Christianity: A Set of Rules??

I was asked this on a different board and I thought it would be good to discuss here:

Do you agree that Christianity is not a set of rules, DO do's or Don't do's right?

Christianity in not just a set of rules of do's and dont's. But you also must acknowledge that Christianity has rules of "do's and don't". Christianity is not lawlessness. Christianity does has a law, the law of love.

Christianity is not just a set of rules, but within Christianity God has given us rules, because God cares about right and wrong, because God cares about His creation.

Though God knows what is good for us, and tells us what to do (live righteous) and what not to do (sin). Sin is harmful to God's creation, so He outlaws it, and punishes all of it.

But yes, Christianity is not just a set of rules of do's and dont's. God certainly gives us do's and dont's because God cares about right and wrong. But Christianity is a [b]love relationship[/b] with Jesus Christ.

Christianity, and even the law, are summed up in one word - [b]love[/b]! If we love God, we won't sin against Him. If we love our neighbor, we won't sin against our neighbor. Jesus said, "if you love me, keep my commandments." And John said, "this is how we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."

It's all about love. When we love God and love our neighbor, that is true Christianity, and that fullfills the law.

And that was God's intention in creation to begin with. God wanted a universe of beings who were all voluntarily loving Him and voluntarily loving each other. But sin entered the world when man choose to be selfish. But Jesus came to restore God's fallen creation, to get back to God's original purpose and intention, which was to have a universe of beings who all voluntarily choose to love Him and love each other.

Our focus needs to be loving God and neighbor. Our focus, or primary aim, is not merely to keep the law, but our focus, our emphasis, needs to be to love God and love our neighbor. And thereby we do keep the law - the law of love.

I think if someone is maintaining a close relationship with the Savior, and the fruits of the Spirit (this is different from the gifts!) are being lived out in their life... then there is no need for a list of rules because you'll already be doing what pleases God. Thats where freedom is!

There is a difference between trying to live by a set of rules, and just doing it naturally. One way you're focussed on the list, and the other your focussed on God.

Krispy

Christianity is all about Jesus, the Jesus who saves us from all sin!! Jesus didn't save us to be lawless! [b]Lawlessness is not Christianity![/b]

Jesus took us from darkness to light, from disobedience to obedience, from being children of the devil to children of God, from being lawless to lawful, from loving sin to loving God and neighbor, etc.

Here is a chart that lists a lot of the characteristics of the unconverted in contrast to the characteristics of the converted:

http://www.openairoutreach.com/gallery/adobe/ConversionCharacteristics3?full=1

This was from a different board, on this same topic, I thought I'd share here:

------------------------------

I am not aware of "rules" that all Christians must follow.

Joh 14:15 - If ye love me, [b]keep my commandments[/b].

Joh 15:10 - If ye [b]keep my commandments[/b], ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, [b]if we keep his commandments. [/b]

1Jo 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and [b]keepeth not his commandments[/b], is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:22 - And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because [b]we keep his commandments[/b], and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:24 - And he that [b]keepeth his commandments[/b] dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 5:2 - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we [b]love God, and keep his commandments[/b].

1Jo 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we [b]keep his commandments[/b]: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6 - And this is love, that we [b]walk after his commandments[/b]. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it

Without spending to much time or effort can you define what you mean by rules and give some examples with reference to supporting scriptures? Please don't put a lot of effort into it though. I don't want to debate you, I'm just interested in conversing with you about the subject.

The law that Christians are under obligation to obey is the "Law of Love". Obviously, love excludes lying, stealing, adultery, murder, rape, incest, etc. Christians are to conduct themselves lawfully. Christianity is not lawlessness! God still cares about right and wrong, God doesn't want us going around hurting each other (sin) but rather helping each other (love).

[b]Love is law, and this excludes hurting each other (sinning against each other).[/b]

[u]And this is not optional:[/u]

Mt 19:19 - Thou shalt love

Mt 22:37 - Thou shalt love

Mt 22:39 - Thou shalt love

Mr 12:30 - thou shalt love

Mr 12:31 - Thou shalt love

Lu 10:27 - Thou shalt love

Ro 13:9 - Thou shalt love

Ga 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; [b]Thou shalt love[/b] thy neighbour as thyself.

Jas 2:8 - If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, [b]Thou shalt love[/b] thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Wouldn't a good example of a "rule" that Christians are supposed to follow be something like, "love your neighbor" and "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength"?

Amen brother!

Beyond that, isn't safe to say that things like "Do not murder" still apply to Christians?

Sin is still wrong, good is still right! Christians are not to go around sinning against people, living selfishly, hurting one another. We are supposed to love God and love neighbor, and thereby we fullfill all of the law by loving. Love excludes lying, stealing, adultery, murder, rape, incest, and all other forms of selfishness (sinfulness).

there are rules that Christians are expected to abide by.

Amen brother! This should be obvious!

If this is not true, then antinomianism is true and lawlessness reigns!

God's ideal never was, nor is, a lawless world with everone sinning against each other, hurting one another! That is not God nor God's will!

God wants us to obey Him from the heart. And we can trust that His commands are good and right. A good parent only tells a child to do what is good, and forbids what is bad. A parent tells a child to do what is good and forbids what is harmful.

Likewise with God, we can trust that what He commands is good and should always be chosen, and what He forbids is evil and harmful and should never be chosen.

Lazarus... just in case you missed my point, I dont think anyone here would promote lawlessness. We are to obey Jesus' commandments... and if we truly are saved and truly love Him, we will obey His commands automatically. This will happen without having to post a list of rules on the wall of the church.

Krispy

Lazarus... just in case you missed my point, I dont think anyone here would promote lawlessness. We are to obey Jesus' commandments... and if we truly are saved and truly love Him, we will obey His commands automatically.

Amen! I totally agree. Love = obedience because love is obedience.

This will happen without having to post a list of rules on the wall of the church.

Sometimes Christians need to be encouraged and affirmed, which is why I think the Apostle wrote 1John.

We could say, "Well John, I already know this and I'm already doing that. I'm a Christian. You don't need to tell me this, you didn't need to write this Epistle and I didn't need to read it." But then again, even the obedient need encouragement and affirmation in their obedience.

But the point is not weather or not we should put the Ten Commandments on our Church walls, or weather or not Christians need to read 1John, the whole point is that Christianity does have laws - the two great commandments, also known as The Law of Love. And though Christians, who are born again and have a new heart, automaticly walk in love for God and neighbor, Peter and John still nevertheless wrote Epistles reminding, encouraging, and affirming the Church in this love.

The original point was that Christianity does not [i]merely consist[/i] in "do this and don't do that" but that Christianity nevertheless still has "do's and don't do's"; that God still cares about right and wrong and Christianity is not a religion of lawlessness.

Some jump out of the oven of [b]legalism[/b] and fall into the frying pan of [b]lawlessness[/b]. One if mere [i]outward obedience[/i], the other is [i]total disobedience[/i]. But what God wants and requires of us is [i]heart-obedience[/i].

I agree that the word "law" and "commandments" have a ring to it, a very negative one. I think some people hate the word "law" more then they hate the word "hell-fire".

Yet the scriptures do speak of the Law of Love and the Commandments of Christ, and also obviously of "hell-fire".

But I totally agree that anyone who see's Christianity as [i]merely[/i] consisting in doing right and avoiding wrong is totally missing the very essense of Christianity - a love relationship with Jesus Christ.

But likewise, anyone who does not see Christianity as having anything to do with avoiding wrong and doing right is also missing the core of Christianity - loving God and loving neighbor.

But I totally agree that anyone who see's Christianity as merely consisting in doing right and avoiding wrong is totally missing the very essense of Christianity - a love relationship with Jesus Christ.

But the foundation of that relationship is not my love for Him, but His love for me. We must remember that love is still law. My love for Jesus can neither save me, nor keep me in relationship with Him. He is the faithful bridegroom that will never leave me nor forsake me.

I think some people hate the word "law" more then they hate the word "hell-fire"

Funny thing is, Paul really hated the improper use of the law also.

I do not think you understand why we rail so much against the law, as it pertains to being in right relationship with God. As Paul asked,

Do you not hear the law?

Yes, I do, here is what it says...

You do not love God with all you heart, soul, mind and strength, and you do not love your neighbor as yourself...
You are an idolater, you are a blasphemer, you are a Sabboth breaker, you dishonor you father and mother, you are a murderer, you are a thief, you are a liar, you are an adulterer, and you will always be thus in my sight because I require perfect obedience and I offer no mercy. You are judged and condemned and you will suffer the wrath of God for eternity. You have no hope!

So I run to Jesus (like the city of refuge)...who is my righteousness, apart from the law. This does not lead to lawlessness because He has promised to fufill the righteousness of the law in my life...which is to love Him with all that I am, and to love my neighbor as myself.

Yes, we have been saved unto obedience, but that obedience neither saves me nor keeps me in right relationship with God.

I love (obey) Him, because He first Loved me.

Yes, we have been saved unto obedience, but that obedience neither saves me nor keeps me in right relationship with God.

I am not a hyper-calvinist, and in the interest of honesty, there is a human work that we take part in with obediance. WE are to bring forth fruit worthy of repentance.

Notice what Paul writes smack dab in the middle of his rebuke to the Galatians for being yoked again under the law.

Galatians 5:
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why did he warn them that their behavior would cause them not to inherit the kingdom. Why didn't he give them some theological treatise on how they were saved by grace despite of there lack of obediance... because it "neither saves them or keeps them in right relationship with God"

In Christ - Jim

I am not a hyper-Calvinist, nor am I a Calvinist, nor am I an Armenian, etc. I really do not like tags...and in saying that we are not kept by our obedience, I am not saying that we do not have a part to play. In just saying that we obey God, I am saying we are "doing" something.

But our obedience is imperfect (and anyone who says otherwise is simply not being honest) therefore, our obedience is not the sustaining factor in this relationship. It is His faithfulness, and mercy.

Why did he warn them that their behavior would cause them not to inherit the kingdom? Why didn't he give them some theological treatise on how they were saved by grace despite of there lack of obedience... because it "neither saves them or keeps them in right relationship with God"

First of all that is not what I said, and actually Paul does give a "theological treatise" back in Romans about how a man is saved and kept apart from his obedience to the law.

This issue in Galatians is one of righteousness. Real honest to goodness day to day righteousness. How is the righteousness of the law made real in my life? Paul does not say it is by do's and don'ts. He says it is by faith, and he actually says it is something that we have to wait for. It is something we hope for and yearn for. Everything God has for us is given to us by a promise. Even righteousness. And we usually have to go through suffering to obtain it. (Romans 5)

5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And what does he say after that about those who are Christ's...those who are in Christ? Christians?

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Just as he says in Romans, Colossians, and in the beginning of Galatians...

We have been buried with him in baptism. We died with Him. We are dead, and our life is now hid with Christ in God. We have been crucified, our flesh is crucified. A Christian cannot live in the flesh, we are a new creation.

Now that's either true or its not.

They that do not have the Spirit of Christ, live in the flesh. There is no lusting of the Spirit against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit because they are not in Christ and Christ is not in them. But if Christ be in you than you are a new creation.

13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

I have no problem being exhorted to love the brethren, and being taught how now to use my liberty. That is what Paul is doing here.

Mahoney - thanks for the clarification on what you were saying. I agree, (as I hope all believers do) that we are kept by Gods faithfulness.. with a pracitcal working out of our faith in obediance.

be blessed - Jim

Jesse said: I agree that the word "law" and "commandments" have a ring to it, a very negative one. I think some people hate the word "law" more then they hate the word "hell-fire".

Yet the scriptures do speak of the Law of Love and the Commandments of Christ, and also obviously of "hell-fire".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh said: The reason would be because if we are to have bible theology, we should strive to use Bible words and phrases when we can. Where in the Bible do you find the language of "the law of this" or the "law of that?" If you're not careful you may end up importing a completely new idea into the scriptures. In other words, rather than deriving your doctrine from the Bible, you would be importing doctrine into the Bible. I'm just saying that is a possibility, if you don't guard yourself.

Josh, what are you talking about? I must be mistaken as to what you are saying, because it sounds like your saying it is unbiblical to talk about the commandments of Christ and to talk about the law of love, as if speaking like that is against "biblical theology". Surely that is not what you mean.

Surely you are not advocating that Christianity has no laws, and that lawlessness is Christianity??

Becareful not to import the doctrine of antinomianism and lawlessness into the bible! Because lawlessness cannot be found there and it does not belong there!

The bible explicitly talks about the commandments of Christ and explicitly talks about the law of love.

I am not importing a new idea of Christ having commandments, and love fullfilling the law, into the bible! I can't add to the bible what is already there!!

Surely you did not mean the "bible theology" says nothing about the commandments of Christ, and nothing about the law of love. Surely you did not mean that the bible never talks about Christ having commandments, and love fullfilling the law??

Don't you see how a biblical term would deffinately be talking about Christ's commandments, and how one who talks about the law of love teachings the explicit teachings of Holy Scripture??

[b]THE COMMANDMENTS OF CHRIST[/b]

Joh 14:15 - If ye love me, [b]keep my commandments[/b].

Joh 15:10 - If ye [b]keep my commandments[/b], ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Rom 8:2-4 For the [b]law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus[/b] hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of [b]the law might be fulfilled in us[/b], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1Jo 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, [b]if we keep his commandments. [/b]

1Jo 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and [b]keepeth not his commandments[/b], is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:22 - And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because [b]we keep his commandments[/b], and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:24 - And he that [b]keepeth his commandments[/b] dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 5:2 - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we [b]love God, and keep his commandments[/b].

1Jo 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we [b]keep his commandments[/b]: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6 - And this is love, that we [b]walk after his commandments[/b]. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it

[b]THE LAW OF LOVE[/b]

Mt 19:19 - Thou shalt love

Mt 22:37 - Thou shalt love

Mt 22:39 - Thou shalt love

Mr 12:30 - thou shalt love

Mr 12:31 - Thou shalt love

Lu 10:27 - Thou shalt love

Ro 13:9 - Thou shalt love

Rom 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to [b]love[/b] one another: for he that [b]loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[/b]

Ga 5:14 - For all the [b]law[/b] is fulfilled in one word, even in this; [b]Thou shalt love[/b] thy neighbour as thyself.

Jas 2:8 - If ye fulfil the royal [b]law[/b] according to the scripture, [b]Thou shalt love[/b] thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have [b]purified your souls in obeying the truth[/b] through the Spirit unto unfeigned [b]love of the brethren[/b], see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

What would this be?

Those scriptures are nothing short of the law of love brother!

"What is the difference between the 'laws' in the OT and the 'laws' in the NT?"

My understanding is that rather than it being "rules" that are pressed upon from the outside, it is a new nature that springs "rules" from the inside (new heart).

Here is a great article by Asa Mahan on the New Covenant. Basicly he says what you just said. What was [i]demanded[/i] under the Old Covenant - obedience to the law, is [i]promised[/i] under the New Covanant - law written upon the heart.

Finally, whatever the old covenant, or the moral law, requires of the creature, the new covenant, as shown in a former discourse, promises to the believer. The first covenant, for example, requires of the creature perfect and perpetual holiness. The new covenant promises to the believer perfect and perpetual holiness. I will first cite a few of the passages quoted in that discourse, to sustain the above declaration, and will then offer some general remarks to show that the construction there put upon them is correct. Jer. xxxii. 39, 40,—"And I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them and of their children after them; and I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn from them to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, and they shall not depart from me." Ezek. xxxvi. 25,—"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart, also, will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them." Deut. xxx. 6,—"And the Lord thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul." Jer. i. 20,—"In those days, and at that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none, and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found." I Thess. v. 23, 24,—"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." That Christ, as the Mediator of the new covenant, does, in these and kindred passages, promise to the believer all that the law requires of him, will appear perfectly evident from the following considerations:—

God never wanted mere outward obedience. God was never pleased with the Pharisees who obeyed the letter of the law, but they never meet the Spirit of the law, because their motive and intention was selfish rather then benevolent.

The Pharisees "appeared righteous outwardly" yet they were "inwardly full of iniquity". The bible says that God "requires truth in the inward parts" and Christ said that we must "first clean the inside of the cup". Mere outward obedience to the letter of the law is not what God really wants, God wants inward obedience to the Spirit of the law - for us to actually love God and love our neighbor and therefore we choose not to sin against them.

God has always wanted nothing short of heart-obedience, genuine love for God and neighbor from your heart, for all men to voluntarily commit their wills to protect and promote the highest well-being of all.

Anyways, here is a link to Asa Mahan on the New Covenant. It's a fantastic read:

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Mahan/ChrPerf.htm#N_4_

This is what he covers:

I. The nature of the new covenant, as distinguished from the first, or the old covenant.

II. The relation of these two covenants.

III. The object of Christ in the provisions of Divine grace.

IV. The conditions on which he will fulfil in us what he has promised as the Mediator of the new covenant.