Gentile Tribulation Question

I was talking to a brother who was telling me that no gentiles will be saved during the Trib. Now I know that Revelation is a Jewish book, the Church is rarely mentioned after the first five chapters. But I not only do not see his view in Scripture, but I see Scripture that I believe contradict this mans theory (Revelation 7). SO I was just wondering where this view is found? Or where it originated?....for backround info: I do not have a personal view on Revelation, In my study of Biblical interpretation I do believe that Revelation will be fulfilled literally, but as to what is literal and what is prophetic language I do not know.
So yeah thanks for looking and God Bless
Thom Provost

[b]Amen ... Rev. 7 ... it don't get no plainer ... :-D [/b]

Rev.7
[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
[b][9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple:[/b] and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
[17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Not being one to believe in the pretrib nonsense being peddled to the "christian" today, these scriptures, only 2 of many, clearly state that God has a remnant here witnessing, and sharing the gospel.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Blessings Greg

Thank you for your responses, I still am wondering if anyone knows where this thought process (that not gentiles will be saved during the tribulation started). I have no personal opinion on the rapture as of yet pre-post-mid...whatever! But I do know there will be a tribulation, and cannot find anyone in church history who shares the view my brother in the Lord share (again no gentiles/non-jews will be saved during the trib)
God Bless
Thom Provost

Hi Provost,

I think it's important that you lay aside any presuppositions that it appears you've picked up from the pretribulational camp, like Revelation being Jewish and the Church not found within it... these simply are not true. Revelation is not at all meant for only Jewish people but for all people, and the argument that the Church is not mentioned is a false conjecture. So before anything else, I think it would be good if you dropped these ideas.

I'm going to guess that the belief of no Gentiles being saved during the tribulation comes from the idea that the Holy Spirit is removed, which also is not true. Either that, or this man takes the verses that say "they repented not of their blasphemies" and interprets that to mean that nobody will ever repent. But those Scriptures from Daniel are a good example of saints shining amid those dark days.

Jesus did say, "the night cometh, when no man can work." (John 9:4)

I was talking to a brother who was telling me that no gentiles will be saved during the Trib. Now I know that Revelation is a Jewish book, the Church is rarely mentioned after the first five chapters. But I not only do not see his view in Scripture, but I see Scripture that I believe contradict this mans theory (Revelation 7). SO I was just wondering where this view is found? Or where it originated?....for backround info: I do not have a personal view on Revelation, In my study of Biblical interpretation I do believe that Revelation will be fulfilled literally, but as to what is literal and what is prophetic language I do not know.

My first response is that you find this book:
[url=http://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Code-Bible-REALLY-Matters/dp/0849901847/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9906651-7724115?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186598071&sr=8-1]The Apocolypse Code[/url] by Hank Hanegraaff. I am reading this book right now and I recommend it to everyone who is a pretrib dispensationalist or knows a pretrib dispensationalist.

From the jacket cover:
"Of the over four hundred verses in the book of Revelation, more than two-thirds allude to passages in the Old Testament. Why, then, do we treat Revelation as a special case? Why do we act as if the rules of exegesis do not apply, and look for the key to its mysteries in this morning's newspaper or some futurist's predictions?
Hank Hanegraaff argues that the book of Revelation is obscure to us because 'we have not sufficiently learned to read the Bible for all it's worth. When our interpretations are tethered to the hottest sensation rather than to the Holy Scripture, we are apt to grab at anything--and usually miss." The Apocalypse Code is a guide to holding on to what is true in the book of Revelation as in the rest of Scripture.
'throughout the history of the church, wrongheaded teachings have appeared that temporarily attracted a large following, only to become fading fads once the light of proper biblical interpretation illuminated. their error. A current example is dispensational pretribulation rapture theology promoted by such prophecy pundits as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, John Hagee and others. For years now, I've been wondering what might convince such prophecy specialists to recognize that the eschatology they are foisting on the world is simply embarrassing to the church, and so prompt them to back our of their dispensational cul-desac. Hank Hanegraaff's The Apocalypse Code may well be the answer. I cannot recommend this book highly enough."

hmm...I don't know about the non-jewish tone to Revelation...I have read no commentary on Revelation (not even the notes on the bottome of my study Bibles...yet :) ) I believe it is a Jewish book b/c the language...and some of the promises (fulfilled) refered to in Revelation were promises made to the Jews and not the church (although we will take part in them as we have been grafted in, but we (the Church) are by no means the Israel the promises were given to back in the OT). And from the Biblical interp. study courses I am taking and books I am reading would confirm by the usage of language that Rev. would be Jewish book.
Again I could be wrong and I beg God to humble my heart to hear his truth.
Maybe I am running ahead of myself in my thinking...I guess I just wanted to see where this brother (he is a part of the Bretheren movement...side note) got this view, b/c he was teaching it emphatically.
Again Thanks a ton brothers
Thom

The new testament dispensation makes no distinction of nationality, but honors all who call upon the name of Jesus.

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

The first verse of Revelation clearly states that the book is for ALL His servants not just the Jews.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Peoples other than Jews are indicated here, and in may other verses.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Blessings Greg ;-)

greetings dear saints in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro Moe

Revelations says one will be blessed by reading the book. The biggest blessing I could think of is missing all that tribulation.

it seems to me the Revelation was written to the Believers, that is Christians that we may know what is to come before our Lord returns. This book concerned the early Church who believed that those things were upon them and conducted themselves as such. We are to do the same. If indeed the Church was not to be here in those days, then why write the book? The Church is not to be whisked away out of the trib and great trib, i believe the Church will be [i][b]preserved through[/b][/i] it. The matter of persecution for the early Church was an every day thing, if these saints suffered at the beginning, how much more will we be called to endure suffering now that we are at the end? We have also the testimonies in the scriptures of these saints who endured patiently and fainted not because God Preserved them through it all. We have evidence from other texts and compilations of the lives of these saints which prove to us God's ability to Preserve us in the midst of persecution and suffering...do we think the Arm of God is too short to preserve us even now? Dear saints let us not be so foolish! Dear saints i implore you to consider this, the Judgments which shall befall the earth are from God to the unrepentant, if we are Saved, what have we to fear? God will not pour boils on us or cause us to drink blood because we are His own and He will take care of us through it all. Yes the enemy and his minions will be very angry and persecute us, some of us will die as a result but if the Grace of God was sufficient for Peter, Paul, James, Andrew and all the others who suffered for His Sake, then surely such Grace is sufficient for me and it ought to be enough for us all!

the biggest blessing in reading the Revelation is the Joy, Peace and Confidence which comes from the Certainty of the return of our Lord to take His Throne and to Judge and of course to gather us to Himself. Dear saints we read all the plagues and things which must precede this and think we will partake in it and we won't, not because we won't be here, but because God will preserve us through it all.

i fear that the whole issue of making Israel as she is now, the fulfilment of what was spoken through Ezekiel is in error. i feel also that the idea of being raptured out of here is a reflection of what we would do if we were God so that people would like us. it is also an indictment of how poor our view of God is as Judge also and Perfector of our Faith. Saints our Lord doesn't take in junk, He makes sure that what is drawn to Him is Purified thoroughly by fire and while the Trib is a period of Judgment on the enemy and we are not partakers of this, it is for us a period of purification and proving what manner of Christian we are. it is easy to be a Christian when all is well, but when the heat is on is when the true depth of our Faith is revealed and i fear that many among us will be found wanting and fall away from the Faith. i fear that the great falling away Paul spoke of has to do with this notion of Israel now being prophecy fulfilled (an Examination of Ezekiel 36 will show that this is not the case, too many things have yet to occur which should have occured already) and the idea of being raptured out of here. When these things fail, i believe we will see the great falling away. Paul himself makes it plain that the coming of Christ will not be secret but all men will see it and the revelation of the man of sin must precede it which means the Church is yet here. i am convinced that the rapture if it is to happen the way it is commonly said it will, will involve far less numbers than we think , or that the rapture (i lean toward this more) is at His return at the end of the outpouring of the Bowls of Judgment of the Father.

Dear saints i may well be wrong and if i am i pray God set me straight because i don't want to languish in deception. if you are wrong i pray God do the same. May God set us straight!AMEN.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Reply
I dwell in the mist of the furnace of earthly tribulation today but I being dead live in spiritual peace and joy in Christ.

I believe the “GREAT TRIBULATION”has passed and the body of Christ was delivered out of the pangs.

If you live outside the body of Christ in darkness there will always be gashing of teeth.

Eddie

Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!!!

The Revelation of Christ is written to the church. HIS first warnings are to the seven Christian churches in Asia. After that the Lord does NOT say and now the rest of this doesn't apply to Christians.

In fact as we see in the book of Romans we are in fact spiritual Jews.

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

So yes the Book of Revelation is written to Jews "who are by faith saved by Christ"

And yes it is written in the Jewish Apocolyptic style.

To sum up the entire book is written to the church. It is Gods final word and warning to man to repent.

Hisservant rich

Thanks...but what do we do with the prophecies to Israel in the OT that were never fulfilled? I come at the Scriptures with the grammatical-historical approach..and last night I read Zephaniah...What do I do with that entire book?
:) I guess I kinda changed the subject on my own q :)

dear saints

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i think it is important to note that not all Israel are the seed of Abraham so not all Jews will be Saved and also like sis Dorcas said, the blessings are with conditions. There also remains a distinct destiny or work which God must do for Israel (in her state of being Saved that is) and Jews (who are Saved) which can't be done through Gentiles. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile as far as Salvation goes but just as surely as the destiny which God has written for me can't be fulfilled by say sister Dorcas, those things which pertain to Israel can't be fulfilled by Gentiles. There are some things yet which haven't been fulfilled such as in Zechariah, the cutting off of 2/3 of the Jews and the purification of the remainder, the destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 14 as it pertains to the restoration of Israel to her former borders not the sliver of land she is on now. The original land extends all the way to Damascus. This means that the Ezekiel 36 planting of Israel in the land has yet to be fulfilled. bro Katz spoke about this in some of his sermons and wrote of this also. If we read Ezekiel 36 we can see that there are some things about Israel now which haven't been fulfilled yet.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

hmm...I don't know about the non-jewish tone to Revelation...I have read no commentary on Revelation (not even the notes on the bottome of my study Bibles...yet :) ) I believe it is a Jewish book b/c the language...

and some of the promises (fulfilled) refered to in Revelation were promises made to the Jews and not the church (although we will take part in them as we have been grafted in, but we (the Church) are by no means the Israel the promises were given to back in the OT).

And from the Biblical interp. study courses I am taking and books I am reading would confirm by the usage of language that Rev. would be Jewish book.

God Bless.

I've read
hermeneutics by Virkler
Protestant Bib...by Ram
Interp. Bible ...Mickelson
Knowing Scripture...Sproul
Interp Holy Scripture...Dunnett
Also listened to the Herm. Course on Biblical Training and started one on another webite 3bible.com

I really really am trying to learn how to read Scripture with few presuppositions...

Also are there any other books like Hanks. I have listened to him a bunch but lately his arrogance and pride beams louder than his words, and I can't handle it. I read his Christianity in Crisis and was blessed. But upon listening to him (in the last two weeks even) his arrogance really really urks me. I am open to listening to any stand point or view, but I prefer to listen to people who shine like Christ, and it is of my opinion that Mr. Hannegraff seemed to have abandoned the humble nature of Christ

In Him
Thom

I understand what you mean about the humble nature of Christ. I personally have not listened to many Bible Answer Man programs and do not personally see an arrogance in Mr. Hanegraaff, I do understand that some bible teachers give off an 'I know more than you do' attitude.

Try [url=http://www.amazon.com/s/102-9906651-7724115?ie=UTF8&tag=mozilla-20&index=blended&link%5Fcode=qs&field-keywords=gary%20demar&sourceid=Mozilla-search]Gary DeMar.[/url]

Also, I have not read Knowing Scripture by Sproul, but I have heard that it is a great book to help understand scripture and its various forms. Basically, we read the Bible as we would any other book. A narrative section should be read literally, a prophesy section should be read to understand the symbols, etc.

Provost wrote:
I was talking to a brother who was telling me that no gentiles will be saved during the Trib. Now I know that Revelation is a Jewish book, the Church is rarely mentioned after the first five chapters. But I not only do not see his view in Scripture, but I see Scripture that I believe contradict this mans theory (Revelation 7). SO I was just wondering where this view is found? [ Or where it originated?

Thom,

I believe it was started simply because of the statement that the Prophecies say specifically that a remnant of Israel will survive the Trib.

Consequently, by rather blind assumption, they believe that no one else does.

In actuality, there will be many gentiles who do not believe who make it through to the Millenium. Some will simply take one look at Governmental control, and go into the deep forests, and survive...that is why so many are survivalists today...many have been to church, may have heard the views, may not believe in Christ, but won't submit to a government.

But everyone becomes a believer in Jesus at the end of the Trib, when they see Him, in all His Glory, accompanied by all of us.

Unfortunately, a lot of the survivors will have the mark, and be seperated out at the Lambs/Goats judgement.

Although I believe everyone must come to their own belief about the end of days, I myself have become a Pre-wrath believer.

If any Christians, whether Jew or Gentile by birth, make to the time just before the Vial judgements, it is my belief that Jesus will pull us out at that time, because the last thing He wants is a lot of tried and true believers, who survived the devil's machinations, and still believed, to enter into the Millenium.

For that, He needs only a remnant, and whatever gentile stragglers come out of the hills when all the shooting is over. Those with the mark...well, they won't be around very long.

Blessings,

Forrest

It seems that whenever Christians deal with the subject of Israel they always tend to lean toward two extremes.

On the one hand we have Replacement Theology, which says the Church has replaced Israel's position totally so that all promises (only the good ones) given to Israel apply now to the Church. Israel is seen as purely spiritual and no longer physical.

The other extreme is to reject Replacement Theology and embrace Dispensationalism, which basically makes Israel and the Church two completely separate entities without any relation to each other in respect to promises and destinies. This is just as false as Replacement Theology.

The truth is there is BOTH a grafting in of the Gentiles into the root of Abraham which makes the Church both Jew and Gentile without distinction, and there is also Israel as a physical nation to whom God still has a covenant with that He intends to keeps. I believe the confusion comes when we think that all Israel was cast off. The Bible doesn't say this, it rather says that SOME OF THE BRANCHES were cast off. Paul was living proof that God had not finished with His people, physical Israel. Some of them had rejected Jesus (most of them) but not all of them, and in doing so this enabled the Gentiles to be grafted into the commonwealth of Israel. God's covenant still remains with physical Israel, when those who have been cut off will once again be grafted BACK INTO the same root from which they were cut and to which the Gentiles are enjoying: the Church. In the end, all Israel will be saved, and the Church will be complete, one new man in Christ Jesus.

So it is not one extreme or the other. There is the Church consisting of Jews and Gentiles with no racial distinction; this is the Israel of God, which is the household of faith. But there is also physical Israel, the nation, to which God's covenant still stands. When Jesus Christ returns He will pour out the Spirit of grace and supplication upon THIS nation, and so all Israel shall be saved.

God bless,
-Eli

i thank God i don't struggle with this conflict of Israel vs. Christian ... :-P

The way i see it is as the two marriges of heaven ... God the Father's marriage to Israel, as outlined in the OT from Genesis to Malachi toward the birthing of their Son Jesus Christ into the world that he may become the Lamb slain before the founding of the world as means to taking away the sins of even the gentiles in fulfilment of God's promise to Abraham ...

Gen.26
[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

i'm sure Abraham had no idea that this promise over mellenia would entail his begetting numbering as the stars of heaven, seeds of both natural (Israel) and spiritual (Christians including so called Messianic Jews) sons and daughter who would become heirs to the promise God the Father gave him ...

Seems this marriage has it's ups and downs along the corridors of time ... God the Father is always faithful to her, she not so much to Him to the point that He had Hosea written to tell us how He feels about her adulteries, with this one outstanding point made clear in the culmination of the book: God the Father doesn't believe in divorce, and that tells me that even after Christ came into His ministry and upset their apple cart to the point that they really went left field on Him, He's still not thru with her in that the Bible shows us He's still dealing with, and protecting her, even after the 1,000 year reign of Christ when satan is released once more, and he makes a bee-line (via many of the same nations that hate them even now) straight toward them again! ...

How any saint today can believe that Israel has been replaced by us the Church in it's marriage to God the Father is beyond me, as we as Christians (including so called Messianic Jews) are not God the Father's Bride - but God the Son's - we whom even Christ said His Father GAVE TO HIM ... And then there is the glaring WARNING of Romans 11 to we (Christians) who are grafted in, even to the mind blowing explanation (which admittedly is as much beyond my spiritual grasp of understanding as Romans 9) that God darkened Israels spiritual senses so that we could even be grafted in in the first place ..

[b]Rom.11
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.[/b]

This phrase really sticks out to me "wise in your own conceits (excessive appreciation of one's own worth or virtue)" ... OUCH!!!

Here's a link to an article that i think very informative on this subject ...

[b]The Seed of Abraham: Children of the Covenants[/b]
http://www.awarenessministry.org/abraham.htm

which at it's end includes this very simple yet ointed statement ... [b]"Let Israel be Israel and the Church be the Church".[/b]

Quoted from: Conclusion ...

"The controversy between the two polarized theologies of "Replacement" and "Continuation" can be resolved. Let Israel be Israel and the Church be the Church. There is no conflict. We must permit the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel to apply to both the Christian Church and the nation of Israel. This is Abraham's dual posterity, it is his natural and spiritual seed coexisting in the earth. God will, in due process, bring them both into His perfect will. Does God want His natural seed to become spiritual seed? Of course He does. Will it happen? We have God's word on it"

"...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Romans 11:25-27).

God works uniquely with the nation of Israel as with no other nation on earth. The Church must accept this, seek to understand it and assume its proper role in the divine strategy of their restoration and redemption.

God does not love the Jewish people beyond other nations of the earth. However, the Church must be a channel through which the Jewish people will receive the "mercy" which has been so long denied them by the nations of the world:

"Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy" (Romans 11:31 KJV).

As the tide of world opinion flows against the Jews, the Christian believer must stand in the gap and compensate for our failures of the past to do so.

The spiritual seed of Abraham are under obligation to bless the natural seed. It was the Jews who blessed the nations with God's plan of salvation. Jesus said:

"...for salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22 NIV).

There is a sense in which Abraham was the father of salvation because Christ was the seed of Abraham. The Covenant of Abraham and the Covenant of Grace constitute God's redemptive plan.

The good news is that a fresh awakening to truth is taking place and many believers are getting a new vision of God's covenantal relationship to the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. If the Church must emphasize a "Replacement Theology" let it be one which declares the prophetic "re-placement" of all their land into the hands of its rightful owners, the Jews. Ultimately we shall rejoice to see both the land and the people restored to the eternal purposes of God and to participate in the full and complete reconciliation between Israel and the Church, Abraham's natural and spiritual seed (Ephesians 2:14). This is what God is working to achieve. LET US WORK WITH HIM. So who are "THE SEED OF ABRAHAM?" Can there be any doubt?"

Yo Doc you wrote;

"i think it is important to note that not all Israel are the seed of Abraham so not all Jews will be Saved "

--- When you say "not all Israel are the seed of Abraham" are you talking about by lineage, or the actual make up of the present day nation of Israel? ... and when you say "so not all Jews will be Saved" how do you stack your statement up against ...

Rom.
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This latter question i ask because i've really never understood this "saving" passage especially, and by your statement you seem to have some insight that escapes me ... It doesn't seem that you think God the Father is saying this saving of Israel to be literally to every man, woman and child from time in memorial as i don't either because surely a Jew who rejects Christ now and dies is bound for hell just like everyone else, so do you think this is for a future God appointed time from when it arrives every Jew shall be saved from then on, or do you think the passage is just figurative? ...

Bottom line ... What's your take on this passage? ---

PS - Anyone else is welcome to comment, i just posed the ?'s to bro. Ironman because of his statement ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus all! ...

and there is also Israel as a physical nation to whom God still has a covenant with that He intends to keeps.

Which covenant is that? It cannot be the covenant made with Abraham because that was made to Abraham and his Seed--which is Christ. Everyone who is in Christ is a child of Abraham and a heir of the promise. (Gal. 3).

It cannot be the New Covenant because that is through Jesus Christ as well.

There is no other covenant. Search the scriptures, God has no 'other covenant' with the nation of Israel.

JaySaved,

You've forgotten that God made two covenants with Abraham... actually, one when he was yet Abram, and the other when he was Abraham.

The covenant I am talking about that still stands today is the land covenant to which God promised Abraham and He has never broken it nor ever will break it with the nation of Israel. See in Psalm 105:8-11,

[i]"[b]He hath remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.[/b]

Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

[b]And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant[/b]:

Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance."[/i]

This covenant stands today. If you are saying otherwise, then God has broken His word, which is impossible. There was no condition on this covenant. He promised it, He will fulfill it, forever.

Hi Linn,

This Scripture from Ezekiel is a millennial promise, which will be fulfilled when Jesus returns to turn again the backslidden Jewish nation. The Church today only has a foretaste of the fulfillment of this prophesy. It also said elsewhere that no one will need to say "Know the Lord" because everyone will know Him. This has not been fulfilled yet, but will be fulfilled once Israel as a nation is redeemed and the knowledge of God fills the whole earth.

I don't see faith as a condition for earning anything but, maybe for simply receiving it. For instance, a father might tell his little son that he just bought a whole bucket of ice-cream and it is sitting in the kitchen just waiting to be devoured... the boy didn't do anything to earn it, the father did this unconditionally because he loves the child. But if the son doesn't believe then he won't go into the kitchen and eat it. So the GIVING of the ice-cream is entirely free and unconditional, but the boy's RECEIVING of it is dependent upon his faith in his father's truthfulness. So in this sense I do not see faith as a condition or a work required for salvation, or God's covenant. However, without faith we do not inherit the promises for the obvious reason.

But remember that God's covenant is with the nation of Israel, and though a whole generation of individuals fell in the desert, God did not break covenant with the nation. I believe that even Israel's blindness and unbelief, when removed, will be a sovereign act of God and not something that they themselves accomplished.

Hope that makes sense,
-Eli

Sis Dorcas you wrote ...

After all, unbelief is why the Hebrews didn't enter the land after Egypt the first time....

Isn't it? ...

--- Amen - that generation did'nt ... But once they had died off the new generation after did ...

Didn't they? ...

i truly believe that many a saint may be most sincere in their beliefs about these arguments against the Jews, as i also believe them to stem out of as God Himself said via Paul a perhaps misguided, but nevertheless "conciet" ...

i won't argue with anyone who still wants to discard Israel as still importand to God the Father, because if Romans 11 can't get thru the blindness nothing i say ever could ... That would be as futile as continuing to debate the reason for this thread in the first place, past Rev. 7 ... Apparently such "replacement" thinking had already cropped up it's ugly vileness straight from the pit of hell in Paul's time, and so God the Father had to address it directly ...

[i][b][color=0066FF] Lord God a pastor once prayed a similar prayer for me when i couldn't see past what Scripture was obviously saying and You granted it ... So i'm asking You to please knock the scales from anyone's eyes regarding this matter in the reading of the following passages which You inspired the Apostle Paul to write ... In the precious name of Jesus, and by power and might of Holy Spirit i petition ... Amen ...[/color][/b][/i]

How much plainer can this be? ...

[b][color=CC3300]Rom. 11[/color][/b]
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that [b][color=CC3300]blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.[/color][/b]
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] [b][color=CC3300]For this is my COVENANT unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, THEY ARE BELOVED FOR THE FATHER'S SAKE.
[29] FOR THE GIFTS AND CALLING OF GOD ARE WITHOUT REPENTANCE. [/color][/b]

You keep putting the onus of the covenant being kept on Israel and their treatment of God, when the onus of the covenant is on God Himself because of His choosing them in the first place ...

To me Israel's condition is not much different than Rom. 9 to we saints as being predestined and called ... Is this predistination based on the onus of how we willeth, or runneth, or is it based on God that sheweth mercy to whomever He pleases, however He pleases to His own glory? ...

[b][color=CC3300] Rom.9[/color][/b]
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Is God the Father finished with the Jew, with Israel? ... According to Romans 11, and the fact that the events of the Revelation yet future is still hinged on them, i'd say scripture says no ...

I'm done ... As i said ... it don't get no plainer than the following ...

[b][color=CC3300] Rom.11
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. [/color][/b]

bro Rahman
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

When you say "not all Israel are the seed of Abraham" are you talking about by lineage, or the actual make up of the present day nation of Israel? ... and when you say "so not all Jews will be Saved" how do you stack your statement up against ...

it is both. Not everyone who is called a Jew is a child of the Promise that God made to Abraham. To be a Jew in the sense of the Promise is something beyond what we see in modern Jewry even from when Christ came. The makeup of Israel as she is now includes some of the children of the Promise and some which are not. There is Election among the Jews also unto Salvation.so it is not every man, woman and child who is a Jew that will be Saved but rather those Elected.

from Romans 9

[b]6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[/b]

now for the scripture you quoted, the reference is to all those of Israel who had been Elected to Salvation much like how the word says that God wishes all men to be Saved and so he tarries and this is a reference to the Elect and the bringing in of every Soul called to Salvation. In this sense then ALL Israel (every man woman and child Elected to Salvation) will indeed be saved because not one soul among the Elect (Jew or Gentile) will be lost. we know the scriptures are literal concerning this and i believe this view of seeing that not all are Abraham's seed of the Promise (not all are ISrael that are of Israel) but of those that are (the seed of the Promise) all Israel will be Saved as you brought up.

hope that clears it up.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

i hope that answers you question

The children of Abraham were a separate segment of Hebrews that saw spiritually as King David did.

There was a different segment of the Hebrews that lived in Judea that believed in works and self righteousness in the time of Christ and they crucified our Lord.

Jerusalem built on Holy Mount Zion was the great spiritual Babylonian whore that killed the Prophets and our Christ and was totally destroyed as Our Lord prophesied.

So the question I pose to each of you, are you ministering to The Body Of Christ and teaching the laws of The kingdom of God, or have you rejected the Chief Conner Stone and teaching works and the same self righteousness confusion that is being taught in Synagogues and Mosques.
Eddie

Matthew 21
40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Eli wrote:

You've forgotten that God made two covenants with Abraham... actually, one when he was yet Abram, and the other when he was Abraham.

Any and all promises/covenants made to Abram/Abraham were made to him and to His Seed. Not Seeds, but Seed which is Christ. (Gal 3:15-16)

Also, the land was just a foretaste of a better land. The area of Palestine is not the fulfillment of the promise, but a temporary stay. Look at Hebrews 11
13These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

I realize I need to be more clear. My apologies.

Linn, let's just look at Ezekiel 11 again in context:

[i]"Eze 11:17 So tell them, 'This is what the Almighty LORD says: [u]I will bring them together from the nations and gather them from the countries where I've scattered them. I will give them the land of Israel.[/u]
Eze 11:18 They will come and remove all the disgusting and detestable things that are there.
Eze 11:19 I will give them a single purpose and put a new spirit in them. I will remove their stubborn hearts and give them obedient hearts.
Eze 11:20 Then they will live by my laws and obey my rules. They will be my people, and I will be their God."[/i]

Verse 17 reveals to us this whole passage is speaking about the final regathering of the scattered Jewish nation. This passage is also a parallel with Jeremiah 31:31-34 on the New Covenant. Yet the context in Jeremiah also has to do with the regathering and spiritual restoration of the entire nation.

It's here where I need to clarify myself though. Both of these passages are indeed speaking of the New Covenant which we are in fact currently partaking of, as Hebrews 8:8 certifies. However, if I may, what I am saying is is that we are right now not experiencing the fullness of this covenanted blessing, or else why would Jesus be required to return? There is still redemptive work to be done. I cannot agree that Ezekiel 11 has been fulfilled IN ITS FULLNESS because Israel as a nation is still apostate as they are the primary subject of the prophecy. As Paul tells us in Romans 11, when the nation is revived the world is revived; redeemed Israel shall usher in the millennial Kingdom. Only then will no man say "know the Lord" for everyone shall know the Lord. This simply has not yet been fulfilled.

God is not done with His people. [i]"Jacob is the lot of His inheritance."[/i] (Deuteronomy 32:9) It is important that we do not forget that the Gentiles have been grafted in so to [b]provoke Israel to jealousy.[/b] This is one of the great mysteries of the Bible. We Gentiles are currently experiencing the blessings of having the new heart of the New Covenant, but one day "all Israel" shall be grafted BACK in to experience Jehovah's salvation as well. Thus the prophecy is only partially fulfilled.

I apologize for my poor explanation of faith and conditions... What I really wanted to emphasize was that the New Covenant is something that God does entirely on His own so that no man can boast. [i]"I will... I will... I will..."[/i] is repeated by God several times because under the Old Covenant we simply could not. The Law was our schoolmaster to point us to Christ. Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. Faith is a RELIEF from the Law, from works. Faith itself is not a "work". Faith is resting from dead works. It's no longer "Do this and you shall live", but believe I have done it ALL. My fault for explaining myself so poorly.

I love you too, sister. I'm just saying that to exclude the nation of Israel from the picture is to only see half the painting.

I'm going to continue answering your second post in my next response. God bless!
-Eli

sis Dorcas
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Indeed sis D, Israel is not being let off the hook as far as compliance to the statutes of God. At the same time however, that Israel transgresses (as do we in our own Covenant) gives God opportunity to show Mercy and extend Grace so this can be said: from Ezekiel 36:

[b]16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.[/b][b]21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. [/b]

sis D, it's not about Israel complying so much in the final analysis, it's all about God and His Name's Sake. Sure there are consequences for transgressions but ultimately it all rests on God. We would do well to seek Him on the Gravity of that. Just like we transgress the statutes of this Covenant, we receive Mercy and Grace from on High for His own Name's Sake and not our own. Incidentally Ezekiel 36 is yet to be fulfilled and that was a promise made to Israel. i believe that it speaks of Israel coming to the realization of Jesus as Messiah which will usher in the Promises which God has made concerning being restored to the land given Abraham, the rebuilding of the Temple for it's role in the end times and so on. In that regard, Israel is not exempt from being Saved by Faith, that is the same Faith which Abraham had and so this is the Truth of there being no Jew or Gentile in Christ. Now there remains a distinction in as much as there are things which God will work out through Israel and through the Gentiles which can't be done by the other group just like there are things which God will do in your life and through your life which i can't do because i'm not you and vice versa. This is part of why Paul said that we ought not boast against the branches (and i fear that part of this whole discussion under the guise whether we know it or not of trying to be dead on with scipture could boil down to boasting against the natural branches.) because God is not yet done with Israel in terms of bringing the Elect from Israel to Salvation and fulfilling what He had Purposed to do through Israel in and through their coming to Salvation.

I realise it's popular to determine some of these promises on the nation of Israel separately from faith and separately from the Church, but I don't see it. I see Israel as His intended bride, who unless she makes herself ready on His terms, will be rejected in the end.

indeed it is and i have heard that sort of thing from bro Hagee and some others and it's wrong. Israel and the promises made to her which remain unfulfilled await God working her over to bring her to Salvation. so it is not so much a matter of her preparing herself because she can't do it, it is God Himself who will make her ready.

So, when in the OT there is a promise of calling the Israelites back to 'the land' there is a sense that either the land of Israel is going to be the 'whole earth', or, that people who come to faith - wherever they are in the world - and whether they are gentile or Jew\\Israel - is where (geographically) they will inherit God.

Indeed there is a broader context to the calling back into the land beyond Israel being returned to the land, such is the Nature of Scripture. however let us not forget also that Israel also refers to Jewry specifically and that those promises God made stand for them because if they don't, then we have no promise to lay claim to. by Jewry i am talking about those Elected to Salvation.

Note that God was under the impression He had brought Israel to Himself. He knew that Israel (Jacob) had so wanted His blessing, that he'd bartered it away from its original owner. Did Israel's descendants want God enough to receive the same gift out of God's bounty to Jacob?

i believe Jacob was the only owner of the blessing which was given him. Esau was rejected before the 2 of them could do anything so Esau gave away the blessing because God rejected him beforehand. i don't think Israel wanted God enough to receive what Jacob did...however perhaps we ought to consider how much God wanted to [i][b]give[/b][/i] Israel what He had given to Jacob?

Now, that covenant they broke. Can we agree?

they did, but so do we. The question i am concerned about is now, ok so we have broken the covenant and failed at holding up our end of the bargain, will God fail at holding up His end? i suppose i place my hope that He will hold up His end and be for me all that is required to hold up my end of it...after all only He is Sufficient for such things because He is Sufficiency.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro Jay

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Any and all promises/covenants made to Abram/Abraham were made to him and to His Seed. Not Seeds, but Seed which is Christ.

yes indeed, but is Christ not the firstborn among many sons? are we not co-heirs then with Him sharing in these Promises? the way i see it is that Israel remains with a distinct destiny which can only be fulfilled upon coming to Salvation in Christ, in that regard there is yet a distinction, but there is none as it pertains to Salvation hence Paul says there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ.

Also, the land was just a foretaste of a better land. The area of Palestine is not the fulfillment of the promise, but a temporary stay.

yes the land of Palestine was a foretaste of what God had promised in a sense, at the same time too, that land was promised to Israel (which we are grafted into) so it is not excluded from the fulfilment of the promise but remains a part of it. The context of the scipture you quoted bro, i believe is far broader than we perceive at present.Yes indeed those spoken of in Hebrews awaited what God had prepared for them and the land was not the total fulfilment of that promise but it was a part of it, they wanted the whole shabang which is the Heavenly City and the land on earth also because from Ezekiel 36 on we see a placing back of Israel into the land and David ruling over them, that is Jesus Christ. So the Heavenly country is not just Heaven as in Heaven up there but heaven on earth, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? something to consider perhaps?

of late our Lord has had me on this thing about the Manifold Nature of Scripture. Scripture is an interesting thing. it's context is not only immediate or pertaining to that instant but is Eternal because God is Eternal, this is why it never gets old and lessons from ages past remain ever-relevant. The more i am quickened to this, the more i can see the many facets of Truth which God has shown to you all and can put them together kinda like a big jigsaw puzzle to have a fuller view of what the word of God is saying. i pray that makes sense brethren, these last few wks have been jaw-dropping for me in the Lord because of this. i see scipture in a different light...or lights as it were. Man to see the word from the Perspective of the Father through His Holy Spirit is a whole different trip and it is only by His Grace and Mercy in spite of my constant bungling that i have found this spring...drinking deeply...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

I don't agree that the root is Abraham.

This also needs clarification. When I said the root was Abraham, I was referring to Galatians 3:6-9,

[i]"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [b]Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham[/b]. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. [b]So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham[/b]."[/i]

I remember having a discussion about this very topic on Sermonindex about a year ago. The issue I am contending is that the root spoken of in Romans 11 is the Abrahamic promise, the blessing through Abraham, which is Christ. I think we would agree it is Christ, but I'm only saying that the promise of Jesus Christ is that of the Abraham Covenant, and thus that is what the root is. Therefore all those of faith are the children of Abraham, those who believe in Messiah. I'm pretty sure we agree on this point, it was a misunderstanding of wording... correct?

Romans 11:17 states that SOME of the branches were broken off. Verse 25 says that blindness IN PART has happened to Israel. Back in verse 11 Paul makes it clear that they did not stumble that they should fall. Israel stumbled, but they were not ground to powder (see Matthew 21:44). God is not through with the Jewish people, though some of them have stumbled at Christ. The promises still remain toward them that they shall once again be grafted in (as a nation). Currently the Church, the Abrahamic root, is full of wild Gentile branches, but Israel, the natural branches, shall in the future be brought into this glorious salvation originally promised to them. Then, when we are in Christ, we are one new man, neither Jew nor Gentile.

I won't get into Ephesians 2 right now, but I see that Ephesians 2 strongly reaffirms what I have been saying. Verse 12 is speaking to the Gentiles who were once alienated from the promises OF ISRAEL. If you flip the verse upside-down it basically states that Israel indeed had Christ (as an anticipatory foreshadow), had the covenants of promise, had hope, and had God in this world (see also Romans 9:4-5). From this some of them have been temporarily cast out and the Gentiles have been brought in to benefit from the root, but as the Scripture says they shall be grafted in again. The entire second chapter of Ephesians is a wonderful description of the Church, both Jew and Gentile, who make up the household of faith, the habitation of God.

How shall the nation be saved? The same way we have been saved: through the blood of Jesus Christ alone. When shall this be fulfilled? When they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son on that great and final day of the Lord.

Hebrews 8
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

What are the Biblical Lawyers arguing? That the Jews kept the covenant and should be restored to their land for the fourth time? Should God take the priesthood from His Son and give it to them?

No thanks. We believe the witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Christians are the celestial children of Abraham that The Seed blessed and the only Covenant in force to day was written in the blood of the Son of God. We admit that we have no homeland and are seeking a city.

Those seeking to hold the children in bondage today need to enforce the covenants of works and sacrifice They would have you return to a covenant of sacrifice, ministered by themselves to keep the meek and humble in bondage to mens traditions in Col. 2:8, tradition refers to the arbitrary interpretations of the Jews but it applies today as well..

8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19. And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21. (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22. Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23. Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Eddie

Ironman,

yes indeed, but is Christ not the firstborn among many sons? are we not co-heirs then with Him sharing in these Promises? the way i see it is that Israel remains with a distinct destiny which can only be fulfilled upon coming to Salvation in Christ, in that regard there is yet a distinction, but there is none as it pertains to Salvation hence Paul says there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ.

Christ is the firstborn among many brethren and we are co-heirs sharing in these promises. But the promises were made to Christ. We just share in the promises. Unbelieving Israel does not have a distinct destiny now that the New Covenant is here. In the OT times there were Gentiles and Jews, now there are unbelievers and believers.

yes the land of Palestine was a foretaste of what God had promised in a sense, at the same time too, that land was promised to Israel (which we are grafted into) so it is not excluded from the fulfilment of the promise but remains a part of it. The context of the scipture you quoted bro, i believe is far broader than we perceive at present.Yes indeed those spoken of in Hebrews awaited what God had prepared for them and the land was not the total fulfilment of that promise but it was a part of it, they wanted the whole shabang which is the Heavenly City and the land on earth also because from Ezekiel 36 on we see a placing back of Israel into the land and David ruling over them, that is Jesus Christ. So the Heavenly country is not just Heaven as in Heaven up there but heaven on earth, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? something to consider perhaps?

Let's consider two places for a moment. First the land of Palestine. Second a new heaven and a new earth. How many people do you know that would prefer Palestine? Palestine--while a literal place--is used as a symbol and a type of a better land that is promised to Abraham and his Seed--which is Christ and all who are in Christ.

Thanks Doc ...

i believe i've got the gist of this now ... our convo last nite was of the greatest help ... Thank You Lord Jesus! ...
:-D

Sis Dorcas you wrote ...

"First Rahman, I thought you and I are on the same page...? "

--- Forgive me sis but actually i think i shouldn't even had gotten involved in this ... It's way over my head all this talk of covenants, and them being binding and/or non binding depending on what the second party (man) does ... i guess it'd be easier for me to understand if the contracts we're between men and men, but when their between our perfect and infinite God (The first party who presented the contracts in the first place, and whom on His end says they're everlasting), and imperfect and finite men (The poor wretched second party whom He already knows is way lacking in being able to uphold the bargain) that throws a curve at me that intellectually i can't grasp, but spiritually i can hold on to and believe in anyway by faith ... i guess in my ignorance i expect more out of God in upholding His end of covenants than i do men (tho God knows i try to do my part), because He's so much bigger and abler than me to keep them ... Only a loving God would strike such a one sided (way more to our benefit it seems than to His) bargains with such wretches as ourselves ...

So bless God sis that you see us as being on the same page, because from my apparent lower position of understanding on this subject i don't even see us as being in the same book :-P ... As with the little emotican you used with the dark glasses, i guess you can see my eyes (where i'm coming from) on this subject - but i can't see yours ... So ...

[b][color=0066FF]Lord God if i'm ignorant of something that i should know about what's being discussed on this thread then please knock the scales from my eyes that i may see as clearly as sis Dorcas ... In the precious name of Jesus, and by power and might of Holy Spirit i petition ... Amen ...[/color][/b]

So no matter - because if all this is is a discussion, and not a concieted (excessive appreciation of one's own worth or virtue - usually at the expense of another) bashing, beat down, or a sort of standing on the neck of the beleguered Jew (Israel) then i bow out, and will just follow the thread as it continues and learn, because the afore mentioned is my primary concern ...

[b][color=CC3300]Rom.11: 11 - says: "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."[/color][/b] ... What i pray for for myself (and all other saints) is that Christ will shine in me/us in such a way as to draw the Jew toward salvation in Him ... i think history shows that we've done a pretty good job of provoking them to "anger" and "rejection", even amongst those now saved ...

Oh ... one last point that hit me ... You said;

"Note that God was under the impression He had brought Israel to Himself."

--- i don't think our all knowing God is ever under an "impression" ... i think that's our realm ... He always knows for sure ...

Bless you sis in the wonderful light of our calling! ...
:knockedout:

bro Jay

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said in your last post:

Christ is the firstborn among many brethren and we are co-heirs sharing in these promises. But the promises were made to Christ. We just share in the promises. Unbelieving Israel does not have a distinct destiny now that the New Covenant is here. In the OT times there were Gentiles and Jews, now there are unbelievers and believers.

i would say that the promises being made to Christ are made to us also as we share in them with Him. Now the word seed could be singular or plural and i think it is important to consider that perhaps in the scripture concerning the promise it is not one nor the other but both, Singular in that Christ is the one to whom the Promise is made but Plural also in that we share in it also at the same time. Something to consider perhaps?A broader Context than we may perceive?

The destiny of unbelieving Israel, that is those Jew which don't come to Christ is eternal damnation, end of story.i wasn't talking about a unique Destiny for unbelieving Israel but for believing Israel. However, for those that are Elected by God to Salvation as we have been have a Destiny which God has written for them which involves the 144000 for example, the temple and some other things which can't be fulfilled by us as Gentiles. it's along the same lines that you brother Jay have a Destiny written for you by God which can be fulfilled by you and not me and vice versa. We are both Saved by Grace yet our destinies remain distinct just as our experiences are unique and make us different.

Let's consider two places for a moment. First the land of Palestine. Second a new heaven and a new earth. How many people do you know that would prefer Palestine? Palestine--while a literal place--is used as a symbol and a type of a better land that is promised to Abraham and his Seed--which is Christ and all who are in Christ.

bro Jay indeed Palestine is a type of something better which is to come and i see your point. do you see mine though that Palestine and the land given to Abraham is not separate from the Better Land but is a [i][b]part[/b][/i] of it. Heaven is not some place in the wild blue yonder which we are waiting to go to, we are there even now in a real sense and yet in a real sense we await His return to take us there. Paul says we are seated in Heavenly Places with Christ...not later on but [i][b]now[/b][/i]. i don't know exactly how many people would like Palestine now to be the fulfilment of this promise, i imagine it would be as many as can make a bunch of money off of that. All the same the lands given Abraham will be given back to Israel as fulfilment of the Promise. The Better land is Heaven and earth, including where Israel is with the addition of Jordan Syria, Lebanon and some others, not at this momement but soon enough. i would ask bro Jay, when we pray the "Our Father" what does it mean to ask that His Kingdom come or His will be done on earth as in Heaven? that to me is a translation of what is in the Heavens to the Earth so if the land of Heaven is ours, then isn't the earth ours also? didn't Christ say the meek shall inherit the earth? it seems to me that whatever occurs in Heaven is translated on earth somehow and so if the Better land promised Abraham's Seed is Heaven, it is earth also. We see also that Christ will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 yrs and all must pay homage to HIm there and come up for the appointed feasts lest He keeps rain from falling on those lands which don't send envoys to the feasts. That is quite a literal thing.

i believe we ought to reckon with the Literal Nature of Scripture and by default assume things to be allegorical always, in hindsight i have missed out on many things because of that assumption. Scripture is Manifold, being Literal and Allegorical in some instances but to understand the Allegory, we have to reckon with the Literal. This simultaneous duality of scripture tends to fry our brains and leave us with this idea of it must be "either or" when it is both. We oft argue about the meaning of certain scriptures as though we think we have the corner on the Truth without considering that perhaps my brother or sister is right also and that Scripture is Manifolf, not being restricted to 1 or 2 meanings but an Infinite number of meanings because the Author Himself is Inifinte and Infinity. There is a Jewish tradition i heard of which says each verse in scripture can be interpreted at least 360 different ways...we sometimes are bugging over 2 seemingly different meanings and yet there may be at least 358 more! all of a sudden when i see the posts here and differing viewpoints, i see more and more that they are not necessarily wrong but different aspects of the Truth, testifying to the Manifold Nature of Scripture as it's Author. by His Grace i see it and so my reading and understanding of the word has been Revolutionized and so much has been opened up to me in a short period as a result.

drinking deeply...

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

The destiny of unbelieving Israel, that is those Jew which don't come to Christ is eternal damnation, end of story.

i wasn't talking about a unique Destiny for unbelieving Israel but for believing Israel.

However, for those that are Elected by God to Salvation as we have been have a Destiny which God has written for them which involves the 144000 for example, the temple and some other things which can't be fulfilled by us as Gentiles.

It is interesting that you mentioned the 144,000 because I was just reading in The Apocalypse Code by Hank Hanagraaff about this being the most misunderstood number in the bible. For example, Tim Lahaye says that these 144,000--exactly that number--are Jewish men who have not defiled themselves with women and have a visible mark on their foreheads and are virgins.

From Hank's book:
"In truth, the number 144,000 excludes neither non-Jewish men nor women. Far from fixated on race and gender, the number 144,000 is focused on relationship. It represents true Israel--not by nationality but by spirituality, not by circumcision of the flesh, but by circumcision of the heart. Indeed, the 144,000 are "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb...the 144,000 and the great multitude are not two different peoples but two ways of describing the same purified bride. Literarily, the 144,000 and the great multitude are comparable to the Lion and the Lamb. Just as John is told about a Lion and turns to see a Lamb (Rev. 5:5-6), so he is told about the 144,000 and turns to see a great multitude (Rev 7). Thus, the 144,000 are to the great multitude what the Lion is to the Lamb, namely, the same entity seen from two different vantage points. From one vantage point, the purified bride is numbered; from another, she is innumerable--a great multitude that no one can count."

Also, why would there be anymore need of a Temple now that Christ has secured redemption? What kind of sacrifices would be offered in a Temple since Christ was the atonement 'once for all'?

God bless.

Dear Linn,

I appreciate your comments, and perhaps you have been misunderstanding me, for I do not believe that unbelieving Jews shall be saved... of course not, that would strike at the heart of the Gospel that salvation is by grace through faith. I am in no way saying unbelieving Jews are automatically saved simply because they are Jewish.

I'm talking about the NATION, not individuals per se. All Israel shall be saved. There is coming a time when the entire nation shall turn to Christ in repentant faith. This does not mean unbelieving Jews are saved... the Lord Himself shall turn that nation to Himself [b]when He comes[/b].

I honestly believe it will be too late then. If they don't mourn for Him and repent and believe before He comes, I believe that mourning will be of those who left it too late... maybe like the foolish virgins who were, after all, watching for Him, they thought.

I disagree with you sister, because the Scripture says clearly in the context of Zechariah 12:10,

[i][u]"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications[/u]: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."[/i]

How can you overlook this? It is speaking not of the Gentiles but the inhabitants of Jerusalem... and the Spirit of grace and supplication CAUSES them to mourn for Him, in repentance; it is natural that they shall do that: the Messiah Israel (as a nation) has rejected for over two thousand years since they crucified Him on the tree is ample cause to mourn, as one mourns for an only son. This is definitely a supernatural event in prophecy and by necessity IS different than the normal way of coming to Christ so many have entered into during this diaspora.

Israel is currently blinded, but there is coming a day the Scripture plainly says when that blindness shall be supernaturally removed by the Lord and then they shall see Jesus is their Messiah. It won't be too late, it will be right on time, and with Paul all we can do is exclaim, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

[i]"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."[/i] (Romans 11:25-27)

Who of Israel shall be saved then? All Israel. Not those who "fell in the desert" during this time of blindness, but all of Jacob that remains at the time of Christ's return. Will that be a small number? Probably. But it will be that wonderful glorious ALL, and that ALL will be for the world, as Paul puts it, [b]life from the dead[/b].

[i]"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"[/i] (11:12)

Eli_Barnabas wrote:
Dear Linn,

I appreciate your comments, and perhaps you have been misunderstanding me, for I do not believe that unbelieving Jews shall be saved... of course not, that would strike at the heart of the Gospel that salvation is by grace through faith. I am in no way saying unbelieving Jews are automatically saved simply because they are Jewish.

I'm talking about the NATION, not individuals per se. All Israel shall be saved. There is coming a time when the entire nation shall turn to Christ in repentant faith. This does not mean unbelieving Jews are saved... the Lord Himself shall turn that nation to Himself [b]when He comes[/b].

Not all of the pre-existing house of Israel will be included in the salvation at the end of the Tribulation, except by their faith, which will not be determined until the White Throne Judgement.

One specific you have not mentioned is that it is only those of the nation of Israel [u]that remain[/u] alive unto the end of the tribulation will come face to face with their triumphant King, realize who He is by the piercings evident in Him, will mourn grieviously, and come to faith as they realize how wrong they have been.

Any scattering of non-marked Gentiles will also realize that the Being who came to the rescue, and kept them all from dying, is beyond your average general. That there will be gentiles in the Millenium is fairly evident from the description of Revelation about the Millenium, and the requirements for all to come to Jerusalem each year, or risk judgement.

Jesus will indeed be ruling with a rod of iron, for despite all those that will believe on Jesus when they understand who He is, living it out under even a benevolent despot will be a bit hard to take for our independent natures...which is why Jesus has us, to carry out His commands.

As best I can determine from the hints laid out in the stories and parables, each of us will be assigned some duties that will aid in the administraition of the worldwide kingdom, probably in addition to learning a great deal ourselves as we do so.

What is particularly to be stated is that no unbeliever will pass into the Kingdom that is the Millenium.

The Judgement of the Lambs and Goats sorts out those, Jew or Gentile, who will not believe, or who are already disqualified by having taken the Mark of the Beast.

Only the elect can enter in to the final testing of the human race in the Millenium...but their children, and their children's children may or may not, despite having Christ as King and Lord, decide to place their life and soul in His hands. They will believe, because their God is before their eyes...but they may not choose to submit to a God other than themselves, as is the primary problem of mankind.

As Eli's and my views match substantially, I will leave the discussion in his capable hands.

Blessings to all,

Forrest

bro Jay

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Here is where we begin to separate. I understand that there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles just as there is a difference between Males and Females. However, scripture is clear that when it comes to the promises of God 'there is no distinction.'

Galatians 3:27-29
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

i agree with the scripture fully in that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ. However the above scripture doesn't say "heirs [i][b]of[/b][/i] the Promise" but rather "heirs [i][b]according to[/b][/i] the Promise" There is a difference. The Promise in question here is that of Salvation. God said He would make Abraham's descendants like the stars in the sky. This is talking of Redemption through Christ. There are indeed things which we inherit but the Chief thing is not what we inherit but [i][b]how[/b][/i] this comes to being and it is according to the Promise which God made to Abraham. That being said let me speak once more on the issue of the Distinct Destiny of Israel even in Election. to be sure, there is also a Distinct Destiny for Gentiles also. it is along the same lines as i had outlined in my last post, [i][b][color=0000CC]you are Jay and God has determined a destiny for you which i being Farai can't fulfil and vice versa[/color][/b][/i]

It is interesting that you mentioned the 144,000 because I was just reading in The Apocalypse Code by Hank Hanagraaff about this being the most misunderstood number in the bible. For example, Tim Lahaye says that these 144,000--exactly that number--are Jewish men who have not defiled themselves with women and have a visible mark on their foreheads and are virgins.

well indeed Dr. Lahaye is mistaken concerning this number, it would seem also that to a degree bro Hank is also mistaken concerning this number. There are 2 sets of 144000, the first being 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel and these are not said to be virgins. The 144000 which are the firstfruits from the earth however are said to be virgins not having defiled themselves with women. These are 2 distinct numbers, the former comprising of Jews, the latter Gentiles, both of which couldn't be called out apart from Christ. So Israel's 144000 is should not be viewed as being a cirsumcision of the flesh only but it is also a circumcision of the Spirit, it is both, not either or. The Multitude does include both peoples having been redeemed from the earth. This multitude is indeed every saint from the first to the last...however the trib is yet going on and people are dying for Christ...a little discrepancy there. The thing is, the Revelation is not strictly a chronological account as we understand it, consider the Source. God Himself. He sees past present and future all before Him at once. If we fail to see this, we end up with weird ideas about what is going on. people place the saints in Heaven before the trib is over but this isn't how it plays out. However at the same time, Paul says we are seated with Christ in Heavenly Places already...

Perhaps we also ought not forget that Israel is betrothed to the Father but the Church is betrothed to Christ, a distinction in destiny.

Also, why would there be anymore need of a Temple now that Christ has secured redemption?What kind of sacrifices would be offered in a Temple since Christ was the atonement 'once for all'?

i think the idea that the temple was simply the place for making sacrifices is an oversimplication of the function of the temple. It was also a gathering place and much more happened there than sacrifices. To me this reflects a shallowness on our part and a failiure to understand what God is trying to communicate to us using that model and also the complexity surrounding the temple and its purpose in Judaism. Granted we are not Jews but if we understand well the old Covenant, we have a better appreciation for the new one. We know Christ was the sacrifice for sin which atoned for all our sin but i would ask does that invalidate all the other sacrifices which have nothing to do with sin? something to consider?There were offerings made to God on various feast days and such, are all those done away with as yet or is there a place for them yet?

People learned at the temple, people fellowshipped there and so on. The temple is to be rebuilt that it may be defiled as God said through Daniel concerning the making of a covenant with the people for a week and then breaking it halfway through.

Just when we think we have it figured out...God throws a curveball...Ezekiel says that the temple of God will be rebuilt. If we look at Ezekiel 36, it speaks of Israel being restored to the land. This particular restoration seems very much to be final. What God does when He brings Israel back is He cleanses her completely from her iniquity and makes the land like Eden. i found that peculiar and our Lord asked me if i had ever seen Eden. i haven't, and indeed nobody has who is alive today. So what shall happen in Israel is that the land will look unlike anything anyone has ever seen before. This is yet future. Then in Ezekiel 37 there is the famous "dry bones" episode. in it God says some interesting things, like this:

[b]23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.[/b] and this: [i][b]24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.[/b][/i]

who is this David who will rule these people forever? could it be our Lord Jesus? Could it be that this is the point at which Israel steps into the Blessedness of Salvation in Jesus? to me this seems to be a future thing since the last Davidic king was Zedekiah, the same who was taken into captivity by the babylonians. At present i don't think we can say the Davidic King rules over Israel as yet whether we think this is literal, symbolic of Christ, or both which i believe. and what about this?

[b]26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. [/b]

Then in Ezekiel 40 he begins to speak about the temple and between chapters 40-48 Ezekiel makes mention of this prince who rules over Israel who helps with making sacrifices to the Lord. He seems to be a man of very high standing...anyhow i believe Ezekiel is speaking of the 3rd temple which has yet to be built because Israel has not yet been restored per the Ezekiel 36 outline which God has made plain.

i believe that the temple is our body and we are to be living stones in His temple but there seems to me to be a broader context of this temple and perhaps a part of it is a very literal one like say Solomon's. the more i look at the word, the more i see that its proper interpretation is less and less a matter of "either or" but is something Manifold. such that when i discuss with brethren differing views, where some see it as either the way they understand it or the highway, i see by brother's point and that which God has shown me as being part of the much much bigger picture of scripture which we're not even scratching the surface of yet. i was meditating yesterday on this very thing and our Lord showed it to me that we have an overinflated view of ourselves and this translates into all we put our efforts to. When it comes to God and scripture, we think we have the lock often times and are not open to seeing that there is more out there. The depth of God is incomprehensible. bro Jay i see your points, however like my own, they are part of something which is on a scale beyond our combined comprehension. i hope you see that also.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis Dorcas

Greetings in Jesus Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Brother IRONMAN, I believe this is where John's interpretations of the temple being His Body, is a key elucidation for New Covenant believers.

Peter picks up on the living stones right early in Acts and again in his epistles, and Paul also refers to the Church as His temple.

yes you are very right that we are the Temple of God and the Temple of the Holy Spirit of God. However there is also a very real sense of there being a physical temple building also. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:

[b]3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [/b]

This i believe corresponds to Daniel 9:27:

[b]27 And he shall confirm the covenant F70 with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [/b]

Now there has never been a covenant of such a kind with the Jewish people as yet. When Titus came in 70 and destroyed the temple, it was not in the midst of any kind of treaty with Israel which was violated as stated in the above verse in my estimation. It is interesting to note that there are oblations being made in this period. this means there has to be a physical temple.Jesus speaks of this abomination which causes desolation in the gospel. Some have said He was speaking of Titus but when we observe what Daniel was saying, we see there is a covenant made by this man with many for a week which is violated in the middle of it by him setting himself up to be worshipped as God in His temple. so there is also a place for a literal temple in all this eschatological mix.

Even in the Revelation there is mention of both us as saints being pillars and stones in the temple of GOd but there is also a clear mention of a physical temple.

Revelation 11 says:

[b]1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, F11 and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. [/b]

Even in Heaven there is a temple, God's Temple which is only rendered obsolete in Revelation 21 which is after the enemy has been cast into the lake of fire along with every evil and wicked person and thing.

[b]22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.[/b]

If we are the temple, what becomes of us when there is no longer a need for the temple as stated in Rev 21? Now we know we are the temple of the HOly Spirit while we are here but it seems there is no need for this arrangement any more in heaven. There is a Physical Temple in heaven even now from which the angels will go forth with the wrath of God in bowls. This will be rendered obsolete when the enemy is finally vanquished after the 1000 yrs.

so what shall we say then sis? are we the temple of God? Yes we are! i agree with your point completely and scripture testifies to it! However scripture also testifies to there being a need for a physical temple because there is yet a future role for it in God's Eschatological Plan so we can't toss out this notion simply because we see we are the temple of God. That is a Mighty thing but it is a part of something even Bigger. as i said to bro Jay, i see your point clearly, but it is a part of something so much bigger...what God has shown you concerning this matter isn't the whole picture, there is so much more. i see a duality here, a physical and spiritual thing going on simultaneously which i can't ignore either part of but i bless God i am able to see both a bit better now.

i bless God for this place called S.I.! the more i interact with you my dear brethren, the more i am quickened to the Eternal Context of Scripture and the Grandeur of our God as Reflected in His word and His Plan which He is unfolding before us all. i see more and more that it is not a matter of 1 view vs another but rather your view which God has given you + that which God has given me= a better view of what God is working out. i pray God we begin to see things like this because i feel this is to truly see things from His Perspective, this is what it is to be in Heavenly Places with Christ Jesus and to see all from His Vantage Point. What a blessed Place this is!

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Saints,

I too keep seeing a many folded message in Revelation...for the life of me, I can't help but seeing more than one [i]rapiemur[/i] or Rapture mentioned, and I keep seeing the 6th judgements of the seals, the trumpets and the vials, pretty much all being the same.

[color=993300]Rev. 6:11. [b]And white robes were given unto every one of them;[/b] and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. [u]For the great day of his wrath is come;[/u] and who shall be able to stand?

Rev. 11:12. [b]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither.[/b] And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, [u]and thy wrath is come,[/u] and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev. 16:15. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: [u]and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.[/u]
20. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.[/color]

Being of a pre-trib history, and being pre-wrath based, I pray to get out of the way of the beast as soon as the Lord will take me, even though a special blessing, of being forever in the temple with Jesus, is given to those that die for not taking the mark.

And if it weren't for the fact that Paul said we would be changed, if alive, before Christ comes, and tells us to comfort each other in times of tribulation with that notion, I couldn't believe in the [i]rapiemur[/i] or Rapture at all.

[color=993300]1 Thess. 4:13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. [b]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/b]
18. Wherefore [i][u]comfort one another[/u][/i] with these words.[/color]

Then on top of all that, I just keep on hearing the 3 sixes's of those three judgements echoing in my head, and have to shudder.

For those of you still hunting through the verses of scripture, and trying to make sense of it all, either pull all the last days verses out of scripture, and look at them together; or, if you can stand to work backwards from an existing view, buy a second hand copy of Tim LaHaye's [u]Revelation Unveiled[/u], read it for a good understanding of the whole pre-trib viewpoint, then work backwards over the verses and prove it wrong.

For Tim LaHaye haters/despisers, his work on the Revelation verses is reasonably sound, the theories also reasonable, except the gap theory, and the theory of dispensationalism, which I can find no basis for, except as a reason to tie all of the pre-trib belief's together. And if you look at nothing else, they do hang together!

Sometimes, it is best to understand the most popular viewpoint out there, in order to diverge from it later.

In fact, it was not being brought up in any church, or in the belief of the pre-trib [i]rapiemur[/i] or Rapture that kept me from from totally believing it.

I had to work awfully hard in my Bible, and every pre-trib book out there to stay in that pre-trib position, and in the end I had to abandon the view, turning to pre-wrath, whenever that is, and to trusting God will be with me.

For all of us, we must be aware of the very real possibility of persecution here in the US, Canada, and Great Britain. We also must be willing to suffer whatever we have to suffer, and still hope in the Lord, that He will deliver us, in whatever way He see's most fitting, whether it is through the [i]rapiemur[/i] or Rapture, or simply by walking with us as we head to our deaths.

And yet, even so, if the Lord choose, I would be more than happy to get out of this world [u]before any 7 year guarantees are signed by a third party with Israel[/u], which if you look over at Israel,and the Middle East, such a treaty doesn't seem out of the question, or very far away in time at all.

Blessings,

Forrest

P.S. For those of you that are aware of me personally, I am going to be temporarily stepping away from my delight in SI, except for popping in daily to pick up and leave messages, although I will probably be tempted to still occasionally take part in some threads.

My website continues, and so does my e-mail, and since my Skype is UniqueWebRev, I am occasionally there as well, and when trying to figure out what to write next, I will probably also have my Skype on.

I will be concentrationing on that book one of you was insane enough to say I should write when you read my testimony in Miracles that Follow the Plow.

Both God and the devil are talking to me about it, so I will have to make an attempt at it, and see what happens. God warned me not to talk about the novel that incorporates my life that He is trying to write through me, but I blew it, talked about it, and now the devil is giving me a very bad time of it.

Please pray that I will write what God want's me to write about...how He stepped repeatedly into my life, and in the end, how He stomped on the devil to save me, and hopefully, will use the example of His grace in my life to help not only my brothers and sisters, but those who do not believe that GOd would ever forgive them.

Sis Dorcas you wrote ...
"You make me smile...."

--- Praise God, and you make me wonder, both reactions i believe generated and exercised in His love and peace regarding so intense a topic :-D ---

You wrote ...
"It's not as complicated as it sounds at first."

--- To you maybe, but it is to me which is why i added the prayer that if i'm not understanding
what you're saying, and it's correct, then Lord please enlighten me too ... See i know that under this grafted in period that Romans call "until the fullness of the Gentiles has entered in" there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but i can't get to the conclusion that God the Father is thru with His Bride Israel and His covenants with them (especially regarding the land because He also promised it to Abrahams seed forever) because they're still as a distinct people a central theme in the Revealation during the Trib, Great Trib, the 1,000 year reign of Christ (when we know here for sure that the Church as Christ Bride is complete), and it's end when satan is released once more and who are the first people he goes after? ... Israel ... And what does God do? ... Protects them yet again by sending fire down from heaven ...

See to me saints who believe in Replacement Theology, or saints who just plain believe as you seem to that Abraham's seed has forfeited the benefits of God the Father's covenants because of not keeping up their end of the bargain, are missing the fact that he is the one that said they were everlasting ... That tellm me that there's something more powerful at work here for reasons grant you i don't understand ... Yes i agree with you that we saints under grace enjoy a priveledge (Christ as our one time blood covering) that Israel of old didn't (they only had the blood of animals multiply) and perhaps that's why God the Father gave them such covenants ... Then there's the fact that Romans says that God blinded them to Christ, that we might be grafted in ... All i'm saying is that there seems to be more at work here than what we as humans, even saved, can determine about the relationship between God the Father and His Israel ...

i read on this thread, and others that seem to discard the Jew, that God the Father's covenants with them, are passe ... There are questions about why would there ever be another Temple in Israel after Christ, or the nation of Israel is so dispersed until how could they ever put together another pure Levetical priesthood, or all this talk about broken covenants and so their no longer elegible ... i don't buy it ...

[b][color=CC0000]Sis Dorcas have you ever read the last eight chapters of Ezekiel (40-48): ... These chapters are believed by many Bible Scholars (as well as the footnotes in my Ryrie Study Bible) to occur during the 1,000 year reign of Christ the reason being that ther've been no past fulfilments of this prophecy in Israel, especially regarding a river of living water flowing from ubderneath the east of a rebuilt Temple ... This passage of prophecy speaks of a rebuilt Temple, in full animal sacrifice service for sins, under the overseership of a regathered levite priesthood headed by a Chief Priest (called the prince) ... Not only this, but it sets out anew the borders of the land of Israel to each of the twelve tribes[/color][/b] ... Again i don't buy it, i believe there's still something going on between God the Father and Israel whether we understand it, like it, don't like it, or ever accept it on this side of the Mellinial reign ...

Blessings in our beloved Savior Christ Jesus ...

Sis Dorcas you wrote;
"I'm not sure what you are getting at here... and I'd appreciate a little more context... You said 'If all this is is a discussion.... I bow out...' It sounds as if you want it to be a 'sort of standing on the neck of the ... Jew'... I can't believe that though!

--- Praise God the bell went off! ... :-P

Of course i don't WANT it to be "a sort of standing on the neck of the Jew", from you or anyone else who believes that Israel has been replaced ... That's why i stated my primary concern was to make sure that it's not because of what:

Re-Quote
"Rom.11: 11 - says "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." ... What i pray for for myself (and all other saints) is that Christ will shine in me/us in such a way as to draw the Jew toward salvation in Him ... i think history shows that we've done a pretty good job of provoking them to "anger" and "rejection", even amongst those now saved ..."

i guess somehow i have an empathy for the Jew that i believe God has put in me, as i can't explain having any other reason for it ... i can't imagine being chosen of God initially to do His bidding without Christ, and having to live under the law, then to be blinded by God to the messiah's coming so that we gentiles could get in, when all prior He's told them we were less than dogs ... Had to be confusing then, has to be confusing now ---

Sis Dorcas you wrote;
"It was really the word 'conceited' which caused me to pull out this paragraph, in case you're telling me I sound conceited?"

--- No i'm not saying that you're concieted, nor anyone else who believes the Jew/Israel passe in God's plan, what i'm doing is calling to mind something God had written in which to check our motives about such beliefs, and if our motive(s) are wrong then He's the One who uses the word "concieted" to warn us of "having excessive appreciation of one's own worth or virtue (grafted in Christian) - usually at the expense of another (side-lined Israel) ... If anyone analytically, and scripturally, believes such totally clinically without any disdain, or feeling superior to the Jew/Israel because we appear in and them out, then i might think you mistaken, but not concieted ... It's not my place to call it, God knows and will deal with it appropriately, my concern again is just to point out what scripture warns about regarding this ---

Sis Dorcas you wrote;
"True. He wears His heart on His sleeve though... which is one of the reasons He used to get so disappointed. There is a bit of that to be detected in Exodus, when He seemed to think the Hebrews would want to see Him... but that was the last thing on their minds (Exo 19:24)."

--- Sis Dorcas, i am very analytical, God knows that sometimes it may be to my fault ... But God
is someone i truly don't understand, and by His grace has brought me to a point where i don't even have to ... But you speak of His being dissapointed, and i know OT Scripture is full of such emotional references of God the Ftaher's reaction to Israel ... But you know what, in my mind, how could our all knowing Father ever be dissapointed when He already knows the outcome of everything? (Christ was slain before the setting of the foundation of the world) ... And i think it's why Paul was inspired to write the following about we Christian's trying to figure out where the Jew/Israel stands in our being grafted in ...

Rom. 11:
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

On some things we speculate ... on all things God knows ... that's why i like what the brother said in the article i posted a little ways back ... "Why can't we the Church be the Church (provoking them to jealousy), and let Israel be Israel ... and the Root will eventually make it all very plain to both camps ...

Blessings in our all knowing and all wise God ...

PS - i sign off in such a way as to try to let all my fellow saints know that no matter how intense the discussion, it never outweighs the love that He commands we ever have for one another :-D ---

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

There is something very small which you are missing in your interpretation of scripture. That is, that Israel entered the New Covenant with God on the day of Pentecost, and just like you are bringing up your children to know the Lord, so did those Israelites who knew Him by the Spirit, bring up their children to know Him.

sis D i know full well Israel did enter into the Covenant already, which is why those Jews who die now without Christ go to hell and await the eternal torment. Could it be perhaps that what i am sharing here may be a missing element to your understanding of scripture concerning this matter?Something to consider perhaps? However Paul clearly says that israel has been blinded for a time until the time of the Gentiles is complete.

from Romans 11:

[b]7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded F41 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, F42 eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. [/b]

God has given them a spirit of slumber at this time.

[i][b]9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway[/b][/i]

[u][i][b]11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. [/b][/i][/u]

Yes they too are in the Covenant but are blinded for your sake and my sake that we may be Saved and then provoke them to Jealousy that they may be awakened. We have yet to achieve this.

[u][i][b]12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing F43 of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?[/b][/i][/u]

dear sister, if Israel's demise at this time benefits us to Mightily in God, how much more shall we all benefit when Israel is grafted back in? Dear sister i long for this because this is the coming together of the Fullness of the Elect of God that we may realize Fully the Glory of God Manifested in and through us all. That is the Fullness of the Israel, Israel being the Church made up of Jew and Gentile.

Brother, I can hardly believe you've read the New Testament and still maintain Israel is yet to be saved.... What's going on....???

sis D i could say also i hardly believe you've read the N.T. and think that Israel [i]has[/i] been saved already. i am talking here of Israel in the sense of the Jewish people excluding the Gentiles. What then shall we make of this which Paul said in the letter to the Romans:

from Chapt 9:

[b]1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [/b]

and Chapt 11

[b]26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [/b]

so all Israel is yet to be Saved so that we Gentiles may be grafted in. Note that Paul here is using Israel in the sense of the Jewish nation and excluding the Gentiles. We can't ignore this. Well i could be wrong in how i am seeing this sis and i if this is so, may God set me straight coz God knows i don't want to run around being deluded over anything...what do you think Paul means here?

than you one you offer, which is rooted in the sovreignty of God and doctrinally, (A sister in the Lord has told me that in the US one has to be on or the other of Calvin or Arminian - reminds me sadly of 1 Cor 1 and Paul's cry 'Is Christ divided?') of a Calvinistic explanation.

sis D, is God Sovereign or not? i believe He is and this nonsense of either having to be Calvanist or Araminian grieves me to no end. God is totally Sovereign, and we have free will too yet His Sovereignty Rules all. If we look at the testimony of the word, we see clearly we have free will but also clearly that God has Predestined, now to me that says that God is not confused about this, Paul understood and so do i now by the same Grace given to Paul. it's not a matter of either or when it comes to free will and predestination, scripture says it is both, clealy. i would say that the argument from both sides of this issue stems from our overinflated view of ourselves sometimes which clouds our minds and hearts so much so that we often don't consider that the other side is right too. Calvanists think sometimes Araminians are nuts and vice versa but i think both views apart from eachother are equally foolish. This is because primarily God sees both things as 1 in the Eternal Purpose, that is His Glory Forever so it's not one or the other from His Vantage Point clearly. We must take hold of both lest we end up with a warped view of God and live according to that and present that to others.

But, it's the right answer from the wrong reasoning....

then you know God is at work in this wretch if He can lead me to the right conclusion in spite of my bungling and bumbling about! :-P oh thank you Jesus for your death!

except inasmuchas if the death of Christ is not sovreignly sufficient for the sin of the world, we are all lost!

oh i belive fully that God holding up His end of the Bargain allows us to do the same in spite of ourselves. Without that, we have no hope as you said.

Further, this leaves 'Israel' without excuse.

indeed which is why any Jew (or any body for that matter) who dies apart from Christ spends eternity in the lake of fire. All the same though sis, you and i being Gentiles are saved because Israel has been blinded and God saw to it. Now that we are Saved, we are to bring Israel to Jealousy by showing forth Christ such that they are convicted and come to repentance and the Salvation which is also theirs clearly as much as it has been made ours. So we have a job to do and it would appear we aren't doing as well as we ought to at present in this task we have been charged with by our Lord and God. May He be Grace for us to so do that our brethren may share in what God has made ours at their expense. May we give unto them the Salvation which we have ourselves received so freely.AMEN.

Indeed sis D our Lord is making His bride ready, and God the Father is preparing His also, that being ISrael. Now Israel is yet in slumber for our sake yet this is part of the preparation hence Paul saying that she has been blinded for our sake and that all Israel will be saved and even this:

Romans 11:

[b]25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness F45 in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[/b]

Paul warns us that if God didn't spare the natural branches, he will not spare us either from being tossed in the fire...

sis sometimes i feel (and i pray God i am wrong and would rather be wrong so i can be corrected) that in discussions such as these, we boast against the branches...i read your post and was concerned of this boasting. To be sure there is the other extreme too which would allow Israel Salvation apart from Christ and we know that is not the case. Sis, i see the promises given ISrael as to be Fulfilled completely once she comes to Salvation in Christ. The lands, and so on given to Abraham will be theirs only when they come to Christ.

perhaps i am wrong about this, if so may God set me straight. However if i am right, may He set us all straight that we may not boast or get carried away in vain conceits but that we would bring Israel to Jealousy and the Salvation promisd her from of old which we have been given on account of their being blinded.AMEN.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus. AMEN.

Greetings in Jesus' Name sis D by whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

In fact, it is replacement theology to believe that the nation of Israel has replaced the Church on the basis of the passages in Romans 9 - 11.

indeed it is but i am not saying that Israel has replaced the Church. what i am saying is that in the Church, that is all saved men Jew or Gentile, there remains a distinct destiny for Israel which we can't ignore which involves the temple, the restoration of the land in the millenium, Christ ruling from Jerusalem and other things. it seems at least, we are not willing to acknowledge that and i am wary of that sentiment because i believe it is of the enemy. to be sure, there are destinies written for all of us, unique to all of us because God made it so and so it is for Israel and the Gentile even in Salvation. There is no getting around Christ as Saviour either way so there is no difference between Jew or Gentile but just as the Church (Jew and Gentile together) make up the Body of Christ which is made up of many parts, each with different roles all to the same end, so there are distinctions among us in terms of destiny, this goes beyond the individual to families, nations and kindreds.

In saying this, again I (personally) do not divide up scripture into books for Jews, books not for gentiles, books for gentiles but not Jews and so on. It's the word of God. The whole written record of His revelation of Himself to mankind, and it's all worth our while to take it all in.

neither do i but see some places and things which are distinctly pertaining more to Jews than Gentiles and vice-versa. However the bottom line is that all these things irrespective of who is given a larger role, all work toward the Purpose, the Glory of God Forever.

Therefore, I do hope you see this and what is erroneous about it, without mistakenly disposing of the truthful interpretations of the same scriptures which are being reconfigured by those who do not believe, for the purpose of injuring the Church and God's cause.

i believe i do and if i have not come to a full view of this i pray God bring me to it quickly. i hope also you see where in the word there are those interpetations which speak to Jewry in Christ specifically but see that it is a matter of divine destiny which distinguishes the 2 groups not in the sense of being separate in terms of Salvation. i hope you see where i am coming from more clearly, yes there is no difference between Jew or Gentile in Christ, because all must be in Christ to be saved, but just like you and i have different destinies or roles to fill to the end that God be Glorified, so does the Jew and Gentile in that sense.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Reply too (Edit),

The Temples made with hands were exsamples. When Paul spoke they were still standing. With out any merit (Edit) you have become the temple of The Living God. Salvation is not of you, its a gift from your Holy Father.

In Love your brother Eddie

Sis Dorcas ...

OK ... i stand corrected ... You're not about "replacement theology" and you're not "conceited" in reference to the Jew/Israel as Paul warns in Romans ... Praise God, because as i said that was my major, really only concern ...

But also like i said i must not be on the same level of understanding as yourself (that's why scripture says we need each other) because i just can't seem to get my head around your posts (maybe i have a mental block :-? ) ... So don't even try with me anymore as i need Holy Spirit's help big time with this, and so i'm just gonna sit back and read as you and bro Ironman, and the other heavy hitters on this subject go back and forth, and see if i can learn something one way or the other ...

Blessings in our beloved Lord and redeemer Christ Jesus ... :-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved sis D.

i hope sis D that you do read the O.T. i figure that would be a good was to have a background in it if you don't have one!For references to the 3rd Temple we can look in Ezekiel for example. In Ezekiel 36, we see our Lord restoring Israel to the land and then setting David over them to rule forever. in Ezekiel 37 our Lord says this:

[b]25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. [/b]

now God says He will set David as king over them forever. This is the Messiah, that is Jesus. i believe that His Ruler over them (we know He Rules over us but let us look at Israel specifically here) beginning first in their hearts, that is they repent and accept Jesus as Lord. Yet even after this, they are reffered to as Israel and this to me seems a distinction not on the matter of Salvation (there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ) but rather of Eternal Destiny, just like your destiny and mine are different although we are brethren in Christ. God setting His Sanctuary in their midst is speaking of His Presence among them Spiritually and also in a physical manner (since spiritual things are not discerned by the heathen) in the form of the temple. God says that the heathen will know that He has Sanctified Israel when His Sanctuary will be in their midst forever. The heathen will see this temple and know GOd is with Israel. The temple itself will become obsolete later on and i will come to that later on.

Ezekiel 40 begins to describe this Temple which will be when ISrael is restored to the land by God. Note that this isn't Israel whose capital is Tel-Aviv but Jerusalem so this is not speaking of the current state but a future one since David (that is Jesus) is not ruler over them in anywise as yet. as you read the subsequent chapters concerning the temple and how God is speaking to Ezekiel you start to see that none of this has happened yet. for example from Ezekiel 43:

[b]1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. 3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. 5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. 6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. [/b]

now from that point some interesting things are said...now i have yet to come to a full understanding of what all this means but i believe it has to do with the Millenial Reign and He who Rules and the Redemption of Israel as a Nation.

from chapt 44:

[b]1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. 2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. 3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same. [/b]

ok so the gate which God entered by in the previous chapter is shut so no man may come through it...except the Prince. this is the David which God talked about in chapt 36 who Rules. The same is the Messiah Jesus. If only God could enter by that gate, no other man may come through it except whoever is appointed by God so i see this as Christ and if it isn't Him directly, then it is His appointed representative. this will make a bit more sense later.

continuing in chapt 44, God says this to Ezekiel:

[b]11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.[/b]

now this is occuring in a new temple while ISrael is being ruled by this Prince chosen of God in a period after they have been restored and come to the Knowledge of Jesus as Messiah...David is ruling over them. So sacrifices are being offered here...the only place that can happen is the temple which we have seen rebuilt in the preceding chapters.

[b]27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD. [/b]

sin offering? my that throws a wrench in our understanding of the anoting work of Christ...or does it? i don't think for a minute that the sin offering being spoken of here is for the covering of sin, Christ did that already. Perhaps it is an outward show of remorse for sin or a commemoration of the Cross in some way? i am unsure but i pray God will open these things up to us. That which i shared was just a postulation which may be wrong and i pray our Lord set me straight if this is so. AMEN. Either way, sacrifices are going on in these days of David.

in Ezekiel 45 is the dividing up of the land again. the ruling Prince will have His share of the land also as will the other princes who rule with Him. it seems this will be a government after God's own Heart since:

[b]7 And a portion shall be for the prince on the one side and on the other side of the oblation of the holy portion, and of the possession of the city, before the oblation of the holy portion, and before the possession of the city, from the west side westward, and from the east side eastward: and the length shall be over against one of the portions, from the west border unto the east border. 8 In the land shall be his possession in Israel: and my princes shall no more oppress my people; and the rest of the land shall they give to the house of Israel according to their tribes. [/b]

13 This is the oblation that ye shall offer; the sixth part of an ephah of an homer of wheat, and ye shall give the sixth part of an ephah of an homer of barley: 14 Concerning the ordinance of oil, the bath of oil, ye shall offer the tenth part of a bath out of the cor, which is an homer of ten baths; for ten baths are an homer: 15 And one lamb F214 out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord GOD. 16 All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel. 17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

i believe these oblations are those which Paul said would stop when antichrist defiles the temple and is then revealed (mid-trib) before the Church is caught up at His return. Now i belive also that the Rule of David must begin in the hearts of ISrael before it is literally realized and in this time the Temple will be rebuilt. After the defilement of the temple it must be cleansed. as chapt 45 continues, there is more talk of sacrifices. i think it is also important to note that the temple wasn't only a place of sacrificing. People taught, learned, gathered and fellowshipped, met with God there, heard from GOd there and so on. The sacrifices themselves were of various kinds which i think remain valid (except the sin offering for the purpose of covering sin since Christ washed away sin) that is things like freewill offerings, fellowship offerings, thank offerings, peace offerings and so on.

from chapt 46

[b]12 Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.[/b]

so the Prince makes sacrifices also but this next bit is interesting...

[b]16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons, the inheritance thereof shall be his sons'; it shall be their possession by inheritance. 17 But if he give a gift of his inheritance to one of his servants, then it shall be his to the year of liberty; after it shall return to the prince: but his inheritance shall be his sons' for them. 18 Moreover the prince shall not take of the people's inheritance by oppression, to thrust them out of their possession; but he shall give his sons inheritance out of his own possession: that my people be not scattered every man from his possession. [/b]

:-? so to me this seems like the same Prince from Ezekiel 36, David, our Messiah Jesus, but here He is having children? :-? i don't know what to make of it really. i suppose traditionally we have always held the belief that Jesus wouldn't have children. i guess we would have to consider if this view although old is wrong. i guess it is God's Prerogative if Christ were to have children, what is that to us anyway?or maybe this prince is a proxy for Christ (and so Christ doesn't have children and the tradition remains intact) and that Christ rules through Him. i find it interesting that He is referred to as David, Christ is always called the son of David. Perhaps it is David resurrected? :-? with Christ ruling through him? :-? :-? :-? i don't think we can ignore these things mind-boggling though they are...i pray God will show us the meaning of all these wondrous things.AMEN.

in chapt 47, one of the borders of this new Israel is Damascus. the last time i can remember the borders of Israel being that large was during and shortly after the reign of David since he set the garrison there and the time which Ezekiel wrote these things was long after this. Then our Lord God speaks to Ezekiel again about the dividing up of the land and mentions this as being a future thing...with Damascus as one of the borders...this means Jordan and Syria as we know them will be undone...anyone heard of Isaiah 14? Damascus left in ruins? Perhaps it could be coz of the Samson Option or perhaps God's own Hand in some other way.

then Ezekiel 48 talks about the City, it's gates named after the 12 Tribes of ISrael, 3 on each side of it. i guess these are the gates of pearl mentioned in Rev 21 also.

in Zechariah 6, there is mention of a man named BRANCH who i believe to be the same Prince in Ezekiel.

[b]12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.[/b]

He is a King and Priest too like the Prince in Ezekiel, Ruling and making sacrifices also. interesting. this has yet to happen so it must be future.the way the name BRANCH is written speaks of Christ to me.

Then there is this about a Fountain in Zech 13...

[b]1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. F42 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.[/b]

which sounds like what God will do in EZekiel 36-37.

Zech 14

[b]1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.[/b]

it seems this is the Gathering at Armageddon which happens here and then Christ comes and splits the mount of Olives in 2. However the city will be attacked and taken and Christ will take it right back...and then

[b] 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned F46 as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.[/b]

so in that moment Christ establishes His Dominion over the earth and rule from Jerusalem.

[b]16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment F48 of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells F49 of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. [/b]

i believe that this is the Millenial Reign here with its oblations and so on.

which New Testament scriptures do you find to justify fulfilment of certain prophecies (as you understand them), for believers of Jewish or Israelite origin separately from gentile believers?

ah, ok, let us consider for a moment what Christ said about the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel. it was not in 70 A.D., there was no covenant for a week with Israel then and it was not the ruler who entered the temple. that event speaks to the desolation of the temple which is a thing unique to the Jewish people. at this point i believe that they will have come to Christ. The temple is there in the city because there is a Temple in Heaven also. Now right now there is no temple on earth as there is in heaven, but i believe that in spite of this, that there is a Temple yet in heaven speaks of there being a need for one here until the temple in heaven is obsolete. There is a Temple in Heaven all the way until the enemy is cast into the lake of fire and all that is evil is cast in there. after that point there is no need for a temple, and i don't know why except God deemed it so and that is good enough for me...that God said so. to me that says that until that point there is need for a Temple on earth. Clearly there is one since it is defiled.even during the millenial Reign it is there because of observances/oblations which are made such as the feast of tabernacles which has sacrifices associated with it. only when the New Jerusalem comes down is there no need for a temple since God is with us in a manner which no longer requires the Temple.

[b]15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/b]

how would this tie into anything which has to do with Gentiles? there is probably some way in which such sufferings are applicable to us i suppose but Christ brought up the issue of the abomination of desolation which concerns the temple, a uniquely Jewish thing. Also this persecution is aimed at Jews specifically and i believe that this is the time of Jacob's trouble.this hasn't happened yet, this conflagration.

it was not in 70 A.D. since these other things didn't happen. the sufferings and times around that event i don't think line up with what Jesus was talking about here. Paul also speaks of this same event in 2 thessalonians 2 as it pertains to the coming of Jesus.

also from Romans 11:

[b]22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?[/b]

Israel is yet blind till we all get in, then they shall be quickened and come to Salvation and Grafted back into the Tree. This hasn't happened yet. We the wild branches are being grafted in and ISrael will be Grafted in fully later.

[b]25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness F45 in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.[/b]

Also all Israel is yet to be Saved.

There is also the calling forth of the 144000 from the 12 tribes...then the 144000 from the Gentiles also. There is a school of thought which thinks that this is the multitude which JOhn sees which nobody can number. These 2 groups are of the multitude. The multitude represents every saints who ever was and will be in heaven at this time...how on earth does that figure?what with the trib going on and people dying for Christ and being saved and all? well every saint is in Heaven even now so John was seeing the present and future at the same time...which is how God sees it. Paul did say we are seated in Heavenly places with Jesus...we are in that multitude which John saw, we were there when John saw them.how cool is that?

Then there is the whole matter of Jerusalem being attacked by gentiles, that speaks to something uniquely identified with Israel as opposed to us as gentiles. Now all the while these prophecies concerning Israel are awaiting fulfillment, we must remember that we are 1 in Christ so the separation isn't in Salvation but in destiny. as Gentiles in Christ (if i may make that distinction) there are some things which God has set aside for us to do and be distinctly, the Chief of these things, which if we fail at it, then we've failed at all, is to bring Israel to Jealousy which will usher them into Salvation and that is a Mighty thing. without this, the other prophecies of Israel will remain waiting.

(I believe this is what you are trying to get me to consider. If I've picked you up wrongly, please clarify further. Right now, I'm not interested in more OT scripture with its own interpretation, but for you to take from the apostles' doctrine... explanations... interpretations... commands and promises... for your foundation.)

well i brought up the O.T. prophecies which clearly have yet to happen and tried to put them for you in the context of the Millenial Reign which is N.T. though not uniquely since it is mentioned in the O.T. Also i brought up the issue of the abomination of desolation which is mentioned 2 times in the N.T. (in the gospels as one occurrence and in Thessalonians) but that it also O.T. anyhow sis, i don't think one can really separate the O.T. from the N.T. in the manner i think you are trying to for this purpose. i may be misinterpreting what you said and if i am forgive me sis. however i think it is quite a terrible and dangerous thing to separate the scripture into the Old and New Testaments in a manner which renders the old irrelevent. We need to understand the O.T. because it is the foundation of the N.T. and without knowing it well, the Benefits of the N.T. are lost to us in the same measure that we fail to understand the O.T.

this whole thing which our Lord had me share with you sis was an interesting exercise. as i was writing, our Lord was leading me to the various scriptures and teaching me many of these things for the first time. Now some of the things i was led to bring forth are my own wrestlings which i am having with what i have read. for example the issue of the Prince and His having children. are these his seed? if this is Christ having children, what does that mean for our long-held belief that this was somehow impossible? is it bad that He would have children? are we uncomfortable with the idea? if so why? is it because we don't want to abandon our traditions or is it something else? after all it is God's Prerogative to do as He pleases and if it is Christ having children, what is it to us? of course i have not decided that this is the case at all in case someone may think i am leaning in this direction. i am asking questions which i hope our Lord will answer by whatever means. Perhaps some of you may have those answers. Perhaps this Prince is a proxy, perhaps it is David himself? :-? :knockedout:

this is part i guess of something which our Lord is having me work on concerning the wars (2 of them) of Gog and Magog.

there is so much to consider brethren...may our Lord bless these feeble efforts to get closer to Him by drawing nearer to us and openning our eyes to the Truth that we may understand what He is trying to communicate to us.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis Dorcas
Greetings in Jesus' Namw by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i meant we shouldn't leave out the O.T. in terms of understanding what God says in it to Israel. Some things yet remain to be fulfilled and i believe they will be fully realized upon Israel coming to Christ. We ought to read it and understand it well so that the New Testament can be fully appreciated. sis you said yourself you had no background in the O.T. and i think that ought not to be so, in that sense it looks like you're leaving out the O.T.

The New Covenant made with Israel came in with Christ and so the old is Obsolete in this sense. Now what was it that Christ came for? to die for God to be Glorified in the Salvation of men. This is The Sin offering so the practise of slaughtering animals for the covering of sin is not necessary if one is in Christ. However, Christ did say that if we love Him, we are to keep His Commands and those came to us through the Old Covenant. Christ summed up all those things by reminding us to Love God with all we have, and then to Love our neighbours as ourselves.

i agree we would be dilinquent (as you say) to ignore the new Gold Standard but i think it is equally delinquent to neglect the Old as though what God said there is irrelevent because it isn't. From looking at the books of Zechariah, Ezekiel and the Revelation, we see that there are sacrifices, feasts, and celebrations which are to be celebrated in the time of the Millenial reign which need the temple and sacrifices are made. we can't ignore that. i am not entirely sure how this fits into the New Covenant but evidently it has a place.

i don't know sis, i feel as though sometimes we're acting as though Israel is no longer relevant...or that the promises made to her have been revoked. They haven't but they await Israel's Embrace of the Messiah for them to be Fulfilled according to what the Prophets of old spoke and looked forward to but never saw.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

[b][color=FF0000]EZEKIEL'S PRINCE CAN'T BE JESUS CHRIST!!! ...[/color][/b]

Bro Ironman you wrote;
" so to me this seems like the same Prince from Ezekiel 36, David, our Messiah Jesus, but here He is having children? i don't know what to make of it really. i suppose traditionally we have always held the belief that Jesus wouldn't have children. i guess we would have to consider if this view although old is wrong. i guess it is God's Prerogative if Christ were to have children, what is that to us anyway?or maybe this prince is a proxy for Christ (and so Christ doesn't have children and the tradition remains intact) and that Christ rules through Him. i find it interesting that He is referred to as David, Christ is always called the son of David. Perhaps it is David resurrected? with Christ ruling through him? i don't think we can ignore these things mind-boggling though they are...i pray God will show us the meaning of all these wondrous things.AMEN."

--- i certainly agree with you that there seems to be something going on in Ezekiel 40-48 that points to, in the Millenium, there being a third Jewish Temple (probably the same one as spoken of in the Rev and Daniel) being in use, and a resumption of actual animal sacrifices,via a restored Levitical priesthood led by this mysterious guy called "the prince" ...

God the Son having children via His own creation (woman)" ... i shudder at such a thought, and actually am repulsed by it - isn't that the reason He clamped those offending angels who left their stations into everlasting abysment? ... Of all the speculations you've listed above the one i come closest to agreeing with is somehow "this prince is a proxy for Christ" ... The following scripture i think rules out that he could possibly be Jesus Himself ...

[b][color=FF0000]Ezek.45
[22] And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.[/color][/b]

For "himself and all the people of the land" does this prince prepare a sin offering ... Christ is without sin ... He's God ...

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro Rahman
indeed in reading what is in Ezekiel got me thinking and asking a bunch of questions because i didn't know what to make of it all. The idea of Christ having children is disturbing and so whenever i mentioned that i always balanced it with the idea of a proxy which seems much more likely, really i lean more toward this so forgive me for not making that very plain. i mentioned also that Christ is called the Son of David and He called Himself the Root and Shoot of David but not David Himself so if David it set of Israel, it may well be David or someone like him who is a proxy.

For "himself and all the people of the land" does this prince prepare a sin offering ... Christ is without sin ... He's God ...

and this is the clincher and our Lord ran me past that scripture and had me say this:

[b]sin offering? my that throws a wrench in our understanding of the anoting work of Christ...or does it? i don't think for a minute that the sin offering being spoken of here is for the covering of sin, Christ did that already. Perhaps it is an outward show of remorse for sin or a commemoration of the Cross in some way? i am unsure but i pray God will open these things up to us. That which i shared was just a postulation which may be wrong and i pray our Lord set me straight if this is so. AMEN. Either way, sacrifices are going on in these days of David.[/b]

in the previous post. our Lord answered that question for for me through you.

Whew! i'm glad all that has been set straight in my mind! so i go from :knockedout: and :-? to :-D bro you know me, i'm trying to upturn every stone and account for each possibility so i have as close to perfect an understanding of what the deal is as possible. it comes of sometimes as dangerous suppositions but if i'm thinking such and am unsure about what to make of it all, i don't want such thoughts festering and getting any kind of foothold. Therefore the sooner i can have God dispatch these questions and answer them rightly, the better and the less time the enemy has to try and mess me up so i can keep moving on.

i do ask for forgiveness of God and from you all where i have confused or upset you my brethren.

i bless God for His setting me straight in spite of my bungling and bumbling about...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Quote:

" Now what was it that Christ came for."

This is the reason Jesus Came; John 1:10-12 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

They knew about Him in the old testament but they did not know Him. That is our new covenant, as Paul states, "To know Him". Knowing David does not let us know Christ, or Abraham, or Moses or any one else in the old testament. We must be born again by His Spirit and The "washing of water with the Word", who does the washing? The Holy Spirit Comforter Teacher, He will teach us all things. He, that is the Holy Spirit is now in us, not just with us. So, we are born again of Spirit and water. Again, The Spirit of Christ is life, The Holy Spirit is The Teacher of that Life in us.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Act 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2Cr 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

The Holy Spirit is the Revelator Teacher of the fleshy heart. The Spirit of Christ is our Life.
Our new life in the new covenenat, which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory."

Colossians 1:23-28 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to (((((fulfil the word of God;))))) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; ((((((which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:))))) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect ((((((in Christ Jesus:)))))

This Gospel is not in the old testament. National Israel cannot and will not be born again, only individuals that believe that He is Jesus Christ The Only Begotten Son of God.

The Old Testament is part of the Word of God and it profitable for Doctrin and reproof etc.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It is not profitable for the Christ that is born again in you. Christ in you, a mystery that was revealed to Paul and Paul alone and he verifies it 4 time, "MY GOSPEL". This Gospel was not in the old testament, only the Gospel of Moses. It was hinted at but kept a mystery until it was revealed to Paul, Christ cannot be born again in an old testament believer. He had not come and was not resurrected and asscended and come back in the Spirit of the believer in Him. He is our life now and we need to know Him by the Holy Spirit revelation and teacher of what He says. That is PERIOD. John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This Comforter was not available to those in the Old Testament.

You must see the difference in the old and the knew. The old is earthly and works oriented, the New is Heavenly and Grace oriented. You cannot mix the two or they cancel themselves out.

Christ in: The words christ in occur in 224 verses, including 6 exact phrase matches shown first:

Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Rom 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.

Eph 6:24 Grace [be] with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. [[[To [the] Ephesians written from Rome, by Tychicus.]]]

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Just an example.

Now: IN CHRIST: The words in Christ occur in 224 verses, including 77 exact phrase matches shown first:

Act 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Just an example: But, pretty amazing Christ in you or you in Christ, that is the important thing, which was not in the old testament, only revealed in the new testament.

Colossians 3:1-6 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Heavenly Grace, in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Seek Him.

The Old testament which is earthly: Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rightly divide the Word of Truth and Christ in you becomes clear, not Moses in you, or Abraham's Faith but the "Faith of the Son of God".

Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Galatians 2:14-20 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Don't live as a Jew or Israel's earthly promise keepers. But live as Christ-ones, heavenly promises and new creature keepers.

In Christ: Phillip

Greetings in Jesus' Name sis D by whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

well now that i know what you meant about the O.T. background specifically the prophets that makes a lot more sense to me now...

I've emboldened the sentence I agree with totally, but, it cannot stand with the first part, in the sense which you mean it... as if only Israelites who come to Christ will experience the fulfilment of any prophecy to Isreal which has not yet happened.

i didn't mean to imply that we wouldn't benefit from the promises which haven't been fulfilled since we are grafted in. However there is a component of this which speaks specifically to Israel at the same time as it speaks to the whole people of God. Israel has yet to be restored to the land and brought to Salvation, the promise of Salvation has yet to be fulfilled unto them, that is the Jew but we as Gentiles have been receiving it while they are yet blind to it.

I've said this 'gentiles ... become Israel', several times, because I believe this is the only way to make sense of the whole tenor of scripture from start to finish, but you have continued to dispute the point... which is why I asked you to find New Testament scripture to back up your thinking

yes we have been grafted in and are Israel and i agree with that, however my concern is that in us being grafted in, some may think that the original ISrael, that is the Jew is irrelevant and that is the point i am disputing. Paul Himself says that the Jew has been blinded for our sake so we ought not boast. Based on that, there are yet some things awaiting fulfilment.

sis when i say old covenant, i am speaking of the ordinances which we know remain pertinent. because we are under Grace that enables us to keep the law just as Christ did, this is the thing which we can't do away with.

Honestly, I can't go along with this entirely, in the light of the New Testament.

sis, i'm not talking about the law in terms of perfecting men or saving them, but as justification before God. if we are Saved, we will keep the law as Christ did or strive to.

The end of Ezekiel 37 also ties in. All you need is to see that the 'midst' can be personal also, without changing the communal meaning which is closer to 'amongst'. Regarding the preceding verses though, the unmistakable reference to resurrection is not insignificant, esp vv 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' " Do you try to separate this - in your thinking - from the actual bringing to pass of the New Covenant two thousand years ago? And do you discount the way Paul and the other New Testament writers explain their own history?

this is interesting sis. this does speak to the New Covenant coming in, but we still await for all ISrael to experience this in the manner spoken of in Ezekiel 36 which also involves the return of the people ISrael to the land of their forefathers. sis do you discount that perhaps there is a future realization of this thing or rather that Israel hasn't stepped into this in the sense of coming to Salvation as we Gentiles have received it?

from Zechariah 3:

[b]8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree. [/b]

this is Christ being talked of and the ushering in of the New Covenant in which all man's sin is removed in a day on the cross.

from Zechariah 6:

[b]12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. 14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the LORD. 15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God. [/b]

now there is a duality going on here. We know of the coming to Salvation of men and how we are live stones in the temple of God. However i believe this also speaks of a physical temple present on earth. this is not the one which was being built at the time Zechariah was preaching, that is the second temple since it wasn't built by Branch.

now from Zechariah 14:

[b]3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; F44 for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. [/b]

this is what we know about what will happen at His Return. however consider this statement:

[b]16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment F48 of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.[/b]

this occurs after the defeat of the enemies which gather at Armageddon. since we know the mount of Olives is split at His Return, what happens after this is the Millenial Reign during which Jesus Rules with a Rod of Iron. this implies that there will be resistance to a degree. Clearly we see our Lord decree that those who don't observe the feasts during HIs Rule will suffer. We know also that the enemy will deceive many when he is let loose from the pit and call men to attack Jerusalem once more.

Jesus also speaks of the abomination of desolation which Daniel spoke of which is committed by the one who makes a covenant with many for a week, that is antichrist. Paul also speaks of this same thing and refers to this man as the son of perdition: from 2 Thessalonians:

[b]3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [/b]

from the Revelation chapt 11:

there is indeed a temple and one of the functions of it is sacrifices of various kinds.

[b]1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, F11 and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. [/b]

this isn't the temple in heaven unless we believe that gentiles will trample on the Holy City in heaven. This is Jerusalem and this speaks of the latter part of the tribulation.

we know also that there is a temple in heaven and the only time there is no need for one is at the end of the Millenium and the enemy is cast into the lake fire.as long as there is a temple in heaven, there is need for one here.

if you read from Ezekiel 40 on, there is mention of a guy called the Prince who is a king and priest who rules Israel. He is the David who rules over ISrael forever as said by God in Ezekiel 36. In the subsequent chapters, there is mention of sacrifices being made in the temple which Ezekiel was shown. i believe this period is the Millenial Reign. Though the Revelation doesn't go into any detail about what the Millenial Reign will be like, i believe that some things are alluded to in Zechariah and in Ezekiel which speak to that. we look back in history and we don't see anything like what has been described in these books as having occured already so we wait for it.

I mean, just what is the point of John quoting Jesus, and giving the interpretation of His prophecy, if Christians are going to ignore it? (John 2:13 - 22.) Might this verge on Christ having died in vain - ie - unbelief?

not sure what you meant here. i read the scripture and is speaks to Christ's death as He spoke of the temple being His body.

would you clarify that for me?

Now bro IRONMAN, I don't think things like 'unbelief' of you, because I have the strong impression that you are open to hear from God and anyone who has a more complete way of explaining scripture. And I'm not making that claim for myself. But, I've heard enough New Covanant teaching to know that your focus on the Old Testament is not compatible with the way the New Testament re-interprets history.

indeed the N.T. does interpret history but there are some things which await fulfilment which are completed in the N.T. i would say that perhaps some of the N.C. teaching you have heard may not be sound in terms of how it views the N.T. interpretation of history. what i am looking at in the O.T. isn't what has been fulfilled but rather what awaits fulfilment and for that i don't think there is a N.t. interpretation of that apart from awaiting it's fulfilment. of course i could be wrong and if i am, i pray God straighten me out and i pray God straighten you out if you are in error.

And just in case you think that's not possible (because of the respect you have for those teachers whom you trust), let me tell you there are church leaders about in the world, who have no intention of accommodating New Testament truth into their thinking, their preaching, their teaching or their personal lives, and they don't expect their flocks to, either. In fact, it might make you unpopular !!!

i don't really rely on many teachers...i read the word of and seek God on it and He reveals to me through others sometimes or in other ways. Just as there are some who don't accommodate the N.T., there are those who neglect the O.T. and those things which remain unfulfilled or only partially fulfilled, i would say we ought to be wary of both.

maybe i'm wrong but it seems most teachers tend to neglect the O.T. and the idea that God isn't done with Israel yet...i sometimes get a sense of it from you and it bothers me. Perhaps my fears are unfounded and it is i who is in error sis, may God straighten me out where i am. AMEN. if you're in error i pray He sets you straight.AMEN.

EDIT perhaps the sense i get which mentioned above is because when you speak of these things, you don't have much of a background in the O.T. prophets and the things which were said there and haven't been fulfilled yet and speak to Israel. if this is the case then i pray God show you what remains to be fulfilled.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Phillip,

[i]"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."[/i] (Galatians 3:7-9)

You seem to have latched onto dispensational doctrine and are preaching it like it is the truth, but you are seriously missing it, brother. It sounds nice, doesn't it, to say that the Old Testament is earthly and works based and that the New Testament is heavenly and all about grace. Sounds great, but it's just not true.

Would you say that Abraham is excluded from the blessing of faith, based on the above passage, but we his children get it but he does not?

To say the things you are saying is like this parable:

[b]THE PARABLE OF THE WICKED BUSINESSMAN[/b]

Once upon a time there was a man who wanted to start a new business. He needed money to begin, so he went door to door collected pre-investments, promising them that when the business began they would have a share in it and receive a profit. Finally he acquired all the money he needed to begin and at last started the business.

Once the business began, other people saw the promising future it held and began to invest into it. So now people were buying shares in the business AFTER it was up and running. Then the businessman did a wicked thing.

The businessman went back on his word and disregarded all those who had invested in the business BEFORE it began. He declared that only those who invested from now on, since it began, would have any share in the profits! This made the new investors happy, but all the old investors were left with nothing! All the money they had given to the businessman to help him start the business was gone and they had no share in it anymore! This was a dirty move... the wicked businessman lied to the pre-investors and never really intended to pay them back!

----

The point is, the Old Testament saints, though they did not get to see Jesus and live in the days of the New Covenant, they still looked forward to that day when Christ would come and give His life for an atonement for their sins and they still looked forward to the day Christ will come again and establish the Kingdom of God on the earth. They placed their faith in Christ even before they knew who exactly He was to be. [i]"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."[/i] (Hebrews 11:13) Though they did not see the promises, they "saw" them at a distance, embraced them and confessed them. How dare we say they have no part in the promises they do dearly anticipated?

Brother, many saints have died not seeing the promise of the Lord's second coming. Does that mean they will not reap the blessing of it, or is that only meant for those alive and remaining?

Bear also in mind that as Gentiles we have been grafted into THEIR promises, and though we may be enjoying them now, they still belong to the Jews and the nation will yet in the future enter into their blessing. To say Israel is cast away is a completely blind statement Phillip, and you are misunderstanding God's plans and purposes, for which HIS glory is at stake.

[i]"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."[/i] (Romans 11:11)

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro Phillip, what does this mean?

This Gospel is not in the old testament. National Israel cannot and will not be born again, only individuals that believe that He is Jesus Christ The Only Begotten Son of God.

i assumed one thing but before i respond, i need to be sure what you are talking about. do you mean that the nation of Israel is no longer relevant in God's Plan? do you think that Israel is beyond Salvation in Christ?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Quote:

"do you mean that the nation of Israel is no longer relevant in God's Plan?"

Absolutely not. But Israel and the Body of Christ are different. "He came to His own and they received Him not". "The Gospel is sent to the Gentiles and they will hear it." Not because we are better, but because God implimented a new way of Salvation at the Cross.
The old, which is passed away, The Law of Moses and the 10 commandments, the Law of God.
The New, from before the foundation of the world, God's plan included at the Cross and after the "Corn of Wheat fall to the ground and die and bring forth much fruit", That is His Body the Church which is pure Grace by the Faith of Jesus Christ in the believer.

God is not finished with Israel and she will receive all her promises and covenants as God chosen people the children of Israel.

The Body of Christ is receiving God's promises now, for those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Sure the devils believe, but they have already been judged and their belief is overshadowed by the worshiping of their king satan. God's Grace does not extend to them and never will.

Believe and you will be saved. Then God begins His work with His Fathered children. Fathered by placing the Seed incorruptable, that is Jesus Christ His Son in you. "That is Pauls ministry, revealed direct to him by the Son of God, Jesus Himself." Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: The only way an Isrealite can be saved now is to believe like the Gentiles. In Christ their is no Jew or Gentile or any other option of peoples, class or religion. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Not predistinated to heaven or hell but to the "adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself".

Is Israel still in God's hands, absolutely. They will receive all God has promised when Jesus Christ is sitting on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem. We are receiving ours now, and will be with Him when He reigns, we will reign with Him, from our Father's House.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2 Timothy 2:10-12 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Phillip,

You are still making a mistake... you are saying Israel has the Law, and the Gentiles have grace. You are associating Israel with the Law but not with the New Covenant. I can't stress this enough that the Gentiles are enjoying ISRAEL'S covenants and promises (Jeremiah 31:31, Romans 9:4-5). They were first given to them.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the promises given to them (of Christ), were hundreds of years before the Law was ever given. No one has ever been saved by the Law (Galatians 3:11); it's always been by grace through faith.

[i][b]"Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? [u]Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/u]
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 [u]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,[/u]
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 [u]Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.[/u]
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, [u]a seal of the righteousness of the faith[/u] which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 [u]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.[/u]"[/i][/b]

The Church has no covenants and promises except:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We will not dwell on this earth with Israel and her earthly reign. We will reign with Christ in our Father's House the New Jerusalem come down from Heaven, where we are already seated with Christ now.

The only promise to Israel we have received is the Christ that is in us, which Israel did not have and still does not have, only individuals whether Jew or Gentile, make no difference, the individual must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and they will be saved.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

This is our promise. This is our covenant.
"Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

And:

The proposed non-separation of the Children of Israel and the Body of Christ's Church son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

sis D

you said:

My challenge to you to back up your proposed separation between Jewish believers and gentile believers from the New Testament awaits.

what do you mean by proposed separation? do you mean in terms of the manner by which both are Saved or is this a matter of Destiny?

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN

Greetings sis Dorcas in Jesus' name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

I mean, please use New Testaments text to justify your proposal that there is a destiny ('destiny' not being a scriptural word) for Jewish believers, separate from that for gentile believers.

sis there are a couple of things going on here which i may not have communicated very well. By separate i don't mean that the destiny of Israel has nothing to do with our own as Gentiles. what i mean is that our Destinies are one indeed in Jesus, they all work to one cause, that being the Glory of God Forever.AMEN. Now there is a distinction in that these 2 have different roles to play in that end just like the role you have in Jesus and the role i have are different and yet work toward the same cause. This is the Manifold Wisdom ofgod being Revealed through us to the powers of the air. That God shows His Wisdom and Power and Glory in Manifold Nature, like looking at a diamond and the many facets each refract light a little differently. That's what i'm getting at.

We can look for example at the warning Jesus gave to the disciples concerning the abomination of desolation. He told those living in Judea to flee when they see it. Yes He was speaking to His disciples as Christians but also from a very unique Jewish standpoint which has a gravity for them different to our own. Now that doesn't mean that the Gentile believers will have nothing to do with that, but rather the roles being played there differ but both are toward the same end. Paul even reiterates that matter. Paul also speaks of how the Gentile is to make the Jew Jealous so as to bring him to Salvation which is another distinction in the roles of Jew and Gentile. There is also the calling of the 144000 from the 12 tribes, and the 144000 from among men. 2 sets of people with differing miinistries in terms of their target but both working to the Glory of God forever.

does that make sense? Also i don't think one can limit this to just the N.T. because the O.T. has some more details in it concerning these things which we would do well in understanding. i would suggest to continue reading the O.T. prophets and see what God says through them.

so in short we are One people but we have roles which differ in the Eternal Cause just like you and i though being one in Christ, have different Roles in the Manifestation of the Glory of God because He reveals through you and me different Attributes of Himself.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Greetings sis D in Jesus's Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

sis D
i think i am just having a hard time getting across what is in my mind. as i said, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in terms of Salvation. However, in God GLorifying Himself through this Work, there are differing roles. i read your response to bro Philip and i agree we are one Nation in God, yet we each have differing roles to play. curiously you haven't said anything about what i had said before about your role in this Purpose of God being different than mine because we are different people. That is the distinction which i am talking about.it's like the allegory Paul uses of the Body of Christ. Each part is unique and serves a unique function though each part is of the Same Body. So this is the distinction between Jewish and Gentile Belivers. Both are Saved by the Blood of Christ but the roles of both are different and yet are for the Same Cause so it is not an either or thing here.

i will use another example. you said that we ought to consider ourselves citizens of heaven right? Now our relationship to our country of origin and/or residence ought to be washed through that. See i am a Zimbabwean, i was born in America and grew up in Zimbabwe so i am ZImbabwean but also an American citizen (not an AMerican because that is a different thing altogether) You on the other hand (i'm not sure where you're from) are from wherever it is you're from. Both of us are Saved. i as a citizen of Heaven have been given a responsibility to tend to my nation Zimbabwe which you yourself have not received. This is what God has destined for me concening that nation. Are we separate? Not in terms of Salvation requirements but our roles in bringing God Glory are very distinct because of what God has spoken to each of us. Just as God has spoken to ISrael concerning the restoration in the land and so on, it is linked with their own Salvation and there is a role in God's Plan which is reserved for His bride Israel. These things are 1 in that God is Glorified in them both. Just like there is Predestination and yet there s free will. The common thinking is that the 2 are mutually excusive yet to think so is to have a warped view of what is going on. Without understanding that there is a unique role for the Gentile and Jew in God's Plan to bring Glory to Himself through the Salvation of men, is to have a poor view of what God is doing. So for you to get a better view of this, you would have to dig into the O.T. prophets some more because there is much there which speaks to this very thing, namely the role of the Jew in all this.

i belived you when you said you didn't buy into replacement theology, however it seems to me that you don't have a grasp on the role of ISrael and the Gentile is in this whole thing which God is doing and it is a much needed thing because it puts things into perspective. This is a part of the analogy of the body of Christ. Each part is different but works together.

or maybe i'm tripping...like i said if i am wrong, may God set me straight coz He knows i don't want to run around deluded.

if that doesn't make my position plain enough, i don't know what will except for one of 2 things.

1) if i am wrong, God sets me straight.
2) if indeed this is the Heart of God, that He opens your eyes and sets you straight.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

My Quote:
"And:

The proposed non-separation of the Children of Israel and the Body of Christ's Church, son's of God."

This has nothing to do with who is saved, it has to do with how Israel was saved and how the Church is saved.

This was the addition I intended to this quote:

"My challenge to you to back up your proposed separation between Jewish believers and gentile believers from the New Testament awaits."

Israel separated to the Law of Moses and the Church being different to Grace by Faith.

Of course anyone save now is saved to the Body of Christ, whether they are Jew or Gentile. All from the Cross are saved the same way, individually, not as nations or peoples.

Everybody wants to commingle Israel and the Church and make salvation the same in the old testament and the new testament. That is commingling Law and Grace. I hope this explains my statement better. For I agree with everything you say except a small disagreement. I am no longer an American Oakey, born in Seminole Oklahoma in the United states, trained in college and American Flyers School of Avaition, having flown with Kings and Presidents and in audiance before them. I am a Christian, birthed by My Father in Heaven which puts me in His Family by the Christ in me. What did Paul say about his heritage and upbringing? It was fertilizer. Love you sis, thanks for keeping me on my toes.

Philippians 3:4-11 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Only in Christ.
In Christ: Phillip

dear saints
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

brethren i just want it to be clear that i don't believe Israel is Saved apart from Christ. Their Salvation is no different from our own so there is no separation in that sense at all. Some would have you think that Israel can somehow bypass Christ but that's not the case at all. Now yes i believe that their role in bringing God Glory is different to our own but we are 1 in the same Cause.

Indeed we are Saved as individuals but aren't nations made up of individuals? can we not say then that nations are saved in that sense? of course our Primary Citizenship is in Heaven but our earhtly nationalities remain and serve a function which can only be properly realized by our walking in the Primacy of our Heavenly Citizenship.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Quote:

""Indeed we are Saved as individuals but aren't nations made up of individuals? ""

Yes Just as The Body of Christ, one heavenly nation in Christ, a new creation race of the son's of God.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit

Earthly: "One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all

Heavenly: One nation birthed in Chrst, indivisable from God the Father, with Peace and rest and Grace for all that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Baptized into one Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip

bro Philip

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

indeed you spoke well when you made the distinction of earthly vs Heavenly nationalities as it were. However bro Phillip, don't you think that in our stepping into the fullness of what it is to be Citizens of Heaven, that we also affect, and very drastically so, the nations of our earthly citizenship? i would say for us to be one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all is something which can only come to be once we step into the fullness of our Heavenly Citizenship. Anyhow what i am saying is that being Citizens of Heaven has an affect on our earthly one and that is an evidence to those who look at us that we are Citizens of Heaven.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Yes the world needs to see the kingdom of God on this earth. This is what they don't know or have seen or heard, including 90%of the church also.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

And the truth of the Person that is in us not just a religion of do's and don'ts.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Making us lend to the reaching for the intended goal of our rebirth.

Colossians 3:1-14 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

In Christ: Phillip

Greetings in Jesus' Name sis D by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

I thank you for the time you've taken to keep hammering at your point. You have explained it perfectly, and that's why I asked for the New Testament endorsement of it... and also, why I continue to resist accepting it while it's based in Old Testament scriptures only.

but sis D, i don't think one can ignore the O.T. texts, i would say that the O.T. texts which speaks of the Salvation specifically of the Jew make all the sense in the world to me in light of the New Covenant in that once Israel steps into it (that is to come to Salvation) those things will be fulfilled for her. i'm looking at the O.T. in light of the New Covenant...hence this makes perfect sense in my mind.

I don't believe we can ever say a 'nation' is saved, apart from the new Israel.

what about this in Rev 7?

vs 9

[b]After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [/b]

this is the sense i am speaking of when i talk of the Salvation of Nations, people from various nations being Saved. i look at the population of people saved from any nation as being that nation. if that's wrong may our Lord staighten me out.

In Ezekiel I've come across more than one reference to God's intention to have a people which\\who have been purged from people who are not His.

yes which is the Gentile but He also says He will call some out of Israel itself also.

Of course, your 'body' analogy is completely correct, but, there is no scriptural basis for separating Jew and gentile within the body. This was one thing I was getting at with my 'spot the mistake' post... that the reference to jealousy is not between members of the Church... as the jealous party is yet unsaved.... and once a Jew\\Israelite is saved, he has no reason to be jealous.

but sis a finger and a toe aren't the same thing but they are not separate, they are part of the body and both serve different and distinct purposes. i never said anywhere that the Gentile and Jew are separated but that their purposes are distinct but are both to the end that God be Glorified. There is no separation there because the 2 are 1 but they play differing roles. Just like there is no separation between you and i sis D, but we both serve different purposes in God bringing Glory to Himself...not sure why you don't see nor address that because that is all i am saying.

Paul had ample opportunity in his letters to mention such a distinction, and he doesn't.... not even once. The reverse is more true, that he rules out a distinction, several times.

sis, Paul said there is no distinction in terms of Salvation. however He did say this concerning distinction in the body:

1 Corinthians 12:

[b]27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities F46 of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. [/b]

This is the distinction i am trying to get at. There are certain things which are peculiar to Gentile believers which God will use to His Glory and the same for Jewish ones. The POINT being we are ONE but we serve varying functions and that is the distinction. Not all of us are eyes or ears are we? Not every one of us is an Apostle or Prophet, or Teacher, or Worker of Miracles are we? NOt all of us speak in tongues. Does this make us separate? not as i understand things, to me it brings out the Manifold Nature of the Wisdom of God being Revealed to us and and the powers through us in different ways through each individual. do you see what i'm getting at?

i used the example of the Gentiles bringing the Jews to Jealousy to bring up the point that there always was a distinction between Jew and Gentile in what God wanted to work through either people to His Glory which carries on while we are in the body. Each part is unique, fashioned for a specific purpose which can't be done by another.

I guess this is why you have had to base all your extrapolations on Old Testament texts... and that's why I do not accept it. Frankly, in the light of the New Covenant, and Jesus' own teachings, it doesn't make sense (either).

sis, i don't know how you can push aside the O.T. as though it has no relevance in this matter but i am looking at the O.T refernces in light of the New Covenant. Ezekiel 36 is contingent on Israel stepping into the realization of Jesus as Messiah otherwise there is no point. This applies for the chapters which follow that.

Another question might be... How could any gentiles who have been grafted into the olive tree, in any way excluded from the olive tree's life, ministry, and final end, as you infer, without making nonsense of their grafting?

again i'm not saying that we are excluded from the life of the Olive Tree.i didn't infer that sis, you assumed it. We share in it. We are branches grafted in however even if you look at the parts of a branch, you see there are differing parts which do differing things. The leaves capture sunlight and make food for the plants, the stems of the leaves supply the leaves with raw materials, and take finished products away. The small branches are there to hold up the leaves and the bigger ones to hold up the smaller ones and transport materials and so on. does that make sense?

I realise you're attached to this doctrine you've espoused, but, I'm truly concerned that in accepting it, you are blind to a more radical truth, which is more consistent with the whole New Testament, and not inconsistent with the Old.

sis maybe i am off the mark and if i am God set me straight, coz i would be in sore need of such. Have you considered that maybe you are wrong in your view? that perhaps a look at some of these O.T. references in the Light of the N.T. would make them more sense as opposed to relegating them to being O.T. and not considering an examination, a thorough one through the lense of the N.T?

that's how i am looking at this, that the O.T. Refefences i brought up are Depenedant Completely on Israel stepping into the New Covenant as we have?

maybe i am wrong sis, i fess up to it but i have yet to see you make that consideration and that does concern me coz it doesn't seem like you are as open to that possibility as i am. i am concerned because if i am right, something drastic would have to happen to make you reconsider...

maybe i am tripping...or maybe you're considering everything but the point...i guess i don't know how else to say this but it seems clear enough in my mind. May God give me Grace to better communicate this if i have heard rightly from Him, or if i am in error set me straight...

with that i don't really have anything else to say so i'm gonna sit down and be quiet and let God show me i am wrong and set me sraight or vindicate what i believe He has said to me.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Can we have a deal here...? That if you wish to allude to texts you believe I may not have considered, which are relevant to your belief of my mistaken-ness, that you would please bring them to my attention and ask me how I read them?

i am thinking primarily of Ezekiel 36 to the end of the book. i believe you said you were reading those chapters, perhaps you haven't finished with them yet. i apologize sis, forgive me.

I had never (until very recently), heard this doctrine of 'multiple fulfilments', but I really don't think I believe it. So far, my reading brings me to places where specific prophecy was fulfilled. After this, both the prophecy and the events become history and they (orwe) move on.

i am not speaking of multiple fulfilments here, but speaking of things which have yet to happen in my estimation, namely Ezekiel 36s restoration of Israel, the Gog and Magog war, the temple rebuilt and David sitting on the throne in Jerusalem Ruling over Israel. That to me makes sense only in light of Israel, specifically stepping into the New Covenant as we have. What i ought to have said was that the scriptures which speak of a future Salvation of Israel, which if we look at history have not yet been fulfilled, make sense in light of the New Covenant. this is what Paul was talking about (i believe) when he talked about Israel being grafted back in.

The big example of this which you have not answered, is that the writer to the Hebrews specifically states that Israel had had opportunity to reclaim the land, but did not. Now (meaning back in the first century AD), he totally revamps the terms of Israel's future, in the light of the New Covenant, clearly stating that Israel now seeks a better, a heavenly country.

yes they could have but they await God to give it to them in the manner described in Ezekiel 36-37. in Israel's future there is the earthly land, from which Christ will Rule in the Millenium, a land which will be made up after the nations which occupy the lands of Israel are removed, Jordan, Syria and some others. So this is a better country in that it is not taken but rather given by God. What has happened now is that they have taken it.

I would add that they always had their minds set on physical prosperity as a reward for keeping the law, an earthly kingdom and an outward one.

as are we sometimes even in the New Covenant.

They were wonderfully obtuse to the deeper call of God on their lives to actually care about Him, His opinions, His power, His purposes.All this changes under the New Covenant, if they will receive it... which many of them won't

some of us are also this very way. and yes indeed most Jews will miss the boat, but like Paul said, ALL Israel shall be Saved, which is the full population of Jewish believers and Gentile believers also.

So, I don't believe we can interpret the OT the way you are interpreting it, and call that 'in the light of the New Covenant', unless we are willing to alter our terms of reference at a profound level, and work at (with our minds) grasping what it means to be a Jew inwardly (or as Tyndale evocatively puts it 'the Jew hid within).

i am sorry for the confusion, i didn't mean the whole O.T., i was speaking specifically of those things which await fulfilment concerning Israel's Salvation.

sis again i don't believe there is a separation of Jew and Gentile but that the 2 have distinct Roles in God being Glorified through them.

i hope that clarifies things a bit more.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

SIS D
Greetings in Jesus' name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

I knew an American family who called their first son Bruce, because he was born in an airplane over Scotland. Likewise, the actual district in which a birth is registered is related not to the nationality of the mother if she is an alien in that country, but, to the PLACE in which her child was born. And that child retains that BIRTHPLACE, which can never be changed, even if he grows into an adult who wants to claim the nationality of his mother, and does so through a formal process by which he is reckoned to have been born in her home country.

do what now? :-? :-P

i think i understand how this applies to our Savlation.

First, I don't find any gentiles being called out in the word Ezekiel gave from God, although there is plenty of it in Isaiah's prophecies. But, I haven't finished reading Ezekiel yet. There will be more answers when I do.

you know what sis, i think i misread what you said in your initial post. i read it as though those people who aren't His are gentiles when it refers to those Jews who are not His inwardly. sorry about that sis.so Ezekiel is directed to the Jew with no reference to Gentile Salvation (that i can think of at present) as it is in Isaiah.

Secondly, in that God was primarily talking to Israel about how He was going to save them - but without explaining to them exactly how... apart from by His hand and His outpoured wrath - I am very clear in my mind that before any truly gentile believers in Christ had been added to the Church, it is correct to refer to those Jewish believers who had accepted the New Covenant with God (through Christ having borne God's wrath against mankind, not only 'Israel'), as Israel. They are Israel through being born of the Spirit; they are a new nation, with a new definition of Jewishness (Rom 2:28, 29).

i am thinking of those who are yet Jews outwardly and haven't come to Christ yet in the sense of what Paul said when he said they are not all Israel who are of Israel. There is the Israel which is born of the Spirit which we are a part of, and that which is natural and from which will come some of those who make up the Israel of God. My thing is that in our being grafted into Israel we don't forget that Israel will too be grafted into Israel.

Now, going back to the nations in Rev 7:9, these are only representatives, defined by their first birth and not by their second birth. So, they are not whole nations.

when i talked about whole nations being saved i meant this as the fullness of the people of God for that nation, i excluded the rest who remained unsaved so we are saying the same thing from a different viewpoint.

As far as looking at the OT in the light of the NT, I have been brought up on this for the last 3 decades, and what it does is, show up the total redefinition of salvation, which was effected through Christ's work.

indeed!

Also, I hope you are being as careful as I am, not to mix the term OT and Old Covenant, and NT and New Covenant, as that too, is confusing.

i am trying to! see to me it is all very clear in my mind although sometimes it may not come out that way in my posts! all i bless God for His Mercy.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Sis Dorcas

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

I've stopped laughing now... because I can't believe you ever thought I'd forgotten.... as in many posts I've drawn attention to the fact that the first Jews to believe were the beginning of true Israel in the Spirit, the people God has been longing to bring to Himself for centuries.

and how long pray tell did you laugh sis? :-P now that my point has been made ABUNDANTLY clear...:-P you best not forget it this time :-P

You know, bro, I think part of my problem with the way not just you but many others in similar discussions phrase things, is that y'all talk in the future tense, like none of this has happened yet.

you know sis, i suppose that we present that aspect of it and neglect that the point of our Salvation really is somewhere in the Heart of God, before creation since this is when Christ was slain. All Israel has been Saved since then but awaits the realization of what God has already determined. it is future in the sense that we haven't seen the full physical manifestation of it and yet it is past and present too just as Christ was, is and is to come. kinda like how we have always been in Heavenly Places since that point of our Salvation, we are there now as Paul says we are and yet we await for His Return to take us there...

To me, that is completely off the wall, because the rest of the time y'all are talking like the world is going to end the day after tomorrow, and a whole lot of prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.

to be sure there is much yet awaiting fulfilment in terms of the realization in the physical of what God has determined from before time. Of course how long it will take is longer than most people anticipate...it will be within our lifetime i believe but not like...tomorrow...there is the 7 yrs of the trib etc...

One of my main intentions in these discussions, is to convey to all reading, that a great deal of prophecy is being fulfilled while we type, and has been fulfilled before our great grandaddies were a twinkle in their daddy's eye.

i see that too, we agree there sis, perhaps it would have helped if you said so sooner so i could cop to it sooner... :-P

So bro IRONMAN, it is a relief to find we are closer than you thought.

wait a minute!!! how about we're closer than you thought also? :-P 8-) :smart:

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

I just wanted to check that your 'All Isreal' is what we've been talking about... that when us gentiles are saved, and become part of the spiritual Israel, there are parts of the nation\\people 'of Israel', which, like the parts of other nations which we discussed from Rev 7:9 won't be saved, because they didn't believe either?

yes indeed.

Do you ever read the very end of Acts 2, and think about what it might mean for today's churches if we were to recapture that first century clarity?

sis, i long for the day in which we Christians will be like the brethren of old in those days of Acts 1 and 2. do i think about what that would be like, well i am in a sense consumed by it. Everywhere i go i find us treating one another so poorly (i am guilty also) that i am grieved deeply at the way things are so i press into God to make me such a saint.

Let's just say I'm glad we are now using similar language to communicate similar ideas.

i suppose so! :-P

It seems we were both tackling what the other person wasn't saying, or, we weren't giving the other person credit for greater context to their thought than was being expressed in writing...

i believe this to be true, bless God for the Beauty and Utility of Fellowship.AMEN.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

What do you mean when you say we are part of spiritual Israel?

In Christ: Phillip

sis D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said sis D

The answer to this began to unfold on p8, but it is entangled in my conversation with IRONMAN, in which he proposed that Jewish and gentile believers each carry a separate 'destiny' in the Church, which he likens to the different functions Paul describes in 1 Cor 12, where Paul likens the Church to a body.

sis, didn't i later on say that what i meant was not a separation but a distinction in that we are all 1 but have unique functions individually in bringing Glory to God because His Glory is Manifold?

I have long understood that the destiny of gentile believers is identical in Christ, to what Jewish believers expect to receive. In other words, together (Jewish and gentile believers), we are 'Israel', God's 'chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, [to] proclaim the praises of Him who called [us] out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 11 ... sojourners and pilgrims ...' (1 Peter 2)

yes, i have no qualms with that, we all share in the promise but that doesn't negate or minimize that we have different roles in bringing Him Glory. The Destiny is Christ being formed in us do you see that? i admit my expression of this concept has probably been the cause of the confusion and through you i have been able to better express it. so i guess what i have been saying all along is that the origin (whether Jewish or Gentile) of the believer allows God to Manifest Himself in a unique way which is distinct. The destiny then in that sense is uniqute for Gentiles and Jews and for men and women because we are all distinct even in Christ for the Purpose of the Manifold Manifestation of His Glory in each of us.

you said also:

So far, although IRONMAN and I have come a long way and discovered we agree on something, he has not found New Testament texts to back up the idea he was promoting before p8.

i think the last part of what you said is a bit of stretch sis. i may have bungled in expressing properly what was clear in my mind but surely the scriptures i brought forth should have made it a bit plainer what i was getting at? We are all members of 1 Body with differing functions. i expressed that as best i could when i related what God has called for me to do in Zimbabwe because i am a Zimbabwean. you couldn't do that because there are some things unique to my experience which you don't have. in the end the Destiny is the formation of Christ in us, the work which is before us all is unique to each of us.

Now Sis, God isn't done with the Jew yet and i believe we both know this.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis D Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i believe that Romans 11 is a scripture which communicates perferctly what i have been trying to say.

Paul says:

[b]1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.[/b]

Paul is speaking here of His Jewish heritage and his recognition of it in Salvation in Christ. Paul then says this:

[b]11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing F43 of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? [/b]

what do you think that means? what do you think of Romans 11?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

SIS dorcas
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

To both of you I say this... that the step of faith by which a man or woman is born again, necessarily connects them to Christ's death. I'm sure we agree.

indeed we do.

But if you don't hold on to Christ's death in your subsequent expositions, you lose the whole meaning of what Paul said repeatedly all through his epistles.

who's letting go of Christ's death? :-? who could? :-?

I have explained the importance of new birth in the preceding posts in this thread, which show how believers become all that God promised Israel in Exodus 19 onwards.

ok.

Since Christ came and inaugurated a new and living way to heaven for us, I believe Jews are living on borrowed time in every natural generation, if they don't accept their Messiah; just as I believe gentiles are living on borrowed time if they reject their Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

i agree.

But I accept that God had a special relationship with Jews until Jesus came, and that He still loves to see 'Jews' finding salvation.

i would say God the Father still has a special relationship with Israel, one which is such that He will not let them perish but bring them to Salvation in by opening their eyes to Salvation. i think also the relationship is dear enough to Him that He warns us unnatural branches not to boast againt the natural ones lest we be burned ourselves like the natural ones...He doesn't say the converse...

What I cannot agree as an interpretation of scripture, is that after new birth, Jews carry on as before - making claims for their own importance or mission or purposes - in Christ. I do not believe the New Testament supports this view in a general way. I would go further; the New Testament most particularly does not support this view in any way at all.

whose interpretation is that though? i don't agree with it either. i mean if a Jew were to come to Christ, he could not remain as he was before, if anyone meets Christ, how could he remain unchanged.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

thanks for your last post sis.i think that puts it all in order. Have you any thoughts on what you have read in Ezekiel yet?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis Dorcas
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Brother, seriously, have all my posts really left you with the impression that I don't think God still has 'a relationship' with unsaved Israel?

for some reason this is what i thought till your last post before this one in which you mentioned that.

It has been a growing concern that you're unable to show from the New Testament, the 'distinction' you believe is given to Jews in the Church; therefore, I've taken a lot of time today, to pull together a few thoughts, based on your longer post to me, above.

sis, i wonder about the 144000 from the 12 Tribes of Israel in Rev 7 and then in Rev 14 the 144000 which are the firstfruits of men to the Lamb. is this not a distinction along the lines i am thinking of? it is not said of the latter 144000 which tribe they are from if any so what do you figure that means?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

When Israel rules again, where will they rule?

Where will the Church the Body of Christ be?

Is not a Jew and a Gentile the Body of Christ?

How can the Body of Christ be the Israel He is going to be King of?

In Christ there is neither circumcision of uncircumcision, that is Jewish Israel or non Jewish Gentile.

Male of female, bond or free, etc.

How can the Body of Christ as new creatures in Christ, son's of God, God's birthed children, be Israel?

Colossians 3:10-11 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Who created the new man?

Who is renewing us in knowledge?

By who's Mind, in who's Mind?

Christ is all in all. Christ is not Israel and either is the Christian.

In Christ: PHillip

Quote:

I have long understood that the destiny of gentile believers is identical in Christ, to what Jewish believers expect to receive. In other words, together (Jewish and gentile believers), we are 'Israel', God's 'chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, [to] proclaim the praises of Him who called [us] out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 11 ... sojourners and pilgrims ...' (1 Peter 2)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you look up "Nation", it certainly is not Israel. Strong's Greek Dictionary
1484. ethnos
Search for G1484 in KJVSL
eqnoV ethnos eth'-nos
probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

"NON JEWISH"

In Christ: Phillip

Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Whom is no guile for?

Revelation 14:4-5 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Who are God's people? Israel. Who are the Lambs first fruits in the Millennial Kingdom?
The 144,000.

Who are the Lambs first fruits now, being already seated in Christ with God? The Christian, The Body of Christ, His Church. Not Israel unless it be an individual Jew that believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is saved and now no longer a Jew, but a new race of People, a new creation Nation, Christ-ones, Christians.
Son's of God, because of the Son of God. Not Israel the People of God. Jdg 20:2 And the chief of all the people, [even] of all the tribes of Israel, presented themselves in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand footmen that drew sword.

In Christ: Phillip

I totally understand where you are coming from, and it is a thing that brings us together with The People of God, Israel. It was Israel's pride and arrogance that brought their fall. If we as Christians are branded as spiritual Israel the scary part is that we will become in pride and arrogance as they and begin to do what many churches are doing and caring on the outward ceremonial and works of the law that would make them pleasing to God. We know this is not the Body of Christ and not our religious plight. We are to recognize that Jesus Christ is our all. We are to worship God in the Spirit not in our religious works and props, as all that the Jews still use in their Sabbaths worship and stators and all their ceremonially use of foods and instruments in their application of the Law.

This is what Paul fought all of his whole ministry;

Galatians 2:3-15 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.

Let us not live as do the Jews, even to those that are in Christ, they have still an arrogance and thinking they are better than Gentile Christians. This is wrong and Paul personally confronted Peter about it and to his face before all present told him this is not right, trying to make Gentile Christians as physical and spiritual Israel.

In Christ: Phillip

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

dorcas wrote:

What you said before this, I'll come to, after.

He doesn't say the converse...

I'd like to take this that you said, first.

The pivot for Paul's turning his preaching ministry to the gentiles, was not that no gentiles had ever been saved by that point in time, (Acts 10), but that the Jews of that generation - crowds of individuals - had rejected the gospel of 'Christ crucified'.

Acts 13:46, 47
Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

In the above scripture, I notice Paul and Barnabas [i][b]'grew bold'[/i][/b] before they could make that statement. It wasn't [i]natural[/i] to them to turn to the gentiles.

Acts 14:27
Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had [u]opened the door of faith[/u] to the Gentiles. (This implies the door of faith to the Jews\\Israel had already been opened.)

In Ephesians 2, Paul first alludes to the natural gentile and [i]natural Israel[/i], who are united in Christ through the Spirit.

[color=006699]11 Therefore remember that [u]you, once Gentiles in the flesh[/u] -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands -- 12 that [b]at that time you were without Christ[/b], being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

13 But now in Christ Jesus you [u]who once were far off[/u] have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For [u]He Himself is our peace, who [b]has made both one[/b][/u], and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, [i]that is,[/i] the law of commandments [i]contained[/i] in ordinances, [b]so as to create in Himself one new man [i]from[/i] the two[/b], [i]thus[/i] making peace, 16 [u]and[/u] that He might reconcile them both to God [u]in one body through the cross[/u], thereby putting to death the enmity.

17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.

18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.[/color]

Please notice Paul's use of the phrase 'in the flesh' (vv 11 and 12) is applied both to gentiles and Jews, the latter with reference to their physical circumcision.

A gentile 'in the flesh' who came to faith in Christ, also lost his natural identity, by becoming part of 'the commonwealth of Israel'.

This is not merely implied by Paul, but clearly stated in v 12, where being 'without Christ' made them 'strangers from the commonwealth of Israel'. But, since circumcision no longer saves the Jew, it cannot be Israel of 'the flesh' into which gentiles are joined; it must be to the new Israel of the Spirit.

Paul states clearly that gentiles had had 'no hope and [i]were[/i] without God in the world' at the end of v 12. By default, this is also a clear statement that [i]natural Israel[/i]) had enjoyed those 'covenants of promise' in their relationshp with God [i]before[/i] Christ.

But now[/u], Paul states clearly v 13, that the blood of Christ has brought the gentiles [u]near[/u], and [u]in Christ Himself[/u] (v 14) the separation between [i]natural Israel[/i] and (natural) gentiles, which had developed into a wall (- a wall with a life of its own, we learn from roadsign's thread 'God's Plan for Peace and Unity') [b]IS[/b] broken down.

This happened on the cross. This means that wall doesn't exist any more in God's heaven, or in the Spirit, or in the Father's heart and mind, and if we have our minds renewed according to that same Spirit [i]today[/i], that wall will cease to exist in our thinking also. Christ is not divided (1 Cor 1:10 - 13).

In v 13, gentiles are now [u]as near as Jews[/u], because they are 'in Christ' - to the extent that elsewhere Paul states 'there is no difference'. Christ has 'made both one' early in v 14 backed up by a fuller explanation of how they are now part of the 'one body', v 16.

v 17 is particularly interesting as a rebuttal of your comment above: [color=006699]And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.[/color]

To whom did Christ [i][b]preach[/i][/b]?

When did He preach 'to those who were [u]near'[/u]?

(Another question might be, [i]how[/i] did He preach to them?)

The gospel accounts and Paul are clear, that [i]because[/i] they were 'near' through 'the covenants of promise', Christ Himself preached to [i]natural Israel[/i]. He had made these covenants with the fathers (see below), and the apostles were obeying His last commission to them - Matt 28:19, 20 - by now preaching the New Covenant.

contd.

wow! i see more clearly now.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

I wonder if you are missing something in this statement here, that spiritual Israel the 'natural ones' must be grafted in also, to their 'own' olive tree - Christ the Root - through faith in Him.

ah, i was looking at natural Israel being grafted back in...well why did Paul not say "grafted in" rather than "grafted back in"? or is it that Paul is saying that Israel was always connected to the Root? if Israel is grafted back into the Spiritual Israel as we have been grafted in, i assume that this grafting back in is after a transformation of what ISrael is from Natural to Spiritual?

in the end though, we ought to always have before us the Grace and Mercy of God as the reason for our Salvation lest we get cut off...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Another reason Jesus may have mentioned these things to John and the Church, is that he was exiled at the time of this revelation, and like God telling Elijah He had reserved 7000 to Himself, who had not bowed the knee to Baal, it would have been an encouragement to John, as it is to us of a distant generation, to have Jesus' word that other believers would and will endure to the end. (They had already tried to kill John and failed... )

mmm, i never thought of that...so to me it wasn't that complicated, i just thought it was a distinction between Jew and Gentile in what God had determined for each to do...something to consider here. thanks sis D

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i thank God, as you should also for what He has shown me through this dialogue.

I realised when I was alluding to Acts 2, and the many nationalities of Jews who joined the Church on the day of Pentecost, that here was another aspect of the early Church which disappears completely in the New Testament. Its multi-ethnic diversity is hardly ever mentioned. All the exposition is to show how the law is no longer the way we please God, but faith is.

i guess sis we can agree that the disappearence of enthinicity as far as being mentioned in the Church doesn't mean a lack of relevance but rather the bringing to the fore of what is Chief. Ethnicity has its place and function but it is NOT to be chief over our Heavenly Ethinicity. i think of all the different tongues and tribes and nations which will be represented in Heaven each of which brings forth a unique Aspect of God like a choir singing in unison and perfect harmony.

The crossover of that discussion at the point Abram is chosen - but not yet circumcised - undercuts any claim Jews could have on a 'distinction' from gentiles. The whole of Paul's thesis is that God chose Abram before there were any 'Jews' - before Jacob had been born. 'Israel' did not exist except in God.

i thought the distinction was always plain in the old covenant? or is it that the thing Paul is saying is that the distinction isn't something which has its source in Jewry but has it's source in God Himself who made the distinction?

In these portions of scripture, it is pretty clear that Jesus was looking for people in whom His word has a place. That is what would distinguish them.

indeed, to be something beyond Jews in the flesh but to be of the Spirit of God. that is a whole different ball of wax...

On the matter of the importance God places on natural birth nationality, I do agree that He cares there be representatives of each, in heaven with Him. I believe that has more to do with His heart, calling to His creation, than our part in responding to Him.

this is more what i was thinking along the lines of as far as distinction goes but i digress...what you said at the end blessed me so. Yes in the end Salvation is a matter which has to do with His Heart because if He didn't show us Mercy, there could be no Salvation. If He didn't quicken us, we could in nowise respond to Him in the appropriate manner so as to receive the Gift.

There are many other quotes from the gospels, which endorse the perspective Jesus was bringing to Israel in His time, like 'My kingdom is not of this world.' It wouldn't matter if one thought that he meant His kingdom is of the next world, or, that it is completely invisible: it represents an unmistably emphatic disconnect with earthly Israel.

True sis.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

sis D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Paul did say 'grafted back in' in reference to those Jews who had been broken off through unbelief. One thing you have to acknowledge with Jews, is they don't do much by halves. It's pretty much all or nothing. So if they don't believe, they are very sure they don't! But the grace of God is, that He has set an open Door now, for those who would change their minds.

well sis you're dead on there...if the Jews were really about God, they sure were but if they were about being heathen...they threw down there too...i guess this is about being hot vs cold vs lukewarm and we know God prefers the former to the latter...

i think what you said here:

I think if we try to imagine what it was like to have been there living through these changes as they became available over a number of years, we see that whereas someone like Paul had definitely not believed in Christ, the disciples always had. And who cannot identify with Nathaniel and his 'Can anything good come out of Nazareth?' Yet Jesus commended him for his honesty, saying ' "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!" (John 1:46, 47)

in reference to what was said to Nathaniel, God would rather us be honest than for us to try and bovine excrement Him...He is not mocked...

I agree with your assumption. Israel as a whole, has not always been connected to the Root. But, I have a strong impression that some Christians believe this is what Paul means, when he refers to their 'own' olive tree. I don't know how they can conclude this while keeping the New Covenant out of their analysis.

right, since Paul does say that they are not all of Israel who are Israel...though i wonder if most Christians aren't comfortable of Israel suffering the consequences of failing to come to Christ and so make loopholes for her. to be sure, God isn't done with her yet and will bring her through...by way of fire and i fear most of us don't want that because we know if Israel gets fire, so will we...

i think the re-Grafting in of Israel is like this. Israel was connected to the Root by the Law before Christ came. Now that connection was severed and to be reconnected to the Root, they must come through Christ (this is a New Covenant, a transformation of Israel from being a physical nation to one that is Spiritual and includes us) and so they are being grafted back into a connection which they had under better terms.

make sense?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

SIS D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Well, I'd be interested to hear if you'd be willing to share what has changed in your thinking....?

well, it's kinda like we were seeing the same thing in slightly different light so certain things were highlighted for me from your perspective which i hadn't seen before.

from the scriptures you posted, it seems there is a definite reference to a spiritual aspect which is Israel, namely Psalm 73:1 and a physical one in Isaiah 47. However the 2 can't be separated.

both renderings are valid as it was the same SPirit which Inspired them, the Redeemer has come to Zion for those who indeed will turn from their transgressions. Also the Redeemer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodliness from Jacob via His atoning sacrifice. this is indeed how Israel will be Saved...

God is Good.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Is not the Bride of Christ His Body, the Church given Him by the Father.

Is not the Bride of God, Israel whom He has divorced.

"Grafted back in"?????

The Bride of Christ, The Church, Heavenly.

The Bride of God, Israel, earthly.

Raptured. Heavenly. Bride of Christ. The Word In us, as the Seed of the Father. Born Again.

Israel, His remnant Ruled over by King Jesus from David's throne. Earthly, God's Word written in their hearts.

In Christ: Phillip

Jesus said it Himself.

Matthew 13:56-58 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Paul spoke this one word: That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and believing in Him would give us new life in Him being born again of Spirit and the Water of Life. Col 1:27 and Gal 2:20

Acts 28:23-29 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

This puts the whole of Scripture in view and divides the word of truth, that we might understand the whole of God's Plan which He had already accomplished in Christ Jesus, that is to put Himself in His own birthed Children by the Son.

Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Praise God He has seen fit to reveal His plan.

In Christ: Phillip

sis D Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

it was interesting that you brought up the issue of the children of the prince not necessarily being blood children. i had initially brought up that whole matter because that would be the first thing to enter into the minds of most people, "if this prince is Jesus, how is it He has children?" so you have brought up what could be a very likely scenario in which the children of the Prince are disciples of His.

something to consider.

also i do believe that the temple in question can and will be constructed. it seems impossible because of the dome of the rock and all but you know how with man things are impossible but with God...

i realize this view is new to you and something different to consider and i pray as we go back and forth that God clears this up for us all.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEM.

sis D
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

well indeed the structure Ezekiel describes is large...very large and somewhat different to what the Jews at the temple institute now have in mind. There are however some aspects of this proposed temple which are the same as in Ezekiel's vision. so it's not a completely Solomonic temple, in fact it is more like the second temple with certain aspects of it like Ezekiel's temple. the topography of Jerusalem and that area will be different, the borders of Israel themselves will be different too.

i don't think it an impossible thing to build should God build it, after all the New Jerusalem is also a structure which is some 1500 miles cubed!

still much to consider and seek God for understanding...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

--- Hey Sis Dorcas ...

Praise God ... i had no idea you and bro Ironman were still so into this ...

i shouldn't be surprised tho because it seems to me our Lord has bro I concerned with this part of Ezekiel much in the same manner and intensity as (i believe) He had me during the writing of "The Called", "God On Earth" and the beginning of "The Revelation Revealed" for just over a two year period ...

Praise God for this forum and bro I's having someone to discuss such matters with as in my case the prophetic subject matter i was dealing with at that time was so far over the head of my peers and/or just plain scared the pastors that i knew ... Come to think of it it was about around the time of my discovering "The Prince" during my initial research for "The Revelation Revealed" that the Power that motivated me to dig, and ponder, and pray and pry into the prophets just completely left me in the same abrupt manner as when He first jumped on me ... He like just switched me off of one thing, and then began to manuever me and empower me into another direction that had to do with bringing "words" to my pastor re: REPENTANCE & REVIVAL and praying toward such, now it's changed again and it's about being prepared to explain and console in our soon time of correction ... i've digressed some here tho, so in reference to your other questions regarding "The Prince" , etc., i have to confess i haven't the slightest revelations, nor any speculations on the matters ... i went on a tear when i first learned of "The Prince" and was much surprised to find out that none of the pastors i knew had ever heard of him, so they we're of no help and so i'm still in the dark on much of this Ezekiel subject matter and again have no unction or power to even be concerned with its mysteries at this point ... Actually i'm kinda pre-occupied with the winding down toward culmination of all that i've believed to have heard of our Lord for the past 20+ years ... Bro Ironman too is in this same boat, but like myself when i first started out he is young and full of vim and vigor with his Holy Ghost power, as i on the otherhand have gotten to be a senior citizen and have heard of our Lord at the beginning of 2007 that i'd done all that He's required of me to do on this side of 2008 and that i'm to be at rest in My Waiting Room Experience ... But praise God that (i believe) He has bro I and you on the case and so what i wrote back on page 7 still applies ---

Quote:
"i'm just gonna sit back and read as you and bro Ironman, and the other heavy hitters on this subject go back and forth, and see if i can learn something one way or the other ..."

Who knows, perhaps the reason why He stopped me so abruptly back then in my Ezekiel questions is that i'd not learn the rest until a future time, and perhaps yours and Bro I's quest may provide answers to the completing of the third book of my trilogy ...

Regarding Ezekiel's Temple i found this website that may add to yours and Bro I's conversation

[b]The Millennial Temple[/b]
http://www.sonstoglory.com/ThirdTempleEzekielsMillennialTemple.htm ---

Sis Dorcas you wrote;
"I looooong time ago, you asked me if I'd read Ezekiel 40 - 48. Well, I have now, and some of the converation on p7 of this thread makes a little more sense. And, I think I also understand that there is a whole construct around Israel in the American church to which I've never been exposed in a UK church. Seriously."

---Amen ... i can certainly see that ... It seems to me that once Britain handed Israel off to the US to take care of she's been our baby (at first politically) ever since, and subsequently has also been adopted by evangelical Christianity here in the States ... God does work in mysterious ways via individuals and nations His wonders to perform ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus our Lord :-D ---

I believe that the Temple EZk speaks of is a commemoration of the Cross. Much like we in the NT partake of the Lord's supper. Jesus said do this in memory of me even so I believe that when the sacrifices are made during the millennium it will be worshiping in truth and Spirit, understanding all that the old testament sacrifices truly ment. I believe that it's clear that the prince is Jesus as the New Testament says he is the Prince of life and in many ways is he described metaphorically.

Quote:
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For "himself and all the people of the land" does this prince prepare a sin offering ... Christ is without sin ... He's God ...
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A scriptural reference was not given for me to try and comment on concerning the quote above. It's important to study scripture in context and sometimes even the greek or hebrew?

You're right Jesus is God the son and without sin and the Bible tells us that by Him all things were made that are made. You are on the right foundation but the devil would try to confuse the Church. As I read more on this website it seems to me there are many who are hungry for truth from the Word of God. Let us keep this hunger let us keep also on the true foundation. I believe that the Lord will be explaining things in his word throughout eternity because it's the word of God and eternal.
The Lord bless you