Justified by works

The way I read it in my bible. I am justified by faith in the blood of Jesus alone. Good Works are just a symptom of a true faith. If I truely believe something I will act accordingly. my works are not for justification they are because I love Jesus and I care about his reputation more than my own.Good works are important because according to 2 Cor 5:20 we are ambassadors for Christ. His representitives on the earth.

A true God given justification will produce faith, love, and other works.

Notice the contrast that James uses.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: [b]the devils also believe, and tremble.[/b]

Now the demons will never be justified, though they believe that Christ is the Son of God. They do not have a justifying faith.

Of course, when the Spirit of God opens the heart of a person to believe the Gospel, faith is a fruit of that, as is repentance, and other works. you will not see these works from demons, thus again we see that their faith is enough to make them only tremble, but they will not submit to God's rule(nor can they).

Whitestone42 wrote:
The way I read it in my bible. I am justified by faith in the blood of Jesus alone. Good Works are just a symptom of a true faith. If I truely believe something I will act accordingly. my works are not for justification they are because I love Jesus and I care about his reputation more than my own. Good works are important because according to 2 Cor 5:20 we are ambassadors for Christ. His representitives on the earth.

Example:
One doesn't work to get a job; one works because one has a job. You don't work to be saved; you work because you are saved.

Therefore is it by faith alone, but faith has works.

I understand your remark, but have one comment :-)

This might be minor, but how can you say that justification is [u]by faith alone[/u] when the scripture [u]explicitly[/u] says otherwise: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and [u]not by faith only[/u]." (James 2:24) and also "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, [u]being alone[/u]." (James 2:17)

There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Even if what your saying about faith and works is true, why say one thing when the scripture says another?

Nile

There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

What work did this man do, aside from seeing his need of God's mercy?

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And [b]by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.[/b]

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:2 [b]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.[/b]
Rom 4:3 [b]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/b]

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I think these seem pretty clear.

In my view the faith given by God to produce faith, produces works.

Here's some more-

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:5 But [b]to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/b]

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, [b]foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,[/b] preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

And of course one the key verses in Martin Luther's conversion
Rom 1:17 For therein(in the Gospel) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, [b]The just shall live by faith.[/b]

Nile wrote:

Therefore is it by faith alone, but faith has works.

I understand your remark, but have one comment :-)

This might be minor, but how can you say that justification is [u]by faith alone[/u] when the scripture [u]explicitly[/u] says otherwise: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and [u]not by faith only[/u]." (James 2:24) and also "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, [u]being alone[/u]." (James 2:17)

There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Even if what your saying about faith and works is true, why say one thing when the scripture says another?

Faith + [b]?[/b] = Salvation

What did the Thief on the cross have to add to his faith in order to secure his place in Paradise?

[b]Gal 3:22[/b] [color=990000]But the Scripture locked up all under sin, [b]that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing.[/color]
Gal 3:26[/b] [color=990000]for you are all sons of God through [b]faith in Christ Jesus[/b].[/color]
If there was more, Paul would have definatly said so.

However, the work of faith is love:
[b]Gal 5:6[/b] [color=990000]For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but [b]faith working through love.[/b][/color]
Compare:
[b]James 2:15-16[/b] [color=990000]But if a brother or a sister is naked and may be lacking in daily food,
[b]:16[/b] and any one of you say to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but does not give them the things the body needs, what is the benefit?[/color]
Compare:
[b]1Johnn 3:17[/b] Whoever has the means of life of the world, and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his heart of compassion from him, [b]how does the love of God abide in him[/b]?[/color]
Therefore, if one does not have love, their faith is dead, because love is the work of faith.
[b]1Corinth 13:2-3[/b] [color=990000] And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, [b]I am nothing.
:3[/b] And if ever I should be morselling out all my possessions, and if I should be giving up my body, that I should be boasting, yet may have no love, [b]in nothing do I benefit[/b].[/color]

I am nothing & in nothing do I benefit.

[u]Barnes[/u] Commentary puts this as:
[i][b]It profiteth me nothing[/b] - If there is no true piety, there can be no benefit in this to my soul. It will not save me. If I have no true love to God, I must perish, after all. “Love,” therefore, is more valuable and precious than all these endowments. Nothing can supply its place; nothing can be connected with salvation without it.
[b]I am nothing[/b] - All would be of no value. it would not save me. I should still be an unredeemed, unpardoned sinner. I should do good to no one; I should answer none of the great purposes which God has designed; I should not by all this secure my salvation. All would be in vain in regard to the great purpose of my existence. None of these things could be placed before God as a ground of acceptance in the Day of Judgment. Unless I should have love, I should still be lost. A somewhat similar idea is expressed by the Saviour, in regard to the Day of Judgment, in [b]Mat7:22-23[/b] [color=990000]“Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”[/color][/i]

Please finish the equation...

Faith + ? = Salvation

What did the Thief on the cross have to add to his faith in order to secure his place in Paradise?

I'll the finish the equation...but first I'd like to know your response to my questions:

There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Even if what your saying about faith and works is true, why say one thing when the scripture says another?

Thanks,
Nile

See, this is the difference between a God given faith in which that person will persevere in faith and good works, and that faith that we see much of in today's church which is like what Jesus said about those who hear the word, and rejoice, but fall away in trials.

The saving faith given by God will produce works, as there is no true justification apart from sanctification(process of being formed into the image of Christ).

Dear saints

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

To be Justified means to be proven to be Right. This is a consequence of Salvation. We are Saved and therefore proven to be Right by God by our acts, hence we are Justified by our works. Faith is necessary for Salvation and it is how we are Saved but thereafter the issue of Justification manifests itself in works which prove we are Right with God. And so we can say as James did that Abraham was Justified by works when he went to sacrifice Isaac. And we can also say with Paul that we are not Justified by works only but by Faith. The Faith must precede such that we are then Saved and thereafter we are Justified. The Pharisees did works but were not Justified because they didn't have the Faith required to be Saved so their acts were dead works.

Then the publican who acknowledged his sin was Justified (shown to be right with God) before GOd because he saw what he really was before GOd where the Pharisee didn't.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Thanks for the post IRONMAN, you explained it well and you also helped me see some things I hadn't seen before.

:-)
Nile

Nile wrote:
I'll the finish the equation...but first I'd like to know your response to my questions:
-------------------------------------------------

I understand your remark, but have one comment :-)

This might be minor, but how can you say that justification is [u]by faith alone[/u] when the scripture [u]explicitly[/u] says otherwise: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and [u]not by faith only[/u]." (James 2:24) and also "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, [u]being alone[/u]." (James 2:17)

There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Even if what your saying about faith and works is true, why say one thing when the scripture says another?

[b]Gal 3:22[/b] [color=990000]But the Scripture locked up all under sin, [b]that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing.[/color]
Gal 3:26[/b] [color=990000]for you are all sons of God through [b]faith in Christ Jesus[/b].[/color]
If there was more, Paul would have definatly said so.

Bu I missed on here:
[b]Gal 2:16[/b] [color=990000]having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, [b]except alone through faith in Christ Jesus[/b], we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith in Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified.[/color]

This "except alone through faith in Christ Jesus"
is in Greek:
εαν
except

μη
expresses an absolute denial
(nothing els but)

δια
through

πιστεως
faith

ιησου
Jesus

χριστου
Christ

Your turn :)

"We are justified by faith alone, apart from any works."
True or false?

If there was more, Paul would have definatly said so.

Indeed, so he did. Here are two examples:

Romans 2:6-7

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by [u]patient continuance in well doing[/u] seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but [u]the doers of the law shall be justified[/u].

In answer to your previous questions, as far as I can discern...

Faith = Belief + Obedience = Salvation From Sin

We are not justified by faith alone because true faith is more than mere belief: true faith is belief and obedience. Even the demons "have faith" in God, but their faith has no obedience.

The thief on the cross was justified because he had true faith. Both thieves besides Jesus "believed" He was the Messiah, the Christ, but only one thief moved past mere belief to true faith, asking in humility that Jesus remember him when He enters into His kingdom.

Thanks for the questions, I hope I've explained some.

The grace of God unto godliness be with us,
Nile

Brother, I don't believe that verse 13 has anything to do with what we are discussing here, as Paul was using this to show that the Law cannot save. As in those that boast of the Law, as this section is to the self righteous Jew, must keep every bit of the Law.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Note here later in the chapter
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, [b]if thou keep the law:[/b] but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

That is why in Chapter 3, Paul begins to paint the universal guilt of all Jew and Gentile alike, so that none could boast of anything. Then in Chapters 4 & 5, Paul lays out the justification God grants through and by faith in Christ.

And in answer to your question, yes a man is justified by faith without works. But that faith will work if it is a true justification.

“Who went about doing good.”
— Acts 10:38

Few words, but yet an exquisite miniature of the Lord Jesus Christ. There are not many touches, but they are the strokes of a master’s pencil. Of the Saviour and only of the Saviour is it true in the fullest, broadest, and most unqualified sense. “He went about doing good.” From this description it is evident that he did good personally. The evangelists constantly tell us that he touched the leper with his own finger, that he anointed the eyes of the blind, and that in cases where he was asked to speak the word only at a distance, he did not usually comply, but went himself to the sick bed, and there personally wrought the cure. A lesson to us, if we would do good, to do it ourselves. Give alms with your own hand; a kind look, or word, will enhance the value of the gift. Speak to a friend about his soul; your loving appeal will have more influence than a whole library of tracts. Our Lord’s mode of doing good sets forth his incessant activity! He did not only the good which came close to hand, but he “went about” on his errands of mercy. Throughout the whole land of Judea there was scarcely a village or a hamlet which was not gladdened by the sight of him. How this reproves the creeping, loitering manner, in which many professors serve the Lord. Let us gird up the loins of our mind, and be not weary in well doing. Does not the text imply that Jesus Christ went out of his way to do good? “He went about doing good.” He was never deterred by danger or difficulty. He sought out the objects of his gracious intentions. So must we. If old plans will not answer, we must try new ones, for fresh experiments sometimes achieve more than regular methods. Christ’s perseverance, and the unity of his purpose, are also hinted at, and the practical application of the subject may be summed up in the words, “He hath left us an example that we should follow in his steps.”

Spurgeon, C. H.

Christ justified us by His works because we could not justify ourselves by the works of the Law. We died to the Law and sin on the Cross.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Only the works of the Faith of Jesus Christ are now good works, and fruit unto the Father.

Galatians 2:16-19 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Works cannot make us perfect unless it is the Christ in us that is doing the works through us.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Christ and Christ alone is our perfection, nothing we do can make us perfect, only the Christ in you will make us perfect. How do we become perfect?

Colossians 3:1-17 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, He is the only One through the Faith He gives us that can do the Greater works that He has already done.

Again we are dead and Christ is alive in us.
If we take over by works we are going right back to our old husband, Satan. Even Paul understood this and said that Christ was the only one that could do the work in him. Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Philippians 4:7-13 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. It is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and Jesus alone the Is in us.

The war is in our minds, "think on these things", not in our works, or obedience, but His works and His obedience in us and through us as us.

In Christ: Phillip

I will agree if a man says "saving faith is always submissive faith" but I will weep "heretic" if someone says that "salvation is by faith [b]and[/b] submitting". This is the difference.

Agreed. If it is not submissive, it is not faith.

It is of the nature of true faith that it can never remain 'alone'. Paul writes

[color=0033FF] And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed and therefore I spoke,” we also believe and therefore speak, (2Corinthians 4:13 NKJV)[/color]

It is that 'therefore' that identifies true faith. True faith always has a 'therefore'; a consequence. To Timothy he writes of 'genuine faith'...

[color=0033FF]when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also. (2Timothy 1:5 NKJV)[/color]

The word for 'genuine' is literally 'without hypocrisy'; the word hypocrit being the Greek word for actor. Paul is referring, indirectly, to 'fake' faith' and the designation 'fake' or implies that there are at least two kinds of faith "genuine' and 'fake'.

This is a sobering reality that there is a 'kind' of faith upon which God cannot build and which he does not trust.

[color=0033FF] Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many [u]believed[/u] in His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not [u]commit[/u] Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man. (John 2:23-25 NKJV)[/color]

The word for 'believe', pisteuO, is translated here by both 'believe' and 'commit'. It is a useful biblical definition to realised that 'belief without commitment' is not 'genuine faith without hypocrisy'. The best general, all purpose, word for a translation might be 'trust'. They trusted him, but only because of the manifested power. Christ cannot trust that kind of 'trust'. It is an inadequate foundation upon which to build his work.

bro Chiefisiners

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

works have much to do with Justification, in fact it is works which are done in Faith which Justify a man before God. It seems you have juxtaposed Justification onto Salvation. Salvation is by Faith as pointed out in the scripture you mentioned. However, Justification has to do with Faith which produces works. Justification is not Salvation but Justification is a consequence of Salvation. When one is Saved, He is Justified also which means (Justified that is) to be shown to be right before God. For us to be shown we are Right before God involves some sort of evidence, that is doing the works which God has prepared for us. If you read in the epistle of James, he says that Abraham was justified when he offered Isaac as a sacrifice. that means that the Faith of Abraham, and Abraham himself was proven to be Right before God by offering his son. The evidence of His Faith was that sacrifice. bro James also says that Faith without works is dead which means one can't have Faith without works, there must be evidence of Faith.

from James 2

[b]14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. F7 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without F8 thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit F9 is dead, so faith without works is dead also. [/b]

i hope that clears up the issue of Justification.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus Name. AMEN.

Someone said it is not faith alone that saves you, but you must add works to faith to procure your own salvation and to show others what kind of faith you have. I believe that came form a man called James. This James was a died in the wool Jew, writing to Jews in Israel. This James who was called the bishop of Jerusalem had his deep roots in the Law of Moses, this law was governed by works and if anyone would commingle law and grace it would be James. Just a thought for some of James sayings that conflict with the Christ revelated Gospel that was given to Paul and he Paul given permission to call it his Gospel to fulfill the Word of God.

Justification by Faith, absolutely, it is Christ who has been made our justification, and it is his faith that saves us to justification in Him. Nothing we did, do or will do can change this birth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. It is only Christ that give saving Faith, it is His Faith given to the born again by the Father's Seed in the new creation race of people that The Father now calls "the son's of God".

Is it truly faith that justifies? Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds (works) of the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Even more::::::? Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Cr 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Then two by James?: Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"Not before God".

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

A true Student of Moses speaking.

I choose to listen to Paul who was given the Final Gospel by Christ Himself and speaking to all the churches in all the land he preached this gospel, Jesus Christ is our Faith and our Justification, and that will never change, even throughout all eternity, He being first Born among many son's and when it is finished He will return all authority and every son to the Father that God may be all in all.

Justification by Faith and nothing else, you choose whom you would believe.

I choose to believe Paul and see completely where James is coming from and the power of the Holy Spirit separating the old gospel of Moses form the Final Gospel of Paul given by Christ Himself.

In Christ: Phillip

chiefosiners wrote:
"Faith without works is dead." Sure! The same way we can have dead churches. The people are still saved but their faith is dead.

If their faith is dead, are not they dead also?

PreachParsly,

Yes. Although I know you are already knew the answer to that.

Murray

Chiefosinners,

It is not that we are justified by works alone. The works just prove that the faith is alive. It is all faith that we are saved by. I know it sounds like I am contradicting myself. But the word says "Faith without works is dead".

Murray

bro Phillip
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

this is not a matter of either or but it is both. James is reiterating what Christ said when He said if we Love Him, we would follow His Commandments. The following of the Commandments is the Justification, it is to be shown to be Right (Saved) before God. The works are Evidence of Salvation but not Salvation itself. We are Justified by works, or shown to be Right before God by what we do. Now the ability to do these works comes from the Throne of God hence the scripture which speaks of the predestination, justification all being done by God.

We are not exempted from following the Laws of God, in fact we are Exhorted to do so. To be sure, the Law is not the means of Salvation, but to follow it in Faith is to be Justified before God. The fact that bro James said what he did under the Inspiration of Holy Spirit and Paul said what he was given to say says that the 2 ideas fit together Perfectly. they are not mutually exclusive, they are One in God for the Fulfilment of the Eternal Purpose. We are Saved by Christ by having Faith, we are Justified by the works we do (shown to be Right before God) which God Himself has Prepared in advance for us.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Where did Paul say this?

Is our salvation by our works?

No we are saved by Grace. This Grace is something we cannot work for. How can you work for Grace? This Grace is known by Faith, that is The Faith of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit teach us, John 14,15,15, 7 times spoken by Jesus Christ, confirming The Holy Spirit is our Teacher of this Grace by the only Faith that completely understands Grace.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

God is the Grace initiator by Jesus Christ born again in the believer. Jesus Christ is the Faith initiator to good works. This is salvation and that not of ourselves. Works is completely out of this picture. When we are saved by Grace through the Faith of Jesus Christ then our works will show that faith, because the works are now the works of the Faith giver Himself, Jesus Christ.
If we don't know this, we will parish, for, my people parish and are "destroyed for the lack of knowledge."

We must rightly divide works of salvation and works of the Faith that is in us by Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Who ordains our good works? How are these good works created in us? Who's workmanship are we?
Of course works will show the Faith of Jesus Christ that is in us. So James by the Holy Spirit completely agrees with Paul. Even completely not understanding it, as it is for us even now.

But as for me, I will trust the Faith and works of Jesus Christ in me to show you my faith by my works. Me and my house will serve the One that gives me the faith to serve Him, these are my works.

In Christ: Phillip

Chiefofsinners,

"go, and sin no more"
John 8:11

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins."
Hebrews 10:26

Murray

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Not in the spirit. God only see's us as the Christ that is in us. That is perfect. The flesh can sin, the Mind of Christ is the ability not to sin in the flesh, The Holy Spirit is the teacher that brings us to the Mind of Christ and in renewing our mind, we even can become in the flesh the righteousness of Christ that He has become in us. If we do sin in the flesh we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Only Righteousness the Father sees and "if we confess our sin God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us from all unrighteousness. God is not pleased by anything we do, God the Father is only pleased in what The Son is, has and will do. Justification comes and by the Christ in us that is what the Father sees'. I am crucified with Christ, I am buried with Christ, we are resurrected with Christ, we are righteous in Christ, we are justified in Christ, we have the wisdom of Christ, we are Sanctified in Christ. All else will be revealed by the Holy Spirit about this Christ that is in us. Even to that which we don't know, so the mind of Christ reveal all our justification and perfection to us.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So are you justified by Christ or not? If yes, before God we are no longer sinners because of Christ and Christ only.

In Christ: Phillip

Amen

bro Phillip
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

God is the Grace initiator by Jesus Christ born again in the believer. Jesus Christ is the Faith initiator to good works. This is salvation and that not of ourselves. Works is completely out of this picture. When we are saved by Grace through the Faith of Jesus Christ then our works will show that faith, because the works are now the works of the Faith giver Himself, Jesus Christ.

AMEN.

But as for me, I will trust the Faith and works of Jesus Christ in me to show you my faith by my works. Me and my house will serve the One that gives me the faith to serve Him, these are my works.

i touch and agree bro. Let it be as you have said. AMEN.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.

Romans 3-4-5 is THE expounding of this question. Actually the whole thing. Here is the highlights. bear with the font size, haven't got that all figured out yet

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.[/size][/b]

Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[b][size=large] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered....
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; [b][size=large]But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;[/size][/b][b][size=large]Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.[/size][/b][b][size=medium]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.[/size][/b]

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Who causes us to walk in Good Works? Is it not God Himself by the moving of the Spirit

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

How then can we say we are justified by works or boast in them.

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for {His} good pleasure.

Our works are a result of the infilling of the Spirit as a response to the heart belief that Jesus is Christ (savior) and Lord. He is in charge and so we choose to be submitted to His Spirits direction.

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

Lastly:
John ??
What are the works God requires?
"This is the work God requires: That you believe in the One He has sent

This has nothing to do with the works of salvation. This has nothing to do with Christians. The works we do are the works of Christ in us through us. We are going to be judged by Paul's gospel and what we have done with the Christ that God the Father has birthed in us.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This is for the unsaved.

Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those that are in Christ are already with Him.
They have been to the Judgement Seat of Christ for their rewards or lack therein.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In Christ: Phillip

We are save through Grace, by Faith, these are from God. Once we have been saved, then is when the works of that faith begin.

Ephesians 2:6-10 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Then comes the work. 1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Philippians 2:12-18 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all. For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.

Are these not works of faith. Will not these works show the faith we have been given and show the world that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in our life. These are the great works that are to be done in the name and power of Jesus Christ, even more that He did before the Cross.

How are we justified? By God's works. How do we show that justification? By the works of Christ in us, as us, through us and by us. These are the works that show our faith.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Righteousness: Strong's Greek Dictionary
1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

Sanctification: Strong's Greek Dictionary
38. hagiasmos
Search for G38 in KJVSL
agiasmoV hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos'
from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

Justification showing Sanctification works by Him being made in us, these works of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Greetings Dear saints in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

We are indeed Justified by our works. There is a difference between being Saved, that is only obtained by the Blood of Jesus, and being Justified, that is to be shown to be Right, or in Right Standing before God. our works prove that we are in Right Standing before God, that is we are Justified by our works.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

By a preponderance of the evidence:

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Cr 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We are justified, by His Grace, in the Spirit, by faith, by Christ, also by the faith of Christ, justified in the name of Christ Jesus, not justified by my self, by God Himself,
by the blood of Christ, by my sayings.

All my works are dirty rags and the only justification I have is the Justification of the works Christ does in me, These will show my faith which is the Faith of Jesus Christ, this also showing my works as His works. For my works have been Justified in Himself that is born again in me, by His own Spirit that is now my spirit. How are we to be Judged?

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

What is Paul's gospel?

Colossians 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"His working, which workfare in me mightily".
Not my works but His, these are the greater works that will be done that He speaks of.

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Do you believe on Jesus Christ?

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
All my works are dirty rags and the only justification

I don't know why any level headed Christian would say the the works that are done from faith are dirty rags.
Without works faith is dead.
The works that make a living faith are not dirty rags.

The works that make a living faith are not dirty rags.

Unfortunately, they are if they are used as a means to either earn favor with God, or justify us before God.

And the only reason they are acceptable to God is because of Christ and His mediation.

roaringlamb wrote:

The works that make a living faith are not dirty rags.

Unfortunately, they are if they are used as a means to either earn favor with God, or justify us before God.

So again, why whould any level headed Christian say the their works that are done from faith are dirty rags?

If you will read this carefully, you will see I have separated the Works of Christ and my works without Christ.
His works in me are the
only works that are pleasing to the Father.

Nothing I do aside from Christ is just that, Nothing.

"All my works are dirty rags and the only justification I have is the Justification of the works Christ does in me, These works will show my faith which is the Faith of Jesus Christ, this also showing my works as His works. For my works have been Justified in Himself that is born again in me, by His own Spirit that is now my spirit. How are we to be Judged"

All is of Christ, not me, all I can do is believe and Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

Then: Romans 12:2-3 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Who's Faith? Galatians 2:14-16 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

""but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ""

In Christ: Phillip

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? (((((For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.)))))

Romans 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

He knows every thought and every deed, so "let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus our Lord".

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

By His Grace are we saved, not of works lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In Christ: Phillip