Orthodox Statement of Faith?

As I have said before, when you cannot refute, you belittle, and stoop to name calling. Are you not slipping out of your perfection Jesse? Are you sure you are headed to Heaven now, as you say any sin can negate all of what Christ has purchased, and will send that person to Hell. Meanwhile every child of God has within them such a brood of vipers that if not for the righteousness of Christ alone before the Father none should have peace to appear before Him.

Brother how is this in love, and for the edification of this family?

I have answered your accusations at every turn, and the best you can do is mock not only myself, but many who have gone before us, and many whom are dear friends.

I object on the basis of your humanistic and emotion driven statements that completely disregard context for the majority of Scriptures you have put up, and unless I am convinced by Scripture alone, here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God.(Yeah it's borrowed, but fitting as the battle you and I have been waging is none different than what Luther and Erasmus fought some 500 years ago). But should you continue to bring out that old corspe of man's goodness, and ability, by the grace of God I hope to put it back in the tomb where it belongs, and so long as you should threaten the crux of Christianity which is justification by faith alone through Christ alone, I will fight back, and I do hope others will as well as you are trying to undermine the faith of many, and destroy Christ's work for His Church.

We believe that God so hates the majority of the world that He did not give His Son for the whole world. (John 3:16)

I have never said that God does not love the world, but that love is manifest in differing ways. Mercy is what all men have in that they are able to breathe, and live, and have crops etc. But this love does not bring anyone to Christ as the natural man will eat all this up, and then create his own idol to worship rather than worship his Creator.

Note also what this is saying, and to whom. This verse was spoken to a Jewish religious leader who was of the thought that the Messiah would save only the Jews and leave the Gentiles to perish as was common thought then. Yet Christ says, "no Nicodemas, God so loved all nations and types of people that He sent His Son."

Then comes the main part, "that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish..." Notice it does not say "whosoever will be saved", but "whosoever believeth", and because we know that the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, and that no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, believing is not something man can do on his own.

We believe that Jesus died only for us special few, and not for the sins of the whole world. (1John 4:9)

Here is the verse you use-
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Now nowhere does it say anything about Christ dying for sins of the whole world, and also, who is the "us" and the "we" referring to? If it is unsaved, then you have universal redemption, if it is to Christians, you have encouragement to them, in and through Christ and his work.

We believe that God is willing that the majority should perish, and that they should remain impentient in their sin. (2Pet 3:9)

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, who is this adressed to?
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
And to further show the audience,
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, [b]to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:[/b]

Who did Peter write the First EPistle to?
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, [b]to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:[/b] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Unless I am mistaken Peter is adressing Christians. Therefore, we must look at what he is saying to them.

So looking at this verse in the context of the Epistle-
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who is God long suffering towards? "us"
Who is the "us"? Christians
Any of who? in context, it would be Christians, as Peter is explaining to the believers why Christ has not returned yet, it is to finish bringing in His people.

We believe that those that the Lord has "bought" with His blood are eternally and unconditionally secure, and cannot "bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2Pet 2:1)

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Where does it say anything about being bought by blood? It is true that it says these were purchased, but by whom?

Unfortunately, I have to use Greek here. The term for Lord is not kurios which is found in salvation or redemption passages, but rather despotes from which we get the term despot. This term is along the lines of a sovereign master. Now did not Christ purchase all the World, and is He not Ruler over all mankind saved and unsaved? Did He not purchase the field, to gain the treasure?

So yes Christ owns these men, as their Creator, and one whom they will answer to, bt there is no mention of them being redeemed. Even the Greek word for bought, which is agorazo, when it is used in salvation passages always has the element by which this happened. Take for instance-
1Co 6:20 For [b]ye are bought with a price:[/b] therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's

There only two passages where this word is used to point to a purchase of salvation, and your passage is not one of them.

We believe that a "worst thing" will not come, and cannot come, upon the elect even if they fail to "sin no more"(John 5:14) because we are tempted beyond what we are able (1Cor 10:13) and God's commandments are impossible (1John 5:3), therefore Christians sin "every day in word, thought, and deed" but are not "of the devil" (1John 3:8) even though they daily continue in sin.

Your first verse-
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

How this applies I do not know, as this was prior to the work of the Cross, and the payment for sin, and seems out of place in this discussion.

Next one-
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

This is pointing to God's gracious work in our trials brother, and should be used to encourage not to beat upon. The word for temptation does not have any link to sinful activities, but rather trials, adn Paul is saying that God is faithful in the trials He allows to also present a way out of them.

Next-
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Yes, but this again is written to Christians who have the Spirit to help keep them, and also these are already justified, having the ordinances against them blotted out and nailed to His cross(Col 2:13,14)

And if a Christian never sins again, what of this-
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Of course the sin unto death would be the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would it not?

Your last one-
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Yes he that commits sin is imitating the devil, this does not say he belongs to him. but Christ destroyed or loosed(LIT) the bonds of those works. The point here is that no one who says he is a Christian will go on in an unrepentant attitude towards sin, he cannot because there is a new nature in him that causes him to grieve and repent.

As far as i have explained these verse properly, I say AMEN.

One last point, the message you are preaching does not need Christ to have died, and would be welcomed by many who seek to justify themselves according tou their own good works. but you have blurred justification adn sanctification, adnmade them one and the same, when they are different.

True justification cannot but lead to sanctification, but God does not re-open the books and retry you for the sin you have already been redeemed from. We do not operate as criminals once we are justified, but as sons, and thus we have access throgh Christ and His work and His merit, and this will produce sanctification in the life of the child of God.

But I do praise God that great men, who were sound and clear headed, like John Wesley, John Fletcher, Charles Finney, George Fox, and other great men took such strong stances against such horrific beliefs.

Ahh yes wondrous men. Only two on that list held to anything remotley Biblical so far as salvation is concerned, and they would not be Fox and Finney.

Fox believed that all men had an "inner light", and thus did not need even Bibles to tell them how to live, ads they could simply trust the light within. Only problem, is that the light within natural man is the light of deception.

Finney lied to get ordained. He said that he agreed with all the Wesminster Confession, but once he was ordained, he began to tear apart and ridicule those who helped him.

Sadly, much of what these men preached did not need Christ to die for sin and raise for justification as man could do it on his own, or at least with a little help.

At least Wesley, and Fletcher somewhat believed in justification by faith alone. Sadly though the Church of England was never really out of their veins or out of Rome, and much of their theology reflects that.

Sort of fail to understand the motive/point behind this thread... why was it created exactly, to cause further argumentation concerning Calvinism vs. Arminism?

Must we?... These are unedifying debates, I don't think I've ever witnessed a fruitful debate concerning these doctrinal disputations. Both sides of the camps are in mud up to their knees (unable to move), and when they get in arguments there's mud flying everywhere.

worm4christ,

Your posts here in my view were not edifying to the Body. There are places for loving correction, but what you did was not in my view. Learn to love the brethren, even when they may be wrong and in error. Correct them where you feel lead to but do not insult my fellow brethren as you did here... GrannieAnnie, Jesse, and Corey. Their unique in their own ways and with faults but all live to serve Christ.

I find many disagreeing points with Jesse and am disgruntled with some facets of his ministry. But at the end of the day I still consider him a brother in the Lord. He's young and needs all the prayer he can get, scolding him and comparing him to Evan Roberts and displaying a picture of him that makes him look bad is not good for the Body.

Joh 1:9 - "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world"

But what does man do with this light?
Joh 1:5 And [b]the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.[/b]

Joh 3:19 And [b]this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/b]

Notice what Paul says about "darkness" here-
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and [b]to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan[/b] unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Natural man will not come to God because of general revelation, or the conscience. Neither of these are means to salvation, because if they are, then the Gospel of Christ's death and ressurection is vain.

The Holy Spirit must convict men of sin, righteousness, and judgement to come. No man can do this, no matter how hard he tries, as the natural man receives or comprehends not the things of God for they are spiritually understood.

Notice too after your verse(John 1:9) comes this-
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

Faith is a result of the new birth, not the cause of it, and this new birth is given by God alone.

Consider this verse-
James 1:18 [b]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,[/b] that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Or this one-
1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [b]which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again[/b] unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Of course men know there is a Creator, but they supress this knowledge and hate this fact, they build for themselves idols and worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator. They will not come because they cannot come, and as a blind man who senses the sun but never sees it, they wander blind, and lost until the Spirit opens their eyes.

Fox's error is that man can of his own "free" unchanged heart know God. Thus even today many Quaker meetings have little to no Scripture, but much sitting around open to the spirit. They accept all because all have "light" suposedly.

Now my comment about Wesley and Fletcher was not to infer that they were Roman Catholic, but to show how they too made the fatal mistake that Rome makes in blurring justification and sanctification, and saying that a must be sanctified to be justified. Paul referred to this(adding any work to be justified, aside from faith alone) as another Gospel.

Just wanted to make clear what I was saying, before some decided what I wasn't saying. :-)

James 1:26 ¶ If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Vain=3152 ma,taioj mataios {mat'-ah-yos}
Meaning: 1) devoid of force, truth, success, result 2) [b]useless, of no purpose[/b]

NIV says:

James 1:26 ¶ If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and [b]his religion is worthless.[/b]

This is verse we need take to heart.

The mouth of the righteous is a well of life,
But the mouth of the wicked pours forth evil.

[i]For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.[/i]
(Gal 5:13-15)

Nothing is so destructive to the peace of man, and to the peace of the soul, as religious disputes; where they prevail, religion in general has little place.

-Adam Clarke

If Christ were speaking internally all the time, we wouldn't come out with the rubbish that we utter so much.

Leonard Ravenhill

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15142&forum=34&3]taming he tongue[/url]

Fear is the opposite of faith.

I don't really know what all is going on in this thread, but the below verses came to mind when I seen this statement.

Heb 11:7 [b]By faith[/b] Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, [b]moved with fear[/b], prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Hi Corey: :)

"If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul." (EZE 33:3-5)

Be careful brother. Receive the concern that is expressed and explained in this post.

That verse (All of Ezekiel Chapter 33 and Chapter 18)has proper use and authority only in the context of a warning that accompanies a proclamation and explanation of the gospel, the substance of which Paul outlines for us in ICor.15:1-3.

The "warning" is the exhortation that follows and complements the preaching and teaching of the gospel, not our concerns of international or cultural conflict and strife.

As an example of how the Holy Spirit demonstrated the proper use and application of the Ezekiel "warning" passages.

Note the Apostle Paul's inference to this "warning" of Ezekiel's watchmen as applying to the ongoing proclamation of the gospel and the teaching of disciples in a given community.

In Acts 20 he is addressing the elders of Ephesus and reminds then of his example of his ministry amongst the people of that city and the believers who were called into the church of our Lord Jesus Christ that was formed as the Holy Spirt worked mightily through such correctly motivated and correctly defined gospel.

Acts 20: (ESV)
24 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.

His priority and primary activity was proclaimng the gospel and highlighting the emphasis that it is a gospel of grace.

Let's continue with the verses that continue this discourse:

26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

Note vs.26: Paul is making the reference to the warning passages of Ezekiel.

The verse you quote retains heavenly authority only in it's Holy Spirit authoritative and inspired context of proclaiming the gospel.

A complementary but necessary component that accompanies the proclamation of the gospel of Christ.

Yes, it is a warning that urges men to flee from the wrath to come, only in the context of the God ordained priority and preeminence of proclaiming Christ: His person: His finished work:, His resurrection from the dead and His willingness to receive, redeem and transform sinners. Who He is: What He did: Why He did it: What He requires from men who hear and understand it: Why He lives today Resurrected and Ascended. Why He will return in glory: What He promises to do for those who submit to His authority.

Yes, Christ is also returning to culminate His work of redemption and carry out a "vengeance" that is His alone and is carried out in a manner and timing that is also His alone.

A vengenace on behalf of the Father and on behalf of His children who have suffered as a result of living and abiding in Him as they proclaim that gospel. It is not a vengeance against His saints. Whatever wrong His saints have committed is addressed through His discipline in the context of fellowship with Him and in His ongoing and final perfecting of their lives.

Sometimes the warning is more of an awakening of men's minds and consciences.

The "warning" or "awakening" is also a volitional and intellectual recognitition that God sovereignly harnesses and uses the concerted efforts of nations and their governments to awaken men to the futility of life lived apart from their Creator.

Consider Paul's reference to this reality in his proclamation of the gospel in Athens recorded for us by the Holy Spirit in Acts 17:

"26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. "

Any warning of fleeing "from the wrath" that is divorced from the proclamation of the gospel , though well meaning is wrong when we recognize that we are "servants of Christ" and "steward's" of the mysteries of God. ICor. 4:1

The grace of God provides for such ministers of the gospel to cease from such practice and pursue a knowledge of the "doctrine" that promotes godliness from the motivation of love.

A kind of re-tooling of our doctrinal understanding: A temporary taking off line of our assembly line way of thinking before the production process of proclamation can return to full speed again.

ITimothy 1: Paul the Apostle once again clearly handing off the baton of doctrinal truth and ministerial practice that was to be a non neglected but full engaged priority of Timothy's authoritative ministry in Ephesus.

3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship [1] from God that is by faith. 5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Another element of warning that Paul consistently carried out is one of watching for, warning of, and confronting false teachers (wolves) that sought to enter the sheepfold.

Any work of God where a church is birthed, and is beginning to be established will be opposed by Satan not only through direct persecution but through subtle, clever infiltration. Satan's strategy is to manipulate not only wrongly motivated (unbelievers), but also misdirected and misinformed disciples.

Back to Acts 20: Paul refers to this defense of the gospel that paralleled hisproclamation and teaching of the gospel.

"28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, [3] which he obtained with his own blood. [4] 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. 32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified."

Again such warnings were bound up in the context of the priority of the gospel of grace and the premeinence of the word of grace.

Let's learn to define and put on the belt of truth together in standing in the Lord (first) and against the enemy (second).

God Bless You! :)

Your Brother.

Doug

Well, what Jesse is trying to do, as it appears to me, is show us what he believes is the logical conclusion, or implied belief in the statements of Calvinists and those who believe once saved always saved. Of course that's not to say that there actually aren't people who not only imply a belief in this based on their theology, but actually blatantly say they believe it. John Piper says he sins and must sin every day in thought word and deed. That's horrible. That's a false teaching. Christ died to save people from habitual sin. I don't have any names of theologians who believe that Christ didn't die for everyone, but yes! they do exist, we've read it. And that's bad because He did die for everyone; look at all the scriptures he mentioned and others.
Some of you do not believe that that is the logical conclusion or implied belief of your doctrine. Therefore you were offended that he would say such things, knowing that they are directed at you. I gotta admit that that is actually pretty understandable, but it does seem to me that what he is doing is biblical. If you see a destructive element in what someone purports as true, it is natural to warn them, hoping that they will take heed. When they do not listen your plea, it would become more passionate, but not necessarily "emotional" as he and others were accused. Many of you did that very thing in response to his post, and some of you with bitterness and anger unfortunately.
So, I hope we all are drawing from the reservoirs of Christ's grace in order to grow in His likeness and manifest His love. God bless you all.

Ok Brother, take a deep breath and sing "Amazing Grace" whilst though read this. :)

CH
"And if you don't warn the kid and he falls and is paralyzed..."

DES response: I warn him in love as a work of love and care that accompanies the gospel but I truly warn as I use that platform to proclaim Christ.

CH:And you don't warn the police and someone is killed during the bank robbery...

DES response: I warn the police and let them know that I honor them as such and thank them for their public service because God has ordained them as ministers for good according to Rom. 13:4 and from that platform proclaim Christ to them and fulfill the exhortation implied in Ezekiel.

CH:"And you don't warn your fellow citizens and the nation falls into despotism..."

DES response : All nations (yes even Canada ) have fallen into despotism to varying degrees because of the fallen nature of every human being, It is revealed in open depravity of lifestyle and in God ignoring morally haughty self righteousness equally.

Again every nation according to the promise of the gospel will ultimately be restored from despotism to righteousness.

Isaiah 53:15 prophetically in the context of proclaiming Christ's work of atonement and the blessing that would come to those who embrace the gospel that explains Christ as that atonement.

"So shall He sprinkle many nations."
In other words nations shall ultimately be inhabited by those who have been sprinkled by the blood of Christ (sanctifed, set apart, made holy and righteous by faith and perfected in that righteousness by His Holy Spirit)

IPeter2:9-10 says concerning our identity and calling corporately in Christ; " we are a a chosen generation a royal priesthood, a holy nation.

Proclaiming the praises of Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Emphasis on the gospel :

As a holy nation, Jesus says we are salt and light. A preserving influence and a proclaiming people. As a holy nation we will one day inhabit all the nations under the rule of Christ having been perfected by Him.

Only then will all the nations be sprinkled and set apart for Him and set free from despotism because the all powerful, benevolent King will be present and in place ruling.

We can adress political issues and social concerns with a light touch as a platform for the gospel. Come now, our love for others is only present and can only be perfected because of the love of Christ. Would we deny the members of a nation the real deal while posturing ourselves to only provide possible temporal solutions.

If you truly love your nation and it's people, then proclaim Christ and let every other issue be subservient to that. If it cannot be used as a platofrm for the gospel or to build a relationship in the gospel, set it aside.

I choose to remember that Jesus' description of any nation or people group or clique or gathering is compassionately described by Him in this manner; "sheep without a shepherd." Like Christ respond and proclaim His Kingdom, His gospel, He is the Good Shepherd."

Jesus called you and I to view humanity and again any nation from the vantage point of Himself: In John 4:35 "Behold I say unto you,lift up your eyes,and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest. And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.

That sowing and reaping is in the context of the gospel of Christand those transformed by it.

CH:"You don't think God will judge you for your impotent silence?"

DES response: I will give an account for whether or not I was faithful to proclaim the gospel, be willing to suffer for it and endure hardships as a result, and lay down my life for those who are transformed by it.

I will answer as to what degree I chose to order this life by abiding in Christ and His love.

I will be evaluated by Christ as to what degree I let my life become His workmanship and let my life become a vessel that fulfilled the good works He has prepared beforehand.

He will be unwavering, yet gracious and merciful in that day.

DES Conclusion: The real enemy is sin and the devil. Remember that.

The only and final authority is Christ. Respond to it and discard any distortions along the way.

Matt.28:18-20 "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you and lo I am with you always even unto the end of the age.

Mark 16:15 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel."

Luke 24:46-47" and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jersusalem."

If we fail to fulfill our part in submission to this authority, then we fail.

Accomodate the authority of the one who is present with you. You have the mind of Christ. Grow in it brother.

Cheers,

Love you brother :)

Doug

Complete and total repentance is absolutely necessary before God will forgive sin.

No Jesse, fatih is the means by which a man is justified, and repentance is a fruit of that faith, not the cause of it.

On the day of Pentecost when Peter addressed the crowd, and they cried out, "what must we do?" Did he tell them, "confess every sin you have ever committed to be saved"? or did he say, "repent, and be baptized"?

And what sin were they convicted of? Denial of God's Christ was it not?

God never forgives unrepented sins.

So then how do you ever have time to preach? I mean if you would be honest, you would admit that there are very few moments that you are not sinning in one way or another. Do you in every moment of every day love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul , and strength? Do you every minute of every day love your neighbour as yourself?(Judging from the things you have said in this post, I'd say no).

So now tell me you who desire to boast in your keeping of the Law, and in your righteousness, what good is Christ to you? If you are so great, and holy in and of yourself, why do you need Christ?

I have shown that statement of faith to professing Calvinists who have openly told me that they say "amen" to it. Amen?? Amen?? WHAT!?! God hates the majority of the world?!? God wants the majority of the world to live in sin and die in sin?!?!? WHAT?!?!? Christians are eternally secure no matter how much they sin, even if they sin every day??? LIAR!!! You have got to be kidding me!

Words cannot express how terribly grieved I am at such FALSE theology, which in my estimation, to say the lest, is from the very pits of hell!!

You have yet to show anything, as you have deceitfully cut and pasted the parts of what I have said to suit your purposes without answering any points.

I do not think I have ever said anything of the sort, and your name calling is very low, am I now become like those you belittle and mock in an attempt to tell them of Christ? Am I not your brother, and you say I am a LIAR?

But now your true colours are showing, sinless perfection huh? If you were utterly sinless as you claim, there would be no anger in your tone, there would be love, and grace even towards those you disagree with. But I have touched upon your golden calf, "free wiil and self salvation" and look at what rises to the top.

Again, you have not proven anything false but your state of sinlessness.

I couldn't believe it when I heard Piper say that he continues to sin every single day,

Not all of us can ascend to your level Jesse, or should I call you jesus(one who saves)? as you purport to be without sin, and able to save yourself by your good deeds? There is One and only One who is without sin, and because God has imputed this to me by His grace and through faith, I can stand before the Father as holy, and blameless.

There are LOTS of unfortinate and decieved believers today who believe in this TULIP nonsense theology, with their antiscriptural view of "limited atonement". They take away and lessen the most beautiful doctrine of the bible!!

But don't you limit the atonement as well? You say that not all men will be saved do you not? Well how dare you limit the atonement!!!

In your theology, there is no atonement, because the wrath according to you has not been satisfied unless you perfectly obey, thus making the Cross of no effect at all. There is no propitiation in your theology either from what I can tell, because man cannot have any peace with God unless he perfectly obeys the Law, thus making peace with God depend upon man's obedience. But what does the Bible say?
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:25 (Christ)Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore [b]being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]

Rom 5:9 Much more then, [b]being now justified by his blood,[/b] we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Jesus died for some of you
God loves a few of you
God wants a few of you to repent and be saved

And they would not be inconsistent with their views if they preached like this:
God hates most of you
Jesus doesn't care about most of you
God wants most of you to live in sin and die in sin, and go to hell for our unavoidable sins.

Now can you show me where I ever said God did not love people? He does, but that does not mean that He will save everyone. Even in your view, not everyone will be saved, so why doesn't God override the free will of man and save him, if God loves everyone, and wants everyone to be saved?

Isn't the Lord limting the salvation message here-
Joh 10:26 But [b]ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,[/b] as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 [b]My sheep hear my voice,[/b] and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And [b]I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/b]

Joh 6:39 And [b]this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,[/b] but should raise it up again at the last day.
So is this all people? or is it limited?

Even your verses from Ezekiel are taken out of context, for who is God talking to in this passage-
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

It's not the world, or the Philistines, or the Hittites, or the Perizites, or any other nations, but Israel-
Eze 18:30 [b]Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel,[/b] every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

God does have a special love for those whom He has foreknown, this cannot be denied. Those whom He has foreknown will be justified, and glorified-
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Yes, the TRUTH is far too BEAUTIFUL and WONDERFUL and GLORIOUS and HOPEFUL to let such TERRIBLE and AWEFUL and HORRIFIC views spread like a plague throughout the Church.

There is nothing beautiful about the gospel you preach Jesse, ther is no hope whatsoever. Man knows he cannot make himelf right with God, but all you do is tell him he can, and then condemn him because he's not, again, tell me why you need Christ in your version of the gospel. For all I hear is man' ability, man's ability. But if man were so able why does Christ need to bear man's sin? Why wasn't there any other way?

The glory of the Gospel is Christ dying for sinners according to the Scriptures, meaning He who knew no sin was made sin that those brought to faith would be made the righteousness of God in Him(Christ).

I see no mention of man's works in this equation, as man cannot save himself, and cannot make himself righteous enough to appear before God.

What greater truth could there be than, "we love Him, because He first loved us", or this-
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, [b]having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[/b]

He did, not we did.

Not too long ago I had a big 'Ariminean - Calvinist' debate with one of my closest friends - it got quite heated with phrases such as "I thought you were a fundamentalist" and "you preach less than Christ" being used.

I came back to these forums and was brought almost to tears of joy at some posts with 'Calvinists' and 'Armineans' talking very reasonably (without compromising their views) about the state of the Church etc - I read the first 4-5 posts of this thread, and I am close to tears of dispare! How any one can try and claim the 'moral' high ground from the first few posters is beyond me - what a blemish this post is on these forums!

I know I haven't posted on here as long as some, but frankly I don't care. As it happens, I fall down on the 'Arminean' side of the fence, but not in the same way as this post. It's clear to me from Scripture that neither TULIP nor the full 'Arminean' view are 'right' but both require at some stage or another a weak explaining away of some Scriptures somewhere.

Now whilst I agree the type of OSAS teaching that is in the majority of churches today is dangerous, because it leads to widespread 'easy-beliveism' - but this is not the view of great Calvinist preachers like Whitfield etc.

Does anyone remember that Whitfield and Wesley had this argument out a couple of hundred years ago? It seems so pointless to me for it to continue, because both sides (even in the very first few posts in this thread!) just take one view of the other and twist it to an extreme - pointless.

I remind you of what Wesley entered in his journal about Whitfield:

"I met with George Whitfield today, he breathes nothing but peace and love."

Please, sort it out.

"I met with George Whitfield today, he breathes nothing but peace and love."

And Whitefield said Wesley was aconfused Calvinist ;-)

True faith includes repentance, and true repentance includes faith. Repentance is an act of faith, and faith without repentance is not saving faith. The one with faith, will repent. And God forgives only when the two conditions are meet, repenting and believing.

Yes, the regenerated heart wants to repent as it sees it has sinned against God, but that faith not only produces repentace, but also justification, and that justifiation produces sanctification.

And that justification is a one time declaration of freedom from guilt for all sin.

I think you and I are closer in some ways than we think :-D

All I am saying is that a drunkard needs to repent (turn from drunkeness) to be forgiven.
A fornicator needs to repent (turn from fornication) to be forgiven.
A murderer needs to repent (turn from hatred) to be forgiven.

And I agree, but a man will not until he is convicted that it is sin, and that can only come from the Holy Spirit.

Have a wonderful Lord's day, I must sleep now, the brain doesn't work well when tired, and my eyes are eady to explode out of my head even with my glasses on :-D

And you the same.

This is first: Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Then this is salvation: Acts 16:27-33 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Repentance was for the Jew. Believe was for the Gentile Roman Guard. The Jew had to repent because they did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and killed Him. All the Roman Guard had to do was believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

True faith and repentance come from who, when?

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Man can seek repentance but unless it is granted it can not be received. Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. When does repentance come? Who does repentance come from?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

2Cr 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

All man's repentance is dead works unless the Godly sorrow precedes repentance it means nothing. Christ in you is the only Hope of Glory we have and the Holy Spirit by His direction leads to repentance and Godliness through our birthing and salvation, not preceding it.

In Christ: Phillip

roaringlamb wrote:

"I met with George Whitfield today, he breathes nothing but peace and love."

And Whitefield said Wesley was aconfused Calvinist ;-)

Ha, perhaps - wasn't really my point - but there we are :). It seems things calmed down a little anyway, I found the following in an old e-mail, since we were talking about Wesley and Whitfield - seeing as I read some recent posts saying "maybe we're not as different as you think" - I thought it might add to this discussion/thread quite nicely:

[b]The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace[/b]
by John Wesley

1. To say, "This man is an Arminian," has the same effect on many hearers, as to say, "This is a mad dog." It puts them into a fright at once: They run away from him with all speed and diligence; and will hardly stop, unless it be to throw a stone at the dreadful and mischievous animal.

2. The more unintelligible the word is, the better it answers the purpose. Those on whom it is fixed know not what to do: Not understanding what it means, they cannot tell what defence to make, or how to clear themselves from the charge. And it is not easy to remove the prejudice which others have imbibed, who know no more of it, than that it is "something very bad," if not "all that is bad!"

3. To clear the meaning, therefore, of this ambiguous term, may be of use to many: To those who so freely pin this name upon others, that they may not say what they do not understand; to those that hear them, that they may be no longer abused by men saying they know not what; and to those upon whom the name is fixed, that they may know how to answer for themselves.

4. It may be necessary to observe, First, that many confound Arminians with Arians. But this is entirely a different thing; the one has no resemblance to the other. An Arian is one who denies the Godhead of Christ; we scarce need say, the supreme, eternal Godhead; because there can be no God but the supreme, eternal God, unless we will make two Gods, a great God and a little one. Now, none have ever more firmly believed, or more strongly asserted, the Godhead of Christ, than many of the (so called) Arminians have done; yea, and do at this day. Arminianism therefore (whatever it be) is totally different from Arianism.

5. The rise of the word was this: JAMES HARMENS, in Latin, Jacobes Arminius, was first one of the Ministers of Amsterdam, and afterwards Professor of Divinity at Leyden. He was educated at Geneva; but in the year 1591 began to doubt of the principles which he had till then received. And being more and more convinced that they were wrong, when he was vested with the Professorship, he publicly taught what he believed the truth, till, in the year 1609, he died in peace. But a few years after his death, some zealous men with the Prince of Orange at their head, furiously assaulted all that held what were called his opinions; and having procured them to be solemnly condemned, in the famous Synod of Dort, (not so numerous or learned, but full as impartial, as the Council or Synod of Trent,) some were put to death, some banished, some imprisoned for life, all turned out of their employments, and made incapable of holding any office, either in Church or State.

6. The errors charged upon these (usually termed Arminians) by their opponents, are five: (1.) That they deny original sin; (2.) That they deny justification by faith; (3.) That they deny absolute predestination; (4.) That they deny the grace of God to be irresistible; and, (5.) That they affirm, a believer may fall from grace.

With regard to the two first of these charges, they plead, Not Guilty. They are entirely false. No man that ever lived, not John Calvin himself, ever asserted either original sin, or justification by faith, in more strong, more clear and express terms, than Arminius has done. These two points, therefore, are to be set out of the question: In these both parties agree. In this respect, there is not a hair's breadth difference between Mr. Wesley and Mr. Whitefield.

7. But there is an undeniable difference between the Calvinists and Arminians, with regard to the three other questions. Here they divide; the former believe absolute, the latter only conditional, predestination. The Calvinists hold, (1.) God has absolutely decreed, from all eternity, to save such and such persons, and no others; and that Christ died for these, and none else. The Arminians hold, God has decreed, from all eternity, touching all that have the written word, "He that believeth shall be saved: He that believeth not, shall be condemned:" And in order to this, "Christ died for all, all that were dead in trespasses and sins;" that is, for every child of Adam, since "in Adam all died."

8. The Calvinists hold, Secondly, that the saving grace of God is absolutely irresistible; that no man is any more able to resist it, than to resist the stroke of lightning. The Arminians hold, that although there may be some moments wherein the grace of God acts irresistibly, yet, in general, any man may resist, and that to his eternal ruin, the grace whereby it was the will of God he should have been eternally saved.

9. The Calvinists hold, Thirdly, that a true believer in Christ cannot possibly fall from grace. The Arminians hold, that a true believer may "make shipwreck of faith and a good conscience;" that he may fall, not only foully, but finally, so as to perish for ever.

10. Indeed, the two latter points, irresistible grace and infallible perseverance, are the natural consequence of the former, of the unconditional decree. For if God has eternally and absolutely decreed to save such and such persons, it follows, both that they cannot resist his saving grace, (else they might miss of salvation,) and that they cannot finally fall from that grace which they cannot resist. So that, in effect, the three questions come into one, "Is predestination absolute or conditional?" The Arminians believe, it is conditional; the Calvinists, that it is absolute.

11. Away, then, with all ambiguity! Away with all expressions which only puzzle the cause! Let honest men speak out, and not play with hard words which they do not understand. And how can any man know what Arminius held, who has never read one page of his writings? Let no man bawl against Arminians, till he knows what the term means; and then he will know that Arminians and Calvinists are just upon a level. And Arminians have as much right to be angry at Calvinists, as Calvinists have to be angry at Arminians. John Calvin was a pious, learned, sensible man; and so was James Harmens. Many Calvinists are pious, learned, sensible men; and so are many Arminians. Only the former hold absolute predestination; the latter, conditional.

12. One word more: Is it not the duty of every Arminian Preacher, First, never, in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach; seeing it is neither better nor worse than calling names? -- a practice no more consistent with good sense or good manners, than it is with Christianity. Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly of it? And is it not equally the duty of every Calvinist Preacher, First, never in public or in private, in preaching or in conversation, to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach? Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly thereof; and that the more earnestly and diligently, if they have been accustomed so to do? perhaps encouraged therein by his own example!

[i]From the Thomas Jackson edition of The Works of John Wesley, 1872.[/i]

The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace

Fairly good, but I would reccomend that people actually read the Synod of Dort findings, and also "A Display of Arminianism" by John Owen before jumping to any conclucsions about what was deicided, or what wasn't decided at the Council of Dort.

Just a note here, us Calvis (if I must be named), don't have tails and horns :-D

ust a note here, us Calvis (if I must be named), don't have tails and horns

I think that's Wesley's point also - and an important one.

More than this though, I don't what was decided when by who, but my views were never based on Armineus or Armaximus or anyone other than what I could deduce from Scripture - but then I think the labels sometimes help for 'reference'.

And, wasn't it Keith Daniel who said:

"Calvinist or Arminean I don't know - I find both in Scripture" - there's an interesting one. I may elaborate on that later :)