Basic Scripture Texts (Total Depravity)

Ormly wrote:
I'm still looking for one that says he was. Did I miss it somewhere?

Same here.

Ormly wrote:
I'm still looking for one that says he was. Did I miss it somewhere?

[b]Romans 7:22-23[/b] [color=990000]For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
[b]23:[/b] But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.[/color]

If Paul, before he was saved, delighted in the Law of God according to his "inward man" and war with the Law God with the "law of his mind" this would prove "Total Depravity" to be false.

Question: Why wouldn't/couldn't one be converted to Christ for salvation, [I don't believe conversion is synomynous with "begotten again" 1Pet.1.3]since rational thinking can accomplish this? To be "born again" is to be chosen by God. Ergo, it is not something man benefits from by reciting a sinners prayer. Can you see that?

by Logic on 2007/8/10 0:15:42

Romans 7:22-23 For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
23: But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul, before he was saved, delighted in the Law of God according to his "inward man" and war with the Law God with the "law of his mind" this would prove "Total Depravity" to be false.

7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Romans 7:7-25

In this case, The Law gives Paul's concience a standard beyond his own fallen self-righteouness, one that is divine in nature. This immediately creates a conflict between his soul which delights in the Moral Law now that it is no longer a source of condemnation for sin having been rescued from Radical Corruption, and the flesh which still yearns for the sinful nature to be expressed. The law, serving as the Holy Spirit's chosen medium in the process of regeneration to bring about the revealation of "sin, righteousness and the judgment to come", leads an unsaved person to the cross, yet it also leads the believer back as they use it to examine themselves to see the need for the savior.

As we mature in Him, this need arising from a greater revelation of our complete sinfulness becomes more and more apparent, as does the realisation of Christ's saving grace that follows.

Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, "I have made my heart pure;
I am clean from my sin"?

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that(A) the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Mark 7:21-23
For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.

Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Romans 8:5-9
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Titus 3:3
For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.

by Ormly on 2007/8/10 0:12:11

Question: Why wouldn't/couldn't one be converted to Christ for salvation, [I don't believe conversion is synomynous with "begotten again" 1Pet.1.3]since rational thinking can accomplish this? To be "born again" is to be chosen by God. Ergo, it is not something man benefits from by reciting a sinners prayer. Can you see that?

Nowhere in scripture does it say or demonstrate than man has been or is saved by the act of prayer, recited or otherwise. If such were possible, it would be works-based salvation on man's part rather than the grace of God.

brother, i see what you are saying. so what i would probably call a person not being born again, you would call them converted right?? you are saying that they may be converted (persuaded that Christ is the answer), but not born again of the Spirit right?? do you believe that someone who is converted is saved?? i wouldn't believe that they were, if i correctly understand how you use the word converted.

anyways, thanks brother ormly for taking time out and writing me back on this.

brother ormly, thank you for your patience and kindness in discussing this issue with me. i appreciate it.

intrcssr83 wrote:

by Logic on 2007/8/10 0:15:42

Romans 7:22-23 For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
23: But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul, before he was saved, delighted in the Law of God according to his "inward man" and war with the Law God with the "law of his mind" this would prove "Total Depravity" to be false.

In this case, The Law gives Paul's concience a standard beyond his own fallen self-righteouness, one that is divine in nature. This immediately creates a conflict between his soul which delights in the Moral Law now that it is no longer a source of condemnation for sin having been rescued from Radical Corruption, and the flesh which still yearns for the sinful nature to be expressed. The law, serving as the Holy Spirit's chosen medium in the process of regeneration to bring about the revealation of "sin, righteousness and the judgment to come", leads an unsaved person to the cross, yet it also leads the believer back as they use it to examine themselves to see the need for the savior.

As we mature in Him, this need arising from a greater revelation of our complete sinfulness becomes more and more apparent, as does the realisation of Christ's saving grace that follows.

I'm not sure what you said, sorry.

Romans 7 is pauls testemony before he was saved.
He was not [u]Totaly Drepraved[/u] to delight in the Law of God.
He was not [u]Totaly Drepraved[/u] that he would have a conflict with the Law of God and the standard of his moral conscience.

If "Totaly Drepravity" is true there would be no delight and no conflict with the Law of God.

For "Totaly Drepravity" to be true, the conflict would not be there because of apathy or indifference to the Law of God.

Since there is a conflict to the Law of God, proves that the depravity is not "Total"

Romans 7 is pauls testimony before he was saved.

No, it cannot be as no natural man delights in God's Law-
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God [b]after the inward man:[/b]

Now consider this verse with the surrounding verses-
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But [b]I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,[/b] and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The indwelling of sin will war against our members until the day of glorification, thus Paul's words in Galatians echo this-
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth(wars) against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

To further show that no natural can delight in the Law, consider-
Rom 7:14 For we know that [b]the law is spiritual:[/b] but I am carnal, sold under sin.

So if Paul delights in the law inwardly, he must have the Spirit, for the natural man cannot receive spiritual things. Natural man has no concern or delight to keep God's law.

The point of this passage is the struggle of the two natures, the one which is the body of sin, and the other the delight in the law of God. The struggle comes as one seeks to override the other, and thus we have a constant need for grace to walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the deeds of the flesh.

Brother abe here are some more-

Genesis 6:5, 6:11-12, 8:21
Deuteronomy 29:2-4
1 Kings 8:46
2 Chronicles 36:15-16
Job 14:4, 15:14-16
Psalms 2:2-3,5:9,14:1-3,50:16-17,51:5,58:3,143:2
Proverbs 5:22, 14:12, 20:9, 30:12
Ecclesiastes 7:20-29, 9:3
Ezekiel 11:19-20, 16:6, 36:26-27
Isaiah 1:2-8, 29:16, 40:6-8, 44:18-28, 48:8, 53:6, 64:6-7
Jeremiah 4:22, 9:5, 13:23, 17:1-9
Matthew 6:24, 7:18, 7:23-24, 10:20, 12:34-35, 15:13-19
Mark 10:26-27
Luke 8:11-12
John 1:13, 3:3,6-8, 3:19-20, 3:27, 4:14, 5:24, 6:37-51, 6:65, 8:19, 8:43-47, 10:28-30, 11:25, 15:5, 17:24
Romans 1:18-32, 3:9-24, 4:8, 5:12, 6:16-22, 7:14-18, 8:5-8, 8:28-39, 9:8, 9:20, 11:8, 11:32, 14:4
1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14, 3:20-21, 10:13, 15:21-22
2 Corinthians 1:9, 2:14, 4:8-9, 4:14, 9:8
Galatians 3:22
Ephesians 2:1-4, 2:12, 4:17-19
Colossians 1:21, 2:13
Philippians 1:6, 2:13
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Titus 1:15
Hebrews 11:6
James 1:14-17, 4:17
2 Timothy 4:3-4
2 Peter 2:13-19
1 John 1:8, 2:16

And some more to chew on-

1. Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Rom 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2.He is therefore unable

A)To do anything good

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Job 15:14-16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

Psa 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Rom 3:9-12 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

B)To believe in God (or come to him)

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh 8:43-45 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 12:37-41 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

C)To understand the truth

Joh 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

D)To seek God

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3.He is dead in sins

Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Joh 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Eph 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

4.He is blinded and corrupt in his heart

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mar 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in [by] God.

Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Eph 4:17-19 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

5.He is captive to sin and Satan

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

6.He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Mat 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Mar 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

Jam 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Really???
I have only been a Christian for a a year and a half. I look at TULIP (as a whole) and don't see it in my Scripture study. I absolutely see Total Depravity....it is an absolute Truth. We were created from an infinite God. We fell out of communion with Him. We are infinitly below Him and unable to even seek Him. Without His grace/love/mercy working in us and through us, we would not be able to respond to His call to salvation. Here how about I re-word it. Since God is infinite and we are finite...we'll call it infinite depravity. How's that? We are infinitley depraved of God in our sinful state.

Thom

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Sorry, this verse doesn't say anything about total depravity or being born a sinner. The Psalms say numerous times that God shapes in the womb.

1. We are shapen in iniquity [i]and it is God who shapes us thus.[/i]

or

2. The Psalms are poetic and sometimes use poetic language.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Again, poetic language to describe how evil the wicked are. Saying this means that all men are totally depraved from birth and can do nothing but evil all the time is reading way way into it.

Rom 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Hold it hold it. This is sloppy scripture exegesis..

Lets follow the analogy:

1.
by the offence
by the righteousness

2.
of one
of one

3.
judgment came
the free gift came

4.
upon all men
upon all men

5.
to condemnation
unto justification of life

Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon [b]all men[/b], justification also came upon [b]all men[/b].

Justification is not [b]forced[/b] upon all men.
Neither is condemnation [b]forced[/b] upon all men.

But both have [b]come[/b] upon all men: condemnation through Adam, and justification through Jesus.

It is the individuals choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.

If you live in sin, which has come upon all men by Adam, you will be condemned.
If you live in God, which has come upon all men by Jesus,you will be justified.

Nile

roaringlamb wrote:

Romans 7 is pauls testimony before he was saved.

No, it cannot be as no natural man delights in God's Law-
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God [b]after the inward man:[/b]

[b]Gal 1:14[/b] [color=990000]And advanced in the Jews' religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.[/color]
[b]Php 3:5-6[/b] [color=990000]Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
[b]:6[/b] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; [b]concerning the righteousness which is in the law, [u]blameless[/u].[/b] [/color]

roaringlamb wrote:
The point of this passage is the struggle of the two natures,

double-minded = Strongs Greek #1374
δίψυχος
dipsuchos
dip'-soo-khos
From G1364 and G5590; [b]two spirited[/b], that is, vacillating (in opinion or purpose): - [b]double souled[/b].
The theory of "two natures" is very bad, it is worng.

Paul, nor any Christian is not two spirited, double souled, or "two natured"

Romans 7 was Pauls pre-salvation Testemony.

[b]Jas 4:8[/b] [color=990000]Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, [b]you sinners[/b]; and purify your hearts, you [b]double-minded[/b].[/color]
A Christian is not a sinner.

The conclusion stands that "Total Depravity" is false.
Only depravity.

P.S.
[b]AMEN Nile!!![/b]

""You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 (HCSB) ...and I took that from a translation whose writers believes in total depravity. Here's another one I like: "I love
Whadda think, did I go wrong somewhere? Did I mis-apply these verses?"

As humbly as I can say yes you did mis-apply those verses. Jeremiah is talking to the elect of God (I do not mean "elect" in the sense of unconditional election..I don't agree with that view). Jeremiah is addressing people who have faith in God.

Jer. 29:1 This is the text of the letter that the prophet Jeremiah sent from Jerusalem to the surviving elders among the exiles and to the priests, the prophets and all the other people

In context the people Jer. was talking to already had faith in the true God. Not to those depraved from a knowledge of Him.

As far as Prov. 8
In Biblical Interp. you will see that Proverbs contain general truths and not always absolute truths. When we look at another Scripture regarding seeking...
Romans 3..."There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

So when looking at the verse in Proverbs comparing it to other Scripture passages, we would need to say that when the redeemed (since no one seeks God, unless redeemed..that is what Romans 3 is saying in the context of the chapter/book) seek God they will find Him.

I don't agree with everything I have heard regarding TULIP, but I know that we are radically/totally/infinitely depraved of God. And unless we respond to his effectual calling, there is no way we even look for Him, b/c we are depraved

In HIm
Thom

Faith comes by the Word of God. That's it...His Word. Which shows that He has to take the intiative toward us before we can believe or obtain faith in Him. Since we are fully depraved He needs to take initiative. We cannot "might" our will into believing in God, and this is what I mean by depravity. I am NOT taking away the tension of man's free-will in salvation (I say tension, b/c we cannot do anything to gain salvation, it is only good pleasure of God we are saved, but there we are called to respond in faith...to deny that is to lose the Word of God and replace it with the word of man), but God needs to work in us before any kind of response is possible. To deny that fact (of our depravity and our need for His Word) is to reject the revealed Truths of God in His Word.

In Christ
Thom

Provost wrote:
To deny that fact (of our depravity and our need for His Word) is to reject the revealed Truths of God in His Word.

4 thoughts and I am done

1. The Law was to show us our depravity. The law told us we cannot do it.

2. Jesus was God. God the infinite came down to restore what we could not restore. The Cross is not there to show us how much God loves us. The cross cries out "God had to die, that's how depraved you are!"

3. You said to ignore Biblical commentary. I would say that reveals extreme amounts of pride. You are telling us that you refuse to listen to men who are filled with the Holy Spirit. We are a body, cut out the voices of men of faith is to tell Christ that you do not need the body of believers.

4. Get into a book on Biblical Interp. or take a class It should help in teaching you how to take your presuppositions out of the text and let the Holy Spirit reveal the revelation that is etched in stone.

We all as brothers need to earnestly seek after the face of God. He will complete the work that He began in you. He has saved you and pulled you from the pits of Hell. I pray that He will continue to work in you. Thanx be to God that He has given you treasure to carry in your jar of clay.

Forever in His embrace
Thom

by Ormly on 2007/8/10 15:45:14

That would be good advise for you take son, not me. Been there, seen the slant towards to "off Ramp" of the highway home. I have what I need from the indwelling of Christ and the Pentecoatal experience. Now I write my own commentary.

Everyone should watch [url=http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=be2ce28ef79febe80db1]this short video[/url] and see if "the indwelling of Christ and the Pentecoatal experience" creates the privelege for people to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

(Not that I am personally dismissive towards post-conversion experiences of the Holy Spirit, but there's a reason why God, in his love and grace, has chosen to bless the Body of Christ with those that genuinely hold the office of Teacher so that doctrine can be correctly discerned and explained for our Joy and His Glory so that the Kingdom may advance, amen.)

"God cannot die. Ergo, Jesus was a totally perfect human being hanging on that tree, which is all He had to be. While not doing away with the law, Jesus restored mankind to the way of the cross whereby, upon our new birth in Him, we might attain son-ship, heir-ship and throne-ship in the Father as purposed by God from the beginning of His existence." - Ormly

So Jesus was not God? Not Deity? I weep for you. That is the gospel that saves sinful/fallen/depraved/infinitely seperated man. The incarnation of God into the likeness of man is glorious mystery that only God could reveal to man. I'm sorry...
In Christ,
Thom

Why do you mock me (continually calling me ignorant) and judge my character ( I actually have been mourning since we talked yesterday. I got together with a friend last night and we prayed for you)? Was Jesus God? Because I cannot discuss anything further until we establish who Christ Jesus was. We cannot move further into either of our studies until we establish that we both believe Jesus was God. If you do not believe Jesus was God we do not worship the same God. So was Jesus God?
In Him
Thom

p.s. When you read Romans you will see that every man that has ever been justified has been justified only by the cross of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Remember the mystery was revealed to Paul. In the eyes of God the redemption in Christ was already established before the foundation of the World. Just as when you read Psalm 2 Christ is already seated victoriously on Mt. Zion although we do not see it yet.

Was He God?

Your ignorance is showing. That, in itself is not a crime. It, being willful, is

Brother why again do you stoop to personal attacks upon those who differ with you?

You are speaking borderline heresy(Jesus was only a perfect man) which is Arianism, and is what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Christ must be God and man. The only One who could quench the wrath of the broken Law was God Himself-
Rom 8:3 For [b]what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/b]
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If indeed you are saying that Christ was only a perfect man who provides us an example to be followed, but who does not pay the ransom for His peoples' sins, and redemption, you might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church and earn your way to Heaven, for if Christ has not justified a people to assure them of Heaven, then we are simply given a clean slate that we must in our own effort keep clean.

I am glad to see that your surgery went well, as I did pray for you.

Ormly wrote:
God cannot die. Ergo, Jesus was a totally perfect human being hanging on that tree

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death, spirit from body - [b]Eccl 12:7[/b] [color=990000]then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.[/color]
[b]James 2:26[/b] [color=990000]as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/color]

Spiritual death, spirit from God - [b]Isa 59:1-2[/b] [color=990000]But your iniquities have [b]separated you between and your God[/b], and your sins have [b]hid his face from you[/b], that he will not hear.[/color]

Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross while being 100% God/man.
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.
This is a mystery, for how can the trinity be divided; but we must know this fact as true

Jesus died physically (His fleash was separated from His Spirit) when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luk 23:46, John 19:30.

Ormly,

how would you handle Phillipians 2:5-11 in light of your apparent position on Jesus as God prior to the Cross?

Ormly wrote:

whyme wrote:
Ormly,

how would you handle Phillipians 2:5-11 in light of your apparent position on Jesus as God prior to the Cross?

I believe it is in agreement with my position. This passage is partly responsible for my position. Note the term Christ Jesus and not Jesus Christ. This speaks of not only of what was in Jesus but what is now available to us because of His obedience as a man who respresents mankind who respond and are chosen.

It would seem to me that the passages from Phillipian say that God took the image of man and became a servant ( prior to the Cross ) and therefore, he was God and man during his servanthood ministry while on earth and prior to his obedient work on the cross. Maybe I'm not understanding your point or position on Jesus's Godhood while on earth.

"No. He was 100% obedient unto death. God does not require obedience from Himself. He is obedience. He does from Man. Jesus was that Man in whom all righteous was perfected.... by His obedience!"

Jesus was God before the cross and
Acts 20:27-28 " Paul's Farewell to Ephesus
" For I have not shunned to decalre unto you all the counsel of GOD." v28 "take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, over the which the HOLY GHOST hath made you overseers to feed the Church of GOD, which HE hath purchased with HIS own blood."
Who's blood is Paul talking about in verse 28?
Who shed his blood for use on the cross?
This proves Jesus's diety on the cross.

Ormly wrote:

What do you believe you possess when claiming to be indwelt by His Life? Aside from His mission to restore mankind, is His Life to be any different in you as an individual.

Ormly, like Paul, I would like to say that it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. At the least that is what I'm praying for God to make a reality in my life and truly pray that he not delay. But, that doesn't answer my question.

If what you're saying is that God has allowed that we can draw nearer to Him and be conformed to His Son's image in this life then I would agree with you that that is His ultimate purpose and goal for us to enter into His presence in heaven. I don't think it is attainable in this life as Scripture teaches that sanctification is the process but glorification is the end point.

"was he God" --provost

"In reality He was. In actuality He wasn't, until after the Cross.

You'll have to fathom that out in your studies. Its all there." ormly
explain please, in light of
Acts 20:27-28 " Paul's Farewell to Ephesus
" For I have not shunned to decalre unto you all the counsel of GOD." v28 "take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, over the which the HOLY GHOST hath made you overseers to feed the Church of GOD, which HE hath purchased with HIS own blood."

Ormly wrote:

Logic wrote:
Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross while being 100% God/man.

No. He was 100% obedient unto death. God does not require obedience from Himself. He is obedience. He does from Man. Jesus was that Man in whom all righteous was perfected.... by His obedience!

Why else did they take up stones, in the next verse, that they might throw them on Him?

Ormly wrote:

Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

How do arrive at that from what He cried out? What I hear is perfect man, the only begotten Human being of God, crying out after completing all that the Father gave Him to accomplish. Human I declare, not the Christ of Glory.

Therefore, He died spiritualy, but regained it back by the time He said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit"
The proof that He gained spiritual life back is that He now called God "Father" in Luk 23:46 as before He called Him God.

Ormly wrote:

He was separated from God which is spiritual death.

No spiritual death here.

Ormly wrote:
To prove it Jesus arose from the grave under His own power which is a result of equality with the Father.

Jesus must have died spiritualy, because that is the wage of sin(Rom 6:23).

Jesus must have died spiritualy, because that is the wage of sin(Rom 6:23).

What's your reasoning here?

The wages of our sin is also suffering in hell for all of eternity, something which Christ didn't do.

Nile

Nile wrote:

Jesus must have died spiritualy, because that is the wage of sin(Rom 6:23).

What's your reasoning here?

As I shown before in [b]Isa 59:1-2[/b], Sin separates man from God, and that is what spiritual death is.

Nile wrote:
The wages of our sin is also suffering in hell for all of eternity, something which Christ didn't do.

The penalty of sin is (spiritual)death, the penalty of sin is not "to suffer an eternal punishment".

The opposit of spiritual death is Eternal Life:

The only reason that the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die physicaly without Eternal Life, they die physicaly in spiritual death.
If Eternal Life after physical death is in the presence with God, then to die physicaly without Eternal Life is eternal punishment.

If one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is nashing of teeth.

I see, thanks for sharing your reasoning on that Logic.

The penalty of sin is (spiritual)death, the penalty of sin is not "to suffer an eternal punishment".

I don't quite follow you here though. I kind of see what you're saying, but not really.

I have always seen it like this: We broke God's law, therefore we deserve to be punished: the just punishment is eternal damnation. Those who trust in Christ are forgiven - they do not have to pay their punishment.

But that doesn't sound like what you're saying. Or am I confused?

Also, do you know of any scriptures that say Christ died spiritually?

Lastly, I'm not sure Isa 59:1-2 is exhaustive on the effects, results, and consequences of sin.

Nile

These are good verse. thanks