled, but the Church will reign and rule with Christ. The Kingdom Age will be tough, and very legalistic. You will find the Kingdom Age rules and regulations in the book of Matthew. You see, Matthew is not a Book of Grace, but Law.

right, you know there is a hierarchy and we will rule (those who are resurrected at this time coz not everyone will be) over whoever is alive and who is born thereafter.

Grace and Peace is ours In Jesus.AMEN.

Bro. Ironman, Katy-did wrote'

"These are promises to the Church…us…"

to which you replied ...

"yes indeed, but not every member of the Church. you quoted Rev 3:21: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, yes, to him that is overcoming, but observe how this overcoming is to be: even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. how was it that Christ overcame? by being slain. now not every Christian has been Martyred nor will be, so not everyone will rule with Him in the 1000 yrs. To Rule with Him is a reward for death for Him. If we read the rewards which are given to the 7 Churches we see that they come after fulfilment of certain requirements. of course one can fulfil all of them and get every reward. Now to your point (i bless God that you posted as you did) there is a death involved in the Faith which is Spiritual, the death of Self and there is a reward for that. Now i believe that this pertains to the period after the 1000 yrs, which is eternity, hence we are kings and priests forever."

Then Katy-did answered you;

"If God Promised in the 7 letters to the Church a promise to reign and rule with Him, and no mention that one needs to be beheaded to do so, you are reading more into the above then you should be."

Wow bro i have to agree with Katy-did here ... this is like a new doctrine i've never heard before ... Praise God that you prefaced this with "i believe", but "i believe" you're wrong in this conclusion ...

You know at one point i used to be a staunch pre-tribber, but now i'm not so sure anymore, so i'm now TRULY a pan-tribber as in as God reveals it will pan out as it goes, and to tell you the truth how it pans out is neither here nor there with me anymore because my #1 concern is no longer at which point i'll be extracted (raptured) from this world (if i don't die first) but about my not being found lacking by Him in His expectations of my/our work in the harvest of my/our fellow vessels of mercy (those yet unsaved) and of my/our properly nurturing His Body (my/our fellow saints), both outreaches being empowered by Holy Spirit as my/our outward manifestation of His Love toward our fellow man and saint ... We both know He's coming back for a Church unblemished, of which it's obvious that we're not, so some correcting fire is due, to that we both do agree ... So my entry here ain't about when the rature, or the first or second resurrection, but about your conclusion that somehow only those "martyred/beheaded" (Rev. 20) will get to rule, reign and judge with Christ during the 1,000 years ... i totally disagree with this as so many scriptures aforehand testify to the contrary ...

1Cor.6
[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by [3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2Tim.2
[11] It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
[12] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Rev.2
[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev. 3
[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Every saint is not required to die a physical martyrs death, let alone specifically by beheading, to rule, reign, and judge with Christ during the 1,000 year reign ... It is widely believed that the 24 elders of the Revelation is comprised of 12 OT and 12 NT chief saints, these 24 occupying their own individual thrones and closer to God's own throne than all other saints afterward, so then by your reasoning only a percentage of them who were martyred would be eligible, excluding even the Apostle John who was the only disciple to die of old age? ...

We are God's, and in His service we are expandable and/or expendable, and are all payed the same wage regardless as i believe the following scripture makes plain ...

Matt.20
[1] For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
[2] And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
[3] And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
[4] And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
[5] Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
[6] And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
[7] They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
[8] So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
[9] And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
[10] But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
[11] And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
[12] Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
[13] But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
[14] Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
[15] Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
[16] So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Now lastly of ...

Rev.20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

i think it important to note the "ands" in this passage ... "And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded" is inclusive in a larger bunch of those participants of the first resurrection, not exclusive ... If God makes us exclusive as in the case of the 24 elders that's OK and His prerogative, but i think we have to be careful in making ourselves for whatever the reason as such, for we're all joint heirs with Christ ...

Blessings in the beloved name of Christ Jesus our Lord with whom we are already seated in heavenly places ...

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

sis K-D

you said:

If God Promised in the 7 letters to the Church a promise to reign and rule with Him, and no mention that one needs to be beheaded to do so, you are reading more into the above then you should be.

So, where exactly do you think the Church is going to be during this time, and isn't Paul a part of the church? Will he be included in the above? What about those who were shot, or maybe like Peter, hung upside down? is he excluded because he wasn't beheaded?

but sis K-D there is mention of being beheaded in Rev 20 and if you read carefully what i said you'd see that i didn't limit this only to the beheaded but all martyrs which would include Paul, Peter, ANderw and so on. in that regard it seems you did misread my post, reading more into it than was there. we tend to do that from time to time and i bless God that He makes it so we can be corrected because we all need it sorely! i hope that sets the record straight on that.

It says those who have part of the 1st resurrection will reign and rule with Christ.

yes indeed.AMEN.

There are only 2 resurrections..and the 2nd is to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement. Christians will not stand there, as we stand at the Judgement seat of Christ. Two entirely different judgements. We will be judging even the angels even ****at that time.

there are 2 resurrections but i think that some Christians will stand at the second resurrection before God. let us consider also that men will yet be saved during the 1000 yrs reign and i believe it is these who will stand before God at this time. let us look at what Revelation 20 says about this time:

[b]11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God[/b] [i][b]and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[/b][/i]

If every Christian was already given His due reward, why is the Book of Life opened? isn't that the book in which ALL Christians are written? Also the word says that men were Judged according to what was written in these books which were opened, one of them i believe is the Book of Life. i find it interesting also that only at this time is the sea giving up its dead. Perhaps our brethren who drowned at sea while in His service are the ones for whom the Book of Life is opened? Something to consider perhaps?

Now i want to go back to something which i said in the last post which you missed. i didn't go back and edit anything which i had written previously but in the moment that i was responding to your post, our Lord opened up something to me about Rev 20, i shared it in the post. i didn't feel led of God to go back and rewrite everything for the purpose of demonstrating His Grace and Mercy.

The reason i felt strongly about the beheaded ruling with Christ was because our Lord showed me my own death which will come in this manner. Now at first i hated that idea but in time our Lord showed me Rev 20 and i was comforted much, before that even He had shown me that His Spirit would be how i would endure all that must be endured. i didn't have a better understanding of this until our Lord had you and i go back and forth on this, and so our Lord had me keep what i had written the same and then add this to show that transition.

the original premise as revealed to me in part:

[b]the thrones are sat upon by those who were BEHEADED for the Witness of Jesus, also those who didn't worship the beast nor take his mark[/b]

the opening up of my spirit and mind by God working through you to bring me to a better understanding:

[b][color=0000FF]...hey wait a minute...maybe this is a hierarchy of who rules in the Church. think about it, it looks like it could be hierachical. Martyrs first, those who didn't take the mark nor worship the beast and were alive at his coming. you know that even among the angels there is a hierarchy. also the positions which will be filled by the saints belong to those angels who fell with the enemy. among those angels were cherubs and seraphims and the cherubs are chief among angels. mmm,[/color][/b] [i][b][color=0000FF]you are right sis, we all rule with Him,[/color][/b][/i][i][b][color=0000FF]just at different ranks. just like in the armies, there are officers of different ranks which are in charge of numbers of men according to their rank. Now the angels of God were appointed to have dominion over different things and areas, some large, some smaller. this is what God has shown me to be the Beauty and Utility of fellowship, wherein God can minister to us these things through one another and if we are open can come to a greater understanding of the Truth.[/color][/b][/i]

and then after having my eyes opened:

[b][color=0000FF]thanks be to God for using you to open up the word to me a bit more so my understanding can be increased. i hope that your understanding has also been increased.[/color][/b]

i hope that clarifies things! by God's persistence through you to increase my understanding i can see better now! i hadn't read all the "ands" as you said in that passage. it is interesting how our Lord will keep us blind to something for a time and things which we read all the time we miss until the time and manner of His choosing comes that we may have these Truths revealed to us.

Praise be to God indeed.AMEN.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus' Name.AMEN.

bro R.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

as i said earlier, i believe sis K-D initially read more into what i said as she thought i excluded others who were not necessarily beheaded. in another thread i think bro Eli was the one God used to let me know that the beheaded spoke of those who were martyred. This was the thing i had in mind when i posted at first. However the bigger thing is that i hadn't read all the "ands" in that passage (funny how God keeps us blind to certain things until His time comes about) and only through God's working through sis K-D's persistence on this issue did it finally hit me. As you and i know (and as God showed it to me through you) this is the Beauty and UTILITY of fellowship at work here!

Wow bro i have to agree with Katy-did here ... this is like a new doctrine i've never heard before ... Praise God that you prefaced this with "i believe", but "i believe" you're wrong in this conclusion ...

and indeed i was wrong and didn't have a better understanding of what God was saying here until now. in my response to sis K-D i brought back what i had said to her about this which she had missed since it was at the end of the post which you both were responding to. now my understanding is fuller.

So my entry here ain't about when the rature, or the first or second resurrection, but about your conclusion that somehow only those "martyred/beheaded" (Rev. 20) will get to rule, reign and judge with Christ during the 1,000 years ... i totally disagree with this as so many scriptures aforehand testify to the contrary ...

and the Beauty and Utility of Fellowship strikes again! i bless God that He used sis K-D as He did to open my eyes. as i said in my response, as i was posting to her, Holy Spirit opened my eyes and i lost my train of thought and concluded sis K-D was right. in that moment, i saw all the "ands" and rather than rev 20 talking only about martyrs ruling with Christ, i saw it as being quite possibly a Hierachical arrangement of the thrones. it hit me and then it came to mind that God's angelic creation has a hierachy in it, the angels have set stations and responsibilities of differing gravity and scope, and so i believe it will be in the 1000 yr reign for us who reign with Him.

Every saint is not required to die a physical martyrs death, let alone specifically by beheading, to rule, reign, and judge with Christ during the 1,000 year reign ... It is widely believed that the 24 elders of the Revelation is comprised of 12 OT and 12 NT chief saints, these 24 occupying their own individual thrones and closer to God's own throne than all other saints afterward, so then by your reasoning only a percentage of them who were martyred would be eligible, excluding even the Apostle John who was the only disciple to die of old age? ...

indeed. i had always assumed though that the 12 would have special seating and position since they were the foundational ones.This way John who was the only one not to be Martyred would not be excluded from rule. i didn't mean in any way to suggest that and i see how one could conclude so and so i apologize to you dear saints if i caused you to stumble in any way and ask forgiveness from our Lord and yourselves. Now i am not totally sure who the 24 elders are, Watchman Nee postulated that they may be angelic beings whose responsibility ends when the population of Heaven is complete since after a point they are no longer mentioned. it could be that the thrones these elders sit on is vacated for the 12 from the O.T. and 12 Apostles. Either way i pray God give us clarity on that and indeed all matters concerning scripture.AMEN.

i think it important to note the "ands" in this passage ... "And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded" is inclusive in a larger bunch of those participants of the first resurrection, not exclusive ... If God makes us exclusive as in the case of the 24 elders that's OK and His prerogative, but i think we have to be careful in making ourselves for whatever the reason as such, for we're all joint heirs with Christ ...

AMEN. and i hadn't even see those "ands" until yesterday! bless God for you both. indeed i believe our Lord will give us distinctions according to our service to Him and we are all joint-heirs with Christ. as you know, if He wants me front and centre, i'm not trying to be off one seat from that. If God has in Mind 1000 crowns for me, 999 will not do, i'm receiving for the 1000.

Praise God for His working here in setting this brother straight and giving me a better understanding of His word in this matter through you both.AMEN.

Grace and PEace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Praise God for the spirit of your reply bro Ironman ...

Jesus has His way of keeping us all humble ...

Anytime we might conjecture like this ...

Matt.20
[12] Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

He answers back like this ...

Luke.7
[28] For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

So that ALL of us no matter what He calls us to in this life, international ministry or local, international recognition or an intercessory prayer warrior who no-one may ever know our name, a martyr or the very last saint saved just seconds before GRACE as a grace period is cut off and they never have to suffer a blessed thing, can be all leveled out and equally encouraged by this ...

Rom.8
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Glorified together as a joint heir to me means what Christ gets, we get ... God is just too good - and thank you Jesus!!! ... :knockedout:

bro R

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Praise God for the spirit of your reply bro Ironman ...

Praise God indeed for His opening of my eyes that i may see more Clearly the Truth of the Scriptures. AMEN.

So that ALL of us no matter what He calls us to in this life, international ministry or local, international recognition or an intercessory prayer warrior who no-one may ever know our name, a martyr or the very last saint saved just seconds before GRACE as a grace period is cut off and they never have to suffer a blessed thing, can be all leveled out and equally encouraged by this ...

Rom.8
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
[17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Glorified together as a joint heir to me means what Christ gets, we get ... God is just too good - and thank you Jesus!!! ...

AMEN and AMEN bro! God is indeed too Good and thank you Jesus.AMEN.

Grace and Peace is ours In Jesus' Name.AMEN.

sis K-D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i thought we had exhausted this issue of Mary and Eve and all. i have no thing further to say on it save that i was saved out of Catholicism and am not going back.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by WHose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i do understand that those who overcome, overcome the world and all its trappings, false docrtines and all. This is why i press into God all the more because He spurs me to, He knows i don't want to be running around here deceived in anywise.

I wasn't aware the subject had changed, but ALL truth working together for good. The subject has not changed at all. The Catholic Church is earthly...not overcomers, yet we *in Christ* ARE.

i had said all i felt led to say as succinctly and simply as i could and so i didn't feel the need to say anything further. sis i agree with you that the Catholic doctrine on Mary as comediatrix, co-redemptrix are wrong. i'm not arguing that with you because there is nothing to argue about. what i am saying is that the devil doesn't invent anything new, every lie that he tells is a perversion of the Truth of God. so if Catholicism being of the devil says that Mary is co-redemptrix/mediatrix based on certain scriptures, this is because the enemy has perverted a Truth of God to deceive men. so what i see is this, Mary is represented there (or is there in the women in question) in Genesis 3:15 since Jesus is her seed, her child in a very real sense. She is also there in woman with the 12 stars, who we know to be ISrael also. She is this woman too (although we know some things don't apply to her so the woman is not only Mary, but Israel also) because she is a Jewess (Israel) and she did give birth to Jesus really. That is the Truth which the enemy has perverted by saying that this also makes Mary Co-redemptrix and mediatrix both conclusions are of Satan. i see your point sis but it would seem that you have yet to be quickened to what i am trying to get accross. One can most certainly separate the Truth from the lie in the searching of the word. See i see a much broader context for Gen 3:15 than Eve, Israel and Mary and can see those persons in that verse as i view that verse in the Eternal Context, this doesn't make me go for the Romish lie but rather see right through and call it for what it is.

If the Church is bone of His Bone and Flesh of His flesh....that makes Eve a TYPE of Church, His Bride...*US*, no need for a New EVE, or that teaching.....it's only anti-christ, and will draw you away from who you are IN CHRIST ALONE.

it seems you too are seeing the broader context of Gen 3:15! now what you shared here i hadn't even considered but i can bear witness to it.

Co-Mingling these truths is unacceptable. Many Catholic teachings are far to reaching in the Protestant Churches and has weakened the Faith....with many now practicing Ash Wed and Lent...a very Catholic tradition, that began to creap in after WWII.

exactly, and this is why i have tried to go to great pains to let you know how God has given me Grace to divide the Truth (and retain it) from the lie (and discard it) on this issue of Gen 3:15. yes i see Mary in ther, and ISrael, and now the Church, however i don't see Mary in this or any other scripture which alludes to her in the same way put forth by these damned Popish doctrines.

You still seem very sensative about many Catholic teachings that you seem to want to hold on to, or ignore rather then address.

if i may be blunt sis, you're dead wrong about me here. i told you in no uncertain terms that i am not going back to that mess. this has complicated my relationship with my mom (who is devoutly catholic) but by His Grace i am past that point of wanting to salvage that if it means going back to Catholicism. sis either you haven't read fully what i have said, and i believe i have gone to great pains to make my position clear, else you would see clearly that i have been given Grace to separate the Truth from the Lie in this matter. it seems our Lord hasn't quickened you to see what He has shown me as yet for reasons that are His own. i pray He does though. i have ignored nothing you have brought up but sought to address each point as clearly as i could.

Even if you are not going back, I pray you will let go! The subject never Changed one bit...you just haven't yet seen the connection of all the conversations and the dangers of these false teachings working against the True Church.

but i already have let go sis, i turned my back on that mess years ago. i felt i made my position abundantly clear but it seems you haven't seen that. you have equated my seeing Mary in those 2 scriptures with believing in her as co-redemtress/mediatrix and that is not true at all. it is like saying because i am black i am automatically a hooligan, which is not true. yes i see Mary in those sciptures but no i disagree vehemently with the Catholic view because i have been shown how Mary fits into those 2 sciptures/contexts properly without grasping at straws to make her out to be something she is not but only Christ can be. yes i am black but no i am not a hooligan. does that make it clear sis? :-(

In Placing Mary in Genesis 3:15 and Revelation 12 is where they come up with her being Co Redemptress, and all those other Co's, including saying SHE is the Ark of the Covenant......but WE,and we alone, His Church are Co-heirs.

yes this is true, the reason being that it is true that Mary is in those 2 scriptures but the enemy, the vile liar that he is, twisted that truth to have men believe that this presence of Mary in those scriptures makes her equal to Christ which is blasphemy. The devil didn't just make that up, he based it on a Truth and perverted it. you know very well that the worst lies are those which are so close to the Truth you need a very fine comb to divide the 2...

i have no idea how they got Mary to be the Ark of the Covenant also, that is beyond me sis, but the devil is slick...

Young men overcome the Evil one...1st John....Satan is the evil one who is a liar and was from the moment he opened his mouth. We overcome those lies of his as we press on for the Prize of the High Calling of God in Christ Jesus.

AMEN, this is how and why our Lord has allowed me to separate the lie from the Truth in this matter. After this i don't even know how else or how more simply i can put this. God knows my conscience is clear sis, i've made every effort to make his plain as i know how. if you don't yet understand it, i pray God open this up to you when and how He sees fit.AMEN.

i love you in our Lord sis and give thanks for what He has shown me through you and i pray our Lord has ministered something to you through me.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Abe_Juliot wrote:
One gives all the glory to God for electing His people and having His mercy on sinners. (not because of our will or our running)
One gives glory to Man for causing God to elect and have mercy on sinners. (because of our will and running)

You are seriously taking it out of context with no reference to its co-text.
The chapter is concerning who will be the lineage of the Seed.
[b]Rom 9:5[/b] [color=990000]whose are the fathers, and [b]from whom is the Christ according to flesh[/b], He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen.[/color]

[b]Rom 9:13[/b] [color=990000]even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau.[/color]
The reason why the Spirit says this is because it is to Israel, not the person of Israel which is Jacob.
[b]Mal 1:1-2[/b] [color=990000]The burden of the [b]Word of Jehovah [u]to Israel[/u][/b] by the hand of Malachi:
[b]:2[/b] I have loved you, says Jehovah. But you say, In what way have You loved us? Was not Esau the brother to Jacob? Yet Jehovah declares, I loved Jacob,[/color]

[b]Gen 25:23[/b] [color=990000]And Jehovah said to her, [b]Two nations are in your womb[/b]; even two peoples shall break from your body. And one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.[/color]
Therefore, your reference to [b]Rom 9:16[/b] [color=990000]So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God.[/color]
This verse is in context with Abraham [b]willing[/b] that the promise would come through Ishmael as the context proves
[b]Gen 17:18[/b] [color=990000]And Abraham said to God, Oh that Ishmael might live before You![/color]
Moreover Genesis 27 is Isaac [b]willing[/b] for Esau to have the blessing and Esau "[b]running[/b]" to hunt and make Isaac's favorite meal for the blessing.

Now for you comment,

"One gives all the glory to God for electing His people and having His mercy on sinners."
&
One gives glory to Man for causing God to elect and have mercy on sinners.

Abe_Juliot wrote:
One brings forth constant weeping and rejoicing in God's mercy.
One brings forth constant pride and arrogance in man's abilities.

But my view would be a cause for weeping and rejoicing in God's mercy because I found out of my shame in sin and saw the glory of God and chose from my own volition to humble my self to ask for His mercy and grace.
My own will yielded to the recognition of the glorious contrast of His brightness to the darkness of my shame.

Abe_Juliot wrote:
One boast in the cross of Christ.
One boast in flesh and blood.

Ones own will and volition is not of "flesh and blood"
I boast in the cross of Christ, for it is the foundation of my faith.
[b]1Corinth 15:14[/b] [color=990000]and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.[/color]

Abe_Juliot wrote:
One is God-centered.
One is Man-centered.