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Mother Teresa

C
chadster

If this has been previously posted and I missed it, my apologies. I was captivated by the news that a new book is being published "Come be My Light" which details Mother Teresa's journey of the dark night of the soul. I read that during the last 40 years of her life, she felt the absence of God's presence in her life.

Here's a quote from one of her writings:

Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me? The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone ... Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony.

So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them — because of the blasphemy — If there be God — please forgive me — When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven — there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. — I am told God loves me — and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?
— addressed to Jesus, at the suggestion of a confessor, undated

S
sojourner7

Mother Theresa's ministry was to the forgotten,
the neglected, the outcasts who were abandoned
by society. So she had to experience this in
her own heart in order that she understand
what it means and how it feels to be so alone!
This is a very hard path to follow and walk.

C
chadster

Thank you, Sojourner, I couldn't agree with you more; and I apologize that I didn't mention in my original post that I was in no way suggesteing any criticism against Mother Teresa...in my book, she was indeed a saint! I believe that those who experience the severest trials of their faith, as she did, are those who truly walk closest to God.

It's just a shame that the anti-Christ spirit is now using this to say that if a woman who avowed such a deep faith as Mother Teresa had such doubts, then certainly there is NO validity to faith. Of course, we understand that the natural mind does not understand the things of the spirit, so there's no sense in even trying to make them understand.

It's my prayer that God may use even this to bring honor and glory to His name!

C
Compton

Many people admire Theresa, perhaps because she is an emblem of good works. Quotes from her posthumous autobiography are troubling to us because they indicate she never really had peace, or even comfort from God, inspite of her good works.

MC

P
PaulWest

she never really had peace, or even comfort from God, inspite of her good works.

I wonder if the same could be said for Mueller or Aylward?

T
tjservant

Brother Paul and Compton

Would you elaborate on your statements as well as this topic in general?

I find this topic, this lack of peace, very interesting and would like to know more.

Thank you in advance.

R
roaringlamb

Brethren consider these quotes-

“I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.”
-Everything Starts With Prayer

“Some call Him Ishwar, some call Him Allah, some simply God, but we have to acknowledge that it is He who made us for greater things: to love and be loved. What matters is that we love. We cannot love without prayer, and so whatever religion we are, we must pray together.”

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men -- simply better -- we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life -- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."
-Life in the Spirit: Reflections, Meditations, and Prayers

It is difficult to see how a person could have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and think that there is any other name under Heaven by which men should be saved. She, like john Paul II dedicated their ministries to Mother Mary, and held to the Roman doctrine of Marian exaltation.

C
Compton

Hi tjservant,

Would you elaborate on your statements as well as this topic in general?

While not wanting to make any specific comment on the authenticity of Theresa's faith, I did want to draw attention to the pitfall many zealous and sincere Christians fall into. This pitfall is especially important to consider in light of the upcoming revival conference, where no doubt many eager people will be tempted to adress the sub-standard condition of the Church by demanding she work harder, run faster and jump higher then she is currently doing.

The reason I made the comment I did, is that from my own Christian experience, such a well-intentioned approach can actually produce dispair instead of hope. By emphasizing good works we may indeed temporarily find a measure of hope that things will be better for our souls, but soon find a gospel of works only amplifies our own inward hopeless condition rather then alleviate it. This is because everywhere we apply our hands towards goodness, we are reminded of our former corruption. If we feed the poor, some soon realize they are doing so out of pride, or worse yet, that they only give out of their abundance and therefore remain hypocrites. Some even give to the poor as a self-righteous rebuke to the rich.

If, at the end of our good works, we are looking for peace, that blessed consolation from God justifying us once and for all, we soon become more spiritually impoverished and intellectually dispairing then ever. (That is, if we are fortunate enough not to become self-righteous and confident of our own lives...a dreadful curse to fall under.)

In any case, only the soul that has found perfect forgiveness in Christ is free enough to act without care for imperfect personal motives. If I give to the poor not out of love, but out of a desire to be accepted by God, what kind of love is this? Even the heathen will take action to save themselves. This is not to say, that a forgiven person has no corruption remaining in his motives, but that he is confident of forgiveness even for his impure motives and can help people purely out of love, derriving no selfish merit in the act.

The Christian's hope and peace is not in his imperfect good works but in the perfect good work of Christ. It seems to me that many revival-earnest saints do not hold fast to this most important truth of the Gospel. Many liberal humanistic theologies, and the emergent church's 'generous' orthodoxies including 'new perspectivism', also fail to minister to the condemned and unforgiven soul in this regard. I suspect, from reading some of her comparitive religion writings, that even Theresa suffered from doctrinal deficiency in this area.

Perhaps the best single testimony to the futility of putting hope in works is Wesley well known sermon, The Almost Christian.

"I did go thus far for many years, as many of this place can testify; using diligence to eschew all evil, and to have a conscience void of offence; redeeming the time; buying up every opportunity of doing all good to all men; constantly and carefully using all the public and all the private means of grace; endeavouring after a steady seriousness of behaviour, at all times, and in all places; and, God is my record, before whom I stand, doing all this in sincerity; having a real design to serve God; a hearty desire to do his will in all things; to please him who had called me to "fight the good fight," and to "lay hold of eternal life." Yet my own conscience beareth me witness in the Holy Ghost, that all this time I was but almost a Christian...

Yea, dost thou believe that Christ loved thee, and gave himself for thee? Hast thou faith in his blood? Believest thou the Lamb of God hath taken away thy sins, and cast them as a stone into the depth of the sea? that he hath blotted out the handwriting that was against thee, taking it out of the way, nailing it to his cross? Hast thou indeed redemption through his blood, even the remission of thy sins? And doth his Spirit bear witness with thy spirit, that thou art a child of God?

May we all thus experience what it is to be, not almost only; but altogether Christians; being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus; knowing we have peace with God through Jesus Christ; rejoicing in hope of the glory of God; and having the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost given unto us!"


MC

T
theopenlife

I'm confused. I thought that Mother Teresa was a blatant Marian Catholic, denied that salvation was by grace through faith alone, and encouraged others of different faiths to remain in their false religions so long as they were sincere? If the above is true, the quotes posted by Chadster are not in the least surprising.

I need to check my sources.

Great post, Compton.

S
sermonindex

Could all the replies to this post or should I say lack of, be the reason the revelation of what your post indicated could be a problem in the upcoming about revival conference and hearts of the people? Lord have mercy on me, which one went away more justified right.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19002&forum=45&3

C
crsschk

In any case, only the soul that has found perfect forgiveness in Christ is free enough to act without care for imperfect personal motives.

May we all thus experience what it is to be, not almost only; but altogether Christians; being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus; knowing we have peace with God through Jesus Christ;

"Free", "Freely"

MC couldn't but help recall;

[i]But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing[/i]

As relating to the works of 'good' that we do for any and all the reasons ... free to forget, without care as you so well put it.

Outstanding reply brother

T
tjservant

Thanks for such a thoughtful and enlightening reply Compton.

C
chadster

By all means, for those of you who are following this thread, please read the recent post by swsojourner under News/Current Events:

"Finding Joy in the Darkest Night, the Divine Abandonment of Mother Teresa"

Thank you for this excellent post!

S
ssweber

It is also common to be incredibly strict on oneself during times of reflection... while enjoying God's consolation and acceptance at every other moment.

You'll know a Christian by his or her fruit, not by their confession letters :)

R
roaringlamb

"Mary is our mother, the cause of our joy.
Being a mother, I have never had difficulty
in talking with Mary and feeling close to her."
-Mother Teresa

"When the Congregation of the Missionaries of Charity had just been established, we urgently needed a building for the Congregation's Motherhouse. To get it, I promised the Virgin to pray 85,000 Memorares.

Here is the prayer-
[i]Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly to you, O virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.[/i]"

A memorare is the following-
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy
protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.
Amen.

More quotes-
"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers."

"There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ:
Jesus is my God,
Jesus is my Spouse,
Jesus is my Life,
Jesus is my only Love,
Jesus is my All in All;
Jesus is my Everything."

"A clean heart is a free heart. A free heart can love Christ with an undivided love in chastity, convinced that nothing and nobody will separate it from his love. Purity, chastity, and virginity created a special beauty in Mary that attracted God’s attention. He showed his great love for the world by giving Jesus to her."

While her works were admirable, this in no way shape or form makes her a Christian.

The Roman Catholic view of salvation is such that you must work in order to be saved, as they do not believe in justification by faith alone. Thus they must strive, and sanctify themselves to be justified. This is why they are so prone to works that seem wondrous to men, yet lack the Gospel(and no, people are not miraculously converted apart from the preaching of the Gospel. The Gospel alone is the means God has ordained to bring His people to faith).

In our day since many professing Protestants do not understand, or agree with Rome's view on justification, there is little surprise that a woman who attributed co-redemption, and sovereignty to Mary would be attractive to the Church at large.

M
MaryJane

Greetings
I agree with what you shared here roaringlamb 100%
No amount of good deeds or good works can get anyone into Heaven. It does not matter if a person lives their entire life in service to others, if it is apart from Christ then it is nothing. There is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus. He alone is the way the truth and the light.

God Bless
MaryJane

S
sermonindex

I suggest everyone contributing to this thread re-read the Book of Job. Pay particular attention to Job's "friends" who opine that his suffering must be due to some fault of his own.

You may also want to meditate on our Lord's moment alone on the Cross: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (PSA 22:1, MATT 27:46)

One last thing:

"Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: [i]but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.[/i]" (JAM 4:11)

S
sermonindex


Corey_H wrote:
I suggest everyone contributing to this thread re-read the Book of Job. Pay particular attention to Job's "friends" who opine that his suffering must be due to some fault of his own.

You may also want to meditate on our Lord's moment alone on the Cross: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (PSA 22:1, MATT 27:46)

One last thing:

"Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: [i]but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.[/i]" (JAM 4:11)


moe_mac wrote:
and judgeth his brother.

I understand your point and agree and I also feel it is by HIS grace we are saved and by HIS mercy we don’t all bust hell wide open. However, about judging, when I hear or see this comment, I am compelled this once again. If we punished a brother in a physical sense, then you have been the Judge and have judged. Merely making a statement about someone or something is not judging. If it were actually judging then all the Apostles, all the preachers, that are called by God and to preach the Word, and we have many who are not called by God that think they are preaching, but are only tickling ears trying to win the approval of men, and also all other Christians that speak God word would be guilty of what you are calling judging. Brother this is coined term by the liberals strait out of the mouth of devil to silence the voice of what is sin and is not sin. Often when a comment is made in the manner you call judging, it has nothing to do with and what I am referring to, but ask yourself, if you think that speaking something would be actually judging. Just what does a judge do when he judges!!!!!!!!! If we were judging when we spoke, no one would have dread in going to court or have any fear of punishment, if the judge only said you sinned. Are you sure this was what James was referring to in James 4:11. We should not slander or speak evil, but keep it in proportion.
Governments have been giving permission by God to Judge the lawless in punishment for controlling evil on this earth. God is the Judge in eternal matters.
It is a twisting scripture to use it in that manner. No, it is not Christian like to slander or hurt someone, but the letter kills, when you read it and consider what God calls holiness. We all fall short if is all did not for his grace and mercy, we have no hope.

God Bless Brother. I’m just giving what I understand, as we all do. Not judging!!!!!


edit: When the Pharisees had judged the women caught in act of adultery and decided she needed stoned according to their law and Jesus said he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone. He meant that literally, by what he said. They actually stoned people then. That's what James was saying in James 4:11.

S
sermonindex

moe_mac said

Merely making a statement about someone or something is not judging. If it were actually judging then all the Apostles, all the preachers, that are called by God and to preach the Word, and we have many who are not called by God that think they are preaching, but are only tickling ears trying to win the approval of men, and also all other Christians that speak God word would be guilty of what you are calling judging. Brother this is coined term by the liberals strait out of the mouth of devil to silence the voice of what is sin and is not sin....

It is a twisting scripture to use it in that manner.

So far on this thread people have opined that Teresa was unsaved being a "Marian Catholic", "fell into a pitfall" of works-based faith, or perhaps wasn't saved because she wasn't constantly filled with spirit-filled joy.

Though I don't dare openly speculate as to her relationship with God - especially by her post-humously released notes (shamefully released against her will, no less) - I will offer some scripture that ought to humble the most zealous armchair Christian:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (JAM 2:18)

She did it all to please her Lord. Who are we to judge this dead woman's motives or standing with the Lord?

moe_mac, you can judge with words. And one day you will stand before Him and explain every word you ever spoke:

"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. [i]For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.[/i]" (MATT 12:35 - 37)

C
Compton

Corey,

Your warnings towards not dismissing works are very well recieved.

For my part I am not so concerned with discussing Theresa, as much as I am interested in discussing the ultimate futility of using works to find peace with the Lord.

Theresa's autobiography was simply a reminder. If a great woman like her felt herself distant from the Lord, then what hope do any of us have of finding a refuge in God from our works? This is not to judge her salvation...which is not the issue for me at all. Nor is it to discourage doing good works! (That would be an unfortunate misreading of my post at least.)And certainly this is not to elevate myself over anyone else...

On a broader level, I also wanted to briefly comment on the possibility that Theresa was some type of suffering mystic on the order of St John of the Cross. Now in considering Theresa's pessismistic and bewildered confessions, I suppose it is reasonable to wonder if she might have simply had a sensitive melancholy disposition. Many times I have noticed that in extreme pressure or lonliness, creative and melancholic souls tend to become mystical about their own anxieties and trials.

I certainly can relate to this tendency...though I do not think it is especially healthy. A mystic can see their own feelings of abandonment as a type of cosmic fellowship with the broken heart of Christ...which is all very compelling on the surface. Yet, it may be that the mystic has reversed the order of fellowship with Christ...forgetting that Jesus became a man and suffered as a man in order to condescend to man...not so that man could ascend to Him through mystic doors. He understands our needs, and is touched with the feeling of our infirmities.

So, if we try to see Theresa's sadness as a type of mystical higher calling, keep in mind we may be pointing some people who are struggling with depression and sadness towards emulating her depression, and not her good works.

This whole issue of finding peace with God is really the focus of my post. My point is simply that we sometimes endure unnessecary personal torment. Some even decide that prolonged physcological anguish is a type of spiritual journey with Christ. I am wary of this interpretation of extended depression.

If we would find peace in ourselves, we must find and know acceptance from the Lord. This peace is through faith in the Lord Jesus. Yet, I believe it is possible to be a Christian, while continuing to wonder and doubt that the Lamb's sacrifice has answered God's wrath. I feel we all struggle with this to some extent. Many of us try to medicate this anxiety with good works...but ultimately to no avail.

Works are not a pitfall! However works justification is a great pitfall. Now Theresa was obviously concerned with more then with her own peace...she was laboring in love for others, even without the benifit of personal peace. This is noble and perhaps a sign of personal strength. So for me this is not a discussion on the merit or value of Theresa's life. My comments were specifically adressing a tendency to see works as a means of finding peace with God. Thesesa's confessions are a troubling reminder that while good works are praisewothy, and sorely needed in this world, they are a non sequitur towards finding peace with God.

MC

S
sermonindex

Mother Teresa did much good in the world. I respect her for her humanitarian work. She put everyone else to shame.

Unfortunately, she held strongly to Catholic beliefs, and she stated plainly in her writings that her faith for salvation was in "the Church" and in Mary. So, sad to say, by her own admission, she was never saved.

Perhaps she didnt feel the presence of God in her life because she never had the presence of God in her life.

Before I'm accused of being judgemental... I'm not. I'm comparing her own statements of what she believed against scripture. The Word of God does the judging.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Wow-

I don't know how anyone can read the quotes that roaringlamb has posted and still feel the need to "stick up" for mother Teresa. Funny that earlier someone said:

It's just a shame that the anti-Christ spirit is now using this to say that if a woman who avowed such a deep faith as Mother Teresa had such doubts...

I think it a shame that we look at the good works of an openly and blatant idolater and the antichrist spirit says "do not judge this women"....

1 Corinthians 6 (NIV)
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you


If Mother Teresa died in her sin and idolatry she will burn in hell forever as an enemy of the cross of Jesus Christ despite any profession in the faith and her "good works".

In Christ - Jim

S
sermonindex


Corey_H wrote:
So far on this thread people have opined that Teresa was unsaved being a "Marian Catholic", "fell into a pitfall" of works-based faith, or perhaps wasn't saved because she wasn't constantly filled with spirit-filled joy.

Though I don't dare openly speculate as to her relationship with God - especially by her post-humously released notes (shamefully released against her will, no less) - I will offer some scripture that ought to humble the most zealous armchair Christian:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (JAM 2:18)

She did it all to please her Lord. Who are we to judge this dead woman's motives or standing with the Lord?

"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. [i]For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.[/i]" (MATT 12:35 - 37)


you can judge with words. And one day you will stand before Him and explain every word you ever spoke:


moe_mac wrote: I have not judged anyone. I leave that job to the judge. I did not speak negatively or positively about her and if I had, it would have not been judging. When you administered punishment you have judged or spoke what I knew to be false about her or someone, which would be baring false witness. I was only responsing to a twisted scripture about judging.


I know that why I strive to speak what I know he says and give people truth about what judging is.
When you tell people from HIS what God says, the devil says, "Did God really say"

You might want to look at his one too.
Matt 5:19-20
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
KJV

How much righteousness did the Pharisees have? Not enough to believe what Jesus said or receive any of HIS righteousness and therefore let Jesus impact their life.

S
sermonindex

Compton said

If a great woman like her felt herself distant from the Lord, then what hope do any of us have of finding a refuge in God from our works?

A refuge from works? A vacation? Is this what our Lord died for?

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [i]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.[/i]" (MATT 24:44-46)

On a broader level, I also wanted to briefly comment on the possibility that Theresa was some type of suffering mystic on the order of St John of the Cross...

And what prophet or saint hasn't suffered? Or what kind of Christian doesn't suffer?

"It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart. [i]Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.[/i] The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth." (ECC 7:2-4)

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; [i]if so be that we suffer with him[/i], that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (ROM 8:16-18)

So, if we try to see Theresa's sadness as a type of mystical higher calling, keep in mind we may be pointing some people who are struggling with depression and sadness towards emulating her depression, and not her good works.

You've formed your own image of her in your mind. You've made her into a heathen mystic instead of a charitable woman.

This whole issue of finding peace with God is really the focus of my post...

If we would find peace in ourselves, we must find and know acceptance from the Lord. This peace is through faith in the Lord Jesus...

"They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace." (JER 6:14)

I hope you're kidding. Because my Bible says I'm at unceasing war with the flesh, the world, and the devil. My Bible says that the prophets were terrified at the presence of the Lord. My Bible describes the Word proceeding from the Lord's mouth as a two-edged flame of sword that will immolate everything but silver and gold.

If I ever want "inner peace", I'll take a yoga class or read some Christian self-help book by Rick Warren.

'Till then, I'll wrestle with the flesh, the world and the devil on a minute by minute basis.

Works are not a pitfall! However works justification is a great pitfall. Now Theresa was obviously concerned with more then with her own peace...she was laboring in love for others, even without the benifit of personal peace. This is noble and perhaps a sign of personal strength. So for me this is not a discussion on the merit or value of Theresa's life. My comments were specifically adressing a tendency to see works as a means of finding peace with God. Thesesa's confessions are a troubling reminder that while good works are praisewothy, and sorely needed in this world, they are a non sequitur towards finding peace with God.

She didn't cut the rotting, stinking, dead flesh off of lepers to make peace with God. She did it to please Him and because He told her to do it.

S
sermonindex

KrispyKrittr said,

Perhaps she didnt feel the presence of God in her life because she never had the presence of God in her life.

Or perhaps she didn't need the constant signs and wonders the evangelicals keep demanding from God.

Who requires more attention and supervision? The employee who can't keep up with the workload or the one who effortlessly does the work of four men in half the time?

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (LUKE 12:48)

When the Holy Ghost doesn't talk to a man or woman, that person must be greatly blessed or greatly damned.

G
ginnyrose

To me Teresa is an enigma. I admire greatly her work with the poor. I also admire her selflessness, her denial of personal comforts in order to assist the downtrodden; her attitude towards to poor. She puts most Christians to shame.

Then one reads of her allegience to Marian theology and it raises lots of red flags....Marian theology, as I understand it, would be tantamount to idoltry.

She is dead. Whether she knew the LORD as her Saviour, God knows and that is all I need to know and can rest with that.

In the meantime, I am puzzled with her ability to raise huge sums of money to fund her projects...perhaps I must relegate this question to the unanswerable file...

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

To me Teresa is an enigma. I admire greatly her work with the poor. I also admire her selflessness, her denial of personal comforts in order to assist the downtrodden; her attitude towards to poor. She puts most Christians to shame.

[if] The things she did were done for an idolatrous reason, a humanitarian reason, etc, they are vile acts. If it was not for the glory of the one true God then her works are nothing but filthy rags. If she strengthened sinners in their sins by lending validity to their faith in false Gods (hinduism, etc) then her works only further those lies that damn mens souls and dishonor the one true God.

If I sell my house to buy medicine for a dying man and offer it to him in the name of the virgin mary I have done and evil thing and my lot will be in the lake of fire with all idolaters unless I repent.

This is a hard word, who can accept it?

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex

Brethren, The tension we are feeling, is in our quest to be loving as "He is Love".
John tell us, "in _ beginning was The Word [Logos], and The Word was with God, and The Word was God.
In Revelation 19:13 - HE is returning and His Name is still "The Word of God".
Our Bibles are called "The Word of God".
One knows that they are Saved by their Love of The Logos. Both He Himself and His written Word.
Of this and only this, should we be extremely jealous, lest our compassion, extensions, sympathies and so forth exceed that of God Himself, which is a contradiction in terms or thoughts.
Our jealousy for The Logos, should - in comparison, to our love for even parents, siblings, spouses, friends, would be as hate.
If we cannot separate Christ the Logos from The Logos of the written Word, [being the only source written of and by Him], then our jealousy to abide and not contradict Him, is where our hearts of Love toward Him should be. By this, do we know that we Love Him. We would never consciously intend to contradict Him, in any of our thoughts or words, but yet, as we grow in Him - there are times in our attempts toward showing His Mercy, that we may step outside the strict parameters of His Word.
If a person does not jealousy and unconditionally love and guard The Word of God, than that will cause them to "go beyond what is written" and our love for The Word of God should be questioned and prayed over, if we name The Name.
When 'our' compassion, mercy, sympathy, grace - exceeds that of The Word of God or contradicts The Word of God, than we are in error. Remembering always that The Word of God is Who we now call Jesus.
Humans by nature swing as a pendulum between being less compassionate than The Word of God or in their attempts to be "merciful", exceeds the compassion of The Word of God. The only plume line is The Word of God, lest we pardon those, who have not His pardon and by doing so, lead others astray.
This is why He said that we would be hated. We do indeed see, or should see, all things as black or white. Either it is in total agreement with The Word of God or it is error and from the father of lies. No gray areas, as the world would want us to have and is strongly pushing the Church to have.
Our intense jealous love for The Word of God, will be and has been the reason for the persecution of the Saints.
Though our intentions may be toward kindness and mercy and sympathy, if we go beyond what is written, we have gone beyond The Word of God, Who is the judge of the whole earth. And if in our intentions toward kindness and mercy and sympathy, we go beyond what is written, then our love for The Word of God is lacking.
Love must be toward The Word of God first, then His Love will perfect our love to be as His - which contains His Holiness [which it and with it's demands] at the same time --- if we stray from The Word of God, we make our love more perfect than His.
Jeremiah, just for one, is a good example of that Love-Jealousy we must have for His Word.
God said, "Ye must be born-again." and "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other Name under Heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."


1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


By comparison, we could study the lives of William Carey, Amy Carmichael, Huldah and Mark Buntain, GFA, WMP and the thousands of other unsung heroes of The Faith, who have and are tirelessly labor in India and elsewhere - preaching Christ and Him crucified.
"Would feeding the hungry or ministering physical help to the sick, without giving them The Way of Salvation, find the recipients of our 'help' any better off in Hell?"

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Corey... by her own admission and by her own words... she was not saved. And that is why she did not feel the presence of God. That is the point you are missing.

Her faith was not in Christ alone. It was in Christ, plus Mary. Christ, plus the Catholic Church. Christ, plus her works. Christ, plus the eucerist.... etc.

If our faith is not in Christ alone, we are lost.

Krispy

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KrispyKrittr said,

Corey... by her own admission and by her own words... she was not saved. And that is why she did not feel the presence of God. That is the point you are missing.

Her faith was not in Christ alone. It was in Christ, plus Mary. Christ, plus the Catholic Church. Christ, plus her works. Christ, plus the eucerist.... etc.

If our faith is not in Christ alone, we are lost.

And you don't do the same? Christ, plus the evangelical church? Christ, plus the conventions, retreats, and summer camps? Christ, plus the evangelical books? Christ, plus the baptism by immersion? Christ, plus x-theologians' eschatological interpretation of pre- mid- post-trib, etc...?

Greater minds than ours have wrestled with the "perfect" interpretation and implementation of religious things. And just consider what a mess all these opinions have made of it (over eighty thousand denominations recorded in the States alone).

Our Lord gave us a New Commandment: to love one another as we love ourselves. [i]Teresa fulfilled this commandment to love.[/i] Need we drag the name of a dead woman as charitable and loving as her through the mud because she was a catholic?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; [i]but he that doeth[/i] the will of my Father which is in heaven." (MATT 7:21)

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." (MAR 9:38-40)

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philologos

I saw this today in Christianity Today. Perhaps someone already posted the URL and I missed it?

[url=http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/augustweb-only/135-43.0.html]"There is no God in me".[/url]

and

[url=http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html]Mother Theresa's crisis of faith.[/url]

We have discussed catholic mysticism here before, once or twice. But Catholica Mysticism has, as I see it, no connection at all to suffering for Christ or Christ's disciplining of the 'son'. It is part of a belief that sins can be purged by suffering and that a soul can merge trascendentally with God. This is not repentance and it is not biblical union with God. It is essentially eastern transcendental philosophy.

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Santana

I don't believe she trusted in Christ alone...which is kind of EVERYTHING!!

BUT, you know what, she is still a great example of surrendering it all for the poor, blind, lame, hungry, etc. Just like Mormons are a great example of going out 2 x 2's and just like Jehovas Witness' are great examples of a people who know there "bible" from cover to cover.

I'm sure you know what I'm saying but...Mother Teresa was a great example. Nothing less, nothing more.

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Santana said,

I don't believe she trusted in Christ alone...which is kind of EVERYTHING!!

BUT, you know what, she is still a great example of surrendering it all for the poor, blind, lame, hungry, etc. Just like Mormons are a great example of going out 2 x 2's and just like Jehovas Witness' are great examples of a people who know there "bible" from cover to cover.

I'm sure you know what I'm saying but...Mother Teresa was a great example. Nothing less, nothing more.

She proved her faith by her works.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and [i]I will shew thee my faith [b]by my works[/b][/i]... But wilt thou know, O vain man, that [i]faith without works is dead[/i]...? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so [i]faith without works is dead[/i] also." (JAM 2:18-26)

You who judge Teresa, do you actually [i]do[/i] the Lord's will, or just go to church and the prayer meeting?

Read the following scripture carefully to understand who will enter the Kingdom and who is damned to the lake of fire:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (MATT 7:21)

"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [i]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:[/i] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [i]And the King shall answer and say unto them, [b]Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.[/b][/i] [i]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:[/i] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? [i]Then shall he answer them, saying, [b]Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.[/b] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.[/i]" (MATT 25:33-46)

*edit* I am in no way saying that I am a faithful servant, either. I'm as convicted as any of you by our Lord's message.

I
InTheLight

Just reading a few of the outakes of her diary entries I was reminded of the book [url=http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/works2.ix.html]The Life and Diary of David Brainerd[/url] which was published by Jonathan Edwards. It is an amazing read but he suffered from much despondency. Here is a quote that Jonathan Edwards wrote in the preface to the book...
There is one thing in Mr. Brainerd, easily discernible by the following account of his life, which may be called an imperfection in him, which though not properly an imperfection of a moral nature, yet may possibly be made an objection against the extraordinary appearances of religion and devotion in him, by such as seek for objections against every thing that can be produced in favour of true vital religion; and that is, that he was, by his constitution and natural temper, so prone to melancholy and dejection of spirit. There are some who think that all serious strict religion is a melancholy thing, and that what is called christian experience, is little else besides melancholy vapours disturbing the brain, and exciting enthusiastic imaginations. But that Mr. Brainerd’s temper or constitution inclined him to despondency, is no just ground to suspect his extraordinary devotion to be only the fruit of a warm imagination. I doubt not but that all who have well observed mankind, will readily grant, that not all who by their natural constitution or temper are most disposed to dejection, are the most susceptive of lively and strong impressions on their imagination, or the most subject to those vehement affections, which are the fruits of such impressions. But they must well know, that many who are of a very gay and sanguine natural temper are vastly more so; and if their affections are turned into a religious channel, are much more exposed to enthusiasm, than many of the former. As to Mr. Brainerd in particular, notwithstanding his inclination to despondency, he was evidently one of those who usually are the furthest from a teeming imagination; being of a penetrating genius, of clear thought, of close reasoning, and a very exact judgment; as all know, who knew him. As he had a great insight into human nature, and was very discerning and judicious in general; so he excelled in his judgment and knowledge in divinity, but especially in things appertaining to inward experimental religion. He most accurately distinguished between real, solid piety, and enthusiasm; between those affections that are rational and scriptural having their foundation in light and judgment and those that are founded in whimsical conceits, strong impressions on the imagination, and vehement emotions of the animal spirits. He was exceedingly sensible of men’s exposedness to these things; how much they had prevailed, and what multitudes had been deceived by them; of their pernicious consequences, and the fearful mischief they had done in the christian world. He greatly abhorred such a religion, and was abundant in bearing testimony against it, living and dying; and was quick to discern when any thing of that nature arose, though in its first buddings, and appearing under the most fair and plausible disguises. He had a talent for describing the various workings of this imaginary, enthusiastic religion evincing its falseness and vanity, and demonstrating the great difference between this and true spiritual devotion which I scarcely ever knew equalled in any person.

In Christ,

Ron

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tjservant

You who judge Teresa

The Word judges her. She denied the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. I don’t know what took place on her death bed. Nobody on Earth knows if she is in Heaven or not. But while she was living she denied Jesus Christ’s sufficiency to save her. She repeatedly said with her voice and pen that Jesus was not enough to save her. Jesus, the Word, said otherwise.

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PreachParsly

And you don't do the same? Christ, plus the evangelical church? Christ, plus the conventions, retreats, and summer camps? Christ, plus the evangelical books? Christ, plus the baptism by immersion? Christ, plus x-theologians' eschatological interpretation of pre- mid- post-trib, etc...?

To be honest, I almost laughed when I read this because I've heard Krispy come against almost everything in one way or another that you asked him if he did.

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sermonindex

You who judge Teresa, do you actually do the Lord's will, or just go to church and the prayer meeting?

I go to the church in the back alleys of Detroit with the prostitutes, addicts and bangers that we feed, minister to and love. Does that make me qualified to judge the fruit of someone who is blatantly an idolater as Paul commands the Corinthians to do?

Brother Corey, what are you trying to say and do here?

1) Stick up for an idolater simply because she was full of "good works" (or filthy rags as God calls them)

or

2) Not let the lukewarm protestant pew warmers get away with calling out an idolatrous women who spent more time and energy then them doing the things that Jesus told His followers to do.

If it is the latter, I can agree with you.

In Christ - Jim

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jimdied2sin asked

Brother Corey, what are you trying to say and do here?

1) Stick up for an idolater simply because she was full of "good works" (or filthy rags as God calls them)

or

2) Not let the lukewarm protestant pew warmers get away with calling out an idolatrous women who spent more time and energy then them doing the things that Jesus told His followers to do.

If it is the latter, I can agree with you.

In Christ - Jim

1) Yes, I am sticking up for a charitable woman who did [i]what Jesus asked her to do[/i] (both audibly and scripturally). For some strange reason, I reacted negatively when professing Christians attacked the character and reputation of this charitable catholic who is unable to defend herself and her motives - because she's dead and all.

2) No, I am saying that some Catholics follow Christ's imperatives better than most so-called evangelical "servant-leaders".

I find it absolutely fascinating that I quote scripture upon scripture citing Christ's admonition that those who call on His name, but refuse to do His commands, will be cast into the lake of fire... but those who do His commands and are unsure of their salvation He calls forth as brethren...

And I quote James, who points out that faith without works is dead...

And some folks on this thread continue to belittle this dead woman who gave her entire life to feed, comfort, heal, and love the forsaken... to please her Lord... even during a crises of faith... even if she prayed to Mary...

Our Lord says those who feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, relieve one another's debts, and comfort the abandoned - are His brethren.

He says those who don't, aren't.

When His elect are called forth, many or all of them exclaim, "Me? When did I do what you asked?"

And then the other group will come forward eagerly to recieve their just reward for their megachurches, bestsellers, and faith-only and no-works doctrines of men...

And they'll be cast out into outer darkness.

Your problem's not with Teresa, or even with me. Your problem's with Jesus. Take it up with Him.

I go to the church in the back alleys of Detroit with the prostitutes, addicts and bangers that we feed, minister to and love.

Your left hand now knows what your right hand is doing.

You have your reward.

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philologos

I have no interest in judging Theresa's relationship with God, but I am required to judge what men and women say and do. It is in her example that she is most dangerous.

[color=0033FF] Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:28-29 NKJV)[/color]

Earlier in John 3 Christ defined what he meant by 'believing'...

[color=0033FF]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:14-15 NKJV)[/color]

By 'believing' he meant the 'all my eggs in one basket' total reliance upon a person who, like Moses' serpent, hung in full view. Only those who put all their trust in God's provision for sin-sickness are 'believers' in the NT sense.

The Jews of his day were eager to do 'the works of God' but the necessary first 'work' is to rely totally upon Jesus Christ. Where this is missing everything else is 'dead works'.

[color=0033FF]For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:2-4 NKJV)[/color]

We bear witness to the zeal of many but when they do not know, experimentally, God's provision of His own righteousness in Chrsit they will be inevitably striving to establish their own righteousness.

The doing of good works is not evidence of right relationship with God.

[color=0033FF] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV)[/color]

Apparently it is possible to have done 'wonders' in His name and yet never to have known him. Again, I am not seeking to judge Theresa's 'salvation' I am just saying that without right relationship no amount of 'good works' can merit God's approval.

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philiogos said,

Apparently it is possible to have done 'wonders' in His name and yet never to have known him. Again, I am not seeking to judge Theresa's 'salvation' I am just saying that without right relationship no amount of 'good works' can merit God's approval.

Read the following verses very carefully:

"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (MATT 25:33-46)

God doesn't "approve" of feeding the hungry, befriending a stranger, clothing the naked? Healing the sick and visiting the prisoners has no "merit" in God's eyes?

Compare this with your quote from Matthew 7:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, [i]but he who [b]does[/b] the will of My Father in heaven.[/i] Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV)

"Prophesied", "cast out demons", "done many wonders"...

He's not talking about little old catholic charity workers who feed the hungry and heal lepers. He's talking about the "signs and wonders" "generation of vipers". You know, the ones who exhibit all the "gifts of the spirit" but don't exhibit the fruit. The ones who parade around the globe in a guise of false humility, surfing the church system, "networking" with brethren, selling books, marketing Jesus, prophesying prosperity or catastrophe, living on the backs of widows...

The ones who scare people out of doing charity work because it's "works-based faith", phariseeism, or some other damnable heresy...

[i]Just believe, ask Jesus to come into your heart, come to church on Sunday and to the prayer meetings, tithe your ten percent to your "local body", despise catholics, anglicans, and that other church across the street that don't believe as we do (who are damned forever to hell, poor souls), hate the arabs, love the jews and keep on voting for "you know who".

And for heaven's sake, stop trying to please the Lord so much! The work was finished on the Cross! You don't want to become a modern-day Pharisee by trying to please your Lord, now do you?

That's right. You're saved. Go back to sleep.[/i]

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead...? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (JAM 2:18-26)

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God doesn't "approve" of feeding the hungry, befriending a stranger, clothing the naked? Healing the sick and visiting the prisoners has no "merit" in God's eyes?

God certainly does approve of those things, and Christians ought to be doing those things. But if you do those things thinking that they will save you, and earn God's mercy and grace, thats the error.

[b]Isa 64:6[/b] [i]But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.[/i]

We can do all these wonderful things, even do them in Jesus' name... but if at the end of the day we refuse Biblical salvation, it is all for nothing.

Thats basic Christianity 101.

I'm not judging Mother Teresa when I say I dont believe she was saved. I am looking at her own words, what she said her faith was in... and unfortunately her faith was not Biblical salvation. It was a works based salvation, which is no salvation at all.

Her faith was in Mary. Not Christ. Her faith was in the Catholic Church. Not Christ. She believed a lie whilst doing all these great humantarian things.

It's the greatest deception of all time, because now we have evangelical Christians saying "it doesnt matter what she said she believed, she did wonderful works for God... so she was saved."

No, she wasnt, not by her own admission.

And how tragic that is. How sad.

Corey, you can disagree with me if you want to, but you'd be kicking agaisnt the pricks, as it were. (Acts 9:5) This is the clear teachings of scripture.

Krispy

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philologos

God doesn't "approve" of feeding the hungry, befriending a stranger, clothing the naked? Healing the sick and visiting the prisoners has no "merit" in God's eyes?

Did somebody say this? I must have missed it. It is a parody of what has been stated earlier. There is a most solemn injuction found in Christ's word to his church in Ephesus.

[color=0033FF]“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. (Revelation 2:2-5 NKJV)[/color]

That is to say 'none of those good things' are sufficient proof that man or woman is 'right with God'. They are commended here but with a proviso. Similarly I personally commend Theresa's charitable work in Calcutta; I have visited the area where she worked with her colleagues. But I don't confuse this which essential Christianity which is right relationship with God through the death of His Son and the gift of His Spirit.

There is a continuous theme in Catholic mysticism that if I suffer enough God will accept me. This is 'anti-Christ'. The gospel says that God will accept me because Christ 'suffered enough'. What kind of 'union' is that in which one part feels no consciousness of the other and enjoys no fellowship but keeps on working because someone has commanded it. That might describe a slave never a bride.

If it were not adding folly to folly many here could produce their lists of charitable work and givenness to the saint and sinner alike, but that is not the issue. The one with the biggest pile doesn't win the prize. The issue, to me, is 'is this normal Christianity and the stuff of example'?

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There is a continuous theme in Catholic mysticism that if I suffer enough God will accept me.

This deception is taken to the most extreme in parts of the Philipines at Easter. What takes place there by Catholics is nothing short of sick.

Krispy

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Your problem's not with Teresa, or even with me. Your problem's with Jesus. Take it up with Him.

Corey, please save your time and stop addressing this kind of nonsensical statement towards me. I am not impressed with your maverick attitude. I have a problem with idolaters being lifted up as Saints, I am commanded this in 1 Corinthians 5..

Why do you have such a hostile and maverick attitude towards the brethren here on SI, even those who DO do the things that Jesus commands. Amazing that you can take an honest set of questions and turn them into a personal attack on me. Of course we can't talk about anything that we do for the Lords glory to show you where we are coming from or you'll throw out more nonsense such as


Your left hand now knows what your right hand is doing.

You have your reward.

Corey, may God grant your heart that is bearing its fruit here repentance as you write such things as this. You can imply that I am a pharisee simply because I am trying to reason with you, but my reward is serving my King, the Jesus of the Bible who sits at the right hand of God and has said that all idolaters will burn in hell (like Mother Theresa if she didnt repent)

So yes I do have my reward, I am allowed to serve Jesus! I write very little about our ministry here in Detroit for the reason of not self promoting. I was simply making a point that you have everyone here "so figured out" and use the idea that we are NOT doing what Christ commanded as an enabeler to disregard everything that is being said to you. I hope you will hear this last statement.

-Jim

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Why do you have such a hostile and maverick attitude towards the brethren here on SI, even those who DO do the things that Jesus commands.

I have to agree with Jim on this... I get attacked as being a pharisee, or being judgemental all the time. I get accused of being all words and not action sometimes. But there isnt a single person on this site who really has any idea the things I do in ministry, and I dare say that is true for most serious believers who are members of this SI family.

We must be careful.

Krispy

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Compton

If a great woman like her felt herself distant from the Lord, then what hope do any of us have of finding a refuge in God from our works?


A refuge from works? A vacation? Is this what our Lord died for?

Perhaps my thought there was poorly written. I certainly didn't mean that God is a refuge from works! I meant to say that our works are not a refuge from God's condemnation on the natural man.

I stressed repeatedly that my concern wasn't so much with Theresa, but with how to best view works in relationship to peace with God. Please don't waste emotional energy by implying that this is an anti-work creedo...it is simply an "anti-I'm good enough by my works"-creedo.

Philologos mentioned not adding folly to folly...certainly no one here is going to list their charitable deeds here in this thread. Any inventory report of our good works would be distasteful and abhorrent. Indeed, the essence of my own testimony, is that I was building just such a list, when the realization of my own corrupt and sinful nature was made real to me. It is from this context, that I view works...not as a bad thing but as a good but imperfect thing in comparison to the perfect good of the Gospel.

Once I realized how completely condemned I stood with the Lord, I was closer to the Kingdom then I had been in my entire previous religous life of doing good things. From there I could recieve what John 3 describes...it is in this context and only in this context that I am discussing works in relationship to obtaining peace with God.

Yes there is a type of peace that the Christian can have. As you correctly argued, you will not have peace with the world, but you can, and indeed must make peace with God. It was Theresa's poignant comments revealing her specific lack of peace with God that drew my attention. These quotes did not describe her struggle with the world or with sin...but with being unable to rest in faith or with being accepted by the Lord.

I do not judge her or impugn her life's work for this. In fact, I am perhaps too sympathetic to her melancholy confessions. It was with sympathy, even indentification, and not judgement, that I marveled, "If a great woman like her felt herself distant from the Lord, then what hope do any of us have?"

My question was rhetorical, because I believe the answer is unilaterially and exclusively Jesus.

I also feel much of your controversy with the doctrine of justification by faith is a reactionary critique to that broad swath of the Church which has become little more then a middle class sub-culture of America. But the remedy to that sorry lampoon of Christianity is not to replace it with your own harsh cartoon of all evangelicals as wealthy profiteering capitalists who abuse the poor all the while 'professing' cheap faith.

Consider there may be more of the world in your cartooning critique then you might first suspect. Just as the Gospel is not orientated towards the right-wing preoccupation with wealth building, it is also not orientated towards the left-wing preoccupation with class struggle. These are man's concerns which have been allowed to create divison within the Church.

MC

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Krispy said

We can do all these wonderful things, even do them in Jesus' name... but if at the end of the day we refuse Biblical salvation, it is all for nothing.

Thats basic Christianity 101.

Fortunately, I didn't take Churchianity 101.

I took Scripture 101 by correspondence. Great course. Low, low textbook fees and taught by the best Professor in the Universe.

"For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." (MARK 9:41)

This is the clear teachings of scripture.

I see. So the scripture you folks cite in defense of the sola fide position is more "clear" than my citations in defense of works as necessary evidence of salvation: Matthew 25, James 2 and the one above.

Corey, you can disagree with me if you want to, but you'd be kicking agaisnt the pricks, as it were. (Acts 9:5)

You're probably right. But there always was more than one type of prick.

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God doesn't "approve" of feeding the hungry, befriending a stranger, clothing the naked? Healing the sick and visiting the prisoners has no "merit" in God's eyes?

Did somebody say this? I must have missed it.

"...I am not seeking to judge Theresa's 'salvation' I am just saying that without right relationship no amount of 'good works' can merit God's approval..."

You said it.

And in Matthew 25 Jesus refutes your "faith-only" argument and shows that our good works are witnesses of our righteousness on the great day of judgement.

There is a continuous theme in Catholic mysticism that if I suffer enough God will accept me. This is 'anti-Christ'. The gospel says that God will accept me because Christ 'suffered enough'.

Lazarus the beggar was caught up to heaven... and the rich man went to hell... The one didn't go to heaven because he believed on Jesus, but because he suffered. The other didn't go to hell because he denied Jesus, he went because he lived in comforts. The one had the short end of the stick during life and was blessed in the hereafter. The other had the good things in life and was damned.

Antichrist lives in peace and comfort. Christ lives in adveristy and poverty.

What kind of 'union' is that in which one part feels no consciousness of the other and enjoys no fellowship but keeps on working because someone has commanded it. That might describe a slave never a bride.

This kind of relationship is akin to a boss' relationship with his best employee who, like I said before on this thread, does four times the work of everyone else in half the time. He doesn't micromanage the employee that's doing far better than everyone else... he leaves that one alone to excel on their own and turns to the slower workers who need his supervision.

You're either a slave to God or you're a slave to the flesh, the world, and the devil. You're not your own man.

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jimdiedtosin said

Corey, may God grant your heart that is bearing its fruit here repentance as you write such things as this. You can imply that I am a pharisee simply because I am trying to reason with you, but my reward is serving my King, the Jesus of the Bible who sits at the right hand of God and has said that all idolaters will burn in hell (like Mother Theresa if she didnt repent)

May God also grant you and those who would have a poor old charitable believer cast into hell for her "works-based" faith.

I don't recognize Jesus in any of your statements.

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PaulWest

"...I am not seeking to judge Theresa's 'salvation' I am just saying that without right relationship no amount of 'good works' can merit God's approval..."
You said it.
And in Matthew 25 Jesus refutes your "faith-only" argument

Corey, brother, we should show more respect to our elder here in the forum. Such brazen and public insinuations are not becoming. Clothing ourselves with humility is in order, and praying for wisdom before we post hasty rebuttals is what I would advise. I would save you potential embarassment. Prayerfully consider what your elder is saying and be slow to speak. God rewards such meekness and increases wisdom to younger believers who are ready to listen before they contend (especially when they think they are right).

Brother Paul

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PaulWest said

Corey, brother, we should show more respect to our elder here in the forum.

Brother, don't make me laugh. Who amongst you is my elder? Who amongst you has so much as pmed me for my phone number so you could find out a little more about me, let alone mentor me, or invite me over for dinner? None. You're not my elders. And I'm glad for it:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (MATT 23:15)

You are the ones who have dishonored an elder... a dead elder, no less.

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"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (MATT 23:15)

Again Corey- Not impressed with your reckless throwing around of scripture to accuse the brethren. I am ready to stand at the judgment seat of Almighty God and answer for my comments on Theresa as they are wrought in truth based on her words, I pray you are ready to answer for the false and baseless accusations made against the brethren here on SI.

If you did a little history research on SI you would know I am just as anti churchianity and right wing evangelicalism as you... but alas you do not really care to know me either, just as you have said about those not PM'ing you.

May God bless you Corey as He leads you into all truth and sanctifies your heart.

In Christ - Jim

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Jim,

I'm not necessarily right-wing nor evangelical - hehe, you've probably noticed I don't like to be "boxed in". I suppose I'm more of a libertarian/Christian Anarchist in that I feel a Man requires limited human authority but absolute devotion to God and His Word.

Though I understand concepts like right wing/left wing, evangelical/orthodox, they seem conspicuously hegelian - as if they were designed to propogate an illusion of "choice" and "freedom". An illusory distraction and false choice much like picking your favorite baseball team or choosing between Pepsi and Coke.

As A.W. Tozer once said in one of his sermons here on SI, 'Resisting the World's Propoganda', "the war that's raging today is the war for your mind... you're not free... advertisers and politicians tell you you are, but you're a slave... you're a slave to the flesh, the world and the devil, or you're a slave to God... it's the same in the evangelical church..."

As to being ready to answer for my words here...

This thread has torn me up inside for a week (really, upset). I won't go on about why or how because I think by now I've made my point clear.

If the Sun were to go black today and the world went up in flames, I believe I would be cowering behind all the crowds standing before His throne...

...for far worse things I've done than defend a little old catholic nun.

Jim, if you feel comfortable pming me your phone number, I'd be more than happy to fellowship sometime.

P
philologos

Quote:
Quote:
God doesn't "approve" of feeding the hungry, befriending a stranger, clothing the naked? Healing the sick and visiting the prisoners has no "merit" in God's eyes?


Did somebody say this? I must have missed it.


"...I am not seeking to judge Theresa's 'salvation' I am just saying that without right relationship no amount of 'good works' can merit God's approval..."

You said it.


Where in the above quote do I say that "God doesn't approve of feeding the hungry"?

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