"Do you sin?"

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Do you sin, Nile?

Krispy

The short answer: [b]NO!!![/b]

I'll answer possible refinements of the question for clarity.

1. Are you sinning right now?
No. =)

2. Do you plan on sinning again?
No.

3. Do you anticipate sinning again?
No.

4. Is there any commandment of God that you know you do not keep?
No.

5. Do you sin every day?
No.

6. Is your conscience perfectly pure?
Yes.

7. Have you repented of all known sin and conformed your life to the revelation give to you?
Yes.

8. Have you sinned in the past?
Yes.

9. Have you sinned in the past month?
Yes I have unfortunately. This is not a light matter. Within the past month I have rebelled against God and fallen from Grace. I have since repented and turned back to God. There are many causes for fall like this...my faith is new, I am immature, I lack wisdom, I am surrounded by ungodliness, and I am still learning the fundamentals of God. Once my sure foundation is laid, the likelihood of falling away is much much less. (Remember that Peter had flat out denied Christ shortly before preaching the sermon on Pentecost.)

10. Do you love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself, thus fulfilling the law and committing no sin?
Yes.

How would you (being anyone) answer these questions?

Nile

[edit: I reworded the tenth question]

Hmm. I asked myself these questions and realized what a terrible terrible trouble I'm in. I thought I'd share that with you.

First- I answered 1,2, and 3 with No's. I thought this because I didn't think I was doing anything sinful really. However then I got to question 4. And then everything fell to pieces for me. Because I do not love God with all my heart. I didn't pray this morning and I haven't received the grace to love God despite the counsel I've received from other Christians. Therefore in actuality the answers for 1,2,3 were incorrect!
So 5 is true for me... of late. 6. No. Which means I have no power before God. 7. YES (as of now). 8. Yes. 9. Yes, and it is inexcusable. I am also a young Christian with a weak foundation (great sermons about that on this site though!). 10. No.

So. These questions have shed a great deal of life on me, showing me that I have been not living a grace-filled, Spirit-filled life. I am going to repent, and pray. If this thread is still active, I will update you in a week or two, hopefully with victory.
If we confess our sins He will cleanse us our sins. :-)
I really hope that instead of justifying yourself you would really let these questions sink in, and recall the scriptures for those times when your answers aren't what they should be... In Jesus is everything pertaining to life and godliness.

At first, I was going to ignore this, I don't doubt some have.

But, maybe regrettably, I changed my mind.

Krispy, that was unnecessary.

Pride is a struggle we all have, whether we realise it or not.

As it is, I don't know of anyone who has 'arrived, whatever that might be.

Maybe it is a place of total humility.

So, sadly, we just continue to be us, until the light goes on inside and we see what God wants us to be, we stop fighting it, and surrender.

God bless.

[size=xx-small]Do Yo Sin?[/size]

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Pride is the root of everything sinful. If we've conquered sin, then we've conquered our pride. But some have pride in their sinlessness... which is sin after all.

Pride is put to death just like the other sins. I take no pride in this. I didn't set myself free =)

1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

jimdied2sin wrote:

Yes, however, I am not accountable for my sins(you, the christian are not eather) because they are covered.

That is heresy if left unclarified...

Christians are not responsible(liable) to their record of the sins commited.

We are not charged with sin because [b]Rom 4:8[/b] [color=990000]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute(be charge with) sin.[/color]
Or:
That person's sin will not be held against him by the Lord.

If we are accountable for our sins, then we will not stand on the day of judgment.

As one modern hymn says (in bold) my point well:
Only by grace can we enter. Only by grace can we stand
Not by our human endeavour, but by the blood of the Lamb
Into your presence you call us, you call us to come
Now by your grace we come. Now by your grace we come
[b]Lord, if you mark our transgressions who will stand?[/b]
Thanks to your grace we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb

Nile wrote:

9. Have you sinned in the past month?
Yes I have unfortunately. This is not a light matter. Within the past month I have rebelled against God and fallen from Grace. I have since repented and turned back to God. There are many causes for fall like this...my faith is new, I am immature, I lack wisdom, I am surrounded by ungodliness, and I still learning the fundamentals of God. Once my sure foundation is laid, the likelyhood of failling away is much much less. (Remember that Peter had flat out denied Christ shortly before preaching the sermon on Pentacost.)

Nile

Hi Nile,

I have a question, are you saying that you lost your salvation (fell from Grace) because you sinned?

I've heared teaching like this before at holiness churches, but I'm not quite sure what you meant by point nine.

Thanks,
Jordan

HomeFree89 wrote:

Nile wrote:

9. Have you sinned in the past month?
Yes I have unfortunately. This is not a light matter. Within the past month I have rebelled against God and fallen from Grace. I have since repented and turned back to God. There are many causes for fall like this...my faith is new, I am immature, I lack wisdom, I am surrounded by ungodliness, and I still learning the fundamentals of God. Once my sure foundation is laid, the likelyhood of failling away is much much less. (Remember that Peter had flat out denied Christ shortly before preaching the sermon on Pentacost.)

Nile

Hi Nile,

I have a question, are you saying that you lost your salvation (fell from Grace) because you sinned?

I've heared teaching like this before at holiness churches, but I'm not quite sure what you meant by point nine.

Thanks,
Jordan

Yes, good question.

First, when I say I "fell from Grace" I mean that God offered me grace to overcome my sin, but I refused it.

What is it I am saved from? Hell? Chiefly, I am saved from the power and domination of sin. Seeing as I became once again a slave to sin ("For you are slaves to whom you obey"), yes I did lose my salvation.

As far as I am concerned, that is all that matters.

---

However, others will ask the question (which I believe to be less important), if I died in the midst of this sin, would I be justified of it? That is, did I lose my justification before God?

Although my conviction on this is not watertight (I acknowledge may be wrong), I believe yes, I lost my justification before God.

I can hear the objections already, "What?!?! That means that if you sin one little sin, like a lustful look or an angry thought, and you happen to die in the middle of it, you'd go to Hell!? That's bogus!!"

I don't think it's bogus at all, I think it's a clear message of God revealed in scripture.

Sin is serious.

Yes, one sin will send you to hell.

If you get saved and live cleanly for a long time, but them happen to sin right before you die, guess what: [b]that's a really really bad thing[/b]. There's a reason we are told to [b]finish[/b] the race well. Paul even describes himself as being able to fall away in 1 Corinthians 9:
But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, [b]I myself should become disqualified[/b].

One sin corrupted all of the universe and doomed an entire race.

Is one sin I commit less heinous?

God will justify no one that rebells against Him. That is sin: to rebel against God.

---

Our God is merciful, and even though one may sin, there still remains hope in Jesus:

1 John 2:1
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

---

Why should it be surprising that it is possible to waver back and forth between God and the world? Especially if ones dedication to God and faith in Him is weak? To do so is extremely careless and extremely dangerous, but it is none the less possible. So it is with Christians who waver between God and sin.

That is the message I see in the Bible.

*sigh*

Krispy, there's a small army of [u]straw men[/u] in your post. You might want to read my post again.

Brother what your trusting in is your works.

I trust in Jesus for mercy, Jesus for grace, and Jesus for the Holy Spirit.

This is legalism you are promoting.

According to Websters Online Dictionary:

Legalism.
1. Strict conformity to the letter of the law rather than its spirit.

No, that is definitely not what I am promoting.

Hey Krispy,
I think you misread his post.
Let's say you're a smoker. And you smoke every day. Then you say "I want to quit smoking". So you buy a nicotine patch. The nicotine patch saves you from smoking. But then you say, well, I'm going to smoke anyway because my friends are here and they are smoking. Did you accept salvation from smoking? No, therefore you lost it.
If that nicotine patch was Nile's works, he would indeed be wrong. But time and time again, we have said that it is the grace of God that keeps us from sin.
Obedience is not legalism! Legalism is not loving God, and trying to abide by the rules without the love.
The justification part is a different issue from salvation. So you could call him on that if you want to discuss it elsewhere....
The message of James is that we are justified by a faith that WORKS. You cannot have faith without works and get into heaven.

Thank you Krispy and Logic for your posts,

And I will only add that the "works" road is surely I hard road to travel.

God Bless,
tonys

Nile wrote:
However, others will ask the question (which I believe to be less important), if I died in the midst of this sin, would I be justified of it? That is, did I lose my justification before God?

Although my conviction on this is not watertight (I acknowledge may be wrong), I believe yes, I lost my justification before God.

I can hear the objections already, "What?!?! That means that if you sin one little sin, like a lustful look or an angry thought, and you happen to die in the middle of it, you'd go to Hell!? That's bogus!!"

I don't think it's bogus at all, I think it's a clear message of God revealed in scripture.

Sin is serious.

Yes, one sin will send you to hell.

It is only when one down right forsakes Christ with impunity and does not care about it, that is when one looses the relationship with Christ.

Therefore, you are in error.

TonyS wrote:
Thank you Krispy and Logic for your posts,

And I will only add that the "works" road is surely I hard road to travel.

God Bless,
tonys

Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Hope... I didnt misread his post. And if you think I am promoting anything but holiness, I'm not.

But we do not lose our salvation if we commit a sin. Someone does not live a life walking closely with God, cuss when the heart attack hits them... then, because they didnt have a chance to ask God to forgive them, end up in hell.

Krispy

He meant salvation from sin. If you sin, you lost salvation from sin. Because you sinned. Very simple.
As far as justification (heaven or hell), like I said, fire away.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
But we do not lose our salvation if we commit a sin. Someone does not live a life walking closely with God, cuss when the heart attack hits them... then, because they didnt have a chance to ask God to forgive them, end up in hell.

There is a far cry difference between what you and I consider to be a Christian.

James 1:26
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

It is impossible for someone to walk closely with God and "cuss when the heart attack hits them".

You are forgetting that one does not loose his relationship with Christ because of one sin, because it is the relationship that one has with Christ that saves him.

Our relationship with Christ is based on faith. If we sin, it shows that we have no faith, thus no relationship.

It is relationship with Christ that justifies you.
One can not loose a relationship with Christ even while in the midst of a sin, His blood is still on you.

This isn't rocket science: if we willfully sin, the blood no longer covers us.

It is only when one down right forsakes Christ with impunity and does not care about it, that is when one looses the relationship with Christ.

[i]Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Proverbs 19:16
He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul,
But he who is [b]careless[/b] of his ways will die.[/i]

[i]“For in that He died, He died unto sin once: But in that He Lives, He lives unto God”[/i]
Rom 6:10

Christ’s death not only paid the penalty of human sin, but it was used of God to break the power of the indwelling sin in the believer’s life.

As in the hymn, ‘Rock of Ages’ “be of sin the double cure, saved from wrath and make me pure”

A double cure for there was a double problem in essence; first was man’s lost condition, and secondly the necessity for the believer to walk pure before God. Christ on the Cross-defeated sin once for all. Paul uses the term Cross to explain the entire redemption process, the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the Exaltation of our Lord.

“ONCE” - what was accomplished at Calvary was so complete, total and absolute it will never be repeated. When a believer is unclear what is meant by “it is finished”, and until the believer understands the Cross as it relates to sanctification yes the “works” road as I have stated is a hard one to travel.

The narrow way a difficult one? Yes of course, as we are not in our glorified state. Yet made more difficult unnecessarily by us when we try to add to what is already finished.

Our relationship with Christ is based on faith. If we sin, it shows that we have no faith, thus no relationship.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

This isn't rocket science: if we willfully sin, the blood no longer covers us.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Proverbs 19:16
He who keeps the commandment keeps his soul,
But he who is careless of his ways will die.

brother, what about 1 john 2 that says if we sin we have an advocate with the Father?? i am not saying that we should sin, but if we do sin....

Yes good point. That is a great verse! There is yet hope for even the worst of sinners.
I may have spoken wrongly when I said we have no relationship with Him if we sin. I'm not sure what the right wording is, but I think the idea is the same.

please look at this verse in context of the whole letter of hebrews. what was happening that the author wrote this letter?? christians (or many professed believers of Christ) were being tempted to go back to judaism and deny that Christ was really Lord and Savior. they were being tempted to forsake THE WAY and go back to the law. why do you think that this verse comes right after the exhortation to continue to meet with the brethren and not forsake meeting together??

Yes, I do need to look at the context for that one, I know it the least. I have read the context before, of course, and I'm not sure I misapplied it, but I will look into it. Thanks for the reproof.

brother nile, these are false teachers (wolves in sheep's clothing) who never knew God and God never knew them. the verse tells us that much. look at the 7th chapter of matthew and you'll see that Jesus contrast true believers and false believers in a couple different circumstances..

Right, I agree.

I posted those last two scriptures trying to show that it is possible to not be saved even if you don't "down right forsake Christ". That is, even men who "name the name of Jesus" will be cast into Hell. Because, of course, their naming is in vain and without works to prove it real (as James talks about). Also, men may claim to follow Christ, but become careless and doom themselves in their careless sin.

sometimes they will give into sin and they will confess their sin and repent. that does not constitute loosing their salavation every time they sin. if that is the case, then brother many of us on this site have lost our salvation hundreds of times.

Right. I would say, yes, many, including myself have lost their salvation many of times (although I'm sure how many for myself, seeing as I haven't had salvation that long)...if one continues to waver between God and sin, it is a sign of a severe lack of maturity in Christ.

The tithe yes it is 10% of everydollar. Do I sin, yes I sin this is my sin.

I am a murderer,
But I tithe
I am a fornicator
But I tithe
I am a deceiver
But I tithe
I am a liar
But I tithe

The Lord knows the way that you take, and when he has tested you, you shall come out as gold, as pure Gold.

Where Sin abounds Grace does much more abound. Has his word changed, no it has not. We fail but he remains faithful, all things shall pass away but his Word shall never pass away.

You can pay your tithes and still end up in hell, obedience is better than sacrifice.
Tithes does not save you, a reformed and regenerated heart does.

It’s too late the request was made and the answer was given.

Did I post this on the right thread?

Hallelujah, thank you Jesus for all of your glory and all of your praise, makes me want to say, thank you Jesus :-(

Nile wrote:

You are forgetting that one does not loose his relationship with Christ because of one sin, because it is the relationship that one has with Christ that saves him.

Adam lost his relationship with God "because of one sin".

Furthermore, God still sought for Adam, proves that the relationship was not lost.

Nile wrote:
Our relationship with Christ is based on faith.

Nile wrote:
If we sin, it shows that we have no faith, thus no relationship.

Nile wrote:
Hebrews 10:26-27 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,
:27 but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile.

Christians who still have a relationship with Christ do not keep sinning voluntarily with many sinns.
This isn't rocket science: The verse is talking about living a life of sin.

Nile wrote:
Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Logic, you missed the points I was making. I'll try to be more explicit next time.

Nile wrote:
Quote:

You are forgetting that one does not loose his relationship with Christ because of one sin, because it is the relationship that one has with Christ that saves him.

Adam lost his relationship with God "because of one sin".

Nile wrote:
Our relationship with Christ is based on faith.

Nile wrote:
If we sin, it shows that we have no faith, thus no relationship.

Logic Said:
Notice the "sinning"
is voluntary prestent active plure.

Christians who still have a relationship with Christ do not keep sinning voluntarily with many sinns.
This isn't rocket science: The verse is talking about living a life of sin.

I'd consider this eisegesis, inserting things into the text that aren't there.
Jesus said, "Go and sin [b]no more[/b]." Not, "Go and [i]sin less[/i]."
I find no place in the Bible where Christians warned against "many sins" but instead "any sin". I'd be very interesting in seeing them if there are any (and maybe there are).

You hit the nail no the head with "living a life of sin", you just don't have the proper definition of "living a life of sin".

If you rebel against God and sin, guess what - you're living a life of sin. One sin casts your whole character and countenance against God, it affects you as a whole, not only in some isolated way. You have once again become a slave to sin, neglecting the salvation of God.

Look at the converse and tell me what you think: Is it possible to rebel against God in body, soul, and spirit, to cease to love God with all your heart, to commit cosmic treason, to neglect the grace of God, to call God a liar, to shame the name of Christ, to turn from Him, to have no faith in God, to be guilty of all the points of the law (remember, if you break one, you are guilty of them all), to become once again a slave to sin and a servant of the devil, loving the world and despising God (this is what happens when you sin, see Matthew 6:24)...and you are all the while not "living a life of sin"?

[i]Then what in blazes [b]is[/b] living a life of sin?!?!!?[/i]

Logic Said:
This is talking about those whgo do not seek His guidance in their afairs in this life.
Notice that HE never knew them.

You're implying I was implying things that I wasn't. This and the following verse were in response to:

It is only when one down right forsakes Christ with impunity and does not care about it, that is when one looses the relationship with Christ.

As is clear by reading my original post and my later post, where I expound on it:

Nile Said:
I posted those last two scriptures trying to show that it is possible to not be saved even if you don't "down right forsake Christ". That is, even men who "name the name of Jesus" will be cast into Hell. Because, of course, their naming is in vain and without works to prove it real (as James talks about). Also, men may claim to follow Christ, but become careless and doom themselves in their careless sin.

Even though you misunderstood me, thanks for pointing out the apparent errors!

Nile

richardf wrote:
If I, as a Christian and child of God, willfully (voluntarily) commit lust once today, am I condemned to hell?

If Christ can't save you from lust, why do you expect Him to save you from Hell?

Look, we need a radical redefining of our terms: Salvation is not a get out of Hell free ticket, it is the grace of God that brings godliness and sets us free from the power of sin!

When they are disobedient the relationship is strained, and we do not enjoy the closeness that we normally enjoy. But never do they cease being my children.

The Bible says he who sins [b]is a child of the devil[/b].
There is a sense in which we never cease to be children of God, and in that sense, even the heathen are children of God. So in a very real sense, we stop being God's children when we sin. This is straight up basic scripture.

Furthermore, you're analogy just falls apart when you look at the garden of Eden. When Adam was disobedient, more happened than just a strained relationship.

You're saying that God expects us to stick with a situation that He Himself isnt willing to do. I dont buy that. Not for a minute.

Scripture says that when we sin we have an advocate... Christ Jesus.

I was treading lightly on this thread because I wanted to be sure that I understood what you were saying, Nile. Over the past 24 hours it has become quite clear what you are saying

Thanks :-)

but...

You are not enjoying the best possible relationship with God as Father if you're afraid that the moment you fail Him He turns His back and walks away from you.

That is a relationship built on fear, not love and trust.

What kind of Father would you think me to be if I abandoned my children everytime they failed? I wouldnt be a father, I would be a tyrant.

This isn't about God turning His back on us, it's about us turning our back on God. I have no fear that God will disown me! I trust and love God more than I ever have. I don't live my days in fear, "Oh no, what if I sin!" hehe, it's funny that people always think that is the natural outcome if you don't believe in OSAS.

I am glad that when I fail God, my Father comes to me thru the Holy Spirit and shows me my error and convicts me, and when I repent my Father listens to Christ as He reprents me before the throne. My Father does that because I am His adopted son, and He wants me, and loves me. And I am so grateful to Him for that. I love and trust my Father because He never leaves me or forsakes me. (Hebrews 13:5)

The only place I might slightly disagree is, "because I am His adopted son". I have a different understanding of this, which is that I don't believe we are full flegded adopted sons of God until Jesus returns. Till then, we are His children being trained to be His sons. We may stop this training at any time we wish though. That is not to say that God will not strive with us for our salvation though, as He does with all men.
Don't get hung on this difference though, it's mostly just semantics.

Hopefully after reading this post you will understand my position better.

Thanks for the dialogue :-)
Nile

Nile, I think I understand what you're saying. This dance of trying to figure each other out can take awhile... lol.

Yes, it can! :-P

I dont believe committing a sin, losing the battle... failing, seperates us from God and His salvation.

My main point on this, is that if you are not saved from your sin, then you're salvation, whatever it is, is not worth that much.

I do believe that living a lifestyle of sin and not feeling any remorse for it, or showing no repentence is a dangerous place to be. I think we seperate here tho, because I believe if someone is doing this... they probably were not truly saved anyway.

I would say agree with you that most who go back to a life of sin never knew God.

I think we differ mainly in what we consider a lifestyle of sin.

And essentially, all I'm saying is this: If you're sinning, that's a lifestyle of sin. If you're not sinning, that's not a lifestyle of sin. I don't think the quantity or quality of the sin matters. I also believe you can repent at any moment and turn to back fully.

Gotta run to class,
Nile

maybe i'm wrong, but the problem with nile's view that i see is that there is no hope, as shown in the bible. In Nile's view we can only hope that we don't sin at the time of death, obviously you would hope to not sin at all, but if you really look at how our lives play out, and nile, i think you admit you are not perfected yet, we do sin. We do battle with our flesh. So you will have to hope that you don't sin on your death bed. That doesn't sound like a great hope or any kind of assurance to me.
Instead of looking forward to going to be with Jesus after death, we would be very hesitant about death.

Aren't we instructed in 1 Cor 3
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

This speaks for itself i think.

Also sin is missing the mark. So, unless we are perfectly doing God's will at death, nile, you are saying we go to hell? Sin is not just commision but also ommision. This may be getting too hypothetical, but what if you die in a car accident, on the highway while on the way some place, when God would have had you doing something else, if only you had prayed and sought God's will for that day/hour/whatever? Your missing the mark of God's will at that moment.

brother nile,

dear brother, i appreciate your desire to serve God and your wholehearted commitment to Him. like yourself, i am a younger believer in the Lord. i have only been a disciple of Christ for 8 years. how long have you been a disciple of Christ??

i think the reason why some of us wrote what we wrote to you was because some of us have been down this road that you are talking about. i personally have walked the hard road of feeling like if i sinned, i lost my salvation and that i would have to repent and then God would come back into my heart until the next sin. but you know what?? God showed me that i am His son and that He has planted His Seed within me and hebrews 13 shows us that God will discipline and strive with His children because we are His.

i wholeheartedly agree that we should not willfully sin. amen to that. but if you continue this line of thinking, you will find out that this stupid thing called the flesh will continually gnaw at you and sometimes you will give in to it. you shouldn't, but it happens to us (a bad temper, gossip, lust, focusing earthly more than heavenly, etc). it happens to all of us, but it doesn't excuse it, ya know?? i think that is what many of us are trying to say. we sin, we shouldn't, but we do. but it does not and should not be a lifestyle of sin. if it is, then we need to repent and actually turn from our sin.

but if you think that you lose your salvation at every sin, then you are in for a long, hard road that will be very burdensome and weary. once again for the hundreth time, that is not a license to sin (God forbid). i think that you have correctly identified that we should not sin, but i think you have not truly seen the struggles of a believer in dealing with the flesh, the lusts of the world and the law. this is merely my opinion of what i believe that i see regarding your posts, i would just ask you to please keep this in mind and prayer while reading the scriptures.. love you man.

Lkid,

You are wrong. His view has much more hope than yours does. He can please God through the grace given to him, while others believe they can never please God. His view has hope because his life is not a spit in the eye of God, but a redeemable life, a life of victory in the Holy Spirit.
God has said in His word over... and over... and over... and over again that His commands are not grievous, His burdens are not light, that you can perform what He has asked you to do (in Christ Jesus is ALL pertaining to LIFE and GODLINESS... unless you get your holiness from a different well- there is an EVERLASTING supply).
Why do you prefer the devil's yoke of sin to God's yoke of love?
Love the Lord Your God with all your heart, and all your strength, and all your mind.
I doubt that ANY of us have striven to blood against our sin!! How dare we say His grace isn't enough when we haven't even TRIED the narrow road which few find and travel?
The person who walks the "Highway of Holiness" though a fool shall not go astray. But it is not for the unclean, but the clean.
Trust Jesus!

I loved it. Well said. And by the way, brother, there is a mistake in what you wrote.
" His burdens are NOT light". :-) Just somthing, nevermind.

Yesterday I fell on my face three times that I know of... and by this, I mean I can identify them as sin.

1. I was lazy at work and in studying for GRE.

2. A homeless woman came up to me and asked me for directions to a church she was looking for where she and her children could stay... instead of walking with her I just pointed her in the direction of the church, or where I thought it was and then got into my car and drove away. Might has well have been the road to Jericho.

3. Had an argument with my room mate about the fact that I wasn't consistent in locking the front door, or cleaning out 'all' of the lint in the dryer, and the location of the garbage can in the bathroom. I called my room mate paranoid and neurotic... I was wrong, I was immature and not Christlike -I didn't apologize until thismorning (so much for going to your brother before you sleep).

Hopefully I'll do better today.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19187&forum=34]some meditation........[/url]

Nile wrote:
Logic, you missed the points I was making. I'll try to be more explicit next time.

Nile wrote:
If I died in the midst of this sin, would I be justified of it? That is, did I lose my justification before God?
I believe yes, I lost my justification before God.

Nile wrote:
When I said "relationship" I was thinking a saving relationship.

Nile wrote:
If we sin, it shows that we have no faith, thus no relationship....
...Same thing.

Nile wrote:

[b]Hebrews 10:26-27[/b] [color=990000]For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,
[b]:27[/b] but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile.[/color]

I'd consider this eisegesis, inserting things into the text that aren't there.

If the word sin in this verse is prestent, active, plure, that would mean that one is "preasently doing sin[b][size=small]s[/size][/b] and will continue to sin", therefor, this one is not saved.
This is not eisegesis.

If you rebel against God and sin, guess what - you're living a life of sin.

I hope I am not only misunderstanding you, However, I do hope that you agree to all this.

he may be able to please God but he must fear that he may sin at his last breath. Thats fear, not hope. Do you think we will be perfected in this life and this body?

Somehow we're all totally confused Logic ^_^

The only relationship with Christ is one that saves, there is no other relationship with Him.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.

Those who say they know Him ought to ____.
Those who say they know Him but don't [from above], ____.

This is from the greek, The "prestent active plure." are the tense, Case, and number of the word sin.

If the word sin in this verse is prestent, active, plure, that would mean that one is "preasently doing sins and will continue to sin", therefor, this one is not saved.
This is not eisegesis.

If I stumble in a sin, I am not rebeling against God, I am only weak.

If I stumble in a sin, I am not rebeling against God, I am only weak.
If I sin once, I am not "living a life of sin"
Christains do not plan sin, that is to rebel.
To sin and stay in it is living a life of sin.

Either you are living unto the Father or you are not.
Either you are living in Christ or you are not.
Either you are living by Holy Spirit or you are not.

No middle ground here. If you sin, you cease to live unto the Father, you cease to live in Christ, and you cease to live by the Spirit. You are no longer living a life of holiness, but of sin.

Until you come back to the Father in repentance, and indeed, until you repent, you are continuing in a life of sin.

...

Whew, I'm getting worn out by all of this. I'm going out of town tomorrow morning and won't be back until Tuesday, so I will not likely respond after today until then.

Thanks for the talk though, this is good sharpening.

Nile

Lkid wrote:
he may be able to please God but he must fear that he may sin at his last breath. Thats fear, not hope. Do you think we will be perfected in this life and this body?

I have no such fear any more than Paul had such a fear.

i'm a child of God
then i sin
Then i'm not a child of God
then i repent
Then i am a child of God
then i sin again
then i'm not a child of God
then i repent....????

Nile wrote:

How would you fill in these blanks:

Those who say they know Him ought to ____.
Those who say they know Him but don't [from above], ____.

Nile wrote:
You can sin without rebeling against God?!
Amazing!
What sin is this that does not rebel against the law, love, and Spirit of God?

Secret faults are those which I have committed without knowing that they were sins, sins of ignorance;

Nile wrote:
Either you are living unto the Father or you are not.
Either you are living in Christ or you are not.
Either you are living by Holy Spirit or you are not.

No middle ground here. If you sin, you cease to live unto the Father, you cease to live in Christ, and you cease to live by the Spirit. You are no longer living a life of holiness, but of sin.

Until you come back to the Father in repentance, and indeed, until you repent, you are continuing in a life of sin.

The fact is that true Christins are grieved the moment they sin. They do not dwell in sin as you imply.
As for those secret faults that are mentioned in Psalm 19:12, I doubt that a christian "ceases to live unto the Father, or ceases to live in Christ, or ceases to live by the Spirit" in those secret faults.

Lkid wrote:
i'm a child of God
then i sin
Then i'm not a child of God
then i repent
Then i am a child of God
then i sin again
then i'm not a child of God
then i repent....????

If one is foolish and immature, then yes.
"Must you lay once again a foundation of repentance?"

I'm not proposing something outrageous, it's simple: Love God and Love others.

Those who say they know Him ought to act like it?
I don't get it, what realy should go in the blanks?

There are multiple answers.

Those who say they know Him ought to [u]walk in the light, as He is in the light[/u].
Those who say they know Him, but do not walk in the light, as He is in the light, [u]lie, and do not practice the truth[/u].

Those who say they know Him ought to [u]keep His commandments[/u].
Those who say they know Him, but do not keep His commandments, [u]are liars and the truth is not in them[/u].

Those who say they know Him ought [u]not to sin[/u].
Those who say they know Him, but sin, [u]have not seen Him or known Him[/u].

ect.

Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse me from secret faults

First, I have not studied this verse very much, but here is my cursory analysis:

1. This verse is in the psalms which are poetic; the author is not trying to defend a doctrine of "sinning without knowing it".
2. I can think of only two other verses that would even seem to support this idea of "sinning without knowing it".
3. I can think of many many verses that oppose this idea of "sinning without knowing it".
4. I can think of verses that [u]directly[/u] contradict the idea of "sinning without knowing it".
5. The idea that you can "sin without knowing it" offends my conscience; it does not seem right. Some may scoff, but I believe God has given men a proper sense of justice. All of God's way are just, and understandably so.
6. I see no evidence in my own life that I have ever "sinned without knowing it".
7. The concept of "sinning without knowing it" is not expressed in human government. If you were ignorant of committing a sin (such as committing treason unwittingly by delivering a treasonous letter for friend, of which you thought to be nothing special) you are not held guilty.

Here are some commentaries on the verse that I believe shed light on it:

Wesley:
Psa 19:12 - Who - Thy law, O Lord, is holy and just and good. But I fall infinitely short of it. Cleanse - Both by justification, through the blood of thy son; and by sanctification thro' thy holy spirit. Though the first may seem to be principally intended, because he speaks of his past sins. Secret - From the guilt of such sins as were secret either, from others; such as none knows but God and my own conscience: or, from myself; such as I never observed, or did not discern the evil of. Pardon my unknown sins, of which I never repented particularly, as I should have done.

Clarke:
Who can understand his errors? - It is not possible, without much of the Divine light, to understand all our deviations from, not only the letter, but the spirituality, of the Divine law. Frequent self-examination, and walking in the light, are essentially necessary to the requisite degree of spiritual perfection.
Cleanse thou me from secret faults - From those which I have committed, and have forgotten; from those for which I have not repented; from those which have been committed in my heart, but have not been brought to act in my life; from those which I have committed without knowing that they were sins, sins of ignorance; and from those which I have committed in private, for which I should blush and be confounded were they to be made public.

Barnes:
Cleanse thou me from secret faults - The word here rendered secret means that which is hidden, covered, concealed. The reference is to those errors and faults which had been hidden from the eye of him who had committed them, as well as from the eye of the world. The sense is, that the law of God is so spiritual, and so pure, and so extended in its claims, that the author of the psalm felt that it must embrace many things which had been hidden even from his own view - errors and faults lying deep in the soul, and which had never been developed or expressed. From these, as well as from those sins which had been manifest to himself and to the world, he prayed that he might be cleansed. These are the things that pollute the soul; from these the soul must be cleansed, or it can never find permanent peace. A man who does not desire to be cleansed from all these “secret faults” cannot be a child of God; he who is a child of God will pray without ceasing that from these pollutions of the soul he may be made pure.

I thank you very much logic for bringing this verse to my mind :-)

Sounds like you think that Christians stay in sin for a while, then repent after they get their fill of the flesh.

The fact is that true Christins are grieved the moment they sin. They do not dwell in sin as you imply.

As for those secret faults that are mentioned in Psalm 19:12, I doubt that a christian "ceases to live unto the Father, or ceases to live in Christ, or ceases to live by the Spirit" in those secret faults.

It's an honest question, I'd like to know what you consider these sins to be and why.

...

It seems like my posts just keep getting longer :-P

With God,
Matt

i'm not sure i understand your reply. How long ago were you saved? Is this not what you are saying is the pattern of your walk? A person is saved and filled with the Spirit of God. But since no man has walked perfect after salvation yet their life pattern will still have sin in it, though hopefully less and less as we grow more and more in love with Jesus as we are"filled with all spiritual knowledge" over time. It doesn't happen all at once. so a man will be saved, be led of the Lord, turn aside, sin, repent, and do it all over again.

No man has walked perfectly immediately after salvation until his death. Not Paul, not Peter, no one. I don't bring this up to excuse sin. By no means! God wants us to stop sinning, but He knows our frame. Thank God for His grace. Grace is not there, by the way because of sin. Grace is there because of who God is.

On another note, there is a difference between transgression and iniquity. do you know it?

if a believing mans family is killed in front of him and then he too is killed does he go to hell because he died angry? Don't ridicule. In the west this may be very rare. In the middle east and other areas it is common.

The thread asks: Do You Sin? ...

if i don't, then i'm doing an awful lot of repenting for nothing ...

Of course i don't do the BIG sins most of us see as totally taboo, but i still got my share of what might be conciderd little ones, those little leavining ones that if not also held captive, can still spoil the lump ...

An example, in my BC days i was a champion "cusser", filthy mouthed, spouting expletives like poetry ... i don't do that (overtly) anymore, but within my mind (covertly) i (still) really have to hold every thought captive ... i can be driving, praying to and praising God as i go, and another driver will make a dumb move and before i know it a curse will want to come out of my mouth, i choke it, but think it instead - so i instantly do a 1 John 1:9 ... These incidents are fewer and further apart as i walk with God, but they're no completely gone ... So i'm very well aware of the following scripture ...

[b]Jas.3[/b]
[6] And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
[8] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
[9] Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
[10] Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Then there's (to every man) Christ's convicting words of ...

[b]Matt.5[/b]
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

... and for the unmarried i think you can put "fornication" in place of "adultery" ... Any man, saved or unsaved, who tells me they NEVER have a lustful thought in this vein i'll believe to be either a straight up liar, or strictly homosexual (which has it own set of convicting scripture) ... i'm 57 years old (with lechery amongst my family curse), been saved 27 years, and while my lust quotient has much diminished (Thank You Jesus!!!) every once in a while - STILL - out of the corner of my eye - WHAM! - and i'm at 1 John 1:9 - AGAIN!

[b]1John.1[/b]
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In [b]Gen.4:6[/b] God told Cain, "sin crouches at the door" ... and it still does ... To believe that one does not sin STILL, even after salvation, is one of those "imaginations" that need to be cast down as the following scripture suggests ...

[b]2Cor.10[/b]
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

If we do not STILL have to battle sin, then why are we in need of Ephesians armour, particularly the breastplate of righteousness? ...

i also believe one of the greatest hinderances to REVIVAL is our blase' attitudes towards repentance because we don't see that we're still (saved) sinners yet prone to sinning ...

For what it's worth this is my two cents on the matter ...

Blessings in our High Priest in heaven who understands our every infirmity, He who has saved us to salvation, and further equiped us to "repent of every unrighteousness' as we go along! ...

Bless Your holy name Lord Jesus! ... :-D

First Post,
If it is in the right thread-Do You Sin?
I quickly read the line of thought.
Did not see any reference to 1 Corinthians 5. especially verse 5. "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
I've never heard this taught on Re. Loosing your salvation everytime you sin--but I think the truth fits.

It appears you could loose your health and even life and yet not your salvation.
I.e. a sinning person is turned over to Satan (who destroys his flesh) repentence after death seems unlikely and if his spirit is yet saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, loosing salvation everytime we sin doesn't fit.
What do you think?

A few years ago I thought one could live a perfect sinless life- that was when the Lord first exposed my many outward sins (and some inward ones as well) but as I have matured in Christ He has shown me how sinful and very deceitful our hearts can be and we have no idea.

What I am refering to is not necessarily 'acts' of sin- as most people think of sin-- but what of sinful attitudes and dispositions?

Things like foolishness, rationalizing, self-deception, procrastination, worry, grumbling...

At one time I thought I lived a completely surrendered life. But the Lord burst my bubble when I discovered with time that there were things I had yet to surrender and I had no idea that I wasn't really surrendered in that area. But he slowly would show me my control, my idolatry in some area. Idolatry is still idolatry -whether we know we are doing it or not. If this is true, then all of us are sinning in some area and we don't even know what it is--until the Lord reveals it.

Again, at one point after the Lord showed me the many idols I had in my life a few years ago, I thought i had repented and was free from all idols -I was- from the ones I 'knew' about. But in time, the Lord reveals more and more that needs to go- and just because we didn't know about them doesn't mean they aren't sin. But thankfully He knows we are not yet perfect and He is compassionate and patient with us.

We all live a life of sin- because many of the 'sins' we commit (or ommit) we don't even recognize at the time.I do believe that if we know we are in sin- yes, we should repent and not do that anymore. We should not live in continual purposeful sin or premeditated sin.

Like someone mentioned sins can be committed or sins of ommission. Maybe we aren't doing something that we are supposed to be doing, maybe we are procrastinating about something- whatever the case may be- we are still sinning. I really doubt that anyone here is going to say they are free from all sins of commission, ommission, attitudes and dipositions. Can anyone here say that they act lovingly toward every single person in their life 100% of the time, every minute, every hour? Does no one here procrastinate(waste God's precious time)? Does anyone here have complete patience with everything and everyone every hour and minute of the day? Does anyone here innwardly grumble or complain? Does anyone have a rebellious thought, are you defensive, compulsive, using your tongue to tear down or gossip? Do you ever fear others? (fear of man) These are all sins.

We are all prone to wander. We all sin and have no idea what is in our hearts really - until the Lord reveals it and it is usually an area of pride. We think we are so 'good', so sinless. I know I believed that about myself at one time. O, how little i knew of my real heart! How I had sins that were hidden- not necessarily 'pet' sins.

Everyday I can look back upon my day and identify ways I have sinned. EVERY day. I wasted time on the computer instead of cleaning my kitchen, I thought an angry thought about my neighbor who's trash continually ends up on our lawn (it was just a quick thought and then I let it go, but still a sin), I spoke too harshly with my 8 yr old daughter because she would not pick up her things as quickly as 'I' would like to see it done (we are in a hurry of course), I worried about my weight and how I might appear to others (vanity) and even thought of staying home from a meeting because I thought i looked fat. I remember grumbling before my husband got home for dinner because i knew how hard it would be to fix dinner with the kids around and I was already tired. Must I continue????????

Many of these sins were in my thoughts and noone would have known about them- but still they are sins. Thankfully, most of the time, I can cast the thoughts aside and repent and choose to think biblical thoughts. But I am sure that I don't always do that.

At any of these moments of sin, if I had died, would I go to hell? If so, I would be in fear all day everyday.

One thing I have learned this past year is the clearer meaning of idolatry. If, for instance we feel there is something we must have, even if it is a situation not a thing- 'I must have his love", I must have quiet right now, I must have 'my' sleep right now, I must have her acceptance, I must have control in this situation, I must have my way because her way is wrong- those are all idols. And when we have those thoughts, we are committing idolatry.

I will be the first to admit, as perfectionist as I am, I am not perfect and have finally come to the realization that God does not expect me to be perfect at this moment either. When I lived with the notion that I must live a sinless perfect life, I did not have much peace. I was always striving, striving to be good enough for God. If I could just be a little 'better' then He would love me even more. If I could just reach that point of perfection, He would never cast me away into hell. It is not a peaceful way to live. There is not much joy in that except when you are being 'good' or perfect for the moment.

I know many may quote the verse about being perfect as He is perfect, but i believe that the word 'perfect' is translated as 'mature', not perfect. Someone may clarify that if they may.

Now all I can say is that when I look to the cross, I am never more thankful and more grateful. Because of that cross, even with my mistakes I can be washed clean and I can know that I will see Him face to face one day. Everyday I ask the Lord to be merciful to me, a sinner. and eveyday He is. He shows me where I am lacking or sinning so I can repent and grow and change. But there is always more to go and thankfully He is patient with me.

In His love, Chanin

thank you for that honest and true post
God bless!

Nile wrote:

As for those secret faults that are mentioned in Psalm 19:12, I doubt that a christian "ceases to live unto the Father, or ceases to live in Christ, or ceases to live by the Spirit" in those secret faults.

Ah, I see...so what again are these non-deadly, non-God-offending, non-Spirit-grieving sins that do not make one guilty of breaking the whole law, thus being worthy of death?

It's an honest question, I'd like to know what you consider these sins to be and why.

However, they do not kill the relationship with Christ enough to loose salvation.
Hoever, Take into concideration this:
[b]Romans 4:8[/b] [color=990000]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.[/color]