Finite Perfection vs. Infinite Perfection

Perfection in the Greek refers to being
complete, made sound and whole. True,
we are limited in our knowledge and our
comprehension of God's purposes and will
for us. But by His Holy Spirit He is
working to complete us and perfect us in
the likeness of His Son. :-D

Is Christ finite?

Is Christ in you?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The Christ in us is infinite and that make us infinite, by His work on the Cross and By the Fathers Seed birthed in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Perfect is perfect - to me finite perfect is a contradiction. If it not infinitely or completely perfect then it is not perfect. It is like saying that it is just kind of perfect or that it is partially perfect - it makes no sense.

The point that I was making is that sanctification is a process that will continue your whole life because there will always be unknown areas of your life were you fall short of the infinitely perfect love, faith, patients, mercy, humility, etc. of Jesus Christ - and yes falling short or missing the mark is sin by it's very definition. I had a brother tell me recently "well I don't call that sin" I answered him by saying "when God reveals those areas and puts His finger on the such things do you need to repent of where you have fallen short and missed the mark and if you continue to blatantly fall short and miss the mark then are you on your way to hell?" He answered "yes you have to repent and turn when God shows you were you have fallen short and if you don't then you are on your way to hell" I think it was painfully clear how silly it was to not call such things sin. But this brother couldn't call such things either sin or in-perfections because if he did then his whole theology would start to fall apart - he had to call them mistakes. I told him "if it is missing the mark or falling short and you have to repent and turn from it then the Bible calls it sin and I am going to call it sin"

I am sure you are aware that there are areas in you life that the Lord has not reveled to you yet where you fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. I am also reasonably sure you would agree when the Lord reveals these areas to you then you must repent and turn from them. Know I don't care if you call it sin or not - it doesn't matter to me what you call it as long as you agree that:

1. You have unknown areas in your life where you fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. thus you are not perfect.

2. When the Lord shows you these area of in-perfection in your life where you miss the mark or fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. you must repent and turn from what ever it is that the Lord shows you.

If you can at very least agree upon these two simple points then I don't care what you call it or what terminology you use. You can piddle over words and definitions if you want but have no desire to do so. Can you at least agree with these two simple points?

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Perfect is perfect - to me finite perfect is a contradiction. If it not infinitely or completely perfect then it is not perfect. It is like saying that it is just kind of perfect or that it is partially perfect - it makes no sense.

By definition, perfect does not mean "infinitely perfect" otherwise the word would only ever apply to God. How many times have you heard the word perfect used in your life?

In a sport: "That was a [i]perfect[/i] play!"
At work: "That procedure worked [i]perfectly[/i]!"
In a board-game: "I've [i]perfected[/i] my strategy!"

These are all proper uses of the word. You don't have to be perfect in every area to be perfect in some areas.

Therefore we say that we are perfect [i]in holiness[/i]. We are entirely set apart for God with nothing held back.
We say that we are perfect [i]in righteousness[/i]. In all matters of righteousness (of which their is one: love) we are perfect, lacking nothing.

It is very silly to say that God requires, for instance, perfection [i]in mathematics[/i]. It is no sin if you are not skilled at calculus or other higher math. This seems to be, in essence, what has been said: if someone makes a mistake on a math problem, they are sinning.

1. You have unknown areas in your life where you fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. thus you are not perfect.

I for one disagree with this. Love fulfills the law; if you have love, you lack nothing.
If you love God with all you heart, and love your neighbor as yourself, then you lack nothing.
If I am full of love, I have no "hidden areas of sin". Did Jesus have any "unknown areas of sin"? No! Then need we? No! For the life of Christ is made manifest in me!

You have just qualified yourself for religous pride and being handed over to a reprobate mind... when a messenger of God comes to you one days and points out a secret area in your life or a root of something that needs to be dealt with you can simply reply "I have no unknown areas of sin in my life"... I seem to remember another group of religous people who lived that way.

Jim, I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. I also fear you have constructed a straw man argument.

If a prophet shows me a sin I need to repent of, I would not say, "I have no unkown sin."
Rather I would repent and mourn that I have deceived myself for so long by saying, "I know God" for no one can know God if they continue in sin.

I hope you see the truth of this - it is all throughout the New Testament.

Perfecting holiness in fear of the Lord (and walking in no known, willfull, continual, or deliberate sin)

How can someone walk in unkonwn and unwillfuly sin? It is not sin if it is unkonwn and unwillful.

"If our conscience does not condemn us we have confidence before God."

Nile

[color=000099]Phl 3:12 [b]Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected;[/b] but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
Phl 3:13 Brethren, [b]I do not count myself to have apprehended;[/b] but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
Phl 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:15 [b]Therefore let us, as many as are [i]mature,[/i] have this mind; [i]and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.[/i][/b]
Phl 3:16 Nevertheless, to the [b]degree[/b] that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Gal 2:21 [b]"I do not set aside the [i]grace of God;[/i][/b] for if righteousness comes through the law, [i]then Christ died in vain."[/i]

1Jo 1:8 [b]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/b]
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 [b]If we say that we have not sinned, [i]we make Him a liar,[/i] and His word is not in us.[/b]

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are [b][i]being[/i] transformed[/b] into the same image [b][i]from[/i] glory [i]to[/i] glory,[/b] just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:4 [b]Now to him who works, [i]the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.[/i]
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, [i]his faith[/i] is accounted for righteousness,[/b]
Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 [b]to the praise of the glory of His [i]grace,[/i] by which He made us [i]accepted[/i] in the Beloved.[/b]
Eph 1:7 [b]In Him we have redemption [i]through His blood,[/i] the forgiveness of sins, according to the [i]riches of His grace[/i][/b]
Eph 1:8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 [b]In Him you also [i]trusted,[/i][/b] after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, [b]having [i]believed,[/i] you were [i]sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,[/i][/b]
Eph 1:14 who is the [b][i]guarantee[/i] of our inheritance[/b] until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 2:8 [b]For [i]by grace[/i] you have been saved [i]through faith,[/i] and that not of yourselves; it is the [i]gift of God,[/i][/b]
Eph 2:9 [b]not of [i]works,[/i] lest anyone should [i]boast.[/i][/b]

Col 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 since we heard of your [b]faith in Christ Jesus[/b] and of your love for all the saints;
Col 1:5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the [b]truth of the [i]gospel,[/i][/b]
Col 1:6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and [b]knew the [i]grace of God[/i] in truth.[/b]

Hbr 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Hbr 4:10 For [b]he who has entered His rest has himself also [i]ceased from his works[/i][/b] as God did from His.
Hbr 4:11 [b]Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of [i]disobedience.[/i][/b]
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hbr 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, [b]let us hold fast our [i]confession.[/i][/b]
Hbr 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Hbr 4:16 [b]Let us therefore come boldly to the [i]throne of grace,[/i] that we may [i]obtain mercy[/i] and find [i]grace[/i] to help in time of need.[/b]

Hbr 12:3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.
Hbr 12:4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, [b]striving against sin.[/b]
Hbr 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
Hbr 12:6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
Hbr 12:7 Ifyou endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
Hbr 12:8 But [b]if you are [i]without chastening,[/i] of which all have become partakers, then you are [i]illegitimate[/i] and not sons.[/b]

Gal 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you [b]in the [i]grace[/i] of Christ,[/b] to a different gospel,
Gal 1:7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 [i]But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, [b]let him be accursed.[/b][/i]
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now [i]I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, [b]let him be accursed.[/b][/i] [/color]

Some good points Jim. I'll get back to you with my thoughts on them later.

Nile

By definition, perfect does not mean "infinitely perfect" otherwise the word would only ever apply to God. How many times have you heard the word perfect used in your life?

In a sport: "That was a perfect play!"
At work: "That procedure worked perfectly!"
In a board-game: "I've perfected my strategy!"

These are all proper uses of the word. You don't have to be perfect in every area to be perfect in some areas.

Just so we understand - when you say perfect you really mean only partially perfect with unknown in-perfections and not entirely or completely perfect? If that is the case then we are in agreement.

Jesse,

In order to answer your questions correctly I need to get a better understanding of where you are coming from. Please answer the following question with just a simple yes or no.

1. There is no unknown area of or in my life where I fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc thus I am perfect having the same level of perfection as Jesus both known and unknown in thought, word, deed, action, motive, faith, and love.

Yes or No

2. I realize that I fall short and miss the mark in unkonwn areas of my life that God has yet to put His finger on that fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus etc, etc, etc, etc thus I am not perefect in the sense and comparison to the perfection of Jesus Chrsit and I am a life long and even an eternal work in progreess in this regard.

Yes or No

3. Is falling short or missing the mark one of the Biblical definitions for sin.

Yes or No

4. I agree with Scriptures and the Word of God that there is a distinction and difference between willful and deliberate sin or committing sin and un-willful or un-deliberate sin

Yes or No

5. I disagree with Scriptures and the Word of God that there is a distinction and difference between willful and deliberate sin or committing sin and un-willful or un-deliberate sin and choose rather to hold to my own man made doctrine, human logic and philosophy because what the Scripture says destroys my own understanding, theology and logic.

Yes or No

If you answer these question I will have a better understanding of where you are coming from and can better then answer the question you purpose. Now don't try to weasle out of the first two questions - they are easy and simple and need to be answered so we can all understand where you are coming from.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Perfect is perfect - to me finite perfect is a contradiction. If it not infinitely or completely perfect then it is not perfect. It is like saying that it is just kind of perfect or that it is partially perfect - it makes no sense.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

How then are we perfect? 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Perfection, by whom?

Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

2Cr 13:9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, [even] your perfection.

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hbr 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron

Again, Perfection by whom?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

1Cr 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

This says we are perfect in Christ Jesus. Are we not to think on these things and consider ourselves to be this way? There is only One that is perfect and He has been birthed in us. We have no reason to glory in anything except the Christ that is in us. He is our Glory and perfection, our only boasting is in Him, He is our Glory. To make myself say this is not true and I am a sinner and will never be righteous or sanctified our redeemed or wise in Christ is to say God is a liar and Christ died in vain, He cannot save me and make me perfect, even by birthing His own Son in me. I am condemned in everything I do and their is always going to be condemnation even to those that believe that Jesus Christ Is the Son of God. So when I can become perfect in Gods eyes I will be saved and go to heaven.

But God says: Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

We can be perfect. Our preaching should be no wise different to the Word of God, "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:"

In Christ: Phillip

Perfection of finite beings is really being 'fit for purpose'. In this sense a child may be perfect yet with room for growth and development. The same is true in the spiritual realm.

That is fine and true - I would certainly use a better term then perfect because many have the same understanding and reaction to the term perfect as I do, but like I said I don't want to piddle over word meanings if we mean the same thing at heart. The point is we must be VERY careful to make the distinction and make sure we know what people mean when we say "perfect" because there can be great misunderstanding when using such terms. When trying to clear up meaning with one person I was talking to about this very subject I said -

when you mean perfect are you saying there is nothing in me known or unknown that falls short of the perfect perfection of Jesus Christ Himself meaning that there is nothing left in me known or unknown that falls short of the perfect perfection of Jesus Christ and there is nothing left for the Lord to put His finger on because the process of sanctification is finished and everything known or unknown that falls short of the perfect perfection of Jesus Christ has been removed and I fall short of this perfection know or unknown in no way shape or form at all?

And he answered - yes that is exactly what I mean.

Now I think that everyone would agree this type of extreme perfection lifting ones self up on the same level of Jesus Christ Himself is tantamount to blasphemy and heresy.

The bottom line is we must make sure that others understand what we are saying and stay away from terms such as perfect and perfection that cause misunderstanding and when heard can viewed by different people in different ways.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

How can any person put himself on the level of perfection that is in Christ? There is only one way, That is what God has done with His Son that is born again in me. God the Father see's me exactly as He see's His that is in me. Christ is only way we may be perfect and we are to know this. In knowing this there is "Now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.
That is why we are to think on these things;
Philippians 4:4-8 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

"He who's mind is kept on Him, He will keep in perfect peace".

It is in Christ Jesus our Lord that our perfection comes to fruition. Unless a corn or wheat fall into the Ground and die it will not produce any fruit. Even Jesus spoke this about Himself. Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Did we die? Can we see ourselves dead, as dead to sin as Christ was on the Cross, those dead shoulders covered with blood with His dead head hanging on His dead chest, Crucified, The Lord of Glory.

Galatians 2:18-21 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. (((((I am crucified with Christ:)))))) nevertheless I live; ((((((yet not I,)))))) but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh (((((((I live by the faith of the Son of God,)))))))) who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

He Jesus Christ would be alone unless he died on the Cross, and in dieing He brings forth much fruit. We are that fruit unto the Father, for He said, "I do nothing unless my Father says so".

Jhn 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

We should speak the same, I am perfect only in the Work of My Father who has birthed me and He by the Son and the Teacher Holy Spirit is teaching us, and by Him only can we speak these things.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

He that has started a perfect work in us will accomplish it until the day of physical resurrection. In Christ: Phillip

Perfected, being perfected and will be perfect.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

According to this reasoning Peter did not know God...
Galatians 2:11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

I'm not sure what to make of that passage. It does say that they were "led astray" or "carried away" in other translations. Does this give insight?
I need to do some more study of this passage; the way I see it right now doesn't line up with any credible doctrines I have heard.

Hebrew 10 speaks of willfully sinning, why is there a qualifier to sinning, that is willfully or deliberately. That is a line of seperation between mercy and wrath, life and death, the saint and the hypocrite.

But...in the passage you just gave Peter is called a hypocrite?

Also, is it possible that this is not a qualifier but an adjective added for emphasis?

One more thing, could you give some examples of unknown or willful sin? Some from the Bible and some from personal experience would be cool. If I could fathom some possibilities I might be more open to the idea.

Nile

That is fine and true - I would certainly use a better term then perfect because many have the same understanding and reaction to the term perfect as I do, but like I said I don't want to piddle over word meanings if we mean the same thing at heart. The point is we must be VERY careful to make the distinction and make sure we know what people mean when we say "perfect" because there can be great misunderstanding when using such terms.

This is true but where are we getting our definition of 'perfection' from? Popular evangelicalism or the word of God? The cure for abuse is not non-use but right-use. If the evangelical world is using the word wrongly we must point that out but to abandon a biblical concept because some people misuse or misunderstand it is not the right solution.

It results in a mindset where the Bible standard is brought down to the level of human comprehension and attainability. Personally I have never claimed 'perfection' but I have a perfect Saviour who is able to keep me from falling.

The loyal angels are called 'holy angels' in scripture but the glorious beings who surrounded the throne had no consciousness of their own holiness but only of God's. Similarly the 'saint' (holy one) will have no consciousness of his own holiness but only of God's.

It is said of Wesley that although he preached 'Christian Perfection' he never claimed it. That is not to say that he denied he enjoyed it but simply that such a testimony would never have occurred to him. The child of God will ever, like John Baptist, point away to another saying 'Behold the Lamb'.

Am I able to walk perfectly on earth? Wrong question! and one that can only cause friction. Is he able to keep me from falling? Is he able to save me to the uttermost? Is he able to make all grace abound towards me? Is he able to make me a partaker of his divine nature? Is he able to give me all things that pertain to life and godliness?

These are the questions which will get our eyes on the real answer to our need.

Ah, thanks Ron for jumping in. I'm thankful that God has given you experience in expressing these things. I definitely struggle expressing it!

That is exactly what I have been trying to say all along Ron. We need to be very careful about how we use words when the Biblical definition, modern evangelical definition and societal understand are different. The definition of perfect I was talking about was the basic societal understanding based on Weber's definition and dictionary definition which is

Perfect - 1 a : being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS

but to abandon a biblical concept because some people misuse or misunderstand it is not the right solution.

It would be terrible to abandon the Biblical concept due to others misuse - we should only abandon the word that cause all of the confusion or misunderstanding or else VERY thoroughly explain EXACTLY what we mean when we are using a word that has a different dictionary and societal meaning the the Biblical definition - but NEVER should we abandon the Biblical concept!!!

It is said of Wesley that although he preached 'Christian Perfection' he never claimed it. That is not to say that he denied he enjoyed it but simply that such a testimony would never have occurred to him. The child of God will ever, like John Baptist, point away to another saying 'Behold the Lamb'.

Actually I do believe he did deny to having obtained it more then once, but that is neither here nor there. But I have actually heard people claim to have obtained not only "Christian perfection" as Wesley taught, but to go even father and claim complete sinless perfection. This is sad because in order to make such a claim as you have so aptly put one would have to take there focus so far away from Christ and place in upon a doctrine and self rather then on Jesus. This type of mis-focus is VERY dangerous.

Am I able to walk perfectly on earth? Wrong question!

It is the wrong question in general, but rather it can be the right question in certain circumstance and when dealing with someone who claims an extreme form of perfection that goes beyond the realm of Scripture - then the question, as I said in certain circumstances be the apt question to ask. Don't mean to split hair Ron - I agree it is the wrong question to ask in most cases :-)

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

Peter was not given what Paul was given. You won't hear Peter speak of Christ in you until his last epistle. The reason Paul confronted Peter, he was living and worshiping with the Gentile Christians and when the bus form Jerusalem drove up, he went to the Law keepers immediately and Paul confronted him for this reason. Paul had been given Christ in you and the Cross, Him crucified and rebirthed in the believer. That is another person was in Paul and it was Christ. Peter did not understand this until the years later in his epistles he said: 1 Peter 1:18-24 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: Peter learned from Paul the born again experience, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. He also said these things were hard to understand. 2 Peter 3:12-18 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

These things today are hard to understand, even those that have been born again don't know that they have a new person living in them, It is the Spirit of Christ. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. What are we to do now that this Christ is in us. Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Paul was the only one that was given this revelation, and it being direct from Jesus Christ Himself.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel.

Peter never mentioned The cross or Christ in him in Acts. Paul was the first one to bring this to the Body of Christ in 1 Thess, his first epistle. Then in all his epistles. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

In Christ: Phillip

Jesse,

In order to answer your questions correctly I need to get a better understanding of where you are coming from. Please answer the following question with just a simple yes or no.

1. There is no unknown area of or in my life where I fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc thus I am perfect having the same level of perfection as Jesus both known and unknown in thought, word, deed, action, motive, faith, and love.

Yes or No

2. I realize that I fall short and miss the mark in unkonwn areas of my life that God has yet to put His finger on that fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus etc, etc, etc, etc thus I am not perefect in the sense and comparison to the perfection of Jesus Chrsit and I am a life long and even an eternal work in progreess in this regard.

Yes or No

3. Is falling short or missing the mark one of the Biblical definitions for sin.

Yes or No

Jesse - Can you at least answer just these three question? I would like to answer your questions, but I really need to know where you are coming from first.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

I don't believe sin will be in Heaven but neither do I believe that we will ever be infinitely perfect.

We are finite and can have nothing other then finite perfection. And God requires from finite creatures nothing other then finite perfection.

hmmm... not a whole lot of scripture used for the statements you made. does the bible even address this?

*Edit: added context*

Perfection of finite beings is really being 'fit for purpose'. In this sense a child may be perfect yet with room for growth and development. The same is true in the spiritual realm.

:) Amen Brother!

*edit: added context*

Is he able to keep me from falling? Is he able to save me to the uttermost? Is he able to make all grace abound towards me? Is he able to make me a partaker of his divine nature? Is he able to give me all things that pertain to life and godliness?

Hallelujah! What a Saviour!

He is able! Praise Jesus! :-D

I thought it would be profitable to see how the Bible builds its definition of the word 'perfect'. Webers is of very little value to a Bible student. Earthly concepts are in constant flux but God has given us an unchanging pattern of use and expectation.

[color=0033FF]Gen. 6:9 (KJVS) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen. 17:1 (KJVS) And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Lev. 22:21 (KJVS) And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Deut. 18:13 (KJVS) Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Deut. 25:15 (KJVS) But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deut. 32:4 (KJVS) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

1Sam. 14:41 (KJVS) Therefore Saul said unto the LORD God of Israel, Give a perfect lot. And Saul and Jonathan were taken: but the people escaped.

2Sam. 22:31 (KJVS) As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.[/color]

Already the sense of the word is emerging. The Hebrew word "tamiym" is usually translated 'without blemish' and is scattered throughout the OT; Gen 6:9; 17:1; Ex 12:5; 29:1; Lev 1:3, 10; 3:1, 6, 9; 4:3, 23, 28, 32; 5:15, 18; 6:6; 9:2-3; 14:10; 22:19, 21; 23:12, 15, 18; 25:30; Num 6:14; 19:2; 28:3, 9, 11, 19, 31; 29:2, 8, 13, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29, 32, 36; Deut 18:13; 32:4; Josh 10:13; 24:14; Judg 9:16, 19; 1Sam 14:41; 2Sam 22:24, 26, 31, 33; Job 12:4; 36:4; 37:16; Psa 15:2; 18:23, 25, 30, 32; 19:7; 37:18; 84:11; 101:2, 6; 119:1, 80; Prov 1:12; 2:21; 11:5, 20; 28:10, 18; Ezek 15:5; 28:15; 43:22-23, 25; 45:18, 23; 46:4, 6, 13; Amos 5:10. It derives from the word "tamam" which means complete.

In this sense it is a very has a telling Greek equivalent in the ideas of 'teleios' which also has a sense of 'completeness' about it.

It is significant that many individuals in the OT are said to be, or expected to be, 'perfect'. Noah, Abraham, David, Asa, David's warriors, Solomon, Job... When we think of these men it becomes clear that we need to understand how God is using the word 'perfect'.

Another word for 'perfect' in the OT is derived from Shalom, peace. It does not signify absence of war but everything being in its right place and order; wholeness.

We may have to constantly redefine the word 'perfect' in our preaching to ensure that the listener understands that we are using the word as God uses it rather than as Webers. Nevertheless to abandon the word is an abdication of one of the central truths of the gospel, namely that Christ did not only die to save us from the consequence of our sin but that through the gift of His Spirit we might be changed into his image.

That change is, indeed, progressive... from glory to glory. But regeneration restores the glory of God in the nature of man and from there he is expected to go from grace to grace, faith to faith, glory to glory.

We may have to constantly redefine the word 'perfect' in our preaching to ensure that the listener understands that we are using the word as God uses it rather than as Webers.

If you are using the perfect and THOROUGHLY explaining the the Biblical use of the word in contrast to Webster's and common societal use of the word - then I have no problem. I also have no problem explaining and preaching as you put it "one of the central truths of the gospel" without using the word and avoiding myriads of confusion and debate - either way is fine with me as long the Biblical use is being used and explained. The real problem is and I know that is shocking, but there are many, even here on Sermonindex who are not using the Biblical definition at all but rather even a hyper form of Webster's definition. This error is what needs to be brought out and correct for two reasons 1. It take the focus off Jesus and puts it on an impossible doctrine 2. It ruins peoples faith and brings them under self-righteousness, spiritual pride, judgmentalism and condemnation.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com

So, as Campbell Morgan once, said... "I believe in perfection; I certainly don't believe in imperfection."

I believe that lambs could be perfect for sacrifice, that Noah was perfect in his genealogy, that God expected Abraham to be perfect. I believe that God is perfect, and that angels are perfect and that saints may be perfect saints.

I don't believe that lambs can be perfect saints, and I don't believe that saints can be perfect angels, and I don't believe that angels can be perfect in divinity. The word has to be used in its context and the context has to be explained, but the word must not be abandoned. In the face of constant failure and disappointment let God be true and lets not be afraid to say what God expects he can achieve.

[color=0033FF]Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Hebrews 13:20-21 KJVS)[/color]

The word has to be used in its context and the context has to be explained, but the word must not be abandoned.

I guess we will have to disagree - Like I said I have no problem if someone is using the word correctly and THOROUGHLY explaining what they mean when using the word - but in most cases it should be abandon because it causes too much misunderstanding, confusion and problems, as you yourself said -

"Am I able to walk perfectly on earth? Wrong question! and one that can only cause friction."

There are many cases where the word should be abandon as in the question you posed in the above quote.

I am not at all afraid to say what God expects we can achive and explaining and preaching it quite thoroughly and clearly without using words that cause misunderstanding, friction and confusion.

In the face of constant failure and disappointment let God be true and lets not be afraid to say what God expects we can achieve.

amen! Amen!! & AMEN!!! :-) :-) :-) :-)

Just preach the truth and explain it clearly and you can use whatever word you like. :-) ;-) :-) ;-)

Patrick
www.revialarmy.com

In the face of constant failure and disappointment let God be true and lets not be afraid to say what God expects we can achieve.

Actually I have a typing error in here. I had intended to write..."what God expects He can achieve".

There are many cases where the word should be abandon as in the question you posed in the above quote.

What other Bible words are you prepared to abandon?

Many don't like the word propitiation because is intimates an angry God whose wrath has been turned away. Do we accommodate their dislikes?

Many don't like the idea of blood sacrifice because it does similarly.

Almost the whole church misuses the word 'condemn' and 'confession' and the whole church does misuse the word 'church'. Do we abandon these words too.

Comtemporary language is always degrading. It is the greatest snare of our enemy to keep the words but change their meaning. The best possible translation for the OT/NT words translated 'perfect' is 'perfect'. What words are you suggesting as an alternative?

ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS ARE PERFECT! that is, all true Christians love God and love their neighbor; love fullfills the law; loving Jesus automaticly includes keeping all His commandments, because He only commands us to love!

Moral perfection (a pure intention/benevolent heart) is not only attainable in this life, but has been attained by all those truly converted - true Christians have a new heart, a pure heart, and therefore love God and neighbor.

You cannot make statements like 'all true Christians are perfect' without defining all of the terms.

But...wasn't that the point of his post, to define all of the terms?
I certainly have a clear picture of what he means when says, "All Christians are perfect."

Nile

No, he isn't. What is doing is creating circular definition in which a Christian is defined by his perfection. I believe strongly in Christian Perfection, but I reject the absolutism of Finney and Jesse. The inevitable consequence is that we judge whether or not a man is a 'Christian' by the perceived perfection of his walk.

If there were no difference between alive in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit Paul could not have written...

[color=0033FF]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25 NKJV)[/color]

There is a difference between being and doing. unless you are a follower of Finner, as is Jesse.