Kenneth Hagin and the Laughing Revival.

One of the most disturbing videos I have ever seem in researching and looking into Charismatic excesses on the web was this of Kenneth hagin. I really don't ever care to watch it again, it would break my heart. Its literally the demonic laughing at the state of lukewarm christians who are under the influnce and control of the devil and can't even hear the voice of the Holy Spirit to lead them out of the darkness of the fellowship they are in.Kenneth Hagin was a teacher in the popular Word Faith movement and has had a great influnce in many modern movements of Christianity.KENNETH HAGIN SHOWS HOW TO FALL DOWN (RealVideo 7:00 stream - Bible.ca)Please realize this is serious, its not a laughing matter we should be weeping at the state of the Church, I don't know what a true prophet like A.W. Tozer would do? I really don't! Why aren't people standing up jealously for the truth Lord?

I would like to pose a challenge to you who have posted in this forum, or anywhere for that matter, who have bashed Kenneth Hagin. The man was a true follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There are many people today, who want to laugh at him, and Christians like me, because we speak in Tongues, and because we study our Bibles and KNOW that we can speak on behalf of Jesus Christ, and that we are Sons of God, and heirs according to the promise. The comments you have all made about the Late Rev. Hagin, remind me of a story in the Bible when Jesus was laughed and scorned, and was told that He casts out demons, in the name of Satan. You might wish to look that one up, also you might wish to study your Bible a bit more, pray to the Lord to help you realize what the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is. I am not attacking any of you, I have love, and compassion for you. Since you took the time to post on here what you did not like about Hagin's teachings, then its obvious that there is a huge part of you, which wants to serve God to the fullest. Thats very admirable, so I'd just suggest instead of bashing what Hagin teaches, seeing as how it is what Jesus himself taught, go to the Lord in prayer, and ask for a Revelation of his Mighty Word. Remember, there is Mercy, and there is nothing but Love for everyone. And also remember, it is written that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. I have read alot of Hagin's books, and my Pastor was a graduate of Rhema Bible College. The Word of Faith movement, as it has been called, might as well just be called, The Word of God movement, because thats all these men have done. They have taken God's Holy Word, and decided to live by every single letter of it, not by what they wish to live by. All Christians everywhere need to be Baptised in the Holy Spirit, speak in other Tongues, then will they know the full truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So again I say, I'm glad to see so many of you here posting in this forum, and the passion with which you posted. But a passion that makes fun of anyone, is a passion given to you by Satan himself. You need to rebuke him in your life, and allow him no control over your tongues any longer. God be with you all, Mitch Miller

I would like to pose a challenge to you who have posted in this forum, or anywhere for that matter, who have bashed Kenneth Hagin.I or anyone else haven't bashed or 'made fun' of this man. I am seriously concerned about the fruit and this man's life and would say its not according to godliness. God is the judge of all men's hearts but the scriptures are very plain in stating that we who are truly of the body of Christ may judge, discern amongst ourselves and expose false teachings that don't align with the 'true gospel of Jesus Christ'. The distinction that you bring about that 'you are baptized in the Holy Spirit' and 'speak in tongues' so therefore everything that brother Hagin teaches is correct because they have that extra revelation and walk in God that most of us don't? that is wrong and truly gives a bad name to the deeper Christian life and of walking and having our movement as Christians in the spirit. Everything must be aligned to the Word of God! the holy Scriptures given to us.If the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' equals what I see in the video truly I don't want it. My spirit in my doesn't bear witness with the excesses that are happening and I weep over the way that Christ's spirit is maligned. I am being straight forward with you brother, I as a Chrisitan and a true follower of Christ do not agree with the manifestations and teachings that accompained Kenneth Hagin's ministry, and therefore do not have them up on this website. I am not saying that Kenneth Hagin could not be Christian or even yourself for that matter, but I do have the liberty to say what the spirit of truth leads to into and what it bears witness with and not.God has led me in this ministry to clearly show truth rather than naming and exposing darkness by showing darkness. In most cases I have simply been led to offer materials on this website that show the light of God and by listening and reading these resources people have realized what darkness is and have had a hunger for the pure truth of God, 'the truth that is in Jesus'. Don't ever be decieved there will be many gospels, many spirits, many teachings, but there is only ONE gospel, ONE spirit, and ONE teaching that is true and comes from above. Thats what God reveals and shows through the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures.

Yes Sir you are correct, there is ONE Gospel. And there is nothing that Brother Hagin has ever said, that does not line up with the Word of God. Every writer of the New Testament was Baptized in the Holy Spirit. They had recieved it, when people were saved in the Book of Acts, Paul showed up and prayed for them that they 'might recive the baptism of the Holy Ghost' This surely shows us that it is something we can recieve after Baptism. However, I have figured a little something out, I have found this website is based I believe, on Baptist 'Doctrine'. That can easily explain, why Brother Hagin isn't liked so much by people who like to post here. I was origionally a Baptist, however after hearing over and over again that Tongues was not for us, and then reading in the Bible how EVERY Christian is to speak in Tongues, and then also having the Baptists say that Healing isn't for everyone, yet The Bible says that By his stripes ye WERE healed. Not might be, not could be, but its already done. And for that fact, after I myself have felt God move in mighty ways in my life, I have realized that EVERY single Word of the Bible is fact. If you chose to doubt teachings of Brother Hagin, or any other so called 'Faith' man. Then that is your own choice, but as God himself has said, 'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge' Jesus Christ, has delegated his name to us, we can cast out demons, we can heal the sick, we can speak in a Heavnly language which talks directly to God the Father. I would like to know what exactly it is, you think Hagin has taught, that does not lign up with God's Holy Word. I can assure you, if you'd take the time to stop, ask the Holy Spirit to lead you through the Scriptures, you would find a new Revleation of Jesus Christ. I will keep you in my prayers,Mitch Miller

Yes Sir you are correct, there is ONE Gospel. And there is nothing that Brother Hagin has ever said, that does not line up with the Word of God.I would fully disagree with that statement. Kenneth Hagin taught false doctrines. Here is a few quotations from a book called "Charismatic Choas" on Hagin, I don't fully agree with all the presuppositions of the book but I do think he clearly states alot of these doctrines:--- As the name "Word-Faith" implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more that whom we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts. A favorite term in the Word-Faith movement is "positive confession." It refers to the Word-Faith teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word-Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your "confessions," that is, the things you say -- especially the favors you demand of God -- must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (Charismatic Chaos, p. 281). Word-Faith believers view their positive confessions as an incantation by which they can conjure up anything they desire: "Believe it in your heart; say it with your mouth. That is the principle of faith. You can have what you say" (Charismatic Chaos, p. 285).- Word-Faith is the fastest-growing movement within the professing church. It has involved two distinct but closely related factions: the Peale/Schuller-Positive/Possibility thinkers, with their roots in New Thought, and the Hagin/Copeland Positive Confession and Word-Faith groups, which have their roots in E.W. Kenyon, William Branham, and the Manifest Sons of God/Latter Rain Movement. In Hagin's book, Having Faith in Your Faith, he teaches that anyone can develop universal "laws of faith" to get what he wants. Hagin teaches that for a pastor or anyone to drive a Chevrolet instead of a luxury car isn't "being humble, that's being ignorant" of God's "law of prosperity" that works for "whoever you are," saint or sinner. "Having faith in your faith" is a far cry from what Jesus taught: "Have faith in God." [Other Hagin books that clearly detail his "theology" are How to Write Your Own Ticket with God (Tulsa: Faith Library, 1979) and Godliness is Profitable (Tulsa: Faith Library, 1982).] Hagin claims Jesus told him, "If anybody, anywhere, will ... put these [positive confession] principles into operation, he will always have whatever he wants from Me or God the Father" (Charismatic Chaos, p. 281).--Every writer of the New Testament was Baptized in the Holy Spirit.There is a very vast confusion over this doctrine in the current Christianity of our age. When most Christians hear about the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' they cring because they associate it will all kings of excesses and Spiritual choas. There is a life of absolute surrender where God takes control of your life filling you in every place with the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is a life that will beget spiritual fruit of gentleness, love, hope, etc and also the Spirit will lead you into all truth.I have figured a little something out, I have found this website is based I believe, on Baptist 'Doctrine'. That can easily explain, why Brother Hagin isn't liked so much by people who like to post here.Sadly brother you have missed the mark greatly here. This website ministry is "Christian" and cannot be labeled with a restricted label of 'baptist' or 'presbyterian'. This site consists of preachers from all denominations and sects but the commonality is that they were men that had the spirit of God and have a love for the truth.

Middle road?Hi and welcome to the site. 'middle road?' thats a dangerous road forsure I tend with many saints of the past to stay within the realm of scripture, revealed truth given us from heaven. I really don't see how the church of corinth could be compared to the scene shown in this video. Just think about it LAUGHING I just don't see it. And animal noises? come on Christians this is NOT God! To put Christians in the place of having to either agree fully with the things happening in Christian circles calling it a 'moving of the spirit' is not fair. I fully believe in the fulness of Gods spirit in the Christian life, the gifts of the Spirit and the amazing miricales that can result. And also the depths of Christ-like character that we can attain to and also depth of spiritual knoweldge the spirit can lead us to. But me disagreeing with certain circles of Christian experience does not nullify the truth of God and my possible attaining to this deeper Christian Life. I am rather pointing people into the best ways.. and leading them away from anything that is questionable and dilluted.

Thanks for the welcome, nothing like jumping straight into a fire.hehe yea I really dont enjoy talking and going into these things primarly I love just talking about scripture and about the deep things of God. :-) I know I am digressing from the content of the video, but lets use it to find the truth about what is of the Lord or not. I may be missinformed but didn't John Wesley have strange things happen in his meetings. Thats a great point yes in Church history many bizare things have happened but they are all in within boundaries setup in the scriptures. Here is a great excerpt from the text transcript of the message: Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Paris Reidhead (*I really encourage you to listen to this message)."This is the difference between twentieth century preaching and the preaching of John Wesley. Wesley was a preacher of righteousness that exalted the holiness of God. When he would stand there with the two to three hour sermons that he was accustomed to deliver in the open air and he would exalt the holiness of God, and the law of God, and the righteousness of God, and the justice of God, and the wisdom of His requirements! AND THE JUSTICE OF HIS WRATH AND HIS ANGER! Then he would turn to sinners and tell them of the enormity of their crimes and their open rebellion and their treason, and their anarchy, and THE POWER OF GOD WOULD SO DESCEND UPON THE COMPANY, that on one occasion it is reliably reported that when the people dispersed there were 1800 people LYING ON THE GROUND, UTTERLY UNCONSCIOUS! Because they had a revelation of the holiness of God and in the light of that they'd seen the enormity of their sins and God had so penetrated their minds and hearts that they had FALLEN TO THE GROUND!It wasn't only in Wesley's day. It was also in America, New Haven, Connecticut, Yale. A man by the name of John Wesley Redfield had continuous ministry for three years in and around New Haven. Culminating in the great meetings in the Yale Ball, the first of the Yale Balls' back in the 18th century. The policemen were accustomed during those days, if they saw someone lying on the ground, to go up and smell his breath. Because if he had alcohol on his breath they'd lock him up, but if he didn't, he had Redfield's disease. And all you needed to do if anyone had Redfield's disease was just take him into a quiet place and leave him until he came too. Because if they were drunkards, they'd stop drinking, and if they were cruel, they'd stop being cruel, and if they were immoral, they gave up their immorality. If they were thieves, they returned what they had. For as they had seen the holiness of God, and seen the enormity of their sin, the Spirit of God had DRIVEN THEM DOWN INTO UNCONSCIOUSNESS because of the weight of their guilt! And somehow in the overspreading of the power of God, sinners repented of their sin and came savingly to Christ."from the text transcript of Ten shekels and a shirt by Paris Reidhead. Full TranscriptI was also reading in some of the letters on Revival that Charles G. Finney wrote to many ministers and one touches on the subject of the occourence of people falling down in His meetings. And he draws a very clear line between a falling down over anguish of sin and revelation of God, over the more dubious kind of fanatical excitement that would render the body in a spasmodic enthusasim. "I have by no means done with the subject of excitement as connected with revivals of religion. In every age of the church, cases have occurred in which persons have had such clear manifestations of divine truth as to prostrate their physical strength entirely. This appears to have been the case with Daniel. He fainted and was unable to stand. Saul of Tarsus seems to have been overwhelmed and prostrated under the blaze of divine glory that surrounded him. I have met with many cases where the physical powers were entirely prostrated by a clear apprehension of the infinitely great and weighty truths of religion." - from finney's letter.He also draws a very clear distinction between the use of the mind during these occourences and persists that the intelligent thought patterns should be unhindered during these manifestations but as he would say even:"But the excitement produced when the Holy Ghost reveals God to the soul is totally different from this. It is not only consistent with the clearest and most enlarged perceptions of the intelligence, but directly promotes and produces such perceptions. Indeed it promotes the free and unembarrassed action of both the intelligence and the will." - from finney's letter.Please take the time to read this letter:LETTERS ON REVIVALS--No. 8--There are many other examples from Church History that if looking at in the right light you would realize there is a drast difference better much of the phenomena going on in Chrisitan circles in our day. Well I am sure the same things were happened in the past but they were quickly identified for what they were, they werent labeled, doctrinized and apporoved and promoted as many dubious characters are doing in our day.

....Here is a few quotations from a book called "Charismatic Choas" on Hagin,...First off I'd like to ask, instaed of telling me what some author wrote into a book, why not show me actual Scripture where God has said that what Brother Hagin has taught is false. We know that the Bible was written by Men, through the unction of the Holy Spirit, we know that all the writers spoke in Tongues. We know Paul himself said he was grateful he spoke in Tongues more than those in Corinth, who we also know were doing it out of the Perfect Will of God. So there is no way to contest, that Speaking in Tongues is for Christians yesterday, and today.As for what some of this book you quoted from said, If we do not believe that 'We will have what we say' Then we are calling God a liar..and we know that It is impossible for God to lie. I'll not spend alot of time pushing this subject on you Sir, I understand what its like to want to twist certain scriptures for your own good. I will however keep you in my prayers, and ask my Father in Heaven to reveal his Mighty Word to you. Thank you for the Godly debate, I really enjoy it. I would like however, to talk Scripture, lets not worry about what Hagin says, or what any other teacher says. Lets worry about what our God Above has said in his Holy Written Word. So Let me end asking you this Question, and I mean no offense, just want to know where you stand. Do you believe that Gods Word, the Bible we have today, such as KJV, or smoe of the Newer Translations, are Compltely accurate, do you think that every single Word of it, is correct, and divinely written? Sorry if any of what I've said seems harsh to you Brother, I dont mean it to be, I have never been one to debate much, but I have a Passion for Christ that will always get me to stand up for his Word. Thank you for your time, Mitch Miller

I'll not spend alot of time pushing this subject on you Sir, I understand what its like to want to twist certain scriptures for your own good. I will however keep you in my prayers, and ask my Father in Heaven to reveal his Mighty Word to you. I am not bending the Word of God to my own good. I desire so strongly for the truth of God to be manifest in my life and I am not willing to settle for comprimises of that full revelation of God. The Lord is our teacher and the Holy Spirit will personally guide us into all truth.1 John 2:27 - But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.Do you believe that Gods Word, the Bible we have today, such as KJV, or smoe of the Newer Translations, are Compltely accurate, do you think that every single Word of it, is correct, and divinely written? My personal preference for english translations in the King James Version 1611. There are small varations in most greek and hebrew manuscripts but I would say that the best manuscripts were used in the KJV bible translation. Many argue that the newer manuscripts found that they use for the new translations are more accurate. As for the words yes I believe the orginal languages were divinely inspired and written and that the bibles we have, have that inspiration but I would refrain from every single letter.. there are mistakes or not clear translations of original words but we can have faith in the KJV and other bibles as the Word of God.First off I'd like to ask, instaed of telling me what some author wrote into a book, why not show me actual Scripture where God has said that what Brother Hagin has taught is falsePersonally I have not felt led to look into his writings and especially to look into them just to prove the fallacies in his doctrine. I will try and take a look at some writings and get you more detailed ways that Kenneth Hagin taught false doctrines. Yes I do hope this can be a godly discussion with the intent for both of us and others to get closer to God and understand more about his servants and His word.

I am not adverse to the practice of spiritual gifts. In fact I go to a Pentecostal church and I have experienced the baptism of the Spirit so I understand the other side of the story. However when one goes into the spiritual gifts, one must never forget that there are going to be counterfeits of the gifts as well as false teachers. To ignore that is to ignore scripture and ignore the many warnings.Thank you sister Cheryl to share your heart and testimony about this topic. Also you have shared your resource in a tasteful manner I suggest everyone watches this free video clip from that site: Watch part 1: Look to the Leader - This video looks at the leaders of movements that have veried from the scriptures: Jevovah Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventist Church, The Worldwide Church of God, and then goes into movements such as: Word Faith. *(I would note the way the video approaches and teaches on the problem of this subject is not done perfectly or to my taste, but I think its worth watching).EDIT: After watching the entire 30 minute video I would say its not very conclusive and it even misquotes some of the Word Faith preachers, who do teach falsities but I am sure they could have been abit more careful in how they choose the quotes.

Hi again, I was not saying that it isn't totally unimportant what Hagin has said, I realize that we have numerous false teachers in our World today. I myself, grew up around quite a few. And still see more and more with each passing day. We have taken the Bible and watered it down to fit our lifestyles, that we stray from the true Word and allow anyything to go on in many Churches. Homosexuality is accepted in quite a number, Abortion is accepted, the list grows on and on. Many people today try to just ignore some scriptures or twist them to meet their own needs. If you do not like Brother Hagin, thats one thing, but to act as if he is a False teacher, ESPECIALLY when you tell me you have never taken the time to even read one book he's written, then you are stepping over a line. I have heard him, and I know he was annointed to Preach, and Teach, and called at times to be a Prophet. I am concered today that the Body of Christ is falling completely away from our Great Comission. And if you will recall, Jesus Christ said 'Thus it is written, and thus it behoved, Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentence and remission of Sins should be preached in my name in all the world. But tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem untill you be endued with power from on High.' We know that he was speaking of the Holy Ghost, the promise of the Father. We know that on the day of Pentacost, a great outpouring began. And that same Holy Spirit is here for believers today. So I guess the question I have for you all is this, where does what I am saying, differ from what you get out of the Scripture? Where do you not see, the necessity to recieve the Promose of our Father? The Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told them to wait, they couldn't not be a witness untill they had it. Mitch Mller

Personally I have not felt led to look into his writings and especially to look into them just to prove the fallacies in his doctrine. I will try and take a look at some writings and get you more detailed ways that Kenneth Hagin taught false doctrines. Yes I do hope this can be a godly discussion with the intent for both of us and others to get closer to God and understand more about his servants and His word.I have been looking on the internet and I have done so before on Kenneth Hagin, Rhema bible Institute and also the Word Faith Movement and here are some thing I found intially. (I think the major problem is that these teachers are unchecked and claim most of their teachings to be revealed from the Holy spirit, but sadly many of them are not consistent with the Scriptures):"Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth""The Incarnation," The Word of Faith 13, December, 1980"[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ""Zoe: The God-Kind of Life," 1989. pp. 35-36, 41"You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was...the believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth.""Word Of Faith" Dec. 1980, p. 14--Here is some documentation on the Word Faith Movement Also known as "Name-in-Claim-it," "Health and Wealth Gospel," "Positive Confession," "Word of Faith," etc.Ten Reasons to Reject WORD-of-FAITH Teachings

It was stated here that Hagin was a false prophet. That was said because Brother Hagin had said he would be alive when the Lord came. Brother Hagin, had at least two visions of the Lord that I am aware of. For one, we do not know if that is what the Lord meant, that Hagin would be alive, on an occasion where he saw him. Also, do you recall the stories of Jonah, we know sure and well that he was a Prophet, yet at one time in his life, he did not get the message clearly, and would not stand on what God had told him to. Are you saying because he messed up a Prophecy then, that he was False as well? We are so quick to call someone a False Prophet, because WE don't see every letter of what they said come to pass. And then we are quick to quote what other websites said, we are quick to say that 'Such and such wrote an article on the Word of Faith.. here is what they say' Why not go to God? Why not show me, why you think when Jesus said 'Verily verily I say unto you, that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe those things he said shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he saith?' Why not show me, why it is you want to consider Christ a liar, or at least, consider the Bible a liar. The New Testament is wirtten by Spirit Filled, Tongue Talking, Godly men. We are not mad, or angry at those of you who deny the Spirit to freely move in your lives, we pray for you. I am a Priest of the Living God, because I am a Son of God. I am a joint heir with Jesus Christ. I get to go where Angel's desire to go. I am more than a conquerer. I have nothing but Scripture to back up what I belive in. If its in the Bible , then I believe it, and that settles it. I asked before that you show me Scripture, where Brother Hagin has been totally wrong. The life of a Prophet is not an easy road, and sometimes, we miss it, we hear the wrong thing. But as long as we are quick to repent, which I KNOW Brother Hagin was, then God will forgive us, and use again when the Holy Spirit desires. You can dispute my words all you like, but my Words come to you on behalf of the Lord of Lord's and King of Kings. We have the Word of God in our posession, we have the Holy Bible to use as a Road Map for our lives. I can assure you Brothers and Sisters, that if you Submit yourself to God, resisit the devil, he will flee from you. Ask God for the Spirit of Wisdom and Knowledge, so that you can rightly divide the Word of Truth. Go to your Father in Heaven and thirst for his annointing. Jesus said if you are Thirsty come and drink and out of your belly shall flow Rivers of living waters. You HAVE to go to Him to get it. Thirst for his Spirit, recive the Comfortor that was promised to us. Take on the whole Armor of God, recieve the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, then go at the Word with a new vigor, a new passion, and a new purpose. That purpose being to take every letter of Gods Holy Word, and apply it to our lives, and to proclaim it from every mountaintop. From every home, every street, every country. I KNOW what the scriptures say, you can not dispute that Jesus made sure his followers had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on them before they began to be his witness. And thats what we are all made to be, his witness. I will keep you all in my prayers, and if you have any Scriptures you wish to debate me with, please, post them. I will be more than happy to help you shed some light onto the things of God which you seem to have passed over. Mitch Miller

Here is some documentation on the Word Faith Movement Also known as "Name-in-Claim-it," "Health and Wealth Gospel," "Positive Confession," "Word of Faith," etc.Also Sir, there is quite alot of heresy on that website from what I can see, that I the Word of Faith men I have heard, including Brother Hagin, ever believed. Lets not worry about what those people say, this forum was started in order to call one of God's children a 'false teacher and prophet' So lets go based on what Hagin himself, and God, has said. Thank you, Mitch Miller

... looks like you want to hold on tightly to Kenneth Hagin and his teachings which take scripture out of context,.....Actually as I have said over and over and over again, I am not standing here standing up for Brother Hagin, as much as I am here standing up for the Word of my God. His Bible is very VERY clear on the matters of the Holy Spirit. If you have Scripture, then please by all means, show me exaxtly where the Bible ever says that If you repent then you are still a sinner. Meaning, you are saying that if somoene get a prophecy wrong, they are then a false prophet. Thats the same thing as saying, well you sinned once, you are hell bound forever. Have you forgotten God's Grace? Have we forgotten as a Church that he forgives? I will sit and discuss the Scripture with you. But I will nto sit and discuss theology, or Theory. The Lord has made his word clear. Its like an article I just read on this website, someone was talking about the "Pentecostal' movement. And they claim that Speaking in Tongues, is not a sign of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. That can only show me, that whomever wrote that article, never once Read the book of Acts. Nor did they heed much to what Jesus taught while he was on earth. So again I say, if Hagin did not get a prophecy right, I am sure he was quick to repent. I never once said Jesus got it wrong, Jesus is not a man that he should lie. However what I was talking about, is that being mortal, we can not help but let our flesh get in the way at times. There is no person who has ever stepped onto this earth today, who has gotten every single Word from God correct in their lives. Weather it be something such as buy this home... go to this church.. or whaterver. All have fallen short of the Glory of God. To then go and ruin the reputation of one of God's children, is absurd, and a work of Satan himself. Hagin, and many other 'Word of Faith' teachers, get their Knowledge from the Bible. I would have to assume, you dispute that Smith Wigglesworth raised the dead? It is documented, historians can attest to that. Yet there are so many of us, who have grieved the Holy Spirit so much, that we quickly say.. "OH no.. thats not of God' because of course, Satan would heal people.. or raise the dead? I do not think so, he comes to steal, kill and destroy. We want to be quick to say, "Oh those people are false teachers' And we love to say that, because we don't want to face the fact, that when we are sick, and are not recieving our healing, its because of our faults, we dont want to admit that our faith is weak, instead we want to make our God as weak as possible. But let me tell you this, and this comes to you in the name of the Lord of Lords Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God is all powerful. He has identified himself as The God who Healeth thee. And I can promise you, there is no where in the Bible, that you can prove what I KNOW is false. Read your Bible, show me exact word for word Scripture where God has said anything other than what I have said to you. lets stop with the petty 'so and so said this' and 'Well this is what I see' Lets talk scripture Brother and Sisters, let actually be Bold and pull out the Word of God, and stand up for what it says, regardless of how it might make us look to others, or how much it might make us change ourselves. Lets stop doing this make believe Christianaity, where we take only the few parts we want, and add in the rest of what we want. Lets take God at his Word, else we have little reason to even be here. God bless, and may the HOly Spirit guide you, Mitch Miller

Jonah was a true prophet, I never said he wasn't. However I did say that he didn't do as God instructed initally. So I just wonder why it is, you still adore him, yet you care nothing for Brother Hagin, who lived almost all of his life doing what the Lord instructed. Also, I have not heard the Prophecy of Brother Hagin's which is in Question. I can however say that he was not a false Prophet, because I know how the man acted, and how he lived his life. So please by all means, show me where I can find a copy of Hagin's actual words. NOt a website that was put up by some average Joe who only wants to demean the man, but a website where I can find trustworthy information. A video of the man giving the Prophecy would be best, or audio of it. Also, show me EXACTLY what Brother Hagin took out of context. You seem to want to say that this is how he spent his life, however you h ave showed me no where in the Scripture where what Brother Hagin taught is false. If you heard him give a prophecy, that you feel did not come true. Have you tried to find out if the man ever repented of it? Have you ever tried to find out if perhaps you heard the prophecy wrong? Or just perhaps, Brother Hagin told the propehcy to a small group of people at one of his services, and since then he went to each who was there, and apologized and had repented of it? I dont believe you are required to confess your faults to every single person in this world, so I seriously doubt Brother Hagin is required to do that either. Again, please please please, give me scriptures here, not on how to judge Prophecy, I know how to judge that. But give me the Scripture that you claim Brother Hagin has taken it out of context. It is time for so many Christians to stop playign games, stop twisting God's words around, and finally stop talking about what they do not understand. God has said his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. We need to ask for his gift of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. And we need to mortify the deeds of the flesh. It seems so many aroun dhere really need to ask God to give them patience, and love for others. Its really time to grow up and mature in the Word, stop running around pointing a finger, and instead looking towards God. So again, please by all means, show me what Brother Hagin took out of context. Show me an accurate account of his prophecy that you so greatly claim was false. Then, only then, will it even be worth the debate. So we aren't going on heresay, but instead are going on accurate information. Mitch Miller

Well, seeing as how the Lord said Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in is heart, but shall believe those things he saith shall come to pass. He shall have whatsoever he saith.' I would have to say, that my Jesus, is not a liar. So he ment exactly what he said. He doens't put 'restrictions' on it. Because we know that if we are saved, we will not ask something outside of God's perfect will for us. We wont go asking for sinful things, we wont go asking out of greed. We'll go asking out of God's perfect will in our life. The context is just what it says in the Scripture, they could not believe Jesus cursed the tree, and it withered, and Jesus told them right then, what Faith in God can do. It can move mountains for us, it can heal us, it can make us prosper, it can raise the dead. And Jesus will get glroy for all of it. What exactly, do you think is a 'restriction' on the Word of God? But yes, as for this book of Hagin's, I'd love to know the title of it, and what you seem to think is out of context. I would love to help you understand the Word of God more fully, and move into a stronger relationship with our Father. As for Jonah, yes, he got the message correct. But he certainly had no plans of doing what the Lord instructed him untill he was in the belly of a great fish. So all I'm saying, is that many of us will chose to think highly of Jonah, who would not open his mouth and say what God gave him, untill something HUGE happened in his life. But we will certianly be very quick to condemn a person who is very quick to speak when God moves them to speak. Its a very common practice of the Devil, attack the ones who speak out, and love the ones who keep quiet. We need to learn a little bit of how our enemy works I'm afraid. He has us sit and attack people based on 'ideas' not on Scripture. There has still not been one onunce of total truth to any arguement that has been given to me. Nobody has showed me one single piece of Scripture that Hagin took out of context. And even if you found one, have you never done the same? Since the moment you gave your life to Christ, were you 100% correct on every single part of the Bible? I dont think so. But I do know, that Brother Hagin, died a true Prophet of God. And I do know, that when I pass away years and years from now, unless the Lord comes first, I will be seeing him in Heaven. There is no Godly way to dispute that fact. So again, please, lets go to the Word, yes I know what Deuteronomy 18 says. And if something Brother Hagin said, never came to pass, then yes, it wasn't spoken from God was it? But show me one person, other than Jesus, who has EVER heard the Lord correctly in every single thing they did. Mitch

You say that Brother Hagin has taken out of context what Jesus said about Having Faith in God. Why dont you show me where you see he has taken it out of context. I'd really love to help you out some, and see you grow more in Christ. Mitch

Ok I can easily do that. This is a very small part of what was said by Brother Hagin at Kenneth Hagin Ministries Winter Bible Seminar 2003. You can find it in the Word of Faith Magazine, the April 2003 issues I do believe. If you really want it, I can proabbly email the .pdf to you. Anyways, here you go... (These are words that were spoken by the Lord through Kenneth Hagin)And this year, the year of 2003, is a year of preperation, its a year of seperation. There will be those who will seperate themselves from you, and walk in their own way, carry out their own plan, and have no power, and no glory, and no Spirit, but a deadness shall overtake them. But there shall be those who will respond in fullness and will say "Yes Lord, Yes Lord, I've missed it in times past, I've even been disobedient, forgive me" And remember that he forgives, remember that there is mercy. Remember that it is stated "Let us come bodly to the Throne of grace that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in the time of need. (Now that defintily has come to pass, if anyone accurately judges the year of 2003 looking back on it, we can easily see that even the Church itself is being divided. We have the one side who wnat God to be weak, who want Homosexuality, aborition, and a host of other sins, and then we have the Belief system that is in me from the Holy Spirit, which reads the Word of God, and takes every single Word of it to be truth, and applies it to our lives, and lives by it. There has indeed been a great seperation. And as for him saying some will come saying they have mised it, and been disobedient, that was me the Summer of 2003, I was living in so much sin, I didn't even like myself much. But I rededicated my life to Christ, BEFORE I ever saw this prophecy, and was Baptized in the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues. So I know, those parts are 100% correct)In that same prophecy Brother Hagin goes on to say that the end of 2003 will bring tears to some who sit right there while he is giving the Prophecy, he begins to weep, yet he never admitted it, it is believed he saw that his own death would occour later that year, or at least, knew a death would be at the end of that year. So without sitting and typing out the entire prophecy, I will urge you to look at it yourself. Its a wonderful message that the Lord has deliverd to us. Thank you, Mitch

Sermonindex, You told me I should hear some of AW Tozer, and a few other guys, I chose the Tozer fellow first off. And the first thing I downloaded, was (Hebrews - Part 32): Faith Demonstrated One of the very first things this man says, is that after reading the first few versues of Hebrews Chapter 11, he says that there is no definition of Faith there, or anywhere in the Bible. I would have to ask, why dont you look to him as a false teacher, instead of all these others. Because surely, we all know that Faith is definied as 'Now Faith is the substence of Things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen' See that.. "Now Faith is" is easily showing us.. that it is about to be defined. To say there is no definition of it.. I can't help but find that Tozer fellow, has a bit of ignorance in himself, to deny the Word. I guess the reason I posted this, is because I have slowly become aware that Brother Hagin has never been the problem. What I believe, and what I preach, isn't an issue, its not what turns you off to the things of God. Its still the false preaching you have grown up with. I will keep you in my prayers, and perhaps, will just have to not post so much here, because there really is little debating we can do, when you chose to belive in a man who completely rips out secitons of the Bible and says they do not exist. I will keep you in my Prayers, I will continue to make mention of you, asking God to give you the Spirit of Wisdom, and Knowledge. God be with you strong Sir, Mitch Miller

Hey all , I really am sorry if it seems like I am badgering you guys. I do not wisht o sound mean, but I can tell you all have such Good intentions, I'd hate to see you live your entire lives, lacking knowledge of certain things. I have listend to a few of the guys posted here on this site, Tozer being the most listened to, and I just thought I'd post this link to where you can view some of the teachings from my Pastor. http://www.nlconline.org/newlifeteam_broadcastarchive.htmlYou just need real player to view them. Thanks again for your time, Mitch Miller

To say there is no definition of it.. I can't help but find that Tozer fellow, has a bit of ignorance in himself, to deny the Word. I guess the reason I posted this, is because I have slowly become aware that Brother Hagin has never been the problem.Sorry I am really not having the time to look into all the heresies and wrong ways that hagin interpreted the scriptures. I will pray about this and really see if I can get the time to do this, I do care about you and want you to know the truth of God. To hear a man like tozer is to hear someone much closer to God than Hagin, A.W Tozer is a man esteemed most Christians in the 20th century and obviously Hagin and other false teachers would not quote him or go near him because he exposes their false Christianity.I would recommend you listen to this recording by David Wilkerson: Another Gospel

"Hagin claims to have received numerous visions, as well as eight personal visitations from Jesus. Hagin has written, "The Lord Himself taught me about prosperity. I never read about it in a book. I got it directly from heaven"- I am sure that you agree with the teachings of Kenneth Hagin about the prosperity teachings. He teaches that Gain is Godliness right? that the more faith and righteousness you have the more God will bless you like Abraham? This is a false teaching straight from the pits of hell but He said that he recieved this biblical teachings straight from the lips of Jesus? Another concern I have is not just with this man but with the legacy and impact he has had on the face of Christianity leaving a large amount of falsities behind him, this prosperity gospel is just one facet of this immenese problem and we could talk about that first. Here is a scripture on this issue that can't be more direct.1 Timothy 6:3-5 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.I would also like to note that I really don't enjoy debating but when both sides of the argument act in a spirit of gentleness and love from both sides than it makes it plausable to have a genuinely good ediftying godly conversation. I thank you for being willing to talk about this things frankly and with respect of the others opinion. As Cheryl said this is much to look into and if you are patient I am sure me and cheryl would be willing to discuss these things further.

Its obvious you want to discuss what you think, versus what the Bible actually says. I believe the Lord does not want me to be involved with this discussion anymore, because I do not feel you will stop talking heresay, and give me exact Scripture. You say Hagin is wrong, you've yet to show me scripture where he is wrong. I mean you are saying this Tozer guy, is a better man of God than Hagin was? Yet Hagin was able to live his life, and back up every single thing he ever said with the Word of God. While it is most blatent that Tozer calls my God a liar. In the mesage this Tozer fellow preached, he might have ment well, but on behalf of Jesus Christ I can say that this man was a mouthpiece for the Prince of LIes himself, he was being used by Satan to distort God's Word to where he wont even admit that Hebrews 11 even exists. Untill you can come to the understanding, that you can not take God's Word and bend it for your own will, destroy parts of it you dont like, and add in your own Demonic twists to it, there can be little of a discussion. I have recieved hardly any scripture, instaed I've several times been told to listen to Ungodly men preach ungodly messages, and do all that they can to destroy Christ and his Church. I will keep you strongly in my prayers, I fear for your soul, it is a very bad thing to see a good man go to a Devil's Hell. But I pray your eyes will be opened, if you can't even see a definition which is Clearly stated, trying to get you to see a bigger Revelation of Christ, is almost impossible. I love you Brother, I know you wish to be a true witness for Christ, but I think you need to study your Bible a bit m ore, take off those doctrine glasses, and let the Holy Spirit lead you. I know I am right in this, b3ecause I was once living in ignorance where you are right now, I thought I knew it all, and I thought those who Speak in Tongues, and follow Hagin, or any other Faith ministers, were just nuts. Yet, I had to admit, I have no argument against it. What they preach is truth, which is seen because Jesus himself is with them confirming the Word. Grace be to you Sir, may you find the truth of Life, Mitch Miller

I own Authority of the Believer, show me where exactly you are trying to twist Brother Hagin's words around? Just give me the page number, and I can explain to you the truth behind what you dont seem to understand.

(Now that defintily has come to pass, if anyone accurately judges the year of 2003 looking back on it, we can easily see that even the Church itself is being divided. We have the one side who wnat God to be weak, who want Homosexuality, aborition, and a host of other sins, and then we have the Belief system that is in me from the Holy Spirit, which reads the Word of God, and takes every single Word of it to be truth, and applies it to our lives, and lives by it. There has indeed been a great seperation. And as for him saying some will come saying they have mised it, and been disobedient, that was me the Summer of 2003, I was living in so much sin, I didn't even like myself much. But I rededicated my life to Christ, BEFORE I ever saw this prophecy, and was Baptized in the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues. So I know, those parts are 100% correct)A big thing that worries me is your classification of broad Christianity and how you can so easy lump them into 2 seperate catergories:1) Dead, orthadoxy devoid of the spirit and accepting of blatant sins ie sodomy, abortion, etc2) Spirit batized, speaking in tongues, only listens and grows spiritual from men that teach similar things ie hagin, copeland, and other word faith teachers.First off I would like to point again that you have misjudged this community online at SermonIndex, here we have mostly a group of christians from all denominations seeking after the fulness of God in everyway not just in power, or gifts, but in fruits, in the depth of the knoweldge of Christ, in the love of Christ, etc. We have people here who go to dry devoid churches in your estimation but are still spirit filled, led, etc. Also the argument of everyone speaking in tongues and this being a sign of the Baptism of the Holy spirit if cleary false and an extrememe, I would ask that we don't talk about that paticularly here but rather its been discussed in length in other forum threads here is one thread for example: Initial Evidence Paper

I do not have a broad idea of Christianity. There are only one group of Christians, and those are them who follow God's commandments. Who take the Word of God, and live by it. The rest, Sir, are just heretics, and disciples of Satan, not Jesus. To deny any part of the Word, is to deny Christ. can they still make it to heaven? I haven't any idea how to even begin to comprehend God's Mercy. So I can not speak about how much of the Gospel you have to believe, before you can make it to heaven. However I do know, that without Faith, it is impossible to please God. So for the Tozer fellow, and those whom agree with him, its a shame God told us that we have to have something to please him, then never once told us what that something is. Never bothered to define it for us. I dont' think the topic here can carry on much longer, I will keep you in my mind always, and hope someday to see you up in Heaven rejoicing around the Thone of God. I ask that you continue to study and pray, and I am sure God will fully revleal his Scripture to you, if you simply ask.Mitch Miller

If you do not believe God has set certain Laws, that even he must obey, why is it that you think people can be healed by the laying on of hands, yet, people die everday from disease and sickness? What kind of a God, would just pick and chose who he heals? And do you believe he kills? Do you think he says.. Ok.. Imma kill you today, yet Imma heal that other guy over there. Think about it for a bit, God has made a Covenant with us, that he can not break. To say he has no laws with which he has to abide, is to say that he is a Liar. And he is not a man that he should lie. Mitch

I dont' think the topic here can carry on much longerI don't think this topic discussion will last because you are not responding to things that are being layed out clearly for you in answer to your questions:1) the scripture I posted: 1 Timothy 6:3-52) the distinction I made of the holy spirit not just being about power and gifts, but rather and more importantly about fruit, love, and truth.3) I posted clearly about the prosperity gospel and asked you about it, and even quoted hagin himself.Please let me know if you are willing to respond to these points, I think if we keep talking past each other on the points of discussion that matter than that will result in a discussion that doesnt get to far.

What kind of a God, would just pick and chose who he heals?A soveriegn God.There are times where God does not heal but rather allows something to come upon a man for a reason. One example of this is in the book of Job where God allows satan himself to inflict the man, or rather if you read the scripture in the first 2 chapters more closely you will realize that it is actually God who kills job's family and also inflicts him with sores. Satan was the one that requested it be done and God did it to prove that this man's faith would hold strong in Himself.In the Acts of the Apostles they healed many, and even to a point where the shadow of peter would heal a man. But if you read the new testament carefully you will see a few places where there is sickness amongst even the apostles.1 Timothy 5:23 - Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.This scripture clearly shows that the apostle timothy had many sicknesses, does that mean he was lacking faith?2 Corinthians 12:7 - To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. God allowed a physical problem to happen to Paul the Apostle because He said my grace is sufficent.There are more examples if you want but I think this goes to prove a point that God does allow sickeness in believers and sometimes it can be for a purpose.

Ok let me try to shed some light onto those questions you had. First off, you said that because Brother Hagin has said Gain is godliness, that was a message from the pits of hell, or something to that affect, and you directed me towards 1 Timothy 6:3-5... Sir had you just went one more verse further, you would see where it is writtenBut godliness with contentment, is great gain. Also if we study this set of Scripture out, go back to the Start of the Chapter, and read it entirely, we know Paul is warning us agianst Greedy teachers, people who are greedy, we know what greed is. And just because like me, Brother Hagin realized that God has given us health, and prosperity.. just because we take something that was given to us, does not mean we are greedy. It means we just decided to not allow Christ to die in vain on the Cross. This scripture does nothing to say that allowing God to bless us, is a sin. Just that we can not be greedy. We can not go and deman what God does not want us to have. Which for that matter, would be something a true Christian, would not do. And now to address your thoughts on the Holy Spirit, you said its not just about Power. I understand where you are coming from. And from the moment we are born, we have the witness of teh Spirit living in us. But the Baptism of the Holy Ghost which I am talking about, is that Spirit of Power. Jesus said 'You shall be endued with power, after that the Holy Ghost has come upon you... " So yes, the Holy Ghost is about Power. It is to allow us to walk closer to God. To be able to speak to him in a heavnely language, to cast out demons, to heal the sick, to do whatever we need to do in the name of Jesus Christ. As for the prospeity Gospel, I have heard that clip you sent me to. And I can tell you thats about as unintelligent preaching as you can get. Whomever that man is, I hope he found God before he passed on, if he has already passed on. But he was teaching about a false god, one who is weak, and powerless.

And just because like me, Brother Hagin realized that God has given us health, and prosperity.. just because we take something that was given to us, does not mean we are greedy.Ok so you state that you believe this popular doctrine that is prevading some Christian circles. Are you also trying to say that Jesus died so we could be healthy and wealthy? The passage in 1 Timothy 6 cannot be more clear towards false teachers using this doctrine in the time of Paul and how glib we are if we don't see it in our day:1 Timothy 6:1-21 - Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.After carefully reading this a few times you will notice that firstly Paul the apostle teaches that there is a doctrine about gain, and then he warns people not to live after these ways but rather be 'rich in good works'"men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."Matthew Henry Commentary - supposing that gain is godliness: Making religion yield to their secular interests. Such persons who are given to perverse disputes are destitute of the truth, especially those who act in this manner for the sake of gain supposing gain to be godliness. Good Christians will withdraw themselves from such.

I can entirely answer about what happened to Job. We do however know, that God had to give power to Satan to allow those things to be taken from Job. We know that Satan was allowed to destroy his life to a certain point. However would not allow him to be killed. And we do know, that Job repented of his Words against God, he repented for having doubt in him. And we know that in the end, JOb was stronger, and better off than he was to start with. God blessed him , perhaps that was God's way of making Job's faith grow, so he could recive more. God does not allow trials that he knows we will fail, he allows trials that will strengthen our faith. As for the scripture in Timothy, if we read in context the entire Chapter, we see Paul directing Timothy how to help people, laying on of hands, etc. So we can also take the 23rd verse and say that he is showing him, using the wine for medicinal purposes does not interfere with purity. Seeing as how he was talking about not hastily laying hands on a man before. We know that we have to allow some to use medicines, because they will refuse the laying on of hands. And lets say that we are saying this scripture, is intrsuction for Tinothy. We know that the emeny wants to make every Christian sick, and poor, and just pull them away from God as best he can. It is reasonable to think that Timothy was attacked by a stomach problem on several occasions. And his faith and prayer to God would cause that pain to go away, could go away for months, weeks, days, or even years. But The enemy attacks him again in the same place, to make him think, something major is wrong. So Paul is encouraging him, saying basically, Just dont drink water all the time, drink a little wine, it is a naturaly healthy thing for the body. Just because God can heal us, doens't mean I need to sit around and smoke, and hurt myself. The same way Paul is saying, all that water, isn't what the body needs, God made it differently. As for Paul the Apostle, we know that he describes the vision, then he says there was given a thorn in his side, a messenger of Satan to beat him. We also know that Jesus said his Mercy is sufficient, AND we also know that Paul was happy that he had to endure that, it was something he was glad had happend to him, because it showed him that no matter what came against him, God was bigger, and that was all he needed. It wasn't done just to hurt him, God only made Paul stronger. We know that with every test and trial that comes up, God has already made a plan of escape. So yes, we may be tested, yes we might have a stomach pain, or any other sickness come upon us, however we also know, That God has already seen that would happen, and before the foundation of the World, he planned our escape, so that we do not have to continue in that. So we know that its God's will that EVERYONE recieves healing. Or else he never would have put his Son Jesus on the Cross for us. Mitch

Maybe you need to look up what the word 'greed' means. Because I can assure you, taking something that is GIVEN to you, is not Greed. Its just recieving a gift. God has given us the gift of salvation, its just as easy to heal us, as it is to save us. To say that taking your healing or prosperity is greed, then you are saying being saved makes you greedy.

I know where you are coming from brother because I have been there. It is quite normal to defend those that you may have learned under and often very difficult to hear what others are attempting to say not because they have a particular agenda but they too love the truth and want to be of some help.Again I will say, I am not defending Hagin entirely. I am defending God, because you are calling his Words false. Mitch

Are you also trying to say that Jesus died so we could be healthy and wealthy?I dont have to say Jesus died for those things, the bible Cleary says so. Isaiah 53:5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.1 Peter 2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healedWe also know that God promised Abraham he would bless him, he would make him exceedingly prosporous. And we also know that 'If ye be Christs, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise' So yes, I can easily say, in the name of Jesus, we are to be healthy, and prosperous. God doesn't want us to wallow in self pity, and be poor and sick. He loves us like we all love our own children.

Maybe you need to look up what the word 'greed' means. Because I can assure you, taking something that is GIVEN to you, is not Greed. Its just recieving a gift. God has given us the gift of salvation, its just as easy to heal us, as it is to save us. To say that taking your healing or prosperity is greed, then you are saying being saved makes you greedy. No you are wrong. Firstly you are making many points facts which I don't think are and many others would not think so on the outset.- "So we know that its God's will that EVERYONE recieves healing. Or else he never would have put his Son Jesus on the Cross for us."- "its just as easy to heal us, as it is to save us."- "To say that taking your healing or prosperity is greed, then you are saying being saved makes you greedy."You have clearly shown what you believe by repeating it eseentially 3 times in your last 2 responses. You are saying that God would never have sent His Son Jesus Christ to the Cross to die for our sins if he so called didn't die to make us also healthy and rich in this life! I think this is a heresy and is blatantly not found in the bible. I cannot believe that you can pass off the passage in 1 Timothy 6 and believe its not directed towards the teachers that are showing you these falsities. Our master Jesus was poor and lowly and was a servant to all. He became poor that we may become rich! (How dare you ever think that, that would be material riches, shame on your christians who teach it). How dare we live in luxury when our saviour gave his all for us, we need to carry our cross also. Christianity is a religion that counts the cost on this earth and our riches are soley in heaven. If you want me to start quoting the rest of the majoirity of the bible on this issue I can. I just don't see it any other way and all the men of God that I have put up in the audio sermons section don't see it anyother way also. If you believe that all the speakers on this site are apostate and have never really come to know the Scriptures in their fulness as you and Hagin and other so called teachers have then we have a problem.

I get that idea, because if you want to try and tell me, that God kills, God steals, God gives and God takes, and not listen to what God has actually said, then you are making him out to be a liar. And my God, is no liar. He is a God who loves me, who calls me his Son. I have been raised up with Jesus and seated in Heavenly places. He doesn't wnat me sick and poor, he wants me healthy and prosperous so that I can be his servant, and I can use what he gives me, and sow it into his Kingdom. And have I watched that particular clip? No Sir I haven't, I've never gotten it to work from this website yet. Though I believe its most likely one I have seen. And I have been in services where the Glory of God has been so strong, and the Spirit has been moving so strongly, that quite an amount of Amazing things have happened. I mean could you imagine sitting there on the day of Pentecost? Cloven tongues of fire coming down? I dont see why we read through that, but think that laughing, is something that would not happen. God has made a donkey talk, he was in a burning bush... yet laughing... not of God?

Dod you not read those passages I showed you? Do you think its just a lie where it says 'by his stripes we were healed"I mean you getting obviously mad, and not even bothering to realize, that Jesus wrote in the Gospels that it is just as easy to say thy sins be forgiven thee as it is to say take up thy bed and walk. Jesus said it! Its true! Its fact! In Timothy he is talking about Greed.. taking what my Father wants to give me, has nothing to do with Greed. It doens't even lign up with the definition of that word.

And for that matter, if you really think that we should live our lives lowly as Jesus did, then why dont you give up the computer you are using,give up the roof over your head, give up everything you have in your life. You seem to think your god wants you to live on the streets. The Lord has shown me today that at times talking to those who want to quench the Spirit is not as easy as I once thought it would be. I figured I could show you the Scripture, and you would belive it. But Glory be to God I have grown so much in one day, i now realize I have to pray for you, and just leave it be for now. I believe you truely want to Follow God, so I will pray for you Sir. I will pray you will see how ignorant in God's will for your life that you have become. Grace be with you, and may the Holy Spirit Guide you Sir. On behlaf of Christ I pray for you, Mitch Miller

How do you know it wasn't that wild at pentecost? It was wild enough, to where everyone who saw those guys said that they were drunk. And it woudln't just be the tongues that would make them think that.

Acts 2:13 Others mocking said These men are full of new wine

And for that matter, if you really think that we should live our lives lowly as Jesus did, then why dont you give up the computer you are using,give up the roof over your head, give up everything you have in your life. You seem to think your god wants you to live on the streets. You are speaking of a god of your own imaginations claiming him to be the almighty yet using him for your own purposes. Wretched men that we are who would use god as a way of our success and gain, our carnal appetites desire after the things of the world and surely to guise these frutions in a sense of godliness and doctrine is a pervision and mishandling of the scriptures that will lead people astray. You claim to know the God of the scriptures but the god you paint in our minds is a god of gain and sucess a god foriegn to the true god of scriptures.The Lord has shown me today that at times talking to those who want to quench the Spirit is not as easy as I once thought it would be. I figured I could show you the Scripture, and you would belive it. But Glory be to God I have grown so much in one day, i now realize I have to pray for you, and just leave it be for now. I believe you truely want to Follow God, so I will pray for you Sir. I will pray you will see how ignorant in God's will for your life that you have become. Grace be with you, and may the Holy Spirit Guide you Sir. You claiming of divine revelation beyond all of us including saints offered on this site such as: Tozer and wilkerson, leave me in a state of wondering how far can a man be decieved till he cannot even hear the true words of God. Dear sir if you are praying for me and fellow brothers and sisters on this site I hope you pray aright, and not only pray for others but yourself that you may be led into all truth. Me and others are not 'quencing the spirit' of God, rather there is such an extreme desire for truth and the spirit of truth in our hearts that we are not content without it or finding it in all situations. I would strongly suggest you watch this video: The Love of the Truth (video) by Art Katz.

I was just showing you Sir, where the Bible does say that those who saw them on the day of Pentecost, thought they were drunk. And thats what you are saying now about Hagina nd his group. That they are just acting to wierd. I'll keep you all in my thoughts, I know if you pray for the Spirit of Knowledge and Wisdom you will recive it, God has already assured us of that. And regardless of what Satan is yelling into your minds, and putting in your hearts, Letting God give you what he wants to give you, is not Greed. God bless you all, Mitch

I havne't backed off of anything, so much being said here, I might have missed something. Please repeat what it is you want to me to tell you again. I can assure you , I have Scripture that shows I am right. And I believe I've already shown every piece of scripture that was shown to me, how it was taken out of context and tried to mean something it didn't.

I know its not happening to me, because I use to be in the same boat you guys are in. I use to be sick all the time, I use to have so many problems, that no doctor or therapist could ever help with. And it wasn't untill I went before my God, and asked for his Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Knowledge and to be Led by the Spirit, and began to pray to my God in Tongues, that I fully became aware of the Scriptures. I KNOW I am not decived, God doesn't decive. And like I've said over and over again, I can back up everything I state with Scripture.

I have already adressed the God and Spiritual Laws. We know God has made a covenant with us, and we know that he can not break that covenant. Therefore, we know that he does have laws that he must adhere to. How can you dispute that?

As for Exodus 4:10, its simply a passage where God is showing a very nervous, very scared Moses, that he is all powerful, and it doesn't matter if he thinks he can't talk. Because God can make him whatever he see's fit. God can make him the best speech giver this world has ever known. Just like God could easily shut him up if he wanted to. He is showing him that he is the creator of all things, even if a person was born deaf, God still created them. Therefore God can still heal them, and will heal them, and will be with them.

I have never once said that man has authority over God. Neither has Brother Hagin, nor my Pastor, or any close ones to me for that matter. We have simply said, That God wants to give us these things, so we reach out in Faith, and believe what he wrote in his Word, and ACCEPT them. Not take them.. not be greedy and make him give them to us, But we ACCEPT them. I have never in my life overlooked the Cross Jesus was hung on. If you want to can all political correctness, and get right down to what God has said, then anyone who does not recieve Healing has rejected some of the meaning of the Cross. Anyone who denies Speaking in Tongues, has denied some of the meaning of the Cross. And Christ, is seated at the Right Hand of Power, God would be on the Throne I suppose. And I have never taken Christ off his seat, he is there making intercession for all of us. And he goes with his believers proving the Word with signs miracles and wonders. Here is the thing, Jesus said that he would confirm the Word, and that These signs shall follow those who belive. Jesus said that, you can look it up, its there. Who has had signs following them? Who has raised the dead? I know of course Jesus, I know Smith Wigglesworth has, I dont know who else. Who has healed the sick? I know of many, I know that I myself have. How did I do it? Jesus said i could! Jesus said we could use him name, whatsoever you ask in my name is shall be done. Jesus gave us Authority to use his name. The name which is above all names. So Sir I'm sorry, but I never once said God below me.

Are you willing to be wrong? Even if it challenges you to let go of some presuppositions?Have you not read where I've said that I use to be blind to the Truth like you are right now? Have you not read where I've said, I have been wrong in the Past. But I know, I know just as well as I know what my son's name is, that I am right about most of everything I believe in. Because just as Jesus said , he has CONFIRMED the Word. You can't say God doesn't want us to be healed, when you can watch someone speak the name of Jesus into a situation, and watch someone be healed. You can't say God doesn't want us prosperous when you can sit and watch someone speak the name of Jesus and watch someone go from having nothing, to being in a position to help others. To deny the things God has written to us, is absurd. To sit and say, God doesn't want to heal us, to sit and say that Jesus did not die for our sickness's as well as our salvation, is just abusrd, and it shows just how blatanly you are ignoring Gods Word. I have respnded in full to all your scripture references, what can you say for the two I have shown you?

I havne't backed off of anything, so much being said here, I might have missed something. Please repeat what it is you want to me to tell you again.I would like to say that alot of your comments mitch are uncalled for and you immediately throw me, others on sermonindex and even great saints like A.W. tozer and wilkerson into the same side of things that we are decieved and need to come to realize higher spiritual truth. You speak from a lofty precipise and state lofty things but in your comments and explainations of scriptures I don't see the spirit of truth evident in the way that I have read of men from the past. Unless of course God is doing a new thing and everyone in church history was in a sort of spiritual cloud waiting for the final outpouring of Gods revelation on the church in the end times through teachers like Hagin. (I am being sarcastic).I would ask only that you listen to the men from the past and not close your mind to understanding from God. Your quoting of A.W. tozer from his sermon on hebrews 11 is blatantly wrong and he is not teaching lies. A.W. Tozer is not a perfect man but he taught scripture from a desire for truth. I am feeling that its not even worth persuing this conversation much further because its evident that me and others on this site are lacking in your eyes and I think your only purpose for coming here is to clear Hagin's name in your estimation and claim that we are lacking spiritually.

...You speak from a lofty precipise and state lofty things but in your comments and explainations of scriptures I don't see the spirit of truth evident in the way that I have read of men from the past.....Of coures the way I speak, and the way Brother Hagin and many other Christians today speak sound different from those guys you so admire from the Past. As I said, one of those heretics you like so much, has gone to the point of saying that there is no definition of Faith anywhere in the Bible, EVEN after reading Hebrews 11. Its obvious, talking to you, is not something that can continue. You are so blinded, that you are following a man, who just removes parts of Gods Word when he sees fit. I would have to think that perhaps he had bad things happen in his life, and instead of admitting he was weak, he made God weak. However I will continue to pray for you Sir, the Holy Spirit will lead you through the Word and help you see the real truth if you will only allow him. Praise be to God, Mitch

There is no reason whatsoever to think that Healing is only given to us for our life after this. We already know there is no pain and sickness in Heaven. So why on Earth would God provide a way for us to be healed, in a place where we need no healing? God has made it clear in his Word, that those promises are for today. Have Faith in God, I Dare you all to believe the Bible Word for Word, not word for what you wanna hear word. Seek your God, he will show you the mysteries. Mitch

...What exactly is it that you are attempting to do here? Are you trying to be a help or do you only care about pointing out how spiritually blind we all are in your estimation?....I am doing exactly what Jesus Christ has comissioned me to do. That is to walk in his power, and use His name. And to declare the Word of God to the entire world. I stumbled across this website, and noticed how full of anger, and deception it was. And I decided to show some Scriptures to the ignorant here who have refused the Spirit in times past in their lives. I did just that, because Jesus would have me to do it. You can call me a false teacher, you can say that I'm wrong. But when you do that, then you are indeed calling Christ a liar as well. Because everything I have said about the Scriptures, is something God himself has said. I will continue to pray for all of you guys who refuse the truth. I can not carry this on any longer, even the Lord couldn't reason with people at times, so I surely know that this is one of those times when those I'm speaking to are so far from the Truth, I have to just put it into my prayer time, and allow the Lord of the Harvest to take over from here. I pray you all become more knowledgeable in His Word. A Son of God Forever, Mitch Miller

This Post also started because of the clip that was posted. Its interesting though, how the clip is put together to be shown as being one church service. But its not just one service, its at least two services. Look at the suit Brother Hagin is wearing when it starts, and look at the Suit he is wearing towards the end. We go from a grey suit, to a black suit? I mean come on, if you doctor things together like this, how on Earth can you sit and call yourself a Child of God?

A Dear Brother in Christ has given me some insight today. I do not agree with most everyone in this post. But I am sorry for any criticisms that I might have passed towards you, I hold no grudges, I do not wish any harm to come to any of you. Romans 14 has been a great help to me this day. So to you Brother who directed me there, I thank you. Again I say, that if any have been hurt by my words, I am sorry. I ask your forgiveness. If we do not agree, its understandable, I will speak the Word of God, proclaim it from the mountains if need be. But it is not my job to critcize. I will keep you all in my prayers, May the Lord be with you all forever. Your Brother in Christ, Mitch Miller

The first time that I heard it preached was by a man named Paul Schell (if you really want to talk about heresy in the church, check out this guy). Half the extremely charismatic church walked out half way through the sermon.Brother Aaron thank you for your post there was alot of helpful information in it. I would just ask you this one thing in light of the quote above. Why would you put yourself in a situation where you are listening to teachers that are obviously teaching falsities and even at times forcing you to walk out under vexation of spirit due to false precepts being shown. Why do we allow wolves among our midst and act like this can be normal christianity. I don't mean this against you dear brother directly but rather im trying to raise a bigger point that is happening in our day.Of coures the way I speak, and the way Brother Hagin and many other Christians today speak sound different from those guys you so admire from the Past. As I said, one of those heretics you like so much, has gone to the point of saying that there is no definition of Faith anywhere in the Bible, EVEN after reading Hebrews 11. Its obvious, talking to you, is not something that can continue. You are so blinded, that you are following a man, who just removes parts of Gods Word when he sees fit. I would have to think that perhaps he had bad things happen in his life, and instead of admitting he was weak, he made God weak. Ok if we are all blind and following false teachers ourselves why even fellowship among us. I really see no substance in your posts, just a weariness in our position in God and your prayers which seem more like accustations of our spiritual walk in God. I think as Jeremy stated either just start posting in response to actual quotes and also start posting the bible that you so highly esteem or really I don't think this discssion deserves that much more time in the direction its going. I say this humbly and respectfully.

Thank you very much for hearing my apology. Althought I can say that some of the clips I heard on here, such as the ones from Tozer, and the man who taught one on Beware of the Dogs, are not scriptual in the least, I can not judge the man. Did they go on to heaven? I do not know, because as I've said, I can not speak for God's mercy and grace. However I can judge the Word, and can tell you they are wrong in what they said.However, seeing as how this Thread was started based on a clip of Brother Hagin that no one can deny has been altered for personal gain by someone who does not like him. I do not see anymore need to post here. I enjoyed the lively debate, I hope God will bless you all. And perhaps I will see you on other forums and threads. Yours in Christ Jesus, Mitch Miller