The damaging effect harry potter has had on christians

To me it is amazing how many people even christians do not know the verse

Deuteronomy 18:9-14
9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect

Isa 8:19 - Show Context
And when they say to you, "Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter," should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?

In our book shops the witchcraft and other sections are getting bigger, even in the christian faith you get books.
To me the shock has not been the world take up of this phenomina but the church.
J K Rowlands is a self confessed witch, I think there was one commentator of her books a former witch said this a basic manual to start being a witch

2Ch 33:6 - Show Context
And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Gal 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It says in the sciptures in Galations that they shall not inherit the Kingdom of god. It is that plain or clear. This basically means that people who are into witchcraft and have not repented will go to hell
The biggest answer you get is "It does not affect me?" but it does.
This is the same answer with TV.
As christians do we not have to run away from this ?
I so long for purity and long for Jesus more and need prayer for both.
If we love Jesus will we not reject the works of the evil one?
Dom

Um, it's a book, it's fiction, it doesn't claim to be reality. There's a line here, but I want to make sure it's distinguished.

As the text you gave clearly shows, we're not supposed to turn to the magical arts, but only to God. But the bible never says, 'don't have an imagination or tell stories.'

These are stories, just like the Chronicles of Narnia or The Lord of the Rings which so many Christians love... and believe it or not these stories aren't going anywhere for a long time. So I suggest you become familiar with them and not combative, learn what is good in them and use them as bridging points to talk about the Gospel.

The seventh book (which I'm reading now) deals with the issues surrounding death. It doesn't support a single worldview in doing this. Use this opportunity to share with youth about your hope in the Gospel. If you're combative you've lost to chance to witness to them.

the difference between harry potter and the chronicles of narnia?

Is that the person writing the book is not openly a witch, as c s lewis was a christian and jrr tolken was a catholic. these stories by C S Lewis actually got me to read the bible. There are these verse about the bible. I have no problem with using your imagination as there are alot of symbols and images such as the tabernacle and the temple.

1Ti 1:4 - Show Context
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1Ti 4:7 - Show Context
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2Ti 4:4 - Show Context
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Tit 1:14 - Show Context
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

2Pe 1:16 - Show Context
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

I ask one question
If I have a cup of water and it is clean and pure
I say drink you are more then happy to do so
but if I put dirt in it and it goes down the water still looks clean and pure but is the water still clean?

Sometimes things look clean but are full of drit

in his love
charlene

or I could say here is a candy bar but you shouldn't eat it is not good for you. You might take the candy bar and eat it anyways. Thinking its just a little bad, but no real harm will be done to me.
But if I told you that the candy bar had posion in it, and would make you every sick.
You would stop eating the candy bar because you knew what was in it.

so if we truly see the posion in these things we know we must stay far away.

in his love charlene

We cannot simply ignore the effect that these books have on this generation, and must prayerfully consider how we can best use them to reach this generationl for Christ.

Reading Harry Potter has given me the opportunity to open up a lot to the youth at our church. Of course I have read it with discernment -but God can use a donkey he can certainly use Harry Potter.

As I've already stated, the seventh book deals primarily with the idea of death... but it doesn't ever state where people go when they die. Have you stopped to consider how rarely the youth of the generation stop to think about the bigger questions of life and death.

This generation is bombarded on every side by advertising campaigns and different entertainment options. they have so many choices to choose from, and Harry Potter is only one of a million. But all of these choices have a common thread, they work to distract this generation from questions about their creator and about Jesus.

Harry Potter is a rare chance to confront this lack of clarity in our culture about issues surrounding death. Where Harry Potter cannot give an answer, we can proclaim the Gospel resoundingly.

As Paul used the Unknown God in Athens, we must use things from this culture, even Harry Potter, in order to point this generation to Christ. We need to use this as an opportunity to broach the subject of heaven and hell, and the sake of an eternity of separation.

I dare say, that if we are wise and seek God's wisdom, Harry Potter could be an open door for many young people to find and know Jesus -the only person with the power to save!

By the way, according to interviews and her personal website, JK Rowling and her husband Kirk are both members of the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian). And her husband is active in Christian aid work.

Once again, before we go around slandering people we need to make sure to cite our sources.

Ian,

There was an article in Time Magazine titled "Who Dies in Harry Potter? God". This is the author speaking when asked who dies in the newest instalment of the series.

Let us not fellowship with the darkness.

You may not listen to what I am saying. But seek God about whether he wants you to be reading it.

Whatever is pure, whatever is praiseworthy, think about such things.

Becoming like the world to win the world has not worked so far.

Murray

Murdog,

The writer of the article hadn't even read the book yet. It's a lot of conjecture. But Harry does ask, 'what happens when we die?'

If you want the rest, you should pick up the book.

In missions studies we learned one good principle. If you want to witness the Muslims, the first thing you should do is pick up and read the Koran.

If you want to witness to this generation, you need to pick up the culturally relevant stories that enthral it.

In missions there's also a lot of talk about using native beliefs to introduce Christian teachings, like Francis Xavior and Chinese Poetry, or Don Richardson's Peace Child.

Don Richardson had to learn about the spiritual beliefs of Sawi people before they could minister the Gospel, because the Sawi people had an entirely different set of values than the missionaries, they needed to find something in the Sawi culture that would give them a relevent entry point for the Gospel -this was the Peace Child.

For Christians working in youth ministry, our 'Peace Child' could and can be Harry Potter, because we have the answer that Harry Potter doesn't have!

Try Soul Food.

I appreciate that brother David Wilkerson was successful in reaching out to gangs as a caucasian country-bread pentecostal minister... but there are also many very successful gang outreaches among the african american community -and they use elements of african american culture that are positive to engage with these people.

I'm saying that Harry Potter is one way to engage with middle class, middle america kids... who are bombarded every day with a vast number of worldviews through advertising and media. This bombardment isn't going to stop, but we can use it as a bridge to bring them the Gospel.

This isn't a new idea, in fact it's one of the oldest in Evangelism.

Pick up a copy of Justin Martyr's writings, read his conversation with the Jew named Trypho. When trying to evangelize this young man he used his Jewish roots, but he also quoted extensively from Greek philosophy, Roman teachings and popular topics of the day. He didn't just stick to the NT, and he didn't just rely on the young man's heritage from Abraham, but also used elements from the surrounding culture to make a case for the Messiah. You'll see the same thing repeat itself over and over through Acts, the letters of Paul and the writings of the early church fathers.

what's wrong with it?
here's a ministry that post a thing on it
http://www.letusreason.org/Current28.htm

in his love
charlene

1Co 10:21 - Show Context
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.

2Co 6:14 - Show Context
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

There is a difference between evangelism and getting into something evil. I would admit I have never read the book but I am a booklover and have seen the devistating effect in ordinary bookshops, in the last few years the amount of witchcraft material has increased.

This is an article from someone who has read the book.
http://www.leannepayne.com/harr

ypotter/index.php[url=http://www.leannepayne.com/harrypotter/index.php]Witchcraft Articles[/url]

In evangelizing I would agree in adopting someone's dress or food (not in the case for cannibals)
but I would not agree in adopting there lifestyle
How can you help them if you become like them, you help someone who is into pornography by reading pornography would be propostrous.

Ga 5:11 - Show Context
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased

The gospel is an offense

Ian,

I understand what you are saying, but I believe you can reach out to these young people without having to read Harry Potter books, watch MTV, etc.

I have never picked up a Harry Potter book but I do know that it glorifies sorcery and witchcraft and does not glorify God.

Jim,

I almost made a similar point about buying some teens a Playboy magazine to build common ground but I didn't think it constituted a right spirit. I do understand where you are coming from though.

Ian, I believe if you truly seek God about how to witness to a lost generation he will tell you.

I know Paul said to be all things to all men to help win them to Christ but I believe he meant that lawfully, not to indulge in the same kind of foolishness that the heathen enjoys.

"Come out from them and touch no unclean thing and then I will be a Father to you."

Murray

I've seen these same kind of writers pull apart the writings of CS Lewis, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and others and make them out to be pagan savages... it's true that the books use a fictionalized world where witchcraft exhists, but they never claim to be reality... just as Transformers, a movie about giant robots from outerspace doesn't claim to be reality. It's just a story.

Did you know that Clement of Alexander early church father used references from Pagan literature in his sermons and writings? That hey quoted extensively from Homer, Plato, Aristotle. Even though Homer believed strongly in a pantheistic worldview.

Clement of Alexander was a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic]Gnostic[/url]
Clement of Alaxandria was dodgy

Col 3:2 - Show Context
Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

The book does not glorify god! like Dietrich Bonhoffer it promotes witchcraft.
Art katz says that fantasy sometimes takes people away from reality
It is important to use set your imagination on godly things

I always wonder what strange heresy will be attributed to me by my nay-sayers after I've gone to be with the Father.

I think what we need to ask ourselves is "Is my priority to win souls or are we here to please God? If God seeks a holy nation, I believe we should not defile ourselves in order to get converts.

I see as well where you're coming from Ian and I believe that your are really trying to please God. I don't however believe you need to read the book to talk to this generation about death. In this case, I don't believe that reading Harry Potter gives you any more credibility to talk about it's main theme.

All that being said, bless you as you step out in boldness. I disagree with your methodology but am impressed by your zeal. May we all continue to seek God honestly and humbly.

Ian, I often agree with you on many points, which, I assume, is a commonality we find from scripture. However, on this point I cannot disagree more.

[Not a diatribe against Ian. This is directed to the Nameless Everyone, of which I am a part]

Are you to suggest that I tell the youth of the church, "As a matter of fact, I did waste 80 hours reading seven books that deny the existence of our Savior and promote witchcraft in the minds of children. Let me tell you a spiritual lesson about it now!"

It pains me to think of Christians reaching into secular filth and blasphemous wastes of time to find their "open doors", rather than receiving from the Spirit, of the word, those things which we minister.

We receive enough "common ground" with unbelievers just by "walking through Athens." There is no need to eat with them in their temples, from the food offered unto idols. I write soberly that the authors three houses and millions of dollars are idols that she purchased with paganism.

We will give an account for every idle word we speak... and moreso for the words we read and the mundane garbage we watch.

As Ravenhill said, "Entertainment is a substitute for joy."

It is one thing to sift difficult psuedo-Christian literature in order to expose it... but it takes less than a magic wand to see that Harry Potter is Christless fiction that supports a hero who uses sin for power.

I don't need Potter and new-wave media to "identify" with culture. I already experienced 21 years of sin-nature to do that with, and there is nothing new under the sun. The leading of the Spirit and a handle of the scriptures is enough.

I used to read Harry Potter when I was unsaved. Loved 'em. And they really got me interested into the very fun sounding occult. You think its just a story? Dude, look around, wake up, it's not just a story. I used to sit at a lunch table with a bunch of witches. I'm not some sheltered cardigan-wearing goody-two-shoes, (and if anyone reading is, I think thats great, I wouldn't mind being in your spot a minute) but I know, not think, know that Harry Potter is not neutral- but EVIL, and has an evil influence on this generation.
When I started seeking God, do you know what kind of Christians I looked for? Was it Christians who read Harry Potter or Christians that were not engaging in that kind of sinful activity that caught my attention?
If you said Harry Potter- good guess, but no. Believe it or not, people who are craving "relevant" Christians... don't want to track the narrow road. They have no interest in holiness, no interest in Christ. And its not your job to make them feel warm and cozy there. In fact, you being warm and cozy there is really really inexcusable.
Though you are in the world, don't be of the world. Set your mind on the things above. Purity, goodness, not darkness and witchcraft.
And yeah, I hate Chronicles of Narnia too. I read all of that series in case you're wondering. And yeah, it opened my mind to Christianity- but the devilish kind. The kind that said if you served the devil with "pure" intention you were actually serving God. His pretty little story with Aslan is much more dangerous than an outright heretical sermon because you're in the fantasy land of no discernment.
W00t, Go Pilgrim's Progress!

When I question something I search the Word and pray for guidance. Next I turn to my mentors and other spiritual leaders I trust to see what they have come up with regarding the topic I’m curious about. It has always been that the vast majority agrees, and in this case, at least in the circles I travel and trust, it is clear.

The Harry Potter books are not Christian. They do not promote Christianity and/or bring Glory to God. Sure God can use them, but He can also use a rattle snake. Just because God can use something or has used something does not mean we should. This is very clear throughout Scripture.

theopenlife:

waste 80 hours

Excellent point regarding stewardship of our (His) time.

Besides Harry Potter 7 (which I just started reading over the weekend) I'm currently reading: JI Packer's 'Knowing God,'
PT Forsyth's 'The Soul of Prayer'
DM M'Intyre's 'The Secret Life of Prayer,'
Mr. and Mrs. Howard Taylor's 'Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secret'
James Rosscup's 'Abiding in Christ'
and just started 'Pelendo: God's Prophet to the Congo' on the request of my missionary mentor.

I have a library of nearly 300 Christian books which I often loan out to friends and church members. Calvin's Commentaries, Church Fathers, Wesley, Witfield, Tozer, Ravenhill, Brother Andrew etc.

The only other fictional book I've read in the past year has been Dostoevsky's 'The Idiot' which I highly recommend considering it's an allegory for the desperate need for Jesus in Russia before the rise of communism.

I hope I've put my credentials back in order.

[b]Bro Dom ...[/b]

i haven't much comment on Harry Potter, as you (by Holy Spirit) seem to be doing just fine! ... The dangers you see in Harry Potter and all it represents, in America is percieved as much more benign because paganism, magic, Wicca, (etc) is still serious in Britain, whereas here for the most part it's all just seen as "amusement" ... No justification, just a deadly fact ...

But what i do want to do is acknowledge your growth in Jesus, and exhort your continuance in it's pursuit via prayer and faith in Him that He is indeed a rewarder of ALL who diligently seek Him ... Brother, as one who has prayed for you often in your plights of past posts, it is obvious that you're progressing past your "self" ...

i looked in your profile and see that you're a young man in our Lord, and was really blessed by your statement there ...

"I have many interests but no plan or purpose for my life other than doing what God wants as He is my destiny"

Bro Dom this is a sure powerful statement coming from a 24 year old, especially in the wickedness of our times and in the place of your assignment ... Keep seeking God's destiny for your life, for preoccupation with such a quest can only bring you what my pastor calls "heaven on earth when one is finally connected by God to His ultimate purpose for our lives" ...

God bless you bro Dom, as he continues to reveal in you His purpose for your life!

Bro R :-D

Hey iansmith,

What does it matter if you read their writings if you don't believe what they wrote?
Good choices for sure, but you know none of them would approve of you reading Harry Potter for any reason.
It just isn't right to read them. I don't know why you are continuing to. We've tried to tell you, and that's all we can do.

I keep wondering how many people in this particular thread actually know what they are talking about? I don't mean than in an offensive way, just to say 'do we judge a man before we hear him?'.

I try not to judge a man before I have heard him. It is so easy to follow a crowd, and Christian crowds aren't necessarily any safer than non-Christian crowds.

For the record, I have read all the previous 6 and am now reading the 7th. I regard them as obligatory reading for all Christian grandfathers! ;-)

Hope,

I wouldn't conjecture what other men enjoyed or didn't enjoy. Oswald Chambers enjoyed curling up with a good book (fiction) and listening to classical music.

Many great men and women of God have and DO occasionally seek out a good book, or a movie or music. And if we wanted to get nit-picky, we could probably find plenty of problems with anything anyone is reading apart from the bible... and why stop there, lets nit-pick bible translations as well.

The thing is, the Harry Potter this is a scapegoat for a bigger issue entirely. We boycott Harry Potter, or Disney or whatever... but the fact of the matter is that 99% of Christians, weven 'good conservative ones' continue to watch television, listen to music and read books.

Now if reading a book and finding a little bit of enjoyment is going to send me to hell, then I'll see most everyone else around here down there... but I know thats not the case, because even though a book may bring me enjoyment, it can never bring me Joy, the Joy that is only found in Jesus.

I know Harry Potter is fiction, I know that its written for enjoyment... everyone seems to want to read more into it than that -but most of the people who have read it would agree that they understand it as such as well. If someone reads it and doesn't see it as fiction, then that person is bent and needs a psychiatrist... if you want to read satan into something, read him into something thats actually killing people around the world.

Sweatshops in south asia, child prostitution in thailand, aids epidemics, child soldiers in africa, radical hindus killing christians in india, communist north koreans killing their own people... trust me, Satan has a lot of stuff on his plate and not very much time to go write a book called Harry Potter.

Its going to take me 8 hours to read this book from cover to cover... there have been nights when i spend more time sleeping than that. Trust me, before I was a Christian I looked at pornography for way more than 8 hours. In my lifetime i've probably been angry, lustful, proud, or sinning in any number of ways 8 hours multiplied by hundreds and thousands.

Now i'm not trying to rationalize or excuse sin -because its not, it's meat sacrificed to idols. The Holy Spirit has led me to give up many things, but so far Harry Potter hasn't gotten the axe.

I'm just trying to say, that to blame anyone's lack of spiritual life, or acceptance of the occult on harry potter would be a huge mistake... harry potter doesn't make anyone satanic, they have all the building blocks in themselves already.

As for the writers being churched, that's like mixing Budhism with Christianity. What fellowship hath light with darkeness? Many shall say in that day, Lord, Lord...

As for judging them before reading their books, there are some things that should be avoided. Have NO NO NO NO fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkeness. That's plain. Simple. Profound.

Those books are deeply carnal, yet rooted in spiritualism and witchcraft.

Leonard Ravenhil said,
"Is the world crusified unto you, or does it facinate you?"

i wonder, are you facinated by the glitter and entertainment of the world?

Anyone who has these books for entertainment, is dabbling in the occult. And those who read it for reference purposes should not be too careful.

Why read that stuff for reaching out to people, when it is the Word of God that will change a life? i have seen it with my own eyes that when the world's phraseology and wisdom is used to try to convince the sinner of his sinful position, it only leads to a mental acceptance, or an arguement. On the contrary, when witnessing, if i use the Word of God, the people litterally begin to come under convition. As Leonard said again, "There is no substitute for the Word of God, there is no substitute for prayer."

Well, i have known people who read these books, and they have testified that it was a drain on their life spiritually, because it was like drinking poison. The stories may be "fiction" as in the characters and circumstances not being real, but here we have a fictional story based off of reality. And believe me, the stuff they do in those books works for the most part... It's real.

So if your reading through them for reference purposes, for preaching agains them (i do believe that we should not preach agains something we know nothing about) please please be careful. :-)

And if for any other reason-- please please put them down and burn them.

Here is an excellent sermon about Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings (Witch :-P is on the same level as Harry Potter)

http://charityministries.org/msg_detail.a5w?vlast_index=3019

i think everyone should listen to this message. It is very revealing.

God bless you all.

-nathan

Krispy,

It's all about motives... now I recently heard a very good lecture about Truth based on the teachings of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, despite being pro-ecumenical, he also said that they should pursue truth (in doctrine) even though it would drive them apart, because without truth, being together meant nothing.

Now there are some who are anti-ecumenical, and will not have read all of Bonhoeffers writings and will automatically assume the worst about him because he was part of that movement, but they fail to understand that he was a very conservative and abrasive voice in that conversation.

People attack the reputations of men of faith in order to further their own agenda or teaching. We would like to slander the name of a martyr because its evidence for our own particular agenda in the church... that is why I dislike some of those so-called 'discernment ministries.'

...

I am not trying to further an agenda, just present another voice... Instead of burning these books, I simply asked whether or not it was possible to use them as a tool for evangelism... I think that they are and can be a very good resource as such. Frankly, I doubt very much that any of you have read these books... (except the occasional person who has stated that they have). But I think everyone needs a refresher on some of the Proverbs about reserving judgement.

Just my thoughts.

This is rather long, but if you want to dig in a bit, read through it.

Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings
By Rick Leibee

The Bible text that I am going to teach from is 1 Timothy 4:1-2, “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that
in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.”
This verse is a very strong verse. The word Spirit is capitalized. So, the Holy Spirit is going to show us
that not all but some are going to depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
Now the word devil, if you were to look it up, means what you might think it means—it means demons. It is not
a euphemism. It is not just a general term. It actually means in the Greek, “demoni.” It means the teachings and
doctrines and truths that demons would hold to. There is a warning here that in our day we will see some that are
actually in the church be seduced and have something to do with demons. To be seduced means to be attracted to
and won over to another thing, and then to go to it and become one with it. This is in the Bible and we see it here
in our day.
The backdrop of this verse is that some who are Christians will be seduced by doctrines of demons. The
keyword is some. We know the world is going to play with those things. The world always has and the world
always will. The difference we are seeing now is not a little thing, but a big shift in the thinking of most
Americans over the last 25 years.
Worldwide Influence
The Harry Potter books have had a worldwide impact; they are also the most popular books of the 21st
century. They have sold over 150 million copies since they were introduced in to America in the fall of 1999.
The average price of each book is $15.00. “The Goblin of Fire,” was $25-$28.00. If you start doing the math, the
book sales alone were around $3,000,000. The movie came out last year. Both the “Lord of the Rings” and the
“Harry Potter” movie came out in 2001. Both movies were two of the top five movies of that year. It is not just a
blip on the radar screen. Hundreds of millions of people are watching and reading.
Do you know what the most popular book besides the Bible in the 20th century was? It was “The Lord of
the Rings,” by J.J.R. Tolkein. Like Harry Potter it is based on a magical, mystical, mythical land called middle
earth. It is filled with elves, dwarves, giants, and goblins. Wizards rule with magic—supposedly good magic.
There is no such thing as good magic, as we will see in the Bible, but the premise of the book is that there is good
magic. There are three books in the series.
The Popular Christian Response
While God calls the themes of these books an abomination, some Christians are calling them good and
even virtuous! There is a marked shift here. Some are being seduced by spirits and falling under the sway of the
doctrines of devils. They are actually calling darkness light and evil good. These are not just a few weirdoes—
this is mainstream Christianity by the millions and millions! The world as we know it is waxing worse and worse.
We do not say that with joy but with a sense of the reality and soberness of the times in which we live. We need
to be awake and aware of these things, because they are doing a lot more than just being popular. They are
changing the way people think and relate to one another. They are changing the way people think about
Christianity and God. We need to know these things so that we can know the time in which we live.
I’ll just relay a few things that have happened to our family in the last several weeks. We have received
several phone calls from those who have encountered several professing Christians who were arguing or debating
with them about the goodness and rightness and Christian virtues of these books, which I would consider very
much occultic. Primarily the Harry Potter books, but also the Lord of the Rings. Then a few days ago I got an
advertisement in the mail from a major Christian bookseller. The thing that surprised me most about what I found
in there was a book defending the Harry Potter books.
I went to several Christian bookstores to see what kind of information they would have. They had four
books on the Harry Potter series. All four of them were defending it. One was called, “The Bible According to
Harry Potter.” Another one was called, “The Christian Virtues of Harry Potter.” Then there was this one that I
bought, “Fantasy and Your Family, A Closer Look at the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, or Finding Magic in
the Modern World.” This is promoting it. They were for it, not against it! There are a few in Christian circles
that are taking a stand against these books, however they are the minority and their books are not found in the
popular Christian bookstores.
2
They did not sell the Harry Potter series at the stores I went to; however they did have the entire Lord of
the Rings series in three different versions. I read part of the books while I was there so I would know what I was
talking about. I also got a hold of a few Harry Potter books, although I did not read much of them because they
pollute the mind of the reader. One of the criticisms people give is that they think I did not read the books. You
don’t need to read these books to find out how bad they are, but I did want to do some research.
What the Scriptures Say about Witchcraft
I do not want to give too much detail about these books, but I will give a little more information later.
Let’s read the Word first because that is our foundation.
Exodus 22:18, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.”
Leviticus 19:31, “Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by
them: I am the LORD your God.”
Deuteronomy 18:10-11, “There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his
daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.” Necromancer is a compound
of two words meaning “death” and “empowered.” A necromancer is a wizard who has a special power to raise
the dead. The word necromancer is in both The Lord of the Rings and the Harry Potter books.
Revelation 21:8, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and
whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with
fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 22:15, “For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and
idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” The people in this list are without—outside the gates of
heaven. Did you catch the one in the middle? It is sorcerers, users of magic. Why does God put that in the list?
God makes witchcraft a question of salvation. He takes it seriously enough that He defines a line marking where
an eternal soul is going to be if they touch those things. They are going to be without, and that is very serious
thing. The professing Christians that are being seduced must tear the truth that witchcraft is an abomination right
out of the Bible. Once again, we need to be aware that this is a shift in thinking. It wouldn’t be as bad if it was
the world saying this, but these are Christians. They are doing it by the millions. It is not the guy down the street
riding his Harley Davidson and drinking his beer. These are famous regular Christians who have Christian radio
programs and big national ministries with millions of followers. They are not only saying that this stuff is not bad,
they are saying that it is good. Most of the Christian literature today that defends the Harry Potter books says that
everyone knows that there are no such things as real magic and sorcery. It is just like a make-believe story.
Chuck Colson is one of the authors of this material. I am sorry, but Chuck Colson is calling God a liar.
Galatians 5:19-21, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication,
uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in
time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” This verse is very similar to the
verse above in Revelation. This is a list of the works of the flesh, and tucked in the middle is the word witchcraft.
If you look it up it means a user of sorcery, magic and wizardry. These are the words we hear in Harry Potter or
the Lord of the Rings.
A Little about the Books
Some suggested I read these books here in church, but I could not bring myself to do that. I hope you can
take my words and descriptions of these books without reading them or hearing portions of them. I read enough of
them to get a good idea of what they are about, and I copied down a couple of short excerpts.
For some background, the hero of the series is Harry Potter. He is a boy of 11 who was an orphan. His
parents were killed by an evil wizard whose name I won’t read—even his name is gross. Harry was left with a
mark on his forehead, just like the mark in Revelation. He does not have any friends. Nobody respects him. But
then he is invited through a secret messenger to a school where he can learn to be a wizard. He begins his magical
life there. He finds out that he is a wizard. He begins going to school and learning all of these things.
The evil wizard was actually killed and resurrected by taking some of Harry Potter’s blood. Notice the
imagery they use. They use some blood from the hero to give life to the villain. They use resurrection. They take
things from the Bible. The headmaster of the school, supposedly the head wizard has some friends who are 666
years old. They are planning to commit suicide. When Harry Potter becomes surprised at this the headmaster
says, “To one as young as you I am sure it seems incredible, but really it’s like going to bed after a very, very long
time day. After all to the well organized magical mind death is but the next great adventure.”
This is the kind of stuff that is going in to the minds of 9, 10 and 11 year olds. Other age children read it,
both younger and older. This is probably enough to give you a basic idea of this book.
The books present many things that we noted the Bible speaking against earlier, such as astrology,
mediums, numerology, crystal gazing, wizardry, spell casting, and the list goes on. The whole series is set in
England and it chronicles his life over different years at this magical school. Some of his teachers turn out to be
dark wizards. They teach things like defense against the dark arts. Here is a quote from one of the evil wizards,
“There is no good and evil; there is only power in those too weak to seek it.” Did you catch that? These are
books that Christians are saying are good, but the books themselves say there is no good or evil.
The other book, which was the most popular book of the 20th century, “The Lord of the Rings,” takes
place in a mythical place and time and is filled with dwarves, giants and elves. An evil wizard is named Saron.
There are magical rings; it is all sorcery and wizardry. I don’t need to go in to all of those things.
America’s Thinking Has Shifted
Did you know there are actually witch covens in the United States? It is actually a legitimate registered
religion in America today in many, many states. One of the precepts of Wiccan is that there is no good or evil.
They don’t call themselves evil. They just say power is to be used however you would like to use it. That is the
whole premise of the Harry Potter books. There are wizards in there. Some are good, some are evil and some are
in the middle. There is no good or no evil except Harry Potter the really good guy according to these books. The
books state that it is just power. That is one of the most insidious things about the books, because one of the
effects is that it is teaching children how to think. The Harry Potter books are written for 9-12 year olds. Isn’t
that shocking?
Because of these books, young people are beginning to learn and think in another way. They are
beginning to believe that there is not a right or a wrong way of thinking. The ones that are critical in these books
are critical of Christians who teach and preach against this. They teach that the only true evil is intolerance.
This is a shift in American thinking. It used to be if a Christian got in to a discussion with someone else
the other person would say, “I don’t believe in that,” or, “I don’t agree.” Today you might hear something like
this, “You are judging me, you are judging everybody, you hate everybody, and you are just preaching hate.”
Now the shift is that Americans no longer disagree about the Bible or about what God is doing; now they classify
Christians as full of hate and intolerant. True evil in our society is now intolerance rather than standing for what is
right and what is wrong. Because when you stand for that you are seen as the greater evil. You are seen as more
evil than a wizard or a sorcerer, because the best thing to be politically correct in our society is everything is ok,
everybody is ok, nothing is that bad. It is also called relative morality. Relative morality says that if it is wrong
to me it is wrong, but there are no absolutes.
This whole change in the thinking of America is one more step. It is evil and an abomination. Some of
you may get in conversations about this and find out you are being attacked. You’re thinking, “I am just standing
for the Bible.” You are called names like prejudice or this and that. This is a shift that may not have happened
thirty or forty years ago. But, now that is the way people think.
The Common Acceptance of Witchcraft
I have another concern with these books as well, one which I am not even sure I see all of its depth or
ramifications. This has to do with the acceptance of witchcraft as normal or even good. It is becoming more and
more embraced and accepted.
What is seen as common in entertainment soon becomes acceptable behavior in society. I hope you
understand that. If you do not believe that think of when Elvis Presley got up on stage in the 1950’s. He was on
Ed McMahon’s Story hour, and he gyrated his hips and sang some rock and roll song. The nation was horrified
and people wrote in and they turned off their televisions. They actually went back and edited the show and said
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they would never show that again. Well, as rock and roll became accepted entertainment, what was considered
outrageous back then soon became accepted as normal behavior.
Do you see how this happens? Society has always followed entertainment and art. It has been going on
for thousands of years. I don’t go to the movies and you probably don’t either, but tens of thousands of people do
feed on this and even Christians are saying this is good. Children go to church on Sunday after having spent
Saturday watching necromancy and wizardry. And they feel at peace with God? That is scary.
These things are very dangerous because it is causing an unprecedented interest and activity in
witchcraft. Even the books that defend these books admit this. There are a lot of websites out there about groups
you can join. These groups are being joined by 9,10, 11, 12 and 13 year olds.
One of the authors who are for the books admits he is not sure about children joining these groups. A girl
wrote in, Nicole, age 13, and said, “I wish I could do magic; if I could do magic I would speak to snakes. Or
maybe I could be a necromancer so I could raise the dead.” Another girl, Rebecca, age 12, said, “I could get
revenge on some people.” This is by a girl named Grace age 14, “Do I ever wish I could perform magic like Harry
Potter! Ever since I have been reading Harry Potter books I have daydreamed about it; I would love to do it!” The
list goes on. They give a whole list of children. Even those that promote Harry Potter have a bit of concern. They
are concerned because of the young ages of children joining these online Wiccan covens and groups by the
millions.
I went to Barnes and Noble Bookstore. Can you believe what was right next to the Harry Potter books?
There were many books on witchcraft right next to the Harry Potter books. There were books on witches and
wizards. The bookstores know what they are doing. They sell the real books right next to the fiction stories. The
bookstores made the connection, but the Christians aren’t getting it. Some have departed from the faith to
seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. The world knows what it is doing, but the Christians seem to not be
getting it.
Removal of Godly Fear
One of my greatest concerns even among church people is that godly fear that protects mankind from
dabbling in the spirit world is being taken away first from children and second from their parents. Because they
read these books, the terrors and horrors of evil are being taken away even for the worldling. These things are
being normalized at an alarming rate. These books are engaging in discipleship and disciplining the children who
read them. It is turning them away from Bible reading and ultimately from God’s protection.
This godly fear that we used to have that protects mankind from the spirit world is being taken away from
children who read these books. There used to be a terror and horror about dabbling in these things. But, instead
these books actually draw them in and engage them so that the hero actually does these things. In the book it is
not the bad guy that does this but the good guy. And he actually does it better than the bad guys. The book calls
them bad guys. Of course the whole book is bad. According to the theme of the book the good guys do magic
better. They have more wizardry. They take what God calls abomination, pile it up and call it good!
The largest fan club today of any fictional character is the Harry Potter fan club. Children join the fan
club and they get clothing that looks like it and notebooks. They go to school with these items. They are being
disciplined and discipled into this spiritual alternative. It turns them away from Biblical principles and ultimately
from the protection of God. Once you start coming under the influence of this stuff you have lost the protection of
God.
A Witch Can Repent
God said in the Old Testament, “Suffer not a witch to live.” We don’t live in the Old Testament; I don’t
know what to do with that today. But, the principle of God’s heart has not changed. Just because we are in a
different dispensation does not mean that God’s heart has changed. His way of handling it has changed, but his
heart has not. If it was an abomination then it is an abomination now. The difference on this side of the cross is
that there is a way that even they may be saved. It is open to them. Praise God. There is a way that can be made
open, even though that practice is horrible.
Liars, idolaters, murderers, can repent too. Such were some of you; we know that Ephesus was the great
cultural city of magic and sorcery. Acts 19 is where that encounter comes with those that had books of magic and
sorcery and silver idols that they were using. The dark arts ended up being burned. There was a spiritual battle
that took place in the city of Ephesus, in Acts. The result was that God brought the Gospel there through Paul and
others. The spiritual battle was won. But, here we have in our day this battle going on. Again, this thing of
intolerance is to the point where the only absolute truth is that Christianity is wrong.
Effects on Society
What usually goes along with sorcery and witchcraft? What else do you often see? Suicide! Suicide rates
go up. The suicide rate for people between the ages of 10-18 has gone up in the last twenty years all over the
world, not just America.
What else do we see? Don’t forget that the root of all this evil power is Satan. These are the doctrines of
demons. Sorcery and witchcraft are supernatural attempts at manipulation of the order of nature the way God has
made it—attempts to rend it and change it and pervert it by an outside power. That power is not of God, but the
devil.
Some of the things that we see in our day that are prevalent because of witchcraft are the following:
1. Rebellion is rampant in our land—really worldwide.
2. Immorality, because in these books nothing is right and nothing is wrong. There are no absolute truths,
according to these books. This is one of the biggest tenants of the Wiccan and Wizard religions is that we
are tolerant, it’s not evil or good, it is just power.
3. Violence. We live in a day when people talk a lot about pacifism and we are supposed to be sophisticated
and educated. But, violence is amazing in our day and our land.
4. Fear—that is part of suicide. There is a lot of fear. There are many spirits of fear. Is there a hospital in
America that does not have a sleep center? Even Ephrata has one. Why? Because people can’t sleep.
They lay down at night and I believe that the demons in their belly start coming up. They can’t sleep.
What does the Bible say about sleep and a man of God? His sleep shall be sweet.
5. Depression. There is hopelessness of what is going to happen.
6. Drinking and drugs. The people that are involved in witchcraft drink and do drugs because they want to
escape reality.
7. Covetousness, there is that wanting more. In the books they want more power. Even in the books the
“good” guys want more spells. They want to learn more and have more power. In our society people want
more and all these things are seen as ok. Even if there were not magic in these books the principles in
these books are evil. Yet, Christian writers, famous ones are saying that they are good. That is frightening.
These societal issues are growing concurrently with these books. It is not an accident. We don’t talk about
this to sensationalize it, but I have a concern though that Christians can be asleep and think it is ok. We can
without realizing it. We may not have this book, but there may be other things we let in our house. Like the
Smurfs, CareBears, or Mickey Mouse. They are cute and cuddly looking. But, the root of all of these is sorcery.
The most famous Disney movie with Mickey Mouse is, “The Sorcerers Apprentice.” We need to be careful to
keep these things out of our homes.
A Battle for the Minds—and Souls—of Men
Not only that, but we need to also keep them out of our minds so that we will be ready to give the reason
for the hope that is our hearts. We are being challenged about this issue—I had three calls in the last two weeks.
A couple of months ago I had a few calls. At first I just ignored it, but when I added these to it I realized that
something is going on here. These calls were from people in our circles who were being questioned and attacked
harshly about these books. They were being challenged by professing Christians elsewhere. When I read that
verse in 1 Timothy and I put it together I realized that this something real and there is a shift in the thinking in
America.
It is really nice to live in Lancaster County, but there may be a temptation to put our lives on cruise
control sometimes. We don’t realize what the culture is doing and how it is affecting how people think and relate
to the gospel. We need to know these things so we will know how to pray, because it is a spiritual warfare.
We are not learning about this to have a mental understanding. We need to gird up our loins and ask,
“How do we pray and how do we need to press forward?” This is a battle—a spiritual battle—for the minds of
the children of America. It is not an entertainment battle. It is not about who gets the ratings on the best movie,
although they get that too. It is not a game. It is not a story about a little boy in England at a magical school.
Satan is behind it all, and he is battling for the minds and ultimately the souls of the children.
We need to look at it as a cosmic battle, to step back and see this from God’s perspective. That is why we
need to talk about these things. I am not just glad that I am not misled. This is a very serious thing. This is a battle
for the children in this country, a battle for their minds and hearts and ultimately as we read in Revelation for their
souls. For their very souls! Satan is getting them younger and younger and younger.
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That is why I am talking about this. I see this as part of the great cosmic warfare. The great spiritual
warfare of the ages. In each age it may be manifested a little bit differently. In the Middle Ages it was done in a
much more black and white way. In our day Satan is hiding as an Angel of Light. He can do that. He has the
power to do that because he was that. He knows how to look like a lamb, even though he is a wolf. He wants to
rend.
I have seen the pictures of Harry Potter. This is one of the reasons why he is so popular. He looks like this
harmless little twelve-year-old boy. He is cute with round glasses, black messy hair, and a lopsided grin. He likes
everybody and everybody likes him. But he is a wizard, so the root of the story is Satan. He knows how to look
like an angel of light. He gets in the heart of children. Not a few, but tens of millions. A lot of them are even
Christians.
J.K. Rowling is the author of these books. She said that she is purposely making each book a little more
evil then the first. In her words, “I am making the characters a little worse because I want to draw them in to the
story deeper and deeper.” She has admitted what she doing and the parents are just eating it up. Isn’t it amazing
that she is not even trying to hide?
We need to blow the trumpet on this. This is not just about doctrine. This is an eternal issue, because it is
part of cosmic warfare. It is not just, “I don’t need to know about it.” It is a serious issue. It is seducing millions
of people and children in our land, and they are dying full of wizardry and sorcery and going off into eternity;
going to meet the God of the ages, thinking that it was just a child’s game. Where are those that commit sorcery
going to be?
They will burn in the Lake of Fire forever.

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

In a world which is dark, do we not consider something that the world is raving about to be wrong

Lu 16:15 - Show Context
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

For those who think that these books are ok, and you are disagreeing with those on here who say they are wicked, please check your hearts in light of this verse:

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

These books are highly esteemed among men. hmmm... i wonder why? Maybe because the children love to read the works of the father...

In Christ,
-nathan

Nathan, I think you're applying the verse well, but once again I think you're hitting the scapegoat issue... just like the sermon already posted that lists harry potter in relation to verses that are talking about the end times.

I honestly think that if there were a list of 100 of the biggest problems in the American church sent down to earth by angels and handed out to ministers all around the country... Harry Potter would not rank in the top 100.

Frankly speaking, we're killing eachother, eating eachother alive, fornicating with eachother, abusing eachother... God knows all of the sin in the church.

Harry Potter, as successful as the book and movie franchise are, is not anywhere near the level of attention it deserves. In fact, if you'd actually read it, you'd realize its pretty innocent and unassuming. What i've taken away from the book is the importance of friendship, loyalty, forgiveness, family, hope, etc. I think that the story is only possible with the elememnts of magic, but thats what it is, a story, a fantasy, a fable. And like Aesop's fables, there are many good morals and positive lessons to be learned.

And it's also got a built in safety mechanism. The books say that in the Harry Potter world, if you haven't 'manifested magical power' by the time you're 11 years old, you cannot be a witch or wizard... well when do these girls and boys start reading the book... 11, 12, 13... guess what, they already know they're not magical. Its just a story, they cannot take over the role of the main character.

I hate to see so many people getting worked up about this in the church... frankly some of the stuff that some of our brothers and sisters have said about this book (without reading it) makes the church look weak and ignorant.

It's a good mystery, lots of twists and turns... friends sacrificing themselves to save other friends, love, fighting against evil. Frankly, the elements are actually very positive, and they're held together by this notion of magic.

The magic is the canvas, but when you look at a painting you don't admire the canvas, you look at what is painted on it... the story has many elements which can be used to to talk about the Gospel. The canvas is filled with a rich collection of moral stories, bright and positive characters and a generally positive message. The magic makes it possible to tell the story, but the story isn't in the magic itself.

This in no way means that Harry Potter should suplant the bible, or even writings of any great man or woman of faith... but for a bit of a read on a saturday afternoon, I see nothing wrong with it.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16303&forum=35]Some snippets on this subject[/url]

Is it truly innocent

is it really all that innocent?

So from your point of few the world is thoroughly innocent, where do you think people learnt to fornicate from?
Their parents, or from what they saw on TV.
Is our culture not in the hand of the wicked one

Eph 2:2 - Show Context
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

I was into pornography as a christian!!! and realised that the pictures harmed me enough.
That I was demonically attacked down the street.
If the imagination has nothing to do with your faith then pornography is therefore Ok because it is ok if it does not harm you but as a christian you decided to give it up.
I know some christians who say pornography will not hurt them but that does not change the bible or the word of god
Is it not the same with images that portray witcraft witch the bible specifically says is wrong even thou it is in a yet innocent form.
Are all things innocent, such as the He-man series in which the heroe is the ruler of the Universe.
Does not Fiction deserve much scrutiny against the bible as non fiction.
Most people like Hudson Taylor would be shocked at Harry Potter and especially people like David Livingstone where witchcraft is commen.
Let our youth emulate harry
So that when they grow up they can emulate their heroe harry potter who is a witch rather than christ.

E.T promoted making demons friendly

I have never tried drugs but that does not mean I try drugs so that I can become relevant to my youth friends as a vast number smoke herion

Hey iansmith,

Well, I actually have no opinion on fiction as a whole. I stopped seeking fiction myself because I just had a change of taste, no real religious reason or anything. But like I said, I'm fully behind Pilgrim's Progress, and anything doctrinally sound like that I'd fully back, fiction or not.
I love a good biography or watching a documentary, so I'm not like completely against reading or watching... stuff. And I understand that people would point a stern finger at me because I read (and endorse) Finney's writings. So you're right, anything non-biblical can receive a harsh word from a strong minded brother or sister.
So I understand your defense (I hope at least).
However, should I go read a trashy romance novel? What if I posted on here that I read trashy romance novels because they help me relate to 40 year old single women. Wouldn't you try to stop me?
I'm not just against Harry Potter and its witchcraft, I'm against books/movies with sex, drugs, violence, and all stuff that's contrary to scripture. The reason that I'm not just letting you do what you want is because there is really no difference between enjoying the "innocent" witchcraft than any other nasty sin that is just as popular with my peers (and older people).
And what did Paul say about meat sacrificed to idols? That he wouldn't eat it. Because you are a youth leader (I guess?) of at least affiliated with youth, you're setting yourself up to be a stumbling block to those children. Why destroy a soul for whom Christ died because of Harry Potter?
And please don't look at those "good conservative" Christians for advice on how to live right.

I haven't read the whole thread. But something probably a bit different to the general discussion saddened me yesterday.

I walked into Church Sunday morning early, the worship team were about to enter into prayer, and there were a few people reading Bibles and so on - I saw one of my friends and didn't interrupt her because she seemed engrossed in the Bible, something I'd never seen publicly with her before - I thought "that's really good".

Later I looked and it turned out she was engrossed in the seventh Harry Potter book, just before the service. When I was speaking to her, I just said "I have to admit I was a bit disappointed earlier, I thought you were reading the Bible but you were reading Harry Potter and about the school of Witch craft and Wizardry"

Immeadietly the response I got was a response about how "it's only fantasy" and "it's not bad" etc - that clearly wasn't my point - my point was it had replaced her Bible at church.

That was my reason for cutting out fiction really (that's a personal preference, not a command) - I find the Truth so deep, vast, exciting and glorious that I have no desire to read things that aren't the truth in it's place.

My concern with Harry Potter was groups of Christians joining the midnight queues waiting for the store to open to get the last Harry Potter book - oh that the children of God would have the same thirst for HIS Word.

On the issue of Fiction vs 'but it is about Witchcraft' and so on - I think we do have to a bit of a reality check in that, the majority of people reading Harry Potter, don't believe it to be true any more than they believe the Chronicles of Narnia to be true - but for me - what Art Katz spoke about in his "Be Ye Perfect" sermon (I've only heard a compilation of it so forgive me if that's not the title) hits it.

In that sermon Art shows how actually the things of men, even seemingly good things, actually have their origin from Satan as well.

I think it's tragic that not only are Christians caught up in the fad of a book that many seem more excited about than the Word of God (in my experience) but that also we can perceive a book celebrating witchcraft as neutral, and of no spiritual background.

Regardless of whether the author is into witchcraft or not, this work of fiction is at best influenced by the world - which, in itself is ruled by Satan. I see Harry Potter and it's success as the blasphemous boasting of Satan - not only can he knock the Word off the number 1 reading list, he can do so with a book celebrating witchcraft.

A Christian book store I go to has all sorts of books on "unlocking the Da Vinci Code" and "Finding the Gospel in Harry Potter" - oh that we'd find the Gospel in the Bible again first, and preach it unreservedly - may the success of such a thing break out hearts as I believe it breaks God's - what a thing to cause neglect of the Word in the Saints.

There's my 2pence (which is about four cents these days - hehe)

The topic of moives and books.
Whatever one it might be. My dear beloved in Christ is not our goal to be Holy as He is Holy.
if I might ask the question what does it mean to be holy? What do it mean to in the world but not of the World? Holiness my dear beloved is our goal? God's word is all we need, to show us what is right and what is wrong. God's ways are highter then ours. dear beloved we can see what God's word says, but it comes down to do we want to obey it? Do we really want to be holy? It hurts to say I am worng, but may God give us a humble and broken spirit. If in fact we are to dwell on what is hloy and honorable
then what we read and watch is huge. But again we don't watch it because the sin is in all in us, But we stop watching and reading these things because what they ARE!! a little yest works in way through whole lump? Yes ..so then a little sin will make a moive wicked. May I ask what is sin to God? Dear beloved what heavyness does it hold? What sorrow do we face when we sin? Do sinning bring glory to our King? We must ask this most important Question.. Does it honor Christ? Is he getting all the Glory? If not run from it!! Now if sin is all the same and hold the same wickedness. Then why love any part of it small or big? Why ues sin to reach the world? Does not God hate sin? Turly God's word can do more then any other book. Are we willing to have a teachable heart? Are we willing to let God speak to our hearts to say what is right and worng. Dear beloved go to God and seek his face. And look into God's word and obey it? Again I ask what does it look like to be holy? Have we dishonor God by sin we call good? AGain what is sin? Does darkness and light together? God is holy and we are be Holy too.
When we see the posion in these thing we will be wise and run!! Sin my dear beloved is posion it kills us. It hurts us. Walk in the spirit so you don't desire the flesh.. Let us train our youth in biblical teaching, not in childish play. Let us preach Christ, not play games. Let us pray, not play video games. The men of old preached Christ and it work why wouldn't it work now. Is not Gods word powerful to cut through the youth heart? Does not God;s word dress every need for life? Point them to Christ where life is.. The word sets people free not the world ways Gods ways..

In his love charlene

I have, for a long time, maintained a stance on Harry Potter that it is wrong, because it is set in the real world, and puts power in the hands of the children- you don't need anything but yourself and the dark powers to get whatever thing you want. This thread helps solidify that stance, especially the long article that awakenwithin posted. I second it: http://www.letusreason.org/Current28.htm[url=http://www.letusreason.org/Current28.htm]http://www.letusreason.org/Current28.htm[/url]

It is quite long, though, so hear is a quote or two:

They come in many strengths and forms. Now, according to the Ministry of Magic, I’m supposed to teach you counter-curses and leave it at that (Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire p.187).

“I told you, it's You-Know-Who's symbol, Ron,” said Hermione... I read about it in The Rise and Fall of the Dark Arts.” ”Reducio,” said Moody softly. “You don't need thumbscrews or knives to torture someone if you can perform the Cruciatus Curse.... That one was very popular once too... anyone know any other [spells]? Hermione's hand shook slightly as, for the third time, she raised it into the air.. ... “Ah,” said Moody, another slight smile twisting his lopsided mouth. “Yes, the last and the worst. Adava Kedavra... the Killing Curse.” (p. 215)

“and Voldemort's dead victims whispered as they circled the dueler, whispered words of encouragement to Harry, and hissed words Harry couldn't hear to Voldemort.

And now another head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort's wand.... The smoky shadow of a tall man with untidy hair fell to the ground... and Harry, his arms shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his father.

“Your mother's coming...” he said quietly. “She wants to see you.... When the connection is broken, we will linger for only moments.... you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts....” (pp. 667-669

“Harry...” whispered the figure of Cedric, “take my body back, will you? ... back to my parents.” .... (pp. 667-669) this is speaking to the dead Spiritism is a real religious practice.

Madame Trelawney is possessed by a spirit which speaks through her and predicts events which come true in Harry’s life. (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban., p. 324)

Harry enters the room to take his final exam on Divination, looks into a big crystal ball and is supposed to tell Professor Trelawney what he sees. Based on what he sees, he gets his grade. Harry disappoints Professor Trelawney by pretending to see something and just makes it up (p. 323 The “made-up” prediction does come true p. 415). As he is about to leave the room, Professor Trelawney speaks...

A loud, harsh voice spoke behind him.”It will happen tonight.”But Professor Trelawney didn’t seem to hear him. Her eyes started to roll. Harry sat there in a panic. She looked as though she was about to have some sort of seizure. He hesitated, thinking of running to the hospital wing — and then Professor Trelawney spoke again, in the same harsh voice, quite unlike her own:”The Dark Lord lies Alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers…”

Professor Trelawney’s head fell forward onto her chest. She made a grunting sort of noise. Harry sat there, staring at her. Then, quite suddenly, Professor Trelawney’s head snapped up again. “I’m so sorry, dear boy,” she said dreamily, “the heat of the day, you know... I drifted off for a moment....”Harry responds, “You—you just told me that the—the Dark Lord’s going to rise again... that his servant’s going to go back to him....” Professor Trelawney looked thoroughly startled. (p. 324).

Why would we want to linger on such things, esp. as entertainment? That is just opening doors for Satan to tempt you. "Do not give the devil a foothold."
I too used to be obsessed with fiction, specifically the "safe" LOTR and Chronicles of Narnia. Even talking about it now makes my flesh want to go back- but what long, wasting hours I spent on learning their worlds! Instead of making more friends, I read out of these books. I drew so many things from them. It was not healthy.

There are more ways of "infiltrating the culture" than these silly, distracting, time-consuming books.

*off of soapbox*

I hope that people will be rescued from such dark books as the Harry Potter series.

I can't believe that so called Christians are reading this trash. Do you not realize that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Story or no story, these stories are coming straight from Wiccan sources. I don't care if Rowlings and her husband attends a church and they have crosses dangling from their ceilings they are wrong. The results of their books and movies are having a deep impact on our children to where they want to become wizards, and they want to go to a Wizard school so they can learn to cast spells.

amen Brother!!!

God bless
charlene

Ron, (Philogos)

"For the record, I have read all the previous 6 and am now reading the 7th. I regard them as obligatory reading for all Christian grandfathers!

I am shocked that you are actually endorsing these books. This is not the kind of thing you should be filling your mind with, especially before you are to speak at the SermonIndex Revival Conference.

Murray

Compliments, ditto.

Not to derail this thread, but people continue to refer to Narnia. I was myself a major fan of C.S. Lewis's series and was introduced to popular Christianity as a young child by his books. Unfortunately I also became involved in the occult, somewhat directly because of the fascination that it and LOTR created in me.

I became quite a fan of Lewis and read more than my share of his books. Unfortunately, after my true conversion, I came to learn disturbing things about Lewis, and I can source you to book and page, if you need.

He defended not only physical evolution, but spiritual evolution. (Carefully read the last chapter of Mere Christianity online) He believed that Christ was birthing "the Christ life" in people of all religions, and allowing them to remain in their religions - Buddhist, Muslim, etc. - to direct people toward the Christ-like path.

He did not necessarily believe in hell, but more of a "cutting away", just as plants die and are no more.

He considered the Bible as "myths more accurate than pagan myths."

He believed verbal confession was necessary to forgiveness.

I don't need to go on... it's just to say that here is a man so accepted, just as Billy Graham (who I have ON VIDEO saying that other unrepentant persons from other religions can be saved) and perhaps things like Narnia are a tell-tale sign of their poison.

I perceive it all as part of the setting for the great apostasy.

Let us not be comfortable with those who make their profit by wasting the Lord's time.

Psalm 101:2-4
[b]
2I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

[u]3I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.[/u]

4A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person. [/b]

Sometimes we see sin in someone's life and it's something they have not been convicted of by the Holy Ghost. If there are no areas of dying to self in a person's life, we need to be very worried about a person's soul. God doesn't deal with all our sins at once. If He did, we'd be perfect at our conversion. For Ian to have given up other things is an encouraging thing and I believe that if he is honest with himself and God, there will come a time when God deals with this or other areas of sin in his life.

Ian, there are many dear saints here who are warning you about this. You may not be convicted to give up these books, but perhaps you need to do it in submission to the brotherhood. About a year ago, I believed that Christian rock music was okay. However, the Christians I respected most all warned against it so I gave it up. I'm glad I did and can now see the effect it had on me.

Also, you seemed at one point to justify reading Harry Potter because you have an extensive Christian library. May I remind you that God was not impressed with the worship of Him when it was mixed with the worship of Baal. Chris

Philologos,

I have intently read much of what you have written here and have been impressed many times by your depth and maturity. I am frankly surprised as well that you would spend the time reading these books especially when we are to have no fellowship with darkness.

Sean

Ron you wrote;

"For the record, I have read all the previous 6 and am now reading the 7th. I regard them as obligatory reading for all Christian grandfathers!"

i suppose you're entitled to this opinion, but as a Christian grandfather myself i find your statement most troubling ... i understand you may think these Potter books obligatory to read, but does our Lord? ... Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the Word of God the only book we're "obligated" to read, and teach to our offspring? ...

An obligation is a debt, who are we (as blood bought saints) indebted to? ... Who does the Potter series magnify? ... Who do they glorify? ... What fellowship do they promote, fellowship with God, or the devil? ... Who is the god of witches, hob-gobblins, sorcerers, and things that go bump in the night? ... When was the last time you heard of any book promoting God getting an initial printing of 12 million just for the U.S. alone, or have people standing in line all night to get it? ... As benign as the world, and Christians such as yourself might think such books, full blown melanoma starts out as but a small spot then the next thing you know it's spread like wildfire and you've got a death sentence ...

Ron i pray somehow Holy Spirit can convict you against your stated obligation, and replace your readings specifically to your grandchildren with Bible stories, or Bible based stories that point ONLY to the glory, praise and honor of God our Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit ... i don't think the following scripture (part of which bro Dom quoted earlier) is too far off base for this topic ...

1Cor.10
[20] But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
[21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
[22] Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
[23] All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

deltadom wrote:

The book does not glorify god! like Dietrich Bonhoffer it promotes witchcraft.

Dietrich promotes witchcraft? Where? In what book?

A bit of my own testimony. I come from a unchurched background. Neither of my parents attends church. My parents let me do whatever I wanted, date whoever I wanted, stay out all night. Their motto was, 'as long as we don't have to come to the police station.'

During highschool I met some Christians who had a major impact on my life. God used these people to help me come out of my anger, vile-temper, lonely and bitter life. Although I don't think I truly accepted Christ at that time, God worked in my life and my heart to change who I was.

However I still felt that I needed to find significance, and sought that significance in relationships. I dated several girls, luckily I still considered myself a Christian and maintained my virginity, but I poluted my mind with lust and popular notions of love.

God didn't let me go though. While in college I became involved with some people who were of the criminal element, I thought they were exciting people because they had money, girls, guns etc. But at the same time, God had brought me into a new church, and started pruning the things in my life.

When I accepted Christ in my Freshman year of college, I stopped dating girls (I haven't been on a date in seven years) because I realized that I had made being in a relationship more significant than my relationship with Christ.

My church leaders encouraged me to quit my jobs, the places where I was mixing with the criminal element. I stopped seeing those friends (which was tough, because it meant giving up a lot of free food).

I moved out of the dorm and moved in with brothers from the church.

I realized I was addicted to television, so I've given up television for at least 5 years.

During highschool I started an online website to translate Japanese comic books into english. I was very successful, and the website that i started has translated over 300 volumes (novel sized) of Japanese comics into english. God put a burden on my heart to give up these comics and the website because they were an idol... I did.

I did very well in international studies in college, and would have had a chance to work abroad, but I felt that if I left Seattle I would be leaving my spiritual family and would suffer spiritually. God provided for me as I trusted in him and stayed in Seattle, leaving my career path.

God also supported me as I gave up my salaried job to work full time with a non-profit Christian Ministry.

Compliments said: I can't believe that so called Christians are reading this trash.

Someone on here has already attacked me as a substandard Christian. Said I was unwilling to give things up. Honestly, this is the short list. Save your judgement.

Yesterday in the car I was listening to Keith Green (I've given up listening to all of my other cds besides Keith and some classical music) and I couldn't help but weeping when I heard the song:

Trials Turned To Gold

He's brought me here, where things are clear, and trials turn to gold.
He shared with me, His victory, He won in days of old.
Oh Lord, I don't deserve, the riches of your word,
But You've changed my filthy rags to linen white as snow.

***

The view from here is nothing near to what it is for You.
I tried to see Your plan for me, but I only acted like I knew.
Oh Lord forgive the times, I tried to read your mind.
Cause you said if I'd be still, then I would hear your voice.

***

My Lord, my King, my urge to sing and praise the things above.
No words can say the glorious way you changed me with your love.

***

He's brought me low, so I could now the way to reach the heights.
To forsake my dreams, my self esteem and give up all my rights.
With each one that I lay down, a jewel's placed in my crown.
Cause His love, the things above, is all we'll ever need.
He's brought me here, where things are clear, and trials turn to gold.

You're quick to call me a 'so called Christian' which makes me feel so absolutely loved. You know nothing about me, or what I have or haven't given up.

I'm actually in the process of selling off my possessions in order to pay off my debts so that I can go to the mission field.

I really don't know if I can come to this forum anymore... there's so much wickeness and darkness here, and little of it is from Harry Potter.

I really don't know if I can come to this forum anymore... there's so much wickeness and darkness here...

Ouch. Strong words my brother.

I've been recieving strong words and critisism through this whole thread. There were some people who definitely crossed that line already.

Dear Brethren,

I do not take lightly issuing a warning to dear brothers who are feeding their spirits and minds on things that our Lord abhors. I am not saying these things in a way that I am all right and they are all wrong. Are we to keep silent when we know our brothers and sisters are participating in things that God finds no pleasure in.

Worm said:

excoriating a good and Godly teacher like Ron Bailey for reading them, so he may answer the questions his young grandchildren pose to him about such drivel.

excoriate means to censure scathingly or to take the skin off

I don't feel that anyone here is doing that, but rather warning a dear brother we have much respect for.

Where did you get the impression that Ron is reading these books solely for the purpose of answering his grandchildren's questions?

I should state that I believe Ron is most qualified to speak at the Revival Conference, but it is my experience that it is better to feed on the Word of God than it is worldly trash in preparation of a speaking engagement which will be a call to holiness and a seperation from the world.

Murray

beloved,
God works in our lives , he calls us to be holy. The is point is simple, dear brother
are these books honoring to Christ? Do these book help you grow deeper in his unfalling love?
Do these book have deadly posion in them?
dear brother we come to with pleas to go to the word, and seek and pray. Listen to hos voice humble and be willing to be worng. God''s ways are best. It is out of love does one warn someone to not eat of something they know will make them sick. Again is one sin greater then aother? No again will we fight to be holy or be fooled by the world that what is good is evil.

in his love
charlene

See what I mean...

EXTREMELY HARSH

It is one thing to rebuke a brother or sister in love to correct them, but you are not doing so. You are not "thanking him." You are condemning him and judging his spirit and authority, based on one sentence.

Saints,

Some examples of correction in the scriptures

Rebuke your neighbour frankly so that you will not share in his guilt.
Leviticus 19:17

When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumsision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
Galatians 2:11-14

He who heeds discipline shows the way to life, but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.
Proverbs 10:17

Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction.
2 Timothy 4:2

And finally

Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him if he were your father.
1 Timothy 5:1

Ron,

I am sorry if anything I have said was harsh, sometimes my zeal consumes me. You should at least be given the opportunity to comment further on what you have written.

In Love,

Murray

I read these post today. I went away just wanting to cry. brother I ask you what is Holiness? What is SIN?
We don't stay away from these books, because they are books. No they are sinful and wicked and full of evil. How can I say that dear brother how does our God see sin? What does his word say? How can we love what God hates, this make my heart heavy and weep. Let God bring us to our faces and weep. God is Holy, dear Brother Holy. He hates sin. How long will we hold on to what is evil and call it good? How long dear brother let us repent and turn to God. But please let God's word speak in your life. Hear our love I plea.

Holy Father our words are just words, But Jesus your word is powerful and full of life. Jesus I ask that every word that is spoken by me and others will be yours coming through us Jesus I ask that you humble our hearts. Jesus let us see our sin. Let truth set us free from the our ways. Oh Jesus I know it hurts but God I ask let us die to our self. Let us die to our ways our loves oh God come in our hearts to desire to be holy. Holy KIng Lord of Lords and King of Kings Jesus we want our lives to give to your glory. Father please I ask of you help us to live holy lives. Again I ask let us repent of our wicked ways. father forgive us for loving what you hate Jesus change our hearts. Jesus somtimes we can't see our sins. Please by your grace open eyes to let truth shine in our lives. Jesus get the glory. We fight for your fame and glory of your name. Jesus use us to speak truth with power and love. Humble us, bring us to our knees. amen

Brother please hear Gods word..

"But we were gentle among you,like a nursing mother taking care of her own children. So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us." 1 thess 2:7-8

"They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them. It is always good to be made much of for a good purpose, and not only when I am present with you, my little children,for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone, for I am perplexed about you." Gal 4 : 17-20

I wish we could change our tone, but truth be told we are perplexed about you. Don't you hear our love?

We have spoken out love, nothing less nothing more,

"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."
Gal 6:1

In the word with a gentle spirit we are to warn you.. Again out of love

" As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,"
1 Tim 1:3-6

"I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of ages,immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance withthe prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith," 1 Tim 1:12-19

" If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity."

this what we are commanded to teach

"But as for you, O man of God, flee these things.Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,"

are men of God who fight the good fight and flee wickedness? Holy and prue lives are of these men?

" 16But I say,walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;against such things there is no law. 24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." gal 5:16-24
Dear brother we need to walk in the spirit

" If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him."
James 1:5
So then brother if we lack wisdom may we ask!!

" 1What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passion are at war within you? 2You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3You ask and do not receive, because you ask, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." James 4:1-4

we need to look at our hearts.. Humble brother is in the spirit.

"Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you."
James 4:8-10
Dear brother let this draw you closer to christ.

"Some Will Depart from the Faith
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2through the insincerity ofliars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
A Good Servant of Christ Jesus
If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; 8for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come." 2 Tim 4:1-8

May this not be us!!

Saints,

Another scripture I was reading today that seemed fitting to this -

"Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing."

Deuteronomy 7:26

Murray

Sorry this a really long article, but I'm hoping it will help clear things up. If you want to look at the footnotes here is the link:

http://www.visionforum.com/hottopics/newsletters/newsletter.aspx?id=07-22-05

Jordan

By Douglas W. Phillips
As well as being extraordinarily popular, the [Harry Potter] books have encouraged millions of children to start reading for the first time.... For those who have a problem with the idea of fantasy and alternative universes alongside ours, we need to recognize that almost all children play imaginative games in their minds starting at a very young age and have no difficulty whatsoever in distinguishing between fantasy and reality.... Additionally, the Harry Potter books send a strong message about moral order. There are beautiful and enjoyable human relationships among the characters, and there is a depth of commitment and service among them.... Finally, I see the books as valuable because they consistently include the three fundamental themes that can be found as a subtext in almost all good literature: the beauty of creation, the appalling reality of evil, and the universal human longing for redemption.... J.K. Rowling does not profess to be a Christian, as far as I am aware, but she has insight into the themes that are at the very heart of what Christians understand to be true about the nature of the universe in which we live.... All truth is God’s truth, and non-Christians recognize that truth to one degree or another.... It is said that because magic is a part of the ... books, they may have the effect of interesting children in the reality of the Occult.... The magic is simply a part of the imaginative worlds.... Some people have gone on record as stating that they believe that J.K. Rowling is purposely and explicitly teaching Occult and even Satanic practice. As a Christian, I have to say I am profoundly ashamed of those who have responded with this kind of malicious gossip. We must recognize that whenever she talks about evil magic she presents it as evil. (Jerram Barr, Professor of Christianity and Contemporary Culture and Resident Scholar at The Francis Schaeffer Institute)[1]

Breaking News
This morning, the publishing industry surprised the world by releasing a new, unexpected companion volume to last week’s sixth installment of J.K. Rowling’s hugely successful Harry Potter series. As word of the new release spread like wildfire, crowds of frenzied children and teenagers began thronging at the doors of hundreds of local bookstores in the United States and U.K., hoping to be among the first to receive their own copy of a book bearing the title: Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade.
Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade continues to perpetuate all the sorceries, incantations, and spells which have delighted children around the world. But this installment of Harry Potter introduces a new theme — homosexuality. In Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade, we discover that the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is expanding its curriculum base to provide mandatory training in homosexuality for all of its recruits. Harry discovered in Book One that he was born with witchcraft in his blood. Now, recent discoveries show that the same students born with the gift of magic also possess a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality. With this in mind, the goal of Hogwarts is to teach its students the proper and moral way to be homosexual witches. Students must learn about safety, monogamy, and even social etiquette.
But the race is on. A second witch training academy run by evil witches has also discovered their own homosexual predispositions. Unlike Hogwarts, they intend to use their homosexuality for evil. They teach their students evils like sexual promiscuity. They openly encourage pedophilia. It is the mission of Harry and his intrepid gang of sodomite warlocks and lesbian witches (dubbed “The Lavender Brigade”) to once again stop the menace of bad witches.

No Cause for Concern
Perhaps some Christians have concerns about children’s literature in which homosexuality is both a defining characteristic of the protagonists and a thematic element which runs from beginning to the end of the novel.
Relax. Don’t be so uptight. Don’t worry, Christian parents. Harry Potter is not the real world! It is an imaginary world. Children know the difference between the two. They are not going to start dressing up like their heroes or pretending to do the same things their heroes do in the stories. After all, it is just a pretend story. Thoughtful Christian critics will recognize that the author has created an alternative reality with a completely different set of rules. Sodomy may be wrong in the real world, but it is not wrong in Harry Potter’s reality, and it would be sophomoric to think that, just because the book is one long story about the glories of good homosexuality in the world of Harry Potter, that it desensitizes children to the problems with homosexuality in the real world. We should be ashamed of any Christians who would claim the author is promoting perversion. She makes strong distinctions between good homosexuality and bad homosexuality. Bad homosexuality is always presented as really bad.
And here is the clincher: Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade is a brilliant, well-written adventure that includes all the great themes of classic literature — the creation of an alternative reality where different rules apply, a carefully-executed plot, and clear elements of good versus evil. The story presents the beauty of creation and the appalling reality of evil. (Keep in mind that all truth is God’s truth.) There is even a strong redemption theme in the story as the leader of the pro-pedophilia group realizes the wrongness of his ways and joins the good sodomites of Hogwarts. In the end, good sodomites triumph over bad sodomites and order is restored to the alternative universe.

Confession
Okay, so there is no Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade. I made it up.
What I have not made up is the fact that Pottermania has engulfed the youth of a generation, setting an unprecedented frenzy of sales of the recent installment, Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince.[2] Within the first twenty-four hours of its release, nearly seven million copies were sold in the United States alone. Assuming a 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. sales schedule, that means they averaged nearly 600,000 copies an hour.
Also not made up is the fact that there are growing numbers of intelligent, reasonable, Christian teachers and scholars — some are friends whom I dearly love and respect — who are on record as giving their blessing to Harry Potter and supporting the inclusion of Harry Potter books as a healthy, positive part of the literary diet of Christian children. I disagree with them for many reasons, but it is the limited purpose of this article to focus in on and address what I see as their root argument.

The Argument for Potter
To begin with, there really is no debate between us over the basic facts of the Potter series. We all agree that Harry Potter is a story about young children engaged in the study and practice of witchcraft. The heroes of the stories are always good witches. Typically, the bad guys are bad witches. Second, in fairness, it must be acknowledged that these men recognize the wickedness of the occult and would squarely oppose the practice of witchcraft in the real world. None of them would want their children attempting to cast spells or dabbling in the dark arts.
What, then, is the fundamental argument employed by honorable Christian thinkers like Mr. Barr of Covenant Seminary (cited above) to endorse Harry Potter and to justify the creation of children’s books which are simply drenched in the glorification of sorcery?
It is this: Fantasy worlds are not the real world. Authors need not follow the same moral rules in fantasy realities. Things which are downright wicked in the real world may be introduced in a fantasy world and presented as good, if this literary device helps to serve the broader purpose of telling a great story.
My question is: If we may bend God’s moral laws in fantasy realities, then why is “Harry the Hero-Witch” okay for our children, but “Harry the Hero-Homosexual” not?
Both witchcraft and perversion are deemed “works of the flesh” and “abominations” in Scripture.[3] Both are immoral acts for which the practitioner stands condemned. Why would one be cute, fun, appealing, and — most importantly — legitimate in a fantasy reality, and the other unacceptable?

Not for Debate Today
Before presenting my argument, please permit me to clear away some debris.
First, it is not my purpose today to offer a broad-sweeping critique of the propriety and/or impropriety, strengths and/or weaknesses of fantasy as a genre. This is a worthy, big, important subject, but not my subject for the day. Nor am I arguing that because something is popular it is therefore inescapably evil. (I happen to like ice cream, and it does not bother me that ninety percent of Americans like it, too.) Mass entertainment appeal can raise concerns, but this argument will not carry the day one way or another.
Nor am I going to argue that Harry Potter is bad because it presents bad attitudes toward authority. To the extent that the bad attitudes of protagonists are either left unresolved in the story or presented to the reader as acceptable behavior — that is a big problem. But if this debate were really about bad attitudes, our criticism for Harry Potter would be similar in kind to that which might be expressed for 95% of the popular children’s literature and television programming of our day — media which is contributing by bad example to the discipleship in selfishness of a nation of bratty, disrespectful boys and girls.
Nor is it my purpose today to justify or condemn the Harry Potter series by comparing it to, or distinguishing it from, The Lord of the Rings or The Chronicles of Narnia. Similarities and distinctions between these series abound, but at the end of the day, neither the brilliant C.S. Lewis nor the ingenious J.R.R. Tolkien are the standard by which literature is to be judged. That standard is the revealed word of God alone which is a sufficient guide for all of faith and practice, including the development of biblical principles for evaluating literature. If either Lewis or Tolkien are guilty of employing literary devices inconsistent with a biblical worldview, then to the extent which they have missed the mark, we must be willing to say so. If not, great! But at all costs, we must not allow sentiment and experientialism to drive our theology. The issue is not whether Tolkien, Lewis, Rowling, or any other author can tell a great story, foster creative thinking, or entertain the reader — but whether they have done so lawfully.
I am less concerned with slippery-slope arguments, psychological arguments, or even empirical data about the number of children who have joined covens after reading Harry Potter. Some of the arguments are valid, some less so, some may be straw men, but none of these arguments are necessary if it can be demonstrated that, in its premise and execution, Harry Potter is inherently unbiblical, being in plain violation of the revealed law of God.

To Be Debated Today
The question is this: Is it biblically lawful to create alternative literary realities in which necromancy and witchcraft are presented as glorious, healthy, positive, and good?[4]
I say no because I believe to do so is inconsistent with revealed law. If pro-witchcraft fantasy realities are unlawful, then the fundamental question of whether Harry Potter is healthy literature is resolved.
Stated another way, the question is: Does the creation of “alternative fantasy realities” allow authors to employ literary premises which declare “good” that which God has declared morally reprehensible in the real world?
And another: If certain acts are abominations over which God pronounces the death sentence in the real world, should Christians glory in the same abominable practices when presented as desirable and declared to be “good” in the fantasy worlds of literature?

The Case Against Potter
The case that I would like to respectfully make in response to my brothers who defend Harry Potter is built on four propositions:
The seriousness of God’s prohibition on witchcraft and His declaration that it is immoral to practice dark arts make it unlawful even to pretend that witchcraft is a good thing;
Man may not lawfully escape the righteous rule of God by entering fantasy realities in which the law of God does not apply;
To create fantasy universes built on propositions which are immoral is to undermine the character of God Himself or establish false gods; and
God holds man accountable for vain imaginations. This means that fantasy is only lawful insofar as it does not undermine the moral law of God.

Point #1: The Seriousness of God’s Prohibition on Witchcraft
When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD.... (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
The Bible, both Old and New Testament, has much to say about witchcraft, all of which is supremely negative. In anticipation of nitpickers and legalists who want to wiggle out of the prohibition against witchcraft, the Bible details by specific precept and numerous examples the wickedness of those who seek such supernatural powers and the judgment that will fall upon them.
The prohibitions against witchcraft elaborate to include witchcraft in any form or expression. Sorcerers, mediums, soothsayers, spell-casters, astrologers, and those who practice any dark art fall under the prohibition.
Witchcraft is declared to be an abomination (Exodus 22:18; Deuteronomy 8:9-12; 1 Samuel 15:23; Isaiah 8:19-20). Those who practice it are in rebellion against God (1 Samuel 15:23) and were subject to the death penalty (Exodus 22:18). They will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21), are detestable to the Lord (2 Kings 21:6; Micah 5:12; Isaiah 47:12; Ezekiel 13:18,20; Acts 8:11-24; Leviticus 20:27; Exodus 7:11; Revelation 9:21; 22:15), and will be cast into the burning lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).
Furthermore, God describes sorcery as an immoral “work of the flesh” and lumps it in with idolatry, murder, and adultery, declaring that those who do such will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21; Revelation 9:21).
The biblical response of God’s people to witchcraft is to (1) drive it from the land (Deuteronomy 18:9-12); (2) flee from every vestige of it, even if this means publicly burning expensive books (Acts 19:19); and (3) rebuke attempts to mix the spirit of sorcery with the spirit of Christ (Acts 8:1-40).

Point #2: Man May Never Escape the Righteous Rule of God
Supernatural powers, by definition, are the means to suspend or work outside of the natural law order created by God.[5] Our God reserves supernatural powers to Himself because He alone is the creator and the object of worship. He will share His glory with none other. Witchcraft is an abomination, not because of some arbitrary, localized principle applicable only to ancient Israel, but because it is rebellion against God Himself, who never, ever changes. Witchcraft is man’s attempt to be like God. It can involve the explicit false worship of devils, but it need not. Conjuring, sorcery, and divination are all attempts to have powers reserved to God. They are attempts to live outside of the reality in which God has placed man.
I am frankly amazed at the efforts of some to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel when it comes to the issue of witchcraft. It truly seems like we are often more interested in justifying the theology of Walt Disney, than we are in sticking to the plain teaching of Scripture. The fact is that the Bible makes no distinctions between cute, harmless sorcery (or necromancy or divination) and a bad kind. Any attempt to participate or dabble in supernatural dark arts is a crime in God’s universe. You can dress up cute little fairies in bonnets, but the minute they attempt to cast spells or invoke supernatural powers reserved to God, they become moral criminals.
Note that we are not discussing fiction about potential scientific discoveries. The exploration of the natural universe is explicitly given to man by God as a means of understanding Him better and for executing his duty under God to take dominion over the earth. And let’s not kid ourselves — Harry Potter is not about scientific children who create amazing flying-broom machines. It is about sorcerers engaged in witchcraft. Under the Hebrew economy, Harry Potter, the great hero of a generation of children, would be put to death[6] by direct order of the King of Kings and author of all reality — Jesus Christ Himself.
Nor are we criticizing Harry Potter for the inclusion of talking animals in its storyline. The Bible begins[7] and ends[8] with revelations about talking animals, a fact which establishes beyond any doubt that the inclusion of talking animals in storytelling is not per se an abomination which assaults the very character of God. Similarly, dragons,[9] demons,[10] giants,[11] and unicorns[12] may be the stuff of fantasy lore, but they are also real creatures discussed, as such, in the Bible. None of these elements assault the righteous rule of God, but a fantasy universe filled with “good sorcerers” does.

Point #3: Man May Not Refashion a God of His Own Imagination — Even in a Fantasy Reality
The eternal quest of rebellious man is to escape the law and dominion of God. Man wants to create realities of his own where he is free to operate without the constraint of the rule of law as prescribed by God. The moral law of God and its application in the universe reflect the eternal, transcendent, immutable character of God Himself.[13] Consequently, those who seek to create alternative realities in which the moral law of God is suspended are, in fact, creating alternative realities governed by something or someone other than the God of the Bible. This god need not be explicitly revealed by name. He can be implied or simply assumed. Even the perceived absence of a god in an alternative reality presupposes some unifying, eternal, transcendent principle or “force.” The point is this: Every alternative reality has a god. Those alternative realities which alter the moral law of the God of the Bible thereby substitute a false god as lord over the universe they have created.
Like the Babel-builders of the past, twenty-first century man is discontent with the rules and realities given to him by God. He wants a different reality. It is the quest of some fantasy literature to satisfy this ungodly longing by recreating God in man’s own image. This happens when we construct literary worlds which rest on propositions which challenge the very character of God Himself.
Note that the use of allegories, parables, types, and symbolism can be employed in literature lawfully and to the glory of God. Jesus Christ modeled this Himself in Holy Scripture.[14] Christ-honoring authors may draw from a host of techniques and circumstances when employing such literary devices. But the moment an author redefines the moral law order of the universe, he has left the realm of legitimate analogical reasoning and creative allegory, and has declared war on God. This is the case for fantasy realities in which murder, perversion, or witchcraft are presented as good things.
The character of God is challenged when we posit alternative realities which redefine the moral law order of God to allow men to delight in that which would be deemed wickedness in the real world. Creating worlds of good witchcraft versus bad witchcraft is a prime example of the problem. No such world can exist — anywhere — not even in our own imagination, without redefining the nature and attributes of God Himself. The essence of witchcraft and the desire to employ the tools of witchcraft are an assault on the Lordship and sovereignty of God. By virtue of the fact that Harry and his friends are “good guys” in pursuit of the very powers reserved to God Himself in the real world, the god of Harry Potter’s universe is, ispo facto, a different god than the God of our universe.
And no one need ask, “What Would Jesus Do?” in the real world to Harry and his friends, because the Bible answers the question with deafening specificity:
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

Point #4: The Bible Forbids Not Merely Acts, But Vain Imaginations
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? (Psalm 2:1)
Not all imagination is wrong, but vain imagination is wrong. A “vain imagination” is one in which man seeks to create a reality at war with God and His law.
We live in a world in which millions of men and women leave what they perceive to be a humdrum life of marriage to escape into a fantasy-world of alternative reality. They do this in their minds.[15] They are aided and abetted in this practice by literature, images, and film which become the mediator between the individual and the fantasy world. In their alternative fantasy realities, these men and women are not married to their boring, overweight, selfish wives and husbands. Instead, they are able to enjoy intimate relations, free of guilt, with seemingly perfect individuals who appear nearly superhuman in their emotional and physical perfections. Since this is only a fantasy — the argument goes — there is nothing wrong with it. Some argue that modern man can actually cope better in the real world if he regularly visits his fantasy world.[16]
Christian advocates of Harry Potter make the same mistake: In effect, they are arguing that little children may freely take witchcraft into their hearts by identifying with their sorcerer-hero and rejoicing in his magical powers — just so long as they would not engage in dark arts in the real world. After all, little children know the difference between reality and fiction.
This response misses the point. The Bible offers no refuge to the individual who says, “It is okay for me to imagine and rejoice in the vanity of immoral speculations, because I am not doing it in the real world.” If you imagine such things in your heart, you stand condemned. The Lord Jesus Christ answered those legalists who wanted to limit the scope of the culpability before the law to the physical world. He explained that they would be condemned for having wicked imaginations in their fantasy world as well:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:27-28)
The same principle that applies to pornographic literature applies to witchcraft-glorifying literature. Men do not have the right to enter fantasy worlds in which they delight in their hearts in acts of adultery. Nor do they have the right to enter fantasy worlds in which they delight in immoral acts of witchcraft.

The Use of Witchcraft in Literature and Entertainment
For the record, I do not oppose the appropriate inclusion of witchcraft in literature. The Bible tells the story of actual witches. It describes the practices of these witches and reveals the laws against witchcraft. We learn of the divinations of Jezebel,[17] the consultation by Saul with the witch of Endor,[18] and the influence and rebuke of Simon the Sorcerer.[19] Witchcraft is in Old and New Testaments. But witchcraft is always presented as an incontrovertible evil.
Just as there is nothing funny, glorious, or desirable about adultery, perversion, or murder — there is nothing funny, glorious, or desirable about witchcraft (see Galatians 4:24).[20] It is one thing for a story to include adultery, perversion, murder, and witchcraft in their true despicable form as an element necessary to make a righteous point, but it is another to portray abominations as virtues. Any television show, film, or literature which does the latter is encouraging others to identify in their imaginations with evil.
To put it bluntly: Bewitched — bad! Walt Disney’s Merlin from Sword in the Stone — bad! Glinda the Good Witch of Oz — bad! The White Witch of Narnia — not necessarily bad at all, because she is presented as the incarnation of evil. Gandalf? You will have to do the math yourself.[21]

Concessions
At this point, I am losing some of you. You have cherished fond childhood memories of these icons of twentieth-century culture. There is massive sentimental value associated with these stories. If the principles articulated in this paper are true, then there could be some substantial boat-rocking in your life — perhaps even some changes in your reading or viewing diet. I hear you. My own boat has been substantially rocked over the years as I have considered the implications of the character of God and His law-word upon the icons of modern culture.
Let me offer a little help and a few concessions:
Concession number one: There are some genuine challenges and tough calls involved when evaluating what constitutes Christ-honoring literature. I fully recognize the complexity of faithfully applying these principles, for example, to the use of various literary devices that appear to incorporate mysterious transportation vehicles or tools which possess unusual powers. Meditation, prayer, and reasoned analysis are the need of the hour. Faithful men may disagree on some applications. But the challenge of application never absolves us of our personal duty before the Lord to rigorously examine everything in light of Scripture.
Second, there is not a man on the planet who is perfectly consistent in the application of the biblical principles he understands, let alone the ones with which he is grappling. Here again, the fact that there are inconsistencies in our behavior, or holes in our thinking, does not relieve us of the biblical duty to become more consistent in the application of our Christianity as we take every thought, frame, and note — everything — captive to the obedience of Christ.
Third, many Christians are uncomfortable tossing out an otherwise “good story” because it has one offensive element. I certainly understand this challenge. For some, the answer is to perform a balancing test which weighs the good against the bad to see which comes out on top. But when it comes to Harry Potter, no balancing act is needed. This consideration need not apply. Why? Because the premise of the stories is witchcraft, the plot of the story is witchcraft, and the protagonists are all witches. From beginning to end, Harry Potter is a story immersed in a subversive lie about a genuine abomination called witchcraft. Period! Harry Potter calls evil good, and thus falls under the explicit censure of our Lord.

Conclusion
Harry Potter favorably models for children that which the Bible clearly and unequivocally declares to be an abomination.[22] It creates heroes of a class of individuals that the Bible declares to be villains. In the world that God created, the heroes of Harry Potter would (absent their repentance) be enemies of the Church and eternally damned souls.
Moral evil does not become acceptable simply because it is presented in an alternative reality. There is no such thing as good witchcraft, good bestiality, good sodomy, good child sacrifice, or good Dagon worship in this reality (the only reality created by God); and man is not at liberty to free himself from the law of God by concocting fantasy worlds of his imagination in which the transcendent, eternal, binding moral law of God no longer applies.
Finally, the Bible, not sentimentalism or personal experience, is the only standard by which the Christian may evaluate his culture.[23] By this standard, Harry Potter fails the test of biblical acceptability. Just as Christians should oppose the glorified homosexuality of a hypothetical Harry Potter and the Lavender Brigade, so they should also recognize the systemic poison of any and all Potter books that are built on the false proposition that witchcraft can be a good thing.
But these two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day: The loss of children, and widowhood. They shall come upon you in their fullness because of the multitude of your sorceries, for the great abundance of your enchantments. (Isaiah 47:9)

But these two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day: The loss of children, and widowhood. They shall come upon you in their fullness because of the multitude of your sorceries, for the great abundance of your enchantments. (Isaiah 47:9)

God give us eyes to see and ears to hear before it's too late... Everything we do, say or see does it bring Glory to God? Does it Glorify God?

Holy Spirit Consume us in your fire and only that of God remain....

Your Sister in Jesus, Weeping and Alarmed!
Coffee

Some quotes from the article posted by HomeFree89

The question is this: Is it biblically lawful to create alternative literary realities in which necromancy and witchcraft are presented as glorious, healthy, positive, and good?[4]

Just as there is nothing funny, glorious, or desirable about adultery, perversion, or murder — there is nothing funny, glorious, or desirable about witchcraft (see Galatians 4:24).[20] It is one thing for a story to include adultery, perversion, murder, and witchcraft in their true despicable form as an element necessary to make a righteous point, but it is another to portray abominations as virtues. Any television show, film, or literature which does the latter is encouraging others to identify in their imaginations with evil.

Moral evil does not become acceptable simply because it is presented in an alternative reality. There is no such thing as good witchcraft, good bestiality, good sodomy, good child sacrifice, or good Dagon worship in this reality (the only reality created by God); and man is not at liberty to free himself from the law of God by concocting fantasy worlds of his imagination in which the transcendent, eternal, binding moral law of God no longer applies.

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Ezekiel 8:

17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Ezekiel 9:

4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house

God everyday lets us choose life or death I pray we choose LIFE!

Holy Spirit CONSUME us in YOUR FIRE and only that of GOD remain ....

Your Sister in Jesus
Coffee

thank you dorcas,
keep bring the word. may God's word be powerful in our hearts. The word is what show what is right and wrong. Dear beloved do we want to be Holy? or call evil good?
Do we sin, so we can understand sin? That is foolish! What is Sin? again how does God veiw Sin? How can you stay this good? How when we see in Gods word it is evil. How? If I or a pastor for 20 years is in sin. He or I are in sin, please don't call it something eles. yes with a loving spirit we are show them the word. How long will love our sins? Repent! Sin is Huge!
God have mercy on us, help us to humble our hearts and see and feel sin as you do. Oh God help us to really want to be a people who want to holy oh God let us stop talking about but be doers of the word. Lord help us to see our sins. Jesus pour your grace on us. Let your word that has been posted not over looked. Oh God help us to obey the word. Let us fear you God. Bring us to our faces. Jesus you are our King. We love you father help turn from all evil ways. Father we want to call on you with a pure heart. amen

Worm,

I don't believe you need to tell Compliments to be ashamed of himself, he already apologized for his tone.

And to say this is all "over a lousy stupid piece of fiction drivel that doesn't matter nothing" is not accurate. Why do you suppose this topic has elicited such a response. Our separation from the world is a crucial part of our walk. We are to come out from them and touch no unclean thing.

And I suppose we are the religionists of today that would not discern a true man of God.

I find much of your comments very antagonistic in a covert manner.

I won't be having a blessed time at the Revival Conference because my pardon has not come through yet, I am not allowed entry into the United States because of violence, drugs and gang affiliation before I was regenerated.

I still love ya though, and I am not just saying that!

Murray

I would appreciate an answer to this question: Is Harry Potter of God?????

Ian? anybody?

I don't believe you need to tell Compliments to be ashamed of himself, he already apologized for his tone.

I agree borther !

Now I can see how he might have said it harsh if you might say so. But fact still is the same
what is sin is SIN!!!

we are NEVER to make small of sin,

Please let us not go down the road of being those who have teacher that fit my our own desires. But we want truth even if it hurts.
If we are walking with Christ with a humble spirit we will be faced with sin, and yes it will hurt. Oh but it is a good thing. Are we not to walk in the foot steps of Christ. Is not our prayer makes more like Christ.

Leting the light on Sin isn't bad thing.

I praise God for each of you brothers who are bring the word, and speaking truth,, father please be with my brothers help them to speak with love and kindness. help them God to know what words to use and what words not to use father I ask you help us to fight for holiness. oh Jesus let us not be ashamed of what is truth.
Please help these men hear your voice and not the voice of men in these post. Help us Jesus we need you. here and now. We want to be holy. oh Jesus we long to be holy it is a joy to be holy
father help your sons to fight and live holy lives, father help to have wisdom were it is needed. Let us cast down our evil ways. father start in me, if sin is evil and wicked let me see my wicked ways, let me repent let us repent
let us long to be like you, to think on what is holy. again Lord we want your name to be honored.
Jesus you want us to be holy keep doing our work in our lives. Let this start a fire in our souls to love you more. To see how worthy you are. Please let us see what is evil as evil lord
thank you for being our King thank you for being faithful even when we are not. Thank you be with each post guided by your spirit. amen

Brothers and Sisters,

I've read through this entire post and I have to say I'm disturbed by the thought that some think the HP series to be just fiction and so therefore, is harmless. Any time any form of entertainment is openly showing witchcraft in any form, whether it be done in humour or in a serious way, it is not neutral. It opens a door.

As I was reading through this thread, I thought back on my childhood and how I was fascinated with witches. I loved "Bewitched". Remember that show? At 5 years old, I would go down the staircase with my broom when the show was over. I wanted to be able to wiggle my nose like Samatha.

As I got older I began to read more on witches, mostly fiction. I recall one book specifically I read about 4 times. I would have been about 9 or 10 which I imagine is the same age as the kids reading the HP books today. Being opened up to the world of the occult from this, by the time I was 11 or 12, I was figuring out how to do astrology. Again, it was all available at the library.

What is frightening about these HP novels, is that it is Witchcraft 101 packaged in an interesting story. The story and the characters are fiction, but the things in it are real witchcraft, not pretend. Of the snippets that I have seen and heard, it is spiritually dangerous.

Last summer, one morning standing at the bus stop was a lady from my building and her 9 year old son who just loved the HP books. He told us that morning that he wanted to put a curse on someone at school. That is the fruit of this entertainment. It is planting ungodly thoughts and ideas into spiritually open children.

If you think this fiction is just harmless fun and games, think again. It is a shiny poisoned apple that the world has bitten into.

I'll close with this thought:

1 John 2:15 "Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

Blessings,

Bereangirl

vico wrote:
I would appreciate an answer to this question: Is Harry Potter of God?????

No. Absolutely no. I am utterly amazed at some of the things said in this thread. Utterly amazed.

No amount of compromise is acceptable...

HP series definetly opens a person up to vulnerability to the occult...I just went head to head on that with someone the other day. I stood my ground and said I will NEVER approve of this sort of thing...and I told him he has put his whole family in a dangerous position by even allowing that sort of material in his home.

I have "zero tolerance" for any mode of entertainment sending messages of witchcraft disquised as a harmless piece of fantasy....

[b]Bro Krisp you wrote;[/b]

"Do I recommend Harry Potter to Christians? Absolutely not. I believe a Christian violates Phillipians 4:8 depending on their reason for reading it. But thats between the believer and God."

--- i agree if the thing that seems to cause offence is kept between the saint and God, but i think many of us miss the point entirely that we also have a responsibility to our fellow brethren/man as the following scripture suggests ...

[b]Rom.14
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
[14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
[15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of:[/b]

i think that there are some gray areas (something not pointedly spoken against in scripture) as this scripture suggests that one saint may indulge in the liberty of (like eating meat, esteeming days, smoking cigars, or having a little nip every now and then), whereas to other saints such liberty is anti Christlike ... This is something i became very aware of as a huge difference between the accepted liberty of Baptists and Pentecostals ... But somehow i don't think reading, or seeing Harry Potter, especially with your grandchildren, falls into this gray category, even if we choose to do it anyhow ... For arguments sake, and i think it a stretch, lets say that it's lawful to fill our heads
with such literature - but then the scripture goes on to ask (and i think only a muture saint can submit to this) is it expedient, is it governed of our Lord or of our own self interest? ... This is another area in which i believe our rabid American individualism gets in the way and fights against the unifying effort of Holy Spirit to get us back to thinking in Christian community, for very few understand that our individual actions affect the whole of The Body in some way (even if we don't see it first hand) ...

You know in my post to Ron i started to ask him was his post sort of a trick ... Maybe so, but i think he meant what he wrote ... If he didn't perhaps he'll come back and clear it up ... But to me i think his post re: Potter did exactly as Rom. 14:16 states to the point that his "good" is now in question from some, and let me add for the record i don't think the concerns and/or the negative reactions are necessarily because the questioners are weak in this particular instance, tho maybe guilty
of a little impassioned zeal ... For all of us, thank God for 1 John 1:9!

[b]PS - And if anyone has been stumbled by all of this, get unstumbled by taking your eyes off this and getting them back on to where they belong: JESUS, and YOUR OWN "one on one" relationship with Him because somewhere along the line we to (wittingly or unwittingly) will also be a stumbling block to someone else, ever keeping in mind what Rom.14: [12] says, "every one of us shall give account of himself to God." ... Amen? ---[/b]

richardf wrote:
I would comment, but I'll only get rained down on by people that think they have the answers to everything.

Probably the wisest decision! :-P

I would comment, but I'll only get rained down on by people that think they have the answers to everything.

Just as all knowing as many of the other comments on this thread.

*Edit* :-)

Just thought it was funny.
You knew what the ones that knew everything would do. :-)

richardf wrote:
plus... Harry Potter is fine.

:-P

LOL...here we go again...

here is
audio listen it isn't on Hp
But it is good..

http://www.loveasu.com/uofaprayer/au.mp3

Here's a part of paul washer sermon... do we hate what God hates?

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=14038561

in his love
charlene

Here's a part of paul washer sermon... do we hate what God hates?

I think this is the most important question of all... :-o

Bonhoeffer, while holding to a Biblical view of salvation, was extremely ecumenical.

Bonhoeffer was a student and disciple of [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=13933]Karl Barth.[/url]

I hope you can
take my words and descriptions of these books without reading them or hearing portions of them. I read enough of
them to get a good idea of what they are about, and I copied down a couple of short excerpts.

Ron,

Can you tell me as a follower of Christ, what I can glean from the Harry Potter books to edify myself with?

Murray

Having read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's 'The Cost of Discipleship' and 'Life Together' I would say that many of the accusations leveled at him are simply false. He had an intimate knowledge of grace that is so exhilerating!

He was one of the first two write at any great length about what he called, 'cheap grace.' Argueing that the protestant church had become almost as bad as the Catholic church in stamping 'saved' on the foreheads of it's congregations but ignoring the requirements that Jesus has for a life as his disciple (thus the book the Cost of Discipleship).

The problem is that people believe negative things they've heard about him being in the ecumenical movement and ignore his writings which take aim at that same movement... he had a biblical view of the bible, and loved Jesus with every fiber of his body. This is evident from his book, 'Life Together.'

Can you tell me as a follower of Christ, what I can glean from the Harry Potter books to edify myself with?

Well, try to regard it as Science Fiction rather than occult. All those fancy things that the 'Replicator' can do on the Enterprise Harry Potter does with words and flicks of the wand. It is not a glorification of magic but of courage and resource. HP, so far, has won through not because of his superior 'magic' but because of his bravery and 'love'.

It is a classic 'good' versus 'evil' theme. The reason that the Evil opponents curses have not worked against HP is that HP is protected by the stronger 'magic' of the fact that someone loved him enough to give their life for him, apparently the Evil can't overcome that kind of love. Give you any ideas how you might use that idea in talking to your grandchildren? ;-)

The 'magic' of HP is not occult but mechanistic. It is no more 'occult' than a fairy tale, in my view.

I don't really want to justify or defend the books, my original post was just an echo of...

[color=0033FF]“Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?” (John 7:51 NKJV)[/color]

The last time i did this ...

[b]SATAN! ... THE LORD REBUKE YOU ON SI! ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4891&forum=35&7

... the thread got locked (which may become the merciful outcome for this one if the Spirit of Christ in reasoning together as brethren can't be exemplified) ...

But if God is not the author of confusion, then who is ... What i'm posting here is not directed to anyone in particular, or for that matter to this natural realm period (Eph. 6:12), so if you're offended by it let me say in love that perhaps you're in need of a spirit(s) check ...

[b]So ... again ... i come against every foul, abusive, wicked and unclean spirit for whatever the reason that you've been drawn to this thread, and i cast you out, whether you're in or on your host, by the power of the Blood of Christ ... And i call upon Holy Spirit to either supernaturally banish you from this site , or to convict you to repentance from your foul condition if in fact you're already saved, or unto salvation if you're not ... And yes our Lord has given me enough faith to call it done right now in the name of Jesus, and His power in this direction will only increase as other like minded saints touch and agree with this prayer ... Devil(s) i take authority over you, and command you, in the mighty name of Jesus of Nazareth, and by the power of Christ shed blood on Calvary, and the might of Holy Spirit, the same loosing outworking of Acts 16: 16-18 and Mark 5: 2-8 ... Amen [/b]

Having read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's 'The Cost of Discipleship' and 'Life Together' I would say that many of the accusations leveled at him are simply false. He had an intimate knowledge of grace that is so exhilerating!

Frances Schaeffer said that the watershed of evangelicalsim was inerrancy. I believe he was right and evangelicalsim is in a deep slide away from that conviction, which is one of the reasons, I suspect, that evangelicals are now quoting Barth and Bonhoeffer much more frequently.

Did you read the URL that I gave about Barthian theology?

Ron you wrote ...

"Well, try to regard it as Science Fiction rather than occult. All those fancy things that the 'Replicator' can do on the Enterprise Harry Potter does with words and flicks of the wand."

Flicks of the "wand"? ... Not trying to be rude, but out of concern are you having a spiritual breakdown? ... Ron do you hear what you just posted? ... :-?

So ... again ... i come against every foul, abusive, wicked and unclean spirit for whatever the reason that you've been drawn to this thread, and i cast you out, whether you're in or on your host, by the power of the Blood of Christ ... And i call upon Holy Spirit to either supernaturally banish you from this site , or to convict you to repentance from your foul condition if in fact you're already saved, or unto salvation if you're not

Do you really think that 'foul, abusive, wicked and unclean spirits' can 'repent'? ...and what makes you think they read SermonIndex?

It's amazing that people who boast so much of God's grace as talked about in the cost of discipleship display so little of it. God knows if some here on this site had life together, it would be a short one, with the head of one severed from the other.

Worm,

no offense Greg, but this whole old path thing is just a slippery slope towards legalism and religion. I pray I'm wrong.

Actually it is not Greg you should be worried about offending but our Father in heaven who said "Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein."
Jeremiah 6:16

Worm said

I will tell you all right now, this place is just turning to a nest of religiostic vipers, white washed tombs, thank God, it's just cyber, and some of you are not in the same village. I can see it, this one carries a bundle of firewood, that one carries a bucket of bitumen and flammable oil, and at the head of the column some overwrought religionist is shrieking, BURN THE HERETICK!!!

No one here is at the point of committing violence against another man because of his refusal to hearken to our words. And not so much our words but words that come from the Holy Scriptures that tell us clearly to have no fellowship with the darkness and the rotten fruit that is bore from within it.

I verily believe that we are at a crossroads here and nothing but the Holy Spirit of God will convince you otherwise of what we are saying here. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Lord, let us be found like the good kings in Chronicles who tore down All of the high places and by being obedient to your command, you gave them rest.

Murray

This was origianlly supposed to be a reply on this thread, accidents happen:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18281&post_id=143594&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=143570&forum=35#143594

Last night I finished Harry Potter... I have a few things to say, but I won't go into any great detail. Here are a few observations from the book:

Harry Potter book 7 references Christianity both subtly and overtly.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While visiting the graveyard where his parent's graves are located Harry reads the headstone: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." referencing 1 Corinthians 15: 26. This will be important later in the book. There is also another bible verse read in the graveyard, but it's importance in the book is too difficult to explain in a short space.

JK Rowling lays down the subtext that beyond the magic that her characters use, there is a deeper and more fundamental Spiritual reality. In another part of the book Ron and Harry get into an argument about whether or not Dumbledore (who had died in the last book) was still alive - Harry says that he has surely moved on from this world. Ron has a hard time understanding what he's saying, because he's thinking about the world from a magical point of view, but Harry is thinking about the Spiritual world, which Ron is not aware.

Later in the book there is also a conversation about the differences between soul, body and mind -one of the Characters is quite oblivious to the difference, but again, the author presents a subtle push towards a Christian world view by expressing that there is a difference between soul and mind.

Later in the book, the meaning of the verse on his parent's headstone becomes clear. Harry must face his own death in order to save his friends and defeat Voldemort (who just so happens to be described with serpentine features). Dumbledore has known all along that Harry will have to make this choice... to willingly go to his death in order to destroy Voldemort.

Harry leaves secretly to sacrifice himself for the sake of those he loves, he is killed, but because of his willingness to die for the sake of his friends he does not die. Voldemort suspects that he has won and has one of Harry's friends carry his body back towards the rest of the cast. As Harry lay there in his friend's arms, another one of the casts attacks Voldemort (who has his snake Nagini around his neck). His friend slices off the serpent's head and Harry awakens to save his friends from Voldemort, who is eventually killed when Harry reveals that because of his sacrifice any spells that Voldemort does will backfire on him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is rich Christian symbolism in the end of Harry Potter. And as I've suggested earlier, they give us an opportunity to share with those who are reading it about the Savior who had done this on the cross for the sake of the world.

I have looked through several interviews with JK Rowling looking for this reference that everyone says she says that she practices wicca, and haven't found it -it's an urban legend. She may not be a conservative evangelical Christian (she claims to be a Presbyterian) but she has denied in several citable interviews that she does magic, endorses wicca or wrote this to corrupt our children.

I found what I was looking for in this book. A way to talk about Jesus through it. This book can be a pulpit to proclaim the power of Jesus to save. I hope you do not dismiss it without reading it discerningly.

Today I had a wonderful time of prayer with the Lord, I don't think He was displeased with me for reading Harry Potter because I was looking for Him the whole time. I cannot claim that I didn't have mixed motives for reading the book, it was a delightful book, but Christ purified my motives thismorning by showing me how to use this to proclaim His name.

Another aspect of the seventh book that supports a biblical worldview is the revelations concerning the character of Dubledore. Throughout the previous six books, Dubledore has been the kind hearted, gentle smiled, inspirational leader of Hogwarts School and The Order of the Phoenix. However in this book we learn that Dumbledore wasn’t as perfect as he had seemed, but had a very dark and mixed past.

Just like the bible’s brutal honesty towards it’s subjects, concerning David’s infidelity or Abraham’s cowardice, or Jacobs avarice… the seventh Harry Potter book deals frankly with several of it’s characters, most notably Dumbledore.

We find out through the book, that as a young man Dumbledore was ambitious, talented and most of all proud. His pride actually caused a division between him and his sick younger sister and rebellious brother. After his mother dies tragically he is forced to leave his path of fame in order to take care of his family –but he isn’t content, he is resentful of having to take care of them. Although he loves them as family, he comes to see them as a burden that stand between him and the power that he feels he rightly deserves.

At the same time another character Gringewold is introduced into the story. Both him and the young Dumbledore form a fast friendship –although Dumbledore can sense that the other young man has some fundamental darkness in him. Their friendship revolves around finding three magical items that they feel will give them the power to establish a new world order run by wizards and witches.

However Dumbledore’s younger brother confronts him about his neglect of their sister… and Gringewold reacts with violence. He attacks Dumbledore’s younger brother, Dumbledore joins the fray and in the midst of their duel, his younger sister is mortally wounded.

Gringewold sensing that this could cause trouble for him and his plans leaves immediately. Leaving Dumbledore with his guilt and remorse. Dumbledore repents for his pride and his lust for power… and sets his life in an entirely different direction. On his sister’s headstone he wrote the words from Matt 6: 21 “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” He realized that his treasure had been his own pride an ambition, and that his sin had led to the death of his own sister, and his estrangement from his younger brother.

In penance he went on to defeat Gringewold who had gone on to be something of the Hitler of the wizarding world. He had taken a humble position as a teacher at Hogwarts, turning down many offers to be the ‘minister of magic’ because he knew that he could not be trusted with power.

This is a picture of repentance in the book of Harry Potter. In the end, Dumbledore explains to Harry that there is a Spiritual world beyond that of magic, and that implicitly is Christianity (since Dumbledore was prone to referencing bible verses in this book). Dumbledore had repented, and spent his life working to defeat the ‘dark arts’ of whose main user was Voldemort, a striking picture of Satan.

This is just one of many ways that we can find biblical significance in a fictional book such as Harry Potter. This is ripe for Apologetics!

Ron i'm really concerned about you, it's like you're talking in double-speak with this Potter thing ... How could anyone who uses a wand (a slender rod used by conjurers and magicians) be misconstrued as a mechanical Star Trek replicator? ...

As to your other question, you know full well what i mean, after all you we're the one who responded in the natural to the initial thread i addressed to the super-natural ... i wondered then as to the negative intensity of your esponse, as i wonder now ...

i'm done here, and am continuing to pray for you ...

You wrote;

"It's amazing that people who boast so much of God's grace as talked about in the cost of discipleship display so little of it. God knows if some here on this site had life together, it would be a short one, with the head of one severed from the other."

Bro not trying to iratate you, but your statement encompasses us all, including yourself doesn't it? ... There's been a few instances i can recall where you've
not exactly been the King of tact either ... :-D ...

We all fall short ... We all fall down, but thank God by His grace we can repent, get back up, and keep running this race ...

I have no desire eat for I feel so sick,
what wickeness I see you holding to. Dear brothers I pray you will repent of your wicked ways. Stop calling evil good.
Hp is full of Sin, what part sin don't you get?
what is sin to you my dear brothers? can you say I love God and yet love what he hates?

If you love the world or things of the world the fathers love is not in you"..

it seems you don't want to face God, but man? For if you went to God and brought this to him. you would be on your face weeping.

Dear brothers I ask again what is sin to God?
do not make little of what put Christ on the Cross. That is wicked. Wicked dear brother wicked.

How long will we love these things? Repent!

Stop trying to be right, humble your self and repent!

I have much concerned that we openly saying evil is good!

to behonest tears are my food at such things. I have broken over such people who can't see this great evil. I fall to my face asking God one more time to humble your prideful hearts. I pray that God will show you this sin. Oh Father please bring them to their face weeping. Forgive us Lord Forgive us. Let us hate what you hate. Dear Jesus you stood for truth and upset many father your truth is upsetting it goes against our flesh. Again I ask let us die to our flesh. father God let the words of truth be heard and drive into their hearts. Humble them have them repent now. yes Lord of saying what should not be said. Oh Lord we long to be people who want your name lifted high. honor to your name is our plea, father let no other thing come in the way. Let us kill sin. put it to death. Oh Jesus let us see sin in all it wickedness. Holy King you are worthy of all praise. You are the God whom sent your son for our sins. Oh Jesus you King of Kings you died for us. Our sins put you on that Cross. Should I weep for I put you their my sins. , Oh I do thank you for makeing me clean Jesus I do thank you for dieing. But Lord let us not make sin little. Again open our eyes to the way you feel about it. The way you see it. Holy God yes ruler of all who are we to question your ways. You say follow and obey make no idol, love me with all your heart soul and mind. father I ask may all mans words be put side and let your words speak into my brothers hearts. repent let them repent. Jesus let your truth set us free from out wrong thinking. amen

oh you guys, come on...harry potter?

1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Worm,

If a "Christian" is burning someone at the stake, do you suppose they are a Christian? My Lord tells me not to even call someone a fool let alone burn them alive. If we all lived in the same town, would you be concerned for your personal safety? It is only because this is "cyber" that you are not concerned? I pray you are saying this to be dramatic.

It is not arrogant of me to presume that the Holy Spirit has spoken to you about such matters because our God is a consuming fire whose Spirit envies intensly for our purity. And the attitude that you have displayed about this issue tells me that He has not. Keep in rememberance the scripture "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."

I have noticed a tendency of yours to make this Harry Potter issue small in comparison to other pressing issues. The issues you have brought up are of utmost importance, I agree. But, so is the fact that millions of young people are reading this trash with much more fervor than they have ever read the Scriptures with, if they have in fact ever read them.

And more importantly than that is the fact that my brethren are taken up with reading these books, it is a great concern of mine.

"And other save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
Jude 1:23

"And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.
Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed."
Acts 19:18-20

Why would these men have burned these books that were so valuable unless they had been led by the Spirit?

I am not hyperventilating about this issue but I do have a Godly concern for my brethren.

Murray

Worm,

God bless you too dear brother!

Murray

To me what grieves my spirit in this post, is the lack of understanding it has had on our society

Isa 5:20 - Show Context
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Witchcraft is entering our faith and we are doing nothing about it.

Pr 27:5 - Show Context
Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Ian I have read your post, I have been a tv addict, I was into pornography.

I have been in services where to make the gospel relevant to todays society they have used finding nemo but it has made no impact because using the worlds method to reach the world.
It just does not work!

I had an American lady that got convicted by the holy spirit and stopped reading this book.
The reason is what far reaching affects will it have.

You say that it mentions christianity subtly is that not more dangerous than anything.
Are not half truths about are faith more damaging to what we believe dangerous!!

What will happen next?

My heart weeps for you as you do not know what evil you are opening yourselves up to

If Ron wants to read Harry Potter, what does that matter to me? I like watching Dog The Bounty Hunter. I'm sure we can find areas in everybody's life where we could say "I dont think thats the best thing for a child of God".

With all due respect Krispy, I have no such thing in my life. I also have brothers and sisters who have no such thing in their lives. There is nothing a Christian would point to and say, "I dont think thats the best thing for a child of God". If there is, I'd like to know about it so I could be holy as God is holy.

Nile

Saints,

Nile said:

With all due respect Krispy, I have no such thing in my life. I also have brothers and sisters who have no such thing in their lives. There is nothing a Christian would point to and say, "I don't think thats the best thing for a child of God." If there is, I'd like to know about it so I could be holy as God is holy.

Sounds eerily familiar:

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men-robbers, evildoers, adulterers-or even this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The psalmist wrote
"Who can discern his errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.
Keep your servant also from willful sin;
may they not rule over me.
Then will I be blameless,
innocent of great transgression."
Psalm 19:12-13

Paul said
"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."
Philippians 3:12

I recommend reading Thomas Reade "On the importance of self-knowledge."

I don't believe this thread has been entirely in vain if it has caused anyone to examine themselves in light of the scriptures.

Although there have been alot of instances where gentleness was lacking, myself included.

Murray

Murdog,
That was incredibly rude of you to say that about Nile! That comment wasn't even directed at you, it was directed at Krispy, who took it quite like a gentleman.
Every single victory Nile has over sin, he knows has been by the grace of God. But your theology, which I can only judge by this post, must be that of those who think we are captives of our sin after conversion for the rest of our lives. Well some of us don't have that devil's theology and so we reach out and tell those whom we love that they can be free from all sin. But you tried to twist it into some kind of holierthanthou insult rather than the gentle admonition he would have wanted it to be.
We all make lapses of judgment sometimes. That kind of perfect we never achieve. So I hope that is what happened here and you will be sad that you said such a mean thing about one of your brothers.

Edit: by the way, maybe the reason everyone is coming on here to discuss the damaging effects of Harry Potter is because that's the title of the thread. I'm sure half of us (like myself) came on here expecting to talk about that with people who agreed (naiivly assuming that Christians would not endorse this kind of material). I'm shocked that the Harry Potter supporters would let themselves become so offended. They came onto a thread, with the express intent to defend Harry Potter, and then were surprised when the people on the "damaging effects of Harry Potter thread" continued to try to talk about the damaging effects of Harry Potter....

Nile and Hope Purifies,

You are right, I am sorry. I didn't take my own advice when I posted. I didn't do it prayerfully. I accept your correction with thanks.

I need to take more time when replying, please don't be offended. I will try to be more thoughtful in the future.

Nile,

I was out of line, I should have not implied that you were like the Pharisee. Please forgive me.

Murray

Aww... that was so nice of you Murdog! Thank you for apologizing. I don't know if he will be on the forum for awhile because he is very busy.
:-)
May God bless you, I like your posts much of the time. ^_^

this makes me want to cry

dorcas wrote:

I looked up the following scripture (not sure if it's been posted already) and saw a new thing... a kind of allegory about ourselves, who have been made kings and priest to God... that if we are not obedient to Him, He [u]will[/u] take away our kingdom.

[color=006699]1 Samuel 15
22 Then Samuel said:
"Has the LORD [i]as great[/i] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
[i]And[/i] to heed than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion [i]is as[/i] the sin of witchcraft,
And stubbornness [i]is as[/i] iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
He also has rejected you from [i]being[/i] king." 24 Then Saul said to Samuel,
"I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice.
25 "Now therefore, please pardon my sin, and return with me, that I may worship the LORD." 26 But Samuel said to Saul,
"I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel."
[/color]

To reject His word is, therefore, in God's mind, a choice with very serious consequences. His word should be the (only) rock on which we build, and if we build on sand instead, we can [u]expect[/u] our house to fall flat in the flood. It won't even make it to the fire.

Let me end with these questions.

If you come from a witchcraft background, or have knowingly dabbled in it while also being a church-goer, how has this conflict affected you?

How did you get free, or, do you still struggle in its grip, or because of gaps in your understanding of scripture or theology, not knowing how the gospel effectively deals with this thing?

iansmith wrote:
Last night I finished Harry Potter... I have a few things to say, but I won't go into any great detail. Here are a few observations from the book:

Harry Potter book 7 references Christianity both subtly and overtly.

There is rich Christian symbolism in the end of Harry Potter. And as I've suggested earlier, they give us an opportunity to share with those who are reading it about the Savior who had done this on the cross for the sake of the world.

I have looked through several interviews with JK Rowling looking for this reference that everyone says she says that she practices wicca, and haven't found it -it's an urban legend. She may not be a conservative evangelical Christian (she claims to be a Presbyterian) but she has denied in several citable interviews that she does magic, endorses wicca or wrote this to corrupt our children.

I found what I was looking for in this book. A way to talk about Jesus through it. This book can be a pulpit to proclaim the power of Jesus to save. I hope you do not dismiss it without reading it discerningly.

Today I had a wonderful time of prayer with the Lord, I don't think He was displeased with me for reading Harry Potter because I was looking for Him the whole time. I cannot claim that I didn't have mixed motives for reading the book, it was a delightful book, but Christ purified my motives thismorning by showing me how to use this to proclaim His name.

Oddly, despite all the varied and passionate opinons laid down in this thread, a few things have not surfaced.

From the beginning, the mainstream Christian Church has said the Harry Potter books were evil.

Yet as we, through Ian, finish the 7th book of the series, a number filled with symbolism in itself, one gets the feeling that the author, Rowlings, may have pulled off something amazing in her series of children's books.

In addition to getting youngsters to read, perhaps for the first time, because the books are set within a deceptively attractive fantasy framework, one finds, if you look carefully, that the Harry Potter books are laced with the pure milk of the Bible.

Quite a coup, indeed, if Rowlings pulled all those youngsters through the pages of the 7th book, where the symbolism in the book is rich with Christian meaning, and lays the groundwork for some serious talk in the churches...or at home.

Unfortunately, the mainline Churches have been lambasting the books for so long, I rather doubt very many among them bothered to read them.

Those Christian bookstores that had Harry Potter books, are they now correct, for seeing the Christian infuence laid everywhere in a fairy tale for children?

For the Potter books are basically just fairytales, to drag the interest of far too worldly children to a point where they can see God, if they choose to, or it is pointed out to them.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Dorcas asked an interesting question. What about someone who was once in the occult? Would books like these get someone into the occult?

Well, a bookseller placing the Potter books in the witchraft section is certainly doing these children no good, and might be a great temptation to a parent buying the Potter books. But it will not be many children who pick up those very adult books on witchcraft as a religion, and attempt to put a few spells into action. It's the teenager, or adult, that might do that, but not from the Harry Potter books.

They'll watch several TV series, and watch a lot of movies with witchery in them, and maybe check out the bookstore for information...or the internet. It's all there, after all.

But some parents and many grandparents can recall a time when the Wizard of Oz was a pleasant fantasy in a grim worldtime of the Great Depression.

When I watched the movie, I could tell that the 'Good' witch was beautiful and the 'Bad' witch was ugly. Even so, I wanted to be Dorothy, not Glinda, the Good Witch, who was much more like a fairy Godmother than a witch at all.

Bewitched, the television series, was part of my youth. I watched it weekly, first in Black and White TV, and then in Color, and then in reruns, for it was so obviously a comedy series based on a premise of mischievous witches in our mundane world, and the good and the evil were pretty plainly laid out.

I read a lot of Science Fiction and Fantasy, as well.

None of them got me into the occult. They did, however form a background of psychic phenomena as being a possibility in my mind, and indeed is a real circumstance, and one often used as much by the Lord, as by Lucifer's minions.

And witchcraft, as a religion, was considered a joke in my youth, although it is a very serious business now, and with demons just waiting to assist, it can get pretty nasty. Study a little demonology, and some ritual spells, and you are in so deep you may lose your ability to get to Jesus at all. I had the books for reference material in writing...fortunately they scared me to the point that I wouldn't open them a second time.

Instead, I went straight into divination.

Why? I have the basic intuitive gift that is needed for easy spiritual contact, whether for Lucifer or for Jesus, and I read a book that gave an example of 'reading the cards' and how accurate they could be.

They are very accurate if you have a demon helping you, not because the demons know the future, but because they watch us all, and can communicate necessary information instantly to each other, and hence to the reader, who then can make very good assessments of what will happen according to the subject's ordinary behavior, habits, personal history and known opportunities and problems. And the demons are just waiting for you to try it, just one time.

Strange that that talent, that bent or sensitivity that can be used in divination was brought out in me based only on an example in a book, using ordinary playing cards.

So I bought another book. Then Tarot Cards. Then I got into studying the rich symbolism of the cards themselves, and how they are used as an aid to intuitive use.

Well, no matter. Jesus had been walking on one side of me while the demon was on the other until I learned enough to turn from the evil to the good.

I had no grandfather like Ron to read the books, and show me what was wrong and what was right.

And like Ian, I was brought up in a house of extreme license...jail was never an option, of course, but neither was embaressing my family. Other than that, I was pretty much on my own from age 9, and a lot of damage had been done long before I reached that age.

Books were my only friends. Fantasy was my escape, and still is from time to time, though there are many books I simply find distasteful, or ugly, or downright dangerous now that I am with Jesus.

Because I remember the days of evil.

The Harry Potter Books are a two edged sword, that will being benefit to some, and damnation to others, depending on the parents or grandparents, or Youth Pastors of the children reading those books.

Making them forbidden fruit to Christian children...that too is not wise, for we live in a time where there is no safety anywhere, except in Jesus.

Dear Lord, how are we to reach the unsaved? With a book that is popular in the world, and thus use it to show the way to Christ? Perhaps.

I wish the books had not been written.

But they are out there in the millions, and children can get them anywhere from a library, and read them openly because they are fashionable, or in secret if they are forbidden fruit.

I wish I had had a grandfather who would have cared what I was reading at the tender age of 9. But I was still on Jesus track, despite everything around me, until I hit 15, was baptised, got scared away from the church, and was coaxed into the occult...through a positive example of 'reading the cards' in a book I shouldn't have been reading in the first place.

But I didn't have such a grandfather, or a parent, or a Youth Pastor trying to get me safely into Jesus' arms, and I suffered for it. God will, I pray, use all of that as a witness to help others in the years to come.

So we are left with a dilemna. The Potter books can lead both ways, but a lot depends on the parents, grandparents, and Youth Pastors of those children. If a child already has been taught a few basics from the Bible, and about Jesus, the books will not harm them if used as a tool. But leaving a child alone with such a book? Dangerous indeed.

Unfortunately, our whole world is dangerous now, and not just to children. But if I had my choice, knowing all that I know, I would rather be able to read the books, and enjoy them as fantasy, while being carefully shown, by a loving parent or grandparent, or a youth pastor, what is wrong in the books and what is right.

How better to learn?

We cannot keep all of this world from our children. And children understand a great deal more than we give them credit for.

Are the Potter books a danger for our children? Of course! So is going to school, or staying overnight with friends, or watching TV!

In the end, we can only do so much to turn our children's feet to Christ. God has to do a good deal, to gain those children as they pass into adulthood and re-think all that they have been taught, at home, and in the schools, and by the world.

But it is indeed true...one book, read alone by a child, can do a great deal of harm.

I can testify to it.

Blessings,

Forrest

I am getting sick of this thread and I started it!
Arent we just rehashing old questions. Lock it.Just Stop it!! Do anything!!!

The thing that has been on my heart is the damaging effect witchcraft has had in a different form in which it seems as a church we have taken, hook, line and sinker.

I just want Jesus and I want truth!!! I dont want half truths. I just want him.
I am capable of being deceived as anybody else but I wish you could realized my love for you in starting this thread and finishing this.
When I was in pornography it took one picture and one sin to get me away from Jesus.
I want to run away from evil and into Jesus's arm.

Rev 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

I am just waiting for this world so there are no grey areas. I want what is good and what is true.
I dont want any muddy mixtures but I want the grace to handle the truth.

I just want him!!

Please end this thread!! I beg you and plead you!!
Dom

Let us not down play sin

we are to holy as he is holy

who are to say we stronger then other.
We are have nothing to do with.
I don't care if you haev a background our not
stay away. It is wicked

I am praying
in his love
charlene

I pray we will repent NOW

Saints,

"Our homeward path lies through a world captivating and ensnaring. The world, chameleon-like, can assume any color, and, Proteus-like, any shape, suitable to its purpose and answerable to its end. There is not a mind, a conscience, or a taste, to which it cannot accommadate itself. For the gross, it has sensual pleasures; for the refined, it has polished enjoyments; for the thoughtful, it has intellectual delights; for the enterprising, it has bold, magnificent schemes. The child of God feels this engrossing power; he is conscious of this seductive influence. Worldly applause-who is entirely proof against its power? Human adulation-who can resist its incense? Creature power-who is free from its captivation? Love of worldly ease and respectability, influence and position-a liking to glide smoothly along the sunny tide of the world's good opinion-who is clad in a coat of mail so impervious as to resist these attacks? Have not the mightiest fallen before them? Such are some only of the many ensnaring influences which weave themselves around the path of the celestial traveller, often extorting from him the humiliating acknowledgment-"My soul cleaves unto the dust." In this category we may include things which, though they are in themselves of a lawful nature, are yet of an earthly tendency, deteriorative of the life of God in the soul. What heavenly mind is not sadly sensible of this? Our ever-foremost, sleepless, subtle foe stands by and says, "This is lawful, and you may freely and unrestrictedly indulge yourself in it." But another and a solemn voice is heard issuing from the sacred oracle of truth-"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient." And yet how often we are forced to learn the lesson, that things lawful may, in their wrong indulgence and influence, become unlawful, through the spiritual leanness which they engender in the soul! Oh, it is a narrow path which conducts us back to Paradise. But our Lord and Master made it so; He Himself has trodden it, "leaving us an example that we should follow his steps;" and He, too, is sufficient for its straitness. Yes; such is the gravitating tendency to earth of the carnal nature within us, we are ever prone and ever ready, at each bland smile of the world, and at each verdant, sunny spot of the wilderness, to retire into the circle of self complaisance and self-indulgence, and take up our rest where, from the polluted and unsatisfying nature of all earthly things, real rest can never be found. Thus may even lawful affections and lawful enjoyments, lawful pursuits and pleasures, wring the confession from the lips of a heavenly minded man-"My soul cleaves unto the dust."

Octavius Winslow December 7

Murray

So here is a challenge... those who are all fired up about this, why dont you read the series for yourselves and give us a book review.

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!
We have a whole thread of people who HAVE read the book (or researched it) warning everyone else NOT to read it!
You should be ashamed Krispy!

Should we go do a review of the strip bars too? Maybe they're not as bad as the "legalistic Christians" claim?
Should we re-inspect tarot cards and weiji boards (I don't know how to spell that and I'm not looking it up)? Maybe they're not as bad as all these "fanatics" claim?
Should we review a whole series of "The Sopranos" to determine if God would approve of it or not? What about "Friends"? What about "Seinfeld"? Who know - maybe we'll get something out of it!
This is ludicrous!!!

And for the record, I have read three of the books and watched three of the movies (before I was saved) and I can firsthand testify that they are not of God.

"Be ye angry and sin not"
Nile

I have tried only to write loving admonishments in this thread and my heart is broken, perhaps IT IS time to pick up the pitchfork and torch ablaze with the Spirit of the Holy Ghost and cry out

Amen, Jim, Amen. My heart is sorely grieved too.

1 Corinthians 5:6
Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, [b]whatsoever things are pure[/b], whatsoever things are lovely, [b]whatsoever things are of good report[/b]; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

A little to slow on the draw. Had hope to do this quietly ...

This post has run it's course. Nile and to anyone else that this might apply to, I recommend the following:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18307&forum=35]Let's Get Refocussed[/url]

Please read it all the way through, with patience and consideration, prayerfully.

Thank you.

This thread will be locked.