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Christians & Conservative Republicans Have Only One Choice in 2008

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CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS HAVE ONLY ONE CHOICE IN 2008

By Pastor Chuck Baldwin

August 28, 2007

Let's cut to the chase: conservative Republicans have only one choice for President in 2008: Congressman Ron Paul of Texas. Unlike the GOP frontrunners, Paul is the real deal.

No real conservative could support Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, John McCain, Fred Thompson, or Newt Gingrich. When it comes to historic conservative principles, each of these men is as phony as a three dollar bill. That they are now attempting to cast themselves as conservatives is more than laughable: it is downright hilarious.

For an ongoing review of the major presidential aspirants, I invite readers to visit this web page often.

The more that conservatives (and the rest of America) learn about the GOP's "top tier" candidates, the more they will dislike them. This fact does not bode well for the GOP in the 2008 general election should one of these five men obtain the nomination. Plus, G.W. Bush has forever wasted the antiquated "lesser of two evils" philosophy. As they say here in the south, "That dog won't hunt." Not anymore.

On the whole, Duncan Hunter and Tom Tancredo are head and shoulders above the aforementioned "top tier" candidates, especially on the very important illegal immigration issue. They are also opposed to so-called "free trade" agreements, and they are both pro-Second Amendment. This is a plus. Hunter supports preemptive war, however, and he voted for both the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act, which disqualifies him for President, in my judgment. I confess to liking Tom Tancredo. He strikes me as an honest man and was a bulldog in fighting Bush's amnesty for illegal aliens proposal. However, he also voted for the Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act. Mike Huckabee and Sam Brownback are strong on the life issue, but they are dismal on immigration and Big Brother issues. All that said, it is Ron Paul alone who contains the "whole package."

He has a twenty-year record as a conservative congressman that is virtually unblemished. Unlike the vast majority of congressmen and senators in Washington, D.C., Paul consistently honors his oath of office to support, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. That, all by itself, should be worth a conservative's support.

In fact, Ron Paul has voted against so many unconstitutional bills offered by both Democrats and Republicans that he is known on Capitol Hill as "Dr. No." This moniker comes from both his "no" votes and the fact that Paul is a former medical doctor, an OB/GYN physician who has delivered more than four thousand babies.

If one wants a true photograph of how a congressman or senator votes on conservative, constitutional issues, the best place to look is the Freedom Index in the New American Magazine. Ron Paul almost always ranks as the most conservative congressman from either chamber or either party. His current ranking is 100%, which is a score that few congressmen or senators, except Ron Paul, ever achieve. And Paul does it routinely.

See the Freedom Index here.

Ron Paul's commitment to the sanctity of human life goes beyond rhetoric. He is the man who sponsored H.R. 776, entitled the "Sanctity of Life Act of 2005." Had it passed, H.R. 776 would have recognized the personhood of all unborn babies by declaring that "human life shall be deemed to exist from conception." The bill also recognized the authority of each State to protect the lives of unborn children. In addition, H.R. 776 would have removed abortion from the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, thereby nullifying the Roe v. Wade decision, and would have denied funding for abortion providers. In plain language, H.R. 776 would have ended abortion on demand. (It is more than interesting to me that none of the Religious Right's pet politicians, including George W. Bush, even bothered to support Paul's pro-life bill.)

In addition to being willing to stop the illegal alien invasion, Ron Paul is one of only a handful of congressmen that dares speak out against the emerging North American Union, NAFTA superhighway, and the Security and Prosperity Partnership agreement, all of which are being promoted by the White House in concert with the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).

Another critical issue in next year's election is the gun issue (it is always a critical issue where freedom is concerned). On this issue, Ron Paul stands atop the field. Because Paul truly supports the Constitution, he truly supports "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." Period. Should Ron Paul become President, gun owners would have the best friend they ever had.

For a comprehensive review of the presidential contenders' records on the Second Amendment, click here.

Regarding the war in Iraq and other foreign policy issues, Paul is a traditional conservative of the order of George Washington and Robert Taft. Not ignorant of military matters (he is an Air Force veteran), Paul subscribes to a historical American approach of no entanglements with foreign nations. In fact, in the area of foreign policy, Ron Paul stands alone as a traditional, constitutional, American statesman.

Unlike his neocon counterparts, Ron Paul believes in an independent America. He believes that it is not America's responsibility to police the world. He believes America's political leaders are duty-bound to protect the interests of the United States, not the interests of internationalists. Accordingly, he opposed the unprovoked and preemptive invasion of Iraq. Time has certainly vindicated Dr. Paul's principled position.

In fact, those conservatives who have followed President Bush's preemptive war doctrine are the ones who have abandoned historical conservative principles. Before G.W. Bush changed the landscape, conservatives, especially Christian conservatives, mostly subscribed to Augustine's "just war" theory regarding accepted protocols for the conduct of war. Today, however, many professing conservatives have foolishly followed Bush's "preemptive war" theory, which, before now, was practiced mostly by pagan emperors. Not so with Ron Paul. As a Christian, he still subscribes to "just war."

Of course, Ron Paul believes in protecting America from terrorists. He authored H.R. 3076, the September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001. According to Paul, "A letter of marque and reprisal is a constitutional tool specifically designed to give the president the authority to respond with appropriate force to those non-state actors who wage war against the United States while limiting his authority to only those responsible for the atrocities of that day. Such a limited authorization is consistent with the doctrine of just war and the practical aim of keeping Americans safe while minimizing the costs in blood and treasure of waging such an operation."

If the United States government had listened to Ron Paul, we would not have lost nearly 3,500 American soldiers and Marines, spent over $1 trillion, and gotten bogged down in an endless civil war from which there is no equitable extraction. Furthermore, had we listened to Dr. Paul, Osama bin Laden would no doubt be dead, as would most of his al-Qaeda operatives, and we would be less vulnerable to future terrorist attacks, instead of being more vulnerable, which is the case today.

[i]And speaking of Christianity, Ron Paul's testimony is clear. He has publicly acknowledged Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. And for Paul, this is not political posturing, it is a genuine personal commitment. This is easily demonstrated by the fact that he does not wear his Christianity on his sleeve, as do so many politicians (of both parties).

Just recently, Ron Paul said these words, "I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator."

Could conservative Christians ask for a testimony that is any clearer?[/i]*

Should Ron Paul win the Republican nomination, he would almost certainly win the general election. His constitutional, common-sense ideals would be attractive to such a broad range of voters, I dare say that he would win a landslide victory, no matter who the Democrats nominated. Conservatives, independents, libertarians, union members, and even some liberals (mostly those who oppose the war in Iraq and Bush's Big Brother schemes) would support Ron Paul. The challenge is winning the Republican nomination.

Face it: the big money interests, the Chamber of Commerce crowd, the international bankers and GOP hierarchy will never support Dr. Paul. He is too honest, too ethical, too constitutional, and too independent for their liking. Therefore, the only chance Ron Paul has of winning the Republican nomination is for every Christian, every conservative, and every constitutionalist within the GOP to get behind him.

Conservative Republicans have only one choice for President in 2008: Ron Paul.

[url=http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin394.htm]Original Link - NewsWithViews[/url]

* emphasis mine (Corey_H)

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ccchhhrrriiisss

I disagree. There are [u]several[/u] choices. The question is whether or not Ron Paul is the "best" choice.

While I disagree with some of the points in this article (as well as some of the positions of Ron Paul), he seems to be a good candidate. In fact, I agree with many of his ideas. However, he is not doing very well in ANY of the [url=http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08rep.htm]scientific polling[/url]. While he might be a good choice during the primaries, I have a strong feeling that he will not even be a candidate by November 2008. Once the voters of each party have nominated a candidate through the primaries, I have a feeling that our choice will be limited to either a popular Republican or a popular Democrat -- or a "third party" (or even "no party") political statement.

Nonetheless, I am fervently praying for our nation as we move closer to this election. My biggest concerns lay with the possible appointments of activist federal judges (including those on the Supreme Court).

:-)

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I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do.

I have worked tirelessly to defend and restore those rights for all Americans, born and unborn alike. The right of an innocent, unborn child to life is at the heart of the American ideal of liberty. My professional and legislative record demonstrates my strong commitment to this pro-life principle.


Ron Paul is a man of faith. He is a Protestant Christian and a regular churchgoer.

Ron Paul is pro-life. As a specialist in obstetrics/gynecology, he has delivered more than 4,000 babies. Dr. Paul is not just an opponent of partial-birth abortion; he is an opponent of abortion itself. He is also opposed to federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.

Ron Paul is a believer in family values. Unlike many Christian "leaders" and Republican politicians who have admitted to adulterous affairs and/or been married multiple times, Dr. Paul has been married to the same woman for fifty years. He and his wife have been blessed with five children and seventeen grandchildren.

Ron Paul is opposed to same-sex marriage. Although he doesn’t want to strip homosexuals of their civil rights, he has voted to prohibit federal funding for the joint adoption of a child between individuals who are not related by blood or marriage.

Ron Paul is a patriot. He served as a flight surgeon in the U.S. Air Force from 1963 to 1967. He opposes federal court jurisdiction over the question of whether the phrase "under God" should be included in the pledge of allegiance.

Ron Paul is opposed to unrestricted immigration. Because he believes that true citizenship requires cultural connections and an allegiance to the United States, he favors an end to birthright citizenship. And because he believes that it insults legal immigrants, he does not favor amnesty for illegal immigrants in any form. He opposes welfare state subsidies for illegal immigrants that alienate taxpayers and breed suspicion of immigrants. Dr. Paul also believes that all federal government business should be conducted in English.

Ron Paul is opposed to gun control. Not only does he believe that gun control makes people demonstrably less safe, he also thinks it’s a myth that gun control reduces crime. Representative Paul introduced legislation in Congress that would have repealed waiting periods and instant background checks.

Ron Paul is a strict constitutionalist. He never votes for legislation unless the proposed measure is expressly authorized by the Constitution. He has consistently voted to lower or abolish federal taxes, spending, and regulation. Congressman Paul was recently recognized, for the tenth year in a row, as a "Taxpayer’s Friend" by the National Taxpayers Union.

Ron Paul is opposed to the United Nations. He has introduced legislation to withdraw the United States from the UN. Dr. Paul believes that the UN is rife with corruption. It serves as a forum for rampant anti-Americanism. Instead of being reformed, the UN needs to be renounced. Dr. Paul is against any kind of world government or new world order.

from: http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance109.html

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jordanamo

I'm getting tired of this Ron Paul talk. Yea, he's an impressively unique candidate. But must we get into this fanaticism of politics? The thing I dislike most about Ron Paul isn't him-- but his followers, or "devotees"-- who tend to be superlatively passionate about him. Yes, he's got integrity (rare in the political field), he does stand out, etc. But please, don't overstate it. The more articles/posts I read (new threads for that matter) praising him as a godsend the more I wish he'd just go away. This has been more common on Internet communities such as Reddit/Digg, but I'm seeing it spread to here.

Jordan

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I'm getting tired of this Ron Paul talk. Yea, he's an impressively unique candidate. But must we get into this fanaticism of politics? The thing I dislike most about Ron Paul isn't him-- but his followers, or "devotees"-- who tend to be superlatively passionate about him. Yes, he's got integrity (rare in the political field), he does stand out, etc. But please, don't overstate it. The more articles/posts I read (new threads for that matter) praising him as a godsend the more I wish he'd just go away. This has been more common on Internet communities such as Reddit/Digg, but I'm seeing it spread to here.

I think a "word of mouth" movement for a candidate is much healthier then having to put multi-millions into campaigns with tv ads,etc. He is a viable choice for Americans but the major thing that is stopping him is awareness. And that "is" being achieved in some manner through word of mouth on the internet. I do not think there have been excessive posts about him or political matters on SI. But I do think its worthy for him to be mentioned a few times to christian crowds, I am in support of this.

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Just recently, Ron Paul said these words, "I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. [b]My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator."[/b] - Ron Paul

I find it interesting that during the first public debate when the candidates were asked who did not believe in evolution there were only three candidates that raised their hands, Mike Huckabee, Tom Tancredo, and Sam Brownback.

It's just a thought.
[i](Not that one's creation viewpoints will majorily impact their qualification for presidency...but I was disappointed in Mr. Paul in that he didn't stand up for Creationism and really it's a standing on normal interpretation of Scripture.)[/i]

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Ron who?????????

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moe_mac wrote:
Corey where you get all these articles at. I see moderator traits in you. if SI ever has a vacant spot.

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Bomar

I find it interesting that during the first public debate when the candidates were asked who did not believe in evolution there were only three candidates that raised their hands, Mike Huckabee, Tom Tancredo, and Sam Brownback.

Well, even Kent Hovind would admit that he believes in evolution....you would just have to define which type (which wasn't done in the debate). There were 5 types, and he does believe in 1 type...I believe "macro" evolution, which means variations within a kind. He does not believe in "micro" evolution (please forgive me if I swapped these) - new genetic material being formed, nor cosmic (universe evolve), chemical (elements evolved), or biological (life itself evolved) evolution. Now, this is "Doctor Dino" himself admitting that 1 type of evolution is valid. I know that seems like a loophole, and maybe missed the spirit of the question, but when 9 people are only allowed to "raise their hand", it's not really presenting them with a valid forum to explain what they mean by "I believe".

On a side note, I think Mr. Hovind would highly agree with everythign Mr. Paul stands for...eliminating the IRS, no gun control, pro-life....not sure if that is a good endorsement or not though :-o

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Bomar

Ron Paul On Homeschooling
Posted August 22nd, 2007 by MrGoldMongoose
Jul. 29, 2007 - Ron Paul Congratulates Homeschoolers, September 26, 2000
CONGRATULATING HOME EDUCATORS AND HOME SCHOOLED STUDENTS
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Statement of HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS

[Page: H8187]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to support H. Res. 578, which celebrates the accomplishments of parents across the nation who have chosen to educate their children at home by designating the first week of October as `National Home Schooling Week.' While serving in Congress, I have had the opportunity to get to know many of the home-schooling parents in my district. I am very impressed by the job these parents are doing in providing their children with a quality education. I have also found that home schooling parents are among the most committed activists in the cause of advancing individual liberty, constitutional government, and traditional values. I am sure my colleagues on the Education Committee would agree that the support of home schoolers was crucial in defeating the scheme to implement a national student test.

Home schooling is becoming a popular option for parents across the country. In Texas alone, there are approximately 75,000 home schooling families educating an average of three children per household. Home schooling is producing some outstanding results. For example, according to a 1997 study the average home schooled student scores near the 19th percentile on standardized academic achievement tests in reading, mathematics, social studies, and science. Further proof of the success of home schooling is the fact that in recent years, self-identified home schoolers have scored well above the national average on both the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) and the American College Test (ACT). All home schooled children, regardless of race, income-level, or gender achieve these high scores.

Contrary to media-generated stereotypes portraying home schooled children as isolated from their peers, home schooled children participate in a wide variety of social, athletic, and extra-curricular activities. Home schooling parents have formed numerous organizations designed to provide their children ample opportunity to interact with other children. In fact, recent data indicates that almost 50 percent of home schooled children engage in extra-curricular activities such as group sports and music classes, while a third of home schooled children perform volunteer work in their communities.

Mr. Speaker, to be a home schooling parent takes a unique dedication to family and education. In many cases, home school families must forgo the second income of one parent, as well as incurring the costs of paying for textbooks, computers, and other school supplies. Home schooling parents must pay these expenses while, like All-American families, struggling to pay state, local, and federal taxes.
In order to help home schoolers, and all parents, devote more of their resources to their children's education, I have introduced the Family Education Freedom Act (H.R. 935). This bill provides all parents a $3,000 per child tax credit for K-12 education expenses. This bill will help home school parents to provide their children a first-class education in a loving home environment.

The Family Education Freedom Act will also benefit those parents who choose to send their children to public or private schools. Parents who choose to send their children to private school may use their tax credit to help cover the cost of tuition. Parents who choose to send their children to public schools may use their tax credit to help finance the purchase of educational tools such as computers or extracurricular activities like music programs. Parents may also use the credit to pay for tutoring and other special services for their children.

Mr. Speaker, the best way to improve education is to return control over education resources to the people who best know their children's unique needs: those children's parents. Congress should empower all parents, whether they choose to home school or send their child to a public or private school, with the means to control their child's education. That is why I believe the most important education bill introduced in this Congress is the Family Education Freedom Act.
In conclusion, I once again wish to express my strong support for H. Res. 578 and urge all my colleagues to support this resolution and acknowledge the accomplishments of those parents who have avoided the problems associated with an education controlled by federal `educrats' by choosing to educate their children at home. I also urge my colleagues to help home schoolers, and all parents, ensure their children get a quality education by co-sponsoring the Family Education Freedom Act.

Thanks to: http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Ro...

Note: In addition, Ron Paul has signed a public proclamation in favor of ending government involvement in education. Link provided below:

http://www.schoolandstate.org/home....

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rookie

Ron Paul has no hope in being elected. The reason, his ethics mirrow the Scriptures more closely than any candidate since Jimmy Carter.

In Christ
Jeff

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ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
I disagree. There are [u]several[/u] choices. The question is whether or not Ron Paul is the "best" choice.

Nonetheless, I am fervently praying for our nation as we move closer to this election. My biggest concerns lay with the possible appointments of activist federal judges (including those on the Supreme Court).:-)


[color=0099AA]moe wrote:
Amen on praying for enough people, not to be so deceived, as to elect someone who will nominate more activist judges for the liberals senators to appoint, but let us all remember who did appoint most of the liberal judges we have now. We certainly don't want to elect someone who will ignore the principles of God has in HIS WORD and deceive many by saying "I believe".
I am neither speaking for Ron or against him. I really only know what I have read on SI about him. What I am saying is believing alone isn't enough evidence to get my vote. We sure don't want them if they have the: "what God got to do with it attitude". It is very important to see some evidence of their faith, such as wanting to pleasing to God than men and even wanting to be pleasing to HIM more than to be the president. That type candidate would not be what the world called a good politican and if he got elected he probably would have a very very low approval rating in this present world :-D
James 2:19-20
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
KJV[/color]

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moe_mac wrote:

Corey where you get all these articles at. I see moderator traits in you. if SI ever has a vacant spot.

LOL!!! I'm controversial, opinionistic, impatient... an ex-bartender currently waiting tables full time...and I hate positions of responsibility or authority...

Thanks brother, but modding's not in my DNA. Hehe.

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Hey guys, where can I find the bible passage where the NT Church voted for the Roman government? The only thing I can find in Church history is in the reign of Constantine when the institutional babylon whore church system was founded by merging those were the true Church with the roman government...

I would agree that we only have one option for 2008, but that it is prayer, not a mortal man.

In Christ - Jim

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Actually, Jim, Paul was a Roman citizen who exercised his rights, especially when he was being held captive in Roman prisons.

I think it's naive to think that we should not vote. If your comfortable with what would happen to this world if Christians were completely uninvolved in everything... then go ahead.

But as for me, my way of fighting the murder of unborn children is with my vote, as well as being involved in crisis pregnancy ministries.

There is no prohibition against voting and bring involved in government in the Bible. Some Christians act as tho if it isnt mentioned in scripture, then it's prohibited. Thats a very poor way to approach scripture.

Today we like to think of ourselves as spiritual giants if we refuse to vote, bash America (I hear more Christians bashing America now than I do leftist hippies!) etc... but I dont think that makes one spiritually mature, I think that makes one an ostrich.

As far as Christians needing to vote Republican... I dont know if y'all have noticed, but there isnt much difference between the parties anymore.

Krispy

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Actually, Jim, Paul was a Roman citizen who exercised his rights, especially when he was being held captive in Roman prisons.

Doesn't say much about voting though

think it's naive to think that we should not vote. If your comfortable with what would happen to this world if Christians were completely uninvolved in everything... then go ahead.

I am less comfortable with this world where Christians vote but dont spend hours weeping in prayer.


But as for me, my way of fighting the murder of unborn children is with my vote, as well as being involved in crisis pregnancy ministries.

See above comment

There is no prohibition against voting and bring involved in government in the Bible. Some Christians act as tho if it isnt mentioned in scripture, then it's prohibited. Thats a very poor way to approach scripture

I agree to an extent, and I know that great men of God such as Finney promoted Christian voting, I am more concerned with the right wing republican christian garbage.

Today we like to think of ourselves as spiritual giants if we refuse to vote, bash America (I hear more Christians bashing America now than I do leftist hippies!) etc... but I dont think that makes one spiritually mature, I think that makes one an ostrich.

I think it makes one jealous for the glory of God and true New Testament Christianity, compeltely dissatisfied with the formation of babylon (our so called church system in America that is intertwined with our antichrist government)

As far as Christians needing to vote Republican... I dont know if y'all have noticed, but there isnt much difference between the parties anymore.

I leave on a high note sir, I agree with this statement.

In Christ - Jim

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I am less comfortable with this world where Christians vote but dont spend hours weeping in prayer.

You cant just cast a blanket judgement on all American believers. You dont know who spends hours weeping in prayer, and who doesnt.

Krispy

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Hey guys, where can I find the bible passage where the NT Church voted for the Roman government? The only thing I can find in Church history is in the reign of Constantine when the institutional babylon whore church system was founded by merging those were the true Church with the roman government...

I would agree that we only have one option for 2008, but that it is prayer, not a mortal man.

In Christ - Jim

AMEN.

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi jimdied2sin...

I am less comfortable with this world where Christians vote but dont spend hours weeping in prayer.
I suspect that most of us from SI who happen to vote will only do so [u]AFTER[/u] spending hours weeping in prayer.

This country is sinking deeper to Hell. When compared to much of the rest of the world (in terms of freedom of faith and morality), I realize that I don't WANT this country to look like other countries (particularly Europe). As a married man who cares deeply for his wife, I will exercise my vote -- which is simply my voice about what matters most.

Our national leaders do not come to power following a [i]coup d'état[/i]. Rather, they are elected into their position by an accumulation of single votes. We are provided the opportunity to provide our voice to the people of this government. Why squander the opportunity only to complain later?

Ironically, the people who tend to complain the loudest AFTER an election are either the ones who voted for the other candidate OR the ones who didn't even vote at all. The former have a right to voice their criticisms. While their party didn't win, they don't want to lose their beliefs. They tend to shout louder and more often. The latter (the ones who failed to vote), however, suddenly feel empowered to make their voice heard only AFTER the election. Why offer a voice now about the condition and laws of this nation if you failed to do anything to prevent it from happening in the first place?

A great majority of Americans believe that a great majority of Americans are pro-abortion. Why? The statistics can be interpreted either way. While a slight majority believe in limited freedom of abortion (i.e. to protect the life of the mother), the vast majority believe in limits to abortion. Yet the pro-abortion crowd rallies YEAR ROUND about the dangers of losing their "rights." They offer slanted statistics to validate their cause. And the American Christians? Oh, a few show up to rallies. Many of them, however, are a little, uh, "strange."

Believers seem quite content to watch the world move around them and neglect to feel "called" to get involved. Yet they feel the "liberty" to complain about the godlessness of the present changing age. They argue that since the darkness is inevitable -- why try to stop it? Yet they fail to remember godly men like William Wilberforce, George Whitefield, Lyman Beecher and Charles Finney -- who were some of the most vocal opponents of slavery. Believers in that day also felt the Lord's return was imminent -- yet still remained hopeful for a move of God in this present world. What makes us think that the merciless slaughter of unborn children is not just as noble or worthwhile a cause?

- I choose to vote BECAUSE it will reflect my voice to this nation.
- I choose to vote BECAUSE I want to provide a better life for my wife and future children.
- I choose to vote BECAUSE of the permissiveness of sinful lifestyles over the past few decades -- and the desire by certain political parties to embrace the lifestyle as "normal" itself.
- I choose to vote so that my future children might be protected from laws protecting dangerous individuals.
- I choose to vote so that my "freedoms" are not limited to the spiritual realm.
- I choose to vote so that history does not repeat itself (ala WWI and WWII), along with the atrocities committed.
- I choose to vote so that America, this once "shining city on a hill," will not resemble the religious apathy of Europe.
- I choose to vote so that this nation's judges will not shut out the world of God and legally replace it with godless humanism.
- I choose to vote so that my wife and future children will not see pornography on billboards outside of our home that is protected because it is considered "artistically tasteful."
- I choose to vote because I see that the situation merits enough importance that I should participate.

Religious isolation and non-involvement have never worked very well. The groups that long for the isolation tend to end up getting involved anyway via the "secondhand smoke" of the legal system. In fact, even the Amish have lawyers now (in order to protect them from encroaching laws). Ask any church or ministry that has ever been sued -- and you'll realize how "involved" you already are. Ask any street preacher who has needed help in the legal system after having been arrested for preaching in public.

While I'm not certain which candidate I will vote for in November 2008, I can assure you that (at all costs) I will cast a vote. My country and family are far too important for me to neglect doing so.

:-)

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Bomar

Although abortion is a miserable wicked thing, there are also other issues of righteousness that we should consider as well.

But the scriptures clearly teach the following as being wicked:

- Lying
- Flattering
- Not honoring your word
- Being a hypocrite
- Living beyond your means
- Going into debt
- Being wasteful
- Stealing
- Rewarding laziness
- Divorce and adultery

These are all issues of righteousness, and issues of character. Almost every presidential candidate (and most politicians) will fail on most, if not all of these issues, except for Ron Paul. A cursory glance at Proverbs clearly shows that these are also values that God holds and should be considered "Biblical" along with defending the unborn.

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Amen jimdiedtosin: I wished I had said that. I need to pray for direction in everything. But if I already now where the person or the party has stood on Godly issues and is stil standing, If I pray, God might say, did fall off a turnip truck, have you been on another planet or what.

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- I choose to vote BECAUSE it will reflect my voice to this nation.
- I choose to vote BECAUSE I want to provide a better life for my wife and future children.
- I choose to vote BECAUSE of the permissiveness of sinful lifestyles over the past few decades -- and the desire by certain political parties to embrace the lifestyle as "normal" itself.
- I choose to vote so that my future children might be protected from laws protecting dangerous individuals.
- I choose to vote so that my "freedoms" are not limited to the spiritual realm.
- I choose to vote so that history does not repeat itself (ala WWI and WWII), along with the atrocities committed.
- I choose to vote so that America, this once "shining city on a hill," will not resemble the religious apathy of Europe.
- I choose to vote so that this nation's judges will not shut out the world of God and legally replace it with godless humanism.
- I choose to vote so that my wife and future children will not see pornography on billboards outside of our home that is protected because it is considered "artistically tasteful."
- I choose to vote because I see that the situation merits enough importance that I should participate.

Amen, Chris. You're right on the money.

Krispy

I
iansmith

I personally like Huckabee... but then I realize I hate politics.

S
sermonindex

What difference does it make who gets in. Bush is a so called Christian, he's a republican and more laws are being passed against Christianity regardless, so what difference does it make who gets in??

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Compliments...

The same argument can be made about cleaning your house. Why clean it if it's going to get dirty again? Why wash your clothes if they are just going to get dirty? Why buy a car if it will break down one day? Why evangelize if the bulk of the world will not listen?

The point is that this nation permits each citizen to share their voice (vote). If you want to prevent the anti-Christian activist judges from being appointed, then vote for a person who you perceive will refrain from doing so.

As for me, the "reasonable" massacre of millions of unborn children through abortion is issue enough to warrant my vote.

:-(

S
sermonindex

As for me, the "reasonable" massacre of millions of unborn children through abortion is issue enough to warrant my vote.

Is it issue enough to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center

Is it issue enough to keep us up at night weeping before God

Is it issue enough to take us into the slums and ghettos of our cities late at night where the homeless, gangs and addicts gather (and a great number of abortions come from) to risk our lives in offering not only the reality and hope of Christ for these people but to tell them that God now commands all men everywhere to repent

Is it enough for us to stand on a street corner and become of no repuation amongst our peers declaring that God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world, including this wicked nation that is under His wrath, in rightousness

Is it enough to mess up our comfortable little christian lives by taking in a pregnant teenager to our homes and giving up our money and time to care for her and the baby she really deep down inside doesnt want to abort while sharing the Gospel of reconciliation with her.

These are the questions that I am interested in... and I pray we all will be too. Voting comes at the bottom of this list for me, after I can say yes to all of the above questions (which will truly glorify God) then I will consider checking a box on a piece of paper something worth pursuing.

In Christ - Jim

S
sermonindex

Compliments said,

What difference does it make who gets in. Bush is a so called Christian, he's a republican and more laws are being passed against Christianity regardless, so what difference does it make who gets in??

I don't mean to offend, so if this comes out the wrong way, just chalk it up to my unlearnedness...

Compliments, you sound utterly despondent when it comes to politics.

What sphere of life can the Lord not touch? Is it impossible for Him to intercede on the behalf of an entire nation, to anoint a godly leader?

The Lord told us that a man with faith as small as a mustard seed could move mountains - what's a king or a politician next to a mountain?

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Jim...

Is it issue enough to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center

Is it issue enough to keep us up at night weeping before God

Is it issue enough to take us into the slums and ghettos of our cities late at night where the homeless, gangs and addicts gather (and a great number of abortions come from) to risk our lives in offering not only the reality and hope of Christ for these people but to tell them that God now commands all men everywhere to repent

Is it enough for us to stand on a street corner and become of no repuation amongst our peers declaring that God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world, including this wicked nation that is under His wrath, in rightousness

Is it enough to mess up our comfortable little christian lives by taking in a pregnant teenager to our homes and giving up our money and time to care for her and the baby she really deep down inside doesnt want to abort while sharing the Gospel of reconciliation with her.

You can do all of the above AND still vote.
These are the questions that I am interested in... and I pray we all will be too. Voting comes at the bottom of this list for me, after I can say yes to all of the above questions (which will truly glorify God) then I will consider checking a box on a piece of paper something worth pursuing.
Yet, if a person truly wants to stop abortion, they can "lay the axe to the root." While the true root is selfishness, there was not a national problem with abortion until 1973's Supreme Court decision calling it a "right to privacy." Of course, the pro-abortion crowd will claim that women and girls will continue to murder their unborn children with coat hangers. While the practice did occur, it was not nearly as widespread as some would have us believe. Limiting the legality of such a procedure will save a multitude of lives while also protecting women from the awful psychological scars that remain for an entire lifetime!

Besides, no matter how much the Church preached and wailed against slavery -- it still existed in the Western world for centuries! It wasn't until men exercised their rights as citizens (i.e. William Wilburforce, etc...) that the practice ended. While this might not seem to matter in the scope of eternity -- it mattered GREATLY to the slaves and children of slaves. The same is true with abortion. Weep, wail and preach against it all you want. But if you want to put an end to it -- why not do all of the above AND ALSO VOTE?

The primary focus of our existence should be on the unseen. However, most of us still remain living in this world. While we participate in the affairs of this world, we do so from an eternal perspective. Besides, most of us still eat, work "secular" jobs, go to the doctor, purchase insurance, obey the traffic laws, etc... We are even forced to purchase our Bibles using something as "worldly" as money! God is more than able to provide for our needs -- but he will not counterfeit currency so that we can pay our bills. I haven't heard any reports of modern provisions of "manna." The Lord holds men accountable for taking care of their families. One way to do this is by sharing our "voice" (our "vote") in matters that affect our families.

Is it a compromise? It is no more compromise with the world than using the currency of this nation to pay our bills.

:-)

S
sermonindex

some fair points to ponder brother...

J
jordanamo

sermonindex said:
I think a "word of mouth" movement for a candidate is much healthier then having to put multi-millions into campaigns with tv ads,etc. He is a viable choice for Americans but the major thing that is stopping him is awareness. And that "is" being achieved in some manner through word of mouth on the internet. I do not think there have been excessive posts about him or political matters on SI. But I do think its worthy for him to be mentioned a few times to christian crowds, I am in support of this.

I've witnessed much contradiction on SI before, but this is amazing. I find an odd partiality here concerning politics on SI. Specifically when the discussion is concerning the 2008 US presidential election, there are few objections raised (at least when in support of Ron Paul or a Republican).

But when the discussion turns to being in negative reaction/criticism of the current Administration, I always find people quote [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14144&forum=13&3]this[/url], from the rules,

"It is not a place for politics, politicians, policy's nor particular support thereof."

That sounds pretty clear to me, don't you think? This thread should be locked. As you've locked other politically-involved threads.

Personally I don't believe you should curtail political discussions at all, but if you are going to, stick with your own word and rules, and don't be partial to your own interests when they contradict the rules you set up/propagate for everyone.

Jordan

C
Compton

Krispy...

...leftist hippies

You say that like it's a bad thing. ;-)

MC

S
sermonindex

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Oh my... is that what you thought I implied??? :-o

...lol

Krispy

M
myfirstLove

Hi brothers,

Very interesting thread. It seems some have lost understanding that God is truly in control.

God is the one who raises up leaders, not us.

Daniel 2:21
And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding.

All the leaders in the world have all been raised up by God, yes even the evil leaders. Leaders are His servants to get His will accomplished, especially among His children.

Have you not read that He called the Assyrians and other evil leaders and countries HIS SERVANTS. He calls them His servants because He uses them to do His will. Notice when Isreal rebel God raises up an evil leader to persecute His children, to humble them.

Proverbs 21:1
The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD,Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Proverbs 8:14-16
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles,
All the judges of the earth.

Who's really in control? Not man.

2 Samuel 7:14
I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.

God uses men to chasten His people. Will God use Hilary to do the same?

Who ever the next leader will be, God is the one who picked him/her, not you. He will move many hearts to pick the leader He wants. You, christians just need to look to God and not man.

Isaiah 31:1
Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help,And rely on horses, Who trust in chariots because they are many, And in horsemen because they are very strong, But who do not look to the Holy One of Israel, Nor seek the LORD!

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the LORD Than to put confidence in man.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus says the LORD: “ Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.

Proverbs 25:19
Confidence in an unfaithful man in time of trouble Is like a bad tooth and a foot out of joint.

So we see, If His people would turn from their wicked ways, pray and humble themselves, God will heal the land, like raise up a righteos leader. He didn't say If my people would vote than I will heal the land. Taking the focus off the sin of the church again. If we want wickedness to stop abounding then we His people MUST turn from our wicked ways and humble ourselves.

But, I believe that the majority of Christians have to go thru persecution to be cleanse, not trying to be negative. If that has to happen to cleanse the elect than so be it for the glory of God and His bride!

Lisa

S
sermonindex

So we see, If His people would turn from their wicked ways, pray and humble themselves, God will heal the land, like raise up a righteos leader. He didn't say If my people would vote than I will heal the land. Taking the focus off the sin of the church again. If we want wickedness to stop abounding then we His people MUST turn from our wicked ways and humble ourselves.

No one here is arguing against the first point of the above paragraph. We all agree, and thats why this website and this forum exist... because the majority of us hear are longing for and crying for revival.

The second part of your paragraph makes no sense to me. God uses men to bring about His will. While Hitler obviously played an important role in human history, and I believe his role was to usher in the set for the end times... God also used men to put a stop to His plans to eliminate the Jewish people.

Christians can and should let their voices be heard. If all Christians withdrew from society and culture and did not paticipate in a positive and godly way... can you imagine how evil things would be?

Your kind of thinking is scarey to me, and is not Biblical.

Krispy

S
sermonindex


From community rules:

*Politics

We have found it necessary to curtail political discussion here for a variety of reasons. It is primarily out of step with the manner and thrust of Sermon Index in it's intention and we have found little good to come from an allowance of things based politically into the discussions. It is unfortunate, but the results have shown that policy and pundits of secular government are divisive enough inherently and while that is neither here nor there, it is again that which would have little to do with this sites intentions. Moreover, where we have allowed it in the past it is almost always that of the Western hemisphere and largely American politics that wish to be argued over. This is a ministry borne out of Canada and gone out into all the world, rarely has the politics of other nations been brought forth for discussion and overall very little of it has to do with spiritual attributes. For these reasons we ask you to not bring forth political matters.

It is inevitable that with an allowance of items and issues effecting us all by that which is happening in this present world that attributes of a political nature will creep in, this is understood. However, we will keep a very close eye on these things and may ask you to stop midstream or lock a posting if in our discretion we feel that it is out of place in the forum.


----


I do think having a few thread on Ron Paul is healthy so that saints know that there is a Christian man with good values as a viable person to vote for and pray for more importantly. I do want to restrict the amount of talk about politics on the forums overall but this thread has been allowed.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi myfirstLove...

Are you equating the act of voting with "trusting in man?" Hmmm...

Do you work? Do you use legal currency? Do you obey the laws of this land that were enacted by men? Do you put gas in your car? Do you trust the Lord to provide for your needs? What if you did NOT go to work for a few weeks (perhaps to pray, fast or evangelize)? I imagine that your boss wouldn't CARE if you had placed your "trust" solely in the Lord. You still wouldn't receive a paycheck.

A vote is simply a voice! You are not "trusting in man" when you vote for a particular candidate. Was Paul placing his trust in Caesar when he "[i]appealed unto Caesar[/i]?" Rather, you are simply doing a little to let the electorate know what you stand for (or don't stand for). I marvel at how some will pay taxes but refuse to vote! Then others have the audacity to complain about the direction of the nation when they did NOTHING to curtail it! Wait a minute -- people still "pray" for their country. But can't you still [u]pray[/u] and [u]vote[/u]?

Prayer is one thing -- but NOT the ONLY thing! Remember, faith without works is dead. I don't care how much you pray for your family, if you don't work -- you will not eat (as is stated in the Word)! If you don't provide for your family, according to Scripture, you're [i]worse than an infidel![/i]

I'm not saying that it is wrong to NOT vote. I'm just saying that it is wrong to accuse someone of "trusting in man" when they DO vote.

:-)

S
sermonindex

Compliments, you sound utterly despondent when it comes to politics.
Not at all, I was merely making a statement.

S
sermonindex

God is the one who raises up leaders, not us.
Ah, finally some truth!

M
myfirstLove

Chill Krispy... Its o.k.

Please read the verses. You are not the one who chooses leaders. Read the bible.

If we want our land to be heal then it is christians who need to repent, but we are trusting in man to get this land healed. What do you expect from a lost world? America is not our home. Its heaven.


What does the bible say about bringing healing to our land Chris and Krispy? Not what man think is right.

How was leaders use in the bible when it comes to God's people?


Doesn't the word say God is the one who raises and puts down leaders? It is not you who does that.

And Chris is not just about prayer, but turning from our wicked prideful way and humbling ourselves which most american christians are clueless too. And because many american christians do not want to repent we end up putting our trust and dependence on man to get this country healed. Pretty sad.

Chris I'm not saying if a christian just vote thats trusting in man, but I can see in this thread that its more than casting a vote. It is true that many christians are into politics because they don't trust in God. So many christians are putting more sweat into politics than looking to God and you know that is true. You have politics deeply rooted in the house of God.

M
myfirstLove

I think I will bow out of this thread. It seems this thread can easily get ugly.

Every spiritual blessings to all for the glory of God!

S
sermonindex

Chill Krispy... Its o.k.

I'm not fired up. Dont worry.

I agree with Greg. Politics is controversial and rarely ends on a positive note on this forum. I think in the interest of unity among the brethren, we should abandon this thread and focus on topics of eternal signifigance.

Krispy

S
sermonindex

I think in the interest of unity among the brethren, we should abandon this thread and focus on topics of eternal signifigance.

I don't know that unity will necessarily follow the abandonment of controversial issues - or the quest for truth - even when it comes to politics.

If Christians are to remain silent on controversial issues, then we ought not posit an opinion about abortion, stem-cell research, gay marriage, etc.

If, on the other hand, there is a Jehu in America who stands against the Ahabs, Jezebels, and followers of Baal, we ought to "get behind him" like the messengers of Joram.

"So there went one on horseback to meet him, and said, Thus saith the king, Is it peace? And Jehu said, What hast thou to do with peace? turn thee behind me. And the watchman told, saying, The messenger came to them, but he cometh not again." (II KINGS 9:18)

The Parable of the Trees may help to identify an American Jehu.

"The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon." (JUDGES 9:8-15)

Please note that I am not saying everything will be peachy if Ron Paul is elected - but he is an honest man of character and has born much fruit.

I believe it would be a grave sin for America to bypass such a man for another thorn bush.

S
sermonindex


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi myfirstLove...

Are you equating the act of voting with "trusting in man?" Hmmm...

Do you work? Do you use legal currency? Do you obey the laws of this land that were enacted by men? Do you put gas in your car? Do you trust the Lord to provide for your needs? What if you did NOT go to work for a few weeks (perhaps to pray, fast or evangelize)? I imagine that your boss wouldn't CARE if you had placed your "trust" solely in the Lord. You still wouldn't receive a paycheck.

A vote is simply a voice! You are not "trusting in man" when you vote for a particular candidate. Was Paul placing his trust in Caesar when he "[i]appealed unto Caesar[/i]?" Rather, you are simply doing a little to let the electorate know what you stand for (or don't stand for). I marvel at how some will pay taxes but refuse to vote! Then others have the audacity to complain about the direction of the nation when they did NOTHING to curtail it! Wait a minute -- people still "pray" for their country. But can't you still [u]pray[/u] and [u]vote[/u]?

Prayer is one thing -- but NOT the ONLY thing! Remember, faith without works is dead. I don't care how much you pray for your family, if you don't work -- you will not eat (as is stated in the Word)! If you don't provide for your family, according to Scripture, you're [i]worse than an infidel![/i]

I'm not saying that it is wrong to NOT vote. I'm just saying that it is wrong to accuse someone of "trusting in man" when they DO vote.

:-)


moe amened:
ccchhhrrriiisss. The Spirit of the Lord gives the this wisdom you spoke. You know if one does not have that wisdom, he needs to ask for it or be very curious and concerned as to why that wisdom is not present with him/her. You are right on ccchhhrrriiisss.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi myfirstlove...

And Chris is not just about prayer, but turning from our wicked prideful way and humbling ourselves which most american christians are clueless too. And because many american christians do not want to repent we end up putting our trust and dependence on man to get this country healed. Pretty sad.
It is God who can exalt a man, but Satan has been known to ask the Lord for a favor or two from time to time. Remember Job? Remember Hitler? Remember Nero? Just because the Lord [u]allows[/u] something doesn't translate to his ordaining it. He has granted free will to mankind.

Just because SOME (or even a majority) of believers fail to HUMBLE THEMSELVE AND PRAY, it doesn't mean that we should neglect both the spiritual and the natural. In fact, our vote can be completely based upon spiritual reasoning. Why cannot we not REPENT, PRAY [u]and[/u] VOTE?

Chris I'm not saying if a christian just vote thats trusting in man, but I can see in this thread that its more than casting a vote. It is true that many christians are into politics because they don't trust in God. So many christians are putting more sweat into politics than looking to God and you know that is true. You have politics deeply rooted in the house of God.
Is it possible that some Christians are "sweating in politics" BECAUSE they trust in God? Perhaps an individual who truly loves God feels inclined to help shape the nation through the political process. The common (and incorrect) notion is that it is impossible to maintain your faith while involved in the political system. Why? Is it possible to maintain your faith while working a secular job? Is it possible to maintain your faith while paying your taxes? Is it possible to maintain your faith while owning a business (and knowing rules and regulations for small businesses or corporations)? "Politics" does not have to be a dirty word. In fact, the word itself means "[i]of the people[/i]." However, the modern connotation of the word means "the act of influencing policy." Why should believers who care about the well being of their nation and families NOT attempt to exert some sort of influence?

Otherwise, it is hypocritical if they attempt to influence the direction of ANYTHING that appears unspiritual!

Such a believer, thus, would have no say in the schools that their children attend. Such a believer would have no voice in the speed limit in front of their home. A believer would have no voice about the pornography on billboards outside their homes, schools and places of meeting. A believer would have no say in the legislation that attempts to "force" their children to attend public schools -- or learn ungodly principles. Such a believer could not object to the burning of Bibles by a government (ala the Soviet Union). Such a believer could not oppose restrictions on faith.

It is a sad condition when believers cannot discuss such a topic like this without hurt feelings or questions about whom we trust. Alas, we will finish the strongly arguing about something as petty as the role of politics in a believers life (including whether or not he/she should vote) and RETURN to strongly arguing about doctrinal issues like the eternal destination of those who commit suicide.

Ouch!

:-(

P
pastorfrin

Hi Chris,

Some answers to some of your questions.

Should Christians Vote?
As we who are Christians come to understand and appreciate the blessings that God has bestowed upon us, the position in which He has placed us in this world, and the hope that we have for all eternity, I believe we will come to the realization that God has not called us to get involved in the politics of the world. Let us briefly consider the principles from Scripture that suggest that Christians should not vote.
"Our conversation [or citizenship] is in heaven, from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Phil. 3:20). If we are citizens of the United States, we do not go to Canada, Switzerland, Kenya, or any other country to vote in the elections of those countries. By analogy, if we are citizens of heaven, it is inappropriate for us to take part in government elections on earth. We are ambassadors for Christ" (2 Cor. 5:20).
The blessings that we possess as Christians are in heaven. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: ... and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:3; 2:4-6).
Further, we are enjoined by the Lord Jesus, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth ... but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, ... for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matt. 6:19-21). The reason we want to have our hearts centered in heaven is that Christ Himself is there: "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection [or mind] on things above, not on things on the earth" (Col. 3:1-4).
Finally, our whole future for the ages of eternity lies in heaven. "I will come again and receive you unto Myself, that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). "The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shot, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Thus, our citizenship is in heaven, not on earth. Our blessings are in heaven, not on earth. Our treasure is to be laid up in heaven, not on earth. Our mind is to be set on things above, not on things on the earth. And our dweling place for eternity will be in heaven, not on earth. Do not these simple truths speak volumes to us as to our involvement in earthly causes and politics?
In all things we have Christ as our example for our walk here on earth (1 Pet. 2:21; 1 John 2:3-6). If we study His life and walk here on earth, as described in the Gospels, we will find that He was not occupied with trying to influence government officials, alter the laws of the land, or bring about a change in government in His native country. Rather, He was occupied with showing the people their lost, sinful condition (Matt. 18:11; 22:12,13; Luke 5:32; 13:3; 15:1-31; 16:19-31; 19:10) and what they must do to be saved (John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:35,51; 10:9). He said of His disciples, "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (John 17:16).
The apostle Paul as well, with all of his zeal and energy, directed that energy totally toward bringing the good news of salvation to the world and toward building up the saints in Christ. He taught that we should "be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God" (Rom. 13:1). He also enjoined that "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ... kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty, for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour" (1 Tim. 2:1-3). Thus, instead of trying to bring in a change in our nation's leaders and officials and lawmakers, we are enjoined to be subject to them and pray for them.
Now taking a stand of not voting and not getting involved in our nation's politics on the ground that we are citizens of heaven caries with it some weighty implications that we do well to consider:
1. We will accept without complaint the fact that some of our public officials are morally corrupt or dishonest or apathetic or incompetent (Dan. 4:17). Instead of complaining about them we will pray for them.
2. We will accept without complaint any legislation passed, including that favoring abortion, permitting pornography, enhancing gay rights, etc., and we won't seek to influence legislation by signing petitions that are aimed at preserving Christian freedoms and maintaining some semblance of national morality. Rather, we will pray for our legislators and seek ways to show the love and compassion of Christ to those involved in and affected by these evils.
3. We will accept without complaint high taxes and poor public services (such as the quality of public education, condition of roads, speed of mail delivery, etc.). We will be so occupied with the things of the Lord and with leading others out of earthly darkness into heavenly light that we will not be bothered about how our tax money is being spent.
4. We will accept without complaint increasing lawlessness, crime, and persecution of the righteous in our country. Rather we will allow these adversities to cast us all the more wholly upon the Lord and upon our fellow-Christians (see Matt. 5:10-12). Also we will seek ways of showing the love of Christ to the victims, and criminals and prisoners.
If we are heavenly-minded to the extent that we do not get mixed up with the politics of the world, neither will we have any interest in indulging in the pleasures the world has to offer. We will not be seeking to be entertained at the world's theaters, pool halls, night clubs, rock concerts, etc., nor by ungodly television programs and videos in our homes. Neither will we be laying up treasures upon earth (Matt. 6:19), nor ambitiously seeking fame, fortune, promotion, and reputation in this world through our jobs, social circles, club memberships, and the like.
"Ye are the salt of the earth" (Matt. 5:13), the Lord told His disciples. Salt here is symbolic of a preservative, and some take this as warranting Christians being active in trying to preserve our nation from the evil forces of communism, secular humanism, pornography, etc. But, as we mentioned earlier, we find neither the Lord nor His apostles engaged in this kind of preservative work. I believe it has been well said the "One cannot legislate morality." The only way to be a lasting influence for good in one's community and nation is to be helping our fellow citizens to receive Christ as their Saviour, and helping and encouraging our fellow-Christians to be obedient to "be followers [or imitators] of God" (Eph. 5:1), to "love not the world" (1 John 2:15), and to be obedient to the Word of God.
The Scripture says that "in the last days ... men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, ... fierce, despisers of those that are good. ... Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" (2 Tim. 3:1-13). I do not believe it is possible by any political means to stem the time of wickedness described in these verses. If one kind of evil is eliminated through legislation or swift execution of justice, the void will quickly be replaced by another kind of evil. What this world needs is changed lives more than changed laws. So may we who have the light of Christ in our lives be faithful to proclaim Christ to the world and show forth in our lives His love and light to those about us. "Ye are the light of the world. ... Let your light [that is, Christ] so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:14-16).
In conclusion, consider Abraham's nephew, Lot. When the angels came to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family from the judgment that was about to fall upon that wicked city, where did they find him? "Lot sat in the gate of Sodom" (Gen. 19:1), meaning that he had a place of leadership and authority there. Lot is described in the New Testament as "just" and "righteous," and "vexed with the filthy conversation [or behavior] of the wicked (2 Pet. 2:7,8). But instead of separating himself and his family from the wickedness, he seemingly allied himself with the unbelievers by becoming one of those authorities who "sat in the gate." He may have thought he could change the tide of lawlessness and immorality in Sodom by his influence there at the gate, but we sadly see just the opposite effect.
Not only was the entire city destroyed by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven" (Gen 19:24), thus attesting to Lot's total failure in influencing the city for good, but we find failure in influencing his own family for good, and indeed failure in his own relationship with Jehovah. When he went out to warn his sons-in-law to flee, "he seemed as one that mocked" unto them (verse 14). Lot himself lingered so long that the angels had to practically drag him and his wife and daughters out of the city (verse 16). His wife was so attached to Sodom that she disobeyed the angels' command, "Look not behind thee," and died, transfixed on the spot where she turned around to catch one last, fleeting glimpse of her beloved city (verse 26). And his daughters were so imbued with the immoral climate of Sodom that they made their father drunk and entered into an incestuous relationship with him (verses 31-38).
What a solemn warning this gives us to separate ourselves from this "present evil world" (Gal. 1:4) rather than joining any effort with the goal of improving the world which is soon going to be judged by God. May we be more heavenly-minded, having Christ as our one object. May we strive to "be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom [we] shine as lights in the world" (Phil. 2:15).
--Paul L. Canner

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rookie

I hear that we should choose to vote for those who represent Conservative and Christian views...

I ask, do we have a real choice...

I ask, what choice do we have when those who proclaim to represent Conservative and Family values, actually do? Would you vote for U.S. Senators Dave Vitter, Tom Foley, or Larry Craig?

There are times where God gives a nation what it deserves...

Isaiah 3:

Is. 3:1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water, 2 The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, 3 The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator. 4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them. 5 And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.

What choice do we have in this day?

In Christ
jeff

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Ruach34

What a clear call to the whole post and to those who will read, Pastor Frin. I find myself, after reading what you wrote, still attached to earthly things…Yes, the Lord will do His final lumberjack duties and heave His mighty axe upon this root…of which I am praying now. You have written exactly, in my opinion, what is on the Lord's heart. To care not at all for earthly things but care for that which is eternal which is men's souls. This is a kind of message that bears weight, yet it is a simple message, as was Christ's. Many will deny its power. Oh, may we long for the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus and not be complicated by the world and its tug on all who will turn around to look, but may we be burning bushes for the worldly to turn and look upon and turn them from the error of their ways.

Does this mean no vote at all...even if it is a 'good' thing to do. How shall we be perfect in this issue, Saints? Be ye perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect...

C
crsschk

For consideration into the mix of matters;


Isa 30:18 Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you, and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.

Isa 56:1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed.

Isa 61:8 For I the LORD love justice; I hate robbery and wrong; I will faithfully give them their recompense, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced [i]justice[/i], obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Heb 11:32,33

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Rom 13:1-4

Now it came to pass in those days, there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be enrolled. This was the first enrollment made when Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all went to enroll themselves, every one to his own city.

And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David; to enroll himself with Mary, who was betrothed to him, being great with child.

And it came to pass, while they were there, the days were fulfilled that she should be delivered. Luk 2:1-6

And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee. Mat 17:24-27

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pastorfrin

Not to forget this as we are 'thinking':

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.


The increase of 'His' government and peace there shall be 'No' end.
Not done by man, it is done by Him.
To order it, and establish it with judgment and with justice; How?
"The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. His zeal, not mans, His judgment, not mans, and His justice and peace, not mans; and it is 'His Kingdom' not mans.

Col. 3:1-4
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. [2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. [3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. [4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Praise His Glorious Name, for only He is worthy to receive and rule His Kingdom.

Until that day

In His Love
pastorfrin

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Pastorfrin...

I understand the passages that you have shown as talking both about God's ETERNAL kingdom -- and the future millenial kingdom. We must also remember that God raises up and tears down kingdoms and leaders back here on Earth.

It is interesting to note that some of the political isolationists (not talking about you, pastorfrin) who refuse to vote feel the liberty to enjoy the protections and blessings of this nation's governments. This nation has protected the liberty of its people for over 200 years.

The blessings of this nation are completely apparent to everyone in the world. In the United States, it is ILLEGAL to STARVE! The laws of the nation are meant to protect the population. Yet sometimes, laws are created that have an adverse effect upon believers and the nation in general. It is during such times that a person can use their voice (their vote) to bring about natural change WHILE AT THE SAME TIME offering their humble prayers to our God.

We are indeed pilgrims traveling across this land. But we are also Ambassadors of Christ. Why, then, would it be wrong to let our voice be heard in every aspect of our lives? Our voice (as believers) does not change. It should be the same wherever we go. If we feel the liberty to preach in a nation that protects such speech, then why can we not share that same "voice" in the voting booth?

The argument that "voting" equates to "trusting in man" is either fatally flawed or hypocritical in nature. Those who share it refuse to deny the protections of this nation -- including the right to voice their opinion in an internet forum! Regardless of how "unspiritual" such an act (like voting) may appear, we all are involved with the government whether we want to or not. Yet we can keep our eternal citizenship -- without compromise -- by remaining true to our Father in Heaven. We can also share what we feel is right by voting.

This is no more "trusting in man" than writing a post in a forum on this website. You are sharing your voice with others in the hope to impact opinion or belief. That is EXACTLY what a vote is. While you may not like ANY of the candidates in each election (local, state or national), you can still vote by priorities. I hate abortion. So I will vote for the candidate who at least professes a desire to limit the slaughter of millions of unborn children.

:-)

M
myfirstLove

Chris

Dear brother you do not or anyone choose the leaders. You may like to think you do, but you don't. God chooses and raises up leaders (thats why we must respect and obey all leaders unless it will cause us to disobey God).

Every leader that has been raised up is by God, not you or anyone else. There was no mistake in all the leaders that has been raised up. God raised up and puts them down, not you.

Tell me why were evil leaders raised up against Isreal? Was it because they didn't vote? or their rebellion to God? Why did God raise up such leaders agaist them?


Christians were so hard press with Bush, thinking he will heal the land, but look, Bush has brought us to One World and loosing our privacy and rights more than other leaders here. Has Bush gotten rid of abortion? Remeber this is a spiritual war and our home is in heaven. Read all the verses that I shared. You hardly have shared much scriptures, but opinions. I am just sharing what I see in the word.

According to His word, How are lands suppose to be healed? Seeing the state of American churches that will not happend anytime soon. Then we wonder why there is no revival. Most christians here (america) are putting their trust in government/man then the Lord.

I pray just like the Chinese, that persecution will come to American christians because they are so prideful and smugged in this world. Wanting their rights. Feeling like they deserve the best.

If I loose my stinking rights because I didn't vote I don't care, if that means I don't have access to the internet, I don't care as long as the brethren are perfected on that DAY. It seems that persecution has to come to America to perfect the saints here!

Lisa

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello MyFirstLove...

I believe that you are attempting to incorrectly "spiritualize" the concept of voting. Of course we realize that God is the ultimate person who raises up leaders. Yet to claim that God "chooses" every leader does not equate to His "seal of approval" for them. Did God CHOOSE Adolph Hitler? Did God CHOOSE Stalin? Did God CHOOSE Saddam Hussein? Did God CHOOSE the Pope? Yet we realize that God can raise and He can lay waste to empires and leaders at His will. How then does God do this? By the fact that he permits history to move forward through the FREE WILL of mankind. This is how God "allows" an individual to rise into power.

Some believer incorrectly "spiritualize" the history of the world. Some view God as a "cosmic chess player" who plays both all sides of a game. He moves the pieces as He desires. They believe that God raises up leaders at his own discretion and also strikes kings, queens, presidents and world leaders with holy indignancy. This sort of view sees mankind as virtual robotic pawns in the scope of human history. Men can not change history any more than they can change the mind of God.

My view? I believe that God created a world in which He allowed men to live via FREE WILL (Joshua 24:15; Matthew 7:13-14). They can choose to fall unto their faces in worship -- or they can choose to gratify their own fleshly natures and rule themselves (or be ruled). God is ETERNAL and looks upon this world from the timeless realm of Eternity (Genesis 1:1-5). This is how He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5) and knows the beginning from the end (Isaiah 46:10). While God is the Author of our FAITH (Hebrews 12:1-2), he allows men to write the books of their own lives (Revelation 20:11-13) -- which will cause us to be guilty on that great and terrible day of the Lord (Revelation 20:15). God knows what we need BEFORE we even ask (Matthew 6:8). So why does He ask us to pray (Mark 13:48) -- and why does He ask us to pray that His "will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" (Matthew 6:9-10)?

As we surrender our "free will" back to the Lord, we allow Him to take control of our individual history. But do we ask him about each and every individual decision in our lives? When do we wake up? When do we go to the bathroom? What type of shampoo do we use? What type of soap to buy? Why type of bread to purchase? Etc... If God "raises up" every leader, why can't He simply give us EVERYTHING we need without our having to work for it? If we are so "spiritual," then why do we continue to make flawed decisions that display our very real humanity? BECAUSE our FREE WILL still continues even AFTER we give our lives to Christ.

For an individual to simply throw their hands in the air and claim that God is in complete control and DO NOTHING to stall the judgment of God upon this world is a fallacy of logic. Why would we preach if the world is still going to go to Hell? BECAUSE OF FREE WILL. Men still have the will to choose Jesus or any other substitute (include selfish gratification). I believe that it is dangerous to argue that it is wrong for a believer to exercise his right as a citizen to vote or interfere in a political process. If this was the case, then God could never raise up an individual into power because that individual wouldn't [u]want[/u] to get involved in the first place! Do you see the ridiculous nature of such an argument? Praying is good and necessary -- for our OWN BENEFIT! But "faith without works is DEAD!" I know individuals who prayed for food -- but still were forced to work for their paycheck. I know individuals in school who prayed for A's -- but still were forced to study. We can't take a spiritual "laissez-faire" view of life and human history. Certainly, God will provide for us and oversee history. But we are not robots. We are still required to use our free will in our lives. God can feed and clothe us on occassion for the greater good. But God doesn't want us to become lazy. Sometimes, He will cause the brook to dry up (I Kings 17)!

Why do I vote? Why do I get involved? I wrote a list in an earlier post. Yes, human history is already known to God -- just like he knows what each of our next posts will be about. I feel that we are placing too much of the responsibility of living solely upon the back of God. While He certainly is able to do everything for us -- He is not a master that is subject to the needs of His slaves. He is a father who has given free will to us. If we want to eat, we must work. If we want to see a revival, we must pray. If we want to see our nation healed, we must humble ourselves and pray. If we want to protect our families from pornography -- we should pray and do whatever necessary (including vote) in order to be a good provider.

There are causes worth our time and effort. As much as I would like to preach on the streets and skip work -- I still am required to provide for my family. As much as I pray for revival, I still must profess the truth to those who will listen. As much as I want another "great awakening" to happen in this nation, I must still spread the Word. And as much as I would like God to raise up a godly man into the presidency, I still feel inclined to vote. The merciless slaughter of unborn children can come to an end. The teaching of sex techniques (disguised as "sex education") can come to an end. The forced reconginition of sexual deviance can end. But obviously, prayers haven't been presented correctly -- because these things persist. Perhaps we should apply a little "work" to our "faith?" Perhaps we should, uh, vote?

:-(

M
myfirstLove


Chris, you are a believing in the wrong kinds of works. I can tell that you are faithless person because you say prayer is doing nothing. I believe you are seeing prayer do nothing is because you are expecting God to move the way you want Him to move. The book of revelation will come to pass. There is not going to be peace on earth. God did not come to bring peace on earth.......you do not know His will and thats why you are not seeing His work even now upon the earth, yes, even with all the evil, God is bringing His will to pass.

I do have works brother, but not the kind your speaking. I believe in God therefore I have been crucified. The old man is dead to the world and alive to God. I believe in Jesus therefore it has produce works and cause me to forsake all, friends, family, house, comfort, possesssions. But, I don't count it lost because I have gain Christ! I do believe and thats why I am out preaching and warning of the coming wrath. I have a family too, but it doesn't stop my husband and I from living sold out for God. We believe and thats why we do not fret or worry about our family. We live less and thats why My husband's job does not tie him down from doing Christ work and reaching the loss. We share everything we have and not count them as ours so if evrything gets taken from us it will not shock us because we have given it up already, because we believe for a greater reward! We believe God has called us out and thats why we are selling our house knowing it is God's will and we do not even know where we are going, but we walk by faith knowing that He will lead us and provide. We do not need to see all the steps. once we take one step, God will show us the next. That is faith.

God is not calling me to fix the world's problems, but to be a light in this dark world giving hope to the hungry.

God bless you Chris. Look up brother.

S
sermonindex

I think in the interest of unity among the brethren, we should abandon this thread and focus on topics of eternal signifigance.

moe:BREAKING NEWS!!!!!
Eternity is already started. When we were saved did we not get eternal life or not? Where will everyone spend eternity, that is the question!! When JESUS comes back for us, it will be so glorious and we can't even imagine HOW MUCH. Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man what God has in store for those that love HIM, but He has revealed it to them by His Spirit.

But until then let's worship HIM in Spirit and Truth, serve HIM, HIS CHURCH, and promote Godliness on earth now, one way we can attempt to do that is selecting Godly leaders to govern the affairs of men. If He didn't want us to be salt and light to a lost and dying world, he would have took us on to heaven when he saved us. He gave us His Word as lamp unto our feet and a light unto our pathway. Will we ever need His Word anymore than the present to guide us? Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Whose gonna be King then? So let's promote a leader, who has a King named Jesus, and has the Holy Spirit living inside of them to lead us. How does one ever arrive at the statement of, it don't matter who leads or if they honor King Jesus?

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pastorfrin

Hi Chris,

I understand the passages that you have shown as talking both about God's ETERNAL kingdom -- and the future millenial kingdom. We must also remember that God raises up and tears down kingdoms and leaders back here on Earth.

Yes, and that is the kingdom ‘His Eternal kingdom’ that should lead us, or should one be satisfied with a little cottage below.
The point exactly, God raises up and tears down, not you or me voting.


It is interesting to note that some of the political isolationists (not talking about you, pastorfrin) who refuse to vote feel the liberty to enjoy the protections and blessings of this nation's governments. This nation has protected the liberty of its people for over 200 years.

Why not talk about me, you see Chris I do not put my trust in this government or any other for liberty or protection, for I find it all in the Lord. You should re-read the article
I posted “Should Christians Vote” and you will see that this is very adequately explained, and I might add has much more content then “God's ETERNAL kingdom -- and the future millenial kingdom.”
It is not the blessings of this or any other country we are to put our trust in; but our trust is to be in the Lord. It is the blessing of knowing Christ and leading as many to Him as He makes possible.
The Lord called us to proclaim the good news of His Kingdom, not to voice our opinion through a corrupt system that only leads to glorifying man.
I keep hearing about our freedom and protection in this country and yet, how many on this forum would immediately loose their jobs for speaking of Jesus Christ at their work place? How many have lost their jobs for supporting someone other than or speaking out in opposition to the current administration? How many have been told not to use the name of Jesus Christ in order to be politically correct and not offend those of other faiths?
You see freedom is what each individual thinks it to be, and what one calls freedom, another may call bondage.
Not so for the child of God, there can only be freedom through:

John 8:31-32
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. [36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Thus, God uses the things that the world looks upon as weak and foolish, to confound the wise and the mighty.
These weak and foolish are those who:

Jeremiah 17:7-8
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. [8] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Do you see ‘WHO’ the source is in this scripture?


The blessings of this nation are completely apparent to everyone in the world. In the United States, it is ILLEGAL to STARVE! The laws of the nation are meant to protect the population. Yet sometimes, laws are created that have an adverse effect upon believers and the nation in general. It is during such times that a person can use their voice (their vote) to bring about natural change WHILE AT THE SAME TIME offering their humble prayers to our God.

”ILLEGAL to STARVE”: Here is just one of the many reasons we should not trust in man, and if you cannot trust in who you are voting for, then your vote means nothing other then to continue to pursue a lie.


The Coming Starvation In America
________________________________________
By James P. Wickstrom

The government of the United States, by Law was to always maintain a three year mixed- grain survival storage for every man, woman, and child in the United States.

Like most Laws of the land, the politicians never took heed as to why our wise ancestors had this reserve requirement established. It was to make sure, that, in the time of a National Emergency, the people had the most important mainstay needed for survival individually and as a Nation.

Remember, the people make the Nation, the Nation does not make the people.

In the 1960's and 1970's the different political administrations of Washington, D.C. walked away from sanity and started to give the surplus grains which where in elevator storage all over the country, to other nations, such as the Soviet Union, India, etc.. This continued over two decades, until the elevators were empty and the reserve of grains that were in reserve as per a national crisis....were gone. Of course this was done as to inhance international "friendship" with other nations, even if those other nations were self-admitted enemies of the United States.

Remember, there was enough grain in storage, paid for by the American tax-payer, to last the masses inside the United States for three full years, if need be. But now it all is but gone!

By 1996, the United States Department of Agriculture (U.S.D.A.) claimed that there was enough food in ware-house storage to last every man, woman and child in the cities a 3 day supply and a 5 day supply for every man, woman, and child in the countryside, should a great national emergency occur. In other words, if food trucks stopped running, the food supplies for the masses would be 3 days in the cities and 5 days in the countryside.

In 2003, the U.S.D.A. stopped measuring for "days in reserve" of food for every man, woman, and child in the United States because the amount of food in storage in the United States dropped under a 1 day food supply for every man, woman, and child in the United States. Thus, the U.S.D.A. started to measure in individual pounds as to how much food was in the food-chain per person in the United States as per 300 million people.

In 2003, there was 77 pounds of food per person in the warehouse food-chain in the United States. What this means, is that during a national emergency, only 77 pounds of food per person is available before all food is TOTALLY GONE in the United States.

By September of 2005, there is now only 15.7 pounds of reserved foodstuffs in the food-chain for every man, woman, and child in the United States. This means that there has been an 80% decrease in the past two years. That decrease is becoming greater with every passing day in the United States. Of the 15.7 pounds of warehoused reserved food-stuffs, 11.0 pounds of the 15.7 pounds consists of unprocessed wheat. The rest of the 15.7 pounds of survival foods in storage for every man, woman, and child, totaling 4.7 pounds, consists of the following foods:

1. Non-fat dry milk 2. Cheese 3. Corn by the bushel 4. Peanuts by the pound 5. Lentils by the pound

That's it folks ! . . . This is what the District of Columbia has set aside representing the 15.7 pounds in the survival food-chain for every man, woman, and child to stay alive on. This is not a daily supply, this amount represents the total food everyone will get for ....how long, who knows!

The U.S.D.A. Crop Production Report per September 12, 2005, contained said information, and this information was brought forth by Alan Guebert of the Farm & Food Report.

Collective communist farming failed in the Soviet Union and communist China, and the present form of Collective Farming (paying the farmers not to grow food) has totally failed in the United States.

Mr. Guebert also stated, that one more disaster as the likes of the hurricanes Katrina or Rita against the United States, or anything to compare to such in whatever way, would create such a food panic, it would make the New Orleans rioting look like the Mardi Gras.

The United States Government for the past 75 years has been driving the United States deeper and deeper into the realm of communism. The United States is financially broke, the farms are broken down, the Nation has been de-industrialized, and the outsourcing of jobs continues to this day. Both corrupt federal administrations, the Democrat and Republican eat off the same plate. They have labeled that plate; "Screw the taxpayer, each and every one of them."

Our European ancestors were very wise, honest and full of common sense. They had food cellars where they had food canned, that could last themwell over a year, insuring them that they would be able to plant a crop the following summer, and still be able to survive waiting for crops to mature and harvest. They did not rely on the corrupt politicans who are liars and thieves.

But as I said, time passed by and the people put a false trust in their elected and appointed public servants thinking that these same people were looking out for their personal interests. How sadly wrong the people were then, and still are.

In conclusion, I highly suggest that you pull your head out of the sand, check your food supplies, and if you do not have 6 months to a years food in reserve, then you had best sell something or do whatever you have to do, to immediately prepare yourself and your loved ones for safety. If you can store two years at this time: DO IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!

Remember, the 15.7 pounds of food in reserve is becoming less by the day, and at the present rate of speed, the United States is heading to what is called.... meal to meal. One more major disaster will drive the United States to its knees.

The federal government, for itself, has millions of tons of preserved foods stashed away in underground storages, but this food is not for the masses, unless they surrender their firearms, and then they will get a food coupon from the *feds* to buy out of the federal government food warehouse wherever it is set up in your area.
Governments have always subjected and controlled the masses using FOOD. Remember, FOOD CONTROL IS PEOPLE CONTROL, and this same plan is being laid out laid out against the masses in the United States by COMMUNISTS in both the Republican and Democratic parties of the United States. New Orleans was your cue: Now prepare! You have been warned.

Your blood is off my hands!

James P. Wickstrom
_______________________________________________________________________


As we all can see it is very evident that those in power do not care about the law of no starvation in America, I wonder Chris what else your vote has insured you of or from;
And to think all this compassion comes from a compassionate conservative administration.
So who does one put their trust in, well of course it is the Lord; and if you feel you must help ….. the choice is yours, but do all:

Col. 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.


The argument that "voting" equates to "trusting in man" is either fatally flawed or hypocritical in nature. Those who share it refuse to deny the protections of this nation -- including the right to voice their opinion in an internet forum! Regardless of how "unspiritual" such an act (like voting) may appear, we all are involved with the government whether we want to or not. Yet we can keep our eternal citizenship -- without compromise -- by remaining true to our Father in Heaven. We can also share what we feel is right by voting.

This is no more "trusting in man" than writing a post in a forum on this website. You are sharing your voice with others in the hope to impact opinion or belief. That is EXACTLY what a vote is. While you may not like ANY of the candidates in each election (local, state or national), you can still vote by priorities. I hate abortion. So I will vote for the candidate who at least professes a desire to limit the slaughter of millions of unborn children.


How can you even begin to compare voting with our Christian confession and witness, rather it be voiced in type or on this or any other forum. How many have come to the Lord through your vote? How many have come to Christ through the spoken and written Word of God? How many are coming to Christ in China, India, and North Korea where there is no vote, but the Power of God.
How could you convince the early Christians that they would be much more effective in their
witness if they could vote and how instead of loosing their lives for the gospel of Jesus Christ, they could lose it, fighting wars, to preserve their freedom to vote?

Chris, I have no problem if someone votes or not, the problem is in those who put their trust in voting and in some man to change what we as the redeemed of God are to be doing.

Always remember:
Matthew 5:13-16
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. [14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Do we become salt and light through our vote? Never, even though it is what eases the conscience of many. :-(

In His Love
pastorfrin

PS

One final thought, it was not God’s will for man to vote or to be ruled by man, but to be ruled over by Him. Man, as usual chose to do it his way.

[6] But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. [7] And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.


1 Samuel 8:1-22
And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel. [2] Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beer-sheba. [3] And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment. [4] Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, [5] And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
[6] But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. [7] And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. [8] According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. [9] Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
[10] And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. [11] And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. [12] And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. [13] And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. [14] And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. [15] And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. [16] And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. [17] He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. [18] And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.
[19] Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; [20] That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles. [21] And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the Lord. [22] And the Lord said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

You are exactly right Chris, God gave man a free will to choose and he has done nothing but rebel against the Lord since. It is those who follow Jesus Christ that brings change to this world, an inward change of the heart and against such there is no law, only the Love of Christ will make the changes you desire.

pastorfrin :-)

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sermonindex


pastorfrin wrote:
Hi Chris,

I understand the passages that you have shown as talking both about God's ETERNAL kingdom -- and the future millenial kingdom. We must also remember that God raises up and tears down kingdoms and leaders back here on Earth.

moe wrote:
If we are christians we have already joined HIS eternal Kingdom. Have we not? We just haven't been glorified yet. We need to live in the part HE has in us in at the present and promote HIS thoughts and HIS ways and resist the devil and his thoughts his ways and his thoughts and his ways are for us to roll over and not to be salt and light in an adulterous and sinful generation.

Jesus is our source and he has many resources. I'm
sure you have heard the joke about the man on the housetop in the flood. He refused the 2 boats, and the helocopter and waitied on God to save him. He went to heaven ask God I know I'm here now in heaven but why did you not save my physical life in the flood. God said I sent 2 boats and a helocopter by to get you. Our faith is in the Lord for eternity and now to use the resources he has given us.

2 Thess 3:3-5
3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
KJV


P
pastorfrin

Salt and Light, this is salt and light in action, and what we are called to if we are HIS.

Luke 4:18-19
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, [19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Matthew 25:31-36
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15-20
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
[19] So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. [20] And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Put on your walkin shoes, for there is much to be done, for the Kingdom. :-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

R
rookie

Brother Gary and others have shared this thought often...

I think in the interest of unity among the brethren, we should abandon this thread and focus on topics of eternal signifigance.

What did the people say to Isaiah, Amos, Hosea, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jonah, Elijah, Moses, when they were told of their iniquity? The Scriptures are given to us so that we might recognize the ways of God. There is more Scripture which teaches us of the ways of Satan and those who become his seed.

The spiritual battle is not only present in the OT, but also the NT. The books of Timothy, Thesalonians, Revelation, James, Romans are filled with warnings of the spiritual battle.

The disunity amongst the brethren finds it's source in the desires and hopes for this world. The disunity of the brethren finds it's source in the vain tradition and philosophies of men that promote the world's ways.

Unity of the brethren comes as iron sharpens iron. Unity of the brethren comes to those who count the ways of this world worthless for the upward call of Christ in their life.

To proclaim we need not concern ourselves with what Scriptures points out as wickedness for the sake of unity of the brethren fails to recognize why throughout Scripture God has sent His prophets to bring that darkness into the light.

In Christ
Jeff

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi myfirstlove...

Chris, you are a believing in the wrong kinds of works. I can tell that you are faithless person because you say prayer is doing nothing. I believe you are seeing prayer do nothing is because you are expecting God to move the way you want Him to move. The book of revelation will come to pass. There is not going to be peace on earth. God did not come to bring peace on earth.......you do not know His will and thats why you are not seeing His work even now upon the earth, yes, even with all the evil, God is bringing His will to pass.
Brother, you have judged me using poor judgement. I did not say "prayer was doing nothing." But prayer [u]alone[/u] does not feed your family. God has stated in His Word that "[i]faith without works is dead[/i]" and "[i]if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat[/i]" and "[i]if a man doesn't provide for his own household, he is worse than an infidel[/i]." God has created a world in which men are expected to provide for their families, not JUST by prayer alone. In other words, you can PRAY [u]and[/u] WORK. The reason I used this Scriptural anecdote, was to illustrate that you can PRAY [u]and[/u] VOTE.

As you stated, the Book of Revelation is going to happen regardless. So why not sit back and "enjoy the ride?" BECAUSE THIS WORLD NEEDS A [u]VOICE[/u] IN THE WILDERNESS! If God already knows who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell -- then why preach the Gospel? It would not be "good news" to those who are perishing! Why do we still preach? Because FREE WILL still exists upon the Earth! While God knows the end of human history -- He has not revealed each miniscule detail (including the final eternal status of each person) to anyone.

God is not calling me to fix the world's problems, but to be a light in this dark world giving hope to the hungry.
Isn't the world's problem that they are lost? Does your "light" stop right outside the government? Yes, we are to provide "hope for the hungry" -- but the problem is that people do not realize that they are starving. This world suffers from "spiritual anerexia" (believing that they are in need of nothing) while the Church continuously looks at their "light" in the mirror! We hide our light from "unspiritual" places like voting booths and governmental buildings. We claim that we want God to heal our land, but we limit our part to praying. Remember, God has chosen something as foolish and "earthly" as preaching to reveal and convert the hearts of the lost. No matter how much you pray -- few have become convinced of their need for God by our [u]own[/u] private communication with God. How can they know unless we are [u]sent[/u]?

Isn't abortion a problem in this nation? Isn't pornography a problem? Isn't sin a problem? Pray all that you want -- but your prayers alone can no more change a nation than provide continual food on your family table. Why? Because God has warranted work to accompany your prayers. Yes, we can preach on the streets, at work and in school. But we can also remember to share our beliefs in the voting booth.

Why would Paul be so concerned about taking the Gospel to Rome and to Caesar? Why did use the Roman legal system (appealing unto Caesar) when he wanted to impact the government of the most powerful nation on Earth? Why didn't he just "pray" for Rome? Why didn't he just "pray" for Ephesus? Why didn't he just "pray" for funds instead of build tents? Was Paul wrong? I have a feeling that many today would have thought so.

:-(

S
sermonindex


rookie wrote:
Brother Gary and others have shared this thought often...

I think in the interest of unity among the brethren, we should abandon this thread and focus on topics of eternal signifigance.

What did the people say to Isaiah, Amos, Hosea, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jonah, Elijah, Moses, when they were told of their iniquity? The Scriptures are given to us so that we might recognize the ways of God. There is more Scripture which teaches us of the ways of Satan and those who become his seed.

The spiritual battle is not only present in the OT, but also the NT. The books of Timothy, Thesalonians, Revelation, James, Romans are filled with warnings of the spiritual battle.

The disunity amongst the brethren finds it's source in the desires and hopes for this world. The disunity of the brethren finds it's source in the vain tradition and philosophies of men that promote the world's ways.

Unity of the brethren comes as iron sharpens iron. Unity of the brethren comes to those who count the ways of this world worthless for the upward call of Christ in their life.

To proclaim we need not concern ourselves with what Scriptures points out as wickedness for the sake of unity of the brethren fails to recognize why throughout Scripture God has sent His prophets to bring that darkness into the light.

In Christ
Jeff


moe wrote:
I totally agree on the iron sharpens iron.
You are exactly right on we have spiritual battle. For 200 years there was much unity among the brethren in America. That is why God bessed America and other Nations were blessed beyond measure to assist help others nations spiritually and otherwise. All those years of history, we honored God, protected our country and other countries in a military manner and taught God Word to others, protected others from aggression and protected religious liberty. Only recently, in the last 40 years, have bought into the present philosophy, of rollover christianity. Not only do these people ignore the history of the Bible, but the history of the nation and why God blessed it. Why do you think America has been so blessed technologically, spiritually, and all others. I can tell you and history should also tell you tell you, it was not with the present roll over to the liberal philosophy that we hear so much of now. As I said, eternity has already started. We must battle spiritually, and we must battle in the same ways that we learned from a historical standpoint, not only from HIS WORD, but our own experiences as a christian nation, as well of being other aware historical falls of some others nations and what made them fall and be careful not to foloow suit. Yes, eternity in heaven is our goal, but we are not glorified yet. Until then, we must resist evil, select Godly leaders to govern the affairs of men, as God would have to, and as we did for 200 years and all through the Bible. As I said before, when God Word is accepted by the majority, it unites, as it did in the history of our nation, the only time and reason it would divide, is when it is not, as many are doing now. When the Mayflower people landing and they began prayer at Plymouth Rock, it continued in the same manner for 200 years, until man finally so educated from liberal universities that have kicked God's Word out and now think they have more intelligent than God HIMSELF, as a result people started accepting things and ways and lies that had been rejected for centuries. That's my take on what unites and divides. Thank you Jeff for your comments.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi pastorfrin...

Yes, and that is the kingdom ‘His Eternal kingdom’ that should lead us, or should one be satisfied with a little cottage below.
The point exactly, God raises up and tears down, not you or me voting.
Can God use something as silly as "voting" to raise someone up? In the last 200+ years, no president rose to power without a vote. Even Gerald Ford (the only "unelected" president) came to power through a vote of the Senate after winning his own state election. Did God raise up ANY of the presidents? Were they not voted into power?
It is not the blessings of this or any other country we are to put our trust in; but our trust is to be in the Lord. It is the blessing of knowing Christ and leading as many to Him as He makes possible.
The Lord called us to proclaim the good news of His Kingdom, not to voice our opinion through a corrupt system that only leads to glorifying man.
I keep hearing about our freedom and protection in this country and yet, how many on this forum would immediately loose their jobs for speaking of Jesus Christ at their work place? How many have lost their jobs for supporting someone other than or speaking out in opposition to the current administration? How many have been told not to use the name of Jesus Christ in order to be politically correct and not offend those of other faiths?
You see freedom is what each individual thinks it to be, and what one calls freedom, another may call bondage.
Is our verbal preaching required to do our jobs? Is your job to argue with a Muslim, Mormon or Catholic about the "error" of his way? Would you want to work where a Muslim constantly provoked you to reconsider your faith? Yes -- we know and share the TRUTH. But unless you are a clergy with no other source of income, you cannot understand the need for limitations while on the job. Like the old saying goes, "[i]Always preach the Gospel; and when necessary, use words[/i]."
”ILLEGAL to STARVE”: Here is just one of the many reasons we should not trust in man, and if you cannot trust in who you are voting for, then your vote means nothing other then to continue to pursue a lie.
A "lie?" How many people in America, PastorFrin, do you know who are starving? There are certainly some who do starve -- because they don't KNOW about or WANT the help that is provided by this government "of the people, by the people and for the people." Again in your remarks, you incorrectly equate "voting" with "trusting in man." I do not blindly trust my government. Rather, I expect my government to honor their word. If those in government forsake their word, they I both PRAY and VOTE them out! This is not "trusting in man." Rather, we are understanding of the ways of this world and cautiously approach each situation accordingly. We are not "blindly trusting in man."
How can you even begin to compare voting with our Christian confession and witness, rather it be voiced in type or on this or any other forum. How many have come to the Lord through your vote? How many have come to Christ through the spoken and written Word of God? How many are coming to Christ in China, India, and North Korea where there is no vote, but the Power of God.
How could you convince the early Christians that they would be much more effective in their
witness if they could vote and how instead of loosing their lives for the gospel of Jesus Christ, they could lose it, fighting wars, to preserve their freedom to vote?

Chris, I have no problem if someone votes or not, the problem is in those who put their trust in voting and in some man to change what we as the redeemed of God are to be doing.

How many have come to the Lord now that the Word of God is not outlawed in former communist nations? Why is it that organizations like VOICE OF THE MARTYRS are trying to affect the laws of closed nations so that the Word of God can be legal and the persecution of believers can end? Are they wrong in doing so?

Oddly enough, aware believers prayed for an end to the Holocaust during WWII. But what caused the end of the merciless genocide of Jews in Europe? Was it our prayers alone? Or was it our prayers in conjunction with military action as advocated by the governments of the allies who were mostly placed into power through a vote? While our physical persecution matters little in the realm of Eternity -- it mattered greatly to people like Corrie ten Boom (who survived the Concentration Camp and whose messages are included here at SermonIndex) and to Anne Frank (the young girl who died). Voting matters greatly for the multitudes of unborn children who have been murdered as a result of the vote of a few men in the Supreme Court (who were also installed by a President and confirmed by Congress through votes). It matters greatly to Times Square Church, which recently used the legal process of New York to change a pornographic sign outside their meeting place. It matters greatly to individuals who hear the Gospel overseas as a result of the religious liberty protected by our Constitution that allows American Church congregations to send them. Call it "trusting in man" all you want, I tend to think that it is doing what is at all possible to change things. Is this trusting in man? I know more "trust" in the men who are placed in government than I do in you. I believe that it is simply the same thing that we are doing here. Instead of shining our "light" in a public forum ("free speech" that is guarenteed and protected by the government "of the people, by the people and for the people"), we are simply sharing those beliefs within a voting booth.

Ironically, most of us attend congregations where we do something as "unspiritual" as VOTE for our pastors and elders. How strange that some do this but refuse to vote according to issues that directly or indirectly affect their families or churches.

If you say that there is nothing wrong with voting, then why do you continuously seem to equate it with "[i]trusting in man[/i]?" Why not simply warn those who choose to vote about the danger of trusting in man?

:-)

P
pastorfrin

The warning has been given, and it is up to each individual to heed it or not.
After seeing the results of the 'Christian' vote during the last two presidential elections, I have my doubts.

One more time for His sake:

Jeremiah 17:5-8 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. [6] For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. [7] Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. [8] For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

May His wisdom be received into our hearts, that we may yield good fruit.

In His Love
pastorfrin

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi PastorFrin...

The warning has been given, and it is up to each individual to heed it or not.
"Heed" to what? Your opinion? Your warning? You've already stated that it is NOT wrong to vote. And we have already made it clear that a vote is not necessarily an act of "trusting in man."

Where do you purchase your groceries? Do you "trust" WalMart or Sams will have the lowest prices? Or do you "trust" that another store will have lower prices? When you buy a hamburger at McDonalds, do you "trust" that it will probably be cooked thoroughly? Are you "trusting in man" by purchasing the burger? When you exercise the right to use a telephone, are you "trusting" in a worldly organization to provide this service? When you read your Bible, have you "trusted" in the men who translated, copied and printed it?

I understand that you, like some of the rest of us, are strongly opinionated in the issue of voting. Why not simply remind believers to keep their trust in the Lord instead of man as they exercise their vote? This would "lay the axe to the root" of the issue rather than invoking Jeremiah's words about a curse to those who would choose to vote.

Me? I feel the liberty and inclination (after much [u]prayer[/u]) to exercise this right. I will certainly pray long and hard about this task. Do I "trust" in the man for whom I will vote? Not at all -- in a strictly Biblical sense. However, I trust that the man that I give my vote will [i]probably[/i] do better regarding some important issues than the representative who publicly claims a desire to go the other way with those issues. I love my family and my neighbors too much to do nothing.

:-)

P
pastorfrin

:-)

S
sermonindex

A little humor. don't take it personal Pastorfrin. Are you sure you picked the right face?

P
pastorfrin

:-) :-) Yup! :-)

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There is only one thing to smile about on this thread -

Psa 118:6 The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
Psa 118:7 The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

Psa 118:13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD helped me.
Psa 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
Psa 118:15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.
Psa 118:16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.


Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 146:5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

Psa 146:6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth forever:

Psa 146:7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:

Psa 146:8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:

Psa 146:9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

Psa 146:10 The LORD Shall Reign Forever, even Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye The LORD.

P
pastorfrin

Psa 118:6 The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

Psa 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.

Psa 146:10 The LORD Shall Reign Forever, even Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye The LORD.

Yes, HE_Reigns

He is the one who is in control and we can place all our trust in Him, and that indeed is something to smile about. :-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

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[b]Lam 3[/b]:21-24 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
They are new every morning: "Great is Thy faithfulness"
The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in Him.

__________________________________
Lyrics: God will take care of you

Be not dismayed whatever betide,
God will take care of you;
Beneath His wings of love abide,
God will take care of you.

God will take care of you,
Through every day, over all the way;
He will take care of you,
God will take care of you.

Through days of toil when heart doth fail,
God will take care of you;
When dangers fierce your path assail,
God will take care of you.

All you may need He will provide,
God will take care of you;
Nothing you ask will be denied,
God will take care of you.

No matter what may be the test,
God will take care of you;
Lean, weary one, upon His breast,
God will take care of you.

P
pastorfrin

Can a Deeply Religious Person
Be a Government Leader?
Roger Berry
This is not a theoretical question, I found out last January. As a matter of fact, a newspaper reporter asked the question and used the specific office of U.S. Attorney General. Then President-elect Bush had nominated a former governor of Missouri, John Ashcroft, to be attorney general. Ashcroft is noted for his profession of deep religious faith and his opposition to abortion, euthanasia, and for other positions that religious conservatives tend to take.

With an obvious knowledge of the Bible and its implications in practical life, the reporter noted, "The New Testament that Ashcroft believes in calls on everyone to 'render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.'"

He aptly noted that the people of the United States need to know what John Ashcroft would do when rendering to one will offend the other.

I am convinced that the reporter had a clearer understanding of the dilemma of a Christian serving in government than many "conservative" Christians have.

Politics is by its very nature the art of compromise. Even a professing Christian in politics is going to have to compromise Christian principles at times. Ashcroft's supporters even pointed out that when he was governor of Missouri, he efficiently established a state lottery system in spite of his religious opposition to gambling. The state voted to establish a lottery, and it was up to him to see that it was carried out. As Attorney General of the United States, he would need to enforce the abortion laws on the books.

I am not a judge of Ashcroft's spirituality (or of President Bush's for that matter) -- I leave that in God's hands. But Acts 5:29 says without compromise, "We ought to obey God rather than man" [when God's laws and man's conflict]. The word ought there is not optional -- it is our duty. Rendering to God the things that are God's and to Caesar the things that are Caesar's is not optional either -- the choice is clear-cut.

The Bible teaches a two-kingdom ethic -- the kingdom of heaven and the kingdoms of this world. Romans 13, for example, clearly delineates the responsibility of the government (he) and of the believers (ye). The believers' main purpose is to be salt and light, influences for truth, and witnesses of the power of Jesus Christ to transform laws. The purpose of the government is to maintain law and order, to protect the good, and to punish those who violate its laws. The attempt by many to blend these two purposes has resulted in confusion.

I was surprised and disturbed (in light of the Scriptures) by many during and after the last U.S. Presidential election who appeared to insist that the future of Christianity in America hinged on electing "Christians" to high places to preserve moral values. While Christians can appreciate when people of principle are in control, the salvation of the United States as a nation or of individuals within the nation does not hinge on Christian involvement in politics. Far too many have taken their focus off working to meet man's spiritual need and focused on political action to Christianize laws and government institutions. Would someone who stands consistently for Christian principles ever get elected in our secular and pluralistic society?

Do we forget Rome after it was "Christianized" and other governments since that have tried to enforce Christianity? All of them failed? Many people suffered? For Christianity, by its very nature, is a voluntary faith. It is a faith of love that does not force itself on the rest of the world.

I fear that many who profess to believe in complete separation of church and state and who give lip service to the Scriptural teaching of a nonresistant, witnessing faith have yielded to temptation. The temptation is to trust in the hope that somehow Christianizing politics and government will lead to the betterment of society. In the last half century, numerous government leaders from the top down have professed to be born-again Christians. But it is also true that society in general has been on the skids spiritually as never before. I believe that the fault does not lie at the door of the government as much as at the door of the church that has trusted in politics to promote its standards and has failed in the call to point men and women to the Christ who alone can change their lives.

The Christian's "politics" is not earthly or carnal but persuading men and women to be reconciled to Christ.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi pastorfrin...

I disagree with Roger Berry. Consider the lives of David, Hezekiah, Josiah or any of the Judges of Israel. Consider the sincere men who once presided over the Executive branch of this nation.

Personally, I have never felt that our society or "moral fabric" hinged on the election of President Bush. I don't know the man. I don't know the sincerity of his "born again" claims of faith. However, I did feel that he was a superior choice (at least in word) to stop some obvious moral legislation that exists in this nation. I felt no more conviction about voting for him than I do for paying my taxes. It was not "compromising" my faith, since my trust is not in President Bush or in any government. I simply voted for what I felt was a better choice in regards to the legislated direction of this country.

As for John Ashcroft (a favorite "whipping boy" of the far left), I don't believe that it was his responsibility -- even as Governor -- to create the lottery. A governor is limited by the checks and balances with his office. A governor is NOT a dictator. He is confined to obey the law just like you are confined to pay your taxes (which paid for abortions after the Clinton Administration threw out a Reagan/Bush Sr. gag order to prevent the government from funding them and before President Bush reinstated such an order). A governor does not declare which laws are Constitutional. He does not declare an inmate guilty or innocent.

:-)

P
pastorfrin

I disagree with Roger Berry. Consider the lives of David, Hezekiah, Josiah or any of the Judges of Israel. Consider the sincere men who once presided over the Executive branch of this nation.

Chris,

Really, that shocks me. :-)


A governor is limited by the checks and balances with his office.

Was that not the point? We are defeating our Christian witness when we place ourselves in positions that require us to uphold laws that are against the Laws of our Lord Jesus.


The Christian's Relation to the Nation
by Ralph Shank
Tract 31E97
published by Rod and Staff Publishers, Inc.

Much confusion surrounds the Christian's relationship to the nation. The lines that God has established which separate these two organizations into their distinct and specific areas of service have become foggy. In many cases, religious organizations have pursued a course of trying to Christianize the government. This work is an attempt to present clear Bible teaching on the subject.

The state is an institution by divine appointment. Paul says, "The powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1). To Abraham, God said, "I will make of thee a great nation." God chose a special nation as the instrument through which our Lord came into the world.

From the early part of Genesis to the latter part of Revelation, the Bible speaks of the nations. There are hundreds of references to nations, kingdoms, kings, rulers, governors, and so on, in the Bible. God's interest in the nations is seen in His declaration that He will "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" and that His kingdom will then fill "the whole earth" (Daniel 2:34, 44; Revelation 11:15).

When one rightly divides the Word, it becomes very clear that the relationship and duty of God's people to the state under the Old Testament was vastly different from that of the Christian under the New Testament. God is "the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever," but this does not say that He cannot use different methods under different conditions. I may remain the same in character through the years, and the fact that I begin to use a washcloth where I once used a comb only means that the condition has changed and not the character.

Under the former covenant Israel was both the church and the state in one organization. Thus Samuel was a prophet of the Lord (1 Samuel 3:20) and also a judge who judged Israel all the days of his life (1 Samuel 7:15). Elisha was anointed to take Elijah's place as a prophet and to be an officer to slay certain wicked people (1 Kings 19:16, 17). In those days it was required by God that His people participate faithfully in the national affairs of the state of Israel (Nehemiah 2:17, 18).

New Testament Relation

Under the New Testament God's plan is for His people to go into all the world with the message of salvation through Christ the Prince of peace, who left us an example, "that ye should follow in his steps; Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not" (1 Peter 2:21-23). Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight" (John 18:36). "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).

It is noteworthy that the Apostle Paul, when referring to the church in Romans 12, uses the terms "ye" and "we" but when speaking of the state in Romans 13 he always refers to them as "they" and "he" (Romans 13:1-7). Not only are civil authorities referred to in the third person but the ones who resist them are likewise, showing that such action does not belong to "us" (Romans 13:2).

Responsibility to Government

There are some who argue that we are not obligated to obey the law today because of the corruption in our government. "Paul" they say, "lived and wrote under a benign government." This argument is indeed strange, since we are enjoying religious liberty now, and most of the apostles died a martyr's death at the hands of the state.

One duty, therefore, of the Christian is submission and obedience. The Christian and the anarchist such as Jehovah's Witness, (falsely so called) have nothing in common. Their request for exemption from military service is because they are opposed to the government. Our refusal to bear arms is because of our relationship with and our loyalty to the One who suffered for us.

To disobey the civil authority's laws when they do not conflict with the higher authority of God (Acts 4:19; 5:29) is to bring upon us both the punishment of the state (Romans 13:4) and the damnation of God (Romans 13:2). Paul emphasized this again in Titus 3:1 when he said that we should be subject to and obey the state and that we should "speak evil of no man." It is interesting how those who know little about politics are free to denounce the chief executive and other statesmen.

The Christian also obediently pays his taxes (Romans 13:6, 7; Luke 20:25). One pacifist used his "fist" against the government by calling upon Christians to withhold some of their taxes (war taxes) by saying that when Christ said, we are to "render . . . unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's," He did not say how much.

May we remember that Christ did tell us how much to pay to the state when He said that we should render that which bears his image. Therefore, when the nation asks for it, we give it to them and its never our responsibility to tell the government how it may use its money. If I owe a person some money, I have no right to refuse to pay it on the grounds that he will not use it properly. Nor can I refuse to pay it unless he promises to use it the way I say he should.

First Allegiance to Heavenly Government

While we find it our duty to pay to Caesar his required tax, it would be contrary to the principle of the Scripture to voluntarily or otherwise invest in war bonds, thereby becoming an investor in the war program. No nonresistant person would want to make a profit on the war.

Various portions in the Bible make it clear that we are pilgrims on this earth and that our citizenship is in heaven. As pilgrims we do not have citizenship responsibilities. As foreigners we can expect alien recognition of the state, which is different from citizenship privileges. Therefore, Paul says, "He is the minister of God to thee for good" (Romans 13:4a). He is also "for the praise of them that do well" (1 Peter 2:14b).

Benefits From the Government

Certainly God has not ordained the state for the benefit of the ungodly only, but, as these Scriptures show, it is ordained for us as well.

Many are the benefits we enjoy because of the powers that be. We travel far and wide with ease on state roads and national highways. In case of emergency, a state trooper may escort us speedily through heavy traffic to a hospital. The U.S. Postal Service is enjoyed by all.

We are happy to live in a country where riots, robberies, and plundering are held in check by the one who "beareth not the sword in vain." Court houses keep records of our ownership of property. All of these privileges and many more an alien may enjoy.

We believe that as strangers it is not wrong to use these provisions which God has made for us. Paul appealed to the law when he was on trial (Acts 25:11) and enjoyed the protection of the authorities (Acts 23:15-24). According to the New Testament teaching and example, we then have the right to certain benefits from the state.

Boundaries of Separation

Some people seem to be confused on this point and see no difference between an appeal to the government for Christian consideration and an appeal to get them to run the affairs of the state on the basis of Christian principles. God never asked the government to try to operate without the sword. Neither has He commissioned the church to advise the state. On various occasions the apostles witnessed to statesmen of their need of salvation but never did they tell them how to run the state.

We would certainly not appreciate a delegation from Capitol Hill at our meetings trying to instruct the church how to choose church leaders, how to observe communion, or administer baptism, and so on. We would likely say as Nehemiah said to Sanballat the Horonite, "Ye have no portion, nor right, nor memorial" in the church (Nehemiah 2:20).

Why then should we leave our high and holy calling and go to the state to tell them how to operate. While statesmen have expressed their appreciation for the prayers of God's people, they have expressed their disgust at churchmen trying to meddle into their affairs.

The folly of Christians trying to advise the nations was glaringly brought to our attention a few years ago when the president of a Mennonite college wrote to Mr. Nixon, telling him in essence that he could have an army but that it should not be too large.

God has clearly given the sword to the state, and it is not for us to tell him how or when, or whether or not, he may use it.

"Let Christian people mind their own business by teaching the doctrine of Nonresistance for Christians and stop meddling with the policies of nations. It does belong to us as Christians to petition governments to give standing room for our conscience in their militaristic policies but not to become political advisers" - George R. Brunk, Sr. (Sword and Trumpet Editorials, October 1929, p. 6).

Witnessing to the Nation

The muddle in the minds of many in this area seems to come from a feeling that they should witness to the state. One Mennonite writer thinks that it is our duty to go to the president of our nation when he is elected and tell him that war is sin. It seems rather strange that this one concern should be singled out.

Why, in the face of the moral breakdown in our nation, do they not send a delegation to government headquarters to try to get a bill introduced to have senators observe Feet Washing, or any other Bible doctrine? We have no more right to seek to saddle one part of the Gospel on unregenerated men than any other part.

Here again the Bible gives a clear directive. Paul witnessed to the statesmen in the same manner in which he witnessed to people of lesser note. Felix and Drusilla heard Paul "concerning the faith in Christ" (Acts 24:24). Is it not a very Pharisaical approach to try to get sinners to practice Christian principles rather than to experience the New Birth? What did Christ say about such? (See Matthew 23:15).

Because the burden of "witnessing to the state" seems to have been almost totally in the area of disarmament, one wonders whether a great deal of communistic propaganda has not seeped in where it ought not to have.

Since it is clear that the church and state are two different organizations, it should be clear to all that we have no part in holding office or putting men in office. While many good fundamentalists (so called) and some poor Mennonites believe that church and state are two separate organizations, yet they believe that it is a Christian's duty to try to elect the best man for political office.

Since our citizenship is in heaven, as Philippians 3:20 (margin) says, we cannot vote. No person without citizenship status may rightly vote or hold office. Would it be reasonable to have part in placing a man into an office that places a sword in his hand and then refuse to assist him in the use of that sword? A person in office certainly has the right to expect the ones who put him into office to assist him in executing that office.

The Christian's attitude toward politics need not be one of unconcern or disinterest. (At the same time we would caution against becoming overly anxious or concerned about it.) Since we are to pray for "kings and for all that are in authority" (1 Timothy 2:1, 2), we believe we should have some interest in the affairs of the nation.

Do we believe in the power of prayer? Then we can certainly do more on our knees than at the polls. Two devoted children of God agreeing to pray earnestly can do much to move the mind of God to set up whom He will to the blessing of both the church and the nation (Matthew 18:19).

Here lies our power and calling. Let us not forget our civil leaders after the election. Here is a Biblical prayer request. When did you last pray for this request?

The Christian who properly fulfills his role is the most valuable subject the state has. Let us take our place as submissive, obedient, praying, taxpaying aliens. In this way we will be the preserving salt as God has intended. When we are faithful in this manner, then our witness will be effective as we reason with statesmen of "righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come" (Acts 24:25).


:-) :-)

G
ginnyrose

Excellent article!

it would be contrary to the principle of the Scripture to voluntarily or otherwise invest in war bonds, thereby becoming an investor in the war program. No nonresistant person would want to make a profit on the war.

This principle has come to the fore in our community recently. There is a company not too far away that builds helicopters, and they pay well. A young Christian brother was employed there. I say was because he quit when they were awarded a large contract by the military to build some for their use.

Yes, standing by Biblical principles will be costly at times. Biblical principles are not popular when it interferes with personal opinions, wishes and making a living.

Thanks for posting, Pastor.

ginnyrose

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sermonindex

Forgive me - but this thread has completely confused me.

This nonsense started with the people of Israel demanded a "King" - that made God none too happy.
The people were the ones who initiated human government and God accommodated them, once again, as He did when they wanted the quail.
Why His people would look to "Princes", I will never understand, when it is He that rules the earth and gives the people the rulers that they deserve.
He only said to obey the laws of the land, wherein that they do not cause one to break His Own Laws.
If you believe that in this corrupt society, where big business and pay-offs will give you the candidate that you have voted for - than you know nothing of the times we are living in. A simple search into Diebold and so forth should open your eyes, unless you've believed a lie.
Unless you are a Dominianist or a Pre-Tribulation Rapture adherent, I cannot see such fervor in the affairs of men, when so many verses point to trusting God alone and not be entangled with the affairs of this world.

If you can see the Apostles and the early Church, lined up at Town Hall to step in a booth or click computer boxes, with hopes of getting in "the least of two evils", and "'crediting' the man who is in - for the freedoms that they have or the moral climate of their country", go ahead - but that is so far from Scriptural justification as one can get.
It is sad that we have strayed this far from Scripture, that this topic would even come up with those who claim a better spirituality, because they have listened to the best Sermons out there.
Had that been the case, you'd "come out from among them and be ye separate" and know that it is God Himself who raises up Kings and takes them down and not your vote.
Look at His response to the people when they asked for a king - and look at who they got and what happened from then on.
Yes, He rose up David afterwards and he represented Christ and works all things together for the good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose - but HE chose Saul - HE chose David - and He will chose the next ruler of your country - if you have a choice at all.
Only time will tell if your country is attacked and this current leader stays in place, but you should truly look further to see if the country is being run sovereignly in the first place.
Is it and has it been run "by the people" ?
Has the morality increased in the however many years or has it degenerated to almost Sodom and as it was in the days of Noah ?
If God's people, would become who they are supposed to be, then it is His people who would be the Light of this world and be feeding all of the hungry, caring for the sick and homeless.
Not the U.N.. If Ron Paul was honest, he would tell the people, there is no way to get rid of this U.N. except by having it replaced with an even worse world governance. If he were honest - he would tell the people that they are no longer being ruled by their own constitution but by the U.N..

Shame on us for relegating so very much to governments.
Again, Scripturally, you will get the leader that He has chosen and not some potentially rigged election. Even if it is not tampered with or decided by an Electoral College - you will still get the leader that He has chosen for the days we are in - as it's always been.
To fight a brother over a president is not Christian. By that I mean, it is as far from Scripture as one could get.
"Come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord of Hosts."
Do good unto all men, Especially the household of faith.
Where are our loyalies ?

Yes, as you said Ccchhhrrriiisss - more attention should have been given to the suicide discussion than to this.

Where is our "Zeal" ? It's shows too clearly where - by where we post most and how.
Where are we when life and death issues [both spiritually and physically] are posted on the Scriptures and Doctrines Portion of this Board ?
The same people who said they did not want to talk about politics, are those who are posting the most on this thread.
No - politics can be posted I see - but only the party line mentality and anything that comes against that cannot be discussed.
Be Christians first and put His Word above kings and princes and He'll take care of who gets in.
I'm [i]still[/i] trying to picture Paul or John sitting at home and [u]arguing[/u] on this thread that the people should get out there and vote - because it REALLY matters. :-(

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HE_Reigns...

I agree with much of the rationale behind what you, pastor_frin and others are saying. Of course we should not place our "trust" or "faith" in man! To put it more plainly, I simply want to make a distinction between voting for a person and blindly trusting in either that person or the political process.

Suppose that a local law is passed that prohibits the preaching of the Gospel within 1000 yards of a liquor store, school, etc... Suppose that a congregation decides to rent a building on a commercial zone (within the 1000 yards of a liquor store and school). A well-traveled park is also located within that area, where several members of the congregation often preach the Gospel. The town's zoning commission decides to prohibit the congregation from assembling in their new building. The local law enforcement warn potential park preachers about possible arrest if they preach there.

What is this congregation and group of street preachers to do?

Do they refrain from preaching and simply pray?
Do they preach anyway (breaking the "law") and pray?
Or do they contact their elected public officials about this violation of "free speech" while still praying about the issue?
If the elected public officials are obstinate men with heavy anti-Christian sentiment, should you vote for another candidate?
Should you simply contact a Christian legal organization (like ACLJ) and let the issue play out in courts that are filled with judges appointed by elected officials?

Christ made it extremely clear that we are confined to living within the auspices of this world (John 15-17). We remain IN the world, even though we are not OF the world. Yet we still pay taxes (as recorded by Matthew the former tax collector in Matthew 22:21; 17:24-27). These taxes were used to pay for many ungodly, worldly purposes by terrible men -- including lacivious living, ungodly wars, and the futherence of the Roman Empire. Yet Christ made it clear to obey such law. Interestingly, Christ referred to Tiberius by his TITLE rather than name ("[i]Render unto [u]Caesar[/u]...[/i]"). Paul used both the Roman legal system and the Greco-Roman road system to quickly take the Gospel to the farthest reaches of the Roman Empire. The writers of the New Testament used the Greek language to send the written Word to the entire world.

Dorcas provided an interesting analogy about a young man who quit working for a defense company that would build helicopters for the government. While it is commendable that this young man held to his convictions (right or wrong) enough to quit his job, was his decision of uninvolvement correct? How "involved" are we in our everyday lives? Are we really that seperate from the things of this world? To be truthful, we all partake of the things of this world on a daily basis. We shop in stores that also sell questionable materials. We buy gasoline to power our vehicles -- built by companies that sponsor great amounts of filth on television. We purchase food from companies (like Kraft) that are owned by corporations that provide cigarettes that are killing hundreds of thousands. We even purchase shampoo from companies that contribute to the sexualization of American children by their advertisements. Even one of the most "seperated" groups in America, the Amish community, is forced to sell items from their homes in order to continue their "seperate" lifestyle. How "uninvolved" are we? Do we not see the advertisements as we drive? Do we not use the roads, vehicles, houses, banks, telephones, internet, hospitals, food products, etc... that are controlled and regulated by the government?

Remember the story of the Good Samaritan? When passing by the injured man, he didn't "trust" in or even call upon the government to help the man. He took care of this man himself. But did he "trust" in the innkeeper to continue caring for this fellow?

In other words, we are involved in this world. Does this make us "worldly" in a negative sense? Jesus was accused by the religious leaders of his day for "eating and drinking with sinners."

Trusting in man? It is difficult to find an American who trusts in politicians -- let alone a Christian! In our American political system, the individuals who are elected into office are not appointed by men -- but by a plurality of the people. This doesn't always mean that the best person is appointed to their term in office. Rather, it sometimes is the result of choosing between the candidates.

Why would a person (including a believer) run for office? Contrary to popular belief, most politicians do not run for office because they are hungry for power or fame. The law prohibits them from profitting from legislation while in office. Rather, most run for office because of a desire to serve the people of their community (local, state or national) and somehow want to affect the outcome of legislation that they feel is important.

Back to the personal analogy: Should a local congregation do nothing (except pray -- which they should be doing anyway) when the law impedes upon their natural rights of free speech? Or should they contact the elected officials who they hope can make a difference?

It is clear to me that it is certainly possible to vote for an individual or belief WITHOUT necessarily "trusting" in the system itself. You're probably right if you think that the best government is no government. But where would the roads come from? Where would the sewage come from? How would we know the food, water, gas, vehicles, etc... that we buy are well regulated and safe? While no government involvement sounds good on paper -- it reeks of social isolation. Even Israel feel into difficulty every time a Judge died. They all did what was right in their own eyes, making a mess of things, until the times warranted the overwhelming need for a new Judge. While these Judges were certainly appointed by God, the people of Israel only knew this by their "rising to the occassion."

This government of the people, for the people and by the people is far from perfect. It is as diversely flawed as the people that it represents. But after having traveled abroad, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Can the government perform more adequately? Are there no causes worth voting for?

My trust is reserved for God and God alone. I commune with Him daily concerning my desire for greater intimacy, the needs of my family, and the condition of the Church, the nation and the world. However, my "vote" is simply an additional way to make a temporary difference in this temporary home. I see an injustice, and I vote accordingly (while continuously maintaining my communion with the Lord). I do this because it is one of the quickest ways to legally accomplish something. And while the whole matter may seem quite unspiritual, God has been known to use a government (or government leader) from time to time.

:-)

S
sermonindex

edit: How many countries preceeded the US in approving of homosexuality practices?

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sermonindex

Gentlemen, I stand corrected.
I now know why Brother Frin could do nothing more last night but give the smilie back as his response.

Ccchhhrrriiisss, you either didn't read my post or something like a broken record is playing over and over inside your mind, that you consistently come back with the same answers, rather than answer Bible questions directly.
It was ginnyrose btw who mentioned the young man with the prior helicopter job.

Your posts hit almost every point of Dr. Messina's book on 'Tools for Improving Your Critical Thinking'. That's a joke though Ccchhhrrriiisss. Just a way of trying to also get us to smile through a disagreement.

I almost hesitate to post the styles that he wrote out, that we should watch out for in people's dialogue, in fear there may be a few that haven't been used as yet, that may be picked up from his list. Another joke.

Since we cannot stay Sola-Scriptura on this topic, maybe posting some jargon-jest could lighten the situation here. Somewhat like Brother Frin's smilie reply but in words.

But first - How can we say and then ask, "Our trust is in GOD and GOD alone --- But how could we possibly do without men ruling over us and providing our food and water and so forth ?"
I think Jesus answered that one in the Sermon on the Mount. And for each example you gave, more Scriptures could have been posted to answer.

Moving on - Dr. Messina had "Examples" after each of the following, to exhibit how each can be used.
I removed his examples because they were secular --- but I was tempted to put some examples in myself --- but it is Messina's writing, so best left alone.

All in good fun at this point and with full understanding, that as long as we pray for each other - HE will have HIS way with us all.
God Bless His Saints - despite that now we see through a glass darkly and we all are yet to go a lonnng way through some very hard days ahead until we see The Light.
I believe that is our concern here, in what some of us have posted --- the days ahead and letting go of the world and our trust in it - for soon it may compromise our very souls to do so.

Just to lighten this subject now ... Thanks.

From Jim Messina, Ph. D. and a merry heart -

-Ambiguity Fallacies-

AMPHIBOLY: A fallacy of syntactical ambiguity deliberately misusing implications.

EQUIVOCATION: This fallacy is a product of semantic ambiguity. The arguer uses the ambiguous nature of a word or phrase to shift the meaning in such a way as to make the reason offered appear more convincing.

-Appeals to Motive in Place of Support Fallacies-

APPEAL TO EMOTION: In this fallacy, the arguer uses emotional appeals rather than logical reasons to persuade the listener. The fallacy can appeal to various emotions including pride, pity, fear, hate, vanity, or sympathy. The appeal to sympathy is actually a formal fallacy labeled Ad Misericordiam. Generally, the issue is oversimplified to the advantage of the arguer.

COMMON BELIEF: This fallacy is committed when we assert a statement to be true on the evidence that many other people allegedly believe it. Being widely believed is not proof or evidence of the truth.

PAST BELIEF: A form of the COMMON BELIEF fallacy. The same error in reasoning is committed except the claim is for belief or support in the past.

SLANTING: A form of misrepresentation in which a true statement is made, but made in such a way as to suggest that something is not true or to give a false description through the manipulation of connotation.

-Category Fallacies-

COMPOSITION: Because the parts of a whole have a certain property, it is argued
that the whole has that property. That whole may be either an object composed of different parts, or it may be a collection or set of individual members.

DIVISION: This fallacy is committed when we conclude that any part of a particular whole must have a characteristic because the whole has that characteristic.

-Causal Fallacies-

GENUINE BUT INSIGNIFICANT CAUSE: The object or event identified as the cause of an effect is a genuine cause, but insignificant when compared to the other causes of that event.

POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC: A form of a hasty generalization in which it is inferred that because one event followed another it is necessarily caused by that event.

-Changing the Subject Fallacies-

ATTACKING THE PERSON or Ad Hominum. Attacking the arguer rather than his/her argument. Saying something negative about someone is not automatically ad hominum.

APPEAL TO AUTHORITY or Ad verecuniam. This fallacy tries to convince the listener by appealing to an expert. Often times it is an authority in one field who is speaking out of his field.

-Definition Fallacies-

BEGGING THE QUESTION: An argument in which the conclusion is implied or already assumed in the premises. Also said to be a circular argument.

CIRCULAR DEFINITION: The definition includes the term being defined as a part of the definition.

-Distraction Fallacies-

APPEAL TO IGNORANCE or Ad ignorantium. Arguing on the basis of what is known and can be proven. If you can't prove that something is true then it must be false (and vice versa).

.FALSE DILEMMA (often called the either/or fallacy because the argument nearly always includes the words "either... or..."). This fallacy assumes that we must choose between two opposite extremes instead of allowing for other possibilities, especially for the possibility of choosing an alternative between the extremes.

SLIPPERY SLOPE or : A line of reasoning in which there is no gray area or middle ground. It states that x, y, z are implicit in step a. The primary characteristic is that it fails to distinguish between (or among) degrees of difference. It argues for (or against) the first step because if you take the first step, you will inevitably follow through to the last.

-Explanation Fallacies-

QUESTIONABLE CAUSE. The fallacy of questionable cause is committed when, on insufficient evidence, we identify a cause for an occurrence that has taken place or a fact that is true.

UNTESTABILITY: The theory advanced to explain why some phenomena occurs cannot be tested. We test a theory by means of its predictions. For example, a theory may predict that light bends under certain conditions, or that a liquid will change color if sprayed with acid, or that a psychotic person will respond badly to particular stimuli. If the predicted event fails to occur, then this is evidence against the theory.
A theory cannot be tested when it makes no predictions. It is also untestable when it predicts events which would occur whether or not the theory were true.

-Inductive Fallacies-

ARGUMENT FROM ANALOGY or FALSE ANALOGY: An unsound form of inductive argument in which an argument is based completely or relies heavily on analogy to prove its point.

FAR-FETCHED HYPOTHESIS: A fallacy of inductive reasoning that is committed when we accept a particular hypothesis when a more acceptable hypothesis, or one more strongly based in fact, is available.

HASTY GENERALIZATION: A generalization accepted on the support of a sample that is too small or biased to warrant it.

-Missing the Point Fallacies-

CONTRARY TO FACT HYPOTHESIS: This fallacy is committed when we state with an unreasonable degree of certainty the results of an event that might have occurred but did not.

RED HERRING: This fallacy introduces an irrelevant issue into a discussion as a diversionary tactic. It takes people off the issue at hand; it is beside the point.

STRAW MAN: This fallacy occurs when we misrepresent an opponent's position to make it easier to attack, usually by distorting his or her views to ridiculous extremes. This can also take the form of attacking only the weak premises in an opposing argument while ignoring the strong ones.

TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT: This fallacy is committed when we try to justify an apparently wrong action by charges of a similar wrong. The underlying assumption is that if they do it, then we can do it too and are somehow justified.

-Non Sequitur Fallacies-

AFFIRMING THE CONSEQUENT: An invalid form of the conditional argument in which the second premise affirms the consequent of the first premise and the conclusion affirms the antecedent.

DENYING THE ANTECEDENT: An invalid form of the conditional argument in which the second premise denies the antecedent of the first premise, and the conclusion denies the consequent.

INCONSISTENCY: A discourse is inconsistent or self-contradicting if it contains, explicitly or implicitly, two assertions that are logically incompatible with each other. Inconsistency can also occur between words and actions.

NON SEQUITUR: In this fallacy the premises have no direct relationship to the conclusion. This fallacy appears in political speeches and advertising with great frequency.

-Statistical Syllogism Fallacies-

ACCIDENT: A general rule is applied when circumstances suggest that an exception to the rule should apply.

CONVERSE ACCIDENT: An exception to a generalization is applied to cases where the generalization should apply.

-Syllogism Error Fallacies-

FALLACY OF EXCLUSION: Important evidence which would undermine an inductive
argument is excluded from consideration. The requirement that all relevant information be included is called the "principle of total evidence."

FALLACY OF DRAWING AN AFFIRMATIVE CONCLUSION FROM A NEGATIVE PREMISE: The conclusion of a standard form categorical syllogism is affirmative, but at least one of the premises is negative.

ILLICIT MAJOR: The predicate term of the conclusion refers to all members of that category, but the same term in the premises refers only to some members of that category.


All joking aside. Perilous days are ahead of us and it is good that we are concerned for each other.
See it in that light and His Light - His Word and we'll gather with Him one great day and smile together.

S
sermonindex

moe wrote:
To trust in God and God alone is the question right.
I myself and the one that this post that you replied to, say we should trust in God and we also feel God expects us to resist evil in prayers and actions and not prayers alone, that should not be a point of anger brother.

Just as yourself and many others feel that one should not be involved in government or military action and if they do it makes them ungodly, should that be a point of anger towards us that don't see it in that manner? I see the issue as Ccchhhrrriiisss sees it, and yes, he made an error who did the helo comment. I have made the same error in replies. I'm sure it is was not intentional.

It seems after 200 years of our nation history and "IN GOD WE TRUST" has took on a whole different meaning in thinking and believing and discernment of God's Word, most of Americans in 2007 see it the way you do, but not 200 years of running history prior to 40 years ago. The question is were we wrong for 200 years, or are we wrong now? If we were wrong then, man God sure blessed us in our wrong doings, didn't HE. I am fearful the blessing for our nation is about over because we have changed. The change started about 40 years ago and has went down hill ever since. I don't want to go over all of it we all know it, our liberal federal judges kicked God and Bible out of school because our kids might actually believe the 10 commandments were actually from God, the judges did it, with a little j, they also made abortion legal, now a man can marry another man, a women the same. Rom 1:23-28 and a whole bunch more ungodly garbage has happened in the last 40 years.

At the birth of our nation in 1776, most of the framers of the US constitution were preachers, ordained ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Many who faught our enemies in the US battle were preachers.

He_riegns, we can all make the anology that things have changed drastically in our theology in America and the world, reviewing with world and American history, even if we are young when it happened, can see what really happened,if we want to know the true story. www.wallbuilders.com
They are in the process going on now, in changing the history books, and there have already been changes made, that want really won't reflect the true history of America.
We all know though, without a doubt things have drastically changed in our nation. God will sort all this out, I am confident of that. Maybe not the thread, but the situation. I am trusting in HIM and HIM alone to do just that, my hope is not the government, but until then, I am going to stand against evil, vote for the person in whom I discern is Godly and will stand for Godly principles, in way we did for 200 years before so many got intelligent form liberal university professors who don't even know God. With Jesus Christ as Lord and God's Word in my heart, I plan on standing with those, who stand against evil in the same in the manner as Ccchhhrrriiisss spoke of, and I will be in prayer before, after, and in between everything I just said. Anything is worthless, unless it is bathed in prayer, NOT US BUT CHRIST. I will ALSO continue to urge others to do the same in standing against evil. We can all agree on our nation and the whole world needs prayer. Brother you pray and while we pray, let us do what each of us do what we feel in our hearts that God would have us do, instead of protesting what the others convictions are. If you have some scripture to post concerning the subject, fine, don't refer me to a book written by man that was not an Apostle writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I think that is one of the main problems today are the books of men. If anyone refers me to a book, let it be the Bible. Not all books are as I speak, but they are many books that are edifying to the scriptures and many don't and are lies. The books that do indeed edify and confirm the scriptures are far apart and few in between especially in our liberal world, as we know it, today. JMO brother:-D

S
sermonindex

Brother Moe, the most important point I may see in your post is that you have seen "anger" in my post.
There is no way that was relayed in my post - just the contrary.
As I posted at the first - that this issue should Not cause us to turn against a brother over a president - that was my first response.

I do feel this is not the same country in which us older ones have grown up in. That because of "technology" = the computer system [IT], etc. - our "votes" do not hold the same power that they once may have had. Also in looking at exit polls compared to the final Electoral College result.
I voted last for Ronald Reagan - that was the last, because I was made aware that my vote was not counted [believe that or not] and in the last 20 years, I have only seen one potentially good candidate who no one had even heard of, that was running.
That was intentional - which also shows the control over the Election process.
He was an incredibly conservative Christian running under the Constitutional Party.
Most Christians don't even know that there was a Constitutional Party running that year. But that Party hasn't a snow balls chance in the Equator to be seen nor heard.
Yes and I did also find out that our History has been manipulated many more years ago than even you or I have been alive. It is all very sad to me.

You and Ccchhhrrriiisss are dear and sensitive men, in my view of your other posts, so please see that there has never been 'anger' in any of my posts on this secular issue. Far from it.
I truly to empathize with our differences and my main reason for even getting involved at all, with a topic such as this, was to just post Scripture and try to understand how we can come to an amicable understanding of both our sides and possibly find the Biblical answer - Most Especially for all of our futures in these Last Days where 'Deception' is running rampant.
Bless you brother and may His Love and Truth alone, reign in our hearts.

But I will confess - I have gotten angry on the suicide issue.:-(
Be angry but sin not - protect the vulnerable - you know, I'm sure.

S
sermonindex

I do feel this is not the same country in which us older ones have grown up in. That because of "technology" = the computer system [IT], etc. - our "votes" do not hold the same power that they once may have had. Also in looking at exit polls compared to the final Electoral College result.

moe_mac
Sorry to inform you, but the electoral college vote has always been there. I would go into detail on why it was put in place, but I don't want to get into another debate and I'm sure it would.

R
rookie

As it stands now, who would you vote for?

Mit Romney(SP?) or Hillary Clinton?

Romney is Mormon and Clinton is Methodist?

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

Men of Ron Paul's way of thinking are few today...

THE SCHOOL OF HARD WORK OR
 HABITUATED HAND-OUTS?
by Brady Willett
FallStreet.com
September 4, 2007

After signing the ‘American Dream Downpayment Act of 2003’ Bush added, “We want people to be fully aware of what it means to buy a home and what it takes”. The contradiction, if otherwise unclear, was that the President was signing a law that gave free money to those who could not afford to buy a home, and then he planned to educate them about the hard work, savings, and planning that is required to buy a home. 

With Wall Street packaging and selling mortgage reset time bombs, rating agencies dolling out A’s first and asking questions never, and many homeowners essentially signing future default notices before their new home purchases were finalized, Bush’s efforts at expanding homeownership since 2003 have gone unnoticed as the subprime debacle widens. Unfortunately, so have the costs of funding Bush’s homeownership initiatives.  What should not remain unnoticed is the irony of it all: near the height of the housing boom Bush wanted to do everything he could to boost already record high homeownership rates, but now, as the boom turns to bust, Bush is eying a plethora of emergency policy moves to simply try and keep ownership rates stable.  You can not help but wonder whether or not many Americans would have been better off if Bush simply left the mortgage market alone.

Some are wondering exactly that. Notably, United States congressman Ron Paul, who was one of the few who stood up to tackle what was then largely hailed as a good new law:

“The American dream, as conceived by the nation's founders, has little in common with H.R. 1276, the so-called American Dream Downpayment Act. In the original version of the American dream, individuals earned the money to purchase a house through their own efforts, oftentimes sacrificing other goods to save for their first downpayment. According to the sponsors of H.R. 1276, that old American dream has been replaced by a new dream of having the federal government force your fellow citizens to hand you the money for a downpayment.”
PDF File


Whether talking about ‘what it takes’ to buy a home or keep inflation under control, Ron Paul is required reading for free market thinkers. But alas, this is reading that nearly all U.S. policy makers - perhaps more concerned with buying votes or borrowing/spending now at the expense of future generations – neither read nor deploy.

“The temptation to print and spend money with impunity, like the temptation to max out lines of credit, is too strong for government to resist.”   High Risk Credit - Aug 20, 07

As Bernanke, Bush, and others despondently stumble through their bailout handbooks in search of the recipe needed to avert disaster, what should be asked is whether the latest ‘crisis’ in subprime is the problem or the repetitive bailout policies themselves. The real lesson may not be that U.S. citizens are too naïve and gullible to live in an ownership society, or that Wall Street can not be trusted to mediate a vibrant marketplace, but that policy makers, due to their inherent loathing of free market principles, are forever mixing together costly recovery and bailout packages under the guise of keeping the financial soufflé from caving in.

Unfortunately, with Mr. Paul unlikely to become the next President of the United States, and a groundswell of voices begging the Fed to cut interest rates rather than permanently close its doors (and windows), no authority maker is likely to try and placate a society and financial system that is medicated on instant gratification.  Instead Big Brother will continue to let the children play, fight, and throw tantrums, all the while looking down with a false sense of responsibility emblazoned on their borrowed Chinese made shirts. 

For the record, and although he is not being blamed for today’s crisis, Bush’s policies of increasing U.S. homeownership rates failed; not because a few people who otherwise could not afford to got a new home, but because he added to the hazardous social shortcoming that says what comes after recess is a free lunch.


end of article...

It seems most are drunk...

In Christ
jeff

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HE_reigns...

I'm actually a little surprised by your response. I hesitate to respond, because it is difficult to distinguish between personal criticism and mere jesting. I thought about simply replying with a lone happy face (to illustrate my own view about the lack of communication on the matter, but I feared that it could be seen as a pompous smirk. I suppose that the lack of clarity is my own fault. I am extremely busy and, regretfully, have posted a few things without any sort of proofread. I apologize. I will attempt to elucidate my sometimes convoluted posts without seeming to harbor any offense. The entirety of my posts were not directed [u]AT[/u] you, pastorfrin, ginnyrose (whose anecdote I mistakenly attributed to dorcas -- my apologies to both ladies), etc... Rather, my words were simply a response to the overall tone of the discussion.

Gentlemen, I stand corrected.
I now know why Brother Frin could do nothing more last night but give the smilie back as his response.

Ccchhhrrriiisss, you either didn't read my post or something like a broken record is playing over and over inside your mind, that you consistently come back with the same answers, rather than answer Bible questions directly.
It was ginnyrose btw who mentioned the young man with the prior helicopter job.

Your posts hit almost every point of Dr. Messina's book on 'Tools for Improving Your Critical Thinking'. That's a joke though Ccchhhrrriiisss. Just a way of trying to also get us to smile through a disagreement.

I almost hesitate to post the styles that he wrote out, that we should watch out for in people's dialogue, in fear there may be a few that haven't been used as yet, that may be picked up from his list. Another joke.

Since we cannot stay Sola-Scriptura on this topic, maybe posting some jargon-jest could lighten the situation here. Somewhat like Brother Frin's smilie reply but in words.

Your apparent sublanary and disdainful superciliousness concerning my post surprises me! Although I am well aware of the various cognative fallacies in a discussion, I think that you failed to understand the essence of my posts. The repetitive nature of these posts were meant to clarify my position (in case of possible misunderstanding) and perhaps display what I feel are "flaws" within the incessant "trusting in man" argument presented. Of course, we all can agree that we should not place our trust in man. However, the disagreement is reflected in whether voting (or participating in the government) is a breach of this spiritual standard. While pastorfrin kindly smiled at my replies concerning this issue, I was only attempting to answer the question in both a direct and logical sense.

You obviously feel that I didn't "[i]answer Bible questions directly[/i]." Hmmm, should I also conclude that "[i]didn't read my post or something like a broken record is playing over and over inside your mind[/i]?" I wouldn't want to make such a bold and embarrassing dichotic declaration, particularly if I am wrong. Regardless, feel free to read over my posts again. I certainly didn't mean to appear condescending in regards to the manner in which I presented my perspective on this issue. However, I do feel that I provided several [u]Biblical[/u] anecdotes concerning New Testament involvement with government. I also attempted to provide several natural examples from life that called into question the notion that we should not vote because of our Biblical mandate to not "trust in man" (or the government). These examples were meant demonstrate that in many ways, like it or not, we are all involved in the government. They were meant to illustrate that some groups (like the Amish) could accuse each of us of such "worldliness" in terms of our daily involvement with this world.

But for the sake of clarity, let me be a little more "direct:"
•\tI feel that it is indeed possible to maintain a deep and sincere faith and an intimate relationship with our Lord while still choosing to vote in a local, state or national election.
•\tI do not feel that a person is necessarily "trusting in man" when they choose to exercise such an opportunity.
•\t"[i]All men are liars[/i]..." (Psalm 116:11), and even the best examples of godly men have been failures in various aspects/times of their lives. Since we shouldn't "trust" the writer of the New Testament in regards to the preaching of the Gospel (Galatians 1:8), what makes us think that believers are prone to "trust" in elected officials?
•\tWouldn’t it be better to simply warn individuals about “[i]trusting in man[/i]” (in [u]all[/u] things – including our votes) than writing entire posts and threads that equate “voting” or government involvement with “[i]trusting in man[/i]?” This way, a person wouldn’t misunderstand the essence of the post to reflect a belief that voting is a sign of ungodliness.

I suspect that this entire thread is puzzle of many different pieces that are ultimately carrying a similar overall message. We should never place our trust in man (including elected officials) lest we fall into snares. The question remains whether or not the act of voting is a display of such carnal “trust,” or simply a means to indirectly change a natural circumstance in the lives of our families and neighbors. With much prayer concerning this issue, I feel the liberty to continue voting. I feel that it is NOT motivated by unspiritual trust in man, but a desire to see things change on a natural level. Will my vote do anything? That remains to be seen. Some groups are hoping and “praying” that Christians (or the “religious right” as they are mockingly called by the left) will decide against voting. In fact, some groups are currently planning an attack on the tax exempt status of ministers, churches and religious groups that publicly proclaim issues that are meant to affect the attitude of the hearer in regards to some “hot button” issues. But I feel that there are causes worth my vote. Abortion, “minority” rights for homosexuals, the impedance of public displays of faith, etc… -- these are all things that I feel are worth praying, fasting, speaking and voting about. I do this because I care for my family, my neighbors and the direction of my country. I feel that this is a something that I cannot afford to neglect.

Yes, the outcome of this “spiritual war” will not be decided in a voting booth. But something as “carnal” as a vote can go a long way in regards to the life of an unborn child or the freedom of a street preacher.

:-)

“Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.”
Philippians 4:4

S
sermonindex

Ccchhhrrriiisss, I can see this is a very sensitive issue for you and because of that - have extracted from my post, that which you have taken as a slight to yourself only.

It may be better if I just repeat what I've posted from page 7 on - where I joined into this conversation, because I could not understand Brother Frin's "Smilie as an answer to you."

I see no need to continue to repeat myself in another response.

[from page 7 - Reply to Brother Frin's choice of a smilie as an answer.]

There is only one thing to smile about on this thread -

Psa 118:6 The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
Psa 118:7 The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

Psa 118:13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD helped me.
Psa 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
Psa 118:15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.
Psa 118:16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.


Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 146:5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

Psa 146:6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth forever:

Psa 146:7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:

Psa 146:8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:

Psa 146:9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

Psa 146:10 The LORD Shall Reign Forever, even Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye The LORD.

[Second reply to Brother Frin and to this topic:]

Lam 3:21-24 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
They are new every morning: "Great is Thy faithfulness"
The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in Him.

__________________________________
Lyrics: God will take care of you

Be not dismayed whatever betide,
God will take care of you;
Beneath His wings of love abide,
God will take care of you.

God will take care of you,
Through every day, over all the way;
He will take care of you,
God will take care of you.

Through days of toil when heart doth fail,
God will take care of you;
When dangers fierce your path assail,
God will take care of you.

All you may need He will provide,
God will take care of you;
Nothing you ask will be denied,
God will take care of you.

No matter what may be the test,
God will take care of you;
Lean, weary one, upon His breast,
God will take care of you.

[Reply on pg 8 - written toward whole of the matter.]

Forgive me - but this thread has completely confused me.

This nonsense started with the people of Israel demanded a "King" - that made God none too happy.
The people were the ones who initiated human government and God accommodated them, once again, as He did when they wanted the quail.
Why His people would look to "Princes", I will never understand, when it is He that rules the earth and gives the people the rulers that they deserve.
He only said to obey the laws of the land, wherein that they do not cause one to break His Own Laws.
If you believe that in this corrupt society, where big business and pay-offs will give you the candidate that you have voted for - than you know nothing of the times we are living in. A simple search into Diebold and so forth should open your eyes, unless you've believed a lie.
Unless you are a Dominianist or a Pre-Tribulation Rapture adherent, I cannot see such fervor in the affairs of men, when so many verses point to trusting God alone and not be entangled with the affairs of this world.

If you can see the Apostles and the early Church, lined up at Town Hall to step in a booth or click computer boxes, with hopes of getting in "the least of two evils", and "'crediting' the man who is in - for the freedoms that they have or the moral climate of their country", go ahead - but that is so far from Scriptural justification as one can get.
It is sad that we have strayed this far from Scripture, that this topic would even come up with those who claim a better spirituality, because they have listened to the best Sermons out there.
Had that been the case, you'd "come out from among them and be ye separate" and know that it is God Himself who raises up Kings and takes them down and not your vote.
Look at His response to the people when they asked for a king - and look at who they got and what happened from then on.
Yes, He rose up David afterwards and he represented Christ and works all things together for the good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose - but HE chose Saul - HE chose David - and He will chose the next ruler of your country - if you have a choice at all.
Only time will tell if your country is attacked and this current leader stays in place, but you should truly look further to see if the country is being run sovereignly in the first place.
Is it and has it been run "by the people" ?
Has the morality increased in the however many years or has it degenerated to almost Sodom and as it was in the days of Noah ?
If God's people, would become who they are supposed to be, then it is His people who would be the Light of this world and be feeding all of the hungry, caring for the sick and homeless.
Not the U.N.. If Ron Paul was honest, he would tell the people, there is no way to get rid of this U.N. except by having it replaced with an even worse world governance. If he were honest - he would tell the people that they are no longer being ruled by their own constitution but by the U.N..

Shame on us for relegating so very much to governments.
Again, Scripturally, you will get the leader that He has chosen and not some potentially rigged election. Even if it is not tampered with or decided by an Electoral College - you will still get the leader that He has chosen for the days we are in - as it's always been.
To fight a brother over a president is not Christian. By that I mean, it is as far from Scripture as one could get.
"Come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord of Hosts."
Do good unto all men, Especially the household of faith.
Where are our loyalies ?

Yes, as you said Ccchhhrrriiisss - more attention should have been given to the suicide discussion than to this.

Where is our "Zeal" ? It's shows too clearly where - by where we post most and how.
Where are we when life and death issues [both spiritually and physically] are posted on the Scriptures and Doctrines Portion of this Board ?
The same people who said they did not want to talk about politics, are those who are posting the most on this thread.
No - politics can be posted I see - but only the party line mentality and anything that comes against that cannot be discussed.
Be Christians first and put His Word above kings and princes and He'll take care of who gets in.
I'm still trying to picture Paul or John sitting at home and arguing on this thread that the people should get out there and vote - because it REALLY matters.

[The parts of the post you quoted from - that you didn't quote.]

But first - How can we say and then ask, "Our trust is in GOD and GOD alone --- But how could we possibly do without men ruling over us and providing our food and water and so forth ?"
I think Jesus answered that one in the Sermon on the Mount. And for each example you gave, more Scriptures could have been posted to answer.

Moving on - Dr. Messina had "Examples" after each of the following, to exhibit how each can be used.
I removed his examples because they were secular --- but I was tempted to put some examples in myself --- but it is Messina's writing, so best left alone.

All in good fun at this point and with full understanding, that as long as we pray for each other - HE will have HIS way with us all.
God Bless His Saints - despite that now we see through a glass darkly and we all are yet to go a lonnng way through some very hard days ahead until we see The Light.
I believe that is our concern here, in what some of us have posted --- the days ahead and letting go of the world and our trust in it - for soon it may compromise our very souls to do so.

Just to lighten this subject now ... Thanks.

From Jim Messina, Ph. D. and a merry heart -

All joking aside. Perilous days are ahead of us and it is good that we are concerned for each other.
See it in that light and His Light - His Word and we'll gather with Him one great day and smile together.

[Quotes from my last post:]

Brother Moe, the most important point I may see in your post is that you have seen "anger" in my post.
There is no way that was relayed in my post - just the contrary.

As I posted at the first - that this issue should Not cause us to turn against a brother over a president - that was my first response.

I do feel this is not the same country in which us older ones have grown up in. That because of "technology" = the computer system [IT], etc. - our "votes" do not hold the same power that they once may have had. Also in looking at exit polls compared to the final Electoral College result.
I voted last for Ronald Reagan - that was the last, because I was made aware that my vote was not counted [believe that or not] and in the last 20 years, I have only seen one potentially good candidate who no one had even heard of, that was running.
That was intentional - which also shows the control over the Election process.
He was an incredibly conservative Christian running under the Constitutional Party.
Most Christians don't even know that there was a Constitutional Party running that year. But that Party hasn't a snow balls chance in the Equator to be seen nor heard.
Yes and I did also find out that our History has been manipulated many more years ago than even you or I have been alive. It is all very sad to me.

You and Ccchhhrrriiisss are dear and sensitive men, in my view of your other posts, so please see that there has never been 'anger' in any of my posts on this secular issue. Far from it.
I truly to empathize with our differences and my main reason for even getting involved at all, with a topic such as this, was to just post Scripture and try to understand how we can come to an amicable understanding of both our sides and possibly find the Biblical answer - Most Especially for all of our futures in these Last Days where 'Deception' is running rampant.
Bless you brother and may His Love and Truth alone, reign in our hearts.

S
sermonindex

Father, I pray that you crush us, that you break us, and lift us up... the people that you want us to be. We have been self-seeking, even for good and right reasons we have sought our own. Forgive us, Lord, our trespasses and lead us into your evelasting way. You have allowed us to go thus far. May you also complete your purpose for our coming. For we are near-sighted human beings... I pray that you deal with out hearts, that you cleanse them from anything that displeases or grieves you. May your will be done in us, Father--not ours, but yours, whatever it may be. I pray that you open our eyes to see, lest we think we stand for too long. We need your grace every day, that we may not become arrogant and all-knowing. You've called to love each other as you loved us and wash each other's feet. May this be so. May your Spirit lead us to do what is lovely in your sight. In Christ's name. Amen.

P
pastorfrin

Separation of Church and State
Tract 31E30
by Joseph Keener
published by Rod and Staff Publishers, Inc.

"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36)

In this explanation Jesus makes it clear that there is a definite separation between His kingdom and the kingdoms of this world. The fact that Jesus had not allowed His disciples to defend Him was evidence enough of this fact. Christ's kingdom is heavenly and seeks the reconciliation of the sinner to God, but civil and world governments are of this earth and seek for power and supremacy.

The separation of church and state is also taught in 2 Corinthians 5:20 where the Christian is referred to as an ambassador - "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ." An ambassador is one who represents one country to another. He does not become involved in the government of the other country but seeks the welfare of his own. Likewise, the Christian does not become involved in the affairs of earthly governments but represents the heavenly kingdom to them. He is in this world but is not of this world (John 17:16). His work is spiritual, not political. His responsibility is to help the people of this world to give their allegiance to the heavenly kingdom of Christ.

A key passage of Scripture in helping us to understand the relationship of the church to the state is Romans 13. It is significant that in this chapter there is no instruction given to the Christian concerning his involvement in the affairs of the state. Neither is there any teaching given to the state for the Christian to follow. This Scripture is solely given to the believer to instruct him in his obligation to and his attitude toward the civil authorities over him. He is taught to pay taxes, to honor, and to obey.

The purpose of the state, as taught in Romans 13, is seen to be in conflict with the teachings of Jesus to His disciples. In verse 4 we read, "For he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." In contrast, Jesus told His disciples, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52). When the soldiers came to John the Baptist and inquired concerning what they must do to repent, he said, "Do violence to no man" (Luke 3:14). In Romans 12:19 we read, "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." With purposes so diverse, it is impossible to be consistent while serving in both capacities. God is calling the church to be separate from the state.

The separation of church and state is not an Old Testament doctrine. God separated Abraham from his own people to make of him a great nation (Genesis 12:2). As a nation, God gave His people laws concerning the restraining of evil and the punishment of the evildoer. He placed a sword in their hand and commanded them to use it in bringing judgment upon other ungodly nations (Deuteronomy 20:17). Israel's civil law demanded life for life, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth (Deuteronomy 19:21). God also charged Israel with a spiritual ministry. He worked through them to reconcile other peoples to Himself. In this sense, the Jewish nation embodied both the responsibility of an earthly kingdom and the responsibility of the heavenly kingdom.

In the change of covenants the role of church and state have been separated. No longer is it the responsibility of God's people to wield God's sword of vengeance against His enemies. No longer is it the responsibility of the state to be the standard bearer of truth. There are now two entities with diverse goals and interests. Failure to see this difference between the two covenants leads to confusion and misapplication of this vital New Testament doctrine.

The separation of church and state reaches into the practical expressions of everyday life. For example: Should the Christian participate in the military when Jesus has commanded him to love his enemies? Should he be an officer of the law when he is commanded not to resist evil? Should a Christian hold political offices and vote when he is an ambassador of another country? Should the Christian seek to coerce his government for rights by lobbying or various forms of protest when his concern is the salvation of souls? The consistent answer is no. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty" (2 Corinthians 6:17, 18).

God Establishes and Overrules in Governments

God establishes governments. "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1).

Civil power is God-given. "Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin" (John 19:10, 11).

Men in government are placed there by God. "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men" (Daniel 4:17). Also see Daniel 4:25, 32.

The Lord directs the decisions of civil leaders. "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will" (Proverbs 21:1).

The Work of Government

Government is established to keep order in society. "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Romans 13:4).

Collecting taxes is a God-given right. "For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour" (Romans 13:6, 7).

"And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him" (Mark 12:13-17).

Our Duty to the Government

We should respect our leaders. "Honour the king" (1 Peter 2:17).

We should pray for our leaders. "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour" (1 Timothy 2:1-3).

We should pay taxes. "And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's and unto God the things which be God's" (Luke 20:25).

We should obey our leaders. "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God" (1 Peter 2:13-15).

"Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation" (Romans 13:2).

God's Intention for the Christian

His nation is a holy nation. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9).

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13).

He seeks a better country. "These all . . . confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. . . . But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly" (Hebrews 11:13, 16).

He represents another country. "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:20).


C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi HE_reigns...

Ccchhhrrriiisss, I can see this is a very sensitive issue for you and because of that - have extracted from my post, that which you have taken as a slight to yourself only.
Actually, I'm not offended at all. I didn't even feel "slighted" -- until someone else privately pointed out your response (along with pastorfrin's happy face -- which I personally didn't take as a smirk). In fact, I wasn't planning on spending much time in this thread.

I suppose that I simply wanted to make others aware that there are many believers who prayerfully and carefully choose to exercise their right to vote. No one has the right to accuse them of "trusting in man" -- but everyone certainly has a right to warn them of avoiding such blind, worldly trust. I do strongly feel that voting can (and does) make a difference -- even if it is just temporary. However, I feel that life itself is extremely temporary.

The political discussions are purposely limited at SermonIndex. Past experience has shown that such discussions are rarely fruitful. Each person seems so sincerely convinced of their beliefs, that the "discussion" often turns into hurtful rebuttals or attempts to convert the masses. Most of the time, I simply avoid offering my "two cents" in the matter -- even though I feel fairly confident concerning my position. Yet I imagine that we all feel that this is a "sensitive" issue -- which is probably the reason that some bring it up so often.

Anyway, I hope that you know that I don't feel the least bit of animosity toward you. We can all agree with this Scripture-filled quote provided by pastorfrin below. While our interpretation as to the extent in which believers can or should be involved in government (or the governmental process) may vary, we can all agree on the need to serve our King first and foremost. While I will still see voting as an opportunity to bring about change in regards to the state's conduct, it is certainly not my primary goal in life. My primary goal is to know Him -- and to seek Him who is invisible. Heaven and Earth (and the government itself) can and will pass away, but my heart is reserved for the One whom I love so much.

Will I vote in the primaries or the election? Probably. I will vote according to my conscience. I will vote for the good of my family, my neighbor, my faith and my nation. I will vote according to causes, such as the murder of unborn children or the attempted legislated acceptance of sin. Regardless of whether I vote or for whom/what I will vote, I will remain in prayer. My life's goal is, first, to know Christ in pure intimacy and, secondly, to bring this same desire to the masses. But in this pursuit, I will continue to fulfill certain natural obligations and options -- including work, paying my taxes and voting.

Maranatha!

:-)

S
sermonindex

Saw the debate last night... paid particular attention to Ron Paul since his name has come up on this forum as the one Christians should vote for... and all I have to say is [b]I was not impressed[/b]!

Wow, he's a nut.

I was with him when he said he would abolish the IRS... but when he said he would abolish the FBI and the CIA... uhmmm... he lost me.

Ron Paul's campaign slogan should be "What We Need Is Less Intelligence!" ... lol

Krispy

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sermonindex

He lost me when he said he thought taking about his faith wasn't an important thing for office and also that homosexuals should be able to get married if they like.

S
sermonindex

He lost me when he said he thought taking about his faith wasn't an important thing for office and also that homosexuals should be able to get married if they like.

Agreed... I didnt mean to imply by ommission that that wasnt equally important.

Even tho the media and Hollywierd would crucify someone who took a real stand for Christ while running for office... I personally think most Americans would find it refreshing.

Krispy

B
BeYeDoers

I also watched part of the debate...and I agree with Krispy's assessment...this guy is a nut job (I am NOT attacking his faith...don't know the guy). He said 9/11 happened b/c we had troops in Saudi Arabia? When was this guy born? Osama is simply being a good Muslim and obeying his Quran...and they kill their own people all the time. They are terrorists...they don't care who or when or what. And to his solution to the war/terror/national security problem, I have two words: Neville Chamberlain

S
sermonindex

I also watched part of the debate...and I agree with Krispy's assessment...this guy is a nut job (I am NOT attacking his faith...don't know the guy). He said 9/11 happened b/c we had troops in Saudi Arabia? When was this guy born? Osama is simply being a good Muslim and obeying his Quran...and they kill their own people all the time. They are terrorists...they don't care who or when or what. And to his solution to the war/terror/national security problem, I have two words: Neville Chamberlain

Someone who has no understanding of Islam, who wants to be president, bothers me. But, some on this forum think we should ignore the elections all together.

Gonna go dig a hole in the yard now in which to stick my head... ;-)

Krispy

P
pastorfrin

Christian Citizenship
The following article was presented to families of Elliott Prairie Christian School and Hopewell Mennonite Church as a letter from the principal. I wrote this on November 4, 1994. I thought you might be interested in "chewing" this a bit. Please be sure that none of this was written in judgment of my Christian brothers and sisters who participate in politics.

It is required in stewards
that a man be found faithful
Everywhere we look we see reminders of our role in life: stewards. God has entrusted into our care our bodies, our families, our possessions, our church, our school, our resources, our abilities, our opportunities, our friends and neighbors. I am sure you could lengthen the list with things I missed. God has convicted me recently of one which I did not include in the list. Let me lead up to it by posing a few questions to you.

1. Which of these Oregon ballot measures legalizes doctor-assisted
suicide?

(a) Measure 13 (b) Measure 16 (c) Measure 19 (d) Measure 20

2. Which of these Oregon ballot measures is called "anti gay rights"?

(a) Measure 13 (b) Measure 16 (c) Measure 19 (d) Measure 20

3. Which of these Oregon ballot measures is against child pornography?

(a) Measure 13 (b) Measure 16 (c) Measure 19 (d) Measure 20

4. Who is not a candidate for governor of Oregon?

(a) Denny Smith (b) John Kitzhaber (c) Ed Hickam (d) Jolene Unsold

On Tuesday, Oregon voters face an array of daunting decisions which will impact the state and its citizens and residents for a few years, at least. Oregon citizens have the civic duty and privilege to vote. To stay home is inexcusable. It is the dereliction of duty. It almost seems there ought to be a penalty for not voting. To not vote is to despise citizenship.
I won't vote, though. I am not an Oregon citizen. I am merely a resident of this state. I was born a citizen of Oregon and of the United States of America, but some twenty years ago I pledged allegiance to a different country. "For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await --the Lord Jesus Christ--" (Philippians 3:20, Young's Literal Translation). As a heavenly citizen, I have other duties and privileges. I must not be derelict in their execution.

Did you ever wish you could vote for a certain candidate or on a certain issue? Did you ever wish you could at least sign a petition? In my weaker moments, I have. I would like to contribute my voice in the defeat of certain measures and candidates. However, voting and signing are such meager things for us to do. Even lobbying voters is a flimsy, short-term effort. As a heavenly citizen, I would be misdirecting my efforts if I were to involve myself in these things. Furthermore, I believe I would be violating my heavenly charter, "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God . . ." (2 Corinthians 10:4).

I can no more vote in Oregon than Walter Mondale can vote in Japan. Mr. Mondale is not a citizen of Japan, he is only a resident. Not only that, Mr. Mondale represents a foreign power--he is the U.S. ambassador there. It would be quite indecorous for him to get involved in local politics . . . and he would likely lose his ambassadorship. Not only am I a foreigner living in Oregon, I represent a foreign power! "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ . . ." (2 Corinthians 5:20). I would be very out-of-line getting involved in local politics . . . and would do so at my own peril.

So what is the stewardship to which I referred at the beginning? Our ambassadorship. Just because I don't vote doesn't mean I should not be involved in the civic affairs of this state and this nation. In fact, I now see that for me to totally distance myself from local politics is a gross dereliction of duty. My duty is to pray, and through faith, to join the elite group who "subdued kingdoms" (Hebrews 11:33). Part of my assignment here is to perceive where the Enemy is trying to gain ground in the affairs of men . . . and then fight him there. So I believe that God expects that we raly to the battle to be waged this coming Tuesday. We must pray with vim and vigor, with zeal and faith, with tenacity and persistence to defeat the expanding unrighteousness in this state and country. I believe God wants me to pray (not vote, not put up signs, not lobby voters) against the anti-Biblical measures the voters of this state will face soon. Join me in the fight? Remember your stewardship!

One closing observation. Civic and party leaders and activists tell the citizenry, "Your vote counts! Don't minimize the power of your voice! Be a patriotic citizen!" Well, heavenly ambassadors can access something much more powerful than any vote or combination of votes: "The most High ruleth in the kingdom of men" (Daniel 4:17)!

- Mark Roth (November 4, 1994)

I
IRONMAN

Dear Saints

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

to be sure dear saints, there are some Muslims out there who certainly don't want U.S. presence in any form, especially military, on Arab lands. So then to the Muslim who would plot to attack America, this is a very valid reason. Note i am not saying it is right, only valid in the mind of a Muslim. Also it is important to consider the nature of this religion. indeed the Koran does say to kill infidels and so to the so called "radical" Muslim, this is a valid reason to kill people. Now those Muslims who do this according to the koran are good Muslims in the sense that they follow the book. For us all these things are abstract because we reason differently. The irony is that these people worship a demon and they do so with such fervor as to kill and be killed for him while we of the True Faith are not always so keen for our God. It is a sad thing when the people of God are upstaged by the devil's agents.

another thing we ought to consider is what if God used these Muslims to be instruments of Judgment on 9-11? this would not be unusual for God to so do, in fact i am quite confidently convinced this is what happened. Obviously there is need for government to do whatever must be done in response, i have no issue with that at all. i feel however the primary response ought to be repentence because God doesn't just let things happen without reason. do you see brethren the bondage of this world at work? indeed men have fought and died for what we call freedom but that freedom is really another form of bondage to a system by which we have to fight and do whatever to preserve "freedom" There is but one form of Freedom and that is Jesus. all else is bondage in one form or another.

we are on the verge of something much more cataclysmic. i am unsure if it will involve Muslims but i would not be surprised. i know the economy will collapse and that fire will fall on NYC and DC on that same day. Some other saints have been shown cataclysm hitting other cities also, perhaps on the same day or just before or after, i am unsure. i know however we ought to be on our faces repenting.

as for the upcoming elections, seek God and do as He says. If it is to vote, then vote, if it is to abstain then abstain but whichever it is DO YE IT.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

R
rookie

What do you think about the newest choice to be paraded before this nation...Thompson?

In Christ
Jeff

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sermonindex


rookie wrote:
What do you think about the newest choice to be paraded before this nation...Thompson?

In Christ
Jeff

moe_mac wrote:
He doesn't seem like the idea choice to me but nevertheless is at the top of the field, when you view the whole field of both parties. The ones who have a chance to win I would say. To me about 80% of the field in all parties is a big joke. I wouldn't vote for most of them for animal control officer of in a small town let alone vote for them as president.

C
Chariot

this guy is a nut job...He said 9/11 happened b/c we had troops in Saudi Arabia?

i guess i'm a nut case also cause i can't bring myself to believe that our countries foreign policy in the middle east won't be met with some kind of retaliation, that it will not foment great antipathy. Are we to believe that the hatred of some wings of Islam happen in a vacuum?

Someone who has no understanding of Islam, who wants to be president, bothers me.

Which is why i don't understand how Bush was reelcected for a second term. Which is why i don't understand why most of the Republicans, running on a religious platform, still think the answers to Islam involve bombing them into oblivion.

some on this forum think we should ignore the elections all together

I try to understand these elections within a wider context. Eight years of Clinton a democrat, and eight years of Bush a republican have only shown me one thing - that the presidency, and especially this current admin, and the vice presidency have garnered themselves enormous amounts of executive power.
I see this two party - for lack of a better term - joke, as different sides of the same coin. Thus understading that i have the right to vote, i will instead refrain. Having said that, a Gravel/Paul ticket my get me to the polls.

What do you think about the newest choice to be paraded before this nation...Thompson?

You mean Hollywood Thompson, the candidate who forwent the Faux news debates to appear on the Jay Leno show. That didn't seem to rub well with Fox, the other candidates got a few licks in as well.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Chariot...

You mean Hollywood Thompson, the candidate who forwent the [b]Faux news[/b] debates to appear on the Jay Leno show.
Ummm...I suppose that you are talking maliciously about FOX NEWS? Don't worry, you don't have to take a cheap shot at that particular media outlet using a malicious slur that is popular with members of the far left. Whether or not you agree with them is beside the point, you can still call the network by its actual name.

As for your post, you might want to look into the history of Islam and the Qu'ran. The reason for such violence in the Middle East -- and the periods where such violence was properly contained -- can be ascertained by a proper understanding of the Islamic radicalism that felt themselves "empowered" during the 1970s Islamic revolution and as embraced by the Qu'ran.

:-(

C
Chariot

Ummm...I suppose that you are talking maliciously about FOX NEWS? Don't worry, you don't have to take a cheap shot at that particular media outlet using a malicious slur that is popular with members of the far left. Whether or not you agree with them is beside the point, you can still call the network by its actual name.

o.k., didn't mean to step on anyones toes, but just so, i have no use for any of the many mainstream networks found on cable, whether the far right , Fox - is that better :) - or NBC ABC or whoever. Not only is that term popular with the so called far left, its also popular with us who would deam ourselves in the middle who doen't see Fox as a reliable outlet. So malicious...if you say so. I do not single out Fox as the only FAUX news network.


As for your post, you might want to look into the history of Islam and the Qu'ran. The reason for such violence in the Middle East -- and the periods where such violence was properly contained -- can be ascertained by a proper understanding of the Islamic radicalism that felt themselves "empowered" during the 1970s Islamic revolution and as embraced by the Qu'ran.

How is this appllied to my post. I ask this geniunely. What im implying in the least is that American Foreign policy to whatever degree did incite the terrorrist who did what they did.

B
Bomar

Interviewer: What is the meaning of your call for Muslims to take arms against America in particular, and what is the message that you wish to send to the West in general?

Osama Bin Laden: The call to wage war against America was made because America has spear-headed the crusade against the Islamic nation, sending tens of thousands of its troops to the land of the two Holy Mosques over and above its meddling in its affairs and its politics, and its support of the oppressive, corrupt and tyrannical regime that is in control. These are the reasons behind the singling out of America as a target. And not exempt of responsibility are those Western regimes whose presence in the region offers support to the American troops there.

~ Osama Bin Laden, Interview w/ ABC Reporter John Miller in 1988


Later on in the interview.....

Osama Bin Laden:For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed. And the strange thing is that any act on their part to avenge themselves or to lift the injustice befalling them causes great agitation in the United Nations which hastens to call for an emergency meeting only to convict the victim and to censure the wronged and the tyrannized whose children have been killed and whose crops have been destroyed and whose farms have been pulverized. ...

In today's wars, there are no morals, and it is clear that mankind has descended to the lowest degrees of decadence and oppression. They rip us of our wealth and of our resources and of our oil. Our religion is under attack. They kill and murder our brothers. They compromise our honor and our dignity and dare we utter a single word of protest against the injustice, we are called terrorists. This is compounded injustice. And the United Nations insistence to convict the victims and support the aggressors constitutes a serious precedence which shows the extent of injustice that has been allowed to take root in this land. ...

Not that I sympathize with Islam or Osama Bin Laden, but you must at least acknowledge that the US has reaped what it has sown.

Our nation, like most all, is run by wicked men ruled by the prince of darkness.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Bomar...

Not that I sympathize with Islam or Osama Bin Laden, but you must at least acknowledge that the US has reaped what it has sown.
...IF you were to believe the words of this violent terrorist.

The fact remains that he carried this out because of US support for Israel and US support for the presence of any non-Muslim in "Muslim" lands. Sadly, Islam teaches that the entire world should be claimed in the name of "Allah." Did you ever wonder why the Muslims invaded Europe and Africa during the dark ages?

:-(

B
Bomar

Hello Chris,

Yes, I know that of the seed of Ishmael:

"He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him"

~Genesis 16:12

I realize that all of this is prophetic, leading up to the end.

However, I was posting that in reference to someeone earlier saying Ron Paul was a "nutjob" because he believed our presence had something to do with the 9-11 attacks....Ron Paul was only giving the reason Osama Bin Laden gave, as well as history.

The US has been in the middle-east for decades now, stripping their oil wealth, killing people, etc.

You and I may see OBL as a terrorist, which is true...but we need to acknowledge that the US has been just as much a terrorist to them in this most recent run of things. I think you could say it started when we led a coup against Iran's elected leader Mohammad Mossadegh and installed the Shah back into power, who was a brutal dictator.

We also financed Saddam Hussein (you can see photos of Rumsfield shaking hands with him if you google search) helping him rise to the power he achieved, before he turned on the US' allies in the area.

That was 2 brutal dictators that we installed and supported in order to further our oil interests in the region.

We may see them as terrorists, they see themselves as freedom fighters, "david vs. goliath" if you will.

So, to say Ron Paul is a nut-job would be to completely disregard historical context, criminal testimony, the 9-11 commission report, as well as the CIA's opinion of this theory called "blowback".

They might be a wild violent people, but we have done things to become their "main target".

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Bomar...

I hestitated to answer this, but I believe that this can be discussed within the context of the original post. When discussing such issues, however, we really need to be careful about distinguishing between what is fact and what is opinion.

For instance, this...

However, I was posting that in reference to someeone earlier saying Ron Paul was a "nutjob" because he believed our presence had something to do with the 9-11 attacks....Ron Paul was only giving the reason Osama Bin Laden gave...
...is factful, while this...
...as well as history.
...is merely your opinion about the history of the matter.

This also...

The US has been in the middle-east for decades now, stripping their oil wealth, killing people, etc.
...is opinion. Do you see how this sounds? It appears that you are implying that the United States has a presence in Middle East in order to "strip their oil" and "kill." Do you even know how much money the United States makes from Middle Eastern oil?!? Who is actually making money from it...the US or the wealthy oil producing nations? Many of these nations are unfriendly (and downright hateful) with the US -- except when it comes to selling their oil to our nation.
You and I may see OBL as a terrorist, which is true...but we need to acknowledge that the US has been just as much a terrorist to them in this most recent run of things.
I cannot acknowledge how Osama bin Laden sees the United States because I have never interviewed him. From what I have heard him say, he sounds like just another militant Islamic extremist who is upset with US recognition of Israel.
I think you could say it started when we led a coup against Iran's elected leader Mohammad Mossadegh and installed the Shah back into power, who was a brutal dictator.
I partially agree with this. The CIA helped overthrow Mohammed Mossadegh (born in 1882) because of his pro-socialist, pro-Soviet, anti-Western rhetoric during the midst of the bipolar balance days of the Cold War. President Eisenhower and Prime Minister Winston Churchill felt that something needed to be done before Iran was completely aligned with the communist Soviet Union. The CIA in 1952, during Operation Ajax, actually used pro-US Iranians in order to instigate some of the public criticism of Mohammed Mossadegh. Interestingly, these pro-US Iranians posed as fiery pro-Mossadegh loyalists. They displayed radical tendencies that helped ostracize the legitimacy of Mossadegh's power. The people of Iran decided to align themselves with 21 year old Mohammad Reza Pahlavi -- who was legally the Shah (King). While the British were ultimately responsible for his father's exile and his ultimate rise to power, it was only with the consent of the people.
We also financed Saddam Hussein (you can see photos of Rumsfield shaking hands with him if you google search) helping him rise to the power he achieved, before he turned on the US' allies in the area.
Again, we need to seperate what is fact and what is opinion. Saddam did not rise to power as a result of the United States. He came to power as the result of a bloodless coup led by Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr (who became the President of Iraq). When al-Bakr stepped down (reportedly due to health reasons), Saddam Hussein became President of Iraq. There was no involvement ever reported that the US, CIA or any other Western influence was used to create a vacuum of power for Hussein.

During the Carter Administration, at the time that the Iranian government held the 52 hostages from the US Embassy in Tehran (from 1979-1981), Iraq invaded Iran. The US viewed both governments with suspicion, but was more concerned with the unstable, radical-fundamentalist government of Iran. At the time, the United States was not in conflict with Iraq, nor had Saddam Hussein displayed any tendencies that were peculiar with the Islamic world. In fact, he seemed quite open to Western ideas. The US did sell Iraq a few weapons, but nothing of a substantial nature (or anything that was uncommon during that time). When the extent of Hussein's ruthlessness became apparent, the US formerly severed all but a few international ties. The photos of Don Rumsfeld are from the period when he was Secretary of Defense during the Ford Administration (in which he met with everyone from Saddam Hussein to Leonid Brezhnev of the Soviet Union -- which was not an embracement of EITHER figure or government).

That was 2 brutal dictators that we installed and supported in order to further our oil interests in the region.
Again, this is an opinion that I do not feel is based upon fact.
We may see them as terrorists, they see themselves as freedom fighters, "david vs. goliath" if you will.
They also feel that their religion is the only one that matters. They also see their suicide bombers as "martyrs" -- but that doesn't make it correct.
So, to say Ron Paul is a nut-job would be to completely disregard historical context, criminal testimony, the 9-11 commission report, as well as the CIA's opinion of this theory called "blowback".

They might be a wild violent people, but we have done things to become their "main target".

While I strongly disagree with Ron Paul's Middle Eastern policies, I wouldn't label him a "nutjob." I just don't believe that he completely understands the situation in the Middle East. I am mostly troubled by his isolationist rhetoric and his desire to get rid of the CIA. His background is in medicine and biology, so he may just be unaware of the historical issues in the Middle East or the issues regarding national security. That being said, I do agree with many of Mr. Paul's ideas concerning abortion and capital punishment (among others).

Again, let us be careful to distinguish between fact and opinion. Sometimes, there is a very thin line between what is a truth and what is an assumption based upon other things we know. However, we would do well in making such a distinction.

:-)

S
sermonindex

[b]Bush holds 'war council' in Iraq

Mr Bush is facing intense debate over his troop surge strategy
US President George W Bush has met senior US and Iraqi officials at a US air base in Anbar province in Iraq.

"This is the [u]last[/u] big gathering of the president's military advisers and the Iraqi leadership before the president decides on the way forward"
Geoff Morrell
Pentagon spokesman[/b]

Look at the map of the region where all eyes should be watching.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6976250.stm

[b]Clash with Cheney over Iran Prompted Rove Departure[/b]
Commentary, Ray McGovern, Posted: Sep 03, 2007
"It is as though I'm back as an analyst at the CIA, trying to estimate the chances of an attack on Iran."
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=16887b1e9eda6f46c27cb6c97d01d145
Ray McGovern is a 27-year veteran analyst of the CIA and co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS). McGovern was one of President Ronald Reagan's intelligence briefers from 1981-85 when he was in charge of preparing daily security briefs for the President, the Vice President, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Cabinet and National Security Advisor. Later, McGovern was one of several senior CIA analysts who prepared the President's Daily Brief (PDB) for President George H.W. Bush. Upon retirement, McGovern was awarded the Intelligence Commendation Medal from Bush and worked for Washington-based non-profits before becoming co-director of the Servant Leadership School in Washington.
With 15 other VIPS, Ray McGovern participated in a protest of torture and returned his Intelligence Commendation Award medallion to Congressman Pete Hoekstra, R-MI, and Chair of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. He argued that he did "not wish to be associated, however remotely, with an agency engaged in torture," and that "this is an order of magnitude different from my experiences in the past — there has been torture before, but never before has it been ordered and openly justified."
Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) is a group of current and former officials of the United States Intelligence Community, including some from the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the U.S. State Department's Intelligence Bureau, and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA).
"VIPS is a group of 30 retired senior intelligence officers formed in January of 2003 to keep watch on the use/abuse of intelligence primarily regarding Iraq. "Most of us are from the analytic ranks of the CIA, but we have strong representation from the operations officers as well and we are truly an intelligence community body inasmuch as retired officers from State Department Intelligence, Defense Intelligence, Army Intelligence and the FBI are also members. This group issued a letter before the 2003 invasion of Iraq warning that there would potentially be numerous U.S. casualties if Iraq used chemical weapons during any "offensive aimed at getting rid of Saddam Hussein." This letter noted the various Gulf War-related illnesses which many returning soldiers contracted due to the presence of chemical and biological agents in Desert Storm.
"It's important to keep in mind, as you read this piece and other comments in coming days from retired former members of various branches of American and British intelligence, that people inside the bureaucracy are seldom willing to talk directly for quotation. It's a job-endangering prospect. So, as with the military, it's often retired former members of the "community" who hear from and speak for them."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veteran_Intelligence_Professionals_for_Sanity
They are also watching such issues as Martial Law and Rex 84. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84

What this war has done to the image of Christians.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743284437/truthdig-20

The war drums. The War that will usher in antichrist.

Key nations watch -

[b]The UK's Royal Air Force has launched fighter jets to intercept eight Russian military planes flying in airspace patrolled by Nato, UK officials say.[/b]

Russia plays a large role in the eschatology, that their involvement in this next war will usher in the antichrist.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6981541.stm

[b]Syria 'fires on Israel warplanes'[/b]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6981674.stm

Isa 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it [u]shall be[/u] a ruinous heap.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA

http://www.sana.org/index_eng.html

R
rookie

Brother Chris wrote:

...is opinion. Do you see how this sounds? It appears that you are implying that the United States has a presence in Middle East in order to "strip their oil" and "kill." Do you even know how much money the United States makes from Middle Eastern oil?!? Who is actually making money from it...the US or the wealthy oil producing nations? Many of these nations are unfriendly (and downright hateful) with the US -- except when it comes to selling their oil to our nation.

The U.S. reached "peak oil" status I believe, in 1974. As you have stated above we are definitely not making money on oil pumped from another nation. We are actually growing deeper in debt because we need the oil to maintain our current life style. Energy is the most critical component for securing future prosperity of any nation.

Britain understood this in her history. Oil replaced coal as the source of energy that fired the boilers of her war ships and power plants. What other reason would Britain have to colonialize the Middle East?

In Christ
Jeff

S
sermonindex


Chariot wrote:
this guy is a nut job...He said 9/11 happened b/c we had troops in Saudi Arabia?

i guess i'm a nut case also cause i can't bring myself to believe that our countries foreign policy in the middle east won't be met with some kind of retaliation, that it will not foment great antipathy. Are we to believe that the hatred of some wings of Islam happen in a vacuum?

Someone who has no understanding of Islam, who wants to be president, bothers me.

Which is why i don't understand how Bush was reelcected for a second term. Which is why i don't understand why most of the Republicans, running on a religious platform, still think the answers to Islam involve bombing them into oblivion.

some on this forum think we should ignore the elections all together

I try to understand these elections within a wider context. Eight years of Clinton a democrat, and eight years of Bush a republican have only shown me one thing - that the presidency, and especially this current admin, and the vice presidency have garnered themselves enormous amounts of executive power.
I see this two party - for lack of a better term - joke, as different sides of the same coin. Thus understading that i have the right to vote, i will instead refrain. Having said that, a Gravel/Paul ticket my get me to the polls.

What do you think about the newest choice to be paraded before this nation...Thompson?

[b]You mean Hollywood Thompson, the candidate who for went the Faux news debates to appear on the Jay Leno show. That didn't seem to rub well with Fox, the other candidates got a few licks in as well.[/b]


I guess Arsenio Hall Show would have been better. I can only speculate most of the people who criticize the present admin will vote for the President's wife that was on that show in 1993, in hopes of bringing the troops home. When the US bring the troops home and the enemy comes here and they will. Which of you are in favor of surrendering our government to the country these terrorists are working for? When or if we get such a person as President of the US the only difference that it will make in the war is, we will be fighting them in the US cities instead of where we are at the present and with a greater casuality list of women and children and civilians. Our blessed hope is in Jesus and HIM alone. He promised not only to give eternal life but life more abundantly now. No matter what happens Jesus will take care of HIS people, but somehow I can't see that abundant life now for America happening when so many people have strayed from truth that is as plain as the nose on your face and have bought into such ignorance of the facts and the truths about our history and the options of having war or not fighting. And if you aren't an American that reads this and you think it does not involve you if the US surrenders to the enemy and it is not hard to discern who the enmey is. The devil but it should be as easy to discern who the devil is working through. Let me ask this question to the none US citizens, who will come to your countries aid when the enmey takes away your civil rights and you know they will, as soon as they take ours? Talk about executive priviledge. Has America ever came to the aid of your country in any fashion? Including the greatest fashion in coming with the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have a pre-trib rapture interpretation and if this event takes place above all will be praying for a pre-trib rapture.

R
rookie

I can only speculate most of the people who criticize the present admin will vote for the President's wife that was on that show in 1993, in hopes of bringing the troops home.

No matter who is the next president, the troops are not coming home...we need the oil. Iraq for all intent and purpose is now our colonial possesion.

In Christ
Jeff

R
Rahman

i'm a Christian (Independent) who believes in voting (especially Presidential), and especially when i can get a clear indication via prayer as to whom i should vote for toward God's will being done on earth (within our own segment of world government) ... i don't really care about the economy, taxes, or to much else it seems most other voters are concerned with, i only care about which man has the lesser of the evils agenda (because i'm very concerned with not making God any angrier than He already is), and which man (since scripture says He puts them in office) God wants to use toward the furtherance of His agenda in the lives of we puny humans ... With this said, i don't really understand the how's, i only know God uses us (especially we saved) to His purposes and so i say "OK Lord, please show me how You want me to vote"? ... Some say this is a bit over the top, but to me it's all a part of "acknoledging Him in all my ways" ... i'm weird like this, i even ask Him to direct me to which car He would have me buy ... i wasn't always this way as there was a time (pre-salvation) i didn't vote at all, and always bought cars i couldn't afford ...

Anyhow ... after i got saved in 1979, and after Carter's fiasco in Iran and my becoming a member of Falwell's Moral Majority, i became very concerned about the course of America, and it's standing in the world ... So i prayed, and the answer i believe i recieved was to vote for Reagan (twice) ... The same thing happened when i voted for GWB twice, and was very verbal in my Christian Af/Am community as to why they should vote for him too ... Being of Af/Am descent, in a Af/Am church, it was a most unpolpular message, and i often still get asked if i had it to do all over again would i change my mind ... My answer, an emphatic, "NO" ... Why? ... Because i prayed, i believed what i heard in answer to do and i did it, and for me once a thing is past it becomes obvious to me it's God's will, and so my cast vote apparently was toward our now being "exactly where God wants America to be" ...

[color=FF0000]i've been praying about the upcoming Presidential election and i'm getting absolutely nothing ... [/color] It's like it doesn't even matter (perhaps it's to early, and there's a lot yet still to occur) ... It's like especially via Reagan, and present President Bush, America (and the world) is exactly where it's supposed to be, and to put it more precisely at the probability of drawing some ire, exactly where God wants us to be ... If in fact one believes that nothing happens on this planet outside of God's will, then i think it safe to say that GWB's administration, and U.S. presence in Iraq, is part of His plan to the winding down toward the end time, and the quicker bankrupting of the U.S. (and global) economy as opposed to say a more prolonged dragging out of the process by His allowing a more liberal and diplomatic Democratic tutelage with further enactments of laws pro to issues we know really aggravate God ...

Seems to me if wars, and the slaughtering of untold millions by them, was the thing that really irks God to interfering in the action of mankind the most, with our history shouldn't He would have burst the sky in second coming a long time ago ... In fact doesn't scripture show us that God Himself wars nations against nations ... i'm wondering about a lot of things lately ... Like what if before it's all over with actual war comes upon the land of Christian America, like it's done on Europe twice, with the second one having catastophic consequences on Christian Great Britain? ... i wonder if the reason for Christian burn out in Western Europe (EU), especially of Great Britain, had anything to do with a reaction of their wondering "how in the world could God allow this to happen to us"? ... i wonder if American saints would feel the same, would we feel betrayed by God? ... i wonder why it is that we have such a tendency to always reactively focus on God to get us out of our messes, but never to proactively focus on Him to keep us from getting in them in the first place? ... Why is it that when we're doing dirt we never think of Him, when the dirt comes home to roost and overtakes us we call on Him, and then get mad at Him when He doesn't fit within our own fast-food time frame of how fast He should extract us from the consequences of our dirt? .... Just some of my own quirky ponderings ...

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Rahman...

Thank you for writing this thoughtful note! I understand and appreciate the personal sacrifices that you've made for what you feel is right. My wife encountered the same thing. As an undergraduate hispanic woman, she was ridiculed by older hispanics (particularly women) for voting for President Bush. My wife simply said that he was the better choice in the direction that she wanted this nation to go. She wasn't surprised that 40% of the hispanic population supported President Bush in 2004. Hispanics are amongst the nation's most morally conservative ethnicities, and the change in voting habits over the past six elections has reflected that. However, according to the GSS (General Social Survey) the black population is also strongly conservative in areas of moral issues, religious freedoms and several other imporant voting factors. Yet Bush managed only 8-10% of the black vote (which, by the way, was a record for modern Republicans). My best friend (and the "best man" at my wedding) is Af/Am. He attends a largely multicultural congregation. His "voting" testimony is very similar to your own. He was despised by some for voting GOP in 2004. He was even labeled a "coconut" by some people from his own congregation for voting for President Bush -- even though he said that he did so after much prayer.

For this next election in 2008, I feel the same way as you. I am unsure which direction that I will cast my voice/vote. However, I will likely cast my vote (after MUCH prayer) in regards to a piece of legislation/ideas rather than for a man/party.

[b]The Iraq War[/b]

I have heard many people criticize the Bush Administration over what they perceive to know about the war in Iraq and the justification of the war. If one were to actually believe the media, they would claim that the people of the United States were "misled" in regards to this war (or the war was simply about "oil"). Further and deeper inspection reveals a completely different picture: The Congress approved of military actions using the same evidence that was presented to the President by the CIA, FBI, Pentagon, foreign intelligence services and from the mouth of Saddam Hussein himself. Those who claim that the war was "all about oil" simply are uneducated about the situation at all. How much oil does the United States receive from Iraqi oil? I urge those who would accuse this nation of taking Iraqi oil to study up on this issue using credible sources.

Much of the criticism coming from believers concerning the war in Iraq centers on the number of casualities. According to the Department of Defense, the United States has lost about 3800 men in the 4+ years since the war began (in 2003). Our coalition partners have lost about 300 men (with the majority, 170, coming from the UK). Of the US deaths, 122 of them came from self-inflicted wounds. Over one-fifth of these deaths (between 850-1050) were the result of wounds suffered from "friendly fire" coming from US or coalition troops. Roughly 600 of these deaths came from non-combat related vehicular accidents (land, sea and air).

Since the beginning of the war, the total Iraqi body count is not scientifically documented. However, the most ardent [url=http://www.iraqbodycount.org/]anti-war website[/url] estimates that between 73713-80333 civilian deaths have taken place since the beginning of the war.

Since the new democratic government in Iraq formed, 35643 soldiers, police and civilians have been killed (mostly by terrorists' bombs). As a result, the situation does appear grave in Iraq. But it is interesting to note that many thousands of Iraqi men gave their life for a cause that they felt was worth dying for. Compared with the over 58,000 Americans, 1.1 Million Vietnamese soldiers (both North and South) and 900,000 – 4 Million civilians (both North and South) killed during Vietnam, the Iraq War and its fight against terrorist insurgents has been quite tame.

The total deaths for this Iraq War (2003 - present) are as follows:

US: 3800
UK: 170
Coalition Forces: 130
Iraqi Security Forces and civilians (since new government): estimated at 35643
Iraqi Civilians (since beginning of the war, including those civilians listed above): estimated between 73264-79869
Iraqi Soldiers (before fall of Saddam): 7600-10800
Insurgents (since new government): estimated at 13126-14343

Total: 124886

The most liberal scientific totals for this statistic show that about 125,000 human beings were killed in Iraq since the war began. This is a terrible cost of human life. In the four and a half years since the war began, this represents roughly 27,500 per year. There are some anti-war groups that claim an even higher number of civilian deaths (upwards to 2 million), but given Iraq’s 25 Million pre-war population, these numbers simply are not deemed “credible” by US and even UN agencies.

However, it is interesting to note that [b]roughly 50,000 Iraqis were killed EVERY YEAR[/b] by Saddam Hussein's government since he took power. This includes 120,000 to 160,000 of groups (Kurds, Persians, etc…) that were mass executed (many by chemical WMDs), and those 400,000 civilians who simply "disappeared" because of possible political opposition to Saddam. Another 200000 Iraqis were killed following his invasion of Iran in 1980. We must remember that Saddam Hussein was a BRUTAL dictator who most Iraqis were happy to see go. Some scholars have argued that the war has actually DECREASED the amount of deaths in Iraq. Sources: [url=http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/pdf/iraq_mass_graves.pdf]USAID.gov[/url] and [url=http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm]David Scheffer[/url], the US Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues during the Clinton Administration.

[b]Our “Mission”[/b]

As believers, we realize that every life is important. Why? Because every life that ends without Christ is a tragedy. Yet for every believer that I have heard “cry out” against the present Administration or the war in Iraq, I have hardly heard anyone “cry out” about the amount of deaths that occurred BEFORE the war. The number of missionaries in Iraq is virtually confined to a relatively groups that have remained quite stagnant since the war began. Sadly, there are more missionaries in Mexico than there are in the entire Middle East. In 2001, the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Massachusetts stated that there were only 27,000 “Christian” missionaries to the entire Middle East – and only 1 in 3 of these were “evangelical.” Half of these were American, with quite a few Catholic, Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses included in the number. While the Center says that this number doubled over the past 25 years, it still represents such a small number of the approximately 1 Billion Muslims in the area. This means that there is approximately 1 evangelical missionary for every 111,000,000 Muslims.

In addition, while some believers are quick to cry out against the war, most fail to cry out about other “home grown” atrocities. For instance, [b]24,865 unborn babies are killed EVERY WEEK[/b] in the United States. While the number of abortions in the United States has decreased dramatically since the Republicans took over Congress in 1994 (and imposed restrictions on abortion), there were still [b]over 1 Million abortions in the United States last year[/b]. Since abortion became legal in 1973, there have been over 48 Million abortions. That is more deaths from US abortion than in the entire span of World War II. We are so quick to judge the Administration for fighting in Iraq that we fail to recognize its part in the fight AGAINST this slaughter of unborn children. The President has appointed two individuals to the Supreme Court who will almost certainly vote against the 1973 Roe v. Wade Court decision that claimed that abortion should be legal due to the Right of Privacy (as if “privacy” was conducive of a right to kill?).

Why am I saying all of this? We have a limited number of individuals running for President in 2008. Of these, all of the Democrats have indicated a willingness to continue the practice of abortion. Of the Republicans, a few of them have indicated a willingness to support abortion. For me, the election of 2008 will come down to several major issues:

1.\t[b]Abortion[/b]: We must end the public acceptance and legislated protection of this slaughter.
2.\t[b]Personal liberties[/b]: particularly regarding my faith
3.\t[b]Security[/b]: No more terrorism in our backyard
4.\t[b]Decency laws[/b]: Should the government promote or protect indecency with taxpayers’ dollars? Ironically, a person goes to jail for “indecent exposure” – yet it happens to children EVERY DAY in schools, internet, movies and television.
5.\t[b]Special “rights” and “minority status” for homosexuals[/b]: Should holy matrimony include forced recognition of homosexual marriage? Should an employer(including pastors) be found guilty of “discrimination” against homosexuals in regards to marriage and insurance?
6.\t[b]Fair taxation[/b]: Should my small business be taxed 40% while others get taxed 0%?
7.\t[b]Lawsuit abuse[/b]: The reason that health care costs so much in the United States is because of the insurance needed to fend off lawsuits. I’m all for “universal health care” – but it will still be extremely costly if lawsuit abuse continues.

I am also having difficulty in deciding which candidate to embrace in regards to the next Presidential election. If I cannot find an openly evangelical candidate, then I am going to vote according to the issues that I feel are most important. I will also vote in regard to the likely judicial nominees that any particular candidate would likely support. However, I am certain that I cannot personally vote for a candidate who promises to support abortion and minority status for homosexuals. People could accuse me of being brainwashed by “FauxNews” (I don’t even have cable) or talk radio – but I tend to assume that I don’t receive my information from either the far right or the far left’s Hollywood-infused media.

I will continue to pray about 2008. I believe that it is one of the most vital elections in recent history. I care about and love my family and neighbors far too much to ignore the opportunity to share my voice (my vote). But I will certainly join you in weighing this matter carefully and prayerfully before casting a vote.

:-)

R
Rahman

Hi bro Chris you wrote;
"according to the GSS (General Social Survey) the black population is also strongly conservative in areas of moral issues, religious freedoms and several other imporant voting factors. Yet Bush managed only 8-10% of the black vote (which, by the way, was a record for modern Republicans). "

--- Yep, that is until that percieved Christian "conservatism" runs up against "racism" and 'the pocket", then it's vote Democratic (no matter how left the candidate as long as "civil rights" and "domestic monetary maintenance" is assured) and to blazes with any of the so called 'fringe" issues of the so called Christian Right ... The concept of voting prayerfully out of ones Christian conscience for the greater good of the nation, even in these modern times, for the majority of Af/Am saints cause brain short-circuiting ... Even in a past opportunity of laying it all out on the line just prior to last election, and finishing it up with "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul" the majority said they just couldn't vote for a Republican ... Why? ... Because of still reacting to past wrongs ... When i followed up with how being in Christ was suppposed to free us in areas like this ... The answer, "Yeah i know we're supposed to be new creations, but some things i just can't forget ... But as i said, at this point i think it just doesn't matter - i truly believe the time for pro-action is way past - the die is already cast - our next stop: reaction ...

i don't know how many more elections God will allow us here in the U.S., but i believe all others past GWB's will be re-actionary to what has been laid down in his second term ... i believe that GWB is saved, i also believe as he that God called him to the office, and what has transpired is exactly where God wants America, and the world ... Bible prophecies are not just some make believe stories written in an ancient book of fiction called The Bible, and they've been creeping up on folks unawares ever since God started spouting them forth ---


Bro Chris you wrote;
"I am also having difficulty in deciding which candidate to embrace in regards to the next Presidential election. If I cannot find an openly evangelical candidate, then I am going to vote according to the issues that I feel are most important. I will also vote in regard to the likely judicial nominees that any particular candidate would likely support. However, I am certain that I cannot personally vote for a candidate who promises to support abortion and minority status for homosexuals. People could accuse me of being brainwashed by “FauxNews” (I don’t even have cable) or talk radio – but I tend to assume that I don’t receive my information from either the far right or the far left’s Hollywood-infused media."

--- Amen, we're on the same page here ... Folk can accuse me of whatever they want, i'm only concerened with what our Lord can accuse me of, and i'm content that it can only be that i prayed, believed what i heard to be of Him, and did accordingly ... And when i don't hear i do much of the same as you, weigh as well as i can, and vote

Somehow tho i believe between now and then, there's much yet still to occur that's gonna
upset most of the pet projects of Democrats especially, Republican too, but Christians specifically regardless of whatever is currently aiding our separation and abetting our spiritual stupor ...

i believe God's about to refocus us ALL to what's, no i should say WHO, is really most important! ---

Bro Chris you wrote;
"I will certainly join you in weighing this matter carefully and prayerfully before casting a vote." ...

--- Amen bro ... amen! ... :-D ---

G
ginnyrose

Somehow, I have the feeling that the person who occupies the White House is a mere figurehead for some other unelected power groups.. The president is a puppet who jumps when the right strings are pulled. Oh, sure they will allow him to make decisions that look as though he is in control, but in reality, I doubt it. How else could you explain the rhetoric of GWB vs his decisions? Politics? Methinks it is more then that. Can't prove it...just that the sense is there after observing the government operate for many years (I am 60 YO).

Think I will stay away from the polls come election 2008. On the other hand if you guys can fix it, I may reconsider! :-)

ginnyrose

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi ginnyrose...

Somehow, I have the feeling that the person who occupies the White House is a mere figurehead for some other unelected power groups.. The president is a puppet who jumps when the right strings are pulled. Oh, sure they will allow him to make decisions that look as though he is in control, but in reality, I doubt it. How else could you explain the rhetoric of GWB vs his decisions? Politics? Methinks it is more then that. Can't prove it...just that the sense is there after observing the government operate for many years (I am 60 YO).
I disagree with this sort of notion about the President. He is certainly not a "king" or "dictator." He doesn't even write his own speeches (none have since Lincoln). And the people that elected him do influence him in a sense that they don't let him forget WHY they elected him. In addition, the President chooses a cabinet of what he feels to be capable men and women to advise him on all matters of national interest. Often, these individuals are encouraged to sit in "groupthink" sessions in order to come up with the best possible solutions for an issue. The Bible (in Proverbs 11:14) is clear that such counsel is wise for the safety of a nation. However, his decisions are ultimately his own -- and often dictated by God (Proverbs 21:14).

There are several books that would help understand the operation and makeup of the office of the Presidency. One is entitled THE PRESIDENTIAL DIFFERENCE by Princeton Professor Fred Greenstein. Another is by Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Bob Woodward entitled BUSH AT WAR. Finally, the office of the Presidency was modeled after Federalist #69 of THE FEDERALIST PAPERS, written by Alexander Hamilton. During the founding of this nation, some feared that the office of a President might be no better than that of a tyranical king. However, Hamilton argued that the "checks and balances" of a representative democracy combined with a democratic republic would ensure that no man is given too much power.

Personally, I would urge people to vote -- regardless of whether or not we can vote for a true believer or not. If your child attends public school (and sometimes, a church school), chances are that the teacher is NOT a believer. I suppose that most parents would STILL carefully watch and interfere in the manners, methods and rules of the schools. A non-Christian teacher may still be allowed to teach the class -- but most of us would publicly reject a teacher who taught things that were contrary to our values. Similarly, many of us do not support certain industries because of our values. We withhold our money from businesses and restaurants that support questionable ideas, and support businesses that are unoffensive. Is it possible to vote for an idea or legislation ABOVE the individual? I believe that such things can be done on occassion. We can vote our opinions and beliefs into this next election. I feel that there are over 1,000,000 unborn babies who will be marked for murder that need such protection.

Of course, I am also praying about who to vote. But I feel that I clearly cannot support a candidate who publicly promises to continue supporting the slaughter of unborn children. I cannot support a candidate who promises to support legislation that will force Americans and American businesses to recognize homosexuals as a "minority" equal to racial or ethnic minorities. I cannot support a candidate who promises to protect "free speech" by allowing Hollywood companies to peddle pornographic and indecent exposure images in the public view of children. I may vote just to make certain that such a candidate does NOT win.

:-(

S
sermonindex

Somehow, I have the feeling that the person who occupies the White House is a mere figurehead for some other unelected power groups.. The president is a puppet who jumps when the right strings are pulled. Oh, sure they will allow him to make decisions that look as though he is in control, but in reality, I doubt it. How else could you explain the rhetoric of GWB vs his decisions? Politics? Methinks it is more then that. Can't prove it...just that the sense is there after observing the government operate for many years (I am 60 YO).

Think I will stay away from the polls come election 2008. On the other hand if you guys can fix it, I may reconsider! :-)

ginnyrose


You've got my vote Ginnyrose - Guess it was the "YO" that won me.

Hey, remember when they found out Peter Popoff had tranceivers in his ears?

Ah, the good old days.
:-)

S
sermonindex

ccchhhrrriiisss said,

I disagree with this sort of notion about the President. He is certainly not a "king" or "dictator." He doesn't even write his own speeches (none have since Lincoln).

ginnyrose didn't say he was a king or a dictator; she said he was a puppet...

Puppets think, speak, and do what other tell them to, thus the speech writers...

And the people that elected him do influence him in a sense that they don't let him forget WHY they elected him.

Strange that he's ignored the two-thirds of America who are opposed to the war... [url=http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/26/poll.iraq.schneider/index.html]USA Today[/url]

In addition, the President chooses a cabinet of what he feels to be capable men and women to advise him on all matters of national interest.

Rumsfeld, Rove, Gonzales, Barlett... need I go on?

Often, these individuals are encouraged to sit in "groupthink" sessions in order to come up with the best possible solutions for an issue.

GROUPTHINK (wikipedia) -

Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus [i]without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas.[/i] During Groupthink, members of the group [i]avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking.[/i] A variety of motives for this may exist such as [i]a desire to avoid being seen as foolish, or a desire to avoid embarrassing or angering other members of the group.[/i] [b]Groupthink may cause groups to make hasty, irrational decisions, where individual doubts are set aside, for fear of upsetting the group’s balance.[/b] The term is frequently used pejoratively, with hindsight.

I agree that they're "groupthinkers" all right...

The Bible (in Proverbs 11:14) is clear that such counsel is wise for the safety of a nation.

The Bible is clear that a leader requires a multitude of counsellors [i]so that he may hear various opinions, agreements, and dissents[/i] - not "yes" men with no backbone.

However, his decisions are ultimately his own -- and often dictated by God (Proverbs 21:14).

God told Bush to litter the Middle East with depleted uranium? Or to kill over one million Iraqis? Or to trash the American dollar and economy...?

Please.

I feel that there are over 1,000,000 unborn babies who will be marked for murder that need such protection... But I feel that I clearly cannot support a candidate who publicly promises to continue supporting the slaughter of unborn children. I cannot support a candidate who promises to support legislation that will force Americans and American businesses to recognize homosexuals as a "minority" equal to racial or ethnic minorities. I cannot support a candidate who promises to protect "free speech" by allowing Hollywood companies to peddle pornographic and indecent exposure images in the public view of children.

I see. Abortion's bad. Homosexuality's bad. Porn's bad. But killing a million or so arabs, looting their oil reserves, and stealing the wealth of the average taxpayer via inflation (to pay for this bogus war) aligns with your god's morality.

Whoever your god is, it sure isn't the Jesus I'm coming to know.

J
jlosinski

Ginny,

I think I agree with you as far as voting goes next year; I will not vote for any of the democratic party members, but likewise, I will neither vote for any of the most likely republican candidates either. Lesser of two evils? Not me.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Corey_H...

I see. Abortion's bad. Homosexuality's bad. Porn's bad. But killing a million or so arabs, looting their oil reserves, and stealing the wealth of the average taxpayer via inflation (to pay for this bogus war) [b]aligns with your god's morality[/b].
First of all, not even the most liberal anti-war advocates are claiming that "millions" of arabs are getting killed by US troops in Iraq. Additionally, only a person unaware of the policy and political situation in the Middle East could claim that the United States is "[i]looting their oil reserves[/i]." Such a statement amounts to baseless conspiracy theories based upon the most radical of propaganda.
Whoever your god is, it sure isn't the Jesus I'm coming to know
Corey, you don't have to agree with my post or my opinion in the matter of the war or voting. This is a Christian forum where we should be able to speak about such things without wild, judgmental insinuations like this. Please refrain from making such ridiculously ignorant remarks like this in the future. They are completely uncalled for, and you should be ashamed.

:-(

R
rookie

Brother Chris wrote:

The Bible (in Proverbs 11:14) is clear that such counsel is wise for the safety of a nation. However, his decisions are ultimately his own -- and often dictated by God (Proverbs 21:14).

Job 34

21 \t“For His eyes are on the ways of man,
\tAnd He sees all his steps.
22 \tThere is no darkness nor shadow of death
\tWhere the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 \tFor He need not further consider a man,
\tThat he should go before God in judgment.
24 \tHe breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
\tAnd sets others in their place.
25 \tTherefore He knows their works;
\tHe overthrows them in the night,
\tAnd they are crushed.
26 \tHe strikes them as wicked men
\tIn the open sight of others,
27 \tBecause they turned back from Him,
\tAnd would not consider any of His ways,
28 \tSo that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him;
\tFor He hears the cry of the afflicted.

In Scripture, judgement comes to a nation when the leaders have rejected God and are guilty of oppression...ie Egypt in Moses' generation, Israel's judgement during Daniel's generation, Babylon during Belshazzar's generation,etc...



In addition, the President chooses a cabinet of what he feels to be capable men and women to advise him on all matters of national interest. Often, these individuals are encouraged to sit in "groupthink" sessions in order to come up with the best possible solutions for an issue.

Unfortunately most of the current cabinent are not believers...

However, Hamilton argued that the "checks and balances" of a representative democracy combined with a democratic republic would ensure that no man is given too much power.

Unfortunately, money is now considered a form of free speech and is therefore protected by the courts. Money is the means by which men are selected in our representative government. Someone like Ron Paul does not have the 'money vote." Therefore he will not be president.

Just some thoughts..

In Christ
Jeff

R
rookie

In terms of the oil debate...Alan Greenspan has revealed that the U.S. is in Iraq because of oil.

I posted this in another thread...

Alan Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil

Graham Paterson
Greenspan on the 'irresponsible' Bush

AMERICA’s elder statesman of finance, Alan Greenspan, has shaken the White House by declaring that the prime motive for the war in Iraq was oil.

In his long-awaited memoir, to be published tomorrow, Greenspan, a Republican whose 18-year tenure as head of the US Federal Reserve was widely admired, will also deliver a stinging critique of President George W Bush’s economic policies.

However, it is his view on the motive for the 2003 Iraq invasion that is likely to provoke the most controversy. “I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil,” he says.


Fed veteran Greenspan lambasts George W Bush on economy


Former chairman of the Federal Reserve critical of President’s economic competence in his memoir published tomorrow

Background
Power, not oil, Mr Greenspan
Greenspan on US Presidents, the economy and Iraq
Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil
Greenspan, 81, is understood to believe that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the security of oil supplies in the Middle East.

Britain and America have always insisted the war had nothing to do with oil. Bush said the aim was to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction and end Saddam’s support for terrorism.

end of article...

Now that President Bush is a no longer a 'player' in this end game, the powers that be are beginning to set the stage for the next move in this chess game...

The truth is beginning to come out...but is this the beginning of a new propaganda campaign in an attempt to change public opinion of the war? With the price of oil now over 80 dollars a barrel, it seems, that it might now be politically expedient to tell the truth to the American people. You see we all need oil to maintain our lavish lifestyles don't we?

(the above thought is my own conjecture)
In Christ
Jeff

R
Rahman

Ginnyrose wrote;
"Somehow, I have the feeling that the person who occupies the White House is a mere figurehead for some other unelected power groups. The president is a puppet who jumps when the right strings are pulled."


---Amen ... but my point is always who's the ultimate "puppet Master" pulling ALL our strings (including the devil's)? ...

Pray for and Respect Governing Officials
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn37/prayers_officials.htm


Ginnyrose wrote;
"Think I will stay away from the polls come election 2008. On the other hand if you guys can fix it, I may reconsider!"

--- One of the enlightenments i got from The Moral Majority in the early 80's was their listings of all the legislative consequences to this nation, including abortion, and all that atheist Madylyn Murray O'Hair was able to accomplish in the ousting of God in "separation of Church and State", because Evangelical Christians stayed away from the polls ... Mind you they didn't stay away from the mad pursuit of mammon during the boom times, but voting was somehow unGodly ... That reasoning struck me like the Catholic Spanish Conquistadors not having elicit sex with Mayan women unless the women were first baptised ...

Really none of us can fix it for others, because it still is a government for and by ALL the people, and the mere fact that so many won't participate at all, or are waiting on someone else to fix the problems before they'll participate, dooms the whole process to failure at the gate ...

To me we Christians are "resistors" who don't "resist" very well :-? ---


R
Rahman

QUOTE:
"Alan Greenspan claims Iraq war was really for oil"

--- My opinion of Greenspan is he should go and crawl under a rock somewhere and shut up for the rest of his lying life ... He also claims he didn't see how his loosening of credit the way he did by cutting the interest to zip for so long would impact the U.S. economy so badly ... It's amazing to me how "they" get together in every attempt at keeping the economy going, and then when
their manure hits the fan everybody claims they didn't see it, or know what the other entities were doing, then have long drawn out committe meetings to discuss it all at more taxpayer/borrowed money, and charlatan's like Greenspan write a book about it, supposedly exposing "the others" while all the time attempting to redeem himself and gets paid big bucks for it, while still being adored by fawning nincompoops as "The Maestro" of economic policy, and the public points at "they" when all their policies are framed toward "us" who want everything for nothing, so they're just doing the job for "us" that we've elected them to and they want to keep their jobs ... whew! ...

If American's can't read between the lines of what the neo-conservative agenda is all about, and that's in attempts of keeping American hegemony in all the aspects we've become accustomed to (especially cheap oil) then we ALL deserve to wake up one day to "NO GAS" signs again, and that's only a matter of time ... i believe there were two ways we could have gone in the last two elections ... We could have went on Democratic, continued a soft diplomacy with the bad boys of the world, enacted more ultra liberal laws in the U.S. condoning all the so called "fringe" issues the so called religious right believes really tweak God , and eventually ceede our hegemony anyway in continued shows of weakness much like Carter did in his dealings with Iran ... Or we could have done exactly what has happened, with neo-cons in the White House walking up to the bad boys and militarily slapping them ... Problem is tho, as my dad always told me, "If you're gonna put someone's lights out, put em' out"! ... Our government/military is attempting to walk an impossible fine line ... Am i condoning the neo-con method/agenda/war? ... No ... Do i understand their reasonings of why we're there? ... Yes ... They know the U.S. is on the brink of "losing" it all, the EU isn't a friend, it's the public that can't seem to get it ... But my biggest point, and the one that really seems to get lost in any discussion i have about this war with Christians, as to where America is now, is where is God in ALL this, and what part as the Church/saints in America have we played in this ...

Christian's amaze me because so many of us will say God has everything under control, nothing happens without His permission, He has a Master plan toward His will being done on earth as it already is in heaven ... But in attempts to applying it to our present situation, most can't see where God is in this, or that a major cause of American demise is our Laodicean attitude as American saints ... Personally i find that perplexing, but i shouldn't because most of us take out and put God in situations as we please ... i think the American public in general has to be the dumbest people on the planet, i talk to folk everyday about what's going on and the answers they give register 11.0 on the Dumb Scale of why we're ALL in this mess ... Fingers always pointing out, never in, and when the "in" point is stressed beyond what they can bear they get a little miffed, and sad to say i find it moreso with saints in my circle ... Like the world, it's always "They, they, they" ... When really it's "We, we, we" ... We pretty much do a good job at talking God and Godly, just so long as it doesn't interfere with our life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, our fat cribs, or SUV's ... And then there are those of us who jump up and down about wars, especially this Iraq War ... Wars are part of human history and a price we pay for the fall of mankind in God's quest of obtaining what He wants ...

Bro Corey_H wrote;
"God told Bush to litter the Middle East with depleted uranium? Or to kill over one million Iraqis? Or to trash the American dollar and economy...?"

No He may not have told Him to, but then again in the Biblically historical way God deals with the nations, and some leaders, can we definitely say He didn't? ... Is God in control of everything, or just some things? ...

Some may wanna tar & feather me for my thinking here, but i lay everything at God's feet ... All the evil that's happened, and will happen, God already knew, and yet he put us here anyway ... Folk blame evil on the devil, to me yep he may be the perp, but it's God who's allowed him and it ...
It's God who's allowed every hurtfull thing that befalls us all, in quest of His obtaining what it is He wants ... "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whomsoever shall believe in Him might not perish but gain everlasting life" is not so much for us (my belief) as much as it is in continuation of His quest, what He wants and desires of/from us ...

God came to a point where He wanted to be worshipped, created angels and mankind free moral agents because He wanted that worship to be of choice and not robotical, knew aforetime that it would develope into this mess of heavenly (satan and his crew) and human history with all it's killing and bloodshed, but it was so important to Him that He slew His only begotten Son from before the setting of the foundation of the world, then choosing the OT Israel thru millenia toward the NT salvation, Romans chapters 9 & 11 with it's pre-destination of saints and the setting aside of Israel so we could be grafted in, martrdom, and all the way up to present history ... i think sometimes that perhaps one of the reasons God is so long suffering, and forgiving, is because He feels ultimate responsibility for what it's taking in human history to get where, and what, He "finally" wants ...

Everything is about "HIM", not us, and i think that's the main point modern Christianity has forgotten ... We've come to think of God as our almighty Genie who's bent on making our slightest wish His command (where we're all supposed to prosper in wealth & health and nothing bad is ever supposed to happen to us) when it's the other way around, especially when one fits into the Rom. 9's category of being "pre-destined and called" ... We're ALL God's creation, some of us His elect, and it's my estimation in His eyesight that we're ALL expendable and/or expandable in His plan of getting what He wants ... Scripture and history is full of such occurences ... If it takes millenia of manking killing one another in masse, His end justifies the means ... If it takes the deaths and sufferings of His own people, OT, NT, present day, and future, in martyrdoms, etc., - so be it - His end justifies whatever means neccessary to get to the very end of The Revelation ...

Honestly i don't understand God, and His ways at all, and am so glad via Job that he's made it plain to me i can't ... He knows if my faith, love and salvation in Him depended on my understanding Him i would'nt be a Christian, so i've come to the conclusion and have a very hard time thinking that in wars allowance, and apparent participation in of saved men, that that somehow makes them un-saved ... Our history is full of crappy things men professing Christ have done, and the status of their salvation i leave up to God, the best i can do is to first check myself, and then spout out what i believe i'm hearing of our Lord to spout out as i do here on SI ...

But here's what i do understand ... Even tho i don't understand Him and His ways, He is my Rock, my foundation, my salvation, my all in all, and i NEED Him far more than He needs me ... i cannot stay angry at Him (and i've been angry at Him in the past) because He's God ... i cannot really blame Him in the most selfish sense of the word because He's God ... i tell folk all the time that i've seen the Hubble images, and they've certainly put me in the very center of the questions He asked Job when Job was full of "why Lord"? ... i cannot "not" pray to Him, my acknowledgements of Him are automatic ... i cannot not praise Him ... i cannot not love Him, for i know He's chosen me to salvation and tho i might not understand all that's transpiring down here i know i'm not destined for hell (Thank You Jesus!) ... i cannot not fear Him ... i cannot not talk about Him ... i cannot not attempt to be a blessing to my fellow "called" ones ... and i cannot not tell others their need to be saved ...

Blessings in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, and His/our Father whose thoughts, will, and ways are so far beyond our own human capability of understanding, except the "knowing" that we're saved! ...


C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Rookie…


ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
The Bible (in Proverbs 11:14) is clear that such counsel is wise for the safety of a nation. However, his decisions are ultimately his own -- and often dictated by God (Proverbs 21:14).
rookie wrote:
Job 34
21 “For His eyes are on the ways of man,
And He sees all his steps.
22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 For He need not further consider a man,
That he should go before God in judgment.
24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,
28 So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him;
For He hears the cry of the afflicted.

Rookie cont'd:
In Scripture, judgement comes to a nation when the leaders have rejected God and are guilty of oppression...ie Egypt in Moses' generation, Israel's judgement during Daniel's generation, Babylon during Belshazzar's generation,etc...

Ironically, my wife and I studied the book of Job last night. She has always been somewhat confused by the book. We know that the “wisdom” provided by Job’s friends was despised by God (in Job 42:1-9). However, we don’t have any indication that what this particular friend, Elihu, shared (above) was wrong. Regardless, God cannot contradict himself. There is safety in the counsel of advisors (Proverbs 11:14) and God himself can ultimately direct these decisions (Proverbs 21:14).

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
In addition, the President chooses a cabinet of what he feels to be capable men and women to advise him on all matters of national interest. Often, these individuals are encouraged to sit in "groupthink" sessions in order to come up with the best possible solution[u]s[/u] for an issue.

Rookie wrote:
Unfortunately most of the current cabinent are not believers...

I do not know about the spiritual condition of the President’s cabinet. I am inclined to believe that you do not know most of these men and women either. I do know that quite a few of the thirteen members of the [url=http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cabinet.html]Bush Cabinet[/url] at least [i]claim[/i] to be Christians. However, while I would prefer believers in such a high position of leadership, I am inclined to think that Christians are not always the best choice. Many believers are often less-than-ideal candidates for such an undertaking. Some even boast of their ignorance of the inner workings of government, politics and policy (until it comes time to criticize). But who is the best person for the job? Should we hire men and women to monitor our water supply because they are believers? Or do we hire men and women who are educated in regards to Engineering? Where is the criticism for the local municipal government for their “lack of Christians?”

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
However, Hamilton argued that the "checks and balances" of a representative democracy combined with a democratic republic would ensure that no man is given too much power.

rookie wrote:
Unfortunately, money is now considered a form of free speech and is therefore protected by the courts. Money is the means by which men are selected in our representative government. Someone like Ron Paul does not have the 'money vote." Therefore he will not be president.

Money is NOT considered free speech, and has been limited by the courts for quite a while. That is why wealthy individuals can only give a limited amount of money to any one candidate. If a candidate is going to win the primary, he is going to have to advertise, travel and publicize his name and beliefs. This requires money. If a candidate doesn’t receive money, then he will not have the means necessary to secure the nomination. There is nothing inherently “evil” about this. Remember, money is not evil. It is the LOVE of money that is the root of evil. Besides, are you saying that Ron Paul doesn’t receive any money? Ron Paul is a wealthy doctor (an obstetrician and gynecologist). While his net worth is about $30 Million, his fortune is much smaller than some of the other candidates (like Mitt Romney, which is estimated at $200 Million). However, Ron Paul has raised over [url=http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/finance/candidates/ron-paul/]$3 Million[/url] for his campaign. While this is a substantial sum for a relatively unknown candidate, other candidates have earned more money. Why? Most likely, the other “major” candidates are considered more likely to win the nomination. However, I should point out that Bill Clinton, a former Governor of Arkansas, was able to secure the nomination after having raised LESS money than Ron Paul (at the same point in the campaign).

In terms of the oil debate...Alan Greenspan has revealed that the U.S. is in Iraq because of oil.
Unfortunately, you probably did not read the book upon which this article was based. Alan Greenspan has since regretted the way in which this quote was taken out of context. Since the media picked up on that one statement, Mr. Greenspan has continuously attempted to clarify his words. In an interview with PBS’ Charlie Rose, Greenspan stated that he meant to articulate that Saddam Hussein’s POWER came from oil. Had there been no oil in the Middle East, there probably wouldn’t be such wealthy and powerful supporters of terror or regional power imperialism. In a September 17th interview with the Washington Post, Greenspan clarified that the War in Iraq was “NOT motivated by oil.” He went on to say that the War and the removal of Saddam Hussein from power was both “fortunate” and “essential.”

Now that President Bush is a no longer a 'player' in this end game, the powers that be are beginning to set the stage for the next move in this chess game...

The truth is beginning to come out...but is this the beginning of a new propaganda campaign in an attempt to change public opinion of the war? With the price of oil now over 80 dollars a barrel, it seems, that it might now be politically expedient to tell the truth to the American people. You see we all need oil to maintain our lavish lifestyles don't we?

I wouldn’t say that President Bush is no longer a “player” in this game. However, I wouldn’t consider this a “game” at all. President Bush is far more intellectual and articulate than the media likes to acknowledge. He received his BA in History from Yale (a very liberal institution) with a GPA [u]higher[/u] than John Kerry’s. Bush also received his MBA from Harvard Business School (reputed to have the most selective admissions standards in the world). While his verbal communication skills are far less impressive than Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan, Bush is quite the central figure of his Administration. Contrary to the myths and propaganda espoused by the left, Cheney answers to Bush (and not the other way around). Bush is certainly not a “puppet.” Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Bob Woodward’s [i]BUSH AT WAR[/i] chronicles the methods by which Bush operates in the Presidency. While the book is quite critical of some former members of the Bush Administration (particularly Don Rumsfeld and George Tenet), it still depicts the administrative skills of President Bush in a favorable light. And also contrary to the myths that paint Bush Administration members to be “yes men,” there is often a bit of controversy and disagreement behind the closed doors in “groupthink” sessions. The President, according to Woodward, actually ENCOURAGES alternative opinions. Woodward wrote that the President wants to hear “all possible sides to an issue” before making a decision. Like you said, “groupthink” is not always a good thing. But it is always a good step when considering the actions and policies of a nation.

I appreciate your thoughts concerning these issues. They seem much better developed than the extreme “conspiracy theories” presented by some believers. When I was an undergraduate student, my MacroEconomics professor warned about a coming adjustment in the oil industry. The Oil Industry had not adjusted for inflation for a long, long time. In fact, the regular oil prices of the 1978, when adjusted for inflation, would reach between $2.75 and $3.75 a gallon. The price during Iran Hostage Crisis (late 1979 through 1980), when adjusted for inflation, would hover around the $5.50 - $6.75 mark. This doesn’t even take into account the fact that most cars averaged about 11 MPG at the time.

The biggest factor effecting oil prices is NOT the war in Iraq. Iraqi oil hasn’t been sold to the United States for well over a decade (since Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990). The single greatest contributor to this rise in oil prices is the fact that China is rapidly becoming an industrialized nation. We have enough oil in the US. However, our refining capacity operates at the pre-China levels. Once the price stabilizes, the industry can adjust the capacity according to the Supply and Demand curves. It would actually HELP the industry to have the prices fall (thereby increasing demand). Right now, the price is greatly affected by the supply of REFINED oil.

Rookie, I appreciate the fact that you have formed your opinion based upon some forms of evidence. I used to laugh at the many conspiracy theories about the war and oil. Now, I simply become annoyed. The people spreading such rumors are typically ill-informed of the situation as a whole, yet still feel the “liberty” to spread their ideas as “fact.” Even in light of truth, they often continue to spread their beliefs. One day, we will all give a very terrifying and public account for our words – including those publicized thoughts concerning the events during our lifetime. I wonder how many of us will be found guilty of [i]bearing false witness[/i] against such men (including Presidents) for the things we said or wrote? Yet we continue to express our ideas – and even question the spiritual integrity of those with whom we disagree.

In my attempts to share Christ with those around me, I am often disheartened by the typical stereotype of believers by the people of this world. They view fundamentalists as ignorant buffoons who are willing to believe anything as long as some “expert” can claim an idea as truth (by offering a bit of biased or out-of-context “evidence” and a few Scripture passages also taken out of context). Some believers even “boast” of their ignorance, but then take it upon themselves to discuss the very issues in which they are not learned. As someone once pointed out, the Church is quite deficient in proper critical thinking skills. This often results in believers who “chase after the wind” in matters of doctrine and understanding. Since God supposedly has “shown” or “led” them to the “truth” of their beliefs, they happily dismiss the integrity of anyone who disagrees with them. This is a shameful thing. As Mahatma Gandhi said, “[i] “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ[/i].” God help us to be like Christ!

:-)

S
sermonindex

Ccchhhrrriiisss, I need to ask you young brother - do you actually read your own posts?
A wise man has always said - you will be tested on everything you preach. Just at the least - read your last two paragraphs.

Why is it that you can post with such assuredness - as if what you say is totally fact - yet if any of us do that - you point to that assuredness in our posts as error, just because you disagree, Because you have "different Sources".

Did you know that Henry Kissinger is the Pope's Political adviser? How much do you know about Kissinger? That is an important political issue - just for one.

Whenever you post on Politics, you post with much more tenaciousness than you permit others to. There must be some fairness here or this subject should be taboo. Your views are very dogmatic and I see no indication whatsoever of the benefit of a doubt, that you may just be wrong, when it comes to politics.
Maybe, you see a job with the government in your future? I've known people in that position.

Do you know what is discussed at each G-8 or Bilderburg or CNP meeting? There will be a CNP meeting in Utah soon and Dick Cheney will be speaking. Are you interested in that? Because they never let out - even to the Christians 'what' they discuss. That's the group founded by Tim LaHaye that I posted the link for on "O"s thread. Do you know much about that Group - just for one?

You see, unless you know what is discussed at these closed meetings mentioned above - you really don't know it all.
To post so dogmatically is presumption bro. You rebuked me for my dogmatic Eschatological beliefs - which are much easier to talk out and prove through Scripture than, which "Political Books" you've read compared to what Political Books others have read.
I think a little more humility and flexibility with others may prevent all the hair-raising that occurs during these Political discussions.
To tell a brother "you should be ashamed" is not turning the other cheek. I saw his reference to the "Killing" going on in the Name of our God as the focal point and not the "god" that you saw in his post. I get very emotional when "Killing" is discussed so flippantly myself. Such as, "if I could I'd just go and Nuke Iraq or Iran off the map".
I should hope we all would see how these type talks are divisive and forgive one another when "Killing" causes another to feel Deeply.
You expect perfection from us Ccchhhrrriiisss ---- but perfection "turns the other cheek" - dies to taking personal insult and doesn't put Politics at the Top of their list for discussions or self-assuredness or animosity.
Christ and Him Crucified is all that matters.
I look for your posts on the other more Spiritual Topics.
Charity First - especially to the household of Faith. If you are wrong in one hair of your loyalty - you put yourself and your family at great risk. Oh not with the world - but with The Kingdom.
Stay open to the fact that you may just not know it all - as you wish others would feel.
Thank you brother.
God Bless you and your home.

S
sermonindex

Here is the Search on the CNP.
I prefer to post Searches, so that if people want to do research - I'm not pointing to which Links they should look at.
Thanks.

http://www.google.com/search?q=council+of+national+policy&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1


Addition: A warning should be posted with this in that, many of the members are of a Dominionist mind set or amillenial and many are not Christians.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hello He_Reigns...

Ccchhhrrriiisss, I need to ask you young brother - do you actually read your own posts?
A wise man has always said - you will be tested on everything you preach. Just at the least - read your last two paragraphs.
Yes, I do read (and reread) my posts. In fact, if I don't feel "safe" about what I write, I typically just save those posts in a file on my computer and never publish them. That file is quite large. As for the last two paragraphs of my post, I don't feel that I have anything to apologize for. What are you "calling out" from them?

Why is it that you can post with such assuredness - as if what you say is totally fact - yet if any of us do that - you point to that assuredness in our posts as error, just because you disagree, Because you have "different Sources".
Brother, please don't take this the wrong way. I typically try to confine my posts in such matters as a means to expose "myth," "assumption," or "opinion" that is presented as "fact." As for what you call the "assuredness" of my responses, it has nothing to do with the disagreements in matters of faith or politics. I simply find it "unwise" to claim that Alan Greenspan said that the war in Iraq was about oil -- when HE HIMSELF REFUTES such a notion! The "facts" used to say this were simply a singular phrase lifted from his book by a few members of the media. Mr. Greenspan has spent two weeks in "damage control" to refute the interpretation of his statements. Even after these two weeks, a person still feels inclined to quote Mr. Greenspan and place words in his mouth that he has repeatedly expounded upon their true meaning. It's not that I have "different sources" in such a matter. It is that I have researched the issue extensively and not based my conclusion upon a five paragraph article that was later rejected by the man himself. This is not limited to just this one claim about Mr. Greenspan. Rather, it is exemplarity of the "conspiracy theories" that are rampant amongst some believers. I suppose that it is sometimes easier to believe in a conspiracy if it reinforces our particular beliefs.

Why do these sort of allegations bother me? I suppose that part of it has to do with the educational background that I have. One of my Bachelor’s Degrees is in International Relations. My Masters Degree is in Policy and Administration, with an emphasis in Middle Eastern History, Policy and Law. My graduate thesis dealt with the Carter Administration's decisions regarding the Iran Hostage Crisis, and it is currently in the process of being published by a University press. I spent three years researching the issues in the Middle East, including conducting interviews with leading actors in the Iran Hostage situation (from President Carter and Henry Kissinger to some of the hostages themselves). I am currently finishing my doctoral dissertation in the matter. Thus, I do not have mere "surface knowledge" of the issues in the Middle East.

But my frustration in this issue is much deeper. Perhaps it is because I expect more from believers. We are supposed to be the last people on Earth who will "jump to conclusions" in matters that we are not completely familiar. Are we familiar enough to publicize our allegations against the President because we read a couple of biased books or can "google" a few names? Is our source for info the less-than-scholarly [i]Wikipedia[/i] -- or a firsthand source? Even if we do have enough credible sources to think one way or another, is it enough to publicly SLANDER the President of the United States -- and claim to know the motives and condition of his heart?!? Yet when I defend a slanderous allegation concerning the President (who isn't even here to defend himself) -- I get accused of not serving the same "god" as another believer. Such an attitude is ridiculous!

Did you know that Henry Kissinger is the Pope's Political adviser? How much do you know about Kissinger? That is an important political issue - just for one.
As I said, I have sat down and interviewed Mr. Kissinger. He was a polite individual who is quite knowledgeable with the policies of the Middle East. I don't think much about him and have never fully agreed with his views in regards to the Middle East. Yet you claim that this is “an important political issue.” Currently, he is nothing more than an advisor in matters of foreign policy.

Whenever you post on Politics, you post with much more tenaciousness than you permit others to. There must be some fairness here or this subject should be taboo. Your views are very dogmatic and I see no indication whatsoever of the benefit of a doubt, that you may just be wrong, when it comes to politics.
Maybe, you see a job with the government in your future? I've known people in that position.

Forgive me if you think that I am tenacious in my posts. However, let me be clear that I don’t mind a differing opinion. However, I feel obliged to contradict the immense amount of slanderous RUMORS that are presented as indisputable FACT. Unless a person is willing to back up their claims with evidence, then why should they feel the “liberty” to resort to this sort of character assassination in a public, Christian forum?

Do you know what is discussed at each G-8 or Bilderburg or CNP meeting? There will be a CNP meeting in Utah soon and Dick Cheney will be speaking. Are you interested in that? Because they never let out - even to the Christians 'what' they discuss. That's the group founded by Tim LaHaye that I posted the link for on "O"s thread. Do you know much about that Group - just for one?
First of all, I am aware of the Group of Eight. I know what the strengths of this group entail – and I am completely aware of the limits of this loose organization. I have never seen any evidence to back up the wild conspiracy theories about the organization. Likewise, I am familiar with the Council for National Policy (CNP). They are nothing more than another loose networking conglomeration of well known conservatives. They meet together to discuss the issues that they feel are the most important with regards to conservatives in the United States. Then they “educate” the candidates into what they feel is the direction in which the country needs to go. While they are filled with many conservative religious leaders, they are no more “powerful” than the Christian Coalition and NRA are for Republicans, or the gay organizations and Planned Parenthood (and similar organizations) are to the Democrats. They simply try to inform their party of choice what it is that they believe. They don’t let anyone behind their “closed door” meetings? So? Neither do the Elder or Deacon meetings at most local Church congregations. Conspiracy? Nah – just some people gathering to say what they think.

To post so dogmatically is presumption bro. You rebuked me for my dogmatic Eschatological beliefs - which are much easier to talk out and prove through Scripture than, which "Political Books" you've read compared to what Political Books others have read.
I think a little more humility and flexibility with others may prevent all the hair-raising that occurs during these Political discussions.
Again, if you think that I am presenting “dogmatic” opinions, then forgive me for not articulating myself more properly. However, I try to abstain from simply interfering in political threads. I only feel obliged when someone states something that is FACT that is, as you say, mere PRESUMPTION. I don’t want people to AGREE with me. I want them to research these matters for themselves and to STOP publicizing often incorrect, libelous information as if it were FACT. There is not just “one side” to a story. Most of the time, there isn’t even just “two sides.” Often, there are multiple sides to every story out there. We need to refrain from presenting only one side of the argument.

Sadly, to the casual reader, I might come across as sounding utterly “pro-Bush.” That is not the case at all! I am simply tired of unlimited examples of biased rhetoric being publicized as fact.

To tell a brother "you should be ashamed" is not turning the other cheek. I saw his reference to the "Killing" going on in the Name of our God as the focal point and not the "god" that you saw in his post. I get very emotional when "Killing" is discussed so flippantly myself. Such as, "if I could I'd just go and Nuke Iraq or Iran off the map".
I should hope we all would see how these type talks are divisive and forgive one another when "Killing" causes another to feel Deeply.
I’m sorry that you feel this way, particularly since you are doing the same right now. This brother publicly accused me twice of not serving the same “god.” Was I upset? Not about his ridiculous remark in which he SHOULD feel ashamed. I am upset that he feels so set in his beliefs that he is willing to question my salvation on the basis of his own political beliefs. Read his opinion again if you like:
I see. Abortion's bad. Homosexuality's bad. Porn's bad. But killing a million or so arabs, looting their oil reserves, and stealing the wealth of the average taxpayer via inflation (to pay for this bogus war) aligns with your god's morality.

Whoever your god is, it sure isn't the Jesus I'm coming to know.

Corey placed words in my mouth that I did not use and laid baseless accusations against the Government at the same time. Then he questioned “my god’s morality.” This goes beyond merely disagreeing with the post. It was a ridiculous remark and has no place in this forum! Why did I respond? It had nothing to do with personal injury or hurt feelings. I could care less what someone thinks of me personally. I know the God in whom I serve. I spend my life in seeking His Face and weeping before His presence. However, this sort of nonsense in regards to political conspiracies simply need to stop – especially when a believer becomes so incensed that he can openly question another believer’s relationship with God. I thought that Paul’s public reaction to Peter (in Galatians 2:11-14) sufficed as a precedent.

You expect perfection from us Ccchhhrrriiisss ---- but perfection "turns the other cheek" - dies to taking personal insult and doesn't put Politics at the Top of their list for discussions or self-assuredness or animosity.
Christ and Him Crucified is all that matters.
I look for your posts on the other more Spiritual Topics.
Brother, please do not mistake that I “expect perfection” from others. You made this statement without ever having met me or known me. If you spent time with me – just a day – you might be better equipped to make any sort of judgment in such a matter. Again, I do not take “insult” to the personal attack on myself. I would quickly turn the other cheek. But as you felt the need to offer some sort of correction toward me, I felt the same sort of need to this brother. Oddly, where was your correction when people were laying such wild political allegations and conspiracy theories in the past. Are your rebukes merely private – or do you save them for me?
Charity First - especially to the household of Faith. If you are wrong in one hair of your loyalty - you put yourself and your family at great risk. Oh not with the world - but with The Kingdom.
Stay open to the fact that you may just not know it all - as you wish others would feel
I agree that “Christ and Him Crucified is all that matters.” I have been on SermonIndex for quite a while. Ever so often, an individual conjures up a discussion in politics that I have not agreed with. However, I do not always join those discussions because they do not tend to lay allegations that are unwarranted or without merit. However, in the past year, a small group of strongly opinionated individuals have felt the need to publicize their beliefs about the President and the Administration. Instead of being careful to differentiate between what is FACT and what is SPECULATION, they lay accusations that seem to have gone unchecked. This is not a good thing. What does it say about this website and forum to the multitude of nonmembers who visit each day? What does it say to the unbelievers who happen upon this website? Should we just excuse consistent, weekly rhetoric that is meant to convert the reader? We cannot overlook the constant barrage of claims that go both unmerited and unwarranted in the name of a person’s particular social or political belief. It is much easier for me to simply walk away and ignore such things. But I feel compelled to participate -- not to spread my own belief -- but to show that not all believers buy into the "conspiracy theory" models that have invaded the Church over the last few years. I present my argument only to counter the one-sided speculation that is often presented as factual allegations. Neither the President nor his Administration is present to defend themselves. I am just trying to make it known that much of the bias that is presented just doesn't hold any factual substance.

Let me reiterate: I do not know President Bush. I feel no, as you say, “loyalty” to either him or the Republican Party. I know that President Bush claims to be a believer. I know what his public statements and justifications about the war in Iraq. He may, in fact, be a wicked man. He may even be unsaved. He may have wanted to conquer Iraq because of some personal motivation (oil, his dad’s honor, etc…). But we cannot make such a judgment. In fact, to publicly declare such a judgment is wrong. I just do not want to see that same, small group of individuals continue to place words in his mouth (and attitudes in his heart) that they CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW.

I don’t pretend to “know it all” in matters of foreign and domestic policy. It is my field of study, but I don’t plan on a “career” in this area. I actually work as a professor at a public university. I am extremely aware of the fact that we will be held accountable for every idle word – and every allegation – that we make. So, He_Reigns, I would recommend that EVERYONE listen to the words of your fine advice (including those who want to claim that the president is a puppet, an evil man, or the instigator of a war for oil):

“If you are wrong in one hair of your loyalty - you put yourself and your family at great risk. Oh not with the world - but with The Kingdom.
Stay open to the fact that you may just not know it all - as you wish others would feel.”

:-)

C
crsschk

But my frustration in this issue is much deeper. Perhaps it is because I expect more from believers. We are supposed to be the last people on Earth who will "jump to conclusions" in matters that we are not completely familiar.

In a nutshell that speaks the same volumes towards many issues discussed here in this shared forum. Actually if it were more with this well in mind that it is a [i]discussion[/i] ...

Amen brother, we are of much more noble makeup and ought to resemble it. Well said.

R
Rahman

You know we kinda all go back and forth about such matters as politics, war, etc., in discussion of all the natural data, the history of earthly cause and effect of nation doing such and such to other nations, but what i'd like to know from other saved folk is ...

[color=FF0000]- Where do you think God fits into all this? ...

- Do you think He's just sitting up there in heaven watching us bumble around as we do? ... or ... - Do you think He's still manuvering leaders (like Pharoah and Nebudchenezzar) and governments (Egypt to Rome recorded) like He did in the OT/NT, or after Christ has He just decided to let us all go at it in our own? ...

- Most saints believe that satan is always active in world events, even that he causes everything we percieve as bad to happen, but could God still be rubbing nations against nations today as He did in the OT and if so could He still be effecting nations to war? ... Or do you think that since God knows all that He's just allowing us to do what He knows we're gonna do until we run down to the end of The Revelation? ...

- He's used wars, and economic hardships, on His people Israel in the past to get their attention, do you think He's capable of doing similar to His Church here in the U.S., or do you think after Christ He's become much to much of a loving God to ever whack us like that? ...

- Do you think that maybe perhaps occasionally, from time to time, He just might stick His finger in our affairs to turn things in a direction He might want it to go? ... Or do you think our bloody history all a matter of chance, with God somehow riding His final will atop it like a surfer on a wave? ...

- Or do you believe that God has His hand in everything in such ways that we can't even begin to fathom, and often don't want to think about because it just completely goes against the grain of our picture and perception of God, and what He's capable of doing? ...[/color]

It's my experience in talking with many a saint that in terms of judging the events transpiring in our world today they'd much rather focus on GWB and the neo-cons as the cause, the conversation drops off conciderably when the devil is brought into the eqaution, and if one dares say that maybe God's Himself has intervened in orchestration of our demise because of our idolotry, the conversation stops abruptly ...

[b]Rom.9[/b]
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom. 9 is NT, and i don't care how much someone wants to convolute it into saying something less harsh what it says to me is "pre-destined" to heaven or hell ... Romans 11 says the jews we're blinded by Him so that we gentiles could get in ... That's scary to me because i don't see nowhere in scripture where those blinded get a free "you don't go to hell pass" for His blinding them ... Saints have we forgotten that God is very capable of killing folks? ... He did it in OT times and i believe He still does it today ... i listen to folk who try to explain away The Holocaust as being God's "permissive" will ... Folk can play semantics all they want but even "permissive" is under His soveriegnty, and i don't think Holocaust survivor's would be made to feel any better because it was His "permissive" will ... God created us even tho He knew we we're gonna mess up, and somehow in His thoughts and ways that are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy above mine (because i still don't understand it), He also decided even before the setting of the foundation of the world, whom He would make "vessels of mercy" and "vessels of wrath", and in light of this one can find it hard to believe He couldn't cause war if it suits His plan ...

Maybe i'm trippin', but i don't find it a stretch ... i think we have a very warped view (or maybe it's just me, so pray for me ok) of God and what He's capable of in the outlaying of His will and plan for what He wants, and it really is all about what He wants ...

PS - You know the more i dwell on Romans 9 & 11 the greater my love/fear of our Lord rises ... My love rises because i know i'm a vessel of mercy and the mere thought of that is ecstacy, but it also scares me to death to think that i could just have easily not been in that i certainly haven't merited it but it was His choice ... i haven't the slightest idea how He made His choices, but i am so thankful that i'm amongst "the called" and it's given me even more intensity in searching for others ... When people reject Christ now i'm actually scared for them in a whole nuther dimension .....


G
ginnyrose

Rahman,

I was blessed by reading the article below...you ought to check it out. The writer is Marvin Olasky. (My comments below will likely not make a whole of sense unless you read the article.)
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/13340

When there is precisous little difference in the moral character of the candidates it is almost like which devil will you vote for? We must remember these guys are just as accountable to God Almighty for their behaviours as are the guy in the street or you or me. Too many times we give them the benefit of the doubt with no supporting evidence. They promise us the moon and give us dirt. They assure us they can fix whatever is wrong and we are stupid enough to believe them. And we get a guy in who asks what "is" means!

I used to follow politics quite closely when I was a young woman, always believing the guys were honest (now don't laugh!). I observed one thing which happened alot which made me very much aware that talk is cheap, people will say [i]anything[/i] to get elected, that these guys' moral underpinnings are based on what is popular at the moment. Let me illustrate: When LBJ was president the idea was floated that the USA should resume relations with China. Now this caused an uproar, was considered very liberal. Well, would you know when Nixon assumed office, he started the process in which this was done, including a visit to the country! And so it has been.

Brother, I am weary of listening to these politicians rhetoric. I have personally met and visited with our rep in Washington. He seems to be a fine fellow. I like him. BUT he runs a mean campaign in order to get elected. So his halo is tarnished....

because it still is a government for and by ALL the people,

While this concept is usually referred to in the context of voting, I have witnessed it first hand as being more applicable by doing jury duty, having served four times in every kind of jury on the local level. I appreciate the process, think it is a good one considering you are dealing with fallen beings. Flaws? sure -if the people on them are motivated by greed, awarding outragous awards for human stupidity. But all things considered, it is a good system. Actually, in life most people make evalutions with less evidence then is presented to a jury where someone is on trial for some misbehavior. Good lesson.

Blessings (and my opinion!),

ginnyrose

S
sermonindex

But my frustration in this issue is much deeper. Perhaps it is because I expect more from believers. We are supposed to be the last people on Earth who will "jump to conclusions" in matters that we are not completely familiar.

[i]"A study by Johns Hopkins University published in the British medical journal Lancet estimated that some 655,000 Iraqis had died as a result of the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq. That was two years ago, and the death toll continues."[/i]

About accuracy. That was just one account. I also have seen the count for this year.

Brother, I felt nothing but compassion and concern for all involved in this thread or threads similar to this. But please, how can you know "how familiar" we or even I may be with Global Politics ? And by saying what's been quoted of you above, You are saying, that you ARE "completely familiar". This is my point - how can you still say that you are "completely familiar" and the rest aren't if they don't agree with what you've been taught or read?

What it ALWAYS boils down to is, one person's "Sources" compared to another's.
Brother, it is our Sources that come between us all on these type threads.

Brother - I've come no where near saying "You should be ashamed of yourself" --- you've read that in somewhere and again - here we go off into taking this into the personal affront arena.

I believe there is too much of that here.

If this were a Political Site, I would drag enough evidence about Kissinger, the CNP, the last few G-8 meetings, Skull and Bones and the New World Order straight from their own writings --- but I had read somewhere that this Site was set up for the discussing of those Authors offered here and not a place for "politics".

I found this Site looking for Classic Sermons.

If this were a Political Site, we could compare Notes until the cows come home - but what grieves the life out of me, is when brother turns against brother and offenses are taken so easily and sides begin to be drawn, as I see happening already on this thread and is being helped along by even more on this.

Politics on a Site like this is confusing enough and if the Site itself has one set Political opinion, they should let the rest of us know, so we wouldn't need the Moderator to come on to take sides or lock threads or break up these disputes.
But the fact that a Moderator has come on now, answers much.

If a Site stands for a certain form of Doctrine or Ideology, then I honor the Site's preferences and will not buck a Site's Owner. Whoever pays the bills, has every right to set the Policy of what the Site represents ideologically.

There are Christian Political Sites out there that I would never join, because I watch to see what the Owner of a Site believes first, before I sign on. I am not a debater and will not sign on to a Site that I couldn't "Amen" to.

I do that with every Site I visit. If I can't agree with the Owner, who pays for the Site - I don't sign on.

Had this remained between us - I could just share my views Biblically and it would have panned it out here to a Christian World View.

But again, it's one man's Sources against other's Sources - and you nor I should say that the other person's sources are "jumping to conclusions" until we've asked for their Source - [u]in all fairness[/u].

With The Word of God, that is a little more easily done - but when you are educated by the world and read their books and quote them as innerent - consensus will never come between 'brothers' here. It's virtually-literally Impossible!


I wish for you and your family all the very best.
___________________________________________

Amen brother, [b]we[/b] are of much more noble makeup and ought to resemble it. Well said.

[emphasis mine]

That answers it.

thank you.


R
Rahman

Sis Ginnyrose ...

Thanks for the article link ...

i have no misconceptions about the perfect political canditate, government, etc, none of us have untarnished halos, in fact i'd be surprised if any of us had them at all like those old paintings of saints ... i just wonder where saints today think God is in all this present turmoil (as i've already asked in my previous post) ... i can get a whole lotta conversation about where we think man is, how we got here, and whose responsible for the mess, in particularl finger pointing at our politicians, but draw blank stares, or complete shut-down, on the aspect of a supernatural nature ...

i saw a TV program the other day and there was a Billboard that read:

[b]"WE NEED TO TALK" ... signed "GOD" ...[/b]

... and before i could catch myself i said out loud ... "No it should read" ...

[b]"YOU NEED TO SPEAK" ... signed "Man" ...[/b]

i quickly repented of it, and told our Lord i hope i wasn't being dis-respectful, but it brought something up and out that God already knows i think, and it's not like i haven't prayed about such in a more indirect way ... i see God in everything, especially when things begin to heat up in the world - but i'm not to sure the majority of saints do ... When i wonder i ask, and SI Forum is a good place to ask, because when you can't get an answer on here i think it's pretty telling ...

i think a major problem, and perhaps the crisis of Christianity today, is a lot of us saints don't see God in much anymore ... i get the sense that it's like that 400 year lull between Malachi and Matthew where the Jews (Maccabees) were running around really feeling like they were on their own, beleaguered from all sides, fighting the best fight they could, trying to keep the faith, but no prophets ... For us it's been 2000+ years, and it seems that we're about at the end of the perspiration of our own endeavors of trying to keep the faith, the hellish prosperity movement dying in light of the present economy, a sense of beleagurement setting in for many, with many saints getting really tired of fighting the fight because they can't see where God is in all this ...

i pray He's really about speak in a way that'll grab ALL our attentions ... i think we're ALL in need of some serious refocusing ...

P
pastorfrin

Brother Rahman wrote:
“It's my experience in talking with many a saint that in terms of judging the events transpiring in our world today they'd much rather focus on GWB and the neo-cons as the cause, the conversation drops off conciderably when the devil is brought into the eqaution, and if one dares say that maybe God's Himself has intervened in orchestration of our demise because of our idolotry, the conversation stops abruptly ...”

Brother Rahman,

There is no doubt that God Himself is involved in the affairs of the world. This is why we are to be in the world but not of, participating in,
(which is a thread topic in itself) otherwise we could find ourselves fighting against God Himself, and I do not believe any of us wish to do so.

How about the Word of God? Of course the Lord is involved in the affairs of the world, and drawing nation against nation.

Isaiah 37:21-38
Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Whereas thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria: [22] This is the word which the Lord hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee. [23] Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel. [24] By thy servants hast thou reproached the Lord, and hast said, By the multitude of my chariots am I come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon; and I will cut down the tall cedars thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the height of his border, and the forest of his Carmel. [25] I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places. [26] Hast thou not heard long ago, how I have done it; and of ancient times, that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste defenced cities into ruinous heaps. [27] Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded: they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the housetops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up. [28] But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me. [29] Because thy rage against me, and thy tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest. [30] And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such as groweth of itself; and the second year that which springeth of the same: and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof. [31] And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward: [32] For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this. [33] Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there nor come before it with shields, nor cast a bank against it. [34] By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the Lord. [35] For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake. [36] Then the angel of the Lord went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
[37] So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh. [38] And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Armenia: and Esar-haddon his son reigned in his stead.

Jeremiah 49:20
Therefore hear the counsel of the Lord, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them.

Jeremiah 50:45
Therefore hear ye the counsel of the Lord, that he hath taken against Babylon; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the land of the Chaldeans: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitation desolate with them.

It is very clear that He will destroy the wicked, and it will not help one to hide behind the walls of the church, He will find those wicked who are there.

Ezekiel 9:1-11
He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. [2] And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. [3] And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; [4] And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: [6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. [7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
[8] And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? [9] Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not. [10] And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. [11] And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Of course there are many more scriptures that show who is in control, and of course it is the Lord God.

The saints are warned that they will not prevail with carnal weapons. God allows, but warns, do we listen or do it our way?

In Rev. Rev. 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev. 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev. 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


When will we learn that it is faith in Jesus Christ and obeying His teachings and example unto death if that is what we are called to, to be salt and light, witnesses to the entire world as we have been empowered to do?

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Yes, the Lord is in control but that does not mean we are to go with the nations and take sides one against the other, but to be the witnesses He has called us to be. You may be tired of hearing this but the truth is the truth:

2 Cor. 10:1-7
Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you: [2] But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. [3] For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) [5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; [6] And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. [7] Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

Maybe it is time we realized this and stopped glorifying the things of this world, if not we will soon be bound to the likes of these:

Proverbs 30:14
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

I believe we are in this generation, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ spare us from being one of them.

In His Love
pastorfrin

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

He_Reigns…

Please do not mistake this as an effort to “argue” with you toward a particular end. I really don’t care what you or anyone else believes about the President, the G-8, the CNP, or politics in general. I only jump into such discussion when people assert certain beliefs or ideas as FACTS that either [i]aren’t true[/i] or have at least [i]another side[/i] to the story. This is called fairness.

One of the cases in point regarded Alan Greenspan’s book. I’ve read this book. It had little to do with the Iraq War. Yet a few journalists wrote a story about how Greenspan claimed that “the Iraq war was really for oil.” Alan Greenspan IMMEDIATELY reiterated his message clearly so that people wouldn’t get carried away with it. I watched his interview on PBS’ [i]Charlie Rose[/i]. I read several of his interviews (in the NY Times and the Washington Post). He said what the book seemed to clearly articulate: There is a war in Iraq because Saddam Hussein’s power came from oil. Without oil, Saddam Hussein would not have much power. Greenspan went on to say that the removal of Saddam Hussein was a GOOD and NECESSARY thing. Greenspan also states in the book that two of the men that he respects most is Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld. Do you see how this didn’t come across in Rookie’s post? It has nothing to do with “sources.” It has everything to do with a clear presentation of what Greenspan really said and believes.

Brother, I felt nothing but compassion and concern for all involved in this thread or threads similar to this. But please, how can you know "how familiar" we or even I may be with Global Politics ? And by saying what's been quoted of you above, [b]You are saying, that you ARE "completely familiar".[/b] This is my point – [b]how can you still say that you are "completely familiar" and the rest aren't[/b] if they don't agree with what you've been taught or read?
Then why were you asking about how familiar I was with Henry Kissinger, the G-8 or the CNP? Are you guilty of the thing you are accusing me?

Brother, you really should reread my posts before you answer as such. You seem to jump to conclusions that I did NOT reach. Again, you MISQUOTE me by claiming that I said that [u]I[/u] am “completely familiar” with this issue. Correctly, I said that we (as believers) are “[i]supposed to be the last ones on Earth who will ‘jump to conclusions’ in matters that we are not completely familiar with[/i].” Do you see how your quotation of what I wrote was misleading??? If you desire to criticize or quote me, please do so more carefully.

What it ALWAYS boils down to is, one person's "Sources" compared to another's.
Brother, it is our Sources that come between us all on these type threads.
Sources? The difference in my posts and many of the other posts is that I am not making slanderous claims or providing a forum for the various conspiracy theories that float around some Christian circles. I simply use my “sources” to provide a counterargument to the claims that are presented as fact (and are rarely supported by sources to begin with). Even the “evidence” that you presented in this particular post concerning the death of civilians in Iraq can be questioned. While you didn’t provide a source, the quote came from an [url= http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html]article in the Washington Post[/url] less than one year ago (on October 11, 2006 – page A12). What you didn’t say is how the article states that the findings of this group of epidemiologists is “highly controversial,” and questioned by major sources in the US, UK and even the Iraqi Minister of Health. It goes on to say that there are several estimations about deaths in Iraq, all of which dispute the University’s findings. A response by the Department of Defense later refuted the study. General Casey, then the top military commander in Iraq, said that the estimate of 650,000 was simply [url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/12/MNGUTLNP6C1.DTL]not credible[/url]. He likened the estimate to the overzealousness of the media to report death, like the initial estimates of 20,000 dead at the WTC on 9/11 or the 10,000-15,000 feared dead in New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina. Both estimates were overzealous. We now know that less than 3,000 died at the WTC on 9/11 (including all of the passengers on the planes) and just over 1400 died in all of Louisiana because of Katrina. The John Hopkins’ report included estimates far higher than EVERY other scientific survey – including those conducted by anti-war groups. The report was later dismissed by groups that criticized John Hopkins’ use of “[url=http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009108]only 47 cluster points[/url]” in the survey. Some groups dismissed the results as the [url=http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/citation/314/5803/1241b]work of overzealous workers[/url] who could not have completed their work in the times that were claimed. As a result, this survey has almost become [url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1469636.ece]universally dismissed[/url].

Yet you claim that the rationale behind this argument is a result of conflicting “sources.” If I were to go back and examine the various political posts that have accumulated over the past year, I wonder how many claims have been made that did NOT contain any sources whatsoever? How many times have people “jumped to conclusions” about the President of the United States? How often have people even questioned his salvation? Accused him of fraud? Mocked his name? Claimed to know his true intentions? There are no “sources” that can give validity to such statements. Most of us have NEVER met him – let alone spent enough time to make any sort of “fruit picking” judgment. Rather, most of the allegations and slanderous remarks were made after reading or hearing something online, or from the press. And since when did the press become holy conveyors of [i]the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth[/i]? I’ve seen enough bias infused between the lines of “news reports” to realize that opinion has a habit of showing up everywhere – including major newspapers. The purpose of my “sources,” was to simply present another side to an already published allegation within the various threads.

Which sources were used when ginnyrose said that “[i]the president is a puppet who jumps when the right strings are pulled[/i].” Such a statement could be perceived as damaging to the character or office of the President – because one would be inclined to wonder who is actually “pulling the President’s ‘strings?’” But Sister Ginny was quick to clarify that this was her [u]opinion[/u]. She went on to say, “[i] Oh, sure they will allow him to make decisions that look as though he is in control, but in reality, I doubt it. How else could you explain the rhetoric of GWB vs his decisions? Politics? Methinks it is more then that. Can't prove it...just that the sense is there after observing the government operate for many years (I am 60 YO).[/i]” But what about the many opinions presented by others that are not so clarified? How many times have people levied allegations against the President of the United States which can never be properly defended? And how many times were these allegations or statements made without properly presenting the other side to the story?

There have been references in various threads that are meant to quietly belittle (i.e. “[i]FauxNews[/i],” “[i]Little Bushie and his Daddy[/i],” “[i]perhaps the REAL terrorists sit behind closed doors in Washington[/i],” etc…) and some that are meant to loudly go so far as question the President’s relationship with God.

Consider the following statements made in this thread:

Bomar wrote:
“Not that I sympathize with Islam or Osama Bin Laden, but you must at least acknowledge that the US has reaped what it has sown.

Our nation, like most all, is run by wicked men ruled by the prince of darkness.”

Bomar wrote:
“The US has been in the middle-east for decades now, stripping their oil wealth, killing people, etc.

You and I may see OBL as a terrorist, which is true...but we need to acknowledge that the US has been just as much a terrorist to them in this most recent run of things. I think you could say it started when we led a coup against Iran's elected leader Mohammad Mossadegh and installed the Shah back into power, who was a brutal dictator.

We also financed Saddam Hussein (you can see photos of Rumsfield shaking hands with him if you google search) helping him rise to the power he achieved, before he turned on the US' allies in the area.

That was 2 brutal dictators that we installed and supported in order to further our oil interests in the region.”

Chariot wrote:
“Which is why i don't understand how Bush was reelcected for a second term. Which is why i don't understand why most of the Republicans, running on a religious platform, still think the answers to Islam involve bombing them into oblivion.”

You mean Hollywood Thompson, the candidate who forwent the [b]Faux news[/b] debates to appear on the Jay Leno show. That didn't seem to rub well with Fox, the other candidates got a few licks in as well.”

Do you see any “slant” in these statements? Should such statements go unchecked? My response to Bomar was to merely question the validity of his claims. It is one thing to ask people to present what you assume to be factual. It is an entirely different thing to publicly levy a conclusion as FACT based upon such presumption. My response to Chariot to question his use of the term “[i]FauxNews[/i].”

As believers, we should be better than this. It’s not that I don’t make similar mistakes. I have posted things that I later regretted. I’ve tried to resist from even participating in some of the more controversial threads, because someone somewhere will get upset no matter what I believe. If I believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues, some people will applaud while others will condemn. If I said that I felt it was the other way around, then the situation is reversed. For some reason, many believers have this “EITHER/OR” mentality in matters of doctrine, faith or politics. There has been a precedent set over the past year where people make wild allegations in regards to politics and government. Many of these statements go unchecked, so people continue to make them. As believers, we should have a bridle on our tongues. We should be the LAST people to go around shouting such opinionated claims – especially those that are merely opinion. They remind me of the old cynical gossips in some churches who ALWAYS have something to complain about. But time and again, those gossips tend to find someone to agree with them and encourage them.

Brother - I've come no where near saying "You should be ashamed of yourself" --- you've read that in somewhere and again - here we go off into taking this into the personal affront arena.

I believe there is too much of that here.

Again, I never said that YOU should be ashamed. I said that to the brother who publicly surmised that I worship a “different god” because of my post about reasons to vote in 2008. Brother, in almost four years, I have been warned about going to Hell MANY TIMES. Why? Sincere believers have warned me about the dangers of damnation and “anti-Christ worship” associated with use of the NIV, acknowledgement of the possibility of a pre-trib rapture, acknowledgment of the possibility of a singular day of Judgment, of believing in the gift of tongues, and of voting in a Presidential election. In my emails, I’ve been accused of “leading sheep astray” by saying that I feel that it is alright to vote. Do you see the problems with this? It isn’t limited to threads on politics. There is a divisive I’M RIGHT/YOU’RE MISLED attitude throughout the Church!

If someone is going to make such a bold claim, then couldn’t they have the audacity to at least validate our claims with some semblance of unbiased evidence? If someone wants to write that “President Bush isn’t very bright,” shouldn’t they at least show why they believe such? If someone wants to write that “the Republican Party and the Bush Administration do not really want to get rid of abortion,” then shouldn’t they provide some sort of evidence to validate such a wild accusation? Yet both of these statements have been conveyed over the past year or so. When I “defended” the President (because he wasn’t here to defend himself), I was criticized for being a “brainwashed neo-con.”

If this were a Political Site, I would drag enough evidence about Kissinger, the CNP, the last few G-8 meetings, Skull and Bones and the New World Order straight from their own writings --- but I had read somewhere that this Site was set up for the discussing of those Authors offered here and not a place for "politics".

I found this Site looking for Classic Sermons.

And yet you still brought it up (again). Please don’t misinterpret this. It should NOT be wrong to talk about these sorts of things in light of our relationship with Christ and our beliefs about Bible prophecy. But we shouldn’t get bent out of shape when someone introduces a counterargument to our claims or even cherished beliefs. I know many liberal professors with whom I strongly disagree. Yet they have commended me for basing my opinions upon fact and well-thought conclusions. We are able to discuss divisive issues in a very civil manner. I might not have agreed with their conclusions, but it is at least educational to know WHAT they believe and WHY they believe as they do. As a result of such civility, some of these professors have invited me to attend with them on trips and have even introduced me to powerful government leaders. Sadly, such civility is often missing in the Church.
If this were a Political Site, we could compare Notes until the cows come home - but what grieves the life out of me, is when brother turns against brother and offenses are taken so easily and sides begin to be drawn, as I see happening already on this thread and is being helped along by even more on this.
I agree. But it also grieves me to see brothers and sisters make claims that amount to slander. The saddest part is that many of those who make such claims rarely realize it. They feel 100% justified to make their opinion known – but introduce their opinion as FACT. This is the ONLY reason that I try to provide a balance to such claims. Most of these claims seem to be made without any thought to whether or not a distinction needs to be made to separate fact from opinion or conclusion. So people continue to make bold statements about the President – without fully realizing the damage that it does. Again, as believers, we should be able to talk about anything. We could even “compare notes” about the things that you bring up (yet never fully discuss), such as the G-8, the CNP, your feeling about such “very important information” about old Henry Kissinger, etc…
Politics on a Site like this is confusing enough and if the Site itself has one set Political opinion, they should let the rest of us know, so we wouldn't need the Moderator to come on to take sides or lock threads or break up these disputes.
But the fact that a Moderator has come on now, answers much.

If a Site stands for a certain form of Doctrine or Ideology, then I honor the Site's preferences and will not buck a Site's Owner. Whoever pays the bills, has every right to set the Policy of what the Site represents ideologically.

I hope that you didn’t conclude that Mike (the Moderator, “crsschk”) “took my side” politically. I really don’t even know where Mike stands on political issues – and I have been around here for four years (which is probably a good thing)! Rather, I believe that he was merely commenting on one of the statements that I made. There is a reason that such discussions are limited. They are rarely productive in regards to the goals and mission of this ministry. We don’t attend a local fellowship for political debate amongst the brethren. Likewise, this website is meant to be a gathering place where believers (and occasional sinners) can assemble and discuss the powerful messages found here. The experience in the forums (regarding politics – and other divisive subject) has been less than ideal.
Had this remained between us - I could just share my views Biblically and it would have panned it out here to a Christian World View.

But again, it's one man's Sources against other's Sources - and you nor I should say that the other person's sources are "jumping to conclusions" until we've asked for their Source - in all fairness.

With The Word of God, that is a little more easily done - but when you are educated by the world and read their books and quote them as innerent - consensus will never come between 'brothers' here. It's virtually-literally Impossible!

I imagine that, face-to-face, we could have a very peaceful and civil discussion about such matters. Again, in regards to my participation in these discussions, I don’t believe that it comes down to sources. Our sources should only validate our beliefs (or claims). Before posting them, we should first ask ourselves WHY we want to make our claims, and then consider WHAT the outcome will be. Even if people believe that President Bush is as misguided or downright evil as some seem to suggest, is there a reasonable purpose for saying it in a public forum dedicated to seeking God? I think that if you looked closely, you would find that I never start any of these political threads (with the exception of presenting a “current events” type of article from an online newspaper). Yet I have a tendency to respond to claims, statements, allegations and conspiracy theories that go unchecked or are made without a proper presentation of “another side of the story.”

Please don’t misunderstand me, brother. I am not trying to be the Secret Service for SermonIndex or a public defender of the President. Rather, I mean to simply stand in the gap for a man which so many choose to throw rhetorical stones or unwittingly or cleverly disguise opinion as fact. I don’t mean to offend. I just hope that we all could be more careful and prayerful about the things that we write. We will all give an account.

I suppose that I will leave it at that. I don't want to get more entangled into this conversation than I already have. There are far more pressing matters at hand. Brother, you are in my thoughts and prayers. Please do not think that I am either offended or hurt by our conversation. The Lord is good.

:-)

S
sermonindex

Quote Posting Rules:

*Politics

We have found it necessary to curtail political discussion here for a variety of reasons. It is primarily out of step with the manner and thrust of Sermon Index in it's intention and we have found little good to come from an allowance of things based politically into the discussions. It is unfortunate, but the results have shown that policy and pundits of secular government are divisive enough inherently and while that is neither here nor there, it is again that which would have little to do with this sites intentions. Moreover, where we have allowed it in the past it is almost always that of the Western hemisphere and largely American politics that wish to be argued over. This is a ministry borne out of Canada and gone out into all the world, rarely has the politics of other nations been brought forth for discussion and overall very little of it has to do with spiritual attributes. For these reasons we ask you to not bring forth political matters.

It is inevitable that with an allowance of items and issues effecting us all by that which is happening in this present world that attributes of a political nature will creep in, this is understood. However, we will keep a very close eye on these things and may ask you to stop midstream or lock a posting if in our discretion we feel that it is out of place in the forum.

Conspiracy and Conspiracy Theory

We believe there is certainly a conspiracy afoot, that which is present since the fall of mankind in their enmity with God. What other websites or ministries may have of a variety of present theory as it relates to what the governments of the world are doing is too much in dispute to be presented here. The New World Order and One Government system is understood in a variety of fashion. What we will not allow is unscrupulous and un-scriptural notions and ideals to foster fear and paranoia to the saints. Our trust and yours should be placed firmly in God, not in the conspiracy of the world, the flesh or the devil. We will monitor these things in our best discretion but do not bring in ministries or other agendas devoted to these mandates.[end quote]

Ccchhhrrriiisss, I spent a few small paragraphs telling you of my confusion here over this entire discussion. How that, I was trying to understand this thread in light of these posting rules.

Either this is an open topic or it is not - thus my confusion.

If you read most of Ron Paul's speeches and addresses, you [i]may[/i] also call him a Conspiracy Theorist and since this thread concerned him - I wondered if most people have read or heard much of what he's had to say on the issues that have been brought up since.

Start from the bottom of this page and work your way up and see how he feels about the Globalists agenda and the Neo-cons and the war and the coming Police State, detention camps, etc.. http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul-arch.html

That is probably why Bomar and the others on Page One of this thread may like this man, because He wants to fully restore the Constitution, just for one thing and rid us of the UN.
I've noticed some here mention Alex Jones - and Ron Paul has been a frequent guest on that show for at least a decade. Even doing Speaking engagements together. They are close.
I've seen Prison Planet posted here - so forgive me if I feel confused about the Posting rules.

I've wondered Ccchhhrrriiiss, did you ever correct anyone from calling President Clinton - just "Clinton", while he was in office? I noticed on other threads, where you've corrected others for calling this President by his last name alone - yet all through-out history we've said "Roosevelt" - "Truman" - "Eisenhower" and so on. Why this sudden prohibition on calling Bush "Bush", just seems to bring him onto some higher ground than any of the others.

Ccchhhrrriiisss, I do believe you are a good fellow - and Corey_H may have gotten emotional while discussing a war that many of us do not agree with and because of that - could not see Jesus in this war, nor the increase in abortions, nor the lack of improvement in Morality under this Administration - and more than likely misused his words toward you.
He feels that Jesus wouldn't do what this Government has done "in God's Name" and neither do I. That wouldn't be my God neither.

I agree with GinnyRose's observation, that it's "all talk". Most especially on Morality, these last 7 or so years.

You could lump me in with those like pastorfrin on Killing and in some ways, with some of the Articles that Ron Paul has written about this war, though I can't agree with him fully on all of his points.

I'm not voting, as you saw that I agreed with GinnyRose on that. As things stand, only a Globalist can win - that's how far we've come.

You said in your second sentence - Quote - "I really don’t care what you or anyone else believes about the President, the G-8, the CNP, or politics in general."

If you didn't care, you wouldn't confront as many posters ideas as you do. And brother, I feel the same about everyone else's opinions, I really don't care - unless they are blinded to the fact that this NWO is the end of Sovereignty for this Nation and that IS what our Bibles speak about, a one world government and the U.S. is the main Source for it's development.

Whether you care or not - I'll leave just a few Kissinger Quotes, just for your making me read another long post. ;-)

Henry Kissinger quotes:
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.

Henry Kissinger quotes:
Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful. This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government.

Henry Kissinger quotes:
We must learn to distinguish morality from moralizing.

As former U.S. Secretary of State and National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger said, "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy." -- Alexander Haig.
quotes.liberty-tree.ca

Now link that with him being with the Pope as a Political Advisor and what are you seeing? I suppose it has a lot to do with the fact that Kissinger is a Fascist Socialist Globalist and well, no need to rehash who the Pope is.

No matter who you interview - unless they are truly born-again - the saying, that politicians are liars is true. Globalists most especially feel that the end justifies the means, when it comes to lying to the public.


Brother, when the majority of our leaders are Globalists and see nothing but bringing in a NWO - that for me is when we've left the realm of "Politics" and have entered The Last Days Prophetically being fulfilled. Before than, I too voted for Reagen, but just his first term.
Then hearing about Ollie North and "Rex 84" finished me off with "Politics".
That is why I showed concern for your opinions. You matter to me, because of other things that you've written about Evangelism that touched my heart.

As General Tommy Franks said, the next hit on this country will throw us into Martial Law and as Ron Paul says, a Police State. And that would mean foreign troops on our soil and the total resinding of what's left of the Constitution, plus horrors that only the Bible could help us with and have warned us of.
If that happens friend, we may have to kiss our family good-bye by Executive Orders that are ready and waiting for that event since not a few years ago.

I will leave this discussion on this Site with - let's just stay in each other's prayers - in all sincerity. Perilous times will come, sooner than some of us may think.

At the end of the day - It's not about Politics - it's about coming into the Reality of the "times" that we are living in. Ps. 2

C
crsschk

However, we will keep a very close eye on these things and may ask you to stop midstream or lock a posting if in our discretion we feel that it is out of place in the forum.

We try vey hard to be patient with all and allow time for correction and clarification. The statements above are made for those reasons. Elsewhere in this posting Greg gave similar reasons for it's continuance.

Think the door is almost shut on this one.

C
ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi He_Reigns…

You said in your second sentence - Quote - "I really don’t care what you or anyone else believes about the President, the G-8, the CNP, or politics in general."

If you didn't care, you wouldn't confront as many posters ideas as you do. And brother, I feel the same about everyone else's opinions, I really don't care - unless they are blinded to the fact that [b]this NWO is the end of Sovereignty for this Nation and that [u]IS[/u] what our Bibles speak about, a one world government and the U.S. is the main Source for it's development.[/b]

I think that you may have misunderstood the intention behind my posts. When I said that I didn’t "care" about what others believe, it didn’t mean that I’m not interested. As I’ve tried to explain, I understand many of the rumors, conspiracy theories and events happening on a national and global scale. You may very well be correct in your claim that the “[i]NOW is the end of Sovereignty for this Nation[/i]” – but you cannot say that DEFINITIVELY. It is your OPINION – a conclusion to which you have arrived after reading the material that you have read. But you know what? I can’t quite buy into it…yet. We know that there is going to be an anti-Christ who will rule the world (sort of – from what I understand from Ezekiel and Revelation, he will still be at war during that time). But it is a stretch to claim that America, as she stands right now, is the “[i]main Source for its development[/i].” This amounts to…a “conspiracy theory.” You are completely entitled to your belief, and you could even be 100% correct. However, as believers we need to be careful about distinguishing between our BELIEFS and just plain FACT. Even now, you capitalized the word “IS” in your statement as to leave no room for doubt.

A couple of years ago, there was a big stink raised in the SermonIndex forums concerning Hurricane Katrina. There were posters who truly believed that Hurricane Katrina was the result of "God’s “judgment” upon New Orleans" for its many sins – and the beginning of "God’s “judgment” upon America." They pointed to the large amount of hurricanes in 2005 – and the intensity of those storms -- as "evidence" to validate their claim. While they could have been right, some people questioned the inarguable nature of such a statement. Some even quoted websites that pointed that Katrina was the “beginning of the end.” I simply questioned why God would only choose to kill the [u]poor[/u] in New Orleans – since that is what happened. The city was flooded (about 5-8 feet). While some of the houses and businesses were annihilated (in the residential side of town), the city (particularly, the “sinful” areas) was NOT destroyed. I also questioned why God would choose to destroy a city like New Orleans, when there are far more sinful cities in the world (like Amsterdam and Pyongyang, North Korea). Some of these website "sources" even questioned whether this was the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Why did I participate in the debate? Because I don’t think that it is proper to make such wild accusations and claim that they are UNDENIABLE. Yet this is what some people did.

This is the main reason that I participate in some of the “political” debates on SermonIndex. It isn’t usually to assert my beliefs or to even discuss the rationale behind them. It isn’t even to simply refute the conspiracy theories that are being discussed. Rather, I see a need to counter the very public statements (many of which are damaging allegations or conspiracy theories) that are presented as FACT which are mere SPECULATIONS.

I think that I can honestly say that I have hidden most of my political opinions from this public forum. As a believer, I will certainly have many opinions that reflect those of others. I am against abortion. I am against indecency. I am against legislated recognition of homosexual behavior. Even if I defended the President, it wasn’t to show any sort of loyalty to the man. Rather, it was to refute or offer alternative rationale concerning the assertions that have already been made. Did you know that I thought that this nation went to war in Iraq prematurely? I thought this BEFORE the war began. I truly hoped and prayed that this country wouldn’t go to war. But I did understand the rationale behind the Administration’s decisions. My “defense” of the war was not a defense OF war. It was a defense against the accusations by well-meaning believers who claim that they knew the “real reason” that this country went to war (whether it is oil, a new world order, a father’s honor, etc…). It was as if they were Washington insiders who knew the motivations of the heart of President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Prime Minister Blair and even Karl Rove. We are certainly entitled to our beliefs. However, we should use extreme caution when presenting such theories as undeniable FACT.

No matter who you interview - unless they are truly born-again - the saying, that politicians are liars is true. Globalists most especially feel that the end justifies the means, when it comes to lying to the public.
I don’t think that such a label is confined only to unbelievers. All men are liars (Psalm 116:11). Even the best believers are prone to error. That is why believe the Lord instructed us to “test everything” (in I Thessalonians 5:21). As much as I admire men like Leonard Ravenhill, David Wilkerson, or even my own Pastor – they are still flawed human beings. While they might not mean deceit – it is still a part of our flawed humanity.
Brother, when [b]the majority of our leaders are Globalists and see nothing but bringing in a NOW[/b] - that for me is when we've left the realm of "Politics" and have entered The Last Days Prophetically being fulfilled. Before than, I too voted for Reagen, but just his first term.
Then hearing about Ollie North and "Rex 84" finished me off with "Politics".
That is why I showed concern for your opinions. You matter to me, because of other things that you've written about Evangelism that touched my heart.

As General Tommy Franks said, the next hit on this country will throw us into Martial Law and as Ron Paul says, a Police State. And that would mean foreign troops on our soil and the total resinding of what's left of the Constitution, plus horrors that only the Bible could help us with and have warned us of.
If that happens friend, we may have to kiss our family good-bye by Executive Orders that are ready and waiting for that event since not a few years ago.

I will leave this discussion on this Site with - let's just stay in each other's prayers - in all sincerity. Perilous times will come, sooner than some of us may think.

You may very well be correct. But what if you are not completely and utterly correct? What if a majority of our leaders are NOT desiring to bring out a “New World Order?” What then becomes the status of such statements? It is good and fine to “warn” believers about such a possibility. But is it wise to present your assertion as an indisputable fact (with no room for error)?

Brother, I do believe that you are a good and sincere believer. In fact, I would enjoy meeting with you and even discussing such things. I feel that we are often more inclined to use more careful rhetoric when making an assertion in private. Sometimes, our words upon paper (and in this case, the screen) can be quite deceptive in expressing what we truly feel. Alas, I am not accomplished in expressing my own beliefs or reading “between the lines” to arrive at the true essence of communication.

:-)

T
Tears_of_joy

Chris, are you politician, are you studying politics profesionally as part of your job? I have read in other thread that you are doing PhD, is that in the field of politics?

G
ginnyrose

Rahman wrote:

is a lot of us saints don't see God in much anymore ... i get the sense that it's like that 400 year lull between Malachi and Matthew where the Jews (Maccabees) were running around really feeling like they were on their own, beleaguered from all sides, fighting the best fight they could, trying to keep the faith, but no prophets ...

Very people will disagree with this lament...

Now may I encourage you to do something? Google, if you will, Muslims visions Christ and see what you come up with. I promise you it will encourage you. God is still working supernaturally to bring people to Himself. The other day I saw a video online - not sure where I stumbled on it - of a Muslim who went to Mecca hoping to find a solution to his alcoholism. While there the LORD Jesus appeared to him and told him to leave. This type of communication went on for some time. He started witnessing for Him to his co-workers. This went on for two years in which he never met another Christian or had a Bible. He eventually got a Bible by listening to a radio broadcast, if I recall correctly. Rahman, this is awesome: makes the chill bumps go up and down my spine!

In being challenged by these stories, I have concluded if I experience a lack of closeness with God, it is my fault. (Am not talking about anyone else.) God is there waiting for me, all I have to do is make the first move. When I experience a lack and tell him about it, being desperate, He will fulfill it. Yes, God is so gracious, more then I ever will be! The problem with Americans is we are too comfortable, too satisfied. We have too much time to pursue our own pleasures. And God gets the short end of the stick.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

C
crsschk

I recant that earlier statement. Wonderful how these things can turn around.

Now may I encourage you to do something? Google, if you will, Muslims visions Christ and see what you come up with. I promise you it will encourage you. God is still working supernaturally to bring people to Himself.

Have been hearing about this for quite some time in a variety of places. Took up your challenege there sister, perhaps fodder for another post, there are some remarkable stories out there.

R
Rahman

pastorfrin you wrote;
"The saints are warned that they will not prevail with carnal weapons. God allows, but warns, do we listen or do it our way?"


--- From our Christian history apparently we do it "both" ways, not even in attempt, we actually do it, and like we can both agree on, "God allows"...

CHRISTIANITY: Abused for Power, Personal Purpose & Prosperity ...
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14398&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go


But within His allowance, i wonder how much He still orchestrates, as in the many scriptures you posted of His being in Almighty control ... If He rubbed nations against nations in the OT to further His plan/will, can He, and in fact is He still doing the same in our modern times ... Somehow saints can see Him causing nations to war against nations in the OT, but not in the NT ... Why? ... i think because we see Him as changing His mudus-operendi once in the NT and now we pretty much see Him as "Jesus Meek and Mild" ... But scripture also says He's the same yesterday, today and forever ...

i think some saints/pastors like yourself believe that ALL saints should be as seperate from every thing outside of Christianity as the scriptures you've posted, i was raised JW and they're like that, (Not saying you're like them) But they're always complaining and pointing fingers that the world is going to hell in a hand basket but never excercising any of their country given rights towards stemming some of the rot politically by something as simple as a vote, and they don't fight in wars, and then there are other pastors/saints who believe that we should render God's things to God, and Caesar's things to Ceasar, and pay our taxes, pray for and respect our governmental authority figures as "servants" of God for our peace, obey the laws, some even see the value in the vote, and some even in support of military service to the nation ...

Something that strikes me is "prophecy" is full of the predictions of wars, and realistically somebody's got to fight them, and i find it amazing how many of them are fought even between nations all claiming Christianity ... If in fact all of the people/nations since Christianity came to the Gentiles who've both started and fought in wars, and did all kinds of horrible atrocities to others while claiming the name of Christ, are in fact not saved, then that's a whole heap of misguided folk on their way to "the lake of fire", and perhaps that might explain why it's taking so long for the heavenly number to be filled ... i say the latter "tongue in cheek" ... Pastor you may be 100% right, fine, but that's not the way it's been and is, we saints are all over the place as to what we believe we can do, as well as how we believe God may be playing a role in our present occurences ... So as i've said before, whose right, whose wrong, i've come to the conclusion to leave that all up to God as to whether what we do or don't do affects our salvation ... All i know is i believe all of us that come to Him are Rom. 9 ( predestined and called, without any merit of our own, and somehow i think that grace gives a much wider leeway in our actions than many of us may be comfortable with when we look at one another now, and in the past), as i also believe that God's responsible for more things happening in our world today than we could ever get our little minds around ... So again i have no trouble in thinking that it's quite possible, and in my mind probable, that Pres. Bush is in office at God's own strategic timing, that we're in this war because He wants us in it (by His permissive will if it makes anyone less horrified at my thinking), if not we wouldn't be, and like all the other wars it somehow fits into His winding down to The Revelation's end, therefore not making it the FAULT of Pres. Bush and the neo-cons if the strings of the world are pulled by the super-natural satanic or God direct ... And i don't believe that any Christian who's also a soldier in the American military fighting in Iraq is unsaved just because of that ... Wasn't Paul's admonition to slaves and soldiers at the time of their salvation to not try to escape their bonds as new converts, but to be the best Christian slave and/or soldier they could be? ... If a soldier who's a Christian has an attack of conscience about being in Iraq, he/she could always face whatever the consequences to get out ---


Pastorfrin you wrote;
"Yes, the Lord is in control but that does not mean we are to go with the nations and take sides one against the other, but to be the witnesses He has called us to be. You may be tired of hearing this but the truth is the truth:"


--- Pastor i am a firm believer in "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" ... So i hope and pray that all you do and believe, as with myself, is out of such faith ... i often say, "God may eventually prove me wrong about something i believe, but my sin won't be because i hadn't believed it" ... So no i don't get tired of hearing what you say, but am actually joyful in seeing/hearing the persistence and intensity of your faith ... Again, what i want to see is our fences coming down, not built up ... In fact i feel that i don't really have any fence of my own around me, but am kinda contained whithin all the fences others have up around them ... SI Forum has taught me much about my own personal faith, and how to seperate my "self" from it when others don't see eye to eye with me, or brand me outright heretical in some of my beliefs ... The only time i want to build a fence or retaliate is when i take something personally, and sometimes i do, but as soon as that twinge hits me i recognize it for what it is and begin asking Holy Spirit to well up inside me to drive "self" out so that i can stay on His keel of "love" for each other ... Pastor i grow in each and every dialogue i encounter here on SI ... So don't stop what you believe you're hearing from our Lord, unless He tells you to ... Amen ---


Pastor you wrote;
Proverbs 30:14
"There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

I believe we are in this generation, may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ spare us from being one of them."


--- i can see your point here, but in my reading of history we ain't the first, tho technological wise ours is the generation doing it to the max ...

Blessings in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ---

R
Rahman

Bro crsschk wrote;
"Think the door is almost shut on this one."

Then you wrote;
"I recant that earlier statement. Wonderful how these things can turn around."


--- Didn't quite follow what happened to make you recant, but i'm glad ... i've found this thread to be lively, but not nasty, and am glad to have the opportunity to dialogue with other saints about such matters of today ... Lord knows, as opposed to those in my everyday circle, here i can post back and forth with saints who have opinions that they will state, i always like to get bro's Jeff & Chris take on things, and most recently Pastorfrins ...

i watch all that's going on in our world today, and i remember that Ephesians says our battle is not flesh and blood, but i'm often amazed at mostly when i talk to saints the "blame" for things seem to have gotten caught down here in the natural ... i've been on a mission lately in asking every saint i encounter
"Where do you see God in all that's happening in America"? ... Very intersting the reactions of mostly perplexity, and blank stares ... Or as one sister summed it up ... "I don't know where God is in all of this, but I know He ain't in President Bush" ---


R
Rahman

Sis Ginnyrose you wrote;
"Now may I encourage you to do something? Google, if you will, Muslims visions Christ and see what you come up with. I promise you it will encourage you. God is still working supernaturally to bring people to Himself. "

--- Amen ... will do! :-) ...

But i have to tell you sis, my burden (i believe God bestowed) is for the American saints/Church ... i'm beginning to witness far to many befuddled saints in my circle and it's having a lot to do with economics, things are beginning to really break down in the (lower, middle, & lower upper) middle class, very few testimonies anymore about what God's doing in the meeting of needs or abundance of material blessings (mind you a lot of them self contrived), but increase in weeping and crying about what can't be afforded anymore, and what's being lost ... Increased begging from the pulpits, ever more $$$ raising gimmicks from pastors who are aware that they need to get their big church mortgages paid off, a real sense of despair and anger often (tho i'm glad to see it) that all that seed for personal greed seed they've planted isn't yeilding what was promised ... Many of their modern so-called faith heros are falling (being exposed by our Lord actually) like flies in all kinds of carnal failures, and i know this is only the tip of the iceberg ...

Bless God for all the great works He's doing elsewhere, but my plea is for America, and the mother of all REVIVAL's here, because we sorely need it ... Especially here we ALL need to be refocused on HIM
and His sufficient grace! ---


R
rookie

I am sorry I am way behind in this thread...

Brother Rahman wrote:

--- My opinion of Greenspan is he should go and crawl under a rock somewhere and shut up for the rest of his lying life ... He also claims he didn't see how his loosening of credit the way he did by cutting the interest to zip for so long would impact the U.S. economy so badly ... It's amazing to me how "they" get together in every attempt at keeping the economy going, and then when
their manure hits the fan everybody claims they didn't see it, or know what the other entities were doing, then have long drawn out committe meetings to discuss it all at more taxpayer/borrowed money, and charlatan's like Greenspan write a book about it, supposedly exposing "the others" while all the time attempting to redeem himself and gets paid big bucks for it, while still being adored by fawning nincompoops as "The Maestro" of economic policy, and the public points at "they" when all their policies are framed toward "us" who want everything for nothing, so they're just doing the job for "us" that we've elected them to and they want to keep their jobs ... whew! ...

It may be that Greenspan is connected to Babylon and that everything that is easily seen, is not reality...

Just a thought bro...

In Christ
Jeff

R
Rahman

Bro Jeff you wrote;
"It may be that Greenspan is connected to Babylon and that everything that is easily seen, is not reality...

Just a thought bro..."


--- Bro i thought with the likes of us "both" are a foregone conclusion ... :-P ...

Would be funny if the consequences weren't so serious ... :-(

Blessings in Jesus! ---

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