Is the Prophetic Movement Revival in our day??!

Do you think the new prophetic movement is the revival in our day. It seems it used to be the reformers, the great awakenings, the Pentecostals, and now it seems to be the Prophetic movement that is stirring things. In this movement are at it’s head God TV, Rick Joyner, Lou Engle, Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson, and some others.

God TV seems to be the new, and improved, and a bit reformed TBN. They say they don’t agree with much that the televangelist have done. They want to have it to be done with a revival of the arts or top notch culture technology. Also, as they say, so many tried to get TV in Europe and none could, not even big Christian corporations with much money/. But, that they miraculously did just 2 poor people if you read there book.

Rick Joyner is said to throw forth big prophecy and has a hard climactic insightful preaching on the end of the age and its army.

Lou Engle is a zealous guy who is continually rocking in prayer and preaching hard. He started the justice house of prayer across from a major government building in Washington DC. He also, established the Call a meeting that comes together and fasts and prays for revival and repentance, recently fasted for 40 days.

Mike Bickle was used to start the International House of Prayer 7 years ago. It is a young adult movement with over 500 full time prayer missionaries. IHOP seems to be leading the nation in prayer. These houses are landing all over the place in cities and on college campuses and it is even now influencing the great Korean prayer movement. The Korean’s recently stated that they are going to open 30 house’s of prayer and 10 of them on the border of North Korea. People are getting a 24/7 stream off the internet of the prayer house. As I heard recently even people in the underground Church of China are watching it. There is also something called the Prophetic History or Encountering Jesus of IHOP that has some grandiose claims. It is said that prophecies were made with confirmations before not only the audience of a couple people, but a church. Guys in this history were men like Paul Cain and Bob Jones who claim to have had some angelic visitation and direct spoken words to them of the end of the age. Shortly, a couple things are: presidential elections being predicted, communism falling when no one expected it, the house of prayer being established with details foretold. Even, Katz and Ravenhill were mixed in this in the early stages. And to conclude Toronto and Brownsville is all also a part of this. Some say things were bad, some good, and some say it was good with mixed warfare and emotionalism. Many have testimonies of changed lives from those places. Even if you don’t buy into the laughing stuff is it all that bad if they are laughing with good motives to rejoice. I wouldn’t know how to justify animal noises and such and wouldn’t though, yet I am not at this time trying to give my own view.

Bill Johnson also has a Church in Redding California. It is stated that they see healing regularly. For example a woman who was deaf in a grocery store was healed and then the clerk saw it all cried and said this is God and let the guy who did the healing talk on the microphone to the store and people came forward and he preached the gospel. Yet, don’t let me forget also the extreme’s that are going on like manifestations of gold dust, angel feathers, oil and blood in hands, and the like :-( .

All of these people have things in common and are linked in ministry. I could say a few more things but this is not a treatise on the subject but just a brief questioning paragraph for discussion.

Here is a link to the audio of Bickle’s Encountering Jesus Prophetic history for you to listen to, and also a link to a short video trailer of the Prophetic movement, and a couple other things:

Audio Prophetic History "Encountering Jesus"
[url=http://mikebickleteachings.blogspot.com/]click here[/url]

Prophetic Movement Trailer
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7sSZ7Ux3Hg]click here[/url]

Lou Engle preaching hard at IHOP
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifi90i6XzlM]click here[/url]

The Call 07/07/07 "repent and fast"
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDMQV04j610]click here[/url]

p.s. I hope that this will lead to awareness, clarity, and edification.

Hi Davidt. How are you?

I do not know much about these men that you have mentioned. I hope that they are all godly and bring honor and glory to God.

For me, in my own devotions, the words of the prophet Jeremiah have spoken so strongly the last weeks and months. The entire 23rd chapter seems to shout at us today. It seems to shout at us today.

Chris

I believe those commonly embraced and celebrated within the so-called "prophetic movement" are false through and through. I don't think it takes much discernment to see through a lot of the hype. Sadly though, many people fall for it. While I believe in modern day prophets, I don't believe any of the individuals you listed are from God. Some of them perhaps had a genuine calling, but have long since departed from it.

I cannot recommend enough the following sermon by a prophetic minister by the name of Art Katz, available on this web site:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=5806](The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy) Against False Prophets[/url]

His message was given shortly after the fall of the famous "prophet," Paul Cain, who was caught drunk and having a homosexual relationship with another man.

Hi Davidt,

No, I do not think that this prophetic movement is revival. I think that Satan is very clever and he is always changing things to appear to be the new improved thing. I've spent some time around people who have worked directly for some of the names mentioned above. These people seem so genuine and believe so much in what they are doing, but they are still part of the same old, corrupt humanistic system. It all sounds good, but it is a strong dilusion.

Hey david!

for anyone to say the church is not in a major prohetic move of God is absolutely ridiculous!

Everyone person you just stated preach Jesus, Died, and rose again, they preach the forgiveness of sins, they preach intimacy with God. How could we ever stand back and point our finger saying false prophet?

I know Lou Engle personally, I fasted and prayed with him in Boston for 40 days, and he fasts prayers more fervently than the fathers of prayer throughout history, one day we will look back and say Lou Engle was a mighty man of God who led a generation back to God. And to say that he preaches hard is a difficult statement when compared to our "heroes" of Jonathan edwards, em bounds, and Charles Finney.

It breaks my heart that we can study history and see the christian mystics and love and adore their stories with full faith, but point our finger in accusation to the current moves of God on the earth today.

When John the baptist asked if Jesus was the messiah, his disciples came back and said "the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk..."

Lets judge the fruit friends... when was the last time you gathered 80,000 people in a stadium to fast and pray for a generation, when was the last time you prayed for someone in a wheelchair and they got up and walked. Revival is here for today, not just in a dusty text books.

peace and love, keep your heart and mind open, let us not harden our hearts tas the jews did in the rebellion.

These 'prophetic-movement' men do not fit the bill of a biblical prophet. There is too much glitz, too many cameras, too many book tours... A good measuring stick is this, if anyone goes out of their way to call themselves a prophet, they're not.

Just for a refresher:

[b]Picture of a Prophet[/b]
By Leonard Ravenhill (Originally Published in the book 'America is too young to die' 1975)

The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.

Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, "No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected." The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his "brand name."

The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him "Man of the year" when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!

The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin-Sparks once said, "has almost always been that of recovery."

The prophet is God's detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity. Compromise is not known to him.
He has no price tags.
He is totally "otherworldly."
He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.
He marches to another drummer!
He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.
He is a "seer" who comes to lead the blind.
He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a "thus saith
the Lord."
He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of
impending judgment.
He lives in "splendid isolation."
He is forthright and outright, but he claims no birthright.
His message is "repent, be reconciled to God or else...!"
His prophecies are parried.
His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.
He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.
He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!
He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with
epitaphs when dead.
He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few "make the grade" in his class.
He is friendless while living and famous when dead.
He is against the establishment in ministry; then he is established as a saint
by posterity.
He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of
Life to those who listen.
He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.
He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.
He announces, pronounces, and denounces!
He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.
He talks to men about God.
He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.
He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.
He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in
the marketplace.
He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual.
He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.
He is ordained of God but disdained by men.

Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recover its strength, or that we save face over the Watergate affair, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!

I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the "seven years of plenty" are over for us. The "seven years of famine" are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a FAMINE OF THE HEARING OF THE WORDS OF GOD (Amos 8:11).

Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. "Come-outers" have "come out" and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?

GOD'S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.

There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.

Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.
Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and
stagnant "churchianity."
Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.
Let him, too, say and live, "This ONE thing I do."
Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.
Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself- righteous,
nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting.
Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move
men to God.
Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has
received the order of the day.
Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the
clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism.
Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision
no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the
wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where
enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.

God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!

once again, all I say let us judge them by their fruit. the word "false prophet" is such a harsh accusation and label to place on men who weep over our generation and point the finger at the cross. And whom also dont claim to be prophets. Not one person listed here in these messages have claimed to be a prophet.

I dont think anyone is claiming to be the prophet isaiah, or jeremiah. We're not in the old testament anymore, and we dont wear camels hair and eat locusts. We are in a new day, and the use of cameras, mass distribution, and the internet are being used as tools to equip the body of christ.

Judge them by their fruit.

All these "prophets" ascribe to a false doctrine that says modern day prophets don't have to be 100% accurate in what they prophesy to come to pass. People who "miss it" are just considered immature and need room to "grow" in their gifting. Such flies in the face of the clear teaching of Scripture e.g. Deuteronomy 18 which says that if a prophet prophesies something that doesn't come to pass, they didn't hear from God. These guys will tell you themselves they aren't always 100% accurate in their prophecies. Indeed, the "great" Paul Cain, who was regarded as perhaps the greatest "prophet" of our generation didn't claim to even approach such a high percentage of "accuracy."

I'd like to take all these guys, put them together and a room, and give them a great big group hug. When you bear 1/10th the fruit they bear, I may even give you a hug. They are changing the face of the church and the face of the world while people sit and criticize them. You don't like all they teach fine, but look at their fruit please. Sometimes I forget how many people on this website have perfect doctrine...

I forget how many people on this website have perfect doctrine...

Pro 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.

Zec 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

Zec 8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.

hey Jim!
I couldnt agree with you more about the condition of the church, I often attend churches or minister at churches and I just wnat to sit and cry about their condition...

and I would be the last person to cry "revival!".... dude if we're in revival i quit.... im going home and locking myself away. If we're in revival.... revival sucks, haha

But the church is need of revival! Thats why amazing men of God like Lou Engle and Rick Joyner, and bill Johnson have arisen in the earth, to be a voice to the church screaming "wake up!"

your article you posted really bothers me, maybe the person who had the dream was specifically dreaming for his old church, but to make bold statements as strong as "revival will not come to the church" is not the heart of God, I know my King is coming back for a beautiful spotless glorified bride. So she better see revival or buddy we're toast......

brother jdickson,

brother, just like not all israel is the true israel, not all church is the true church. what we need is for the church of God (the living stones that God is building) to cry out loud for revival and for God's Spirit to convict our hearts and humble ourselves before Him. let us preach and proclaim in the streets as well as in the building so that by God's grace, we may bring those to Christ who would not have otherwise come to Him.

When you bear 1/10th the fruit they bear, I may even give you a hug.

They bear no fruit.

*edit*

And any fruit they do bear is like a false sign or lying wonder. That is, it exists only to further a lie and deceive. Scripture is clear, if a prophet prophesies something that does not come to pass, that prophet did not hear from God, as in fact, false. That's not to say there is no room for repentance for such an individual and being used by God. But it is hardly a small and trivial thing to "miss it." And "missing it" is something that these men have done time and time again, and just *shrug* things off like they never happened. Jesus said it is out of the abundance of the heart that a man speaks. And to utter a false prophecy under the guise of giving a true one, shows just how crooked one's heart is. Even if they "mean well." Abraham meant well, and the world has been plagued by the fruit of Ishmael ever since.

And for a price you can go to their prophecy seminars and learn "how-to" prophesy. Such is entirely foreign to Scripture. And sadly, there are many, such as some of you, who probably go to these seminars and read their books. There is a price to pay to flow in the prophetic, but that isn't the cost of a weekend seminar, conference, or book. The price to pay is in the cross alone.

Paul Cain
Bob Jones
Cindy Jacobs
Kim Clement
Dutch Sheets
Rick Joyner
C. Peter Wagner
Steve Shultz

... and the list could go on. I've stopped actively following the prophetic movement in the last couple of years, so I'm sure there are other names I could add to this list. But be warned, if you greatly admire any of the above people as outstanding ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and as being leading apostolic/prophetic figures today, then you are in danger of being led astray.

Many of you probably like these individuals because they affirm something about you and your ministry. They somehow establish and confirm you, and that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and important. But if you were truly prophetic, as some of you perhaps think yourself to be, you'd see through the hype.

I was reading a lamentation of Amos today, and the worship leaders of his day who were "like David" (Amos 6). But as much as they were like David, they were not Davidic. They were musically talented like David, and had an ability to sing new songs off the cuff. But there was something lacking in their ministries. And that thing was clear to Amos: authenticity. For so long as they "played" music, they were simply "like David." But Davidic they were not.

So are many in the so-called prophetic movement. They are "like David." That is, they say things that sound prophetic. Even in an impressive manner. And "like prophets" they say something that is true and something that "bears fruit." But they are only "like David." But actually being Davidic, they are not.

*double post*

im confused....
you guys are tossing false prophet left and right here, yet not one person has really explained himself......?!

someone please tell me why these men are false prophets!
For those who say the "word of God is better"

theres too words the living word, and the written word, both hasve to be used and discerned. If your just stuck in the bible, then your creating an idol out of it, and your not opening your heart for what God wants to bring for you today.

The prophets of the bible prophesied things that have yet to come to past.....
are they false prophets?

Are the sick being healed? yes.
Are lives being saved? yes
Are people praying because of these men? yes

whos being led astray? those listening to what these men have to say? or those who refuse to believe God is using these people today?

some please just tell me why they are false prophets? someone please tell me why these men are so despised by man on this forum?
-utterly confused

one other quick thing....

concerning my last post, I dont want it to seem that im lessening the value of the word of God. I love it. Ive committed my life to knowing it, its my passion.

but I also know that the word of God is limitted without the Living word of God. the prophetic stirring and utterance.

also please lets be a little more real why these guys are false prophets.

I people are ussing some pretty broad excuses, that can be used against anyone you decide not to like.

concerning spiritual fruit:
"a lying sign and wonder" ???
its fruit! are they doing it in the name of belzebub? or Jesus? its FRUIT!

concerning the coming to past of prophecies:
how many hundreds of years was it before Jesus comes to fulfill the prophecies? some one please go do the math..
isnt it a little early to be throwing out the "it hasnt come to past card?"

also please lets be a little more real why these guys are false prophets.

They are false prophets, because even according to their teachings, they "miss it" from time to time. That is, they predict things to come to pass, and the thing does not. In fact, something else often happens.

concerning the coming to past of prophecies:
how many hundreds of years was it before Jesus comes to fulfill the prophecies? some one please go do the math..
isnt it a little early to be throwing out the "it hasnt come to past card?"

"Hasn't come to pass.... YET" is different than "Didn't come to pass.... PERIOD" To compare the misses of modern day prophets to the "not yet" of Biblical prophets causes me to fear for you. The things I'm talking about are things that were declared would come to pass within such and such time, and when the time came for them to come to pass, did not come to pass. Such is a false prophecy, as Deuteronomy 18 makes clear.

I speak this as one who firmly believes in modern day prophets and the need for prophecy today. But I believe many of the big name guys associated with the prophetic movement, if not all of them, are through and through false. And those who are following them, I fear, are in grave danger of great deception.

Are the sick being healed? yes.
Are lives being saved? yes
Are people praying because of these men? yes

And if they utter false prophecies, does that make them a false prophet? Yes.

Hi everyone.

It is a [b]tremendous[/b] thing to stand before thousands of people(or anyone for that matter) and claim that you are speaking for and on behalf of the Almighty God.

It is a tremendous thing to speak words for the Supreme Being.

The prophet Jeremiah said,

"Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness."

[i]...because of the words of his holiness[/i]

"I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah."

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD."

[i]...they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD[/i]

"They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you."

[i]They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace...[/i]

[i]...and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.[/i]

"For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?"

"I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings."

"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour."

"Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD."

Those are some of the things that the prophet Jeremiah said.

What a tremendous thing to claim you speak for God.

Fasting means nothing.

Praying means nothing.

All our devotion and zeal and furvor means nothing.

All that matters if you claim to be speaking for God is whether or not it is true. That is, is it true, that God Almighty is speaking through you.

The Lord Jesus, the greatest of all prophets said

[b][color=660033]I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.[/color][/b]

And the wisest out of men said

[i]In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin[/i]

Chris

A couple things about fruit. The "fruit of a plant is sometimes not seen until harvest (like a carrot for example). Sometimes the fruit that a tree bears is pretty to look at but not worth a whole lot (like a lilac bush).

Secondly, notice what happened to Moses when he disobeyed God concerning the rock.

Num 20:11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

His disobedience produced good fruit. It also kept him out of the promised land.

That's not to say these are not men of God. I do not know them personally and it's not my job to pronounce judgement on them. I just think we need to be a tad more discerning when it comes to people like this. Chris

concerning the "false prophets" "they missed it....."

have you ever concidered the fact that just because someone may prophecy something doesnt neccessarily mean its going to happen, but means that as the body of christ we have a responsibility to respond to the prophetic word. And the outcome relies on the response of the body?

When a prophet prophecies "revival!" but the people just sit around waiting for it, do you think its going to just happen, or the people have a responsibility to respond?

False prophet? or irresponsive body?

Its amazing how we can play "armchair" quarterback and throw accusations against men of God pressing in (imperfectly....sure!) for the kingdom of God, while we sit down at our computers and say "strike one! they missed it" another false prophet right?

Believe me, Im my own person, I dont chase everyone that calls himself a prophet, i dont chase the hype, but I do know when someone is bearing fruit i their ministry and they are.

Why dont you get your hands on some teachings and just listen and discern for yourself.

one other thing. Please tell me who has confessed themselves as a prophet? I can't say any of these men (except kim clement) throw the word "prophet" around flippently, unlike many throw "false prophet" around.

Im with Jdickson here, fruit is fruit. I understand there will be many who perform false signs and wonders etc, but that doesn't mean all sings and wonders are false. Honestly, none of these men that I am aware of have claimed to be in the office of an OLD TESTAMENT prophet. But perhaps they have a prophetic gift. There is a difference between holding the office of prophet and bearing a prophetic gift. If you're going to say these men are false prophets because perhaps they misused their giftings and made a mistake, then I'm going to have to say any time you're a false-teacher-preacher-giver-encourager-etc all the times you've missused your giftings. If you have the gift of generosity and fail to give generously because of pride etc. are you any less guilty than them? Or an encourager who fails to use his gift and someone goes on discouraged, are they any less guilty? These men have giftings, which ever one of us has never made a mistake with our giftings should be the first to cast a stone at them. I don't mean this in a mean way, but the same spirit that works in you works in me, and works in them. They aren't against Christ, who they must be for him. If you can stand up and tell me you've never made a mistake in your gift of discernment or what ever else, then I will listen to your rebukes of these men. Then I'll probably realize you're Jesus and hug you and worship you. All jokes aside, I once again say, these men are changing the world for the better, what are we doing to further the kingdom?

have you ever concidered the fact that just because someone may prophecy something doesnt neccessarily mean its going to happen, but means that as the body of christ we have a responsibility to respond to the prophetic word. And the outcome relies on the response of the body?

Indeed, and the Scriptures teach things about conditional words of prophecy given to people groups:

Jeremiah 18:7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.

And such can be clearly demonstrated in the prophetic ministry of Jonah, who prophesied that Nineveh would fall in 40 days, but it did not, because the people had repented. So, indeed, there are conditional words of prophecy, even when, like in Jonah's case, such is not stated in the prophecy itself (as Jonah gave no message of hope, simply judgment).

However, such conditional words only give the impression of a "missed word." When in actuality, the word was not missed. It was given as the Lord gave it. And since all words given are given in light of the whole counsel of God's word, then they will act accordingly.

However, this is not the nature of all words claimed to be "missed" in the prophetic movement. And the proof is in the small fortune many of these prophetic ministers are making in tapes, books, schools, and conferences, teaching people "how-to" more "accurately" prophesy, so as not to miss. In fact, a lot of prophecy given that doesn't come to pass isn't blamed on the conditional nature of prophecy. Rather, it is said the prophet is immature in his gifting, and needs to "grow" in it. Thus, one can buy a tape, read a book, attend a school, or go to a weekend conference so as to learn how to improve their own accuracy and sharpen their prophetic gifting.

For, as it is commonly taught in the prophetic movement circles, often a persons accuracy is off because of such things as the flesh getting in the way of their receiving or giving a word. Thus, they don't quite hear God accurately, or are unable to give a word exactly as God gave it to them. Then there are things such as the principalities and powers that act as a sort of interference to keep a person from accurately receiving a word from God, and likewise, speaking it.

But, come to the conference, and you can hear more seasoned prophets tell you how to overcome such things, and be more like them!!!! This is, in fact, the reason so many prophetic words are deemed to be "missed." Not because of conditional words of prophecy. These "prophets" will often describe how they grew in their gifting so as to be more accurate, and how they "practiced" their gift so as to sharpen it and press on to maturity. They will tell stories of how they missed it often because of their immaturity, and, because they are "only human" from time to time, continue to "miss" words even today. But at least they are trying!!!!

And what I say about these things, some of you might be shocked at. But these are far from exaggerations. Sadly, these are how things actually are taught. And sadly, a generation of false prophets is raising up another generation of false prophets. And even more sad than this, is the wide reception such individuals have within the church. The Lord will require much from the church for this sin. Indeed, much has been required already.

Please tell me who has confessed themselves as a prophet? I can't say any of these men (except kim clement) throw the word "prophet" around flippently, unlike many throw "false prophet" around.

This is part of the game those in leadership within the prophetic movement play. In part, it's a false humility. But in greater measure, it's an attempt to be free from accountability should they "miss" a word. "After all, nobody here is claiming to be a prophet..." Yet they never fail to pat each other on the back and say what a great prophet so-and-so is, and they never fail to show up to prophetic conferences to teach on prophetic ministry.

I remember one night when I went to Morning Star's "School of the Spirit" on a Friday night here in Charlotte. After having what was a rather normal church service, the leader called at random a number of students from various tables to come up and share the words they had received from the Lord throughout the service, so as to give them a chance to spread their wings and practice their gifting. But as he called them up, he gave a disclaimer: "Now, nobody here is claiming to be a prophet or anything like that..." But then, when 7 or so students assembled on stage, they proceeded to call out (rather inaccurately at that) folks in the congregation to give them personal prophetic words. And afterwards, anybody that was a first time visitor, for free, could go to the prophecy booths to receive prophetic ministry. But, not from anybody claiming to be a prophet!!!

There is a genuine prophetic move of the Spirit I believe today. However, it is not to be found in the shallow and much celebrated "prophetic movement." That movement is simply a shallow, demonic, counterfeit. There are real displays of power no doubt. But a power that is not of God.

wow buddy sounds like you've been to a conference or two!
I too absolutely hate the marketing of of schools, conferences, etc. it grinds my gears. for sure.

but bro im not gonna go point my finger and call them false prophets. im sure as heck not gonna call them demonic!
I mean if these guys are demonic for their marketing the ministry, then Joel osteen is the devil himself.

did you know that demons wont praise Jesus, and confess is his Lordship and preach the gospel to the lost, now i understand we disagree but c'mon now....demonic?

I mean even Paul said there were people prancing around calling themselves apostles, but they are still preaching the gospel and getting people saved, so let em keep on!

and thankyou Lotis for pointing out the difference between the office of the prophet, and the prophetic gifting, that we all can tap into to discern the heart of the Lord concerning all things and people to share his love.

oh and I just got a phone call from a very close trusted friend who has been serving under Bill Johnson the past year, last night he was ministering at a conference and while he was describing God's heart to heal the sick, a cloud of rain formed over him and it rained for 3 hours in a 6 ft diameter span, many people walked through the rain and many were miraculously healed by Jesus without anyone touching them. sounds kinda like the pillar that formed next to william Branham. Man God is moving today even greater than he did in the old testament, greater than he did in the life of Jesus and the apostles and all this to reveal His son Christ Jesus as the messiah. isnt that exciting?!

Honestly, none of these men that I am aware of have claimed to be in the office of an OLD TESTAMENT prophet. But perhaps they have a prophetic gift. There is a difference between holding the office of prophet and bearing a prophetic gift.

Such, like most of what is taught in the prophetic movement, is a common teaching, but without a shred of Scriptural support. 1 Cor 14 makes it clear, one who prophesies is considered a prophet.

If you're going to say these men are false prophets because perhaps they misused their giftings and made a mistake, then I'm going to have to say any time you're a false-teacher-preacher-giver-encourager-etc all the times you've missused your giftings.

Nowhere in all of Scripture is giving a false prophetic word ever considered a trifle "mistake." There is a phrase to describe those who make statements in the name of God who didn't hear from God to begin. A person who speaks, according to Deuteronomy 18, a word presumptuously is not called mistaken. Instead, they are called a false prophet.

Now, should a person give a false word, there is room for correction and repentance. For example, when Nathan originally counseled David that it was ok for David to build the temple, Nathan went later and told David what the correct word was (that he could not build the temple, but Solomon would). And indeed, Lord knows I have made such errors in my life time. But the Lord has shown me they were far from little trifle mistakes, but that such was sin for which I needed to repent of, and to speak only when I was commanded to speak.

but bro im not gonna go point my finger and call them false prophets.

I believe they are false prophets, not simply because they have missed a word here or there. Such no doubt, is enough to warrant the Scriptural condemnation and use of the term. But I believe they are false prophets because they chronically and habitually speak things in the name of the Lord that in no way have their origin in God. It's their disposition. This is far from a freak thing.

Oh sure, they say some great things from time to time. But, the disposition of their ministry, I believe, is false. Such is why they continue to miss time and time again. They never really repented of the last false word they gave, instead, they just sought to "grow" in their gifting and "learn" to become more "accurate."

If they had given a false word, and "missed it," then they need to come back into right relationship with God and repent of their "missed" word. And when the time comes again for them to prophesy, they need to say whatever the Lord gives them in that moment to say. Yet, so far as I have seen, this mindset is not to be found in the prophetic movement. Instead, they keep missing words and attempting to grow more accurate for next time. Such a teaching though, is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

And such is why I label stuff like this demonic. That's not to say, these guys are demon possessed. But the origin of a lot of what is said, doesn't issue from the word of God. Instead, it is what James says, "This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic." (James 3:15) Believe me, I don't use this word lightly. But when such a thing characterizes an entire "movement" on an international scale, I have no doubt as to the source of its origins, and that is, from below.

Like Jonah when he was sent by God to prophecy Nineveh right?

Please read the thread more, I comment on Jonah a bit.

ok still wont change the truth of my point though, you cannot change the word of God dear sir.

I quoted Jonah (and others) to show there is a conditional nature to prophecy. However, this conditional nature to prophecy gives very little explanation to understanding the current so-called prophetic movement.

Indeed, the conditional nature of prophecy is seldom ever invoked to explain why a word was missed. Most choose to explain a missed word on the basis of being an immature prophet. And for good reason. You can't invoke the "conditional prophecy" explanation too often, otherwise, people will begin to really wonder about you. Thus, they much prefer to say they are simply growing in their gift.

I used to go to a church,
and the pastor would say if anybody has a word for someone and its negative, pray about it, if its still negative pray some more, and still negative then dont give it, because it's not God. because God doesnt give negative words to people.
Im sorry, the whole bible is full of warnings to Gods people who need a stiff kick in the pants to get right with him.
That is the kind of junk these prophets are dishing out today.
Read Ezekiel 14:4-11
Therefore speak to them and tell them, thus says the Lord God, any man of the house of Israel who sets up his idols in his heart puts right before his face the stumbling block of his iniquity then comes to the prophet, I the Lord will be brought to give him an answer in the matter in veiw of the multitude of his idols. 5 in order to lay hold of the hearts of the house of Israel who are estranged from me through all their idols, therefore say to the house of Israel thus says the Lord God repent and turn away from your idols and turn your faces away from all your abominations for anyone of the house of Israel or the immigrants who stay in Israel who seperates himself from me sets up his idols in his heart puts right before his face the stumbling block of his iniquity and then comes to the prophet to inquire of me for himself I the Lord will be brought to answer him in my own person I will set my face against that man and make him a sign and a proverb and I will cut him off from among my people so you will know that I am the Lord but if the prophet is prevailed upon to speak a word it is I the Lord who prevailed upon that prophet and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel they will bear the punishment of their iniquity as the the iniquity of the inquirer is so the iniquity of the prophet will be in order that the house of Israel may no longer stray from me and no longer defile themselves with all their transgressions thus they will be my people and I shall be their God, declares the Lord God.

Let me say something here at this point, I see and have seen people in church who had sin in their lives and would seek out these prophets, I call them "word addicts" and these so called prophets or whatever always have a great word for them, and never addressing the sin in their lives.. try reading ezekiel chapter 3 conscerning that.
anyway, I went to a church who was advertising REVIVAL!!! so i took my family, and I saw something that blew me and my family away, the evangelist talked about Joseph, and His anointing. And said God was going to give out a Joseph anointing, who wants to come up and get a Joseph anointing, the church flocked up to the alter, people pressing in to get this impartation.
Lets not worry about your charecter right?!
everyone is falling on the ground, some got pushed but whatever, There was no way he was going to lay hands on me or my family, we left.
Revival, is getting right with God, repentance, holiness, purity, a changed life, a crucified life, CRUCIFIED LIFE.
these so called prophets talk about power, a new thing, prosperity, but oh never a crucified life.
When these people think that God is going to do a new thing through them, they will have Apostolic authority, when they say the FRUIT of an Apostle is numbers. look 80,000 came to our meeting.
If that is the litmus test then I guess the muslim religion has apostolic sucession.

A church in our town thought that it was having revival around 9 years ago, and weird stuff started happening, and one morning the pastor stood at the pulpit and said to the congregation, look people do you want the word of God, or do you want a move of God. then he said, just leave your bibles at home and just trust me.
would you believe the leadership of that church swallowed the hook and the church almost fell into judgment, the pastor fell, lost the church 300,000 dollars and many left and had to leave.
its starting to recover now but it took a long time.
These new prophets are gonna start preaching new revelation, new understanding of scripture.
RUN for your life's, trust me, and when someone who is deceived even leadership, they dont know it, they will genuinely go to the gates of heaven thinking they will be able to enter, but not be able to, many will strive to enter will not be able to.

I agree with Jimmy... I dislike the modern prophetic movement and its "prophets", not solely for their inaccurate prophecies, but for how they view the prophetic ministry itself. I do, however, understand why people find much interest in them and what they teach.

Great if you've been blessed by Rick Joyner, Roy Engle, or Bob Jones, etc., but I haven't. As I can only speak for myself. I've found some (I can't speak for most of them) to represent something very peculiar, a sort of pseudo-spirituality.. "having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power." (2 Tim 3:5)

Truth be told, I have limited knowledge of the movement and haven't read any of their (i.e. Joyner, Jones') books nor listened much to their sermons, etc., and have honestly little interest to, so I could likely be wrong in my thoughts upon them. They seem to be a rather passionate bunch, with seemingly good intentions and a desire for God. Again, if you are blessed by them, that is fine and I don't discount that, but be extremely cautious concerning all proclaimed prophets (or someone who prophesies), for they can easily deceive you. I'd emphasize Deut 18:20-22:

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. (ESV)

God holds to high esteem the prophetic word, it should not be taken lightly. The Bible, especially in the major prophets, condemns false prophets very severely, and is very harsh with them. I am not going to say that people apart of the prophetic movement today are false, but the ones that have predicted such wild things that have not come to pass, and the ones that openly contradict their supposed prophetic ministry, I would consider false.

There are many admonitions though in the New Testament in particular given concerning False Prophets, all verses from the ESV:

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. (Matt. 24:24)

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. (2 Peter 2:1-3)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)

To clarify, I am not going to join Jimmy in his severity of condemnation to many of the people apart of the "prophetic movement", as I do not know all of them well enough nor have heard of them much at all to know if they've prophesied falsely or if their lives are in contradiction to their supposed prophetic ministry, etc. I am basically ill-informed concerning them as I am not well read in their writings, and until I get to reading many of them I cannot speak in any authoritative manner. I can only say to be cautious concerning them all, as they could be "ravenous wolves in sheep clothing," even "deceiving the elect."

Jordan

Unless you really know what these men's ministries are about, I would be careful about the words used about them.

By the way, Lou Engle, Mike Bickle, and Bill Johnson do not call themselves prophets. Lou Engle is an intercessor that trains up this generation in fasting, intercession and repentance. Young adults from all over this nation are being raised up under this man of God. I was at thecall nashville where we fasted, prayed and repented for the church in this nation. It was a 16 hour day in the hot sun on a water fast. This is the man you are calling a false prophet. Be very careful of what you say.

I could say the same of Mike Bickle. He calls himself an intercessor, not a prophet. He has started 24/7, night and day prayer/worship that has been going for 7 years now! This is for the purpose of revival. He does not claim to be in revival, but preparing for it. People from all over the world are returning to a fasted, wasted life of prayer and worship of Jesus because of this is man. Be very careful of what you say.

Unless you really know what you're talking about, I wouldn't even say it.

To discuss doctrine is one thing, but to slander a brother in Christ is another.

I was referring to the 3 men I mentioned (Engle, Bickle, Johnson), not everyone that was lumped together, as "false prophets", which seems to happen alot on this site. And yes, have seen all 3 of them many times. Their ministries are solid in the Word. Mike Bickle's ministry prays the BIBLE 24 hours a day.

Also, Dutch Sheets is an excellent teacher on prayer and intercession and has a burden for this nation and much of what is promoted on this website. have read his books, and seen him.

As far as the others mentioned, I have no comment.

But, Scripture says, "Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses" (I Tim. 5:19). It's just good to bring up issues in a Christlike way.

These arguments are always so pointless. No one ever changes their minds...your opinion doesn't effect mine nor does mine yours. Just like someone said recently in another thread about Abe Lincoln, some say he was great, others say he was a tyrant. Complete opposite opinions, both seemingly well backed by facts and experiences, both meaning little to the opposing sides.
Sorry you don't like these people krispy, I often like to read your posts, your opinion (while I don't always agree with it) is always an interesting one.
All I can say is that I am a child of God and I like these guys and I like what they stand for. And no they are not perfect, but neither are we. They have changed my life and countless others for the better, that is fruit enough for me. They are changing the world, you can't deny that. Whats important is that they are changing it for Christ, not for Satan. These men lead people to Jesus, not to devils. You can disagree, oh well. I guess this is my last post in this thread. Much Love

Amen Lotis!

No offense Krispy, but while I find your opinions interesting, they don't effect me at all. And once again no offense, but if I cared much that you think I'm deceived I'd get angry and offended with you. I almost did in fact, but then I thought, who really cares what you think in the long run? (That is, in regards to this immediate matter) You think I'm deceived, oh well, welcome to the club. You're a smart man, but I'd venture to say your discernment is off. But, what does my opinion matter in the long run? I respect you as a great man of God, whom I could learn a lot from. But sometimes I see why my generation is so quick to rebel against the older generation.
This is not directed towards Krispy:
I'm 20, and my generation is going down to hell in a hand-basket, as I am sure you all are aware. We come with a festival and you call for a fast, we come fasting and you call it a festival. Someone stands up and speaks the word of the Lord and you call him false, a man sits down and stays quiet and you call him apathetic. Get a clue, your pet ideals mean nothing in the Kingdom, quit boxing God in. You can point and cry wolf all you want at who ever you want, but the fact remains, they are changing my generation and most of us here are turning them away.

Lotis, while there is an understanding to what you have stated about your generation there is the counter that many of us have been down this path and even both Krispy and myself were once fairly well enamored with one Benny Hinn if it needs an example.

Believe me these are they which watch out for your soul more than you know. Be on your guard against pride brother.

Pray all would really begin to mine the resources that are available here on so many a topic, even such as this, there is a great deal of that which has been spoken to it and an even greater amount yet to be explored of so many rich and challenging matters.

If false teachers werent effective in bringing about positive change, no one would follow them.

Good point. I don't think many people realize this.

I am not being prideful in the least. Did you ever think that perhaps Hitler and all that was the perversion of what God truly wanted to do? So only if someone brings about negative change they are true? You'd be right not to compare these men to Hitler, because thats completely illogical. The ones I like are doing nothing to gain anything for themselves. If you are aware and have specific examples of them doing it for money or power or fame, let me know. Perhaps what you say is the reason for my Generations rejection of the wisdom of the older one, where sin abounds grace much more abounds however. I am going to have to go ahead and reject what you said, not all of it but some, I never claimed to have all the answers nor do I believe I have them. I serve under Godly men, I am very teachable actually, but I spit out garbage. When I am on the backside of 30 the world will be a much different place, and yes, I will have contributed to the changing of everything. Honestly, I'd rather speak to you about this in person, because I think emotions appear online that aren't actually there. I doubt that will ever happen however.

The fact that you think Mike Bickle teaches false doctrine is old news, (relating to the 'sons of God'). This has been refuted, over and done with a long time ago. IHOP addresses this on their actual website. Go straight to the source itself, not some second-hand view criticizing them. The article isn't even current anymore. They are not Metro Vineyard. That was a long time ago, as well as other info. about them.

His ministry has been built by prophets who at the time, were serving God uprightly, but have since fallen-i.e-Jones, Cain. That does not discredit Mike Bickle's ministry now, or how it all came together. I've listened to the entire 12 CD account of the years it has taken for prayer to take root, and establish IHOP, from the mouth of Bickle himself.

Jesus is the center of EVERYTHING done and taught at IHOP. It's who they worship, teach, and pray to 24 hours a day. And by the way, they pray the prayers of the Apostle Paul, night and day. To compare IHOP's teaching to Catholicism just shows how little you know about him or what his ministry is all about. Personally, I've been there many times for conferences and been in the prayer room. I've seen for myself the fruit of his ministry as thousands of young adults are turning away from the world and setting their gaze on Jesus, their bridegroom, and becoming totally on fire for God!

Until anyone here has results even 1/2 of that, there's nothing more to be said.

It amazes me that someone who is actually practicing what this webisite preaches: Repentance, the centrality of Christ, the Word of God, holiness........is called a false prophet. wow.

This is a very interesting link. There is a whole section in there about Rick Joyner's book "the Final Quest." It uses scripture to expose error in his writings.

http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/

Krispy said,
"I just know when you're 20 you think you have all the answers and you're gonna change everything."

I'm about three years past that and I've already lost a third of my previous insight and have changed one tenth of what I expected. What seems to change most are my opinions.

We come with a festival and you call for a fast, we come fasting and you call it a festival. Someone stands up and speaks the word of the Lord and you call him false, a man sits down and stays quiet and you call him apathetic...but the fact remains, they are changing my generation and most of us here are turning them away.

I couldn't help but notice the exasperation in this statement. I'm hearing similar sentiments expressed in younger believers today. I recently handed out a Paul Washer sermon to a dear brother, and he rightfully sighed..."why does his message sound so different then this other preacher over here?"

Seriously tho, the reason your generation rejects the wisdom that can found in older generations...

This is generally true, but we might want to clarify which older generations we are talking about.

The determination to steam ahead I've heard in some spirited 20somethings in the Church today is not always rooted in arrogance, but is an adversion, a critique directed at the older generations living today who exhibit no consensus or leadership to their generation anymore. They do not want to become part of the gumbo stew. They see that the baby boomers, and my generation (X?) have become so contradictory... I think we can sum the church of this age as the 'Divergent Church.'

Let's consider the current "older generation's" collective wisdom to the younger ones. Rick Joyner is claiming to have supernatural visions as original as that of Paul himself. NT Wright is masterfully articulating a "new perpectivism" of the very gospel message itself. Brian McClaren is supplanting Christianity with ...well I don't know what in the word he even believes--- he's "post-modern". Paula White is partnering with strip club owners for social and political objectives. Many older Christian leaders embrace a radically diverse array of secular political leaders...even inviting them into their pulpits! Speaking of political leaders, President Bush, President Clinton, and Senator Obama also claim to be Christians...a riddle that is not lost on sincere young Christians.

Actually I could go on for the next 2 days typing a list of contradictory movements and themes in the 'church today."

Now, as a 41 year old, my own navigation through the spiritual and moral chaos the older generation has left the Church in has not been a steady gnostic climb up the mountain of wisdom. Instead it has been a meandering under the pursuasion of self-appointed men, along the way experiencing several allergic reactions to false doctrine swallowed wholeheartedly, a few crisis' of faith doubting my salvation, and the pressure of "making it all work" according to the whim of whatever Judiaizer I happen to be under the influence of.

My point here is to accept that the confusion of the younger generation is greatly due in part to the confusion in the older generations. Therefore it is meaningless to simply instruct the younger to learn from the older without at least some more information...indeed such advice may only increase the chaos in their hearts.

My own advice is to always consider and measure everything you hear by the old paths...circa 1900AD and before. Are there modern teachers and preachers that are trustworthy? Most certainly but only because they follow the old paths! (Many are archived here on this site!)

Rick Joyner, Brian McClaren, and NT Wright have one thing in common...they are inventors. The leaders we do well to imitate and follow are those who are mere discoverers of a well walked path already cut and made straight for them by the faithful who have come before them.

The faithful never invented a new gospel for their generation or their culture. They did not major on supernaturalism, or social/political issues, or religous archeology. They were only concerned about seeing sinful men dying to their old state, being ressurrected in Christ, living lives unto God. They preached Christ and him alone...everything else was counted as dung to these men.

But you say, "my favorite prophet does preach Christ!" That is wonderful! Does he also preach that you must attain secret elite spiritual powers to have victory over demons and to recieve God's blessing? If so then he has wandered from the old paths. Does he also preach that the sound doctrine of the Gospel, yea even the spirit of Truth, is not knowable and therefore not as important as social justice? Does he preach that the New Covenant is really just the Old Covenant opened up to gentiles? Then rest assured, sincere and pursuasive as he may be, he has wandered from the path...

I have heard it well said that heresy is formulated as "Jesus plus (fill in the blank.)".

A few years ago my son, who was about 5 at the time, wandered into the big woods behind our old house with a friend of his. For about 45 minutes we worried and called as we searched through the woods. Thank God, eventually we did find them...not so far from home as they thought, sitting still on a rock sniffling in fear. My son told me in so many words, "as soon as I knew we were lost, I told my friend that we needed to sit on this rock, pray, and wait to be found."

I tell this little story not to imply that younger Christians are lost in the dire enternal sense at all. I mean to say that the older generation has left, in effect, the younger ones in a forest of conflicting and branching ideas to find their way out. This can cause people to become anxious and busy...when what is really lacking (in my opinion) is simply waiting on God. My unsoliticed advice is to not become strong headed and charge through the forest with youthful zeal and misplaced loyalties...instead wait upon the Lord in all you do, and you will find that he will come, and guide your heart and feet precisely to that old path well trodden by faithful, albiet perhaps less famous, pilgrims hidden in every generation.

Blessings,

MC

Very well said MC. Hope the articles Greg posted might be taken into the grid work as well. To the younger brothers here ... I do hope that there is an understanding and appreciation to just look to the issues of authenticity and truth in the most distilled form and to realize that is what the slightly older as hopefully yourselves are constantly at here.

I think it would be fair to state that even those of us in the older capacity fled much of the confusion that MC touched on still find it difficult to articulate and make sense of with where we are presently. Personally, I do find most of what constitutes prophecy in our day to be questionable at best and hardly prophetic at worst. Even the definition of the term itself has been so contorted out of it's structure that the many attempts here have brought us often no closer to what it might have been in the original, speaking in New Testament terms.

The hold that I do have is that it is much more associated with teaching or revealing that which has always and already been stated and is explanatory in nature, far more than the business of prediction or forth telling. But I am still pressing into the matter even to this very moment.

Brothers I repeat it again, those of us that have been in and out of these things speak from a heart of concern for you.

Compton, I totally see what you're saying, and I appreciate your post. Thank you for at least being kind and explaining what you said. I truly appreciate it. Truth be told I was thinking about just deleting my account here after this thread. I honestly have been met with little exhortation or encouragement here on these forums, even in a corrective manner. I am usually just flat out picked apart sentence by sentence and either told I am deceived or someone like that haha. It's quite troubling actually. I am young and I have a lot to learn, but I truly hope I don't turn out to be as a lot of people SEEM to be here. Maybe its just my skewed vision via the internet's ability to mask true emotion and feeling behind typed words, but probably not. To Krispy: I truly do look for your opinion on many subjects, often scrolling past a few posts to read what you have to say. Your negative words would hurt my feelings, if I didn't know thats just how you post, bluntly declaring what you believe to be the truth. So thanks, and keep it up, though I don't agree with you :)

So I leave this thread on the stand I started. I am fruit of this movement, I see fruit in this movement. I am after Jesus, not men, nor mens opinions of me. Thanks for listening to my two cents.

The thing that most disturbs me about the prophetic movement is the lack of reality and desire for the truth manifest in this movement. And such is why prophets can continually "miss it" and not be personally disturbed in the depth of their own soul that they dare prophesied something falsely, and such is also why people flock to them in droves. In general, they want to play the game too.

For if truth and reality were the burning hunger of many people involved in this movement, they would not allow "missed words" to so simply swept under the carpet as if they never even were given to begin with. So to me, I care not how many people they've reportedly brought to Christ, or how many people they've led in fasting and prayer. Such are great things. But, Jimmy Swaggart was having such an amazing blessing in his ministry even though he was whoring around town. Bad behavior is still bad behavior, and it does not justify the good behavior. But, because many are simply playing games within the prophetic movement, such bad behavior is simply overlooked.

And such is exactly what happened with Jimmy Swaggart. As you know, many people continued to support Swaggart even after his fall. Shoot, even after his own fall Swaggart kept acting like nothing ever happened. He was full of pride even after all his public exposure, and is still full of pride even today. Oh, sure, he still continues to see a blessing. But so what? The issues of truth and reality have long departed from Swaggart.

I'm continue to be saddened at those of you who continue to support many of these men. I don't know all the names of all the people, as I've not actively followed, studied and participated in the prophetic movement for a while. So, I cannot offer a blanket condemnation of everyone of them. However, as the old saying goes, birds of the same feather flock together. Therefore, when I see men whom I don't know, associating with some of these better known men whom I have known of... then I'm worried that they participate in the same thing. Of course, we can't automatically ascribe guilt simply for being associated with them. Each individual must be judged on a case by case basis. But without a doubt, I automatically am concerned with such associations.

All I can say in my own personal testimony is that there was time in my life where I was following this movement, and attempting to flow in the prophetic in ways which were taught. But the Lord quickly showed me if I continued to follow such ministers, I would be false just like them. Indeed, the Lord has done such a work in me to show me that many of these men simply had no clue whatsoever about true prophetic ministry, as most of what they said simply was not based on the Scriptures. Indeed, a true depth of understanding from the Scriptures is almost entirely lacking in the prophetic movement today.

Compton wrote:

I tell this little story not to imply that younger Christians are lost in the dire enternal sense at all. I mean to say that the older generation has left, in effect, the younger ones in a forest of conflicting and branching ideas to find their way out. This can cause people to become anxious and busy...when what is really lacking (in my opinion) is simply waiting on God. My unsoliticed advice is to not become strong headed and charge through the forest with youthful zeal and misplaced loyalties...instead wait upon the Lord in all you do, and you will find that he will come, and guide your heart and feet precisely to that old path well trodden by faithful, albiet perhaps less famous, pilgrims hidden in every generation.

Blessings,

MC

MC, I couldn't have said it any better!

KingJimmy wrote:
[b]The thing that most disturbs me about the prophetic movement is the lack of reality and desire for the truth manifest in this movement. And such is why prophets can continually "miss it" and not be personally disturbed in the depth of their own soul that they dare prophesied something falsely, and such is also why people flock to them in droves. In general, they want to play the game too.[/b]

[b]For if truth and reality were the burning hunger of many people involved in this movement, they would not allow "missed words" to so simply swept under the carpet as if they never even were given to begin with. So to me, I care not how many people they've reportedly brought to Christ, or how many people they've led in fasting and prayer.[/b] Such are great things. But, Jimmy Swaggart was having such an amazing blessing in his ministry even though he was whoring around town. Bad behavior is still bad behavior, and it does not justify the good behavior. [b] But, because many are simply playing games within the prophetic movement, such bad behavior is simply overlooked. [/b]

And such is exactly what happened with Jimmy Swaggart. As you know, many people continued to support Swaggart even after his fall. Shoot, even after his own fall Swaggart kept acting like nothing ever happened. He was full of pride even after all his public exposure, and is still full of pride even today. Oh, sure, he still continues to see a blessing. But so what? The issues of truth and reality have long departed from Swaggart.

I'm continue to be saddened at those of you who continue to support many of these men. I don't know all the names of all the people, as I've not actively followed, studied and participated in the prophetic movement for a while. So, I cannot offer a blanket condemnation of everyone of them. However, as the old saying goes, birds of the same feather flock together. Therefore, when I see men whom I don't know, associating with some of these better known men whom I have known of... then I'm worried that they participate in the same thing. Of course, we can't automatically ascribe guilt simply for being associated with them. [b] Each individual must be judged on a case by case basis. But without a doubt, I automatically am concerned with such associations.[/b]

Excellent points, brother. I tend to agree.

My own advice is to always consider and measure everything you hear by the old paths...circa 1900AD and before.

I second this. A solid guideline that immediately comes to mind is the ministry of [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=106]John Charles Ryle[/url] who actually died in 1900. In particular, his exhortations for young men. They are superb, sober, wise and soul-healthy. I would direct every youthful zealot in these forums, and especially those flirting on the fringe of these current "prophetic" movements, to read Ryle. My prayer is that his teachings would be to them a kind of "smelling salt" to alert a sobriety to holiness, self-denial and constant vigilance in their walks.

But you say, "my favorite prophet does preach Christ!" That is wonderful! Does he also preach that you must attain secret elite spiritual powers to have victory over demons and to recieve God's blessing? If so then he has wandered from the old paths. Does he also preach that the sound doctrine of the Gospel, yea even the spirit of Truth, is not knowable and therefore not as important as social justice? Does he preach that the New Covenant is really just the Old Covenant opened up to gentiles? Then rest assured, sincere and pursuasive as he may be, he has wandered from the path...

Well done, brother. Amen! A fake $100 bill looks just as real as genuine one does...unless your eye is trained to identify the inscrutibilities. Learn to acquaint your spirit eye with God's impeccable whiteness, and you'll then be able to discern Satan's off-white shade.

Brother Paul

When someone prophesies and it is wrong, there not immature, there wrong.
they didnt hear from God wrongly, they heard not God, either a wrong prophecy was from their own imaginations, or well from the bad guy.
Scripture says,
Titus 3:9-11 but keep back from foolish questionings and geneologies and arguements and quarrels of law for they are unprofitable and vain. after the first and second warning, avoid a man of heresy. knowing that such a one has been perverted and sins, being self-condemned.

I use this scripture to point out that this movement does teach heresy.

I too once followed a pastor who was so sincere but the more I prayed and studied my bible and Matthew Henry, and my other pulpit commentaries, I discovered his fruit, and well, I discovered it was fruit that was stuck to thorns, not fruit from a vine.
It took me two years after that to finally get the nerve to move on and resolve myself to the fact that not every pastor or teacher is from God, I wrote him a letter explaining my position and admonished him to his behavior, he wrote me back and was in total denial.
He was deceived, I had to reject him, but God reminded me I'm not to be angry with him but to pray for him, and I'm to forgive him and let God deal with him.
This is a generation like the one during the time of Jesus, we're a wicked and perverce generation who looks for signs and wonders, we are so ripe for deception in the church today, and there are so many people out there who barely know the word of God that they will swallow any wind of doctrin floating their way, no matter how unscriptural it may be. and if we judge what they teach we are told by them "dont judge" or "lay not a hand on the Lord's annointed" both scriptures which are used out of context, but most christians today dont know it or care to study it because there too busy, busy buying new car's or keeping up with who is hitting the most home-runs now, or something like that.
I like the advice of krispy kritter who said, to just read the word and get into Matthew Henry commentary.
It is truly sound advice, And believe me my problem started with my church when I started studying my bible and Took Berean classes, and reading A.W. Tozer and Ravenhill, and other commentaries.
I had conflict with teachings, one who had the pulpit I sat under, and all the others I was reading, all that I read agreed with each other and disagreed with the pastor, when I tried to discuss a topic, he said I was comming against him.
The good old you must submit to authority trump card to shut you up. The devil will try anything to keep Bereans quiet. God save him, and God please spare this generation from a multitude of false or ignorant teachers who are trying to make a buck. If they dont have something new to teach they have nothing at all to say.
What happened to just preaching the word anymore, they have new concepts, new things, God is doing something new.

Here is a link http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/simpson.html

its all about the prophetic movement, lots of articles and quotes from these leaders from the movements, and discern for yourself from their quotes, weather the fruit is from God or not.

If what I have to say makes you angry, then I say Good, do you know why I say Good?
Because when I got angry with my pastors teachings, or what someone said about doctrine, It drove me to my knees and I would study it for myself and not rely on someone elses words.
This is a fight for not only your life but a fight for your soul. Get mad and study for yourself.
Matthew 11:12 the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, but the violent take it by force.
Remember someone is trying to deceive you.
The devil has already deceived alot of people, he just wants to get you to join them.
Have a great Day. :-)

I honestly have been met with little exhortation or encouragement here on these forums, even in a corrective manner. I am usually just flat out picked apart sentence by sentence and either told I am deceived or someone like that haha. It's quite troubling actually. I am young and I have a lot to learn, but I truly hope I don't turn out to be as a lot of people SEEM to be here. Maybe its just my skewed vision via the internet's ability to mask true emotion and feeling behind typed words, but probably not.

My, Krispy gladly stole my thunder here and said as much as I would have with certainty. Thanks brother.

lotis, I did leave here with your words above giving place for contemplation. If I might take those last words first ... "[i]but probably not[/i]" up to that point you were dead on. This form of communication is and has been one that often needs more clarification along those lines as almost a constant; It is why the admonishen is to truly attempt to stick to that which is being stated and not draw in assumptions or prior presumptions, it is redundantly [i]"play the ball, not the man"[/i]. That goes for those in question as 'prophets' as to each and everyone of us. Dear brother I praise God in all sincerity for you and others half my age that are even traversing this tremendous site. It is [i]rich[/i] in thought and contemplation, the changes in thinking and discarded notions by way of challenge of these older, often departed (dead) saints that have traveled these paths before us ... It is MC's point and KingJimmy's as well as others. What I might say to it in specific as it relates to those under question 'prophetically' is ... to question is not to 'wholesale', often the great problem here, that we take or make the whole man based upon the challenge or the question or even the falsity of what they might profess. Krispy touched on this rightly, to begin judging hearts and the spirit of the man is the height of audacity in most circumstances. In a sense it might be said that many of these are [i]falsely prophet-ing[/i] to coin a phrase, but does it spell the whole man and his love for the Lord?

What KingJimmy stated earlier I would add my own chagrin to and that there is so little reconsideration and such a rarity of confession when the things prophesied prove false, prove they were not in fact "from the Lord" and yet the continuance goes on with defending and excuse and even more of the same ... What I appreciated about and have come to value even more is someone like Andrew Strom who had the temerity to rethink and challenge his own considerations and the associations with this 'movement' and walk away from it. Would to God we had just more sheer honesty in the Body of this nature.

But brother, I do pray you are more encouraged by these challenges and recognize that a lot of what is available here takes time to assimilate and ponder, consider, pray about. I can tell you my past notions and understandings have been turned inside out and upside down and frankly do not know if a day goes by I don't have something to think on coming away from all this. It is a vast, incredible resource of thought, in articles and sermons, in experience and challenge.

Sorry Greg, your article written by Andrew Strom is old news as well. He came and went in a whirlwind. He came out "publicly" and it caused a small uproar of response at the time because he said he was against the "prophetic movement".

I went to see him in person as a result of his article. Went to one of his meetings-I was grieved. All he did was condemn people he disagreed with to hell, yes, to hell. I cried and prayed for the man. He had some valid points, but they were greatly overshadowed by the spirit in which he came. He has since renounced his former stance on many issues, and is trying to run a street outreach in Wisconsin. Talk about someone bringing confusion to the body of Christ. He would be it.

I am not speaking of this issue from a second hand view. I am an eyewitness, and the Lord definitely led me away from his ministry.

God Bless

Luke 6:43 says, "A good tree can't produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can't produce good fruit. A tree is identified by its fruit".

The fruit of IHOP is verrry good. Thousands of young adults are living nazarite lifestyles because of Mike Bickle, giving themselves to God's Word, fasting and praying, very likely-for you!

Here is just one example of the fruit of his minisry from a twenty-something year old worship leader at IHOP: (Her name is Misty Edwards)-

This is entitled "As In The Days of Noah" written by her, and a song called "Baptize My Heart":

"Peter said for us to remember first that many scoffers would come in that Day saying, "Where is the promise of of His appearing? There will be false prophets saying, 'Peace and Safety'! when there is no peace as Jesus begins to shake everything that can be shaken. He said, "Blessed are those who are found watching and waiting." I believe that this is a generation like Noah who have heard of the coming storm and we are preparing a generation for the wave of delusion that is about to crash over the planet. O! That we would not be caught off guard! We must be preachers of righteousness who understand the times and the seasons and who do not get weary in the waiting for the return of Jesus. We must prepare the way!

"Baptize My Heart"-words and music by Misty Edwards:

"I can hear the song of the Creator as He sings over his creation-'I played the flute for you...Did you dance? I sang the wedding song over you...were you romanced? I played the funeral song and told you my judgments were coming...did you lament?

For even children know when to dance! Even children know the sound of the wedding-even children know when to repent-at the sound of the funeral, they lament!

Baptize my heart with your fire, Your desire

I don't want to be offended when it's all coming down

I pledge my allegiance to Jesus! (end)

Bickle's fruit speaks for itself. Examine it for yourself-its good.

(There's thousands more like her)

You can go on thinking they're deceived, and they will go on, (and me too, as well as many others) crying out to God, and worshiping Jesus!

(They're praying for you brothers, I wouldn't despise it)

i think one thing to remember is that fruit does not mean how many souls "accept Christ" or "come up for salvation". for even the pharisees "traveled land and see to make a convert (to judaism) and when they did, they made them twice the son of hell as they were". so "decisions" for Christ is not the ultimate criteria for judging fruit. from what i see in the word, our criteria is..
* does it magnify Christ as our all in all? or is there still added on (you need Jesus and..)?
* does it agree in all ways with the word? is it Truth? God's Truth and not man's truth??
some of the prophets in the old testament did not have many converts (jeremiah, ezekiel), but that did not mean they weren't true prophets. even Jesus was left with just a few disciples when push came to shove. does that disqualify Him?? God forbid. all i am trying to show is that "decisions" are not a good criteria of fruit, but judge it all by the word.

this is an exhortation to us all, but especially us younger guys (i am 26) who think that we have it all figured out. the older gentlemen on here have been through a lot of stuff that we haven't even thought of yet. it would be wise for us all to listen and really heed godly instruction and wisdom.. even if you disagree with it, please keep it before God in prayer.. just some thoughts.

Ummmmm...Mormons are not born again by the Holy Spirit, and believe Jesus is Satan's brother (in their own doctrine). They also believe Jesus has already come back in spirit form back in the 1940's. I have yet to hear one example of false teaching coming from IHOP. Please discuss specific doctrines-not people.

Krispy-

with all due respect brother-you're wrong. :-)
To find out exactly what IHOP believes, go to their website,its all there.

http://www.ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?id=14025

Sorry Krispy-

As far as your links and articles go-I have already responded to them. They are not current, and the information is incorrect now. But why would you believe me?

Again, (sigh) IHOP themselves have already responded to accusations about them on their own website-and their doctrinal beliefs are listed there as well. Go to the source-not a second hand criticism. Their doctrine is solid. And IN NO WAY do Mormons practice what IHOP does.

On a personal note, I can see how you would have such strong feeling about so many current movements, seeing what you've come through. Just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Honestly, I can relate with that.

I actually agree with some here that there is alot of false teaching out there. I've come through it myself. The WOF, prosperity, and some of the 'prophetic' stuff..But honestly, IHOP is not one of them.

ok-God Bless you

I was reading this out of S.P. Tregelles book, "The Hope of Christ's Coming" yesterday and thought this would be a good quote to post on this thread for thought:

[i]"But it must never be forgotten that holiness is not the only thing taught us respecting the Holy Ghost: He is the Spirit of Truth as well as the Holy Spirit of God; and the two things should be combined, and not set in contrast. We are not to accredit any supposed holiness irrespective of truth; we are not to regard truth as rightly held unless it be connected with holiness: and as truth is found in the revelation given in Holy Scripture, this must be our standard by which we must judge whatever professes to be either holiness, such as God would approve, or truth, that His people should accept."[/i] - Samuel Tregelles, 1864

Check out the recent post from our Sermon
Index moderator "Why I Left the Prophetic
Movement" by Andrew Strom. Explains all!!

Check out the recent post from our SermonIndex moderator "Why I left the Prophetic Movement"

Here's a link to it [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18886&forum=34&0]Why I Left the Prophetic Movement[/url]

This is probably my last post about all this.

Just for the record-Bob Jones is NOT currently publicly endorsed by IHOP. He is not mentioned on their site, and neither IHOP, nor Mike Bickle has a link on Bob Jones' website.

Why do I continue to defend this? Because half truths about a brother in Christ matters to me. Also, it is NOT ok to call someone a false prophet or teacher, when it's not true. It's one thing to come against doctrine, but another thing to publicly speak against a brother in Christ.

I will continue to defend "the faith" of IHOP and the integrity of Mike Bickle. They're both solid Biblically. (Not that they even need my defense, but I'll do it anyway).

I guess that's about all I have to say about all this. Obviously I disagree with most of what's been said for allllll the previous things I've already written.

Here is IHOP's refutation of their "false teachings".

http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?id=1000010561

I'm done.

ce4

I agree with you. Honestly, I have never seen so much slander on a "Christian discussion forum".

I agree with much of what wallbuilder has said. I also believe that many throw the baby out with the bathwater. I believe people can have the problem and inclination to too soonly throw a ministry out for some problems. The Church can be sick and growing there is room for that. There are also people who are just intellectuals as I once was and do not have a prayer life and so are bent in their carnality and then cant make good decisions.

However I would also like to say that I do not know how far to go with what and so many ministries are questionable. It does take a lot looking into to be in the right place.

Glitter, oil from hands, and all that other stuff I deem to be false. Barking and making animals noises and being drunk in the Spirit I also will say is false. I will emphatically say the Holy Spirit of God produces cross loving, self dying people and not hyped up glory chasers. And, I am not saying dont seek the glory of God, but in their way of manifestations, clouds, and angels just for fun is no good. And, I would go as far as to say feeling the weight of it for it is heavy that it is deception spiritually though much of it may just be somewhat and sometimes emotionalism with good motives.

God help this generation it is going down the tubes. No one wants to follow sound doctrine and the multitudes will follow anyone with confidence and charisma. I thank God that He is in control and sovereign and in the midst ready to bring justice. I pray that false teeachers be judged and that the immature Church be refined in Jesus name.

Lastly, I would like to say that I read a good book. It is a book that is well fitting for this situation. It is called Revival God's Way by Leonard Ravenhill. He says in a day when we have tried every other way let us now do it Gods way. He speaks of the serious times we are in and the drastic measures that need to imperatively be taken for a poweful revival. Also, prayer that need to be interceding like Gethsemane and cross nailing and so on. And, what I found to be the most hard hitting thing: "you can give me a preacher who can give me all the statistics of abortions and the secret weapons of communism and so on and produce a gruesome picture of the world today and I will say judgment begins in the house of God the world lies bleeding to death at our feet and what are we doing. I call by the grace of God that the Church gets right and "sharply" rebuked like the Cretans in Paul's epistle, so God help us in this cataclysmic last age to wake up from slumbering in Gethsemane.

(Other men on SI and the internet in general)

The constant bashing of true Men of God over and over, heeding your bashings reading what you say with an open heart and wearing myself reading what you have wrote with many, many words, never ever making any good solid points.

This website reeks with religion of word and no reality of supernatural reality. Like many are scared of it.
Proof of this is that in a debating thread tons of postings, a supernatural based thread, and hardly any postings.

Amen. I think Jesus does too.

One of the more common retorts to a disagreement is of this order sadly. You would paint all that is made available and all that gives you place to speak freely with such a broad brush shows a true lack of gratitude, ignorance and spiritual pride all it's own.

Who made you judges over the good people that fellowship here?

This 'website' is enormous in scope and depth and available resources, challenge your perspective, search out it's bowels, there is more spiritual truth here than you could ever possibly assimilate.

And please stay on topic if you must quarrel over things. It is a cheap and flippant way to go after everybody en masse by one or even a handful of postings. There is far more history here than you have the foggiest idea of.

just to address the issue of the cross in this "prophetic movement"
Ihop and Lou Engle, and Bill Johnson, Ptraicia king, etc...... have some of the most intense, revelatory messages concerning the cross, at IHOP in their school of ministry have an entire semester about the cross, These are cross loving people.

Concerning holiness, lou engle rick joyner, mike bickle, dutch sheets, and all these names that have been listed just gathered 80,000 people in tennessee to preach holiness and call massive fasting and repentence. Talking about hard preaching concerning the urgency of the hour for the pure and spotless bride to arise! Lou Engle and many of these leaders led 25,000 people through the streets of Nashville for a 3 mile silent repentence walk, and then I watched these men bearing their hearts and weeping before the Lord in their own failures, and repenting. thats not very self loving...

and you know when it comes to the use of lights and large gatherings, the internet, DVD's, and tv...
Im not saying I like it or take part in it, but they have quickened their ability to preach the gospel and train and equip the bride throughout the nations through media. why not? i bet you the apostles would have used it! geez whatever it takes to get out the gospel right? but if its flashy and not old testament im finding people on "SI" dont like it. sorry. but their reaching more people than you.

Many of you here have judged by talking about men in which you do not know their hearts.

If you were to slow down and read the responses of most of those who disagree with you, you would find their own explanations otherwise.

This is the crux of the matter and has always been so. It is a reverse accusation when things are made too personal and emotional, either of one's self or those in question.

No one is judging your heart but your statements.

This website reeks with religion of word and no reality of supernatural reality.

That is an indictment and an accusation, if you are going to make it do not be surprised if you are challenged on it.

I have no pride ...

Are you sure of that brother?

There was an earlier expression of concern and appreciation for those younger here. There is no reason to become offended or presume things personally, [i]you[/i] are not being attacked but are having your [u]statements[/u] questioned and for the most part that is what those who have a disagreement with the 'prophets' or those of this particular movement are also questioning.

That may not always come across very well and some of this I believe does push things a bit too far, to a point of provoking some of these responses. It makes it a challenge to all of us to both thwart presumption and guard against either taking or making things too personal.

Hi everyone.

Wallbuilder, welcome to the forums.

I wanted to ask you something about this statement that you made here...

"Until anyone here has results even 1/2 of that, there's nothing more to be said."

Brother, this statement seems very arrogant.

Brother, are you really in the place to make that statement?

Chris

Brother Mike, how are you?

"Rick Joyner, Brian McClaren, and NT Wright have one thing in common...they are inventors."

The thought comes to mind how Nadab and Abihu tried to invent a new way to worship God...

"And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace." -Leviticus 10: 1-3

The context here is that God had just come down in glory and, in the heat of the moment, perhaps with much zeal and sincere desire to worship God, seeing what had just happened, that [b]they gave place to an impluse[/b], even a religous impulse, but not according to the will of God. And God was not pleased.

Paul the Apostle says,

"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

[i]...a zeal of God[/i]

[i]...but not according to knowledge[/i]

I suspect and fear that many of the [i]prophetic[/i] utterances being given today through the media airwaves are soulish impulses gushing forth out of the hearts of those who are speaking. And these impulses are being put in the pure and holy mouth of God.

What a tremendous thing to claim you speak for Almighty God.

Chris

"For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."

[i]...and trembleth at my word[/i]

Is there not any fear in speaking the words of Almighty God?

If God expects that those who hear His word tremble, would He not expect the same of those who speak it?

There are laughing prophets today.

What of those that tremble for fear of what they are saying and what they are doing?

To utter words on behalf of a being Who's length and breadth compasses ETERNITY!

"Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness."

[i]...because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness[/i]

SI mediator person:
sure there is always need for a greater awakening to holiness, but in every part of the church from catholic to baptist to pentecostal I mean every part, every denomination has there failures concerning holiness. Who is walking in the true fear of the Lord?

To use the "proof of holiness" in their life is hard to use against them, because who does have proof? show me one?

but thats what the call Nashville with Lou Engle was all about, it wasnt about prophesy, it wasnt about miracle, it was about marrying a generation back to Jesus through weeping and repentence, the first 3 hours of the gathering I wept uncontrollable over the issue of sin in the church. the leaders, everyone listed here, wept and wept over holiness, wheres the proof? its in their tears. its in their cries for it to manifest.

Im not walking in full maturity of holiness today, and neither are 99% of the church, but man i weep for it, I long for it. and I know so do these men.

Ive prayed with Lou Engle and many of these men. Ive never seen such dedication to this call. you can listen to their teachings and watch their shows and roll your eyes, but friends i kow these men's heart, ive wept with a few of them. Their hearts are broken for the body of Christ.

Their donctrine isnt sound. neither is yours (im not saying that acussingly but i mean lets be humble here, we dont got it, we havent arrived). But man they want to see Jesus return, they want to glorify Jesus, they want to see this generation of sons of God, holy and upright arise on the earth.

Their donctrine isnt sound. neither is yours (im not saying that acussingly but i mean lets be humble here, we dont got it, we havent arrived)

Brother, having sound doctine has nothing to do with "arriving" as the Apostle Paul hadn't arrived, yet his doctrine was sound, and his doctine is Holy Scripture. God holds us responsible for light presently imparted. Paul exhorted Timothy to keep sound doctrine. One can have sound doctine this side of glorification; and without sound doctine and holiness, I contend, we will not experience the "arrival".

When you line up these self-proclaimed prophets' teachings and breathings and utterances, they must conform to sound doctine.

Brother Paul

I respect you all because you are smart with the word. But when it comes to men of God who believe in the supernatural, it seems to me here on "SI" are swiftly labeled false prophet. I don’t and will never understand your divisive reasoning.

Probably why I see so many postings on "SI" about loneliness..

You see so many postings about loneliness because men like A. W. Tozer and Leonard Ravenhill, to name only a few, (the list would be huge!) mentioned it so often.

It has been since buried deep in the thread, and I cannot remember who said it, but I thought it needed to be pointed out.

Somebody said that for a prophet to merely "miss it" doesn't constitute being a false prophet. Rather, to be a false prophet, one needs to prophesy something that leads people into idolatry. And so long as nobody does that, they aren't "false." Such, which is a common teaching in the prophetic movement, is simply a naive understanding of what the prophetic person and their utterance truly is. For when we truly examine what the prophetic person and their message is, then to spot the counterfeit is easy.

First, Moses says "The Lord shall raise up for you a prophet..." I like to put emphasis on the idea here of raising up. Like Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones, the prophetic man is truly a person of the resurrection. That is, who they are and what they say issues out of being "raised up." Without this raising up, they cannot be prophetic. And without this raising up, one can never hope to speak something to a valley full of dry bones that has the ability to not only put flesh on them, but cause them to live. If this prophet has not been raised up, then what hope has he to raise a valley full of dry bones, yet alone to breathe life into them?

Secondly, one must be sent by God. "Whom shall I send? Who shall go for Us?" asked the Lord when searching for an Isaiah whom He could send. And this forever must be the basis of one's speaking- that is, one's being sent. For, as Art Katz has pointed out, there is a difference between "went" and "sent." We have a lot of people going to and fro, and doing a lot of great things in the name of God. But how many do we have that are going to and fro that have truly been sent?

And it is the issue of "sent" that distinguishes the true prophet from the false prophet. The false prophet might indeed have a prophetic calling on his life. But unless he be sent and given a message, he will be speaking out of keeping with his calling. He will be speaking "presumptuously," for the Lord did not send him.

And this was the complaint of Jeremiah against the false prophets of his day. Not all of them prophesied people so as to lead them into idolatry. Rather, they were prophetic people who had a message of peace and comfort to the nation of Judah suffering at the hands of Babylon. Yet Jeremiah says they were false because their message didn't have it's origin in God's sending. "I did not send these prophets, but they ran. I did not speak to them, but they prophesied."

There was a great hurt in Jeremiah's heart over this very thing. For the prophets claimed to have a message from God, which in time, proved to be false. These men "missed it." And it wasn't to Jeremiah the issue of growing in one's gifting. Rather, it was the issue of God's sending. For God qualifies those whom He calls, and He equips those whom He sends. As the Lord said of the prophets He would raise up, "I will put my words in their mouth and they shall speak all that I command them to speak."

If there is anything a prophet is, he is real. Being a prophetic messenger called and sent by God is ultimately the issue of reality. Has God called? Has God sent? If so, then the man called and sent will have a message burning on his lips that he shall speak at God's commanding. And if the prophet is presumptuous to speak a message in the name of God that God did not give him, then then while God might have called him, He did not send him. And if God did not send him, then the prophet is playing make-believe. Or as Jeremiah said, prophesying words out of their own imaginations. Which is to say, not of God. Which is to say, it is not real, and it is false.

For as Moses pointed out, the one whom God sends will have their message come to pass, because it was God's word, and God's word will not return to Him void. It will accomplish the thing He "sent" it out to do. But the message that does not come to pass is obviously, according to Moses, not of God. Such a person, the Scriptures teach, is not sent.

So, you see, the issue of "missing it" is much greater than silly doctrines that say, "Oh, I'm just growing in my gift." The issue of growing in one's prophetic gifting is never considered in Scripture. The only things for which the Scripture is ever concerned, has the man that is purporting to give a message in the name of God one whom God has raised up, and is that man sent? For if he is, then not one of his words will fail. For he is a real prophet. All others, simply are false. They are false not simply because they said something that ended up not being true, but because they were not true to begin with.

Their doctrine isnt sound. neither is yours

That's rather presumptuous of you, isn't it? While none of us might be perfect in regard to our doctrine, I don't think any of us would hold to doctrines that are rather goofy. Many in the prophetic movement have a tendency towards novelty in regard to doctrine, and things that are sometimes frankly just goofy. E.g. Rick Joyner's heavenly conversation with Paul.

Scripture warns us about those who do not hold to sound doctrine. Sound doesn't mean perfect, but doesn't leave room for things that are frankly wild.