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"COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE"

S
sscr01

The Apostle Paul wrote, "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas (Peter); and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

"For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" 1 Cor 1-3.

"For where envying and strife is, there is confusion (as at Babel), and every EVIL work." Ja 3:16.

The denominational system, was never God's plan, but, man's carnal attempt to control the Gospel with his various traditions. The Scripture refers to this Catholic/Protestant religious system, as the "Mother of harlots." Rev 17.

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world, is enmity with God? Whosoever will be the friend of the world, is the ENEMY of God." Ja 4:4.

The prophets, Jesus, His disciples, and God-fearing Christians, have been tortured and martyred for the Gospel, down through the centuries. It is said, that, there were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century, than, in all other centuries combined. Even as we speak, our brethren are suffering for their faith.

So, why aren't we suffering persecution in the USA? Perhaps, because, we are no longer, a serious threat to the powers of darkness. Have we forgotten, that, we are in a spiritual warfare with Satan, having eternal consequences?

Christian comedy, entertaining sermons, politically-correct sermons, fund-raising from the pulpit? Milk, rather, than strong meat? When did Jesus and His disciples participate in such things? They were martyred for preaching the Gospel.

Do you love Him enough to be martyred for Him?

The signs of the end are upon us. It is time to surrender our various church traditions, and cleave to God's Word, alone. I have found, that, most error results from incomplete study of the Scripture. The entire reference for ever doctrine is Genesis-Revelation.

Let us imitate the Bereans: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, searching the Scriptures, daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11.

The Greek word for church, is "ekklesia," which, is defined as, "called-out ones." The Lord has, always, had a remnant people.

"And I heard another Voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." Rev 18:4,5.

Do you hear His Voice?

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my Voice and I know them and they follow me." John 10:27.

S
sermonindex

Much to comment on, many serious comments made that need to be elaborated on more if any wants to join in this thread.

In Christ - Jim

S
sojourner7

The Lord desires a people for His own
possession; sanctified for His glory,
His kingdom, and His purpose!!
The Lord will shake the tree of denomin-
ations down to its very root. If it
is not found to abide in the Vine; it will
be cast aside. Only the true fruit will
remain. Learn the lesson of the fig tree!! :-D

S
Swordbearer

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths strait!!
O generation of vipers-religious leaders-who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance-ye shall know them(the people of God) by their fruits-and begin not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham for our father("I made a "decision" for Christ __ years ago")
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees; every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

It seems as though the greatest problem Jesus Christ faced on this earth was the religious establishment. Or perhaps, the devil working through the religious leaders. "Ye are of your father the devil, [i]and the lusts of your father ye will do[/i]"

If the Son of man were to return to the earth in a body of flesh, what sort of reception would He receive? Think of the preaching of Christ:
"Ye are the salt of the earth, but if the salt have lost his savor wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."
"Ye CANNOT serve God and mammon"(be materialistic)
"Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he CANNOT be my disciple"
"Many are called, but few are chosen"

The question is clear; when the Son of man returns, will He find faith on the earth? Or does He find the "Christians" fullfiling the lusts of the flesh, and fighting and warring amongst one another?
(Rev 3:15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

(Rev 3:16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

(Rev 3:17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

(Rev 3:18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

Oh, that we would we leave the wretchedness of our religious systems and cling to Christ! Do we preach the cross, or do we defend our doctrines?
Pure doctrine is vitally important, terribly important, but so often we are simply defending a doctrine and not bringing glory to Christ.
[b]Looking unto Jesus;[/b] let us buy of Him gold tried in the fire![b]

B
BrokenOne

Excerpts from Escape From Churchianity – Chip Brogden

An intellectual Christianity is what Organized Religion brings. It cannot impart Life. What do I mean by an intellectual Christianity? It is the ABC Gospel. Perhaps you have heard it. Salvation is obtained in three easy steps: "A" stands for "admit you are a sinner"; "B" stands for "believe on the Lord Jesus to save you"; and "C" stands for "confess Jesus as your personal Savior." What is wrong with that? Simply this: there is no Life there. "ABC" will not save us. With "ABC" there is no encounter with Jesus, Who alone is Life. There is only an intellectual acceptance and affirmation of what is presented as "Three Easy Steps". I believe this, I say that, and that makes me a Christian, right? No, it just makes you religious. There are many people who "get religion", but they don't get Jesus.

Organized Religion can bring doctrine, teaching, and belief. Some of it may be morally excellent and good. Some of it may even sound Biblical, like "Three Easy Steps". Nevertheless, Organized Religion cannot impart Life. Why? Because it has no Life to give. Jesus Christ is the Life. And Jesus does not live within the matrix of Organized Religion. He gives HIMSELF. How can any man, organization, or movement claim to give away another man, much less impart the very Life of Jesus Christ? Only Jesus can give Himself as our Life.

You see, then, that the most anyone can do is point people to Jesus as the sole Source of Life. They may contact Life through us, but we cannot give them Life. To those bound by Organized Religion, Jesus cries "You search the Scriptures, because you think in them you have Life. You are content to read about Me, but you will not come to Me that you may have Life (John 5:39,40, paraphrased)." Come to Me! Not, "Memorize these Three Easy Steps and attend the Church of your choice this Sunday." Come to Me! He is Life.

Organized Religion has caused Christianity to morph into Churchianity, a gospel which is easy to believe in but progressively more difficult to live up to.

If God would grant you a moment by His side and allow you a fleeting glance at His Church you would at once understand what a pitiful substitute we have in Organized Religion. There is no vanity so deep as religious vanity, nothing more sickening and diametrically opposed to the heart and ultimate purpose of God.

And we who are in Christ Jesus ARE seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6).

If God is pleased to grant you this vision of His Church then you will come to appreciate it as a blessing and a curse. A blessing, because to see things as He sees them is true Wisdom and Oneness with Him and His people. A curse, because to see things as He sees them will ruin you for life, for you will never again be able to accept the surrogate, the counterfeit, even the good, at the expense of the Holy. His Church, His Treasure, how holy and pure and wonderful and unspeakable it is! Before you would casually call this thing and that thing "church" just like everyone else does and find it socially acceptable, but now your skin will crawl and your stomach will twist in knots when you hear others call some building the "house of God", knowing full well that His House is not this dead thing made with human hands!

S
sscr01

Jesus said, "Not every one that saith, Lord, Lord, shall ENTER into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven.

MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" ("Christians" do works in His name.)

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (lawlessness). Matt 7:21-23.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments. He that saith, I KNOW HIM, and keepeth not his commandments, is a LIAR, and the Truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3,4.

James 2:10,11, tells us, that, if we break one of the commandments, we become transgressors of His law and are guilty of breaking all of them.

My dear brethren, that includes the fourth.

Jesus prophesied of the apostasy in the last days:

"And because iniquity (lawlessness) shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." Matt 24:12.

In the Book of Revelation, there are two churches represented:

In Rev 18:4,5, the Lord charges the "Mother of harlots," with, "sin," which, is the "transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), and "iniquity," which is "lawlessness."

When Jesus gave us the "Two Greatest Commandments," He was quoting the law. Deut 6:5; Lev 19:18.

These two are a summation of The Ten.

If you love the Lord, supremely, you will not worship or, bow down to other gods, take His name in vain, or, profane His holy day. Isa 58:13.

If you love your neighbour as yourself, you will honor your parents, do no murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, or, covet.

"By THIS we know that we love the children of God (#2), when we love God (#1) and keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:2,3.

Not to those under the New Covenant, who have His Covenant (Deut 4:13) engraved upon their hearts and minds. Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:10.

The Bride of Christ keeps His commandments:

"And the dragon (Satan) was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 12:17.

"Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12.

At the very end of the Book of Books, the Apostle John makes a connection between keeping His commandments, and entering Heaven:

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22"14.

S
sermonindex

Just to add that the true "coming out of her" is spiritual, not physical.

If we "come out" of a church or Christian organisation, that we feel has too much of "Babylon" in it, without first having "come out" of our own personal inner "Babylon" then we are probably wasting our time.

Remember Lot's wife.

Jeannette

L
LoveHim

thank you jeanette,

the question has to be asked of us...have we come out of babylon to the holy city Jerusalem?? do we still try to keep our life and have the best of God and man or have we been crucified to this world and been planted in Christ?? anyone can leave an institution to be still bitter and bound by babylon inside.. have we escaped babylon..spiritually as well??

just some thoughts.

C
CJaKfOrEsT


sscr01 wrote:
The denominational system, was never God's plan, but, man's carnal attempt to control the Gospel with his various traditions. The Scripture refers to this Catholic/Protestant religious system, as the "Mother of harlots." Rev 17.

As one who is without denominational affiliation, may I ask where you would have us flee to? This is a practical question, based on the fact that many of the house churches that I have encountered are just as much (if not more) institutionalised than those with a building and a logo on the door.

Perhaps a better question to ask would be what is it about the denominational church that makes it the "Mother of Harlots"? Could the thing that we are missing be the "hiddenness" of the true church? Every group wrestles with the temptation to assert itself as the "remnant", saying that everyone else is at best "second class" or at worst "apostate".

Shouldn't church be about "peers being amongst peers" with each having their own specific function? What if we were to look [b]for[/b] the church [b]within[/b] the "church". Across every denomination I have met both true and false believers, who have varied greatly in the level and methods of objections against the official stances. Some amongst those that I would consider to be true have been ordained, and others have not, but both pretty much ignore this ordination, seeing it only as a tool serving a purpose, rather than the basis of asserting their own authority.

I agree, in part, with the earlier statement about the coming out not necessarily being physical. I personally spent two or three years as a "missionary to the institutional church", after I began to realise what real church is about. My physical departure only occurred because of functional issues, rather than doctrinal.

Now our small fellowship is struggling with the issue of temptation to focus on what's wrong with the church, rather than just getting on with it. When people leave the denominational structure it is common to be highly critical of what they left, in similar ways to how people demonise ex-boy/girlfriends after they break up with them.

It would be wise to be mindful of the parable of the "wheat and the tares" when wading into such and issue.

S
sscr01

When what is taught in my church, doesn't line up with Scripture, I speak up. Some get irritated, but, others encourage me.

It's about being in the system, but, not of the system - just as with the Bereans.

The Ecumenical Movement, sacrifices Scriptural doctrine for unity.

To the Bride of Christ, His Word, alone is life:

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." John 1.

The Word of God - nothing more, and nothing less.

S
sermonindex


CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

sscr01 wrote:
The denominational system, was never God's plan, but, man's carnal attempt to control the Gospel with his various traditions. The Scripture refers to this Catholic/Protestant religious system, as the "Mother of harlots." Rev 17.

As one who is without denominational affiliation, may I ask where you would have us flee to? This is a practical question, based on the fact that many of the house churches that I have encountered are just as much (if not more) institutionalised than those with a building and a logo on the door.

Perhaps a better question to ask would be what is it about the denominational church that makes it the "Mother of Harlots"? Could the thing that we are missing be the "hiddenness" of the true church? Every group wrestles with the temptation to assert itself as the "remnant", saying that everyone else is at best "second class" or at worst "apostate".

Shouldn't church be about "peers being amongst peers" with each having their own specific function? What if we were to look [b]for[/b] the church [b]within[/b] the "church". Across every denomination I have met both true and false believers, who have varied greatly in the level and methods of objections against the official stances. Some amongst those that I would consider to be true have been ordained, and others have not, but both pretty much ignore this ordination, seeing it only as a tool serving a purpose, rather than the basis of asserting their own authority.

I agree, in part, with the earlier statement about the coming out not necessarily being physical. I personally spent two or three years as a "missionary to the institutional church", after I began to realise what real church is about. My physical departure only occurred because of functional issues, rather than doctrinal.

Now our small fellowship is struggling with the issue of temptation to focus on what's wrong with the church, rather than just getting on with it. When people leave the denominational structure it is common to be highly critical of what they left, in similar ways to how people demonise ex-boy/girlfriends after they break up with them.

It would be wise to be mindful of the parable of the "wheat and the tares" when wading into such and issue.

We are gathered together unto Him

We are those who seek to follow the Lamb wherever He goes

We are those liberated in spirit, not to be "church-hoppers" but to "go in and out and find pasture" (John 10 - the word "find" means to come upon, happen upon) - even upon the barren mountains and desert places of the soul.

We are loyal to where He places us, whether in church, or nation, or home or relationships, but we are not part of that Babylonian system any more.

"Let he who has ears to hear, let him hear"

Blessings

Jeannette

L
LoveHim

in my life, i am presently at the same institutionalized system that i grew up in. the difference is because of what God has done in me, i see what God's true church is (us believers) and what it is not (buildings, denominations, etc). this has given me freedom because i am not bound or limited by what "church" or demonination that i am a part of, but rather to seek to love, edify, rebuke, and encourage the true church. now fellowship is not limited to a day (sunday) or time (10:00 am) or place (in a building), but true fellowship in Christ happens all day and in any place where the believers are (in a house, park, store, on the street, etc).

since He has revealed to me what His church is, i am no longer bound by man's religion or man's systems. i don't care about programs, fads, and everything else that will be burned with the fire and found to be wood, hay, and stubble. i only care about Jesus the head, His church the body, and reaching others with the gospel of Christ. that is all that really matters.

in light of Christ, all other things just simply fade away.

S
sermonindex

If any would find ourselves in of a church body that all has the same mind and one accord these days,I don't think we will find it all in the same physical location and if we did we would see instant revival in that unity.

When we look for the perfect church body of believers, as soon as we ourselves would be united there then would it be, at least through my eyes concerning myself. We should ask ourself the question if everyone in the body had the same heart as we did, what kind of church would that be?
However if one is for us to serve in a local body effectively and earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the saints there will be a great need for each of us to honestly be able to say Amen and be in agreement to a large percentage of what is exactly taught (doctrine)within the local body (church)in Bible Study,in what comes from the mouth of the prophet (preacher) in the pulpit. If one is filled with HIS SPIRIT there will be an unction to expose error when discovered. There is need for that to be done in love and respect in which I need much improvement.

I would ask the question not a statement, but is the harlot spoken about in the scriptures, is it the body that could be described as a group that everyone just content to serve and be a member and a part of even when they disagree and can plaining see false teaching?

One of the elements in the local body serving with others is called fellowship.

Question, Will we see the true harlot in full form when the UN controls the world and sets up the world church and it's doctrine? Have we only seen a small variation of the harlot as of now? Until then it is up to each of us to speak HIS TRUTH as the HOLY SPIRIT has revealed it to us with much fear and trembling and with no regard to our physical body.

It was the call in the early church and is now,the same call to HIS people, to be set apart, what ever the time and place may be.

Do we hear the drum roll of this event even now as we speak and do we hear the call of that harlot to be being religiously tolerant of error? I do not believe it our call to say how long before the birth of this event. Have we given sin a watered down names recently. What group is guilty of giving those watered down names? Have we labeled true christians as Pharisees, politically motivated,and accused them of having a holier than thou attitude.

Is there anyone who have lived, since they were saved, such a holy enough life, as to be pleasing to the Lord, and if there be any boasting, who would that boasting be about? We should be able to boast and when we do, it only be in HIM. Do we have a need to examine ourselves to see if this want-to at least for holiness exists in ourselves and do we recognize it is HIS SPIRIT within us that gives us the want-to in an effort to live a more pleasing life to HIM? DO others see that through Jesus's blood we have been given a different want-to than we once had to make us a witness?

Are we more or less effective in reaching the lost with HIS gospel with eticing words of wisdom or just speaking from the heart of HIS WORD that is hidden therein from our want-to?

S
sscr01

I have demonstrated in my posts, "Daniel, Revelation & World History Reveal The Antichrist," and "Revelation 13:11 - Protestant America," that, the "Mother of harlots," will be the system, used by The Antichrist.

If they are not archived on this site, they can be found on many others, including, www.prophecytalk.com. (I use "Herald," on most sites.)

Peter, "lovingly," counseled Jesus, that, He did not need to go to the cross. Jesus looked at him, and said, "Get thee behind me, Satan!"

When James and John thought, that, they would follow (denominational?) precedent, they wanted to call fire down from heaven (as Elijah had done) upon the Samaritans. Jesus looked at them and said, "Ye know not what spirit you are of!"

These disciples were with Jesus 24/7, but, when they trusted in their own understanding, they were used by Satan, who was trying to thwart the plan of God.

When Jesus said, that, one of them would betray Him, none of them knew who it was. Judas arose from within the ranks.

The greatest deception, is that, which, is the closest to the Truth.

The fourth commandment, contains, the three components of a seal: #1 His name, #2 His authority, #3 His domain. The fourth commandment is the SEAL of the Covenant.

So, what is the MARK of the Beast?

The "Little Horn," (Antichrist) "...thinks to change times and laws." Dan 7:25.

The Sabbath was "changed" to Sunday, at the Council of Laodicea, 364 A.D. He, only, "thinks to change," because, no man/institution can over-rule our Creator and change His law.

The, only, commandment in the Covenant (Deut 4:13), dealing with time and law, is the fourth, concerning the seventh day Sabbath.

"Question.-Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?"

"Answer.- Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority." - Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.

"Of course the Catholic Church claims the change was her act...and the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters." Thomas, H.F., Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath.

"It's (Sunday's change for Saturday) the MARK of our authority to OVER-RULE God's law." Father Enright, C.S.S.R., President of Redemptorist College, History of the Sabbath, page 802.

"Sunday is our MARK of authority...The Church is ABOVE THE BIBLE, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923.

"The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No! by my DIVINE power, I ABOLISH THE SABBATH DAY, and COMMAND YOU to keep holy the first day of the week. And, lo! The entire civilized world, BOWS DOWN in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church." Father Enright.

(Emphasis added)

A mark in the forehead, symbolizes worship. A mark in the hand, symbolizes service.

Constantine instituted the first Sunday law in 321 A.D. Constantine, a Christian? He was a sun worshipper. He had his brother-in-law, wife and eldest son murdered. He had a vision of the cross of Mithra (sun god), and heard a voice saying, "In this sign, conquer..."

Jesus never used the state to further the Kingdom of God. He said, that, His kingdom was not of this world, or else His servants would fight. He taught us to fight spiritual warfare for the souls of men.

In Revelation 17, a woman rides the Beast. Vatican City, has long used states to further her agenda. She is a country unto herself. That is why, nations send ambassadors to the city.

Many Protestants in America, think, that, they can use the state to get this nation back to God. They are making the same error.

The Lord wins hearts, and the rest follows.

Pope John Paul 11, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell have called for re-instituting the Sunday, or, "Blue Laws." They are, still, on the books in 26 states. In Virginia, the third infraction meant death!

Does this sound far-fetched? How about a tree in the garden of Eden, determining the fate of all mankind?

Just as in the garden, it is a question of allegiance.

Is your allegiance to the "Mother of harlots"?

Or, is your allegiance to our Creator: Jesus (John 1:3), who sanctified and blessed the seventh day Sabbath at Creation.

He never changed, or, abolished it.

"Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: who forgiveth all thine iniquities (lawlessness); who healeth all thy diseases...As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed out transgressions (of the law) from us...TO SUCH AS KEEP HIS COVENANT, and to those that REMEMBER his commandments to do them." Ps 103.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15.

He is, only, Lord to those who obey Him.

S
sermonindex

Hi Moe

Your last post was very interesting.

I roughed out some comments, but they are too long for one message - folks get tired of reading!

You said:

If any would find ourselves in of a church body that all has the same mind and one accord these days, I don't think we will find it all in the same physical location and if we did we would see instant revival in that unity.
You are right, it won’t be in any one location. For those who are “called out of Babylon” are scattered here and there throughout the world. The fellowship is in the Spirit, independent of geography.

Jeremiah 3:14 (perhaps slightly out of context, but I believe it applies to the present matter too)

[i][color=990000] 14 Return, O faithless children, says the Lord;
for I am your master;
I will take you, [u]one from a city and two from a family[/u],
and I will bring you to Zion.
[/color][/i]

It’s like the “7,000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal”. Elijah didn’t know of their existence until the Lord told him. He thought he was the only faithful one left!

Jezebel ruled the land, because she ruled her husband the king.
Jezebel is a “type” of the “Harlot” of Revelation. There is no record that she committed adultery against her husband, but her [i]spiritual[/i] harlotry was on a massive scale.

Revelation 2:

[i][color=990000]18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her on a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her doings; 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.[/color][/i]

But even in that unfaithful church there were those who had not bowed down to false gods.

[i][color=990000]24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay upon you any other burden; 25 only hold fast what you have, until I come. 26 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’[/color][/i]

Always the Promise is to “He who overcomes”

I believe that the visible church – of whatever grouping or denomination - is going to be drawn into “Babylon” in the end.

In Him

Jeannette


S
sermonindex

When we look for the perfect church body of believers, as soon as we ourselves would be united there then would it be, at least through my eyes concerning myself. We should ask ourself the question if everyone in the body had the same heart as we did, what kind of church would that be?
Personally I wouldn’t ask that question. Why look for a “perfect church” when we are called to be “gathered together unto HIM”? All who are so gathered will be one in Christ, no matter what the flaws of the local church.

The tares grow amongst the wheat until the Harvest – let them grow.

[i][color=990000]“Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.” [/color][/i](Luke 9:60)

However if one is for us to serve in a local body effectively and earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the saints there will be a great need for each of us to honestly be able to say Amen and be in agreement to a large percentage of what is exactly taught (doctrine)within the local body (church)in Bible Study,in what comes from the mouth of the prophet (preacher) in the pulpit. If one is filled with HIS SPIRIT there will be an unction to expose error when discovered. There is need for that to be done in love and respect in which I need much improvement.
Perhaps so. But, being in such a church, where there are various errors, (though the basics are mostly still believed and taught) I found that it isn’t always quite like that. The Lord more often [i]stops[/i] me saying anything, and it’s only rarely that He allows me to speak against error.
It seems that my work in this church at this time is simply to “BE”.

Of course, that may not be the same in every case. And there is need of boldness to speak Truth where needed.

I would ask the question not a statement, but is the harlot spoken about in the scriptures, is it the body that could be described as a group that everyone just content to serve and be a member and a part of even when they disagree and can plainly see false teaching?
Personally I am not at all content with the status quo. It seems I’m there as His servant and as a “silent witness” most of the time. The Lord has shown me some things about the church and where it’s at, but usually He doesn’t give permission to do anything except “watch and pray”. It’s a kind of waiting game at the moment, apparently.

Question, Will we see the true harlot in full form when the UN controls the world and sets up the world church and it's doctrine?
Maybe

Have we only seen a small variation of the harlot as of now?
Yes

Until then it is up to each of us to speak HIS TRUTH as the HOLY SPIRIT has revealed it to us with much fear and trembling and with no regard to our physical body.
Yes, but some kinds of speech aren’t in words. Ezekiel has been mentioned, in another thread I think. Much of the time he was dumb, and acted out his prophecies. But sometimes the Lord allowed him to speak words as well.

I wonder if his silent sermons were even more effective at the time than his spoken ones!

I used to think that if the Lord showed me something re the local church, or for an individual, then I had to immediately speak it, but often we have to wait His time. Or sometimes the Lord reveals things so we might pray about them only.

Although we should also be ready to act and/or speak if He so directs.

It was the call in the early church and is now, the same call to HIS people, to be set apart, what ever the time and place may be.

Do we hear the drum roll of this event even now as we speak and do we hear the call of that harlot to be being religiously tolerant of error?

Yes.

Jeremiah 4:
[i][color=990000]19 My anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain!
Oh, the walls of my heart!
My heart is beating wildly;
I cannot keep silent;
for I hear the sound of the trumpet,
the alarm of war. 20 Disaster follows hard on disaster,
the whole land is laid waste.
Suddenly my tents are destroyed,
my curtains in a moment. 21 How long must I see the standard,
and hear the sound of the trumpet? 22 “For my people are foolish,
they know me not;
they are stupid children,
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil,
but how to do good they know not.”[/color]

In Him

Jeannette

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LoveHim wrote:
in my life, i am presently at the same institutionalized system that i grew up in. the difference is because of what God has done in me, i see what God's true church is (us believers) and what it is not (buildings, denominations, etc). this has given me freedom because i am not bound or limited by what "church" or demonination that i am a part of, but rather to seek to love, edify, rebuke, and encourage the true church. now fellowship is not limited to a day (sunday) or time (10:00 am) or place (in a building), but true fellowship in Christ happens all day and in any place where the believers are (in a house, park, store, on the street, etc).

since He has revealed to me what His church is, i am no longer bound by man's religion or man's systems. i don't care about programs, fads, and everything else that will be burned with the fire and found to be wood, hay, and stubble. i only care about Jesus the head, His church the body, and reaching others with the gospel of Christ. that is all that really matters.

in light of Christ, all other things just simply fade away.

AMEN!!!

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Personally I wouldn’t ask that question. Why look for a “perfect church” when we are called to be “gathered together unto HIM”? All who are so gathered will be one in Christ, no matter what the flaws of the local church.

The tares grow amongst the wheat until the Harvest – let them grow.

moe_mac wrote:
The point was in the post was for me to examine myself, not others. I think each one of us need to ask ourselves thus the point and evidently it was the femble attempt I made to convey that.
Of course, if I were in church leadership, then it would be ny responsibility to look at others and urge them through scripture with love if their need of restoration in the church body.
Yes, it is always best to wait until he gives us the words to speak. And yes at times, at least myself, I speak in the flesh ,although I strive not to.

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I just finished an A.W. Tozer marathon and he mentioned a few interesting points:

1. God is completely self-sufficient and cannot be any more or less fulfilled by any man, groups of men or our sects;

2. When a man or group fail to follow God He can and does move on to others that will;

3. God didn't send Pentacost to bring all believers together, He sent Pentacost after all believers were gathered in one place and were of one accord.

I'm not sure how this applies to this thread, but I think it does.

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cory wrote:
I just finished an A.W. Tozer marathon and he mentioned a few interesting points:

1. God is completely self-sufficient and cannot be any more or less fulfilled by any man, groups of men or our sects;

2. When a man or group fail to follow God He can and does move on to others that will;

3. God didn't send Pentacost to bring all believers together, He sent Pentacost after all believers were gathered in one place and were of one accord.

I'm not sure how this applies to this thread, but I think it does.

moe_mac
I haven't listened to Tozer and one would only have to look as far as Acts to see that one accord is a must for HIS SPIRIT to fall.

The problem with that is: getting everyone in one accord. In order to be in one accord, HIS ACCORD, we would have get past the things we want, do the things that HE wants and that requires doing things HIS way and not fitting the culture. There are any many things people aren't willing to give up or accept HIS WAYS because of not wanting to die to self and submit to HIS AUTHORITY, but continue to do it as we have always heard it and always done it.

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Jesus said, "And these signs SHALL follow them that believe; In my name SHALL they cast out devils; they SHALL speak with new tongues; They SHALL take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it SHALL not hurt them; they SHALL lay hands on the sick, and they SHALL recover." Mk 16:17,18.

Are you a believer?

Do you speak with new tongues, heal the sick, cast out demons?

Is this Scripture taught in your church?

If not, why? It is the Word of God.

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Jesus also said sell your possessions and give to the poor... I don't think the American church system is to concerned about what Jesus did or didn't say.

In Him - Jim

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rowdy2

Reply to all and thanks to you all for your comments
I would go to church in a building if members would confess that our Lord was raised up in three days and is our Heavenly Tabernacle. That my earthly tabernacle is dead and The Risen Glorified Christ the First Son is Lord of all in His Kingdom. Why would I continue to eat the husk in a church made with hands when I can eat the flesh of the Son of God and drink His Spirit in The Tabernacle not made with hands.
I see The Word (Christ Jesus) as living water whether natural man believes it or not. With out the Spirit of Truth it can not be distilled into wine and you can’t drink The Fruit of The Vine with Christ in His Kingdom unless you have a new heart and believe Christ has returned and praise God and ask Him Our Heavenly Father to give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
Are you still mourning or do you praise God for His Risen Glorified Son? Do you have Hope?
What is the reason for that hope? Thank you Father for not putting Christ Spirit into our old sinful bodies.


Matthew 9
15. And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
16. No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
17. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Eddie

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sscr01 wrote:
Jesus said, "And these signs SHALL follow them that believe; In my name SHALL they cast out devils; they SHALL speak with new tongues; They SHALL take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it SHALL not hurt them; they SHALL lay hands on the sick, and they SHALL recover."


moe_mac
If we took this verse and everything contained in it literally. Sunday morning the Pastors would have a rattle snack for each member and pass them out. Then he would a deadly poison in the communion cups and pass them out to show God's power. We know this don't happen and if it did would it be scriptural? All healing is divine healing and is from God. When we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord and totally healed. Can he heal us of any desease now in the physical, yes, if it HIS will and for His glory. When one is saved and indwellt with HIS SPIRIT devils will be cast out of them in HIS NAME. If they live a HOLY life and they should, it will effect others around them and more devils will be cast out as they are saved. At a new birth, a person becomes a new creation, they don't say the same things as did in the past. They speak with new tongues. Unknown tongues are also talked about in scripture, also other tongues. New tongues is new tongues. If it where the same as unknown and other tongues, then it would say that in that passage. With God nothing is impossible. We should pray for the sick, but we know that if the scripture being discussed actually meant what many quote, the church would have some 200+ year old people sitting in the pew. Many saved people haved been made whole and have inherited eternal life.

If this is not your interpretation, I not only welcome you too, but take each thing I said and correct me please if you can. God does many miraculous things still today. He is the very substance life and of everything and everyone. Without HIM we are nothing. Would you say salvation was the greatest gift? When he gave the early disciples the power to lay hands people and heal them in HIS NAME. They were hooping and hollowing at the power that was used through them. He said rejoice not about you can do this, but that your soul is saved from hell. Now when I'm sick, I pray. I ask for prayer from other believers. If I'm real sick I going to pray before I calll 911. As I said nothing is impossible with God. I speak with a new tongue also, but do not have a prayer language as you are saying. Not going to pick up a poison snake or drink any poison unless HE tells me to. He hasn't told me that yet.I don't see where he tells us that in HIS WORD, in the whole council of God.

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sscr01

Jesus said, that, these signs SHALL follow them that believe - not me.

Jesus bore our sickness and pain on the cross. Isa 53:4,5.

"When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed of devils: and he cast out the spirits with His Word, and healed ALL that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt 8:16,17.

I come from an extended family of six doctors and six nurses, but, Jesus has been my Healer, for, almost, forty years. My children, friends and I have many testimonies. I have healed the sick, cast out demons, and raised one dead man. Not by my might or power, but, by His Spirit.

"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." For a classic on divine healing, I suggest, that you read, Christ,The Healer, by F.F. Bosworth.

Unbelief is what keeps God's children from being healed.

I guess, that, I am just simple enough to take Him at His Word.

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I agree with everything Jesus said but we must discern what he said. I don't have to read any other book except HIS word to know he is the great physician and all healing is divine. I think some of these man made books may be much of a problem today as they are helpful to understand. I noticed you did not respond to what the scripture said to me as how I gave it. I am simple enough to take him at HIS WORD also but do you believe he meant pass out the snakes and drink poison on Sunday morning? How are you interpreting that part of the passage. Is it one part one way, one way and part another way? Did not want to get so blunt, but if you are going to give a rebuttal brother please stay on the same page and the might we both might get on the same line. Jesus is answer to all things. Just give where you disagree with what I understood and how and why and about the snakes and the poison. Jesus is a our healer, without HIM the white house dotors staff couldn't save you. None of us like to think about death, but you can't be healed any better than being absent from the body and present with the Lord and eternal life with no pain, no desease, no sorrow, no more death. Not saying he don't display HIS glory today in the physical also, but I don't believe you are telling me that as long as someone has enough faith they will be healed on earth forever, like a 200 year old maybe, healty as a horse. And if someone does get a disease and dies and they are saved, one of HIS children, the reason they died was because it becuase of a lack of faith. Is that what you are saying? No response will be ok. I really don't see how you can answer that.

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sscr01

Who are you to mock God's Word?

If Jesus delays His coming, we will all die, but, we don't have to die sick.

"Neither repented of their murders, nor of their SORCERIES, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." Rev 9:21

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy SORCERIES were all nations deceived."Rev 18:23

The word, "sorceries," is "Phamakeia," "Pharmakeus," "Pharmakon."

Pharmaceutical drugs are all poisons.

The word, "salvation," is defined as "healing, health and deliverance."

Jesus said, these signs SHALL follow them that BELIEVE..." Mk 16:17,18.

"And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs following." Mk 16:20.

If they don't follow you, then, you don't believe.

Jesus could not do many works in Nazareth, because, of their unbelief. Heb 3:12 says, that, unbelief comes out of an EVIL heart.

John said, "...he that believeth not God, hath made Him a liar." 1 John 5:10.

Jesus was beaten for our Healing. He died for our salvation - body, soul and spirit. Why don't you believe Him?

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Corey_H wrote:
I just finished an A.W. Tozer marathon and he mentioned a few interesting points:

1. God is completely self-sufficient and cannot be any more or less fulfilled by any man, groups of men or our sects;

2. When a man or group fail to follow God He can and does move on to others that will;

3. God didn't send Pentacost to bring all believers together, He sent Pentacost after all believers were gathered in one place and were of one accord.

I'm not sure how this applies to this thread, but I think it does.

Indeed it does, Brother. And not only to this thread!

I don't fully know what that means, but the heart cry that these points of Tozer's brought forth was, "May God have mercy on us all!"

In Him

Jeannette

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sscr01 wrote:
Who are you to mock God's Word?
Brother, this is uncalled for.

Whoever is correct or incorrect in their opinion that's no excuse for such personal attack.

[i][color=003333][font=Verdana]James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then [u]peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits[/u], without partiality, and without hypocrisy.[/font][/color][/i]


Blessings

Jeannette

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sscr01
"And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs following." Mk 16:20.

If they don't follow you, then, you don't believe.

moe_mac wrote:
You still haven't addressed the first part of the verse and my reply. If God had reason he can save us from anything anytime, he is able. You also you did not address what Jesus told the disciples about celebrating when they were given power to heal. If you want the reference here it is.
Luke 10:19
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Now were they later hurt and killed physically for the cause of Christ. Was Jesus lying to them about having them covered or was telling them the truth and was they healed he minute they physically died. They are in HIS hands now. I think of them when it talks of the 24 elders around the throne. 12 of them could be very well be first 12. What better hands to be in than HIS hands. He saved them just as HE promised. Look at all the truth, not just part of it.

And bare in mind this was to the first 12 disciples and they wrote the New Testament. Did Jesus give any of us that gift or authority to add to their writings. Do any of us have the same authority as they had.
You also did not address if that's true why we don't have 200 year olds on the pew. Total healing is to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. When you understand that you will be able to see scripture more clear and death not so negitively. Now I don't know how old Paul was when he was killed, or Peter, or and of the other 12, minus John who appeared to be the only one of the 12 that wasn't killed, but exiled to isle of Patmos and died of natural causes. Now was that lack of faith they had when they were killed. Did they forget to pray. Brother face the truth, the whole truth. Jesus is everything. There is not a maverick molecule in the universe. He has all power, we pray for sick, we have faith that nothing is impossible with God and we leave the rest to HIS wisdom. As I said my health is not good, and if I call the ambulance I will being praying long before I call 9-11. My faith in the Lord is not based on HIM keeping me on this earth forever. It would be great if I can make it until Jesus comes and I get raptured. From the grave or from the feet, it will be the same and just as glorious. We will all get to experience that, one way or another, except those who have not put their total trust In Jesus and HIS shed blood and by HIS Spirit and HIS power and HIS might they have become a new creation in HIM.

edit: one more verse to take into account:
1 Cor 15:19-21
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
KJV

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Lkid

amen brother.

Paul said that if there were any sick among you call the elders to anoint and lay hands on and pray for them. He did not say you neeed more faith. I believe though that there is a middle ground. We may lack the faith at times when God wishes to impart healing. Or a gift is not given because the one who could have been imparted with the gift was a weak in faith. This may be the case with many in the west. But Jesus did say that whatsoever we ask of the Father in His Name believing, we should receive. I agree it is up to a sovereign God to impart this gift of health or whatever it may be. His will be done.

We must pray without ceasing so that we may know God's will.

I'm leaving here in a few minutes to lead a study on Colossians. Oh, that WE may filled with knowledge of His will and all spiritual wisdom and understading, so that we may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in true knowledge of Him, strengthened with all power according to His glorious might....

God bless,

Lkid

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Lkid

I'm not sure God simply drops those who fail to follow Him. Does He not love His bride. Does He not wish for all to come to repentence. Those whom Gof foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son. I suppose those He moves on from are the truly unregenerate and impenetant. Those He did not predestine to this calling

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sscr01

Jesus said, "And these signs SHALL follow them that believe; In my name SHALL they cast out devils; they SHALL speak with new tongues; They SHALL take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it SHALL not hurt them; they SHALL lay hands on the sick, and they SHALL recover." Mk 16:17,18.

So, do you want to correct the Son of God?

If we live a long life, and die before He comes, or, are persecuted, that, is not the same as disease.

Where in the Scriptures, does it say, that, we will die of disease?

Jesus bore the stripes for our healing, just as He died for our sins.

If we believe, that, He bore our sicknesses and pains, just as He did our sins, we can walk in divine health.

When you interpret Scripture, by your own experience, you will fail every time.

"...God who quickeneth the dead, and CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE. (Abraham) Who against hope, believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN, So shall thy seed be.

He believed in God's Word and His promises.

And being not weak in faith, HE CONSIDERED NOT HIS OWN BODY now dead...neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: HE STAGGERED NOT AT THE PROMISE OF GOD THROUGH UNBELIEF; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being FULLY PERSUADED that, what he had promised, HE WAS ABLE ALSO TO PERFORM. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." Rom 4:17-22.

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sscr01 wrtote:
So, do you want to correct the Son of God?

moe_mac
I'm agreeing with HIM in everything he said. And you full well know by not responding to my post you can't comment on what I spoke in the scriptures because of teachings of men not of HIS.
God Bless

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sscr01

If you are, then, you will speak in new tongues, cast out demons, and heal the sick, as He said.

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That is what I said in an earlier post, but not in the manner you are stating. Evidently you have not read anything I wrote. Only when we are able to discuss things can we get to what HE says. If you had read my earlier post and commented on the the places you disagreed and why we could have Bible study, but I gave you much info and scripture to confirm what was written and you have ignored it. It you were really concerned I was wrong in the interpretation, then you would be doing more than quoting the same scripture over and over again, but would be building on precept upon precept would be have no trouble proving mine wrong but you have made no attempt.
God Bless

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sscr01
If you are, then, you will speak in new tongues, cast out demons, and heal the sick, as He said.

moe_mac
Before I saved every other word was a cuss word, That ceased immediately. I consumed much alcohol and have had none since and many other things I care not to mention. I have served in HIS church in the ways HE said to serve.I know there has been a demon cast out of me. I have been envolved in witnesses to others who have made professions of faith. Now that gets sticky. Paul said he planted and Apollos watered but God gives the increase. I would say demons were cast out of me and others and we have spoke with new tongues. It was not me but HIM. I have no way of knowing whether anything I said to anyone had any bearing on their profession. Too many people wanted to knotch their spiritual belts. And I just as Paul, Peter and all the rest of the saints are healed forever. Now I have experience times when people have prayed for me and I was spared by HIS hand. Does that mean there want be a time when HE won't call us home as HE did the first 12, I don't think so. I have seen miracles and have them happen in my life but you are missing the whole message in this passage I believe brother and if you read all of my post you will see it.
God Bless

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sscr01

I have studied divine healing, for, almost four decades. As for the will of God, we find His will in the Scriptures, alone.

He bore our sicknesses and pain, as well as our sin, and He cried, "It is finished!" He accomplished our total healing - body, soul and spirit.

"Jehovah-Rapha," means, "I am the Lord, thy Physician," or, "I am the Lord that healeth thee."

"...surely he hath borne our sicknesses and pains." Isa 53:4.

"He...healed ALL that were sick, that it might be fulfilled by Esais, the prophet, saying: Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt 8:16,17.

The leper said, "If thou wilt, Thou canst make me whole." Jesus said, "I WILL; be thou clean." Matt 8:2-4.

The word "soteria," which is the Greek word for salvation, implies deliverance, preservation, healing, health, and soundness.

The Greek word, "sozo," translated, "saved"; also means, "healed," "made sound," "made whole."

"He is the Saviour of the body." Eph 5:23.

"Who forgiveth ALL our iniquities, who healeth ALL our diseases." Ps 103:3.

Jesus said, "Therefore I say unto you whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them." Mk 11:24.

It is by faith, alone in His Word!

"Attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and HEALTH to all their flesh." Prov 4:20-22.

James 5:14 commands to "any sick" in the church, to ask for anointing and prayer with the promise, "the Lord shall raise him up."

God does not promise that we will never die, but says, "I will take sickness away from the midst of thee...the number of thy days I will fulfill." Ex 23:25,26.

Ps 107:20 says, "He sendeth His word and healeth them and delivereth them from their graves."

"Great multitudes followed Him and He healed them ALL." Matt 12:15,16.

"God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and power, who went about doing good, and healing ALL that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." Acts 10:38.

God says of fearing the Lord and departing from evil. "It shall be health (Hebrew - medicine) to thy navel and marrow (Hebrew - moistening) to thy bones." Prov 3:7,8.

"Beloved, I wish above all things, that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." 3 John 2

"He was manifested to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8.

"And Jesus went about...healing EVERY SICKNESS and EVERY DISEASE among the people." Matt 9:35.

"And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them ALL." Matt 12:15; Lu 6:18,19.

"...and as many as touched Him were made PERFECTLY WHOLE." Matt 14:36.

"And Jesus went forth and saw a great multitude, and was MOVED WITH COMPASSION toward them, and healed their sick." Matt 14:13,14.

Do we believe His Word, or don't we?

When God's people were sick, it was, either, a lack of faith, or, disobedience to Him.

We have lost our respect for the Word of God:

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." John 1

"All Scripture is God-breathed..." 2 Tim 3:16.

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sscr01
We have lost our respect for the Word of God.

(I do not know what you are referring to. Please be more specific.)
Do we believe His Word, or don't we?


moe_mac
We have to believe all of it. The whole council of God. It is really not about us but HIM.

Have you had anyone in your church that has had a disease lately. Were all of them healed? Have you had anyone pass away? Was it because of a lack of faith or sin. I have the utmost respect for HIS word when we look at it in the light as He gave it. Man does not have manufactor HIS power. His power is supreme.
All healing is divine healing. Even when we cut our hand but not bad enough to go to the doctor it heals because HE made our bodies that way. As I said I have seen miracles in my own life and others. A sickness or disease does not neccesarily mean sin or lack of faith. Remember the child that Jesus healed and the people asked had the parents committed sins and Jesus said the child was sick were HIS glory would be manifested.
I can tell you that through my own experience with sickness I have grown much closer to the Lord. Paul talked about HIS thorn and said Jesus I have asked you three times to remove this thorn. But he didn't until he called Paul home that I can find in scripture. He said my grace is sufficient.
I do not make light of the power of God. He made everything but God is not a genie in a bottle. If HE wanted, he could speak healing to all diseases in the world and everyone everywhere would be healed. We must have faith, without faith it is impossible to please God. And he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek HIM, but we need not think that our faith can superceed HIS will and get cocky, because he knows how to humble those who exalt themselves and he knows how to exalts those who humble themselves. As I said in the earlier post take all the scripture, don't just dwell on the ones you like. He will heal all of his childrens diseases, some temporarily and some permanantly when they go to heaven. Some he will leave as he did with Paul.
Did not mean to blow your theology out the window. Just giving you want happened after the disciples healed others by HIS name. And as I said you need to consider carefully that they had the authority to write HIS instructions in HIS WORD for us, which means they had gifts we don't.

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The Scripture refers to this Catholic/Protestant religious system, as the "Mother of harlots." Rev 17.

This unfortunately brothers and sisters is a horrible interpretation of Rev 17. It Speaks of Babylon, not the church systems. .

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sscr01
"And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs following." Mk 16:20.

If they don't follow you, then, you don't believe.

moe_mac wrote:
You still haven't addressed the first part of the verse and my reply. If God had reason he can save us from anything anytime, he is able. You also you did not address what Jesus told the disciples about celebrating when they were given power to heal. If you want the reference here it is.
Luke 10:19
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Now were they later hurt and killed physically for the cause of Christ. Was Jesus lying to them about having them covered or was telling them the truth and was they healed he minute they physically died. They are in HIS hands now. I think of them when it talks of the 24 elders around the throne. 12 of them could be very well be first 12. What better hands to be in than HIS hands. He saved them just as HE promised. Look at all the truth, not just part of it.

And bare in mind this was to the first 12 disciples and they wrote the New Testament. Did Jesus give any of us that gift or authority to add to their writings. Do any of us have the same authority as they had.
You also did not address if that's true why we don't have 200 year olds on the pew. Total healing is to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. When you understand that you will be able to see scripture more clear and death not so negitively. Now I don't know how old Paul was when he was killed, or Peter, or and of the other 12, minus John who appeared to be the only one of the 12 that wasn't killed, but exiled to isle of Patmos and died of natural causes. Now was that lack of faith they had when they were killed. Did they forget to pray. Brother face the truth, the whole truth. Jesus is everything. There is not a maverick molecule in the universe. He has all power, we pray for sick, we have faith that nothing is impossible with God and we leave the rest to HIS wisdom. As I said my health is not good, and if I call the ambulance I will being praying long before I call 9-11. My faith in the Lord is not based on HIM keeping me on this earth forever. It would be great if I can make it until Jesus comes and I get raptured. From the grave or from the feet, it will be the same and just as glorious. We will all get to experience that, one way or another, except those who have not put their total trust In Jesus and HIS shed blood and by HIS Spirit and HIS power and HIS might they have become a new creation in HIM. edit: then we will speak with new tongues and not say those things we used to say. I can tell you I am not building on any foundation or denomination but only speaking what HIS WORD says to me. I don't know any denomination in America that I see exactly everything in the same light as any denomination does. It is very dangerous when we build a denomination on any other foundation except HIS. I believe we can find a church that is close enough to HIS foundation to effectively serve HIM, but that don't mean we will agree with every brother and sister at that church. sscr01, brother if you really believe as you spoke to be truth, then keep on preaching. Just because I see things in a different light does not mean anything. What matters is HIS WORD. I have no hard feeling at anything you have said. I ask your forgiveness if I have offended you in any way. I have only spoke what I believe to be truth aand I certainly have not attempt to cheaping or weaken or make HIS power in less than what it is. A person couldn't do that if they wanted to. He remains the same regardless of anyones theology. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and my Lord and my King and also anyone else that will submit to HIS truth. I also feel compelled to speak HIS truth and if I be in error I pray HE will reveal it me.

S
sermonindex

edit:

better not said here too

S
sscr01

Paul's thorn was not a disease. In the Old Testament, a "thorn in the flesh," was someone who opposed you.

Paul had great opposition at Corinth.

Again, you are interpreting Scripture, through your experience. This is a mistake.

Rather, why not take God at His Word, and believe Him to heal you?

I have seen Him do many miracles and healings, by believing His Word.

L
Lkid

how then are the unsaved healed of anything? They have no faith in God yet they are healed. Also your theory tells me that our physical condition is a reflection of our faith. The Spirit says the body counts for nothing. Did Job lack faith? Was he walking in unrepentent sin?

You, who has never seen the personal lives and walks of christians the world over, are judging them as lacking faith or are walking in sin. Jesus' glory is not always revealed in the healing, but in the humility of the person who says "Lord, Your will be done in me, whatever the price". Sometimes Jesus allows a person to suffer to learn perserverence. As with Job he may allow it to happen so that a man may be tested and proven.

Have you been around the sick longer than to tell them they need more faith or to confess their hidden sin. Sounds like Jobs "friends" to me. Jesus is our Comforter. If we are all well, why would we need a Comforter?

L
Lkid

i edited my last post. If anyone saw the judgemental words i put in it i'm sorry for them. If you did or didn't, sscr01, i'm sorry and ask your forgiveness, I must show more self control and gentleness and love, being filled with the Spirit, not mans anger, just as i preach.
forgive me please.

S
sermonindex

sscr01 wrote:
Paul had great opposition at Corinth.
Again, you are interpreting Scripture, through your experience. This is a mistake.
Rather, why not take God at His Word, and believe Him to heal you?
I have seen Him do many miracles and healings, by believing His Word.

moe_mac wrote:
If you had of read my last post you would have seen I have already stated I have seen many miracles too. God has already healed me, HE did that when the SPIRIT drew me through HIS Word to confession and repentance and being indwelled with HIS SPIRIT. I also have grown in HIS SPIRIT and WORD (The Baptism some call it). I also have been water baptized an outward expression of an inward change. Buried with HIM in baptism, raised again in newness of life. My repentance and confession is an on going and continual effort through the unction of the HOLY SPIRIT. If God choses to give me physical healing in the flesh now, I have no doubt THAT He is able and I have the faith THAT HE IS ABLE and I do ask and I also ask for prayer from others. I believe all of HIS WORD. I just try and see it in the context that it is. If God never did anything, but send HIS son to die for me and raise HIM again, so I could to go to heaven and miss hell and have a changed life and fellowship with HIM, that would be enough and much more than any of us deserve, it's called grace. And he did not give us what we do deserve because our sins crucified Jesus, that's called mercy. Glory to HIS NAME. I will accept any blessings THAT He wishes to bestow upon me with thanksgiving or for my brothers and sisters and they have been many I have experienced. When we pray, we have a pattern , Not our will but yours Lord.

T
theopenlife

Paul told Timothy to "take some wine" for his stomach.

In this instance wine was used as a pharmaceutical drug. Many "drugs" are made strictly from natural products. Are these wrong? Of course not, or else we must say that food is itself a drug for the use of curing hunger pains, citrus fruits prevent and cure scurvy, and nothing beneficial ought to be used, despite that it was given by God.

It is not wrong to use the good things God has given us. It is wrong to use them to oppose God's will. If I take a medication to treat sickness, I pray "Thy will be done" regardless of the medicine.

I believe that the signs of healing, casting out demons, and not succumbing to poisons were and are signs which accompany the BODY of believers, though not necessarily each or every believer. There were no snakes in Ireland for hundreds of years, so were there no Christians there? If a man repents and believes and dies that night, was his conversion false because he did not "prove it" by healing someone?

With love and concern I tell you that I am frightened for your sake by your perception of God and His word.

1 Corinthians 12:28-30

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Your brother,

S
sermonindex

If you are, then, you will speak in new tongues, cast out demons, and heal the sick, as He said.

Many people who have done all of these things will spend eternity in hell, many who did not do all of them will dwell in glory for eternity.

PS, I have been blessed to see and take part in the gifts in operation and we DO need an increased faith in America, its just some of the comments to support this are beyond scripture and out of line. David Brainerd died young of disease, so did many other Godly men.

In Christ - Jim

S
sermonindex

theopenknife wrote
Paul told Timothy to "take some wine" for his stomach.

In this instance wine was used as a pharmaceutical drug. Many "drugs" are made strictly from natural products. Are these wrong? Of course not, or else we must say that food is itself a drug for the use of curing hunger pains, citrus fruits prevent and cure scurvy, and nothing beneficial ought to be used, despite that it was given by God.
It is not wrong to use the good things God has given us. It is wrong to use them to oppose God's will. If I take a medication to treat sickness, I pray "Thy will be done" regardless of the medicine.


moe_mac clarification:

After you posted this I felt need to clarify something I posted on alcohol I stated I had not drank any alcohol since I was saved but I have taken cough medicine with alcohol and I'm sure and maybe other medications as well but no camoed recreational hot tooty such as a fifth of Jack Daniels and a small 7-up or comsumed any alcohol for pleasures for a season. That was what I intended to post about alcohol since I was saved. I'm sure the a quart of Jack Daniels and a small 7-up wasn't what Paul was telling Timothy would be ok for the stomachs sake. Not even positive he was referring to alcohol.

S
sermonindex


moe_mac wrote:
Personally I wouldn’t ask that question. Why look for a “perfect church” when we are called to be “gathered together unto HIM”? All who are so gathered will be one in Christ, no matter what the flaws of the local church.

The tares grow amongst the wheat until the Harvest – let them grow.

moe_mac wrote:
The point was in the post was for me to examine myself, not others. I think each one of us need to ask ourselves thus the point and evidently it was the femble attempt I made to convey that.
Of course, if I were in church leadership, then it would be ny responsibility to look at others and urge them through scripture with love if their need of restoration in the church body.
Yes, it is always best to wait until he gives us the words to speak. And yes at times, at least myself, I speak in the flesh ,although I strive not to.

Don't we all "at times...speak in the flesh"!!! :-(

I missed this post the first time around, but it deserves an acknowledgment :-)

In fact it's only these last week maybe that I've begun to learn, [i]really[/i] learn for the first time, to post (mostly) what it seems the Lord wants me to and not just for the sake of it!

The Lord seems to have used being on SI to deal with my argumentative streak! Like a dog with a bone that won't give it up even when its Master says "Give!" 8-)

Blessings

Jeannette

PS, you can indent the things someone else said by typing "

" at the start of a quote and
at the end, only in lower case. Same with underline, italic or whatever. For example, underline is [U]...and ...[/U] (again lower case)

Or you can use the part above the Reply box. you can change the colour, put Bold, quote or whatever you want.

The only thing is that when you press ADD it always goes to the end of what you are typing so you may need to cut and paste to the right place.

Only suggested you do that because writing "Moe said" and "...said" every time is still sometimes confusing to know who said what. YOU might find it easier as well.

Hope you don't mind the suggestion...

S
sermonindex

Edit, don't know how two copies of the same post came up!

S
sermonindex

No THREE copies of the same post!!! What's going on?

"In the mouth of [i]three[/i] witnesses"????? :-? :lol:

S
sermonindex


theopenlife wrote:
Paul told Timothy to "take some wine" for his stomach.

In this instance wine was used as a pharmaceutical drug. Many "drugs" are made strictly from natural products. Are these wrong? Of course not, or else we must say that food is itself a drug for the use of curing hunger pains, citrus fruits prevent and cure scurvy, and nothing beneficial ought to be used, despite that it was given by God.

It is not wrong to use the good things God has given us. It is wrong to use them to oppose God's will. If I take a medication to treat sickness, I pray "Thy will be done" regardless of the medicine.

I believe that the signs of healing, casting out demons, and not succumbing to poisons were and are signs which accompany the BODY of believers, though not necessarily each or every believer. There were no snakes in Ireland for hundreds of years, so were there no Christians there? If a man repents and believes and dies that night, was his conversion false because he did not "prove it" by healing someone?

With love and concern I tell you that I am frightened for your sake by your perception of God and His word.

1 Corinthians 12:28-30

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Your brother,

Hi Michael

Thank you for this post.

I hope it won't prove a distraction, but couldn't resist giving some examples of drugs (off the top of my head - there are many many more). The evil in drugs isn't the products themselves but the occult mumbo-jumbo that goes on with the use of some "alternative medicines".

God has provided substances for our healing in nature. Since the Fall we have often needed them, and should not despise them:

[u]Made from plants and micro organisms[/u]
asprin (pain and fever relief),

atropine (for eye troubles I think),

digitalis (heart trouble),

blue mould (Penicillin fungus, antibiotic),

Botox and similar (As well as the cosmetic use, it apparently helps in some conditions of tremors or rigidity - such as in cerebral palsy -it comes from food poisoning bacteria - used in tiny doses of course!)

ergotamine (for migraine or to control some types of haemorrhage - from a poisonous fungus that grows on grain)

[u]Made from mineral clay[/u]
kaolin (for stomach upsets)

[u]Made from animals[/u]
hirudin and similar drugs (clot-busting, from leeches)

[u]Live animals[/u]
leeches (to reduce severe bruising or provide temporary "circulation" in some cases, preventing blood stagnating)

maggots (to eat dead, gangrenous tissue - can save a person's life!) Yeuch! :-P

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

I said:
leeches (to reduce severe bruising or provide temporary "circulation" in some cases, preventing blood stagnating)
You have to watch the varmints apparently. If not contained in the place they're suppose to be they tend to go straight for the jugular - literally (Proverbs 30:15) :-P

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

Littlegift thanks for the tip. I have had in the past some problem with the bold, italic and also such special characters in my post. I need to experment with this for a while and find out where I'm messing up and this info you gave me should be helpful. Thank you again for the tip.

S
sscr01

Jesus said, "These signs SHALL follow them that believe..."

The problem is, the unbelief in the church, just as Jesus COULD NOT do many works in Nazareth, because of unbelief.

I guess His Word is not enough.

S
sermonindex


by sscr01 on 2007/8/15 19:05:38
[i][size=medium]Jesus said, "These signs SHALL follow them that believe..."[/size][/i]

moe_mac

John 20:28-31

28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


[color=0000FF]But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ[/color]

S
sermonindex

Job's friends told him that he was suffering because he must have committed a terrible sin.

Had he?

Who was God angry with, Job or his friends?

Jeannette

L
Lkid

by LittleGift on 2007/8/16 0:52:08

amen sister

S
sscr01

But, THE LORD HEALED JOB. His affliction was, only temporary, that, God might be glorified.

In the Greek, 2 Tim 3:16, says, "All Scripture is God-breathed..."

We are born-again by the Word of God. Ja 1:18.

All Creation is upheld by the Word of God:

"God...Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of his person, and UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER..." Heb 1:1-3.

Jesus said, these signs SHALL follow them that believe - speaking in new tongues, healing the sick, casting out demons...

If these signs do not follow you, it is because YOU DO NOT BELIEVE HIS WORD...let's stop making excuses, and Pontificating. God is not impressed.

"...he that believeth not God, hath made Him a liar." 1 John 5:10

"Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen." Heb 11:1

And how does faith come?

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Ro 10:17.

"Even so, faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Ja 2:17.

If you read the Book of Acts, the disciples were persecuted over and over again, because of the miracles. Satan hates the demonstration of God's power.

When the Lord uses us to heal, cast out demons, raise the dead, He is glorified. His power over all of Creation is demonstrated. He reveals Himself as our Creator, before all men.

Again, I, highly, recommend the book: Christ,The Healer, by F.F. Bosworth.

H
hulsey

by sscr01 on 2007/8/15 19:05:38

Jesus said, "These signs SHALL follow them that believe..."

The problem is, the unbelief in the church, just as Jesus COULD NOT do many works in Nazareth, because of unbelief.

The passage in Mark that you are referring to does not imply that Jesus was [i]prevented[/i] from performing any miracles. He actually did perform a few as if to prove this point.

The issues was not Jesus' ability to work miracles; rather, it was His identity. They already knew of the signs He had performed in other towns yet there was no question in their minds that He could not be the Christ. And since the miracles that Jesus worked were signs pointing to Him as Israel's long awaited Messiah, this would have been pointless and fruitless. Therefore He worked no miracles.

Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey

S
sermonindex


sscr01 wrote:
But, THE LORD HEALED JOB. His affliction was, only temporary, that, God might be glorified.

moe_mac wrote:We had a discussion a couple of days ago about physical healing and Brother there is no doubt I most definately do desire physical healing. I have faith God is able to give that physical healing. Not only do I desire the healing and have the faith he can, but I have family members that also desire my phyical healing that have that same faith. I have requested prayers from many of christian friends and church members over the last few years. Just because I haven't been fully healed and continue to have some serious physical lung problems as we speak, that does not mean that God is not in control and HE sustains me at this very moment. If HE was ready for me, I would not be typing this post as we speak and I give HIM all the GLORY and thanks for that also. I appreciate your faithfulness and your sincere words on physical healing and your also your concern for me. I ask for your prayers for my physical healing. If you only knew the change in my life, due to HIS SPIRIT living within me, you would see already see HIS glory. God has been so merciful to me and has blessed me above all measure. It really seems He is not ready for me yet, I say that because I really feel HE has called me in a new task I have never did before and to be a servant to speak HIS WORD in some fashion. Many things I don't understand about the present time and circumstances. All I know to do is "be still and know that is Lord". I ask for your prayers and also ask you to request to your local church body to life me up in prayers for my physical healing and also ask for HIM to give me the strenth and the annointing in doing whatever HE has called me to do. I also have asked for all the SI family to lift me up in prayer. My name is Gary.
God Bless

S
sermonindex

[moe said:

Jesus is everything. There is not a maverick molecule in the universe. He has all power, we pray for sick, we have faith that nothing is impossible with God and we leave the rest to HIS wisdom. As I said my health is not good, and if I call the ambulance I will being praying long before I call 9-11. My faith in the Lord is not based on HIM keeping me on this earth forever. It would be great if I can make it until Jesus comes and I get raptured. From the grave or from the feet, it will be the same and just as glorious.
Thankyou for this and other really great comments. And especially for your graciousness under provocation!

Something that came to mind (posted before on another thread some time ago) is the question why Elijah and Elisha had such different endings to their earthly lives.

If all should be healed, why didn't Elisha get taken up to heaven as Elijah did? Why did he have to die of a long, and probably agonising illness?

Yet he had such spiritual anointing that [b]his dead bones brought someone else back to life!!![/b]

I don't see how its possible to square that with a simplistic theology of healing!

Blessings

Jeannette

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