Holiness Possible Today?

Is it not amazing how angry so many "Christians" become when holiness is preached? Many loudly proclaim that holiness in this life is impossible and that God surely could not expect that of us.
Why should it be so surprising that God would demand this of us? After all, did not His Son die on the cross to deliver us from sin? He not only paid the penalty, but also gave us the victory over the power of sin in this life.
Moreover, the Christ in us, who is the hope of glory, is our holy God. Moreover, it really isn't holiness we are seeking, but rather we are seeking to know the Holy One Himself. And as we develop in our love relationship with the Holy One, is it not reasonable to expect that we will become like the One we love?
Therefore, holiness truly is impossible for those who do not have a continuing love walk with Jesus because they are not being conformed to His image, but rather to the image of the world.
For us, however, who desire Jesus above all else, holiness is to be expected and is the norm.

Amen Brother.

For us, however, who desire Jesus above all else, holiness is to be expected and is the norm.

Amen, brother. Holiness is desiring Christ
within us, knowing Christ within us, the
hope of glory!! :-D

Indeed Marcos, the resistance to such teaching is almost militant, when you'd think that it would be good news!
The gospel is still as offensive as it was 2000 years ago.

i think holiness is not so much a possibility as it as a requirement, if your not holy your not going to heaven.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled. --Matthew 5:6

It may be said without qualification that every man is as holy and as full of the Spirit as he wants to be.
He may not be as full as he wishes he were, but he is most certainly as full as he wants to be. Our Lord placed this beyond dispute when He said, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after
righteousness: for they shall be filled." Hunger and thirst are physical sensations which, in their acute stages,may become real pain. It has been the experience of countless seekers after God that when their desires became a pain they were suddenly and wonderfully filled. The problem is not to persuade God to fill us, but to want God sufficiently to permit Him to do so. The average Christian is so cold and so contented with His wretched condition that there is no vacuum of desire into which the blessed Spirit can rush in satisfying
fullness.

Born After Midnight, 8.
"Lord, quiet my heart today and fill me with this holy longing. I don't want to be contented with my present
condition; I long for that vacuum of desire into which the Holy Spirit can rush. Amen."

A.W Tozer

Yes, holiness is possible for those who long for it. If it were not then I'd cry to God to let me die for if I can't be like my blessed Jesus then God would be terribly cruel to put such a burning desire in my heart. The one thing that has made me seek God with everything that I am and have is simply seeing how holy God can make a man. I've never met anyone like him before or since. May God make my life an example like that to others and may He make each one of us as holy as a saved sinner can possibly be.

yes, in a world where we all are hit by impure images and things from all around us

Ro 5:20 - Show Context
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

We all need prayer for purity, holiness is possible

Heb 12:14 - Show Context
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

We need holiness as we cannot see the Lord,

As has been said, our holiness is found in Christ. A reality that is present in God's promise and whose fullness will be seen when our Lord comes again.

However, in the present we are commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling trusting that God is at work within to will and act according to his purpose.(see Philippians 2:12-13) I know God is able to do His part within us, and thus for me to say that present holiness or perfection is not possible is like saying the gift of God's Spirit is not sufficient.

In recognizing His great ability, however, I am humbled by my lack of it. Without Him, I cannot do my part, and for that reason, I am a bit suspicious when one claims perfection. In my mind they claim a perfect relationship with the Father. I fear and tremble too much to suggest that for myself.

In Galatians 6, Paul advises the spiritual to restore gently to fellowship those who have sinned in the church, but he says this with a warning: "But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted." If he would warn these of the dangers of temptation, then certainly the "perfect" among us must also keep watch.

This may sound odd, but I thank God when He convicts me of sin. I want to be in right relationship with Him, and I know He reveals these things to me because He loves me. I repent and am saved from sin's destructive force in my life. I am so thankful for this work of the Spirit, because without His revelation I am blind to my faults (especially ones such as pride).

I believe perfection is possible. However, I also believe it is better left unsaid. The Spirit will likely prove us wrong anyway, and we will wonder why we had never seen it before.

Thank you for enduring my musings. I am no expert, but trust to one day know as I am fully known.

Truly we have been given all things as pertain to life and Godliness. We have been given exceedingly great and precious promises by which we might be partakers of the Divine Nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Truly death is not the Savior- Christ is the Savior. He shall save His people from their sins and again... Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the Sin (singular) of this world. Though all are born 'in' Adam and are by nature the children of wrath- yet when we sinned we could have chosen otherwise. We have noone to blame but ourselves. Paul knew what was right in his mind- but found another law working in him bringing him into captrivivty to the law of Sin that was in his members. With his mind he wanted to do right- but something in him was working against what he wanted and knew to do mentally. I believe even in his heart he desired to do right. But he saw another law working... bringing him into captivity...

I don't know if we have worked this out or not, but I have observed in life that there are short and long term desires that each of us have. If you ask a person if they want to go to heaven they will likely say yes- it is a long term desire. Yet, many give in to temptations to fulfill short term natural desires in a bad way (sin), that gives the impression that the person has NO concern for their soul or going to heaven. The short term desire- seems to be the one in which the heart focuses.

Many things bring our focus right into the moment. Anger is one of them. When a person is angry they cannot see past 2 minutes many times. They will say and do things they would never said or have done had they 'zoomed out' to examine the consequence of their actions. So when anger comes- sin is close at hand. Noone is forced to sin while angry. The moment and circumstance brings a particular vulnerability at that time that is not always there. This is how a person might act out of character.

In Psalm 51 David asked God to teach him wisdom in the inward parts. This is crucial I think. Do we have wisdom in the secret places of our hearts and lives? Does our wisdom extend to the deepest parts of our being and in the secret times of our lives? I think David was asking God to teach him a wisdom to handle the times when he is out on the roof walking and is tempted. I think he wanted God to teach him wisdom when he is tempted to [i]go out[/i] on the roof. This is wisdom in a crisis moment. Everyone is wise once the smoke clears. Hindsight is always 20/20. But who has wisdom in the heat of the battle? David believed God would teach Him this wisdom. Surely He will likewise teach it to us.

Baohongen,
I really appreciated your post. What it brought to my mind was the saying of Duncan Campbell "I don't believe you can get the place where it's impossible to sin but blessed be God I believe you can get to the place where it's possible not to."

Lazarus1719 said:
We must free ourselves from sin in this life.

Can you explain this? For some reason I thought Jesus was the one who saved from sin in this life.

Just want to insert this thought into this discussion for your consideration: the NT writings are addressed to the 'saints' not the sinners...something to think about when you consider yourself a 'sinner'...

EDIT: something to consider: what makes a person a saint? or a sinner?

ginnyrose

How many times did Paul lament the battle between his flesh and his spirit?

As far as I can remember right now, only once (Rom 7:14-25).

Paul said that the things he didnt want to do... he did. And the things he knew he should do... he didnt.

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [b]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/b] So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
(Rom 7:24-25)

"[b]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/b] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [b]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/b]"
(Rom 8:2-4)

"Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblamably we behaved ourselves among you that believe..."
(1Th 2:10)

"And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men."
(Act 24:16)

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
(1Co 11:1)

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from [b]all[/b] filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
(2Co 7:1)

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
(Jud 1:24-25)

I think when people confuse holiness with sinless perfection they can become very frustrated with their walk. I believe anyone who says they have reached sinless perfection (and I know some! Met one on here a few weeks ago) they had better watch their back because the sin of pride may well be sneaking up behind them.

If we ever did reach a state of sinless perfection in this life, we would no longer need God's grace and mercy... which are the main ingredients of salvation.

I don't really want to open up another long debate which leads to more contention, division, and misunderstanding.
But it really grieves my heart to see Christians repeatedly bringing up the same straw-man arguments against the doctrine of "entire sanctification," or what some derisively call "sinless perfection."
:cry:

Can we not at least make an effort to listen to the arguments of brothers and sisters who we disagree with BEFORE coming to conclusions and begin attacking gross distortions/misrepresentations?

Hi ginnyrose.
Just my bit on your inserted thought, being a sinner is a state of being. We will all be sinners on this earth. Even though we are saints. (Just a side note, but I think that the closer we are to God the more we see our sinfulness, as we see in Paul calling himself the chiefest of sinners.)[i]But[/i] even though we are sinners doesn't mean we sin (action). Now hear me out, I'm not saying we suddenly become immuned to sin or lose the ability to sin. There will always be the opportunity for each and every one of us to sin while we live on this earth, even Jesus could have sinned, but we can in the power of the Holy Ghost live totally above sin. I hope that makes sense :-o

Thank you for your post Isaiah64.
I've often wondered why people so react to what they call "the doctrine of sinless perfection" but which I understand to be, like you said, entire sanctification. I think maybe some mistake those that hold to the doctrine of entire sanctification as believing that we eventually come to the place where (like some say) we cannot sin. We somehow arrive at this spiritual hight where we are beyond sin. That's stretching things pretty far to get that out of what the entire sanctification camp says.

[edit] I've taken part of this post out for the sake of not seeming contentious. It was not at all meant that way but it might have come across that way so I think it best to omit that portion of this post.

For over 4000 years, from the 10 commandments to Moses Law to the Cross of Christ, God has been trying to get man to save himself and he would not, and can not. Only Christ saves and only God sends those that are Christs', to Him. Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. The word "draw" latterly to drag.

Not one wants to be saved. Romans 3:11-26 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

How are we justified, "believeth in Jesus".

Man cannot choose Jesus in himself, the only free will man has is to choose hell. God finally gave up after 4000 years and chose to birth His Son in the ones that He would cause to believe that Jesus Christ is His Son. Born again of Spirit and Water. The Spirit of "Christ in you the hope of Glory", this is the only hope of salvation. The living water Himself given that we might never thirst again.

It is not I who died, but Christ who died. Him being the only One that could take the Ones that God has give Him to the Cross with Him that we might be dead to sin as He is.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We cannot be a sinner and also be justified by Christ. Galatians 2:17-19 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

That is why we are dead to sin. It is no longer us who lives, it is Christ who lives in us with the Holy Spirit and the Father also.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in you. This is the New Creature God has birthed and we are called Christ-Ones, Christians.

In Christ: Phillip

Here is my understanding.

Romans 6:17-18 YLT
and thanks to God, that ye were servants of the sin, and--were obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which ye were delivered up; and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.

I used Young's Literal Translation because it brings out well how Sin is personified in Romans 6.

I'm sure we all agree that Romans 6 is a great chapter. Our great delivernace from, as one version puts it, "the tyranny of Sin" is proclaimed by our baptism with Christ into death.
I selected these verses above because they show my view of how we are saved from sin.

1) [b]ye were servants of the sin[/b] Unconverted men are servants of sin. By nature the unconverted are children of wrath and have a spirit or life of disobedience pushing them onward into sin. Men are seemingly beyond reason as they thrust themselves into more depravity, (John 8:34;Eph. 2:2-3)

2) [b]the form of teaching to which ye were delivered up[/b] The Word of God must be delivered up to the unconverted. The Gospel is the power of God to salvation. Without this power being manifest through resurection life, no power will be manifest to deliver the unconverted from sin since they are in total bondage to it's power as a bondslave to a master. The expression of Christ must be manifest for this very reason. When a Christian walks in resurection life this may provoke the unconverted to jealousy, especially for the religous since they outwardly seek the One who demands inward obedience. When the outward seeker sees truth manifest in the inward parts of another, they may very well hunger and thirst for true rightoueness and be filled. (Rom. 1:16;John 8:33-34;Rom. 10:19, 11:11; Matt 5:6)

3) [b]were obedient from the heart[/b] The unconverted must obey the word that was delivered to them. Faith comes through the word and we must obey the word that comes to us. This is faith. With every revelation of Christ we have, we have a responsibility. The more revelation we wrongly respond to the more wrath we may build up. Even if one is in complete disaray and serpents all around them, they must fix their eyes on Christ. No one else can do this for them, they must do it themselves. This trust and obedience must be authentic and with no double mind. (Heb 5:9; Rom 10:17; 2Thes 1:8; Luke 10:12; Heb 6:4-6; Rom 2:5;John 3; James 4:8)

4) [b]and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.[/b]
Christ sets them free, not against their desire but because they want it. The verb is in the passive voice which means that the subject is the one that is being acted on. In this case, "ye" is the subject which means the "ye" was set free from sin. I know that sounds obvious, but if someone was set free and the voice is passive it would only follow that they didn't set themselves free. If that was the case rather than "being set free", we would have been "setting ourselves free." (Romans 6:18)

In summary:

1) Man is enslaved to sin.
2) God sends forth His word.
3) Man believes.
4) God, Himself, sets them free from bondage.

In Acts chapter 2 you can see this transaction between God and Man.

Note: Saving yourself from a generation isn't the same as saving yourself from sin.

[b]Straw man argument[/b](from wikipedia.org): [i]A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.[/i]

In this case, it would be a misunderstanding of the position and arguments of those who believe in being purely sanctified. And I wasn't refering to you only, but many Christians out there who attempt to refute "entire sanctification" without really understanding what we mean by the term.

Isaiah... are you saying that something being mentioned only once in the Bible means it doesnt matter and isnt important...

No, brother, I was pointing out that Paul only lamented his inability to have victory over the flesh ONCE because he WAS able to obtain victory. Though not by his own fleshly, legalistic efforts, but through Christ. The law of the Spirit of life set him free from the law of sin and death.
No matter what your view is on Romans 7:14-25 (whether Paul was speaking as a regenerate or unregenerate person), you can clearly see that he obtained victory over sin if you read the verses in their proper context, in the light of the preceding and following chapters.

God bless you brother, have a blessed day! :-)

SANCTIFICATION

The twofold message of the gospel is summed up in the words of Jesus to the woman caught in sin:

(i) I do not condemn you; and (ii) Do not sin any more. (Jn. 8:11).

Justification is the starting line of the Christian race and sanctification is the track on which the race is run. The word `sanctify' means to be set apart. And so sanctification is the process of being set apart increasingly from sin, the world and our own self-life.

The whole purpose of our coming to Christ is in order that we might be sanctified - just as the whole purpose of an athlete coming to the starting line of a race is to take part in the race. It's pointless an athlete joining others at the starting line if he doesn't intend taking part in the race itself!

God's Purpose For Us

Most of us came to Christ at first with some selfish motive - to get some benefit for ourselves - perhaps healing, or deliverance from hellfire. But God still received us, in spite of that selfish motive. The father of the prodigal son loved him so much, that he welcomed him back, even though the son had come home only to fill his stomach. That's how good God is!

But it would be really sad if we continued in the Christian life, only because we wanted to go to heaven. As we understand more of God's purpose for our lives, we should long to fulfil that totally. Paul's prayer for the Christians at Ephesus was that they would have the eyes of their heart opened to see `the hope of His calling' (Eph. 1:18).

Romans 8:29,30 tells us what the hope of His calling is. "Whom God foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

God's purpose is that we might be transformed into the likeness of Jesus. That is what sanctification is all about - to become like Jesus increasingly. This is the Christian race that we are exhorted to run, fixing our eyes on Jesus Who has run the same race ahead of us (Heb. 12:1,2).

Finishing With Sin

The first step in this race is to stop sinning consciously. Under the Law, there was no exhortation to stop sinning. But under the new covenant, all the apostles are agreed that the twofold message of the gospel is exactly as Jesus put it : freedom from condemnation and ceasing from sin.

Paul says, "Stop sinning" (1 Cor. 15:34). John says, "I am writing these things to you that you may not sin" (1 Jn. 2:1). Peter also exhorts us to `cease from sin' (1 Pet. 4:1).

After explaining justification by faith in Romans 5, Paul asks this question, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may increase?" (Rom. 6:1). And again (with greater force this time), "What then? Shall we sin even once?" (Rom. 6:15 -Literal). The answer in both cases is a resounding `No'. We should seek not to sin even once, any more.

Does that sound like a heavy, burdensome message? It can be burdensome only to those who want to keep on sinning! But it's a joyful message of liberation to those who are sick and tired of sin's captivity. Any prisoner would be delighted if he heard a message that he could be free. That wouldn't sound burdensome to him, would it?

Jesus was anointed to proclaim "release to the captives (of sin) and to set free those who are trodden down (by Satan)" (Lk. 4:18).

The glorious new-covenant promise is : "Sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law (the old covenant), but under grace (the new covenant established by Jesus)" (Rom. 6:14). The first step to victory is to believe that such a life is possible for you.

Temptation and Sin

There is a difference between being tempted and sinning. The Bible says, "Each one is tempted when he is enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin" (Jas.1:14,15). Sin is not born in our heart, until the desire of our flesh has been allowed to conceive. When Satan or the flesh flash a suggestion into our mind, we are tempted. If our mind agrees with that temptation, then a conception takes place and sin is born.

To be tempted doesn't make us evil. Even Jesus Himself was tempted. But He never sinned even once in any way, and so He was totally pure.

The Scripture says that Jesus was "made like His brethren in all things" and "tempted in ALL THINGS as we are" (Heb. 2:17; 4:15). He was tempted exactly like us, yet He never sinned.

That may not sound very wonderful to some of us, because we may feel that Jesus, being God, could naturally overcome sin easily. But remember, He had "emptied Himself" of the prerogatives of equality with God, when He came to earth (Phil. 2:6,7). Although He was God, yet while He lived on earth as a man, He had access only to the same power of the Holy Spirit that He offers us today. That's why we are told to run the race, "fixing our eyes on Jesus." In our "striving against sin" today, we can look at His example and be encouraged (Heb. 12:2-4). That's because He overcame each temptation that we face, as a Man too. Thus He has become a Forerunner and an Example for us to follow (Heb. 6:20).

This is "the secret of godliness......- Christ came in the flesh ....... and was declared righteous in the spirit" (1 Tim. 3:16). Although He had our flesh, He kept His spirit pure throughout His life.

This is what gives us hope that we too can overcome as He overcame. For He has "inaugurated a new and living way through the flesh" for us, in which we can follow Him (Heb. 10:20). This is the way of sanctification.

The Old Man and The New Man

We have already seen how the old man was like an unfaithful servant who allowed the thieves to enter the home. That old man however has been crucified, put off and buried. There is a new man now within us, who says, "Behold I have come to do Thy will, O God" (Heb. 10:7).

Yet we know that it's possible for a disciple of Jesus to sin. But there is a difference between a disciple sinning and an unbeliever sinning, just as there is a difference between a cat falling into dirty water and a pig choosing to jump into the dirty water! The cat hates the dirty water, but may fall into it accidentally. The pig, however, loves it. It's all a question of nature. The disciple of Jesus has a new nature that loves purity and hates sin.

The old man wants to sin. The new man never wants to sin. But if the new man is not strong enough, he may not be able to keep the door of his heart shut against the desires of the flesh. That's not because he wants those desires. No. But because he is not strong enough to resist them. This may be, because he has not fed himself sufficiently on the Word of God, or because he has not strengthened himself through prayer.

So, there's a difference between committing sin and falling into sin. It's important to know this difference; for we can then avoid a lot of unnecessary feelings of condemnation in our heart.

The Bible says that "the one who practises sin (that is, one who keeps on committing sin deliberately) is of the devil" (1 Jn. 3:8). On the other hand, he writes to believers saying, "If anyone sins (that is, if one falls into sin accidentally), we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He is the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn. 2:1,2).

Conscious and Unconscious Sin

There is also a difference between falling into sin and having sin. To have sin is to have unconscious sin in our personality - sin that we ourselves are unaware of, even though others who are more mature than us may be able to notice it in us. But such unconscious sin need never make us feel guilty. For God's Word says, "sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Rom. 5:13). (This also means that God does not impute sin to us when there is no awareness of sin in our conscious mind).

We shall have unconscious sin in us, until our dying day - to a lesser and lesser degree, however, if we walk in the light. The Bible says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves," (1 Jn. 1:8). One who says that he has no sin is actually claiming that he has already become perfect like Christ. But God's Word says that we shall "be like Him", only when He returns - not before that (1 Jn. 3:2). Those who claim to be totally sanctified and perfect already are therefore only deceiving themselves.

Unconscious sin however needs to be cleansed; and "the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all (unconscious) sin" too, as long as we walk in the light of God (1 Jn. 1:7). So we can stand boldly now, in the presence of an infinitely Holy God, without any fear.

Such is the power of the blood of Christ to justify us. Hallelujah!

Mercy and Grace

We are told to come boldly "to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Heb. 4:16). Mercy and grace are not the same. Mercy refers to the forgiveness of our sins. That relates to our past. But we also need grace - for our time of need, in the future.

Our time of need is when we are tempted, when we are about to fall - just like Peter, when he was about to sink in the sea of Galilee (Matt. 14:30). That's when we should cry out for grace; and just as Jesus stretched out His hand immediately to hold Peter, we'll find that we get grace too, so that we stand and don't fall.

There are wonderful promises in God's Word that assure us that God will keep us from falling. Just look at some of these:

First of all, God promises that He will never allow us to be tempted by any temptation that is too strong for us to overcome: "God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).

God's Word also says : "He is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless" (Jude 24).

With these and many other wonderful promises given us in God's Word, there is no need for us to sin any more. Our life can henceforth be lived to do the will of God alone (as it says in 1 Peter 4:2).

Progressive Sanctification

Jesus told His apostles to teach others to obey all that He had commanded (Matt. 28:20). One who loves the Lord will first of all seek with all his heart to find out what those commandments are; and then he will seek to obey them (John 14:21).

Under the Law, God gave man commandments, but not the power to obey them. Why then did God give the Law? Only in order that man might discover that he's unable to come up to God's standards, and thus see his need of a Saviour and a Helper. "The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ" (Gal. 3:24).

But now God has made a new covenant with man. And He has given us, not only commandments, but also an Example in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus demonstrated by His earthly life that it is possible for us to obey all of God's commandments.

God has also promised under the new covenant to put His Laws into our minds and to write them upon our hearts (Heb. 8:10). He does this through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. The Holy Spirit is our Helper Who not only shows us what the will of God is, but also gives us a desire to do that will and grace to obey all of it too.

God is the One Who is going to sanctify us entirely (1 Thess. 5:23). We can't do it on our own. We have to depend on Him - for He is the One Who works in us giving us both the desire as well as the ability to do His will. But we have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12,13). We have to work out what God works in, for He hasn't turned us into robots!

God cleanses us from the guilt of sin. But we are commanded to "cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor. 7:1). We have to do this, as and when we get light on any defilement within us.

It is thus, as we "by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the body" (Rom. 8:13) that the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control - will become more and more manifest in us. This is what it means to be transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Thus our path will become one of increasing light (Prov. 4:18). This is the glorious way of sanctification that God has made for us.

Zac Poonen
[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=a_good_foundation]A Good Foundation[/url]

It is the Holy Spirit that brings the word to the believer, sent forth from the Father by the prayer of Christ. He is not Christ.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, He only speaks what He hears, He shows us things that are to come, He testifies of Christ, The Father sends Him to make the things that Christ said come forth in our hearts.

This is how God sends forth His Word and His Word is Christ shed abroad in our hearts.

Man believes what the Holy Spirit has put in his mind, Then the Father gives birth to His Son in us because we believe. That Birth brings The Faith of Christ into our life, for He is now our life. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Then He becomes our wisdom, our righteousness, our justification and our redemption.

This is our birth into these that are of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Ye must be born again. Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Christ is the Word.

These are the born again. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I see none of this in Acts 2. Except the Holy Spirit came. From that time to Paul, the Holy Spirit was misused to do their bidding. He is still being misused and will continue unless the church learn that the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are different, as is the Father.

Paul makes it very clear, he speaks of Christ in you over 200 times and especially 147 time the in Christ statement is mentioned and elaborated upon. It is truly Christ in you that is the hope of Glory. Christ in us and us in Christ and the Holy Spirit in us also and the Father also, abiding in us to make us whole in Christ. Know this now. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

"And He has given us, not only commandments, but also an Example in the person of our Lord Jesus"

Is it really about copying Jesus as a supreme example with the Holy Spirit giving us an extra boost of desire to be holy - unlike the challenges of keeping the law - don't we just become more likely to be either exalted because of our success, or depressed in despair because of our failure? What is the difference between trying to live up to the law vs living up to the example of Jesus?

Brother Robert asks:

What is the difference between trying to live up to the law vs living up to the example of Jesus?

The "example of Jesus" is not predicated or defined by the naratives given to us in Scripture, rather it is the "process" by which Jesus demonstated to us in those naratives. Jesus followed the Spirit of God perfectly. Jesus demonstrated to us how to 'use the law of the Spirit" to overcome the works of Satan our former master.

In Christ
Jeff

Wow... that's a poor understanding of scripture

We cannot be a sinner and also be justified by Christ.

We as the children of God are saints, yes. [i]But[/i] we are also sinners still too. Unless Paul didn't understand this matter as well as we do! :-o

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Heck, I'm arguing that none of us here are sinless, especially me.

Be careful that you dont become a pharisee calling others "pharisees".

Krispy

AMEN!

To them who argue that since Paul only mentioned struggling with his flesh once in scripture (which isnt true)...

I don't know...maybe I haven't seen it or can't remember it right now, but can you please show me another example from Scripture where Paul laments his inability to have victory over the flesh?

Taking up our cross daily means that every single day we must gain the victory over sin, thru the Spirit. There IS a struggle. We're in a war. Unfortunately we may not win every battle, but there is grace from the throne above. Sometimes I lose yardage... every day is not a first down for me. I'm glad some of you live in that kind of victory, but average joe's like me have to fight and claw for every inch we gain down field.

This is why I say you misunderstand the position of those who believe that the Scripture clearly teaches entire sanctification. In no way do I believe that you will ever on this earth get to a place where you CANNOT sin. As Leonard Ravenhill said, "It's not the inability to sin, it's the ability NOT to sin." It doesn't mean you won't be tempted (our Lord Jesus was tempted), it doesn't mean life won't be a struggle. But the Lord can do such a work in your heart, and His presence can be so real in your life, and the love of God can be so perfected in your soul, that you wll be able to live in victory daily. Can you fall from being purely sanctified? Yes you can. It's a daily walk with the Lord, and you always have to be on your guard, taking heed lest you fall. But I don't know about you, but it would be a little hard to sin for me if I were in the very presence of Christ.

I wonder what you would say about the following verses (which I previously pointed out)?

"Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblamably we behaved ourselves among you that believe..."
(1Th 2:10)

"And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men."
(Act 24:16)

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
(1Co 11:1)

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
(Jud 1:24-25)

Especially this one:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from [b]all[/b] filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
(2Co 7:1)

Remember, "all" means all. :-)

Let's be specific

You must realize the difference between conscious and unconscious sin - because the Scriptures make a clear distinction. You will always have sin and unrighteousness because you will always fall short of the [b]infinite[/b] perfection, faith and Glory of God and anything less according to Scripture is sin. You must be saved from all known sin and walk in that state or you are not saved. If you walk with a clean heart, a pure conscience and free from any known sin, loving God will all of your heart mind, soul and strength then you are living righteous and godly in this life - this is the normal Christian life - walking in Romans Chapter 8 as a living reality in your life.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin- so unless you say that you do not fall short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God then you my brother have unconscious sin according to the Scriptures. That's where the rubber hits the road!

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

If you ask God to show you where in your life you fall short of the infinite perfection of Jesus Christ I am sure that He will be glad to be very specific.

Unless of course you claim to not fall short of the infinite perfection of Jesus Christ in anyway the that work of God showing you where you fall short of Christ's infinite perfection is done in your life.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

I meant to mention this eariler.

NEW HEART

- God says He gives man a new heart:

Eze 36:26 - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

- God commands man to make his own new heart:

Eze 18:31 - Cast away from yourselves all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Do you honestly believe those are referring to the same thing? If you do, do you see what the implications are? If they are the same, then the new covenant really isn't new in nature. If they could receive a new heart in the same manner and in the same way in the old covenant as one does in the new covenant, then only things that have changed are a few rules. Possibly, unless you believe like dmatic. If you believe that the OT saints received a new heart just like us, then really there can't be much of a difference. I know you may say that we are now under a "law of love" but I honestly can't swallow that the OT saints didn't love God in a real way.

Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin- so unless you say that you do not fall short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God then you my brother have unconscious sin according to the Scriptures.

Do you believe we will alway sin in heaven? Do all the angels sin? I don't believe the answer to either question is anything but "no." None can compare to God- ever.

Patrick,

Please receive this in the way I mean it. I don't mean it to just stir up things.

You must be saved from all known sin and walk in that state or you are not saved.

Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin- so unless you say that you do not fall short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God then you my brother have unconscious sin according to the Scriptures.

So are you saying you are conscious that you have known sin? Does that mean the first quote applies to you? :-? I don't see how both quotes can be entirely true in your way of thinking.

Does this not mean that if I admit the first, I'm lying. And if I admit the second, I'm not saved?

I've actually met people who have told me that they have reached sinless perfection.

I reach Sinless Perfection quite often. Prayer is the best place to meet Him. :-D

(I think Ron Baliey was the first to say something similar to that, but I really like it!)

Someone in this long thread asked, if we cannot stop sinning, then which one...etc. This makes me think that we misunderstand what sin is. Certainly there are specific actions that we can point to and name it as sin, lying for example. But sin is a much deeper issue than that. Does the scripture not say that [i]everything[/i] that is not of faith is sin? For those of you who claim you no longer sin, do you really claim to be living in absolute 100% perfect faith 24/7? If you say yes, you've just committed sin by lying. The very notion of us existing in the here and now as perfect little saints offends me to the extreme. Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. The tense here is one of an ongoing process which isn't finished until that final day. Egads, this stuff makes me groan as much as the lukewarm church does.

Perfect[i]ing[/i] holiness in the fear of God,

Doug

Are you saying that if I don't live a perfectly sinless life from now on I will be sent to hell?

Is this not another gospel?

What I am saying is that we sin in ways that we aren't even aware of. To be 100% sinless would mean that every single thought, attitude and action in my life is completely and totally motivated by nothing less than the purest agape love of God. Can you claim to be doing this 24/7? I can't. How anyone can fail to see this is beyond my comprehension.

You are preaching a works gospel here. I agree that in the major outward categories of sin, it is possible to live free and not commit them. But you seem to be preaching the notion of perfection. If we are already perfect, then what is there to work out regarding our salvation?

This is my last comment on this thread. I don't agree with you. End of discussion.

I see this thread is getting a little heated. I'm nearly reluctant to mention anything else... but I wanted to point this out.

Does the scripture not say that everything that is not of faith is sin?

The scripture you are referencing is in the context of doing things that are against your conscience ie eating meat offered to idols. I believe that verse is plainly talking about doing things that you are not sure are pleasing to God. If we do something that we are doubtful that is acceptable in the sight of God, we receive judgment. What we do we must have faith that it isn't in rebellion to God.

The only reason I mention this is because I've seen some feel in such bondage because they didn't think they were doing something "in faith." This could have been something like tying their shoe. The felt condemned because in their mind they said, "Was I tying my shoe in faith or my own power?" I know it sounds silly, but people have felt condemned over it.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ, is acceptable to God, and approved by men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things with which one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For the sake of food, destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offense.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing by which thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Good point Preach, admonishment accepted. It doesn't alter my position though, too many other scriptures express an ongoing process of sanctification.

As to the heated nature, I agree, which is why I wanted to back away from continued debate.

Bless you brother,

Doug

Patrick,

Please receive this in the way I mean it. I don't mean it to just stir up things.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must be saved from all known sin and walk in that state or you are not saved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin- so unless you say that you do not fall short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God then you my brother have unconscious sin according to the Scriptures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So are you saying you are conscious that you have known sin? Does that mean the first quote applies to you? I don't see how both quotes can be entirely true in your way of thinking.

Does this not mean that if I admit the first, I'm lying. And if I admit the second, I'm not saved?

No I am not saying that at all - you have mis-understood me. In the second staement I am specifically talking about unconsious or unknown sin.

The point that I was trying to make is that sanctification is a process that will continue your whole life because there will always be unknown areas of your life were you fall short of the infinitely perfect love, faith, patients, mercy, humility, etc. of Jesus Christ - and yes falling short or missing the mark is sin by it's very definition. I had a brother tell me recently "well I don't call that sin" I answered him by saying "when God reveals those areas and puts His finger on the such things do you need to repent of where you have fallen short and missed the mark and if you continue to blatantly fall short and miss the mark then are you on your way to hell?" He answered "yes you have to repent and turn when God shows you were you have fallen short and if you don't then you are on your way to hell" I think it was painfully clear how silly it was to not call such things sin. But this brother couldn't call such things either sin or in-perfections because if he did then his whole theology would start to fall apart - he had to call them mistakes. I told him "if it is missing the mark or falling short and you have to repent and turn from it then the Bible calls it sin and I am going to call it sin"

I am sure you are aware that there are areas in you life that the Lord has not reveled to you yet where you fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. I am also reasonably sure you would agree when the Lord reveals these areas to you then you must repent and turn from them. Know I don't care if you call it sin or not - it doesn't matter to me what you call it as long as you agree that:

1. You have unknown areas in your life where you fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. thus you are not perfect.

2. When the Lord shows you these area of in-perfection in your life where you miss the mark or fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. you must repent and turn from what ever it is that the Lord shows you.

Can we at least agree with these two points?

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

The point that I was trying to make is that sanctification is a process that will continue your whole life because there will always be unknown areas of your life were you fall short of the infinitely perfect love, faith, patients, mercy, humility, etc. of Jesus Christ - and yes falling short or missing the mark is sin by it's very definition.

This is where I am struggling with your position. Are you conscience that you don't line up to this definition of sin or do you know that there are areas you don't line up with? If you are conscience of it, you must repent. If you are not conscience of it, how can you speak of it? I don't know if it's possible to speak of something that you don't know exist.

Maybe I can put it like this. Are you perfect in mercy? If you say no, then you admit you have a consciencness of it- which as you say is sin. Are you lining up with the full knowledge you have in the area of mercy? If yes, how can you say you're not perfect in mercy since you don't know any measure of mercy that is higher? I hope that makes sense. I don't want to sound really philosophical...

Here are some more questions. For some reason I end up asking lots of questions in posts. Of course I don't expect you to answer them all. I just do it that way so you can see my thinking.

Are there certain aspects of God that we can be conscience of and it not be sin if we don't line up? An example is that I know that God "knows all things." Surely, you don't believe it's a sin for me to not know all things? If you do think it's a sin, then it's an unrepentable sin- there is now way I can repent from it.

Are there certain aspects of God that we can be conscience of and it not be sin if we don't line up? An example is that I know that God "knows all things." Surely, you don't believe it's a sin for me to not know all things? If you do think it's a sin, then it's an unrepentable sin- there is now way I can repent from it.

I just noticed that someone could uses this to say that when we go to heaven we won't have sin based on 1 Cor 13:12. I'll use another attribute of God instead- His omnipresence. I'm fairly convinced we can never have that- even if we are conscience of it.

Ah... see, this is where you're not understanding me. There is a difference between struggle and victory. You can struggle and still have victory.

Ok, now I get what you're saying. And I agree. There is a difference between struggling with temptation, and [i]giving in to it.[/i]

So, are you telling us that you have no sin in your life? You're living in total victory?

If the answer is "no", then how do you know that it's possible to reach victory over all sin?

Thanks for bringing up 1 John 2:1-2. I'd forgotten about that one (my memory's not as good as it used to be). It actually proves my point.

1 John 2:1-2: [i]My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.[/i]

So the very reason this was written was so we WOULDN'T sin.

[i]And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...[/i]

And then it says "IF any man sin," not that we have to, but should the unfortunate event occur that we fall to temptation, we have an advocate in Christ Jesus.

And since we're discussing Paul admitting that he daily struggled with his flesh (just as Jesus said we would), can you show me where Paul declares his total victory over his flesh?

Well, Romans 8 and the other verses I pointed out I think explain themselves well.

Maybe I can put it like this. Are you perfect in mercy? If you say no, then you admit you have a consciencness of it- which as you say is sin. Are you lining up with the full knowledge you have in the area of mercy? If yes, how can you say you're not perfect in mercy since you don't know any measure of mercy that is higher? I hope that makes sense. I don't want to sound really philosophical...

I still think you are misunderstanding.

Fist of all I would not the use the word perfect and would ask for clear definition of the word perfect before I answered - but to answer your question...

If you asked me - are you perfect in mercy - my answer would be both yes and no - yes in the fact that according to my present knowledge I am lining up with the full knowledge I have in the area of mercy but at the same time I admit that I fall short and miss the mark of the infinite perfect mercy of God.

Now the Bible gives different definition of sin -would agree that one definition is missing the mark or falling short? And another definition would be transgression of the law?

Also, the Bible make definite distinction between known and deliberate sin and unknown sin. I do agree that it is sometime hard to wrap a logical mind around this but it is what the Bible says none the less. Would you agree that the Bible makes this distinction between known and un-known, willful and un-willful and deliberate and un-deliberate sin?

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

If you asked me - are you perfect in mercy - my answer would be both yes and no - yes in the fact that according to my present knowledge I am lining up with the full knowledge I have in the area of mercy but at the same time I admit that I fall short and miss the mark of the infinite perfect mercy of God.

This is where I think we differ. I don't believe God expects us to be like Him in the magnitude that He is. I believe that is impossible. I think we both agree on that. I believe God expects me to do what He has revealed to me. I honestly don't see where He expects me to do things that He hasn't revealed to me. Here are some verses that come to mind.

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I don't believe everything is relative, but there is an relative aspect to some sin. I think it's interesting that someone can commit an action that in God's eyes is not unclean, yet if for some reason the individual feels it is wrong and does it anyways, it's sin.

Also, the Bible make definite distinction between known and deliberate sin and unknown sin. I do agree that it is sometime hard to wrap a logical mind around this but it is what the Bible says none the less. Would you agree that the Bible makes this distinction between known and un-known, willful and un-willful and deliberate and un-deliberate sin?

I struggle a little with this. I know in the OT there is talk of unknown sin. This is because people may honestly not know the law. The law was something that had to be read and studied. It was something that was external; it had to be taught. Since the law is now written on our hearts and we have an anointing that teaches us all things...

I think there are verses that I've seen used to say that someone can commit unknown sins in the NT, but I can't think of any right now. Can you show me some examples?

Here is another question. Do "unknown sins" produce guilt?

This is where I think we differ. I don't believe God expects us to be like Him in the magnitude that He is. I believe that is impossible. I think we both agree on that. I believe God expects me to do what He has revealed to me. I honestly don't see where He expects me to do things that He hasn't revealed to me.

I think we agree completely - God only expects you to do it AFTER he reveals it you, as you have aptly said. The only thing I am saying is that it was still there before God revealed it to you - right?

Here is another question. Do "unknown sins" produce guilt?

Only after they are revealed then they are repented of and turned from.

I think there are verses that I've seen used to say that someone can commit unknown sins in the NT, but I can't think of any right now. Can you show me some examples?

Anything from the time you were born again that you did not realize was sin or was in your life or your heart before God revealed it to you was in my definition unknown sin. For example and I am sure we all have many - has there even been after you have been born again an area of pride or anger or unforgivenness in you heart that the Lord revealed to you? We know that pride and anger and unforgivenness are all sins - they were there before the Lord revealed them to you as unknown sins - when God revealed them to you, they became known sins, produced guilt, then you repented and turned from them. That would be my definition and example of known and un-known sin - does that make sense?

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

To willfully sin or to commit sin or to be a worker of iniquity is what I would described as willful sin - meaning you know it is sin and you do or commit it anyway. I know it is a sin to lie but I am going to lie anyway - that would be willful sin. But you may have an area of pride in your heart that the Lord has not revealed to you yet - I know because the Lord has recently revealed to me secret areas of pride hidden deep in the recesses of my heart that I was unaware of - now this pride is definitely sin even before God reveals it - because we know that pride is a sin. This is what I would refer to as unknown sin - it is there and it is sin but God has not revealed it to you yet.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

We know that pride and anger and unforgivenness are all sins - they were there before the Lord revealed them to you as unknown sins - when God revealed them to you, they became known sins, produced guilt, then you repented and turned from them. That would be my definition and example of known and un-known sin - does that make sense?

It does. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Our victory over sin comes thru the shed blood of Christ, not thru our own efforts of not sinning.

Amen. I think sometimes for those who teach a full deliverance from sin, it's hard to not come across in a way that the focus isn't on the Christian.

Our victory over sin comes thru the shed blood of Christ, not thru our own efforts of not sinning.

Amen!

I think this thread may set some folks up for a lot of frustration and disillusionment by telling them they must be sinless. It;s not going to happen.

We should all seek after holiness, but I think if you expect someday to reach sinless perfection... you're setting yourself up for failure and disappointment.

Amen! It is really sad what some even on Sermonindex preach in the mask of holiness - it reminds of the Pharisees heaping boulder on mens shoulder - I have seen first hand the sad fruit of this type of teaching and mis-focus - when the focus is taken off of Christ and put upon a doctrine.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

sigh...God bless you guys.

I'm through with this debate. Just reading everying written on this thread gives me a headache.

I'm a simple person. It's pretty clear to me by reading Scripture (and that's how I came to my conclusions--through Scripture) that you can be filled with all the fullness of Christ and His perfect love, and obtain full victory over sin.
Numerous verses from the Bible promise us victory. The Lord's not going to promise us something that can't be done.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [b]Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.[/b]"
(1Th 5:23-24)

I'm not seeking a doctrine, I'm seeking a Person. Christ is my sanctification. I'm going to seek Him to fill me with the fullness of His presence, power, and cleansing--and I believe with all my heart that it can be done. I don't care how long it takes. I'm going to seek Him until I find Him and until He blesses me.

If this seems wrong, legalistic, or heretical to any of you, I do apologize.

But I just want to encourage all of you to put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, who is able to do exceedingly above all that we can ask or think.

hi, i was looking in the bible to see how many men or women were called holy;i found none,paul,peter james,john, moses,isiah...none. Jesus even said call no man good. the heart of man is DESPARATELY wicked...only the thrice holy God is Holy. the ground that was holy was because He was there. the bible is because He is on every page.your only holiness is when you are in Christ and the father only sees His Son.jimp

i just yesterday listend to a Tozer sermon and he said something that i think has a little to do with this, he said something like

"nowdays so many try and separate the house from the foundation, they try and separate the tree from the root"

, and i think that is what happends a lot concerning holiness...

and another quote from Tozer you all know that is wonderful,

"you are as Holy as you want to be"

Press on brothers & sisters

Christian

I aggree with you Isaiah64.
I think if we had less doctrine, and more Jesus in the body, we would all attain to holiness.
We need to believe in him and what he has done for us. I cannot and never will be able to be holy apart from him. I had to die, not just In my spirit walk, but everything, even my very self.
I couldn't even kill myself, I had to trust that Jesus did it at the cross, the moment I believed onto salvation. Everybody talks about Christ in them, this is true, but it's not just a word in a book, that if we hang on in faith, will become a reality. If you have accepted Jesus, all of this is all ready done in you, you may not have the experience of it, because we need revelation Knowlege by his spirit, this we can ask God for and he will give it. We need to see ourselves hid in Jesus, seated at the throne of Grace, where our work is done and Jesus is able to live his holy life through us. He's the only one who is without sin. That's how Jesus walked , all the fullness of the Father dwelt in him, and he reveiled God's Love to a dying world.
We need to stop struggling with sin , and our Christian walk, and enter into God,s Sabbath rest in the heavenlies, when we give up Jesus can live through us.
Love in Christ, tom

Amen.
There is nothing that we have that has not been given us in Jesus Christ. It is because He is our Savior from sin that we have the power over sin. Because God the Father has commanded us to be holy, it stands as a sure fact that we can live holy lives in the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Holiness is NOT sinless perfection. Rather it is living righteous lives by God's indwelling Presence on a moment to moment basis.

I love what Charles Finney says about living a holy life:
"It has long been maintained by orthodox divines, that a person is not a Christian who does not aim at living without sin - that unless he aims at perfection, he manifestly consents to live in sin; and is therefore certainly impenitent. It has been, and I think truly, said, that if a man does not in the fixed purpose of his heart, aim at total abstinence from sin, and at being wholly confirmed to the will of God, he is not yet regenerated, and does not so much as mean to cease from abusing God."

Marcos

Romans 3:20

20 Therefore b[b]y the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight[/b], for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We know that the Law came to reveal to man the righteousness of God. But the Law that was intended to bring life actually brought death, because all it did was to show us that we were sinners.

Israel, in the time of Moses until Christ, were to keep the Laws of God in ordinances to have righteousness before God.

Paul said in Philippians 3:6-8 “concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ”

The law of God requires righteousness, so why would Paul discard his righteousness...(works in the Law) if he were so perfect in it?

hmmmm got to think about that one...

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God [b]apart from the law [/b]is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

I wonder what that is?

[b]How is[/b] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus work to bring righteousness anyway?

Got to think about that one too!!

The answer is very simple actually, well not to everyone, just those to whom the Father will show this to. It is because Jesus took away ALL my sins forever, and in the [size=3]absence of sin the Law is fulfilled.

So, Here is a question:

If a person were completely sin free in their life, would the righteousness or holiness that the Law of God requires be fulfilled?

The answer is yes!

So...if Jesus took away all of my sins after repentance, and I am blameless before God and sin free, do I fulfill the righteousness or holiness that the law of God requires?

[b]The answer is yes[/b]; I fulfill the righteousness that the law of God requires because I have no sin in Jesus...because Jesus took away my sins and nailed to the cross! ...I am therefore sin free before God and fulfill the righteousness of the law. This is what is meant by the righteousness by faith and NOT by works!!!

So then the righteousness that the Law of God requires, is fulfilled in every single person who comes to Jesus. This is what it means that Christ is the end of the law and that He fulfilled the law. This is the righteousness which is by faith, and not by the works of the Law of God.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

How is the Law established?

The Law is established because [u]there is no more sin to deal with[/u], because Jesus took the sin away, and in the absence of sin the Law is Fulfilled, …yes it is established! This is the righteousness that is by faith, and not by the works of the Law.

Romans 5: 1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Holiness becomes you...

I have shared this before, but will share it again here.

God truly wants the repentance of man, for man to make a volitional choice for Him...to openly repent before Him and to follow Him, to Call upon Him...

He wants good works towards Him based on a loving personal relationship, and not on good works based on a reliance of oneself… or in ones' ability to live holy by following a given set of rules – and yes there is a difference.

Yes, there are moral rules and guidelines to follow and understand, but they are only to instruct me in the ways of righteousness and holiness [b]as I seek Him inwardly, and personally[/b] and they teach me of the nature of Jesus.

The scriptures give me an understanding of the nature of Him who has called me out of this world to be His son, to a new life in Him which is hidden in Christ Jesus - the Holy Spirit bears witness to this truth.

His good works in me (holiness) comes, not based on my own understanding of what true holiness is, but rather based on the inner workings of the Holy Spirit in my life since I accepted Him, and it is in my yielding to Him in all things, and not on my adherence or on reliance of myself to seek His favour by doing good works (what I perceive as holiness). It's not what I can do, it's what He does through me.

Because I love Him in the very pit of my soul, and am born of Him, I will seek out those things that always please Him, I will hate the things that He hates, and I will love the things that He loves...if only that I may have just one moment, just one moment in time that I may truly glorify Him in this earthly body…this I will do as His Holy Spirit, who is within me permits, and teaches me all things.

Does this mean that I will never make a mistake and never sin again? ...no it does not. I hope that I never sin again, but if I do, I know I have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. If I acknowledge my sins before God, He is faithful and just to forgive me and to cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. Galatians 6:15

Hence and therefore my salvation is not based upon me believing that my good works toward Him (personal holiness) will save me (or even merit me any favor), but rather on a TOTAL surrender of my life to Him, and upon a reliance on Him for my holiness and righteousness, that He who has begun a good work in me will complete it until the very day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

I just need only to yield to Him, I just need only to yield to Him and say yes Lord, yes Lord...have your way and be glorified in me.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

[i]Repentance is a rocky road best travelled in the day, when there is light, lest darkness comes, and I stumble in the dark...that is to say the Spirit of God will not always strive with man. I will therefore humble myself before the God of heaven and pray, who has called me...to walk this road of repentance..that leads to eternal life.
[/i]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6qNCIDtyCw&feature"]RUN[/url]

I can no longer live my life in the world like I am not saved from it...I can no longer do the things I did when I was not walking with the Lord...Lord Jesus help me.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGMG_PVaJoI"]A Call to Anguish [/url]

Marcos wrote:
Amen.
There is nothing that we have that has not been given us in Jesus Christ. It is because He is our Savior from sin that we have the power over sin. Because God the Father has commanded us to be holy, it stands as a sure fact that we can live holy lives in the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Holiness is NOT sinless perfection. Rather it is living righteous lives by God's indwelling Presence on a moment to moment basis.

I love what Charles Finney says about living a holy life:
"It has long been maintained by orthodox divines, that a person is not a Christian who does not aim at living without sin - that unless he aims at perfection, he manifestly consents to live in sin; and is therefore certainly impenitent. It has been, and I think truly, said, that if a man does not in the fixed purpose of his heart, aim at total abstinence from sin, and at being wholly confirmed to the will of God, he is not yet regenerated, and does not so much as mean to cease from abusing God."

Marcos

I actually like this...I am going to paraphrase it to understand it better...

Holiness is NOT sinless perfection, but rather it is living righteous lives by the power of God's indwelling...the presence of His Holy Spirit (to whom we yield our lives and will) on a moment to moment basis daily.

... a Christian who does not aim at living without sin, certainly remains impenitent. - Unless a Christian aims at perfection, he manifestly consents to live in sin. A born again Christian sets it in his heart to aim at total abstinence from sin, and to be wholly confirmed to the will of God.

A Christians aim should be to please The One who has called him out of this world to be His child.

It's not so hard to be set apart like this...we give up the world when we repent of our sins, but we will have the joy of our salvation in return, and communion of the Holy Spirit...and much love in our hearts.

I have briefly, in this thread, explained righteousness by faith and not by works, I need to explain about being born again.

In a nutshell...

Sins had to be removed first before the Holy Spirit could be given, because God cannot look upon sin.

Before Christ Jesus ascended on high and sat down at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit could not come. Sins being removed through the blood of the Lamb, the Holy Spirit could come...and this set in motion the ability to become a new creation (born again).

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13