Jesus, First of First Fruits

In replying to many posts I have noticed the inability of many to make good distinctions concerning the nature[s] and mission[s] of Christ with regards to the purposes of the Father that are summed up in the Man, Jesus. From His Divine conception to His Glorification, much happened inbetween for an example not much recognized as possible for the ordinary man who confesses Him as Savior. After all, it is declared, 'He was God and we can't be expected to follow suit'.

What are your thoughts on this? Is it true or not that we can't be what He prayed we might be, i.e, in union with Him and the Father? [Jn17]. If it is true that we can be, what provision, made by Him, is there for us that we might be?

[b][i]If all will take the time to read this it will bring fresh implication to our understanding of what is meant by Jesus being the "First of First Fruits".[/b][/i]

[b]What the Cross Realizes for God.[/b]

\t"IN THE FIRST eight chapters of Romans, two aspects of salvation are presented—justification by the Blood and deliverance through the Cross. This is a most important distinction. For, alas, many believers have wandered in defeat for many years, because they do not know or reckon on the union with Christ in His death on the Cross.

While we must be careful to recognize that Christ’s finished work at Calvary is one complete work from God’s standpoint, yet it is finished in the individual believer only as he reckons on its efficacy and allows the truth to become operative in his life. Let us see how this works.

[b]IN ADAM OR IN CHRIST[/b]

God deals with the human race through two representative men—Adam and Christ. A simple illustration will demonstrate the principle involved. By planting one kernel of corn, harvesting every kernel, and replanting year after year without destroying or using any of the corn; it would be possible to produce so much corn within twenty years that there would be no room for human life on the earth. Every grain of corn would have its beginning in the first tiny kernel.

\tThis is what Paul speaks of in Romans 5:12-21 when he explains that we all had our beginning in the first Adam. Through him sin and death have come upon the human race. But through Christ comes the new creation wherein is righteousness—His righteousness.

Another illustration of this truth is found in Hebrews where the writer shows how Levi was in Abraham’s loins when he paid tithes to Melchizedek. As the father of a family, Abraham is seen to include his whole family within himself in making his offering; he included with himself all his seed.

\tSo it is that God sees two family trees: Adam’s family and Christ’s family. If our source of life is to change, it becomes evident that above all, one thing must happen. We must change families. Since we are born into Adam’s family, how can we get out? How can we become disentangled from the wretchedness of our inheritance through him? There is only one way to be freed. That is through death. By union with Christ—”the last Adam “—in His death, God sets us free from the tyrants who reign over Adam and his posterity.

\tGod not only speaks of the first and last Adam, but also of the first and second man. The realization that there would never be another Adam brought to me a wonderful unveiling of truth. When the Lord Jesus was crucified on the Cross, He was nailed there and laid in the tomb as “the last Adam.” All that was in the first Adam was gathered up and done away in Him. In God’s reckoning, Adam was left in the grave. We were included there."

[b]My thought:[/b] [i]Interesting here is that all of mankind went into the grave with Jesus. Who comes out are the ones who embrace His salvation. “Whosoever will…”[/i]

\tBy Jesus’ death the old race was completely wiped out. Do you see it? There will never be another Adam. When Christ, as “the last Adam,” had moved into death, He had carried a whole family into the grave, and over it God had pronounced: The End! But Christ, as “the second Man, “brought forth a new race by His resurrection.

\t“The first man is of the earth earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.... And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (1 Cor. 15:47-49). Now by one master stroke God has provided death to the old and the earthy. But He has provided life through the second Man, the Lord Jesus, who became the life-source of another new, heavenly creation. Through death, burial, and resurrection, we pass from the old family tree into a new family tree. We are no longer “in Adam”, but are now “in Christ”

\tIn this new position God considers us beyond the claims of old tyrants and brings us under His new government. What God counts as true of our position, we must appropriate as true in our life and walk. What a day it is when we recognize all that He designed to accomplish through-the Cross. In it God has liberated Adam’s race from four reigning tyrants— death, sin, the law, and the flesh. Paul gives us this bird’s-eye view in the middle chapters of Romans:

[b]• Chapter 5: Freedom from sin’s penalty—death
• Chapter 6: Freedom from sin’s tyranny—bondage
• Chapter 7: Freedom from sin’s strength—the law
• Chapter 8: Freedom from sin’s presence—the flesh[/b]

The redemption of the body, according to Roman 8, releases us finally from sin’s presence, which takes place at the second coming of the Lord.

\tNevertheless, Paul emphasizes that being moved positionally from Adam into Christ is more, “much more,” than having a new family position. In Adam we had received all that was of Adam as the life-source. Now, in Christ, we are to receive everything that is of Christ—our new Life-source. God intends this new life to be more than a position or a crisis experience. It is to be a new way of living—a new purpose for existence. Thank God, the hour has come when He is making His manner and purpose of life effectual in more of His children than ever before. But just here men so often take a detour and miss the key which will surely open the way of life unto God."

[b]THE IMPORTANT KEY[/b]

\tMany times in the past forty years of ministering in Bible conferences, folk have confessed to me, “We have tried to make the truth of identification with Christ in death and resurrection real in our lives. Yet in spite of all our knowing, reckoning and yielding, it hasn’t seemed to bring reality. It has not brought the victory and blessing which we sought.”

\tAs I listen the problem becomes evident. Their very words reveal it. Without realizing the truth, these people are far more concerned for themselves than for Him. They are far more alive to what they want God to do for them, than what they might become unto Him, if they could, they would use God and the work of the Cross for their own ends. Here is the source of their trouble!
The Cross is not the threshold to selfish attainment, but a terminal to selfishness. Many would use it for themselves, but God has designed that it should bring men wholly unto Him.

\tEven among those who continually attend deeper life conferences and retreats, we find many who have fallen victim of this vicious snare. After years and years of reckoning on more knowledge and deeper teaching, they are still camping around their old self-center— getting all God has for me, possessing all my possessions appropriating all my inheritance in Christ.

\tOh! May God strip the veneer and shatter every attempt at using the Cross, instead of dying on the Cross. Hidden behind most begging and pleading for God to give victory is the secret concern for ourselves—not Himself. God will not condone this self centeredness. How many years I taught the truths of Romans six and counseled with those who were in defeat and bondage before I found this key—In His death I am to become “alive unto God!” As long as a believer’s primary concern is to get victory or deliverance for himself; subtlety it means that he continues to live unto self. Four times in four verses in Romans six, God emphasizes that the key is living unto God:

[b]• V. 10— “... liveth unto God”
• V. 11— “... alive unto God.”
• V. 13— “... yield yourselves unto God.”
• V. 13— ... as instruments unto God.[/b]

\tWhat does God intend this to mean in actual practice? Simply that the primary thing He will realize through the Cross is to change man’s old center and purpose of living and bring him unto Himself and His ultimate intention. Here is a Bible principle—when we seek Him first, then all these things will be added. The very moment one becomes alive unto God, the door has opened for Him to accomplish victory and full deliverance.

[b]TWO FAMILIES AND TWO TREES[/b]

\tOn the blackboard we have pictured the two families and the corresponding trees. One is the family “in Adam,” and the other is the family “in Christ” All who have their source in the life of Adam have followed in his selfish way by living unto their own purpose and plans. Now through the Cross, God has laid the axe to the root of the old family tree, in order that He might move man into a new family, and live unto God. Such a life is from a new source.

\tOne glance at our modern emphasis would teach us that Satan’s methods have not changed one whit since the Garden. He is still offering the same substitute for the tree of life. Today it is a modem cross in place of the old rugged Cross. In an earlier book (now out of print) we quoted A. W. Tozer:

\t“The new cross says “Come and get.” And a selfish human would be entirely contrary to his own nature if he refused. Of course, he will use the Cross for his own benefits. Whereas the old rugged Cross says, “Come and give,” and for the moment entirely ignores anything that the individual shall receive, save a baptism into death. And why does the old Cross demand so much? Simply because from the beginning God has only intended that this Christian life shall be based on this one principle: The new life is lived not unto self, but unto God (2 Cor. 5:14).

\tWhereas the old Cross was meant by God to be the symbol of death and detachment from the old Adam life, this new substitute cross does not intend to slay the sinner, but just redirect him. It gears him into a cleaner, jollier way of living and saves his self-center and ambition. To the self- assertive it says: “Come and assert yourself for Christ.” To the religious egotist it says: “Come and do your boasting in the Lord.” To the thrill seeker it says: “Come and enjoy the thrill of Christian fellowship.” The modern message is slanted in the direction of the current vogue, thereby catering to human taste and reasoning.

\tThe old Cross would have no truck with the world. For Adam’s proud flesh it meant the end of the journey. It carried into effect the sentence imposed by the law of Sinai. The new cross is not opposed to the human race; rather, it is a friendly pal, and if understood aright, it is the source of oceans of good clean fun and innocent enjoyment. It lets Adam live without interference. His life motivation is unchanged; he still lives for his own pleasure, only now he takes delight in singing choruses and watching religious movies instead of singing bawdy songs and drinking hard liquor. The accent is still on enjoyment, though the fun is now on a higher plane morally, if not intellectually.”

\tIf this was true forty years ago [1943] when it was first written, how much more it is true today. One need only watch the converts of this “new cross” to realize that they have never had a changed center through union with Jesus in death on the old rugged Cross. But what is more alarming is that even our deeper life conferences have become victims (unconsciously, I trust) of this new philosophy and technique. To be sure the “new cross” approach has become popular because it has slipped in all unannounced and undetected. On the surface it appears to use the vocabulary of the old rugged Cross. Yet the likenesses are superficial while the differences are fundamental. The “new cross” offers a living unto self. The old Cross points to the heavenly way of living unto God.

[b]THE HOLY SPIRIT MUST REVEAL[/b]

\tI shall never forget one Sunday night several years ago when we were speaking about these two family trees. In using the blackboard, I had spoken from Romans 11 using God’s description of how the Gentiles of the wild olive tree were grafted into the good olive tree so that they might become partakers of a new life from the good tree, Of course I showed how this portion of Scripture directly applied to God’s cutting Israel off and grafting in the Gentiles; yet I showed how the principle applies to God’s cutting us off from the old family of Adam and, through death, moving us into Christ. In Him we have a new root, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

\tHow often the Holy Spirit accomplishes more in one instant of revelation than in years of preaching or teaching. It was so that night. Suddenly the dear pastor’s wife stood to her feet and walked to the front. Tears coursed down her cheeks as she told how God had been speaking to her for days about living from the old Adamic source and living under the bondage of the old Adamic life.

\tThen she explained, “God could never have spoken more directly to me about my wild-olive living.” Turning to me she said, “Others knew, but you didn’t. My first name is Olive. And these people know all too well how much of my life has been from the source of the old, wild Olive.” During five weeks of ministry in that church the Holy Spirit graciously liberated many who had been living from the “old family tree.” Now by a real union in death and resurrection, they moved into a “new family,” living a purposeful life unto God.

\tIn God’s planning then, the Cross and the crucified One have become the gateway to life. Apart from this gateway, there can be no movement on the highway of realizing God’s purpose. While we are neither unmindful of the pit from whence we have been digged nor the Rock to which we have come, we do not linger in preoccupation with these. We move ever forward to realize the purpose of sonship for which we have been called. We shall always sing about the precious blood, glory in the cross, and exult in His life, but what previously have been crises will now become a walk forward and upward in fulfilling His ultimate intention. This is truly life—a new kind of life in a wholly different sphere. Death has yielded its throne to the higher law of love; the flesh has yielded its throne to the Spirit. All this is what the Cross has realized for God."

*Excerpted from DeVern Fromke's book "THe Ultimate Intention".[copyrighted 1963]\t

If the Man Jesus was the "First of First Fruits"; the one who now rules and reigns in a Glorified Human body, where does that place one if they are intstructed to follow in His Steps? What #fruit would we place ourselves and how is it that we are to be a fruit at all? God ordains it but how is it to be accomplished in/of us?

And to add to the below, this from Chambers:

The ministry of the unnoticed

Blessed are the poor in spirit. Matthew 5:3.

The New Testament notices things which from our standards do not sem to count. “Blessed are the poor in spirit,” literally— Blessed are the paupers—an exceedingly commonplace thing! The preaching of to-day is apt to emphasize strength of will, beauty of character—the things that are easily noticed. The phrase we hear so often, ‘Decide for Christ,’ is an emphasis on something Our Lord never trusted. He never asks us to decide for Him, but to yield to Him, a very different thing. At the basis of Jesus Christ’s Kingdom is the unaffected loveliness of the commonplace. The thing I am blessed in is my poverty. If I know I have no strength of will, no nobility of disposition, then Jesus says—Blessed are you, because it is through this poverty that I enter His Kingdom. I cannot enter His Kingdom as a good man or woman, I can only enter it as a complete pauper.
The true character of the loveliness that tells for God is always unconscious. Conscious influence is priggish and un-Christian. If I say, ‘I wonder if I am of any use,’ I instantly lose the bloom of the touch of the Lord. “He that believeth in Me, out of him shall flow rivers of living water.” If I examine the outflow, I lose the touch of the Lord.
Which are the people who have influenced us most? Not the ones who thought they did, but those who had not the remotest notion that they were influencing us. In the Christian life the implicit is never conscious; if it is conscious, it ceases to have this unaffected loveliness which is the characteristic of the touch of Jesus. We always know when Jesus is at work because He produces in the commonplace something that is inspiring.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. August 21

Great piece, crssck. A hardy "Amen" to what the man said.....And your 'interspersed' scripture.

Think for a moment that Adam was NOT divine and was to be groomed for it by moral choices given him until God could say to him, "Well done, Be transfigured into what I have purposed for you from the beginning".

Man had to wait 4g yrs for the man Jesus, the last Adam, to do what the first Adam would not do; place the interest of God before all else, the way of the Cross.

That message of the “Way of the Cross” IS the gospel. For the New Born in Him, God will continually bring into circumstances to make us prove whether we will work out with determined concentration what He has worked in. This approach to Himself was designed by God from His beginning with Lucifer. Lucifer failed.

Adam was to enter into it as the means, by a series of moral choices, to become a divine-son, one formed out of the red clay. He failed. There was no divine life in either of the two lives at the outset of their existence.

After Adam's failure, mankind had to wait 4g yrs for another man to come on the scene who wouldn't. Jesus revealed what the "Way of the cross" was meant to accomplish in us, i.e., the means to accomplish a Transfiguration IN/UPON man for the Father, purposed in Himself.

One thing that needs be remembered is before sin entered, the "Way of the Cross" was accessable. It can only be participated in by *sinless beings. After sin came the "Way" it was closed off making the "[b][u]Work[/u] of the Cross[/b]" necessary for restoring man's priviledge of "son-ship, heir-ship and throne-ship". When man views it as such he will see it as the "Pearl of Great Price", the "Treasure in the field". This revelation is given upon the new birth experience which does not necessarily happen at a confession of Christ. We may accept Christ, though that is never taught in the Bible as a means of securing the revelation of Him. With this understanding can be seen "Election" as in, He selects, He chooses, those to whom He will reveal Himself. Sanctification means a radical and absolute identification with Jesus until the springs of His life are the springs of my/your life. This is the process of one who enters when entering the "Way of the Cross".

That the verse can make sense if seen in the light of the "Way of the Cross". Jesus wants us to face the life of our time in the power of the Holy Ghost. *Sinless participation can only be along that line, His.

[i]*"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."[/i] 1 John 3:9 (KJV)

Are we going to do it or are we going to keep preaching nothing but redemption to the same people every Sunday? --- and on this forum?

Paul is always tremendously practical, he comes right down to where we live, he says we must work out the salvation God has worked in. "All power is given unto Me", said Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit’s presence we can do those things which please God—are we doing them? Are we being conformed to His Image? By the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit we can bring every thought and imagination into captivity to the obedience of Christ and can keep this body the chaste temple of the Holy Ghost —are we doing it? By the power of the Holy Spirit we can keep our communications with other people the exact expression of what God is working in us—are we doing it? The proof that we have a healthy vigorous faith is that we are expressing it in our lives, and bearing testimony with our lips as to how it came about.

"The life of Jesus from Bethlehem onwards is a picture of the sanctified life, and anything that would make our souls stagnate produces a distortion."

Enter the pseudo center of the gospel, "Redemption". It has accomplished much in the Satanic purpose of getting man to fail in his calling; in causing man to embrace the minor instead of the Major in th emessage of Jesus Christ. Let me be clear: Redemption is the "work of the Cross" only Jesus could perform. Without it, the "way of the Cross" would remain inaccessible. However, He never meant for us to set up roadside stands and have "pep rallies", stopping everyone to tell them of how wonderful this Great man was who showed us the way back to God and all that He was going to do FOR US if we can just "hang in there". That was NOT the intent of Christ coming in Bodily form!

This from Chambers that says much:

"Jesus Christ is the Captain of our faith; He has gained the victory, consequently for us Satan is a conquered foe. When we are sanctified and have become His brethren we are put, not in the place of the first Adam, but in the place of the last Adam, where we live by the power and might of the [b]*faith [u]of[/u] the Son of God.[/b] We have to get rid of the idea that because Jesus was God He could not be tempted. Almighty God cannot be tempted, but in Jesus Christ we deal with God as man, a unique Being—God-Man. It was as Son of Man that “He fought the battle, and proved the possibility of victory.” After His Baptism, Satan, by the direct permission of the Holy Ghost, tested the faith of Jesus: “And straightway the Spirit driveth Him forth into the wilderness” (Mark 1:12). Satan broke what Adam held straight off; but he could not break what Jesus held in His person though he tested Him in every conceivable way; therefore having Himself suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted."

[b]* Why I prefer the KJV.[/b]

And this that confirms what I have stated above:

"When we are born again we get our first introduction into what God calls temptation. When we are sanctified we are not delivered from temptation, we are loosened into it; we are not free enough before either morally or spiritually to be tempted. Immediately we become His “brethren” we are free, and all these subtleties are at work. God does not shield any man or woman from any requirements of a full-grown man or woman. Luke 22:28 (“But ye are they which have continued with Me in My temptations”) presents Our Lord’s view of His life as Man, viz., as one of temptations, not triumphs. When we are born again the Son of God is submitted to temptations in our individual lives, are we remaining loyal to Him in His temptations in us? When temptation comes, stand absolutely true to God no matter what it costs you, and you will find the onslaught leaves you with affinities higher and purer than ever before. Temptation overcome is the transfiguration of the natural into the spiritual and the establishment of conscious affinity with the purest and best."

This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh.

A question for you that I have greatly pondered:

Given there was no way for man to rectify the wrong Adam did which prevented man from participating in thr "Way of the Cross", What do you believe was the "stop gap" measure God used to keep man until the "Fullness of Time" when Jesus would fulfill all for man's restoration/reconcilation?

This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh

Ormly, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here about Adam entering into the way of the Cross????? Are you talking about the First Adam? Was he even offered the cross? The only reason MAN is participating in the Cross is because of Adam's fall. But to suggest there was a way of the Cross before sin even entered is not even taught in scripture. I believe there was a Tree of Life in the Garden, and the reason they were escorted out and it was closed for business was to keep them from eating that tree AFTER they sinned. The first man Adam was FULLY HUMAN, made of the dust of the earth. God breathed into his nostrils and he became a living SOUL. The Last man Adam, Jesus Christ, became a life giving Spirit...according to 1st Corinthians 15.

Adam and Eve were NEVER offered co-heir ship with Jesus Christ, and were never referred to as sons of God.

It is the CHURCH that was foreordained and predestined BEFORE the foundation of the world, before Adam and Eve Sinned. THE CHURCH is Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His Flesh, and this too was NEVER offered to Adam and Eve.

You see the Church is called out to be HIGHER than the Angels...read Hebrews 1 & 2. Angels are higher than man. But in Christ His Church -Now co- heirs, and joint heirs and adopted Children are HIGHER than the angels, or we are predestined to be, at the redemption of our bodies, that will be Glorified together with Christ,...another thing Adam and Eve never were and never would have been even if they never sinned.....they would never be glorified together with Christ.

The Church, is the Mystery that was kept Secret, now revealed to us who are members of His body.

During the 1000 year reign, even those entering in will not be as the CHURCH, *bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh*. No one who is flesh and blood entering into the 1000 year Kingdom Reign will be able to say, "I am crucified with Christ, no longer I but Christ in me". They will certainly SEE the Glory of the Lord, but WE ARE Glorified with the Lord and He is Glorified in His Saints.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

Katy-did wrote:

This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh

Ormly, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here about Adam entering into the way of the Cross????? Are you talking about the First Adam? Was he even offered the cross? The only reason MAN is participating in the Cross is because of Adam's fall. But to suggest there was a way of the Cross before sin even entered is not even taught in scripture. I believe there was a Tree of Life in the Garden, and the reason they were escorted out and it was closed for business was to keep them from eating that tree AFTER they sinned. The first man Adam was FULLY HUMAN, made of the dust of the earth. God breathed into his nostrils and he became a living SOUL. The Last man Adam, Jesus Christ, became a life giving Spirit...according to 1st Corinthians 15.

Adam and Eve were NEVER offered co-heir ship with Jesus Christ, and were never referred to as sons of God.

It is the CHURCH that was foreordained and predestined BEFORE the foundation of the world, before Adam and Eve Sinned. THE CHURCH is Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His Flesh, and this too was NEVER offered to Adam and Eve.

You see the Church is called out to be HIGHER than the Angels...read Hebrews 1 & 2. Angels are higher than man. But in Christ His Church -Now co- heirs, and joint heirs and adopted Children are HIGHER than the angels, or we are predestined to be, at the redemption of our bodies, that will be Glorified together with Christ,...another thing Adam and Eve never were and never would have been even if they never sinned.....they would never be glorified together with Christ.

The Church, is the Mystery that was kept Secret, now revealed to us who are members of His body.

During the 1000 year reign, even those entering in will not be as the CHURCH, *bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh*. No one who is flesh and blood entering into the 1000 year Kingdom Reign will be able to say, "I am crucified with Christ, no longer I but Christ in me". They will certainly SEE the Glory of the Lord, but WE ARE Glorified with the Lord and He is Glorified in His Saints.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

You will just have to study it out as I have presented it from my findings. If you can agree, that would be nice but not necessary. I will stand by them until I see something that makes more sense; that more readily connects the dots as to the "why" of it all.

You might want re-read all that I offered up before telling me I'm wrong..

Ormly, I have read All that you have posted and all the other writers you have placed here. What I think I'm seeing, and please tell e if I am wrong, is that you believe we individually go to the cross. But let's clarify that. Our identifiction with Christ at Calvary is not separate from Jesus Himself. [[b]And our identification with Christ in death and resurrection life IS that the body of SIN may be destroyed. Again, not necessary for Adam and Eve b/f the fall. (Added/Edited[/b] SO we can do nothing of ourselves in crucifying ourselves, . We are crucified WITH Christ. [[b]and in your proposal of Adam and Eve applying a Cross before they sinned, you are implying we are saved through suffering, not through Christ's redemptive work on the Cross FOR US. This is altogether ANOTHER Gospel, not in scripture.( Added/ Edited) [/b]Now, how was Adam and Eve to accomplish that if Christ had not yet come and first died on the Cross for our SIN....which is the only reason He did go the the Cross...To take OUR sin...He paid the penalty of God's WRATH toward sin at Calvary. So, if before Adam and Eve Sinned you are presenting a Cross where one was not yet needed, what exactly are you teaching?

I know Hindu also believe in this suffering until you come to some perfection or Narvina state. And it would appear you are along those same lines of thought.

Jesus took on the seed of Abraham...MAN, became LOWER than the Angels in doing so, to bring many SONS into GLORY. Do you understand that? GLORY, seated with Christ in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESES. We, His Church, have a much HIGHER status and Calling then the first Adam and Eve.

This is all in Scripture...Hebrews 1&2 for starters. And not to mention Ephesians is all about Paul wanting us to KNOW the hope of *OUR* Calling...the Calling out of the Church, His Body, not individuals but His Body.

We at the time of our salvation, are raised up together with him and baptized into His Body.

Ormly, I don't know where you have those findings, but please use scripture, not commentaries, and use scripture that has to do with the Church, not the Kingdom that will be restored to Israel Acts 1:6&7, or those entering into the Kingdom Age, human Jews and Gentiles.

You see, Paul clearly taught in Ephesians His Body is no longer Jew or Gentile, but one NEW MAN. So the Church, who is being prepared to reign and rule with Christ during this time will be the New Man, Glorified together with Christ, while those entering into the Kingdom will still be flesh and blood upon the earth. I must put this dowwn because it all goes together. Satan will be bound during that time of 1000 years. After he is loosed, there will be another war, called Gog and MaGog according to Revelation. Even with Christ ruling during tht time, man (not all) will still rebel. At the end will be the Judgement of Nations, and the separating of sheep and goats. Now, WE are not the Sheep and Goats here, and God needs no angels to look and see if we are saved or not, as WE, His Body, His Church will also be judging, even the angels.

It's because of not understanding and properly separating the end times, we confuse all sort of scripture that we thing pertain to the Church when it doesn't. This is misleading and those not looking UP (for our redemption draweth nigh) for WE will meet the Lord in the Clouds,(Thess) and it will be the *Faithful, Chosen and Called *(The Church) who return with the Lord when He executes Judgement at the second coming of His earthly reign. Rev 17.

Without inderstanding this properly,Christians are going to be deceived. Well, the Faithful, Chosen and Called will not.8-)

Love in Christ
Katy-did

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly, I have read All that you have posted and all the other writers you have placed here. What I think I'm seeing, and please tell e if I am wrong, is that you believe we individually go to the cross. But let's clarify that. Our identifiction with Christ at Calvary is not separate from Jesus Himself. [[b]And our identification with Christ in death and resurrection life IS that the body of SIN may be destroyed. Again, not necessary for Adam and Eve b/f the fall. (Added/Edited[/b] SO we can do nothing of ourselves in crucifying ourselves, . We are crucified WITH Christ. [[b]and in your proposal of Adam and Eve applying a Cross before they sinned, you are implying we are saved through suffering, not through Christ's redemptive work on the Cross FOR US. This is altogether ANOTHER Gospel, not in scripture.( Added/ Edited) [/b]Now, how was Adam and Eve to accomplish that if Christ had not yet come and first died on the Cross for our SIN....which is the only reason He did go the the Cross...To take OUR sin...He paid the penalty of God's WRATH toward sin at Calvary. So, if before Adam and Eve Sinned you are presenting a Cross where one was not yet needed, what exactly are you teaching?

I know Hindu also believe in this suffering until you come to some perfection or Narvina state. And it would appear you are along those same lines of thought.

Jesus took on the seed of Abraham...MAN, became LOWER than the Angels in doing so, to bring many SONS into GLORY. Do you understand that? GLORY, seated with Christ in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESES. We, His Church, have a much HIGHER status and Calling then the first Adam and Eve.

This is all in Scripture...Hebrews 1&2 for starters. And not to mention Ephesians is all about Paul wanting us to KNOW the hope of *OUR* Calling...the Calling out of the Church, His Body, not individuals but His Body.

We at the time of our salvation, are raised up together with him and baptized into His Body.

Ormly, I don't know where you have those findings, but please use scripture, not commentaries, and use scripture that has to do with the Church, not the Kingdom that will be restored to Israel Acts 1:6&7, or those entering into the Kingdom Age, human Jews and Gentiles.

You see, Paul clearly taught in Ephesians His Body is no longer Jew or Gentile, but one NEW MAN. So the Church, who is being prepared to reign and rule with Christ during this time will be the New Man, Glorified together with Christ, while those entering into the Kingdom will still be flesh and blood upon the earth. I must put this dowwn because it all goes together. Satan will be bound during that time of 1000 years. After he is loosed, there will be another war, called Gog and MaGog according to Revelation. Even with Christ ruling during tht time, man (not all) will still rebel. At the end will be the Judgement of Nations, and the separating of sheep and goats. Now, WE are not the Sheep and Goats here, and God needs no angels to look and see if we are saved or not, as WE, His Body, His Church will also be judging, even the angels.

It's because of not understanding and properly separating the end times, we confuse all sort of scripture that we thing pertain to the Church when it doesn't. This is misleading and those not looking UP (for our redemption draweth nigh) for WE will meet the Lord in the Clouds,(Thess) and it will be the *Faithful, Chosen and Called *(The Church) who return with the Lord when He executes Judgement at the second coming of His earthly reign. Rev 17.

Without inderstanding this properly,Christians are going to be deceived. Well, the Faithful, Chosen and Called will not.8-)

Love in Christ
Katy-did

You stick to your version of the gospel and I will stick to mine, ok? ... ner the twain shall meet.

Ormly said:

This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh

So again I ask you, are you saying, if Adam and Eve had never sinned, and taken the way of the Cross (that never even existed or was revealed at that time) and eaten of the tree of life, they would be just like Jesus was in the Flesh? .....fully God/fully man? In otherwords, they would be Gods.

But let me ask you this,

When Jesus, fully God and fully man was on earth, there was a reason He humbled himself and left, Glory to do so. According to John 17, Jesus prayed to teh Father, Glorify me the way I was before the foundation of the world. So Jesus is now in all His Glory, sits at the Right hand of God the Father.

Jesus did not come to establish another race of fully God fully human beings. Nor was that his intention to begin with.

Jesus Christ IS our very life, and without His death and resurrection we would have no life...eternal life. Jesus said I AM the resurrection.

You comment earlier on another post said, when Christ went to the grave all humanity went with him.

In Adam ALL died, so no need to have Jesus bring all of humanity in the grave with him, and what, die again? How dead can dead be. In Adam all died period. Jesus Came to bring life to the already dead humanity through Adam's sin.

Jesus took upon him our sin at the Cross. The wages of sin IS death.

When we trust in Christ we at that time identify with Him in death and resurrection life. Paul said, BEING MADE conformable to his death that I may attain to the resurrection. To be made conformable to His death(Or as Philippians 2 says, ("keeping this mind in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who made himself of no reputation, and became obedient unto death") Now that would not be necessary if all were taken into the grave with Him to begin with, and now we, according to you, are trying to suffer our way out into some kind of resurrection of perfection. This is a total flip flop from the Gospel Paul preached.

We are justified by His Blood and SAVED by His life, His risen Life...walla, just like that, in a moment , in the twinkling of an eye. We are Born Again the moment we place our trust in Christ, and are NOW raised up with Him a New Creation In Christ. We are saved by GRACE through Faith, it is a gift, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ormly, we are as far as the east is from the west, and Never will this twain meet In Christ when He calls His Saints Home.

I know you will still be working on your suffering salvation, that may place you somewhere in Narnia in the imagination of your mind, and I am oh so sad that you are soooooo unwilling to listen to God's word and apply it appropriately.

You know, those who worship the beast have no rest day or night, but those In Christ have entered into HIS REST. Yours sounds oh so unrestful, oh so, not even sure you are going to be ready or make it kind of gospel. What if you died today, have you arrived at your suffering status quo?

When will you know you have become fully God/Fully man...like Jesus was when He came to earth? You know there was only ONE SEED, and that SEED is Jesus Christ. Mary was overshaddowed by the Holy Spirit, making Jesus Fully God/Fully Man. But what you seem to be saying is we are as Mary was, overshaddowed by the Holy Spirit, and instead of giving birth to God..Jesus Christ...we become God in the Flesh? How does this happen? If we are to be as Jesus was in the Flesh, we would have to be conceived the way Jesus was in the Flesh. But there was only ONE SEED (Galatians) to begin with ( and not many seeds, but that SEED is Christ) ...so where did all these other seeds you are talking about in forming a race of fully Gods /fully mans come from?

I'll tell you where it came from...The Mormon Teaching, as they believe much as you do.

Ormly, I know many Southern Baptist Churches are affiliated with the Mormons. Some even taught or still teach at Baylor. Someone has totally pointed you in a wrong direction and co-mingled the Gospel with some ungodly doctrine coming from various sorts. Please oh please confront those demons of lies, and stop passing these lies off on to others.

I *Now* live on the resurrection side of the Cross, and so glad I do. Thank you Lord Jesus I am strengthened, established and settled on that matter.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

This is one of the most Vitally important chapters in Scripture, Notice in verses 19-22 is our standing In Christ, we enter a New and Living way, through tne veil, that is to say His flesh. We are crucified with Christ, raised up with Him...the New and Living Way, and Stand IN CHRIST as we come Boldly to the Throne to the Father Himself.

Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Please, don't draw back into perdition and false doctrines. Stay ONLY in the WORD of God, Every Word of HIS and no one elses. Those who belong to Christ LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD. Don't forget!

Love in Christ
Katy-did

"Please, don't draw back into perdition and false doctrines. Stay ONLY in the WORD of God, Every Word of HIS and no one elses. Those who belong to Christ LIVE BY EVERY WORD OF GOD. Don't forget!

Love in Christ
Katy-did"

We won't Katy-did, we won't.

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

So again I ask you, are you saying, if Adam and Eve had never sinned, and taken the way of the Cross (that never even existed or was revealed at that time) and eaten of the tree of life, they would be just like Jesus was in the Flesh? .....fully God/fully man? In otherwords, they would be Gods.

I am my Father's son but I am not my Father.

I am my Father's son but not the only Begotten Son.

When I am changed I will be just like Him.

In Christ: Phillip

If you say it never existed means you have never understood it as the principle; the means by which God would bring many son'e into Glory.

1 Corinthians 15:

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am my Father's son but not the only Begotten Son.

Phillip would you clarify this for Ormly,

Are you saying there is more than one "Only Begotten Son" Since you didn't capitalize *ONLY* in "Only Begotten Son" it could be read two different ways.

Or are you saying God has more "only Begotten Son's?"

AND Since you keep saying you are *Birth by God*, You have been *birth by God*, I was just wondering now, are you in agreement with Ormly?

You are not Birthed by God the way Jesus Christ was Birth by God. You mother was not a virgin, and was not overshaddowed by the Holy Spirit to birth you. And you are not fully God/fully man Now or ever... or else you too could die on a cross and shed your blood for the forgivness of sin for others as well. Jesus came into the world TO SAVE SINNERS. He shed His Blood, and NOW in Heaven, Glorified, I don't believe he has any blood...He poured it out for our sin.

SINNERS now saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who have put their faith and trust In Him and HIS finished work of redemption at Calvary are:

QUICKENED together With Christ, the Risen Christ. This is where *our birthing* comes in.

Added for content:
Many fail to see that Adam and Eve we not seated with Christ in *Heavenly Places*, or even promised to be seated In Heavenly places, or realize sin entered the universe long before Adam & Eve were formed of the dust of the earth...earthly creatures. THat the Blood of Jesus Christ was too carried to Heaven and purged the Heavens as well (Hebrews) Eating the fruit of the tree of life would not give them Glorification, but they would have lived forever in the status they were created...out of teh dust of teh earth...earthly. Because they sinned, they were cast out of the Garden of Eden, for fear AFTER they sinned, they would live an eternal existance with a sin nature. AND that they were given only a small piece of real- estate called the Garden of Eden. NOT dominion of the whole earth. The actual dimentions are listed in Genesis.

Thanks,

Katy-did
1 Peter 1:3

Just to clarify our Begottenness comes ONLY through the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ. CHRIST IN YOU, the Hope of GLORY. There is only ONE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, and throught THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, we are saved THROUGH HIM ALONE.

[b][color=CC0000]1 Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 1:14
And the **Word was made flesh**, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, **by the word of God**, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jesus said My WORDS are Spirit and they are LIFE.

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

[/color][/b]

Christinyou wrote:
Orm,

I wrote this: I am my Father's son but I am not my Father.

Though you are son, you are one by nature and not yet by character.

I am my Father's son but not the only Begotten Son.

I can see that as being true because you/we were begotten in the Father [b]before time began[/b]. I.e., in His Heart and Mind. 1Pet.1.3 says this which infers the correctness of it: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy [b]hath begotten us [u]again[/u][/b] unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)

That is part of what the "work" of the Cross accomplished.

When I am changed I will be just like Him.

Yes. That will be the finality of it all.

What a priviledge we have if we can just see it.

Ormly said:

This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh

AGAIN Ormly, My question to you was based soley on your comment here. Please don't change the subject or try to avoid teh direct question.

Where does scripture say Adam and Eve were promised a finalization of their transfiguration, to be as God is in Human flesh? There is only ONE who became God in Human Flesh...Jesus Christ.

Did you read 1st Corinthians 15? Do you still not get it? Do you actually think Adam and Eve thwarted God's plan from the beginning of time because they sinned. Don't you suppose God already knew that would happen? What you think was suppose to have happened was never in the plan to begin with. Or else you are saying MAN has control over the universe, threw Heaven and earth out of control, and God was in Heaven scratching his head saying Oh No! now what do we do? Why are we more blessed in the end then in the Beginning? As I said, man is lower than Angels, We In Christ are raised up NOW above the Angels. Was that our reward for sin to begin with? Something bettter? This is the MYSTERY that was kept secret from **before*** the foundation of the world., which would mean, God wasn't scratching His head saying OH No! Now what do we do.

Again, all you say is based on nothing you can back up with Scripture. If you use the words Begotten AGAIN, then there would have to be a FIRST. Adam and Eve were NOT BEGOTTEN, but formed of the dust of the earth. God breathed into Adam's nostrals and he became a living soul.

1 Corinthians says the first(Adam) was not spiritual but earthly. Our Glorification / Transfiguration if that's what you say, is IN CHRIST, not in and of itself, and not in an apple or peach.

Was the whole universe Heaven and Earth also going to be transformed with a deceiving serpent on the loose still, if they never sinned and ate the apple or peach? WOW, that must have been some kinda Tree of Life that could do all that through two human beings. I had no Idea God placed the whole of the universe in their hands, including Heaven.. Amazing....just amazing.

Katy-did

Added/ Edited
Hebrews 9:22-24

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Was the Tree of Life that Adam and Eve didn't eat going to purify the heavens too?

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)

Thank you Lord Jesus that your promise in Genesis 3:15 gave us that promise of mercy through your shed blood. We now have hope AGAIN where we were without hope.

That is part of what the "work" of the Cross accomplished.

Is there another part that has not been accomplished? Does not scripture say in Colossians, WE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM.

Now what exaclty was this cross Adam and Eve were to enter before they sinned? The only Cross I know of Paul also referrs to as "The Blood of the Cross". SOOOOOO how were they to enter into a BLOODLESS Cross relationship? Well, I guess the same way the Hindu do. SELF EFFORT and SELF Sanctification, not to mention the rest of a dying world that rejects the BLOOD OF THE CROSS, which is apostasy and anti-christ.

Yep Ormly, we are as far as the east is from the west. I don't worship a bloodless cross, and Adam and Eve were never asked to enter into a bloodless cross relationship. That Blood washed away our SIN when they Fell, not a bloodless cross you want to believe is your transfiguration journey to wherever that is???!!!

Good Luck!!

crsschk wrote:
Katy-did,

You have completely hijacked this thread and thrust it into even more confusion with all sorts of innuendo's and insinuations and worse of all, accusations.

Granted, there is something a bit confusing here that I am not quite following either at this point, but it has nothing to do with all these things you are drumming up. Stop and think about what you are doing.

Thank you Crssck.

Please permit me to clear up, if I am able, whatever it is maybe a bit confusing to you. Nothing is easy to write out without saying it wrong in the process.... :-D

This verse may be a help when trying to understand that the 'Way of the Cross' is simply "self-renounciation":

"For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus [b][u]might be[/u] made manifest in our mortal flesh[/b].
2 Co 4:11

This is [can only be] the only process of becoming a son and heir and finally throne-ship.

crsschk wrote:

This verse may be a help when trying to understand that the 'Way of the Cross' is simply "self-renounciation":

Giving up our right to self ruler-ship ... Perhaps if I am following you Orm and taking off from a Chamberesque line of thought, he was often stating that the life is from the natural to the spiritual. And if I recall correctly, that was his understanding even of the first parents, that they while beginning unspoiled and without sin still would have had to grow along those lines ...

Adam was to enter into it as the means, by a series of moral choices, to become a divine-son, one formed out of the red clay. He failed. There was no divine life in either of the two lives at the outset of their existence.

This sounds decidedly like Chambers but perhaps a large part of the confusion is that it seems to be missing a great deal of former context ... it makes that last line there ... I want to say yes and no,

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Just working through this ...

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Perhaps I just answered my own musings ...

Still a bit confusing where you intended to go with all this and the other question you asked which I also have given similar dwelling on, but seems better to wait on that for the moment.

"For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh". 2 Co 4:11

Adam was to do that.

I did my best to keep this condensed. I hope I haven't made it over so.

Yes, to me, there is an awe of mystery and of love given by God by the very testing ... was it reciprocal? Proven by obedience less required in the right understanding than that of ... willingness.

How could it not be reciprocal, if I read you corrcetly?

"And Samuel said, ..... Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." 1 Samuel 15:22 (KJV)

Unless by coersion, willingness to obey must be viewed as non-sacrificial since there must be a motivation to wit willingness must be from the freewill of man. Is this not what God is looking for. Jesus had such motivation that, when IN Him, is in us.

Katy-did, what do you think Jesus means when He says, "Take up your cross and follow me."?

Nile, I have no problem with OUR NOW, taking up our cross and following Jesus Christ, However that was not the issue. Ormly seems to be saying Adam and Eve were also to take up their Cross and follow before they fell int sin and that would have kept them fro m sinning......THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL.....

That was my ONLY question to Ormly, and I wanted him to clarify what he was saying and exactly where that teaching leads to.

Isn't this what the Blogs are for, explaining yourself, or is it just putting anything down without scripture to back it up, saying take it or leave it, it's true because I said so....

Now being accused of hi-jacking this blog with the TRUTH, the Moderator here is not seeing the error or Ormly's message.

If adam & Eve Never Sinned, had taken up A CROSS( WHAT CROSS??) to enter some sort of Transfiguration, and have that dominion over the whole world or the Garden of Eden, would mankind STILL be running naked through the Garden? For all eternity?

It's called Dominion Theology that has really hi-jacked the blog here and a failure to see the dangers of adding to scripture what is not there and will never be there.

God saw from before the foundation of the world those "IN CHRIST", seated with Him in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus, not eternal humans running naked through the Garden of Eden for all eternity.

Christ means Messiah...Savior...Redeemer...the Annointed ONE. Obviously we must have needed a Redeemer,Savior,Christ, Messiah to be REDEEMED from a sin status to begin with.

But My apologies for interrupting and rebuking false doctrine.

Carry on!

Katy-did

I will say one last thing here and I do hope ynd pray you will read this and meditate upon it.

Who is Christ, and who is Adam?

Christ Is Far Greater Than Adam

The main point here is that what Christ has done for all who are in him is far greater than what Adam did for all who were in him.

The obedience of Christ is parallel, but vastly superior, to the disobedience of Adam.
The righteousness imputed to those who are in Christ is parallel, but vastly superior, to the sin imputed to those who are in Adam because of his disobedience.

The life that comes to us who are in Christ through that imputed righteousness is parallel, but vastly superior, to the death that comes to those who are in Adam through that imputed sin.
The point is the obedience of Christ, an through HIS obedience ALONE, HE has Preeminence of ALL creation,

Colossians 1:17-19
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

*******18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Majorly Important verses here.

How was this to come to pass?

Adam Is a *Type*

Romans 5

Please be sure to see for yourselves that Paul does indeed intend to draw out a parallel here between Adam and Christ. Look at verse 14. I just want to get one crucial preliminary point from verse 14:

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, WHO IS A *TYPE* OF HIM WHO WAS TO COME." Now that last phrase is what I want you all to see. That is the hinge on which the whole paragraph swings. Adam is a "type" of him who is to come. Adam is a type of Christ. Adam was never going to be anything like Christ and was never promised to be anything like Christ. *And all the Fulness was never promised to dwell with Adam and Eve even if they never sinned.

What does "type" mean? It means PATTERN, just as it says in Hebrews "pattern." Adam was a pattern of Christ who was to come. He was an example, or a foreshadowing, or a prefiguring of Christ. Just as the Tabernacle in the OT was to be built after the PATTERN of Heaven and built EXACTLY as God had said.

EVE is a TYPE of Church, taken from Adam's side, bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. Just as WE are joined together with Christ in this mystical union as One with Him, and raised a New Creation in HIM ALONE.

Thank You for listening,

My last comment here the LORD placed on my heart to post.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

:-(

Nile wrote:

Nile, I have no problem with OUR NOW, taking up our cross and following Jesus Christ, However that was not the issue. Ormly seems to be saying Adam and Eve were also to take up their Cross and follow before they fell int sin and that would have kept them fro m sinning......THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL.....

Ok, I understand you.

When Ormly talks about Adam and Eve talking up their cross, he is talking about a way of life. It means to deny-self and live unto God. Would you that agree Adam and Eve were to deny themselves and live unto God?

Ah, Youth. I love it..... :-D

When Ormly talks about Adam and Eve talking up their cross, he is talking about a way of life. It means to deny-self and live unto God. Would you that agree Adam and Eve were to deny themselves and live unto God?

Nile, I will answer this one last time so we do understand one another.

Here again is what I objected to with Ormly's comment, completely different then what he is proposing now, trying to laugh it off by saying:

[b]Ah, Youth. I love it..... [/b]

Let me post here again Ormly's words:

This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh

THIS was and IS my final answer to this comment NOT in scripture, and why it completely OPPOSES anything scripture teaches:
I believe some here may have forgotten this, and have been carried away with *another* gospel.

It’s the Spirit of Live in Christ that has set us free from the law of sin and death. That Spirit of Life IN CHRIST is ETERNAL Life, never to be lost again. Those who have it will not be beguiled by the serpent and find death again. Christ has won that victory for us over Satan. He who is IN YOU is stronger than he who is in the world….and satan(the serpent) was in the world before the fall, and after the fall, and will not be completely dealt with until the very end. We may be tempted by satan now, but we don’t LOSE our salvation. If that were so, then ALL Christ accomplished would be one big joke.

That is the reason why those who have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ are in a far more blessed condition than was Adam before he fell. Adam before he fell was righteous in the sight of God, but he was still under the possibility of becoming unrighteous. Those who have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ not only are righteous in the sight of God but they are beyond the possibility of becoming unrighteous. In their case, the probation is over. It is not over because they have stood it successfully. It is not over because they have themselves earned the reward of assured blessedness which God promised on condition of perfect obedience. But it is over because Christ has stood it for them; it is over because Christ has merited for them the reward by His perfect obedience to God’s law.

But again there is so much more to the Obedience of Christ.

Again let me point out:

The point is the obedience of Christ, an through HIS obedience ALONE, HE has Preeminence of ALL creation, King of King and Lord of Lords.

Colossians 1:17-19
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

*******18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, WHO IS A *TYPE/figure* OF HIM WHO WAS TO COME." Now that last phrase is what I want you all to see. That is the hinge on which the whole paragraph swings. Adam is a "type" of him who is to come. Adam is a type of Christ. Adam was never going to be anything like Christ and was never promised to be anything like Christ. *And all the Fullness/ or preeminence was never promised to dwell with Adam and Eve even if they never sinned.

Nile, I've posted many articles on the Fellowship of His sufferings. I believe MOST of what I have posted on SI is on that very subject, and how we are conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ through that fellowship.

I won't hijack the blog here to re- post those.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did

Crsschk,

The letter of James provides an important clue for the shape of the church's witness in the world: "God brought us forth by his word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits (aparchen tina) of his [new] creation" (1.18). The word aparche, which in the New Testament is used for Christ and the Spirit, is here applied to the church.

It still seems you are pouring more into all this than what was intended, but beyond that your spirit is not right with these accusations and denouncements

I thought the subject matter on this blog was First fruits?

Yes, the Lord has stirred and troubled my heart and always has when I hear false doctrine. Maybe because I have the Gift of Discernment as well, and out of obedience to the Lord I do what HE askes and places on my heart.

With that, MY heart and conscience do not condemn me in what I see and am saying.

I do hope and pray the Lord will open your eyes andwatch closely extra biblical babbel subtly mixed in with the Word of God.

That troubles my tremendously that that is not addressed, but you want to address me because I have eyes to see something that is very dangerous.

When God breathed into Adam's nostrals the breath of Life, he did NOT breath in the Spirit of Life in Christ that set him free from the law of sin and death. The original Law of Sin ans death was given to Adam & Eve, not Moses. They sinned, we died. The Law of God.

And Crsschk, you said yourself on this blog there are things you never thought of etc,. So you are still in a learning mode yourself, obviously. It wasn't Ormly who even brought up the issue of God breathing into Adam or posted 1 Corinthians 15, but I did, and you replied back to Ormly as though he said it, saying good thought.

Now I read GW North and it was excellent, but GW North himself NEVER made any such statements as Ormly has. THIS is very confusing to me.

Again teh subject here is about firstfruits correct? Adam and Eve were never firstfruits. ****Christ the Firstfruit, 1 Corinthians 15.

So who had hi-jacked the blog here and changed teh subject to obedience? Not I. My thoughts have ALWAYS been on target with the Blog question. I Never Hi Jacked or changed teh Subject.

But concerning Obedience, I did Post that It is Christ's Obedience and our faith in that Obedience. We live by the Faith of Christ, so our obedience is strictly "IN HIM", and Him alone,

*no longer I but Christ IN Me*.
Galatains 2:20&21.

You either Have Christ In You or you Don't. Those who do KNOW it's HIS Power working in and through us, and by faith we are partakers of HIS Divine Nature. 2 Peter 1.

Anyway, don't condemn what you haven't yet come to understand.

With Love In Christ Jesus
Katy-did

Interesting the depths of presumptous deception one can sink into and ignoring the iniquity, call it discernment.. We cannot form the mind of Christ if we don't have His Spirit, nor can we interpret/discern His teaching apart from His Spirit.

The principle of the cross was always in the Father's Mind as the way for man to enter His Presence. Both the work of the cross and the way of the cross were from the beginning in the Mind of God. Adam was His first experiment in this.

Jesus was no exception. He possessed the Nature of God from His birth because of His conception however, it was given Him of the Father that He should protect His Heritage [Birthright] by His willingness to abandon Himself to His Father's will, that all things might be perfected in Him..... and for Him....The "way of the Cross" was manifested in Him before the "work of the Cross" was finalized by Him that we might now partake of the same priviledge...

The principle of the cross was always in the Father's Mind as the way for man to enter His Presence. Both the work of the cross and the way of the cross were from the beginning in the Mind of God. Adam was His first experiment in this.

Adam was in the presence of God from the Beginning. They seemed to walk and talk together. So I'm not sure what additional presence you are refering to here.

Ormly, the first order of business with Obdience is that we bring *every thought* under the Obedience of Christ. Our own thoughts on a subject are simly that, our own, and if not brought under the obdience of Christ we get off coarse.

We through our surrendered life are being transformed by the renewing of our mind...strictly and by none other than the WORD of God.

Extra biblecal babbel is not His word, and must obediently be put away from us. Not to do so would be disobedience.

I have said NOTHING here that would bring in presumptuous DECEPTION.

We must make sure that the Spirit you are refering to is the Spirit of Christ...The Word of God, as that Spirit cannot, and will not introduce extra biblical babel not in His word, nor will he have any part of it.

When we die to self we are dying to our old adam nature. What nature exactly was Adam to die to to begin with? Adam KNEW exaclty what he was doing with eyes wide open. It was Eve who was deceived, taking a bite of a lie presented to her? She took the bite and it cost dearly. Now we are presented today with Satan wispering in our ear lies and deception and says to us, here, bite. But we know Have a renewed mind (those who do, and have stayed in His Word) and we say no thank you, I eat only teh Word of God. Satan is most clever, even using God's word, as he did in the desert during Jesus 40 day trial. It was God's Word that rebuked satan. Because Jesus knew other scripture that rebuked those Satan was taking out of context. Great lesson here to be learned.

Adam, a shaddow or figure of Him who was to come can also be seen as one who laid down His life for His Bride...with eyes wide open.

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal many deep wonderful truths in these types and shaddows, so also clearly stated in Romans 5:14.....

The principle of the Cross HAS always been in the back of God's mind for US, TODAY, His Church, His NEW Creation. That is EXACTLY what I am trying to say myself. That NEW creation includes a New Heaven as well, corrupted by the fall of satan long before man was formed. Satan didn't fall because of Eve's sin. Satan was a liar from the beginning who rebelled against God. In the New Creation there will be NO SATAN. If adam and eve never sinned, there would have always been a satan on the loose, until when?

The whole plan of God from before the foundation of the world INCLUDED the FINAL overthrow of Satan once an for all and for all eternity.

Since Jesus who is the Word of God and was with God from the Beginning, and IS God, was certainly part of the planning of all. The Lord our God is ONE.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did

Love in Christ Jesus

The beginning was not creation of man. It was the beginning of God... whenever that was.

Ormly,

My understanding is we are discussing Firstfruits. So please if you would stay on the subject at hand introduced on hhis blog. We are the First Fruits of God's NEW Creation In Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

God's Plan from the Beginning:

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

******27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Totally unlike the first, no satan there to make a lie or deceive.

Praise God!

Love In Christ
Katy-did

Katy-did wrote:

Ormly,

My understanding is we are discussing Firstfruits. So please if you would stay on the subject at hand introduced on hhis blog. We are the First Fruits of God's NEW Creation In Christ Jesus.

I started this thread with that theme in mind. You derailed it as you usually do, taking it in some strange undefinable direction.

I started this thread with that theme in mind. You derailed it as you usually do, taking it in some strange undefinable direction.

Ormly, I have read this whole thread, with wondeful wonderful comments. I copied several of the answers given you about who we are in Christ.

Phillip - ChristInYou gave a perfect and beautiful answer.

Your Quote Ormly:

This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh

But you yourself derailed the conversation with the above quote, that has nothing whatsoever to do with *****Who we are in Christ******. Even when Phillip was telling you along with others telling you...we abide IN CHRIST..the Risen Christ, the Firstfruit of the NEW Creation, not the old.

The first fruits are those alive from the dead Ormly, and according to Romans 7 only those alive from the dead can bring forth fruit to begin with. You know you have passed from death to life when you LOVE the brethren. That's the beginning of our fruit. We also speak the Truth In LOVE. again Fruit.

That fruit is produces via the fellowship of His sufferings, always carrying about in our body the dying of Jesus Christ that the Life of Jesus Christ is manifest in us.

One must be IN Christ for this to happen. God works in as we work out. We are HIS workmanship, and we yield and obey to that workmanship as we abide in Him.

James 1 is another clue how we become perfect and entire lacking nothing. Out Faith is tested. Just like Jesus in the wilderness. God allows Satan to throw up all sorts of false doctrine etc, and He test us. Are we going to believe God, or believe man? Are we going to run and hide, or are we going to put on teh WHOLE armour of God and squelch those firey darts , firey insults, from satan.

As we believe God we are being Perfected here meaning MATURE, not perfect as that we become sinless.

Mature Christians have developed the Mind of Christ and through that development we have been exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews.

Love is patient, kind, longsuffering, thinks NO EVIL, etc. Love keeps our brothers and sisters on track and in truth. Sometimes Love is tough love. Proverbs says, the wounds of a brother will result in Love returned, but a scoffer will hate you. Sort of a good sign who has and hasn't yet passed from death to life. When we LOVE the Brethren no matter what, whether we like them or not, that Love will manifest.

Well, Ormly, I must go now.

With Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

What can i say Katy except you just don't understand why Christ came to Earth. You don't understand His message and what was the Fathers ultimate intention for mankind. Thats too bad.

You must believe God created Adam to fail.

Ormly, maybe this will help:

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

******20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; *******

In hope of What? The NEW Creation!

21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ( The NEW Creation).

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

PS added Edited for content
Hebrews 2:

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection THE WORLD TO COME, whereof we speak.

6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

It doesn't ... sorry

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Katy-did wrote:
1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Who is "we"?

Ormly, would you explain to me, how, if Adam had accomplished his purpose in taking up his cross and through that we would be like Jesus was in the flesh? Doen't the cross mean death? Even to US woh believe, doesn't our cross or identification with Christ mean death? Our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life was once for all. Our history in our old adam ended once and for all. What history would have ended for Adam?

This Joy that was set before Jesus Christ, are you saying the same Joy was set before Adam? So in essence you are saying Adam 1 failed, and Adam 2 didn't, both having the same mission, same purpose and same end result?

Concerning Jesus enduring the Cross, the Scriptures say:

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 5:
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So Adam 1 was suppose to be the author of eternal salvation?

Concerning your question "WE", I presume was Paul and the Apostles, but mostly Paul who was entrusted with the Gospel according the the MYSTERY, Romans 16:25-27, that he more fully developed through out all his epistles. He says those who become of Full Age (or maturity in Christ understand this Mystery.) We, at least I know in Colosians 1 the Mystery is Christ In You, the hope of GLORY.

Even if adam had never sinned, and taken whatever way of the Cross of denying self, would God have highly exalted him, and given him a name above every name, crowned him with Glory, that all after Adam would now bow to Adam in his obedience unto death of a cross and call him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

But you seem to be suggesting this was to happen by way of Adam entering his transfiguration or glorification.

Anyway Ormly, I'm really tired of this discussion. I've tried every way I know to play out the detail of your intrepretation in my mind, and all scripture tells me is , in the end we would be worshiping Adam 1 who would be the author and finisher of our eternal salvation, and then we could instead say: To Adam 1 be the Glory. Someone the Father, Son and Holy Spirit created out of the dust of the earth????? Is that how it was MEANT to be?

Well, guess what, NOW we're sinners, and NOW we can worship GOD, the second person in the Trinity who got the job done right.

Gotta Go Ormly,
Love In Christ
Katy-did

PS: Ormly, Just another question? Was it also in God's original plan tht Adam & Eve after their transfiguration ...that is if all was to go as planned, were they to have offspring and would their offspring also be transfigured or glorified beings on the earth? Are we, once glorified going to have offspring? If so, why? If not Why? Wasn't that in God's original plan anyway? If it was His first plan as you say, why not in this one as well?

in the end we would be worshiping Adam 1 who would be the author and finisher of our eternal salvation, and then we could instead say: To Adam 1 be the Glory. Someone the Father, Son and Holy Spirit created out of the dust of the earth????? Is that how it was MEANT to be?

That was the intent.

And by pro-creation Father would had His vast family of son's. Because Adam failed, redemption of the family became necessary. Enter the man, Jesus.

The word "transfigured" is a very interesting word. The Greek word is "metamorpho" and it means to transform, literally or figuratively to metamorphose, or to change. The word is a verb that means to change into another form. It also means to change the outside to match the inside. The prefix "meta" means to change and the "morphe" means form. In the case of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ it means to match the outside with the reality of the inside. To change the outward so that it matches the inward reality. Jesus' divine nature was "veiled" (Hebrews 10:20) in human form and the transfiguration was a glimpse of that glory. Therefore, the transfiguration of Jesus Christ displayed the Shekinah glory of God incarnate in the Son. The voice of God attesting to the truth of Jesus' Sonship was the second time God's voice was heard. The first time was at Jesus' baptism into His public ministry by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:7; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22).

Therefore, the transfiguration of Jesus Christ was a unique display of His divine character and a glimpse of the glory, which Jesus had before He came to earth in human form. This truth is emphasized for us in a passage in the Apostle Paul's letter to Phillippi. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form (morphe) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form (morphe) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:5-11).

The Son of God came to earth in the form of a man to be the true servant of God and to gift mankind with the greatest gift ever given, eternal life. The transfiguration of Jesus Christ was a visible sign in the presence of reliable witnesses of the reality of the power of God and the glory, which is Christ Jesus.

And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:5-11).

soooooo what you are saying then is in God's original plan (gone sour), All would then be saying

"That at the name of Adam I every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Adam I is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ?????

I had no Idea! Thanks for the info.

Is this also the views and opinion of SI?

Colossians 1:15-17

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

In Christ
Katy-did

Katy-did wrote:

And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:5-11).

soooooo what you are saying then is in God's original plan (gone sour), All would then be saying

"That at the name of Adam I every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Adam I is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ?????

Thats right.

I had no Idea! Thanks for the info.

Is this also the views and opinion of SI?

Your welcome

Ormly, do you have any scrupture to back up what you are saying
My Bible says
Colossians 1:15-17

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

This could NEVER HAVE BEEN Adam I's destiny, never in anyone's wildest imagination.

Your are saying,

Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End First and Last was an after thought? Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow was an after thought?

Ormly, is this in the "Book of Adam" or something. Can you tell me where you have gotten this information and facts. I need scripture.

Katy-did

I asked you awhile back if you thought God created Adam to fail. You never answered my question.

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly, do you have any scrupture to back up what you are saying
My Bible says
Colossians 1:15-17

If you understand the scriptures you will understand what Adam was purposed to accomplish, unless you believe God created him to fail. It's not rocket science.

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

That was Adam.

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Yep, that speaks of Christ alright. But Christ wasn't a Son. He was the Word, the very expression of the Father. Jesus was the Son. Adam was a son, too.

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Yep. That is still speaking of Christ, the Word.

This could NEVER HAVE BEEN Adam I's destiny, never in anyone's wildest imagination.

It was always Adam's destiny. If you can believe the Christ of Glory came to Earth to inhabit a human body why can't you believe it could have been Adam's if Adam had remained faithful. He inhabited Jesus' because Adam failed.

Your are saying,

Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End First and Last was an after thought?

That is speaking of Christ, regardless of whether or not He ever came to Earth to redeem man and restore him to the "way of the Cross" to son-ship.

Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow was an after thought?

That is now a fact. The Christ of Glory now permently inhabits the body of Jesus because Jesus overcame in His Human life. However, it was intended to be Adam that that was to accomplished.

Ormly, is this in the "Book of Adam" or something. Can you tell me where you have gotten this information and facts. I need scripture.

No, You just need to understand the scripture you paste up for me to understand.

Ormly, I believe God cannot lie, so If Jesus Christ was the creator of ALL things as (I posted previously), by Him and for Him, and if He wanted to create someone not to fail, He would have done just that.

He created a man, just that, a human being with a will to choose. If we know God KNOWS the beginning from the end...then He KNEW Adam would fail.

Just as I believe in whosoever will may come. I don't believe that man does not have free choice even today. Which would be along the same lines, right. But God KNOWS who will and who won't chose Him.

The thought that Adam was created to fail, is along the same line of those who believe those God doesn't want were created to fail also. I don't believe this at all.

There are still mysteries we are not privy to, and may take all of eternity for us to grow into that understanding.

All I do know is, God cannot lie, and what was forordained *before the foundation of the world* was His Church taken from among sinners.

If this was for-ordained *before* the foudation of the world, even before Adam & Eve, and we were(the Church) Chosen **IN CHRIST**, then to say otherwise would be calling God a liar. I can't do that.

No where in Scripture does it even imply Jesus Christ was an after thought.

And again, there would have always been that pesty little serpent running lose. How was that or the 1/3 of the angels who left their first estate to have been resolved? Was Adam I to have achieved that mission too? No where in Scripture is anything like that spoken of. If man were lower than the angels, and man was only given dominion of the earth, not angels, or satan, how was that to be accomplished with out the power and might to go with it. Were they promised power and might equal to God himself?

Ormly, we need to be very careful not to add to scripture what simply is not there. We will all give an account one day for all that we teach, and teachers are warned that they will have a greater punishment. I only go by what the Bible teaches, and if it's not there, it's not there for a reason.

That's the best answer I can give you.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

:-(

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly, I believe God cannot lie, so If Jesus Christ was the creator of ALL things as (I posted previously), by Him and for Him, and if He wanted to create someone not to fail, He would have done just that.

He created a man, just that, a human being with a will to choose. If we know God KNOWS the beginning from the end...then He KNEW Adam would fail.

Just as I believe in whosoever will may come. I don't believe that man does not have free choice even today. Which would be along the same lines, right. But God KNOWS who will and who won't chose Him.

The thought that Adam was created to fail, is along the same line of those who believe those God doesn't want were created to fail also. I don't believe this at all.

There are still mysteries we are not privy to, and may take all of eternity for us to grow into that understanding.

All I do know is, God cannot lie, and what was forordained *before the foundation of the world* was His Church taken from among sinners.

If this was for-ordained *before* the foudation of the world, even before Adam & Eve, and we were(the Church) Chosen **IN CHRIST**, then to say otherwise would be calling God a liar. I can't do that.

No where in Scripture does it even imply Jesus Christ was an after thought.

And again, there would have always been that pesty little serpent running lose. How was that or the 1/3 of the angels who left their first estate to have been resolved? Was Adam I to have achieved that mission too? No where in Scripture is anything like that spoken of. If man were lower than the angels, and man was only given dominion of the earth, not angels, or satan, how was that to be accomplished with out the power and might to go with it. Were they promised power and might equal to God himself?

Ormly, we need to be very careful not to add to scripture what simply is not there. We will all give an account one day for all that we teach, and teachers are warned that they will have a greater punishment. I only go by what the Bible teaches, and if it's not there, it's not there for a reason.

That's the best answer I can give you.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

Well that certainly is your opnion you are free to express. I don't agree with it based on my understanding of the scriptures which I know I do not violate anyone's sensibilities. If it does yours then consider yourself the exception and you will have to forgive me.

We will have to leave it at that.

Ormly, I do want to thank you for this dialogue in understand this concept that goes way back to the OSAS forum. I do believe if we had had this conversation then as we are now, that forum would not have gotten out of control, as the same issue came up then as well as here. My only objective has been to conpletely understand what you were saying. Now you have explained what you believe.

Ormly, there is nothing to forgive or not forgive. It only helps me understand more clearly what you have built your foundation upon.

We certainly can agree to disagree. One has to know all the facts involved from either of our perspectives to even have a basis to agree or disagree.

Again Ormly, I do thank you for talking to me and following through to the end of this one issue.

Katy

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly, I do want to thank you for this dialogue in understand this concept that goes way back to the OSAS forum. I do believe if we had had this conversation then as we are now, that forum would not have gotten out of control, as the same issue came up then as well as here. My only objective has been to conpletely understand what you were saying. Now you have explained what you believe.

Ormly, there is nothing to forgive or not forgive. It only helps me understand more clearly what you have built your foundation upon.

We certainly can agree to disagree. One has to know all the facts involved from either of our perspectives to even have a basis to agree or disagree.

Again Ormly, I do thank you for talking to me and following through to the end of this one issue.

Katy

Thank you for your kind words, Katy.

I can assume from them there will be no more accusations from you that I am teaching a different gospel or that I am a Mormon or Hindu or whatever, ok? I am not doing such a thing. I do believe there is more to the gospel than the redemption story of rather redemption is only part of it. Also, this thinking is not to be applied to the church except as an outcome of the 'Way of the Cross' in a corporate setting. Perhaps it can be said that "rectified", "self-renounced" folk, make up the true Church. Think on that and then ask the question, "Have I been I rectified"? Am I "self-renounced"? Am I in the process of either?

Hi Ormly, Seems like we are both early birds!

Ormly , You said:

I do believe there is more to the gospel than the redemption story of rather redemption is only part of it. Also, this thinking is not to be applied to the church except as an outcome of the 'Way of the Cross' in a corporate setting. Perhaps it can be said that "rectified", "self-renounced" folk make up the true Church. Think on that.

I guess that was the confusion here all along, with the forum named Jesus Firstfruits. And with Scripture teaching we are His fruit, (if a seed falls to the ground it abides alone, but if it die, it brings forth fruit) was referring to Jesus death and resurrection and we are that fruit He brought forth. The Bible treaches we have been purchase with the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ. Now our fruit unto God is the very working out of God's working in the very Life of Christ, "no longer I but Christ in me"...and the Fruit of the Spirit is the Very essence of Christ In Me.

Since the spirit of the Life of Christ that set him free from the law of sin and death was never breathed into Adam's nostrals to begin with, but only that breath that brought forth a living soul, and no scripture saying that his obedience alone would have turned Adam into anything more than an eternal soul, or that there would be a transfiguration unvailing his flesh to reveal within Adam, God himself, also implying God could create another God equal to Himself purely based on obedience alone, is baffeling to me.

You do believe there is more to the Gospel, and you have formed your thoughts on what you believe that *MORE* is.

I thank you for giving what that *MORE* is, and I also said we can agree to disagree.

I do know one thing Ormly, all those other Cults, regardless of what they believe do have one thing in common...they have added *MORE* then the Original inspired Word of God teaches.

Think on that!

In Christ
Katy-Did

Good morning, Katy. Yes, I am up usually, quite early. It's my best time of day.

Since the spirit of the Life of Christ that set him free from the law of sin and death was never breathed into Adam's nostrals to begin with, but only that breath that brought forth a living soul, and no scripture saying that his obedience alone would have turned Adam into anything more than an eternal soul, or that there would be a transfiguration unvailing his flesh to reveal within Adam, God himself, also implying God could create another God equal to Himself purely based on obedience alone, is baffeling to me.

Then ask yourself these questions: What would have happened if Adam would eaten of the Tree of Life?
Why, after he trangressed, was he expelled from the garden? What would have been the consequences of the trangression had he eaten of it? Think it through, Katy.

You do believe there is more to the Gospel, and you have formed your thoughts on what you believe that *MORE* is.

To the contrary. It is you who has not taken in the "rest of the story" of the gospel. You are hung up on some particular theme that is "dead-end" thinking. No doubt truth, however, it won't see you home.

I thank you for giving what that *MORE* is, and I also said we can agree to disagree.

I do know one thing Ormly, all those other Cults, regardless of what they believe do have one thing in common...they have added *MORE* then the Original inspired Word of God teaches.

Ormly said, referring to my statement:

Then ask yourself these questions: What would have happened if Adam would eaten of the Tree of Life?

Seeing you didn't disagree with what seems to be your version of a perfect outcome, you are also saying if I'm not mistaken:

If Adam and Eve would have eaten from the Tree of Life, after their obedience, producing the outcome of their transfiguration (as you say)to become a clone of God himself, first being clothed in flesh, would no longer be flesh but transfigured???, with reproductive organs to produce MORE Gods and more gods and more gods and more gods, and that this was His original plan to have children??!!??

Then the only reason He originally created man was for those reproductive organs to have these little gods, or children...fully god children?

Now I do know that in Job, angels were also referred to as sons of God...but not in the same sense as would be the offspring of transfigured Adam and Eve. But they were too created by God, with a free will it would seem, and rebelled wanting to be like God, or exalt himself above God, or at least this is what we are told Lucifer wanted.

So now we have in your perfect world a dysfunctional family, with God's offspring through Adam & Eve Transfigured, and the rebellious angels constantly quarreling, not to mention possible sibling rivalry.

I would thing God would have wanted to deal with the issues at hand first before bringing sons into Glory.

This Is why I believe, as I showed in Revelation, God's plan, that before all were brought into Glory, Satan and the fallen angels would have been dealt with, seeing in the NEW Heaven and New Earth, nothing evil, nothing that could make a lie, (as the serpent was a liar from the beginning) could enter in.

This is my final answer Ormly. Nothing can change my mind on the matter.

In Christ
Katy-did

Katy-did wrote:
Ormly said, referring to my statement:

Then ask yourself these questions: What would have happened if Adam would eaten of the Tree of Life?

I asked a simple question. Can you not give a simple answer? Can you be that obstinate?

NOTE: Transfiguration is the necessary result of obeying God.

In searching this out I came across this by Chambers:

Analogy of the First Adam and Last Adam (Romans 5:12, 19)

There are only two Men in the Bible: Adam and Jesus Christ, “with all humanity hanging at their girdles.”

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

"The New Testament reveals that the birth of Jesus was an advent, not a beginning—an advent that put Him on the plane, humanly speaking, that Adam was on. The first Adam and the last Adam came direct from the hand of God.

God did not create Adam holy, He created him innocent, without self-consciousness (as we understand the word) before God; the one thing Adam was conscious of was God and only of himself in relation to the Being Whose commands he was to fulfil; the main trend of his spirit was towards God. [b]Adam was intended by God to take part in his own development by a series of moral choices whereby he would transform innocence into holiness. Adam failed to do this, Jesus Christ came on the same platform as Adam and did not fail. Supposing Adam had transformed the natural life into the spiritual by obedience, what would have happened? Transfiguration; he would have “spiritualised” the natural life and made it all that God wanted it to be.[/b] The natural life is neither good nor bad, moral nor immoral; it is the principle within that makes it good or bad, moral or immoral".

This was a confirming word to me.

Psa 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

I do understand this, and I understand unity is that we are of one mind and one accord.

This I believe is the Unity we are NOW called to:
Colossians 2:

4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Who we are and what we are is NOW IN CHRIST Alone. What was to have been??? is not, and what is to be is NOW.

Is this Chambers or Ormly?

Supposing Adam had transformed the natural life into the spiritual by obedience, what would have happened? Transfiguration; he would have “spiritualised” the natural life and made it all that God wanted it to be.

It's the What God wanted it to be that we are not of the same accord.

If as you say Ormly, that you said every knee would have bowed and confessed Adam 1 to be Lord to the Glory of the Father, this is where I must in obedience to the scriptures just posted, depart from this conversation. For me and my conscience NOW IN CHRIST, I am to love the LORD MY GOD, with all my Heart Mind Soul and Spirit.

The natural life is neither good nor bad, moral nor immoral; it is the principle within that makes it good or bad, moral or immoral".

The natural NOW is fallen and sin. There is not a *principle* within me that makes me anything,

It is CHRIST IN ME ONLY that has put to death the moral AND immoral, and made me a NEW Creation In Christ Jesus.

Jesus DID NOT come on the *same* platform as Adam I, as Jesus, God incarnate, born of a virgin, took upon Him sin, SHED HIS BLOOD, for the forgivness of sin, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father.... a place NEVER reserved for Adam 1.

Gotta Go!

Katy-did

Added. Edited

We are saved by ONE principle ALONE, and that is FAITH in Jesus Christ, for what HE and HE alone did at Calvary. To God be the Glory for all the things *HE* HAS DONE...MY LORD and My God...from eternity past to eternity future! Who was and is and always will be...the Great I AM.

End this Katy. I'm done.

Sorry.
-------------------------------------

I offer this for everyone's consideration:

The "work of Cross" is for the creation of saints. The "way of the Cross" is for their perfection.

Before Adam's Transgression, the "work of the Cross" was not necessary. Seeing that the "way of the Cross" can only be between sinless beings, i.e., sinless man with God responding to his willingness to renounce himself, his will, Adam could have freely participated, that is until he transgressed. He disqualifed himself from the priviledge of becoming all what the Father intended for him, i.e., son-ship, heir-ship and ultimately throne-ship. There could be no more "making of saints" since the "work of the Cross" was now needed for that purpose. 4G yrs. man waited for the advocate Adam never had.
Enter Jesus, the last Adam and by His Obedience-Allegiance, reconciled the world to the Father. This was the WORK that restores man to the condition Adam, by his trangression, interrupted. We can now become what was intended for Adam because of the Blood of the Lamb shed for us.

That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not all, but the main part.

This is what Paul understood when he said this:

"with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live [b]of the Son of God[/b], who did love me and did give himself for me" Galatians 2:20 (YLT)

This is the "sinlessness" in which he functioned throughout his missionary life. This is also why John could say that one, in this Spiritual condition; this intimate relationship, could not sin.

Ormly, I have no more inquiries.

Katy-did

The "work of Cross" is for the creation of saints. The "way of the Cross" is for their perfection.

Ormly, the Work of the Cross comes after the Way of the Cross.

Are you saying Jesus lived by faith of the Son of God? so, Galatians is about Jesus living by the way of a cross that His sinlessness functioned to begin with? Then why the virgin birth? So you are saying Jesus was not God? Or didn't become God until AFTER He rose from the dead? Jesus Fully God, Fully Man showed up before teh Cross, transfigured on the mount of Transfiguration BEFORE going to the Cross, God Revealing HE WAS the very Glory and essence of God, even calling Him SON before that at his baptism with John the Baptist.

This was the WORK that restores man to the condition Adam, by his trangression, interrupted. We can now become what was intended for Adam because of the Blood of the Lamb shed for us.

AND this is incorrect...we are not *restored* back to what Adam was to be before the fall...AKA Restoration Theology.

WE are a NEW Creation In Christ Jesus. Adam before the FAll was NOT a New Creation in Christ Jesus.

Anyone else, please.

Ormly, regardless of the work of the Cross or the way of the cross, the Bible says this

For the preaching of the cross is to them that parish foolishness, but to us who ARE saved, IT IS THE POWER OF GOD.

So regardless of Adam I taking or not taking up his cross, the power of God was not in it, because there was no WORK of the cross that preceeded a way you seem to think he was to follow.

The Cross, what you call a *principle* of life can not save /sanctify/ or transfigure anyone.

Jesus said, Behold, I call all things NEW.

Only His New Creation in the New Creation washed in the Blood of the Lamb, who are sanctified through that blood, will be forever with the Lord in the NEW Heaven and Earth.

We look forward and up, not back to Eden and down to earth.

I'm done!

This is the "sinlessness" in which he functioned throughout his missionary life. This is alsThis is the "sinlessness" in which he functioned throughout his missionary life. This is also why John could say that one, in this Spiritual condition; this intimate relationship, could not sin.

Paul NEVER claimed to be sinless, because Paul knew they were of one mind and one accord in the unity of the faith John also saying:

John 1:7-9
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Paul full of Truth, never preached sinless perfection in our now lifetime. Only Glorified at the redemption of our bodies, will that sinless life exist when Jesus comes to take His Saints to our NEW Home, where mansions are NOW being built for us.

Isn't this what Oneness Pentecostal, Restoration Theology teaches? Some here may want to read the warnings on that label.

Love in Christ
Katy-did

Added/ Edited for content and TRUTH:

The Greek word “teleios” (tel’-i-os) is used throughout the New Testament. It is often translated as “perfect” but can also mean “complete,” “full-grown,” and even “mature.” The confusion comes in when various translations use the word “perfect” instead of one of the other meanings. As an example, in James 1:4 it says that we will be “perfect and complete.” But a further reading of the book shows that a better translation would be “mature,” because in James 3:2 it says that we all stumble. Obviously we cannot be perfect and stumble. However, the concept of maturity is compatible with imperfection.

1 Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28, 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context. As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The Apostle Paul scolded Peter (Galatians 2:11-13) for favoritism. Late in his ministry Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. How could you or I claim anything different?

True perfection will not come until the “Rapture” when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection

Hi Nile!

Keep in mind Christ was NOT the son of God. Jesus was, as well as being son of man. In reality and actuality the two became one at His birth; Christ being one with flesh and Jesus protecting that relationship in His humanity. Jesus was completely "self-renounced" [a purely human thing here] doing only what the Father revealed for him to do. By this He proved Himself as a human worthy to be for all eternity the embodiment of Christ who was the Word; very expression of the Father. In Glory we will see the nail prints that will testify to this being so.

By a series of moral choices Adam, not unlke what Jesus was presented, was originally intended by God to be what Jesus became, i.e., Christ in flesh and bone. No more Pre-incarnate Christ, ever.

Keep in mind here that in [u]reality[/u] Jesus always was what He became in [u]actuality[/u] but it all had to be worked out through the finger tips of flesh and on the Mount that day He was tranfigured. That was His graduation day.

This from above is now given to us to perform upon our new birth until that day we have our graduation:

"In reality the two became one at His birth; Christ being one with flesh and Jesus protecting that relationship in His humanity"

Christinyou wrote:
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Adam was created a living soul, with no spirit of God or spirit of Satan. Adam chose his spirit nature when he believed the lie of Satan.

Where do you come with this notion of "spirit nature"? I don't see that concept in the scriptures.

Nile wrote:

Keep in mind Christ was NOT the son of God.

Who was He then, before the world began?

The "Word"; Logos, the very expression of the Father who spoke the worlds into existence. He was not Jesus at this point in time.

I think the way your using the word "Christ" is confusing me. I am accustomed to using "Christ" and "Jesus" interchangeably.

Thats fine, but understand that is only fact now because of Calvary. Proof lies in the resurrection. All the Angels were on tip toe to witness the man Jesus coming out of that grave to be the Christ in a Glorified Human Body.

If Adam had fulfilled his purpose, would "Christ" and "Adam" be interchangeable?

Yes. And there would have been no need for a Calvary in the process.

“There has always been from before the foundation of the world, for a Calvary.”

True, but only in the foreknowledge of God was it so and only in the foreknowledge of God is that intended to be understood when read in the Bible.

You must keep in mind that the reason for Jesus, the second Adam, is because Adam 1, failed.

Now ask the logical question: What would have been the outcome had Adam succeeded?

The problem with most all Christians today is they are hung on the redemption story from a man centered perspective; not one they even desire to understand from God's perspective. One that speaks only of receiving God's blessings: "Save me", "heal me", "fix me", "teach me", "bless me", etc, etc. These folk are selfish and refuse to embrace the way of the Cross for their lives, seeking always to GET something from God rather than being interested in becoming what He purposed for them. To me, being born again means that one has this interest. Ergo, we have all these man-centered "Christian" religious factions in "how to" clubs called "church"... They have never taken the time, nor have any inclination, to understand what Father had in mind for His creation; why He created man at all, except to go to heaven if he gets saved .... and hangs on.

God wants a vast family of Son's who will be just like Him but of flesh and bone and the program of producing them can only be by pro-creation. That is the only way they can be brought into existence. Because Adam failed they all now have to be created again. That is called the second birth; "Born Again", a "New creation in Christ".

Can at least that much be understood? I believe this is the proper starting point for anyone's understanding.

Try this understanding out for awhile and see if it isn't the truth of it.

Keep in mind here that in reality Jesus always was what He became in actuality but it all had to worked out through the finger tips of flesh and on the Mount that day He was tranfigured. That was His graduation day.

Ormly, exactly what did Jesus do to have graduated seeing He had not even gone to the Cross yet in these verses?

GOD was revealing UNLIKE YOUR VERSION: Quote
Ormly said,
[b]Keep in mind Christ was NOT the son of God[/b]

But what is John's warning:

1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

But in fact Christ is God who became flesh for US.

So to prove this Peter and a few were allowed to see the following event [i][b][color=CC0000] BEFORE Calvary[/color][/b][/i]:

Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

All false doctrines can be revealed by holding up the book of Hebrews.

David too said:

Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Thine enemies also include the fallen angels including Satan, before God even formed man of the dust of the earth.

*****1st Corinthians 15**** when CHRIST Puts all things under His feet.

To say that Adam 1, a formed being, was to be given this honor not only is not in scripture, but to say that he was, is to say God dethroned Himself or was about to, through Adam 1, and we all should have, if Ormly's philosophical interjection came to pass, we would have a NEW God all confessing Adam 1 as Lord of Lords and King Of King, (in Heaven) ???? and Earth and things under the earth etc, etc,

Ormly, please tell us where you are geting this. Are you reading everything ever written, Mormon, JW, all religions and co-mingling, not able to discern truth from lie?

In Christ
Katy-did

55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,

[b][color=CC0000]Before Abraham was, I AM[/color][/b]

And what did God say to Moses when Moses asked before going back to Egypt, who sahll I say sent me, and God said:

Tell them [b][color=CC0000]I AM [/color][/b] has sent you. I AM THAT I AM.

[b][color=CC0000]Exodus 3:14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.[/color][/b]

Jesus, BEFORE going to the Cross also declared

[b][color=CC0000] I AM[/color][/b] the resurrection.

Rather a bold statement on all parts here if he hadn't yet graduated.

Yet, it seems that these BOLD statements Jesus was making of Himself ....(before he graduated??),
brought the wrath of the Jews in rejecting the Anointed one. **Psalms 2:7

Love in Christ
Katy-did

Added/Edited for content and TRUTH

Ormly, do you know what "I AM" means?

Christinyou wrote:
Quote:

"Now ask the logical question: What would have been the outcome had Adam succeeded?"

He would have been still a created being, but would have lived for ever if he had of chosen the Tree of Life.

Adam must die in the ground to produce fruit.
As Jesus said, "Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

Jesus must die to produce fruit or He stands alone. We must be the same.

In Christ, dying in body, fully alive in Spirit and becoming fully alive in soul, by the renewing of our minds. Then complete in Christ:

Phillip

This was a reply I gave to another writer who was beginning to see what the issues were. Perhaps it might help us here:

Jesus needed to be sanctified because the flesh has to submit to the father.

I may have worded it somewhat differently, however, you are on to understanding what the issue was that Jesus demonstrated to us that we, by the virtue of new birth, are commanded to demonstrate in our flesh .... as He performed in His. I.e., "Thou shalt love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength".
It can be no other way that we strive that our love and allegiance to the Father be made perfect as Jesus' was. This is "striving" for the Kingdom and "the violent, by the new birth and revelation, take it by force".. "Let this Mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus". That Mind was the very Mind of the Christ from Glory, equal to the Father yet submissive to Him in all His dictates to Jesus, son of man, who obeyed from His flesh because He loved the Father. Christ never said to God "I object and wish to do something different with Jesus". Can the lips say to the heart, I object? NEVER! The magnificent thing here is that by virtue of His union with the Father in his flesh, Jesus, son of man-Son of God, understood it all and completely obeyed. As a result, He was full of Grace and Truth. God gave him, in "full measure", all of Himself that human flesh could contain without being "Transfigured".....And it happened! He was!!

In His 3 yrs of Earthly life, Jesus was sustained because of the Heavenly Vision that was given Him as a direct result of His obedience, full of Joy and overflowing with Grace. Read John 14 in this light. Separate out the difference between Jesus speaking from His human side and the Christ [expression] of God of Jesus perfectly joined to Him as He becomes to us, when we are begotten again. [1Pet.1.3] What a privilvedge we have that is obscured by an overemphasizing of His death, the "work of the Cross"; the redemption story. It is His Life that redemption can now make available to us, for our becoming as He is by, the "way of the Cross;"...... the process by which we are, "conformed to His likeness."

Quote:
Like adam when he was perfect, even though he was perfect before eating the fruit, if he refrained from the fruit he would have stayed sanctified, which is a form of being more sanctified because the flesh is in submition to the father. That make sence?

Here we must see that Adam was not perfect. He was only 'perfectly' innocent. Only God is perfect and Adam was to made perfect; be made Holy by a series of moral choices given him. He flunked the first series.... and there was no redeemer as yet to be the advocate for him to the Father who could/would plead his case. That would have to wait for 4G yrs.
In the meantime the making of sons for the Father, by procreation, would continue only now they would all have to be redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. We can read the history of those 4G yrs and view the struggle between God, who was determined, and ignorant man lacking in not only in his understanding but also a divine connection that would have procured a sustaining love to the Father, in his flesh. Everything was now from Law and sacrifices. The "way of becoming" was cut off from man. His very best in righteousness could never secure for him a place in the the eternal presence of God.

Enter, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin[s] of the world!

Jesus was God's full representation of normal man, man as God designed and intended him to be. By identifying with Him in His death [baptism into His Body, whatever way you wish to view that happening], we declare our commitment to become as His LIfe demonstrated. This places fresh impetus to the significance of damnation in this passage: "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 1 Corinthians 11:28-29 (KJV)

The interesting thing here is and I like the way Chambers views it; "Submission can only be between equals". However, we know that Jesus was obedient; He, because of His flesh, could only be so. Obedience is not submission but rather the recognizing of a higher authority over [in] you and the fear of the consequences if disobedient. This is human flesh here that I speak of being perfected by the Christ of Glory; the Christ now of His earthly life; Character of the Father.

Submission, on the other hand, could only be of the Christ of His earthly life who was equal to the Father; who could be the only one to say, as we read Jesus saying: "I came to do whatsoever the Father wills." The Christ of Jesus submitted to the Father's will. Jesus, son of man, not yet divine human flesh,obeyed the life that was of [in] Him. They were inseparably one in disposition.

The Father's will was accomplished. "It is Finished". Jesus Christ, the new Divine Human, is now the God of Eternity; Divine Humanity now equal with the Father, waiting for the Father to make His enemies His "footstool". Jesus Christ, Son of God rightly called is now in actuality, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords....with nail print prints in His Hands to prove it.

The Man Jesus, the "First of First Fruits". Will we allow ourselves to become like Him, .... as He was in His earthly flesh? That is what is before us isn't it, ......... if we say we born again of His Spirit?

This is human flesh here that I speak of being perfected by the Christ of Glory;

Ormly, our flesh IS NOT being perfected. Our FLESH is crucified with Christ. Our FLESH was put to death.

Do you believe Romans 6-8?

Or that Galatians say the flesh war against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.

Our flesh is and will always be the enemy of God and at emnity with God. God is NOT making us over to be what Adam 1 was to be...we are a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST. Old things pass away, behold I make all things NEW. Flesh and blood CANNOT enter the Kingdom of God.

Flesh and blood will enter the 1000 year reign, put under the ruling of an Iron Fist, called to pluck out an eye or cut off a hand if it offends. That's how HARD it is going to be under the 1000 Year Kingdom Reign.

But Jesus said "My Kingdom is not of this world".

Totally irrelevant as to what the "fruit" is intended "to be".

Galatians 5:
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[b][color=CC00FF]22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [/color][/b]

[b][color=CC0000]24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.[/color][/b]

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.