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"A Christian will sin every day until we are perfected in heaven"

B
BeYeDoers

First off, I do not want this thread to be an argument about "sinless perfection" etc. like what went around a few weeks ago.

Secondly, I think the main thrust of this endless argument between Christian is misunderstanding of the "victorious life". Holiness people think the "not yet" people promote grace regardless; the "not yet" camp think Holiness camp teaches justification by sanctification or "sinless perfection", not drawing the proper distinction between sinless perfection and what Wesley calls Christian perfection. Except for cults, emergents, and fringe groups, not many people believe either of the extremes commonly accused.

So, that being said, I want SCRIPTURE, not your personal dissertation, that teaches we as Christians will "with knowledge" sin every day until he returns, even though it is against our will.

H
hmmhmm

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

C
Christinyou

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye
be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

How in the world can we be perfect? Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

It is the Christ in you that is Perfect and that is who the Father see's when he looks at His children in Christ.

This is the truth of scripture, not a cult teaching.

Perfect before the Father, In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

It is the Christ in you that is Perfect and that is who the Father see's when he looks at His children in Christ.

This is the truth of scripture, not a cult teaching.

Amen... thats it in a nutshell.

Krispy

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sermonindex

PS-

I would like to see scripture too, only in context if that is not to much to ask...

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex

Jim, not sure what you're asking scripture to show. To proove that we can reach perfection in this life, or that our flesh will always be a battleground and our perfection is in Christ?

Please clarify... cuz it seems to me there has been a lot of scripture thrown into this discussion.

I could quote the entire New Testament in a post, and someone will still say "show me some scripture".

Krispy

N
Nile

Just read the book of 1 John honestly (and do some research on 1:8).

1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [Commandments such as Matthew 5:48, "Therefore be perfect as your Father in heaven in perfect."]

[b]2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.[/b]

2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[b]2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.[/b]

3:4-9 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

[b]4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.[/b]

4:21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

[b]5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.[/b]

ect, ect.

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sermonindex

Do you sin, Nile?

Krispy

N
Nile


KrispyKrittr wrote:
Do you sin, Nile?

Krispy

The short answer: [b]NO!!![/b]

I'll answer possible refinements of the question for clariy.

1. Are you sinning right now?
No. =)

2. Do you plan on sinning again?
No.

3. Do you anticipate sinning again?
No.

4. Is there any commandment of God that you know you do not keep?
No.

5. Do you sin every day?
No.

6. Is your conscience perfectly pure?
Yes.

7. Have you repented of all known sin and conformed your life to the revelation give to you?
Yes.

8. Have you sinned in the past?
Yes.

9. Have you sinned in the past month?
Yes I have unfortunately. This is not a light matter. Within the past month I have rebelled against God and fallen from Grace. I have since repented and turned back to God. There are many causes for fall like this...my faith is new, I am immature, I lack wisdom, I am surrounded by ungodliness, and I still learning the fundamentals of God. Once my sure foundation is laid, the likelyhood of failling away is much much less.

10. Do you love God with all your heart and love your neighboor as yourself, thus fulfilling the law and being free from sin?
Yes.

How would you answer to these questions?

Nile

Edit:
Thinking on the purspose of this thread, I'm going to make a new thread for this discussion.

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sermonindex

Glad everything is going so great for you. How's your pride?

Krispy

I
iansmith

Funny that someone should quote 1 John so extensively but miss the crux of the first chapter:

[b]8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/b]

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sermonindex

Glad everything is going so great for you. How's your pride?

Krispy

That's pretty immature.

H
HopePurifies

Iansmith, that was not the "crux" of the chapter but the springboard.
Once one has admitted that one has sin, one can be cleansed from all sin. Not just judicially, but actually.
Krispy, how is your pride?

That's all I can contribute. There are a myriad of scriptures that say that one should not sin and has the ability to not sin (and the duty to not sin), and what actions to take if one happens to sin. But there is not ONE scripture in the entire text that says you will sin every day of your life, saved or unsaved.

S
sermonindex

Folks,

The whole point of the Gospel is that it is "Not I, but Christ"

The Father is only pleased with the Son. That's It! Outside of Christ we are enemies of God...every single one of us. In Christ we have Peace with God. Period. He is made unto us....justification, sanctification, redemption, wisdom...etc.

That’s' why Paul's letters are plastered with the term...."in Christ" because that is what matters. To grow in grace does not mean to become more and more sinless, it means to understand and walk in the truth of "Who we are now, in Christ" JESUS CHRIST DEALT WITH SIN ON THE CROSS, ONCE AND FOR ALL! IT IS FINISHED!

He purchased it all for us. He purchased our justification. He purchased our sanctification. He purchased our Glorification. He is our propitiation. All the promises of God are "in Him" yes and amen. IT IS FINISHED. We have an inheritance that Christ left us. His Life! We are now to renew our mind and learn Christ.

This is why I think a call for revival is so ridiculous. Yes, I said ridiculous. As a church we do not even understand the Gospel. What will we teach all these new converts that will get saved? Will we give them more law? Will we put burdens on them that even we cannot bare?

Forget revival! Let's get back into our bibles and study to show ourselves approved. Let's actually learn what our bible says, instead of ripping out a scripture here or there.

As a church, I include myself; we are ignorant of what Christ actually gave His life for!

N
Nile

iansmith wrote:
Funny that someone should quote 1 John so extensively but miss the crux of the first chapter

I see a much different crux; not only of the first chapter, but of the whole Bible. Read about the traditional view of 1 John 1:8.

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Nile

Since the matter was brought up, here is an article on 1 John 1:8 for those more interested:
[url=http://www.stopsinning.net/1_John.htm]http://www.stopsinning.net/1_John.htm[/url]

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sermonindex

Nile-

We have talked before on the *sinless perfection* threads. Do you walk in brokneness realizing that even now, with no known sin, that God can (and I pray will) expose things in you as He continually transforms you (things that currently exist in you and are sin because they miss the mark of Gods perfection but you are not aware of)... curious.

In Christ - Jim

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sermonindex

Krispy, how is your pride?

My pride is very much intact, unfortunately. I find that my pride is the root of every problem I encounter with me. And when I'm doing well, and following the Lord more faithfully than ever... I manage to get prideful about that.

I mark the daylights out of my Bible. I get prideful about that when we're in a group and the passage we're studying is one I have all marked up... I find myself thinking "everyone's gonna think I'm spiritual." So I have started using an unmarked Bible in group situations to avoid that pridefulness... and I find myself feeling pretty proud about conquering that pride.

I'm sure I'm the only one who has this problem... right?

One thing that I wont do is sugar coat myself and try to pretend I am more holy than I really am. (I'm in no way implying anyone here is doing that!!) I've been around the block too many times... I know that I'm not perfect. I hate the struggle, but I'm in good company. I strive to live holy. I strive to get victory over sin... and God has shown me that I have had many more victories than failures... but the fact is, the flesh is still with me.

And someday that flesh will be dead, and I will live as never before.

Krispy

N
Nile


jimdied2sin wrote:
Nile-

We have talked before on the *sinless perfection* threads. Do you walk in brokneness realizing that even now, with no known sin, that God can (and I pray will) expose things in you as He continually transforms you (things that currently exist in you and are sin because they miss the mark of Gods perfection but you are not aware of)... curious.

In Christ - Jim

Thanks for the question Jim.

I do believe that God can and will continually expose things in me that are not in accord with His perfect will, His ultimate goal...which is that I be like Christ, not in nature only, but also in stature (Christ GREW in stature - He did not grow in nature).
As for brokenness, the Lord doesn't let me walk otherwise.

In Christ,
Nile

R
roaringlamb

Yes I have unfortunately. This is not a light matter. Within the past month I have rebelled against God and fallen from Grace. I have since repented and turned back to God. There are many causes for fall like this...my faith is new, I am immature, I lack wisdom, I am surrounded by ungodliness, and I still learning the fundamentals of God. Once my sure foundation is laid, the likelihood of falling away is much much less.

Brother, the only mention of a person falling from grace in the Scripture is when one looks to the law as a means of justification.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, [b]whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[/b]

Brother if you are looking to yourself, and your deeds to justify you before God, you are in danger of casting away Christ and His justifying work for you. If indeed you are doing this, you might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church. Their teaching is justification by sanctification, or that one needs to work in order to justify themselves before God.

But may I ask you, what work can man possibly offer to God that would be acceptable when even our most spiritual deeds are tainted with the death of our flesh?

If brother you have faith in the crucified and risen Saviour, this faith was a gift to you, and as such you are justified before God by Christ's merits and not your own. Rejoice in this, leap for joy that the One who rightly could have destroyed every single one of us has shown mercy and grace through Christ. Do not trample under foot the Cross of Christ and count it as nothing, for to do so is to negate that work.

As Paul said to the Romans-
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: [b]that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.[/b]

Notice who is the justifier, not man, but God. He justifies based upon the fact that Christ has been offered in the place of the sinner and has made a propitiation of the wrath due to them.

Blessings to you brother

S
sermonindex

To answer the original post:

[i]Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Romans 7:1-25)[/i]

In our flesh dwells the law of sin, and this law will dwell in our flesh as a part of our fallen nature until the day of glorification. Notice Paul's conclusion of the whole chapter (which proves this applies not only to Pharisees, but to all Christians, including Paul himself); he says, "So then, with the mind I serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin". Then he says "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in CHRIST".

According to the law of God (of Moses), we sin all the time, but according to the law of the Spirit of Christ, we can walk in freedom and victory with pure consciences before God, knowing that grace empowers us to obey its requirements, and that if we do stumble and sin, grace enables us to be forgiven, so long as we truly abide in Christ and do those things that are acceptable to Him in faith. So according to the law of the Spirit, we don't sin all the time, for we walk in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The law of Moses in fulfilled in Christ and abolished in us by His death, and its requirements have no more hold. Now we are set free to serve God in simplicity of love.

More scripture:

[i]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
(Galatians 5:16-17)

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1 John 1:8)

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
(1 Peter 4:8)[/i]

The problem comes in when we view sin merely as an act of the will rather than as a shortcoming against the glory of God. Sin is not only an act of the will voluntarily committed, as Paul says in Romans 7 "To will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not". His will was against sin, but the law of sin dwelling within his members, in his flesh, didn't let him walk in perfect sinlessness. Sin is a law in our flesh, and sin is coming short of the glory of God, not just a conscious act of the will to disobey against known light. Because of this, we have a shortcoming within us every day, but we don't voluntarily sin against known light every day.

H
HopePurifies

Oh ok. From your response here and in the other thread, I see your intent.
No Krispy, of course your not the only one to struggle against pride. :-) However, I would like to encourage you by letting you know that there is hope for those of us who do. We have to take up our cross DAILY.
Jesus can give us the grace to make us completely holy.
The law and the prophets hangs on "love your God with all your heart and the second like it, love your neighbor as yourself" not the other way around. Do you have faith that Jesus's death and resurrection can bring us to obedience to the simple commands God requires of us? (rhetorical question for both you and me)

S
sermonindex

[color=000033]Amen brother. Pride is one of our worst enemies, Lust is another. If we can look back to a point and time where we was born again, and we ask HIM not only to be our savior but LORD of our life, we will be able to see without any doubt we have become a new creation. Perfection no, but we will see changes, changes that we could not do without HIM, and the reason we do see those changes now is because HE gives us the will to be pleasing to HIM. When we look back on our life after we are buried with HIM in baptism and raised again to walk in newness of life and if we don't see those things that we normally would not see and we see things we do are different now and they line up more with HIS WORD and on the flip side of that do thing, we can see don't do's that we use to do and we don't do anymore, because they are not pleasing to HIM. We should get worried and concerned if we don't see those changes and be concerned in the fact that we might hear "depart from me I never knew you". I think we must examine ourselves.[/color] 8-)

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sermonindex

The question is: Can you be perfect in this life and still sin?

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sermonindex


Compliments wrote:
The question is: Can you be perfect in this life and still sin?

[color=00GG99]moe_mac wrote:
The question to me is "am I born again".
Am I a new creation in Christ Jesus!!!
Not, how much do I sin.
Not, am I completely sinless in my actions,
but do I sin less because HE lives in me.
In my heart does His Spirit prompt me to be to sin less and to be more pleasing to HIM!!!
To think less about the pleasures of the world and more about what He desires for me.
If we knew His plan and the outcome of them for our life. It would be exactly what we would choose for ourselves.[/color]

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sermonindex


Christinyou wrote:
It is the Christ in you that is Perfect and that is who the Father see's when he looks at His children in Christ.

This is the truth of scripture, not a cult teaching.

Perfect before the Father, In Christ: Phillip

Never mind what the Father sees, what do others see that they should be drawn to Christ; that they should recognize their need and Him to be the only one who can fill it?

I
Isaiah64

To all those who believe that Romans 7:14-25 is speaking of a regenerate man, please see this article:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19065&forum=36&4]Understanding Romans 7[/url]
It was NOT written by someone who believes in Christian perfection.
Remember brothers and sisters, we need to examine passages of Scripture by their CONTEXT and not by our own experiences.

S
sermonindex

Someone elseware remarked:

"That's interesting. Giving back what God has given to us.

The father’s first priority was us, the Sons first priority was the father, then us.

God gives us spirit, soul and a body and wants us to develop them, then give them back to him to serve with for his purpose. Not keep them undeveloped or use them for our purpose".

...to which I replied:

Indeed, that is it, in capsule form. Sort of sets apart the simply saved from the *born again, doesn’t it?

We must understand that it was Father's intent from the beginning, starting with Adam, to "groom" many son's and bring them to divine Glory.. "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.[Passion] Hebrews 2:10 (KJV)

The struggle would always be, to some degree, from "self's" unwillingness to participate, regardless of one’s spiritual progress, that is, our supernatural enablement for becoming a son. This can be seen by Adam's failure in the garden and the success of the man, Jesus in the wilderness.
Jesus' willingness was because of His "cultivated" intimacy with the Father. He “learned obedience”. As a result of His allegiance and by His love to the Father, "being full of Grace and Truth" was ‘actualized’ within Him and by this, His life, He overcame the enemy. In other words, and as how that might apply to us is, when we are born again, what was in Jesus, enabling Him to be Holy and perfecting Him, is now IN us to enable us to perform righteously UNTO the Father in all things; to make us holy. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48 (KJV) How can that be possible if He did not give us the enablement? Ah, what marvelous things because of the "work" of the Cross. It was for the creation of saints to be perfected by the “way of the Cross”; “self-renouncication.”

*Those who have a revelation of Jesus Christ..

I
iansmith

Is sanctification a process or an event? In my Christian experience it has been a process -if someone else has had an event where they gave up sin forever, praise the Lord!

I haven't recieved the same dispensation, but I am joyfully living every day with the Lord, overcoming my sin one day at a time by Grace.

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sermonindex


iansmith wrote:
Is sanctification a process or an event? In my Christian experience it has been a process -if someone else has had an event where they gave up sin forever, praise the Lord!

I haven't recieved the same dispensation, but I am joyfully living every day with the Lord, overcoming my sin one day at a time by Grace.

"To be rid of Self is to have the heart bare to God" ..... George MacDonald


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