I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

Heresy?!?! or scripture:

[b]James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.[/b]

[b]1. What is Justification[/b]
To be justified is to be freed from the guilt and penalty of past sins. There are various ways to be justified (for example, if a man breaks the speed limit while rushing to the emergency room, the man is justified in doing so because getting to the emergency room is more important than obeying the speed limit; no just judge will make a man pay a fine in this circumstance), but for the sake of this discussion, we shall only consider justification by pardon, that is, when God forgives a man and declares his past sins absolved without the man actually paying the penalty of the law and without the man being declared right in breaking the law. In such a case, the man is blameless before the law, for the Judge, being the perfect preserver of justice and law, has declared him so.

[b]2. What is Justification by Works Alone[/b]
To be justified by works is to be pardoned of sins on account of subsequent or previous obedience to the law (works). If a man obeys the law for years without blame but happens to stumble in one point, and then proceeds to argue that he should be acquitted because he has kept the law for years up to this point - that is an appeal to justification by works. It would be akin to Adam, after the fall and after God's judgment, saying, "But God, this was the first time I broke the law - I am otherwise blameless! Surely you will take that into account and pardon my sin." Likewise, a sinner at the judgment seat might argue, "I admit to lying and cussing and drinking. But I've done many good things in my life, I've obeyed the other points of the law. Surely You will take these things into account and pardon my small sins." This is justification by works alone, which will secure a pardon for no man, for, among other things, it subverts justice, sets aside the law, and mars the reputation of the Judge.

[b]3. What is Justification by Faith Alone[/b]
To be justified by faith alone is to be pardoned of sins simply because one has believed God will pardon him. (It may also be said "simply because one has believed in Jesus Christ".) Perhaps the sinner has faith that God is merciful, loving, and forgiving - things that are indeed true! The sinner might also believe that God is just and upholds the law. In fact, if it is possible, the sinner might comprehend the divine godhead more than even the apostle Paul or Peter, but this comprehension, this faith in who God is, will not save the sinner if he appeals to it and it alone. It is like a man, appearing on his day of court after he has lied, stolen, murdered, and raped, and saying to the judge with no apparent conviction, sorrow, or intent to change, "Judge, I freely admit to the crimes I am charged with. However, I know without doubt that you are a loving and merciful judge! I even know that you are a just judge who upholds the law - what a righteous judge you are, sir! Indeed, you are so righteous and just, that I have faith that you will pardon me and not hold my transgressions against me!" What an abomination!!! What an insult to the judge! What a joke! How preposterous is it to think of a judge pardoning such a man! Jesus has told us how He will respond to such men, "I never knew you! Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity!" And yet, this seems to be the prevailing view in contemporary Christianity. Faith, faith, and nothing but faith. Nothing but faith sends you nowhere but hell.

[b]4. What is Justification by Faith and Works[/b]
To be justified by faith and works is to be pardoned of sins by having faith that God will pardon those who obey Him and then proceeding to obey Him. So faith and works (practical obedience) work together to obtain pardon from God. God is able to pardon those who have faith in Him and obey Him because of the death of Jesus Christ. (See "The Atonement" by Albert Barnes for a thorough examining of this.) So, a man seeking to be justified by faith and works, will argue this at the judgment: "God, I admit to having once been a rebellious and wicked sinner. However, I repented of my sins and obeyed You the remainder of my life. Oh God, You Yourself have declared, "When the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it." (Ezekiel 33:19) Oh Lord, the Faithful and True, I know You will keep Your word and pardon Your servant who was once wicked but has turned to You. Furthermore, I know You are fully justified in pardoning my sins because of the death of Your Son, Jesus Christ, in whom I believe to Your good pleasure. Let the God of the world judge rightly." Amen!!! By words like these, whether verbally spoken or understood in the heart, will the saints enter heaven! The saints of God will be justified not only by their faith, but also by their works. By their obedience they will be justified, for God has declared He will justify those who obey Him.

Glory be to God who judges rightly over all people!
Praise be to God who sent Jesus Christ that we might be saved!
Thanks be to God who has given us His holiness by His Holy Spirit!
The Majesty of majesties is the Lord God our Father!

=D

For more on this subject:
[url=http://www.gospeltruth.net/Barnes_atonement/barnesindex.htm]The Atonement by Albert Barnes[/url]
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8212125836594796606&q=mike+Desario&total=52&start=0&num=20&so=1&type=search&plindex=10]Examine Yourself video by Mike DeSario[/url]

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:25 (Christ)Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I think all of these pretty much answer the question.

Because you believe a man regenerates himself, I suppose you are threatended by justification by faith alone as were the Jews in Paul's day who demanded that sinners must do something other than believe in Christ for justification. Some form of outward proof must be shown, or done to earn God's favour. Paul said these were to be accursed, not heralded as true teachers.

But if you believed that God and God alone gives faith through the regenerated heart, and that faith is a fruit of the new birth, and not the cause, then you would see how faith will have works. Tue justifying faith will have works of repentance, godliness, etc., and it will not be manipulated, or unproductive.

It is much like this. Say you want to run in the Olympics, so you go to find out what must be done to do so. You are told you must qualify in the time alloted to make it. Whle at the qualifying meet, you notice that other runners have very developed leg muscles, and the majority of them are very thin.

Now it would be foolish to say that in order to make it to the Olympics you must have developed leg muscles, and be thin as those are traits of those who are qualifying, but not the determining factor of making it to the Olympics, as there are many who have developed leg muscles, but did not or cannot meet the qualifying time. The only ones who qualify are the ones who meet the criteria for qualification.

You are doing a similar thing by saying that good works are traits of those who are justified, therefore only those who do good works are justified. You are blurring the doctrines of justification and sanctification.

Consider Paul's descriptions of the Christians in Philippi-
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

These trusted Christ fully for their justification, and put no confidence in their flesh as a means of justification.

All throughout Church History, it seems that whenever the Church becomes weak, there arise groups bent on getting Christians to "do something" to prove their justification. Unfortunately much of this ends in burn out, and even falling away because much of it is rooted in the flesh.

Brother I will tell you from my own experience, I have never hungered after holiness, and purity more, and the reason is that I know my salvation is sure, and out of love for Him who freed me, I want to be what He requires, and enables me to be. Grace gives all it requires, while the Law say do this, make bricks without straw, and you shall live. But that is a lie as it only leads to bondage and death.

Satan loves to get us to look to anything other than Christ for our sufficiency, but the child of God is safely tucked into Christ where no demon, nor anything else can touch him without the permission of the Father.

Nile, are you trying to say that ones own righteousness can save them?

God, I admit to having once been a rebellious and wicked sinner. However, I repented of my sins and obeyed You the remainder of my life.

So then what happens when I haven't obeyed perfectly for the remainder of my life? Having been saved am I now under obligation to keep the law that could not save me, with the comfort of knowing that if I do not succeed Christ will intervene again and forgive my sins, but will do so with the object of again placing me under an obligation to keep the law?

I see a very different approach in the New Testament.

In Christ,

Ron

I see a very different approach in the New Testament.

[b]In Christ[/b]

Brother Ron, I borrowed your closing comment as it presents the New Testament approach precisely as a Child of God stands.

Here is the cornerstone of Christianity, we are united to our Head by the Spirit upon new birth.

Now we can see why Paul would ask-
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, [b]Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/b]

jarona wrote:
Nile, are you trying to say that ones own righteousness can save them?

No! It is only God who saves, and that by faith in Him (Eph 2:8-10). God is the only one who can save a sinner - nothing that sinner can do will save them without God. However with God, there are things a sinner can do to be saved. He can repent and believe the gospel for the remission of sins (Mark 1:15).

Thanks for the question, I hope that explains.

So then what happens when I haven't obeyed perfectly for the remainder of my life? Having been saved am I now under obligation to keep the law that could not save me, with the comfort of knowing that if I do not succeed Christ will intervene again and forgive my sins, but will do so with the object of again placing me under an obligation to keep the law?

I would point to these scriptures:
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
1 John 3:6-9
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

If you look at the context, Paul is speaking about salvation coming from the Jewish law, which is impossible.

roaringlamb, do you believe that if you willfully break the law after having begun in the Spirit that you will be saved?
Or do you believe that you must continue to obey?

Nile

I want to briefly look at Ephesians 2:8-9 which seems to contradict James 2:24

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Paul is emphasizing that nothing you do will ever [i]earn[/i] or [i]merit[/i] you salvation. Nothing you do will ever cause you to [i]deserve[/i] forgiveness. Nothing you do will ever cause your [i]guilt[/i] to be removed.
The only way our sins are forgiven is by the grace of God, and that through faith.

However, to say that we can do nothing to be saved is contrary to scripture:

Acts 2:37
"Brothers, what shall we do?"

Acts 16:29
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

The answer is to have faith and repent.

In summary:

1. No work we can do will justify us; only God can justify us.
2. If we have faith and repentance God will justify us.
3. Therefore we are justified by faith and repentance.

Nile

I would point to these scriptures: Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins 1 John 3:6-9 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

In answering my question by quoting these verses are you saying that nothing but perfect obedience from the moment of conversion is required? If so, that sounds very much like the Law, it declares, "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."(Rom 10:5). But for the one who would fail at any one point it declares, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."(Gal 3:10).

Brother, are you honestly going to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and proclaim that you have perfectly obeyed God for the remainder of your life? If not, then why would you boast of any obedience at all? It is Christ who is made unto you righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, boast in Him alone. You will be as much in need of His grace after walking with Him for 40 years as you were on the day that you were born-again.

In Christ,

Ron

In answering my question by quoting these verses are you saying that nothing but perfect obedience from the moment of conversion is required?

I am saying that if you sin, you need to repent again, and unless you do you are not justified before God.

If so, that sounds very much like the Law, it declares, "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."(Rom 10:5). But for the one who would fail at any one point it declares, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."(Gal 3:10).

I think he is here referring to the law of Moses, not to the law of the Spirit, the law of love.

Brother, are you honestly going to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and proclaim that you have perfectly obeyed God for the remainder of your life?

I will proclaim that I have followed Christ and have taken up my cross daily. That I have had faith in God to justify me and have obeyed His word. If I have fallen away from obedience to God, I will repent and turn back. Therefore I will proclaim that I have run the race and have finished strong.

If not, then why would you boast of any obedience at all? It is Christ who is made unto you righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, boast in Him alone.

Why would I boast in my obedience? A servant does what he is told and expects no reward. My forgiveness comes from God alone and not from myself. I have nothing to boast of.

You will be as much in need of His grace after walking with Him for 40 years as you were on the day that you were born-again.

I agree, only by His grace can we be cleansed from all sin and walk by the Spirit.

Here is my question to you:
This living faith that is required to be saved, what does it believe?

Nile

Now we can see why Paul would ask-
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

According to Scripture we have two choices. The first is that we according to the flesh try to obey the law. The second is that according to the Spirit we are led to obey the law.

According to Scripture we are reconciled to God through the blood of His Son.

Romans 5:

10 "For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,..."

According to Scripture we are "saved" by His life.

Romans 5:10

"...much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

What does a life look like when one is obeying the Spirit?

In Christ
Jeff

Brother Ormly askes

What Law?

The law of the Spirit in Christ which was established before the foundation of this world.

In Christ
Jeff

Man trying to obey the Law of Christ by his flesh and failing at it? I don't understand

We have been given the word of God. We can by reading it gain a picture of what God requires of us. Yet we in our daily walk cannot please God by placing ourselves within that picture.

Paul teaches this in Romans 7:

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Only by submitting to the Spirit's leading will one know "how to perform what is good."

In Christ
Jeff

Nile, here is what you wrote in your original post;

So, a man seeking to be justified by faith and works, will argue this at the judgment: "God, I admit to having once been a rebellious and wicked sinner. However, I repented of my sins and obeyed You the remainder of my life.

In your last post you said;

Why would I boast in my obedience? A servant does what he is told and expects no reward. My forgiveness comes from God alone and not from myself. I have nothing to boast of.

Now, if you expect no reward for your obedience, why would you be mentioning it at the judgment seat? I think we will be pleading the blood of Christ alone. Father, just as I am I come to you with no defense of my own other than you have bid me to come because of what Jesus has done, I come.

This living faith that is required to be saved, what does it believe?

It believes that God has reconciled me to Himself through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ. Beyond just what it believes, there is the need for this belief to be not just from the head but from a heart turned toward God. "My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways."(Pro 23:26). When a man believes in that way and his heart is filled with the Spirit he will indeed detest sin and trust and obey the Lord but his confidence and assurance will not be in his obedience, it will be in the work of Christ and the promise of God that that work has satisfied Him.

In Christ,

Ron

Perfect Obedience is the requirement for a man to approach God. It always has been, and always will be.

Now from whence comes this perfect obedience?

If you say "man must..", then you bypass the life of complete obedience of Christ, which is imputed to our account. It must be, or we have no hope of salvation.

Consider these verses-
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: [b]for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/b]
Gal 3:22 [b]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe[/b]

We need a perfect righteousness in place for us to come to God, not just when we die, but every moment of every day. If Christ is not that righteousness that is ever before God, then what hope do I have in coming to God? How could Paul say in Hebrews, "come boldly to throne of grace, to obtain mercy in time of need" if we had to come by our own merit?

Much of this argument is based either upon a faulty conception of what God requires to come to Him, or a misunderstanding of Christ's work for us. I by no means have mastered this, but this is a huge issue if we are to walk with our God, and bring glory to Him.

WE are justified by faith in Christ Jesus, a sacrificial gift from God for our suffering and obedience . We have received many spiritual gifts from God after we are justified and two of these gifts are love and charity, they do the works. We have been warned not to hide our treasures in the ground. Some don’t seem to put to much stock in heavenly treasures because of a false sense of security from self righteousness.
Eddie

God's wrath is against sin...

...His Holiness will not permit it in His presence.

Brother Ormly asked:

Really?? Then how about explaining those who never heard of Jesus Christ and yet still find/found approval in God?

Seems you need to make better distinctions.

Are you refering to the eklesia that has existed in all generations or those who chose to remain in bondage to the world's slavemaster Satan?

In Christ
jeff

There is no mystical covering for unrepentant sins.

1 John 3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 2:29 - If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

We ourselves actually need to be made holy through Jesus Christ, by obeying the Spirit.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

bro Nile you wrote:

I want to briefly look at Ephesians 2:8-9 which seems to contradict James 2:24

We know there is no contradiction in scripture, only in our understanding of it which means a misunderstanding of the Author also. To read something in the word and find something else which seems to say otherwise to us is evidence of not allowing Holy Spirit to make clear what is being said. To say something we don't understand is contradictory is quite prideful and is a slander against the Author. If we don't know, then we don't know and as was said to us through James in chapt 1:

[b] 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.[/b]

Let us not be lax in pressing into God for revelation of His HOly Book. We can never have studied the word enough after all it is like it's Author, Inexhaustible.

When we look at James 2:24, we must consider what James says before that about faith and works and then things make more sense.

from James 2:

[b]14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [/b]

We know that Faith, that is Perfect Faith, Namely the Faith of Christ by which we are Saved comes from God Himself as a gift. We know that this is a unique Faith because the faith which the heathen have is not sufficient for Salvation. If we have received this Faith from God unto Salvation, surely there must be [i]evidence[/i] of this. Hence:

[b]15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.[/b]

The Evidence of the Faith of Christ is in what He did, the way He Loved. He said that men would know we are His disciples by how we [i]Love[/i] one another and Love is what we do.

[b]18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without F8 thy works,[/b][u][i][b] and I will shew thee my faith by my works.[/b][/i][/u]

i think the last bit which i underlined is key in understanding what bro James is saying. Works do not Justify or Save but they are [i][b]evidence[/b][/i] of Salvation. In fact the word Justify doesn't mean save but rather means to show to be right or give evidence that something/one is right... all of a sudden Romans 8:29-30 is quite interesting...anyhow back to the text at hand

James 2:

[b]19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.[/b][i][b]20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.[/b][/i]

So we see that it is not the works which Save but the works evidence Salvation. For Abraham, we can say that this Faith which he had was not like that of his father who was an idolater, nor like that of most people on the earth at that time. This Faith had to come from the Throne of GOd because there is nothing which could make a man believe as he did nor do as he did. So it is with the Faith we have not only in Christ but of Christ also. It is Faith from the Throne of God because this is the only kind of Faith sufficient for Salvation.

However, to say that we can do nothing to be saved is contrary to scripture:

well i think the testimony of scripture is different. i would say that if we could save ourselves, there would be no need for Christ because were He not slain from the setting of the foundations of the world, there could be no Salvation. Consider John 6 and what our Lord says of coming to Him for Salvation:

[b] 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. [/b]

[i][b]44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [/b][/i]

This to me implies that Salvation rests on God entirely. i may be wrong, i am not the sharpest tool in the shed but i feel strongly convinced of this. If anyone thinks i am convinced in error please pray very hard for me for it would be much needed.

continuing on Christ says:

[b]45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. [/b]

this is not all men but those drawn by the Father and having been so drawn is bound to Him, to come to Christ not because it is the man's will, but because it is God's.

[b]47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. [/b]

so if to Believe in Christ is to be Saved and have Eternal Life, then it seems to me that it depends on God the Father...Then Christ talks about eating His Flesh and Drinking His Blood and the people around HIm are repulsed...clearly God had not given them ability to grasp what is being said here. To understand and accept what comes from Heaven to me requires and intervention from Heaven to make it possible.

[b]63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. [/b]

it seems to me from this scripture that to understand the Word of Life requires intervention by the Spirit because the flesh can't do it.

[b]64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. [/b][i][b]65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [/b][/i]

Then everyone else left except the 12. these are many people who left. however the 12 stayed because unto them had been extended Grace to take in the Words of Life.

yes indeed it is required that we repent and be baptized as Peter said in the Acts but it seems to me to so do requires and extension of Grace from the Throne of Grace. It seems to me it is not in our nature to repent but God gives Grace that we can Repent.

so i guess we can say that James 2:24 says that a man is shown to be right by works (doing) and not faith (professing by mouth) only. This is not the same as saying that a man is saved by works not by faith only. to be saved is one thing, to be justified is a consequence of being saved.

perhaps i am off in the deep end here, if any think so, hold me up in prayer that i may be delivered if i am deceived.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

No one is arguing this point either. Holiness is totally different than righteousness.

A quick comment. I don't think the Bible uses the word righteousness in the way you are thinking.

Ezekiel 18:21-24

But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the [b]righteousness[/b] which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
“But when a [b]righteous[/b] man turns away from his [b]righteousness[/b] and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the [b]righteousness[/b] which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Also look in the Proverbs and Psalms.

Nile

Not for salvation, which is what you are trying to make it mean.

in a nutshell, are saying one must be perfect to come God or Christ as it must be gift of some sort. Is that not so?

Ironman,

I need prayer also if you are wrong, but my spirit agrees with your spirit, by the Spirit of Christ that is in us. Also the Holy Spirit Teacher reveals this truth in agreement with the Spirit of Christ, that this is who He, The Holy Spirit teaches only Christ and will not speak of Himself.

In Christ: by One Spirit which we are baptized into: Phillip

Bro Phillip me too! :-D

So, if in fact faith is not enough for salvation, what about our Lord's words here-
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and [b]him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/b]
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And [b]this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [/b]
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, [b]that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

Now we now that Scripture doesn't contradict itself, especially when God incarnate, the very Author is speaking. So either we are wrong to presume salvation which begins with justification may be had and then lost, or Christ was wrong in stating this.

I take the former :-D

moe_mac, you ought to be a preacher! :-D
Your post so blessed me, you expressed these truths wonderfully. Thank you. God bless you brother.

moe_mac, a quick comment: Penitence is not Repentance. Godly sorrow leads to repentance, that is, turning from sin, stopping sin, ceasing to sin, not sinning again. Worldly sorrow leads to death. There is a difference!

roaringlamb wrote:
So, if in fact faith is not enough for salvation, what about our Lord's words here-
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and [b]him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/b]
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And [b]this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [/b]
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, [b]that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

Now we now that Scripture doesn't contradict itself, especially when God incarnate, the very Author is speaking. So either we are wrong to presume salvation which begins with justification may be had and then lost, or Christ was wrong in stating this.

I take the former :-D

These passages say nothing about a person forfeiting salvation. They are talking about Christ's faithfulness. He will not lose any given to Him. He is faithful to the end. The question is, are we?

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, [b]lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.[/b]

Did Paul doubt Christ's ability to not lose him?

Nile

lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Did Paul doubt Christ's ability to not lose him?

No, because this does not mean he will be, it is a warning not to be.

It would be like me telling you, "if you play in the street, you will get hit by a car."

So should I assume now that you will?

One verse does not negate a host of others. Paul is not a schizophrenic, he would not write, "I am persuaded that nothing shall seperate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus" if that could happen. He also said, "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: [b]for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.[/b] 2Timothy 1:12

Paul constantly looked to Another as his means of righteousness, and source for strength.

bros Phillip and Roaringlamb

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

well if indeed we are deceived and are so thoroughly convinced of these things, then we are in dire need of help. Yet there is something which comes when God Imparts something to you; when God deals with you and makes things plain, there is a surety which comes with that. it is not arrogant but a Jealousy for that thing of God which simply won't waver no matter what. i feel this is what we share, if it isn't then we really need your prayers dear saints.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Thank you brother, I needed that :-D

Brother Ormly wrote:

I am speaking of those righteous, justified by faith in [a] God whose name they did not know and obviously, who never heard of Jesus Christ

Would you site some Scripture so I know to whom you are refering to here?

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff