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What are the Biblical views on providing family protection against evil people?

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I try to always remember in my prayers to humbly ask for God's protection for my loved ones and others in obviousness of much evil in the world today.

I have never yet had to face a great deal of situations in civilian live in defence of anyone. THANK YOU LORD and pray I never will be face that situation, such as with a home break-in by a burgular or some nut or demon posessed guy threatening bodily harm to one of my family members.

I have a daughter 33 years who is a police officer. That is all she has ever been since college. She barely stands 5 foot and 125 lbs and I pray for her often. If this situation were to occur, I would certainly would want to be present to help and would not hesitate to use any measure to make an effort to protect them, if it meant bodily harm or death to the offender. Of course apart from a weapon I would be almost useless in weakness due to my health. I might have one weak swing and then it would be over for me.


We know that families the majority of the time are separated each other in their jobs and tasks and travel. Really we should realize actually they are God's hands all the time, whether we be present are not. In my prayers, I always ask for HIS hand of protection over them whether it be a trip to the grocery store or a flight to another country.

Having said that: to get to the question and point. I must confess this, although I don't carry a weapon most of the time, I don't believe in anyway I could restrain myself, if I were positive someone was threatening a family member's life and safety or for that matter even a stranger's life. How many think this is a weakness in a christian to have this mindset? I have read some post that seem to indicate we as christians should not defend or harm anyone in any situation when they are a danger to others. Comments Please!!!!

[i][b][color=CC0000]EDIT:Thanks for all comments. A followup question to the thread please. To those who would choose to stand by and only pray and not defend your family. Would you or would you not call the police department in defence of your family in a life threatening situation to them?[/color][/b][/i]

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If this situation were to occur, I would certainly would want to be present to help and would not hesitate to use any measure to make an effort to protect them, if it meant bodily harm or death to the offender.

I personally have trouble with this. For one, I don't see any indication of Jesus or the disciples setting a precedent of defending themselves in practice or in speech, especially at the expense of others.

The decision to take another's life, no matter what the reason, means that at that very moment you are forever ending their chance to enter into a relationship with God. From then on, their eternity is sealed, and there is no hope reserved for them. I for one would rather trust God to be my protection than choose to use my hand to start someone's miserable eternity.

And imagine that testimony! "You can kill me if you would like, but I will not strike my hand against you because you still need the chance to embrace Christ as your savior, and that is the only hope you or any of us have from perishing forever!"

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How do these scriptures relate to this discussion?:

"But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -Matthew 5:39

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. -Matthew 5:44-45

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OK... well... here we go. :-)

I am a certified firearms instructor, I was in the Marine Corps for 2 hitches, and I am a gun owner. I've had extensive training in firearms. I am an avid hunter as well.

While I will agree with scripture that has been quoted, lets understand why that scripture says what it says. The underlying crux of those scriptures is so that we may represent God to that person who is doing evil to us. Showing mercy. Our house was broken into once when we were living in TN, and we knew within 12 hours who it was... and I did not retaliate. I forgave him. He had outstanding warrents, so he went to jail anyway when the cops picked him up, but we didnt press charges on this particular crime.

However, having said that... there is nothing in scripture that tells us that we should not protect our families. Any man or woman who refuses to protect their children from an evil person should have their children taken away from them. You wouldnt leave your child closed up in a car when it's 95 degrees outside, would you? Then why would you stand by and let a child rapist rape your child?

How would my wife ever be able to trust me if I did nothing while someone did evil to her?

It was understood all thru the OT law that self defense was completely acceptable. If you killed a man who was threatening your family, the OT Law did not hold you responsible for that death.

Now we're under a new covenant, and in part of that Christ taught us to turn the other cheek.

I agree with that! Christ was addressing how I should respond when evil is done unto [b]me[/b]. But too many Christians want to take this and apply it to protecting our loved ones too. Thats not what this scripture is talking about. It is giving me guidance for how [b]I[/b] should respond when [b]I[/b] am threatened or abused.

But in no way did Christ ever indicate that a husband or a father should stand by as evil men commit evil acts upon their families. In fact, I believe it is a godly man who will stand up and protect their familes, and an evil man who will refuse to.

Now, I'm not talking about protecting material things. There is not a material thing in my house that I would kill or die for. I am strictly talking about protecting family from harm or death.

And some Christians want to take this even further and say that all war is evil, and Christians should never serve in the military. I wasnt even close to being a Christian when I was in the Marines, but my response to Christians who think that is... #1 you dont understand scripture, and #2 tell that to the 6 million Jews who were murdered in WWII. Christians are supposed to sit by and let men like Hitler just go on and do whatever they want?

Bad things happen when good men do nothing.

A "Christian" husband and father who will not protect his family is worthy of being neither.

Do y'all realize that in Kennesaw, GA they passed a law that all citizens (who pass background checks) are to own at least one firearm? Do you also realize that Kennesaw, GA is now considered one of the safest places to live in America? It's true.

Like I always say when I'm coaching football: "The best offense is a good defense".

Harsh post, I understand. But this is something I feel very strongly about.

And before someone thinks I'm paranoid or something, I love shooting sports. Thats why we have a lot of guns. Protection is really not high on the list. We love to target shoot, and we love to hunt. We have a youth shooting sports club thru 4-H, etc.

Krispy

PS: This is kinda ironic... I'm actually in the process of buying my wife a .38 S&W revolver for her birthday. Just dropped the purchase permit application off at the sheriff's dept yesterday.

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krispy-

I am troubled that you would write such a thing and not provide the scripture to support it. I recommend a book titled "The kingdom that turned the world upside down" by David Bercot. (I have one copy I will send for free to anyone who is interested) I used to think along the lines of krispy until I was confronted with clear scriptural evidence in this book of my calling to non resistance in violent situations. The early church fathers also believed in non resistance.

...my response to Christians who think that is... #1 you don’t understand scripture, and #2 tell that to the 6 million Jews who were murdered in WWII. Christians are supposed to sit by and let men like Hitler just go on and do whatever they want?


I believe you greatly error brother... first of all what are those scriptures that I don’t understand. Second of all, is God sovereign? Was He sitting in heaven during WWII ringing His hands in a panic over hitlers army. Did He have an emergency meeting to rebuke His son for telling His followers to turn the other cheek and not to resist an evil man? Was there a last minute attempt in heaven to change His eternal word to allow for this unforeseen event so that all of the good Christians could stand up and resolve the situation by murdering other human beings in direct contradiction to the words of the master?

I am not being sarcastic for the sake of being sarcastic.... please ponder these thoughts.

In Christ - Jim

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Jim, I dont know you, so allow me a presumption here... but it's easy for someone to say they would sit back and allow someone to commit dispicable evil acts upon their family when they have never been in that situation.

"If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him," we are told in Exodus 22:2. The next verse says, "If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

In other words, it was perfectly OK to kill a thief breaking into your house. That's the ultimate expression of self-defense. It doesn't matter whether the thief is threatening your life or not. You have the right to protect your home, your family and your property, [b]so says the Bible.[/b]

The Israelites were expected to have their own personal weapons. Every man would be summoned to arms when the nation confronted an enemy. They didn't send in the Marines. The people defended themselves.

In 1 Samuel 25:13, we read: "And David said unto his men, Gird ye on every man his sword. And they girded on every man his sword; and David also girded on his sword: and there went up after David about four hundred men; and two hundred abode by the stuff."

Judges 5:8 reminds us of what happens to a foolish nation that chooses to disarm: "They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?"

The answer to the rhetorical question is clear: No. The people had rebelled against God and put away their weapons of self-defense.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight," David writes in Psalms 144:1.

Clearly, this is not a pacifist God we serve. It's God who teaches our hands to war and our fingers to fight. Over and over again throughout the Old Testament, His people are commanded to fight with the best weapons available to them at that time.

They didn't have firearms, but they had sidearms. In fact, in the New Testament, Jesus commanded His disciples to buy them and strap them on.

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

I know you are going to cite Matthew 26:52-54 – how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest: "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

Read those verses in context and they support my position. Jesus told Peter he would be committing suicide to choose a fight in this situation – as well as undermining God's plan to allow Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection.

Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place – at his side. He didn't say throw it away. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was: "Peter, this is not the right time for a fight."

"They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon," we're told in Nehemiah 4:17-18. "For the builders, every one had his sword girded by his side, and so builded."

Is that enough scripture for you? The Bible clearly does not prohibit or condemn self-defense or protecting one's family... in fact, such things are ordained by God, and considered the actions of a godly man.

Paul said to Timothy "But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (1 Tim 5:8)

A godly man not only provides food and shelter for his family, but he also provides protection and safety. Period. End of discussion.

I love ya brother, but it matters not to me if you are troubled by my statements. I am partially convinced of a lot of things pertaining to the Christian life, but this is one that I am solidly 100% convinced of... and will not be moved.

Krispy

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here's a partial article by Larry Pratt... very good exposition on self defense and the Bible.

[b]Self Defense in the New Testament[/b]

[i]The Christian pacifist may try to argue that God has changed His mind from the time that He gave Moses the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 or the provision for justifiably killing a thief in Exodus 22. But the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that this cannot be, because "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). In the Old Testament, the prophet Malachi records God's words this way: "For I am the Lord, I do not change" (Malachi 3:6). Paul was referring to the unchangeability of God's Word when he wrote to Timothy that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Clearly, Paul viewed all Scripture, including the Old Testament, as useful for training Christians in every area of life.

We must also consider what Christ told his disciples in his last hours with them: "...But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a sack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" (Luke 22:36, emphasis added). Keep in mind that the sword was the finest offensive weapon available to and individual soldier - the equivalent then of a military rifle today.

The Christian pacifist will likely object at this point that only a few hours later, Christ rebuked Peter who used a sword to cut off the ear of Malchus, a servant of the high priest in the company of a detachment of troops. Let us read what Christ said to Peter in Matthew 26:52-54: Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more that twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?

It was not the first time that Christ had to explain to the disciples why He had come to earth. To fulfill the Scriptures, the Son of God had to die for the sin of man since man was incapable of paying for his own sin apart from going to hell. Christ could have saved His life, but then believers would have lost their lives forever in hell. These things only became clear to the disciples after Christ had died and been raised from the dead and the Spirit had come into the world at Pentecost (see John 14:26).

While Christ told Peter to "put your sword in its place" He clearly did not say get rid of it forever. That would have contradicted what he told the disciples only hours before. Peter's sword was to protect his own mortal life from danger. His sword was not needed to protect the Creator of the universe and the King of kings.

Years after Pentecost, Paul wrote in a letter to Timothy "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever" (1 Tim. 5:8). This passage applies to our subject because it would be absurd to buy a house, furnish it with food and facilities for one's family, and then refuse to install locks and provide the means to protect the family and the property. Likewise it would be absurd not to take, if necessary, the life of a night-time thief to protect the members of the family (Exodus 22:2-3).

A related, and even broader concept, is found in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ had referred to the Old Testament summary of all the laws of the Bible into two great commandments: "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and your neighbor as yourself'" (Luke 10:27). When asked who was a neighbor, Christ related the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37). It was the Good Samaritan who took care of the mugging victim who was a neighbor to the victim. The others who walked by and ignored the victim's plight were not acting as neighbors to him.

In the light of all we have seen the Scriptures teach to this point, can we argue that if we were able to save another's life from an attacker by shooting the attacker with our gun that we should "turn the other cheek instead?" The Bible speaks of no such right. It only speaks of our responsibilities in the face of an attack-as individual creatures made by God, as householders or as neighbors.[/i]

[b]Conclusion[/b]

[i]The wisdom of the framers of the Constitution is consistent with the lessons of the Bible. Instruments of defense should be dispersed throughout the nation, not concentrated in the hands of the central government. In a Godly country, righteousness governs each man through the Holy Spirit working within. The government has no cause to want a monopoly of force; the government that desires such a monopoly is a threat to the lives, liberty and property of its citizens. The assumption that only danger can result from people carrying guns is used to justify government monopoly of force. The notion that the people cannot be trusted to keep and bear their own arms informs us that ours, like the time of Solomon, may be one of great riches but is also a time of peril for free people. If Christ is not our King, we shall have a dictator to rule over us, just as Samuel warned.

For those who think that God treated Israel differently from the way He will treat us today, please consider what God told the prophet Malachi: "For I am the Lord, I do not change..." (Malachi 3:6).

[a]"When our forefathers wrote the constitution of the United States, consciously or unconsciously they followed the Israel system of the right of every man to keep and bear arms. [The Second Amendment] was patterned after the Israel method: when every able bodied man capable of bearing arms and who might be called upon by the nation for military duties to defend his country, his life, liberty and freedom was thus able and prepared to take his place in the ranks of the army.

"Tyranny, as a rule, arises from within a nation when the government has been captured by men who would use their acquired power to oppress the people. These facts were known to the framers of the constitution, hence they recognized the need and right of citizens to keep and bear arms in order to insure real liberty. God in His wisdom...made it a fundamental law in the land that every man should be a part of the military forces of the nation-keeping his arms and equipment in his own possession.

"Now the right of citizens to keep and bear arms is fundamental in preserving true freedom, so much so that subversive forces in sundry and subtle ways first move to disarm the citizens of a nation which they later plan to dominated. We have witnessed such move in the past while states which have already passed laws violating Article II of our constitution did so under the pretext of disarming the criminal. The states which have violated this fundamental principle of the protection of its citizens against armed violence have not only failed to reduce crime but have contributed to the increase in violence and crime. The criminal, who never disarms, knows he is dealing with law-abiding unarmed citizens. Honest men and leaders never fear an armed, law-abiding civilian population."
Howard B. Rand, LL.B., Digest of the Divine Law, (Destiny Publishers, Merrimac, MA, 1943) PP. 163-164.[/i]

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BradW

You know, I just get the oddest feeling whenever I hear of things like this. As far as I know Jesus, I cannot understand how any person could see Christ taking up a sword (or gun) and killing someone.

I must confess that in my understanding, God used the Israelites as a tool of judgment for the many nations that went to war with Israel. True??

But now, being in the new covenant, hasn't God set aside a day of judgment? (Mt 11:24, 12:36; Mk 6:11; Rom 2:5; 2Pe 2:9, 3:7; 1Jo 4:17; Jud 1:6)

I think back (I think it was last year) when a gunman came into a church and in Africa?? and killed a number of saints and a number of Christians (especially on WND) were advocating church members to bring guns to church. Very Christ-like, huh? How in the world can we perceive Christ advocating this?!! How about in the last couple of weeks in the states?

It brings brings anxiety to my heart because more and more Christians want to carry a sidearm and become judge, jury, and executioner in our finite knowledge and wisdom. Men are fools and I think that this type of advice will more quickly bring about the Scripture that says that men will kill one another in God's name thinking that they are doing God a favor. (Sorry, I can't find it at the moment)

Now, I trust that anyone who owns a firearm, or holds this militant position, would have the restraint to not act in rage or impulse, but then again, it's better to trust in the Lord than in princes, or horses, or chariots, or muscles, or guns.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for protecting our families, but I trust that I would never go so far as to kill or maim a man (or woman) in the process. Have we no control or do we get swept away in the midst of emotion?

But I ask in closing: Where is our battle? On the earth or in heavenly places? What are the weapons of [i]our[/i] warfare? Guns??? Violence?? I think the Bible is quite clear on this.

IMHO
Brad

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BeYeDoers

I absolutely second Krispy's POV here. "Turn the other cheek" is not an exhortation to be a Neville Chamberlain or to let someone take your or your families' lives. It deals with persecution due to the faith...not a blitz assault or rape or burglary. Now, if someone steals our stuff, let them take it...Jesus did teach that. We are to love God, not stuff. Here is why Jesus' teachings on "turn the other cheek" CAN'T mean family protection.

1. Context doesn't support it--He is discussing persecution. A "strike on the cheek" is an insult that stings a little, not someone trying to take your life or home.

2. New Testament teachings cannot contradict OT. God cannot contradict Himself and Paul says ALL scripture is useful for doctrine. NT teaching does supercede OT, but it is simply a spiritual extension of it. When Jesus and Paul taught doctrine from "the scriptures" where did they get it from? The only scriptures they had were OT. As Krispy has pointed out, self defense and capital punishment were the law in the OT, and that doesn't change. Things like ceremonial laws are no longer practiced b/c the SPIRIT of the law was to point to Christ. Since Christ has been revealed, those laws have been superceded (NOT changed or abolished). Same with tithing, temple worship, etc. We should no longer be practicing those things b/c Christ has been revealed and the law of Christ supercedes (but not abolished). Our body is the temple, and all we have is God's. We are to give everything, not specific tithes to specific places, for they were just a picture of a spiritual truth.

A few more comments: Retaliation is NEVER allowable. Like Krispy's real life example, recompense belongs to the Lord...let the law do its work and we forgive.

Obviously, taking someone's life is always to be avoided if possible. If you can, RUN. Best as I can remember, the OT teaches that a man is not held responsible for killing during self or family defense, but it isn't commanded either. If they are defeated and no longer resisting, it then becomes murder.

Just my understanding and conviction.

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krispy and beyedoers...

Perhaps you guys are living in the wrong covenant... either way, I dont want to quarell... but we no longer are members of a physical kingdom, under a physical covenant, with a physical enemy and physical rewards.

2. New Testament teachings cannot contradict OT.

Matthew 19
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

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Brad... you have conveniently dodged the real question of this thread, which really is not about "self" defense. It is about protecting your loved ones... your wife... your precious children.

You say you cant see Jesus killing or doing injure to another... but I say there is only ONE God. I believe in the Trinity. I believe Jesus existed before the beginning of time. I believe Jesus is God. I know you do to. Therefore, I [b]can[/b] see Jesus issuing the Mosaic Law, and I [b]can[/b] see Jesus telling the Israelites to kill every living creature in the land they were to posess... and on and on. Why? Because these were directives from God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah.

The Trinity didnt start when Jesus was born of Mary. Read John 1:1. Are we to believe that pacifist Jesus went into another room when God destroyed nations, and order the death of those who violated certain aspects of His law?

I dont think so.

What about the Book of The Revelation? There is a lot of death and destruction going on... who is responsible for that? Are the death angels working on their own? Or do they have directives from the Throne? Is Jesus hiding away with His head under a pillow so He doesnt see all this... or is He actually in charge?

God is not a hippie, regardless of how Hollywood has tainted everyone's view of Jesus. We need to base our ideas of who Christ was on scripture, and not movies.

It's easy to say "we should turn the other cheek and do nothing to protect the ones God has entrusted to us" when it will probably never come down to it. Peter told Jesus he would die before he would let anything happen to Him. But when it came down to it... where was Peter? Cussing and lying and denying Him.

Krispy

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Perhaps you guys are living in the wrong covenant... either way, I dont want to quarell... but we no longer are members of a physical kingdom, under a physical covenant, with a physical enemy and physical rewards.

So you would do nothing while someone murders your family, Jim? Is that what I am to believe?

Krispy

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BradW

you have conveniently dodged the real question of this thread, which really is not about "self" defense.

I don't think I dodged it at all. I said that I'm all for protecting our families or others. Just not to the point of killing. My personal opinion, I'd rather trust God than a knife, sidearm, shotgun, or machine gun.

Let me ask you, what happens if someone breaks down your door and wants to kill your family (God forbid) because of persecution and not you? Do you still say, "prepare to meet God" and blow a hole through a guy's chest? Does that reveal the love of Christ? When Christ said to love our enemies, I think that anyone who is an enemy of my wife, wanting to kill her, would also be an enemy of mine. No?

If it's the middle of the night and someone violently tears into a house, are you going to shoot and ask questions later to see if it's persecution or not? I just think it's a dangerous line to walk trusting our own judgment.

You say you cant see Jesus killing or doing injure to another... but I say there is only ONE God. I believe in the Trinity. I believe Jesus existed before the beginning of time. I believe Jesus is God. I know you do to. Therefore, I can see Jesus issuing the Mosaic Law, and I can see Jesus telling the Israelites to kill every living creature in the land they were to posess... and on and on. Why? Because these were directives from God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah.

Absolutely! I agree 100%. When I say Jesus, I mean the Godhead. But I also believe, as I said previously, that He, the Eternal Godhead, has reserved things for a day of judgment. It is there that He will surely be revealed in all His Holy fury, and His garments being soaked with blood in judgment.

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So you would do nothing while someone murders your family, Jim? Is that what I am to believe?

Excellent question, poorly worded, slightly framed, and with a hint of straw man though...

2 Thessalonians 1:5 NIV
All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Krispy- It is not a question of if I would do anything to protect my wife and children who are precious first and foremost to God and secondly to me, it is a question if I would deny Jesus as my Lord by murdering someone against His teachings to keep them from harming my family.

I entrust all things to God. Christ left us an example to follow in this. I recently read in "Jesus Freaks" (accounts of persecution and martyrdom from voice of the martyrs) of a man in China (I believe) who was brutally tortured because he would not renounce Christ. After failed attempts by the communists to get him to deny his master they brought in his 10 year old boy and told them that they would kill the boy if the dad did not renounce Christ. The dad was about to buckle when the boy said to him dad, I have no wish to live knowing that my father denied the one who died for him. The boy was killed. Modern American Christianity, which is under the strong delusion that God has accursed it with, would tell you this is not right and look down on the man for doing such a thing.

Perhaps this is the root of why we don’t have revival in America, because even those interested in it would deny their master in deed if not word for something they hold more precious to them, their life or their family...

I am also reminded of Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand who were called in with all of the other ministers to the new communist government in Romania. Each minister was forced to pledge his allegiance to the government and in the process all but deny Jesus. Sabina said to her husband, you must do something about this open shaming of Christ to which Richard replied you will be left a widow and have no husband if I do. Sabinas reply...

I HAVE NO WISH TO BE MARRIED TO A COWARD ANYHOW.

What has been written in this thread only sounds good to carnal American Christians (even among the revival crowd) and is not the reality of the true workings of God even presently in persecuted countries.

I believe it necessary to twist the clear teachings of scripture or we would have to admit that we love our lives and our families more then the the one we call master.

I can assure you that my wife has no desire to be married to a coward or a religious hypocrite either. I pray that I would have enough reality of the eternal kingdom of God in my life to do as the men in the following account and not deny my master in word or in action. This is a very tough question and it reveals a lot about how Americanized we are.

In Christ - Jim

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Let me ask you, what happens if someone breaks down your door and wants to kill your family (God forbid) because of persecution and not you? Do you still say, "prepare to meet God" and blow a hole through a guy's chest? Does that reveal the love of Christ? When Christ said to love our enemies, I think that anyone who is an enemy of my wife, wanting to kill her, would also be an enemy of mine. No?

This is a completely different situation than the one we are discussing... and under those circumstances I do believe we are to turn the other cheek.

If it's the middle of the night and someone violently tears into a house, are you going to shoot and ask questions later to see if it's persecution or not? I just think it's a dangerous line to walk trusting our own judgment.

First off, I would never shoot first and ask questions later. I've been trained to assess the situation first. Suppose it's someone breaking in my house to get away from an assailent... or it isnt someone breaking into my house, but instead it's my brother coming in because he is concerned about us and is checking things out.

Secondly... if someone comes in my house and I have determind they have a gun... yes. They will be missing their knee cap in a matter of seconds. Then, if they wish to persecute me for my faith, I will not resist.

Krispy

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...That same year, Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand attended the Congress of Cults organized by the Romanian Communist government. Many religious leaders came forward to praise Communism and to swear loyalty to the new regime. Sabina said, “Richard, stand up and wash away this shame from the face of Christ.” Richard warned, “If I do so, you’ll lose your husband.” She replied, “I don’t wish to have a coward as a husband.” Thus Richard declared to the 4,000 delegates, whose speeches were broadcast to the whole nation, that their duty is to glorify God and Christ alone.

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...That same year, Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand attended the Congress of Cults organized by the Romanian Communist government. Many religious leaders came forward to praise Communism and to swear loyalty to the new regime. Sabina said, “Richard, stand up and wash away this shame from the face of Christ.” Richard warned, “If I do so, you’ll lose your husband.” She replied, “I don’t wish to have a coward as a husband.” Thus Richard declared to the 4,000 delegates, whose speeches were broadcast to the whole nation, that their duty is to glorify God and Christ alone.

And I dont have any problem with this, and I would I and my wife would do the same. However, in the context of this thread... this is not what we are talking about, and therefore is not relevent.

The original intent of this thread was to discuss protecting our loved ones from criminals and evil doers, this was not about turning the cheek in the face of persecution based on our faith.

I'm clueless as to why people dont understand that. It's quite simple, but as usual, folks want to take something simple and make it more complex than it needs to be. I suppose we all want to show off our intellect or something.

Krispy

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BradW



Let me ask you, what happens if someone breaks down your door and wants to kill your family (God forbid) because of persecution and not you? Do you still say, "prepare to meet God" and blow a hole through a guy's chest? Does that reveal the love of Christ? When Christ said to love our enemies, I think that anyone who is an enemy of my wife, wanting to kill her, would also be an enemy of mine. No?


This is a completely different situation than the one we are discussing... and under those circumstances I do believe we are to turn the other cheek.

I'll admit that it's somewhat different but not completely. Someone wanting to kill your family...same issue, different circumstance. Nonetheless, I'll cease with it.

Krispy, although I may not have satisfactorily answered your claim that I was dodging the issue, I think you've similarly been dodging the issue of showing the love of Christ to your/our enemies. Does the stance that you take reveal the love of Christ?

[EDIT] and I don't just mean enemies in terms of enemies of Christ. If someone is trying to harm you or a family member, they'd be considered an enemy

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I suppose we all want to show off our intellect or something.

dont go bee-ing envious of my smartz now kripsy. Both topics are closely related.

love in Christ brother - Jim

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moe_mac wrote:

[i][b][color=CC0000]EDIT:Thanks for all comments. A followup question to the thread please. To those who would choose to stand by and pray only to defend your family. Would you or would you not call the police department in defence of your family in a life threatening situation to them?[/color][/b][/i]


moe_mac orginal question:
I try to always remember in my prayers to humbly ask for God's protection for my loved ones and others in obviousness of much evil in the world today.

I have never yet had to face a great deal of situations in civilian live in defence of anyone. THANK YOU LORD and pray I never will be face that situation, such as with a home break-in by a burgular or some nut or demon posessed guy threatening bodily harm to one of my family members.

I have a daughter 33 years who is a police officer. That is all she has ever been since college. She barely stands 5 foot and 125 lbs and I pray for her often. If this situation were to occur, I would certainly would want to be present to help and would not hesitate to use any measure to make an effort to protect them, if it meant bodily harm or death to the offender. Of course apart from a weapon I would be almost useless in weakness due to my health. I might have one weak swing and then it would be over for me.


We know families the majority of the time we are separated from them in our jobs and tasks and travel. Really we should realize actually they are God's hands all the time, whether we be present are not. In my prayers, I always ask for HIS hand of protection over them whether it be a trip to the grocery store or a flight to another country.

Having said that: to get to the question and point. I must confess this, although I don't carry a weapon most of the time, I don't believe in anyway I could restrain myself, if I were positive someone was threatening a family member's life and safety or for that matter even a stranger's life. How many think this is a weakness in a christian to have this mindset? I have read some post that seem to indicate we as christians should not defend or harm anyone in any situation when they are a danger to others. Comments Please!!!!

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theopenlife

I'm undetermined on this issue. On the one hand I notice that Paul's friends were never fighting to defend him when he was being mobbed. He often fled at the urging of his friends. They did not barricade the apostle and set up defense, but rather basketed him and sent him away with his life.

When it is possible to avoid injuries to any party through flight, flight seems best. Jesus often evaded through a crowd.

However, such is sometimes not the case, as when a thief or gang decides to steal, kill, and destroy.

I know that, for the sake of my companions, I am empowered by the "higher powers... ordained of God" to execute restraint up to the point of death against assailants. If what you some of you write (such as Jim and Brad) is true, then you must believe that it is wrong for Christians to ever be involved in law enforcement and military service, because when it comes "time to kill" they would not be allowed to be a "terror to evil works". In this sense every civilian is empowered by the state to "bear not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil," so far as that civil servant acts within the law. In fact, in many cases a man would be guilty of a crime if he did not assist a person in need when it was in his power to do so.

Some thoughts.

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Krispy, although I may not have satisfactorily answered your claim that I was dodging the issue, I think you've similarly been dodging the issue of showing the love of Christ to your/our enemies. Does the stance that you take reveal the love of Christ?

Perhaps it's my military training... I don't know, but I could protect my family in the manner in which we are speaking of... and do it completely void of malice toward the one committed the crime. Therein, I believe, is the difference. You view it as vengeance, I do not.

To me, vengeance happens after the crime, not during it. This is when we choose to go and forgive instead of seeking vengeance.


Krispy

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BradW

I don't view it as vengeance at all. I view it as a retaliation, a response, a reaction. But does it show the love of Christ or are we the same as the world?

We can respond in a Christ-like manner or in a worldly way... with intentions of malice or not. You know as well as I that we can have all the best intentions to do something good and in the end it could turn out to be against God. Uzza just wanted to keep the Ark from falling and we know what happened to him.

theopenlife said:

If what you some of you write (such as Jim and Brad) is true, then you must believe that it is wrong for Christians to ever be involved in law enforcement and military service, because when it comes "time to kill" they would not be allowed to be a "terror to evil works".

I believe Christians can be involved, just not in the killing.

In this sense every civilian is empowered by the state to "bear not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil," so far as that civil servant acts within the law.

That's granting a wide license, but what is the law? You shall not kill.

In fact, in many cases a man would be guilty of a crime if he did not assist a person in need when it was in his power to do so.

Yes, we have power to kill but not license. And whose law are we ruled by Man's or God's.
For instance, man's law says that you can kill a baby up to 5 months. God's law says otherwise.

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That's granting a wide license, but what is the law? You shall not kill.

moe_mac wrote:
Is it kill or murder?
And the question was would you call the police department?

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I believe Christians can be involved, just not in the killing.

Thats unrealistic. So the Christian cop is supposed to call in an unsaved cop to do the killing for him? C'mon... now we're headed straight into silliness.

While he's waiting for the unsaved cop to get there, the criminal shoots 3 innocent people.

Dont run for sheriff in my county, ok?!

Krispy

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Thats unrealistic. So the Christian cop is supposed to call in an unsaved cop to do the killing for him? C'mon... now we're headed straight into silliness.

Krispy

You don't really think thats what he is suggesting, do you? Of course a cop calling someone else to do his dirty work is not being an advocate for peace! His hands would be just as dirty.

But perhaps a practicer of non-resistance in that line of work would be unrealistic. It certainly would not be easy (and probably not allowed)! The point he was making though, was that IF one was a cop, his actions would still have to reflect non-violence.

I would suggest we stay away from the emotional appeals when discussing these issues, such as what about the innocent people, or what about WWII, and instead focus on what does the Bible say, and where is God in all of this.

Is God's power to protect limited by our choice not to pull a trigger? I am pretty sure God is far more capable to protect us, our families, and this world than our automatic weapons and handguns.

This is of course, easier said than done. I don't care though. I just want to know what the Bible says about this (as do we all) and be personally transformed with enough strength and faith to live that way. I can't personally say I am there yet.

I hope we can continue without treating each others viewpoints as silliness, or over intellectualizing the issue. Nonresistance is very importance to many people. One of those people, from what I understand, was Leonard Ravenhill.

-K_DAY

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You don't really think thats what he is suggesting, do you? Of course a cop calling someone else to do his dirty work is not being an advocate for peace! His hands would be just as dirty.

Thats what he said... if he needs to clarify it, then let him. I quoted him in context.

I would suggest we stay away from the emotional appeals when discussing these issues, such as what about the innocent people, or what about WWII, and instead focus on what does the Bible say, and where is God in all of this.

No, I disagree... those examples have everything to do with what we're talking about here.

I hope we can continue without treating each others viewpoints as silliness, or over intellectualizing the issue. Nonresistance is very importance to many people. One of those people, from what I understand, was Leonard Ravenhill.

No disrespect to Mr. Ravenhill, but he wasnt diety. It is possible he was wrong about a few things... this being one of them. Just because he, or Wilkerson, or even Keith Green believed something doesnt mean we should automatically drop everything and follow them.

And who said I wasnt "non-violence"? Too many presumptions being made.

Krispy

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Kday wrote:
I would suggest we stay away from the emotional appeals when discussing these issues, such as what about the innocent people, or what about WWII, and instead focus on what does the Bible say, and where is God in all of this.


Moe_mac wrote:
Exactly one of the points this thread and questions reveals. If we consider God's Word was is our instruction book for our arrival in heaven alone and only? Why study it and search the scriptures? Does the Bible give instuctions for earthly living or not? There is absolutely no subject about the present life that God's Word is not applicable to in instructions. Could it be that many people could not remain comfortable in their present theology thinking, if certain issues are opening discussed in how the scriptures apply, and reveal exactly what is revealed in HIS WORD that applies to daily living in all areas of our life? The Old Testament has pictures drawn in words. They draw us a picture of just how Holy God is and what a glorious saviour we have in Jesus Christ.

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BradW

K-Day is right. I'm not at all suggesting that a saved cop should call an unsaved to kill a guy. As a man put in that position by God, I think that he can immobilize the criminal. No need to kill. Period. There are many other ways to take someone down without fatally wounding them. As a trained Marine, I suspect you know this Krispy.

No disrespect to Mr. Ravenhill, but he wasnt diety. It is possible he was wrong about a few things... this bring one of them.

You're 100% sure that you are correct? Is it possible that you're wrong?

I'll admit that I may be, and I'll concede if anyone can clearly show in Scripture how killing someone is showing the love of Christ in the situation that is being discussed here.

You have yet to answer that, Krispy. Show me how shooting/killing someone shows the love of Christ.

And yes, Moe-mac, I would call the police. But I did not say that I would only stand by and pray for my family. Let's be clear on that.


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You have yet to answer that, Krispy. Show me how shooting/killing someone shows the love of Christ.

How does shaking the dust of your sandels and walking away from someone who refuses Christ show love? How does not "casting your pearls before swine" show love? How did Jesus' rebuke of the religious leaders show love?

Where are we commanded to always "show love" to unrepentant sinners? We are to love "one another", and in that context it is speaking to believers about believers.

Paul condemned those who teach false doctrines, and commanded us to mark them and avoid them. How does that show love?

Scripture says "as much as possible" live in peace with others. Sometimes it isnt possible, and even scripture recognizes this.

Shooting someone who is posing a dangerous physical threat to my family does not mean I hate that person, or am not loving my enemy. After I neutralize the threat I would love nothing more than to lead that person to Christ... and I have read of instances where that has actually happened.

You're 100% sure that you are correct?

I dont say this very often, but on this topic, yep... I'm 100% sure. Thats not to be misundertood as arrogance, it is confidence.

Krispy

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Thats what he said... if he needs to clarify it, then let him. I quoted him in context.

Ok, a bit unnecessary, but point taken. I just thought it was fairly obvious that he wasn't implying such a ridiculous thing.


No, I disagree... those examples have everything to do with what we're talking about here.

They are related, but not everything. Doctrine isn't built on examples that we cook up (and I'm certainly not accusing you of that). I was just suggesting we spend more time talking about the Word than saying, yeah but what about if x is here and y is...etc...


No disrespect to Mr. Ravenhill, but he wasnt diety. It is possible he was wrong about a few things... this being one of them. Just because he, or Wilkerson, or even Keith Green believed something doesnt mean we should automatically drop everything and follow them.

I didn't even come close to suggesting that, nor was that anywhere in the realm of what I was saying. My point was people sincerely believe that (and even people we really respect), and it is very important to them. At the very least, we shouldn't just dismiss it as foolishness or intellectual blabble.

And who said I wasnt "non-violence"? Too many presumptions being made.

Can you show me where I said you weren't "non-violence." The word I used was non-resistance, and I didn't use any of those words to describe you one way or another. None of this is personal, man.

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BradW wrote:
K-Day is right. I'm not at all suggesting that a saved cop should call an unsaved to kill a guy. As a man put in that position by God, I think that he can immobilize the criminal. No need to kill. Period. There are many other ways to take someone down without fatally wounding them.

moe_mac wrote: As far as I know the police have gotten much better not being forced to use deadly force with the invention of the stun guns and other technology. And I agree that is the last resort and right thing to do, if possible. But if the ploice can't prevent deadly force at times and they are advanced trained and equiped as can be. How do you think a Father or a husband, especially old or in bad health could protect their family in such a situation without the deadly force? Or the miltary in their protectiive effort for the people either.

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What are the Biblical views on providing family protection against evil people?
Lock and Load!!

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K... I know I get a little passionate about this. Forgive me if I'm coming across stronger than I intend to. I deal with this all the time... we have an over-population of hippies and peace-niks here in the Asheville area. We had a shooting sports event a couple months ago and a bunch of them showed up w/ their dred-locks and pot and little protest signs... it gets kinda old.

They are related, but not everything. Doctrine isn't built on examples that we cook up (and I'm certainly not accusing you of that). I was just suggesting we spend more time talking about the Word than saying, yeah but what about if x is here and y is...etc...

I havent cooked up scenarios... and I wrote two lengthy posts earlier dealing with scripture and how it relates to this topic. I refer you back to those posts.

Krispy

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BradW

How does shaking the dust of your sandels and walking away from someone who refuses Christ show love? How does not "casting your pearls before swine" show love? How did Jesus' rebuke of the religious leaders show love?

Where are we commanded to always "show love" to unrepentant sinners? We are to love "one another", and in that context it is speaking to believers about believers.

Paul condemned those who teach false doctrines, and commanded us to mark them and avoid them. How does that show love?

Hold on now. You're talking about something completely different. Those examples are all in the context of spiritual dealings.

As much as possible?? I don't have to kill a man. I think that's a possibility.

I dont say this very often, but on this topic, yep... I'm 100% sure. Thats not to be misundertood as arrogance, it is confidence.

That's bold, my friend. Good for you and I hope that you are right. I also know that I won't kill a man. Subdue, restrain, do all within MY ability, yes...but not kill. I'm confident that God doesn't want me to do that.

Grace and peace to you all.
Brad.

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FreebyWord

I've put a lot of thought and prayer into this over the past year and this is where I am:

Can you see Jesus with 30 06 raised in the face of any man

Jesus said "love your enemies"; can you kill your enemy and love him at the same time?

With what is coming to America, the only protection we will have is under the shadow of HIS wings (see Cities of Refuge below). The prolific entities that will come against us preclude our protecting ourselves physically--maurauders, civil unrest, the inevitable enemy from outside America and on and on.

Last August 2006 one Sunday morning I cried out to God "Lord, Lord what are we to do." The Lord led me to the following scriptures, in the order He gave them. Read in order, these Words of scripture tell a story--explicit instruction for the hour to come. Receive them or not as God reveals His truth to you.

Following is God's instruction to me:

Joshua 21:27 (The Lord talks about, appoints) cities of refuge

Isaiah 27:4-5 Rely on my protection. Make peace with me

Jere. 31:20 I will remember Ephraim my son. I will have mercy on him.

Rom 8:4 Walk according to the Spirit

Psl 31:4 You will pull us out of the net they have secretly laid.

Acts 5:30-32 God hung Jesus on the cross, exalted Him to grant repentance and forgiveness to Israel. The Holy Spirit has been given to those who obey.

Zech. 13:7-9 Awake O sword against My shepherd and against the man My associate declares the Lord of hosts. Strike the shepherd that the sheep may be scattered and I will turn My hand against the little ones. It will come about in all the land declares the Lord that two parts in it will be cut off and perish but the third will be left in it. I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, They are My people, and they will say the Lord is my God.

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I havent cooked up scenarios... and I wrote two lengthy posts earlier dealing with scripture and how it relates to this topic. I refer you back to those posts.

You must not have read the part where I said I am not accusing you of that... It was a general suggestion addressed to the thread. In my experience, there is a general lack of scripture cited when people talk about this issue, especially NT scripture used to support self-defense/permissible violence.

I have read all of your posts, and have before I replied. Not everything is an accusation, OK?

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can you see Jesus with 30 06 raised in the face of any man

Only if you are talking about "American Jesus", the white middle class republican guy that many worship in place of the risen Christ.

In Christ - Jim

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Not everything is an accusation, OK?

Gee... I was trying to be nice! :-) I didnt take what you said as an accusation. I perfectly comfortable with my position on this. The only reason I'v involved myself as deeply in this conversation as I have is because no one else has really articulated from this side of the position other than me.

I really am not feeling defensive about this at all.

Krispy

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Can you see Jesus with 30 06 raised in the face of any man

Can you see Jesus opening up the earth and causing it to swallow up (i.e. kill) His own chosen people? God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit did do just that.

Also, when Jesus sent His disciples out among the people in their first venture into public minsitry is commanded them to "bear arms", as it were.

So lets dispense with stoned out flower child "Hippie-Jesus". Lets look at the real Jesus. The one in the Bible.

Krispy

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kripsy.. why not go out and start bombing abortion clinics then, seriously, where do you draw the line?

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Only if you are talking about "American Jesus", the white middle class republican guy that many worship in place of the risen Christ.

yea, we know only white middle class American republican guys are evil.

C'mon... lets discuss this, not be absurd.

Krispy

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kripsy.. why not go out and start bombing abortion clinics then, seriously, where do you draw the line?

Again... your being absurd. For one thing, it's [b]illegal[/b]. Abortion needs to be dealt with thru the legal system, not by murdering people.

It's not illegal to own firearms, and it's not illegal to protect your home.

Let's stay in the realm of realism, can we please.

Krispy

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C'mon... lets discuss this, not be absurd.

Seriously brother, atleast I make it intentional that I am being sarcastic, your last comment about Jesus holding a gun in the face of someone is almost blasphemy. I am exiting this thread.. I have said my peace and have nothing more of value to add.

Blessings in Christ - Jim

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FreebyWord

To all I pray peace over this forum. The enemy that strives to separate the body of Christ through dissention is having his way. Use your time and your energies to seek the will of our Father in this matter.

Krispy, "hippy"; I don't follow as I don't know what that means.

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Jim... how is it blasphemey? Did not God cause destroy nations? Did not God destroy those who blatenly disobeyed Him? I'm not saying Jesus would hold a gun to someone... but we're making Jesus out to be someone He isnt when we make him out to be all "peace and love".

God is love... but God is also holy, and has sentenced all mankind to death because of our sin. The only way out is thru Christ's blood.

The problem with the line of thinking on here is you're making a huge difference between Christ and His Father... but they are also one in the same.

Hollywood has truly effected the churches impression of who Christ is. Not the Bible.

Krispy

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Gee... I was trying to be nice! :-) I didnt take what you said as an accusation. I perfectly comfortable with my position on this. The only reason I'v involved myself as deeply in this conversation as I have is because no one else has really articulated from this side of the position other than me.

I really am not feeling defensive about this at all.

Krispy

Ok good, I'm glad we are on the same page then.

I think this is a very important discussion, and I just want to make sure neither side's opinion is being marginalizing the other. Hence any edginess on my side.

Thanks, bro.

-K_DAY

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FreebyWord


That's just it Krispy; Jesus will return as the LION of Judah. HE will smite the enemy, maybe through us after the latter rain falls on us. Rest assured those who rely on His protection, have made peace with Him, and are in that "inner chamber" will know.

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BradW

Last time I heard of someone shooting another person in the news, it was still illegal. Killing...still illegal.

Who's laws are we using to declare the legality of the issue? America's? Canada's? Thailand's? Man's? Or God's?

Also, as far as we know, Jesus never told the disciples to use their swords.

God(3-part)opening up the earth to swallow His own, rebellious people. Another OT example when God dealt His wrath immediately. Not so in the NT. Yet still the same yesterday, today, and forever.

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BradW

The problem with the line of thinking on here is you're making a huge difference between Christ and His Father

I think you're assuming that we're making a difference and that we think Jesus is a hippy...all love and peace. Not in the least! What is done by unbelievers is storing up wrath for the day of judgment where, like I said before, He will come with a sword and fury that goes beyond anything that we could possibly imagine that will make opening up the earth look like a hairline fracture.

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Last time I heard of someone shooting another person in the news, it was still illegal. Killing...still illegal.

No, you're misinformed. In most western countries at least, you are allowed to defend yourself.

Who's laws are we using to declare the legality of the issue? America's? Canada's? Thailand's? Man's? Or God's?

According to American law, as stated, we are allowed by law to defend ourselves. And I already addressed what scripture has to say about this... but everyone wants to pretend I didnt say anything about it, and no one has yet to show that what I wrote was wrong.

Ignorance is bliss... so keep ignoring my previous posts. :-) Be blissful.

Krispy

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Also, as far as we know, Jesus never told the disciples to use their swords.

Well that makes sense... LOL :-o

Krispy

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ok... now that everyone is riled up and calling me a blasphemer... I'm going to abandon this topic. I tend to think the main reason I'v taken so much heat on this is because most folks cant stand it when someone is completely confident in their convictions.

Have fun! Love y'all! (I really do)

Krispy

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BradW

No, you're misinformed. In most western countries at least, you are allowed to defend yourself.

Perhaps, but last time I heard of someone shooting another person that man was charged.

Who's laws are we using to declare the legality of the issue? America's? Canada's? Thailand's? Man's? Or God's?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


According to American law, as stated, we are allowed by law to defend ourselves.

Ok, just making sure.

Matthew 26:52-54 – how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest: "Then said Jesus unto him, [b]Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword[/b].

This is from an earlier post of yours.
Thank you for the judgment of being ignorant.

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Freebyword wrote:
To all I pray peace over this forum. The enemy that strives to separate the body of Christ through dissention is having his way. Use your time and your energies to seek the will of our Father in this matter.


moe_mac wrote:
The enemy, the adversary, the devil, is the one that wants us to ignore using God's Word and not to discuss God's views and word on everyday situations and in everything. The only people who don't have any peace discussing those things are those who are offended by what others believe the word of God to be. I see comments often that I do not agree with on this thread and others, but I am to strive not to be offended by the the post or the postee. What other people believe God's Word says and speak, right or wrong, has nothing to do with what another believes. I am delighted when I can say Amen to the things other people post and comfirm and learn from a biblical application in the whole council of God in which it the subject applies, which is very vast. God Word unites when it is accepted. It only devides when it is not accepted. My convictions and my compulsions are to tell what I believe to be truth from the whole council of God, and not force what I believe to be truth on someone else because that is an impossible task. We all have the option and the responsibility to confirm truth, determine what we read it is indeed truth and respond to it accordingly. Most of us are well seasoned in hearing people talk out of both sides of their mouth. They say they have the love of Christ, but yet would not defend their family or fellowman from being murderered.
ummmmmmm. Yet these same people would call the police to protect them in a life or death situation and also while dissing the military people who protect them and are the very reason they enjoy the freedoms they have. They are a God sent to us. God sets up and takes down governments.

The police often are required to take a life to save others in doing so, yet they will protest again another group of military people who have the same job and objective to serve and protect others.

It is amazing to me how some people spill out their anti-military rethoric and still yet not have the same thoughts and the same mind in dismantling their domestic police departments. Why are they not using using the same rethoric about saving a ton of money in that area as well and then just say we should just turn the other cheek when the evil people come to do harm to our loved ones. Are those overseas strangers not worth the same love as we are? Are they not important to God even though they don't know he is not Allah. As I said earlier, it seems to me to be taking out of both sides of the mouth. But each ones of us have their own choice and convictions and we should strive to settle it in our hearts how to give an answer to all these things.

The anti-protection military minded people rollover on military protection acts and if they become successful enough, it could eventually could remove any choice and any freedom in everything about everything until Jesus comes and settles matters of evil.
Thanks for the comments and God Bless.

We all are in agreement on the main thing,
Jesus is our Blessed Hope.

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FreebyWord

moe, I heard from God August 2006 on this issue when I cried out to Him one morning as I saw clearly His judgment is falling even now, and as we know, increasingly by signs of the birth pangs. I post again below His instructions to me personally. Take it to the Lord asking if they are His instructions for you:

Following is God's instruction to me:

Joshua 21:27 (The Lord talks about, appoints) cities of refuge

Isaiah 27:4-5 Rely on my protection. Make peace with me.

Jere. 31:20 I will remember Ephraim my son. I will have mercy on him.

Rom 8:4 Walk according to the Spirit

Psl 31:4 You will pull us out of the net they have secretly laid.

Acts 5:30-32 God hung Jesus on the cross, exalted Him to grant repentance and forgiveness to Israel. The Holy Spirit has been given to those who obey.

Zech. 13:7-9 Awake O sword against My shepherd and against the man My associate declares the Lord of hosts. Strike the shepherd that the sheep may be scattered and I will turn My hand against the little ones. It will come about in all the land declares the Lord that two parts in it will be cut off and perish but the third will be left in it. I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, They are My people, and they will say the Lord is my God.


P
pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,

Matthew 5:38-39
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:43-45
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Luke 14:25-35
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, [26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. [27] And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. [28] For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? [29] Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, [30] Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. [31] Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? [32] Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. [33] So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
[34] Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? [35] It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil.

Col. 3:1-17
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. [2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. [3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. [4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: [6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: [7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. [8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. [9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: [11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. [12] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; [13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. [14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. [15] And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. [16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

[17] And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Rev. 13:9-10
If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

To profess Jesus cost you nothing, but to follow Him will cost you every thing.

In His Love
pastorfrin

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sermonindex

I think Krispy is exactly correct in his overall analysis of how he would respond to such a scenario, but guess what everyone, NO ONE knows how they respond until God forbid they are in that situation.

I too am a military veteran with serious weapon training, but that doesn't give me a license to kill or to even be motivated about killing. I am simply stating that you all are so doctrinally and spiritually sound that it makes me sickened. You all think you really know what you would do in a given situation, but in the protection of my family and even my self in certain instances, I will defend myself to the fullest degree.

Answers like many on this thread is the reason why people do not respect, want to hear, nor do they want to entertain much of the self righteous talk and discussions that we so-called Christians present.

THink people, just think, it takes simplicity and a prayerful mind to make such decisions or to even come up with a conscious decision.

The Lord Jesus really understands and sees our hearts no matter how clean or ugly it may be.

Even many of these discussions are all flesh driven and flesh consumed. Instead of debating everything, please just bow out gracefully with an " I dont know ".


May our God bless us all
Ejg

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ejg wrote:
I think Krispy is exactly correct in his overall analysis of how he would respond to such a scenario, but guess what everyone, NO ONE knows how they respond until God forbid they are in that situation.

I too am a military veteran with serious weapon training, but that doesn't give me a license to kill or to even be motivated about killing. I am simply stating that you all are so doctrinally and spiritually sound that it makes me sickened. You all think you really know what you would do in a given situation, but in the protection of my family and even my self in certain instances, I will defend myself to the fullest degree.

Answers like many on this thread is the reason why people do not respect, want to hear, nor do they want to entertain much of the self righteous talk and discussions that we so-called Christians present.

THink people, just think, it takes simplicity and a prayerful mind to make such decisions or to even come up with a conscious decision.

The Lord Jesus really understands and sees our hearts no matter how clean or ugly it may be.

Even many of these discussions are all flesh driven and flesh consumed. Instead of debating everything, please just bow out gracefully with an " I dont know ".


May our God bless us all
Ejg

Ejg-

I think you might have missed the point of this thread. The point isn't how we would act in the situation, it is what does the Bible say about how we should act.

I admitted earlier in this that although I believe God would have me act non-violently in such as situation, per the example of Jesus and everyone in the NT without exception, I cannot say with certainty that I currently possess the courage and faith.

This does not mean that I don't hope and strive all the more to have that work done in me. We must constantly strive to lessen the gap between our head and our heart.

And maybe there are some on this forum who can say they are certain of how they would behave in that situation, but its not your job to judge the completeness of their faith.

To be sure, the Bible is full of individuals who have been presented with that test, and passed.

-K_DAY

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theopenlife

I had some more time to think about this issue today, and read all of your posts.

I had an unfortunate event this past year. A 26 year old man was referred to me. Someone from church vouched for him and said he was a decent guy, a "believer" who was looking to get out of his alcoholic dad's house long enough to find an apartment. I met him and asked questions, prayed, felt uncomfortable, but agreed to let him stay two weeks. He came over and saw my place, fancy computer and camera gear, and left. After I gave him the key he didn't come back for about two weeks, not a word.

One night I was in my room with a friend, a young woman, listening to a Spurgeon sermon. The door opened and in came the man with a second, much larger man. Apparently they thought I was home. I walked out to see the second man stick something quickly in his pocket,either drugs or a weapon. They became really tense and defensive. Both were high/drunk and neither knew Julia was with me. I had told her to stay in the office.

I was praying to God to get us out of this situation. Behind me back was an open hunting knife. I am capable of handling such tools, yet still handling two drunk men is probably beyond me. (Shamgar comes to mind, though) I thought, if this girl isn't saved and something happens to me, she's a gonner and the wicked have done great evil. I made up my mind and told the Lord, 'please get me out of this. If that man goes for his pocket, Lord you know I'll stab him. Please help."

I had no anger at him, no vengeful heart. I knew it was evil to leave the woman to suffer. It is not "evil" to defend oneself from a wicked man.

By the way, someone quoted the verse "do not return evil for evil." An example of that is keying someone's car because they slandered you. Just restraint and punishment is not evil.

Anyway, I asked the men point blank what they were doing in my apartment. They began acting very strange. I called Julia out and asked them to step out of the doorway and to let us leave. They did! As soon as we were out I called the cops who came and dealt with them.

I suppose I can only add this...

Not all violence is morally evil. It may involve inflicting physical evils, such as pain and suffering upon the one it comes upon, but violence does not necessarily make the person morally evil.

Example. Please carefully consider!! Someone you know is involved in a car crash. They are rushed to the hospital unconscious and a decision is quickly made without their consent that the only way to save their life is by amputating one of their mangled limbs. Though they will be in pain for months after this, we agree that despite the physical pain involved, the doctor is not guilty of inflicting moral evil for having operated on them. You see, inflicting pain is not necessarily a moral evil.

There is, I admit, a crowd that forever hates doctors and says all medicine and surgery should be exchanged for prayer only. Some of this crowd says the same of violence. It's not very different.

Now the situation changes. You walk into your home. You've just returned from baseball practice and have a bat in your hand. There is a man committing unspeakable evil in your home against someone you love. You try to resist him in a way that won't kill him but he is determined to kill you and continue harming the other person. There is no time to call someone else (other than God) to help. You pray a feverish prayer. The man does not drop dead. Now what? Do you feel guilty for having to beat the man to whatever extent to save the innocent? If you would do anything else, I expect you to be forever ashamed.

It's a tough situation but it's real, it happens everyday.

Conclusion: moral evil is committed for self gain. Do what you do in love for God's righteousness and to His glory. I am not yet convinced that there are not "times to kill" and that doing so may not somehow be to the glory of God.

Love.

S
sermonindex

theopenlife-

Thanks for sharing the story. I can only imagine what that situation must have been like.

I would, however, draw a different conclusion from that experience than you did - one that many on this thread have been trying to emphasize. In your moment of trial, you prayed and trusted in God. And behold! He delivered you and the girl from harms way without making a bloody mess! You yourself were powerless against those two men as you admitted. Thankfully Gods power is much greater!


Example. Please carefully consider!! Someone you know is involved in a car crash. They are rushed to the hospital unconscious and a decision is quickly made without their consent that the only way to save their life is by amputating one of their mangled limbs. Though they will be in pain for months after this, we agree that despite the physical pain involved, the doctor is not guilty of inflicting moral evil for having operated on them. You see, inflicting pain is not necessarily a moral evil.

This example isn't really relevant. Temporarily causing pain to heal someone is much different than using violence with the intent to hurt someone. Its a completely different scenario.

There is, I admit, a crowd that forever hates doctors and says all medicine and surgery should be exchanged for prayer only. Some of this crowd says the same of violence. It's not very different.

The difference to me, is the laundry list of scriptures that pastorfrin posted below (and many more) that specifically outline a Christian's response to evil/persecution/violence. Though believers are still instructed to put their faith in God for their health, the Bible does not argue for the immorality of physicians (Luke...). In addition, abstaining from violence is related to reserving vengeance for our Lord on that day. "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." Medicine doesn't fall under that category.


Now the situation changes. You walk into your home. You've just returned from baseball practice and have a bat in your hand. There is a man committing unspeakable evil in your home against someone you love.

Hypotheticals like this are the the part that remains unsettled in my mind, and makes me hesitant to call my self non-resistant (for fear that I can't live up to it). I don't yet understand what limits the Bible would place on my behavior in that situation. Definitely not killing the guy. I do know that we are not to "resist an evil person" and that "our weapons are not of this world." Reading the Bible shows me that the baseball bat is useless compared to God, and that love wins. Unfortunately, my faith doesn't yet live up to that statement. "Let us only live up to what we have already attained."


You try to resist him in a way that won't kill him but he is determined to kill you and continue harming the other person. There is no time to call someone else (other than God) to help. You pray a feverish prayer. The man does not drop dead. Now what?

Is God suddenly not God? Is this the point in which our trust in Him runs out and lands on ourselves?

Thanks again for sharing theopenlife. I would love to hear other stories like that of God delivering them from evil through His faithfulness. I remember reading many encounters of Brother Yun in the book Heavenly Man in which God supernaturally did just that. The power of God paralyzed his enemies at the mention of Jesus' name!

Lord, increase our faith.

T
theopenlife

"Is God suddenly not God? Is this the point in which our trust in Him runs out and lands on ourselves"

Unfortunately, it is in those fearful times that we realize how little we trust God to be God, or that we trust Him only so far as He is obviously working in our apparent favor.

Yes, I thank God that He delivered me.

I continue to believe flight is the ordained path.

The example which you felt is not relevant still seems relevant to me. The difference is that in the case of restraint, you are preserving your assailant from committing further evil. You are amputating his wicked action and delivering another's life.

I much appreciate the kindness of your post.

S
sermonindex

Matthew 26:52-54

Brad, you're trying to play "gotcha" by quoting a scripture I posted, but again... you have conveniently ignored everything I wrote concerning that passage.

Krispy

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Yet these same people would call the police to protect them in a life or death situation and also while dissing the military people who protect them and are the very reason they enjoy the freedoms they have. They are a God sent to us. God sets up and takes down governments.

Amen.

The police often are required to take a life to save others in doing so, yet they will protest again another group of military people who have the same job and objective to serve and protect others

Amen... in 1969 my father was spit on and called a "baby killer" because he wore a uniform.



It is amazing to me how some people spill out their anti-military rethoric and still yet not have the same thoughts and the same mind in dismantling their domestic police departments. Why are they not using using the same rethoric about saving a ton of money in that area as well and then just say we should just turn the other cheek when the evil people come to do harm to our loved ones. Are those overseas strangers not worth the same love as we are? Are they not important to God even though they don't know he is not Allah. As I said earlier, it seems to me to be taking out of both sides of the mouth. But each ones of us have their own choice and convictions and we should strive to settle it in our hearts how to give an answer to all these things.

Amen!

The anti-protection military minded people rollover on military protection acts and if they become successful enough, it could eventually could remove any choice and any freedom in everything about everything until Jesus comes and settles matters of evil.

It's been argued on this site we have no rights as Christians, therefore no believer should ever resist an evil doer. Thankfully for the Jewish people in the 1940's, not every believer thought that way. Imagine if we laid back and let the Muslims have their way... do you realize how many souls you would condemn to hell by this action? Make no mistake, the Muslims want to take over everything and completely eradicate anything that isnt Muslim. As they gain more and more control, missionaries have to vacate or be killed. Our Christian influence becomes less and less. I know this is the end of time, and that these things must happen... but we dont need our inaction to hurry things along.

Also, as a Roman citizen, Paul had certain rights. At times, when he was a prisoner, he had no problem exercizing his rights. In fact, at one point he faced cruel treatment, and when he informed the guards that he was a Roman citizen... they became fearful because of their intentions for him. Thats not "non-resistance", at least not as the idealists on this forum make it out to be. I get the impression some on this thread would councel Paul to "take your licks for the kingdon... you have no rights". But that isnt what Paul taught, and it isnt what Paul did.

As to our "rights"... we do have rights as Americans. Of course, everyone here knows that I believe our allegiance is to God. First and foremost, but He has seen fit to bless American with rights and privledges (thru several wars, I might add)... and it's those very rights and privledges that give folks the luxury to sit back and criticize those who protect and serve.

Krispy

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And just for the record... I'm not a trigger happy maniac. Any possible way to avoid violence should be taken. I am a combat veteran (Desert Storm), and am probably one of the only people here who can say "I know exactly how I would react".

However, I pray to God that I never have to be in that situation. When our home was broken into we were not home. My German Shepherd was... and thats how we knew who broke in. Whoever it was wasnt afraid of the dog because the dog must have known him. Our neighbor had a drug problem. Put 2 and 2 together.

He stole some stuff... money, medications like Tylenol w/ Codeine... etc. Like I said before, I have nothing in my possession that I would kill or die for. And if he had broken in while we were home I could have neutralized him without the use of firearms. He'd be a little sore the next morning, but he wouldnt have any holes that needed to be plugged.

There are so many ways to handle a situation. It doesnt always have to involve shooting someone.

I can tell you one situation that I'm not sure how I would react... if one of my children was ever molested. I'm not sure I could just let the law handle that. I know how I should react, but whether or not I could just sit back and trust the law to do the right thing... not sure.

But, by the grace of God, I hope to never have to worry about that.

I believe in the death penalty for child molesters and child rapists.

Fact is, there is evil in the world. And God uses men and women to restrain it. Without men and women who put their lives on the line everyday... and yes, at times use deadly force... well, I cant imagine how bad things would be.

Just be thankful there are people who think like me who will always be there to protect people who dont think like me. We make it possible for y'all to criticize us. :-)

By the way, please dont confuse my passion for anger. I'm not feeling any anger or anything over this thread.

Krispy

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Brother or Sister K_Day, I understand the thread quite well, if the test that you are referring to is to be passed with such non-retaliation or non violence in order to protect our personal families and domains then the HOLY SPIRIT alone will help us.

Otherwise we will do what is proper. Many of you here on this site really amaze me, we are all so "Christian-Like" and fully aware of what we would do that it is grossly nauseating not just to me but many, so just think how the unbeliever feels about us?

I am one who doesn't chime in often, I like to listen and get understanding. We are human beings not consciously capable all of the time no matter how holier than thou we attempt to come across to others, we need serious help. The Knowledge of the Holy or the Holy God himself has left the buildings(bodily temples, frame of minds) of many a long time ago. WE NEED JESUS NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE THINK WE HAVE....

If I feel this way, think of how the reveler or the unbeliever feels, and I have been around Christendom for over twenty years as lay and in personal ministry whether in another country, a building, on the street, door to door etc....

We humans need Jesus' spiritand his help in simple everyday life when it comes to spitual and life giving issues, and what we can do, we have been given the sound faculties to accomplish in our secular lives. Contrary to most, I believe that our holy lives is deeply tied into the secular aspect which makes it all the more holy.

Always Love guys and gals no disrespect or stones intended.

EJG

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Many of you here on this site really amaze me, we are all so "Christian-Like" and fully aware of what we would do that it is grossly nauseating not just to me but many, so just think how the unbeliever feels about us?

What do you mean by this, do you suggest that we all go grab a beer and talk about emergent theology with our uncoverted friends so they know we're really just like them, only we talk about a dude named Jesus?

In Christ - Jim

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I am simply stating that you all are so doctrinally and spiritually sound that it makes me sickened. You all think you really know what you would do in a given situation, but in the protection of my family and even my self in certain instances, I will defend myself to the fullest degree.

Perhaps you need to examine yourself then and not those posting on this thread?

In Christ - Jim

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Nice attitude, Jim. Someone spill your Wheaties this morning?

Krispy

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Brother or Sister K_Day, I understand the thread quite well

Its brother :-). Maybe you do understand the thread. I just wanted to be sure that you don't confuse discussing how we should act with how we would actually act. Like I admitted, I believe there is still discrepancy between my head and my heart in that regards. That should never stop us from discussing what is right to do, and it certainly doesn't merit calling any of us phonies, or acting "too Christian-Like." We all have our own struggle, and I haven't heard anyone on this thread claim otherwise. Don't think that because we discuss what is perfect in Gods eyes, that means we have already attained it.

if the test that you are referring to is to be passed with such non-retaliation or non violence in order to protect our personal families and domains then the HOLY SPIRIT alone will help us.

I don't believe I suggested anything different. That is precisely the point I've been making all along...

Otherwise we will do what is proper. Many of you here on this site really amaze me, we are all so "Christian-Like" and fully aware of what we would do that it is grossly nauseating not just to me but many, so just think how the unbeliever feels about us?

Not sure if this is just a handful of stones meant to hit a lot of people, or if you are referring to me, since thats who the post was addressed to. Read back over my posts and you will see me being very transparent about where I fall short in this discussion. I've even said more than once that though I believe I know how I should act, I am not sure how I would act. And that I pray that God closes that gap and gives me that faith. Is that what is nauseating to you? Perhaps you could be more clear about your accusations. I'm not really sure I understand where you are coming from, or how your comments relate to this discussion.

-K_DAY

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opps, I somehow just got involved in this thread again... these are sincere questions. I am wondering why some people only come on to post to say that what we are talking about is wrong. I do not intend any offense and am sorry for my poor wording that has conveyed a sour attitude as krispy has [lovingly :0)] pointed out.

In Christ - Jim

[*edit I stand by comments, just please take them with a spoonful of grace]

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Ignorance is bliss... so keep ignoring my previous posts. :-)Be blissful.
ahh man this thread is too funny :-P

I am simply stating that you all are so doctrinally and spiritually sound that it makes me sickened. You all think you really know what you would do in a given situation, but in the protection of my family and even my self in certain instances, I will defend myself to the fullest degree.
Well he's right there, I don't know what I would do if someone came into my house and started to attack my Mother. Do I stand there and start quoting bible scripture or speak in tongues?? I think I might grab the frying pan and conk him over the head or something. Come on folks, lets get realistic.

B
BeYeDoers

krispy and beyedoers...Perhaps you guys are living in the wrong covenant...

Krispy and I have adequately presented New Covenenant reasons for our stance. You respond with this clever one-liner that has has not in any way responded, but rather ignored, what we have presented. No response to this is warranted.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. New Testament teachings cannot contradict OT.
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Matthew 19
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

2 things:

1. Are you actually TRYING to prove that God contradicts His own word?

2. I think you actually made my point with this scripture. Jesus was showing them that their understanding and use of a specific law for a specific time for a specific people did not line up with God's "Old Covenenant" intent and spirit, which is eternally true that divorce is in no wise permissible, unless the marriage is broken by the unbeliever (or in this case, adulterer). Old Covenant and New Covenant agree, for Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but fulfill, uphold, and make it honorable.

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krispy and beyedoers...Perhaps you guys are living in the wrong covenant...

Bumper-sticker theology! The mark of the American church today.

Krispy

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BeYeDoers wrote:
krispy and beyedoers...Perhaps you guys are living in the wrong covenant...

Krispy and I have adequately presented New Covenenant reasons for our stance. You respond with this clever one-liner that has has not in any way responded, but rather ignored, what we have presented. No response to this is warranted.


[size=medium][color=0000CC]moe_mac wrote: I guess that is why Jesus said HE was to be about HIS Father's business and to do the will of the Father right. If we are in Christ, He is our Father also. Did the Father tell us in HIS WORD anything about what HIS will was? I realize I am not Krispy, but felt the need to reply. Are we to be like Jesus?[/color][/size]

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Bumper-sticker theology! The mark of the American church today.

Acutally love of self and family more then the teachings of Christ seems to be the mark.

Krispy and I have adequately presented New Covenenant reasons for our stance. You respond with this clever one-liner that has has not in any way responded, but rather ignored, what we have presented. No response to this is warranted.

I do not believe your reasons are sound. I presented a post on page 2 I believe that are valid to the points. This is an american chrsitian teaching, that we are to kill other human beings. You will not find it in the early church anywhere until the apostacy under Constantine supported it. I will continue to turn the other cheek as Christ clearly commanded (and has a very broad applciation).

I also provided scripture to show that we are to wait for the Lord to operate vengance on those who abuse us. This was the mind of the early Church and is the mind of the persecuted Church that is seeing genuine revival across the globe. So seeing as we have a difference in interpretation of (pretty serious) scripture, I am less opt to be pursuaded by american chrsitians who by and large have no idea what it means to walk in the eternal reality of the power and kingdom of God.

In Christ - Jim

M
MaryJane

Greetings

I have thought about this post and others like it on many occasions. I have to say that in all honesty I do not know what I would do or how I would react. Its something that has caused me many sleepless nights of fear and worry last night being one of them. The question what would I do??? What if??? It plagues and looms about me. After much prayer, and much time spent with the Lord the only conclusion I can have or come to is this, I know what Father has opened my eyes to in His word and I know that above all else I want to follow and obey Him so in the end I pray that if I am ever faced in that moment (and I desperately pray this does not happen) that Father would show me how to respond. That He would give me clear understanding, action and guidance. That I would not rely in any way on self or worldly wants, desires or thoughts. It is a very difficult and painful thing to loose someone dear to you, due to the act of any kind of random violence, rather it be a drunk driver, a thug breaking into our homes or government and religious persecution but when all is said and done, my heart filled desire is “Let me live my life in submission unto Him and Him only no matter what the price.”

In His strength not my own
Mary Jane

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I am less opt to be pursuaded by american chrsitians who by and large have no idea what it means to walk in the eternal reality of the power and kingdom of God.

It's become very chic and cliche to bash American Christians. You're painting with too broad a brush, my friend. I'm more afraid of throwing around condemnation like it was candy than I am answering to God for protecting the little ones He has given me charge over.

By the way... I notice you're still living here.

(Jim, I love ya, bro... even on those rare occasions when we dont agree. :-) )

Krispy

B
BeYeDoers

Jim, Paul was CLEARLY discussing persecution in 1 Thess. We all agree that we are to take joy in persecution and not resist it. Someone breaking into your home and threatening the lives of your wife and kids, or someone blitz assaulting you, or raping your wife or mother is NOT persecution. You can't take and handful of verses and blanket them over the rest of scripture.

You keep blurring the lines and making this leap from protecting our family to advocating that we all carry machine guns and look for fights. NO ONE here is advocating we kill other human beings. Nor are we promoting "an eye for an eye". Vengeance belongs to the Lord.

Biblical example: Moses was in sin when he avenged the death of his Hebrew brother. He sought out the killer and became the aggressor. BUT God gave the law for protecting your family, and if by unfortunate consequence the offender was killed, the blood was NOT on the father's hands.

There is a clear distinction between murder and killing (aggressor v. defender).

This is not an "American" anything. It's the Bible.

H
HopePurifies

If someone came and attacked a person under my care- I'd definitely pray- I'd pray for the strength to bust in his kneecap and for a quick arrival of the authorities.

God is totally for defending the innocent. That is clearly stated in much of the Bible. God STILL loves justice.

I can't believe someone retorted against what God said about the sword yielded in authority (to put fear into those who would be evil)! I sure wish I could find the scripture, I must not be using the right keywords, but anyway... who are you to judge God's word?

And just like they said, there is a difference between persecution and theft, than evil men coming to randomly kill or rape you.

So yes. If a man tries to kill or rape me, and I can't run, I'm stabbing his eyes out, and if you think that's a horrible thing for me to do... shame on you. As much as I'd love to lead him to Christ, while he is attempting to defile me is not the time and if he dies that's unfortunate, but it really isn't my problem.

God may very well have decided that the person's death would be meted to him by the defense of one of His victims. None of us know when our judgment is nigh!

S
sermonindex

Brothers/Sisters:
In this thread, we discussed a situation in which we could all face at anytime and we all pray we don't. I am not angry with anyone about their comments on this subject and it appears everyone gave their comments as they understood the Word. When we review the history of the church and how evangelism progessed in the most effective way, we see people standing against evil and evil people. When that ceased to exists, the devil has free reign until Jesus comes and takes him out. Sure we can talk about how long it took Paul to get from Athens to Corinth and probably not get near as much friction with each other or talk about which version of the Bible we prefer. However, if we can't relate God's Word to todays happenings, then we are missing the whole point of HIS Word. I agree with our comments need to be done with respect for others, and I get to blunt myself often and apoligize for it, but at the end of post and the end if the thread, if we have all gave what God laid on our heart, then we have accomplished much more than we think. To stay away from today's issues is exactly what the devil wants We can be thankful on what happened 2000 years in our Blessed Hope, but we cannot act as if it has no bearing on everyday life. What happening 2000 years ago has everything to do with our hope today in Christ. He lives today, he is not in the tomb. The devil is saying don't let HIS WORD have anything to do with today. Just discuss the history. Far too many (so called preachers) and (other people) promoting these (so called preachers) who are just tickling ears in the pulpits on Sunday morning trying to win the approval of men, and are afraid if they preach the whole council of God they will offend someone when relating God's Word to everyday situations. When Paul and others Apostles gave their life for it and we are too thin skinned to get our feeling hurt in discussing it. Just some thoughts. If we are not using HIS WORD for a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path for today's issues, then we are not seeing very well.
God Bless.
moe_mac

moe_mac wrote:
The enemy, the adversary, the devil, is the one that wants us to ignore using God's Word and not to discuss God's views and word on everyday situations and in everything. The only people who don't have any peace discussing those things are those who are offended who want to be. I see and hear comments often that I do not agree with, but we are to strive not to be offended by the the post or the postee about present issues. What other people believe God's Word says and speak, right or wrong, has nothing to do with what another believes, but what "thus saith the Lord", not just in one passage, but the whole book. I am delighted when I can say Amen to the things other people post and confirm and learn from a biblical application in the whole council of God in which it the subject applies, which is very vast. [u][b]God Word unites when it is accepted and divides when it is not accepted.[/b][/u] My convictions and my compulsions are to tell what I believe to be truth from the whole council of God, and not to force what I believe to be truth on someone else because that is an impossible task. We all have the option and the responsibility to confirm truth spoken by others including myself through HIS WORD and HIS SPIRIT, and to determine what we read and confirm it is indeed truth and respond to it accordingly. Things are more easily broken down and defeated from within by deception. Most of us are well seasoned in hearing people talk out of both sides of their mouth. They say they have the love of Christ, but yet would not defend their family or fellowman from being murderered.
ummmmmmm. Yet these same people would call the police to protect them in a life or death situation and also while dissing the military people who protect them and are the very reason they enjoy the freedoms they have. They are a God sent to us. God sets up and takes down governments.

The police often are required to take a life to save others in doing so, yet they will protest again another group of military people who have the same job and objective to serve and protect others.

It is amazing to me how some people spill out their anti-military rethoric and still yet not have the same thoughts and the same mind in dismantling their domestic police departments. Why are they not using using the same rethoric about saving a ton of money in that area as well and then just say we should just turn the other cheek when the evil people come to do harm to our loved ones. Are those overseas strangers not worth the same love as we are? Are they not important to God even though they don't know he is not Allah. As I said earlier, it seems to me to be talking out of both sides of the mouth. But each ones of us have our own choice and convictions and we should strive to settle it in our hearts how to give an answer to all these things.

The anti-protection military minded people rollover on military protection acts and if they become successful enough, it could eventually could remove any choice and any freedom in everything about everything until Jesus comes and settles matters of evil.
Thanks for the comments and God Bless.

We all are in agreement on the main thing,
Jesus is our Blessed Hope.

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