All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.

I am assuming that you don't mean to offend us. So I am trying very hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I was a Calvinist for 3 years. THEN I realized that my understanding of the scriptures aligns with Arminianism. I only stayed Calvinist that long because all my church leaders were Calvinist and they kept giving me Calvinist books. They also kept me from seeking true holiness for those 3 years too.
I pray always that God will continue to give ways that the person can hear, give circumstances so that the person can be humbled, and all sorts of things. So I pray like an Arminian too.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

brother abe,

please tell me that was a joke. i am not an arminian and that was a horrible understanding of the freewill position.

That's Calvinism. So maybe we're all calvinist.

here is a question for you..

since when does the fact that we who believe that God has allowed mankind to either accept or reject mean that we "hope in the ability of the flesh"?? if we are convicted by the Holy Spirit and place our faith (that God has given man) in Him for salvation, then we have nothing boast in of ourselves. why do most calvanist think that we boast of that so much?? salvation is totally something God does, but God has commanded that for salvation, the condition is that man repent of his sin and believe on Christ. man cannot make themselves born again and no one who believes in freewill would ever prefess that.

a man who cannot do anything except call for help and place his trust and faith in the rescuer has nothing of himself to boast in.. nothing.

Dear brother Abraham,

I feel in my heart that I need to share with you something about this, and your recent threads. So take this in love.

You don't need this brother, you don't need it.
You don't need it, we don't this kind of labeling - Calvinists-Arminianists.
I assume and believe that you have honest heart for the Lord, but in order to enter into deep fellowship with the Holy Spirit we need brother to quit from this bondage of doctrines.

The description on this section of the forums says:
"Test everything, Hold on to the good." - 1 Thess 5:21. Here you will find discussions on all different scriptures and theological positions. Please discuss with an spirit of edification not dissention or strife.

And this is very poor way of fellowshipping of the saints of God, labeling with man's names.
Maybe you think that your theology is life or death important, but brother please realize that you may be in bondage to it.

Please realize that devil is greatest theologian from all of us, and is still devil.

What we need is LIFE, we need life from God, we need Spirit filled life, life is above doctrines and theology. The last can brought death.

I like Spurgeon on this:

"So my theological friend over there,
who knows so much that he can split hairs over doctrines-
it does not matter what you think, or what you know,
unless it leads you to glorify God, and to be thankful.
No, your knowledge may be a millstone about your neck to
sink you down to eternal woe, unless your knowledge is
turned to holy practice. "

And brother Ravenhill:

"Your doctrine can be as straight as a gun barrel-and just as empty!"

"You can have all of your doctrines right, yet still not have the presence of God."

Most of our preachers need to get free from their denomination, you go to church, what do you hear?
Do you meet God, or do you meet your church's theology, you meet your church's doctrine?
How often you go and come out breathing, and gasping - God The Holy Ghost was at that meeting and I absolutely shaken to my feet?

I believe this is the heart, and this should be the heart of our fellowshipping here.
We need the LIFE of Christ to flow from our lives, not the doctrine of Calvin or Arminia.

And when that LIFE is flowing out of us, it cannot went unrecognized! It is holy fragrant!

I am very sad, seeing that from many of the Calvinists their doctrine is their god, because they are in bondage to it and it flows out are just words of death. We need freedom from this!

I have heard labels to Spurgeon as Calvinist.
Brother, I love this Calvinist!

Because I have never read this man to preach Calvin or forcing some doctrine. But I have seen this man preaching Christ. I have seen Jesus in this man. I have seen tears, travail, call for repentance, call for love to Christ, I have seen such burden for lost souls that is so rarely, I have seen cry for the lost. This man has been sold out to Jesus and in bondage to Jesus, not to doctrine. I like his 'doctrine'.

I believe also that to be free from theological and doctrinal bondage you need death. As to every other matter. But everything begins from the death to self.

I posted this in the other thread, let me post it again, because really touches the heart of what I want to express here:

"There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals oft he faith year after year, strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their personal lives. They minister constantly to believers who feel within their breasts a longing which their teaching simply does not satisfy. I trust I speak in charity, but the lack in our pulpits is real. Milton's terrible sentence applies to our day as accurately as it did to his: `The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.'
It is a solemn thing, and no small scandal in the Kingdom, to see God's children starving while actually seated at the Father's table. The truth of Wesley's words is established before our eyes: `Orthodoxy, or right opinion, is, at best, a very slender part of religion. Though right tempers cannot subsist without right opinions,yet right opinions may subsist without right tempers. There may be a right opinion of God without either love or one right temper toward Him. Satan is proof of this.'

Thanks to our splendid Bible societies and to other effective agencies for the dissemination of the Word, there are today many millions of people who hold `right opinions,' probably more than ever before in the history of the Church.Yet I wonder if there was ever a time when true spiritual worship was ever a time when true spiritual worship was at a lower ebb. To great sections of the Church the art of worship has been lost entirely, and in its place has come that strange and foreign thing called the `program.' This word has been borrowed from the stage and applied with sad wisdom to the type of public service which now passes for worship among us.
[color=000099]
Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But exposition may be carried on in such way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience, they are not the better for having heard the truth. The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."
-A. W. Tozer Chicago, Ill. June 16, 1948.
(From the Preface of The Pursuit of God)

[/color]

Hi Abe...

I am not an "arminian."
I am not a "calvinist."
I just love the Lord.

When I "met" the Lord as a young teen at summer camp, I told Him that I would give everything I am -- and everything that I would ever be -- if I could just know Him and be His friend. It was a few months before I noticed the squabble between the "once saved/always saved" crowd and those who don't believe in that concept. I've often wondered why individuals so viciously try to align themselves with one of two opposing sides. Why can't an individual just be himself/herself in the Lord?

In times of such ridiculous and petty doctrinal disputes, I am always reminded about the position of the angel of the Lord when he was asked by Joshua, "[i]Art thou for us, or for our adversaries[/i]?" What was the answer? "[i]And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come[/i]" (Joshua 3:13-14).

God help us to align ourselves with the independent attitude of the Lord's camp!

:-)

Hello, all.

I can understand the intensity of those on each side, who fear the pitfalls associated with either opposing view.

The urgent Calvinist fears that his poor Arminian brothers are days from Socinianism, or may even be false converts yet trusting in the weak arm of the flesh. He wonders, how can they not know how helpless they were to come? He is concerned that their evangelism sends men away self-confident and not altogether stripped of hope in their own abilities.

Meanwhile, the Arminians are repulsed at the seemingly narrow view of God's plan of salvation held by their Calvinist brothers. Can one be truly a Christian and not perceive the all encompassing, unlimited atonement of Christ? They fear that their brothers may become fatalistic or cold to evangelism.

It is a real issue, one that cannot be tucked so easily away. Yet we must have it in love.

I recommend all to read the introduction to J.I.Packer's "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God", in which he uses a none-too-similar illustration of prayer as evidence of universal Christian belief in
-unconditional election - that is, God's mercy apart from merit
- extensive unwillingness - that is, no one is willing or able to come to God apart from divine movement upon them
- and irresistible grace - that is, we pray for God to move on them whether or not they are seeking it.

Packer states it more cogently than I have done.

Anyways, let's make this thread a little more brotherly (and sisterly ;-) )

So much thankfulness for you who have taught me,

It is a funny thing that if this were one of those very long free will, or moral governmenat posts, most would be saying Amen, but whne a differeing view is presented, and a very good example is pointed out, men recoil and say, "how dare you."

Here's a quote from Spurgeon for you all to thnk over as I have-

[i]"I have heard it asserted most positively, that those high doctrines which we love and which we find in the Scriptures, are licentious ones. I do not know who has the hardihood to make that assertion, when they consider that the holiest of men have been believers in them. I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitfield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace; or what will he say of those Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing; but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they the orthodox."[/i]

Spurgeon also said

Again let me remind you that the Scriptures plainly teach us that the atonement of
our Lord Jesus Christ has a universal bearing; and it seems to me that those who
limit the value of the atonement do most seriously err from the faith. I believe the
sacrifice of Jesus Christ was so infinite that, if there had been ten thousand worlds
full of sinners to have been redeemed, it was amply sufficient to have redeemed them
all.

but i also wonder how do you as a person that belive in this doctrine, how do you pray? do you ever pray for a lost person? even when you know(if you belive so) that your prayer will never do anything except God choose that person you happend to pray fore? if not are your prayers just wasted? I really wonder how you view that issue?

What worries me about this doctrine is if could be possible for all those who are saved to never pray one single prayer, never witness one single time to anybody and still God would save all who he has chosen. I know what many are going to answer and to think such thoughts i consider "carnal".

But in the end when i view and think about this Calvanistic Doctrine this is what i come to. because it leaves all responsibility to God.

Edit: this sermon is not about Calvanism vs arminianism. But its about sound doctrine, and it is a Good sermon to listen to no matter what "doctrine" one has. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2546]Sound doctrine in life A.W Tozer (Titus series)[/url]

i just think you calvanists make God so small,

my God is powerful and sovereign and can save sinners to the uttermost who repent and believe in the eternal almighty Gods son.

it grives me deeply people ignore so much scriptures, just for a "doctrine"

Dear brother Abraham,

I feel in my heart that I need to share with you something about this, and your recent threads. So take this in love.

You don't need this brother, you don't need it.
You don't need it, we don't this kind of labeling - Calvinists-Arminianists.
I assume and believe that you have honest heart for the Lord, but in order to enter into deep fellowship with the Holy Spirit we need brother to quit from this bondage of doctrines.

The description on this section of the forums says:
"Test everything, Hold on to the good." - 1 Thess 5:21. Here you will find discussions on all different scriptures and theological positions. Please discuss with an spirit of edification not dissention or strife.

And this is very poor way of fellowshipping of the saints of God, labeling with man's names.
Maybe you think that your theology is life or death important, but brother please realize that you may be in bondage to it.

Please realize that devil is greatest theologian from all of us, and is still devil.

What we need is LIFE, we need life from God, we need Spirit filled life, life is above doctrines and theology. The last can brought death.

I like Spurgeon on this:

"So my theological friend over there,
who knows so much that he can split hairs over doctrines-
it does not matter what you think, or what you know,
unless it leads you to glorify God, and to be thankful.
No, your knowledge may be a millstone about your neck to
sink you down to eternal woe, unless your knowledge is
turned to holy practice. "

And brother Ravenhill:

"Your doctrine can be as straight as a gun barrel-and just as empty!"

"You can have all of your doctrines right, yet still not have the presence of God."

Most of our preachers need to get free from their denomination, you go to church, what do you hear?
Do you meet God, or do you meet your church's theology, you meet your church's doctrine?
How often you go and come out breathing, and gasping - God The Holy Ghost was at that meeting and I absolutely shaken to my feet?

I believe this is the heart, and this should be the heart of our fellowshipping here.
We need the LIFE of Christ to flow from our lives, not the doctrine of Calvin or Arminia.

And when that LIFE is flowing out of us, it cannot went unrecognized! It is holy fragrant!

I am very sad, seeing that from many of the Calvinists their doctrine is their god, because they are in bondage to it and it flows out are just words of death. We need freedom from this!

I have heard labels to Spurgeon as Calvinist.
Brother, I love this Calvinist!

Because I have never read this man to preach Calvin or forcing some doctrine. But I have seen this man preaching Christ. I have seen Jesus in this man. I have seen tears, travail, call for repentance, call for love to Christ, I have seen such burden for lost souls that is so rarely, I have seen cry for the lost. This man has been sold out to Jesus and in bondage to Jesus, not to doctrine. I like his 'doctrine'.

I believe also that to be free from theological and doctrinal bondage you need death. As to every other matter. But everything begins from the death to self.

I posted this in the other thread, let me post it again, because really touches the heart of what I want to express here:

"There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals oft he faith year after year, strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their personal lives. They minister constantly to believers who feel within their breasts a longing which their teaching simply does not satisfy. I trust I speak in charity, but the lack in our pulpits is real. Milton's terrible sentence applies to our day as accurately as it did to his: `The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.'
It is a solemn thing, and no small scandal in the Kingdom, to see God's children starving while actually seated at the Father's table. The truth of Wesley's words is established before our eyes: `Orthodoxy, or right opinion, is, at best, a very slender part of religion. Though right tempers cannot subsist without right opinions,yet right opinions may subsist without right tempers. There may be a right opinion of God without either love or one right temper toward Him. Satan is proof of this.'

Thanks to our splendid Bible societies and to other effective agencies for the dissemination of the Word, there are today many millions of people who hold `right opinions,' probably more than ever before in the history of the Church.Yet I wonder if there was ever a time when true spiritual worship was ever a time when true spiritual worship was at a lower ebb. To great sections of the Church the art of worship has been lost entirely, and in its place has come that strange and foreign thing called the `program.' This word has been borrowed from the stage and applied with sad wisdom to the type of public service which now passes for worship among us.

Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But exposition may be carried on in such way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience, they are not the better for having heard the truth. The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."
-A. W. Tozer Chicago, Ill. June 16, 1948.
(From the Preface of The Pursuit of God)

hmmhmm wrote:
i just think you calvanists make God so small,

my God is powerful and sovereign and can save sinners to the uttermost who repent and believe in the eternal almighty Gods son.

it grives me deeply people ignore so much scriptures, just for a "doctrine"

Another thing I notice, is that no one is born a Calvinist. We all have an intuitive God-given idea that we freely make choices. I never would have thought that God *arbitrarily* chooses who goes to heaven and hell unless I had heard it from other men.

I do believe God chooses, ordains, foreknows, and predestines those who go to heaven: They are the ones who believe in Jesus Christ and repent of sin.

An Armenian,
Nile

It seems to me that when someone, either calvinist or arminean, places so much emphasis on their doctrine and becomes unwaveringly loyal to their doctrinal camp then something is [b]WAAAAAAAY[/b] out of balance. I hear people talk about Spurgeon, Calvin, Whitefield, etc. but let me say that the secret of their christian life was [b]ABSOLUTELY NOT IN THE FACT THAT THEY WERE CALVINISTS[/b] and neither was Wesley's in the fact that he was in the other camp. So Spurgeon was the prince of preachers. Well, Wesley won more souls to God. 2+2=5???????!!!!!!!
But Wesley's doctrine was [b]DAMNABLE HERESY![/b] or so some would like us to think. Did Spurgeon preach to fix everyone's bad doctrine? Not at all, he preached to bring souls to Christ. The same with Edwards, Whitefield, you name the giants of the faith and I can assure you they weren't out to make disciples of Calvin, they were out to make christians in the best way they knew how. Give me a man who is turning this world upside down for God and I'll ask him what God has done for him. Not what his doctrinal party is.
People love and are loyal to their doctrine even at the expense of a brother or sister in Christ in these kinds of discussions. I don't think it ought to be that way.
Rather than arguing that Wesley was arminiest or Whitefield was calvinist we'd be much better off getting on the floor and crying "God, make my life like that of Whitefield and Wesley!!!!"

[edit] Very well said Jim. That's how I see the matter as well.

Dr. Tozer's & Spurgeon Advice

'I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, “Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?”
And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, “My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”'
-Cliff Westergren

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=6139&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Dr. Tozer's & Spurgeon Advice[/url]

Thanks Mike! That is some wonderfully convicting (and much needed) advice!

:-)

I believe a true sign of Christian maturity comes when a believer can finally reconcile this Calvin/Arminian discrepancy to [i]his or herself[/i], and not feel compelled to draw others into the ring. The wisest men of God knew to avoid it, because such debates are quite unwinable. Believers who wrangle over this topic and use certain scriptures to prove their point are actually spinning their wheels in a mud pit. The engine is screaming, scripture is flying, lots of noise and power and fuel expenditure...but in the end you go nowhere. You're no closer to the destination than when you first put the key in the ignition and turned the engine on.

I believe Tozer was right: We need to get past the urge to participate in these fruitless debates and instead go after God with a single eye. We need to avoid the pits in the road, brethen.

All of us are at points where we are receiving light from the Word. Some of us have more light than others, because more Word has entered in. I can [i]guarantee [/i] that your current theological leanings will change somewhat as more light is imparted to your soul in the future. The trivialities that charmed you in third grade will be forgotten by the time you're in high school -- in fact, you'll look back and see much of it was quite infantile and pointless.

I bless God for the example of Wesley and Whitefield. These two men were not on opposite ends of a theological spectrum by chance. God knew what He was doing, whom he was choosing. He was setting a profound example with these two brothers, showing His ways are so far above and beyond our mortal understandings. Let us therefore get our vessels unstuck and go after God. I realise this post will not change many of your convictions, but I believe someone will read this and realize that it is time to progress to higher grades in God's academy.

Brother Paul

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

There is no need to label ourselves to fit a certain doctrinal stance. This only leads to division amongst believers.

If you read throught the Gospels you'll see that Jesus didn't spend much time on doctrine, He taught about what it meant to walk with Him and how to be His disciple.

Jordan

Here is an excellent article:

The True Gospel And The False - Zac Poonen

Christians are generally speaking, categorized into two groups as follows:

(1) "Roman Catholics" and "Protestants" - depending on birth.
(2) "Episcopal" (conformist) and "Free church" (non-conformist) - depending on church-pattern.
(3) "Born again Christians" and "Nominal Christians" - depending on an "experience";
(4) "Evangelicals" and "Liberals" - depending on doctrine.
(5) "Charismatics" and "Non-charismatics" - depending on "speaking in tongues".
(6) "Full-time Christian workers" and "Secular workers" - depending on profession.
There could be other such categorizations too. But none of these categorizations deal with the root of the problem that our Lord came to solve.

Many know that "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor.15:3). But many do not know that the Bible says that Christ also died "that we should no longer live for ourselves but for Him" (2 Cor.5:15).

A more Scriptural way of categorizing Christians therefore would be as follows: "Those who live for themselves" and "Those who live for Christ"; or "Those who seek their own" and "Those who seek the things of Christ" or "Those who seek earthly things first" and "Those who seek the kingdom of God first"; or "Those who love money" and "Those who love God". (Jesus said it was impossible to love both -Lk.16:13)

But I have never heard of such a categorization being used. This categorization deals with the Christian's inner life and private walk with God, whereas the methods mentioned earlier deal with the external details of his life. Yet it is in this latter way that heaven categorizes Christians. And if that be the case, then this is the only categorization that matters! In this method, others cannot categorize us. We have to categorize ourselves - for no one but we ourselves know our inner motivations and desires. Even our wives may not be aware what we are living for.

Our Lord did not come primarily to give people a doctrine, or a church-pattern or to make them speak in tongues or even to give them an experience!

He came to "save us from sin". He came to lay the axe to the root of the tree. And the root of sin is : Being centered in ourselves, seeking our own and doing our own will. If we do not permit the Lord to axe and uproot this "root" from our lives, we will be Christians only superficially. Satan may however deceive us into imagining that we belong to a higher class than other Christians, because of our doctrine or our experience or our church-pattern!

Satan doesn't care even if we have the right doctrine, experience and church-pattern, so long as we continue to "live for ourselves" (This, by the way, is just another phrase for "living in sin"!!). Christendom today is filled with Christians who seek their own and live for themselves, who are yet convinced that God views them as superior to other Christians, merely because of doctrinal differences or church-pattern or "experiences". This shows what a great work Satan has succeeded in doing in Christendom.

In John 6:38, our Lord said that He came from heaven to earth:
(1) To deny His human will (that He had acquired, when He came to earth as a Man), and (2) To do the will of His Father, as a Man. Thereby He became our example.

Throughout Jesus' earthly life -- during all His 331/2; years - He denied his own will and did His Father's will. And He told His disciples clearly that those who wanted to be His disciples would have to go the same way. He came to hit at the root of sin in our lives - "doing our own will" - and to deliver us from that.

In the realm of science, for thousands of years, man made the mistake of imagining that the earth was the center of the universe. It looked like that to human eyes - because the sun, moon and stars did indeed appear to be revolving around the earth once every 24 hours. It took the courage of a man like Copernicus to question this popular notion, just about 450 years ago, and to show that it was utterly false and that the earth was not even the center of the solar system, leave alone the universe. The earth, he showed was created to be centered in the sun. As long as man had the wrong center, his scientific calculations and deductions were wrong - because his center was wrong. But once man discovered the right center, then these calculations and deductions turned out right.

It is the same with us when we remain "self-centered" instead of being "God-centered". Our understanding of the Bible and of God's perfect will (our calculations and deductions) will then be wrong. But just as men were convinced for over 5000 years that they were right (as we saw above), we too may imagine that we are right! But actually, we will be 100% wrong.

This is what we see even among many "good Christians" today. They have so many different interpretations of the same Bible - and yet each one is convinced that his interpretation alone is right and everyone else's is wrong. The others, they will say are "deceived". Why is this so? Because they've got their center wrong.

Man was created to be centered in God and not in himself. And when Christians have got their center wrong, their "gospel" will be wrong too. Basically, there are only two gospels being preached today - one man-centered and the other God-centered.

The man-centered gospel promises man that God will give him everything he needs to make his life on earth comfortable and will also give him a seat in heaven at the end of his life. Man is told that Jesus will forgive all his sins, heal all his diseases, bless and prosper him materially, solve all his earthly problems, etc., etc.

Self still remains at the center of such a man's life, and God revolves around him - as his servant - to answer his every prayer and to give him whatever he wants!! All that he has to do is "believe" and "claim every material blessing in Jesus' Name"!!

This is a false gospel, because no mention is made of "repentance". Repentance is what John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul, Peter and all the apostles preached first of all. And repentance, unfortunately, is what is not preached today, even last of all!!

The God-centered gospel, on the other hand, calls upon man to repent. It explains that "repentance" means:

Turning FROM Self as the center of one's life, from doing one's own will, from walking along one's self-chosen way, from loving money, and from loving the world and the things in the world (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life), etc., and

Turning TO God, loving Him with one's whole heart, making Him the Centre of one's life and doing His will henceforth etc.,

Faith in Christ's death on the cross can forgive a man his sins only when he has repented. Then he can receive the power of the Holy Spirit empower him to deny himself daily so that he can live a God-centered life. This is the gospel that Jesus and the apostles preached.

The false gospel makes the gate wide and the way broad (easy to walk along, because one does not have to deny one's Self or stop living for one's own interests or stop seeking one's own gain). Millions attend meetings where such a false "gospel" is preached. And many enter through this gate and walk along this way, imagining that it leads to life. But it actually leads to destruction. The evangelists of this gospel however gloat in, and report about the large numbers of people who "raised their hands and made decisions for Christ" in their meetings!! But it is all a deception. Although some are indeed genuinely converted in such meetings, because of their sincerity, many such "converts" end up becoming "twofold children of hell" (Matt.23:15) - deceived about their true state.

The true gospel however, makes the gate small and the way narrow - not smaller or narrower than Jesus Himself made it, as some "super-spiritual" cultists do, but just the same size as Jesus made it. Few there be, that find this way to life. There is not much for the evangelists of this gospel to report about, and the statistics are not impressive. But this gospel leads people to the Lord Jesus and to heaven.

"Be careful how you listen. Whoever obeys what he has heard, to him more light and understanding will be given. But whoever does not obey what he has heard, even what light and understanding he thinks he has will be taken away from him." (Paraphrase of Luke 8:18).

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Brother hmmhmm I post this for your consideration, not to win you to a certain belief, but simply to give a defense of the hope that lies within. You have asked questions, and I will try to answer.

In response to your Spurgeon quote, I post this from a sermon called "The Death of Christ"

[i]They believe in an atonement made for every body; but then, their atonement is just this. They believe that Judas was atoned for just as much as Peter; they believe that the damned in hell were as much an object of Jesus Christ's satisfaction as the saved in heaven; and though they do not say it in proper words, yet they must mean it, for it is a fair inference, that in the case of multitudes, Christ died in vain, for he died for them all, they say; and yet so ineffectual was his dying for them, that though he died for them they are damned afterward. Now, such an atonement I despise—I reject it. I may be called Antinomian or Calvinist for preaching a limited atonement; but I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than an universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of man be joined with it. Why, my brethren, if we were only so far atoned for by the death of Christ that any one of us might afterward save himself, Christ's atonement were not worth a farthing, for there is no man of us can save himself—no, not under the gospel; for if I am to be saved by faith, if that faith is to be my own act, unassisted by the Holy Spirit, I am as unable to save myself by faith as to save myself by good works. And after all, though men call this a limited atonement, it is as effectual as their own fallacious and rotten redemptions can pretend to be. But do you know the limit of it? Christ hath bought a "multitude that no man can number." The limit of it is just this: He hath died for sinners; whoever in this congregation inwardly and sorrowfully knows himself to be a sinner, Christ died for him; whoever seeks Christ, shall know Christ died for him; for our sense of need of Christ, and our seeking after Christ, are infallible proofs that Christ died for us. And, mark, here is something substantial.[/i]

Now, I firmly and most vehemently believe that one drop of the blood of Christ is enough to save galaxy upon galaxy of men. However, this blood will not be applied to all so that all are saved. Here is where there is a huge difference in the Arminian and Calvinist thoughts, for the Arminian limits the "sufficiency", while Calvinists limit its "efficiency".

No matter what we think, we must come to grips with the fact that men perish. So we must ask why? Some will say unbelief, and that is fair. Yet if the death of Christ was for all mens' sins equally, is not unbelief a sin? And yet the man for whom Christ died is now in Hell though his penalty was paid?

This most definitley would make God unjust, to demand double payment, both from Christ, and from the man himself. If this were done in our courts there would be immediate uprising.

So how do we reconcile this?

If all sins of all men are covered, and paid for, then none will perish. Even those who die in unbelief. Or there must be some limit to the extent of Chris't payment.

Abe_Juliot wrote:

"Oh God! Please save my little sister. I ask that you would do every thing that you can do to save her. But... Oh God, I know that she has to make the right choice of her free will, before you can have mercy on her. So, Lord I pray that you would do your part and be patient with her, so she could make the right decision and let you have mercy on her. Oh God, I pray that she would make the right decision to get a new heart... But, oh God I know that you can't cause the new birth. She has to choose it and cooperate with you. So, I pray that she would make the right choice, so you can have mercy on her. But... Oh God, I know that only she can answer that prayer. For God, you can't have mercy on anyone unless they do something first. And God, you would never cause her to approach you... because that would violate her freewill. Oh God, your so merciful!"

Oh, God I thank you that you didn't elect my brother, so that you could show your power in him. Thank you for shedding your blood, only for few so that many of your creation that you hate will burn for ever. God, I thank you that I'm not like other men who heard the gospel and can not submitt, because I am of the elite... who didn't want to make the right decision to get born-again, but you made me do it anyway. I thank you that you brainwashed the right decision in to me to get born-again. Thanks God, for electing me. It's a good thing that you didn'y elect by brother who is burning in hell because you did'nt want him with you. For you would never let people have freewill Oh God, you're so merciful?"

(Please understand, I'm not mocking the way somebody prays or making fun of someone. I don't think any true spirit-filled Christian would ever pray like this... Arminian or Calvinist.
How ever this is the logical extent to calvism)

Also here are some Scriptures to look at

The atonement of Christ is effective
To justify
Isa 53:11 [the single effective cause of justification in view here is the bearing of iniquities; all whose iniquities Christ bore must be justified]; Rom 8:34 [the argument here is that the fact of Christ's death, resurrection, and intercession is in itself an incontrovertibly effective reason for non-condemnation; if this verse is true, then no one for whom Christ died and was raised to intercede may be condemned]

To redeem and cleanse from sins
Eph 5:25-27; Tit 2:14

To propitiate the Father
1John 2:2 [“propitiation” means “the turning away or appeasement of wrath”; therefore, by definition, the Father has no more wrath against those whose sins have been propitiated]; 1John 4:10

To raise to new life
2Cor 5:14-15 [the argument is a simple “if/then” proposition: “if” Christ died for someone, “then,” with no other conditions, that person died with him and was raised again]; 1Pet 3:18
[See also, “Jesus' death purchased for his people a new heart; – faith; – repentance”. Jesus died in order to establish the New Covenant (Mat. 26:26-29, etc.); the New Covenant promised faith, repentance and knowledge of God (Jer. 31:33-34, Ez. 36:26-27, etc.); therefore, Jesus died in order to provide faith, repentance, and knowledge of God, as the fulfillment of a unilateral promise. This means that his death had a definite purpose which was intended for some and not others. His death effectively purchased faith; not all have faith; and so his death had an effective intent that was limited to certain persons.]

Those whom God purposed to redeem include all who believe
John 3:16

From every nation
Rev 5:9
From every class
Gal 3:28; 1Tim 2:1-6 [the first “all men” is explicitly tied to all classes of men, which gives warrant for understanding the second “all men” in the same way]

Therefore, Christ's saving work is commonly spoken of in terms of “all,” “world,” etc.

John 1:29; Tit 2:11-14 [in the context of “all men” is the delimiting concept of a peculiar people, zealous of good works]; Heb 2:9-10 [notice that the many sons whom Christ brings to glory gives a contextual delimiter to the term “every”]; 2Pet 3:9 [note that this desire is explicitly limited to “us” (Peter was writing to fellow-believers) in the context]; 1John 2:2 [propitiation means “appeasement of wrath”; either Jesus appeases God's wrath against all, and therefore hell (which is the place where God's wrath resides) is non-existent; or the “whole world” means something different than “every individual who ever lived”. See John 11:51-52, and “The word 'world' is often used in the sense of 'many,' or 'all of a set'”]

The word “all” is often used to indicate all of a set, or even many representatives of a set
Mat 10:22; 1Cor 6:12; 1Cor 15:22; Mat 2:3; John 4:29; Act 10:39; Act 17:21; Act 21:28; Act 26:4

Or, to indicate all “classes” or “nations,” not all individuals
Mat 5:11; Act 2:17; Act 10:12

The word “world” is often used in the sense of “many,” or “all of a set”
Luk 2:1-2; John 6:33; John 12:19; Act 19:27; Rom 1:8

Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people

God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for
Mark 9:43-44

If one were to say, “their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,” he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin
Heb 3:12

[“The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either:

1) All the sins of all men;
2) All the sins of some men; or
3) Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:
1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved;

2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth;

3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!” – John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ]

God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]
1The 2:16; 2The 1:6-9

[i]-Nathan Pitchford of monergism.com[/i]

I realise this post will not change many of your convictions, but I believe someone will read this and realize that it is time to progress to higher grades in God's academy.

roaringlamb wrote:

“The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either:

1) All the sins of all men;
2) All the sins of some men; or
3) Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:
1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved;

2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth;

3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!” – John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ]

God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]

Ye are save by [i]Atonement[/i] through faith(opposite of unbelief) and that not of yourself...

If on has faith, then, his sins along with the prior unbelief will be atoned for.

If one remains in unbelief, that one is not appropriating the atonement to him self, therefore, the sin of unbelief is not covered along with all the rest.

If one remains in unbelief, that one is not appropriating the atonement to him self, therefore, the sin of unbelief is not covered along with all the rest.

So how does a man come to see his need of the atonement?

Also, doesn't your view limit the atonement too?

roaringlamb wrote:

If one remains in unbelief, that one is not appropriating the atonement to him self, therefore, the sin of unbelief is not covered along with all the rest.

So how does a man come to see his need of the atonement?

[b]b1Tim 1:8-10[/b] [color=993300] But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully;
[b]:9[/b] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[b]:10[/b] For fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;[/color]

The law is used to show the need of salvaition

Also, doesn't your view limit the atonement too?

You limit it to who can not have it.

I put the blaim on man, you put the blaim on God.

But, people speak poorly of limited atonement when it is linked to God, yet when man is the one making the limitation it's ok?

So, if the atonement is limited by unbelief, why then do many say it is for everyone?

It cannot be, for either all are saved because all sin is forgiven, or it is limited right?

Brother Logic and others,
Please be patient with me, I am asking these questions to understand.

If it is as many say that God foresees faith in those whom He elects, then isn't this still limiting Christ's work based upon God's election?
(As we have determined that Christ's work cannot be for all mens' sins else all would be saved, because unbelief is a sin that would have to be forgiven as well)

So now, would this mean that God favoured some over others because He saw something in them that others did not have(faith)?

Please understand, I'm not mocking the way somebody prays or making fun of someone.

Perhaps not, but you are speaking foolishly.

That's Calvinism. So maybe we're all calvinist. However, like me... many started out a confused calvinist. (Preaching like an Arminian and praying like a Calvinist.)

I am trusting that the heart of this post is good, and no offense was meant (though some provocation maybe) - I feel this has really taken to extremes.

I could equally say "All Christians are Arminean when they preach the Gospel"

Have you ever heard anyone preach:

"The Good News of the Gospel is that Christ
[i]might[/i] have died for you. If you aren't listening to the Word, and are resisting it, don't worry, because God will either make you obey and you'll agree with me in the end and we'll both be in Heaven - or you're already going to Hell so it's irrelevant what you do.

Come to Jesus today, no, not all of you, only those that are going to come anyway. I bring good news, if you're a special one - if not, bad luck."

OF COURSE No-one would preach like this.

If only you had concluded that perhaps calvinism and armineanism aren't mutually exclusive in part, and that there has to be some cross-over in any Chirstian life, it'd be good (I think I mentioned praying like a calvinist and preaching like an arminean in another post) - I just don't know what this post is set out to achieve?!

All I can conclude is that you've thought long and hard about us Armineans (I say that, I'm not, I just believe in free-will and not unconditional election - I've read no armineanism) and realised that perhaps we don't pray like arrogant Heathen...

roaringlamb wrote:

But, people speak poorly of limited atonement when it is linked to God, yet when man is the one making the limitation it's ok?

So, if the atonement is limited by unbelief, why then do many say it is for everyone?

It cannot be, for either all are saved because all sin is forgiven, or it is limited right?

Salvation is limited for only those who have faith, why the confusion about this?

roaringlamb wrote:
So now, would this mean that God favoured some over others because He saw something in them that others did not have(faith)?

Salvation is limited for only those who have faith, why the confusion about this?

My confusion lies in this. If I say God limits those who will be saved on the basis of election, people have a fit and tell me I am cruel and making God a mocker of man.

However if you say that man limits the atonement through his lack of faith, all say, "amen."

But to move beyond that, where does this faith come from?

From how I see this, it seems that so long as man has the last decision everyone is happy, but remove that decision, and everyone shouts, "unfair!"

I am really trying to grasp what the other side believes, as it does not make sense to me at the moment.

If a Calvinist doesn't believe Faith comes by hearing, why and what good are they anyway?

If someone says this, their theology matters little, as the Scripture says that faith comes by hearing, and to deny that is denying Scripture.

roaringlamb,

However if you say that man limits the atonement through his lack of faith, all say, "amen."

I'm not really sure what you mean by this statement. Could you elaborate?

I'm not an Arminian by-the-way, but I don't think they would necessarily agree with that statement either.

There are many Bible Believing Christians who believe in their eternal security and are NOT Armenian or Calvinist. I'm one. I actually get offended when Calvinists try to indoctrinate you and tell you to read their materials or the Institutes of Calvin

Exactly. There is no way of holding to 'strict' Calvinism or 'strict' Armineanism without having to explain away a few scriptures. I've never read either, but am tired of getting battered with a tulip every 10 seconds!

I'm not really sure what you mean by this statement. Could you elaborate?

What I am saying is that, if a Calvinist says that God limits who will partake of the work of the Cross, usually people are quick to say, "unfair, that is not the God of the Bible etc."

But it seems that as long as man is the one who can choose to limit its application men do not have a problem.

It seems that so long as man can retain some say, or maintain some sort of godlike quality(i.e. choosing to partake of Christ), men don't have a problem. But once you get into the total inability and ingratitude towards God that men have, and how they would not seek God unless He gave them the very urge to do so, man begins to become infuriated as he believes there is still something redeemable in him.

"The Good News of the Gospel is that Christ
might have died for you. If you aren't listening to the Word, and are resisting it, don't worry, because God will either make you obey and you'll agree with me in the end and we'll both be in Heaven - or you're already going to Hell so it's irrelevant what you do.

Come to Jesus today, no, not all of you, only those that are going to come anyway. I bring good news, if you're a special one - if not, bad luck."

:-P this is what calvanism looks to me. :-) and im not from arminian.....

his is what calvanism looks to me. and im not from arminian.....

me either really.

but am tired of getting battered with a tulip every 10 seconds!

But did you know that had it not been for the followers of Arminius, the TULIP would not have been created?

The five points of Calvinism were not written down by Calvin, as he was dead when they were brought together. But rahter the five points were in response to five points presented by the Remonstrants(Arminians).

If you search for the Synod of Dort, you can find the objections presented and refuted. If anyhting it will strengthen you in what you currently believe.

Here is a link to the points raised and refuted

[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//creeds/dort.htm]Synod Of Dort[/url]

Then I'm tired of the Remonstrants too!

Thanks for the link though.

What I am saying is that, if a Calvinist says that God limits who will partake of the work of the Cross, usually people are quick to say, "unfair, that is not the God of the Bible etc."

it would be different if God said "i don't really want all to be saved, i just want some of all kinds of people and don't worry about it because if you are selected you will come to me and if you are not, then you cannot do anything about it". if the bible said this, then we cannot cry unfair because that would be His choice. but God has not said this. He said that He wants all men to be saved.period.

It seems that so long as man can retain some say, or maintain some sort of godlike quality(i.e. choosing to partake of Christ), men don't have a problem. But once you get into the total inability and ingratitude towards God that men have, and how they would not seek God unless He gave them the very urge to do so, man begins to become infuriated as he believes there is still something redeemable in him.

there is nothing in man that makes him so redeemable save that God loved us so much that He died for us. He loved man so much that He refused to let any perish except those that continually reject the Light and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

roaringlamb wrote:
It seems that so long as man can retain some say, or maintain some sort of godlike quality(i.e. choosing to partake of Christ), men don't have a problem.

roaringlamb wrote:
But once you get into the total inability and ingratitude towards God that men have, and how they would not seek God unless He gave them the very urge to do so, man begins to become infuriated as he believes there is still something redeemable in him.

Me:
If my new born can not mow the lawn, should I expect him to mow it?

roaringlamb wrote:
If it was a required for him to live, and you were comapssionate towards him, would you not intervene, and do what he could not? And then in the wonders of your grace attribute it to him as if he had done it so that he could be in relationship to you and have life.

This is why man gets man begins to become infuriated with "total Depravity" and "inability"

I wonder though, do any of you feel sympathy for Satan and his angels?

They cannot be saved, why not?

roaringlamb wrote:
I wonder though, do any of you feel sympathy for Satan and his angels?

They cannot be saved, why not?

The first point of interest here seems to be that Satan [i]chose[/i] to rebel against God.

Isaiah 14:
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For [b]you[/b] have said in [b]your[/b] heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

As for why they cannot be saved, I don't what it takes to sin in the Heavenly places - I don't what time is like their either. To sin in Heaven itself is surely beyond our comprehension.

If God pre-destined [i]everything[/i] - from Satan's Fall, through Adam's fall to the crucifixion and the election of the saints, then it seems to me He is merely playing a game - creating a story and letting it play out.

My God is the God who chooses to react as well as act - the God who 'relents' after hearing the prayers of Moses and Abraham - who says "Come ALL who are thirsty". Oh dear, I'm being sucked in at last. roaringlamb, I wonder if maybe you should read how your posts sound, I do find them unnecessarily provocative.

My point in this was simply to show that no one thinks it's unfair for satan and his angels to be sent to hell for sin, but yet it is for man.

I am simply trying to show that sin has negated any claim man had on Heaven, thus if God should save not one soul, He is still just, and good, and holy, and love.

The fact that He saves any should humble us, as salvation is one the most UNFAIR things man receives.

Again, I will post one Scripture that many have refused to answer-
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

This seems to indicate that man's will had nothing to do with his new birth, but that it was God's doing, then this is this one-
Jas 1:18 [b]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,[/b] that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Joh 1:12 [b]But as many as received him[/b]to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

For by grace are ye saved through [b]Faith[/b], and that not of yourself it is the gift of God, Not of Works, lest any man should boast.

The fact that in john 1:12 he states that as many as [b]received[/b]him to them gave he the prerogative to be called the sons of God. Not by works, or following the letter of the law but by faith. Jesus came into the world and was received, yes received, by a few and to those it was given the right to be the sons of God.\\

The religious of the time only understood being born of the flesh; Nicademous didn't know what it meant to be born again.

There are things on both views that I ponder greatly. One thing that I truly believe is that Calvin and the belief limits God to our time-space continuum. God can see eternal past and future. God can be moved by our prayers, look at Moses's intercession for the children of Israel in the desert when he was going to destroy them. He is not locked in to a your in your out salvation plan.

He is the one who inspired john to write, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him would not perish, but have everlasting life. Now if Calvin is right it should have said whosoever is chosen by Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

Lastly, who is Calvin,
who is Arminius

[b]I am of Christ[/b]

Sean

roaringlamb wrote:
My point in this was simply to show that no one thinks it's unfair for satan and his angels to be sent to hell for sin, but yet it is for man.

roaringlamb wrote:
I am simply trying to show that sin has negated any claim man had on Heaven, thus if God should save not one soul, He is still just, and good, and holy, and love.

Again, I will post one Scripture:

[b]John 1:12-13[/b] [color=990000]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[b]:13[/b] Which were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of [b]a[/b] man, but of God.[/color]

bloods = descendants of Abraham
will of the flesh = merit (choice has no merit)
will of [b]a[/b] man = Not a person, but a fellow, husband, man, sir.

If it was according to your theory, it would use the word "anthropos" not "anayr".

[i]It was not God's sovereignty in unconditional election that John was addressing in this passage at all, nor the lack of man's free choice.
It was purely a contrast between the "natural" ("born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man") and the "supernatural" "but of God".[/i][size=xx-small]© Pristine Faith Restoration Society[/size]

[b]John 1:13[/b] Children born not of natural descent, nor of human effort or a husband's will, but born of God.

John 1:13 Children born not of natural descent, nor of human effort or a husband's will, but born of God.

So, how does this negate what I have been saying? If anything, it affirms what I have been saying, a man cannot birth himself in the natural or spiritual realm, so the issue of a man being born again because of his choice seems to be proven false here does it not?

roaringlamb wrote:

John 1:13 Children born not of natural descent, nor of human effort or a husband's will, but born of God.

So, how does this negate what I have been saying? If anything, it affirms what I have been saying, a man cannot birth himself in the natural or spiritual realm, so the issue of a man being born again because of his choice seems to be proven false here does it not?

I believe the point was that the correct translation isn't "the will of man" (i.e. all humanity, including oneself) but more 'the will of a man' - perhaps 'another man' --> i.e. "men don't pronounce who is saved and who isn't"

The emphasis was also in the context of "those who received Him".

roaringlamb wrote:

John 1:13 Children born not of natural descent, nor of human effort or a husband's will, but born of God.

So, how does this negate what I have been saying? If anything, it affirms what I have been saying, a man cannot birth himself in the natural or spiritual realm, so the issue of a man being born again because of his choice seems to be proven false here does it not?

[u]The authority is the right to[/u] choose to believe.
The term "to become" means what is sais, He gave the oppertunity to become. It doesn't say that "He made the be."

If it is not of choice, it is involantary.
Would you want a spouse wed to you involentarily?
A spouse that you had to brain wash, or coerce into marrying you?

The verse I presented is not about ones self chooseing or inward determination, but of outward determinations; Physical desent, effort, or a husband wanting a child.

This whole post is making me sick.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col. 2:6,7

I don't care if you believe in eternal security or not. It really does't matter, because either way we still have to (Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Heb. 12:14).

So when you meet a man who is not saved, don't try to explain to him the doctrines of men. Point him to Jesus Christ.

You see we think we're so smart with our doctrines and our theology. These doctrines are useless without faith in Jesus Christ. A man can study theology for years, but if he never gets on his knees in child like faith and enters in to communion with Jesus Christ he will never know God.

One thing I know for a fact is WE GOTTA BELIEVE! He is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb. 11:6 Not of them that diligently study theology.

LOVE YOU ALL! Timmyjoe

Well, one thing I do Know is that all Christians are in the precence of God allmighty When They're on Their Knees, and that alone should be enough to make anybody tremble to call themselfs anything. All I know is that I was a sinner and he made me his child. Praise God I am nothing but his.

So, we can call it Jesus Doctrine.

Brother Abe,
I never read anywhere Jesus giving 5 points about God's grace and how it works. I do, however, remember Jesus giving a parable about a sower. This parable explains how the ground (heart) is in different conditions when the seed is sown. Please tell me why it is any harder for a rich man to be saved if God just elects folks. How can the ground be broken and ready to recieve if it is covered in thorns?

The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Ps. 34:18

Oh brother, listen to what I'm telling you. God's election is based on foreknowledge (1Peter 1:2)Of what. Of the ground in which the seed will be sown. I believe God will trouble the waters of a mans life, but will never force his grace on anyone who doesn't want it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deu. 30:19

Our responsibility is to plant the seed, sow the seed, and let God do the rest.

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 1Cor.3:6

We seem to have a hard time believeing if we don't understand everything. I don't understand much at all. Don't let your intellect get in the way of God.

For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. Jer. 4:3

The Word of God is spiritual and no man can explain the ways God works. But we must trust him and do what he has called us to do. BELIEVE!!! Jesus Christ said follow me, so no matter what causes us to do it. We must.

I love you brother, but I cannot agree with a doctrine that puts God in such a small box. We as men will NEVER understand this in this life. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are incorrect. Sure they both have some truth, but should not be used to teach men about God. Point a man to Jesus Christ and then pray. The Holy Spirit will lead into all truth.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Col.2:6,7

With Love-Timmyjoe

A man who preached the gospel in such a way that few have ever preached.

Amen. I love reading brother Spurgeons sermons and writings. Here is my favorite quote of his.

"If sinners be dammed, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies.
If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees.
Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for."
-Charles Spurgeon

And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21

Oh we must plant that seed of life, and pray that one day, whoever it is, they will call upon the name of Jesus Christ.

...How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 10:15

Thank you brother Abe for that clip from your journal. It was very encouraging. Keep preaching this great gospel.

With love-Timmyjoe

moe_mac wrote:
Amen Timmy good post.

Sounds as if we heard some of the same words from HIM. The parable of the seed sower opened up so much more understanding for me after I read it a few years ago and understood it. Here is one of first post on SI.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17915&forum=40&0

Amen, Amen. That is a very eye opening parable. It is very important for us to pray for our eyes to be open to what God has told us in his word.

God Bless-Timmyjoe