God hate sinners as well as sin?

he is, but Gods "hate" should not be confused with our for the most of the time sinful hate. When God hates something its not when i hate something. Gods hate is Holy and Good. I belive God hates the sinner, but at the same time he loves him so much he sent his only begotten son to be slaughtered on a tree.

Do i get how it all fits together? no not right now :-)

God loves us even more then we can imagine or ever understand, i dont see how HIS hatred should be any different, just as much as we can understand the depth of His love, we cant understand His hate towards Sin and sinners.

the reason i dont like the frase "God loves the sinner but not his sin" is becuse it is the sinner who goes forever to hell. Not the "sin"

but the good news is today is the day of salvation so if any man come, he will not experience this eternal wrath of gods holy anger.

Bwcuse Jesus took it on ! now thats Love!

Glory....

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=8309]The wrath of God[/url]

maybe people just need to define what love is :-)

Luke 14:26; If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

The Greek word here for ‘hate’ is miseo and it carries a meaning that spans from the deepest “detestation” to a simple “loved less.”

How are [u]we[/u] supposed to love? How has God commanded us to love? Now, as a point of reference Jesus also told us to to love our enemies (Matthew 5:43). John the Revelator told us that a person who hates his brother is in darkness (I John 2:9) a murderer (v.11a) and we know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him (II John 2:11b). It would make no sense for our Lord to tell us to ‘detest’ our family and love our enemies. It would make no sense for God to command us to love someone He hates? Ever give that one a thought? Quite an indictment! That is akin to accusing God of telling us, "Don't do as I do- do as I tell you."

We see then that the [u]context[/u] determines whether our Lord means to “detest” or to “love less.” Two basic hermeneutical rules to always go by?

1) allow scripture to interpret scripture
2) a text without a context is a pretext.

Vines dictionary of New Testament Greek words gives us some insight into the full gamut of the meaning of ‘hate’. He also speaks specifically to its meaning in Luke 14:26. He writes that miseo is used to indicate a relative preference for one thing over another, by way of expressing either aversion from, or disregard for, the claims of one person or thing relatively to those of another.

In Matthew 6:24, and Luke 16:13 it demonstrates the impossibility of serving two masters. In Luke 14:26, as to the claims of parents relatively to those of Christ. In John 12:25 it speaks of disregard for one's life relatively to the claims of Christ. We can simplify this by comparing two passages:

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:37)

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

Notice Matthew 10:37 is saying essentially the same thing as Luke 14:26. In one passage we are told if we “love family more” we cannot be a disciple and in the other passage we are told if we don’t “love family less” we cannot be a disciple. This essentially means that you love everything less than Christ. It does not mean you ‘detest’ your family. And it certainly does not mean that God detests sinners and expects us to love them. An example of this is seen by comparing two more passages:

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? (Matthew 19:27)

‘Forsaken’ here is the Greek word afieemi and it essentially means “to let go” or to "let drop." It is translated as ‘forgive’ in some passages to indicate that the transgression was allowed ‘to drop.’ If we interpret the passage as thus it is seen how the next passage can be equally true without contradiction:

Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? (I Corinthians 9:5)

did Peter forsake his wife? Then how was he leading her about? We see here that the same Peter (Cephas) had a wife that he ‘lead about.’ The Greek word for ‘lead about’ meant that he took her with him whereever he went. This is not forsaken in the sense of leaving behind, but is afieemi or ‘letting go’ in the sense that he did not consider her a possession to be grasped (Philippians 2:6). He lived his life as though he had no wife, etc. (I Corinthians 7:29). To have forsaken his family in the sense of abandonment would have meant he denied the faith and become worse than an infidel. (I Timothy 5:8) This is why young zealot Christians need to keep reading their bibles. They start making whole doctrines out of half-truths. Pretty soon people are supposed to hate their parents and God hates sinners. :-?

Moreover we are told to Honor our father and mother which is the first commandment with promise, that it may be well with thee and thou may live long upon the earth (Ephesians 5:29). If any curse his father or mother let them die the death. (Matthew 15:4; Mark 7:10)

Detesting the family also does not square with Paul telling the men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. (Ephesians 5:25)

So what did our Lord mean in these passages on hating family? What can we understand when we read that God HATES? He meant that we must love them less than we love Him and if it comes down to following Him or them- we follow Him. Some things God does detest- but certainly we cannot apply this in a blanket way to all sinners. To "love less" is almost certainly in view.

Could it be possible that we just don't understand God's definition of love? Could it be that we are humans and God is God and we simply don't grasp how that electing sinners to hell unconditionally is a 'loving' thing to do? Could it be that we cannot trust our 'sense' of love and hate? Is it a fair argument to contend that since the fall of man his idea and concept of love has been corrupted and had we not fallen we would understand how God hating sinners is the loving thing to do and is in no wise in contradiction to Him being love?

When a Christian is truly Born Again they have the Holy Spirit living inside. All of their senses (perceptions) and understanding are brought back into square with the way God designed them. This is why the argument that "we don't understand God's love" is impossible. "His love is different than our love, etc." is an answer used in the polemic arguments of the 16th and 17th century.

Think upon this for a moment; if I (we) cannot trust our (my) God given perception of love that was resident in my human nature and regenerated in Christ- then all of this is a sham. Would God seek to deceive man into believing love was one thing when in reality it was something else? Would He so deceive the regenerate that they could not trust their sense of love and hate? If we know not how to love- how can we fulfill the commands? This is the madness of trying to obscure the meaning of the word 'love' or any other word. Whether it be adape, phileo, stergos or eros- we have a human sense of what these things means and that 'sense' in the regenerate is reliable.

Great post Robert.

While I always thought Luke 14:26 was hyperbole, Psalm 5:5 does appear to say God hates sinners, or at least is capable of it.

Care to break down this scripture?

It was the thread starters original question.

**edit**
Once again, please do not cast me into any certain group, lot, or camp regarding this or any other topic…I am just tossing things out there to see what the saints have to say.

I am so glad that God LOVES evildoers, because "[i]there is none righteous, no not one[/i]" -- and He died for us "[i]WHILE we were YET sinners[/i]!"

:-)

Matthew Henry believed God had a hatred of a certain type of sinner.

Matthew Henry's Commentary on Psalm 5:5

As an encouragement to his prayers against his enemies; they were wicked men, and therefore enemies to God, and such as he had not pleasure in. See here. (1.) The holiness of God's nature. When he says, Thou art not a God that has pleasure in wickedness, he means, “Thou art a God that hates it, as directly contrary to thy infinite purity and rectitude, and holy will.” Though the workers of iniquity prosper, let none thence infer that God has pleasure in wickedness, no, not in that by which men pretend to honour him, as those do that hate their brethren, and cast them out, and say, Let the Lord be glorified. God has no pleasure in wickedness, though covered with a cloak of religion. Let those therefore who delight in sin know that God has no delight in them; nor let any say, when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God is not the author of sin, neither shall evil dwell with him, that is, it shall not always be countenanced and suffered to prosper. Dr. Hammond thinks this refers to that law of Moses which would not permit strangers, who persisted in their idolatry, to dwell in the land of Israel. (2.) The justice of his government. The foolish shall not stand in his sight, that is, shall not be smiled upon by him, nor admitted to attend upon him, nor shall they be acquitted in the judgment of the great day. The workers of iniquity are very foolish. Sin is folly, and sinners are the greatest of all fools; not fools of God's making (those are to be pitied), for he hates nothing that he has made, but fools of their own making, and those he hates. Wicked people hate God; justly therefore are they hated of him, and it will be their endless misery and ruin. “Those whom thou hatest thou shalt destroy;” particularly two sorts of sinners, who are here marked for destruction: - [1.] Those that are fools, that speak leasing or lying, and that are deceitful. There is a particular emphasis laid on these sinners (Rev_21:8), All liars, and (Psa_22:15), Whosoever loves and makes a lie; nothing is more contrary than this, and therefore nothing more hateful to the God of truth. [2.] Those that are cruel: Thou wilt abhor the bloody man; for inhumanity is no less contrary, no less hateful, to the God of mercy, whom mercy pleases. Liars and murderers are in a particular manner said to resemble the devil and to be his children, and therefore it may well be expected that God should abhor them. These were the characters of David's enemies; and such as these are still the enemies of Christ and his church, men perfectly lost to all virtue and honour; and the worse they are the surer we may be of their ruin in due time.

There are certain rules of biblical interpretation that are being clearly overlooked by those in the "God hates..." camp. One important rule is the fact that you do not and cannot make doctrine out of certain portions of the Psalms. Certainly David was moved upon by the Spirit of God and wrote under inspiration. However, you must also understand that many of the Psalms are David's raw human heart being poured out to the Lord. The nature of many of the Psalms are David, "Pour(ing) out my (his) soul..." Psalms 42:4.
If someone were to overhear my personal prayer time with the Lord and attempt to make doctrine out of everything I say, well let's just say that would be some messed up doctrine! :-)
Much of the Psalms are just that, David's pesonal conversations with the Lord. Therefore the Psalms are not meant to be primarily a source of doctrine, but a glimpse into what a Davidic heart of worship looks like. It looks like a man whoes heart is passionately honest before God.
So if one is to take Psalms 5:5 which states
"you hate all who do wrong. " and make doctrine out of it . . . then you must do the same with David's statement in Psalms 31:6 which states
"I hate those who cling to worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD." In this passage it is not God whom David is saying hates the sinner, but it is David stating that HE hates the sinner. Therefore, if one is to make doctrine out of Psalms 5:5 and say that GOD hates sinners, we must also make doctrine out of Psalms 31:6. That would mean that we must hate sinners as well. Yet this clearly contradicts Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27;35 etc... which basically instruct us to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..."
My point? If the emotionally charged, honest and passionate worship of David (which were never meant to be teaching or doctrinal statements) contradict passages of scripture which were clearly meant to be doctrinal in nature . . . than we must simply understand that David's emotionally charged Psalms were not meant to set doctrinal precedents but were meant to be a window into a life of honest, gut-level worship and devotion to God.
You must always take the whole counsel of God as doctrine and not a sprinkling of unclear verses that seem to contradict the whole.
These are just my thoughts...
God Bless,
Jeff

My dear brother . . . if you are correct then please explain the seeming contradiction to me. I would be honored to hear your response. I would also challenge you to take the Psalms of David and write up a doctrinal statement based upon every proclamation David made. You would find many seeming contradictions and elements of humanity. Any scholar will tell you that the Psalms primary purpose is not for establishing doctrine. And FYI I am about as far from being liberal as there can be. I am not a KJV worshipper - but I hold unswervingly to the word of God.

This is not in reply to anyone in particular.

In some threads someone will bring up what somebody said in one of their past threads, and draw from it what position they think they must hold because of that statement. I ask many questions on many subjects for many reasons, because of this I ask you… please do not cast me into any certain group, lot, or camp regarding this or any other topic…I am just tossing things out there to see what the Saints have to say.

PM,
I wanted to apologize if my last reply to you came off defensive or accusatory...I'm sorry. I do not want to sound harsh or arguementative.
Personally I have never seen any good fruit come from this particular teaching that God hates the sinner. Jesus told us that we would know a prophet by his fruit . . . since a prophet and his message are one we can assume he was speaking of the fruit of his message. I have personally seen no good fruit come from this teaching. Perhaps you have...

To me it seems that the WHOLE of scripture is opposed to such a thought, especially in NT theology. Take for instance Romans 5:6-10:

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Look especially close at the point being made in verses 7 and 8 - it says in verse seven that it is rare that someone would give their life for a righteous man and maybe, just maybe someone would give their life for a good man. Then Paul drops the bomb in verse 8 - but God demonstrated His LOVE FOR US IN THIS - while we WERE STILL SINNERS Christ died for us! There was obviosly a love for the sinner for that is what compelled the Father to send the Son to die for us. Furthermore, this is the heartbeat of John 3:16, for God so LOVED the WORLD . . . The world is clearly speaking of the pagan and ungodly, not just the rightoues law keeper.
The whole book of Hosea also illustrates this point very well. All through the history of Israel's prostitution God pursued her with a fiery heart of love. Though He judged her and wounded her, His heart was still aflame with love for her.
Just my thoughts...
God Bless!
Jeff

God Bless you my friend.
Jeff

I believe this whole “hate theology” seems so absurd to some because they are seeing it has one…LOVE…or the other…HATE. But the few I have spoken with that do subscribe to this hate theology do not think God does not love all sinners. They quote all the same scriptures that everyone else does for the love of God being for all.

But they believe He can hate and is capable of hate at the same time he can love. They chalk it up to Him being “God” and that there are things we do not understand. They never say God did not love even while we were yet sinners.

I would seem to me that they are okay with not understanding everything, such as God being able to hate and love at the same time.

I have heard this preached…cannot remember who or where.

Is this possible?

PM,
I appreciate your heart and desire for the truth. I must be honest though, I cannot reconcile your position with scripture - perhaps I am wrong, for I do not presume to know everything. However, even the very statement I am replying to contradicts Romans 5 -. You cannot slice up humanity into the elect and the damned and then interpret all scripture through that lens. That was not the light Paul was writing in so interpreting through that lens causes the scriptures to contradict one another.
jeff

Furthermore, this is the heartbeat of John 3:16, for God so LOVED the WORLD . . .

I heard it said that [i]trust is the fruit of knowing you are loved[/i]. Imagine telling someone that God [u]hates[/u] them and then telling them they must trust Him to be saved. We don't trust folk we know hate us, do we? Why? Because we know they will take advantage of an occasion to do us evil if given the opportunity.

I also think it is important to understand that the Hebrew word underneath 'hate' in Psalm 5:5 can also be translates as 'enemy'. Certainly we were all enemies of God in our mind by wicked works. And in this sense Psalm 5:5 is not in contradiction to what is revealed throughout the scriptures.

I think it is dangerous and false to present God in a way to folk that comes off as a pagan god in need of immediate placation. God is not in Heaven about to snap-off or something on some folk. God is a God that loves His creation created in His own image. A women may forget to love her own child but God will not forget to love humanity. His love is described as "the great love wherewith He loved us that even while we were dead in sin Christ died for the ungodly."

Mash mouth evangilism is no more effective than a mamby pamby easy believism. It is the goodness of God that leadeth men to repentance. Some people view God as such a tyrant that they will not approach.

I'm having a 'selah' moment here so bear with me. There is something wrong with us when we would prefer to drive people to God with fearful sayings and all manor of ferocity. As if God would be more pleased if someone came to Him in terror for their life scared that He was going to thrust them into everlasting torments in the next moment- [i]rather than[/i] them coming to God, led by the Holy Ghost, in true godly sorrow, in the light of His goodness and love. Almost as if we get the impression that a rabid parent who beats their child into obedience is to be preferred to one that would teach their child understanding in an atmosphere of love.

He cannot have fellowship with that which is evil because it would go aganist His very character. You mind is limited/finite so don't limit God to what he can or can not do (as long as it doesn't contridict His revealed character). Otherwise you are committing idolatry

This is something the Pharisees said to Jesus, in effect. They could not believe He was a friend of publicans and sinners. They could not believe He would converse with a prostitute or darken the door of the home of a publican. Our God is too holy to condescend to men such as this?! Nay, this is how holiness runs counter to the Gospel and Christ. This is the attitude that kept Christ appearing to be sunful and the pharisees holy. They tried to come-off holier than God and this is the approach they took.

PM,
Loving children and hating abortion does not have anything to do with the question, "Does God hate sinners?". Certainly we are to HATE wickedness and LOVE righteousness(PS 45:7, Heb 1:9) and ABHOR what is evil and CLEAVE to what is good(ROM 12:9). I think we would all agree on that point and that is not what the discussion is about.
What you are (in effect) saying is that you "love babies therefore you must also hate babies." That, my friend, is a contradiction and does not make any sense. The Paul Washer quote concerning abortion actually would fit better into my school of thought. God loves people and therefore hates anything that would seek to destroy them.
Brother, let me ask you the fruit you are seeing by preaching this message. Jesus said that you would know a true or false prophet by the fruit produced from their message. Are you seeing the lost, broken and hurting coming to Jesus regularly because of this message? I know the typical response would be something aking to, "I'm receiving persecution just like Jesus did! The true gospel is never popular! AARGH!" I won't even digress to address such a hideous hypothetical response. My question is, is this the message that Jesus preached to the sinner? Study to show yourself approved.
Jeff

PM,
You do bring up a good point there. Romans 11:22 does encourage us to consider the KINDNESS and the STERNNESS of God. Therefor to grow in the knowledge of God would be to grow in a revelation of both of these traits. I suppose one would have a tendency to lean towards one opposed to the other depending on which "school of thought" they have been most familiar with. For me I was raised more in a "fear God, repent or die" school of thought. That was my foundation. Therefore when I discovered the love of God it was Oh so refreshing! It did not negate what I had learned previously. In fact it was that foundation that allowed me to enjoy His love with boundaries.
I suppose if you came from a camp that over emphasized His love you would be naturally disposed to want to bring balance by emphasizing with sternnes. I see where your coming from.
It is important though to keep a good balance of both. We are encouraged by Rom 11:22 to give both his love and wrath equal and balanced consideration.
Jeff

What is Matthew Henry saying here?

“The workers of iniquity are very foolish. Sin is folly, and sinners are the greatest of all fools; not fools of God's making (those are to be pitied), for he hates nothing that he has made, but fools of their own making, and those he hates. Wicked people hate God; justly therefore are they hated of him, and it will be their endless misery and ruin.”

TJ,
Matthew Henry's commentary is very good and articulate, it is, however, just a commentary. You must study the WORD and let the WORD intrepret itself. I find that to be an attempt at explaining away what would seem to be a contradiction. The "a fool of their own making..." thing is to me, grasping at straws.
God Bless!
Jeff

I like this Annie.

In the book of John does he not say “your father is the devil”…That would mean they are not his children…???

Once again I am not of the “hate crowd” just asking questions so that we may all benefit.

Jimmie,
Punishment does not denote hate. It denotes the consequences of foolish actions. If I punish my son or daughter it certainly does not mean that I hate them, but that they willingly and willfully (did I say will? jk :-)) disobeyed my commands and incurred the punishment they had been forewarned about. The present dispensation is one in which the Spirit of God is striving with man, reaching out to him in love and compassion. We are certainly in the Isaiah 61 year of the favor of the Lord. Yet Jesus purposely did not finish reading Isaiah 61:2 - He announced only the season of favor and grace. The end of the verse however, speaks of the day of His vengeance. That is when the wicked will be punished. There is a set time in which the sinner can repent and flee from the coming wrath. If they ignore the clear storm warnings and do not seek refuge in the Ark which is Christ they will inevitably pay the consequences. This doesn't mean that the Lord hates them, but that they did not follow the presecription of salvation. (I know that I am coming from a non-calvinist viewpoint so this may be tossed out by some immediately.)
Jeff

TJ,
When Jesus speaks of the children of the devil, he is speaking to non-believing religious jews. It seems the staunch religionist who posses the gnosis knowledge of God w/o the ginosko (experiential) knowledge of God are those who experience and incur His wrath more than any other group. Those who would throw the prostitue and tax collector into hell w/o thinking twice and yet see themselves as "heavenbound" due to their head knowledge and deeds - these are the ones who, in scripture, were given the most condemning of titles and bleakest of futures.
just my thoughts,
Jeff

Thanks Jeff

Where is the glory of God then in the account of the fall of Adam and Eve, Soddom and Gomorrah, etc... Were God's hands tied?

The bible goes together, every verse, no contridictions. If you throw out passages or ignore them, again, you are commiting idolatry and serving a god that you're comfortable with.

It would be better to say that passages such as Psalm 5:5 make no sense at all than to conflict with the clear revelation of the vast majority of passages that reveal a God of love.

Regardless of how we interpret Psalm 5:5 we are faced with the revelation of Jesus Christ who is the image of the invisable God. Want to know how God 'feels' about something- what did Jesus say? Did He weep over a rebellious Jerusalem? That's how He feels about sinners. It was the disciples that wanted to call fire from heaven. Why? They knew not what manor of spirit they were of. Elijah did it? He was a righteous man; so why can't we do it? What 'manor' of spirit is that? Is it one that seeks to save or one that seeks to destroy?

Somehow I get the impression that some folk think a God of love is somehow a 'sissy' God so they have to somehow deflect His loving characteristics to make Him appear hostile and masculine. This is nonsense. Any dead fish can float downstream and anyone can hate a person. It is easy to hate and to hurt- but who can heal and love?

i think this original question has been answered well in saying the interpretation of the word "hate" is in question. It may come down to the fact that english is a poor dialect to read God's Word in compared to other dialects. There are many words used for love in greek but we are stuck with "love". So we look at the original greek for the meaning. Same with hate. Otherwise we are confounded to explain how

"Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. "

yet

Exd 32:14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.