OPEN AIR PREACHING

so they love Him because He first loved us.

AMEN!!!!

The Scriptures teach that we are saved by grace through faith. And Paul tells us that saving faith comes by hearing the word of God. And the content of that saving faith is that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that God has raised Him from the dead. Without such a belief and confession, no man can be saved, for such a belief and confession is the grounds of our salvation.

So above all, preach the cross of Jesus Christ. Preach Christ crucified. But as my pastor once pointed out: It's not the Jesus on the cross that can do anything for you, but it's the Jesus at the right hand of the Father in heaven that can do something for you. Unless men come to have a revelation that Jesus Christ is alive, they will remain dead in their sin.

So, to be a merely moralist in your preaching, and preaching the law will simply not do. While it is necessary to call out sin (as men must repent of their sins), all the conviction and repentance in the world will mean nothing unless they come to believe that Jesus Christ is alive from the grave.

If you closely study the book of Acts, you will find that was the true thrust of apostolic preaching. You can see that from Peter's preaching on the day of Pentecost to Paul's preaching before Felix & Agrippa. Peter preached "You Jews sinned by murdering Jesus Christ, whom God raised from the dead." Paul preached, "God's appointed a day when all men will be judged for their deeds, by One whom God raised from the dead!"

This in a nutshell is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The resurrection of Christ must not be merely an "oh, by the way..." thing we add to the end of our preaching. It must be the very center of it. And such preaching can only issue out of the life of a person who has indeed made Christ their very life, and are dependent upon the resurrection power of Christ. It's easy to fake true preaching by going out to do open-air with a bag of tricks you learned from Ray Comfort and WOTM. But what you can't fake is resurrection power.

The problem with so much street preaching is that some of us street preachers go out merely to convince men that they are awful sinners in the hands of an angry God. And while this is true, and such must be preached, don't take a truth and make it the truth. For such ought not to be the grounds of their repentance. For what turned the world upside down in the book of Acts was not convincing men they were awful sinners (the Pharisees had long been doing that)... but what turned the world upside down was that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. As a result of such a belief, genuine repentance comes forth. For to believe such an awesome thing, that God raised a dead man back to life after three days, how can one ever remain the same after coming to believe such a thing?

Sadly though in my typing of this, many of you who read this will not hear. You'll go on with your silly moralizing sermons and bag of tricks. And why? Because you yourself have not truly had a personal revelation of the holiness of God and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Instead, you will go out in your own power to preach, instead of going out in His. And as Art Katz has wonderfully shown, there is a difference between "went" and "sent."

There is a great book I'm reading now that I think every street preacher should read. I'm only 1/2 way done with it now myself, but have found it amazingly good.

"The Soul Winner" by Charles H. Spurgeon. He has so much more to say about preaching to the lost than what WOTM and others have credited him with. In fact, such a use of him is a rather shallow use of him. He had so much more wonderful things to say.

I recently posted a chapter out of his book from "The Soul Winner" here on SI. The name of the chapter is, "How to Raise the Dead." It would be something all of us should carefully read and digest:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18112&forum=34#142040]How To Raise the Dead by C. H. Spurgeon[/url]

Let them know they have the S.I.N. virus before we give them the gospel cure.

This generally is a nice idea, but nowhere in Scripture is such demanded as a logical first required order. A preacher once said, if you were to take somebody who had never known anything but poverty their entire lives and suddenly placed them in the house of a rich man, they would instantly notice the difference without somebody saying so much as a word.

So it is with Christ. Once a sinner truly gets a glimpse of Christ, and just how majestic He is, they will realize their poverty. It's much like Isaiah 6, where Isaiah had a revelation of the majesty and holiness of God, and instantly he realized something about himself and his people that he had never seen before... and he was one already well acquainted with the law. But until that revelatory experience, he still remained blind of his sin.

Such is why first and foremost with our preaching, whatever we preach we must convey a sense of God and who He is. For unless we bring heaven down, and actually make Christ known, then all our preaching is but vain repetitions.

This generally is a nice idea, but nowhere in Scripture is such demanded as a logical first required order.

KJ, it's very good that you understand this. Not many do. I suppose it must be experienced rather than acquired from a book. I've found out that there are no formulas with God, no efficacious orders of presentation. God looks for those who have purified their souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit. He searches for clean vessels that have no confidence in the flesh. Such men and women are filled with the wisdom of the Spirit and are led by God in their preaching and presentation of the gospel.

Once a sinner truly gets a glimpse of Christ, and just how majestic He is, they will realize their poverty.

Precisely! As Zac Poonen would say, [i]the expulsive power of a new affection.[/i]

Brother Paul

My point is that if you told me every attribute of God and the beauty of who He is, the great I AM. A sinner would say 'that's cool but what does that have to do with me'.

I'm not talking about merely naming the attributes of God in a sermon. I'm talking about actually manifesting the presence of God in your preaching. I'm talking about bringing the realities of heaven down so as to manifest them while preaching. If God's presence is truly made known, such alone will convey His awesomeness in a way merely listing His attributes will not.

The sinner must recognize what he is because he is blind and dead to ever understanding what you're talking about.

While the law is a school master, unless you actually convey the dread of God in your preaching through His manifest presence, the sinner will never understand. Moses is still read in the Synagogue today, but still a veil remains over the eyes of the Jews.

KJ, it's very good that you understand this. Not many do. I suppose it must be experienced rather than acquired from a book. I've found out that there are no formulas with God, no efficacious orders of presentation. God looks for those who have purified their souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit. He searches for clean vessels that have no confidence in the flesh.

Amen.

Way of the Master is a great place to start out, using the law to bring about the knowledge of sin (although there are dozens of NT scriptures that you can use in place of the 10 commandments)... however it is a terrible place to stay and can result in preaching that is just as fleshy and powerless as the modern gospel presentation.

Amen. Let it not be misunderstood that I am by anyways condemning WOTM. It, like Evangelism Explosion and so many other things, are great tools to utilize when preaching, and we can glean many principles from them that are indeed, rooted in Scriptures. But to use WOTM and other systems as a substitute for seeking the Lord yourself as to what you will preach, and seeking Him for an anointing and life-giving word, is error.

Any system of preaching, no matter how grounded it is Biblically speaking, will result in life. Look no further than the Law and the temple system for examples of this.

KingJimmy, I think we have a misunderstanding, my topic is on open air preaching, not preaching to sheep at the church.

Indeed, I'm talking about open-air preaching.

I'm saying that if you preach and convey God's attributes God-hating, sin loving, dead in sin, rebellious sinner; he will mock you or at best raise his eye brow.

I don't think you actually understand what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actually demonstrating God's attributes through His manifest presence. Do you actually understand what I mean by God's manifest presence?

When we show sinners how dark and depraved their nature is through the law, then they can properly see all the glories of God through Christ crucified and resurrected.

Indeed, and the law is good for pointing out sins. However, without a tangible expression of God's presence that accompanies preaching, such is all one will do.

Yes this is true but it doesn't change the fact that presenting the law makes sinners see that they must repent. You guys are acting like your above using the law when in fact Jesus, Paul, the apostles, and great preachers in church history all used the law as a top priority.

I think you may be misunderstanding KJ. From what I gather he essentially is saying, "It's not a method people need, nor a 5 step plan, but a revelation of God."

Surely God can and does reveal himself through preaching "law" but He isn't bound to a principle that says "law first, then grace."

Mere words don't reveal God. Articulating certain doctrines or principles will never do. No, the kingdom of God is not in word but in power! These are things we know, but they must be a reality in our lives.

Here are some great scriptures.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Praise God! I'm glad you aren't to spiritual to see the truth, black and white. Great point!

You shouldn't accuse people of being "to spiritual" unless you are sure that is what they are trying to be. Are you sure that the ones who are trying to bring another point to you are acting "too spiritual?"

Sinners are not going to be convicted of sin and regenerated hearing a sermon on finding the champion in you! God has given us His law and gospel to preach and that is what how it is, plain and simple

If you want them to them to find their inner champion you preach health, wealth and prosperity. God's presence will not fall but the all those champions will go to hell.

No one on this thread is even alluding to preaching such nonsense. I'm not sure your getting what KJ and others are trying to get across.

Here is a great quote:

"We are continually striving to create new methods, plans and organizations to advance the church. ... Men are God's method.

The Church is looking for better methods; God is looking for better men."

-E.M. Bounds

You guys are acting like your above using the law...

Nobody here has done such a thing. We've all affirmed the necessity of invoking God's commandments. The only thing some of us are against is running away with simply preaching God's commandments and becoming mere preachers of morality, as often is the habit of some open-air preachers that frequent this site. And instead of invoking a certain methodology to preaching open-air e.g. step-1-2-3, some of us are simply pleading that our fellow brethren rely more on the leading of the Spirit of God to give a fitting word in due season.

Jesus, Paul, the apostles, and great preachers in church history all used the law as a top priority.

This is an oversimplified statement that is commonly said, but lacks historical and Biblical reality. It is the common error many often make, by taking "a" truth and making it "the" truth. No doubt, the law was invoked. But if you truly study these matters much more closely, and truly read the authors that are often used to justify such sayings, you will find that programs such as WOTM have had a tendency to cherry-pick quotes from the likes of Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Wesley, Whitefield, Spurgeon, Moody, etc.-- instead of understanding their more holistic approach to preaching.

But God's presence will not fall on any ol kind of preaching.

Indeed.

Sinners are not going to be convicted of sin and regenerated hearing a sermon on finding the champion in you!

Amen.

Great E.M. Bounds quote.

pm4Hisglory wrote:
Yes this is true but it doesn't change the fact that presenting the law makes sinners see that they must repent. You guys are acting like your above using the law when in fact Jesus, Paul, the apostles, and great preachers in church history all used the law as a top priority.
Just because the law is used doesn't mean all the jews or any sinner will believe.

Personally, I aim be keep the proper tension between simplicity and complexity in evangelism. It is simultaneously logical and mysterious, and was always intended to be so.

For me, the Law is a tool of logic. I love to approach a sinner's sense of intellect with the Law, by asking them if they had ever considered the implications of God's existence. The logic is simple, God made the universe, and therefore has sole right to define its parameters. God is loving, proven by the fact that He hasn't carelessly wiped us out for our collective rebellion. God's Law are logical, and if we are honest, we'd agree that they are good, protecting us from others, and others from us. From this basis I "take them through the Law", emphasise judgement, preach the Cross (death, burial and resurrection), and describe regeneration. It's funny how once the sinner's guilt is established in their own mind, logic can be cast to the wind, in favour of the "Mystery of the Cross".

The Cross and regeneration are crucial, because this is what "saves". Fact is, "Except a man be [b]born again[/b], he cannot [b]see[/b] the Kingdom of God". In other words, he cannot see God's sphere of influence, rule, and locality, as being God's. I love to walk someone through Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus, and watching their head spin, just as Nicodemus' did, pausing before unveiling Nicodemus' comments, like "How can a man be born when he is old...", and "How can these things be?" It's funny how they tend to respond in like manner, and our friend Nicodemus serves well in unveiling the existence of the "[b]Mystery[/b] of the Cross", which is "foolishness to those who are perishing".

If Nicodemus, [b]the[/b] teacher of Israel, couldn't get a handle on this, then how did they think that they could understand God? "It's like you're trying to peak into the windows," I'd usually say, "but they're painted black, baby. You've got to walk in through the narrow gate, if you are ever going to get this. It cannot be seen, except from the inside." Then I often tell them, "Take this (Ten Commandment) coin, get alone before God (who they realise now [b]must exist[/b]), and ask Him about every time you broke one. And then write them down, one at a time. When your done, ask Him what you have forgotten, and write down the rest. That's the (insert name here) that Jesus died for. If you don't want to repent after reading that list, then something is seriously wrong."

Although this might seem a little "formulaic", I assure you it isn't. It's simply a loose framework that I work with. WWJD, and into C-CRAFT ignores the Eunuch's need to have Phillip come alongside and explain Isaiah to him. I don't know if you picked up on it, but what I tend to do is bear witness to the Holy Spirit's testimony to the world, ie "[b]Sin[/b], because they believe not on (Jesus)... [b]Righteousness[/b], because you see (Jesus) no more...[b]Judgement[/b], because the prince of this world stands condemned."

Other slight variations include contrasting God's sovereign rule (as defined by the Ten Commandments), with the ways of the world (ie, lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and pride of life - ala Paris Reidhead's [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=38]Dangers of Third Generation Religion[/url]) in order to demonstrate the logic of disobedience, and why they simultaneously consider the Ten Commandments to be fair and unfair.

Overall, my goal is always to show the sinners themselves, as they are, to love the sinner, as God loves His enemies, and to seek to fill their mouth with "spiritual salt", followed by pointing the way to the "water of life". One last thing, I go to great pains to make sure that they don't let anyone tell them that they are "saved", but to let the "Spirit bear witness with their spirit", and show them how to confirm that witness in Scripture. To paraphrase Martha Ravenhill, "If someone can convince him into the Kingdom, then someone can convince him out".

If they are particularly responsive, I give my details, but I never initiate follow up. If they are hungry, they'll seek out the food they need. And I always pray for God to further convict them, and have mercy on them as they come to mind, and [b]let them know that I will do so[/b]. There is something about the consciousness of knowing that the "Hound of Heaven" is hot on your heels...

The overriding theme is to present ultimate reality, with all its beauty and barbarity. WoTM was definitely my starting point, but as Jimmy (and others) have said, there is much that is lacking. Be led of the Spirit, in evangelism, rather than merely cloning Ray, or anyone else for that matter.

My two cents (plus change:-P) ...

Then I saw that Welsey did NOT preach 90% law and 10% grace as many WOTM junkies would believe, but in the end it led me to see greater truth and so I thank God for that!

Amen.

jimdied2sin wrote:
This is the great thing about WOTM though, it's how I first encountered the writings of the revivalists. Then I saw that Welsey did NOT preach 90% law and 10% grace as many WOTM junkies would believe...

I'm sure we all share a similar story, but sadly very few WoTM junkies "kick the habit". Being involved with WoTM Australia, it is refreshing to be around people who don't hold Ray's words second only to those of Christ.

Ray is like kindergarten, while the revivalists are like high school. University, on the other hand, is walking with God, living a life which is characterised by "praying always", and receiving from the source. Accept no imitations. ;-)

Being involved with WoTM Australia, it is refreshing to be around people who don't hold Ray's words second only to those of Christ.

Indeed. I can relate. I've been in the cult of Ray Comfort before. Now I'm in the cult of Art Katz :-)

In all seriousness though, I think to some degree the reason we cling so tightly to various evangelistic methods such as WOTM is that deep down inside, we know we are rather powerless without these methods, and thus, we cling to it. But far from being anything we should cling to, things such as WOTM were only meant to a tool that we would be equipped with to do the work of evangelism. WOTM and the like are merely meant to be frameworks from which we do what we do.

To some degree, we can think of evangelism as both an art and science. That is, there are some definite hard facts and truths we need to communicate. This is the scientific aspect of it. But the art aspect of can only come from the Master painter Himself. And I think many of us, as has been my experience, prefer to make the entire thing simply a science. But in reality, so much more of it is an art.

I think we make it more a science out of a sense of insecurity. Indeed, who is sufficient for these things? But thank God our sufficiency is to be found in Christ, and Him alone! It takes a great deal of trust to let go and let God. But such is a cross we should not try avoid. For if we attempt to circumvent the cross, there shall be no glory. But if we embrace the cross, then I believe we shall be a group of open-air evangelist who aren't simply being copies of Ray Comfort, but rather, Jesus Christ.

And the result? We will be a people who can give a word in due season that will so penetrate the hearts and minds of our hearers so as to secure their salvation. Indeed, the little fruit I have seen in my own ministry has come from the word that I have been able to give in due season.

God bless you in your training course jimdied2sin. I look forward to going out and doing more evangelism myself. I have gone through a silent period for a short season until this past week. And after having taken a small team of saints door knocking this past week, I am absolutely buzzing and awaiting the chance to go door knocking and do open-air again :)

Be in prayer for me though. I am considering an outreach in a couple weeks to a really bad part of town where, my brother-in-law who is a police officer seldom has ever cared to go there even when called upon. I am considering making this a men's only activity due to the great danger involved. I'm thinking due to the great number of drug dealers in the area, to avoid door knocking altogether, and simply do open-air.

What do you mean exactly when you say due season and how would this apply to open air?

By "due season" I have in mind the notion of Divine appointments. That is, you are exactly where God needs you to be, preaching on what God has given you in the moment, and preaching that will grab a person to whom God has given the ear to hear that message.

The most vivid example of this comes from a time I was sitting at the break room at work. A group of employee's came and sat with me and we were talking. One of them knowing I was a Christian decided to ask me what I believed about God. At that time I felt led to reverse the question they asked me and ask them what they believed about God. They simply replied they believed there was one, to which I replied that the demons believed such as well, and went on to say a few other things.

A few days later this person gave their heart to the Lord. They said the simple thing I had said brought them tumbling down. As the gospel began working in this persons life, I learned that this coworker of mine had run away from home when she was 17 years old. She was a Jew. As the Lord reconciled her and her family after 10+ years of estrangement through her being saved, it turns out that her sister had been saved a year or two before that, and begun having the home-group she was a part of to pray for her sister's salvation and reconciliation every day. Then this woman simply came across my way at work, and I spoke the word the Lord gave me in the moment in due season. And such penetrated her in a way that I don't think anything else would have.

The drama comes in when people who have moved beyond Ray's teaching forget that the Lord used him to open their eyes to biblical evangelism. Rather than express true delight for what the Lord has done through that ministry, they'd rather criticize it because it's not as spiritual as whatever they are doing and it is enormously self-fulfilling to do so.

It also comes in when they use deliberate exaggeration to make points regarding people who are active in WoTM.

It comes from pet theologies that ignore the clear teaching of Scripture (mostly New Testament) on the use of the Law.

Finally, it just comes from pride. They forget that anything they have ever learned they received from someone else, by God's grace. Some folks are just so spiritual, they don't bother with human teachers, they go straight to God. The Shekinah glory appears in their room every night.

Having said that, I don't disagree with a lot of their points. I just question the tone and motivation. Bottom line: ignore the hype, study the Word and preach it.

Blessings,

Jon

pm4Hisglory wrote:
So I personally like Ray Comforts ministry because it is a simple effectively way to open air preach and stay on the topics that matter. But why is there so much drama when it comes to using the law to do so?

Finally, it just comes from pride. They forget that anything they have ever learned they received from someone else, by God's grace. Some folks are just so spiritual, they don't bother with human teachers, they go straight to God. The Shekinah glory appears in their room every night.

Who are you talking about?

So I personally like Ray Comforts ministry because it is a simple effectively way to open air preach and stay on the topics that matter. But why is there so much drama when it comes to using the law to do so?

I enjoy his ministry also.

The "drama" isn't because of using the law, at least that's not why I posted anything on this thread. I think street preachers many times get very defensive when someone questions their methods. I speak from experience. We get beat with words constantly from "false converts" and weak Christians. We're hateful. We're unloving. We're ignorant. We're brainwashed. (Praise God! His blood will wash our mind!)We're close-minded. We're too loud. We're so judgmental! Ect, ect.

The "drama" comes when anyone settles into one method and won't budge. I think that is the "warning" that many in this thread are speaking about. Just don't get caught up in a mold.

I do have a little reluctance about "using the law." What do we do with the 4th commandment? Do we still preach that men should keep the sabbath separate from all other days? About 2 weeks ago, I was on the street and a man came up to me. He said, "Hey. Do you remember me? I talked to you awhile back. You may not remember me. I've cut my hair and removed all my earrings and tongue ring." I began to speak with him for a few minutes. Within no time he told me he was now in a Seventh-Day Adventist church and he came out to debate me about sabbath keeping! Did I "use the law" on him when I was witnessing to him? I don't remember.... In all honestly, I probably didn't. But is it possible that men will think we have to keep the Saturday holy from our Gospel presentation?

Rather than express true delight for what the Lord has done through that ministry, they'd rather criticize it

I delight in Ray's ministry. I encourage people that have TBN to watch his program. And previously when Ray's material was available on SI, I loaded a few of his video's up on this site so everybody could watch. My favorite video is of him open air preaching in Central Park.

We aren't blasting the WOTM method. We are just pointing out that it has its limitations and pitfalls, and are attempting to encourage other open-air preachers to grow beyond the WOTM program, and not limit themselves to it.

And I don't say this as somebody who has forgotten from whence they came. I've learned a number of evangelistic methods and programs over the years, and for short seasons, have adopted these methods lock, stock, and barrel. But as I have grown in the Lord, He has shown me other things that have taken me out of my comfort zone, and to be less clingy to the methods.

Hey KingJimmy, I would ask you to reconsider and pray about making your outreach men only.

Thank you for your thoughtful words. I will surely consider them. Indeed, our women must learn to bear their own crosses as well.

I do have a little reluctance about "using the law." What do we do with the 4th commandment? Do we still preach that men should keep the sabbath separate from all other days?

Lately, I preach the 4th commandment. I think the New Testament is pretty clear that the day of Christian observance is Sunday, in honor of our Lord's resurrection. If you explain it biblically, there's no danger of legalism just as there's no danger of legalism if you explain the rest of the commandments biblically. If you don't explain it, the danger you can run into is just what you have experienced.

I'm with the Puritans (Thomas Watson comes to mind) and basically the rest of biblical Christianity up until the 20th century: the 4th commandment has not been repealed and is still in force in spite of what the loosey goosey theologians at seminaries like Dallas Theological Seminary say. Their scriptural arguments always ignore the context of the passages they are quoting from (esp. Galatians 4).

Blessings,

Jon

Do you mean Ray Comfort style?
After they have been justified freely teach them the Law is a tutor for the Christian?

I was reading this today and I thought of this thread. You may find it sheds some light on our methods of evanlgelism...

[b]The Seat of Belief and Unbelief[/b]
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)

There the distinction is made perfectly clear—the heart must never be agnostic, the head, if you like, may be. Every Christian is an avowed agnostic. Have you ever thought of that? How do I know God? All I know of God I have accepted as a revelation, I did not find it out by my head. “Canst thou by searching find out God?” Next time you meet some agnostic friend, say something like that to him and see if it does not alter the problem for him. We have to keep our minds open about a great many things. The reason people disbelieve God is not because they do not understand with their heads—we understand very few things with our heads, but because they have turned their hearts in another direction. Why was Jesus Christ so stern against disbelief? Because disbelief never springs from the head but from the wrong direction of the heart. Can I have the evil heart of unbelief taken out and a heart of belief put in? Thank God, the answer is “Yes!” “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you . . .” (Ezekiel 36:26). Can I have an impure, defiled heart made pure, so pure that it is pure in God’s sight? The answer is “Yes!” “. . . the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). Can I be filled with the Holy Ghost until every nook and cranny is exactly under the control of God? Again the answer is “Yes!” “He that cometh after me is mightier than I, . . . He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor . . .” (Matthew 3:11-12).

Jesus Christ’s salvation works first at the centre, not at the circumference. No one is capable of thinking about being born, or of how they will live when they are born, until they are born; we have to be born into this world first before we can think about it. “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again”—“you must be born into a new world first, and if you want to know My doctrine, do My will” said Jesus. A right relation to God first is essential. How are we to have a right heart relationship to God? By accepting His Spirit, and He will bring us where we can understand how God’s grace works. If any man will receive the Spirit of God, he will find He will lead him into all truth.

Chambers, Oswald. Biblical Psychology : A Treasure Chest for Christian Counselors. London: Simpkin Marshall., 1996.

My son, give me your heart, and let your eyes observe my ways.
(Pro 23:26 ESV)

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
(Joh 7:17 ESV)

In Christ,

Ron

If we say that God's 10 commandments are not important and of no value to the christian life then what are you saying? If we pick one out to debate, are we looking for a loophole?

If we are under the 10 commandments, how can Christians be dead to the law? Are the 10 commandments separate from the law or part of it?

I'll post the below verses in anticipation to how I usually get responded to on this topic.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

sscott wrote:
Nothing in scripture says the Sabbath has been "transfered" to Sunday. There's not one scripture, one direct command...nothing to support this. It's merely tradition.

Wrong. The last I checked the book of John and Acts are Scripture and they clearly state that the disciples met together on the first day of the week. This may not be a direct command, but their example speaks volumes. Church history is replete with evidence that a significant change occurred with His resurrection regarding Sabbath observance.

Galatians does have a lot to say about the legalistic observance of specific days, as if they somehow save a man. Obedience to the Law does not save anyone( Galatians 3).

However, to think that you can throw out the moral law because we're not under the whole thing (ceremonial, civil) is to ignore the passages in the New Testament which reiterate the moral law. Obedience to His moral law is something we do out of love for Him, for a passion for purity and holiness. The ability to do so comes by grace and the empowering of the Holy Spirit.

Otherwise, if the antinomians who think that the Lord of glory shed His precious blood so we could sin our little hearts out and hide behind grace while doing so are right, then I have carte blanche to go out and cheat on my wife tonight and it'll be okay because "we're not under law, but under grace." Whatever that is, it's not Christianity.

Blessings,

Jon

I listenend to many of Ray Comforts messages and I use the law or 10 commandmends mostly when I witness to self-righteous people or to Moslems when they want to enter debates about rigtheousness. It is amazing how the law quickly nullifies their claims because it pronounces anyone guilty. In fact I used it in today's outreach.

Jesus used the law a lot against the Pharisees.
like to the rich young ruler.

To Nikodemus, although he was a Pharisee, he did not use the law but said he said me must be born again. There was no need for confronting self-righteousness, because he already acknowledged Jesus divinity to a degree. He could talk to him about the new life in God. It took him a while but in the end he came to faith.

A lot of the old time preachers used the law because in their days, many people where God fearing churchgoers who were not converted.

That may be more appropriate in countries or areas where there is a lot of church attendance, such as
the bible belt in America.

To Matthew Jesus just said follow me.
To Zaccheus he just said, I must dine with you today.
To the women at the well he said, give me a drink
To the Syro Phoenician women he said, it is not right to cast the bread for the children to the dogs.

These are definitely not words of the law. They were words of divine wisdom which God gives to his bondservants.

We must become a bondservant to gain access to such supernatural wisdom. These are the words that transform lifes.

I suggest to use the law where necessary, but do not forget to speak words of life.

John 6 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life

Philip

The man of God under anointing of the Holy Spirit, the unction of the Holy Spirit would not only be "perfected" for "open air preaching" but given knowledge and wisdom and God's own Words in that man's mouth.

I sincerely and humbly answer your question--fast, pray, know His Word, wait on Him and His Words is my understanding of scripture.

Lawevangelis wrote:
Wrong. The last I checked the book of John and Acts are Scripture...

However, to think that you can throw out the moral law because we're not under the whole thing (ceremonial, civil) is to ignore the passages in the New Testament which reiterate the moral law.

Obedience to His moral law is something we do out of love for Him, for a passion for purity and holiness. The ability to do so comes by grace and the empowering of the Holy Spirit.

Otherwise, if the antinomians who think that the Lord of glory shed His precious blood so we could sin our little hearts out and hide behind grace while doing so are right, then I have carte blanche to go out and cheat on my wife tonight and it'll be okay because "we're not under law, but under grace."

The crux of the matter is, Shabbat being transferred to Sunday, is totally unsupported in both the Old and New Testament. Disciples meeting together on Sunday does not mean that they kept the Shabbat holy. The Pauline statements regarding keeping certain days holy could be referring to the feast days (which were also called Sabbaths), but even then we see Paul observing these days.

Transference of Shabbat to Sunday occurred at the same period that Easter and Christmas were established, and were an anti-Semitic attempt to de-Judaise "Christianity" (which can be seen as an unscriptural label, when used by a Christian to describe themselves). This was one of the earliest introduce errors, by Christendom, probably second only to gnosticism. Like all restorationist movements, the Puritans only took things so far, and you earlier comment about agreeing with them and what was said right up to the 20th century, is similar to the argument used by those who reject utilising the Law in evangelism, as being legalistic. It is the failure of not looking far enough back.

Note, I have never a Jew, nor as SDA, nor am I saying that you [b]must[/b] stop keeping the first day holy. I only post this to highlight what I consider to be a great failure in the WoTM and GNN camps, that being oversimplification of the mysteries of God, in order to make a point.

I don't know if you remember, but we met at John Legg's Sunday night prayer time, back when you came for the EBC in Sydney, and I still associate with WoTM Australia, and love them like brethren. This isn't an attempt to reject Ray or anyone else associated with WoTM. There just another example of a restorationist movement that only went so far.

I'm no moderator, but just a thought so as to avoid wrecking an otherwise good thread... but could debates about Sabbath keeping be put in another thread?

moe_mac wrote:
I wasn't debating the sabbath. I was submitting that worship is much more than one day a week. In fact if Sunday is the only day one worships. He is a pharisee.

I totally agree. My point was to utilise Jon's comments regarding the Sabbath (which I made a point of using the Jewish term "Shabbat") to show how the "right use of the Law", isn't referring to the 10 Commandments, per se, but to the overall testimony of Scripture against man. The point of utilising the Law is to show the sinner who the "sinners" that Paul referred to, when he wrote "the love of God is commended to us, in that while we were yet [b]sinners[/b] Christ died for us". My hope and prayer is that the sinner that I am talking to is one of the "sinners" that Paul referred to, and the bridge is that they can see something of the extent of the sin in their life, and receive His death as being "for him", as a sinner (pant-pant).

Unfortunately, most WoTMers (like Ray, and Kirk), and GNNers (which Jon is) seem to reduce the use of the Law to a formula, and therefore end up reducing the Fourth Commandment to "Don't forget the things of God", or "Go to church on Sunday", when the point is, "Entering the rest of God", with special emphasis being directed to the seventh day.

I have seen sinners stumble over this, because such effort is made to express lying as "false witness", thereby destroying the notion of "white lying", but when the Fourth Commandment comes, they apply a literal interpretory (is that a word) back-flip, thereby explaining away God's Law, in the like manner to the sinner, with the issue of lying.
While I can see why Jimmy's alarm bells had gone off, I hope I have been able to reduce the "terror threat" from "red" back to "yellow". The overall theme that I am getting from this thread, is the issue of unction and consistency. [b]Evangelists[/b] bringing the [b]Gospel[/b] to [b]sinners[/b], by the [b]power of the Spirit[/b]. Take one of these components away, and something is terribly amiss.

The overall theme that I am getting from this thread, is the issue of unction and consistency. Evangelists bringing the Gospel to sinners, by the power of the Spirit. Take one of these components away, and something is terribly amiss.

Amen.

jimdied2sin wrote:
Just to recap what I learned on this thread. We should not evangelize using the good person test in the inner city on the sabbath day...

ROTFLOL... You're alright!!! I needed a good chuckle today. Thanks bro.

:-)

jimdied2sin wrote:

Just to recap what I learned on this thread. We should not evangelize using the good person test in the inner city on the sabbath day...

:-P