Something MISSING!

Dearly beloved brothers and sisters,

In recent weeks I have come to understand more fully, how I have been preserved by ruthlessly strict biblical teaching, from certain pitfalls with which Christians may struggle, especially where laws of the land have a biblical basis.

The two (pitfalls) which have come to my attention in particular, are the 'prosperity gospel' and a general confusion about where the Old Testament ends and the New Testament begins.... and I'm not talking about turning the page from Malachi to Matthew.... :-D

In fact, I was horrified recently to learn how much [u]OT[/u] scripture is used to [i]support[/i] the 'prosperity gospel' - some of it is even reversed in meaning from its original context - and yet unchallenged by modern believers. How so?

Beloved, this is a very simple way for the enemy to entangle us or keep us in bondage, and it is a tool to prevent the renewing of our minds.

Now please don't worry that I've had a sheltered Christian existence. The enemy (with God's permission) saw to it that my blind spots were capitalised upon, so that without God's help there was no way forward to victory. You'll noticed that being [i]slow on the uptake[/i] is one of them.... ;-) But, I've survived in Him, and have heaved a great deal of old baggage overboard of necessity, in the process. Musn't we all?

That was a preamble.

Now for 'Something MISSING!'

I need to share a vision with you. It's short. Then, I'll share how I reacted initially, and how I had to respond to that reaction, to retain my spiritual integrity before God. I make no apologies. This is a bit of my testimony.

Neil had finally posted 'Kingdom of Priests' on fireonthealtar, and I was listening to it through the second time. At the point where Joseph falls on his dead father and kisses him, suddenly (this is the vision) I was there in Egypt AND [i]simultaneously[/i] I was at the place my mother's family come from in Lewis, Scotland.

Immediately, I knew the Lord was revealing to me that I am descended from Jacob. (So much could be said at this point I'm going to say nothing.)

And this was, of course, mind-boggling to one brought up as a gentile, although my mother often talked in a way which I now might interpret as sympathetic to her being of 'Jewish' descent.

Now I don't know what some of you might be making of this revelation that I might be descended from Jacob, but I'm sure some of you will, mistakenly, be making something of it. Stop, please, right now. It's worthless.

Very quickly.... and I mean, within a few hours of taking in what the Lord had shown me in the vision... I was thrown into understanding how an Israelite might suppose that his natural birth was of some worth to God. I understood the pride (believe it or not!) that comes from thinking I was physically related to Jesus. :-o Even though my ancestors killed Him anyway.

It was awful. All I could think (and still do), was 'Why would I [i][b]want[/i][/b] to be Jewish?' I couldn't ditch those thoughts fast enough, to regain my inner equilibrium with God.

But, and this was worth (probably the reason for) that insight from God.... because I could, for the first time, understand [i]why[/i] Paul wrote what he did on [i]many[/i] occasions about resisting to 'keep' (as in store within one's heart and live off) the law, and rather [i]be kept by[/i] the love of God (and much more).

Also, those references to genealogies tending to strife and division, came alive, and if I had never understood before what being born from above is supposed to do for us, I understood it now, and am eternally grateful that it is so.

[color=0000CC]So, the [u]thing[/u] which I see MISSING in many of our deliberations, is a lack of understanding that the gospel does to deliver a [i]natural[/i] Jew into God's hand, to be born from above.

Being [i]outwardly[/i] Jewish is just a huge burden, which [u]must be[/u] ditched in Christ, for an [u]inner circumcision[/u] which renders the outer [i]DEAD[/i]. [/color]

So, dearly beloved, please step back from some of your objectivity of scripture, and ask yourself when the New Covenant began to bite?

How did the apostles know from which Old Testament scriptures to preach the gospel?

And what was\\is the gospel?

If you were a new Jewish believer, what were you believing now, instead of what you believed before?

The answers to all of these questions are in the New Testament, but, understandably, the apostles had their own learning curve, as the Holy Spirit led them into more and more truth. What truth?

This has been playing on my mind, as it's open to misinterpretation.

It's worthless.

And, I [i]appreciate[/i] it was necessary for Jesus to have a human 'family'.

In a way, [i]that's[/i] what Abraham was chosen to head up ...

EDIT: before there were any 'Jews' around... ;-)

rowdy2 asked

Is this reply in the same context as your thread?

I've always liked the way Paul uses this phrase somewhat tentatively [i]endeavouring to keep the unity of the body in the bond of peace[/i] (Eph 4), as it gently informs us that it may take some effort on our part to come onto the common ground of truth. This necessarily implies we must leave the ground we [i]were[/i] on.

Eddie, thank you for your kind words, and your point about the word of God being our benchmark.

And this... :-)

The Son of David who is worthy of building The Father a house to dwell in.

We collectively are The Body of Christ and the dwelling place and The House of The Living God

Someone posted an excellent exerpt about the temple stretching up through the generations of believers... I'm going to try to find it.

Greetings Diane,

Thank you for your observations.

Many believe that still today, if they obey God, then God should bless them – and secure our land.

Here's a clip of it:

'As I listen the problem becomes evident. Their very words reveal it. Without realizing the truth, these people are far more concerned for themselves than for Him. They are far more alive to what they want God to do for them, than what they might become unto Him, if they could, they would use God and the work of the Cross for their own ends. Here is the source of their trouble!
The Cross is not the threshold to selfish attainment, but a terminal to selfishness. Many would use it for themselves, but God has designed that it should bring men wholly unto Him.

Even among those who continually attend deeper life conferences and retreats, we find many who have fallen victim of this vicious snare. After years and years of reckoning on more knowledge and deeper teaching, they are still camping around their old self-center— getting all God has for me, possessing all my possessions appropriating all my inheritance in Christ.

Oh! May God strip the veneer and shatter every attempt at using the Cross, instead of dying on the Cross. Hidden behind most begging and pleading for God to give victory is the secret concern for ourselves—not Himself. God will not condone this self centeredness. How many years I taught the truths of Romans six and counseled with those who were in defeat and bondage before I found this key—In His death I am to become “alive unto God!” As long as a believer’s primary concern is to get victory or deliverance for himself; subtlety it means that he continues to live unto self.'

What are they?

Hi Jeff :-D - Your question has me grinning.

My first answer is [i][b]flesh[/i][/b].

Btw, did you have something in mind....?

If so, please don't be afraid to share whatever.

One other thing comes to mind, and that is that when Jacob set out to get the blessings intended for Esau by his natural birth, he had no concept of God keeping His word to him, [i]without his help[/i], even though his father had prayed God to end Rebekah's infertility, and He had. (In other words, God is one who performs what we cannot.)

Or, that in desiring to receive them from God, he was both answering something God had placed within him (which was beyond his control), and by outworking those desires in the way he did, he was laying himself open to be sifted by circumstances which came along with the very blessings - to the point where it would be difficult to tell which had led to which.

In other words, I don't think I understood what an expensive prayer I was praying when I offered my life to God for him to use, but, like Jacob, I knew that [u]He[/u] was my both my first and my last resort, [i]in the circumstance[/i] in which I did it.

Did that make sense?

Re: Something's Missing...boy is it...

Greetings, bro IRONMAN,

You raise an interesting text, which sparks me into fierce fighting mode for the gospel, and possibly from an unfamiliar angle... because I haven't heard preached either, what I'm about to say...

First, though, I have never been in a church where the prosperity gospel is held and regularly preached (Praise God!) so I'm not in a position to judge your first point from my own experience. But I have [i]met[/i] Christians who believe in it.

The first thing that strikes me about the verses you chose, is to whom the Lord is speaking - 'saith the LORD of hosts unto you, [u]O priests[/u], [b]that despise my name[/b]' and that He tags them with the criticism that they 'despise' His name. OUCH!

We see the same thing in Luke's account of Jesus' arrest, where, by the time He arrives, the whole council is gathered and later it is [i]one of these men[/i] who strikes Him. I remember the shock I felt when I realised that this was a member of the elite religious leadership of Israel behaving like a lout.

From other things I've heard about power-hungry people, I know it is often true that there is, literally, a gang of big strong men who go and intimidate (turn up late at night and threaten) those who speak out for truth not knowing (at the time) that this might befall them.

What is often more scary in these situations is not the threats, but that they are being made by men who have respectable dayjobs (like, that among them are local ministers, lawyers, businessmen!), who are known as pillars of the community, who (the intimidated one feels) would be believed over and above him (the one speaking up for [u]righteousness[/u]).

Therefore, that [i]these[/i] men would offer polluted sacrifices (which necessarily cost them less), is not a surprise.

These men have strayed so far from God, that they think (if He exists at all), that He doesn't know what they do.

And, they don't know why (because they have lost all sense of their sinfulness, [i]and[/i] of His [i]holiness[/i]) they should bother to offer anything unblemished. It's the same attitude as those to whom Peter refers with this rebuttal: 'The Lord is not [b]slack concerning his promise[/b], as some men count slackness...'

Boy, you got me started here....! ;-)

contd.

to IRONMAN contd.

the robbery of God in terms of us not giving Him the Honour Due Him leads to us not doing right by Him [u]in tithing[/u] or otherwise. [u]The failure to tithe is a symptom of this failiure to have God as the only focus[/u].

In fact, I would suggest to you there is a snare in thinking that by tithing, one is now off the hook. (I'm not suggesting you think this.) That now, what one has left, belongs to oneself to spend on anything one can still afford. Under the New Covenant, this can only be described as hypocrisy.

Under the power of the Holy Spirit, Peter struck on a New Covenant truth which we do well to take on board, when he said 'Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [i]part[/i] of the price of the land? 4 [b]Whiles it remained[/b], [u]was it not thine own[/u]? [b]and after it was sold[/b], [u]was it not in thine own power[/u]? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? [u]thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God[/u].

Notice, Peter didn't say, [i]Ananias, you know that if you'd only given a tenth, you'd have been in the clear with God.[/i] Peter is stating a [u]different way[/u] of managing our property, our capital and our resources.

Now, please don't (only) take from this that I'm saying it's ok to [i]not[/i] give 'money' to the Lord, [u]as a way of life[/u] (although I am also saying that!) because I believe it is good to have all our money available to the Lord for whatever He calls upon it. I do [u]not[/u] believe a Christian is [u]entitled[/u] to a moderately comfortable house\\home\\regular shelter, although many of us enjoy this. We should be deeply grateful to the Lord if we do (have such a place to lay our heads), as it is not in the manifesto of provisions He promises for this earth. He [u]promises[/u] a home in heaven. Is that where our affections are settled?

are we sowing seed out of greed or to tend to someone's need?

There is just one other thing I'd like to comment on the words from Malachi you quote.

Under the Old Covenant, the animals chosen for offerings and sacrifices had to fit God's precise specifications, or they were unacceptable.

Under the New Covenant, what do we offer? We offer ourselves and all that we have and are.

So, do we think we can keep our blemishes and God won't notice?

Do we think we can keep our sicknesses of soul and spirit, and in laying down such unhealthy sacrifices, it is possible to [i]please[/i] Him... after Jesus has been here to show us many kinds of deliverance and healing by which we may become [i]whole[/i] sacrifices - which [i]do[/i] please Him?

You know, there is more in the New Testament about this than I have ever heard [i]preached[/i]. Here is a tiny sample:

Matthew 21
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them,It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but [u]ye[/u] have [u]made[/u] it [b]a den of thieves[/b].
14 [color=006699]And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.[/color]

Hebrews 12
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [i]us[/i], and we gave [i]them[/i] reverence: [u]shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and [b]live[/b][/u]?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened [i]us[/i] after their own pleasure; but he for [i]our[/i] profit, [u]that [i]we[/i] might be [b]partakers of his holiness[/b][/u].
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 [color=006699]And [u]make[/u] straight paths for your feet, lest that which is [u]lame[/u] be turned out of the way; [b]but let it [u]rather[/u] be healed[/b][/color].

Bro, do you catch my drift?

Diane stated

'God has indeed promised us prosperity:– '

and shared from 2 Peter 1

3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Diane, you asked:

What more could we want?

I think, the answer to the other two questions is in the answer to the first, but unless we begin to understand the revelation of God Himself, through what we can know of the way Jesus conducted Himself and what He taught, I don't think we begin either to find Him sufficient, or, to crave His abiding presence.

Dear Jeff,

Thank you for the simplicity of your last post. I found it refreshing and edifying, and I will be sharing those definitions of dreams with others. It's a revelation to learn there are recognised types of dream, differentiated in that way!

I'm not sure you can attribute my susceptibility to dreams and visions to Jacob, though my mother frequently mentioned 'the second sight' which so many from her parents' part of the world were gifted with, (or burdened by, depending on how you look at it).

You raise an interesting point, if you are suggesting these things happen only to those of Israel's descent or faith. I don't think scripture supports this, and Cornelius is a prime example.

Also I believe that every person who comes into the world is fitted with an inner God-recognition faculty, no matter what they like to call it, and no matter how it is dammed up by sin or Satan, I believe it can be freed for action.

Further, dreams and visions are promised to those baptised in the Holy Spirit, although it may be true to say that some people may never have either of them. I believe God knows how to gift us according to aspects of our natural pasts - either to bring into fuller use, or create anew from nothing - in lives which have been laid down to Him completely. And I believe there can be a growth in number of identifyable spiritual 'talents' but, that these can never be possessed by the individual as their own. They always are God's graces upon His deeper work of saving us properly from within.

One thing I believe passionately, is that it is possible to completely sure that God has spoken to us. Just as it is possible to be unsure whether what we [i]think[/i] may have been God, really was.

I wonder whether we forget to identify the context when comparing these two experiences, as often our unsureness is just that... that we have not given the time and space to hearing from Him which we should. And the times we are [i]so[/i] sure, are either because God has taken the initiative in answering a very specific prayer, or, we had been praying long and hard before His voice came. (Iow, we had properly prepared ourselves to hear from Him.)

Just some thoughts, bro. :-)

[quote
dorcus
Now, please don't (only) take from this that I'm saying it's ok to not give 'money' to the Lord, as a way of life (although I am also saying that!) because I believe it is good to have all our money available to the Lord for whatever He calls upon it. I do not believe a Christian is entitled to a moderately comfortable house\\home\\regular shelter, although many of us enjoy this.]

[color=00BB55]moe_mac wrote:
I enjoyed reading the thread and it had many intesting points. I do not agree with the theology in which the properity is preached by many. However tithing is not only Old Testament scripture but New Testament as well. In Matt. 23:23 and Luke 11:42 Jesus told the Pharisees they should have done the former without leaving the latter undone when speaking of giving a tenth back to HIM. I don't know of any other mouth that it could have came out of and be any clearer and plainer. Does it justify us, no. There are many principles (what God desires of us) story pictures if you will, in the Old Testament that tells us how to live our life in obedience to HIM. As a matter of fact the same God gave the words for both the Old and the New Testament. John 1:1 and John 1:14. Jesus came to do the will of the Father.

I noticed in your quote, " our money". I too, when referring my money, will say out of habit, "my money" when everything I have HE gave and actually it is HIS money. Everything we have we are only stewards of it, he is letting us use temporarily. Bill Gates and Donald Trump or no one will not have any special consideration in material wealth when we all stand before HIM. When anyone tithes, they are only giving back part of what God has given to them and in doing so, testifying they believe He gave them everything. I have only been tithing about 5 years. When I finally realized, if I didn't tithe and said then said in my heart, "yea I think God is my source of everything" and did not in give to HIS church that he loved and died for, it reflected the motives of my heart, just how much did I believed what I was saying and show with my actions that He was indeed, Lord. Now since I have been tithing, I have not won the lottery or come upon any large sums of money as Jesse D preaches, but my needs have have been met, way past what I call needs. I can testify to times when money was so short and things transpered in such a manner that supplied those needs, there was no doubt that he supplied them.

In Relating to the Jewish blood relation. I have a rare blood disoder called beta thallesemia. I found on the internet search where that particular type blood disorder is of middle eastern discent and some think from the Jewish linage of Moses. I don't know if that is true. Many things people consider to be fact that come from the internet is not true. When I read this article, it made me kind of perk up, only to realize that if it was true, it actually meant nothing, when it comes to a relationship with HIM, just as you did in the dream you had. When speaking about salvation in Jesus and through HIS shed blood at the cross, it is through faith and by grace. We must make HIM both Lord and Savior. Not just Savior. Just as Jesus told the rich young ruler in how to be saved, so all must do. If anyone or anything is put before HIM and HE does not have supremacy in our life, we lack one thing and we will go away sad because we are not willing to give up our stuff and to be HIS disciple. Narrow is the way, but broad is the path that leads to destruction. And as for the subject of is there any protection of a nation that honors HIM. Sure we see it all through the Old Testament. We have seen it all the through history. We have seen nations start well and end up terrible. Individuals also. A nation would be far better off to take all the military equipment planes, bombs, and everything and destroy all of it, than for the majority of the citizens to turn there back on HIM and HIS ways and HIS protection, which they have done in mine any many other countries in recent years.
As I said I enjoyed your thread.[/color]

moe_mac said

I noticed in your quote, " our money". I too, when referring my money, will say out of habit, "my money" when everything I have HE gave and actually it is HIS money. Everything we have we are only stewards of it, he is letting us use temporarily.

Sorry it's taken a while to get back here. I'm glad you found some interesting points in the thread so far. I hope there will be many more!

You said, above, 'Everything we have we are only strewards of it, he is letting us use temporarily.' While this is true, that stewardship is no light thing. We really [i]do[/i] have to answer for how we value things, or, as Young's Literal Translation says 'disown' them (as in give up our theoretical right to enjoy them and consume them upon ourselves). Money crops up in a number of the parables. It was something the Lord was keen to give us guidance about.

However tithing is not only Old Testament scripture but New Testament as well. In Matt. 23:23 and Luke 11:42 Jesus told the Pharisees they should have done the former without leaving the latter undone when speaking of giving a tenth back to HIM. I don't know of any other mouth that it could have came out of and be any clearer and plainer.

Yes, Jesus did say that to the Pharisees. But why....?

In another thread, I mentioned to IRONMAN that I believe it's important not to mix up our terminology; that there is a distinction between the New Testament and the New Covenant, and between the Old Testament and the Old Covenant.

In that thread, I didn't give our brother any clues as to the point I'm making here, but, to you and all who read, here is a deeper question, which answers my first.

When did the New Covenant begin?

Once you have that answer, you will be able to see why Jesus could say that to the Pharisees, [i]without being at variance[/i] with what Peter said to Ananias and Sapphira, or the stance I've described in previous posts (that tithing is not [i]required[/i] under the New Covenant).

Hi Jeff,

I appreciate your challenge. I need time, though. I'll be back.

:-)

dorcas wrote:

Yes, Jesus did say that to the Pharisees. But why....?

In another thread, I mentioned to IRONMAN that I believe it's important not to mix up our terminology; that there is a distinction between the New Testament and the New Covenant, and between the Old Testament and the Old Covenant.

In that thread, I didn't give our brother any clues as to the point I'm making here, but, to you and all who read, here is a deeper question, which answers my first.

When did the New Covenant begin?

Once you have that answer, you will be able to see why Jesus could say that to the Pharisees, [i]without being at variance[/i] with what Peter said to Ananias and Sapphira, or the stance I've described in previous posts (that tithing is not [i]required[/i] under the New Covenant).

[b]moe wrote:[/b]
[color=003399]
When did the New Covenant begin?
I would say it began at the cross, when Jesus took the sins of the world upon HIM and bore them on the cross, for whosoever will believe,[b] in their heart[/b][b] and confess with their mouth that HE is their [/b][b][u]Lord and Savior[/b][/u].

The Holy Spirit was manifested from the Apostles Peter preaching to 300 more people, who received forgiveness of sins, on the day of Pentecost, only after the Apostles had received power from on high(FROM GOD). This was a demonstration of the New Covenant prophecy being fulfiled spoken by the Prophet JOEL AND Jeremiah in
Jer 33:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
KJV

[u]Everything centers around the cross[/u]. Christ must have supremacy [u] in everything[/u]. The NKJV and the KJV says[u] in all things [/u] as below. If one missed the cross, did not confess with the heart, but only made confession with the mouth only, one has not received the New Covenant of promise and does not have HIS laws written in their heart.[/color]

Col 1:18
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that[u] in all things[/u] [b]He may have the preeminence.[/b]
NKJV

John 19:30
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
KJV

Heb 8:9-9:1
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; [b]because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.[b/]
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;[b] I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:[/b]

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
KJV

[color=009933][u]In the passage below we see our Lord has commanded the preacher was to earn his living from preaching the gospel.[/u] Where does the money come from to pay the preacher for preaching the gospel and carrying out the great commission in travel expense and all other expenses. We all know being a christian saved by grace does not exempt us from giving out of a thankful heart, the thankful heart making the requirement, not the law, but the heart to give in every area, including our finances. For what the law could could do, grace did abound.[/color]

1st Cor 16:2
[b]But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14[u] In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.[/u][/b]

[color=009933]Now tithing is not actually not the question, the question is about the heart. If we believe HE has the power to change our mortal body and take us to heaven and also through HIM we can do all things through Christ who strengthen us. If our heart has been changed and HIS Spirit lives in us, and we are a new creation, why wouldn't we not want to give in cheerfulness when giving to HIS church for the assisting of spreading the gospel to other people around the world as HE us also commanded that the preacher receive his living from where? Is it the church body, the foot, the arm, the leg, the whole body working together. Does the hand say to the foot, we don't need you. The body of Christ. If the preacher and the bills get paid, where does the money coming from? How was the church set up from the scripture? Does God not have power now? Does HE have the power to control our situation in everything for HIS purpose? Does He control the air we breath? DO we have evidence that is the way Paul and the early church did it?[/color]

[b]Luke 6:45-46
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
KJV[/b]

What is alms?
[b]Luke 12:33-38
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.[/b]
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
KJV

[color=003399]God does not need the money HE has intrusted us to earn to carry out HIS purpose. Could it be He just wants us to demostrate our love and trust in and to HIM in giving. God is the owner of the cattle of a thousand hills and also owns the hills that the cattle are grazing on also.God is not in need of our money or HIS money He has enables us to make, but desires that HIS Spirit live our heart and that it be manifested in obedient trust to HIM. What we do in actions and say with our mouth, reveals much about what is in our heart towards HIM and HIS purpose. It also reveals it to ourselves and others. That is what James was referring to when HE said faith without works is dead. He wasn't talking about our works justifying us, but rather the last part of the passage in EPH 8 and 9 but verse 10 of the passage that many times is used by many excuse them from doing absolutely nothing for HIS CHURCH and HIS PURPOSE as a Christian.[/color]

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus[u]unto good works[/u], which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

[color=003399]Is HE a rewarder of those who dilgently seek HIM? He says He is. I believe He is, I have experienced that He is, not as some preach the prosperity gospel, in that He will enable us to win the lottery or that will someone will give us a JETLINER, if we but only have enough faith and give. He could if it was in and for HIS Plans and purposes he could if He wanted to. If we gave for that reason, it would be wrong and the wrong motive. God is our Jehovah Jireh, being our provider means for all our needs, not our wants.
I say HE is our provider not only to forgive sins but in everything and if react to what we have in our heart as HE instructed in His Word, we are to be content in whatever situation He has placed us in.[/color]

One more passage in closing. This should say it all.[color]

[b]Phil 4:15-23
15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
KJV[/b]

[color=003399]On more and then I'm through, but there are many others passages if one wants to search His Word find them.[/color]

[b]1 Cor 16:1-2
16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
KJV[/b]

[color=003399]If I might make add one more point and I'm through. Seeing these passages and reading them to be truth, if I might ask, how can one arrive at the lie, that christian service to the local church is not neccesary or pleasing to Lord and and that HE/SHE, if they are phyiscally able, and that using the gift or gifts given to them by HIS grace and offering that gift in service and giving in the local church is not neccesary and/or tithing is not scriptural or pleasing to the Lord. How can you arrive at that?[/color]

2 Cor 9:7-8
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity:[b] for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:[/b]
KJV

moe_mac wrote:

dorcas wrote:

Yes, Jesus did say that to the Pharisees. But why....?

In another thread, I mentioned to IRONMAN that I believe it's important not to mix up our terminology; that there is a distinction between the New Testament and the New Covenant, and between the Old Testament and the Old Covenant.

In that thread, I didn't give our brother any clues as to the point I'm making here, but, to you and all who read, here is a deeper question, which answers my first.

When did the New Covenant begin?

Once you have that answer, you will be able to see why Jesus could say that to the Pharisees, [i]without being at variance[/i] with what Peter said to Ananias and Sapphira, or the stance I've described in previous posts (that tithing is not [i]required[/i] under the New Covenant).

[b]moe wrote:[/b]
[color=003399]
When did the New Covenant begin?
I would say it began at the cross, when Jesus took the sins of the world upon HIM and bore them on the cross, for whosoever will believe,[b] in their heart[/b][b] and confess with their mouth that HE is their [/b][b][u]Lord and Savior[/b][/u].

The Holy Spirit was manifested from the Apostles Peter preaching to 300 more people, who received forgiveness of sins, on the day of Pentecost, only after the Apostles had received power from on high(FROM GOD). This was a demonstration of the New Covenant prophecy being fulfiled spoken by the Prophet JOEL AND Jeremiah in
Jer 33:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
KJV

[u]Everything centers around the cross[/u]. Christ must have supremacy [u] in everything[/u]. The NKJV and the KJV says[u] in all things [/u] as below. If one missed the cross, did not confess with the heart, but only made confession with the mouth only, one has not received the New Covenant of promise and does not have HIS laws written in their heart.[/color]

Col 1:18
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that[u] in all things[/u] [b]He may have the preeminence.[/b]
NKJV

John 19:30
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
KJV

Heb 8:9-9:1
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; [b]because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.[b/]
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;[b] I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:[/b]

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
KJV

[color=009933][u]In the passage below we see our Lord has commanded the preacher was to earn his living from preaching the gospel.[/u] Where does the money come from to pay the preacher for preaching the gospel and carrying out the great commission in travel expense and all other expenses. We all know being a christian saved by grace does not exempt us from giving out of a thankful heart, the thankful heart making the requirement, not the law, but the heart to give in every area, including our finances. For what the law could could do, grace did abound.[/color]

1st Cor 16:2
[b]But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14[u] In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.[/u][/b]

[color=009933]Now tithing is not actually not the question, the question is about the heart. If we believe HE has the power to change our mortal body and take us to heaven and also through HIM we can do all things through Christ who strengthen us. If our heart has been changed and HIS Spirit lives in us, and we are a new creation, why wouldn't we not want to give in cheerfulness when giving to HIS church for the assisting of spreading the gospel to other people around the world as HE us also commanded that the preacher receive his living from where? Is it the church body, the foot, the arm, the leg, the whole body working together. Does the hand say to the foot, we don't need you. The body of Christ. If the preacher and the bills get paid, where does the money coming from? How was the church set up from the scripture? Does God not have power now? Does HE have the power to control our situation in everything for HIS purpose? Does He control the air we breath? DO we have evidence that is the way Paul and the early church did it?[/color]

[b]Luke 6:45-46
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
KJV[/b]

What is alms?
[b]Luke 12:33-38
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.[/b]
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
KJV

[color=003399]God does not need the money HE has intrusted us to earn to carry out HIS purpose. Could it be He just wants us to demostrate our love and trust in and to HIM in giving. God is the owner of the cattle of a thousand hills and also owns the hills that the cattle are grazing on also.God is not in need of our money or HIS money He has enables us to make, but desires that HIS Spirit live our heart and that it be manifested in obedient trust to HIM. What we do in actions and say with our mouth, reveals much about what is in our heart towards HIM and HIS purpose. It also reveals it to ourselves and others. That is what James was referring to when HE said faith without works is dead. He wasn't talking about our works justifying us, but rather the last part of the passage in EPH 8 and 9 but verse 10 of the passage that many times is used by many excuse them from doing absolutely nothing for HIS CHURCH and HIS PURPOSE as a Christian.[/color]

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus[u]unto good works[/u], which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

[color=003399]Is HE a rewarder of those who dilgently seek HIM? He says He is. I believe He is, I have experienced that He is, not as some preach the prosperity gospel, in that He will enable us to win the lottery or that will someone will give us a JETLINER, if we but only have enough faith and give. He could if it was in and for HIS Plans and purposes he could if He wanted to. If we gave for that reason, it would be wrong and the wrong motive. God is our Jehovah Jireh, being our provider means for all our needs, not our wants.
I say HE is our provider not only to forgive sins but in everything and if react to what we have in our heart as HE instructed in His Word, we are to be content in whatever situation He has placed us in.[/color]

One more passage in closing. This should say it all.[color]

[b]Phil 4:15-23
15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
KJV[/b]

[color=003399]On more and then I'm through, but there are many others passages if one wants to search His Word find them.[/color]

[b]1 Cor 16:1-2
16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
KJV[/b]

[color=003399]If I might make add one more point and I'm through. Seeing these passages and reading them to be truth, if I might ask, how can one arrive at the lie, that christian service to the local church is not neccesary or pleasing to Lord and and that HE/SHE, if they are phyiscally able, and that using the gift or gifts given to them by HIS grace and offering that gift in service and giving in the local church is not neccesary and/or tithing is not scriptural or pleasing to the Lord. How can you arrive at that?[/color]

2 Cor 9:7-8
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity:[b] for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:[/b]
KJV

edit: I'm sorry Dorcus it took me so long to get back with a reply. Actually the thread slid back so far I missed the question until now.

moe wrote:

When did the New Covenant begin?
I would say it began at the cross, when Jesus took the sins of the world upon HIM and bore them on the cross, for whosoever will believe, in their heart and confess with their mouth that HE is their Lord and Savior.

The Holy Spirit was manifested from the Apostles Peter preaching to 300 more people, who received forgiveness of sins, on the day of Pentecost, only after the Apostles had received power from on high(FROM GOD). This was a demonstration of the New Covenant prophecy being fulfiled spoken by the Prophet JOEL AND Jeremiah in
Jer 33:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
KJV

Everything centers around the cross. Christ must have supremacy in everything. The NKJV and the KJV says in all things as below. If one missed the cross, did not confess with the heart, but only made confession with the mouth only, one has not received the New Covenant of promise and does not have HIS laws written in their heart.

Col 1:18
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
NKJV

John 19:30
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
KJV

Heb 8:9-9:1
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.[b/]
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;[b] I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
KJV

In the passage below we see our Lord has commanded the preacher was to earn his living from preaching the gospel. Where does the money come from to pay the preacher for preaching the gospel and carrying out the great commission in travel expense and all other expenses. We all know being a christian saved by grace does not exempt us from giving out of a thankful heart, the thankful heart making the requirement, not the law, but the heart to give in every area, including our finances. For what the law could could do, grace did abound.

1st Cor 16:2
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Now tithing is not actually not the question, the question is about the heart. If we believe HE has the power to change our mortal body and take us to heaven and also through HIM we can do all things through Christ who strengthen us. If our heart has been changed and HIS Spirit lives in us, and we are a new creation, why wouldn't we not want to give in cheerfulness when giving to HIS church for the assisting of spreading the gospel to other people around the world as HE us also commanded that the preacher receive his living from where? Is it the church body, the foot, the arm, the leg, the whole body working together. Does the hand say to the foot, we don't need you. The body of Christ. If the preacher and the bills get paid, where does the money coming from? How was the church set up from the scripture? Does God not have power now? Does HE have the power to control our situation in everything for HIS purpose? Does He control the air we breath? DO we have evidence that is the way Paul and the early church did it?

Luke 6:45-46
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
KJV

What is alms?
Luke 12:33-38
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
KJV

God does not need the money HE has intrusted us to earn to carry out HIS purpose. Could it be He just wants us to demostrate our love and trust in and to HIM in giving. God is the owner of the cattle of a thousand hills and also owns the hills that the cattle are grazing on also.God is not in need of our money or HIS money He has enables us to make, but desires that HIS Spirit live our heart and that it be manifested in obedient trust to HIM. What we do in actions and say with our mouth, reveals much about what is in our heart towards HIM and HIS purpose. It also reveals it to ourselves and others. That is what James was referring to when HE said faith without works is dead. He wasn't talking about our works justifying us, but rather the last part of the passage in EPH 8 and 9 but verse 10 of the passage that many times is used by many excuse them from doing absolutely nothing for HIS CHURCH and HIS PURPOSE as a Christian.

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesusunto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

Is HE a rewarder of those who dilgently seek HIM? He says He is. I believe He is, I have experienced that He is, not as some preach the prosperity gospel, in that He will enable us to win the lottery or that will someone will give us a JETLINER, if we but only have enough faith and give. He could if it was in and for HIS Plans and purposes he could if He wanted to. If we gave for that reason, it would be wrong and the wrong motive. God is our Jehovah Jireh, being our provider means for all our needs, not our wants.
I say HE is our provider not only to forgive sins but in everything and if react to what we have in our heart as HE instructed in His Word, we are to be content in whatever situation He has placed us in.

One more passage in closing. This should say it all.[color]

Phil 4:15-23
15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
KJV

On more and then I'm through, but there are many others passages if one wants to search His Word find them.

1 Cor 16:1-2
16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
KJV

If I might make add one more point and I'm through. Seeing these passages and reading them to be truth, if I might ask, how can one arrive at the lie, that christian service to the local church is not neccesary or pleasing to Lord and and that HE/SHE, if they are phyiscally able, and that using the gift or gifts given to them by HIS grace and offering that gift in service and giving in the local church is not neccesary and/or tithing is not scriptural or pleasing to the Lord. How can you arrive at that?

2 Cor 9:7-8
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
KJV

edit:1 Cor 1:18-23

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

KJV

Hello moe,

I have wanted to give my full attention to my reply to your post(s) and will not be able to do so yet, as I'm out of town for a few days.

Thank you for addressing the question about when the New Covenant began. The reason I asked it, is because when Jesus made comments about tithing, the Old Covenant was still in force.

That was my main purpose in drawing attention to the differences.

Most of what you have quoted from the era after Pentecost, I agree with... except for the interpretation of the preacher being entitled to a salary for preaching, or the pastor to a salary for pastoring.

In so saying, I don't mean such ministers should not be supported somehow, but... the question is 'how'?

When I return to reply in greater detail, I will support that thought with scripture.

moe_mac wrote:
moe wrote:

When did the New Covenant begin?
I would say it began at the cross, when Jesus took the sins of the world upon HIM and bore them on the cross, for whosoever will believe, in their heart and confess with their mouth that HE is their Lord and Savior.

The Holy Spirit was manifested from the Apostles Peter preaching to 300 more people, who received forgiveness of sins, on the day of Pentecost, only after the Apostles had received power from on high(FROM GOD). This was a demonstration of the New Covenant prophecy being fulfiled spoken by the Prophet JOEL AND Jeremiah in
Jer 33:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
KJV

Everything centers around the cross. Christ must have supremacy in everything. The NKJV and the KJV says in all things as below. If one missed the cross, did not confess with the heart, but only made confession with the mouth only, one has not received the New Covenant of promise and does not have HIS laws written in their heart.

Col 1:18
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
NKJV

John 19:30
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
KJV

Heb 8:9-9:1
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.[b/]
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;[b] I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
KJV

In the passage below we see our Lord has commanded the preacher was to earn his living from preaching the gospel. Where does the money come from to pay the preacher for preaching the gospel and carrying out the great commission in travel expense and all other expenses. We all know being a christian saved by grace does not exempt us from giving out of a thankful heart, the thankful heart making the requirement, not the law, but the heart to give in every area, including our finances. For what the law could could do, grace did abound.

1st Cor 16:2
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Now tithing is not actually not the question, the question is about the heart. If we believe HE has the power to change our mortal body and take us to heaven and also through HIM we can do all things through Christ who strengthen us. If our heart has been changed and HIS Spirit lives in us, and we are a new creation, why wouldn't we not want to give in cheerfulness when giving to HIS church for the assisting of spreading the gospel to other people around the world as HE us also commanded that the preacher receive his living from where? Is it the church body, the foot, the arm, the leg, the whole body working together. Does the hand say to the foot, we don't need you. The body of Christ. If the preacher and the bills get paid, where does the money coming from? How was the church set up from the scripture? Does God not have power now? Does HE have the power to control our situation in everything for HIS purpose? Does He control the air we breath? DO we have evidence that is the way Paul and the early church did it?

Luke 6:45-46
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
KJV

What is alms?
Luke 12:33-38
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
KJV

God does not need the money HE has intrusted us to earn to carry out HIS purpose. Could it be He just wants us to demostrate our love and trust in and to HIM in giving. God is the owner of the cattle of a thousand hills and also owns the hills that the cattle are grazing on also.God is not in need of our money or HIS money He has enables us to make, but desires that HIS Spirit live our heart and that it be manifested in obedient trust to HIM. What we do in actions and say with our mouth, reveals much about what is in our heart towards HIM and HIS purpose. It also reveals it to ourselves and others. That is what James was referring to when HE said faith without works is dead. He wasn't talking about our works justifying us, but rather the last part of the passage in EPH 8 and 9 but verse 10 of the passage that many times is used by many excuse them from doing absolutely nothing for HIS CHURCH and HIS PURPOSE as a Christian.

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesusunto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

Is HE a rewarder of those who dilgently seek HIM? He says He is. I believe He is, I have experienced that He is, not as some preach the prosperity gospel, in that He will enable us to win the lottery or that will someone will give us a JETLINER, if we but only have enough faith and give. He could if it was in and for HIS Plans and purposes he could if He wanted to. If we gave for that reason, it would be wrong and the wrong motive. God is our Jehovah Jireh, being our provider means for all our needs, not our wants.
I say HE is our provider not only to forgive sins but in everything and if react to what we have in our heart as HE instructed in His Word, we are to be content in whatever situation He has placed us in.

One more passage in closing. This should say it all.[color]

Phil 4:15-23
15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
KJV

On more and then I'm through, but there are many others passages if one wants to search His Word find them.

1 Cor 16:1-2
16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
KJV

If I might make add one more point and I'm through. Seeing these passages and reading them to be truth, if I might ask, how can one arrive at the lie, that christian service to the local church is not neccesary or pleasing to Lord and and that HE/SHE, if they are phyiscally able, and that using the gift or gifts given to them by HIS grace and offering that gift in service and giving in the local church is not neccesary and/or tithing is not scriptural or pleasing to the Lord. How can you arrive at that?

2 Cor 9:7-8
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
KJV

edit:1 Cor 1:18-23

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

KJV

edit: Does the true church of Jesus Christ give from the heart? What do they give? Does HIS WORD give church struture? Is the false church deceived? Are they lost in their natural way of thinking? Do they have a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof? Will God judge the secrets of mens hearts? What out of a regenerated heart? If I said I had love and did not show it to HIM, would it be love? If one is deceived by the meaning of HIS WORD, are they lost? Is it neccesary to get a revelation of who HE is now in oder to be able to say as Thomas said, my Lord and My God? What percent of people are deceived? Is the way narrow or broad? Is HIS way natural or supernatural?

Hello moe, :-)

You must wonder what is going on with my not replying to you.... but I don't have an answer. I can tell by your posts in this and other threads that God has properly got a hold of you and is having His way in your thinking.

Below, I'm posting the parts from Tyndale which answer the original long-time-ago-question from a different thread, about preachers making a living from the gospel, by being paid for it.

Please do not assume I'm suggesting no-one should answer the promptings of the Holy Spirit to give money, food, clothes, transport - any of this world's goods - to preachers, pastors, evangelists, apostles (sent out ones) - as a supply of their earthly needs. I am not.

But I am hanging a huge question mark over the [i][b]assumption[/i][/b] that a man with a ministry to a local (or disparate) congregation [u]has a right[/u] to [u]expect[/u] to receive a monetory salary for answering God's call and doing His will in this way.

This is an extract from 1 Corinthians 9, leading up to v 16 and beyond. From it, you'll see the flow of Paul's thinking, more clearly than anywhere else.

[i]"... If we sow unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we reap your carnal things? If other be partaker of this power over you, wherefore are we not rather?

Nevertheless, we have not used this power, but suffer all things lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do you not understand how that they which minister in the temple, have their finding of the temple? And they which wait at the altar, are partakers with the altar? Even so did the Lord ordain, that they who preach the gospel should live of the gospel. But I have used none of these things.

Neither wrote I these things that it should be done so unto me. For it were better for me to die, than any man take this rejoicing from me. In that I preach the gospel, I have nothing to rejoice of. For necessity is put unto me. Woe is it unto me if I preach not the gospel. If I do it with a good will, I have a reward. But if I do it against my will, an office is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily, that when I preach the gospel, I make the gospel of Christ free, that I misuse not mine authority in the gospel.

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself a servant unto all men, that I might win the more... "[/i]

Can you now see, moe, why I questioned your logic, previously?

Brethren in Christ,

I opened this thread to find Jeff's post to me to see if I could answer his questions yet, and my eye fell on something I'd posted to IRONMAN, which I don't agree with. I don't know what I was thinking. And furthermore, I'm a little shocked that no-one posted back to draw attention to my mistake!

So, let me revise an important line in what I wrote on p2, contd.

IRONMAN had asked

are we sowing seed out of greed or to tend to someone's need?

Great question! The paradoxical answer is that we will reserve more treasure in heaven for ourselves if we do the latter; Spurgeon calls it 'lending' to God, or, 'investing' in our heavenly 'bank'.

There is just one other thing I'd like to comment on the words from Malachi you quote.

Under the Old Covenant, the animals chosen for offerings and sacrifices had to fit God's precise specifications, or they were unacceptable.

[b]Under the New Covenant, what do we offer?[/b] [i]We offer ourselves and all that we have and are.[/i]

So, do we think we can keep our blemishes and God won't notice?

Under the New Covenant we offer Christ. He is our unblemished Lamb. Through His sacrifice and blood, we come to the Father and find ourselves accepted [i]despite our blemishes[/i] (to keep the picture).

So, our offering of ourselves to God which requires us to carry on shaping up into the likeness of His Son, is our response to Christ's gift (of Himself).

This is the correct context in which to understand both the New Covenant and our responsibilities within the relationship we enter.

Anyone want to disagree or rephrase what I'm trying to say? Please feel free! Let us help one another go on to perfection [completion].

dorcas wrote:

Can you now see, moe, why I questioned your logic, previously?

It is not my logic that I spoke about but God's logic.The world's logic speaks much differently than God does, that is why most don't accept HIS truth. Worldly Logic did not part the Red Sea, close the Lion's mouth for Daniel, cause water to come out of the rock for Moses. Prompt Mary to annoint Jesus with the expensive oil, give Abraham the faith to leave out not knowing where he was going when God said to.

Now faith if the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of thing not seen. It is the word of God. Worldly logic kept me from giving back to God a portion of all that he has given me for years until my heart was right and understood HIS WORD by faith. Dorcas, if you are comfortable with the Tyndale on tithing, even though it differs with most older translations, I don't know how myself or anyone else could convince you or what say anything to us on the same page. I am comfortable with the Word and the Spirit on what truths I gave on this subject. I pray you are comfortable with the Tyndale version because I'm not. I not only understand the truth I spoke, it has been proven to me by HIM. I believe we all must speak and seek truth with much fear and trembling.
Moe

Hi moe,

Thanks for your reply.

I confess I'm slightly bemused by it.... that you are not 'comfortable with the Tyndale version' is a source of wonder to me.

In your post, you have not corrected me for my understanding that you believe a man of God has a right to take a living from being a preacher - to expect - perhaps to insist - that those to whom he ministers in the local body, tithe to him alone, or somehow make up a wage which he feels is adequate for the lifestyle to which he is, or wishes to become accustomed on an annual basis.

I've seen this in real life. The pastor (of a few years) invited the congregation to find him and his family enough money to build an extension to their home, because of their growing family. The people did as they were asked, and within a much shorter time than could have been expected, the pastor decided to leave, the house (which was not owned by the church but by him) was put up for sale, and in the climate of rising prices that existed, the magnificent improvement which also had added to the market value was taken away towards their next mortgage, leaving a flabberghasted flock behind.

This in no way matches the sense in which Jesus said 'My meat is to do my Father's will', or the sense that the disciples were instructed - to abide at the first household in a village or town which would receive them, accepting such hospitality as was offered, until they moved on to the next place.... not taking their families with them, but leaving them behind for the sake of the gospel.

Paul is not talking about even these provisions. He is talking about earning his own living so that he can offer the gospel free of charge to those whom he serves, [i]even though it would be, he says, fair for him to accept some provisions[/i].

This is one place in which it is clear from the way Tyndale words it, that Paul is also mindful not to abuse his authority as an apostle, as he had done when he was a Pharisee. He is, perhaps, doing what does not come naturally to him, in going to the other extreme to make sure he stays within bounds acceptable to God.

I have the impression you think I don't [i]approve[/i] of tithing, and that you think I think we shouldn't give any money to God at all; whereas I don't think we should give as [i]little[/i] as a tithe, but should hold all things in an open hand. If we can afford to give a quarter, that is more like the starting point I would suggest. But, I wouldn't expect everyone to give it all as money. It might be given in kind, or as time, or as service, and I would not expect to be paid for giving any kind of spiritual ministry. To me, it is almost unbelievable that a man who believes God has called him into service, should then expect to be [i]paid[/i] for obeying God.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your point?

dorcas wrote:

Hi moe,

Thanks for your reply.

I confess I'm slightly bemused by it.... that you are not 'comfortable with the Tyndale version' is a source of wonder to me.

In your post, you have not corrected me for my understanding that you believe a man of God has a right to take a living from being a preacher - to expect - perhaps to insist - that those to whom he ministers in the local body, tithe to him alone, or somehow make up a wage which he feels is adequate for the lifestyle to which he is, or wishes to become accustomed on an annual basis.

I've seen this in real life. The pastor (of a few years) invited the congregation to find him and his family enough money to build an extension to their home, because of their growing family. The people did as they were asked, and within a much shorter time than could have been expected, the pastor decided to leave, the house (which was not owned by the church but by him) was put up for sale, and in the climate of rising prices that existed, the magnificent improvement which also had added to the market value was taken away towards their next mortgage, leaving a flabberghasted flock behind.

This in no way matches the sense in which Jesus said 'My meat is to do my Father's will', or the sense that the disciples were instructed - to abide at the first household in a village or town which would receive them, accepting such hospitality as was offered, until they moved on to the next place.... not taking their families with them, but leaving them behind for the sake of the gospel.

Paul is not talking about even these provisions. He is talking about earning his own living so that he can offer the gospel free of charge to those whom he serves, [i]even though it would be, he says, fair for him to accept some provisions[/i].

This is one place in which it is clear from the way Tyndale words it, that Paul is also mindful not to abuse his authority as an apostle, as he had done when he was a Pharisee. He is, perhaps, doing what does not come naturally to him, in going to the other extreme to make sure he stays within bounds acceptable to God.

I have the impression you think I don't [i]approve[/i] of tithing, and that you think I think we shouldn't give any money to God at all; whereas I don't think we should give as [i]little[/i] as a tithe, but should hold all things in an open hand. If we can afford to give a quarter, that is more like the starting point I would suggest. But, I wouldn't expect everyone to give it all as money. It might be given in kind, or as time, or as service, and I would not expect to be paid for giving any kind of spiritual ministry. To me, it is almost unbelievable that a man who believes God has called him into service, should then expect to be [i]paid[/i] for obeying God.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your point?

Review again what I wrote please: What part do you not agree with? I really don't see where I wrote that the preacher insisted on anything. He shouldn't have to.

When did the New Covenant begin?
I would say it began at the cross, when Jesus took the sins of the world upon HIM and bore them on the cross, for whosoever will believe, in their heart and confess with their mouth that HE is their Lord and Savior.

The Holy Spirit was manifested from the Apostles Peter preaching to 300 more people, who received forgiveness of sins, on the day of Pentecost, only after the Apostles had received power from on high(FROM GOD). This was a demonstration of the New Covenant prophecy being fulfiled spoken by the Prophet JOEL AND Jeremiah in
Jer 33:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
KJV

Everything centers around the cross. Christ must have supremacy in everything. The NKJV and the KJV says in all things as below. If one missed the cross, did not confess with the heart, but only made confession with the mouth only, one has not received the New Covenant of promise and does not have HIS laws written in their heart.

Col 1:18
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
NKJV

John 19:30
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
KJV

Heb 8:9-9:1
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.[b/]
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;[b] I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
KJV

In the passage below we see our Lord has commanded the preacher was to earn his living from preaching the gospel. Where does the money come from to pay the preacher for preaching the gospel and carrying out the great commission in travel expense and all other expenses. We all know being a christian saved by grace does not exempt us from giving out of a thankful heart, the thankful heart making the requirement, not the law, but the heart to give in every area, including our finances. For what the law could could do, grace did abound.

1st Cor 16:2
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Now tithing is not actually not the question, the question is about the heart. If we believe HE has the power to change our mortal body and take us to heaven and also through HIM we can do all things through Christ who strengthen us. If our heart has been changed and HIS Spirit lives in us, and we are a new creation, why wouldn't we not want to give in cheerfulness when giving to HIS church for the assisting of spreading the gospel to other people around the world as HE us also commanded that the preacher receive his living from where? Is it the church body, the foot, the arm, the leg, the whole body working together. Does the hand say to the foot, we don't need you. The body of Christ. If the preacher and the bills get paid, where does the money coming from? How was the church set up from the scripture? Does God not have power now? Does HE have the power to control our situation in everything for HIS purpose? Does He control the air we breath? DO we have evidence that is the way Paul and the early church did it?

Luke 6:45-46
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
KJV

What is alms?
Luke 12:33-38
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
KJV

God does not need the money HE has intrusted us to earn to carry out HIS purpose. Could it be He just wants us to demostrate our love and trust in and to HIM in giving. God is the owner of the cattle of a thousand hills and also owns the hills that the cattle are grazing on also.God is not in need of our money or HIS money He has enables us to make, but desires that HIS Spirit live our heart and that it be manifested in obedient trust to HIM. What we do in actions and say with our mouth, reveals much about what is in our heart towards HIM and HIS purpose. It also reveals it to ourselves and others. That is what James was referring to when HE said faith without works is dead. He wasn't talking about our works justifying us, but rather the last part of the passage in EPH 8 and 9 but verse 10 of the passage that many times is used by many excuse them from doing absolutely nothing for HIS CHURCH and HIS PURPOSE as a Christian.

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
KJV

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesusunto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

Is HE a rewarder of those who dilgently seek HIM? He says He is. I believe He is, I have experienced that He is, not as some preach the prosperity gospel, in that He will enable us to win the lottery or that will someone will give us a JETLINER, if we but only have enough faith and give. He could if it was in and for HIS Plans and purposes he could if He wanted to. If we gave for that reason, it would be wrong and the wrong motive. God is our Jehovah Jireh, being our provider means for all our needs, not our wants.
I say HE is our provider not only to forgive sins but in everything and if react to what we have in our heart as HE instructed in His Word, we are to be content in whatever situation He has placed us in.

One more passage in closing. This should say it all.[color]

Phil 4:15-23
15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
KJV

On more and then I'm through, but there are many others passages if one wants to search His Word find them.

1 Cor 16:1-2
16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
KJV

If I might make add one more point and I'm through. Seeing these passages and reading them to be truth, if I might ask, how can one arrive at the lie, that christian service to the local church is not neccesary or pleasing to Lord and and that HE/SHE, if they are physically able, and that using the gift or gifts given to them by HIS grace and offering that gift in service and giving in the local church is not neccesary and/or tithing is not scriptural or pleasing to the Lord. How can you arrive at that?

2 Cor 9:7-8
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
KJV

edit: I'm sorry Dorcus it took me so long to get back with a reply. Actually the thread slid back so far I missed the question until now.

Hi moe,

I would like to work out what you think I've not understood about giving. In large measure, since we both adhere to scripture, we agree.

I'm beginning to wonder if you use the word 'tithe' to mean a money gift of [u]any[/u] size, while I use it to mean the giving one tenth, (the origin of the term 'tithe') and that may be all the difference between us?

Maybe if that's the case, in my previous post when I wrote near the end: 'I don't think we should give as [i]little[/i] as a tithe,' it would have been a meaningless statement to you. But I'm guessing. Please put me right.

Likewise, when Paul said he provides for himself, for the reasons he gives [i][b]despite[/i][/b] God's (possible) provision through others, (and I know Christians who do earn all the money they need to serve God), how can this be unacceptable? In the end, people are finite. They can only do so much, even if they had all the money in the world, they would need to eat and sleep and generally could be in only one place at a time. Everything else becomes superfluous, without other workers to share the burden (and spend all that money!)

Apart from the example I gave, I believe every member of the body should have their physcial needs attended to by God, whether through the local cburch of which they are a part, or some other way [u]God[/u] uses to meet their need. What is important, is that each believer does give what and when and to whom God tells them.

If it is to the person with the preaching ministry, that's fine, but the person with the preaching ministry doesn't have more right to be financially supported by the body than another. That's all I'm saying.

Acts 2:44
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Many have tried to re-capture this attitude of mind and heart, but it often leads to painful discoveries about where the heart's treasure is stored. So I'm not advocating this as a church model either, [u]unless[/u] this is what God is saying to the individuals who feel led to take it on.

All I'm saying is that giving is not necessarily about money, and ministry most especially is not.

This is mentioned in several places in the New Testament, 1 Timothy 3:3, 1 Timothy 3:8 Titus 1:7, Titus 1:11 and most explanatorily of all:

1 Peter 5:2 - 4
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [i]thereof[/i], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being lords over [i]God's[/i] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

I agree that Christians should give cheerfully and willingly. I just don't agree that their local pastor should get their whole gift, or that he should be the only person who decides where else it is spent, if not on him.

The Holy Spirit is given to guide us in all things, including how we distribute our money, and we are free to give, save or spend, according to His leadership in our lives. He is not blind to exactly what we do. And anyway, giving money is not going to make a heart clean or fill it with the love of God.

Lastly, I don't think Jesus was endorsing the giving of only a tenth for the New Covenant church, except as the Old Covenant determined the setting of wealth aside in acknowledgement of God's goodness in providing, and in recognition that money is necessary for His work to be carried out.

His mention to the Pharisees of tithes, was not to [i]commend[/i] tithes, but to comment on their avarice, (They often took more - and made people pay over the odds for their sacrifices.) and, to condemn their hard-heartedness which burdened the poor in this and other ways, showing no mercy, judgement or justice.

Does this clear up your bemusement?

dorcas wrote:

Hi moe,

I would like to work out what you think I've not understood about giving. In large measure, since we both adhere to scripture, we agree.

I'm beginning to wonder if you use the word 'tithe' to mean a money gift of [u]any[/u] size, while I use it to mean the giving one tenth, (the origin of the term 'tithe') and that may be all the difference between us?

Maybe if that's the case, in my previous post when I wrote near the end: 'I don't think we should give as [i]little[/i] as a tithe,' it would have been a meaningless statement to you. But I'm guessing. Please put me right.

Likewise, when Paul said he provides for himself, for the reasons he gives [i][b]despite[/i][/b] God's (possible) provision through others, (and I know Christians who do earn all the money they need to serve God), how can this be unacceptable? In the end, people are finite. They can only do so much, even if they had all the money in the world, they would need to eat and sleep and generally could be in only one place at a time. Everything else becomes superfluous, without other workers to share the burden (and spend all that money!)

Apart from the example I gave, I believe every member of the body should have their physcial needs attended to by God, whether through the local cburch of which they are a part, or some other way [u]God[/u] uses to meet their need. What is important, is that each believer does give what and when and to whom God tells them.

If it is to the person with the preaching ministry, that's fine, but the person with the preaching ministry doesn't have more right to be financially supported by the body than another. That's all I'm saying.

Acts 2:44
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Many have tried to re-capture this attitude of mind and heart, but it often leads to painful discoveries about where the heart's treasure is stored. So I'm not advocating this as a church model either, [u]unless[/u] this is what God is saying to the individuals who feel led to take it on.

All I'm saying is that giving is not necessarily about money, and ministry most especially is not.

This is mentioned in several places in the New Testament, 1 Timothy 3:3, 1 Timothy 3:8 Titus 1:7, Titus 1:11 and most explanatorily of all:

1 Peter 5:2 - 4
Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [i]thereof[/i], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being lords over [i]God's[/i] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

I agree that Christians should give cheerfully and willingly. I just don't agree that their local pastor should get their whole gift, or that he should be the only person who decides where else it is spent, if not on him.

The Holy Spirit is given to guide us in all things, including how we distribute our money, and we are free to give, save or spend, according to His leadership in our lives. He is not blind to exactly what we do. And anyway, giving money is not going to make a heart clean or fill it with the love of God.

Lastly, I don't think Jesus was endorsing the giving of only a tenth for the New Covenant church, except as the Old Covenant determined the setting of wealth aside in acknowledgement of God's goodness in providing, and in recognition that money is necessary for His work to be carried out.

His mention to the Pharisees of tithes, was not to [i]commend[/i] tithes, but to comment on their avarice, (They often took more - and made people pay over the odds for their sacrifices.) and, to condemn their hard-heartedness which burdened the poor in this and other ways, showing no mercy, judgement or justice.

Does this clear up your bemusement?

Moe wrote:
Again read what I posted and consider Romans 12:1, hopefully it says to offers your bodies a living sacrifice in the Tyndale also. Giving is not only money, but service from a thankful heart to Jesus who gave it all for us. Each of HIS children giving in the gift, given to each by grace as HE desires, nor did I state any differently, if you will read closely you can see that. Neither did I state or believe that the non-money giving (service)is deductable from the tithe in money from the heart. Example, I preach so I don't have to give back to the church of what he gave me. Does it matter how much we give? Is a quarter a week enough? It is if you only make a dollar. Will you possible be blessed more (not neccasarily in worldly possessions) if you give 11 cents or more of that dollar, mpst likely. No, the preacher does not get all the tithe of the church, and he also is instructed to give his tithe to the church as others are, neither have I stated any different. Is this legalism, no it is giving from a thankful heart. It is Him that works in us both to will and to do. Without HIS SPIRIT we will have no desire to do anything He instructs to do, but we will look for ways to ommit from HIS instructions. So, it is not us, but HIM. Not by our power, or our might, but by HIS Spirit. Are we getting any closer to the same page?

Hi moe,

Please could you answer my question about your use of the word 'tithe'?

Also, I realise we have come adrift on the word 'quarter'. I didn't mean 25c, I meant 25%!

Maybe you want to add something in light of this misunderstanding?

dorcas wrote:

Hi moe,

Please could you answer my question about your use of the word 'tithe'?

Also, I realise we have come adrift on the word 'quarter'. I didn't mean 25c, I meant 25%!

Maybe you want to add something in light of this misunderstanding?

moe_mac wrote: First of all, if there is a misunderstanding, it was my lack of realizing there was a misunderstanding. What did Abraham call a tithe? What did Jesus call a tithe? The question we must answer for ourselves is: what is a tithe. If I told you what your tithe was and you gave it on my response then you would be tithing to my word which would not benefit you at all. Mine is not the one to be concerned about, but HIS.
This is what the Hebrew says:

OT:4643
ma` aser (mah-as-ayr'); or ma` asar (mah-as-ar'); and (in plural) feminine ma` asrah (mah-as-raw'); from OT:6240; a tenth; especially a tithe:

KJV - tenth (part), tithe (-ing).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I translate that 10% before taxes, before anything. First fruits.

I hope I have cleared up any misunderstanding you have. I don't have one.

I get a little suspicious when someone ask me why do you do such or why don't you do such as such according to the law. I wonder why?

Our money may have George Washington's picture on the money or some other President or if another country a Prime Minister but it all God's money, right. Is that not what Jesus told the Pharisees when they handed HIM the coin and ask that question?

moe

Hi moe,

I'm not sure if there was a misunderstanding, as you didn't comment on my reference to a quarter.

I think many Christians refer to the money they give as their 'tithe', whichever way they calculate it, and many also believe that once they have given a tenth, they have given all that God requires of them. I needed to make sure you weren't using the term more loosely, to mean any size of money given to God. Thanks for clearing that up.

I get a little suspicious when someone ask me why do you do such or why don't you do such as such according to the law. I wonder why?

Our money may have George Washington's picture on the money or some other President or if another country a Prime Minister but it all God's money, right. [b]Is that not what Jesus told the Pharisees when they handed HIM the coin and ask that question?[/b]

But not for the reason you gave above.

I believe Jesus was drawing a comparison between God and mammon, and telling them that mammon was engraved with the image of a man, but we are engraved with the image of God. Render the image of the man to the earthly authority. Render the image of God to the heavenly authority.

Ah!... now that I'm sure by tithe you mean tenth, your previous post makes more sense. Also, when you said:

Is a quarter a week enough? It is if you only make a dollar.

You said

Neither did I state or believe that the non-money giving (service)is deductable from the tithe in money from the heart.

Example, I preach so I don't have to give back to the church of what he gave me. Does it matter how much we give? ... Will you possible be blessed more (not neccasarily in worldly possessions) if you give 11 cents or more of that dollar, mpst likely.

I don't think there is any relationship between our financial giving and our spiritual blessing, if our heart is right, although I see that our giving can be a reflection of spiritual dearth. God is looking on the heart, not the pocket, when He blesses. And those with so little they cannot give a whole tithe can be just as blessed by Him in their penury, (if not more) than those who have a good job and a full tithe to bring.

I believe the New Testament speaks of quite different situations - from riches to poverty - and gives guidance on how to receive both, view both and manage both, with a right attitude to God.

dorcas wrote:
God is looking on the heart, not the pocket, when He blesses. And those with so little they cannot give a whole tithe can be just as blessed by Him in their penury, (if not more) than those who have a good job and a full tithe to bring.

moe wrote: edited: Exactly, Where your treasure is your heart will be also. As I said in the earlier post, the post I have repeatedly referred you back to. It is not about the money, but the heart. 10% is 10%, regardless of what your income is. What I meant to say earlier, if you make a 1 dollar a week and give 10 cents, that's a good as 1000 dollars and giving 100 dollars. I just got the math wrong, trying to focuse on the true subject, which is the heart. God doesn't need money or HE would just keep all of it, it's
his anyway, and not let us have any strength or any resources to make or receive anything to give back to HIM.Whom ever signs our check is just a resource. God is our source. As he gives to us, HE is just checking our stewardship out I think and the heart. He is patience and merciful with all of us, not wanting anyone to perish but all to come to knowledge of the truth. The rich young ruler went away sad, because he had great possesions. Were the possesions that great or did he just think the possesions were great? If we don't excel in any other spiritual gift, we can in giving and finance someone like Paul Washer going into the Andes mountians and preaching the gospel. If we have other gifts, to whom much is given, much is required.
Moe

moe_mac wrote:
dorcas wrote:
God is looking on the heart, not the pocket, when He blesses. And those with so little they cannot give a whole tithe can be just as blessed by Him in their penury, (if not more) than those who have a good job and a full tithe to bring.

edited:10/05/07
moe wrote: edited: God may think Something is missing in a christian life is they don't give back part of what HE gives them. Where your treasure is your heart will be also. As I said in the earlier post, the post I have repeatedly referred you back to. It is not about the money, but the heart. 10% is 10%, regardless of what your income is. What I meant to say earlier, if you make a 1 dollar a week and give 10 cents, that's a good as 1000 dollars and giving 100 dollars. I just got the math wrong, trying to focus on the true subject,which is the heart. God doesn't need money or HE would just keep all of it. It is
all his anyway because he created us and gave us the intelligence and the strength and the resources to make money and anything he gives us above needs is for blessings others. Whom ever signs our check is just a resource. God is our source. As he gives to us, HE is just checking our stewardship out I think and the heart. He is patience and merciful with all of us, not wanting anyone to perish but all to come to knowledge of the truth. The rich young ruler went away sad, because he had great possesions. Were the possesions that great or did he just think the possesions were great? If we don't excel in any other spiritual gift, we can in giving and finance someone like Paul Washer going into the Andes mountians and preaching the gospel. If we have other gifts, to whom much has been given, much is required.
Moe

moe_mac wrote:
dorcas wrote:
God is looking on the heart, not the pocket, when He blesses. And those with so little they cannot give a whole tithe can be just as blessed by Him in their penury, (if not more) than those who have a good job and a full tithe to bring.

edited:10/05/07
moe wrote: edited: If the tithe is missing it could be because SOMETHING ELSE IS MISSING which flows from the heart as we love the Lord God with all heart and all our strength and all our mind. Our sins killed Jesus and that is why He died. The Jews did not kill HIM, he lay down HIS life for us. He could have called 10 thousand angels but HE did not for us. He rose again so we could too. Are we grateful for that grace because HE died in our place on that cross for the sins of all who would believe in HIM. God may think Something is missing in a christian's life if they don't give back part of what HE gives them at the cross and in material blessings. Where your treasure is your heart will be also. As I said in the earlier post and I have repeatedly referred you back to it. It is not about the money, but the heart. 10% is 10%, regardless of what your income is. What I meant to say earlier, if you make a 1 dollar a week and give 10 cents, that's a good as 1000 dollars and giving 100 dollars. I just got the math wrong, trying to focus on the true subject,which is the heart. God doesn't need money or HE would just keep all of it. All the money is all his anyway because he created us and gave us the intelligence and the strength and the resources to make money and anything he gives us above our needs is only for blessings others. The person that signs our check is just one of HIS resources. God is our source. As GOD gave us HIS SON and continues and will continue for eternity to supply our needs. He who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we [i]might[/i] be the righteousness of God Here on earth he is just checking our stewardship in everyway to reveal the motives of the heart that HE already knows. Why would HE need to reveal them if HE knows anyway? A question to ponder. He is patience and merciful with all of us, not wanting anyone to perish but all to come to knowledge of HIS truth. The rich young ruler went away sad, because he had great possesions. Were the possesions that the rich young ruler had that great or did he just think they were? If we don't excel in any other spiritual gift, we can in giving and finance someone like Paul Washer going into the Andes mountians and preaching the gospel. If we have other gifts, to whom much has been given, much is required. I did not see where in widows mite story where she had a good job.
Moe

Hi moe,

It took until your post before this last one for me to realise you were using the title of the thread as the springboard for the angle you were taking in your comments. I'm sorry for being soo slow as not to realise that!

You said:

If the tithe is missing it could be because SOMETHING ELSE IS MISSING which flows from the heart as we love the Lord God with all heart and all our strength and all our mind.

Because you've mentioned the beginning of that chapter, I'll start there, because it also is a masterpiece of translation, I think. It captures something of the dynamic and organic nature of being conformed to Christ's inward image:

[i]Romans 12
I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercifulness of God, that you make you bodies a quick [living] sacrifce holy and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable serving of God. And fashion not yourselves like unto this world. But be ye changed in your shape, by the renewing of your wits that ye may feel what thing that good, that acceptable, and perfect will of God is. For I say (through the grace that unto me given is) to every man among you that no man esteem himself more than it becometh him to esteem: but that he discreetly judge of himself according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

As we have many members in one body, and all members have not one office: so we being many are one body in Christ and every man (among ourselves) one another's members. Seeing that we have divers gifts according to the grace that is given unto us: [b]if any man have the gift of prophecy* let him have it that it be agreeing unto the faith. Let him that has an office wait on that office. Let him that teacheth, take heed to his doctrine. Let him that exhorteth, give attendance to his exhortation[/b]...[/i]

* Tyndale's marginal note:
Prophecy is taken here for the expounding of scriptures, which in dark places must be expounded that it agree to the open places and general articles of the faith.

The sentences I've emboldened are, to my mind, outstanding. If this is what the other translations try to mean, it was never as clear [u]to me[/u] as here. The integrity of Paul's intention which hit me brought a thrill to my soul.

Somehow, it wrenched the use of the gifts into their proper place and go along with two important concepts which should precede them. First, that church leaders should be examples to the flock, and second, that the spiritual gifts are not a badge of office which permit those who have them, to control others but not themselves being conformed to them (or by them).

dorcas wrote:

Hi moe,

It took until your post before this last one for me to realise you were using the title of the thread as the springboard for the angle you were taking in your comments. I'm sorry for being soo slow as not to realise that!

You said:

If the tithe is missing it could be because SOMETHING ELSE IS MISSING which flows from the heart as we love the Lord God with all heart and all our strength and all our mind.

This comment sort of confirmed that realisation, and it also offers a good springboard for the other bit of Tyndale I wanted to share with you, from Romans 12.

Because you've mentioned the beginning of that chapter, I'll start there, because it also is a masterpiece of translation, I think. It captures something of the dynamic and organic nature of being conformed to Christ's inward image:

[i]Romans 1
I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercifulness of God, that you make you bodies a quick [living] sacrifce holy and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable serving of God. And fashion not yourselves like unto this world. But be ye changed in your shape, by the renewing of your wits that ye may feel what thing that good, that acceptable, and perfect will of God is. For I say (through the grace that unto me given is) to every man among you that no man esteem himself more than it becometh him to esteem: but that he discreetly judge of himself according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

As we have many members in one body, and all members have not one office: so we being many are one body in Christ and every man (among ourselves) one another's members. Seeing that we have divers gifts according to the grace that is given unto us: [b]if any man have the gift of prophecy* let him have it that it be agreeing unto the faith. Let him that has an office wait on that office. Let him that teacheth, take heed to his doctrine. Let him that exhorteth, give attendance to his exhortation[/b]...[/i]

* Tyndale's marginal note:
Prophecy is taken here for the expounding of scriptures, which in dark places must be expounded that it agree to the open places and general articles of the faith.

The sentences I've emboldened are, to my mind, outstanding. If this is what the other translations try to mean, it was never as clear [u]to me[/u] as here. The integrity of Paul's intention which hit me brought a thrill to my soul.

Somehow, it wrenched the use of the gifts into their proper place and go along with two important concepts which should precede them. First, that church leaders should be examples to the flock, and second, that the spiritual gifts are not a badge of office which permit those who have them, to control others but not themselves being conformed to them (or by them).

moe_mac wrote: So can I take that as a disagreement that everything flows form the heart?
I rest HIS case.

moe said

So can I take that as a disagreement that everything flows form the heart?

Even if we spent a whole page defining 'heart', I don't think I could agree to that statement, because 'heart' is only [i]part[/i] of a person's being.

But, if you want me to agree, formally, in simple words, that when a person's heart is right their [i]giving[/i] is right, I can do that. :-)

But, we do still [u]dis[/u]agree on what constitutes enough rightness of heart for a person's giving to be acceptable [u]to God[/u], because you don't agree that gifts in kind are deductable from monetary gifts. Whereas, I do - if the heart which is offering a gift-in-kind, is doing so from a [u]right heart and motive[/u]. Who are we to be judging that, anyway? I would not take that upon myself, except with regard to my own giving, or those of whom I know [u]all[/u] the details of their assets.

You also mentioned tax, and again I disagree. For a start, not everyone pays tax, and sometimes the tax system is weighted so much against the middle classes, that to tithe from gross salary is going to make a huge difference to their lives depending on their other prior financial commitments.

Having said that, I don't have a problem with Christians giving up everything to live in a shack with cold water at a pump if it's cheaper, and that's what they feel God wants them to do because they can give more thereby. But it's an individual choice before God, not something which can be imposed on them by others.

By making any stipulations, you are interfering at quite a basic level with the freedom of an individual to give what and as much as he can to God, within the opportunities available to him at that time, and, within what God lays on him.

Circumstances change. Some people get richer and can afford to give more (quantity) and other people get poorer. To my mind, the more\\most important aspect of giving, is that is should be honestly God-honouring. Some people would be better to get out of debt, than to continue paying interest on an overdraft or credit card, for instance. Being debt-free is God-honouring, if it is possible.

But God is well-aware of money markets, and that some people are up to their neck in debt when they come to Him. Such a person's [u]priority[/u] would be to repent of an extravagant or profligate lifestyle, and stop wasting [u]God's[/u] money; then to pay back what is owed; then to give to God what [u]God[/u] shows them to give. (I don't mean they shouldn't give anything to God in the meantime, but, that might be as valid a way to go, if that's [i]God's[/i] leading to them.)

An example of giving-in-kind, might be for a consultant in an expensive service, to give such service free (perhaps a lawyer or accountant), thus giving up many hours of personal time, for the benefit of others who could never afford his expert advice. This consulancy might be offered to a church, or charity. Of course, such a person might also give monetarily, if they could afford to. But it is an [i]assumption[/i] that rich Christians stay rich. Real Christians make sure they don't [i]die[/i] 'rich', as that is the best way to prove they don't value money above God's word.

So, going back to what I posted of Romans 12 (I think I forgot the '2' of 12, sorry. I'll fix that when I've finished this post.) I don't understand why you assume I'm [i]trying[/i] to disagree with you through those verses, or what there is to disagree about, in it. How can either of us disagree with scripture?

dorcas wrote:

So, going back to what I posted of Romans 12 (I think I forgot the '2' of 12, sorry. I'll fix that when I've finished this post.) I don't understand why you assume I'm [i]trying[/i] to disagree with you through those verses, or what there is to disagree about, in it. How can either of us disagree with scripture?

My replys to your post and also posts merely stating what I interpret and is up to each one to discard or except but is each ones advantage accepting if it is true, no skin off the my back if it is true but not accepted. It is skin off my back if it is not true. You can call my replies a spring board if you wish to but are they truth is the main factor. ALL have a choice, just as I have a choice when I read other interpretations to be true or false to confirm or discard to be error.

I am firmly convinced if I did a post titled " THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD". Many would reply with "What are you saying moe that he's not my SHEPHERD TOO?

This has nothing to do with the post below just thought it would be good place to change the subject. I have rested HIS CASE. If you want the last word, go for it.

Psalm 23 - - EXPLAINED
This is an eye opener... Some probably never thought nor looked at this Psalm in this way... even though they say it over and over again.

The Lord is My Shepherd

THAT'S RELATIONSHIP

I shall not want

That's Supply!

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures.

That's Rest!

He leadeth me beside the still waters.
That's Refreshment!

He restoreth my soul
That's Healing!

He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness.
That's Guidance!

For His name sake
That's Purpose!

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
That's Testing!

I will fear no evil.
That's Protection!

For Thou art with me
That's Faithfulness!

Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me,
That's Discipline!

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies.
That's Hope!

Thou anointest my head with oil,
That's Consecration!

My cup runneth over.
That's Abundance!

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life.
That's Blessing!

And I will dwell in the house of the Lord.
That's Security!

Blessings moe

moe, you've made me smile :-)

I am firmly convinced if I did a post titled " THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD". Many would reply with "What are you saying moe that he's not my SHEPHERD TOO?

I am never expecting to find total agreement, because I've very slowly realised that the word of God comes to us by various routes, including the Bible, other Christians, and God's own ways of capitalising opportunistically on ordinary every day situations of which only He knows the details of every person's life. He does not, as Jesus said, come to doctor those who are well, but those who are sick, so we can be sure if He is speaking on something to us, it's something we need to adjust according to the new light He brings.

As a result, while anyone can present a fixed or orthodox standpoint, the people who are most interesting to hear from are those whose lives are being gradually re-modelled according to the way God is speaking to them and leading, from an original set of presumptions to an altered perspective. They can easily be spotted by the [i]freshness[/i] they bring to an old truth.

Your post of Psalm 23 falls into that category. And I enjoyed it immensely.

The thing is, as we internalise what God says to us, it is unlikely when we explain it to someone else, to sound like His original nudgings, because we can never recapture that mindset we had at the time, which He has now changed. But, we have grasped a truth or its application, and this we can share in various ways, in our own words.

It is slowly dawning on me, some people here just want to be agreed with... which is not in itself wrong... perhaps I could do more of it - ;-) - because I remember needing a lot of reassurance that what I was changing in response to what I [i]thought[/i] was 'God's word', was indeed verifyable by an objective authority, such as a saint with more experience, or scripture. It is always a joy to find one's experience of God's dealings, laid out in some detail of the scriptural account of His word to others or His dealings with [i]them[/i].

On p3 Jeff (rookie) asked, quoting from Job 33:14 - 30

According to Scripture visions and dreams are one way that God speaks to His children...

How many ways do you see highlighted in this section of Scripture?

16 - he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction

This means God makes a man to hear Him and writes His specific word within the man in an unmistakable way [1]

19 - He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]

This means God gets his attention by allowing him to become profoundly unwell as a result of sin (chastening = correction) [2]

23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

This means He makes the man know he is valued, by saving him from his worst possible fate, by finding a way not dependent on the man, for his fate to be averted (other way = the lamb slain) [3]

26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy

This means God answers prayer, and reveals Himself to the man that way, which brings the man joy. If nothing else, this is one of the most coject proofs of God's existence and love. [4]

27 He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not;
28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit,

This means He is just to acknowledge repentant hearts who recognise their sin and that sin is a fruitless expedition into the dry and empty cul-de-sac of personal gain. [5]

28 ... and his life shall see the light.

He reveals Himself as the true Light to this man [6]

29 Lo, all these worketh God oftentimes with man,
30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

God shows Himself attentive, faithful and consistent to rescue the man time after time, and to continue to lead him into the light of life. [7]

Okay. That makes seven ways. How did I do? :-D

And also by what means are all of these works accomplished?

From day 2 of the Revival Conference, Canton, Ohio:

'The Old Covenant = you do, I do

The New Covenant = you believe, I do

Love one another.

~ Carter Conlon

In my leading post, I wrote:

In fact, I was horrified recently to learn how much OT scripture is used to support the 'prosperity gospel' - some of it is even reversed in meaning from its original context - and yet unchallenged by modern believers. How so?

Beloved, this is a very simple way for the enemy to entangle us or keep us in bondage, and it is a tool to prevent the renewing of our minds.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20038&forum=35&start=100&106]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20038&forum=35&start=100&106[/url]