Menu

Could a born again Christian Commit Suicide?

M
Mangan

Im throwing out this question in the forum.

More and more Ive discovered that more and more preachers counts suicide just as a sin like any other and probably connected to a mental disorder and sickness. This has lead to the conclusion that it is possible for a regenerated christian to commit such an act and still reach the kingdom of God.

Which one of these assertions do you believe to be accurate

i. If suicide is the result of sickness then it is comparable with other deadly deceases (such as Cancer) and should not exclude anyone from heaven.

ii. Suicide is a deadly sin commited by a person who clearly does not have the Spirit of God indwellt (i.e. not a real christian) therefore he or she is not allowed to enter into the kingdom of God.

What's your opinion?

Magnus

:-)

J
jordanamo

I'll leave the judging up to God. Suicide is a hugely complex issue. I do not believe it would stop you from going to heaven, even though to most people it is in some sense the ultimate sin, as you sin while you die. But I believe God is merciful and can forgive those who do such things in rash behavior.

To answer your initial question though, can a born-again Christian commit suicide? Yes. As much as a born-again Christian can commit homicide, which is only misdirected suicide.

Jordan

M
Mangan

Thanks for your opinion Jordan!

Yes it seems plausible. However would a born again Christian murder anyone? Or is it rather so that if a person once have murdered someone it must have been before they were saved and regenerated?

I think this question of Christian Suicide is a crucial question for the Church of Jesus Christ today, given the bible references such as Judas and Saul (clearly damned people who commited Suicide; maybe even Simpson could be counted to them, depending how you interpet Judges).

My own perspective is that the bible or my inner witness give me no right as a preacher to teach or imply that a Christian can commit suicide and be hoping for glory.

Saint Augustine and the old views in this matter stated the eternal damnation concerning suicide.

However it is God's decision not ours in this matter it would keep us humble.


Sincerely Magnus :-)

M
Mangan

Come on! There must be more people on this forum that has an opinion in this matter.

The suicide-rate is rising amongst the teens.

Magnus :-o

S
ssweber

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

If you have been forgiven of your past sin, cleansed from all unrighteousness, and love the light, how could you commit suicide?

M
Mangan

Yes brother! that's what I thought too. But still there are a lot of good preachers such as Charles Stanley who teaches that a Christian can commit suicide and still enter into heaven. The only thing such a person loses is not the eternal life but the reward for his or her Christian life.

Im not too sure that the teaching mention above is scriptural true.

Magnus ;-)

S
sermonindex

I knew someone who committed suicide. She was a member of an intercessors' group and I have no doubt she was born again.

Maybe because of the fact that the Biblical examples of those who committed suicide (Ahithophel, David's counsellor, and of course Judas)were in rebellion against God, we have assumed that killing oneself is the sin of the person who does it. And because it is a terrible thing to do we also assume that such a person can't possibly go to heaven.

But in the case of our friend God gave a word of comfort. I can't find a copy of it now, but the gist of it was that she had actually been [u]"murdered"[/u]! Basically she didn't kill herself, but demonic powers [i]drove[/i] her to it, which isn't the same thing.

Of course, she may have had some hidden sin in her life, which gave an opening, but she was a victim, not a perpetrator. Remember that Satan uses any opening, however small, to torment us. Often the suffering that results is hugely out of proportion to the sin. Maybe this lady had not even done anything wrong - had perhaps been abused as a child, or inherited the depressive tendency and hadn't yet come to complete deliverance in the Lord. Or perhaps a close relative was into the occult or something similar, (freemasonary for example - the man involved in this pronounces, in effect, a curse on his family)

Another friend came from a background where there was serious occult involvement. She was also sexually abused as a child. She said that she once tried to jump out of a moving car. Except that [i]she[/i] didn't try to do that at all! She said that her body moved of its own accord, and [i][u]she could do nothing to stop it[/u][/i]. She had had no thoughts of suicide and was terrified at what was happening. Only the quick reactions of her then boyfriend, who was driving, saved her.

Let's not condemn just because our traditions say that suicide is a terrible sin. Should we be guilty of bringing further grief on a bereaved family already in shock! Or condemnation on a failed suicide who is already unutterably crushed and tormented by the Enemy?

Jeannette

J
jordanamo

Mangan: Yes it seems plausible. However would a born again Christian murder anyone? Or is it rather so that if a person once have murdered someone it must have been before they were saved and regenerated?

This is a matter of free will. If you believe one who is born again by the Spirit cannot murder themselves or another, because God will not allow it no matter what, and that if they do such things they cannot in anyway be saved, then that is fine, but I disagree entirely and wholly. My basis? We are not in our glorified bodies, and even though we have the Spirit, we still have the flesh. It can sin. It can do horrific things. If we let it.

Little Gift: But in the case of our friend God gave a word of comfort. I can't find a copy of it now, but the gist of it was that she had actually been "murdered"! Basically she didn't kill herself, but demonic powers drove her to it, which isn't the same thing.
I am a bit skeptical of "demonic powers" murdering her. If she had the Spirit, the demonic forces have no authority over her. The Devil can't touch a Christian unless God would allow it.

LittleGift: Let's not condemn just because our traditions say that suicide is a terrible sin. Should we be guilty of bringing further grief on a bereaved family already in shock! Or condemnation on a failed suicide who is already unutterably crushed and tormented by the Enemy?

Yes, if God's capable of forgiving me in my sins, can he not be capable of forgiving someone who commits suicide, especially when they have already been saved? What if I happened to die in the middle of a sin... would that mean I go to Hell? Of course not. So, what right do we have to declare someone is going to Hell for committing suicide? None at all.

To be fair, suicide is reprehensible. "[It] is a lack of faith which takes no account of the living God," said Dietrich Bonhoeffer (Ethics, SCM Press, p.143). It intervenes in the plan of God and ends life when God has said No. But it can be forgiven, just as any other sin, even though it may appear to our minds to be the "unforgivable" sin.

Jordan

M
Mangan

Thanks Jordan for your opinion!

I do not agree with you... Suicide is a process of spiritual deterioration and not just a case of sinning which we all do but a continuous state of sinning.

Read 1 John about the two statements of sin.
a. If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 Jn 1:8)
b. Noone who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God (1 Jn 3:9-10).
c. [...] you know that no murderer has eternal life in him (1 Jn 3:15).

Magnus ;-)

M
Mangan

I have the deepest respect for your view, Jeannette! I have also the deepest respect for someone who lost a friend, relative or family member aswell. This is an intricate matter, no doubt about it!

Look at my answer to Jordan for details about some of my views about the sin of Suicide.

As Christians we should not back off from stating the truth if we believe it strongly to be true.

Saint Augustine said in his book about the Free Will: that a person would not commit suicide if he/she knew it would lead to eternal damnation in hell. Rather every person who commits such an act thinks that God would show him or her mercy and that they enter into a state that is a relief from the pains and anguish on earth.

You mentioned about demonic powers and enslavement of will. I do agree, that this reality exists. But!!! A person that is born anew or regenterated - with the mind of Christ and the fruits of the Spirit would'nt commit suicide and would'nt open him- or herself to such a demonic influence. However a neglected prayer life and continuous sinnig can extinguish the Holy Spirit and make place for evil spirits. The example of Saul in the OT is frightening; here is man who were filled by the Holy Spirit and prophesied but died of suicide (citing Leonard Ravenhill) after a sinful rebellion against God.

Magnus
:-D

S
sermonindex

We all will live forever somewhere.
Matt 25:45-46
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Since it is a known fact 100% percent of all people will face physical death, unless Jesus comes back beforehand. We should all ask ourselves this question. Have we accepted HIS free gift to pay our sin debt in full and do we have HIS HOLY SPIRIT living within our mortal bodies? Have we offered our bodies a living sacrifice?
Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV


If everyone in the world was really aware of this answer, they would running to Jesus and say Lord what must I do to be saved. Why are they not doing that? Answer: They are deceived by the devil. We must tell them!!!! Who will go? Should we be concerned with hurting their feelings or in the manner that we tell them the truth? Do we need to politically correct in how we tell them the truth? Does it matter if they get their feelings hurt, or does it but only matter that they hear the truth, confess, repent and believe that they may have eternal life with HIM and avoid the eternal punishment in hell, that we all deserve and will have without Christ?
Mark 8:38
38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
NKJV


S
sermonindex

I wonder if those who condemn the person who commits suicide have ever themselves been in such a condition that they wished to die, prayed to die, or were even tempted to kill themselves?

Elijah was.

Jeremiah was.

I was too, on one occasion.

Despair is a terrible thing.

Have you ever suffered from clinical depression? Have you ever had to face utter failure and ruin? Have you ever been so grief stricken at the death of a loved one that you were tempted to want to follow them?

I would suggest that [u]no-one[/u] has a right to pronounce on this until they have experienced something of that temptation and know its power - even for a Christian.

I don't know why the Lord allowed the lady I mentioned to commit suicide, (perhaps to spare her any more torment?) but I do hope and expect her to be in heaven - made fully whole. Not because I believe suicide isn't sin - it is- but becasue I believe that's what the Lord showed us.

Yes, sin is sin, but seeing suicide as one of the worst possible sins (unforgivable because the person dies and its "too late") is only man's tradition. [u][i]God[/i][/u] doesn't say that. And how can we know if a person who commits suicide doesn't repent in their last moments?

Can anyone say that what David did - murdering his friend to cover up his adultery with his wife - was a lesser sin than if someone gives in to the temptation to despair, to escape by any means from unbearable suffering?!!! David was driven by lust and selfishness, and probably by laziness, because he should have gone to war with his army, not lazing about on the roof of his palace!

Yet David was forgiven.

in Him

Jeannette

D
davym

I wonder if those who condemn the person who commits suicide have ever themselves been in such a condition that they wished to die, prayed to die, or were even tempted to kill themselves?

Excellent point Jeannette.

Mental illness is a terrible thing and seems to have exploded in the last 30 years. We now have a assortment of prescription drugs, but yet the problem continues to grow.

Born again Christians are clearly not immune and I believe the devil uses it to trip up Saints. Remember it's spiritual warfare and if we take a stand for Christ we can expect hardship and opposition. (something prosperity preachers seem to miss when studying their Bibles).

I believe the devil can attack our minds if we let him. N.B. I don't believe he can get inside our minds, but he knows the weaknesses in the human system and can make mental illness much worse for us. We have to be careful what we put into our minds e.g. films we watch, web sites we visit. We must also be desperately careful what thoughts we indulge. It's all ammunition for the devil.

If we face emotional trauma e.g bereavement, illness etc we need to lean on the Lord and try not to take our eyes off Him. I imagine this could be extremely difficult given certain circumstances e.g. I know of someone who had throat cancer and couldn't swallow properly and ended up taking their own life. I don't know whether they were saved, but it made me wonder how I would cope with that situation.

A very difficult area.

2 Timothy 1:7 (KJV)
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a [b]sound mind[/b].

1 John 4:4 (KJV)
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Romans 8:35-39 (KJV)
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither [b]death[/b] , nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

S
sermonindex

For those who read my post and interpreted that I said in the post, if a person did commit suicide whether they would or would not go to heaven, let me say this. My answer is at this point I don't know, and I did not think I implied either one. If anyone interpreted me to say that, maybe it was the Word that was posted that spoke. I never intended to post or imply an answer!!!!!!?????

T
TimmyJoe

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the [b]will[/b] of my father which is in heaven. Matt. 7:21

But he that shall [b]endure[/b] unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matt. 24:13

I do not believe suicide will ever be the will of God for someones life, and it surely is not enduring unto the end.

I hope this answers your question.

with love- Timmyjoe

M
Mangan

Thanks Jeannette, for sharing your views!

However the examples you are giving from the Old Testament are persons who either got strengthend by the Lord (Eliah, Jeremiah and may I add Jonah) or repented before the Lord (David in Psalm 51).

Consider the words of David:
"Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me" (Ps. 51:10-11). The last stanza was just the thing that happened to Saul (i.e. the Holy Spirit was taken away from him) who commited suicide.

Again examples such as Saul and Judas puts a strong case against the thesis that a born again would commit suicide. The examples is also quite frightful aswell.

We have to bear in mind that David repented before he died and finnished his life pleasing to God. No such thing can be said about a person committing suicide!!!

Often depression is connected with a heavy portion of a introversion and selfishness (and Im talking from experience). From a theological perspective selfishness is always idolatry (the Ego enthrones herself and dethrones God).

If Jesus Christ were the true treasure of life, the total meaning and the strength, happiness and so on; I doubt that we would even have this conversation.

i. Jesus says that a good tree bears good fruits
ii. John the Baptist says that "the axe is already at the root of the trees and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire".
iii. Paul says that the fruits of the Spirit is:
love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there are no law.
iv. The author of Ephesians remindes us:
"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption".
v. And Paul again: "Do not put out the Spirits fire".
vi. And lastly Pauls word: No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it (so with Eliah, and Jonah).

I could heap more scriptures but I think Ive made my point. Suicide is no fruit of the Holy Spirit rather the works of the flesh.

Sincerely Magnus
;-)

G
Gwammy

Jeannette -- thank you for your comments! We are very familiar with suicide. My husband and I heard our oldest son scream and then shoot himself to death; this was during the Christmas holidays a number of years ago. Before his death I too thought that suicide was the final fist in God's face. After Chuck's death I saw it in a new light, God's light, I pray. Only God knows what is in the mind and heart of the poor soul who finally gives up. We were told later that our son was trying to get off drugs at the time.

My personal lesson (there were many, actually) was never to judge another. There are some things that are left in God's heart. I latched on to John 13:7: "You do not understand now what I am doing, but you will understand later on."

God bless you, dear Lady!

S
sermonindex


moe_mac wrote:
For those who read my post and interpreted that I said in the post, if a person did commit suicide whether they would or would not go to heaven, let me say this. My answer is at this point I don't know, and I did not think I implied either one. If anyone interpreted me to say that, maybe it was the Word that was posted that spoke. I never intended to post or imply an answer!!!!!!?????
Hi Brother Moe

I don't think you gave the wrong impression - you were simply asking the question to find out what people thought on the subject.

That's what I understood anyway, and hopefully everyone else did too.

in Him

Jeannette

S
sermonindex


TimmyJoe wrote:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the [b]will[/b] of my father which is in heaven. Matt. 7:21

But he that shall [b]endure[/b] unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matt. 24:13

I do not believe suicide will ever be the will of God for someones life, and it surely is not enduring unto the end.

I hope this answers your question.

with love- Timmyjoe

Hi Timmyjoe

It answers the question but it doesn't answer the problem or the need, of those who are left behind when a friend loved one commits suicide - especially if they are a Christian.

I don't think anyone is denying that it's sin to kill oneself, so as far as facts go you have a point. Yet we can all, even the most earnest beiever who is moving in the Spirit, have moments of despair, and find ourselves unable to have the will to endure any longer.

I mentioned Elijah and Jeremiah.

Haven't you ever felt that way?

If not you probably haven't lived, or haven't been a believer, very long!

Blessings

Jeannette

K
kathleen1

I seriously considered committing suicide myself, about 15 years ago. I was the victim of a violent and brutal crime, because I was held hostage and raped and beaten, and came close to being murdered. I tried anti depressants, sleeping pills, nothing could give me peace. I almost went crazy trying to deal with what happened to me. I turned to drugs to cope. I remember staring with trembling hands down the barrel of a 357 thinking my pain and shame would be over if i pulled the trigger. I could hear a voice in my head whispering, do it, do it, do it, over and over. My son was only 14 months old, and came toddling in the room just then, and called out "mommy" and something cracked inside me, and I couldn't do it.

Years later, I met the Lord, got saved and off drugs, and He healed me inside where I hurt so deep. I had a dear friend shoot herself and leave 2 baby boys behind, and another of my closest friends, was murdered while backslid, after being warned by a preacher she'd never met if she did not turn from her ways, they would be burying her soon. She did not listen, and was shot and killed a few months later. I had been praying for her, even with some fasting, and tears, for months. She would not listen.

When my friend died, I could literally hear in my head her voice screaming in torment that she was in hell-I heard this for days. I thought I would go crazy. I cried out to God in desperation for answers and He stopped the screaming in my head, that was probably my own conscience, for I felt like I failed her, and then He spoke to my spirit and said, "If she would not listen to Me why do you think she would listen to you?" I was devastated, but He held me up. I found no hope for her eternity in His Words. Then, I discovered she had been warned by a minister before she died.

So I, too have been touched by this. Many nights I have agonized over where my two friends ended up, but I can't change what the Word says, not even to comfort my own heart, even though her pastor tried his best at her funeral, to preach her right with God and in heaven, I knew he was a liar.


This is a very serious subject, not to be handled harshly. It's not what we think or hope that counts, it is what the Word of God says. The Scripture warns us our adversary, the devil is as a roaring lion walking about seeking whom he may devour. He preys upon the minds of people, and drives them to despair. We can't hope things work out, we have to pray. Rev 21:8 tells us all murderers shall have their part in the lake of fire. People often try to reinterpret the Word to comfort themselves when tragedy strikes. My heart goes out to those who have been personally affected by suicide, especially for those whose children or spouses have done this awful thing. Yes, the devil drove them to it, and the medical profession can slap whatever "disorder label" or "sickness label" they want on it but it doesn't change the fact there is a devil out there who seeks to steal, kill and destroy. Folks, we have been warned in the Word of this, several times. I know some have chemical imbalances, and require treatment. But, the medical profession doesn't want to appear ignorant or too religious, so they slap a medical term on something they don't understand out of pride, with deadly consequences. They prescribe medicine to 'help' people with 'disorders' and then warn them if they have suicidal thoughts to stop taking the medicine? That is lunacy. It's also sorcery, which in the Greek is 'pharmakeia'. (Rev 9:21, 21:8) Look it up..in your Strong's Concordance...(G5331, G5332)And consider the anti depressants, the nerve pills, anything designed by flesh to soothe and calm flesh, and anxiety...how many times does God's Word warn us about turning to the arm of flesh for help? (Jer 17:5)

If Satan gains access via someone in a (mentally) weakened, drug induced state, and drives a man or woman to murder a child, and then they commit suicide, we would think most definitely, they die lost, because they die in rebellion to God, with blood on their hands. If a child is playing with a gun and accidentally shoots themselves, they are innocent, but if a person, regardless of the reason, deliberately takes their own life, they die in rebellion to God, too, with their own blood on their hands, as well. They have destroyed His creation, His child. They listened to the serpent, just as Eve did, and they die in rebellion to God. He cannot change His Word for anyone, regardless of how much we want to comfort them with oh, God is so merciful, yes He is. He also means what He says. The Word of God warns us about the ways and work of the devil and how he uses our own flesh and mind against us, which is why we must have the helmet of salvation and shield of faith and pray a covering of protection over those who don't. I do not mean to sound harsh, I understand all too well the torment that can hound your mind. We can not pray loved ones out of a non-existent Purgatory any more than we can expect them to be saved if they die in rebellion to God. He will not let anyone go out without trying to save them but people sometimes just don't listen or can't believe. Man will stand before Him without excuse. As the person dies, so they rise in the judgment. If they die in Christ, they rise in Him. If they die in rebellion, they will rise in rebellion. This should be all the more reason to pray and ask God to help us see when the thief is moving in and recognize before it's too late what is happening. Any 'preacher' who teaches people can be saved that commit suicide teach heresy. I have heard Charles Stanley make this statement, that they can be saved. He is wrong and the devil loves this because it gives people a false sense of security that suicide is actually a way out of their misery. No, it is only the beginning of true misery. I do not condemn or critcize anyone who commits suicide, or anyone for not wanting them to be lost. This is a sad situation for anyone to have to deal with and the last thing they need is some arrogant person who has never been through this to judge.

D
davym

My personal belief on this is the following-:

Suicide is a sin, but not the unpardonable sin.

If a born again believer commits suicide then that sin is judged at Calvary like all other sin. God put away sin at the Cross. Read Romans.

Suicide is a tragic reality, even for some believers, and they will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ not here on earth by us.

A believer is not expected to commit suicide just like they are not expected to sin.

1 John 2:1 (KJV)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And [b]if[/b] any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Notice that it's an 'if' in this verse and not a 'when'.

I hope it's clear from the above that in no way is suicide condoned in the Bible. It leaves a sad legacy in terms of a representation of Christ in someone's life, but nor is it condemned as a damnable offence.

G
ginnyrose

Kathleen,

I appreciate your testimony...

I have a couple questions for those who give the ones who commit suicide the benefit of the doubt:

1. Repentance is required of sin before one can enter heaven, is it not? So how one repent of suicide?
2. If you have been tempted to commit suicide, why did you not proceed with it? Do you think the 'forces' that prevented you from doing so was exceptional? Do you not think it is common to all mankind?

Having said all this, I come back to this question: when a person dies, even from natural causes, one wonders whether he/she made it to glory. The bottom line is we [likely] do not know for certain. They are now dead and it is all in God's hands and we can do absolutely nothing to change this. So leave it there! We must be so very careful lest we fall into the trap of judging this person: even 'preaching them into heaven' is a form of judging! In my opinion, it is in our best interests to leave it alone: there is other work to be done...

My understanding...or did I muddy the waters some more?

ginnyrose

D
davym

1. Repentance is required of sin before one can enter heaven, is it not? So how one repent of suicide?

Say, for example, a born again believer causes a motor vehicle crash by driving too fast and then dies in the crash along with 5 others in a pile up. That believer doesn't get a chance to repent do they?

and it's not suicide. It's sin and it's dealt with at the Cross! (N.B. This is not a licence to sin. Read Romans)

I think the problem here is that the thought of a Christian committing suicide is so difficult for our natural minds to accept. We tend to want to believe that God would never let it happen. In many cases He steps in to prevent it I'm sure, but He didn't make us robots. We still have free will.

Moreover, there is no Scripture to say it is impossible for a Christian to commit suicide.

S
sermonindex

The GREAT majority of "christians" are not Christians to begin with... even those who profess Christ as Lord. Could it be possible for a true Christian to committ suicide, I will leave that to God, but you would be very hard pressed to ever convince me of such a thing.

In Christ - Jim

S
sermonindex


davym wrote (in two posts):

My personal belief on this is the following-:

Suicide is a sin, but not the unpardonable sin.

If a born again believer commits suicide then that sin is judged at Calvary like all other sin. God put away sin at the Cross. Read Romans.

Suicide is a tragic reality, even for some believers, and they will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ not here on earth by us.

A believer is not expected to commit suicide just like they are not expected to sin.

1 John 2:1 (KJV)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Notice that it's an 'if' in this verse and not a 'when'.

I hope it's clear from the above that in no way is suicide condoned in the Bible. It leaves a sad legacy in terms of a representation of Christ in someone's life, but nor is it condemned as a damnable offence.

Amen to all that, thank you.

1. Repentance is required of sin before one can enter heaven, is it not? So how one repent of suicide?
Say, for example, a born again believer causes a motor vehicle crash by driving too fast and then dies in the crash along with 5 others in a pile up. That believer doesn't get a chance to repent do they?

and it's not suicide. It's sin and it's dealt with at the Cross! (N.B. This is not a licence to sin. Read Romans)

I think the problem here is that the thought of a Christian committing suicide is so difficult for our natural minds to accept. We tend to want to believe that God would never let it happen. In many cases He steps in to prevent it I'm sure, but He didn't make us robots. We still have free will.

Moreover, there is no Scripture to say it is impossible for a Christian to commit suicide.

Amen again! Thank you for this clear analysis of the issue.

To just add a little:

1. Repentance is required of sin before one can enter heaven, is it not? So how one repent of suicide?
Surely when a person dies - saint or sinner - they are at once in the presence of God? That is presumably their last possible opportunity for repentance - which will decide their ultimate fate. If such a person repents, even if they have resisted and rebelled up until then, surely the Lord will forgive and wash away their sins, (including suicide if that was the cause of death)?

My father had been a backslider for many years - if indeed he had ever been truly born again. Two years before he died the Lord spoke to me about him, from Isaiah 57:17-18. Of course this passage refers to Israel in the first instance; but it came powerfully, as when the Lord speaks, and in a passage that I would never have thought of connecting with an individual:

[i][color=000099]17 ¶ For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18 [u]I have seen his ways, and will heal him[/u]: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him [u]and to his mourners[/u]...
[/color][/i]

And when he died, without any sign that he had repented, (he was unconscious) the words ringing in my mind were "[u]I have made him every whit whole[/u]". It was probably the first time I ever had to believe something for the sole reason that God said so, for there was no emotion, no [u]feeling[/u] of reassurance, simply the words in my mind, that I had to make a conscious decision to accept in faith.

What was going on between him and the Lord in those last moments? I have no idea - he was far beyond the possibility of human communication. What goes on between a suicide and the Lord in his or her last moments? Again I have no idea. But [i]dare[/i] we say that there can be no repentance, no salvation, even at that late stage, even if death is what we call instantaneous?

Unless God gives us a definite word or sign we can't be certain one way or the other, but to [b][u]assume[/b][/u] they are lost because they committed suicide is just as wrong as assuming they are lost if they, like my father, showed no definite sign of repentance (of what we perceive as lesser sins) before a natural death occurred.

And in case anyone is thinking that I had persuaded myself of my father's salvation because of the emotional ties, there was one other occasion (only one - in over 20 years of care work, and a number of deaths) when the Lord spoke to me in this way about someone.

I have written elsewhere of a particularly unpleasant old man who caused us a lot of trouble in trying to care for him. It also drove me to pray a lot - for my reaction to his cursing and nastiness wasn't always a Christian one!

I wasn't present when he died, but again the Lord gave me scripture (somewhat out of context!) as assurance that he had repented at the end. It was from Revelation 22:3

[i][color=000099] And there shall be [u]no more curse[/u]: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;[/color][/i]

I believe the Lord washed him clean of the cursing and hatred that had dominated his life for so long, and that he repented, was forgiven, and willingly bowed before the Lord, ("the throne of God shall be in [him]").

Paul said: "I believe God, even as was told me..."

So do I.

Blessings

Jeannette

S
sermonindex

Magnus, This thread title has drawn me in.
Initially signed on to leave comment under the photo of Corrie Ten Boom.
Haven't read all the replies here, but feel that whenever this question is raised - that thoughts of who may be reading these type threads does not enter the mind of some who respond.
If a young Christian has just had their heart broken and they should read from just enough, that suicide is pardonable - would you not think that those who have presented it as such, will be accountable before God for their thoughtless replies ?
If just one person commits suicide because of something that we have written or said somewhere, we will be held accountable.
Whether a relative has done such a thing or someone close to us, we must take due caution here with this issue and not allow the personal to enter in.
We must take our Pro-Life stance out to it's God given limits - from His Perspective and that can only be "come to", by much time in His Word and Prayer.
Jesus is Creator God and our words (or written opinions) do matter in every Spiritual matter, as we do not know who we may be influencing. All the more so when the thought of ending life and any further chances of repentence is being tossed about.
When it comes to the Life of His Creation, our "opinions" may bring judgment upon not only ourselves.

S
sermonindex

A.W. Tozer said in one of his sermons (available on SI) that just like someone's organs or limbs can fail, a man's mind can get sick or malfunction.

In another sermon, he spoke of men that felt so horribly alienated in the world, and so longed to be with the Lord, that the Lord just let them die.

I feel there are far too many variables and possibilities in life, experience, and biological makeup to judge any man or woman who couldn't cope and decided to "stop it".

We've been commanded to love and extend grace and mercy to one another... and to leave judgement up to the Lord.

S
sermonindex


HE_Reigns wrote:
Haven't read all the replies here, but feel that whenever this question is raised - that thoughts of who may be reading these type threads does not enter the mind of some who respond.
If a young Christian has just had their heart broken and they should read from just enough, that suicide is pardonable - would you not think that those who have presented it as such, will be accountable before God for their thoughtless replies ?
If just one person commits suicide because of something that we have written or said somewhere, we will be held accountable.
My friend, I think you should go back and read the whole thread carefully before pronouncing judgement. And to consider what is really being said before accusing anyone of giving "thoughtless" replies.

No-one is saying that it’s OK to commit suicide. No-one is denying that someone who does so is in great danger of hell, (as one sister "heard" her friend's anguish there). Suicide, like any other sin, can [u]only[/u] be forgiven if the person repents.

Has it occurred to you that suicide isn't always an instant thing? Death from paracetamol poisoning for example can come several [i]weeks[/i] after the original overdose. I know of one who did repent in those circumstances, but it was too late to save her life. Are you saying that person was still condemned to hell?

Do you really think that a person in utter despair (young or otherwise) could believe from what has been said that it’s OK to commit suicide and it doesn’t matter because they can be forgiven afterwards? Do you know anyone who was actually influenced to commit suicide through this kind of argument? I admit that possibility hadn't occurred to me. But might not your condemnation be just as damaging? For example, to someone who failed to commit suicide? The thought that they can never be forgiven might drive them to finish the job because there's no hope anyway.

Actually your comments have helped me focus more clearly on a key question: [i][u]How long does it take to repent?[/u][/i]

If you want Scripture, think of Luke 22:61f
“And the Lord turned, and looked upon
Peter. And Peter remembered… 62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.”
How long did that look need to be? Just a glance from Jesus can bring about instant repentance.

Whether a relative has done such a thing or someone close to us, we must take due caution here with this issue and not allow the personal to enter in.
I can’t speak for others, but (even in the case of my father), the personal doesn’t really enter into it. I simply used experiences as illustrations.

We must take our Pro-Life stance out to it's God given limits - from His Perspective and that can only be "come to", by much time in His Word and Prayer.
Yes. Are you [u]absolutely[/u] sure you have His perspective? The “God-given limits – especially of His Grace - are beyond human understanding.(Romans 11:33f – the context is the mercy of God)

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The Bible does clearly state that the unrepentant will go to hell. But it also clearly states that the Lord wishes to have mercy, and will have mercy to all who come to Him. To condemn one class of sinner above all others is to suffer from “elder brother” or “James and John” syndrome. (What did Jesus say to James and John when they wanted to condemn, and bring fire down from heaven on those who rejected Him?)

Jesus is Creator God and our words (or written opinions) do matter in every Spiritual matter, as we do not know who we may be influencing. …
That is why your blanket condemnation - as if suicide is the unforgivable sin - is extremely worrying.

When it comes to the Life of His Creation, our "opinions" may bring judgment upon not only ourselves.
So we need to be very careful who we consign to hell – even in theory.

In most cases the answer has to be, in Ezekiel’s words, “Lord, thou knowest”.

In Him

Jeannette


S
sermonindex

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HE_Reigns wrote:Magnus, This thread title has drawn me in.
Initially signed on to leave comment under the photo of Corrie Ten Boom.
Haven't read all the replies here, but feel that whenever this question is raised - that thoughts of who may be reading these type threads does not enter the mind of some who respond.
If a young Christian has just had their heart broken and they should read from just enough, that suicide is pardonable - would you not think that those who have presented it as such, will be accountable before God for their thoughtless replies ?
If just one person commits suicide because of something that we have written or said somewhere, we will be held accountable.
Whether a relative has done such a thing or someone close to us, we must take due caution here with this issue and not allow the personal to enter in.
We must take our Pro-Life stance out to it's God given limits - from His Perspective and that can only be "come to", by much time in His Word and Prayer.
Jesus is Creator God and our words (or written opinions) do matter in every Spiritual matter, as we do not know who we may be influencing. All the more so when the thought of ending life and any further chances of repentance is being tossed about.
When it comes to the Life of His Creation, our "opinions" may bring judgment upon not only ourselves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LittleGift wrote:
My friend, I think you should go back and read the whole thread carefully before pronouncing judgement. And to consider what is really being said before accusing anyone of giving "thoughtless" replies.

Hello Jeannette, the word "thoughtless" goes hand in hand with the unbroken sentence from which you have extracted it. Please read the sentence as a whole because that was the whole purpose of my post. I will repeat it here: [b][u]" If a young Christian has just had their heart broken and they should read from just enough, that suicide is pardonable - would you not think that those who have presented it as such, will be accountable before God[/u] for their thoughtless replies ?[/b]
Can any of us "guarantee" that someone who "murders themselves" will be pardoned ? That is what makes some replies "thoughtless" - because it is not considering just who may be deliberating what and reading what into what is posted on this very sensitive and important topic.
If we are Not Certain that a person will be forgiven after murdering themselves - then we all should teach that "[b][u]murdering oneself is playing Russian Roulette with their Salvation[/u][/b]".
Our First thought should, again, be for those who are weak among us and may only need the slightest persuasion from the enemy of their souls and one human voice to pull the plug on their own lives.
If [b]any[/b] excuse is given whatsoever for this murder, the devil can use that one simple excuse.
Even those quotes by brother Ravenhill. As much as I respect that man, to say that the human mind can get sick, may be just the excuse or ticket a weak soul could use - rather than have the fear that they just may wind up in hell in this game of chance.
Rather than make countless excuses of "mental illness", which in and of itself is a controversial subject and being used by the world to destroy minds further and excuse assisted suicide etc., and that whole slippery slope that we are witnessing in this new generation. Psychology is in the Church and it will kill many.
The only 'safe' thing to tell anyone about suicide is that there is No guarantee that they will be saved and again, it is definitely a playing of Russian Roulette with their eternal souls. That is all I would ever say on this topic, lest we find ourselves quoting the world which is governed by the spirit of death - Not Spiritual Life in Him.
In the rest of your post, you start with "no one is saying that it is alright", but then go on as before, with how it possibly could turn out alright after all.
That is all a weak teen-ager or lonely elderly person or a person in any type of pain would need to hear and rather than seek help, they'll take that chance because a mature Christian mentioned this or that.
This subject is a very hot topic in the world right now and the suicide rate is phenomenal, even in Christian circles, because life is obviously getting more difficult for everyone and as most agree, will continue to get much more difficult. We may all pass through "mental anguish" in the days ahead - so we would do better to stress the 'dangers' of suicide rather than give an inch to speculative - toss a coin - chances of forgiveness once they're dead. By trying to accommodate those who have killed themselves in the past, we are giving license, whether you see that in your posts or not. If someone had a "failed attempt" - there [i]is[/i] time to repent and be immediately forgiven - but those who [i]do[/i] succeed have no guarantees at all.
Satan can say to a young person, "Cut your wrists and repent while you bleed to death - maybe even write out a repentant death letter. I'm sure God will forgive you then." He [i]does[/i] speak like that.
Just your strong defense here is an indication to some, of giving people who are tempted an "out".
If you don't know if they will make it to Heaven or not, one should do all within their verbal power to dissuade and not excuse or soften this act of murder in anyway whatsoever.
Why you would be offended at my words above, I'm not quite sure. I don't follow your reasoning at all.
Thou shall not kill is a commandment that should be taught, because it is the only sin of the 10 that may not give the person time to repent and their repentance may not be truly sincere, but a lie bought or implanted by the enemy into their minds, as mentioned per suggestion above. We should never give so much as a thread of excuse or hopes of a happy ending with murder. Those who have done so already, we cannot judge, but in order to prevent any excuse whatsoever from anyone from using our words for that chance of making it out safely, is what we truly need to consider and avoid. I've read enough of this thread with the eyes of one who would love to depart this world and found many sentences that would give a weak person an excuse to go ahead and do it. The excuses are peppered in enough posts to be troubling and extra-Biblical. More psychology than Bible.
I've consigned no one to hell. If you read either of these posts I've done here, you will see that it is not me that is doing such.

LittleGift wrote:
That is why your blanket condemnation - as if suicide is the unforgivable sin - is extremely worrying.

There's just one out for someone out there.

D
davym

He_Reigns

Your point is a good one and I accept it.

The final thing I'd like to say on this is that, for every believer, a thorough understanding of the book of Romans is essential for our spiritual growth.


God Bless

M
Mangan

Thanks kathleen1 for your powerful opinion!

Quote: "Any 'preacher' who teaches people can be saved that commit suicide teach heresy".

Sincerely Magnus

:-D

B
BenBrockway

I haven't really read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been brought up, but what say you (all) about a Christian who gets a mental disease, gets really deranged, and commits suicide?

Does God spare his eternal soul, or does he get the damnation that some of you claim is begot by all suicidals?

S
sermonindex

BenBrockway asked

I haven't really read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been brought up, but what say you (all) about a Christian who gets a mental disease, gets really deranged, and commits suicide?

Does God spare his eternal soul, or does he get the damnation that some of you claim is begot by all suicidals?

This is along the same lines as "do babies go to heaven or hell if they die before meeting Jesus or they reach the "age of accountability" (whatever that is)"?

Leave it up to God. He knows where every atom in the Universe was, is, and will be... He's more than capable of sorting this out.

S
sermonindex

http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/index.html

I hope by now that you may have read some posts on here. Especially kathleen's.

For some reason demonic influence is being left out of this, by these hypothetical questionings and these modern psychiatric ponderings have won out again over The Word of God. I've written two posts on this previous page, if you care to read them. But having to say this again, for the sake of 'whomever' may read this thread, that these throwing out of hypotheticals may be just what someone would need to hear, to tell them that they have an excuse to murder themselves. My main concern, again, is those who are young or those going through some very difficult time and that is when the enemy comes in like a flood. He is brighter than we are, you know that don't you ? He's Extremely intelligent and knows how to convince a mind of anything that's anti-Biblical. And the new psychiatry has 4 out of 5 of the population having "a mental disorder". Many believe this, once they are told this is so, by an M.D. who will then medicate them. Even some of the least dangerous of medications have quiet joint-action lawsuits against them, for causing those who took these seemingly harmless meds to commit suicide. Once we begin to side with the world and this New psychiatric propaganda, that is being driven by big Pharmacuetical industries, we've bought the lie that will be the very laws that will have Christians put away, because of a "religious-disorder". You push the Bible aside and pick up a modern book on psychiatry and you've damned a whole generation. People who suffer from just anxiety think they are loosing their minds and do think of ending it all. As soon as we throw that "messed up mind" option in there, we're including ourselves, as Jesus said the days ahead will be worse than ever before or ever will be again. Men's hearts failing them for fear. Why make excuses for people to commit the one act they won't have time to repent of ? If the Church would do their job and not throw so many to Psychology, we would have power in the Church and it would be filled with victorious overcomers. We have the means to heal minds and permanently.

I pray over this thread, that no one who is weak will read the nonsense that has been posted here.

When a teen-ager goes through a break-up with their boyfriend or homelife, they come as close to suicide than as ever. Young people do not have the emotional maturity to handle stress and neither do some disabled or abused people. If they read that God will forgive them on the grounds of insanity - they may just take that as coming from Christians that may be older and wiser than they are and go ahead and end their lives. I cannot believe that anyone would even come near, opening that door, because with hypotheticals, you implant a thought in someone's mind and under duress, they may just act on it. May we instead post stories of Christians, such as a Richard Wurmbrand and the like, who was drugged and tortured for 12 years and did not give up hope ? His mind was so far gone, all he could say was "Jesus" and he survived to start The Voice of the Martyrs. Instead of bringing up excuses on every page implying that people can get away with murdering themselves, let us encourage one another with stories of those who overcame more than what is thought to be humanly possible, because the days ahead will be torture for most of us and suicide is Never a Biblical alternative or option. It's not in There.

For the sake of the weak and the ones who are being attacked by the enemy in their minds, please let us stop suggesting that they can kill themselves and get to Heaven. Please, please don't do this.

M
Mangan

HE_Reigns! Thanks for your contribution. I do agree with you. However, everyone who has contributed concerning my initial question has the right to his or her opinion on this matter.

Sincerely Magnus ;-)

S
sermonindex

Magnus, I've watched this discussion from the beginning and just now had time to get on the internet and reply!

I believe that MOST of those who commit sucide are NOT in their right mind by whatever disease, demon, etc and therefore not excluded from heaven. Another statement: Who in their "right mind" takes their own life? No one!

This belief was put to the test several years ago when I was so depressed and come so close to suicide. Can I say with 100% accuracy that I would've gone to heaven. I cannot. But I believe in mercy and I will ALWAYS stand on the side of love and mercy for those who are not in their right minds rather than condemn them and kick them to the curb.

[edit: I hit submit instead of preview] Only God knows a person's heart and will be able to judge to it and that person. We Christians have a horrible sense of the belief: survival of the fittest. If you can't keep up with the pack, you are useless and therefore going to hell. We are to go into the highways and byways and compell them through love and compassion to come and eat at the supper of the Lamb!!

God bless,
Lisa

M
Mangan

Thanks Lisa, for your contribution to my question!

Well suicide is from my perspective a theological testcase. If a born again Christian commits suicide and enter the kingdom of God;
we can surely say that a born again practising
homosexual, a born again practising kleptomaniac, or born again practising psychopath or even a born again murderer is home free; after all we are all victims either of the worlds structures or of a fallen depraved nature. Who is to blame? Not us, that's for sure (maybe the Creator?)!

The tendency today is to get away with guilt and not to take responsibility for our actions. All this fall short on the judgement day, when our lives will be on trail.

However if you like you can go back and read what Ive written on the biblical perspective on suicide earlier.

Sincerely Magnus
:-D

S
sermonindex

Mangan, (now that I have your name right!!)

I'm not going to get into a huge theological debate over this!! LOL I do understand your premise for arguement but I still stand and will always stand on the side of mercy and compassion for those who commit suicide.
:-)

B
BenBrockway

Amen Corey. That is, I believe, the right answer. It is up to God, not up to us! Amen!

M
Mangan

No, you got it right the first time. Magnus is my name (Latin for: Great, however Im not great), but Mangan is my nickname (in Swedish).

I respect your view Lisa. Sometimes it seems like our understanding of the world and our empathy is greater than God's. I wish it to be so that God would open heaven or the kingdom of God to everyone without any conditions at all. Sometimes I wish there were no biblical account concerning eternal damnation or hell. But then again: Is the Bible the Word of the living God or is it not?

I believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God, and do not dare to teach anything else than the whole counsel of God. Given these facts OT and NT give us no hope whatsoever to think, teach or believe that a suicidal would enter into eternal glory alongside the Martyrs and others who fought the good fight and kept the faith.

Sincerely Magnus
;-)

B
BenBrockway


HE_Reigns wrote:
http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/index.html

I hope by now that you may have read some posts on here. Especially kathleen's.

For some reason demonic influence is being left out of this, by these hypothetical questionings and these modern psychiatric ponderings have won out again over The Word of God. I've written two posts on this previous page, if you care to read them. But having to say this again, for the sake of 'whomever' may read this thread, that these throwing out of hypotheticals may be just what someone would need to hear, to tell them that they have an excuse to murder themselves. My main concern, again, is those who are young or those going through some very difficult time and that is when the enemy comes in like a flood. He is brighter than we are, you know that don't you ? He's Extremely intelligent and knows how to convince a mind of anything that's anti-Biblical. And the new psychiatry has 4 out of 5 of the population having "a mental disorder". Many believe this, once they are told this is so, by an M.D. who will then medicate them. Even some of the least dangerous of medications have quiet joint-action lawsuits against them, for causing those who took these seemingly harmless meds to commit suicide. Once we begin to side with the world and this New psychiatric propaganda, that is being driven by big Pharmacuetical industries, we've bought the lie that will be the very laws that will have Christians put away, because of a "religious-disorder". You push the Bible aside and pick up a modern book on psychiatry and you've damned a whole generation. People who suffer from just anxiety think they are loosing their minds and do think of ending it all. As soon as we throw that "messed up mind" option in there, we're including ourselves, as Jesus said the days ahead will be worse than ever before or ever will be again. Men's hearts failing them for fear. Why make excuses for people to commit the one act they won't have time to repent of ? If the Church would do their job and not throw so many to Psychology, we would have power in the Church and it would be filled with victorious overcomers. We have the means to heal minds and permanently.

I pray over this thread, that no one who is weak will read the nonsense that has been posted here.

When a teen-ager goes through a break-up with their boyfriend or homelife, they come as close to suicide than as ever. Young people do not have the emotional maturity to handle stress and neither do some disabled or abused people. If they read that God will forgive them on the grounds of insanity - they may just take that as coming from Christians that may be older and wiser than they are and go ahead and end their lives. I cannot believe that anyone would even come near, opening that door, because with hypotheticals, you implant a thought in someone's mind and under duress, they may just act on it. May we instead post stories of Christians, such as a Richard Wurmbrand and the like, who was drugged and tortured for 12 years and did not give up hope ? His mind was so far gone, all he could say was "Jesus" and he survived to start The Voice of the Martyrs. Instead of bringing up excuses on every page implying that people can get away with murdering themselves, let us encourage one another with stories of those who overcame more than what is thought to be humanly possible, because the days ahead will be torture for most of us and suicide is Never a Biblical alternative or option. It's not in There.

For the sake of the weak and the ones who are being attacked by the enemy in their minds, please let us stop suggesting that they can kill themselves and get to Heaven. Please, please don't do this.


HE_Reigns,

I hear what you're saying but I think there is more to it than what you think. Are there demonic possessions? Sure. However, there is more to life today then mere demonic possessions, then there was back then.

Here is what I mean:

Pretty much everyone and there mother doesn't eat like they did back in the Bible days. We consume tons of unhealthy food on a daily basis. We consume unnatural vitamins and minerals, and we take drugs for everything. We are so consumed with relying on man and machine, that we forget about God and his creation.

So, I say all this to say, that while there is demon possession, minds do go mental over lack of many years of nutrients, proper exercising and good eating habits.

Much of the mental and other disease related issues we have done to ourselves. We shouldn't place the blame on somebody, or something else!

(Edit): I do agree that there are too many people that take all their issues to the doctor, even if it is a spiritual issue. It's sad that we do that, before offering up our problems before the Lord. Again, I think we rely so heavily on man to fix our issues, whether physical, mental, or spiritual, that we leave God completely out of the equation.

M
Mangan

Everything concerning the eternal destination is up to God!!! But should that hinder us to expound
the Word of God? Should that hinder us to warn of a habitual sin that finally will (accordning to Scriptures)quench the Spirit of God in our hearts???

We, as Christians are called to be Salt and Light!!! We are called to enter into the narrow Gate and walk the narrow path. A person who commits suicide has bailed out on life and taken the highway (sad but true) to eternal destruction.

If not no demands from God in scripture is valid.
Magnus :-?

K
kathleen1

I believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God, and do not dare to teach anything else than the whole counsel of God. Given these facts OT and NT give us no hope whatsoever to think, teach or believe that a suicidal would enter into eternal glory alongside the Martyrs and others who fought the good fight and kept the faith.

Amen, Amen, Amen. I have read every post made here in this thread, to my knowledge, and have come away feeling saddened by how many "what if's" I've read here. The Word of God is pure, and it doesn't change for anyone. God is merciful, but God is just. No matter our pain or sympathy on this issue, we can not excuse sin, or disobedience.

The Lord says I AM the Way, The Truth and the LIFE, (Joh 14:6) and you can look to me and be saved, (Isa 45:22) Fear not, I will help you, and strengthen you (Isa 41:10, 13), Cast your cares on me (1 Pet 5:7), come to me, I will not cast away any who come (John 6:37) It's not in man that walks to direct his own steps (Jer 10:23)Lean not to your own understanding (Prov 3:5-6) Call upon me in the day of trouble and I will deliver you, (Psa 50:15), Call upon me and I will answer you and show you great and mighty things you don't know (Jer 33:3) I love you with an everlasting love (Jer 31:3)For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not. (Isa 30:15)

How many times and ways in the Word does God say let me help you, return to me, turn from your ways, sin brings death and destruction, look to me? If our opinions and thoughts are based on things we have felt or heard and they don't line up with the Word of God, they are not His. The devil tries often to imitate the voice of God, and deceives many who do not know this Book for themselves. Consider the passionate pleas of GOD to lost mankind, to struggling mankind, this awesome GOD who offers everything, even the life of His SON for our redemption. To cast all that off, and reject His offer of help and commit suicide is a slap in the face of God by a rebellious person who will not look to God for help. You say: "what if they didn't know? What if nobody told them?" until you are blue in the face, if you like. It's contention, debate and will lead to strife and division which the devil just loves to stir up. There is a church on every corner in this nation. There are Bibles in department stores, you can buy for just a few bucks, and most churches will give you one if you can't afford one. The Gospel is preached all over the internet and TV and radio. The excuse "I didn't know" will not stand up. To "what if" and think up some of the scenarios I've read here and how people can come up with all sorts of "what if this happens, or that" and think it will stand before God, is sad and frightening. Just because our society wants to excuse all kinds of aberrant behavior, and blame it on their childhood, or whatever, does not mean we can hold the Almighty God to the same standard. If what WE say does not line up with the Word of God, then what are we doing saying it? I think and I feel will always lead us astray....

And last, but not least,

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


I do agree with the concerns voiced here that a weak, or naive youngster who is troubled reading some of this, could, with the help of the enemy, and an already confused and hurting heart, be led to believe they could still be saved...because there has been enough doubts voiced here by some about "what if" and "nobody knows" and "God is so merciful" that someone could be tricked into doing this awful sin. The Bible says fornication is a sin against the body, but how much more a sin to destroy the life God gave, which is a blatant rejection of all the help He offers? I've heard recent reports that suicide rates among our soldiers are at historic highs, as well. And the fact that a teenager or young person or whomever the person may be, could not know God's promises, and offer of help tells me the church needs to quit blaming others and get on her face and ask God to use our lives to make a difference instead of wanting to cast blame and debate and contend over things like this.

B
BenBrockway


kathleen1 wrote:
I believe the Scriptures to be the Word of God, and do not dare to teach anything else than the whole counsel of God. Given these facts OT and NT give us no hope whatsoever to think, teach or believe that a suicidal would enter into eternal glory alongside the Martyrs and others who fought the good fight and kept the faith.

Amen, Amen, Amen. I have read every post made here in this thread, to my knowledge, and have come away feeling saddened by how many "what if's" I've read here. The Word of God is pure, and it doesn't change for anyone. God is merciful, but God is just. No matter our pain or sympathy on this issue, we can not excuse sin, or disobedience.

The Lord says I AM the Way, The Truth and the LIFE, (Joh 14:6) and you can look to me and be saved, (Isa 45:22) Fear not, I will help you, and strengthen you (Isa 41:10, 13), Cast your cares on me (1 Pet 5:7), come to me, I will not cast away any who come (John 6:37) It's not in man that walks to direct his own steps (Jer 10:23)Lean not to your own understanding (Prov 3:5-6) Call upon me in the day of trouble and I will deliver you, (Psa 50:15), Call upon me and I will answer you and show you great and mighty things you don't know (Jer 33:3) I love you with an everlasting love (Jer 31:3)For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not. (Isa 30:15)

How many times and ways in the Word does God say let me help you, return to me, turn from your ways, sin brings death and destruction, look to me? If our opinions and thoughts are based on things we have felt or heard and they don't line up with the Word of God, they are not His. The devil tries often to imitate the voice of God, and deceives many who do not know this Book for themselves. Consider the passionate pleas of GOD to lost mankind, to struggling mankind, this awesome GOD who offers everything, even the life of His SON for our redemption. To cast all that off, and reject His offer of help and commit suicide is a slap in the face of God by a rebellious person who will not look to God for help. You say: "what if they didn't know? What if nobody told them?" until you are blue in the face, if you like. It's contention, debate and will lead to strife and division which the devil just loves to stir up. There is a church on every corner in this nation. There are Bibles in department stores, you can buy for just a few bucks, and most churches will give you one if you can't afford one. The Gospel is preached all over the internet and TV and radio. The excuse "I didn't know" will not stand up. To "what if" and think up some of the scenarios I've read here and how people can come up with all sorts of "what if this happens, or that" and think it will stand before God, is sad and frightening. Just because our society wants to excuse all kinds of aberrant behavior, and blame it on their childhood, or whatever, does not mean we can hold the Almighty God to the same standard. If what WE say does not line up with the Word of God, then what are we doing saying it? I think and I feel will always lead us astray....

And last, but not least,

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


I do agree with the concerns voiced here that a weak, or naive youngster who is troubled reading some of this, could, with the help of the enemy, and an already confused and hurting heart, be led to believe they could still be saved...because there has been enough doubts voiced here by some about "what if" and "nobody knows" and "God is so merciful" that someone could be tricked into doing this awful sin. The Bible says fornication is a sin against the body, but how much more a sin to destroy the life God gave, which is a blatant rejection of all the help He offers? I've heard recent reports that suicide rates among our soldiers are at historic highs, as well. And the fact that a teenager or young person or whomever the person may be, could not know God's promises, and offer of help tells me the church needs to quit blaming others and get on her face and ask God to use our lives to make a difference instead of wanting to cast blame and debate and contend over things like this.


Let me bring this to light, since it seems that you have no sympathy for a Christian who, for whatever reason, becomes mentally deranged. Apparently they are hellbound.


Explain to me the Christian who gets a really nasty case of alzhimers (however you spell it). If he losses his memory and completely forgets who God is, is he then hellbound?

Dear ones, what a tragedy that would be if God didn't make an exception for one of His children who fall under this condition.

M
Mangan

Quote: Explain to me the Christian who gets a really nasty case of alzhimers (however you spell it). If he losses his memory and completely forgets who God is, is he then hellbound?

Answer: Now your missing the point clearly!!! You can not compare a physical brain damage as obvious as alzhimers with suicide or suicidal tendencies.

In suicide the person however not his usually me - is still entertaining a will towards destruction and it is the free will that makes the action possible!!!

In suicide (after what Ive read) there is often something that person is lacking that would make life worth continue. In alzhimers the person just disappear.

Magnus :-x

S
sermonindex

The Point is being missed again.
I remember when I was a teen-ager and my "steady" broke up with me.
I was always a happy kid, but I thought "life was over" when we broke up. I wanted to die and now that I'm old and full of illnesses - I came extremely close to having a "voice within" convince me that, "God would understand".
Then I thought, [THANK GOD], "but what will that do to those who've known me a such "a strong person" ?"
And "where" did "that voice" come from ? It was so entirely Convincing - of how it would be best for everyone and bring relief to my spouse and the others who worry about my health and so forth. Amazingly convincing and the physical pain and anguish that I was experiencing that day, had me to think that God would understand entirely. It was all so tremendously powerful in the negative sense, that my rational/logical mind would not kick in at all. So I came just a hair's breath from just taking all of the pills that I had - a sufficient amount to have "done it".
I can only [b]Thank God[/b], I had no one's posts to read that day, that would have helped me along, to think I could just "do it". I Thank God that I thought about my family and friends and how it would affect them --- but I believe that [b]He[/b] put those thoughts of love in my mind. I stayed alive that day "for Love." For the love of my family and friends. Because unless you've had someone close to you commit suicide, you don't fully understand the havoc it reaps, especially in the younger one's minds. It can start a generational affect, if a child knows their grandparent did it, or a parent or a kid at school, etc..

It can take ONE SECOND to end your life.

Ben, do you have any idea how many people are suffering in this world, who would take your sentences here and say to themselves, "Yes, I am suffering from Alzheimer [or Whatever] and don't want to degenerate that way." Look at the suffering in China and Africa - it is worse than a person with any disease, in and of itself. Americans haven't the foggiest of what "suffering" is. They want the easy way out as often as possible. A true Christian with The Holy Spirit inside them, will not commit suicide, even with Alzheimer disease. A true Christian loves and believes the Truth of God's Word and it dwells in them. HE protects them, even from themselves. Love is His most powerful agent of healing. I've witnessed many in my area with Alzheimer and other types of dementia, because of my age, and the Christians are entirely different under these diseases than the non-Christians. The Holy Spirit is very evident in them, even in the final stages of diseases.
We had a friend of our family who shot himself to death because he was dying of cancer and didn't want to be a bother to his wife and all, but he wasn't saved, yet it sent a tsunami through-out his entire family and for his friends. It was horrible for them.
We all have stated in one way or another, that we haven't the answers for ALL that are now gone -- but again, as I've said many times now -- IF you cannot guarantee, with full certainty, that a person will definitely go to Heaven if they murder themselves, than stop making up these "ways out" for people.
You are not bringing "light" to this subject.
You are straying from His Word and could 'potentially' lead others down a path of Final destruction with these type arguments.
Please consider who may read these posts. Please consider others first. Let the dead bury the dead, but Think of the Living.

I posted this on the mother Teresa headline and feel it is appropriate for this topic also.

[b]John tell us, "in _ beginning was The Word [Logos], and The Word was with God, and The Word was God.
In Revelation 19:13 - HE is returning and His Name is still "The Word of God".
Our Bibles are called "The Word of God".
One knows that they are Saved by their Love of The Logos. Both He Himself and His written Word.
Of this and only this, should we be extremely jealous, lest our compassion, extensions, sympathies and so forth exceed that of God Himself, which is a contradiction in terms or thoughts.
Our jealousy for The Logos, should - in comparison, to our love for even parents, siblings, spouses, friends, would be as hate.
If we cannot separate Christ the Logos from The Logos of the written Word, [being the only source written of and by Him], then our jealousy to abide and not contradict Him, is where our hearts of Love toward Him should be. By this, do we know that we Love Him. We would never consciously intend to contradict Him, in any of our thoughts or words, but yet, as we grow in Him - there are times in our attempts toward showing His Mercy, that we may step outside the strict parameters of His Word.
If a person does not jealousy and unconditionally love and guard The Word of God, than that will cause them to "go beyond what is written" and our love for The Word of God should be questioned and prayed over, if we name The Name.
When 'our' compassion, mercy, sympathy, grace - exceeds that of The Word of God or contradicts The Word of God, than we are in error. Remembering always that The Word of God is Who we now call Jesus.
Humans by nature swing as a pendulum between being less compassionate than The Word of God or in their attempts to be "merciful", exceeds the compassion of The Word of God. The only plume line is The Word of God, lest we pardon those, who have not His pardon and by doing so, lead others astray.
This is why He said that we would be hated. We do indeed see, or should see, all things as black or white. Either it is in total agreement with The Word of God or it is error and from the father of lies. No gray areas, as the world would want us to have and is strongly pushing the Church to have.
Our intense jealous love for The Word of God, will be and has been the reason for the persecution of the Saints.
Though our intentions may be toward kindness and mercy and sympathy, if we go beyond what is written, we have gone beyond The Word of God, Who is the judge of the whole earth. And if in our intentions toward kindness and mercy and sympathy, we go beyond what is written, then our love for The Word of God is lacking.
Love must be toward The Word of God first, then His Love will perfect our love to be as His - which contains His Holiness [which it and with it's demands] at the same time --- if we stray from The Word of God, we make our love more perfect than His.
Jeremiah, just for one, is a good example of that Love-Jealousy we must have for His Word.
God said, "Ye must be born-again." and "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other Name under Heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."


1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.[/b]

http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/index.html

B
BenBrockway

Ok, I think you are missing my point all together. So, I will just drop the thread for now.

Read up on mentally deranged/deprived patients, and then come back and we can discuss the issues about the most severe cases of the mentally ill committing suicide (without their senses intact) and tell me that God won't accept them.

I am not saying that suicide is ok. I don't think anyone should commit suicide, however, I don't think we can make a case for those who are severly mentally ill.

EDIT: Read what I am saying. Severe mental illness, a stage where their mind is way gone, and their senses are not intact. This means that they aren't in their right mind and don't know how to make a right judgement. In the process of their extreme mental illness they committ suicide. These same people would not commit suicide if they even had a decent sense of a right mind. Again, read up on what severe mental illness does to a patients mind.

And please stop assuming that I'm making a case for anyone to justify suicide.

P.S. He_Reigns - The Scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with my thougts on a severly mentally-illed Christian person commiting suicide when they are not in their right mind.

By the way, I have had a number of close friends commit suicide, and I highly doubt they are in Heaven.

B
BenBrockway

And by the way, my wife has tried committing suicide three times in the past year, so trust me, I am familiar with suicide, and what God thinks about it.

S
sermonindex

Ben,

You can't convince someone who has no mercy or understanding to show mercy and understanding.

To all those who so easily condemn and judge those who are weak minded (for whatever reasons).....

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mt 7:2

B
BenBrockway


Intens4Him wrote:
Ben,

You can't convince someone who has no mercy or understanding to show mercy and understanding.

To all those who so easily condemn and judge those who are weak minded (for whatever reasons).....

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mt 7:2

True. I don't know why I try so hard.

M
Mangan

Ben: I have read up on mentally (Ive devoted about a running metre to the subject) deranged/deprived patients! I have also worked with clients with severe mental disorders (such as schizophrenics)so I know what Im talkning about.

I still would'nt compare what is frequently viewed as a geriatric disease with a mental disorder (whether a severe or a lighter form).

A person who commits suicide does not necessarily have to be deranged/deprived; in other words; - we have to see all kinds of spectra in this matter.

However The reason I posted my initial question on this forum was mainly theological:

i. To check out the viewpoints from Christians around the world on this highly explosive matter.

ii. To problemize over whether or not a suicidal would enter the kingdom of God given the biblical accounts (which Ive shared in some of my contributions on this topic earlier) and perspective.

iii. To state my argument solely on Scripture. In that exposition Ive discovered that Scripture does not give even the slightest hope for a person which uses his own will to end his own life.

In all this the conclusions sometimes seems quite harsh and prejudiced aswell as intolerant. But thats the stony side of Scripture. However as a human being I feel deeply for those who struggle with depression and other forms of hardships.

Magnus :-(

B
BenBrockway


Mangan wrote:
Ben: I have read up on mentally (Ive devoted about a running metre to the subject) deranged/deprived patients! I have also worked with clients with severe mental disorders (such as schizophrenics)so I know what Im talkning about.

I still would'nt compare what is frequently viewed as a geriatric disease with a mental disorder (whether a severe or a lighter form).

A person who commits suicide does not necessarily have to be deranged/deprived; in other words; - we have to see all kinds of spectra in this matter.

However The reason I posted my initial question on this forum was mainly theological:

i. To check out the viewpoints from Christians around the world on this highly explosive matter.

ii. To problemize over whether or not a suicidal would enter the kingdom of God given the biblical accounts (which Ive shared in some of my contributions on this topic earlier) and perspective.

iii. To state my argument solely on Scripture. In that exposition Ive discovered that Scripture does not give even the slightest hope for a person which uses his own will to end his own life.

In all this the conlusions sometimes seems quite harsh and prejudiced aswell as intolerant. But thats the stony side of Scripture. However as a humanbeing I feel deeply for those who struggle with depression and other forms of hardships.

Magnus :-(


Magnus,

Shall we refer back to my original post?

See here:


I haven't really read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been brought up, but what say you (all) about a Christian who gets a mental disease, gets really deranged, and commits suicide?

Does God spare his eternal soul, or does he get the damnation that some of you claim is begot by all suicidals?

I was bringing another spectrum to the table. I wanted to get people's opinions on the menatlly deranged, and what people thought about them going to heaven or hell when committing suicide.

So, for your info.:

i. I, too, am checking the viewpoints on this highly explosive matter

ii. The whole reason I brought up the mentally deranged is "to see all kinds of spectra in this matter."

iii. This is a part of the theological discussion, considering the fact that even the mentally ill are still going to heaven or hell.

S
sermonindex

[i]Pro 24:11-12 Deliver them that are taken to death,
and them that are tottering to destruction, oh stop them!
If thou sayest, "We knew not of it indeed," -
It is not so: The Weigher of hearts, who sees through it, and He that observeth thy soul, He knoweth it, and requiteth man according to his work. [Keil & Delitzsch][/i]

Magnus, God bless you.

Mathew Henry says of the watchman in Eze 33:1-9 - "Now, [1.] If he do his part, if he be betimes aware of all the dangers that fall within his cognizance, and give warning of them, he has discharged his trust, and has not only delivered his soul, but earned his wages. If the people do not take warning, if they either will not believe the notice he gives them, will not believe the danger to be so great or so near as really it is, or will not regard it, and so are surprised by the enemy in their security, it is their own fault; the blame is not to be laid upon the watchman, but their blood is upon their own head. If any person goes presumptuously into the mouth of danger, though he heard the sound of the trumpet, and was told by it where the danger was, and so the sword comes and takes him away in his folly, he is[i] felo de se - a suicide; foolish man, he has destroyed himself.[/i]
But, [2.] If the watchman do not do his duty, if he might have seen the danger, and did not, but was asleep, or heedless, or looking another way, or if he did see the danger (for so the case is put here) and shifted only for his own safety, and blew not the trumpet to warn the people, so that some are surprised and cut off in their iniquity (Eze_33:6), cut off suddenly, without having time to cry, Lord, have mercy upon me, time to repent and make their peace with God (which makes the matter much the worse, that the poor creature is taken away in his iniquity), his blood shall be required at the watchman's hand; he shall be found guilty of his death, because he did not give him warning of his danger. But if the watchman do his part, and the people do theirs, all is well; both he that gives warning and he that takes warning have delivered their souls."

Here are some websites that are helpful for those who desire to research this [i]most[/i] serious question.

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/There-are-NO-Chemical-Imbalances.htm

http://www.coping.org/control/content.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/current22.htm

http://net-burst.net/suicide/suicide.htm

http://www.self-injury.org/dnj.html

http://www.antipsychiatry.org/

http://www.benzo.org.uk/

http://www.breggin.com/

http://www.sntp.net/

The scope of the problem:

-In the last 45 years, suicide rates have increased by 60 percent in some countries.

-Worldwide, suicide ranks among the three leading causes of death among those aged 15-44 years.

-In the year 2000, approximately one million people died of suicide. This represents a global mortality rate of 16 per 100,000 or one death every 40 seconds.

-For every suicide there are at least 20 suicide attempts.

-Self-inflicted injuries represented 1.8 percent of the global burden of disease in 1998 and are expected to increase to 2.4percent in 2020.

-Suicide rates among young people have been increasing and they are currently the group at highest risk in one third of all countries (developed and developing).

-At least 100,000 adolescents die by suicide every year.

Figures from the World Health Organization.

Man was born with a conscience. Secular Psychiatrists have found that "guilt" leads to neurosis and disorders. Research the causes of "mental problems" and see if our moral decline has not also affected the rate of suicides. You could save many lives with His Word alone, not mixed with humanistic Psychology. Do the research that saves lives.
If we would only get it straight on this, we may be saving our own lives from the chances of suicide down the last-days road. Or preserve our own sanity, at the least.

M
Mangan

HE_Reigns! Thank you for the statistics and for your valuable opinions.

Ben: Ok I understand that your motives and intentions are in the line of what we are trying to discuss here. You are welcome to problemize even more:-D!!!

However the problem with suicide in relation to faith and the eternal question is the willing part of it: our free will.

Even if we claim that there are some forces that inhabits a person and causes him or her to feel and act in a certain way; it is still that person acting and with it, there will be consequences. Every person is from Gods viewpoint responsible for its life and actions. We can not run from our freedom to choose; even not to choose is a choice not to choose. God has given us the freedom of choice - but our society today is more bent on playing the blame game than to start taking responsibilty for life itself. In that responsibility we have to care for and help our weaker citizens.

The argument that a severe mental disorder hinders a person from responsibility, guilt and accountability has to, if it should be considered logic, transcend to include serial killers, psychopaths, Child molesters and other people.

A few years ago in Stockholm, Sweden a man drove his car into a crowd of people stating that he was remoted-controlled by someone unidentified. Was that the truth? And if so, did he have to obey that evil voice inside of him? In Jönköping, Sweden, last year a man killed a 10 year old boy who was walking to school. The man stabbed the boy about 30 times claiming voices in his head forced him. Is that true? The voices in my estimation was from his brain and did not in reality have power over him. It was when he obeyed the voices that the actions took place ...

So back to the issue ... A person who commits suicide do not want to live; and it is the will not to live that makes the following act certain; just as the will to live makes every attempt or effort to maintain life certain.

So the crucial point is man's will!!! A person inhabit by the Holy Spirit of life i.e. a born again believer will have to disobey the inner-voice in continuous state (which is a continuous state of sinning and rebellion).

There is no chance in life that I ever will be convinced that a person can be filled by the Holy Spirit and a spirit of death at the same time and furthermore that the evil spirit ends up as the winner against the spirit of life (no way!!!).

Sincerely Magnus
;-)

B
BenBrockway

Oh Magnus. This is going nowhere, fast. I shall end this conversation, because you just don't understand.

M
Mangan

Im sorry to hear that, really! However you are free to enlight me in that case (you being more enlighted and so). I am willing to listen. Thanks anyway, for caring concerning this important issue, and thanks for your contribution in this topic.

God bless you Ben!

Sincerely Magnus :-(

K
kathleen1

Let me bring this to light, since it seems that you have no sympathy for a Christian who, for whatever reason, becomes mentally deranged. Apparently they are hellbound.

What I said has nothing to do with your point. I was not talking about alzheimers disease. There is a big difference between being stricken with this disease, and being demonically oppressed and driven to the point you no longer see the hope in living and end your life. I am saddened to hear about your wife, and your friends who have tried and have committed suicide. I believe we all need to be praying for you and your precious wife, for God to deliver her and renew in her a desire to live. The devil is very good at attacking people's minds with vicious thoughts, vicious lies, and many times he comes so strong, like a flood, they are overwhelmed, and collapse under the weight. He drives people to despair of hope, and delights in their misery. Remember, he's seeking whom he may devour. I pray the love of God and life of Christ in His people will respond to this need with intercessory prayer...

Remember, folks, Psa 50:18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.

We have been made aware by Ben that the thief is trying to steal and kill and destroy in his home. If we do not stand against this and pray, by inaction, we consent to his deed.

Ben, I am not sure how you will receive this, but I have to mention it. I listen to most all of the preaching at Times Square Church in NYC. The assoicate Pastor Neil Rhodes has preached an "Overcoming" Series tackling some of the serious issues facing Christians. One of the messages was about Suicide. It was a powerful message. You can find it at the link below. It's a free download. They make all their preaching free. I believe God will minister strength and help to you in your need...and I will definitely be lifting you and your family up before the throne of the Most High. He is stronger and greater than any power of the enemy. He promised when the enemy comes in like a flood HE will raise the Standard-and what can stand against the Word of God? You will be in my prayers and on my heart, Ben.

[url=http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons_inline.php?player=&filter=y&mt=&yr=&ct=&sp=&lo=&kw=&srt=titleA&offset=700&ocl=&news_only=]http://www.tscnyc.org/sermons_inline.php?player=&filter=y&mt=&yr=&ct=&sp=&lo=&kw=&srt=titleA&offset=700&ocl=&news_only=[/url]

There is also a message on here that will greatly help encourage you, preached by the Sr Pastor at TSC, Carter Conlon "The Devil is after one thing in your trial" posted on Sermon Index.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=123&min=140&orderby=titleA&show=20]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=123&min=140&orderby=titleA&show=20[/url]

I pray you will find time to listen to these two messages, and be encouraged, you will be lifted up before Him, and perhaps if you will read Psalms 132, He will minister the life from the precious promises in this Chapter. It starts out "Remember David (which means Beloved-and all His children are Beloved) in all his afflictions.. and then God goes on to answer what He will do for His beloved...I pray God will encourage you with His Word today as you present yourself to Him...He is your ever present help in trouble...He will not fail you...

F
freedbyjc

Do not be too hard on Ben ... REMEMBER TO LOVE YOUR BROTHER...most of us have not walked in his shoes and do not have the unique pespective of living through a spouses suicide attempt ... let alone three...

Still on the topic, -[i]I just now[/i] read it all dear ones-and I must pose some related questions [IMHO] that has not been raised so far...

[b]Those people who refuse medical treatments that will save their lives [substantually or minimally prolong] ... Are they not committing suicide?

When they turn their back on universally credible and successful medical treatments and [i]"place themselves in God's will"[/i] ... are they really?

Many times they espouse a "quality of life" issue ... as Christians is that up to us?[/b]

Any thoughts?

M
Mangan

Good and tricky questions raised here by Freedbyjc!!!

Quote: "Those people who refuse medical treatments that will save their lives [substantually or minimally prolong] ... Are they not committing suicide?

When they turn their back on universally credible and successful medical treatments and "place themselves in God's will" ... are they really?"

Answer: On one point (from my Viewpoint)it differs from a real suicide: Such a person refusing medical treatment wants to live. In placing his life and destiny in God's hand he or she is showing a greater faith in God than in men (i.e. so called specialists).

A person who commits suicide dont want to live at all, and is surley not concerned in letting God step in and help him or her and light up the soul.

Anyway: The reasons for not seekning help can be various; I believe it sometimes can be out of fear of the pain of the treatment or something else.

It would be wrong to say that God has given us doctors to cure us so that God himself dont have to.

However if God speaks clearly to seek medical treatment - it is a sin not to obey!!!

Magnus
:-D

M
Mangan

Ben! My accounts on this subject is not meant to trample on someone in deep hardships as you and your wife. Do not even consider thinking that. Im deeply sorry if I in some fashion have hurt you.

However Ive lost a friend through suicide and I have a person very close to me who just recently tried to commit suicide. This is a reality for many of us.
It is with them (above mentioned) in mind and out of love Im stating my beliefs on this forum. I am truly concerned for the eternal wellbeing for the one who is still alive and fighting the battle against the evil.

There is so much that I want to change concerning the word of God (such as the doctrine of hell and eternal damnation, and Jesus as the Only Way) but the Word of God still stands there with all its provocative demands and its great promises. If I belive the Word of the living God to be true it is painful to see how it veritable
collide with real life for many of us on this our earthly realm.

This is what Ive discovered on my journey of life:
i. The Word of God changes lives but life with its hardships does not change the Word of God.
ii. To know what God thinks about a subject we have to saturate us with prayer and knowledge in the Word of God.

iii. God's view of a topic does not contradict the words he has revealed to us for our eternal wellbeing.

Lastly: My compassion and love has the will and power to reach down to the deepest pits of Hell to every sinner everywhere; but it can not change God's opinion and save from eternal damnation: only God can do that (and he has stipulated a way for salvation - Jesus Christ himself).

Sincerely Magnus

S
sermonindex

Magnus, Thank you for bringing up what 'else' these 'voices' can tell people to do.

Jesus said, thoughts either come from God or Satan. It seems there is no spiritual void out there - where thoughts are just 'neutral'.
Thoughts either align with truth or they are from the deceiver --- regardless of what the thought may be.
Our problem in the Church, is that we've made some sins different than others. Having checked every Scripture verse that could relate to this issue -- it appears suicide is still murder.
Murder is classed right in there with adultery, murdering others, abortion, euthanasia and the list goes on.
Why we see this one sin as better than or different than killing a baby, I don't understand.
I left those links for people who truly want to understand. The answers are in them. We've believed a lie in regards to Psychiatry/Psychology, in the first place. Secondly, we've made this sin less than what it is somehow, by humanistic worldly reasonings that we're fed day in and day out. Those links I left address it all and again, we need to be deprogrammed from the world's way of thinking. And not just that - but see that there are seasoned secular Psychiatrists exposing the myths of modern Pharmapsychology, etc.
I worked with a bunch of people of all ages, who's largest complaint is that, their shrinks don't listen anymore. They just pull out the Script pad. The key here is, we - every person - makes second by second choices - either for or against conscience and The Lord is constantly Witnessing to His Creation. Reading Romans chpt 1 and 2 - just to start with.

Again - I would like to thank yourself and kathleen. You may not know who out there, that you may have saved.

Ben, I'm sorry for your wife's condition. That falls on you as your responsibility and that is a very heavy responsibility.
Please research those links I've left and see if they may not shine a new light on ways to help her. They are "Professionals".

He is our Hope. His strength [i]is[/i] sufficient.
Weep with those who weep - [u]the Church has The Only Truth that sets men Free[/u].
We have to be giving the world the reason for our Hope. We need to be the Hospital of the world Spiritually - but not with the world's theories. The world has failed itself and the Statistics prove they are wrong - Yet we have the answers in Christ Jesus The [u]Creator[/u] God --- In His Miracle Working Love.

M
Mangan

Well, thank's to you all for contributing on this important issue. God bless you all!

Magnus Nordlund, Sweden.

T
thomasm

I don't have a yes or no answer for the debate.
I know that our Lord never came to condemn the world, but to save it. We should follow in HIS footsteps. The gospel is the power of God, to a lost and depraved generation, we need to give hope for the hurting broken hearted, set the captives free, and release the oppressed. Let's not condemn the lost, but hold out Jesus, our only hope to them.
To truly be set free as a believer, we have to want to die and go the way of the cross, so Jesus can truly be our life.
I was at the point of suicide myself, I was saved but was lacking knowledge , I only knew that Jesus died for my sin's, and I confessed them daily, and tried hard not to redo them, but failed. My heart was broken beyond repair and I had nothing in this world to live for, and to top it off I, though I tried couldn't please God and live a holy life, I was tormented day and night by the tormenter, though I thought it my own mind going cazy. One night I said " God if you are real , take my life or I will". Instantly I was full of Joy and peace and knew for certain my sins were forgiven, my broken heart was gone, and I was pure inside for the first time in my life.
Don't give up on the opressed and suicidal their closer then you think to the kingdom of God. Show them the healer Jesus , he came for such as these.
love tom

S
sermonindex

Amen thomasm. That is the point that Magnus and kathleen and others were making.
We 'give up on them' when we hint to them that "it may be alright to do."
Your testimony is much like mine and many others.
There is ALWAYS HOPE WITH JESUS - ALWAYS!

[u]Thank you[/u] for this encouraging testimony.

W
wal

n our day, we often hear Christians say things like, "..my friend committed suicide, but I'm sure he was a Christian so now he's in heaven with all his mental pain and anguish gone." But is suicide the universal "pain-killer" that so many professing Christians seem to think that it is, or is this just the wishful thinking of those who mourn the departed? The unpalatable truth is, none of us can be absolutely sure that anyone (beside ourselves) is a true Christian. The cliche of someone wearing their heart on their sleeve is a colloquialism, not a truism. The only one who truly knows the heart of man is God (Jeremiah 17:10). Despite our human suppositions, desires and beliefs, exactly who is a true Christian only God knows for sure. And indeed that is "His business," not ours. We judge not, for it is not given to man to know the true state of anyone's heart (1st Corinthians 3:12-13). We look on the outward and preach the gospel, and that is good enough. But God looks upon the inward man, not on the outward appearance of things. He is able to discern between soul and spirit, and between joint and marrow. He ponders the heart (Proverbs 24:12) and knows it's intents, no matter how cleverly man may cloak them in outward piety, righteousness or benevolence. So while we might define suicide with euphemistic synonyms, the truth is that it is the act of intentional killing. And the scriptures declare we should not shed man's blood in taking human life, for it is the sin of murder.

Exodus 20:13

"Thou shalt not kill."
Can a Christian commit suicide, when suicide is the act of murder? In suicide one exalts themselves to the position of God, who has the power to give and to take life. It is the act of deliberately forsaking God's command, "thou shalt not murder." There is really no plausible way of getting around the fact that suicide is willful killing, and God declares murderers shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8), which is the second death. But of course, this is the part that no one wants to hear about.
Nevertheless, I don't think that this is really the question at issue here today. For the sake this paper, we will assume that most all "faithful" Christians believe that suicide is sin. The real question at issue today is:

"Can a Christian commit suicide?"

Or rather, more accurately put, can a professed Christian that kills himself, have been a true Christian? I believe the appropriate Biblical answer is, "yes it's certainly possible, yet given all that God has to say, it's also not likely." That certainly is not going to be the popular answer in the politically correct atmosphere of today's churches, but it is an honest and Biblically sound answer. And these type answers are hard to come by these days.


How Do We Know It's Possible They Were Saved?

Can Christians who commit suicide be saved? Yes! We know it's possible because all of the sins of God's Children were accounted for in Christ's "finished" work on the cross. Therefore, if a true believer (the keyword being, true) were to somehow get to the point where God (for His own purposes) abrogated His normal way of strengthening and upholding Christians in time of trial allowing him to lose all hope so that they did somehow commit suicide, then that sin would surely not keep them out of heaven. Because "all" the sins of the elect were paid for in Christ Jesus. No sin that a true Christian could commit could keep him from the love of God. But the key phrase is "if God were to abrogate His normal way upholding and strengthening Christians." But that is a big "if," because what would possibly lead us to think that God would do that?

Isaiah 41:10

"Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee;"
God does not leave nor forsake the true Christian in time of despair. On the contrary, He is our strength and help. Yet the typical justification for people defending suicide is to ask, "what about Samson? Did Samson commit suicide?" The truth is, God gave Samson the extraordinary strength to accomplish His purposes in this feat, and Samson gave his life that judgement would be accomplished. His life truly was entirely in the hands of God, and his death was to bring vengeance on the enemies of the Lord. Samson was a chosen vessel used in the "purpose of God" to get this done. Remember, Samson 'asked God' for strength to do this. Not for strength to kill himself, but to take vengeance upon these Philistines for what they had done to the Lord's anointed. In God granting his prayer, Samson would indeed die, but not for hopelessness, despair, faithlessness, sadness, depression or monetary ruin as is the case in suicides. Samson died for the glory of God, and how is that in any way related to the acts of suicide today?
Judges 16:28

"And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes."
In prayer He left his life entirely in the hands of God. In faithfulness and righteousness he prayed to God for miraculous power to bring down judgment on God's enemies declaring, "Let me die with the Philistines." In other words, He knew that in bringing down the bricks upon these Philistines he would die, but the judgement of these ungodly was God's purpose, and thus to him more important than his life. He was asking that his death might be used to bring glory to God in this great judgment of the Philistines. And that is exactly what happened as this episode stands for all time as a testimony to the glory of God, not the despair in suicidal tendencies. It's an important distinction to make and to understand that this is not the mindset of those contemplating suicide today. Their mind is not one set on bringing glory to God, but one of faithlessness and hopelessness. God forbid Samson should be placed in that category. Samson is mentioned in Hebrews as one of the heroes of faith. Samson died after praying God's strength to accomplish this act as he carried out God's will on the Philistines. He did not jump off a bridge in despair or slit his wrists in hopelessness. In Samson's prayers God was glorified, and Samson is remembered for all time as a hero of faith. If we were to irrationally take the Samson story out of context as evidence that Christians normally fall into despair and commit suicide, then we would have to effectively throw out all the rest of the Bible. Yet proof texts of scripture, taken out of context, are "Pretext!" God Himself ordained this story to bring glory to His name, and not so one could look at it as justification to commit suicide. The Lord didn't abandon Samson, God was there giving him the strength to accomplish his task to His own Glory. He died more as a solder or warrior in battle carrying out the will of God in bringing judgment upon God's enemies, not as mentally unstable man in despair contemplating suicide. Moreover, the whole historical event is also a spiritual pattern painted by God illustrating a "deeper spiritual truth." In Samson having his eyes put out, being brought down to Gaza (being interpreted meaning stronghold), being bound with brass chains, and having to grind in the prison house, this is all as a spiritual picture to illustrate captivity in Satan's house. This is a whole other Bible study in itself. Suffice it to say that this story in no way, shape or form has anything to say addressing the issue of suicide. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are both round, but that is where the similarity ends. Samson did not take poison hemp, he did not throw himself off a mountain, or take knife to his own throat. He died glorifying God, and God honored his prayer for justice. Contrary to popular belief, his prayer was not for suicide (a vain prayer), but for justice in God being avenged on his enemies. No God didn't give him strength to kill himself, God gave him strength that he would kill more philistines in his death, than he had in his life (Judges 16:30). Thus God's purpose would be fulfilled through this act. This act in no way either defends suicide, or proves that Christians commit suicide. Suicide is not the trait of the faithfulness found in the believer. Would the Spirit of God inspire us to think about suicide, or is it the spirit of the antichrist that scriptures tells us was a "murderer" from the beginning? Thus it should be no surprise he sifts the weak as wheat to commit such. The fact is, genuine faith and trust in God and suicide, do not go hand in hand.
Psalms 9:10

"And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee."
These aren't empty words or vain platitudes that really have no Christian significance, they are words to live by. And we must believe that a true Christian has faith, has trust and has hope in Christ. Nevertheless, "if" a true Christian should in a instant of weakness decide to drive his car off a cliff, or shot himself, that instant of bad judgment would certainly not keep him out of the Kingdom. Because true salvation means that all of his sins were forgiven, and being faithful to scripture, understanding the sovereignty of God, and the doctrine of eternal security, we can come to no other conclusion. But that is a big "if!" So while I certainly would have to agree that it is theoretically possible for a true Christian to commit suicide and have been saved, I would also offer the caveat that God is not mocked, even though as humans not discerning the hearts, we are mocked routinely. I also would have to ask, "what would ever make us think that God would abrogate His care over the elect in time of trial to allow this hopelessness and despair, without solution and resolution?" Certainly nothing that I have ever read in scripture would lead me to believe that.
John 14:18

"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness."
Again, these aren't just empty words, they are faithful promises to those who trust in God. And those who truly trust in God would be the true Christians. If the promises are true, then we have to honestly conclude that committing suicide would be an extremely unlikely (if not near impossible) occurrence, since it is God who works within us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). Of course as finite human beings in the flesh (in our human emotions, desires, and will) we cringe when we hear something like this, as we don't want to think of people, friends, or our loved ones as possibly not having made it into to the Kingdom. Nevertheless, the word of God is not as silent on the issue as some would like to believe. And ultimately, we have to surrender our will to the authority of God, confessing, "Thy will, not mine, be done!" So, can a Christian commit suicide? Yes, but it is highly improbable.

How Are We So Sure It is Unlikely

It's really a simple matter of believing "everything" that God declares about salvation, and not allowing our own emotions, biases and feelings to cloud our thinking.

Proverbs 21:2

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts."
We can convince ourselves that anyone is saved, particularly after they have died. But God looks deeper than the emotionalism and will of man. It goes without saying that we would all like to think that our loved ones, personal friends and acquaintances who have died are in heaven and will not come under judgement. It's just human nature for people to want to believe that. In fact, whenever anyone dies the assumption is "nearly always" that whoever it was, no matter what he did in this life, is somehow going to a better place. Funeral services are by default pastoral sermons that might be entitled, "salvation by death." But as an old song goes, "it ain't necessarily so." It is best we resign ourselves to the truth that it is the few, not the many, who are truly saved. Who they are and their state in the afterlife is God's business. We leave justice in the hands of the Lord, who does all things perfectly. Let the dead bury the dead, we attend to the living. The right thing to do is to simply "surrender" to the authority of His word in relation to this issue. i.e., in our hearts we ultimately pray that, "Thy will be done in all things O' Lord, not mine."
Psalms 143:10-11

"Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.
Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble."
Can Christians commit suicide? Yes! But do Christians commit suicide? There are many things people neglect that must be considered when evaluating this issue. The first being, a true believer is indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God. That's no small thing to be ignored here. People like to think that people become so depressed and distraught that they see no way out, and so finally kill themselves. But that conveniently presupposes that God is busy elsewhere, or just dwelling there within that person (assuming they're Christian) idly twiddling His thumbs, not helping and not doing anything to prevent their hopelessness. Even many learned theologians have fallen into the snare of underestimating the working of God within us.
Ephesians 2:10

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
God is omnipresent, he's not off doing dishes on the other side of the world while Christians fall into despair and kill themselves. He has promised that he would strengthen us, help us, and not leave us in despair.
The second point here is, suicide would clearly illustrate that the person has forsaken trust in the Lord and has lost faith. Faith is supposed to be the "evidence" of true salvation. It's the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. In faith we take refuge from trials and tribulations "in Him," not in despair. He is the help of those who have faith, and faith is our strength.

Psalms 62:8

"Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah."
Psalms 115:11
"Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.:"
And the third point is that a great many of these suicide victims have been told by (possibly well meaning) Christians ahead of time that, "..while it's not good to commit suicide, people are going to heaven anyway if they're Christian." While this is technically true, it is also a careless and reckless thing to tell anyone who is contemplating suicide. Especially since in their obviously unstable and emotional state, they are highly impressionable. But this is done continually by many Christians under the guise of compassion or "not scaring" them. Murder is a horrible sin, and it should not be spoken of as anything less. There is no word suicide in the bible, it is called taking life or unlawful killing. We call it murder. If someone were to ask a Christian:
"..If I go kill my next door neighbor, would I go to heaven?"
Not one of them would answer, "..while it's not good to commit murder, you are going to heaven anyway if you're a Christian." That's technically true also, but it is also giving a false impression of Christianity. And that is exactly what some people do to those contemplating suicide. Sure, they couch or phrase their words in the fine print of, "but you really shouldn't," yet this is hardly the counsel a Christian should be giving. They're really playing situation politics, where their human compassion clouds the central issue. Is it possible a Christian will kill himself? Yes, it is possible, but it is not only unlikely, it is "very" highly unlikely given all that God has to say in scripture. And that's what they never tell them, because they don't want them to lose hope (if you can believe that). Considering all that scripture says on the issue, faithful Christians should give no one a cozy place to feel comfortable in killing themselves. Because in doing so, you do God (and them) a grievous disservice.
James 4:7-8

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.."
Show them their responsibility, rather than their futility. Show them their duty, rather than paint an unnatural picture of their demise. Show them their future, rather than their failures. And show them that as "true Christians," their eyes should be on the Lord, rather than upon themselves. Because history, as well as statistics, reveal that ninety-nine percent of suicide victims are simply feeling sorry for themselves. Even though today most are blessed far above the average person in the world, they still somehow feel sorry for themselves. This is because they have taken their eyes off Christ, the central figure in Christianity, and placed them on themselves. It is in this pride and vanity that their thoughts are always, "Poor me, why is this always happening to me?" or "why can't I do better?" The faithful Christian minister should counsel them on where the real problem lies. Perhaps the problem is that it really is, "poor Me!" Perhaps their real problem is spiritual riches that they need to acquire.
Revelation 3:17-19

"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
As many as God loves, He rebukes and chastens. And that is what the Church today fails to do. They fail to address the real problem, which is that these "professed Christians" have made themselves the central figure and primary reason for their existence, and not Christ! How is that evidence of true salvation? How are they then destined for the Kingdom when they die? We must exhort them to take their eyes off themselves and the cares of 'this world' and put them on Christ. If they do this, their depression will always lesson because you cannot feel sorry for yourself when you're not thinking of yourself, but others. When we lift our hands in prayer and put our minds on Christ (if He indeed be present within us), He will be our help, our strength, and our refuge in time of weakness, if we pour out our heart before Him. But who is this whom the Lord is not the Rock of their strength?
Psalms 62:7-8

"In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.
Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah."
Ephesians 3:16
"That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;"
There is this intangible within us that is "the mind of Christ," and by it we should understand that we cannot be depressed about something that we are not thinking about. And if we can't stop thinking about it, then what does that say about being in bondage and a slave to what we ought not? But if we take the Biblical principles (something which the Church today has forgotten in their leaning toward social and psychological gospels), we will have our minds on more righteous things than ourselves. Sadly, most theologians today give out secular and humanistic advice, and teach their own personal philosophies about suicide, as opposed to Biblical counsel. But are we going to care about the things of this world, or make the Lord the central figure for solving our problems?
Philippians 4:6-9

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you."
God says be careful [marimnao], meaning anxious, about nothing. We are instructed not to be mindful about all these things. In other words, we are to take our minds off of it and not worry about it. The worries of this world, its wealth, our position in this life are not what the "New Life in Christ" is all about. We give it all up in surrender to become the bondservant of the Lord. We are to do what God commands us, and He will give us all that is necessary that we have peace of mind.

"Where God guides, He provides!"
-WiseManSay
When God says, "think on these things," and "the God of peace shall be with you," it's not just words blowing in the wind to placate us, it's divine unadulterated truth. His words only seem without power when professed Christians ignore the scriptures and begin to give and take advice based upon what seems right in their own eyes rather than what God provides for. If we're true Christians, then we must do it God's way. That means that we do not think on ourselves, or our lot in life, or on all our troubles. We think on the things that God prescribes as whatsoever is Good. Not "poor me, what can I do about poor me," rather we think on, "what can I do today to better serve God." God has promised that if we do, His Peace of mind will be with us. Do we believe it, or do we (as unbelievers) believe that these are, "..just words?" If we think words are cheap, then what makes us think that we are true believers to start with? That is the real question? Just as a friend of mine once declared in a discussion:


"I suppose the question would be whether or not God would allow a believer to commit such a sin. I would tend to think not, but I don't know.."
His was an excellent point. We don't know for sure, but judging from all the Biblical texts, we 'do know' that it is highly unlikely. And so to tell someone that they're going to heaven if they commit suicide (and believe me when I tell you, many do say that) is at best a misnomer. For it assumes far too much. A Christian committing suicide is like dismissing God's promises and retorting that God has put more on me than I can bear in this life. That of course is a direct contradiction to what God has promised He would not do. And it's just another example of scriptures that are constantly ignored in favor of humanistic reasoning.

1st Corinthians 10:13

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will NOT suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
These are the pertinent scriptures that are often avoided by those who substitute psychology, humanism, and philosophy for Biblical counsel. We can understand (though not condone) that grieving loved ones' neglect such verses, but theologians counseling potential victims surely should know better. God says He 'WILL NOT' put upon Christians more than we are able to bear, but only what is common to mankind. That is an 'unambiguous' and clearly written promise, and who is man to call that an overstatement? Who is man that he ignores that promise in his desire to comfort others? Is God a faithful (truthful) God who will not suffer Christians to be tried [peirazo] above what they can bear as He said, or is God someone whose words are untrustworthy and essentially empty? Again, that is the question for the 'serious' Bible Christian. Can we be brought to the very brink of suicide, and God withholds us from committing it? Absolutely! There are lessons to be learned in all our trials. We magnify Christ in our body, whether it be by life or by being martyred in death (Philippians 1:20), but we can be assured that killing ourselves in suicide does not magnify Christ. Rather it shows a lack of faith, trust and strength in him. It doesn't illustrate that we are not our own, it illustrates that we think that we are our own.
1st Corinthians 6:19-20

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
No one can coherently defend a position that killing yourself is glorifying God in our body. On the contrary, praying for deliverance from these type despicable thoughts, and trusting that God will provide all the help that we need is what would be glorifying to God. If you are looking for an excuse to have a clear conscience in committing suicide, then that very fact shows that you contemplating a willful, premeditated act of sin against God. This in itself is evidence of an unchristian spiritual condition. Christians will survive suicidal tendencies by doing either of two things. 1.) They can 'reduce' their mental anguish by laying it down at the cross and leaving it there; 2.) they can 'increase' their ability to cope by strength of Christ in prayer and supplication, placing our eyes upon Him and not themselves. They can take the burden off of themselves by laying it upon Christ, or they can attempt to carry it on their own shoulders. The problem is that so many Christians burden themselves in trying to deal with this alone, or without Christ, who is our help. Each Christian person has the potential to give something to this world, and not one is without value. Even those who are maimed, crippled, mentally deficient, or lying in a hospital bed unable to do anything. God works miracles through the faith of such people, even in others, in ways they may not even be able to imagine.
Romans 11:33-34

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?"
Faith in Christ is an integral part of being a true Christian. And that is what we must not lose sight of, nor minimize in our sorrow or compassion. The light of the body is the eye. So let us exhort them (as Paul did) to keep their eyes on the prize, for this world is not our comfort zone, it is a way station. Often in a person's depression, they forget that this is not our home and we are just strangers and pilgrims here, just passing through. As Christians, we have a job to do and we weren't promised a rose garden in doing it. Indeed what we "were promised" was trails, temptations, tribulations, reviling, being hated, and persecuted (John 16:33, Luke 6:26).
2nd Timothy 3:12

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
So it should not be, "woe is me," it should be "blessed am I." God said blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you (Matthew 5:11). We take up our cross and we follow him. And whosoever won't forsake all for the sake of Christ, is simply not worthy of Him (Matthew 10:37-38). Because in our weakness are we made strong in Christ. These are the things that Christians of our day seem to have forgotten. Their first Love (agape) is to charity, which is the sharing the gospel message with their neighbors. Our weaknesses are not what we despair over, but what we joy in.
2nd Corinthians 12:10

"Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."
God says He won't put upon us more than we can bear, but will with that trial make a way for us to escape that we can bear it. True Christians know that this is a divine truth because God said it, and they believe it. Period! There are many who call themselves Christian who don't really believe that (though they'll never admit it out loud), but then where is their faith, their evidence of true salvation? There is no opt-out suicide clause in the gospel of Christ. And I cannot comprehend how the Holy Spirit of God that was sent to reveal, guide and be a comforter to us, could guide us without moving us to where He wants us to go. Seriously, even a guide dog moves the blind to safety, does he not? God is much more careful of those under His care than a guide dog. And to make the claim that God does not take that kind of action within Christians is to ignore all the pertinent scriptures that clearly say that He does.
Philippians 2:12-13

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
For it is God which worketh in you "BOTH" to will and to do of "His" good pleasure. That Greek word translated do [energeo] is the exact same word that is translated "worketh" there. It means being active, or the one effectually moving us. It's where we get the word "energy." God is telling us in no uncertain terms that He is not an idle passive God, He is a God who works within us and is active moving us "both" to will, and to do (work). That's not what I say, and it's not my humanistic philosophy, that's what the divine God inspired written here. If we're going to ignore all the passages of scripture that we don't like, of course we can believe anything that seems right in our own eyes. We can then come to any unbiblical conclusion if God's word is not the supreme authority. But if we're truly seeking truth and looking to what God wills and declares, then all scripture must be taken into account when formulating doctrines.
2nd Timothy 3:16

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
There are studious theologians who understand these things, but who respond by saying that we can't take this type view because we all "lack trust" in the Lord sometimes. This may be true, but are we to use our own weakness as justification for sin? Just because someone did not trust in the Lord at sometime doesn't equate to, "Christians commit suicide and are still saved." We may have not trusted in the Lord at some time in our life, but we didn't kill ourselves, did we? And the question is, why not? It was by the Grace of God, that's why not! Because we are the temple of God, and God works within the true Christian "both" to will and to do, that's why not. And that is what some people cannot seem to comprehend. God is not idle in all this. We do not reach that point of total despair precisely because of the Grace of God to 'keep' His faithful promise, and not put upon us more than we can bear. Either that, or God was not truthful when He promised that He wouldn't. So again, who are we justified in believing? Psychiatrists, philosophers, new age seminary graduates, or the word of God?
Romans 3:4

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
This world (and I'm talking about the professed Christian world) is so enamoured by their own sense of piety, and perceived ability to solve every problem by thinking it out themselves, that God and His word has become as an afterthought. Things are always about me, or I, or what I do, what I did, What I can't do, how I chose God, How I must move because God won't force me, etc. But the 'I' is the real problem here. It always has been. All is vanity saith the preacher. The truth is, trust and faith in the Lord to carry out His promises are not insignificant ideas. It's an essential part of true Christianity. As we read in Psalms 62, it's reiterated all through scripture.
Psalms 18:2

"The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower."
Psalms 40:4
"Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies."
Psalms 18:35-36
"Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.
Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip."
God watches over our steps and will not let our feet slip. These are the things that faithful ministers of the word tell Christians. Not because they seek to appease them, but because they are true. They don't counsel them that they can murder themselves, show that they have no hope, have no trust in the Lord, and still be saved. That's not preaching "peace, peace, when there is no peace." A Christian committing suicide is forsaking His God and mocking His word and commission. He's throwing in the proverbial towel. In essence he's saying, "I'm tired of the work Christ has given me to do in this world, and I quit!" That's not cruel to say, it's the truth. Often, he has never even been working for Christ in the first place, merely parroting the line that "he is a Christian." But the evidence of a true Christian is that he doesn't faint in well doing, he endures. If we lack these little evidences of true Christianity, what makes us think that we are true Christians?
2nd Corinthians 4:16

"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day."
Renewed day after day because Christ dwells within us. Does He abandon us and fail to renew us when we need it most? God Forbid! That may be the implication in many theologians' words, but it is not according to scripture. He will never leave nor forsake us. Is that truth now become a meaningless phrase because of the importunity of those grieving? As true Christians we wait upon the Lord, we do not throw up our hands in despair, we endure in trial specifically because of the strength of Christ within us. What does the true Christian then have? Does he have belief in renewed strength, or unbelief.
Isaiah 40:31

"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."
Hopelessness, being distraught to the point of murdering oneself, these are not the evidences of a true Christian, they're the evidence of one who has very little (if any) faith, and a shallow relationship with Christ. It's the evidence of those who have taken their eyes off Christ, that is to say, if they ever had them there to begin with. These are those who have run and become weary, and who have walked and faint. Those who have not mounted up with eagle's wings, nor waited upon the Lord. It is those who have sank low in deep despair and have given up all hope. We cannot in all good conscience ignore these things for the sake of saying things that people want to hear. Truth is the light of illumination that inspires change, but without truth there is darkness.
Isaiah 30:10

"Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"
Are we not compassionate in this? For true compassion is in exhorting repentance for sin and the joy in turning away from error. It's not in speaking in deceit smooth things in order to be acceptable or received.
Hebrews 12:11

"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
This is the mind of Christ, this is the reaction to truth by those who have the Spirit of God working within them. Suicide is not justified, it is condemned for the sin that it is. There are even those who will use terminal illnesses to elicit sympathy and confuse the issue. They feel that by bringing up the relatively small group of people who kill themselves because they are physically in tortuous pain, they can feel justified. But even in that, they do ignore the fact that the Christians of old endured much more tortuous pain (they did not have today's drugs). Moreover, they endured literal torture by men far greater and yet would not waver in their faith one inch from the Lord? Choosing rather to be tortured to death, than to say a few words that would save their very lives, or at least bring to an end their torture? Are we to cast this strength in those faithful Christians as an aberration, and the weakness of these Christians who commit suicide as evidence of salvation in Christ? I don't think so! To do so denies all that God declares He will do for us, and it demeans all that the Church that has gone before us has endured. When we lose hope, we loose our anchor. How then are we abiding in Christ? Of all people, professed Christians should know that better than anyone else.
Hebrews 6:19

"Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;"
All these scriptures concerning hope, trust and strength mean nothing to those who choose to ignore them. But to faithful Christians, we know that hope as our anchor is sure and steadfast. We know that to lack this hope, is to be without faith of Christ. Because being without hope effectively means that we have no anchor that grounds us. We have nothing to hold us firmly, just as a ship without anchor is not held from drifting into troublous waters. The question is, can we pretend a ship has an anchor, that has no anchor? Shall we tell Christians without any evidence of faith and hope that they are safe and secure? God instructs us to make our calling and election sure.
2nd Peter 1:8-10

"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
God doesn't say that a person that lacks diligence, godliness, faith, virtue, knowledge, patience, and is not partaking of the divine nature is secure because they have said, "I am a Christian." On the contrary, true Christianity produces evidence of Salvation. Can a Christian commit suicide? Hypothetically, we must say yes, that is certainly a possibility. But is it really likely that they were saved? We must Biblically say, probably not. Because the Lord watches over His people so that they "endure trials" and tribulations, and has appointed us to times wherein we must "fight" the good fight and not faint.
2nd Timothy 4:5-8

"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
He that cannot endure the trials of life, what evidence is there for him to believe that he has been given the Spirit of life to discharge his duty faithfully? Yes, I know this essay won't be received well by many Christians, because it lacks "common" grace. But that's just it. Grace is not common. And truth is not politically correct, popular, commercial, or progressive. It's the same old fundamental basic principles of abiding by the word of God that has stood the test of time, and is not qualified by what society thinks. I'm sure some, without comment on the Biblical, will think this paper is at best, heartless or cruel. Others will chalk it up to my ignorance of the so-called suicide victims, "as if" some mysterious other person was responsible for killing them. For we live in a world where placing responsibility for actions upon those who commit the action, is somehow deemed irresponsible. Yet I learned long ago is that while the truth often hurts, it is through the pain of truth that man most often finds out what sort of creation he is. Are we recreated in Christ, or are we still of the old man, our own authority? What we do with truth will often demonstrate our true spiritual condition.
There are many reasons society says people commit suicide, but it generally falls into one of seven reasons.


They want to hurt someone.
Life is work, so being tired of living, they think this will bring rest.
They are depressed and see no real purpose to life.
Money was their god, thus losing it they lose basis of their faith.
Their heart is broken and they want sympathy (the old, 'they'll be sorry when I'm gone,' thinking).
They want to end their emotional, mental or physical pain.
They are deluded by antichrist into thinking death is a panacea.
The sad thing with most suicides is that the person contemplating it is normally thinking irrationally and may even be delusional. In other words, he or she is in a mental state where they think that there is no hope. They think they have a problem or problems that are totally different than the problems that most of us face. But there is no such thing as a problem that is uncommon. There are no problems too difficult or terrible for the true Christian to bear up under. If there was, God would take it from us because He has "faithfully" promised that (1st Corinthians 10:13). The problems that Christians have are "common" to man, not something that God put on us that we cannot bear. God is watchful and cares for His people.
1st Peter 5:7

"Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you."
All we have to do is lay that problem at the feet of our Saviour and leave it there. But that is the rub. Many do not "really" want to lay it down because they get some satisfaction in feeling sorry for themselves. It's, "Why Me Lord," or "Poor Me," or "I give up." Their crutch is to declare self righteously that everyone else, "just doesn't understand," as if they are the only ones who can ever feel deep despair, or be despondent, or feel as if there is no hope. These are everyday problems common to man, but the Christian should overcome them in Christ. Feeling sorry for ourselves means it's not our fault, or we're not strong enough, or we're not smart enough, etc. These are crutches, the truth is there is no problem that Jesus cannot carry for us and help us to deal with it. The big lie that is believed by these souls, that is told them by family and even by the Church, is that in death they will be in peace. If they really were unsaved (as their action would give evidence they were), then they are not at peace, they have simply moved locations to soon be confronted by a different hell than the one they imagined on earth.
Hebrews 9:27

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
Self-murder doesn't normally appoint one to peace, but to judgement. When we leave this earth in death, the only thing left for anyone not enduring in Christ is to wait in silence for the day they must answer to God for what they have done their body. That would include the last act of murdering yourself. Once dead (and unsaved), your actions go with you as your sins cannot be purged, they are irrevocably attached to you.
Isaiah 5:20

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
Many people call themselves helping, but are actually hurting these souls, because they are judging by what seems right in their own eyes rather than by scripture. The spirit of antichrist is the father of lies. He is that same spirit telling people that their life is not worth living. Certainly we cannot think that it is the Spirit of God putting these thoughts in their head? This is the deceiver that is convincing people that the best thing for them is death. The greatest deceivers are those who tell people whatever they want to hear. If you are sad, feel all alone, or suffering he will tell you death will bring you relief and a better life. If you think that money is the rule by which men judge success, then he'll tell you without it you are worthless and disgraced, and death will take that shame away. If you are tired or weary, then he will tell you that death is the rest where all your problems will disappear because god will understand why you murdered yourself. But it's all a lie. And many of the Church feed right into this lie in "parroting" the line that those who killed themselves are in the kingdom of heaven just because they were members of a Church. This is like saying, if you are saved and are still practicing homosexuality, you will enter heaven. A true statement, but a misleading statement. Or if you are saved, and are still prostituting yourself, you will see the kingdom of heaven. Again, a true statement, but also very misguiding and misleading. Because the evidence of true salvation is a new life, a new desire to do the will of God and not your own, and a new love of obedience and repentance. The evidence of a changed life in Christ is not that we go jump off a bridge. That is evidence of someone who has no faith and no hope, not of someone who possesses the hope and faith of Christ. It is the Devil that calls upon the weakness of people to murder, but it is God who strengthens the true child of God in their suffering. Humanistic reasoning, carnal empathy, and common emotionalism have little to do with God's truth. The Bible is the authority, and as believers we must resist the temptation to judge by what seems right in our own eyes. The child of God, by the Spirit of God, is to be alert to avoid the pitfalls of life by "knowing" Satan's devices.
1st Peter 5:8-10

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
Christ not only authors or establishes our faith, but is the finisher of our faith. He completes us and will not leave us or forsake us in time of trouble. Those who commit suicide have, for all intents and purposes, declared that Christ has left them and they are without strength. But would Christ abandon us when Satan tempts us to take our lives? On the contrary, when Satan tempts us Christ is our bulwark, our fortress, and our strong refuge from such attacks. It is Satan, not God, who encourages such thinking of tempting God in suicide. e.g.,
Luke 4:9-12

"And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
Shall we then tempt the Lord God as Satan attempted to get Christ to commit suicide by throwing Himself off a mountaintop? God forbid! Yes, it is written God protects us. No, that does not mean we can throw ourselves off a mountain and think ourselves saved. i.e., we cannot tempt the Lord our God. And that is exactly what those who contemplate suicide are doing. Testing God. Rather, we must be strong in Christ, sober, and vigilant, because in Him we know our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. We resist him steadfast in the faith, not accepting his evil offer of tempting the Lord God in killing ourselves. Would we ever want to bet our eternal soul on a roll of the dice? God forbid!
In conclusion, the ultimate answer of the question "Can Christians who commit suicide be saved," is left to God. For the state of the souls of men and women after they die is not really the business of those in this life. The Lord is judge those who have passed on. Our Christian work is to "tend to the living." And to the living we say, all evidence is that a 'true' Christian will not commit suicide. And therefore anyone contemplating suicide should look at themselves honestly in the mirror. For it may possibly be evidence that you are not truly saved at all, and therefore still under the wrath of God. Let every soul contemplating suicide think hard on these things. Let them ask why they would abandon God because of hardship? We are sent with a mission and it's not over until God Himself calls us home. It's not over when we decide we don't want to live anymore, because (supposedly) God has placed upon us more than we can bear. This is a direct contradiction to His Promise. He is our Strength, not our burden. If we have a burden we cannot bear, it's because we have not laid that burden down at the feet of Christ. And to be sure, how can one carrying his own burden, get into the Kingdom of Heaven?

May the Lord who is rich in mercy and compassion grant us the ability to see the truth of His holy word, and strengthen us to overcome, when we are in dire straits.

Romans 12:21

"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Amen!

C
CJaKfOrEsT


wal wrote:
In our day, we often hear Christians say things like, "..my friend committed suicide, but I'm sure he was a Christian so now he's in heaven with all his mental pain and anguish gone." But is suicide the universal "pain-killer" that so many professing Christians seem to think that it is, or is this just the wishful thinking of those who mourn the departed?
...
"Thou shalt not kill."
Can a Christian commit suicide, when suicide is the act of murder? In suicide one exalts themselves to the position of God, who has the power to give and to take life.

"...and the award for the longest post in the history of SI goes to..." :-)

Wal,

You probably should realise that a post that long is unlikely to be read through to its conclusion. After a quick scan, I found what you had to say to be a little oversimplified, and speaking out of "your own understanding", albeit laced with verses of Scripture.

The Bible deals with homocide in all of its complexity. It doesn't just simply say, "If you take a life, you are guilty of murder", but it handles the matter more like, "You will be held responsible for shedding blood, so don't make light of it".

There were whole procedures in Mosaic Law for determining whether or not a death was justified. Whole cities were set apart for killers to take refuge, from the families of those they killed, while such a justification was determined. In light of this, may I ask how you see killing in self-defense, or in the defense of others?

I'm going to make a distinction here between someone who is "suicidal" and someone who displays "suicidal tendencies". I make such a distinction, simply to define terms that I wish to use here, and not out of a sense of their being a pathological difference.

The one who displays "suicidal tendencies" is one who has decided that they can't handle life anymore, and that death will bring relief, whereas someone who is "suicidal" is one you has decided that the world will be a better place without them. The suicidal one generally doesn't write "notes", they carefully cover their tracks, and they often take steps to minimise the effect that it will cause on their loved ones. They are far from attention seeking, and for them, suicide is a "courageous" act, and not a "cowardly escape".

Often times they see their life as being a burden on their loved ones, because in spite of their best attempts to control their behaviour, they cannot control themselves. Perhaps they are prone to violent outbursts, or impulsive sexual behaviour, for example. It sounds quite simple to simply exhort these people to "trust Jesus" to wash them whiter than snow, but most often they have had such a pattern of having their trust betrayed, that they are incapable of letting go of control.

The other thing of note, is that from the outside, they appear to be fine specimens of discipleship, if they have trusted Christ for salvation (bear in mind that it is common for people to trust Christ for salvation, but struggle with trusting Him for their sanctification). They tend to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, all the while neglecting their own needs (this is usually how they got to be suicidal in the first place).

Is it possible, in these cases, that suicide can be seen as a desperate act of self-sacrifice? Bear in mind that this type of person is more likely to succeed in their attempt.

On the flip side it could be said, of this type of person, that in "taking the law into their own hands" that they have not trusted God's ability to cleanse them of unrighteousness, and Scripture says that "without faith it is impossible to please God". Perhaps the overriding Scripture could be, "For them that know what to do, and don't do it, to them it is sin" (paraphrase). After all, if we were going to cast a blanket judgement over suicidal people, then people who are yet to "die to self", because they haven't come to the end of their self exertions, would be hell bound if they die, in spite of trusting Christ for salvation. After all, can't we all be guilty of "misguided attempts at obedience"?

S
sermonindex

Here are some websites that are helpful for those who truly desire to research this [i]most[/i] serious question.

Expose the world's theories while you're at it.

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/There-are-NO-Chemical-Imbalances.htm

http://www.coping.org/control/content.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/current22.htm

http://net-burst.net/suicide/suicide.htm

http://www.self-injury.org/dnj.html

http://www.antipsychiatry.org/

http://www.benzo.org.uk/

http://www.breggin.com/

http://www.sntp.net/

The scope of the problem:

-In the last 45 years, suicide rates have increased by 60 percent in some countries.

-Worldwide, suicide ranks among the three leading causes of death among those aged 15-44 years.

-In the year 2000, approximately one million people died of suicide. This represents a global mortality rate of 16 per 100,000 or one death every 40 seconds.

-For every suicide there are at least 20 suicide attempts.

-Self-inflicted injuries represented 1.8 percent of the global burden of disease in 1998 and are expected to increase to 2.4percent in 2020.

-Suicide rates among young people have been increasing and they are currently the group at highest risk in one third of all countries (developed and developing).

-At least 100,000 adolescents die by suicide every year.

Figures from the World Health Organization.

Man was born with a conscience. Secular Psychiatrists have found that "guilt" leads to neurosis and disorders. Research the causes of "mental problems" and see if our moral decline has not also affected the rate of suicides.
You could save many lives with His Word alone, not mixed with humanistic Psychology.

Do the research that saves lives.

If we would only get it straight on this, we may be saving our own lives from the chances of suicide down the last-days road. Or preserve our own sanity, at the least.

S
sermonindex

Confessions of a (once)suicidal maniac.

I may be wrong, but I believe some people are born with a predisposition to depression and suicide. My first encounter with such a thought was when my cat was run over and killed. My mother explaining that 23 Skidoo was now with Jesus (parents PLEASE don’t lie to your children about such things).

I was the 2nd of 6 children, in a home where girls were thought to be nothing. You know, something to be traded off later for two horses and a cow. Born with a learning disability, who could not read, or write or verbally express myself, I lived in a private world all my own. I also lived in a family where children were NOT allowed to express themselves. My Father grew up in an orphanage during the depression that sounded like a reform school. He was 6 and his brother 4 was left there by their mother who couldn’t take care of them, and whose father had died. They were beaten and abused, with scars still to show.

This Church run orphanage lived so strictly by the LAW of Moses that my Father grew up HATING God. His Brother died in that Orphanage, being denied his medication as punishment (he had childhood Diabetes). After my Father graduated from High School, he was offered a scholarship to West Point, not able to afford a uniform (his only part he needed to contribute) but instead went into WWII. After returning ended up at MIT.

My Father raised us the way he was raised. Little no-body‘s, who would grow up to be no-body’s unless of coarse we all made straight A’s, as he had, and went to college. These lectures lasting hours and hours were so engrained that by my 3rd grade, I was walking home from school and so horribly depressed, I remembered 23 Skidoo, and nearly threw myself in front of a truck to find that same peace. The beginning of a life long struggle with suicidal thoughts AND suicide attempts.

Well, I won’t go into all my life here, but just to show you never know who you are dealing with, talking to, or from what and where they came. We grow up to become adults carrying the same baggage placed on us from childhood.

No one in the world, absolutely no-one could help me, except that WONDERFUL COUNCELOR, and PRINCE OF PEACE, who picked me up, and held me in hands as fine and soft and tender as pure silk. I never even knew what LOVE was until I met the Lord. He showed me His Loving - Kindness, Tender Mercies, and Justice……( my sin nature).

What is interesting, and those of you who are working with people, that a victim has a difficult time seeing themselves a sinner. They see themselves as a victim of sinners, sinned against.

Growing up, I must have gotten saved more then 17 times. And then again and again at every Revival. SAVE Me, was my heart’s cry. I lived in this misery until I heard the conclusion of the Gospel I had never heard before…Romans 6-8. I never knew I was to be a New Creation. I thought God was suppose to FIX everything , Fix me. Me, Me, Me, Myself and I sure got FIXED. Not the way I thought.!!!!!

Well, that was nearly 30 years ago, and the greatest danger in the Church today is the psychobabble being mixed in with the Gospel. Psychobabble wants to FIX your old self, draw you back into your old self and old sin nature, and try to fix it. The greatest LIE from the pits of Hell. Our old Adam nature will never be FIXED.


AMAZING GRACE will ALWAYS be my song of Praise,
For it was GRACE that bought my LIBERTY,
I'll never know just why He came to Love Me so,
He Looked beyond my faults and saw my need!

Well, that’s all for now.

wITH Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

F
freedbyjc

Excellet post bt Krispy in another thread



I guess this could fall under those threads that have been active lately concerning how the Christian can be perfect and without sin. The bottom line reasoning behind this is that they believe we lose our salvation everytime we commit a sin. How can this be?

I believe a believer could commit suicide and still be saved. Sometimes depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Depression is not always a sign of someone being out of relationship with God. I dont suffer from depression, so I'm not even going to pretend to understand it... nor will I be judge and jury.

But suffice it to say that we dont lose our salvation every time we stumble and fall. And I think suicide is awful and horrible, but it is no worse than any other sin.

Krispy

Excellent thought brother...

S
sermonindex

freebyjc and Krispy -

Though I doubt that Krispy had asked to be quoted here on this thread - I must ask one question - do you have a Doctorate in Psychiatry or brain chemistry research or are either of you neuro-scientists ?

I've posted the evidence - in part only - of all the Psychiatrists that are coming out against this "theory" of "chemical imbalances".
These are those Psychiatrists who are true Humanitarians - both Christian and secular - who see "what" is motivating this theory --- motivations such as down right lies - laziness - gullibility - and big money for themselves 'the easy way' and for the Big Pharma Industry.

For Christians to quote the world, when the world is in the final Culture of death mode now is unpardonable with this subject.

freebyjc - do you have any idea what an unstable or just plain "unhappy" Young Christian could do with your words and Krispy's [b]?[/b]

Have you even bothered to read this whole thread - or is pushing unconditional eternal security more important here than the lives of God's creation ?

Please All - read the posts of others - do the research from the links given - before any of you reactivate the "excuse" for any who may read posts like yours to Kill themselves.

This is the only discussion on this entire Message Board that may help someone to decide to kill themselves. This is on you now and whomever else posts flippantly to this discussion.

And by the way - the statistics 'still' show - that Psychiatrists still have one of the highest rates of suicide per Profession.
Thank you for any consideration on this.

Would Paul or the First Church Preach what you have posted ?

K
kathleen1

You made many excellent points in your post, especially concerning the Word of God is the judge, not our feelings, and desires for those who have done this, and yes we must get our eyes off self and on Christ. I took the time to read what you posted it in its entirety, which I felt I should as I had to respond to some things you said.

Quote:
Can Christians who commit suicide be saved? Yes! We know it's possible because all of the sins of God's Children were accounted for in Christ's "finished" work on the cross. Therefore, if a true believer (the keyword being, true) were to somehow get to the point where God (for His own purposes) abrogated His normal way of strengthening and upholding Christians in time of trial allowing him to lose all hope so that they did somehow commit suicide, then that sin would surely not keep them out of heaven. Because "all" the sins of the elect were paid for in Christ Jesus. No sin that a true Christian could commit could keep him from the love of God."

If what you said is true, then you make God a liar. In Eze 33:18-19 God said if the righteous turned from his righteousness and committed iniquity (to sin knowing it is wrong), he shall die in that sin. If he turns from his wickedness and does righte he shall live. In Eze 3:21 God says their righteousness shall not deliver them in the day of their transgression. In other words, if they die in sin, they have no hope. And your "what if" God didn't strengthen and uphold Christians in time of trial so they lost hope- is absolutely contradiction of Scripture. Yes, He paid the price for our sins on the cross. But where does He say we can go on sinning and get by? He doesn't. That's why we must repent and turn from sin. That is not liscense to continue in sin. You said sin could not keep us from the love of God?

God says in Isa 59:1-2 The Lord's hand is not short that it cannot save nor his ear heavy that it cannot hear but your iniquities have separated between you and your God and your sins have hid his face from you and he will not hear. Hab 1:13 tells us His eyes are so pure He will not even look on iniquity. Since He made provision for sin, He will not let deliberate sin pass by unjudged. To do so would negate all the suffering and shame Christ bore on the Cross. Not only that, it would make a mockery of Christ's death and suffering. Jesus also said in The Gospel, "Take heed, watch and pray that ye be found worthy to escape the things coming on this earth..." that does not suggest to me that He will wink at sin. He commands us to repent.

You mentioned Samson, and his death. You are talking about a man who was set apart for God, but was not satisfied with being set apart for GOd, so he had to play around with worldly women, and yielded to lust, and betrayed the secret of his strength which was his consecration to God-his hair was only a symbol of this, and he, like Esau, traded it off to satisfy his lusting flesh. He was a compromised Christian, who had the anointing of God and lost it playing with the world. He lost his sight, and his strength, just as Christians today who play with the world lose their spiritual sight and discernment, and strength to resist the pull of the flesh and the devil and the world, when they mess around with it. Samson's death was one of vengeance on his enemies, and he died in bitter failure. Yes, I believe he could have repented and asked God to remember him, much like the theif on the cross beside Christ. So, where exactly does God get glory out of this man's life? His life was recorded as a warning to those who would take the power and anointing and holiness of God lightly and think they can play with the world and have God, too. Yes, he was included in the heroes of faith, but his is not a pattern anyone should seek to follow.

You said:
Nevertheless, "if" a true Christian should in a instant of weakness decide to drive his car off a cliff, or shot himself, that instant of bad judgment would certainly not keep him out of the Kingdom. Because true salvation means that all of his sins were forgiven, and being faithful to scripture, understanding the sovereignty of God, and the doctrine of eternal security, we can come to no other conclusion"if" a true Christian should in a instant of weakness decide to drive his car off a cliff, or shot himself, that instant of bad judgment would certainly not keep him out of the Kingdom. Because true salvation means that all of his sins were forgiven, and being faithful to scripture, understanding the sovereignty of God, and the doctrine of eternal security, we can come to no other conclusion.

You mentioned on down in your post about not tempting God, and you were on the right track there, but you send a mixed message with statements like the above quote. The eternal security doctrine is bull from the cesspool Satan calls a mind. To think that my Jesus suffered so horribly and so awfully on the cross for the sins of man, and they would take it that lightly, and presume with such arrogance He would forgive such is to make light of His death on the cross. It is bad..:-x and that is putting it mildly. If a Christian is deceived by the devil and gives in to his lies and commits suicide, by car, by gun, by whatever means, they have cut themselves off from God for eternity, just like Adam and Eve were cut off spiritually when they disobeyed and were put out of the presence of God. Those who fall for the lie of the devil and end their life, have believed a lie...they die in sin, and they did not receive the love of the truth.(2 Th 2:10) That's just a KJV way of saying they didn't believe the truth, they believed the lie, and each one has its own set of consequences. One life, one death. The "doctrine" of eternal security causes people to think they can live anyway they want and be saved, it tends to cause people to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness. NO ONE who has a true understanding of God would DARE sin lightly. That is what makes the "Left Behind" movies so dangerous-they teach this heresy. You can live however and choose Christ after the rapture...WRONG. You miss it, because you can't live for HIM now, with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH, and the fellowship of the church, how will you stand for Him when the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth, and brings conviction and convincing of sin is gone? How will anyone know right from wrong? THEY WON'T.

Quote:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
Self-murder doesn't normally appoint one to peace, but to judgement. When we leave this earth in death, the only thing left for anyone not enduring in Christ is to wait in silence for the day they must answer to God for what they have done their body. That would include the last act of murdering yourself. Once dead (and unsaved), your actions go with you as your sins cannot be purged, they are irrevocably attached to you.
Isaiah 5:20

Okay, that I agree with, but your post advocates yes you can commit suicide and enter heaven, and no you can't. So, for the sake of those who read it, or part of it, I had to respond. ANY one who teaches eternal security, making allowances for sin, teaches heresy. The only allowance is the blood, God help us not take that lightly. The Word of God, especially the New Testament is FULL of warnings and take heeds...is it God's fault if we don't and in a moment of weakness disregard everything and end it all? We can't expect Him to change His Word on those reasonings. He will not do it and the devil knows it that is why he delights in driving people to despair and such drastic measures. HE knows what will happen. God help us open our eyes and start praying for those who are being plagued by this evil thing for their deliverance! If we belong to the King, we do not have to put up with the devil's works because they were destroyed by the Son of God. We must examine ourselves and make sure we haven't opened the door to the devil, and if we haven't, then we can stand on the authority of God's Word, and pray and God will move! After they are gone it's too late and nothing we say will change anything.

S
sermonindex

Kathleen, The Lord has blessed you with a sharp mind and you use it for Him. God has blessed.

Before this turns into another debate on the OSAS doctrine, let me just say that - this subject is affected by the security issue - no doubt - but this is where due caution must be exercised.
The arguments that take place on all Forums over the eternal security issue drone on forever and will until He returns, but this issue of taking a life - any life - should not even enter Any Christian's mind to cause the [i]vulnerable[/i] to take that route.
God help us all to do all within our power to never say or write one word that would cause the VULNERABLE to have excuse to do that final act.
May God make us all extreme pro-lifers in these last days, when life will be all but tolerable even for the Elect.
We don't even know what our own response will be to extreme persecution, torture, watching our family taken from us, seeing fellow believers killed and so forth.
If we fill our minds NOW with strengthening Bible-Only, we may not only save another's life from this No-guarantees act, but even our own.
We should read of and fill our spirit's with Scripture about the "Overcomers".

It should NEVER be posed as an option for anyone because of that lack of guarantee.
There are those who even say that Saul and Judas "were saved in the end".
Oh Lord - what have we come to as "Bible-Believers" when this could be taught ?

[u]There is no-guarantee that a person will Not go to Hell for murdering themselves.[/u] Period.

NO ONE can [u]Guarantee[/u] Heaven to anyone who decides to kill themselves - so we all need to and should push Biblical Pro-'Life' all the more, especially as we see That Day approaching and know 'what' will Precede That Day --- which is Much. What we do with this topic now, will affect us all in the not too distant future and the lives of our children and loved ones.
Thank you!

S
sermonindex

do you have a Doctorate in Psychiatry or brain chemistry research or are either of you neuro-scientists ?

freebyjc - do you have any idea what an unstable or just plain "unhappy" Young Christian could do with your words and Krispy's ?

Well... this is why in my post I stated the following:

[i]"I dont suffer from depression, so I'm not even going to pretend to understand it... nor will I be judge and jury."[/i]

But of course, you overlooked that.

Have you even bothered to read this whole thread - or is pushing unconditional eternal security more important here than the lives of God's creation ?

If you want to serve a God who dumps us when we fail, and who lied when He said He would never leave or forsake us... be my guest. But as for me and my house...

The only thing I "push" is the truth of scripture.

Please All - read the posts of others - do the research from the links given - before any of you reactivate the "excuse" for any who may read posts like yours to Kill themselves.

In your hysterical haste [i](and I dont mean hysterical as in funny, I mean shrill...)[/i] to want to correct others while showing off your writing skills, you are forgetting to make sense. No one is encouraging others to kill themselves, and for you to even suggest that that is what I am doing is extremely repulsive to me.

Would Paul or the First Church Preach what you have posted ?

Uhmm... well, actually... they did. Sooooo... the answer is "yes". They did teach that we dont lose our salvation every time we fail God.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

Kathleen, The Lord has blessed you with a sharp mind and you use it for Him. God has blessed.

Before this turns into another debate on the OSAS doctrine, let me just say that - this subject is affected by the security issue - no doubt - but this is where due caution must be exercised.
The arguments that take place on all Forums over the eternal security issue drone on forever and will until He returns, but this issue of taking a life - any life - should not even enter Any Christian's mind to cause the [i]vulnerable[/i] to take that route.
God help us all to do all within our power to never say or write one word that would cause the VULNERABLE to have excuse to do that final act.
May God make us all extreme pro-lifers in these last days, when life will be all but tolerable even for the Elect.
We don't even know what our own response will be to extreme persecution, torture, watching our family taken from us, seeing fellow believers killed and so forth.
If we fill our minds NOW with strengthening Bible-Only, we may not only save another's life from this No-guarantees act, but even our own.
We should read of and fill our spirit's with Scripture about the "Overcomers".

It should NEVER be posed as an option for anyone because of that lack of guarantee.
There are those who even say that Saul and Judas "were saved in the end".
Oh Lord - what have we come to as "Bible-Believers" when this could be taught ?

[u]There is no-guarantee that a person will Not go to Hell for murdering themselves.[/u] Period.

NO ONE can [u]Guarantee[/u] Heaven to anyone who decides to kill themselves - so we all need to and should push Biblical Pro-'Life' all the more, especially as we see That Day approaching and know 'what' will Precede That Day --- which is Much. What we do with this topic now, will affect us all in the not too distant future and the lives of our children and loved ones.
Thank you!

S
sermonindex

I've posted the evidence - in part only - of all the Psychiatrists that are coming out against this "theory" of "chemical imbalances".

I think we also need to take a look at the percentage of Ritalin being prescribed. Do you know 95 % is in America!!!!! Does that make you wonder? Now they are finding out these original children now young adults are having children with birth defects.


Why, when watching TV are so many commercials PUSHING DRUGS? Then they have the audacity to piggyback another commercial for children to "JUST SAY NO". ????!!!!????


The power of suggestion is very dangerous.
We as Christians need to be very careful what we say, and in the end, it is not our OPINION of whether a person will go to Heaven or Hell that someone in so much distress needs to hear.

They need to hear the Gospel.

S
sermonindex

Suicide. Adolescent suicide has increased 400% in 30 years. The United States has the highest youth homicide and suicide rates among the 26 wealthiest nations in the world. American Academy of Pediatrics

This is an interesting article concerning Ritalin and childhood suicide.

One in 30 youngsters 5 to 19 years old is using Ritalin. AMA. Adolescent depression has increased 1000% in 40 years.

http://www.wisconsinchristiannews.com/view_details.php?story_id=1073&PHPSESSID=8f07e2d76974965761

S
sermonindex

Katy-did wrote:
[b]I think we also need to take a look at the percentage of Ritalin being prescribed. Do you know 95 % is in America!!!!! Does that make you wonder? Now they are finding out these original children now young adults are having children with birth defects.


Why, when watching TV are so many commercials PUSHING DRUGS? Then they have the audacity to piggyback another commercial for children to "JUST SAY NO". ????!!!!????


The power of suggestion is very dangerous.

We as Christians need to be very careful what we say, and in the end, it is not our OPINION of whether a person will go to Heaven or Hell that someone in so much distress needs to hear.

They need to hear the Gospel.

Suicide. Adolescent suicide has increased 400% in 30 years. The United States has the highest youth homicide and suicide rates among the 26 wealthiest nations in the world. American Academy of Pediatrics

This is an interesting article concerning Ritalin and childhood suicide.

One in 30 youngsters 5 to 19 years old is using Ritalin. AMA.

Adolescent depression has increased 1000% in 40 years.[/b]

http://www.wisconsinchristiannews.com/view_details.php?story_id=1073&PHPSESSID=8f07e2d76974965761

Good posts Katy-did.
If we only could see what this new generation is facing. Children being drugged even without their parent's permission is the battle right now.
Another on Ritalin from off the link given earlier along with yours, proves we are a totally different culture/society and it's crept up on some unawares.
http://www.breggin.com/ritalin.html

What I think of is, those who may have just made some sort of mental assent to the Gospel and have not really come to a true saving faith or any unsaved wanting to know the "Christian view", that they may act on later. If they are reading that they can still get to Heaven, what shall happen to them ?

I worry a lot about the young and old in this land and I appreciate posts that do see things in light of this new age that we're living in, where fabricated "medical science" is looked up to and even beyond what is written in the Word.
Satan wants to kill them before we do have the chance to win them to Jesus.

How did the last 6000 years worth of God's people manage without what is shelled out now ?
The rates of insanity are rising. How are we doing so far "medically"?
We've come a long way from the 'Leave it to Beaver and Father Knows Best' days.
Thankful for you posting these statistics, so we can compare them to what is being taught to our children and grandchildren today.
We can focus our prayers on this issue and pray that no one will ever consider these dangerous alternatives, nor suggest them to the children.
There are so many true stories out there of what a Loving God can do, to make life worth living and to it's fullest and bind up the broken hearted and set the captives free.
I believe it should be a part of our Revival prayers, so there are some left and with a mind to Witness to.
Thank you!

S
sermonindex

What I think of is, those who may have just made some sort of mental assent to the Gospel and have not really come to a true saving faith or any unsaved wanting to know the "Christian view", that they may act on later. If they are reading that they can still get to Heaven, what shall happen to them ?

He_Reigns: That was my original intention in posting part of my testimony here. I'm not sure anyone grasped the meaning of what I was saying. You captured it in your above statement.

1/2 the Gospel WILL NOT save anyone, and I was tormented for years about why just going to Heaven after I died was suppose to be the whole of the Good News.


Well, here are scripture below THAT IS the GOOD NEWS the WHOLE Gospel teaches.

Compare and look at the flesh and the works of the flesh. Also consider ***20Idolatry, witchcraft***

Idolatry is the worship of false gods (including self) or anything other than the ONE TRUE GOD.

Witchcraft and Sorcery work through drugs.
http://www.letusreason.org/Curren10.htm


When we come to God through Jesus Christ, identify with Him in death and resurrection life, OUR FLESH nature, now rendered inoperative through the quickening power of the Life of Christ in us has overcome our flesh. But we must
KNOW this is true - OBEDIENCE of faith
RECKON with this truth - OBEDIENCE of faith
YIELD to this Truth - OBEDIENCE of faith
Romans 12:1&2
Romans 16:24-27

Romans 6-8 is the very heart and soul of our Christian walk and life. Yet, how many, after getting saved want to put you back under the "Law" of sin and death? GRACE is the Law of LIBERTY, LIFE AND PEACE IN CHRIST. We are a NEW Creation IN CHRIST. Christ IN YOU has overcome the world, the flesh and sin. We live by the faith of Christ in us. *****Galatians 2:20&21

How many, who are deny the message of the Gospel, "I am crucified with Christ, No longer I but Christ in me"...............resort to being slain in the spirit? This TOO is a strange phenomenon not in scripture. This IS witchcraft. Anyone in scripture who was SLAIN (meaning DEATH) and fell BACKWARD was a sign of that person being evil. Have you ever wondered too, that the place these people are being touched to FALL BACKWARD is on their hand or forehead! Same place as the mark of the beast.

But as you see, being slain in the spirit is not necessary to those who are Born Again according to the Scriptures. These verses ARE God's Word and must be obeyed by Born Again Christians who were Born Again according to the Scriptures.

Others who may call themselves Born Again may not necessarily be.

Compare Romans 6-8 to the scripture below.

Galatians 5:
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[b][color=CC0000]24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.[/color][/b]

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

With Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did

F
freedbyjc

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. — John Keats
[i]
2 Timothy 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Ephesians 5:17
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

Romans 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
[/i]

S
sermonindex

Katy-did, Thank you for your posts. I was touched by your testimony and it is amazing where you've brought yourself despite all that you had been through. That is a testimony of victory and I and many others here, I'm sure, could give stories of broken homes and heart-aches, yet Jesus saved not only our souls but our minds.

You've added a lot to this thread and brought in other angles of these last days that will affect us all in one way or another.

If I may quote just a section this time:
"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


Thank you for your sensitivity toward all souls.

S
sermonindex

I was touched by your testimony and it is amazing where you've brought yourself despite all that you had been through.

He_ Reigns, That wasn't the response I was looking for, as I haven't brought myself anywhere but to the foot of the CROSS.

To God be the Glory!! and NOTHING but NOTHING is too hard or difficult for our Mighty God and Savior. NOTHING!


HERE IS:

The Good News of Salvation -the prophecy of the Coming Lord and Savior.......
Isaiah 61

1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

Luke 4:17-19
17And there was delivered unto him( Jesus) the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.


1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;


2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

2 Corinthians 4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For the ****preaching of the CROSS**** is to them that parish foolishness, but to usward who are saved IT IS THE POWER OF GOD!

With Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did


S
sermonindex

Katy-did, I don't mind saying thank you serveral times to anyone that brings the message of Life to the broken hearted and points them to Jesus Who sets the 'captive' free.

My post read:

Katy-did, Thank you for your posts. I was touched by your testimony and it is amazing where you've brought yourself despite all that you had been through. That is a testimony of victory and I and many others here, I'm sure, could give stories of broken homes and heart-aches, yet Jesus saved not only our souls but our minds.

You've added a lot to this thread and brought in other angles of these last days that will affect us all in one way or another.

If I may quote just a section this time:
"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


Thank you for your sensitivity toward all souls.


Yes, by freewill you brought yourself to the Cross instead of to the grave.
That is the victory we pray and hope for everyone.

Thank you again.

S
sermonindex

what a tough question, very complex issue. One must be sympathetic to the loved one who lost someone to suicide. The last thing they want to hear is condemning answer. I think the first thing is move this experience to the loved one of the deceased to spiritual things, see about there faith. Use this as a way to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. But, then that could raise the question and possibly will open the door to whether or not this person is in hell or heaven. very tough. Sadly they can't do anything about this person, it is to late! but the other person or family member is still here. And their external state is at stake. The enemy will use this event against them, to say how can a loving God allow this to happen. Ten out of ten people will die, this must be stressed to everyone and also the family of the deceased.

S
sermonindex

Good post reformer. Have had the thought of those "left behind" deep in my heart since first seeing this thread.
Yes, what you've shared is the best course of action for the Surviving "victims" - those who are left behind to suffer through all the "what ifs" and the thousand other tormenting questions that could potentially plague those who had a loved one or even just an acquaintance, who took their own life.
The depth of pain that may never fully leave those victims that are left behind that may be haunted with memories and dreams and tears is something we all should keep in mind.
These may be the ones we need to focus on, so that those who may read what we've written, would think again before causing this extreme pain to anyone who they will be leaving behind after they kill themselves.
The statistics were posted a few times on this thread and that alone shows us that young and old alike are not receiving the appropriate answers. And "we" are the only ones who hold the Words of The Creator in our hands.

Yes, the best ministry that they could use this tragedy for - is to do all within their power to prevent another soul from suicide, so that another bunch of victims are not suffering the same grief that they have gone through, because of a lost loved one to this final act.

Every post I've done was with this very much and forefront in my mind. The pain and questions that this act leaves the family and friends and even acquaintances with.

Preaching Love and Hope in Christ should be our ministry to heal the broken hearted and set the captives free.
To speak all that leads to life and pray that our words may touch anyone that is contemplating the thought of ending their own life - that affects many more people than we may know until we see Him.

D
dohzman

I think Bunyon (pilgrams progress) had it right when he depicted ole' christian stuck in the giant despairs prison all defeated and downcast daily being beaten by that gaint, until his companion Hope reminded him of the key ---promise---he had hanging around his neck which could unlock that prison door. Most peole have never experienced what has been termed the dark night of the soul, but it is real and some never come through it. Maybe the church and pulpit isn't where it needs to be to help such people. The bigger question one should ask is where does the church go from such an experience without opening the door for those who may be in the depths of depression. And while I have some insights on this topic I will only say that death is wrong, it is the last enemy of God to be destroyed. I see death as a real Person, if you will accept that. One to be battled against, for the saint who has Jesus in thier hearts, we wait No death, only sleep, where we awake to life eternal where all things have been made right. To such as would contemplate suicide I can only encourage you just as John the Baptist did, "Behold the Lamb of God". The rest will take care of it self.

S
sermonindex

Dohzman:

I loved your reply.
Our life In Christ is a journey that only BEGINS at the Cross.

I love David's words when he said,
though I make my bed in hell, YOU ARE THERE, and though I am on the top of a mountain...YOU ARE THERE.

Through our dark moments of trials and tribulations, we learn to walk by faith and not sight Our journey appears to begins downward, but the end result is standing on top of Mt Sion, Victorious.

The problem with what is being preached today, prosperity etc, is the complete opposite of our True LIVING walk with the Lord.

Yea, though I walk walk through the valley of the shaddow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou are with me...Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me.

We're all( Born Again Christians)brought through that valley. This is a truth that must be preached.

With Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did

PS: .( Added/ Edited for Content) We also learn not to walk by our emotions. Emotions are deceiving, and can be deadly. Fear is the most horrible emotion, but we have not been given a spirit of fear, but of Peace, Love and a sound mind. Perfect LOVE cast out fear, and we are being Perfected in God's Love. 1st John. To a Christian, The fear of the Lord is a wonderful thing, not to be feared. The fear of the Lord is the beginning od wisdom.

Don't live by emotions, circumstances, and most of all...never, never , never ,never look back...always look ahead, keeping your eyes on Jesus.( Philippians 3) He knows where He is taking you..even if you don't. One morning you will wake up and see a tiny light at the end of a tunnel, and say...WOW, I'm beginning to understand. He gives us those little glimpses of Heaven and Glory. ( 1 Corinthians 2)

Those who want to get nuked through some fast food drive through have no idea what you are being cheated out of. We thing everything is to be microwaved in an instant, or a 40 day purpose that leaves you(forgetting in 40 days as well) in the end with no purpose at all.

Your life in Christ can't come through Marketing schemes, Juiced in a blender, or getting slain in the Spirit. It comes through a totally surrendered life. Life comes out of death...that is why it's called Resurrection Life.

Hebrews 13:20&21
A Covenant Promise!

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 86 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate