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Moral Government Overview

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sermonindex

This is a pretty good statement of faith I found on a website. It is respecting Moral Government Theology:

- God created man for intimate relationship.

- God and man relate interactively as personalities in real time.

- All sin consists in sinning. There can be no moral character but in moral acts.

- The power to do the contrary is essential to free agency. A free moral agent may always act contrary to any influence, not destructive to his freedom, that may be brought to bear upon him.

- Ability limits responsibility. Men are responsible only so far as they have adequate power to do what is required of them, or that they are responsible for nothing not under the control of the will.

- Christ died for all people in the same sense.

- His atonement paid for the sins of none, yet provided for the salvation of all.

- Each must meet the conditions of repentance, faith and continuance in the life of faith.

- Salvation is a present experience in the Holy Spirit--Christ in us.

- By forgiveness and spiritual transformation God declares right and makes right repentant sinners, not by imputing the character of Christ to them.

- God graciously forgives past sins. The New Testament says nothing about present forgiveness for future sins.

- The Romans 7 experience and the Romans 8 experience are mutually exclusive. They are summarized and contrasted in chapter seven, verses five and six respectively. Romans 7:14-24 represents the enlightened but unsaved.

E
enid

They lack the use of scripture in what they are saying, and assume that people know, or will read for themselves, about the Romans 7 and 8 'experience'.

Still, it helps, I think.

God bless.

S
sermonindex

Yea it totally lacks scripture. I don't think they intended it as a "statement of faith" like I said it was, or else they would have listed scriptures.

I was thinking about going through it myself and filling it with scriptures. But even without, it's a good overview of moral government theology. (I did list a lot of scriptures in my post: A Vindication of Moral Government Theology)

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sermonindex

A moral govermment is not an avenue to the Lord. A moral government and a person standing for a moral government is a result of HIS presence in their life.

The lack of concern for moral laws and HIS righteousness is:
John 19:15
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
KJV


Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

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sermonindex

This is the Mormon Statement of Faith, it sounds very much like Moral Government, you know why....because neither of them are the Gospel!


Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Under the direction of your Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:1–2). Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ overcame death for you. Everyone, the righteous and wicked alike, will receive the gift of Resurrection

After physical death, the reuniting of the spirit with the perfected physical body of flesh and bones. Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected.
resurrection.? When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will serve as the final Judge ( Acts 17:31; John 5:21–22; Acts 10:42).

Heavenly Father loves you and wants you to return to live with Him when you die. This is only possible through the Savior Jesus Christ ( John 14:6).

Through the Atonement
The suffering and death of Jesus Christ, through which resurrection is provided to all mortals and eternal life is offered to those who have faith in Christ and repent of their sins.
Atonement?—performed by Jesus Christ with His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by His suffering and the voluntary surrender of His life on the cross–He saves you from your sins as you sincerely repent and follow Him. ( 1 Peter 2:21) .

Jesus Christ lived a perfect life while on the earth, approximately 2,000 years ago. Leading by example, He taught how to pray and how to humbly serve others, and He demonstrated the manner in which all should be baptized.

If you follow His example as closely as possible, you will not only find joy in your life, but you will someday return to live with Him and your Father in Heaven. Specifically, you are to:

Have faith in Him ( Mark 11:22–24).
Repent of your sins ( Acts 2:38).
Receive baptism ( John 3:3–6), the

Gift of the Holy Ghost
The “gift” of the Holy Ghost is the privilege of enjoying His constant companionship if God’s commandments are followed. It is given after baptism to members of the Church by a priesthood holder who puts his hands on the head of the baptized person and blesses him or her to receive the Holy Ghost.
gift of the Holy Ghost?, and the other

Ordinance
A sacred rite or ceremony performed by the power of the priesthood and intended to bless God’s children. Some ordinances, such as baptism, are essential for salvation. Other ordinances, such as administering to the sick, constitute gifts from God to His children which are not essential for salvation. Many ordinances have symbolic meaning.
ordinances? of the

Gospel
The “good news” of God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. At the center of His plan is the Atoning sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, in whom alone salvation is possible. In its fulness, the gospel includes all of the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants whereby human beings can be forgiven of sin, overcome the world, and attain immortality and eternal life in the kingdom of God.
gospel? of Jesus Christ.
Keep His

Commandment
Instructions given by God to His children to prepare them for eternal life in the world to come.
commandments? ( John 14:15).
Today, as in the days of Jesus Christ, there are certain principles of the gospel that people are to learn to obey.

The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are:

First, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Second,

Repentance
The process of experiencing sincere regret or sorrow for wrongdoing, confessing one’s sin and asking for forgiveness, making restitution for any damage done, and committing not to repeat the sin. Repentance is made possible by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, who paid the price for the sins of all humanity.
repentance.?
Third,

Baptism
An essential step in receiving forgiveness of sins. Through baptism and confirmation by priesthood authority, we become members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Baptism is by immersion, meaning that the person being baptized is briefly submerged in water. Baptism shows our willingness to follow Christ’s example and to make covenants with God.
baptism? by immersion for the remission of sins.
Fourth,

Laying on of Hands
The act by a priesthood holder of placing hands on the head of a person to bless, anoint, confirm, ordain, or heal (Acts 6:5-7).
laying on of hands? for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
----------------------------------------------

[b]The gospel? of Jesus Christ is Heavenly Father’s plan for the happiness and salvation? of His children and is centered on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to show us how to live meaningful and happy lives and experience eternal joy after this life. Through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, you can become clean from sin and enjoy peace of conscience. To become worthy to live in Heavenly Father’s presence after this life and to receive this peace and strength, you must learn and follow the principles and ordinances? of the gospel. The first principles of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. The first ordinances of the gospel are baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?. After you learn and follow the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, you must seek to follow Christ’s example throughout the remainder of your life. This continued faithfulness is called “enduring to the end.” [/b]
God sent His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, into the world so that all of His children would have the possibility of returning to live in His presence after they die. Only through the Savior’s grace and mercy can you become clean from sin so that you can live in your Heavenly Father’s presence ( 1 Nephi 10:20–21; 3 Nephi 27:19; Moses 6:57).

[b]Because of Christ’s Atonement? and Resurrection?, all people will be brought back into the presence of the Lord to be judged according to their works and their desires and according to the laws of justice and mercy. The Savior satisfied the demands of justice for those who repent of their sins and endeavor to keep all of His commandments when He stood in our place and suffered the penalty for all sins. Because of the selfless act of the Atonement, Christ can plead with the Father on your behalf. Heavenly Father can apply mercy, withhold eternal consequences from you and welcome you into His presence. However, Jesus did not eliminate your personal responsibility. You must show that you accept Christ and that you have faith in Him by keeping His commandments? and obeying the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. [/b]

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sermonindex

The Romans 7 experience and the Romans 8 experience are mutually exclusive. They are summarized and contrasted in chapter seven, verses five and six respectively. Romans 7:14-24 represents the enlightened but unsaved.

What about vs 1 through 13?

Paul clearly makes the case that, when we were outside of Christ (not justified) we were married to the law. We were bound to it like a man is to a woman in marriage. Therefore, we were under its condemnation because we did not keep the whole law. In order to be free from this marriage to the law, someone had to die. When we believed the Gospel, we entered into the death of Christ.

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Since we were baptized (now identified) with His death we have died to the law. We are free from this marriage to the law and its condemnation.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We are in Christ. His death is our death. His resurrection is our resurrection. The law can no more condemn us, than it can condemn Christ.

That is why Paul makes the huge statement in Romans 8:

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Condemnation is a state of being, not a feeling. It is the result of a judgment against. Because I am in Christ, I am not under the condemnation of the Law (it is a fact, not a feeling, not an experience...it is a statement of fact for those who have believed the Gospel, regardless of how they feel.) The Gospel is first and foremost an objective fact of what Christ has done.

And walking after the Spirit is a description of those who are now in Christ Jesus, it is not a qualifier.

That is why substitution is so important. If you lose substitution, you lose the Gospel! Period!

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sermonindex

God graciously forgives past sins. The New Testament says nothing about present forgiveness for future sins.

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

If this scripture is read within the context of Romans 2 and 3, we can see that it is not talking about "my past sins".

In Romans 2 Paul is making a case. He explaining the fact that " man cannot and could NEVER be justified...by obeying the law. We know this is what he is trying to prove because of Romans 3:20

Therefore....everything Paul said up to that word (Therefore) is his evidence and proof to back up this next statement...

...by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

That is his conclusion for both Jew and Gentile. Since the fall, no Jew or Gentile has ever been justified in the eyes of God by the keeping of the Law.

But now...the righteousness of God without (apart from) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

He then shows (and you can go on to read in Romans 3) that Jesus Christ is the True Righteousness of God, and faith in Him justifies a man in God's sight.

So then the question arises, what about all those before Christ. How were their sins forgiven? What about Abraham and his sin, Noah, Rahab, David, Sarah, Isaiah, etc. They all died before Christ.

They all believed on a coming Christ. They looked ahead to the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world. They of course did not see what we see, but like Abraham, they believed in the promise, and their faith was counted unto them as righteousness.

In the mind and heart of God, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. God's forbearance with the sins of the Past was made possible because He knew Christ would come and satisfy the just requirements of the law.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

So the forgiveness of sins past is not talking about "my individual sins" that I committed before I was saved. It is talking about the mercy of God upon all mankind because of the eventual manifestation of the True Lamb of God who took away the Sin of the World.

R
roaringlamb

- All sin consists in sinning. There can be no moral character but in moral acts.

The Pharisees were some of the most moral people around, yet Jesus told them they were sons of their father the devil, and told one of their main men, "you must be born again."

Morals cannot save us, all they do is create either self righteousness, or despondency.

- The power to do the contrary is essential to free agency. A free moral agent may always act contrary to any influence, not destructive to his freedom, that may be brought to bear upon him.

Sounds like good old Pelagius-(The following is from an article) It may be found here
[url=http://www.reformationtheology.com/2007/07/pelagianism_in_the_formation_and_reformation_of_the_church-_c_r_biggs.php#more]Pelagianism In The Formation and Reformation...[/url]

[i]Pelagius argued with Augustine that God would not command us in the Law to live a particular way if he did not also give us this ability. He wrote to Augustine that Adam represented Adam only and that man cannot be placed on trial because of someone else. "Adam's sin merely set an ill example, which [man] has been quick to follow. Hence they almost all need to be set right…but after baptism man has full power and duty to keep the divine law."
This belief logically brings Pelagius to the conclusion that justification in vicarious atonement cannot be true either, because another man cannot represent the punishment of someone else's sins.

Man is responsible for the keeping of the law and his resistance to sin by himself. The obvious sinfulness in man in the fallen creation must have an ability to not sin, it is only that they tend to sin because we are born in a society where evil prevails. Men are born innocent, but the society that is evil seems to prevail upon them causing them to be bad.[/i]

- Christ died for all people in the same sense.

Then I suppose all will be saved then, and if one person is not, then this line is disproved. Also, if Christ died for the sins of all men, is not unbelief a sin? So then why do any perish for unbelief?

- His atonement paid for the sins of none, yet provided for the salvation of all.

Well this is heresy plain and simple, and the idea that anyone would give credence to this view shows either a lack of discernment, or a misunderstanding of sin, and their own salvation.

How do you answer these Scriptures-
Isa 53:5 But [b]he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.[/b]

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: [b]when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,[/b] he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 [b]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For [b]this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.[/b]

Heb 9:28 So [b]Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;[/b] and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

- By forgiveness and spiritual transformation God declares right and makes right repentant sinners, not by imputing the character of Christ to them.

This says we are justified by faith alone-
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And also, if Christ's obedience is not imputed to us, how can we stand before God, or have any hope of Heaven?

- The Romans 7 experience and the Romans 8 experience are mutually exclusive. They are summarized and contrasted in chapter seven, verses five and six respectively. Romans 7:14-24 represents the enlightened but unsaved.

This is really based upon a misunderstanding of indwelling sin. This verse alone shows that this is Paul speaking as a new creation, Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

no man that is not regenerate would care about the law of God, nor of pleasing God. The controversy within would not be present as an unsaved man has nothing within to battle the sin he does, or cause this battle.

Consider Paul's words in Galatians-
Gal 5:17 For [b]the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.[/b]

It would be foolish to say that he is speaking as an unsaved man here as well would it not?

Here is the bottom line, men love the law as a means of righteousness. They can use it as a means of boasting and belittling others who are "not as spiritual as they are." but if one would take the time to understand sin and its complete and utter ruinous effect upon man, man would never seek to be justified by anything other than someone else's righteousness.

There are many different religions who would be able to put somethng up similar to this as a means of righteousness. For they do not need Christ as their righteousness either. The Muslims believe in works, the Buddhists believe in works, the Jews believe in works and on and on, but God requires a true and holy righteousness. If you want to try to get this on your own through works of the flesh, have at it, but Paul said,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: [b]for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/b]

By doing this as well, you are saying that Christ is not enough, and you are opening yourself up to the warning given in both Hebrews 6:6, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

And Hebrews 10:29
"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

You see these Jews were going back to works of the sacrificial system as a means of justification. They were saying in essence that Christ's death was for nothing, as is Jesse's post, and this is very dangerous ground to be slipping toward.

R
roaringlamb

One other point,

If you are preaching this Jesse you are preaching a false gospel. For look at Paul's words here-
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that [b]Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;[/b]
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

That is the main crux of the Gospel. if you are believing that in fact Christ did not die for anyones' sins, I give you Paul's words about preaching another Gospel-

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from [b]our Lord Jesus Christ,[/b]
Gal 1:4 [b]Who gave himself for our sins,[/b] that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:6 [b]I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.[/b]

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sermonindex

Main Entry: \tmorality
Part of Speech: \tnoun
Definition: \tethics
Synonyms: \tchastity, conduct, decency, ethicality, ethicalness, gentleness, godliness, goodness, habits, honesty, honor, ideals, incorruptibility, incorruption, integrity, justice, manners, moral code, morals, mores, philosophy, principle, principles, probity, purity, rectitude, righteousness, rightness, saintliness, standards, uprightness, virtue

Before we can arrive the truth we must get on the same page. Is the above definition is what one would call morality. Are you saying the Pharisees were moral people.

The Pharisees did even know the Word the of God “the OLD TESTAMENT at that time, well enough to realize that author and finisher of the NEW TESTAMENT, THE WORD, JESUS, was fulfilling scripture before their very eyes when he read Isaiah 61 to them.

Now if we arrive at the fact that the Pharisees were not actually a moral people and only pretended to be, honored HIM with their lips but their hearts were far from him, then where does the philosophy and the idea come from that when people stand for a moral government that they are acting like Pharisees? I’ll tell you where it comes from, the Pharisees. This is a lie from the devil to destroy people. Where is no vision, my people perish he said in Hosea
Hos 4:5-6
5 You stumble day and night,
and the prophets stumble with you.
So I will destroy your mother-
6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

"Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests;
because you have ignored the law of your God,

R
roaringlamb

I think you were replying to me, so I will answer.

The Pharisees believed that because they did certain things, they were righteous before God. Jesus condemns that idea by saying, "except your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees..."

The issue is not if they were moral in the sense of right and wrong, but did they use their own form of morality as means to be justified by God? The answer is a resounding yes.

They too saw no need for Christ, as He could not possibly add one wit to their spiritual stature. They were offended by the talk of needing an "alien righteousness" or righteousness from another. They believed that since God commanded, then they could, and then they began to change what transgressions were, like in the issue of divorce.

This changing of what sin is is prevalent within many "perfection" types, and "moral" types as well. They change sin into "mistakes", or "unconcious misbehaviour" thus they can maintain this "sinless" state.

Of course if we would honestly humble ourselves and agree with God that we are as wretched as he says we are, and that all we are is sin and misery, we would see a great need for the righteousness of Another, and Christ would be exceedingly great to us.

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sermonindex

I don't believe anywhere did I IMPLY THE DID THE Bible IMPLY that a certain standard of living or keeping would justify righeousness would save us. What I implied was that a changed heart would occur and it would be a result of having HIS righteousness. By their fruits you will know them. As in how Saul being changed on the road to Damascus and his name being changed to Paul. In meeting Jesus changing or having a change of heart by the power of the Holy Spirit and as a result refusing to stand with the Pharisees as he had in past who claimed to have a moral ethics but did not keep his commandments. Paul turned from being with the group that was trying to silence Jesus and His authority and joined in to establish JESUS's authority and HIS righteousness. The Pharisees added to OLD TESTAMENT WORD thousands of other laws of their own and they were not even keeping the ones that were already there. When we read in the New Testament we see Paul still teaching and preaching the 10 commandments, not to be saved, but as a result of having Jesus' grace and mercy given to us.
Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.
KJV

Paul was changed and he didn't preach that anyone would accepted Jesus that it did not make a difference in a person's ethics and moral behavior but quiet the contrary. And to say moral and ethics have nothing to do with christianity is not true. They don't produce salvation, but it can't help but be a is a result unless we have a form of godliness and deny the power thereof.

N
Nile

The Pharisees believed that because they did certain things, they were righteous before God. Jesus condemns that idea by saying, "except your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees..."

This is what Jesus said about the pharisees in Matthew 23:

[i]Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,[a]that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.[/i]

When He said be more righteous than they, He meant it, for the pharisees were (in general) wicked men, "white-washed tombs", "broods of vipers", who took money from widows and other evil things. They were hypocrites.

They too saw no need for Christ, as He could not possibly add one wit to their spiritual stature. They were offended by the talk of needing an "alien righteousness" or righteousness from another.

Why do you say that the pharisees specifically believed this?

They believed that since God commanded, then they could, and then they began to change what transgressions were, like in the issue of divorce.

My friend, it is of utmost absurdity to say that God has commanded that which He knows cannot be done. That believe is unbiblical and will lead to antinomialism. Only a cruel, wicked, and perverse tyrant would command His subjects, under penalty of death, to do something which He absolutely knows they cannot do.

Here is an exscript from The Atonement by Albert Barnes, I hope many read it:

---

The atonement, it would be said, is designed, according to the usual representations of it, to furnish an exhibition of the character of God such as has been made nowhere else in his dealings with men, or to develop traits of character which could not have developed but for this; and evil was allowed to come into the system in order to furnish a means of the manifestation of the character of God which could not have been otherwise made; as if, it would be said, defects had been purposely allowed in the construction of a machine in order to furnish an occasion to exhibit in a higher degree the skill of the inventor: the existence of the defect, as well as the remedy, both being designed to bring out in its fullness the character of the inventor. In accordance with this view, it would be said that the doctrine of the atonement implies that there are certain attributes of the divine character which could be developed fully in the ordinary works of creation and Providence, but that there are certain others which can be developed only through the medium of sin and misery, and that, as it is desirable that the divine character should be fully displayed, evil has been allowed to come into the system in order to furnish an opportunity for the exhibition of a method of correcting it, thus developing certain attributes of the divine nature which could not otherwise be made known. The idea, according to the doctrine of the atonement, it would be said, seems to be, that there are certain attributes of the divine nature--as power, wisdom, skill--which can be sufficiently manifested in the works of creation contemplated as without sin or suffering; but that there are certain other characteristics of the divine mind which, in order to their being displayed, need the instrumentality of sin and suffering in his creatures, and that the fact that they can be displayed through that medium is a sufficient reason why the race was suffered to fall, and why sin and woe were permitted to spread over the world; or, in other words, that the benefits of such a display of the divine character will be a full equivalent for all the acknowledged evils resulting from the existence of sin, and all the woes that the race will endure. A slight illustration of this idea would be, that it is a sufficient reason why a wasting and painful disease should be suffered to spread through a community, that it gives occasion for the display of skill and benevolence in the healing art; or that, though multitudes suffer and numbers die, still, a sufficient reason for allowing the introduction of the disease would be found in the manifestation of what could not otherwise be known, the benevolence implied in a remedial system. Would not greater benevolence, it would be asked, be shown by preventing the disease altogether? Is not manifest injustice done to the suffering and the dying in bringing these woes upon them in order that there may be a display of the benevolent character of others? Could we vindicate an arrangement by which a pestilential disease should be sent upon a community, sweeping multitudes into the grave, in order that there might be a display of the mercy implied in the healing art? And can we vindicate the arrangement by which it was contemplated that a world should fall into sin, and an entire race of beings otherwise innocent and happy be subjected to the evils of apostasy, and pain and woe spread over the face of a beautiful part of creation, and all forms of crime be committed, and vast numbers perish forever, in order that the character of God might be more fully developed? Is not a grievous wrong thus done to an innocent race? And can there be any equivalent for such a manifest wrong in the fact that the divine character is thus more fully displayed? Could it be an equivalent to the multitudes that should suffer from the plague, or the smallpox, or the cholera, that a remedy was found out which would display in the highest degree the skill of the discoverer, and might in fact save multitudes of others from the ravages of the disease? And can any conceivable exhibition of the divine character, either to this world or to the universe at large, be a sufficient compensation for the introduction of sin into the system, for the wide, deep, and enduring desolations that sin has caused? If the question could have been submitted to the universe of created intelligences, can we suppose that any one race among those created intelligences could have been found who would have seen such manifest good as likely to result from the arrangement, that they would have been willing to be made the subjects of it?

---

I have a question for you roaringlamb...

The Old Testament many times speaks about "righteous men", "doing righteousness", "having righteousness", "being righteous" ect. specifically in the Psalms and Proverbs.

Who does the Old Testament refer to when it speaks of such people?

Looking to Jesus,
-Nile

S
sermonindex

Why do we cloud the waters. Either Jesus makes a difference in our life and because HIS SPIRIT live in us and gives us a desire through HIS power to make a difference in the culture around us or we believe he doesn't have any power to make a difference in our life and we believe HE has no power to make a difference in and through our life or the culture. It's one of the two, which is it.

After I take bath and get clean the last thing I want to do is go lay in the middle of garbage dump. I might be forced to but I want like it.

The Pharisees had access to Jesus but they wanted to keep the status quo, they wanted to do it the way they had always done it and would not allow HIM to make a difference in their life. Not all of the Pharisees did ignore HIM though. One named Saul met Jesus on the Road to Damascus and was changed by HIS power. He got a new name, a new song, a new life and was a new creation, he spoke with a new tongue. He did say the same things he used to say.
Old things had passed away and all things had become new. Then he was not ashamed of the gospel.
He no longer believe that Ceasar had all the answers but Jesus was King of his life. What the government said was not the rule of thumb. He might get persecuted for disagreeing but it did not move him. Man he had some power. Where did it come from?

R
roaringlamb

Why do you say that the pharisees specifically believed this?

It is easy to see, for their attitudes toward Christ. The questioning of his authority etc. Ultimately, His crucifixion.

The Pharisees are a wonderful picture of the natural religious man who believes only in an outward appearance but has no need for the inward heart transformation. Much of today's preaching focuses on the same things. We are told how to, instead of who did.

My friend, it is of utmost absurdity to say that God has commanded that which He knows cannot be done. That believe is unbiblical and will lead to antinomialism.

Really, can you keep all of the moral law? Could you keep all of the ceremonial law? Or is this the point of it all, that man cannot do anything to produce a righteousness that God approves of.

Now to say that this leads to antinomianism is ludicrous, for now you argue against St Paul who says, "by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified." and yet he has no problem declaring that the "just shall live by faith."

In your view I understand your concern, because man must generate his faith, and thus it becomes worrisome that he may fall. But in my view, as in the Scriptures, faith is a gift of God, and God promises that all who are called shall be justified, and all that are justified shall be glorified. Thus what God begins He finishes.

Now that faith that justifies will produce fruit, and it can be no other way for that would be in contrast to the Scriptures.

S
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Evidently you have a computer glitch and cannot read my post. In no way form nor fashion have I said or implied that anyone can live a sinless life and if they did, which is impossible, only one man ever did, Jesus who paid our sin debt and if it were possible it would justify us before God. What I did say was no one can have the Holy Spirit given to them and morality not be an important issue in there life which was what this post was about.
If you are not going to read what I wrote and respond accordingly then we won't get very much accomplished in our exchanges.
Rom 2:14-16

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
KJV

R
roaringlamb

Brother?Sister?
I do not know if you adressing me, and I apologize if my reply was taken as aimed at you, it was to nile.

I am sorry, please forgive me. :-D

S
sermonindex

My mistake. No problem. Have a great day.

N
Nile

Really, can you keep all of the moral law? Could you keep all of the ceremonial law? Or is this the point of it all, that man cannot do anything to produce a righteousness that God approves of.

My brother, which point can I not keep? In which point does Jesus not set free me? In which point does the Holy Spirit not empower me?
Please give scriptural support for which specific sin I cannot overcome through the blood of Christ.

Jesus said to a blind man, "May it be done to you according to your faith." I have faith that Jesus can cleanse me from all sin.

Also brother, please understand that I am NOT saying we are justified by our righteousness!!! We are made right before God because of the blood of Jesus, [u]on the condition[/u] that we repent of all our sin.

I have three simple questions which have taught me many things, I'd like to know what you think the answers to them are:

1. Which sin do I not need to repent of to be saved?
2. If sin every day, am I not living in sin?
3. If I commit the same sin every day, have I repented of it?

-Nile

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moe_mac wrote:
A moral govermment is not an avenue to the Lord. A moral government and a person standing for a moral government is a result of HIS presence in their life.

The lack of concern for moral laws and HIS righteousness is:
John 19:15
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
KJV


Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

moe mac,

Please tell if I am wrong, but I think you might misunderstand what Moral Government is (in this context)

He is not talking about a moral Government, like a ruling body over a nation or city, etc.

Moral Government theology is some men's interpretation of the atonenment, sanctification etc. It is a Theology, not desire for an ethical Government.

Again please let me know if I am reading you incorrectly.

Mahoney.

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sermonindex

You are right I was giving an answer to a different question I think than was ask. No moral government has nothing to do with santification. I did not read the article on what was being discussed. There is no atonement except the blood of Jesus Christ. The point I was trying to make was is there was 100 people strained on a deserted island and 50 were spirit filled christians and 50 were not and they started trying to set up a government by the people, of the people, and for the people, the christians would attempt to set laws and rules that was God honoring. Thanks for trying to clear this up.

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Jesus said to a blind man, "May it be done to you according to your faith." I have faith that Jesus can cleanse me from all sin.

Funny thing about the blind man is that he had no other resources. He was blind, and no one could make him see...not even himself. He was at a point of complete weakness. He did not know he had faith he just knew he was blind and that his only hope was Jesus.

------------

The point is not whether we can or cannot keep the law. Paul clearly makes the case in Romans 2 through 3 that "by the deeds of the law, shall no flesh be justified"

There is not a man on Earth that has every lived, that has ever been brought into a right relationship with God by his own obedience to God's Holy law. Not one, not ever. Even if you did keep the entire law (theoretically) then you still would not be justified before God because the fact is that God says His salvation comes to us by way of Grace, and not out of a debt that He owes us.

.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

But now....

The righteousness of God, apart from the law is manifested (revealed) being witnessed by the law and the prophets...Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ...upon all them that believe, for their is no difference.


My brother, which point can I not keep? In which point does Jesus not set free me? In which point does the Holy Spirit not empower me?

Brother, what you will find as you continue to walk with God, is that He will allow you to fail. He will put you in circumstances and situations where your zeal and your passion will fail. He will put people in your life that you will not be able to love by your own strength.

You will have seasons where all you will see is your sin, and your cry will be "Lord if you should mark iniquity, who could stand" And this scripture will become precious to you:

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin

He might marry you off and teach you how to truly love someone. He might even give you children, and then you will know what it is like to try to:

34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

And fail!

God's ways are not our ways. He must take us down to a death (that we have no control over) before we can be resurrected in His life. Yes the Holy Spirit will empower us to obey God...absolutely! But we will not avoid suffering before that happens, and much of that suffering is coming face to face with our own sin.

And all the while we remain Justified in His sight because of the righteousness of Christ.

N
Nile

Funny thing about the blind man is that he had no other resources. He was blind, and no one could make him see...not even himself. He was at a point of complete weakness.

It seems to me like you're implying I am saying we can help ourselves. We cannot be free from sin apart from Jesus, who sets us free, "free indeed".

He did not know he had faith he just knew he was blind and that his only hope was Jesus.

He did not know he had faith? Jesus asked him point blank, "Do you believe I can do this?"

There is not a man on Earth that has every lived, that has ever been brought into a right relationship with God by his own obedience to God's Holy law. Not one, not ever. Even if you did keep the entire law (theoretically) then you still would not be justified before God because the fact is that God says His salvation comes to us by way of Grace, and not out of a debt that He owes us.

You are both wrong and right, depending on what you mean.

1. Men are not justified [i]because of their obedience[/i].
This is entirely true! No one on earth can be justified because of their works! Even though they may be righteous after coming to God, their righteousness will never be grounds for God to pardon their past sin. That only comes through Jesus.

2. Men are justified [i]on the condition of obedience[/i]. This is very Biblical. The whole idea of repentance revolves around obedience.

Brother, what you will find as you continue to walk with God, is that He will allow you to fail.

This is not the God of the Bible.

Jude 24-25
[b]Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy[/b], to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: [b]but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.[/b]

You will have seasons where all you will see is your sin, and your cry will be "Lord if you should mark iniquity, who could stand"

I saw my sin, I saw utter destitution, I saw my guilt, I saw my just punishment - and then I saw His love, I saw His offer of forgiveness, I saw God dying on a cross for me - and then I stopped sinning!

Also, if anyone could answer these questions, I would be greatly obliged:

1. Which sin do I not need to repent of to be saved?
2. If sin every day, am I not living in sin?
3. If I commit the same sin every day, have I repented of it?

S
sermonindex

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy

I never said we would fall, in fact, He holds us in His hand the entire time. I said we would fail.

This is not the God of the Bible

Keep reading.

S
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Men are justified on the condition of obedience

Obedience to what? The law or the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is given to them that obey what?

S
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1. Men are not justified because of their obedience.
This is entirely true! No one on earth can be justified because of their works! Even though they may be righteous after coming to God, their righteousness will never be grounds for God to pardon their past sin. That only comes through Jesus.

2. Men are justified on the condition of obedience. This is very Biblical. The whole idea of repentance revolves around obedience.

AMEN!

[u][b]1.[/b][/u] Men are only justified upon [i]condition[/i] of [u]obedience to the gospel[/u], which requires repentance and faith.

Ro 6:17 - But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have [b]obeyed from the heart[/b] that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Heb 5:9 - he became the author of [b]eternal salvation[/b] unto all them that [b]obey[/b] him.

Those who are disobedient to the gospel will be condemned, ie, those who do not turn from their sin and put their faith in Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:8 - In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that [b]obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]

1Pe 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that [b]obey not the gospel of God? [/b]

A man must [b]obey[/b] God's command to repent:

Acts 17:30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now [b]commandeth all men every where to repent[/b]

Luke 13:3 "Unless you [b]repent[/b], you shall all likewise perish"

The Pharisees were some of the most moral people around,

????

[u][b]2.[/b][/u] The Pharisees were not righteous at all. They [i]"appeared"[/i] to be righteous unto men, but were not righteous at all, in anything. The Pharisees were total hypocrites, they were totally depraved without an iota of morality inside of them.

Matthew 23:25-28: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the [b]outside[/b] of the cup and of the platter, but [b]within[/b] they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, [b]cleanse first that which is within[/b] the cup and platter, that the [b]outside[/b] of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed [b]appear[/b] beautiful [b]outward[/b], but are [b]within[/b] full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also [b]outwardly appear righteous unto men[/b], but [b]within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.[/b]

The Pharisees read their bibles, went to Church, could quote their othodox theology, but were totally lost because they only outwardly obeyed but did not inwardly obey.

They only outwardly appeared righteous but were not inwardly righteous, because what they did they did SELFISHLY, they fasted and prayed all for themselves, and they did not do it FOR GOD, they did not do it genuinely from the heart.

And that is the difference between the [b]RELIGIOUS[/b] and the [b]RIGHTEOUS[/b]. The religious outwardly obey, but the righteous inwardly obey. The religious are selfish, they do it all for themselves. The righteous are benevolent, they do it all for God.

1Jo 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that [b]doeth righteousness is righteous[/b], even as he is righteous.

Mt 15:8 - This people draweth nigh unto me with their [b]mouth[/b], and honoureth me with their [b]lips[/b]; but their [b]heart[/b] is far from me

Ro 6:17 - But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have [b]obeyed from the heart[/b] that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

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I completely agree that a man is saved by obeying the Gospel. But, what is the Gospel?

If obeying the Gospel saves me, what is it that I am to obey.

------------------------------

And that is the difference between the RELIGIOUS and the RIGHTEOUS. The religious outwardly obey, but the righteous inwardly obey. The religious are selfish, they do it all for themselves. The righteous are benevolent, they do it all for God.

So I am made righteous by my inward obedience. What evidence do I have that I am obeying God from my heart? And if I do anything out of a selfish motive, am I then considered religious and no longer righteous?

S
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I completely agree that a man is saved by obeying the Gospel. But, what is the Gospel?

If obeying the Gospel saves me, what is it that I am to obey.

When Jesus called out to men, who became his disciples, the scripture says that they "forsook" what was with them, and "followed him".

And that is what I know obedience to the gospel is. It is when your forsake everything, abandoning sin and self (selfishness), and choosing to follow Christ. It is a complete and total yeilding up of yourself to Christ and His control.

To "obey the gospel" is to forsake all sin and self (selfishness), but not to merely externally forsake it, but internally from your heart; and to trust (put your faith in) in Jesus Christ, which is a faith (trust) that will follows Christ, because you trust Him and want to be with Him.

You fall in love with Jesus because of what He did for you on the cross, dying for our sin so that everyone can be forgiven, therefore you forsake everything and follow Him.

So to "obey the gospel" is to forsake everything (all sin, self, selfishness) and follow Christ. Not just follow after some external law, but to follow Christ from the heart.

S
sermonindex

Thanks for your quick response.

To "obey the gospel" is to forsake all sin and self (selfishness), but not to merely externally forsake it, but internally from your heart; and to trust (put your faith in) in Jesus Christ, which is a faith (trust) that will follows Christ, because you trust Him and want to be with Him.

Again, I agree with you, we are to obey the Gospel. But my question was not "What is obedience" My question was "What is the Gospel?"

So to "obey the gospel" is to forsake everything (all sin, self, selfishness) and follow Christ. Not just follow after some external law, but to follow Christ from the heart.

Again, what evidence do I have that I am following Christ from the heart?

R
roaringlamb

Brother nile,
Please forgive me for the delay in answering you, I did not want to simply throw up some random gibberish, but rahter wanted to look at your questions for a bit.

1. Which sin do I not need to repent of to be saved?

Repentance is not what justifies a man before God, if so, Judas would have been saved(MT 37:3)

What justifies or does away with our condemnation is faith-
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have [b]peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.[/b]

I have highlighted these portions so you see, that our peace with God is not based on something, but rather Someone. Note also that Paul says we "stand" in this grace, not slip or fall, but stand and rejoice in the hope of glory.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For [b]Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.[/b]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Repentance is a fruit of faith, and not the cause of it.

This faith is only given by God to whom He will, when He will-
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to [b]them that believe on his name:[/b]
Joh 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

2. If sin every day, am I not living in sin?

You do sin every day as do I in one way or another. Thus we must have a substitute whose obedience and righteousness is imputed to us.

This is why Christ is referred to as a "surety"(Heb 7:22), or one who undertakes to pay another man's debt, in case the debtor should through unfaithfulness or poverty be unable to do so. We are most unable to pay the debt we owe.

Christ also is referred to as a "mediator", or one who restores peace as a go between.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

God requires a perfect round the clock obedience, and no man can do this save One man the man Christ Jesus. Thus we need His righteousness, and to be placed in Him before the Father.

Now those who would dare say, "since we are justified, let us sin all we want!" Paul foresees this, and writes Romans 6:1-3 to counter this, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

Thus showing that a justifying faith will lead to the process of sanctification.

We can never in our flesh be holy enough to warrant Heaven, but Christ intercedes on our behalf, and we have the promise of Romans 8:29,30
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Also look at-
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

And we may link this Christ being the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world
(Rev 13:8)

Also one more-
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Notice here those who believe enter into rest, this rest is Christ, but also, notice when these works were done, in "the foundation of the world."


3. If I commit the same sin every day, have I repented of it?

Yes, but you must continue to, and God may leave that sin with you for awhile. God could in a second eradicate all sin in His children, yet He does it little by little.

The main thrust of your questions seem to stem from the idea that you can make yourself good enough to be accepted by God. But dear brother, Christ is the only righteousness God accepts, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags to Him. Christ's righteousness attributed to us is perfect, and completely by grace through faith, and not of ourselves or our works.

Many blessings to you brother nile

S
sermonindex

What is the Gospel?

The gospel is that Jesus Christ was a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, that Jesus shed his blood for all men, and thereby makes salvation possible for all men, making it possible for God to forgive those who repent and believe.

Again, what evidence do I have that I am following Christ from the heart

God of coarse gives us the indwelling Holy Spirit, as a seal and proof. But then there is another proof, or evidence, of fruit. John Baptist said to bring forth fruit meet for repentance.

A changed heart results in a changed life. The evidence of a changed heart is a changed life. The evidence of following Christ is being like Christ.

If I sin every day, am I not living in sin?

Totally! Sinning every day is a lifestyle of sin, it's continuing in sin. And those who continue in sin are of the devil. The blood of Christ does not cover a lifestyle of sin.

Only past sins, repented sins, are forgiven. Present and future sins are only forgiven upon condition of repentance.

The finished work of Christ makes it possible for God to forgive all repented sins. The cross fullfilled the purpose of making the offer of salvation extended to all, the atonement fullfilled the purpose of making salvation possible for all. And it is finished. No devil can take away the fact that all men have the possibility of being saved, if they repent and believe, if they turn and trust.

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