Tattoos…are they a stumbling block?

Tattoos…are they a stumbling block?

Do you automatically think certain things when you see a man or woman with a tattoo?
How about several tattoos?

I really don’t want this to turn into a “should or shouldn’t” a Christian get them Thread.

What I’m wondering is about Christians that do have them. Are these Christians a stumbling block for others…saved or unsaved?

I know some folks that received tattoos before their conversion and would not have gotten them, but now live with the fact.

Some say their tattoos have opened up witnessing opportunities.

I’m not talking about obviously vulgar tattoos that are even offensive to none Christians. I’m talking about your average art work.

Should a born again Christian cover them up in order to not be a stumbling block even if this means wearing long pants and long sleeves in the summer?

Of course every Christian should take this to God and follow their personal convictions, but I would like to hear some of your thoughts and experiences about this issue.

Grace and Peace

It has so much to do with the tattoo and the person.

I have a friend who always had a fascination with Japan. He looked half-Japanese, read history about Japan, watched foreign films, and even learned a decent amount of the language. He happened to be a tattoo artist as well, so he did his own artwork on his chest and shoulder of Japanese koi fish and sparrows. As far as tattoos go it was beautiful. He figured no one could see it there and it meant a lot to him at the time.

Eventually he determined to be a missionary to Japan and moved there for six months. He discovered that very few houses have showers, so most people use community bath houses.

He also discovered that in Japan it is extremely unacceptable for any respectable person to have tattoos, which are associated almost exclusively with Yakuza (Japanese organized crime). Because he looks Japanese and the artwork was Japanese, no one believe that he was just some American with tattoos.

He said it closed many doors and established a bad reputation in the community before he could speak with many of the people. Japan is known for being, in many way, a "closed" country and his tattoos closed the doors even more.

Daily prayer and the leading of the Spirit is a better platform for witnessing than any tattoo.

On the up side, he married a Japanese woman and they intend to move back someday as missionaries.

With love and affection,

I have a few & have been convicted to cover them;
I dont understand guys like Head & Derek webb that blaze them even without a shirt on etc.. like they are still proud of them,
(while Lev. tells us not to have them)

I view tattoos as scars of sinful living, some scars are deeper than others & I am glad that these are only physical scars.

They do bring up witness encounters to those that knew me before coming to Christ, Only because now I go out of my way to cover them,

I also used to do them & for the most part, it is a wicked subculture; Like i said before some sin is more visable than others

Good thread, I look forward to more on the issue

I have talked on this subject a number of times, whether it was on here or on another site, so I don't really want to "into it."

I will say from personal experience though, that I like tattoos. I haven't regretted them, either. I am 32 and I got my first tattoo when I was 19 (I believe), and got my 8th tattoo this past June. They are all symbolic of my faith/walk with Christ and I personally really like them. Have I been able to witness with them? Yes, sometimes. But that isn't my sole intent for getting them. My newest one is on the back of my leg and it is in big hebrew writing that says Worship Yahweh. Quite a number of people in the marketplace have come up to me and asked me about it and I have been able to share what it means, and with some people I have been able to share what I believe.

Can tattoos be a stumbling block. I suppose they could. But I wonder if we can get a little legalistic when it comes to stuff like that. I don't know. I mean anybody can make anything a stumbling block. In going along with what Krispy was saying - Clothes, makeup, music, movies, hair, magazines, internet, cars, money, smoking, chewing, alcohol, artwork, sculptors... and on and on. Obviously, there are the obvious stumbling blocks, but how far is too far beyond what God intended?

I don't know. This is one of those debatable answers that can swing both ways, I think.

KrispyKrittr wrote:

I remember seeing this healing evangelist who was overly obese, I mean this guy was shaped like a rectangular box. My first thought was this guy can't be in touch with God, I can't imagine he has ever fasted in his life. Very little healings if any took place, the ole KFC buckets were handed out though. So yeah, certain things can be a stumbling block.

A lot of people wouldnt need healings if they would just keep their hands out of the KFC buckets a little more often!

Do you want fries with that?

Krispy

Or soda, and ice cream sandwhichs.... I gotta lay off those... lol

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Yea, well Leviticus also tells us not to trim the sides of our beards too... at least we know Elvis did his best to follow the Levitical Law, huh? lol
Krispy

LOL

Not puting the whole issue on Lev.; but it is Cutting the flesh for the purpose of art,
how is that not sinful???

(Personally... I just don't want to glory in them anymore,)

I would like to say that if you have a tattoo, want a tattoo, or about to get one for the sole purpose of witnessing, I would reconsider your motives.

That is one of the things that the Lord has challenged me on, because that was MY sole reason originally for getting my first tattoo (plus I just really wanted one).

I remember when people had the argument, "Isn't it going to be actually harder to witness to people in the church, or to those who don't have tattoos and are conservative?" I said, "While it shouldn't be, I suppose it could be, but wouldn't it be just as hard for me to be in a $500 suit trying to witness to a bunch of people with peircings and tattoos?" I've realized now, though, that while there is a tinge of very small truth to this, we (me) are relying upon our appearances to save the lost and dying. Why are we (I) doing that? Jesus Christ was in a particular culture, but I don't know that he ever attempted to change his appearance for the "in" crowd, or the "out" crowd. He was who He was and he didn't need to upgrade or downgrade His appearance for anybody.

Can we get a tattoo, or a fish car emblem, or t-shirt to witness to others... sure... if you want to solely rely on your own strength, instead of letting God move and work through you just the way you are without all of that.

For His Glory,

Ben

BenBrockway wrote:

Can we get a tattoo, or a fish car emblem, or t-shirt to witness to others... sure... if you want to solely rely on your own strength, instead of letting God move and work through you just the way you are without all of that.

Ben

I still like my tattoos, though... lol

Unless I am mistaken, the Levitical law refers to tattoos and markings made with the intent of devotion towards and communication with the dead.

Think that is ancient? I know gangsters who still do it. They have tats that say "so-and-so 1985-2004" and they tell people that their dead homie can see it and is happy about their memorial to him.

But, the real issue is "is it a stumbling block".

I can speak for myself, at least. If a brother says, "I got a tattoo three years ago", I think nothing of it. If a brother says "I got one this past month", I think, "he doesn't know how to spend his money." Most tattoos will pay for an Indian missionary to go out for three months to a year. ($30 a month)

A $300 tattoo is the price of 10,000 gospel tracts at Americasprinter.com

I hope that tattoo helps you witness to 10,000 people. :-o

I say this with love and affection. I have come short in much as well, but we must be faithful with these few things first.

I am also trying to live this, ordering water instead of cokes, smaller meals, etc. to help move cash to the most efficient uses.

theopenlife wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, the Levitical law refers to tattoos and markings made with the intent of devotion towards and communication with the dead.

This, I have heard from many a scholar, as well.

BenBrockway wrote:

theopenlife wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, the Levitical law refers to tattoos and markings made with the intent of devotion towards and communication with the dead.

This, I have heard from many a scholar, as well.

Oh, plus it being done to false gods, too.

LittleGift wrote:
"let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind", as with Paul's comment on eating meat offered to idols.
Blessings
Jeannette

My dear brothers, I thought this was a clear cut issue; I didn’t know people considered getting Tattoos for the sake of witnessing & after regeneration etc… out of the ones I have done I never came across anyone that said such, (most were based on pride, boasting of self image, vanity, Catholic externalism etc.)
so I can't comment on that area, but something about this thread has deeply saddened me, so I will say no more...
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the issue, & Onward with the preaching of the gospel

The reason for starting this thread

For me getting a tattoo is not an option. Having said that I must admit to having a tattoo(s), and it is one of many things I would not repeat if the choice was to be offered again. I feel much like Michael (theopenlife) about the issue. In 2006 I really started to take stewardship to a new level. I personally feel the money could be spent in more productive outreach methods.

But having a tattoo(s) is what concerns me, not whether I or you should get one. I just want input about how you react to seeing tattoos on people.

I have one on my bicep that I am extremely conscious about. It is covered by a short sleeve shirt, but only one with longer sleeves and then just barely. I have known people for years and have become friends with them, but the look on their face when they find out I have a tattoo(s) is really something to behold.

It saddens me to be judged in this way. I know I’m forgiven for my past and I’m the one that must live with these scares on my body, but it has changed how the world and Christians look at me. I go out of my way to hide it, but I still pay a price for the lifestyle I lived before accepting Christ.

dear Saints

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

This is an interesting topic for me, i have a tattoo and long hair! :-P The tattoo is not visible often since it is on my chest but when people ask about it, it can become a point for opening the door to speaking about God if they wish to pursue the issue. as i understand what Paul was talking about concerning long hair, it's not so much length but more of grooming. those of us with wives know and have heard this often "i need to get my hair done" which is what the word Paul uses for long hair implies. my hair is longer than my wife's hair but doesn't need as much maintainance. anyhow for me the issue of my hair is quite an interesting one. our Lord told me to grow it out and then later to cut it to honour my parent's request. He had me grow it again and i have come to an understanding of why. People often assume the wrong thing when they see me, i can't tell you how many times i have been asked where to get weed or if i'm selling crack...or even if i'm from jamaica. Now the thing of it is this, if we as men will not repent of such foolish assumptions as it pertains to small things such as hair, tattoos and such, it is less likely that we will do right when it comes to the more weighty matters. it is a reminder of the constant warfare i am in concerning this, not only with my brethren around me, but i must check myself and keep from making such assumptions also. for me to cut my hair and shave my beard would be cop out, an endsorsement of this very thing which God has pitted Himself against and reminds me of this each day when i look in the mirror. to conform to this standard is to in effect lay down my arms and surrender and i can't do that. i have been asked if i felt convicted about my hair and i don't, my conviction is to fight on. for me my hair is not simply an ornament nor is my beard simply what God Adorned my face with but there is something more going on there which people will not have a chance of seeing because of assumptions. We all suffer from this thing to some degree or other whether it is assuming something based on someone's race, height, weight etc.May God open our eyes to see Him in one another.AMEN.

i think also to stumble is to cause to sin. i don't think that one can blame someone else for his or her actions in response to something but we all ought to respond in a Godly manner to whatever is thrown at us.

my 2 cents

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.

the thing that gets me is, we are the temple of the Holy spirit,

we are bought with a price, ...when did you go and paint someone else's house?

and i wonder what would happened to someone who would have tried to re-paint the holy of holies in the old covenant

i think we sometimes have such a "low" view of God, i have several tattoos, and me for myself is convinced they are wrong, that is MY conviction, and my advice dont get one.

when did you go and paint someone else's house?

This is wonderful, brother. You've just conveyed a mature understanding of a difficult topic at a level a child can grasp. Reminds me of a Zac Poonen illustration. Keep doing whatever it is you're doing, Christian, in your walk with Jesus. Your steady advancement in the knowledge of the things of God is pretty amazing, if you ask me. This post was dynamite.

Christian, do you go out of your way to cover your tattoos due to the fact they may be stumbling blocks to others?

Your post was dead on...about whether to get one or not.

But how do you deal with the ones you have? Do you feel the need to have them covered at all times?

i chose not to dress in a way that show my tattoos, because i dont want my tattoos to be a "stumbling block".

Mine take up a very large portion of my body, so on hot days it can be a bit "hard", but this is my conviction. I believe God sees them through the blood, but also the design of my tattoos and what they portray is grieving to me and probably to God also.

I do not cover them at my house and so on, but i dont want unbelievers to be turned away because how i look, i apply this also with how i dress,i dont want to be an "offense" to anyone in anything except maybe my belief in Christ and my message to them about him.

IRONMAN wrote:

i think also to stumble is to cause to sin. i don't think that one can blame someone else for his or her actions in response to something but we all ought to respond in a Godly manner to whatever is thrown at us.

my 2 cents

Amen. I agree with this statement, [b]"i think also [u]to stumble is to cause to sin[/u]." [/b]

I don't know if I agree wih the statement that tattoos can CAUSE someone to stumble (i.e. to sin).

Many people have posted some great things on the topic of tattoos, though. If God convicts you, it is a powerful thing to obey Him. Praise God for all of you that have felt conviction and have taken the steps neccesary.

The cold truth is this: tattoos are seen as sleazy and they automatically depict a person's character as questionable. People with visible tattoos have a much less chance of getting a call back after a job interview than those without tattoos. I know that as an employer in the conservative funeral industry, I probably would [i]not[/i] hire someone with a visible tattoo. Grieving families do not want to see a director with tattoos on his arm or hands, or a female director with a butterfly on her ankle. We can be spiritual all we want in this forum and say that God sees the heart, but we forget that man looks on the outside, and it is man we must provide salt and light to. Why in the world would a mature believer want to deface his or her body with a token of a sub-cultural expression such as a tattoo? Ornamenting the outside of the cup is usually a prime indication of an insufficiency or lack of confidence on the inner.

I don't know why we can't get past the color of skin or let alone how we decorate our skin and just love the way that Jesus loved.

They talked alot of this talk at the Woodstock Festival circa 1969. The reason we can't get past [i]Christians[/i] doing these things is because we are to be examples of godliness and purity to a damned and dying world. We know the church is in trouble when we can get on with something like tattoos and defend them while much of the unsaved world still thinks they're filthy and immoral.

Fight on Brother!!!

I think your assertiveness here may be a bit misplaced if you are directing this toward anything other than fighting the good fight of faith. We should be wary of fashioning ourselves according to the former lusts in our ignorance, of having confidence in the flesh, of conforming to worldy molds. The Spirit sets us free from these whims, and transforms us into the image of godliness and upright integrity. It's not an issue of personal identity statements, which is often what long hair and tattoos represent. Our identities are now hid in Christ and our old men are slain on the cross. A process of sanctification has begun, and some are at diffent stages than others. But one thing is certain: if you have experienced the new birth, the metamorphosis has begun and you should be advancing to a greater and greater Christlikeness.

As our inner spirits are renewed daily and our souls purified by obeying the truth through the Spirit, things on the ouside begin to change as well. As our dear brother Christian pointed out, the urge to match the outward with the inward eventually manifests...and you suddenly feel compelled to "cover up" that which can stumble or broadcast a questionable signal.

I do not have a problem with tattoo's.

You may not, but others do, and this very fact should cause you to reconsider your mindset. Paul said he wouldn't eat meat if he knew it offended the conscience of another believer. Tattoos offend many brothers and sisters, nay, especially [i]those that are without[/i] and it is God's will that mockers be silenced by our good and godly report.

Brother Paul

Why can't Christians who say they've got this great love of God living in them, why can't they actually love others as Christ loves others, in spite of the color of a person's skin or how someone decorates their skin?

I think you're missing the point. You keep speaking of love, and if you really wanted to show the selfless love of Christ, you wouldn't be driven to get another tattoo, knowing how much tattos offend other believers and how stigmatized they already are in our society, especially by heathen employers and the like. Why knowingly brand yourself a rebel in their eyes? Why bring what godless men's consciences reject as distasteful and flaunt it under God and abuse your liberty in Christ? Such an act is actually [i]selfish[/i] and not loving at all towards others with contrary convictions. Your insistance upon getting a tattoo despite stumbling the conviction of others can be seen as [i]unloving,[/i] and it comes off, actually, as a self-driven agenda.

I see Christlikeness as walking in love, wisdom and honesty

You should then be honest with yourself and use wisdom and see that genuine love is looking to the care and benefit and feelings of others. Why knowingly stumble and confuse younger believers at the cost of a personal appearance agenda?

Brother Paul

(edit) I realize I'm not doing a very good job at befriending you. I'm actually a really nice guy! It's just that I read your post...and noticed perhaps the urge to indulge in a spirit of worldy individualism beneath the banner of Christ. I think such a notion warrants a direct confrontation from a conservative brother. I hope you're not getting too upset. I am not judging you, nor anyone with a tattoo, but for a mature believer (which I am presuming you are) to pubically boast in this cultural stigma, and then to counsel others to "fight on" and follow suit...well, it was all too much.

Intens4Him wrote:
Hmmhmm,

there is nothing that we do that can surprise Him... so why hide them?

the main reason is because i believe they are a grief to God, If God wanted me to have tattoos i would have had them from birth. The thing is we have a to low view of God today, even many believers, we think God is like us. He is not.

if you are a genuine born again christian you do not own your own body, your mind is not your own, thay are Christ.

You should not paint what you feel like on yourself, you should not fill your mind with garbage that does not belong in the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Don't be ashamed of anything from your past

brother , i think i always will be, i am so ashamed over my sins. over how i lived my life. How much i wasted, i could have used my life worshiping the eternal living God...instead i used it to sin... i am ashamed.

can God use my tattoos? i think he can, but i believe he will use me, and the new person he created to show people the power of his transforming miracle "the new birth".

Christian

hmmhmm wrote:
If God wanted me to have tattoos i would have had them from birth. The thing is we have a to low view of God today, even many believers, we think God is like us. He is not.

Christian

Hello my dear brother in the Lord! Greetings to you, Christian.

I think your statement above can be a little sketchy for this reason: If God wanted me to have a car, he would have given me one at birth. If God wanted me to wear these particular clothes or have this particular tie, he would have given it to me at birth. If God wanted me to be fat, He would have made me fat at birth. If God wanted me to have muscles, He would have given them to me at birth - therefore I shouldn't be working out. If God wanted me to have a particular haircut, whether long, short, spiky, messy, a different color than natural - He would have given the exact cut that He wanted on me at birth. on and on it can go. Many things, and many decisions can change from birth.

Just a thought my dear brother! Be blessed!

In light of some of the comments I've seen posted so far, I would like to address the topic with a particular Scripture:

Ok... um, well, the Scripture would have been waaaaay to long to post on here, so I would ask that you read Romans Chapter 2 through Romans Chapter 9! I will go ahead and post some "highlighted" Scripture, but really all of the Scripture is relevant. -

3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

11[u]For there is no partiality with God.[/u]

12[u]For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14[b]For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,[/b][/u]

15[b][u]in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,[/u][/b]

16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

The Jew Is Condemned by the Law
17But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,

19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,

21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?

22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?

24For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

25[b][u]For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/b][/u]

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
"THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)

6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Justification by Faith
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

30[b][u]since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.[/u][/b]

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Ok, so I started writing a bunch of the Scripture down and realized that I could keep going and going...

Also, I would have ended up underlining and boldening the entirity of the Scriptures I was posting, so that is why I basically stopped. So, please don't dismiss the rest of the non-underlinded and non-boldend Scripture.

Here is the question I will pose to you all through what this Scripture says: Are not most of you circumcised? Is this not an alteration of our body as God created us? Is this not a cutting of the skin? Is this not a permanent marking on the body? Was it a sin to have it done to us? Are our parents going to be held accountable and be judged for their part in causing us to sin? Are we causing the Jew, or the other who is uncircumcised to stumble by having this alteration of our skin. Are most of us not a Gentile? Does it not say in Scripture that we don't need to be circumcised? So, then I would ask of you, if you are circumcised, are you not going against the very Scripture of God (as someone would say a tattoo would be doing), or does this Scripture not vindicate those who have been circumcised, and those who haven't been?

My dear bretheren and sisteren(lol), must we be so hasty in our thoughts on what God thinks and easily forget these such Scriptures?

I believe tattoos in open view is a stumbling block to many.
(So my personal conviction is to cover them if you can)
& Yes sometimes they will lead into a witness encounter, & could be an excellent time for testimony etc.. Such has been in my case. But if seen, before hand we can only imagine the snap judgment that the world makes, in which we will not have any a chance to even explain ourselves. My brief experience as a tattoo artist has lead me into researching a little history of the practice. & It seems to have always been a pagan practice, so when did it become OK for Christians to partake-in,

Picture this.....A Christian in a tattoo parlor chair, while the machine continually thumps an ink saturated needle into freshly opened flesh,,, is this a bigger stumbling block for a passing friend that maybe in the valley of decision???

Are we to sit down in the taverns & bars and have our Christian designed cup, containing something that looks as if were beer, for the sake of reaching sinners. I know this is a bit farfetched but I’m just trying to illuminate a bit of my thinking on the subject.

Another thing that I have noticed is that alot of the emerging church movement in my area embraces tattoos and other so-called gray areas of individual expression.
(Are we to blend with these folk too??)

I pleaded with my dear brother before his first and only tattoo of a cross design on his upper arm. He reluctantly said to me a few days later ,“ I guess it would have been more Christ like, to have not done this”

Please don’t hammer me on this one, I am somewhat young in Christ, not very well spoken, & don’t have the scriptural knowledge/support on this issue as I should. But this is an area that I have been immersed in and feel passionately about,. I have been acquainted with the the dark & wicked side of given & receiving tattoos. In my experience haven’t known anything good or light hearted about it. My hope is that others may reconsider their motives, desires, and relationship with Christ, & hopefully refrain from doing such a thing and stay set apart from the world.

Now to a word from our sponsors... this Temple of the Holy Spirit is sponsored by Jimbo's Tattoo and Piercing Palace, where drunks get discounts on Saturday nights.

My dear brother, thank you for your input. Hopefully no one on this forum will hammer you. While I do see your point:

It seems to have always been a pagan practice, so when did it become OK for Christians to partake-in

In looking back on the history of Christmas, it was a pagan practice. The Harvest party, was birthed from the pagan practice, many hymns were birthed from pagan lyrics.

Now, I know what some of you are thinking and I am not saying that anything goes. For example. Porn is a pagan idea, and there is no way we can justify making Christian porn.

Things can be made good from bad, though. A porn actress can become born again. Something good came from something bad.

We can debate these things till we're blue in the face, but the answer is really only this, "What is YOUR conviction between you and the Lord."

Just like us always debating over alcohol. I don't drink really. I've had some, but I just don't like alcohol a whole lot. HOWEVER, Scripture clearly shows that Jesus drank, the disciples drank, the majority of people drank at their festivals, weddings, and dinners. So, who am I to judge if someone feels it is wrong for them personally to drink? And who am I to judge as a non-drinker that someone who does drink. Nowhere in Scripture does it say not to drink. It says not to get drunk, but it doesn't say that we cannot drink.

Remember: Everything is permissable, but it may not be beneficial.

*edited*

iansmith wrote:
Now to a word from our sponsors... this Temple of the Holy Spirit is sponsored by Jimbo's Tattoo and Piercing Palace, where drunks get discounts on Saturday nights.

I hope, dear brother, that you read this Scripture in context! :-(

jimdied2sin wrote:
This thread is an example of religion at its finest...

I COMPELTELY agree!

I hope, dear brother, that you read this Scripture in context!

Frankly speaking, some of the brothers here who justify their tattoos will turn around and attack someone else for listening to rock music or reading harry potter. To me, tattoos are clearly satanic in inspiration, more clearly than reading a fantasy novel. But each person has light shed on them in different ways.

I live in Seattle, tattoo parlors are as common as coffee houses (which Seattle has in abundance).

Now tattoo culture -if I may call it that, although it lacks any refinement, is synonymous with the work of the Devil, capital D, now follow my logic for a moment.

There are several types of people who get tattoos in Seattle. Drunk college types, drug users, gang members, new age religionists, cultists, people with severe mental problems who do the full on body modification/disfigurement... all stemming from an enslavement -slavery to Satan.

Whether in the context it means slavery to drink or slavery to cult, or slavery to gang, we know that in reality it is slavery to the dark one.

What does light have to do with darkness?!

Lot's of people get tattoos and piercing and body modifications, but the vast majority of these people, although hey don't know it, aren't doing it to 'express themselves' they're doing it to express their ownership.

Now some of you will justify and say 'well if I have a Christian tattoo it shows I'm owned by God.' Well the bible tells you a million ways that you can show you're owned by God without polluting or disgracing your body!

When Paul boasts about his scars, he's not boasting about a self inflicted one that says 'I love Jesus' across his chest.

Tattoo parlors are modern day temples of Baal, and tattoo artists are their priests... do not submit your body to them!

Ian... Say, "Hi" to my uncle who owns Gilbert Construction out there, will ya? lol

I was born in Seattle and raised on Whidbey Island for 15 years of my life. It was WA. that got me hooked on photography! :-D

iansmith wrote:

When Paul boasts about his scars, he's not boasting about a self inflicted one that says 'I love Jesus' across his chest.

Are you sure about that? lol

I think I read somewhere in Scripture that Paul had an [i]I LOVE MOM[/i] tattoo on his bicep.

iansmith wrote:

Now some of you will justify and say 'well if I have a Christian tattoo it shows I'm owned by God.' Well the bible tells you a million ways that you can show you're owned by God without polluting or disgracing your body!

Well, I have several Christian t-shirts, a Christian bumper sticker, several Christian crosses hanging on the wall with Scripture, I eat Scripture candy, and testamints, have a Jabez engraved stone, and even own some Christian My Little Ponies, so that should more than make up for my Christian tattoos...

jimdied2sin wrote:
Ian, I understand where you are coming from now on this one. Is it just the tattoo culture that you are arguing is evil, or the actual act of having ink on your skin? I can see how there is a culture of evil associated with it, though that is true of professional sports too for example. (Fans getting drunk, rivalry, boasting, pride of life, whorish cheerleaders, etc...)

In Christ - Jim

And which is true with the alcohol culture... I can see evil associated with it, but it isn't wrong to drink...

Same thing with the music culture...

I don't claim to know how everything works... and it may just be a strong dislike of needles speaking. But I do believe there is something deeply wrong about marking your body perminently. You don't hear abut any of the puritans or early church fathers doing it... and don't think its because the technology was not available.

Almost whenever a tribe or people group came to Christ the traditions of tattooing died out as a result, because they were so tied in with worshipping false Gods. It's only in America in the last 50 years that it has become widely accepted, and moreso in the last ten. There's something deceptive behind it, a return to satanic power.

As for sports, I agree with CS Lewis and Paul Washer on this one. CS Lewis thanks God that he wasn't gifted with talent for sports -because he could see more evil arising from it than good... likewise Paul Washer mirrored this sentiment when he prayed that his children would not be good at sports. Sports is an idol for many people, for many 'christians.' One of the greatest testimonies in history is about men who GAVE UP sports, that should give us something to work with. Ie. Leonard Ravenhill's father, the Cambridge Seven, Chariots of Fire.

BenBrockway wrote:

iansmith wrote:

Now some of you will justify and say 'well if I have a Christian tattoo it shows I'm owned by God.' Well the bible tells you a million ways that you can show you're owned by God without polluting or disgracing your body!

Well, I have several Christian t-shirts, a Christian bumper sticker, several Christian crosses hanging on the wall with Scripture, I eat Scripture candy, and testamints, have a Jabez engraved stone, and even own some Christian My Little Ponies, so that should more than make up for my Christian tattoos...

This was sarcasm, of course... well, except for the Christian My Little Ponies... lol... not really, but I do have some t-shirts that have some neat art and sayings that relate to my walk with Christ. Oh, and I do have some crosses hanging on the wall, and a few tattoos that "share," if you will, my beliefs.

Ughhh Jesus Junk...

iansmith wrote:
Ughhh Jesus Junk...

Haha... my point exactly

I was actually reading through some of the old LDM magazines the other day and saw Keith's article on 'What's wrong with the Gospel: the added parts.' And there was a picture of a guy at the gates of heaven with his car and a voice saying 'your car can come in, but you'll have to go down bellow.'

We talk about tattoos that express our faith... we don't need to 'express' anything, we need to be a mirror that reflects Jesus! We need to bear fruit!

I don't even think this is a 'sacrificial meat' issue, meat serves a function... we NEED to eat. But we don't NEED to 'express' ourselves, or draw on our bodies... its frivilous, spurious materialism. We've made our bodies objects of materialism... we treat them like WE own them and not God.

Let me ask you, did you go to God and ask him what tattoo he wanted you to have on [i]the body that he owns[/i]? I think that would stop many people in their tracks. We've made our bodies just another created idol to color on and draw on... It's a temple for Jesus people!

Maybe this will help solve the tattoo debate...!?

Mark 7:14-23
14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

[b][u]20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "[/u][/b]

**Added edit: Could this not be the true intrepretation of "Our Body as the Temple of the Holy Spirit." Would this Scripture in Mark and the Scripture in 1 Cor. 6 not essentially be one in the same if we think about it?

17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

can i ask why you people want to get a tattoo? i have a hard time understand it.

Early church fathers to the rescue:

From the Didache ch 3:1

'My child, flee from every evil thing, and from every likeness of it.' (Roberts)

'My child, flee from every evil and everything [b]that resembleth it[/b].' (Lightfoot)

I'm sure I could search for some verses from the Word to support this, but this popped into my memory.

iansmith wrote:
Early church fathers to the rescue:

From the Didache ch 3:1

'My child, flee from every evil thing, and from every likeness of it.' (Roberts)

'My child, flee from every evil and everything [b]that resembleth it[/b].' (Lightfoot)

I'm sure I could search for some verses from the Word to support this, but this popped into my memory.

I don't know if you read this earlier post of mine, but I thought I would make mention of it again...:

In light of some of the comments I've seen posted so far, I would like to address the topic with a particular Scripture:

Ok... um, well, the Scripture would have been waaaaay to long to post on here, so I would ask that you read Romans Chapter 2 through Romans Chapter 9! I will go ahead and post some "highlighted" Scripture, but really all of the Scripture is relevant. -

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

11For there is no partiality with God.

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

The Jew Is Condemned by the Law
17But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,

19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,

21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?

22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?

24For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
"THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)

6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Justification by Faith
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so I started writing a bunch of the Scripture down and realized that I could keep going and going...

Also, I would have ended up underlining and boldening the entirity of the Scriptures I was posting, so that is why I basically stopped. So, please don't dismiss the rest of the non-underlinded and non-boldend Scripture.

Here is the question I will pose to you all through what this Scripture says: Are not most of you circumcised? Is this not an alteration of our body as God created us? Is this not a cutting of the skin? Is this not a permanent marking on the body? Was it a sin to have it done to us? Are our parents going to be held accountable and be judged for their part in causing us to sin? Are we causing the Jew, or the other who is uncircumcised to stumble by having this alteration of our skin. Are most of us not a Gentile? Does it not say in Scripture that we don't need to be circumcised? So, then I would ask of you, if you are circumcised, are you not going against the very Scripture of God (as someone would say a tattoo would be doing), or does this Scripture not vindicate those who have been circumcised, and those who haven't been?

My dear bretheren and sisteren(lol), must we be so hasty in our thoughts on what God thinks and easily forget these such Scriptures?

where do we draw the line what we can do and can not do to our bodies?

EDIT: Gods bodys..... we are not our own anymore, but really what do you people think about that? my conviction is we do nothing, i dont even think women should wear makeup. But, where can we draw the line and say this you can do, this you can not do

Even Satan could quote scripture in order to tempt Jesus -but you have to think about the context.

Ben, you are pulling things from crazy far out in left field in order to justify your lifestyle and actions when so much of the bible contradicts what you want to do... comparing tattooing with circumcision. Why did they get circumsized? If you ask any sociologist they'd probably say it had more to do with being clean initially -God was concerned with their sanitation (thus the many laws regarding cleanliness in leviticus).

And as for identifying them with God, how often do you pull down people's pants to check which religion they are?!

Tattoos are sinful for so many reasons, its not a one faceted issue. It's taking ownership of your body into your own hands, doing things to it that God never inteded to be done to it... the reason that it's so closely associated with pagan and satanic rites is because it is done with this mindset -you're just justifying doing it, but you don't even realize what mind you're of.

iansmith wrote:

Ben, you are pulling things from crazy far out in left field

Am I? Some of my point in putting up this Scripture is that someone said, "We weren't born with tattoos, so we shouldn't get any..."
I was drawing a point that we weren't born circumcised, but we still alter our flesh to be circumcised.

in order to justify your lifestyle and actions

This is stretching things a bit far. I am not trying to justify anything, especially my lifestyle and actions. What I find interesting though, if you want to put it in the context of justifying a lifestyle, would you not be doing the same thing!! You are justifying your own lifestyle!

Re-read the Scripture again that I posted about circumcision and maybe the Lord will open your eyes to the point and comparison I was trying to draw...

when so much of the bible contradicts what you want to do... comparing tattooing with circumcision.

Tell me, where does the Bible say to not get a tattoo. You said that so much of the Bible does, so I am hoping that you will come up with numerous amounts of Scripture to validate this point!

And as for identifying them with God, how often do you pull down people's pants to check which religion they are?!

I've never had my clothes taken off to see what religion I am either... so why should the tattoo make any difference!? I've not had one person come up to me and pull up my sleeve and say, "What? I'm confused! You said you were a Christian, but you have a tattoo. Wouldn't that make you hellbound?"

Tattoos are sinful for so many reasons, its not a one faceted issue. It's taking ownership of your body into your own hands, doing things to it that God never inteded to be done to it... the reason that it's so closely associated with pagan and satanic rites is because it is done with this mindset [b]-you're just justifying doing it, but you don't even realize what mind you're of.[/b]

So, you Absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, without knowing me, or my walk with Christ, know what mind I'm of????????

{takes a second to bow to the all-knowing one}

:-?

I want you to understand that I am not trying to justify tattoos. I see valid points to both sides of the issue. My point is, is that people say that Scripture supports the idea that tattooing is a sin and other people say that the Bible doesn't say that. We can go on and on with this debate... however:

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
"THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."

-----

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

My point is that it is not our place to judge, or condemn someone for something that is legitimately NOT a saved or unsaved issue. Why must we look at the color or colors of someone's skin? Why must we doubt someone's heart for the Lord over a piercing or a tattoo? Who's place is it, but God's to judge the heart of man?

People are going to do what they want to do... no point in arguing with them.

I don't want anyone to be decieved, this is a black and white issue, even if you want to see it in greys.

When I became a christian I dressed a certain way to attract attention to myself. When I accepted the Lord into my heart, I realized that it was something that grieved the Spirit and caused division with my fellow brothers and sisters, I conformed myself with the church in order to be conformed to Christ.

Let's be honest here, one of the biggest problems in the Emergent church is that the gospel is too 'me-centered' It's all about being the person that we want to be, and having Jesus as an accessory.

What ever happened to being made into the likeness of Christ! The only body modification that Jesus got was some holes in his wrists and feet, scars around his body and a gash in his side.

Am I able to reflect Jesus clearly when there is so much of who I think I am displayed in pictures on my body... Jesus has no part of that!

Now am I implying that people with tattoos can't come to know the Lord... No! But will someone who has genuinely been conformed to the will of God in Jesus continue to cover their body with art... NO! Just as tribesmen in africa and central america got rid of their fetishes and talismans, body art and hair styles that all represented their pagan lifestyles, so we must get rid of any clothing, body modification or accessories that denote a lifestyle that opposes Christ.

How is it that the Gospel is so clear on the mission field in a far away country, but so convoluted in our own churches!

We must stop reducing black and white matters to greys. We must take a stand for not just what the bible says, but what Jesus says today!

When a homosexual comes to the Lord, he doesn't continue in homosexuality, or take on more sexual partners, he renounces his old ways, crucifies them with Christ and buries them -no longer sinning.

You quoted from Romans, how about Romans 7, where we die to our sin and have it crucified!

Tattoos represent sin, taking our lives into our own hands, and they must be repented of and crucified with christ like any other sin.

Thankfully in this day and age we need not wear long sleeves for the rest of our lives as some believers have done in the past to cover up tattoos gotten in their youth... no, we have technology to remove tattoos, and become clean of the thing that has polluted the body and soul.

BenBrockway wrote:
Why must we doubt someone's heart for the Lord over a piercing or a tattoo? Who's place is it, but God's to judge the heart of man?

This is what irritates me the most about the Christian that will fight until their dying day about stuff like tattoos or whether or not drinking is wrong.

Why do you think Scripture talks about gossip being wrong? Must we grumble, complain, gripe, pass judgement, and pass condemnation on your fellow brethren or sistren over rediculous things that are not a salvation issue? Why not leave that between the individual and God? Why must we insist on playing God when it comes to these types of issues?

Remember: GOD JUDGES THE MATTERS OF THE HEART. Should we then to not be concerned about our hearts, or the hearts of others? Should that not be the focal point of the Christian body? Is it not the soul that will eventually inhabit the place of Heaven or hell? Or did I mistake Scripture? Does it actually say that our tattoos will inhabit Heaven or hell?

You pray for revival but refuse to repent... this is why God has abandoned America.

You want to know why people have revival in China and Africa and not here in America... because we've become afraid to tell people they're tolerating Sin, we've become paralyzed to preach against Sin in all of it's forms and manifestations.

You're right, God judges the matters of the heart, but tattoos are a manifestation of the heart! They are an outward manifestation of a sinful and unrepentant heart, and heart that is owned by Satan and not by Jesus.

Go to your prayer closet now and ask Jesus if he would have you get a tattoo... I can tell you that if you are really communicating with Jesus the answer will be No! It will be no for many reasons, because it's a waste of resources, because it's a bad testimony, because of its association with darkness and satan... but we ignore that because we justify ourselves and close our ears to the Holy Spirit's speaking!

You're right, tattoos aren't sin, but only sinners get tattoos.

iansmith wrote:
Let's be honest here, one of the biggest problems in the Emergent church is that the gospel is too 'me-centered' It's all about being the person that we want to be, and having Jesus as an accessory.

I agree

Now am I implying that people with tattoos can't come to know the Lord... No! But will someone who has genuinely been conformed to the will of God in Jesus continue to cover their body with art... NO!

Uh... Yes. Me

We must stop reducing black and white matters to greys. We must take a stand for not just what the bible says, but what Jesus says today!

Uh, Can you please tell me the date and time that Jesus spoke to the world, today, and said, "No tattoos?"

When a homosexual comes to the Lord, he doesn't continue in homosexuality, or take on more sexual partners, he renounces his old ways, crucifies them with Christ and buries them -no longer sinning.

Agreed... for the homosexual lifetsyle is blantantly wrong ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE.

You quoted from Romans, how about Romans 7, where we die to our sin and have it crucified!

I follow you. So tell me in Scripture where it says that tattoos are a sin!!!?

Tattoos represent sin

According to who exactly? You? I don't live by your standards of what sin is and is not. I live by God's standards and his standards applied in Scripture.

Thankfully in this day and age we need not wear long sleeves for the rest of our lives as some believers have done in the past to cover up tattoos gotten in their youth... no, we have technology to remove tattoos, and become clean of the thing that has polluted the body and soul.

You do know that lasers leave a scar, right? So the body would still be "altered from it's original state."

iansmith wrote:
You pray for revival but refuse to repent... this is why God has abandoned America.

Who are you directing this comment at? If it is me, who are you to say that I don't repent?

Do you automatically think certain things when you see a man or woman with a tattoo?How about several tattoos? Are these Christians a stumbling block for others…saved or unsaved?

Yes, I automatically think something about someone with tattoos. Is what I assume about them correct? Most likely not. It is just human nature to do such a thing and I have to catch myself and think...what does God think about this person (i.e. He loves them, wants them to be born again, if they are not)

I have a tattoo. I got it when I was not serving the Lord and I now wish I didn't have it. No one can see it. My cousin had one in the exact same place that was pretty and I wanted one too.

Can tattoos be stumbling blocks? anything can be a stumbling block to someone else who may be weaker in the faith.

iansmith wrote:

but only sinners get tattoos.

Well, you're a sinner, so why are you fighting this so much!?

:-(

iansmith wrote:

Go to your prayer closet now and ask Jesus if he would have you get a tattoo... I can tell you that if you are really communicating with Jesus the answer will be No! It will be no for many reasons, because it's a waste of resources, because it's a bad testimony, because of its association with darkness and satan... but we ignore that because we justify ourselves and close our ears to the Holy Spirit's speaking!

It so happens that I did pray before getting my tattoo! :-)

Thanks for trying to play God, but He doesn't need your help.

Love you brother, but please do not sit there and think that you have any right to judge my heart!

jimdied2sin wrote:

You're right, tattoos aren't sin, but only sinners get tattoos.

Ian -

I am publicly rebuking you. If you are going to be a pharisee you should stop advertising that you indulge in fantasy novels about witchcraft as to maintain a better outward appearance of holiness. Please read the beginning of Romans 2.

(PS, I have no tattoos)

In Christ - Jim

hmmm... see now the tables have ironically turned! :-) See, I don't think that we should fill our minds with filth like Harry Potter, but apparently you can justify it! Interesting!

However, I will not do as you have done to me, dear brother. I will not say that it is because of your unrepentant heart towards witchcraft that we don't have revival in America.

jimdied2sin wrote:
PS- I love you guys on this thread. I do pray when I see someone in error that their eyes may be opened (and my hope is that some here pray for me too, I need it).

The greatest of these is love.

In Christ - Jim

Amen

Funny, I was publically rebuking these self-justifying people in this thread... I thought the words and the tone I was using spoke for themselves.

As for the Harry Potter thing, I have already repented. Should have asked me about that one -I brought up the fantasy novel to show the hypocrisy, not justify myself -I was wrong and I won't deny that. The Lord has already been dealing in my heart with such things. I made the mistake of reading Ravenhill's 'America is too young to Die.' Things are changing.

I am not preaching against brethren having tattoos, we've all made mistakes in our past we regret -I have my own impurities to deal with. But I do stand firm in my conviction that it is not becoming of a Christian to GET new tattoos. It goes against every fibre of what I know to be true, holy, pure etc.

It's not personal bias, I fellowship with believers who have tattoos, but I will speak the same things to them as well -it doesn't show good stewardship of our resources, self discipline, or proper motivation in most cases.

I was being harsh for the sake of being harsh, I'm trying to get people's attention because this isn't just a minor issue, there are no minor issues when it comes to faith.

When I was reading Harry Potter I had mixed motivations for reading, I thought I was justified at the time but realized afterwards that I had been self-justifying my actions -I was thankful for all those who spoke up on the thread, I didn't agree with everything they said, but it got me to think -that's what is important, we need to think.

I just got back from lunch with another brother who works here in the ministry in the IT dept, he's a young guy like myself, and we joked about getting motorcycles. I then brought up the topic of tattoos and it was almost like repeating this thread -he had actually been thinking about getting one. But I didn't yell in his face. I asked him why, and whether he had spoken with the Lord about it.

He confessed that he hadn't recieved an answer from the Lord of either a yes or a no, but that he had some doubts. I then remembered when Oswald Chambers shared that doubts are usually a sign that the Holy Spirit is telling us to stop. I shared that with him. He didn't say he wasn't going to get the tattoo, but I think I gave him a lot to think about.

Honestly speaking, we can be better than this! We have to be better than this! There are eternal souls at stake.

Greetings sis Melissa and all in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN

Yes, I automatically think something about someone with tattoos. Is what I assume about them correct? Most likely not. It is just human nature to do such a thing and I have to catch myself and think...what does God think about this person (i.e. He loves them, wants them to be born again, if they are not)

praise God for what you said here because i think this issue is huge and we have pushed it aside. The issue of how we need to repent of our filthy thought processes which from birth have us assume things based on their appearance. This is of the devil because he knows if we are consumed with what is on the surface, we won't care about what is of Substance. If we find ourselves immediately assuming something about someone based on anything you see be it skin colour, tattoo, long hair, we need to repent...Now there are instances in which our spirit will bear witness to something wicked at work when you see all the way to a person's heart.

may our Lord give us eyes to see through the surface and see what is in the hearts of men.AMEN.

this is why my hair is long, to remind me of the battle which goes on daily, the rotten asumptions of men based on an outward observation without an inner Revelation.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Ironman: what about the unbeliever who assumes that your'e a hypocrite and aren't walking in line with your beliefs because of the way you dress, speak, have your hair, your body.

You know, I've been reaching out to people of alternative persuasions in Seattle for a long time and never had anyone turn to me and say, 'you know, I just can't believe what you believe in because you dress so modestly and have a clean haircut'

I'm not especially concerned about what believers think of other believers... my main concern is that we are bringing glory to the Lord, not bringing shame to his name!

People ARE going to make judgements based on appearance, both believers and unbelievers... let us be free of any blemishes that might cause unbelievers to doubt our testimony.

Do you think he ever cut himself again? Do you think he proudly showed the scars that remained... or do you think he glowed with a new life given by Jesus?

Mark 5 (King James)
1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3W ho had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

5 [b]And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, [u]and cutting himself with stones[/u]. [/b]

6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

12And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

14And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

15And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, [b]sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind[/b]: and they were afraid.

iansmith wrote:
I'm not especially concerned about what believers think of other believers...

Wait...what? Ummm... hmmm, then can you tell me what your whole diatribe was about with believers getting tattoos??

EDIT: You're certianly concerned about me. In fact your so concerned about me that apparently I am the reason for the lack of revival taking place in America, as so you stated.

iansmith wrote:
Do you think he ever cut himself again? Do you think he proudly showed the scars that remained... or do you think he glowed with a new life given by Jesus?

Mark 5 (King James)
1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3W ho had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

5 [b]And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, [u]and cutting himself with stones[/u]. [/b]

6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

12And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

14And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

15And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, [b]sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind[/b]: and they were afraid.

Ok, so explain to me how demon possession relates to a Christian having or getting tattoos...

I'm not quite following

jimdied2sin wrote:

-I was thankful for all those who spoke up on the thread, I didn't agree with everything they said, but it got me to think -that's what is important, we need to think.

Amen, fair enough brother.

In Christ - Jim

Agreed

Iansmith -

You still haven't come up with any conclusive Scripture to back up any of your points.

You still haven't come up with any conclusive Scripture to back up any of your points.

If you’re looking for a scripture that specifically says you can’t get a tattoo you can stop; you won't find it. Just like you won't find one that specifically says not to punch your brother in the face. :-)

Bro Ian

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Ironman: what about the unbeliever who assumes that your'e a hypocrite and aren't walking in line with your beliefs because of the way you dress, speak, have your hair, your body.

i've never encountered an unbeliever who thought i was a heathen on account of how i look...now i have encountered many a saint who have assumed such. Even when my hair was short for some reason it was the saints i found who thought less of me than i was mostly. being African for some reason caused people to think i was Muslim or Buddhist (don't ask why, i don't know) and being young most people for whatever reason even among saints, i am looked at as knowing nothing about God such that if God opens my mouth to speak and dispel that notion i get blank stares and i get treated very differently...all of a sudden i am smart and then i get fawned over like the token African Christian...The thing of it is as saints, we ought to have put away such foolishness already, we should not assume this and that about anyone except we receive word about that person and verify it is true.

i dress like most people i think, i don't wear my pants off my butt or anything, i dress simply but sometimes people can find fault with that also. i have an accent so i guess i speak funny and that can put people off, i don't curse or anything and people can look at that and assume i am a goody-2-shoes...

You know, I've been reaching out to people of alternative persuasions in Seattle for a long time and never had anyone turn to me and say, 'you know, I just can't believe what you believe in because you dress so modestly and have a clean haircut'

i have spoken to "normal-looking" people who have been heathens so it seems it goes both ways. Even the so called "normal" looking saints have quirks and things which can cause others to stumble.

I'm not especially concerned about what believers think of other believers... my main concern is that we are bringing glory to the Lord, not bringing shame to his name!

but dear brother we also have to remember that as brethren we ought to see eachother through the same Eyes God sees us or else the heathen, who are not blind to this by the way, will themselves see us all as hypocrites. So what we think of one another does matter because if it is not what God thinks of us, then we have a problem...We bring shame to His name by how we treat one another sometimes, Lovelessness, bitterness, envy and so on and yet Christ said that if we Loved one another as He Loved us, then the world would know we are His. What we do will speak much louder than how we look. now i am not saying we don't tend to ourselves, we ought to so do but what good is it to tend to ourselves if our hearts are not right toward one another? God sees all the way through to our heart and is not deceived by our play-acting.

People ARE going to make judgements based on appearance, both believers and unbelievers... let us be free of any blemishes that might cause unbelievers to doubt our testimony.

that the heathens would make judgments is given, but they judge not according to Knowledge often times. Sometimes God shows them our hypocrisy for what it is...all the same that the saints of God would Judge in the same manner is an abominable thing! surely we are to observe and discern by our spirit what manner of man/woman we are dealing with rather than go by looks. Saints if we don't get past this shallowness how shall we deal properly with bigger issues?

again i am not saying that we ought not to take care of ourselves and such, but we ought to dig a bit deeper don't you think?

again i think ultimately, if someone does something to you, we still have a responsibility to do the right thing. it is easy to be a good Christian when all is well, easy to be a bad one too...however the true test of what manner of Christian we are comes when things are not ideal...what would Jesus do? would He not look into the hearts of men? a woman may dress seductively and that may be wrong but we have a responsibility not to lust after her also, can we say that we are bound to lust after such without hope of breaking free of that?God forbid that such thoughts should enter into the minds of His saints! so what shall we say if someone causes us to stumble, it is not lisence for us to fall into sin but to leap into the arms of our Saviour who would bear us up and keep us from falling.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

I haven’t read all of the comments so I apologize if I am redundant.

When I was in my teens and my early 20’s I had my eyebrow pierced twice and I was into tattoos (I never ended up getting one). I know why I did it and why it was so exciting to me. I was rebellious and I wanted to stand out and make everyone look at me. At the time piercings were still not that popular (and this was in the middle of Chicago) and I got attention everywhere I went because of it. I loved the attention whether it was good or bad, I just liked the focus to be on me. I personally feel that anyone who gets a tattoo is doing the same thing; they want to draw attention to themselves. I wonder WHY would someone feel the need for a tattoo? Does it glorify God? I don’t think that GOD gets the glory when people are ogling your flesh. It doesn’t matter if it’s a cross or Bible verse…it is still drawing attention to YOU. As far as it being a “witnessing tool”, I think that is just a cheap excuse to use. I find it hard to believe that the Lord thinks drawing attention to your flesh is a good way to convert people. When it comes down to it I know that we do things like this for our own pleasure and NOT for God.

One last thing…

I also am aware of the sensations and feelings that come with being pierced or tattooed. It is addictive once you’ve done it. Also, let’s think of the kinds of places you have to go into in order to get one. Should we, as Christians, be seen walking in or out of one of these places? And if this is your witnessing tool…did you succeed in bringing the “tattoo artist” to Christ? Food for thought. =0)

In Christ our King,
Dawn

reformer wrote:

i don't think that iansmith is saying that having tattoos are wrong and sinful and he is not judging someone based on tattoo? ( At least from what I have been reading)

Hi, Reformer, and good morning! This is a good subject to talk about.... to some degree. This subject comes up often on Sermonindex. i think the point that I try to draw out is that I don't think it is a salvation issue, whether a person gets a tattoo before being born again, or after. There are some stiff-necked people on here though that'll fight to the death that it is an horrible atroctious sin. And they also make a way, by what they say, that they have every right to judge a person (whether Christian, or not), and I think it is this that goes aganst Scripture.

Maybe you should read iansmith's posts more closely. He judged me by saying that due to my unrepentent heart towards tattoos that I am the cause, I am the reason there is no revival in America. Trust me, he is playing God, judge, and jury, and I feel that he is wrong for doing that.

tjservant wrote:

You still haven't come up with any conclusive Scripture to back up any of your points.

If you’re looking for a scripture that specifically says you can’t get a tattoo you can stop; you won't find it. Just like you won't find one that specifically says not to punch your brother in the face. :-)

Thank you! That is my point, but Iansmith insists upon it.... that is why I asked the way I did.

:-) :-(

IRONMAN wrote:
Bro Ian

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Ironman: what about the unbeliever who assumes that your'e a hypocrite and aren't walking in line with your beliefs because of the way you dress, speak, have your hair, your body.

i've never encountered an unbeliever who thought i was a heathen on account of how i look...now i have encountered many a saint who have assumed such. Even when my hair was short for some reason it was the saints i found who thought less of me than i was mostly. being African for some reason caused people to think i was Muslim or Buddhist (don't ask why, i don't know) and being young most people for whatever reason even among saints, i am looked at as knowing nothing about God such that if God opens my mouth to speak and dispel that notion i get blank stares and i get treated very differently...all of a sudden i am smart and then i get fawned over like the token African Christian...The thing of it is as saints, we ought to have put away such foolishness already, we should not assume this and that about anyone except we receive word about that person and verify it is true.

i dress like most people i think, i don't wear my pants off my butt or anything, i dress simply but sometimes people can find fault with that also. i have an accent so i guess i speak funny and that can put people off, i don't curse or anything and people can look at that and assume i am a goody-2-shoes...

You know, I've been reaching out to people of alternative persuasions in Seattle for a long time and never had anyone turn to me and say, 'you know, I just can't believe what you believe in because you dress so modestly and have a clean haircut'

i have spoken to "normal-looking" people who have been heathens so it seems it goes both ways. Even the so called "normal" looking saints have quirks and things which can cause others to stumble.

I'm not especially concerned about what believers think of other believers... my main concern is that we are bringing glory to the Lord, not bringing shame to his name!

but dear brother we also have to remember that as brethren we ought to see eachother through the same Eyes God sees us or else the heathen, who are not blind to this by the way, will themselves see us all as hypocrites. So what we think of one another does matter because if it is not what God thinks of us, then we have a problem...We bring shame to His name by how we treat one another sometimes, Lovelessness, bitterness, envy and so on and yet Christ said that if we Loved one another as He Loved us, then the world would know we are His. What we do will speak much louder than how we look. now i am not saying we don't tend to ourselves, we ought to so do but what good is it to tend to ourselves if our hearts are not right toward one another? God sees all the way through to our heart and is not deceived by our play-acting.

People ARE going to make judgements based on appearance, both believers and unbelievers... let us be free of any blemishes that might cause unbelievers to doubt our testimony.

that the heathens would make judgments is given, but they judge not according to Knowledge often times. Sometimes God shows them our hypocrisy for what it is...all the same that the saints of God would Judge in the same manner is an abominable thing! surely we are to observe and discern by our spirit what manner of man/woman we are dealing with rather than go by looks. Saints if we don't get past this shallowness how shall we deal properly with bigger issues?

again i am not saying that we ought not to take care of ourselves and such, but we ought to dig a bit deeper don't you think?

again i think ultimately, if someone does something to you, we still have a responsibility to do the right thing. it is easy to be a good Christian when all is well, easy to be a bad one too...however the true test of what manner of Christian we are comes when things are not ideal...what would Jesus do? would He not look into the hearts of men? a woman may dress seductively and that may be wrong but we have a responsibility not to lust after her also, can we say that we are bound to lust after such without hope of breaking free of that?God forbid that such thoughts should enter into the minds of His saints! so what shall we say if someone causes us to stumble, it is not lisence for us to fall into sin but to leap into the arms of our Saviour who would bear us up and keep us from falling.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Such a great post Ironman. I've gone through similiar things growing up, which I think is why I am a little offended by iansmith.

I remember growing up going to a CHRISTIAN school, and being judged and rediculed and made fun of for being a pastor's kid. I was A PASTOR'S KID, and Christians made fun of me. It breaks my heart that there are still Christians today that will judge a fellow believer.

Now, I think it is ok to counsel, help, and edify a fellow believer, but to judge is another story.

My family was also extremely poor. It was tough having two parents and three other siblings living on $9000/yr. for several years, and we were judged by Christians for it. The clothes we wore - we were judged, and criticized by Christians.

I think it sucks that Christians think they have every right to judge based upon their own prejudices against people.

What's funny is that my parents thought it was a ghastly sin to have long hair, so you know what I had for 15 years of my childhood? The exact same semi-short hair each and every haircut. I was made fun of, and critized by CHRISTIANS for a stinking haircut.

And still to this day I am judged by Christians and told that I am the reason that there is no revival in America. Never mind that I have a heart for revival, and nevermind that I have prayed long and hard for several years to see revival take place... I am the personal cause for revival not happening at all in America.

Somehow that doesn't make me feel loved by people who are supposed to love me the most, and I am their own flesh and blood (as far as being a brother in the Lord). What irony! :-?

quote]
reformer wrote:

Leviticus 19:28
"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord."

I read a point someone made that many will say that is the OLD testament, if that is the statement to be made then you must considered, Leviticus 18:23 "Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion" So because that is OLD testament law it doesn't apply to the HOLY GOD of the New testament?

just a thought

Hi Reformer. Yes, this is the Scripture that many turn to, Even I did at first. Then I read the Scriptures more closely and also heard from many a scholar, that the tattoo Scripture is talking about not doing the cutting and tattooing to pagan gods or to worship the dead.

Scripture also says in Leviticus to not trim our sideburns, or beards, and yet, most all of us do that. So would this not be be a dastardly sin just as wrong and horrendous as the tattoo? And don't tell me, "Oh but that's different!"

Jim,

Amen brother. I agree. I too appreciate those who are bringing this issue to light. I wish it would be a more fascinating subject to discuss, myself, instead of the harsh words and judgement that so often takes form with these topics.

Leviticus 19:19-29
19 'You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you. 20 Whoever lies carnally with a woman who is betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; but they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. 21 And he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, a ram as a trespass offering. 22 The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed. And the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him. 23 'When you come into the land, and have planted all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count their fruit as uncircumcised. Three years it shall be as uncircumcised to you. It shall not be eaten. 24 But in the fourth year all its fruit shall be holy, a praise to the Lord. 25 And in the fifth year you may eat its fruit, that it may yield to you its increase: I am the Lord your God. 26 'You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor shall you practice divination or soothsaying. 27 You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard. 28 You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord. 29 'Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot, lest the land fall into harlotry, and the land become full of wickedness

Art Katz in his sermon talks about tatoo's in
Katz[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=14171]Mens Hatred of God by Art Katz[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=14172]Men's Hatred of God- Part 2[/url]

He talks about how it is rebellious because it says to god and adds to god creation.
In our church my friend Johnny G is a former tatootist and he gave it up because of the verse up the top.
If we view this issue from a heavenly issue, if god looks down to see what we have done to our bodies as they are a temple of the holy spirit.
I do not look down on people who before they were saved got tatoo's but christians should not get tatoo's

DawnB wrote:
I also am aware of the sensations and feelings that come with being pierced or tattooed. It is addictive once you’ve done it. Also, let’s think of the kinds of places you have to go into in order to get one. Should we, as Christians, be seen walking in or out of one of these places? And if this is your witnessing tool…did you succeed in bringing the “tattoo artist” to Christ? Food for thought. =0)

In Christ our King,
Dawn

I guess my response to this is... Should "Christians" be seen going in and out of church, when they live their lives the rest of the week avoiding God as much as possible?

I have been able to converse with my tattoo artist about God, and what the symbol means. I have a tattoo that expresses my desire to see revival take place in my life and America, and she asked about it. I got to share what it means. Did she come to know the Lord? No, but at least I was able share some about my faith. She also has another client that comes in and he has been getting biblical characters all over his body for several years now, done by her. He is also able to be a witness, to her.

So, can witnessing be done? It sure can.

Deltadom -

He talks about how it is rebellious because it says to god and adds to god creation.
In our church my friend Johnny G is a former tatootist and he gave it up because of the verse up the top.
If we view this issue from a heavenly issue, if god looks down to see what we have done to our bodies as they are a temple of the holy spirit.
I do not look down on people who before they were saved got tatoo's but christians should not get tatoo's

Can we all please stop using "We are a temple of the Holy Spirit" when it comes to this discussion. I understand that we are, but come on, read it for its context. WHY and where was that verse put? Read it for what it is!

It adds to God's creation? Ok, I guess I can give you that... so, I guess that sucks for all of us, who are wearing our clothes that we are wearing, the computer that we are on, the cars we drive, the trails we carve-so we can go hiking, the houses we build out of wood, rock or brick, the processed foods we eat, having chocolate milk instead of regular milk, writing with ink and charcoal-instead of knife and stone, the caves we make to mine, caves for trains to go through mountains, breeding new kinds of cats and dogs and so on and so on. Let's get real! That is all "Adding" to God's creation! Is it not!?

1Co 3:17 - Show Context
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

I am not saying in that way but your body is not your own and belongs to the Lord. It says that in scripture.
Tatoo's do not come of.

1Co 6:20 - Show Context
For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Co 7:23 - Show Context
You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

Is it an offence to add something to your body which pagans do. As it also says in

Psalm 139
1 For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. O Lord, You have searched me and known me. 2 You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off. 3 You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. 5 You have hedged me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it.

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, 10 Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall fall F101 on me," Even the night shall be light about me; 12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You. 13 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; F102 Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them! 18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand; When I awake, I am still with You. 19 Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men. 20 For they speak against You wickedly; Your enemies take Your name in vain. F103 21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; 24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

If you want to do evangelism hand out tracks!!!!! or preach the gospel down your town centre.

Hey guys, I found a Scripture in the Bible that is relevant to our discussion at hand!:

Acts 28:13 - From there we set sail and arrived at Rhegium. The next day the south wind came up, and on the following day we reached Puteoli.

If you read it just right it says that tattooing is a sin... see!

Ben,

Good idea! Let's look at it in context:

1 Corinthians 6

18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore [b]glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's[/b].

The context of these verses is in reference to fornication, but they are not ABOUT fornication, they are about our ownership. We are owned by God who redeemed us, the choices over what we do with our body, put in our body, put on our body etc. belong to God!

I think the context is very clear. I think you want to glorify God with your Spirit and are assuming that is enough, God also owns your body and wants your body to glorify Him! It is not one or the other, it is both.

Ben, I have been on your side of this same arguement in a different thread, I refused to hear my brothers and sisters when they told me not to read Harry Potter. Now you may think it's not the same, but it really is. If you go and look at that thread, you will hear me making the same excuses you are making, that other believers were narrow minded, unloving and judgemental.

You know what, Paul Washer said in one of his sermons, 'your best friend is the one who tells you the most truth.' I was thinking, you know, if I had a chance to meet with the Apostle Paul, what would we talk about, would I be ashamed to have read Harry Potter... the answer is yes.

Now another brother here brought up the issue of love and judgementalism. I want to tell you, Love is jealous and judgemental! God is Love, but God is also Justice and Purity and Holiness! We can always cry out for the love, but sometimes his love comes in the form of judgement (part of justice) chastening (for the sake of purity) and scourging (see john 15, for holiness)! Love hurts.

Most modern theologians believed that the bible has nothing to do with Praxis (if you don't know what praxis is, look it up). They say that the theology is clear, and the ethic is clear, but the practical every day issues are ambiguous... this is a 20th century idea. For 19 centuries before this, our church fahters have always gone to the bible with practical issues pertaining to daily choices.

We must go to the Word for Praxis, and we must trust what it says, and apply it generally.

[b]Frankly, I would rather be caught at the judgement seat being told I was too zealous in applying the Word to my life than not zealous enough![/b]

You want revival? Pray! But also, start living like it.

We love AW Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill etc... they were all loving guys, but I have to wonder, if you came into their living room to show them your new Tattooo what their response would be!? (this is a rhetorical question) Now we can say that they lived in a different era, a different mindset, but you know what, I think it's because they lived at the foot of the cross!

Now, obviously I was being very sarcastic. And I know that there is no Scripture that specifically states, "You shall not tattoo." However, that being said, that is part of the point. People keep bringing up Scripture that is pretty much, if not totally, irrelevant to the topic at hand.

What is mostly being brought up are your thoughts, and opinions, that you state as fact. Then you try and bring up Scripture to support your opinion.

I mean come on. If you want to seriously discuss this matter. Let's keep to the relevancy of the topic!

iansmith wrote:
Ben,

Good idea! Let's look at it in context:

1 Corinthians 6

[b]glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's[/b].

Ian.... let's read the verse again! What does it say. Glorify God IN your body. Read it for the context that it is brother. ANd indeed, it is talking about fornication! You did get one thing right!

forgive me I should have put that verse in context
the verse in corinthians

Leviticus 19:19-29
19 'You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you. 20 Whoever lies carnally with a woman who is betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; but they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. 21 And he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, a ram as a trespass offering. 22 The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed. And the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him. 23 'When you come into the land, and have planted all kinds of trees for food, then you shall count their fruit as uncircumcised. Three years it shall be as uncircumcised to you. It shall not be eaten. 24 But in the fourth year all its fruit shall be holy, a praise to the Lord. 25 And in the fifth year you may eat its fruit, that it may yield to you its increase: I am the Lord your God. 26 'You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor shall you practice divination or soothsaying. 27 You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard. 28 You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord. 29 'Do not prostitute your daughter, to cause her to be a harlot, lest the land fall into harlotry, and the land become full of wickedness.

BenBrockway wrote:

And still to this day I am judged by Christians and told that I am the reason that there is no revival in America.

I believe this supports the “they are a stumbling block” side of the argument from the original question. If the majority of Christians have a problem with them, whether for religious reasons or not, should they not be avoided? Is this not reason enough?

If I have NO problem eating “a certain food”, but 70% of my brothers and sisters DO, am I not creating a stumbling block for them?

Delta, Great reference!

14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Delta-dude,

Read the earlier posts. That whole part about cutting and tattooing was because at the time, they were turning to idols and worshipping the dead. They were tattooing and cutting themselves to their god (saying they belong to that god) and also worshipping the dead in the same manner!

reformer wrote:
Maybe I missed his points, but for me I don't agree with tattoo's. If a person wants to get them, thats there choice, its not for me to say you can't; like I said, if I am asked by a brother or sister my opinion then I will tell them.

bless you brother
REformer

Thanks Reformer, this is my only point. There are things I don't like either. I don't Harry Potter, but I'm not going to judge, redicule, and criticise my wife, or Ian for it.

I don't agree with everything on this website, but it's worth reading, gives some great things to think about:

http://www.av1611.org/tattoos/intro.html

..
http://www.av1611.org/tattoos/death.html

TJ
You have to read it in context though, brother. For example, if I think it is ok to drink, should I drink in front of a former alcoholic? No. If it is AGAINST someone's religion to eat a particular meat, should I eat it in front of them? No.

Actually the meat one was about believers...

tjservant wrote:
BenBrockway wrote:

And still to this day I am judged by Christians and told that I am the reason that there is no revival in America.

I believe this supports the “they are a stumbling block” side of the argument from the original question. If the majority of Christians have a problem with them, whether for religious reasons or not, should they not be avoided? Is this not reason enough?

If I have NO problem eating “a certain food”, but 70% of my brothers and sisters DO, am I not creating a stumbling block for them?

It doesn't support the stumbling block theory, because my general point was my being judged by Christians. I was judged for being poor. I was judged for having the same hair cut for 15 years, I was judged for not being that good at certian sports, and I was judged for being a pastor's kid.... ALL AT A CHRISTIAN school.

So, according to your response, my life is a stumbling block? So, should I just end my life now so that I won't make ian or any one else stumble?

My friend John is a former tatotist who is now a christian and if he from this verse decided to give up tattooing because of this verse is it not good enough for you.
Whats so different now does not Jesus say in scripture

Matthew 5:17-20
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven

We had a talk from a former satanist who used to do some horrible things and how he hated this and how he thought the Harry Potter books were evil

Tatoos are from a pagan age in which has not yet died. It is Paganism outright.
I had a friend Jim who had tatoos and by the time he was 70 they looked really bad. He got them before he was a christian.

Is it not simple and clear from scripture!!!

Someone needs to learn to let things go.

Forgive us our sins, as we [b]forgive[/b] those who sin against us.

It doesn't say 'as we carry this around as it eats us up inside and we use it as an excuse to warrant any choices we make that may be contrary to what the bible and other christians say is right.'

this issue is not about forgiveness this issue is about what we believe as christians.
How can we be christians if we do not do what the bible says or are we worshiping another Jesus.

Delta, I was referencing Ben's comment on the Christian school kids.

Just because it's a Christian school doesn't mean everyone's going to act like Jesus -far from it, a lot of parents send their kids to Christian schools hoping to convert them.

I went to christian school! I know that many people who go to christian schools are not christians!
Dom

BenBrockway wrote:

It doesn't support the stumbling block theory, because my general point was my being judged by Christians. I was judged for being poor. I was judged for having the same hair cut for 15 years, I was judged for not being that good at certian sports, and I was judged for being a pastor's kid....

Actually it does support it. You listed things you have/had no control over.
You are in control of the issue we are discussing now. It's your decision.

Hmm... I wonder where Krispy is, he's been unusually silent on this thread, especially one that he was active in early one -could he possibly have run out of things to say?! Naw...

Hmm... I wonder where Krispy is, he's been unusually silent on this thread, especially one that he was active in early one -could he possibly have run out of things to say?! Naw...

He addressed the questions I had regarding the stumbling block issue.

I asked on the first post of this thread to please not turn it into a “to get them or not get them debate”

Hi delta. You referenced Matt 5:17-20. I'm not sure what that is reference to. Could you explain?

God bless you bro. :-)

ian. You are missing the point dear brother. I have let things go. In fact one of the main kids who had made fun of me, criticised and judged me was at my cousin's wedding several years and we got to talk, and he apologized and everything.

So, my point was not to neccesarily bring up past baggage, but merely to point out how upsetting it is to see that there are still Christians today (as there was in my past), like yourself, who judge, condemn, and criticize another fellow believer.

TJ,

I think I see where you are going. I guess I just don't see how tattoos can be a stumbling block. I have never heard of a tattoo causing a fellow believer to sin.

BenBrockway wrote:
TJ,

I think I see where you are going. I guess I just don't see how tattoos can be a stumbling block. I have never heard of a tattoo causing a fellow believer to sin.

They stumble into judgment, as this thread has demonstrated.

jimdied2sin wrote:
Interesting comments all. I will look further into the scriptures to see what they say on the matter. For the most part, poor hermenutics were used to defend the anit tattoo position, but I appreciate those who have supplied some areas of scripture to meditate on. As Ian said earlier, it is good to be challenged to examine why believe what we do. I will exit the thread on that note. May we all seek after Him for true heart holiness in all manners of life and not put unneccessarry burdens on our brothers because of personal opinions (and may we spend enough time in secret prayer to know the difference).

Much love to those on both sides of this issue.

In Christ - Jim

AMEN brother! AMEN!

reformer wrote:
someone mentioned that "not for the dead." Look at the verse closely.

Lev.19:28 'Ye shall not make [b]ANY[/b] cuttings in your flesh [u][i]for the dead[/i][/u], nor [tattoo] any marks upon you: I am the Lord.'

The cutting was to indicate it was [b]for the dead.[/b] Doesn't not say that the marks or tattoo's were being made [b]for the dead?[/b]

"While ‘cuttings in the flesh’ have reference here to mourning customs [for the dead], the tattooing does not appear to pertain to such practice."
(Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, 1975 ed., p. 1664)

Reformer

I wonder if it was me. If it was, I really did mean, as you say Scripture says "for the dead"
:-)

Lev 19:28
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord.

note the comma in the verse, it says you shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, (comma) nor tattoo any marks on you. I am the Lord

The verse is split in two and the first part deals with making any cuttings in your flesh for the dead and the second part deals with tattoo's

tjservant wrote:

BenBrockway wrote:
TJ,

I think I see where you are going. I guess I just don't see how tattoos can be a stumbling block. I have never heard of a tattoo causing a fellow believer to sin.

They stumble into judgment, as this thread has demonstrated.

Thanks for your clarification, brother. I see where you are headed, and I definantly have seen the judgement on this thread.

I wonder, though if it is a legitimate stumbling block, though. You know what I mean? I mean, what if Jerry Garcia's ties were a "stumbling block." Should a Christian not wear a Jerry Garcia tie just because a fellow believer judges him for it? It may be a lame example, but I think it is a valid example considering your definition of stumbling block.

Just curious.
:-D

deltadom wrote:
Lev 19:28
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord.

note the comma in the verse, it says you shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, (comma) nor tattoo any marks on you. I am the Lord

The verse is split in two and the first part deals with making any cuttings in your flesh for the dead and the second part deals with tattoo's

My only point delta is that many a Scholar have said that those two go hand in hand together when it comes to why they were supposed to do those things, because they were doing it as a form of worship to pagan things.

For example, if I claim to be apart of the "Jesus-tribe" and decided that God isn't good enough to worship, so I decided to turn to the god of cactus juice and cut markings into my skin so that my blood and cactus juice can mix and run down my body together as a sign of worship, or tattooed a cactus on my body as a way of saying that I belong to the cactus juice god, then that would be a horrible wretched offense to our God, especially when I classify myself a part of the "Jesus-tribe."

That's my take on it.

I wonder, though if it is a legitimate stumbling block, though. You know what I mean? I mean, what if Jerry Garcia's ties were a "stumbling block." Should a Christian not wear a Jerry Garcia tie just because a fellow believer judges him for it? It may be a lame example, but I think it is a valid example considering your definition of stumbling block.

A stumbling block is just that, something that causes one to stumble. Stumble…cause to falter in ones step or path.

If anything causes my brother or sister to stumble in thought, word, or deed, or even get close to sinning, it is enough for me to deny self and stop doing whatever it is.

I do not wish to engage in any activity that could possibly lead to a brother or sister stumbling.

The spiritual warfare we face on a daily basis is intense enough without our brothers and sisters tripping us up.

I may do things that cause people to stumble, but not intentionally, and when it is brought to my attention I stop.

I want to be a source of strength not a cause for weakness. I am my brother’s keeper.

tjservant wrote:

I wonder, though if it is a legitimate stumbling block, though. You know what I mean? I mean, what if Jerry Garcia's ties were a "stumbling block." Should a Christian not wear a Jerry Garcia tie just because a fellow believer judges him for it? It may be a lame example, but I think it is a valid example considering your definition of stumbling block.

A stumbling block is just that, something that causes one to stumble. Stumble…cause to falter in ones step or path.

If anything causes my brother or sister to stumble in thought, word, or deed, or even get close to sinning, it is enough for me to deny self and stop doing whatever it is.

I do not wish to engage in any activity that could possibly lead to a brother or sister stumbling.

The spiritual warfare we face on a daily basis is intense enough without our brothers and sisters tripping us up.

I may do things that cause people to stumble, but not intentionally, and when it is brought to my attention I stop.

I want to be a source of strength not a cause for weakness. I am my brother’s keeper.

TJ,

I totally agree with what you're saying. I too want to be a source of strength, not a cause for weakness.

I may not see this particular issue of tattoos in the same way you do, however, I think we can agree that "The spiritual warfare we face on a daily basis is intense enough without our brothers and sisters tripping us up."

I hope that you and everyone else can see that I am not trying to be hard-pressed about tattoos. I am merely wanting to see a discussion take place that is a good and legitimate discussion concerning the tattoo topic.

It shouldn't be laced with comments and judgements that ian has said and done.

I think this is the reason I have been a little outspoken or vocal concerning this issue.

May the Lord convict us in area's where we are impure in thought, word, and deed.

We have to remember when Cain replied to God, 'Am I my brother's keeper?' he was in sin.

Ben, whatever I said was not to make myself feel good, because I don't -I don't like being called judgemental as much as the next guy. But what I said was for your sake.

Like I said earlier when I quoted Paul Washer, 'your best friend is the one who tells you the most truth.' I'm just trying to be your friend here.

I was harsh for the sake of getting your attention, you might want a refresher on Hebrews chapter 12 and the chastening of the Lord. God only chastens those who are his children. I'm not going to chasten anyone unless they're a friend in Christ, there's no reason for it.

But if someone is running in the direction of a pit, i'm not going to gently tell him to slow down, I'm going to yell at the top of my lungs, 'STOP!'

Frankly, there is enough darkness surrounding tattoos and getting tattoos, and enough connection with the occult and with pagan practices and gang activity, and STDs and new age and drugs and alchohal that any regenerated man, who loves Jesus, should be wary of associating with it... even if it isn't sinful to get one! (which we could continue to debate the finer points).

Even if there was a verse in the bible that said 'don't get tattoos,' you'd find a reason to justify getting them, because you want them. Heck, I'm a young single guy who hasn't been on a date in seven years because I'm zealous about Jesus... before I was a Christian I couldn't go a week without asking a girl out. I could find plenty of justification in the bible to continue dating -and I would be ignoring plenty of the bible that implies (although never explicitely says) that dating is wrong for a believer.

But I know that whatever justification I could give myself for doing it, it would be sinning against God, because I would be chasing after my own sinful desires and trying to control my life apart from Jesus.

I already suggested you go to your prayer closet and lay out the issue before Jesus, I'm going to keep insisting that you will find the answer there, when you are truly honest about your motivations and humble before the cross.

Actually today has been one of my most productive days at work in weeks... even had time to join in the corporate devotions for an hour. However I can see where you're coming from =P Back to work!

iansmith wrote:

Ben, whatever I said was not to make myself feel good, because I don't -I don't like being called judgemental as much as the next guy. But what I said was for your sake.

I'm just trying to be your friend here.

I was harsh for the sake of getting your attention
But if someone is running in the direction of a pit, i'm not going to gently tell him to slow down, I'm going to yell at the top of my lungs, 'STOP!'

You were being a friend? You are justifying your harshness??????????

Are you telling me that, your saying to me that I am the cause for America not having revival, is being a friend???????

I don't think so! Christ, nor Scripture, justifies your rudeness, judgement, criticism, and unchrist-likness.

Even if there was a verse in the bible that said 'don't get tattoos,' you'd find a reason to justify getting them, because you want them.

See, this is what mean, ian. DO NOT judge me based on what you don't know. I guarantee you that this would NOT be the case.

Dude, you are wrong in your judgements, whether it was me you were speaking to, or anyone else on this forum.

and trust me, Scripture does not back you up with your unChristlike attitude.

**EDIT**

I can't believe that you would even dare to play God. Nor can I believe that you think it's ok to trash-talk me with things you are so not aware of.

reformer wrote:
I am actually at home and if I was at work, I still would be checking onto this site often. Of course where I work I have much liberty to do most anything I want. As long as I get done what i need to get done. Usually when someone gets backed into a corner, this is how they re-act! 8-)

Maybe everyone should ask themselves, "what am I like in private, when know one can see me?" :-o

Anyways I am going, I have an appointment for getting a tattoo! :-D Just kidding!! its all about having a healthy discussion, enjoying different opinions. Of course it makes it much more enjoyable when you know your right and others are wrong!!! :-) :-) Again I am kidding!!

:-) :-D ;-) :-P

One man's trash-talk is another man's truth-talk. But there is only one Truth.

The Salvation Army used to march in step through the streets singing hymns, come to bars and command those present to repent of their sins.

Puritan preachers like John Owen and John Bunyan would tell people what was holy and was wicked, in ways that would make us cringe today.

Missionaries like Hudson Taylor, William Booth, Mary Slessor and David Brainerd would command pagans to give up their sins and turn to God.

Great revival preachers like Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney and DL Moody would plead with people to give up their sinful lifestyles and turn to God.

CH Spurgeon would stand in front of thousands of people and preach against the wickedness of entertainment, Finney against drinking coffee, things we would soon excuse.

Leonard Ravenhill and AW Tozer pleaded with men to be pure for the sake of a perishing world.

These men may have been harsh to those in front of them, but their eyes were always on God. They were not 'playing God' they were speaking for him to a lost and perishing world.

These men may not have been 'loving' by your definition, in fact, they may have in fact been very un-christian by your definition... from a worldly standpoint they were intolerant bigots.

But when we get to heaven, we will see them, along with many others standing in the way of faith.

We may have ebraced our freedom to participate in the darkness of this world, but we have forfeited the power that these men freely claimed!

Once again I'll repeat myself... at the Judgement seat of Christ, I would rather be told I was being too zealous for the Word, for the name of my Lord, for purity... than to be told that I failed to be zealous enough.

I will pray for you.

iansmith wrote:
One man's trash-talk is another man's truth-talk. But there is only one Truth.

The Salvation Army used to march in step through the streets singing hymns, come to bars and command those present to repent of their sins.

Puritan preachers like John Owen and John Bunyan would tell people what was holy and was wicked, in ways that would make us cringe today.

Missionaries like Hudson Taylor, William Booth, Mary Slessor and David Brainerd would command pagans to give up their sins and turn to God.

Great revival preachers like Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney and DL Moody would plead with people to give up their sinful lifestyles and turn to God.

CH Spurgeon would stand in front of thousands of people and preach against the wickedness of entertainment, Finney against drinking coffee, things we would soon excuse.

Leonard Ravenhill and AW Tozer pleaded with men to be pure for the sake of a perishing world.

These men may have been harsh to those in front of them, but their eyes were always on God. They were not 'playing God' they were speaking for him to a lost and perishing world.

These men may not have been 'loving' by your definition, in fact, they may have in fact been very un-christian by your definition... from a worldly standpoint they were intolerant bigots.

But when we get to heaven, we will see them, along with many others standing in the way of faith.

We may have ebraced our freedom to participate in the darkness of this world, but we have forfeited the power that these men freely claimed!

Once again I'll repeat myself... at the Judgement seat of Christ, I would rather be told I was being too zealous for the Word, for the name of my Lord, for purity... than to be told that I failed to be zealous enough.

I will pray for you.

Zealousness and unbiblical (& unChristlike) judgement/rudeness/criticism/condemnation are not the same thing dear brother. You were not being zealous. You were the latter.

The things said by the people you gave as examples, I can see as justified. You're statements however cannot be classified in their same category. I guarantee not one of them would respond out the unloving, ungodly, and unbiblical way you have in the course of this thread.

iansmith wrote:
One man's trash-talk is another man's truth-talk.

I can't believe that you are actually trying to justify your rude trash-talking behavior! Dear brother I pray you will one day see that what you are doing is offensive and wrong!

bro Ben
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i had responded to your post earlier this afternoon but i must have rebooted the computer before i sent it! :-P imagine my shock and surprise when i didn't find my response to you as i went through the thread!

Such a great post Ironman. I've gone through similiar things growing up, which I think is why I am a little offended by iansmith.

you know, it seems to me we people will find anything to Judge someone negatively...when i was coming up, well even today, i got teased a lot for my height, of course our Lord compensated by giving me a bigger heart to do things than most others. i suppose we do so that we may feel better about those things which bother us about ourselves. now this is obviously not the way to handle it, we ought to take all things to our Lord.

I remember growing up going to a CHRISTIAN school, and being judged and rediculed and made fun of for being a pastor's kid. I was A PASTOR'S KID, and Christians made fun of me. It breaks my heart that there are still Christians today that will judge a fellow believer.

i have some uncles of mine who preach. one has since died but i am sure it was quite hard on the kids dealing with drama from the other kids about their dad being a pastor...this ought not to be among saints...

What's funny is that my parents thought it was a ghastly sin to have long hair, so you know what I had for 15 years of my childhood? The exact same semi-short hair each and every haircut. I was made fun of, and critized by CHRISTIANS for a stinking haircut.

it's a case of Saddamned if you do, Saddamned if you don't...if the heart of a man is to judge you negatively, he will find something, anything to serve that purpose...surely dear saints we have grown past this? :-?

Somehow that doesn't make me feel loved by people who are supposed to love me the most, and I am their own flesh and blood (as far as being a brother in the Lord). What irony!

i know...sometimes the world treats us better than some of our brethren...and don't mess around and be used of God as a watchmen and announce anything from Him...you may not hear the end of it on this side...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

So true Ironman. So true! How I wish to see Christianity change to be more like Christ. I believe it is then that revival would henceforth come!

Ironman, May God be with you this day as it draws close to another week striving to do the will of Our Father in Heaven. Blessings, my brother. Grace and Peace to you!