Spiritual Gifts! Prophecy

Why cause confusion regarding the gift of prophecy and the office of the Prophet?
L. W.

lwpray wrote:

Why cause confusion regarding the gift of prophecy and the office of the Prophet?
L. W.

there are much confusion about the two, and a lot of mixing

Please, dear friend, begin to develop the issue - for the profit of the inquiring heart.

here is an interview with Art Katz.... it expresses this much more clearly then my poor words...

A: How would you describe prophetic ministry?

Art: Well, there is a whole book on this subject on our website. It took me five days at Youth With A Mission in Lausanne years ago to begin an assessment of what the word ‘apostolic’ meant—and they are very similar. ‘Prophetic’ is expressing God’s own heart and perceiving things as He Himself sees them, a certain mode of being, living, a certain jealousy of an intense kind, a certain concern for His glory, His Name, His honor, a certain seeing through appearances to the reality beneath. Had you been with me Sunday morning, you would have seen this demonstration. I walked into a church, and I was instantly uncomfortable. After I attended their prayer meeting in the side room, where the discomfort was not lessened, I came into the sanctuary and watched the worship team and the pastor performing. When I got up, my first word was, “What would you think if out of your very congregation, some young man or adolescent went berserk and shot up his high school and his teachers?” I said, “You’re in an environment conducive to that conduct in your unreality. You’re forming the nexus out of which that kind of aberration can take place,” and I did not lighten up or let up. I went right on through, breaking down the facade and its appearances, confronting them with the truth of their conditions, and the pastor, after I finished, had the temerity to come up and take the microphone and continue in the same droll, mealy-mouthed way that I had identified before as being false. I could not believe it, and I could not bear it; I got up and had to tell him, “You have said enough, much too much.” In fact, if he had continued, then I really would have caused a scene. As it happened, we had lunch with this pastor and another family—the brother who hosted the lunch is here now—and when we had lunch together, I said, “You need to go before the congregation tonight and apologize for continuing in the same mode that God had exposed as being false and ask their forgiveness for seeking to go back to ‘business as usual’ after this corrective word from God.” But I do not believe that he did it.

In this confrontation, you have a small picture of what it means to be prophetic: fearless, uncompromising, no concern for how one will be regarded in terms of reputation, no question of the jealousy of God for reality to address the thing that is quickened, where there is no other thought or message that can be considered but that thing that is pulsating in your heart because of your identification and union with God. It does not always take that form, but frequently it will. So that is prophetic, to speak for God out of the sense of God Himself, without concern for what the effect will be, whether it has been received or rejected, or how you personally will be received. In fact, I thought to myself, “Surely, if ever I qualified for being stoned, it’s now.” I was bringing down the whole house, the whole thing that had had too long a history of deceit and religious hypocrisy. They either had to stone me or fall before the Lord as being the word of truth. I think many in the congregation did, but the pastor himself was so rooted in that system that he continued to babble and had to be reprimanded.

Dear Gary,

One does not become a prophet by being used by the Holy Spirit in the realm of the gift of prophecy.

One does not become a prophet by being used by the Holy Spirit in the realm of the gift of prophecy.

...although it may well be part of God's preparation for such a work.

Relevant seeing and speaking
By Lars Widerberg

Reading: Isaiah 1:2-3.

This is prophecy: Heaven demands an open ear, an open heart.
This is prophetic speaking: A conclusive word, a statement of eternal character sent to cause and provoke man to thinking.
This is prophecy: Heavens stand in awe, the earth trembles.
This is prophetic speaking: A word relevant enough to attract the attention of the realms temporal.
This is prophecy: Words containing eternal values sent into a time/space setting to instruct, to divide right from wrong, to bring justice and dignity.

This is prophetic seeing and speaking: Something seen as with the eyes of the Lord regarding a time/space issue, words sent from Heaven to earth, to men, to be considered by men in relation to the state of affairs of common men. Prophecy is more than many things a matter of thinking, a matter of generating thinking. Prophecy is reality spoken in a relevant manner into a setting in which matters of authenticity are held in esteem by men whose hearts are warm and open to the things of the Lord and whose intelligence stays at working temperature for the sake of relevancy and sobriety. Prophecy defines itself by a clever approach to present reality, it speaks real words to a real world. It is sent to bring a certain sense of ultimacy, it challenges, its directness is at times offensive for the sake of alerting a dulled conscience. Prophecy is Heaven sent to Earth.

Fundamental to ministry is its priestly character. It is forever set to approaching, ascent, a drawing near, an “unto God”. It calls upon the other to come close, to come alongside, to enter into fellowship. The man made ready for ministry embarks on a route along which he will find altars exclusively prepared for him, only for him. This route directs itself away from ministerial matters, from routines and an official approach to fellowmen. It aims at reconciliation, at a recovery of values lost. Its aim is that of bringing life, of reviving, of returning to first things, of restoring to a state of ultimacy. Each aspect of the temporal and the ephemeral encounters a challenge in the presence of a priestly mind. The prophetic function appears and operates within this framework.
The prophet is to be found where people are straying. Priests and intercessors approach each other at the nexus of a sinful people for the sake of justice and reconciliation. A prophet appears in the day of deepest trouble to recover what is lost. A prophet is a man of eternal strength in days of great shaking. Prophets are moulded and fostered for days of apostasy. His message is birthed at the threshold of the temple. His approach to life is intrinsically other, but he is still a man – sensitive to the things which constitutes a man.
Such a man was Isaiah – sources indicate that he might have been a cousin of the king. This is the prophet, a man of the temple, a man of the royal court. This is a prophet, a man among men, but a man who saw God and lived.

The priestliness of this man and his message will not pass unnoticed while reading his book with an open mind. Each statement, each and every word conveys a sense of ultimacy. The prophet, the priestly mind captures the brokenness of the Almighty. The prophet ministers unto God in that he allows himself to become a vessel for divine travailing. “My people doth not consider.” “My people do not care to think.” “This is a people lost to disorder and unholiness because of their unwillingness to assess and reason.”
Prophetic work begins in reflection. Prophetic work consists of thinking and pondering, it is directed by a conscience on high alert, it contains comparison and weighing, it defines itself as an intense search for righteousness and justice. Prophetic work is a painful relating to something which is lost. The work of the prophet is one of recovery. It invites a man to a worthy striving for the vindication of the Lord.

“Holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus”. Hebr 3:1.
Everything, literally everything, in the priestly dimension is bound up with things eternal. Priestly ministry, prophetic ministry, any ministry is related to a seeing, a considering of things eternal. The heavenly calling positions the man who dares to respond in immediate relation to the throne and to the Lamb in the midst of the throne. Heavenly creatures provide possibility to speak by means of a cleansing by burning coals. Life and peace is committed to the priestly office to be administrated among men. The prophet is established solely by divine sending. The throne, the reign of the Lamb and the ultimacy connected to this is arranged and combined for a maximised assault on the proud and haughty self-asserting men in these final days. Our On-High calling is priestly/prophetic ministry aimed at a bringing back to a serious consideration of the words sent from the heavenly realms, the words of ultimacy.

‘My people do not consider.’ Prophetic work consists of thinking and pondering, it is directed and instructed by a conscience on high alert, it contains comparison and weighing, it defines itself as an intense search for righteousness and justice. Prophetic work is a painful relating to something which is lost. Prophetic work consists of attentive waiting for content, it offers a thoroughgoing purging for the sake of consistency, it does not settle for anything less than perfect and precious correspondence. As in Heaven, so on Earth.

Words brought by the prophet deal with the real world, such words will not leave man in idleness amidst the needs of fellowmen. The prophetic Church finds itself engaged in costly charity operations. It never spends its recourses on its own pleasure, it hunts for opportunities to practice love, it looks to the Father for instructions regarding prophetic, sacrificial spending. Prophetic work shapes the future, but not with promises which finds no fulfilment. Prophetic work shapes the future by engaging men in projects of reconciliation and restored dignity. This is worship, pleasing to God, with instruments designed and tuned after a different fashion – Jas 1:27.

The priest, the intercessor as well as the prophet learn to dwell restfully in the vast realm of thinking which is God’s. The message of the prophet is birthed at the threshold of the temple. The prayers of an intercessor are induced by the Spirit of prophecy – at all times aimed at revealing Christ in solid testimony. The priest gathers strength for the gruesome work of reconciliation in the chambers of godly council. Our prayer must, at any given point of time, focus the restoration of an ability to gather insight and of evaluation.
Ours is the choice between the folly of fantasy and heavenly relevancy as present time values a mysterious development of the things divine rather than a functional response to the eternal purposes of God and the needs of a fallen generation. Our generation of Christians proves its estrangement from the Lord in its lack of sharing in His perennial burden for things lost, for values lost, for peoples lost. Prophets speak words of heavenly relevancy, real prophets speak words which confronts our pleasure-craving modernity with the reality of priestliness.

Your princes are rebellious and companions of thieves. Everyone loves a bribe, and is pursuing rewards. They do not judge the orphan, nor does the cause of the widow come to them. Isa 1:23
Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and her returning ones with righteousness. Isa 1:27
They shall be ashamed of the trees which you lusted after; and you shall be ashamed of the gardens that you have chosen. Isa 1:29

Princes and prophets, pretenders in office, follow after rewards. Princes and prophets, pretenders before men, are returning from the chambers of prayer, returning from the council of the Lord without any sense of the necessity for speaking truth in love. Theirs is a covering of pretension and loftiness, the accuracy of their predictions secures their positions among a people who do not consider matters of ultimacy. God’s words are related to a realm which is tangible, in which things are verified by conscious response resulting in godliness. The fear of God results in justice expressed in a sacrificial manner among the oppressed. The fear of God is the revolt of a conscience against injustice.

A straying priesthood pitches their tent in the gardens of their own choice. A priesthood gone astray always find room for the moneylender’s tables within the courts of the Lord. Priests who are lost to priestliness prefer glamour, having no interest in glory. These men have no regard for content, they regard humility with contempt.

But Zion will be redeemed with justice. The prophet calls for a returning. The prophet’s words engage man in a recovering of what is lost. The true prophet is ashamed. . . The true prophet is utterly embarrassed by the behaviour of the false one. The true prophet is utterly embarrassed by the unwillingness established among men of God and their followers in regards to proper discernment, to plain man’s thinking. The true prophet shares this embarrassment with God himself.

Do not mix gifts with vocation. . .
Do not mix that which is occational and temporal - though imparted by the Holy Spirit - with that which is written in a life, written as eternal quality. . .

This is prophetic speaking: A conclusive word, a statement of eternal character sent to cause and provoke man to thinking.

... [i]to thinking[/i].

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

I beleive the office of prophet can be distinguished from the gift in that it is permanent and abiding. The calling is inseperable from the man.

Art Katz is very helpful here in his book [url=http://www.benisrael.org/writings/online_books/spirit_of_prophecy/sop_contents.html]The Spirit of Prophecy[/url]

In Christ,

Ron

Modern day Prophet speaks God's written Word that the Apostle wrote in a relevant way to the present situations.

this sounds as though you are saying that in the current time a 'prophet' is someone who applies the New Testament to current situations. Would you deny the possibility of an extra-biblical revelation of the kind we find in the Acts eg.

[color=0033FF] And in these days [u]prophets[/u] came from Jerusalem to Antioch. Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. (Acts 11:27-28 NKJV)[/color]

We do not fall in the trap which some modern prophets so easily do - redefining theological content through the use of prophecy.
We do believe that God does help and instruct through prophecy in practical issues.

We do not fall in the trap which some modern prophets so easily do - redefining theological content through the use of prophecy.
We do believe that God does help and instruct through prophecy in practical issues.

Can you expand a little? are you referring to eschatological interpretations?

... and who is 'we' by the way?

Dear Ron,

Misapplication in the escatological realm might not be the most precarious region of thought where prophets and others try to do exploits, but rather in the realm of the preaching of the cross unto revival.

I guess you are going to ask me to elaborate even more, but I do believe we have enough material at hand on this site which takes us back to reality as to this major issue; the cross of Christ applied in personal lives unto Glory.

By the way, I look for ward to meet you in Canton, where I will conduct a prayer watch the week before the conference.

The standpoint which holds the gift of prophecy to be the base for and mark of a prophet belongs to those modern errors which leads the Church away from soundness.
It does so because the utterances given by the many are seldom supported by the holiness necessary to prove the prophetic call.
It is well said by lwpray, as he refers the gift of prophecy to what is temporal and the vocation of a prophet to a life lived before God.

Misapplication in the escatological realm might not be the most precarious region of thought where prophets and others try to do exploits, but rather in the realm of the preaching of the cross unto revival.

It is well said by lwpray, as he refers the gift of prophecy to what is temporal and the vocation of a prophet to a life lived before God.

Balaam had a prophetic gift and was a prophet. He was an evil man and used his gift for his own ends but he was a seer. (Num 24:15) He was not a righteous man but it seems he was a prophet.

Some ways to experience the gift of prophecy that has been received, according to and by HIS GRACE and HE sees fit!
Giving your testimony; Helping the church solve a sin problem; Counseling to point a sin problem;Preaching on gospel teams; Serving on an evangelism team; Teaching young adults or youth; Serving on a jail ministry; Giving a devotional

I am trying to understand what you understand by 'prophet'. Is there a difference between the exercise of a 'gift of prophecy' and a man who is 'a prophet'? None of the above list is specifically 'prophetic' unless you are interpreting that to mean a timely exposition of scripture. There will elements of the prophetic throughout genuine church life. Prophecy, after all, is the distinctive gift of the New Covenant.

[color=0033FF] “And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall [u]prophesy[/u], Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall [u]prophesy[/u]. (Acts 2:17-18 NKJV)[/color]

The key element in the prophetic is 'revelation' not information and not exposition. It is the timely word spoken 'in season'.

[color=0033FF] How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a [u]revelation[/u], has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. (1Corinthians 14:26 NKJV)[/color]

The prophetic is God's perspective at that moment. Consequently prophecy can relate to the past, present or future. The Jews put Joshua (and other books) among their 'prophets' because Joshua is not just history but God's perspective on history and, as such, revelation.

Perhaps you are trying, in your posts, to guard against the 'self styled prophet' who implies a greater authority because 'God has called him to be a prophet'. Readers of these posts will know that I have little time for such claims. However I do believe in the contemporary manifestation of the Spirit in prophecy in the local church (which is what we have in 1 Corinthians) and I do believe that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor/teachers will be given to the Church until the Lord returns.

I am also sure that although these 'function gifts' are still given it is dangerous to label the men who exercise them. There is much evidence that in the NT these 'men' were recognised by the Church but there is no evidence that they ever carried these functions as titles. The NT is little interested in titles but is greatly interested in functions.

[color=000099]I must wear multiple hats, and in shuffling them all it may appear that I am excluded, hence...[/color]

philologs continues:
I am also sure that although these 'function gifts' are still given it is dangerous to label the men who exercise them. There is much evidence that in the NT these 'men' were recognized by the Church but there is no evidence that they ever carried these functions as titles. The NT is little interested in titles but is greatly interested in functions.

God poured out his spirit on us through Christ at the cross and the resurrection 3 days later and on the day of Pentecost when the disciples waited in the upper room, they received power when gave gifts through the Holy Spirit to men, just as the Prophet Joel said HE would. He still is pouring out HIS SPIRIT today when a person makes Jesus the Lord of their life. He will continue until the fulness of the gentiles has come.

I don't understand you. Do you mean there were three separate outpourings? Why would you say that 'God poured out his spirit on us through Christ at the cross' when there is absolutely no indication of this in the scripture?

Each time God's Word is given or spoken and HIS SPIRIT prompts that speaking, it is a tongue. It is a teaching. Each time the SPIRIT allows one to see truth through HIS SPIRIT and THE WORD he gets an interpretation.

Now I'm sorry, if these truths blew any prior or present denominational theology out the window or did not agree with your denominational doctrine. I do not even attempt to agree with the doctrine of the church I attend when I study the scripture, but only the truth alone in His Word. I could almost hear you yelling as you were twisting the words I wrote that were evidently shorter than they should have been and evidently not very clear to you. Now if you have some rebuttal I would love to hear it. I believe if you read my post again no where in there can you infer that I wrote anything about 3 separate days of Pentecost but rather HIS SPIRIT is still being manifested today through HIS church and HIS people just as HE planned it.

I don't belong to any denomination.
If you could 'hear me yelling' your imagination is better than your theology.