Once saved, always saved?

Hello dear brothers and sisters in Christ, My question is; is it possible for a person to lose his or her salvation? I was leaning on the idea that it could not however could not find a verse in scripture to support my claim. In fact i found a scripture that suggested that it is possible to lose salvation. John 15:6 "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV)I am aware that this may have been discussed earlier. However searching through the forum i could not find it. It would be most appreciated if you could shed some truth into the question. Thank you for your time.

Hi Daryl,Excellent question that should bring about some interesting dialouge.My take is: Yes and no.I think that the parable of the sowers (Matt 13) is really instrumental as it applies to this.Following along with the words of our Lord throughout scripture it is very possible to have been decieved as to be true follower. For instance;"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."Mat 7:21-27So in a nutshell, yes, if you have are not truely saved. Too many warnings about guarding yourself against a false assurance;"Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate."2Co 13:5But absolutely not if you are a true disciple:"So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are really my disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."Joh 8:31,32 "My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."Joh 10:27,28Much more could be said...Edit: This thought came:If you have never been found, you are lostIf you have been found, you cannot be lost"So Jesus said to the twelve, "You don't want to leave, too, do you?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. Besides, we have believed and remain convinced that you are the Holy One of God."Joh 6:67-69

This is such a devisive topic among Christians these days, I cringe whenever I hear those words. Therefore I will let others debate this issue but I just want to say this, assurance of salvation does not come from the lips of men, it only comes from the Holy Spirit. In Christ,Ron

I'm with Ron on this one. It's an in-house debate that causes more trouble than it's worth most of the time. I will say there are extremes to both sides of the issue. I have a friend who has at times cursed God for matters as small as a girl breaking up with him, and basically lives in sin. But he goes to the extreme in saying that since he has believed in Christ, he cannot be lost no matter what. Then I have some other friends who believe that if you make the slightest slip you are immediately lost and you had better repent.We should judge ourselves in this matter. Does the Spirit of God witness to our spirits that we belong to Him? That should be the question we ask ourselves.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

I was once praying about this issue when I sensed these words in my heart: "Hold on to the promises; head the warnings" There are great promises of assurance of salvation to those who believe but also some severe warnings about falling away. We must treat each equally, and preachers must preach both as well. I definitely see problems with going to either extreme. There must be balance; we must preach the whole counsel of God. "The man who fears God will avoid all extremes." (Ecclesiastes 7:18) I think many churches get caught up in there own doctrines and neglect to preach the whole Word of God. -Jake Kail

There's some very wise counsel on this topic.I would simply add the following from Hebrews 12:8 (AMP) "Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all]."So if one is not really saved and strays, will God not discipline him if he is one of his children? Believe me, God disciplines (chastens) and I don't believe it's God's first choice but because of our rebellious hearts, He has no choice. I would suggest reading all of the 12th Chapter of Hebrews as well.Because I know my Father will discipline me if I get out of line, I don't really even think about the question you raised much anymore. But I wrestled with this question for at least 30 years because of a number of things, so I pray that God will give you wisdom.

It all depends on your definitions of'once''saved'and 'always' :-P

This is a touchy topic, and one I'm not dogmatic on, but I'd like to share some Scripture that helped me see past my former presuppositions on the matter. Please be patient and understanding, and I pray the Lord will have me be likewise.My question is; is it possible for a person to lose his or her salvation?Short answer: yes.Long answer: if someone is living in sin, they aren't saved, period.1 John 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.1 John 2:3And hereby we know that we know Him: if we keep His commandments.1 John 2:4He that saith, "I know Him," and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.1 John 2:9He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.1 John 3:6Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.1 John 38 He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 By this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother.1 John 3:1515 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer, and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.1 John 52 By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments.3 For this is the love of God: that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not grievous.1 John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.James 114 But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.James 121 Therefore lay apart all filthiness and the superfluity of wickedness, and receive with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 126 If any man among you seem to be religious and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.27 Pure religion, undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and hath not works? Can faith save him?James 217 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, "Thou hast faith, and I have works." Show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe -- and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see then how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also, was not Rahab the harlot justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.Hebrews 12:14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the LordThe question with Eternal Security (or, rather, Perseverance of the Saints) isn't whether someone living in sin is saved, it's whether they ever were saved. Does it matter?Another thing that leads me to question whether there's a practical difference: if you're really saved, and you really love God, wouldn't you want to abstain from all sin simply because of that love for God? If you need to have the threat of hell to keep you from sinning, aren't you still unsaved?For example, if a man sees someone else who is his enemy and is tempted to kill him, even if he doesn't do so it may still be sin. If he doesn't kill the man because there are police around or people who would tell the police, it's still sin. If he doesn't kill the man because the man is important to his social or political agenda or whatnot, it's still sin. If he doesn't kill the man because he believes he would get sent to hell and abstains solely because he doesn't want to go to hell, it's still sin and he's still going! Only if he abstains because God deserves his obediance and he wants to obey God, only then is he free from guilt.But to directly address the question of whether salvation can be lost, I believe this Scripture is very illuminating:James 519 Brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him, 20 let him know that he who converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.It's talking to the "Brethren," saying if any of "you" (meaning one of the Brethren) err from the truth (the error is later specified as sin, "the sinner"), and saying that if anyone "convert" the "sinner" from the error of his way, to "know" that he has saved a "soul" from "death" (obviously spiritual, not physical, death).Note that this is not equivalent to "every time you sin you lose your salvation," James 1:14-15 (quoted above) makes it clear (to me, at least) that there's a process involved before actual spiritual death occurs. 1 John 5:16-17 also speaks of some sins not being unto death (a complicated topic in and of itself):1 John 516 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and He shall give him life, for those who sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that he shall pray about it.17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.I also believe God generally grants us a "space of repentance" as He gave Jezebel:Revelation 221 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not.If you want a thorough treatment on the issue from the side that answers "yes", try www.evangelicaloutreach.org , Dan Corner (for better or worse) has made Conditional vs. Eternal Security his crusade.God's grace be with you all, in Christ Jesus our Lord,-Keith

It all depends on your definitions of'once''saved'and 'always' :-P Quite true, it entirely depends on what we mean by it. Even Finney, as I understand it, believed in Perseverance of the saints, but he probably meant something quite different by it than Spurgeon, Beza or Calvin (I don't know if Calvin ever used the phrase).I think I agree with Leonard Ravenhill: "There is no finality to the Christian life this side of eternity." I'm not sure what he meant by it, though :)

If God will save you today, knowing that you will be lost tomorrow, then he can't be God in my view.As it is written in (KJV) about Jacob & Esau below+++++++++++++++++ROMANS 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) ROMANS 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. ROMANS 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ROMANS 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. ROMANS 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. +++++++++++++++++It is by election that one is saved. And by Grace that one is able to live Godly. IT IS NOT OF WORKS, BUT BY GRACE. AND IF SAVED, YOU WILL LIVE GODLY. IF YOU CAN"T LIVE GODLY (YES WE MAKE MISTAKES) ...For the life that we live as Paul says is Christ (Holy Ghost) living in me.Also in ROMANS 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ROMANS 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. You can't talk about eternal security without eection, predestination, foreknowledge, grace, and the Power of God to change man ..Yes ONCE SAVED, IT is IMPOSSIBLE to be lost .. as it says in HEBREWS 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, HEBREWS 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

ROMANS 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) ROMANS 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. ROMANS 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.Ron (philologos) rightly pointed out in earlier posts that the prophet who Paul is quoting wrote this about Jacob and Esau LONG after their deaths.In fact, This passage is not talking about Jacob and Esau at all but about their descendants. And the prophecy was right; the descendants of Esau served the descendants of Jacob. Jacob became the heir of the promise which Esau despised.Election as some define it does not pertain to salvation but to service. That God had chosen Jacob did not mean that Esau would not be saved, but that Jacob and his descendants would be the people through whom God would reach out to the world.Yes ONCE SAVED, IT is IMPOSSIBLE to be lost .. as it says in HEBREWS 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, HEBREWS 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:6 if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (7) For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; (8)but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.Ok, now that I have opened the can of worms...as Ron would probably say...lolIn Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Thank you for quoting the rest of the Hebrews passage, I would have had to do so otherwise.Ok, now that I have opened the can of worms...as Ron would probably say...lolIt's a can of worms, indeed. But by God's grace we can discuss this in the right Spirit and not sin by pride or hatred or such.May God guide us all,-Keith

I don't believe a person who is once born from above can be "unborn" from above.That said I would say that if I asked a man "Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" and he says "yes", I take it that he is born from above; however if at a later time I ask him the same question and he says "no" then I believe he is not born from above.The question is, was he really born from above to begin with?And does it matter about the past? present? or future? :-o

All believer's have access to the promises of God in Jesus Christ. Not all believers obey the Spirit. Those who continually rebel against the Spirit that is in them will die the second death. "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:13God will not allow unholy people to remain in His kingdom. Paul is very clear on this when he says, "if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Jesus, our high priest is the forerunner of our faith. He will lead you to the cross, and your flesh will be crucified. Then you will know the ressurected life.In ChristJeff

After reflecting on the wise consoul of Ron(s) a couple of things came up. One, it is a rather sinister question the way it is usually defined;'Once saved, always saved'It can imply either doubt, paranoia or false assurance, overconfidence.The question itself smacks of the devil.Secondly, there are really only two possible outcomes;Saved.Not saved.Certainly there is some built in safeguards against listening to the lies of the accuser as well as having a right understanding of the security of the believer. Most of which have been laid out already.I think it was already mentioned before but;Heb 12:6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives." Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten? Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons. If you haven't been taken out behind the barn you might have a pause of concern about your standing.I try to avoid it (the 'barn') as much as possible. Personally I still find it all so amazing that I could be saved from all that I have done, I have to take it on faith that the only way I can approach the Father is through Jesus alone. And though I believe that, to my dying day I will likely live with that undercurrent that not only do I not deserve it, can't do anything to merit it and am completely helpless otherwise, it is still possible that I could fall away, backslide, whatever you want to call it...I do get a bit concerned when I hear people boasting to loudly about their assurance, especially when it is couched in this "always" terminology, it smacks of self confidence, pride, almost a 'deserving' kind of attitude. I hope this makes some kind of sense. In a nut shell:To the cross I cling

Jeff, I tend to agree with you, though I wouldn't have a few years ago when i was a lukewarm Christian living the way i wanted. I was brought up to believe that as long as you said the "prayer", you were "in". While all along I was doing what i wanted and had not surrendered my whole life (and everything that consists of) to the Lord. I had not handed him the keys and gotten in the trunk. :)Now that i know what true surrender is- I know I was not really a christian at all- even if I might have been for a short while (at 12 when I first said the sinner's prayer).Two things stand out to me. The Pilgrims Progress. It's a journey. You are shown the path to follow and then it is up to you to stay on it. There will be obstacles and pitfalls and what are you going to do? Go back, take another side path? No, stay on the narrow path- no matter how hard it is.Remember Jesus said these words "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Mt.7:14If "few find it" then He is either lying or there are alot of Christians who are deceived. hmmmm.Also, I remind myself that we must work out our own salvation with 'fear and trembling'. There is no guarantee as long as I am living my life for myself- as I please. I am not in doubt or fear though, if I am living in obedience to Him.Yes, I fear the Lord! :) But He is so gracious and wonderful, why wouldn't I want to give my all and everything of myself to Him. He can handle "me" better than me.Watchman Nee had a great description in The Normal Christian Life. He said that salvation takes care of the "sin" we have done but the cross (taking up the cross daily) takes care of the "sinner". When we are saved we are forgiven of past sin but what about our old man who needs to be crucified? That has to be done daily too.satisfied in Him, Chanin

I don't believe a person who is once born from above can be "unborn" from above.It's not a matter of being born and then "unborn," I don't think we have any example of such a process in anything. It's a matter of being born and dying. I've quoted this Scripture before but I think it's important to understand conditional security (my variety of it, anyway) :James 114 But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.It's not that you're born and die, born and die, born and die as many times as you sin after conversion, but if you fall into sin and do not repent you will spiritually die. Otherwise James 5:19-20 makes no sense:James 519 Brethren, if any of you err from the truth and one convert him, 20 let him know that he who converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Why would James write, directly addressing the "Brethren" that if any of "you" err from the truth (that error specified in v.20 as sin) and one conver him, let him "know" that he has "saved" a "soul" from "death," if one of the Brethren could not possibly experience spiritual death?The question is, was he really born from above to begin with?I think far more often than lost salvation what we see is false conversion, i.e. the people were never saved at all. Even if they were, it somewhat doesn't matter: on the Day of Judgment, your previous condition(s) don't matter, what matters is what state you were in when you died.

This is one of those things in the bible that seem to go both ways. Yes, God says he will never let go of us. Then you can look at the many scriptures already shared realize perseverance is an absolute necessity. The same goes for baptism. Over here, "Jesus is Lord." Then here, believe and be baptized. When we have multiple scriptures about the same thing, we have to accept them all. (As already said.) They don't contradict each other, they complement each other. Not everything can be said in every passage, so it only makes sense to piece it all together. Specifically with 'once saved, always saved,' I believe the scriptures given suffice, but also like the analogy of the gift. Salvation is a gift from God. A true gift we DO NOT deserve. Much like any other gift, we can tell everyone about our joy in receiving it, or we can through it away. God is not an 'Indian giver,' but we can rip, crumple and dispose of His gift.

Thank you brother and sisters for taking the time to tackle this truth. I really appreciate the scriptures and the opinions expressed. It is my understanding from scripture that salvation comes from faith alone. Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him form the dead, you will be saved." (NIV)However there is also genuine faith; faith that is in Christ alone based on scriptural truth thus allowing a transformation in your life, and a superficial faith; faith in Christ based on others, leading to no true relationship with God. It is also to my understanding that transformation is not “one time event”, but is a constant process in our walk towards being more like Christ. As it is written in Romans 3:10 “There is no one righteous, not even one.” This means that no one can earn right standing with God simply because we are sinners. To state that “if someone is living in sin, they aren’t saved, period.” Suggests that a lot of us are not saved after putting our faith in Jesus Christ because we still sin. I am assuming that “living in sin” means to constantly indulge in it despite the truth being made available. This constitutes that the believer has not a changed in heart (as he/she still loves their sins) and an unchanged heart would mean a superficial relationship with God. The results of a superficial relationship with God can be seen in Matthew 7:21.Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”. This verse simply states that people can “talk” the “talk” but don’t “walk” the “talk”. Our Lord wants a commitment based relationship with us to do right, not just to say “uh-huh at four or five places” (from Paris Reidhead). Therefore if we see our relationship with Christ as the factor that ensures salvation the question is what is a relationship with Christ? To simply put it it’s our acceptance of Him as Savior and our obedience to Him. Obedience as seen in Matthew 7:21 “he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”. How does this then answer the question of “once saved, always saved?”. If salvation is based upon genuine faith, leading to a relationship with God, and if a relationship means acceptance and obedience, how can one lose his or her salvation unless that person chooses deliberately despite the truth to sin? And if that person were to deliberately choose to sin because they still love their sins, doesn’t that suggest that their relationship with God is superficial? What about those who still sin despite having a relationship with God you might ask, then the question is how does their heart feel? Is there guilt? Is there grief? Is there a longing to get right with God for reasons that are not selfish e.g. salvation? Are they afraid that they’ll burn in hell?James 5:19 highlights a believer who has fallen into sin, one who on longer lives a life consistent with his or her beliefs. “My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover a multitude of sins.” James is talking about the importance of repentance, which is to experience sorrow and to seek to change wrong behavior. This illustrates the reaction of a person who has a true relationship with Christ. Repentance comes from a changed heart longing to get right with Him. That is why repentance is important. But has salvation been taken away from him or her? My answer is no. Because if salvation could be taken away by something you did or did not do, that would mean salvation is no longer based on faith, but on deeds. That would mean we are all trying to earn salvation. Salvation is, as our brother nekaras puts it, a gift from God by His grace. Indeed faith without deeds is dead. But deeds are a by-product of faith and not the prime product for salvation. My conclusion is that if you have a true relationship with our savior Jesus Christ, nothing and no one can snatch you out of the Lords hands. John 10:27-29 “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” Sorry this was so long, but thank you for taking the time to read this. Please correct me if I’m incorrect. I pray that what I’ve spoken is of truth and does not cause anyone to stumble. Daryl.

My conclusion is that if you have a true relationship with our savior Jesus Christ, nothing and no one can snatch you out of the Lords hands. Just a thought :-) Does God force us to stay in his hands can we choose to step out of his handsMy security is in the knowlage that I am transformed by the new nature living in me.This compells me to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling,as has already been said.sorry, just my 2 pennys worth

Rev David Pawson from England has written a book titled "Once Saved Always Saved?" which in the UK is available from Anchor Recordings: www.anchor-recordings.com They give the following introduction to the book:"The majority Evangelical view is that once someone has accepted Christ as Saviour, they are guaranteed salvation. But is it safe to assume that once we are saved, we are saved for always?David Pawson investigates this through biblical evidence, historical figures such as Augustine, Luther and Wesley, and evangelical assumptions about grace and justification, divine sovereignty and human responsibility.This book helps us decide whether ''once saved, always saved'' is real assurance or a misleading assumption. The answer will have profound effects on the way we live and disciple others.168 pages"

Chanin, your story seems very similar to mine...thinking I was a Christian for a long time but living my own way and then coming to Christ and surrendering to him and realizing that I was just now being saved...I used to hold to "once saved always saved" too but now Im not so sure about it. Im not 100% sure where I stand but what I dont like about "once saved always saved" is that it leaves no room for, or explanation for falling away, when it is talked about in the Bible. Paul had no problem saying that someone had "fallen away" or "shipwrecked their faith." Like I said earlier, we need to hold to the whole counsel of the Word of God not to the doctrine of men and we need to avoid extremism.-Jake Kail

bgyeo3 wrote:"That is why repentance is important. But has salvation been taken away from him or her? My answer is no. Because if salvation could be taken away by something you did or did not do, that would mean salvation is no longer based on faith, but on deeds."Everything you said I agree with in terms of relationship being a reality. Also I agree with your point on how important repentance is in the life of a believer. We do stumble and God is there faithfully willing to pick us up. Yet repentance is required. God provides the grace, we must change our minds and return to Him. "And he said to him, "Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found." I believe this teaching clearly states that if the wayward son had not chosen to return to His Father, he would have remained lost. Paul writes to Timothy, "This is a faithful saying; For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful He cannot deny Himself." 2Timothy 11-13The essences of the relationship in which you speak requires obedience of us. Two cannot walk together unless they be agreed. A real relationship with our Lord will impart the same joys and suffering He experienced as man. As we grow in maturity our responsibility to Him grows. He will not allow His name to be blasphemed among the heathen. The only purpose for which we live is to glorify Him. The walk may be crooked but the journey will seperate us unto Him.The gift that is freely given must be received by us. The content of the gift will change us into His image. All the things of Christ will be given to us. The choice for us is this, Are we willing to enter into death and recieve the newness of Life?In ChristJeff

Thanks Brian,Believe I have heard about this book. Should be very helpful for those that want more indepth study into this.Came across this verse this morning while working on something else, had forgotten all about it:"Rev 3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Sounds as if the possibilty is there to have your name removed?"[i]I will not--Greek, "I will not by any means." blot out . . . name out of . . . book of life--of the heavenly city. A register was kept in ancient cities of their citizens: the names of the dead were of course erased. So those who have a name that they live and are dead (Rev_3:1), are blotted out of God's roll of the heavenly citizens and heirs of eternal life; not that in God's electing decree they ever were in His book of life. But, according to human conceptions, those who had a high name for piety would be supposed to be in it, and were, in respect to privileges, actually among those in the way of salvation; but these privileges, and the fact that they once might have been saved, shall be of no avail to them. As to the book of life, compare Rev_13:8; Rev_17:8; Rev_20:12, Rev_20:15; Rev_21:27; Exo_32:32; Psa_69:28; Dan_12:1. In the sense of the "call," many are enrolled among the called to salvation, who shall not be found among the chosen at last. The pale of salvation is wider than that of election. Election is fixed. Salvation is open to all and is pending (humanly speaking) in the case of those mentioned here. But Rev_20:15; Rev_21:27, exhibit the book of the elect alone in the narrower sense, after the erasure of the others. JFB Commentary

This subject is a very thorny one in my experience and for a while my response has been that a christian can "fall" from grace in the sense that where there is sin that is not dealt with or a turning from God that person who may have known the Lord's grace could in fact recant that assertion but as I look more and more at the miraculous nature of our rebirth I cannot understand how a born-again Christian can be lost however, there are scriptures that would suggest such a possibility.I do live in absolute certainty that I am saved and will not fall from grace and that assurance isn't something that I can recieve from man - only the Holy Spirit can give that assurance and so this topic to me becomes a bit of a moot point as I continue to know the conviction of the Spirit leading me on to repentance and coming in peace when I am walking right.Thus the way that I now deal with this point is to counsel caution and emphasis the need for a personal confirmation of truth. I certainly would not attempt to, in my counsel, play down the effects and seriousness of sin before God to placate a guilty conscience.The truth of the matter is that the Blood of Christ Jesus cleanses from all sin but it does require application. God BlessJonny

Jkail wrote:"Chanin, your story seems very similar to mine...thinking I was a Christian for a long time but living my own way and then coming to Christ and surrendering to him and realizing that I was just now being saved..."Andrew Murray speaks to this thought. It can be found in his commentary on Hebrews; The Holiest of All?Paraphrasing him, he suggests that all who come to Christ begin their relationship with God under the law. That is to say that we begin as babes in Christ. We are not able to understand the things that are spiritual. See 1 Corinthians the first 3 chapters to understand what Paul teaches about carnal Christians. So in that sense we enter into His forgiveness yet are unable to understand the spiritual. Thus we are under the law. As Chanin and JKail stated there was a change in their life subsequent to their initial baptism. I too have experienced and continue to experience a change in my understanding. Many say that the New Covenant is and unconditional covenant. My question is, when does one enter the New Covenant? The life of Abraham is to be our example. God said to Abraham go to another country. Abraham obeyed. Thirty years or so later, God makes a Coventant with him and changes his name from Abram to Abraham. Paul writes in Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Please notice the condition put before us. What is our response to His call? What must we do? We must put to death the deeds of the body by following the Spirit. This is the condition by which we enter into the New Covenant. Only then can we glorify Him. In ChristJeff

I remember what it was like to have such great confidence in the Bible and in God and in Jesus. I even remember running into a guy who said he knew he wasn't chosen for heaven. I prayed for him, because I thought how sad that anyone could reach such a conclusion--that God had essentially no interest in saving him.TODAY I feel like that same man. I REALLY REALLY think I was saved by any definition that a preacher would give. If Calvinism is true, then you can study me as one pathetic example of someone that "God was not pleased to save"...go home and give thanks that you were not me.The ironic thing is: That first Calvinistic sermon I heard 10+ years ago, was the beginning of this losing faith process. It opened the pandora's box of doubts about God and his goodness...and it's been downhill from there.Right now, I want to believe...but I can't---seems like its over.

Carlos, Brother.I am not even close to being anything of an expert on all this Calvin/Armenian 'issue'. But as I alluded to elsewhere I believe it is a colossal waste of time, trying to figure out what is meant by 'predestination' and who, what, when, if...There has to be some kind of misunderstanding about it all if all these great minds can't come to grips with it after all this time.If this is the result of where this 'doctrine' leads then we would be better off banishing it from the language.As far as I am concerned and I have no desire to go back into the whole 'issue' IT IS NOT OVER!A thousand times NO!I am sure you know enough scripture to know what it means to be saved. Forget all this nonsense about trying to figure out the Mind of God. I think this has been lurking in the back of my mind for awhile, that this very possibility was there, from this doctrine. Now I have to pour it all out.Brother I am praying for you like I don't know what. I pray you will respond back here.It seems we can do ourselves and others a great disservice, goodness we are talking about peoples salvations here, by all this mincing of words. Same goes for the "Once saved always saved" issue.Maybe, just maybe, we need to really simplify this instead of pitting scripture against scripture and getting lost in a maze of doubts.I threw this one out there before and it got by quietly;Are you saved? Truly saved, as in repented of your sins, and "Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Then you were 'predestined. Period.As far as the other issue goes there is only one thing that I can find to solve that, it's "believe" which is a continuance, an active, in motion word, not something you do once and then put in your back pocket. Certainly there will be growth and fruit as you continue on "believing". But, the Lord is not going to cast you off, Jesus did not come here to save 'some' but all.Why it is our 'duty' to try and figure out the mind of God on all this is beyond me.The devil is in all this. Over emphasizing the wrong things and underemphasizing the right things.'Once saved always saved', I think it was Jeremy that originally said it, but now I think I really see it, why he was so reluctant to get into it, sorry brother if I am mis-stating this and or you.But I repent of whatever I may have opinion-ed of my little pea brain about this that was wrong.This is a man made statement that is really not there in scripture...it's like a round square.We have the horse before the cart on all this. Same with "ask Jesus into your heart" all these things.We need to get back to basics, back to the simplicity that is the Gospel. It IS GOOD NEWS! Not a bunch of mental gymnastics or laying heavy burdens on people. Jesus said MY burden is LIGHT.It is repentance.It is forsaking of sin.It is a narrow path.It is NOT easy.It is sacrifice.And surrender.And obedience.But it is all a matter of the HEART!And the Lord PROMISED that HE would be the one to preform it in us, we just have to let HIM.Oh Lord, open our eyes!Open our ears to hear!Open our hands so You can take and give as You please.Open our hearts to You.Fill us with The Holy Spirit.Oh Lord reveal yourself to us and reveal Yourself to Carlos, let him KNOW that he is loved by You.Strip away all these useless thought's Lord, let us think Your thoughts after You.In Your Holy Name, the Name above all names, in Your Name Lord Jesus, I pray. Amen.Carlos it is NOT OVER.

Brother Carlos:Do not fear men but fear God. God is faithful He can not deny Himself. I exhort you to read the Holy Scriptures and forget about man's thoughts. Let God give you His thoughts. Let Him show you His faithfulness. Believe every word of the Bible. He will give you understanding of how everything fits together. Do not allow men to make you their disciples. The times God has spoken to me through Scripture have been times of anguish and crying out to Him. I believe you are in the right place to hear. Trust in Him and live in the Holy Scriptures. He will lift you up with wings of an eagle.In ChristJeff

Carlos,Here is a message that I trust will be of encouragement to you in your struggle;Ever Present Help In TroubleIn Christ,Ron

I came across this thought today. "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among THOSE WHO PERISH, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved." 2 Thesssalonians 2:9-10 Now Paul teaches that all are dead unless they are born from above. In this Scripture above the Thessalonians are being warned of the deception that will come and thus we are also warned. Paul says that those who perish do so because they "did not receive the love of the truth." So these people perish because they chose not to love the truth. And because of their refusing to love the truth, Paul writes,"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thes. 2:11-12 How does this thought support or deny irressistible grace? Calvinism stands or falls on whether grace is irressistible. In Christ Jeff

I personally believe in "eternal security", but will not allow this doctrinal difference of opinion to keep me from the fellowship and love of saints that don't ... In fact I attend a church where "eternal security" is not believed ... I believe that once someone genuinely accepts Christ, even though they may secumb again to weaknesses of the flesh, that they are sealed unto the day of redemption ... Anyway here is a scripture that I base this belief on ...Paul is writing to the Corinthian's about fornication going on in the congregation (worse than in the world) and he says ... 1Cor.5 [1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. [2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. [3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, [4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.The phrase I find most interesting in the scripture is "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" ... Paul didn't say judged, or re-judged, but saved ... in the day of the Lord Jesus ...My belief in "eternal security" works well for me in that it makes me even more aware of my undeserved grace from God ... I feel even more conscious of my sins because of it, and am driven to quick repentance because of His love towards me, instead of any potential wrath ... It has been my Christian experience that He loves me into submission ... And I thank Him so much for His long suffering, and loving kindness.

Brother Rahman,First, I hear your heart. I do not fear that you have come short in any way. I myself strive to speak to those who place their hope or faith in words and have somehow missed Paul's cries for the brethren to press forward, forgetting the things of the past and looking upward to the call of our Lord. Only this perspective will guard one from becoming lukewarm, who Jesus will spew from His mouth. In ChristJeff

Brother Jeff you posted:((( Brother Rahman,First, I hear your heart. I do not fear that you have come short in any way. )))Well brother Jeff I want you to know that I also hear the sincerity and honesty of your blessed heart, and thank our Lord for it ... Pressing on toward the mark of a higher calling, now that's an awesome aspiration! ... I wish that I could live up to not having come up short in any way, but I can't, even now, some 25 years into my salvation ... I cringe every time I read where the Apostle Paul said that he was "chief sinner" amongst us all ... I might have agreed with him prior to the Damascus road, but he himself treated what we would concider his righteousness, as filthy rags ... Talk about humility ... So no we/I'm way guilty of Rom.3 [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; but bless His Holy Name for the verses that follow; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. ... Thru our Lord Jesus Christ we are SAVED!Brother Jeff you also posted:(((I myself strive to speak to those who place their hope or faith in words and have somehow missed Paul's cries for the brethren to press forward, forgetting the things of the past and looking upward to the call of our Lord. Only this perspective will guard one from becoming lukewarm, who Jesus will spew from His mouth. )))Amen, and keep striving my brother ... In fact set an example in just that for it seems the ministry God has given you ... God forbid any saint should come to "place their hope or faith in words", but it's obvious that so many of us have ... How will such folk be awakened from this satanic stupor unless trumpets are blown in Zion ... And bless God we all know that trumpets are silent without "trumpeters" ... So keep blowing God's truth like Gabriel ... AmenLet us all pray one for the other,Brother R

Brother Rahman, Do you believe we can please God? I came across this thought when researching Charles Finney. In ChristJeff

Being one who thoroughly identifies with King David, a thousand times yes to your question Brother Jeff, and a few scriptures for blessed assurance ...Pss.69[30] I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving.[31] This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs.Prov.16[7] When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.Isa.56[4] For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;Rom.8: [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.1Cor.7[32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:1Thes.4[1] Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.[2] For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.[3] For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:[4] That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;[5] Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:[6] That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.[7] For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.2Tim.2[1] Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.[2] And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.[3] Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.[4] No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.Heb 11: [5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.HOW TO PLEASE GOD:[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.OT EXAMPLES OF FOLK THAT PLEASED GOD:[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:[10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.[11] Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.[12] Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.[14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.[15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.[16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,[18] Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:[19] Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.[21] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.[22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.[24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;[25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;[26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.[27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.[28] Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.[29] By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.[30] By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.[31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:[33] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,[34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.[35] Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:[36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;[38] (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.Everyone of these saints in the Hebrews walk of faith were prone to making mistakes, and many made quite a few with quick repentance being key, but thank His holy Person that He's more interested in our hearts than a perfect track record ... Amen

Rahman, wow thanks for the work.My point in asking this question is to clarify or distinguish between the sometimes misquoted thougth of our works being filthy rages, and the opportunities God gives us to please Him. I believe many lump all works into the first category. Yet for those who are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10Good works are the result of us obeying God. So righteousness is learned as we obey. Man's thoughts, his carnal mind is incapable of pleasing God. Yet for those who are led by the Holy Spirit, the evidence of who they obey will frame a picture of their faith. So those who have like faith as Abraham will be saved and God knows this before the foundation of the world.In ChristJeff

Brother Rahman,My last post on this thread is not meant to confront you, but by means of conversation, my intent is to bring out a point that I find many are not clear on. God Bless In ChristJeff

Brother Jeff,I don't view any of our postings as confrontational but as being one in the Spirit ... I'm learning much from you and so many others of you as to what the Holy Ghost is speaking/ working in your lives, minds, hearts and spirits ...I love you, and all the rest of the saints on SI, as Christ loves me, and I know that pleases Him ... Amen

Brother Daniel,Thankyou for your thoughts. I agree with you in respect to how you have defined or framed the doctrine. I have one exception to your statement, "Eternal security is this: God will keep those whom He has saved untro the end, and He will keep them by giving them the Grace to run the Race in holiness and in truth and in all godly conduct."I believe Scripture also gives us warnings. Is not the story of King Solomon given to us as an example of someone who God poured out His grace in every way imaginable. Yet what does Scripture teach us? Did not Solomon choose to worship other gods on the high places? In numerous places in Scripture Solomon is charged with this offense. I point this out to illustrate that God's grace directs our steps but He also leaves it up to us to choose between obedience or spiritual adultery. Solomon according to your statement did not fulfill the race in holiness and godly conduct. Romans 8 teaches us that we as believers have the choice to obey the Spirit or not. In ChristJeff

Brother Daniel,Everything about the discussion revolves around the doctrine of irresistible grace. This is my thought on this subject.1. Man is totally depraved. Romans 3. 2. Without God's grace which creates a change in man, man is lost. 3. God cannot lie. 4. God is not wiling that any should perish but come to repentance. 5. God is the one who grants repentance through the workings of His grace. 6. Therefore God gives light to everyone who comes into the world. John 1:9 "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." 7. "Then God said, "Let there be light", and there was light... Genesis 1:3 8. Grace can be regected. 1 Corinthians 15:10 9. Irresistible grace denies faith. In Christ Jeff

I'm a freewill calvinist, or a reformed arminian depends with whom I'm speaking :-)

I guess I should clarify what I believe a little. Norman Geisler would call my views somewhat of a form of moderate Calvinism with the exception of limited atonement and perseverence of the saints (the latter, one could make an argument from God's point of view however.)I certainly disavow the extreme calvinism of Sproul, Piper, and James White. To say that God coerces us to make free decisions is not only a contradiction of reason but is also a contradiction that collapses in on itself. I also don't buy into Jonathon Edwards description of us being "given" the desire to freely love.(This is tantamount to me reprogramming my computer to say "I love you." This is not true freedom and not true love.) I believe that man is free and that God is soveriegn. A good example is the betrayel of Jesus:"And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"Here we see that it was determined that Jesus would be betrayed, but at the same time we see that the man(judas) who betrayed Christ is responsible for his actions. In other words, he acted freely without coercion. Here is how it can be explained:(1) God knows all things (omniscience)(2) Whatever God foreknows must come to pass(ie determined). If it did not come to pass, then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew. But an all-knowing Being cannot be wrong in what He foreknows. a good description of omniscience is that God knows immdediately all possible knowledge past present and future both actual and possible(3) God knew Judas would betray Christ.(4) Therefore, it had to come to pass(ie was determined) that Judas would betray Christ.If God has infallible knowledge of future free acts, then the future is completely determined.Here's something else to think about: God's being is absolutely necessary. In other words it depends on absolutely nothing, but everything absolutely depends on Him. Then it follows that God's foreknowledge of the future is not dependant on future free acts, but is independant of them. Now, OSAS. From our point of view we have warnings of people "falling away from the faith," warnings to Christians in the seven churches of Revelation to repent. We have examples of men in both the old and new testaments following and apparently receiving the blessings of God only to fall away. We are told to persevere till the end, hold fast to our faith, contend for our faith, even examin ourselves to see if we remain in the faith. We are told to guard the trust, and restore gently those who have fallen with a warning to true believers to beware lest we fall into the temptations that have overtaken those we seek to restore. The Church Fathers with the exception of Augustine all taught that one could fall away (an excellent writing was that of John Chrysostom to his friend Theodore). Later in Augustine's life he began to teach that one could not really know if they were saved or not!From God's point of view He sees the future both actual and possible. In other words as creatures with a free choice we are contingent(capable of change). That means that although God knows our actual future, we don't and there is the possibility of our choices to go either way(though God knows the one we will actually choose). Being free, God pleads with us and sends His servants to us to call us to Himself.However, God also knows the end, and who will be on the Lord's side at that time. From the standpoint of His foreknowledge I can agree with once saved always saved. Because with Him it is settled already who will be saved and who won't.But from our point of view we must continually believe, and continually trust until the end. I believe that the Greek implies this that words like believe and trust could be translated "believe and keep on believing," "trust and keep on trusting."Well that's my two cents worth. Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters too much.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Brother Daniel wrote:"I believe in the TULIP (Calvanism) and I have never denied Faith or THE Faith, Brother."It was not my intention to criticize you in any way. My endeavor was to point to the fact that the idea of irresistible grace excludes the second part of God's plan of salvation. God initiates all, He is the "I AM." God gives light to every man coming into the world in the work of Emmanuel. The Scriptures teach throughout the OT and NT that this grace that He gives to men provides the means by which men can respond to His call. This response is faith.We are saved by grace through faith. Faith brings about the evidence of what men strive for. The evidence of our faith in God will witness to the world who our lives glorify. This then is the perserverance of the saints. The teaching of irresistible grace will diminish the search for the meaning of faith in each individual. We know that faith comes by hearing the rhema of God. I have observed that many rest in the definitions of doctrines. True love for God and man are a result of following Him. He demands obedience, are we willing to obey. This is what faith is all about. In ChristJeff

Here is how I see T.U.L.I.P. in a more balanced sense.(Extreme)T: Total depravity is intensive on the nature of a man or descructive to the image of God. *many extreme calvanists would deny this in word but affirm it in practice.(Moderate) T: Total depravity is extensive or corruptive on the nature of man. The image of God (the moral attributes imparted to man) is still there but is marred by a sinful nature.(Extreme) U: Unconditional election places no conditions on God or man.(Moderate) U: Unconditional election places no conditions on God; the one condition for man is faith.(Extreme) L: Limited atonement is limited in its extent; it's only for the elect and not offered to all.(Moderate) L: Limited atonement is limited in result, but for all men. This would follow that the completed work on calvary makes all men savable but is only realized in those who meet the condition of faith.(Extreme) I: Irresistable grace is compulsive or against a man's will.(Moderate) I: Irresistable grace is persuasive or in accordance with man's will. This could be accruately called synergism. I don't see synergism as bad, but as biblical. *synergism means that man cooperates with God by meeting the condition of faith(Extreme) P: Perseverance of the Saints means that ultimately no Saint will die in sin.(Moderate) P: Perseverance of the Saints from our point of view requires faith till the end. (Whether we fall in the middle or not is not as important as how we finish. John Chrysostom said that it's not a fall that destroys the man, but his remaining on the ground that destroys him.)From God's point of view perseverance is determined by the fact that He knows the end from the beginning.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

unbelievers HATE GodWhat kind of a statement is that?

Hey everyoneI agree with Pastor D’s statement about unbelievers hating God primarily because of the reason that biblical love and hate is not always the emotional kind. For example, Jesus said, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” John 14:21Again in John 14, “23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”Even so, I suppose the main one is this one from Mathew 6, “No man can serve two masters: for either he will HATE the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”James

Mat 6:24He will hate the one and love the other - The word hate has the same sense here as it has in many places of Scripture; it merely signifies to love less - so Jacob loved Rachel, but hated Leah; i.e. he loved Leah much less than he loved Rachel. God himself uses it precisely in the same sense: Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated; i.e. I have loved the posterity of Esau less than I have loved the posterity of Jacob: which means no more than that God, in the course of his providence, gave to the Jews greater earthly privileges than he gave to the Edomites, and chose to make them the progenitors of the Messiah, though they ultimately, through their own obstinacy, derived no more benefit from this privilege than the Edomites did. How strange is it, that with such evidence before their eyes, men will apply this loving and hating to degrees of inclusion and exclusion, in which neither the justice nor mercy of God are honored!Clarke's Commentary

Neither can I yours.None of the verses you you mentioned prior could buttress up your flat statement of "unbelievers hate God". It is painfully obvious that many do, but to stroke a broad brush across them all in this way is unnecessary at best. To state:The fact that unbelievers HATE God is a truth which Christ taught extensively.Is just as odd, extensively?And the reference to Mat 6:24 was in response to Jame's reply. Thought the point may came across at the end of the commentary.Before the Lord brought me to Himself would I not have been considered an 'unbeliever'? And though I was raised a Catholic and strayed off into all kinds of sinful living, deserved hell and did not want to come to the light lest my deeds be exposed, I never once "hated" God. Confused, misguided, ignorant, rebellious to His standards, at times prideful, arrogant, foolish and more.But from even very early childhood I knew there was a God and I feared Him and I would say even that I loved Him at least my own 'idea' of what that meant at the time. But "hate", no.You are wrong.

Hello again!I often say to myself, it is unfortunate that it is difficult to convey tone our writings. Once was the member of a debating society and I gained quite a reputation for my speeches. A friend of mine was not very articulate and so he asked me to write a speech for him. At the time, I loved to write and so I gladly accepted. I do not recall what I wrote about but I remember thinking to myself how balanced that particular depiction was. I was almost sad to let him take the credit for it. Luckily (so I thought) When he gave the speech, he was very modest, and declared to everyone that I had written the speech and our instructor gave me a subtle nod with a smile of approval. He gave the speech, and you could hear a pin drop but it was not for the reason I was hoping for because you see, it did not sound at all like the speech I had written for him, but it was. He is not a person I would call arrogant exactly, but he is a little tactless. The tone of his voice and his body language made it seem as if I was the most conceited person on the planet! I was more than a little embarrassed. To be honest with you, it was not all his fault. When I write something, I sometimes tend to have a certain tone and expressiveness (or lack thereof) in my head so that if someone else reads it to himself or herself, they may miss the meaning.I did not write this to give you an autobiography of my life but to expose things that may hinder our communication with one another brethren. If we have a preconceived notion, (however we derived it) of someone, it will carry right into the message. As human beings, we have emotions and these sometimes hinder impartiality. Let us remember that faith cometh by hearing and the Word of God teaches us to listen.Pastor Daniel, form my standpoint there is nothing wrong with the way you write; you have not offended me even once, by what you say. However, if I am going to be impartial, I must note that this is not the first time something you have written has been “misread”. This happens in forums and precisely the reason why people come here is to discuss issues. It is not always possible for us to conclude a discussion, thus declaring one man’s opinion right and another wrong. As you are a pastor, I am sure you are used to instructing people in the way of the Lord. It is unfortunate that this is not the best medium for instruction sometimes. Being that this is a forum people are entitled to their opinions and it is their privilege to either accept or reject what you say. You should not loose heart if people do not agree with you or misunderstand you. It happens in discussions. Still I do not think it is entirely your fault. When you make statements they are very general, and I suspect with good intentions but the authority you speak with can be offensive to some people. If you say anything in a forum, it is open to discussion whether you are right or wrong. It can be perceived as condescending when you refuse to discuss something in a forum. Sometimes when you feel like you are being attacked, “walking away” is not always the best solution. Usually if we talk something out the misunderstandings come to the surface at some point.I know I’ve picked on you Pastor D, you certainly were not the only one to be “aggressive” (for a lack of better words) in this discussion but I hope you will take this one for the team. In meekness of spirit we must continue to “tip toe” around each other, esteeming every man better than ourselves.Your son in ChristJames

Just a wee question:If God saved you, and you were then lost, has he finished the work he began in you?

Brother Ruairidh,I answer your question with another, when is one saved, not by man's will, but by God?In ChristJeff

Are we saved by God or by ourselves?!!Surely God saves us, but we have to be intimately involved: i.e. our will must be won over. But surely we are not saved by our own will.I personally believe that any man that has truly been saved, having been saved by God will be brought home by Him. But I too have a real concern that many people rest in this as some kind of excuse for not living holy, commited, dedicated lives for God. Where are the kingdom people who will surrender everything for the glory of God.I fear many people who hold a 'once saved, always saved' doctrine have never been saved at all, but use this doctrine as a cushion, whilst their lives deny the very Saviour they claim as their own.

Amen Brother Ruairidh,Where are the kingdom people who will surrender everything for the glory of God.God has brought my own walk under this question. I know He is faithful, yet I stumble. Everyone preaches grace, grace, yet where is the faith?In ChristJeff

I personally believe that any man that has truly been saved, having been saved by God will be brought home by Him.Quite an understandable belief, held by even those puritans most insistent on holiness. I believe something more like "once elect, always elect," but also that someone can never get to the point in this life where they can say (without explicit revelation from God) that they will never fall and thus wind up being eternally lost unless they repent.Personally, I believe passages like James 5:19-20 and Galatians 5:2-4 & 19-21 refer to the real possibility of a believer falling into sin and eventually (unless he/she repents) spiritual death.But I too have a real concern that many people rest in this as some kind of excuse for not living holy, commited, dedicated lives for God. ...I fear many people who hold a 'once saved, always saved' doctrine have never been saved at all, but use this doctrine as a cushion, whilst their lives deny the very Saviour they claim as their own.This is my primary concern in this matter. If a professing Christian would live more holy if they thought they could lose their salvation, why aren't they willing to live like that even if there's absolutely no possibility of them not going to heaven?Even the most solid Calvinists among my friends agree that if a person is living in willful sin and does not desire to remedy the situation, they're not regenerate (the question is whether they ever were, which isn't strictly important).

My humble thoughts..The Bible teaches that we are a new creature in Christ.(2 Cor. 5:17) Do we turn back into an old creature again if we sin?Also, at what point does the blood of Jesus stop covering our sin? Where is the point that a true Christian is not saved anymore? Is it after the 2nd lie? The 10th cuss word? The 3rd lustful thought? I believe that the Bible teaches that we are eternally secure in Christ. Eternal means "eternal". Not "until I sin a lot." Those who denounce Christ never had Him to begin with.Just my 2 cents.

Thank you for the questions, I hope my answers are in the appropriate spirit of "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."The Bible teaches that we are a new creature in Christ.(2 Cor. 5:17) Do we turn back into an old creature again if we sin?No, but sin begins the process of spiritual death.James 114 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.James 519 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.Galatians 67 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Also, at what point does the blood of Jesus stop covering our sin?A few cases come to mind:1) Unforgivingness towards brothersMatthew 1821 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' 27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' 29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' 30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."2) Acceptance of a wrong plan of salvation (or, at least, the specific plan of salvation relying on obedience to the Mosaic Law)Galatians 52 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Can we be "severed" from that which we were never connected? Can we "fall" from a grace we never had?(note: Paul presumably isn't talking about literal circumcision, as he circumcised Timothy [Acts 16:3], not to pursue that plan of salvation, but for other reasons)3) Living according to the sinful natureGalatians 5:19-2119 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.The warning is to Christians, but I suppose some (probably because they want to, but I probably do that too) could interpret the warning as being "those who live like this were never Christians to begin with." I don't have a personal problem with that idea, but I don't think it fully fits the relevant Scripture.Where is the point that a true Christian is not saved anymore? Is it after the 2nd lie? The 10th cuss word? The 3rd lustful thought?"sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death," it doesn't give a specific time frame or number of infractions or such. The point (as I see it) isn't really what you've done, but whether you have forsaken the Lord in your heart; though the Scriptures seem to focus more on whether or not you "live like this" and such. Another passage I think (might be wrong) is helpful here:Revelation 220 Notwithstanding, I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess,to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not.22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.Finally, there is one sin that the Bible is extremely clear cannot coexist with regeneration:1 John 3:15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. I believe that the Bible teaches that we are eternally secure in Christ. Eternal means "eternal". Not "until I sin a lot."I believe that the Bible teaches that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10), and thatRevelation 218 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."Note that the "unbelieving" are only one group named here, not even the first of them.Interestingly, I could phrase my beliefs in the matter as "I believe that the Bible teaches the believer has conditional eternal security, in that there is no time limit and the security is eternal unless the believer leaves said security." But that would probably be borderline-disingenuous like the liberal John Hick's "I don't deny the deity of Christ any more than I deny the deity of everyone else."Those who denounce Christ never had Him to begin with.I don't have a personal problem with that idea, but is it consistent with Scripture? Was Peter saved when he denied the Lord, or would you say that the situation was different before Pentecost?Just my 2 cents.Thank you for the contribution, though I've heard these objections before.Just curious: are you taking the Puritan position of Perseverance of the Saints with the caveat that we can never truly know in this life whether or not we're saved? Or the position that says you can know, and thus, if you were so inclined (though most would say you would never be so inclined) you could sin all you want with absolutely no fear of judicial consequences on Judgment day?

Thank you for the reply. You did well in demonstrating fruitful speech. :-) Just curious: are you taking the Puritan position of Perseverance of the Saints with the caveat that we can never truly know in this life whether or not we're saved? Or the position that says you can know, and thus, if you were so inclined (though most would say you would never be so inclined) you could sin all you want with absolutely no fear of judicial consequences on Judgment day?The Bible teaches of the deep abiding peace and joy that we have as believers. Also, the reason 1 John was written: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 5:13Deep down, men know where they stand before God. Also, it will be evidenced in their fruit.And, as you said, those who are truly saved would not be inclined to turn away from God and live a life of sin. A life of sin would be an indication of no salvation. Matthew 7:16-23 "16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."Those who cried "Lord, Lord" and didn't actually mean it went through the motions, but their was no change in their heart. They were trying to work for their salvation. God never knew them.Thanks for the dialogue. I wish I had more time to put together a well thought out response, but I have two books(on the life and theology of Paul - good stuff) to finish for a class on Monday and I must get to work.I should have more time to discuss next week.In Him,Ri0tdude

The Bible teaches of the deep abiding peace and joy that we have as believers. Also, the reason 1 John was written: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 5:13Deep down, men know where they stand before God.I agree to the extent that believers can have true assurance of salvation (deep down, those not right with God do know, but their capacity for self-deception may prevent that from being helpful). And yes, one of the main purposes (if not the main purpose) of 1 John is that the readers may know whether or not they are truly saved.One of the reasons I do not accept full Reformed theology is the claim that we can never truly know that we are saved in this life (Calvin taught the existence of "evanescent grace," essentially grace that could make a person look like a Christian, act more or less like a Christian, have everyone fairly convinced that he is a Christian, but never actually be regenerate), which seems incompatible with Paul's inspired references to Timothy and others as Christians, as well as the multiple addresses to groups through the epistles as "saints" (i.e. the writers knew there was at least someone saved on the receiving end).Also, it will be evidenced in their fruit.And, as you said, those who are truly saved would not be inclined to turn away from God and live a life of sin. A life of sin would be an indication of no salvation.I'm ok with unconditional securists who accept the standard of "By their fruits ye shall know them," since they believe essentially the same on the question "who goes to Heaven?," though even that's not the primary thing for me. The question is what the Bible teaches on whether there are some who become truly regenerate and then fall away (that is, the disagreement isn't whether these people are saved, it's whether they ever were).I have noticed, however, that such ("Lordship salvationists" might be a good term) seem considerably more reluctant than their conditional securist counterparts to tell people living in sin that they aren't saved, and there also can be a tremendous (possibly unbiblical) emphasis on "you'd better be really, really, really, really sincere" conversions when one believes all the backsliding is due to false conversion.Those who cried "Lord, Lord" and didn't actually mean it went through the motions, but their was no change in their heart. They were trying to work for their salvation. God never knew them.Those particular ones, I'll grant, seem (to me) to be utter strangers to regeneration. Many, perhaps most, of those who "backslide" never slid forward in the first place (the numbers are particularly staggering nowadays); however, this passage does not exclude the possibility of someone becoming truly regenerate and then falling away, as is implied in:Galatians 5 (NASB)2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.As I asked last time, is it possible for someone to be "severed from Christ" that was never connected to Christ? Or is there a sort of connection to Christ that is not regenerating? Or is this statement by Paul purely hypothetical? ; Similarly, can someone who has never received saving grace fall from it? Or is this referring to a non-saving grace (evanescent, perhaps)?One other question, about what it means for God to say he never knew someone.1 John 36 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.Even I'm reluctant to take this one at face value (and yes, I've heard that the "sinneth"s are aorist present tense indicating continuous action or "continuing in sin" or some such, but either way), what do you make of it?Thanks for the dialogue. I wish I had more time to put together a well thought out response, but I have two books(on the life and theology of Paul - good stuff) to finish for a class on Monday and I must get to work.Thank you, I hope and pray the Lord guides you to accomplish His will, to get from those books what He would have you get from them, and survive school and work.

BROTHERS AND SISTERS I BELIEVE THAT THE ANSWER TO THIS ? IS VERY SIMPLE.I DO NOT MEAN TO INSULT ALL OF THE WONDERFUL ANSWERS SO FAR BUT JESUS SAID WE NEED TO COME AS LITTLE CHILDREN AND LITTLE CHILDREN ARE VERY TRUSTING ARENT THEY?A CHRISTIAN IS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN UNITED WITH CHRIST (GAL 2:20) NOT ONLY IN HIS DEATH BUT ALSO IN HIS LIFE.OUR SALVATION HAS NEVER BEEN BASED ON WHAT WE DO (UNITED IN HIS DEATH)ALSO OUR SANCTIFACATION HAS NEVER BEEN BASED ON OUR WORKS EITHER(UNITIED IN HIS LIFE ) OUR TRUST HAS TO BE IN THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS CHRIST, THE GOOD NEWS IS JUST THAT. GOOD NEWS!!!! IF OUR SALVATION WAS LEFT UP TO ANYTHING WE DID OR DO THAN WE WOULD BE IN BIG TROUBLE. NOW AS TO EVIDANCE OF OUR SALVATION. HERE'S THE SIMPLE PROOF. BEFORE WE ARE SAVED WE ARE NOT ABLE NOT TO SIN. NOW WE ARE ABLE NOT TO SIN (NOT PERFECTIONISM!!!) YOU SEE BEFORE SALVATION WE DON'T CARE ABOUT SINNING(NO CONSCIENCE) AFTER WE ARE SAVED THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL REWIRING OFOURSELVES I.E. NEW CREATURE NOW WE CARE WHEN WE SIN .WE HATE IT . THE TRICK IS TO KEEP CONFESSING OUR SIN TO GOD AS SOON AS WE DO IT. YOU CANT OUT CONFESS GOD .WHEN WE CONFESS OUR SINS TO GOD IN AN UNPROTESTING MANNER I.E. THE SAMERITAN LEPER IN LUKE CH 17. HE IS MOVED WITH COMPASSION FOR US . OUR DESPERATION IS THE CURENCY OF HEAVEN.OUR OBEDIANCE NOW COMES OUT OF PURE JOY WHEN WE UNDERSTAND HIS LOVE FOR US IS UNCONDITIONAL AND TOTALLY BASED ON THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS.THERE IS MORE CLARIFACTION THAT CAN BE GIVEN UPON REQUEST BUT I HOPE THIS WILL DO FOR KNOWIN CHRIST RPG

While it is very important to consider the finished work of Chirst, I think you are taking Scriptural concepts and reasoning from what you think they mean, rather than what would be consistent with the rest of Scripture.In the articles section there's a piece by A.W. Pink (a staunch Calvinist, actually slightly hyper-calvinist according to some) on the finished work of Christ, helps clarify:It is FinishedHow terribly have these blessed words of Christ been misunderstood, misappropriated and misapplied! How many seem to think that on the cross the Lord Jesus accomplished a work which rendered it unnecessary for the beneficiaries of it to live holy lives on earth. So many have been deluded into thinking that, so far as reaching heaven is concerned, it matters not how they walk provided they are "resting on the finished work of Christ." They may be unfruitful, untruthful, disobedient, yet (though they may possibly miss some millennial crown) so long as they repudiate all righteousness of their own and have faith in Christ, they imagine they are "eternally secure."All around us are people who are worldly-minded, money-lovers, pleasure-seekers, Sabbath-breakers, yet who think all is well with them because they have "accepted Christ as their personal Saviour." In their aspiration, conversation, and recreation, there is practically nothing to differentiate them from those who make no profession at all. Neither in their home-life nor social-life is there anything save empty pretensions to distinguish them from others. The fear of God is not upon them, the commands of God have no authority over them, the holiness of God has no attraction for them."It is finished." How solemn to realize that these words of Christ must have been used to lull thousands into a false peace. Yet such is the case. We have come into close contact with many who have no private prayer-life, who are selfish, covetous, dishonest, but who suppose that a merciful God will overlook all such things provided they once put their trust in the Lord Jesus. What a horrible perversion of the truth! What a turning of God’s grace "into lasciviousness"! (Jude 4). Yes, those who now live the most self-seeking and flesh-pleasing lives, talk about their faith in the blood of the Lamb, and suppose they are safe. How the devil has deceived them!"It is finished." Do those blessed words signify that Christ so satisfied the requirement of God’s holiness that holiness no longer has any real and pressing claims upon us? Perish the thought. Even to the redeemed God says, "Be ye holy, for I am holy" (1 Pet. 1:16). Did Christ "magnify the law and make it honorable" (Isa. 42:21) that we might be lawless? Did He "fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15) to purchase for us an immunity from loving God with all our hearts and serving Him with all our faculties? Did Christ die in order to secure a divine indulgence that we might live to please self? Many seem to think so. No, the Lord Jesus has left His people an example that they should "follow (not ignore) His steps.""It is finished." What was "finished? The need for sinners to repent? No indeed. The need for turning to God from idols? No indeed. The need for mortifying my members which are upon earth? No indeed. The need for being sanctified wholly, in spirit, and soul, and body? No indeed. Christ died not to make my sorrow for, hatred of, and striving against sin, useless. Christ died not to absolve me from the full discharge of my responsibilities unto God. Christ died not so that I might go on retaining the friendship and fellowship of the world. How passing strange that any should think that He did. Yet the actions of many show that this is their idea."It is finished." What was "finished?" The sacrificial types were accomplished, the prophecies, of His sufferings were fulfilled, the work given Him by the Father had been perfectly done, a sure foundation had been laid on which a righteous God could pardon the vilest transgressor of the law who threw down the weapons of his warfare against Him. Christ had now performed all that was necessary in order for the Holy Spirit to come and work in the hearts of His people; convincing them of their rebellion, slaying their enmity against God, and producing in them a loving and obedient heart.O, dear reader, make no mistake on this point. The "finished work of Christ" avails you nothing if your heart has never been broken through an agonizing consciousness of your sinfulness. The "finished work of Christ" avails you nothing unless you have been saved from the power and pollution of sin (Matthew 1:21). It avails you nothing if you still love the world (I John 2:15). It avails you nothing unless you are a "new creature" in Him (2 Cor .5:17). If you value your soul, search the Scriptures to see for yourself; take no man’s word for it.

IN LUKE CH 17 JESUS GIVES THE HIGH STANDARD OF 1. CAUSE NO SIN 2. FORGIVE SIN EVEN WHEN IT IS AGAINST YOU AND HAS HURT YOU DEEPLY. 3.CONFRONT SIN EVEN TO YOU'RE OWN HARM. BROTHER THIS STANDARD CAN NOT BE MET PERFECTLY BY ANYONE!!! THE ANNABABTIST SAID TO JOHN BUNYAN IF YOU KEEP REASSURING PEOPLE THAT GOD WILL LOVE THEM NOMATTER WHAT THEY DO , THEY WILL DO WHAT EVER THEY WANT. JOHN BUNYANS REPLY WAS THIS NO IF YOU KEEP REASURING GODS PEOPLE OF GODS LOVE THEY WILL DO WHAT EVER HE WANTS.

Bunyan also had an extremely high standard of what he considered "saved"In The Strait Gate he wrote:(2.) But there is the sin of professors; or take it rather thus, there is a profession that will stand with an unsanctified heart and life. The sin of such will overpoise the salvation of their souls, the sin end being the heaviest end of the scale; I say, that being the heaviest end which hath sin in it, they tilt over, and so are, notwithstanding their glorious profession, drowned in perdition and destruction; for none such hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God; therefore 'let no man deceive you with vain words; for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience'; neither will a profession be able to excuse them. (Eph 5:3-6) The gate will be too strait for such as these to enter in thereat. A man may partake of salvation in part, but not of salvation in whole. God saved the children of Israel out of Egypt, but overthrew them in the wilderness:--'I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.' (Jude 5) So we see that, notwithstanding their beginning, 'they could not enter in, because of unbelief.' (Heb 3:19) I'd track down some of the more to-the-point quotes, but not feeling like digging through Bunyan at near to 5 in the morning.Anyway, I do not think you will find much comfort in the Puritans, if the comfort you seek is such that a sinner could feel safe in it (not that I'm saying you're looking for that, but many do).

true there are those (i'am not one) who say one thing with there lips and then do what ever they want .however my hope is for us to find the balance. that is to say that the christian who has a clear understanding of his own unworthiness and propensity(spelling?) for sin comes to god in confession and repentance every time he does sin .not so he may gain his favor or his position again but that thru the fresh understanding of his mercy and grace applied to his sorry attempts at obediance he is overwhelmed with gratitude and joy which is the true power unto obediance. the point is that the true christian tries to live up to the level of understanding that he has been given.this understanding of the gospel is the antedote for the long churched people who have given up trying because of past failures . again this is not all but i hope it may shed some more light on where i am coming from

Keith wrote in response:Those particular ones, I'll grant, seem (to me) to be utter strangers to regeneration. Many, perhaps most, of those who "backslide" never slid forward in the first place (the numbers are particularly staggering nowadays); however, this passage does not exclude the possibility of someone becoming truly regenerate and then falling away, as is implied in:In addition, I believe Jesus is teaching this. That there will be many who were believers, yet how did they stumble? Jesus tells us where they failed. Matthew 7:23, "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Jesus clearly teaches that we have a choice to obey Him or to reject Him. Paul teaches in like manner, Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." You see these are brothers because they have the Holy Spirit. Paul clearly teaches that just because we have the Spirit, there still remains the idea of faith. Do we continue to have faith in our flesh or do we choose to faithfully follow the Spirit. Look closely, it is our responsiblily to say Yes Lord. The Spirit will then show us how to die to our carnal ways. For those who Jesus says, "depart from Me I never knew you," these believers chose not to obey Jesus. You see the Holy Spirit will introduce you to our Savior. We receive Him through faithfully following the Voice. In terms of 1 John, many are quick to quote 5:13, yet look to what precedes this verse. "And these things we write to you that your joy may be full" 1 John 1:4"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin..." 1 John 2:1"These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you." 1 John 2:26You see John is writing to give the brothers and sisters an evaluation sheet so to speak. Basically he is saying, if you haven't experienced these things, you are not following the Holy Spirit. "But the anointing which you ;have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you, but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him." 1 John 2:27. Jesus, Paul, and John are teaching the same principle. The Holy Spirit is freely given. This is the grace of God. Yet, faith must be mixed with what you hear or it will do you no good. In ChristJeff

RPG wrote:OUR SALVATION HAS NEVER BEEN BASED ON WHAT WE DO (UNITED IN HIS DEATH)ALSO OUR SANCTIFACATION HAS NEVER BEEN BASED ON OUR WORKS EITHER(UNITIED IN HIS LIFE ) OUR TRUST HAS TO BE IN THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS CHRIST, THE GOOD NEWS IS JUST THAT. GOOD NEWS!!!! II believe Jesus has given us the good news contained in Matthew 5:3-12. "Blessed are the poor in spirit...Blessed are those who mourn...Blessed are the meek...Blessed are those who hungerand thirst for righteousness...Blessed are the merciful...Blessed are the pure in heart...Blessed are the peacemakers...Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake...Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you...Rejoice and be exeedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the profits who were before you." I believe those who follow the Holy Spirit will experience these precepts in their lives. They will be led to the cross, and they will know Him who abides in him. Jesus says these will know the bliss of taking on His Life. This is truly the good news. In ChristJeff

JEFF I AGREE WITH YOU BUT REMEMBER THAT THE REASON WE HAVE TO TAKE ON HIS(CHRISTS)LIFE IS OURS EVEN AT OUR BEST COULD NEVER RISE TO THE STANDARD IN LUKE 17IN CHRISTRPG

You brought up that standard before, and it's worth taking a look:IN LUKE CH 17 JESUS GIVES THE HIGH STANDARD OF 1. CAUSE NO SIN 2. FORGIVE SIN EVEN WHEN IT IS AGAINST YOU AND HAS HURT YOU DEEPLY. 3.CONFRONT SIN EVEN TO YOU'RE OWN HARM. BROTHER THIS STANDARD CAN NOT BE MET PERFECTLY BY ANYONE!!!Luke 171 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him." I've bolded the parts I think correspond to the three points you brought up.1) It is wrong to cause someone else to stumble (the text seems particularly concerned with children, but it's no great stretch to apply it to everyone, particularly in light of Paul's commands in Romans 14).2) If our brother sins, we are to rebuke him. It says nothing about rebuking unbelievers, and other passages (notably 1 Corinthians 5:10-12) lead me to think we aren't as obligated to confront those outside the church, though I think we are to take a public stand against evil if necessary (in the case that the country is doing something insane like marrying homosexuals or killing babies).3) If our brother who has sinned repents, we are to forgive him. It doesn't say we're obligated in the case he does not repent, though I would say we're still obligated to do so (no particular passage comes to mind, the Matthew 18 one doesn't seem quite to the point). Nor does it say we're required to forgive non-Christians, but I would think it's obvious that we have to do that too.4) Thou shalt not leave thy caps lock key on... whoops, wrong passage :)Anyway, what's so hard about this standard? Impossible for the unregenerate or any human on his/her own, of course, but if we have God on our side? Can we not obey Him by His grace? (Matthew 19:26, 1 Corinthians 10:13, 2 Peter 1:4)The hardest part would seem to be the "cause no one to stumble," I suppose it depends on what that means. To me it seems it would have to be some act intended to directly or indirectly tempt someone to sin, or gross negligence leading to such. Perhaps you could give some examples of what forms of this kind of transgression you think we cannot avoid.Rebuking sin requires a good deal of courage in some cases, but again I don't see why it's impossible to do. In fact, I have to take care not to rebuke as readily as I otherwise would, because of a number of considerations including the desire to avoid causing others to stumble.Forgiving, frankly, doesn't seem hard at all. Granted, I've not been greatly wronged (not that I can remember, anyhow), but occaisionally (particularly when preaching/witnessing) people do some pretty rotten things to me. Generally I don't even get angry to begin with, forgiveness comes naturally (not because of something special about me, but rather Christ Who lives in me). I can't imagine anything that would actually provoke me to be vengeful or to hold a grudge. This is solely God's credit, of course, I still say with Augustine "there but for the grace of God goeth I." Nonetheless, I insist it is possible that "by the grace of God goeth I not there."Regardless, this isn't really to the point of the OSAS discussion anyway: I'm not saying (if I recall correctly) that the regenerate can die spiritually if they fail to rebuke a few sins committed by others, or if they accidentally (by slip of the tongue, unintentional slight, etc) cause someone else to stumble. I'm saying that the regnerate can die spiritually if they murder (1 John 3:15), accept circumcision in an attempt to be justified by works of the law (Galatians 5:2-4), deny Christ (Matthew 10:33), sow to please the sinful nature (Galatians 6:8), refuse to forgive a brother (Matthew 18:21-35) or fall into one of the "list" sins:Galatians 519 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.(see also 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8, Ephesians 5:5-7, etc)Now, my beliefs regarding Holiness would lead me to contend about the "impossiblity" of the standard in Luke 17, but it's not really to the point of whether or not someone who is regenerated by the Holy Spirit (i.e. "saved") can later totally or finally fall (i.e. "go to hell").

Lets see ,as to not being relative to the first ? The high standard in luke 17 is key. Jesus says after you have done all these things that you were told to do ,CONSIDER YOURSELVES UNWORTHY SERVANTS( its not enough to have a seat at my table/ rights of the family). so its clear that our position in christ is not based upon how well we OBEY . this is a hard concept for us to grasp because we all fear someone miss understanding us and then doing whatever they want. if you have a PERSON WHO CLAIMS TO BE A christian and dosen't care if he sins than that person is UNREGENERATE i:e: not a christian. If you care then you are a christian because GOD has done the work of regeneration . Where we need to help the new or old christian is in the understanding of holiness thru grace .the power of change and obedience for the believer . the joy of the lord is our strength , this joy comes the same way it came to the samaritan leper . After he was cleansed he came back in joyful thanksgiving . when we relize how much we have been forgiven than we will obey OUT OF JOY not out of fear or gain or anything else. now as to the standard not being that hard the disciples reaction was give us more faith . they new it was impossibl to do on thier own and they had the lord with them on a daily basis.it is so easy to cause others to sin .wether it is the sin of unbelief (when they see us do well and think that they will never catch up. or pride when they think that they can. the ability of the human soul to sin is so great that johnathan edwards said we only need our own weight to send us careening down the slippery slope. lastly i think that this disscution is very helpful in these times of watered down gospel truth. in himrpg

ive heard it said "you cant lose your salvation but you can walk away from it" why should a person who does the easy half truth lite gospel chosse to live a holy life when people are told all you hae to do is say a prayer, a lot are just the same as sinners i cant see God sending a non christian to hell if some1 who professes to be christian is doing the same thing?i do agree though the bible says to work out your salvation with fear & trembling also to see if your in the faith,i also agree that the Holyspirit with testify to ur heart that you are a child of God

Lets see ,as to not being relative to the first ?It's not really to the point of the objections to OSAS that I raised, no. (Again, these include the necessity of forgiveness in Matthew 18, the possibility of being "severed from Christ" for seeking justification by works of the law in Galatians 5:2-4, the possibility of erring from the way into sin and after a time experiencing spiritual death as implied [I believe] in James 5:19-20 [KJV or NASB], or being one of the kinds of sinners listed in passages like Galatians 5:19-21 or Revelation 21:8).The high standard in luke 17 is key. Jesus says after you have done all these things that you were told to do ,CONSIDER YOURSELVES UNWORTHY SERVANTSQuite so, even if we obey perfectly every second of every day, we don't deserve the slightest drop of favor from God. Every bit of favor He shows us is undeserved favor, that is: grace. I'd also add that even this worthless obedience (by worthless I mean merit-less) is only possible by the grace of God; as Augustine said of gross sinners "there but for the grace of God goeth I," but I would add "by the grace of God goeth I not there."so its clear that our position in christ is not based upon how well we OBEYOf course it isn't based on performance. However, this is a general principle (and not exactly in Scriptural terms) which is somewhat vague (are we talking about physical or moral failure to obey?), and cannot be properly used to justify ignoring certain very specific passages of Scripture that tell us that it is possible for believers to fall in certain ways (see above, y'all are probably getting tired of seeing that list).this is a hard concept for us to grasp because we all fear someone miss understanding us and then doing whatever they want.Frankly, if the Bible taught you can repent, put your faith in Christ as the sacrifice for all your sins (past, present and future as some put it, though I believe it is erroneous to say we're forgiven for future sins because of Matthew 18 and similar passages, and because it sounds just plain silly that a judge would say to the criminal "ok, you seem genuinely pentinent and your fine has been paid, you're free to go; and by the way, you can break all the laws you want now, we won't haul you in here again"), you can go and do whatever you want and there's no danger of you possibly not dying spiritually, I wouldn't really mind. I used to believe like that, actually. If the Bible (taken together, in context) says it, I believe it, or at least I ought to. However, taking an honest approach to the Scriptures doesn't allow me to make such a conclusion that the regenerate cannot under any circumstances spiritually die.if you have a PERSON WHO CLAIMS TO BE A christian and dosen't care if he sins than that person is UNREGENERATE i:e: not a christian.I'm inclined to agree ("whosoever sinneth hath neither seen nor known Him"), the issue between us wouldn't be whether someone living as such is regenerate at-the-time, it's whether or not they ever were. Interestingly, it's been proposed in some Calvinist circles that the non-elect can "taste of" regeneration or perhaps even become regenerate, but will later spiritually die (and become non-regenerate, or rather in need of regeneration) and still wind up in hell.If you care then you are a christian because GOD has done the work of regeneration .I've heard a lot (and agree in part) the idea that "if you care" (feel conviction, have a desire to change, etc) and don't entirely quash your conscience that it proves you are regenerate. This may be true, and some Scripture comes to mind, but I'd like to see what passages people think justifies this thinking. This does not necessarily conflict with what I've been saying, though; as I believe God almost always gives time for repentance (as He did with Jezebel, Revelation 2:21), and that we do not immediately spiritually die (except in the possible case of murder, 1 John 3:15), and that while we remain regenerate in that grace period our conscience still smites us with its usual fervor. Eventually, though, the conscience is "seared as with a hot iron" (1 Timothy 4:2), before or possibly at the same time as the spiritual death when the sin has become "full grown" (James 1:14-15).Where we need to help the new or old christian is in the understanding of holiness thru graceAmen, we all need to know about that, so many think that even as Christians they're slaves to sin such that they will sin every day in word, thought, and deed (some justify this with a very broad definition of sin including things like fidgeting or lack of a constant high emotional state of emotional love toward God, but many mean sins of the sort that show up in those "list" passages).when we relize how much we have been forgiven than we will obey OUT OF JOY not out of fear or gain or anything else. I agree, we should obey simply because God deserves it, regardless of what consequences it involves. One thing I hope people don't misunderstand: Ultimately I don't teach conditional security as an incentive/threat for Christians to continue walking in holiness, because I think only unbelievers should be motivated by "I don't want to go to hell," and that true believers should be gladly eager to obey even if (and this is purely hypothetical, simply for emphasis' sake) there was absolutely no chance of them going to heaven... or, for that matter, if there was absolutely no chance of them going to hell.I believe and teach conditional security because I believe the Bible teaches it.now as to the standard not being that hard the disciples reaction was give us more faith . they new it was impossibl to do on thier own and they had the lord with them on a daily basis.They had the Lord with them on a daily basis in an exterior capacity. We have the Holy Spirit with us every moment in an interior sense. I wonder what y'all think of this, but I believe very firmly that the disciples were very different pre- and post-pentecost, because of the fullness of the Holy Spirit they had afterward, and were far more capable (by God's grace) of obedience afterward.the ability of the human soul to sin is so great that johnathan edwards said we only need our own weight to send us careening down the slippery slope.I agree, if it weren't for God's grace at every moment, we would fall into sin (paraphrase of Augustine). Please read Jonathan Edward's piece "The Way of Holiness," it was an eye-opener to me regarding the Reformed position (well, Edward's position, at least) on Holiness. I really need to go, sorry...God's grace be with you, in Christ Jesus our Lord,-Keith

Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------now as to the standard not being that hard the disciples reaction was give us more faith . they new it was impossibl to do on thier own and they had the lord with them on a daily basis.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------They had the Lord with them on a daily basis in an exterior capacity. We have the Holy Spirit with us every moment in an interior sense. I wonder what y'all think of this, but I believe very firmly that the disciples were very different pre- and post-pentecost, because of the fullness of the Holy Spirit they had afterward, and were far more capable (by God's grace) of obedience afterward.great post but i would add the fact that 15 or so yaers after pentacost peter sided with his judeiser(spelling???)brothers referanced by paul in gal 2 so causing a buntch of poeple to sin in unbelief by going back to the law

great post but i would add the fact that 15 or so yaers after pentacost peter sided with his judeiser(spelling???)brothers referanced by paul in gal 2 so causing a buntch of poeple to sin in unbelief by going back to the lawI think with Peter, one of his biggest problems is that he never left Jerusalem. That was the hotbet of so called messianic Jews(I have no other name). They were all coming out of the law, but the line becomes quite fuzzy if the truth you hold to in your head is not embedded in your heart. Peter was a fisherman, so devoutely following traditions probably wasn't at the top of his list. Paul on the other had wasn't a legalist of note. So he was deffinitley trying to attain righteousness through the law. He travelled around the med converting the gentiles and trying to keep them free in this grace from God. So he was acutely aware of all the implications of not eating certain foods etc,etc in the comopany of the gentiles. Interesting thought, but did Peter, James or John contribute significant portions of explaining the law, now that Jesus had arrived? They talk allot about interpersonal relationships and the nature of Christ, but not much about how Jesus realtes now throug the law. Maybe thats why Paul wrote most of it because he understood the full implications, of what Jesus had done.So maybe what you get saved out of needs to have its balance in what you get saved into. So if you were licenscious B.C. then a proper understanding of the law would go down well, and visa versa.(Not the right words, if you were legalistic before, a good dose understanding grace would do well)Zeke

i would add the fact that 15 or so yaers after pentacost peter sided with his judeiser(spelling???)It's Judaizer, I think. And yes, that passage proves (to me, the possible arguments otherwise seem strained) that post-pentecost believers, even the Apostles, could and did sin. But if someone only sins once in 15 years, and repents when rebuked for it, I'm not really going to get on their case :) I'm not saying the regenerate are not capable of sin, I'm saying we can "not sin," waking up each day not expecting to sin and actually (solely by the grace of God, that none may boast) not sin.But again, my arguments for conditional security aren't to the tune of "one sin of any kind negates your salvation," I'm sticking to specific Biblical examples of circumstances in which a believer can be "severed from Christ" (Galatians 5:2-4 NASB) and such. Now, I would contend that any unrepented-of wilfull rebellion would eventually lead to spiritual death, but before I really get into arguing that I think it's important to establish that the believer's security is clearly conditional according to the Bible in at least in certain (possibly rare, possibly not) circumstances. Again: forgiveness required to be forgiven (Matthew 18), don't seek justification by obedience to the Mosaic Law (Galatians 5:2-4), don't murder (1 John 3:15), don't be on the "lists" (Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10), etc.brothers referanced by paul in gal 2 so causing a buntch of poeple to sin in unbelief by going back to the lawThis is in the same class as Peter's sin in seperating from the Gentiles, I believe: it proves post-pentecost believers could and did sin, but it doesn't prove they (or we) are incapable of obedience (by the grace of God).

Sometimes what you haven't said speaks louder than what you have said. Strange, isn't it?

I aggree . I think that we hold most of the same positions and are mostly trying to battle all of the vague theology that is so prevalant today. i have enjoyed these dicussions very much and have been challanged by them to be more clear in my thinking. After all is said and doneI wish to give the glory to GOD because without him I am nothing. He is everything to me now my the lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and my he give you peacein him the only rison son of GOD rod page

I aggree . I think that we hold most of the same positions and are mostly trying to battle all of the vague theology that is so prevalant today.When it comes down to it, I think we're on the same side: "without holiness no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14). Edwards, Spurgeon, and Pink (all dyed-in-the-wool Calvinists, though Edwards was somewhat his own man theologically) agreed and that. Further, ideally a true believer's belief of whether or not he/she is unconditionally/conditionally secure should have absolutely no effect on how serious they are about obeying God. Regrettably, many feel more motivated when the posibility of hell is still there (though even many Calvinists/Puritans feel that possibility for themselves, because they don't believe in absolute assurance of final salvation in this life, even though they do believe in the perseverance of the saints), and I admit it probably does add somewhat to my motivation.The issue for me is refuting antinominanism (as taught, though not necessarily by that name, by men like Charles Ryrie, Charles Stanley, Bob George, Zane Hodges, etc), and in general standing up for what I believe the Bible teaches. Many allow their emotions, preferences, existing theology, and denominational ties to influence their interpretations of Scripture, to the point that they don't let the Bible mean what it's plainly saying; this is not acceptable, what we get from the Bible must be the source of and guiding force of our emotions, preferences, theology, and such, not the other way around. I believe conditional/unconditional security is one issue where people let non-Biblical influences determine their position and they won't let even the Word of God stand in their way (this is often unintentional, of course).I'd still like to see someone present reasonable interpretations (preferably ones they actually believe) that explain how Galatians 5:2-4, James 5:19-20, Revelation 21:8, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Matthew 18, etc, do not teach at least the real possibility of a truly regenerate person spiritually dying (or not inheriting the kingdom of God, or being severed from Christ, or being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, whichever Biblical phrase one prefers).I should get going. Thank you for the discussion, RPG (and Zeke and the others), though I feel we didn't really get down to the core of the issue (the Scriptures), I'm glad we can discuss issues like this (which are usually surrounded by ill-will and enmity) in Christian love. And thank you, RPG, for turning caps lock off :)God's grace be with you all, in Christ Jesus our Lord.-Keith

Brother Keith wrote: Many allow their emotions, preferences, existing theology, and denominational ties to influence their interpretations of Scripture, to the point that they don't let the Bible mean what it's plainly saying; this is not acceptable, what we get from the Bible must be the source of and guiding force of our emotions, preferences, theology, and such, not the other way around.This thought prevails over the lives of men. Jesus warned the leaders of His day, (paraphrase), You seek the honor of men an you don't seek me. You love the traditions of men, and by your traditions you deny Me. There is freedom in believing every word of Scripture. You no longer have to be a lawyer who has to fight for his position. You are no longer in bondage to the fight. There is peace where there is belief.And once a believer realizes this, he is then called to cast down the arguements within the philosophies and traditions of men.In ChristJeff