When did you repent?

I think this a difficult question in our day as there are so many forms of a gospel that many are led to believe they have repented under the true Gospel, but may yet be far from the Kingdom.

In my own testimony, a gentleman shared Scritpure with me over the phone(wrong number by the way!), and it was as if a light went on, and I saw tha had offended God, and I asked Christ to save me. It of course has been a continual repentance from that day forward. Yet prior to that, I did not really care about my soul. I was troubled in conscience off and on, yet had no power to change what was troubling me as I couldn't put my finger on it. This is why it must be the Spirit that convicts of sin, and illuminates Christ through the preaching of the Scriptures, and not a manipulation of emotion, or reason simply to gain a statistic.

I firmly believe that a man cannot truly repent unless he is regenerated first so that he sees his crime. A natural man has no care for his offence against God, so it is impossible for a natural man to repent. But praise God, he commands that men repent and believe, and gives the ability to repent and believe to whom He will.

roaringlamb wrote:
But praise God, he commands that men repent and believe, [b]and gives the ability to repent and believe [u]to whom He will.[/u][/b]

Amen, and the Scripture reveals His will:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 [b]Who will have all men to be saved,[/b] and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Praise God for that! And His will and actions are not in contradiction.

After the Lord draws you to Him, illuminate your soul, reveals your sins, now it's your turn, you can harden your heart or you can respond and turn to God in repentance:

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that [b]they[/b] should repent and [b]turn[/b] to God, and [b]do[/b] works meet for repentance.

John the baptist says the same thing:

Luke 3:8 [b]Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance,[/b] and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, [u]That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.[/u]

I want you to know that the greatest heresy in the American evangelical and protestant church is
that, if you pray and ask Jesus Christ to come into your heart, He will definitely come in. You
will not find that in any place in Scripture. You will not find that anywhere in Baptist history
until about 50 years ago. What you need to know is that salvation is by faith and faith alone in
Jesus Christ. [b]And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance[/b] . . . a
turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates and a love for the things that God
loves, a growing in holiness and a desire not to be like Britney Spears, not to be like the world,
and not to be like the great majority of American Christians, but to be like Jesus Christ!

Paul Washer

Faith is a state or an attidue of the heart, and consists of both repenting and believing from the heart...

...and seeking Him.

Heb 11:6 But [b]without faith[/b] it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God [b]must believe[/b] that he is, and that he is a rewarder of [b]them that diligently seek him.[/b]

Jeremiah 29:13 [b]And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me [u]with all your heart.[/u] [/b]

John 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, [b]Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me:[/b] and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, [b]Jesus stood and cried,[/b] saying, If [b][u]any man[/u][/b] thirst, let him [b]come unto me,[/b] and drink.

Jesus is crying, you need to stand up and go and you will say I am dead and I cannot hear His voice and cannot stand, you don't have excuse because when Jesus said come that means you can come, when He says repent that means you must repent, when says seek Me that means you can seek Him, and not because this is something from [b]you[/b], but because He gave ability and revealed His will, by His mercy and grace [b]everyone[/b] who will come, He will not reject!

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and [b]him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/b]
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 [b][u]And this is[/u] the will of him that sent me, [u]that every one[/u] which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:[/b] and I will raise him up at the last day.

NIV Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel?

NIV Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that [b]men should[/b] repent.

I belive God gives us the ability to repent, he gives us the free choice to either repent and be saved , or not and die in our sins.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

isent the people "choosing" to serve other Gods? to walk another way? God wants all people to be saved, we may all choose to come to HIM who can save us.

isent the people "choosing" to serve other Gods? to walk another way? God wants all people to be saved, we may all choose to come to HIM who can save us.

That's why we preach the Gospel to every one, that they might choose, their ways or God's ways.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, [b]choose you this day whom ye will serve;[/b] whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

The salvation is for everyone.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 [b]Who will have all men to be saved,[/b] and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

my own testimony is that i was utterly tired and despised my way of life, i would rather have died then continued to live like that, and also in a phone conversation i was told about Jesus and who he was and what he did on the cross and what i had to do to be saved. And i [b]choose[/b] to belive right then and there. And before i came home i was born again and recived a new heart.

And im so think God is wonderful that he wishes the same thing he did for me to ALL men!

Glory to God

Very interesting what the Strongs says about this word which here is translated as [b]partiality[/b] and KJV as [b]respect of persons,[/b] it says:

pros-o-pol-ape-see'-ah
From G4381; partiality, that is, [b]favoritism[/b]: - respect of persons.

Webster:

Favoritism
FA'VORITISM, n.

1. The act or practice of favoring, or [b]giving a preference to one over another.[/b]

2. The disposition to favor, aid and promote the interest of a favorite, or of one person or family, [b]or of one class of men, to the neglect of others having equal claims.[/b]

Lazarus1719 wrote:
Because the doctrine of partiality is terrible and unscriptural, and the truth is that God wants all men to repent and be saved, God then cannot be blamed for the impenitence of the world, but it must be credited to man's own freewill, since our just and gracious God gives man ability to a company what He commands of them.

Impenitence is man's own willfull obstinance, a refusal to do what God requires him to do, what God gives him the ability to do; so impenitence is the fault of man's freewill and not the fault of God's Sovereignty, since God is not partial but wants all to repent and be saved.

God's Holy Sovereign Will cannot will that the majority of the world live in sin and die in sin. All sin is rebellion against the Will of God. Sinners live in sin and die in sin contrary to God's Holy Will.

So we can grieve with God over the sin and impenitence of the world.

Genesis 6:5-6

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

And we can long for man's repentance, just as God longs for man's repentance:

Eze 18:32 - For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze 33:11 - Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn yourselves, turn yourselves from your evil ways; for why will ye die?

fribergs lexicon

proswpolhmpte,w (or proswpolhpte,w) show partiality or favoritism, treat one person better than another

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

and what i find strange about this doctrine, that God says it is sin for me to show partiality, how then can he do it him self? isent that what hypocrites do? tell others do do things they them self dont. Is the almighty God like that?

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that [b]all[/b] men through him might believe.

Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to [b]all[/b] men,

Now here is a calvanist that could preach ! [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6524&forum=34]Compel them to come in[/url] by Spurgeon. We need more preachers who preach like this.

Brother Jesse wrote

If there is no difference, no actual change, no actual transformation, no actual regereration, no radical new birth, then it simply isn't a new heart. Nothing can be considered believing from the heart except believing unto righteousness.

Where in Scripture does it speak of a "radical new heart?"

In Christ
Jeff

maybe radical isent the most appropriate word to describe it, but its quite clear it is a "dramatic" change.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the (1 )corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

If there is no difference, no actual change, no actual transformation, no actual regereration, no radical new birth, then it simply isn't a new heart. Nothing can be considered believing from the heart except believing unto righteousness.

To be regenerated is to have a New Heart.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the (1 )corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

But notice who is doing it.

We are sadly mistaken , if we think all men have the natural ability to repent, and believe the Gospel. For Scripture tells us that none seek Him, none do good, and all are dead in sin. So how does a dead man do something unless he is given life?

Ezekiel 37 is one of the most wonderful pictures of our duty as bearers of the Gospel. If you notice the audience, they are dead, actually beyond dead, there is not even any flesh on the bones.

Yet as Ezekiel proclaims the word of the Lord, GOD works to bring life, and begins to create flesh, and blood. Then He put His Spirit within them, and they live.

Thus when we look at Paul's words in Romans 10-
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Our mission so to speak is to preach Christ and Him crucified, and the Spirit will give life to whom He will. We plant and water, but God gives the increase.

Many modern evangelists, and churches believe that man can respond on his own and do not rely upon the Spirit's work in applying salvation to the sinner's soul. Therefore they reduce the gospel to a mental thing, "do you believe this, do you believe that?"

But a true working of the Spirit will produce conviction, repentance, and sanctification. But these are all fruits of the new birth and not the cause of the new birth. This is where we have erred grievously. In thinking that these certain acts are what lead to the new birth, this has given way to a "decisional regenration" type of mentality wherein if a person demonstrates these, we assume they are born again. But in reality, they may only be responding to what has been said is the means to peace, joy etc.

Again look at the man with the withered hand, or Lazarus in the tomb, and notice that though they could not in and of themselves do what God was commanding, God enabled them to do what He wasa commanding.

but if not all men has the ability to repent & believe how can God throw them in hell when they had no chance to respond because God dident work in them by the spirit?

how can God command all people to repent when he know they cant anyway?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

Although God says

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

He also says

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

The reason the Lord is performing the operation in chapter 36 is because man cannot get his own heart. But if man repents from his sin and desires the new heart God indeed will give it to him. You must believe and act on chapter 18 to make way for the promise of chapter 36.

Dead in sin talks of the inability to remove oneself from the situation and depravity of sin. However God can do it and we can ask Him to, by believing the promise He made to us by faith. "None do good" is a call to all people to realize they don't do good and come to Christ. We have to realize that Jesus is the source of all that's necessary for salvation and then reach out our hands in faith to recieve.

Again look at the man with the withered hand, or Lazarus in the tomb, and notice that though they could not in and of themselves do what God was commanding, God enabled them to do what He was acommanding.

Amen. We cannot do what God commands of our own strength, but to those who realize that they can come to God of their own freewill to recieve the ability to perform.

It seems to me that just because God CAN override people and may have done so in miracles on a few occasions doesn't mean that that is what God ALWAYS does. We have to look at all the scriptures. People he healed could have refused to take up their bed and walk, or wash in the pool of Siloam, or whatever else Jesus often commanded in conjunction with His healing. But Jesus did miracles for people who had faith- and that faith of necessity brought appropriate works. And now God commands men everywhere to repent and believe.

Deuteronomy 30:10-14 If you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

HopePurifies wrote:
But Jesus did miracles [b]for people who had faith[/b]- and [u]that faith[/u] of necessity brought appropriate works. And now God commands men everywhere to repent and believe.

Yes, that is what the Scripture teach us.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, [b]Thy faith hath saved thee;[/b] go in peace.

Luke 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: [b]thy faith hath made thee whole;[/b] go in peace.

Luke 17:19 And he said unto him, [b]Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.[/b]

Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, [b]Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.[/b]
Luke 18:43 And [b]immediately[/b] he received his sight, and followed him,

Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of [b]their unbelief.[/b] And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, [b]Because of your unbelief:[/b] for verily I say unto you, [b]If ye have faith[/b] as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

but if not all men has the ability to repent & believe how can God throw them in hell when they had no chance to respond because God dident work in them by the spirit?

Brother, God owes salvation to no man. Therefore unless He intervened into mankind all would be lost.

Now what I find interesting is that none will decry the unfairness of satan's condemnation, and that of his demons, but they will decry the fact that not all men are saved. Why has satan been damned? Because of his sin, and all those who sinned with him share that future.

Now let us hypothetically suggest that a demon could be changed(again this is hypothetical).
Did I mentioin this is completely hypothetical?

Ok, so let's say that one of the demons was to be saved. They are condemned because they do nothing but sin, and their nature is after their father the devil. So how could this be altered? Can a leopard change his spots, or the Ethiopian his skin? Who can bring forth a pure thing from and impure thing? Wouldn't there need to be a new birth? out of death and damnation and into life and Christ. Who can do this but God alone?

Man however thinks he is better than that even though Scripture tells us we are lower than the angels. But man in his pride will say, "I am not like that, or I am not that bad."

But all sin is damnable is it not.

If we really understood sin, and its effects upon man, we would see it is very just for God even if He saves none. But it is the glory of His mercy that He saves any. God has always had a predetermined group of people. All through the Scriptures this is evident, salvation was not offered to all in the OT, yet God in grace sends Jonah to the worst of the worst and they repent while the Philistines, and Babylonians foolow gods after their own making.

God never casted off Israel, but chastened and rebuked them to purge them of the offending action. It has not changed, God still chastens His children to purge them of what offends.

roaringlamb said:
We are sadly mistaken , if we think [b]all men have the natural ability to repent,[/b] and believe the Gospel. For Scripture tells us that none seek Him, none do good, and all are dead in sin. So how does a dead man do something unless he is given life?

If that is true, that the Lord is speaking in vain those words:

Eze 18:23 [b]Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?[/b] saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, [b]shall he live?[/b] All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, [b]in them shall he die.[/b]

Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? [b]are not your ways unequal?[/b]

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Eze 18:27 Again, [b][u]when[/u][/b] the wicked man [b]turneth away[/b] from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, [b][u]he shall save his soul alive.[/u] [/b]

Eze 18:28 [b]Because[/b] he considereth, [b]and turneth away[/b] from all his transgressions that he hath committed, [b]he shall surely live,[/b] he shall not die.

God is He who commands [b]everyone[/b] now to repent, and when He commands that means it is possible to do that. And of course that means after repentance and faith [b]He[/b] will give them a new heart, and will save them from their since, but they need to confess their sins and repent of that they are utterly helpless and they need Savior.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for [b]he shall save his people from their sins.[/b]

But first you need to repent of your wicked ways and turn with faith to the Savior.

roaringlamb:
Brother, God owes salvation to no man. Therefore unless He intervened into mankind all would be lost.

Brother, this is absolutely true! He doesn't owe anything to anyone.
But do you see what is His will in the Scriptures for the salvation of all men?

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

Luke 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Luke 18:43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him,

Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

But what was the basis of this faith? Was it not a revelation of who Christ was? and as a result of this, they believed?

The faith is a result of God revealling Christ to the soul. Note Peter's words here-
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But [b]whom say ye that I am?[/b]
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, [b]Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.[/b]
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, [b]Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.[/b]

Faith is always based upon a revelation of some aspect of Christ. Which means the Spirit is at work whether we are aware or not, and the wind is blowing though we do not know where it comes from. Something must be revealed before man can believe.

Apart from faith, the Gospel in itself is irrational. Think of telling someone, "Christ died for sin according to the Scriptures."

The natural man will say, "I am not a sinner therfeore that is good for you, but not for me, for I am a good person."

Now some will say, "Yes now we jump on them with the Law, and show them their sin."

But the Law is Spiritual, and must be applied by the Spirit in order for it to achieve its ultimate goal- faith in Christ. If we only convict them of their moral shortcomings, and they repent in a fleshly manner, then flesh must uphold that life, and it will profit nothing, as Christ said, "the flesh profits nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life."

If that is true, that the Lord is speaking in vain those words:

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Brother who are those words spoken to?

If they were spoken to all nations around Israel, then I would say that you have a good case, but these wrods are spoke to Israel, God's people, as are many of the passages that we try to use for universal redemption.

In no means does this mean we don't preach to men to repent and believe as Christ told men to do things they could not do in their natural self. We preach, He gives life. We call outwardly, He applies the call inwardly by His Spirit, thus many are called(outwardly), but few are chosen(inwardly).

The inability only compounds guilt, and man will either grow softer(by the Spirit) as he hears the Gospel, or he will grow harder ulitmately showing his reprobation.

But we never, never stop preaching the Gospel, as this is the means that our brethren will be born.

roaringlamb wrote:

If that is true, that the Lord is speaking in vain those words:

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Brother who are those words spoken to?

If they were spoken to all nations around Israel, then I would say that you have a good case, but these wrods are spoke to Israel, God's people, as are many of the passages that we try to use for universal redemption.

In no means does this mean we don't preach to men to repent and believe as Christ told men to do things they could not do in their natural self. We preach, He gives life. We call outwardly, He applies the call inwardly by His Spirit, thus many are called(outwardly), but few are chosen(inwardly).

The inability only compounds guilt, and man will either grow softer(by the Spirit) as he hears the Gospel, or he will grow harder ulitmately showing his reprobation.

But we never, never stop preaching the Gospel, as this is the means that our brethren will be born.

So God does takes pleasure in the wicked dying outside of Israel? So God does not will the wicked to turn from their ways outside of Israel?

but dear brother roaringlamb , it seems to me if God only choosen a few to be saved, or enabled just a few to be saved. That he would be unjust, God dont make a difference between humans, we have all sinned. We are all the same in front of God. Why would he not give all the same opportunity to come and be saved? that is what i dont get brother.

then he would do the very thing he says in James is sin, to treat people different.

So God does takes pleasure in the wicked dying outside of Israel? So God does not will the wicked to turn from their ways outside of Israel?

God has un-born children in every tribe, tongue, and nation, and these will be brought to faith as the Holy Spirit applies the work of Christ to their hearts. Therefore I know that God loves men of all sorts, not just Israel.

But to make those verses that apply to Israel proper, and perhaps even spiritual Israel, apply to the world is not fair to the text or the purpose of God.

If we say that God's purpose is to save everyone that has lived, and that does not happen we must infer that either God is weak, or that man is strong and neither of the two are true.

All of God's plans will come to pass. If this were not true the Bible would be in error, but because we see that God alone has the audacity to foretell events, and then work all things to bring about those events, we can trust in both the truth of Scripture, and more importantly the truth of Christ, and his word, and work.

If we exalt man above what he is, and demote God to being just a "big" man, it is like a loose thread on a sweater, and all it takes is one tug, and the whole begins to unravel.

The Bible speaks nothing of man stopping God's acts, or purposes. But in fact it speaks of God overriding men's desires, and plans to bring about His will.

I am still wrestling through much of this, so I am glad for the conversation. :-)

I am still wrestling through much of this, so I am glad for the conversation.

i im to brother, it is wonderful when men can talk about these "hot" topics without getting out of controll,

here is a link for those who want to study some more and read,it is quite long and i dont agree on everything in there but it is a very profitable read still [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15531&forum=34&2]The Doctrine of repentance by Thomas Watson[/url]

but dear brother roaringlamb , it seems to me if God only choosen a few to be saved, or enabled just a few to be saved. That he would be unjust, God dont make a difference between humans, we have all sinned. We are all the same in front of God. Why would he not give all the same opportunity to come and be saved? that is what i dont get brother.

Brother I am simply stating what is true. Israel in the OT was exalted above all other nations were they not? Yet God tells them this-
Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: [b]the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.[/b]
Deu 7:7 [b]The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:[/b]
Deu 7:8 [b]But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[/b]

It is no different for the spiritual Israel. God did not choose us for anything in us, but rather because He loved us, "we love Him, because he first loved us." Notice it does not say, "He loves us, becasue we first loved Him." (That is a whole other can of worms)

But as God knew all who would be in Israel, He kept the covenant with all who came. God knew when the Covenant was made who would be in Israel in the time to come, and thus He binds Himself to keep the oath with them.

In Christ, God has made a covenant as well, and He knows all who will be in Christ under that covenant, He knew from the foundation of the Earth as Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the Earth. It's not really different. God foreknew all who would be in Israel and worked according to His covenant, and God knew all who would be in Christ, and is working according to His covenant.

I simply must affirm tha God has a general love for His creatures. he gives them life, light, pleasure etc. But He has a special love, a saving love for His foreknown people.

I have no idea who they are, or how many they will be, but that is apparent from Scripture.

roaringlamb wrote:

but dear brother roaringlamb , it seems to me if God only choosen a few to be saved, or enabled just a few to be saved. That he would be unjust, God dont make a difference between humans, we have all sinned. We are all the same in front of God. Why would he not give all the same opportunity to come and be saved? that is what i dont get brother.

Brother I am simply stating what is true. Israel in the OT was exalted above all other nations were they not? Yet God tells them this-
Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: [b]the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.[/b]
Deu 7:7 [b]The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:[/b]
Deu 7:8 [b]But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[/b]

It is no different for the spiritual Israel. God did not choose us for anything in us, but rather because He loved us, "we love Him, because he first loved us." Notice it does not say, "He loves us, becasue we first loved Him." (That is a whole other can of worms)

But as God knew all who would be in Israel, He kept the covenant with all who came. God knew when the Covenant was made who would be in Israel in the time to come, and thus He binds Himself to keep the oath with them.

In Christ, God has made a covenant as well, and He knows all who will be in Christ under that covenant, He knew from the foundation of the Earth as Christ is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the Earth. It's not really different. God foreknew all who would be in Israel and worked according to His covenant, and God knew all who would be in Christ, and is working according to His covenant.

I simply must affirm tha God has a general love for His creatures. he gives them life, light, pleasure etc. But He has a special love, a saving love for His foreknown people.

I have no idea who they are, or how many they will be, but that is apparent from Scripture.

But we know that Israel was not chosen on the basis of only saving Israel. We know that Israel was God's chosen nation to bring God to all peoples so that all could be saved. He chose them because He loved them, and also because He knew that His name would be glorified in exalting so small a nation.

Yes, we love Him because He first loved us. If He did not love us, and die on the cross to atone for our sins, extending grace and pardon, we would have continued in rebellion stuck in our sins. It does not mean that we cannot choose Him. God loves everyone, He extends His love to everyone, and whoever loves Him, loves Him because He loved them. That does not mean people who are loved by God cannot hate Him in return, thats bad logic.

roaringlamb wrote:

So God does takes pleasure in the wicked dying outside of Israel? So God does not will the wicked to turn from their ways outside of Israel?

God has un-born children in every tribe, tongue, and nation, and these will be brought to faith as the Holy Spirit applies the work of Christ to their hearts. Therefore I know that God loves men of all sorts, not just Israel.

But to make those verses that apply to Israel proper, and perhaps even spiritual Israel, apply to the world is not fair to the text or the purpose of God.

If we say that God's purpose is to save everyone that has lived, and that does not happen we must infer that either God is weak, or that man is strong and neither of the two are true.

All of God's plans will come to pass. If this were not true the Bible would be in error, but because we see that God alone has the audacity to foretell events, and then work all things to bring about those events, we can trust in both the truth of Scripture, and more importantly the truth of Christ, and his word, and work.

If we exalt man above what he is, and demote God to being just a "big" man, it is like a loose thread on a sweater, and all it takes is one tug, and the whole begins to unravel.

The Bible speaks nothing of man stopping God's acts, or purposes. But in fact it speaks of God overriding men's desires, and plans to bring about His will.

I am still wrestling through much of this, so I am glad for the conversation. :-)

I present a third option. God's purpose was for men to freely choose Him (edit: as many of us believe is implied by our understanding of love). Therefore though He wills all to be saved, some still choose not to. His purpose is not thwarted, for we know people choose to follow Him every day.

Anytime that God overrides man's will it is an exception to the rule, and whatever He causes that man to do is never contrary to that man's established character.

I present a third option. God's purpose was for men to freely choose Him (edit: as many of us believe is implied by our understanding of love). Therefore though He wills all to be saved, some still choose not to. His purpose is not thwarted, for we know people choose to follow Him every day.

Anytime that God overrides man's will it is an exception to the rule, and whatever He causes that man to do is never contrary to that man's established character.

But of those who believe, what is the difference between them and those that do not believe?

It cannot be that one was simply more spiritually astute, or one was more deserving as all men have sinned, and are under condemnation. So then the difference must be that God does something to make that man differ.

Here is an example from Scripture-
Joh 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
Joh 5:3 [b]In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.[/b]

Now let's say that these represent mankind. All of these are unable to help thamselves out of their condition, none of these would be better than another as they are all handicapped.

Now-
Joh 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.

This certain man is one of the handicapped group.

Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, [b]Wilt thou be made whole?[/b]

Notice this man did not go after Christ, but rather Christ went to him. Why him out of all the others when all of them were equally doomed?

Joh 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

Notice the man's first reaction is to the natural, "I have no man", the natural ability was completely exhausted. But then comes the command, and the ability to obey the command, "rise, take up thy bed, and walk."

Now again, what was the difference between this man, and the others? Why didn't Christ heal all of them? Certainly there was no difference in the man that made him more worthy of healing as they were all in the same state, so again who made the difference?

Great question roaringlamb. I've wrestled with that one for years.
And I'll be honest and just say that I don't know why one man responds to the gospel and another doesn't.
But yep, in that case, Jesus definitely made the difference: "Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case..."

Reply

My conscious pointed out sin but when I saw Jesus on the cross as the mercy of God poured out for us His polluted and helpless children, I gained a true sense of my guilt and sinfulness and surrender my rebellion and repented and I am developing a strong hatred of sin.
Eddie

But of those who believe, what is the difference between them and those that do not believe?

Now let's say that these represent mankind. All of these are unable to help thamselves out of their condition, none of these would be better than another as they are all handicapped.

Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

Now again, what was the difference between this man, and the others? Why didn't Christ heal all of them? Certainly there was no difference in the man that made him more worthy of healing as they were all in the same state, so again who made the difference?

but many scriptures do tell us that God desires all all men to saved.

thanks for the discussion guys, i appreciate all your posts. :-)

the difference is that when the Light of the world came shining, some chose to receive Him. the true Light gives light to EVERY MAN who comes into the world. (john 1:9)

But before your verse, we read this-
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and [b]the darkness comprehended it not.[/b]

Then we see this later in the same chapter-
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, [b]to them gave he power to become the sons of God,[/b] even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

Also in John 3 we read this about men and the light-
Joh 3:19 And [b]this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/b]

but God has given faith to all men (romans 12:3).

This is not talking about the unsaved brother, but rather the Christians in Rome-
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, [b]to every man that is among you,[/b] not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according [b]as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.[/b]
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

but many scriptures do tell us that God desires all all men to saved.

And usually they are taken out of context to make them say that, because if God wanted all men saved, they would be. Man's "free will" is not stronger than God.

Consider in this verse that God has already written those who would be saved in the book of life -
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, [b]whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,[/b] when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Now comparing this with this-
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of [b]the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/b]

We can see that something was completed before the foundation of the earth. Now we look for that phrase some more, and find this-
Eph 1:4 According as [b]he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,[/b] that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Consider this one too-
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: [b]although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.[/b]

It seems that God has elected those who would be saved, and now is applying that work to their hearts by the Holy Spirit. But the number is set, and only He knows what it is.

LoveHim and HopePurifies, may I share with you what was the key to my receiving the doctrines of grace, as RoaringLamb puts them?

I finally was made to understand that:

1.) All men really, truly do deserve to go to hell.
2.) Although men may freely come to a version of God, they would never, ever willing come to the true God, nor come on His terms, unless He changed them.
3.) God has chosen to give *grace* to some, without any inclusion of their merits, and will punish the others fairly.

The whole of the scriptures fall together with that understanding.

If God loves the Pygmy in Africa in the same way that He loves the people of Azotus (Acts 8) He could certainly transport a disciple there, but He doesn't. That is in part because they are damnable sinners and God has chosen to leave many people as examples of just wrath. To others, grace is shown.

No one has ever deserved to be saved.

Amen, and love.

can someone of you who believe that God treats people different explain how God can command me not to do so, and if i do that is SIN. But God can do that himself, To me that is saying it is ok for God to do this sin but not for me.

James 2:9 [b]But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin[/b], and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

How can God transgress His law and still be righteous? he cant....

he says dont have respect of persons,

strong's
4380 proswpolhpte,w prosopolepteo {pros-o-pol-ape-teh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to respect the person (i.e. the external condition of man) 2) to have respect of persons, discriminate

Fribergs Lexicon 23588 proswpolhmpte,w (or proswpolhpte,w) show partiality or favoritism, treat one person better than another

to favor an individual, i.e show partiality :-have respect of persons is SIN....

then how can God do this when he only allow some people to repent? how can he favor a small group of people, are thease people better then the rest? God forbid we should think in such a way! we are all filthy sinners.

John 7:37 ¶ In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, [b]If any man[/b] thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

i just dont get this partiality , why does he only want to enable a small group to be saved? does he not want all to be saved? of course he does. The bible is clear that Gods will is for all people to be saved. Should he not then make a way for them to be? of course he has.

Does all men accept Gods way and come to HIM in [b]true repantance[/b]? no they dont....

i think the two first pages of this thread is full of scriptures that many just ignore, or explain away that they meen something else, we have to look at all scriptures. Not try and make scriptures try and "fit" a sertain doctrine or a denominations view of them. I can understand why so many hold this view, and i have a very limited understanding of these things. But we have to be careful ,

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

theopenlife wrote:
LoveHim and HopePurifies, may I share with you what was the key to my receiving the doctrines of grace, as RoaringLamb puts them?

I finally was made to understand that:

1.) All men really, truly do deserve to go to hell.
2.) Although men may freely come to a version of God, they would never, ever willing come to the true God, nor come on His terms, unless He changed them.
3.) God has chosen to give *grace* to some, without any inclusion of their merits, and will punish the others fairly.

The whole of the scriptures fall together with that understanding.

If God loves the Pygmy in Africa in the same way that He loves the people of Azotus (Acts 8) He could certainly transport a disciple there, but He doesn't. That is in part because they are damnable sinners and God has chosen to leave many people as examples of just wrath. To others, grace is shown.

No one has ever deserved to be saved.

Amen, and love.

Very well put.

Lazarus, God bless you brother. I think maybe you're overlooking the Bible's teaching about "original sin". When Adam sinned we died in Adam. We are dead in sins now and that is why we cannot obey God's commands without God's graceful intervention. The impossible commandments (not that they are impossible to keep outwardly) are not unjust but they are the means of waking us up to the reality of our need for Christ. "By the law came the knowledge of sin."

This is not talking about the unsaved brother, but rather the Christians in Rome-

And usually they are taken out of context to make them say that, because if God wanted all men saved, they would be. Man's "free will" is not stronger than God.

because if God wanted all men saved, they would be.

the word tells us that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Him. that He is the Savior of all me, especially those that believe.

God is sovereign enough to do whatever He desires and He has in His sovereignty allowed man to accept or reject His Son Jesus.

roaringlamb, please allow to explain some of the verses you mentioned:

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, [b]whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world[/b], when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

In other words, their names have not been written in the book of life from (since) the foundation of the world. Their names were not there to begin with (no one's name was) and their names are not there now (they haven't turned to God).
This says nothing about God not wanting them saved.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the [b]Lamb slain from the foundation [/b]of the world.

When man fell it was set in stone that Christ would die. Therefore the Lamb was slain from (since) the foundation of the world.
This says nothing about God choosing some men and not others.

Eph 1:4 According as [b]he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world[/b], that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Amen! God has chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world! God has ordained that those who are in Christ will be saved! They are the elect, the chosen of God - those who repent and believe in Christ! Which any man may do and become the chosen elect of God!
Once more, this says nothing about God choosing certain individuals.

I hope this sheds some light on the true meaning of this blessed scriptures.

Matt

roaringlamb wrote:
Now again, what was the difference between this man, and the others? [b]Why didn't Christ heal all of them?[/b] Certainly there was no difference in the man that made him more worthy of healing as they were all in the same state, so again who made the difference?

Brother roaringlamb, this was answered on the third page of this thread. So please don't ignore the Scriptures, I would present the answer again (and please don't try the Word of God to fit in your doctrine by giving [i]you[/i] interpretation to it, that could be very dangerous thing, I am seeing you are doing this many times, ignoring the other Scriptures or giving them interpretation that can fit your doctrine. Let us be honest brother, let us seek the Word of God with honest heart, not through men's doctrine. Let the Scripture speak itself, these are simple words, enough simple for unlearned and for doctors):

Mar 6:5 And [b]he could there do no mighty work,[/b] save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Mar 6:6 [b]And he marvelled [u]because of their unbelief.[/u][/b] And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, [b]Thy faith hath saved thee;[/b] go in peace.

Luke 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: [b]thy faith hath made thee whole;[/b] go in peace.

Luke 17:19 And he said unto him, [b]Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.[/b]

Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, [b]Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.[/b]
Luke 18:43 And [b]immediately[/b] he received his sight, and followed him,

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, [b]Because of your unbelief:[/b] for verily I say unto you, [b]If ye have faith[/b] as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

1.) All men really, truly do deserve to go to hell.

2.) Although men may freely come to a version of God, they would never, ever willing come to the true God, nor come on His terms, unless He changed them

3.) God has chosen to give *grace* to some, without any inclusion of their merits, and will punish the others fairly.

If God loves the Pygmy in Africa in the same way that He loves the people of Azotus (Acts 8) He could certainly transport a disciple there, but He doesn't. That is in part because they are damnable sinners and God has chosen to leave many people as examples of just wrath. To others, grace is shown.

No one has ever deserved to be saved.

Let us be honest brother, let us seek the Word of God with honest heart, not through men's doctrine. Let the Scripture speak itself, these are simple words, enough simple for unlearned and for doctors):

This what I am doing. In the instances where there was faith, it is based upon revelation of who Christ is, and "received". Whereas in the cases where Christ marvels because of unbelief, the revelation is rejected.

Why do some believe and others do not?

What makes a man differ?
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Is there something in one man that is not in another? or does God and God alone make a man differ from another?

If you say that somehow you were more fit to be saved than another, then you are saying you "merited" salvation because of something in you. Some inherent goodness that you possesed so that God had to save you.

But if we say this is not true, then who made you to differ? Why do you believe while millions do not?

If man is so rational and able, why aren't all men saved? Or could it be that the wind blows where it will, and God gives life to whom He will?

But God can do that himself, To me that is saying it is ok for God to do this sin but not for me.

Brother the only answer I can give is that we are not God. Our favoritism is based upon selfish motives, and flawed by our fallen state.

God however is perfect, and can do whatsoever He wills-
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

How can God transgress His law and still be righteous? he cant....

Brother have you ever thought about why there is sin? In God's decree, sin was planned. It had to be in order for Christ to come into the world. God could have never allowed sin to permeate mankind, but He did.

I don't know any answer except what Christ said-
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

men can choose :-) thats why some are saved and some are not, you can choose to believe.

I can choose to believe if i sit down on that chair it will hold up, i can also choose nooo, that chair dont look like a chair that i would be comfortable sitting in, so i say no.

we can choose to come to Christ, otherwise it would just be stupid for Paul to run around and preach and try and convince people to believe on the messiah

the following is an excerpt from this [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18234&forum=34]article[/url]
by David servant. I only posted the first chapter, if anyone wants to ill post the rest also.

" If man has nothing to do with his repentance because the ability to repent is God’s gift, then why did Paul so often reason with the Jews from the Scriptures to prove that Jesus was the Messiah (e.g., see Acts 17:2-4)? Why did he attempt to “persuade men” (2 Cor. 5:11) and beg people to be “reconciled to God”? (2 Cor. 5:20). Why do we read in Acts 28:24 (as Paul reasoned with the Jews about Jesus), “And some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe” (emphasis added)? Why did Paul write, “I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some” (1 Cor. 9:22, emphasis added)? Why did he write that the Jews hindered him from “speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved (1 Thes. 2:16, emphasis added)? "

I contend that the GUILT of SINNERS is because of their ABILITY to OBEY God, yet their REFUSAL to do what God REASONABLY requires of them. Requiring the impossible is unreasonable. And there can be no guilt in failure to do the impossible.

I'd like your feedback on this-
4. PELAGIANISM [i](Phil Johnson-author)[/i]
�� The next great heresy in the church was Pelagianism. This error returned to the issue of soteriology.
It is a fact of history that every major error that has ever assaulted the Christian faith fits under one or both of two categories: they are either Christological or soteriological. Other forms of error have arisen, but all the truly dangerous heresies have attacked on one or both of these two fronts.
�� That’s because heresy is most serious when it results in a different gospel or a different christ. The true church has always recognized that those who worship a false christ or preach a false gospel are not true Christians (Galatians 1:8–9; 2 John 10–11). It is as simple as that.
�� Pelagianism represented a different gospel of the most sinister kind. The first major proponent and the man who lent his name to this doctrine was Pelagius. His main opponent was Augustine.
�� The conflict between Pelagius and Augustine involved some of the very same issues Calvinists and Arminians argue over, and the history of this heresy shows how vitally important those issues are.
�� Pelagius was motivated by a concern to elevate human free will, because he was (wrongly)
convinced that was the only way to preserve human responsibility. Augustine defended the
sovereignty of God, because he (rightly) knew that was the only way to preserve the centrality of divine grace in salvation.
�� Probably the most notable aspect of Pelagianism is its denial of original sin. The Pelagians denied that Adam’s sin resulted in any guilt or corruption to the rest of the human race. Pelagius believed that the human will must be free from all fetters or else people are not responsible for what they do.
Pelagianism insists that if people are born sinners by nature—if sin is something we inherit—it would be unjust for God to hold individual sinners responsible for their sin.
�� Pelagianism therefore said the human will must be totally free—inclined to neither good nor evil—or else our choices cannot be free. And if our choices are not free, then we cannot be held responsible for what we do.
�� Pelagianism inevitably results in the purest form of works-salvation. Deny the fallenness of
humanity, and you have in effect denied the need for divine grace.
�� Augustine saw this problem from the very outset, and he responded to the Pelagians by
demonstrating from Scripture that the human will is not free in the sense Pelagianism taught; our
wills are hopelessly bound by sin (Romans 8:7–8). Sinners are utterly helpless to change for the better apart from the working of divine grace in their hearts (Jeremiah 13:23).
�� The Council of Ephesus in 431 condemned Pelagianism as utterly heretical. But as is true with everyone of the major heresies we are discussing, the ruling of a council was not enough to end the threat
of this false doctrine. Pelagianizing influences continued for the next hundred years. There emerged a modified Pelagianism, known as semi-pelagianism—which is virtually identical to modern Arminianism—and that doctrine was condemned by the Council of Orange in 529.
�� Still, Pelagianizing influences continued to assault the church. By the sixteenth century, the Roman Catholic Council of Trent adopted a soteriology that is in effect semi-Pelagian.
�� In the Protestant Reformation, it was the Reformers who sided with Augustine in affirming the sovereignty of God, the necessity of divine grace, and the utter inability of fallen man to contribute to his own salvation. Roman Catholicism, especially from the Council of Tent on, has taught a kind of watered-down semi-Pelagianism.
�� Pelagian and semi-Pelagian influences have affected Protestantism, too, and continue to do so today.

He has given light to all men. enough light in our conscience and in creation (rom 1 and 2) for one to come to God, but many love darkness and not the light.

It's not many, but all. All men love the darkness, and only those who have their eyes opened will come out of it.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of [b]him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:[/b]

Man would never know a difference if it were not for God intervening upon their heart. They would go on and on in their sin, and would be lost.

There is no divine spark of life that makes man suddenly realize he is need of salvation. Any desire to be saved comes from the Holy Spirit. Many, myself included(for a time) attribute their desire to be saved to themselves, because they do not understand how deeply sin has corrupted man. It is the utmost grace of God that He would save us, but it is even greater grace that He would allow us to believe we had anything to do with it.

Eventually though one must realize that this is borderline idolatry, and complete narcissism(self love). As man loves the idea that he had something to do or add to his salvation. Man loves to boast of his goodness, and worthiness, and this is why men like Spurgeon, and Owen said that Arminianism, and Pelagianism were doctrines that men love, because they can maintain their idol of self even in something so glorious as salvation.

But-
[b]Salvation is of the LORD.[/b]Jonah 2:9

If He did not move first, none would be saved as none seek Him. If God had not sent His Son, there would be no way of salvation at all. So how much do we have to do with this?

" If man has nothing to do with his repentance because the ability to repent is God’s gift

Man cannot repent apart from the work of the Holy Spirit-
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This does not negate man's responsibility to repent and believe the Gospel. Again it is like the people Jesus would tell to "rise, take up thy bed, and walk", or "stretch forth thy hand".

The natural man would say, "how cruel to command a man to something he cannot do!"

But what they do not factor into the equation is the work of the Spirit. If we only look at the commands from man's perspective, then yes it seems impossoble, but what is impossible with men is possible with God, and He gives life through the new birth.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [/b]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see(discern, understand) the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Jn 5:1 [b]Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:[/b] and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

What is interesting is that in these passages that speak of the new birth, man is never the one "doing" something, but rather, God is the one doing, or better yet birthing in man.

If in fact we follow the line of thought that says, "it is unfair for God to command what man cannot do", then how unfair would it be for God to command new birth? Man cannot re-birth himself, and this is what brought great confusion to Nicodemas, and why he said, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
(John 3:4)

Jesus points him to the work of the Spirit-
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So now the question becomes, how much did I have to do with my first birth? Did I choose my parents? when I would be born?

Or is it as Paul says-
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Or as the Lord speaks to Jeremiah-
Jer 1:5 [b]Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,[/b] and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Much to ponder, and thankfully by His grace, one day we shall see Him!

How does you as a calvanist witness to people? :-) im trying to figure it out, when you know you cant say anything to affect them. must be discuraging to preach when you know everything you preach cant do anything for them anyway, and even if you dident preach they would still be saved becuse God choosen them in his big heavenly lottery.

i might be getting it wrong but this is what it seems calvanism is all about

Brother, I preach the same as Paul, I preach Christ and Him crucified.

Sharing with a person is glorious simply because I know that God will do His work in His way. I am commanded as are all Christians to preach the Gospel to every creature.

The Gospel though is not understood by natural men, and we cannot assume that they will understand it, nor want to hear it. i wouldn't tell a person that Jesus died for them simply because that may not be true, but I would tell them that Christ died to save sinners, and if you are convicted of your sin, then He has shed His blood to cover those sins.

God must give life to the unregenerate heart before they can believe, or be truly convicted of sin. What I mean by truly convicted is that they see their sin as against God alone. Too many people feel guilt becasue their life is not as they had hoped, or because they have done wrong to their fellow man, but they must see their sin against the very God who gave them life.

When this conviction comes, it is safe to say that the Spirit has worked.

And yes I would preach, "whosoever will may come.." understanding that man will not want to come unless the Spirit is at work.

But the greatest difference is that I can assure someone of Christ's great work for them once they come to faith. I can tell them they have ben justified by His grace, and that Christ lives to make intercession for them, and that by His stripes we are healed. I can tell them this because I realize the greatness of Christ's work, and of Christ's merit before the Father. I can tell them this because they are now righteous and hidden in Christ, united to Him by His Spirit and made bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh.

Thus the newborn starts with a great perspective on Christ, and looks away from themself for any righteousness, and pleads the merits of Christ as the they are buffeted and conformed to His image.

Isn't this the Gospel?

Why do some believe and others do not?

What makes a man differ?
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

If you say that somehow you were more fit to be saved than another, then you are saying you "merited" salvation because of something in you. Some inherent goodness that you possesed so that God had to save you.

If man is so rational and able, why aren't all men saved?

Or could it be that the wind blows where it will, and God gives life to whom He will?

i really don't see how you can have it both ways.

Probably the most notable aspect of Pelagianism is its denial of original sin. The Pelagians denied that Adam’s sin resulted in any guilt or corruption to the rest of the human race. Pelagius believed that the human will must be free from all fetters or else people are not responsible for what they do.

Deny the fallenness of
humanity, and you have in effect denied the need for divine grace.

In the Protestant Reformation, it was the Reformers who sided with Augustine in affirming the sovereignty of God, the necessity of divine grace, and the utter inability of fallen man to contribute to his own salvation

eph 2:8-9 "for by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, not of WORKS, lest anyone should boast.

we're saved by placing the faith that He has given us in Him and by His grace He saves us and fills us with His Spirit. this is not a work, it is biblical faith.

This was manily for Jesse, as much of what he believes stems from this stream.

I apologize for not being clearer.

Thank you for the iron sharpening :-D

Eventually though one must realize that this is borderline idolatry, and complete narcissism(self love). As man loves the idea that he had something to do or add to his salvation. Man loves to boast of his goodness, and worthiness, and this is why men like Spurgeon, and Owen said that Arminianism, and Pelagianism were doctrines that men love, because they can maintain their idol of self even in something so glorious as salvation.

If He did not move first, none would be saved as none seek Him. If God had not sent His Son, there would be no way of salvation at all. So how much do we have to do with this?

1 john 2:2 "and He Himself is the propitition for our sins, and not for ours only BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD".

Salvation is of the LORD.Jonah 2:9

by roaringlamb on 2007/7/24 12:14:07

This was manily for Jesse, as much of what he believes stems from this stream.

I apologize for not being clearer.

Thank you for the iron sharpening

God gave us freewill to choose between right and wrong, good and evil. Without freewill we can have no moral character and could not be morally accountable. But because we have the power of contrary choice we are accountable for all the sinful choices we make.

God does want everyone to be saved and Jesus Christ did die for the whole world. But we must choose the light or the darkness, choose to yield to the Holy Spirit or to resist the Holy Spirit, to repent and believe the gospel or to remain in impenitence and unbelief. It is our choice.

The true doctrine of grace is that God offers grace to all men, but they must voluntarily repent and believe. Brute force cannot change a man's heart. Man must voluntarily repent and believe, voluntarily choose to love God and neighbor. A robot, puppet, or machine cannot truly love, only a freewill individual can. Righteousness (love) and sin (selfishness) are freewill choices.