Capital Punishment & War

sermonindex Sep 6, 2007

The topic of war and capital punishment has come up lately on campus and I thought I would share my quick thoughts on it.

We must make a proper distinction between ~~[u]~~~~[b]~~individual relations[/b][/u] and ~~[u]~~~~[b]~~governmental relations[/b][/u]. This is vital to a proper understanding of the issue. Failure to make a distinction between individual relations and governmental relations would result in total anarchy and chaos.

~~[u]~~~~[b]~~Individual relations:[/b][/u]

Mt 5:39 - But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mt 6:14-15 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

~~[u]~~~~[b]~~Governmental Relations:[/b][/u]

Romans 13:1-6 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves d**nation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. ~~[u]~~~~[b]~~But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil[/b][/u]. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

As individuals, we must overcome all vindictiveness, bitterness, hatred, revenge, etc.

But the government has a God ordained ministry to execute the wrath of the sword upon evildoers. The government is responsible for the protection of the community and so it passes good laws. And it is responsible for upholding those good laws. The purpose of punishment is to declare the value of those laws; thus the punishment must fit the crime. The punishment of law breakers is to uphold the laws that they broke. And those laws serve the purpose of protecting the community.

So on an individual level, we absolutely must forgive everyone. We will not be forgiven by God if we ourselves do not forgive others.

But the government has a God ordained ministry to protect the community, which includes passing laws and then upholding laws through punishment.

And so protecting the community requires sending criminals to prison as well as capital punishment for more serious offenses. A serious offense requires a serious punishment as a public declaration of the value of the law that was violated.

And since the government has the God ordained ministry of protecting the community and executing the sword, that includes going to war when absolutely necessary for the public good.

The community would not be save if the government did not pass laws and uphold laws through punishment; and the community would not be save if the government did not protect the community through war from foreign threats.

sermonindex Sep 6, 2007

This is very well thought out, and I believe you have the proper balance here. Very good.

The only thing I would like to mention is that some will confuse self defense with ~~[i]~~"As individuals, we must overcome all vindictiveness, bitterness, hatred, revenge, etc."[/i] God never forbids self defense, or the protection of ones family. In fact, it is very much allowed in the OT Law, and never revoked in the NT.

Krispy

PreachParsly Sep 6, 2007

If our relational responsibility as individuals are at odds with the governments' relational responsibility, can a Christian be involved in the Government?

iansmith Sep 6, 2007

But what do you think about wars fought in the name of justice or vengence that prevent Christians from their primary duty of preaching the Gospel?

hmmhmm Sep 6, 2007

can a Christian be involved in the Government?

of course, through the entire bible there are men in " government ". It may have been a different sort back then, but many of the people God selected to be his man for the hour was in what we would consider in a government. Take Nehemiah, he was the kings cup bearer.

and there are many many more. So i think we can be say yes

PreachParsly Sep 6, 2007

of course, through the entire bible there are men in " government ". It may have been a different sort back then, but many of the people God selected to be his man for the hour was in what we would consider in a government. Take Nehemiah, he was the kings cup bearer.
and there are many many more. So i think we can be say yes

I'll throw out a few more questions. Could you resist evil "at your job" and then not resist it when you are off work? In other words, how could one resist evil when being recognized as a government offical and when recongized as a Christian not resist it? Can we be "secular" while at work and "religious" while not?

Also, is there any difference between "the kingdom" in the OT and in the NT or are they the same? In other words, was Israel a "worldly" kingdom and the kingdom that Christians are now apart of "not of this world?"

Not being dogmatic, just asking questions. :-D

myfirstLove Sep 6, 2007

Also, is there any difference between "the kingdom" in the OT and in the NT or are they the same? In other words, was Israel a "worldly" kingdom and the kingdom that Christians are now apart of "not of this world?"

Yes, in New Tesatament we (Christians) are told to arm ourselves IN Christ, not guns. The weapons we use are not carnal like old testament, but spiritual weapons that pulls down demonic powers and exposes the darkness. We do not get involved in government. We are told to live at peace with them and obey their God given authority unless any of their laws causes us to stumble with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

Colossians 2:8
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

We are told to love our enemies, bless them when we are persecuted.....God is the one who takes vengeance for us. Unlike the old testament who were told to stoned them and kill their enemies. We new teastament people are told to love and pray for them, not kill them. That is God's job, not ours.

It does seem that many Christians are living like the old testament. Building the church like the old and wanting a king like the old and fighting battles like the old.

Just like Jesse said, God uses Government to deal with evil. He also uses government, wars...to humble and purify His saints. if you look in the old testament God would raise up an army agaist Isreal when they rebel. In New Tastament Paul and Peter saw every trial wether physical or spiritual coming from the Lord to humble and purify them, to cause them to depend on Him and not man.

God is not concern about evil men. He does use them to get His will accomplish. His concern is for the saints, to prune and bear much fruit giving Him glory. Such trials are brought upon us to seperate the wheat from the tares and make us genuine in Him. Read revelations.

2 Corinthians 1:9-10
9 Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead, 10 who delivered us from so great a death, and does deliver us; in whom we trust that He will still deliver us,

1 Peter 4:12-13

12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.

God uses satan to purge and purify saints, becoming more genuine in Him!

So let us not freak out about all the evil that is brought upon us. They are their to test and purge us. And know God's vengeance will come and has come upon evil men! Be patience and do not be weary in doing good. The word tells us to overcome evil with good that our light may shine among the dark.

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

P.S.

I hope this make sense. Like I have said before I am not a gifted teacher so have patience with me.

HomeFree89 Sep 6, 2007

hmmhmm wrote:

can a Christian be involved in the Government?
of course, through the entire bible there are men in " government ". It may have been a different sort back then, but many of the people God selected to be his man for the hour was in what we would consider in a government. Take Nehemiah, he was the kings cup bearer.
and there are many many more. So i think we can be say yes

The difference however between the "politicians" of the Bible and the modern politicians is that people like Daniel didn't go looking to get into places of power. He was set there by God, how many people in modern politics could say they were told by God to be there?

And how many modern politicians could say they have 100% stayed away from compromise?

Jordan

sermonindex Sep 6, 2007

If our relational responsibility as individuals are at odds with the governments' relational responsibility, can a Christian be involved in the Government?

That is a great question Josh.

As loving Christians, we of all people should support the government which is responsible for the welfare and well-being of the community. As Christians we are not lovers of anarchy and chaos, but lovers of peace and order.

~~[b]~~The government is a God ordained ministry, and as Romans 13 says, to resist the government is to resist God Himself![/b] But we are in favor of God and therefore in favor of everything that God is in favor of!

That does not men that all the laws that a government passes are good (abortion, homosexual marriage) But rather, that we must uphold and support all the good laws that the government passes. (don't rob and steal, don't murder, don't sell drugs, etc)

I believe that the more Christians we have in government the better. None but the godly are ultimate fit to make proper judgments when it comes to passing laws and prison sentences, etc.

But the point is that the execution of punishment is not personal but governmental. For example Josh, suppose someone robs your house. They get caught and face a judge. They do not face the judge as someone who has sinned against Josh. Rather, they face the judge as someone who has violated the governmental law. The prosecution is governmental and not personal.

And so when that person goes to prison, it is not out of personal vindictiveness or as personal revenge, but it is solely governmental. They are put in prison because they cannot be trusted in the community, not because they have individually sinned against one individual.

So we as Christians must support good government, good judges, good laws, etc. But our support is not out of personal delight in punishment or out of personal vindictiveness. But out of love for peace and order, out of love for the community.

(This could also help us to understand how even God's wrath is governmental, being a governmental necessity and not merely a personal vindictiveness or a personal unwillingness to forgive on the part of God.)

Wow, a thought just came to mind.
Was it illegal to be a heretic in Calvin's day? If so, you just justified his actions did you not?

I think that this applies to that situation:

"That does not men that all the laws that a government passes are good (abortion, homosexual marriage) But rather, that we must uphold and support all the good laws that the government passes. (don't rob and steal, don't murder, don't sell drugs, etc)"

So we are suppose to support good laws and are suppose to be against bad laws. A good law is that which protects the community, a bad law is that which is harmful to the community.

Josh said: Well, this is my delima. If we use the Bible to dictate what are good laws vs bad, the Bible says that we must love our enemies. Would any law that violates that be "bad?" This would involve all wars, right?

Again, we must distinguish between the personal and the governmental. We are to personally love our enemies. But personal love for enemies does not exclude the necessity of government.

But do you want your enemies to live in a society where it's ok for others to steal from them, rape them, and murder them? Does not love for everyone require personal support of government?

If we love everyone, we wouldn't want anyone to live in a lawless society where anarchy and chaos reigns, where crimes against humanity can be committed without punishment.

When we establish laws like don't steal, rape, and murder, we are subjecting EVERYONE to these laws, including ourselves, and not just our enemies. Everyone is subjected to the law, including judges and police officers, including those who issued the law.

But if we love our enemies, we wouldn't want them to live in a society that had no government, where people could steal from them, rape them, and murder them without any fear of punishment.

Compton Sep 6, 2007

Hi y'all

Yes, in New Tesatament we (Christians) are told to arm ourselves IN Christ, not guns....We do not get involved in government. We are told to live at peace with them and obey their God given authority unless any of their laws causes us to stumble with the Lord.

I noticed this statement carefully sandwiched one self-expressed idea between two scriptural"we are told's". I appreciate the sensitivity shown there. The bottom line is that we are not told to stay out of government--- an ambiguity that might provide some discomfort for those who want to establish a hard fixed wall of seperation between the Christian and government.

The conviction to abstain from civil and military service is quite understandable based on the themes of heavenly citizenship and spiritual seperation from the world presented so emphatically in the New Testament. However, being zealous to obey the spirit of the law we often add to the letter.

We are alot like Forrest Gump in that scene where he was playing college football. Once he figured which direction to run, he just kept on running long after he reached the end zone. Likewise, we figure which direction we are suppose to run doctrinally, but long after we have reached the goal set for us, in our zeal we continue running right out of the stadium.

Many confidently talk of a spiritual Bablyon today, but unwittingly convert this concept into a physical Bablylon as well. Once we come to understand that anytime we are working in the flesh we are building Babylon, we then add legal boundaries to this theme by declaring certain structures (Government, Church buildings) are Babylon and certain structures (home churches, this forum) are Jerusalem. I believe in doing so we have confused and mixed the biblical themes of spiritual Babylon with mere physical form. As with all legalism, this opens the door to superficial judgement of others by those who are failing themselves to actually live according to the Spirit.

Unlike Forrest Gump, we cannot keep running right out of the stadiums of this world with some gnostic or spiritualist concept of no participation in earthly government. Niether our Lord or the Apostles issued this prohibition. Rather their doctrines were given for conformity to Christ's character, not mere legal conformity. If we reach this end zone of Godliness in our obedience, characters and conduct, any further exertion beyond adds no additional points on the scoreboard of God's judgement of us.

Of course it would be easier to simply state that none of us can ever be involved in earthly government or serve in the miliatry. Certainly most of the teachings of the New Testament seem harder if not impossible for those in public and military service. However, this incongruity between Godliness and the seedier aspects of public service, is not the same as a de facto prohibition, just as ambiguity is not a license or endorsement.

Now I want to add here that I personally don't even see how I can vote with a clear conscience for any of the current presidential candidates. Having said that, I must be careful not to place my own disqualifiers on our brethren who do vote or serve; disqualifiers that the Lord never set in place. Imagine how long slavery might have continued in England had not William Wilberforce demonstrated that he could leave Babylon while still in public service. And there is Pauls' small but warm mention of Erastus the city's director of public works," in Romans 16:23, who apparently was in the Church.

Just some thoughts,

pastorfrin Sep 6, 2007

Nonresistance and Nonparticipation in Civil Government
by Paul Horst
Tract 21E74
published by Rod and Staff Publishers, Inc. Crockett, KY 41413

On this subject we have many Scriptures. "Resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also . . ." "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you . . ." (Matthew 5:38-48). "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, saith the Lord" (Romans 12:19).

Also, in Ephesians 6:12 and 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 we are plainly told that our warfare is spiritual, not physical, and the weapons, although they are powerful and effective, are not of this world (carnal).

Finally, in Hebrews 11:13-16 we clearly see that the child of God has a heavenly country and therefore a heavenly citizenship which demands his first allegiance. Any nation on earth in which he dwells must realize that he is there as an alien, and that, although he will endeavor to be subject to their will where possible, he cannot be expected to participate in their affairs nor compromise his heavenly citizenship.

As we consider these truths and others, such as the Beatitudes, we come to see that nonresistance is not just a matter of what we will do or not do in certain situations, but rather a very spirit of meekness, humility, and love which possesses the Christian when he is truly born again. The spirit of resentment, revenge, and retaliation is crucified with self, and the new spirit becomes our way of life.

Not Nonviolence or Passive Resistance

This is not nonviolence or passive resistance, which, though not involving physical force, does yet manifest the spirit of resistance and demanding of our rights. Guy F. Hershberger, a Mennonite leader, has stated: "The [black's] leader, Martin Luther King, has successfully trained thousands in something which we have professed to believe for four hundred years - the way of nonviolence." This is clearly false, for the way of nonviolence includes many things foreign to the way of nonresistance, such as lobbying to influence legislation, demanding of our rights and privileges, refusal to obey the law even when obedience does not involve one in wrongdoing. Of course we can have no part in suppression or inequalities, but nonviolence is not the answer, nor is this what we have professed to believe for four hundred years, but rather we believe that which Jesus and the early church professed - nonresistance.

Not Only Abstinence From Vengeance

Neither is it only abstinence from personal vengeance, for the Old Testament already forbade this and made provision for orderly judgment and punishment (Deuteronomy 19). Therefore, we believe that Jesus intended that all vengeance is forbidden to the Christian. How could He have made it more clear? God says (1 Peter 2:21-24) that Jesus is our example and that He, when reviled, reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not, but committed Himself to God. Shall we, then who profess to follow Him, lift our hands or weapons to defend our lands, houses, families, or our own bodies? Shall we not rather leave all vengeance to God and those whom He shall use to execute His wrath? (See Romans 13).

Not An Endeavor to Bring About World Peace

The Bible leaves us no hope that men shall ever be able to bring about world peace through disarmament, political lobbying, and so forth, owing to the very nature of the world and the heart of man. Therefore, nonresistance is no futile attempt or fanciful dream to that end.

Neither is it an effort to "bury our heads" to the evil around us, but rather the result of a firm conviction that evil must be met by spiritual resistance; and must be overcome with good (Romans 12:21). It is true that God used His people in the past, as a nation, to punish sin; and provides for such punishment today through earthly government; and will in the future bring condemnation upon all the ungodly. Yet the people of God in this age are given the ministry of reconciliation rather than the ministry of retribution. "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour" (Romans 13:10).

That this spirit must fill all of life, we see in 1 Peter 3:8, 9, for here it is applied to the home and our closest relationships. Here it is that we are apt to be the most careless in exercising those virtues which rise out of love. Here, too, we see how to apply it to all situations, for if it is good for the home, as all agree, then it is good for neighbors, friends, strangers, and enemies.

Not Opposed to Government

Let it be said, however, that while we cannot participate in earthly governments, we are not opposed to them, but rather accept them as a necessary part of an evil, unregenerate society. We lend them our support in every Scriptural way (by prayer, financial support, and obedience wherever possible without conflict with the Word of God).

Some have supposed that the early church and the Anabaptists opposed participation in the government because of the nature of the governments under which they lived, but we have no reason to think they would have acted differently under any other form of government. The reasons which they gave and the Scriptures set forth in support of nonparticipation apply equally to dictatorships, kingdoms, and democracies. This is true in time of peace as well as during persecution. Jesus refused to be made king or judge (John 6:15; Luke 12:13, 14). Also, we notice that the New Testament never speaks to the government, nor to Christians as a part of the government (except in the case of the soldiers coming to John the Baptist, under the Old Covenant), but always to the Christians about the government. Thus, Romans 13 does not justify participation in government, as many think, but rather says "he" is God's servant "to thee . . . he beareth not the sword in vain . . . he is a revenger." But "ye must needs be subject . . . ye pay tribute . . . they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing" (justice, order, revenge).

Does a democratic form of government make every citizen a part of the government as some say? They say this to justify voting, saying "all are a part of the government anyhow, whether they vote or not, so we might as well use our opportunity to help control it." If this is true, then we become responsible for the actions of the government and the killing even though we refuse to fight. This we deny, maintaining, as God's people have done in the past, that we are not a part of the carnal government and want no part. Why then should we, by voting, acknowledge that which we so strenuously deny by our refusal to fight or hold public office?

No, brethren, but let us remember that we are now already living in the heavenly kingdom, our King is the Lord Jesus, and for that King we are willing to die!

tjservant Sep 6, 2007

Of course it would be easier to simply state that none of us can ever be involved in earthly government or serve in the miliatry. Certainly most of the teachings of the New Testament seem harder if not impossible for those in public and military service. However, this incongruity between Godliness and the seedier aspects of public service, is not the same as a de facto prohibition, just as ambiguity is not a license or endorsement.

Well put Compton.

sermonindex Sep 7, 2007

pastorfrin wrote:
Nonresistance and Nonparticipation in Civil Government
by Paul Horst
Tract 21E74
published by Rod and Staff Publishers, Inc. Crockett, KY 41413
On this subject we have many Scriptures. "Resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also . . ." "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you . . ." (Matthew 5:38-48). "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, saith the Lord" (Romans 12:19).
Also, in Ephesians 6:12 and 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 we are plainly told that our warfare is spiritual, not physical, and the weapons, although they are powerful and effective, are not of this world (carnal).
Finally, in Hebrews 11:13-16 we clearly see that the child of God has a heavenly country and therefore a heavenly citizenship which demands his first allegiance. Any nation on earth in which he dwells must realize that he is there as an alien, and that, although he will endeavor to be subject to their will where possible, he cannot be expected to participate in their affairs nor compromise his heavenly citizenship.
As we consider these truths and others, such as the Beatitudes, we come to see that nonresistance is not just a matter of what we will do or not do in certain situations, but rather a very spirit of meekness, humility, and love which possesses the Christian when he is truly born again. The spirit of resentment, revenge, and retaliation is crucified with self, and the new spirit becomes our way of life.
Not Nonviolence or Passive Resistance
This is not nonviolence or passive resistance, which, though not involving physical force, does yet manifest the spirit of resistance and demanding of our rights. Guy F. Hershberger, a Mennonite leader, has stated: "The [black's] leader, Martin Luther King, has successfully trained thousands in something which we have professed to believe for four hundred years - the way of nonviolence." This is clearly false, for the way of nonviolence includes many things foreign to the way of nonresistance, such as lobbying to influence legislation, demanding of our rights and privileges, refusal to obey the law even when obedience does not involve one in wrongdoing. Of course we can have no part in suppression or inequalities, but nonviolence is not the answer, nor is this what we have professed to believe for four hundred years, but rather we believe that which Jesus and the early church professed - nonresistance.
Not Only Abstinence From Vengeance
Neither is it only abstinence from personal vengeance, for the Old Testament already forbade this and made provision for orderly judgment and punishment (Deuteronomy 19). Therefore, we believe that Jesus intended that all vengeance is forbidden to the Christian. How could He have made it more clear? God says (1 Peter 2:21-24) that Jesus is our example and that He, when reviled, reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not, but committed Himself to God. Shall we, then who profess to follow Him, lift our hands or weapons to defend our lands, houses, families, or our own bodies? Shall we not rather leave all vengeance to God and those whom He shall use to execute His wrath? (See Romans 13).
Not An Endeavor to Bring About World Peace
The Bible leaves us no hope that men shall ever be able to bring about world peace through disarmament, political lobbying, and so forth, owing to the very nature of the world and the heart of man. Therefore, nonresistance is no futile attempt or fanciful dream to that end.

Neither is it an effort to "bury our heads" to the evil around us, but rather the result of a firm conviction that evil must be met by spiritual resistance; and must be overcome with good (Romans 12:21). It is true that God used His people in the past, as a nation, to punish sin; and provides for such punishment today through earthly government; and will in the future bring condemnation upon all the ungodly. Yet the people of God in this age are given the ministry of reconciliation rather than the ministry of retribution. "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour" (Romans 13:10).
That this spirit must fill all of life, we see in 1 Peter 3:8, 9, for here it is applied to the home and our closest relationships. Here it is that we are apt to be the most careless in exercising those virtues which rise out of love. Here, too, we see how to apply it to all situations, for if it is good for the home, as all agree, then it is good for neighbors, friends, strangers, and enemies.
Not Opposed to Government
Let it be said, however, that while we cannot participate in earthly governments, we are not opposed to them, but rather accept them as a necessary part of an evil, unregenerate society. We lend them our support in every Scriptural way (by prayer, financial support, and obedience wherever possible without conflict with the Word of God).
Some have supposed that the early church and the Anabaptists opposed participation in the government because of the nature of the governments under which they lived, but we have no reason to think they would have acted differently under any other form of government. The reasons which they gave and the Scriptures set forth in support of nonparticipation apply equally to dictatorships, kingdoms, and democracies. This is true in time of peace as well as during persecution. Jesus refused to be made king or judge (John 6:15; Luke 12:13, 14). Also, we notice that the New Testament never speaks to the government, nor to Christians as a part of the government (except in the case of the soldiers coming to John the Baptist, under the Old Covenant), but always to the Christians about the government. Thus, Romans 13 does not justify participation in government, as many think, but rather says "he" is God's servant "to thee . . . he beareth not the sword in vain . . . he is a revenger." But "ye must needs be subject . . . ye pay tribute . . . they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing" (justice, order, revenge).
Does a democratic form of government make every citizen a part of the government as some say? They say this to justify voting, saying "all are a part of the government anyhow, whether they vote or not, so we might as well use our opportunity to help control it." If this is true, then we become responsible for the actions of the government and the killing even though we refuse to fight. This we deny, maintaining, as God's people have done in the past, that we are not a part of the carnal government and want no part. Why then should we, by voting, acknowledge that which we so strenuously deny by our refusal to fight or hold public office?
No, brethren, but let us remember that we are now already living in the heavenly kingdom, our King is the Lord Jesus, and for that King we are willing to die!

[color=00EE55]I believe the Bible teaches us to be at peace with everryone, if possible. I often refer back to Peter who resisted the Roman soldiers who came to arrest Jesus. As you know Jesus put his ear back on and used Peter to preach the first sermon after the Holy Spirit fell on HIS disciples. As I have said in other post on SI, the Bible never teaches us to not resist the devil. Jesus will put all the ears back back on then that he desires to. The devil works best in other people to comes to but kill, steal and destroy. If anyone has any problem discerning that the present day terrorist are doing the devil's work, doesn't have very much discernment. Yes, Jesus will come back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords for those who revere HIM as that LORD here on earth. Oh, if the people who have this rollover mentality would just all move to one country and invite the terrorist over for a Bible class and that would fix everything, then we could have peace, right. The first thing they would demand is you refer to Jesus as ALLAH. ANd that should be where if we are christian we die. Of course, some want to enjoy the protections of a government and police protection also and not participate in either or offer up any prayers for either the military or the police and the same bunch of liberals turn right around and criticize the government for not rushing to darfar in defense of the genicide that is occuring there. Does it sound like it is talking out both sides of the mouth to you? It does to me. If you are a christian, eternal life has already begun when Jesus forgave us of our sins and HE made you a brother by adoption, whereby we can cry out to our Abba Father in heaven. The terrorist have many plans to take over America and one of them is to deceive all the people and take over without firing a shot. I noticed most of the people who criticize the military protection for their families and protection that provides freedom to worship a Holy God, doesn't ever disclose their native country location on their profile on SI. I wonder why? I say God Bless and may God Bless America so they can Bless others with the gospel and food and medicine and everything else.[/color]

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

I noticed most of the people who criticize the military protection for their families and protection that provides freedom to worship a Holy God, doesn't ever disclose their native country location on their profile on SI.

This is wrong, or at least stated wrongly. No military provides "freedom" to worship God, nor is our ability to worship God dependent upon any group of men with guns, or any Bill of Rights, or anything else besides our love for God.

Sure, we have men in uniforms that make the consequences of doing so less severe, for the time being. But I believe, as do many on this forum that this world is coming to a place where that will not be the case. So what do we do? Do we shield ourselves from persecution as long as possible by displacing the violence onto other people? Or do we surround ourselves in the hope of a freedom that no AK47 or smart bomb will ever gain us? Our actions have consequences. If we live by the sword, we die by the sword.

-K_DAY

pastorfrin Sep 8, 2007

I believe the Bible teaches us to be at peace with everryone, if possible. I often refer back to Peter who resisted the Roman soldiers who came to arrest Jesus. As you know Jesus put his ear back on and used Peter to preach the first sermon after the Holy Spirit fell on HIS disciples. As I have said in other post on SI, the Bible never teaches us to not resist the devil. Jesus will put all the ears back back on then that he desires to. The devil works best in other people to comes to but kill, steal and destroy. If anyone has any problem discerning that the present day terrorist are doing the devil's work, doesn't have very much discernment. Yes, Jesus will come back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords for those who revere HIM as that LORD here on earth. Oh, if the people who have this rollover mentality would just all move to one country and invite the terrorist over for a Bible class and that would fix everything, then we could have peace, right. The first thing they would demand is you refer to Jesus as ALLAH. ANd that should be where if we are christian we die. Of course, some want to enjoy the protections of a government and police protection also and not participate in either or offer up any prayers for either the military or the police and the same bunch of liberals turn right around and criticize the government for not rushing to darfar in defense of the genicide that is occuring there. Does it sound like it is talking out both sides of the mouth to you? It does to me. If you are a christian, eternal life has already begun when Jesus forgave us of our sins and HE made you a brother by adoption, whereby we can cry out to our Abba Father in heaven. The terrorist have many plans to take over America and one of them is to deceive all the people and take over without firing a shot. I noticed most of the people who criticize the military protection for their families and protection that provides freedom to worship a Holy God, doesn't ever disclose their native country location on their profile on SI. I wonder why? I say God Bless and may God Bless America so they can Bless others with the gospel and food and medicine and everything else.

Ephes. 6:10-20
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; [19] And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

By the way Moe, that country or I should say kingdom does exist, only not by man.

John 18:36-37
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. [37] Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

pastorfrin

Compton Sep 8, 2007

My kingdom is not of this world:

This week our litle girl told us about a Jehovah Witness classmate at school that is forbidden by her parents to say the pledge of allegiance. I was curious if perhaps some people here at SI feel the same way. (Maybe this question has been asked before.) Are there some SI brethren who believe it is wrong to join in the pledge of allegiance to the United States or any other state?

I'm not 'going anywhere' with this question...just curious. Perhaps such a 'poll' should be the start of another thread...

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

K-Day wrote:This is wrong, or at least stated wrongly. No military provides "freedom" to worship God, nor is our ability to worship God dependent upon any group of men with guns, or any Bill of Rights, or anything else besides our love for God.

~~[u]~~Sure, we have men in uniforms that make the consequences of doing so less severe, for the time being.[/u] But I believe, as do many on this forum that this world is coming to a place where that will not be the case. So what do we do? Do we shield ourselves from persecution as long as possible by displacing the violence onto other people? Or do we surround ourselves in the hope of a freedom that no AK47 or smart bomb will ever gain us? Our actions have consequences. If we live by the sword, we die by the sword.
-K_DAY

[color=003399] moe wrote: And where are you from? Whooo you really tooted the horns of those putting their life on the line in the underlined. How greatful you are!!! I wonder if you are as grateful and thankful to Jesus for giving HIS life, for the sins of the world, as you are the soldiers for their friends and their nation against evil.

You say less severe, why don't you trade places with them and you say wrongly stated: (according to who?) Osama Bin Laden. Maybe you need to move to Iran or North Korea and proclaim HIS name in public or start a church and see how LESS SEVERE IT IS, if you don't think America's law's and military gives you any protection to worship HIM on earth. That's pure ignorance and liberal rethoric and also disrespect for military people who put their life on the line to give others protection from those doing the devil's work, if you indeed live in America. No greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his friends. What you are saying, is just what the enemy wants and promotes to be put out to the people to deceive them. Read the passage below and just in case you don't know what a centurion is. It is a soldier. Then read verse 9. Wake up if you live in America and if you don't I wonder just what the motive for the post is.

Luke 7:8-9
2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.

3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:

5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
KJV
8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
KJV[/color]

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

quote]
Compton wrote:

My kingdom is not of this world:

I'm not 'going anywhere' with this question...just curious. Perhaps such a 'poll' should be the start of another thread...

moe wrote:These people you are referring to are not, I repeat are not true witnesses for the Jehovah God I serve, because they leave out the part where Jehovah is coming back in mighty power and great glory to get those whose have made HIM LORD of their life. When the false Jehovah witnesses come to your house, just tell them, yea I'm a true Jehovah witness, you are not. Until he comes for us serve God, family, and country and resist evil.

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

And where are you from?

I am originally from Indianapolis, Indiana, and now I live in Chicago.

Whooo you really tooted the horns of those putting their life on the line in the underlined.

My intention certainly wasn't to "toot anyone's horns." I am just trying to make the point that all I need to be free in this life is communion with Jesus. I have lived in absolute bondage in my life, despite living in a country that is a pillar of democracy. My freedom didn't come from the military, it came from the cross, and I don't think I need to apologize for that.

I wonder if you are as grateful and thankful to Jesus for giving HIS life, for the sins of the world, as you are the soldiers for their friends and their nation against evil.

I'm not sure I understand your comparison. To me Jesus' death on the cross is absolutely incomparable to any death that a man can die. Please explain to me why you think my conviction that all matters be handled peacefully means that I love Jesus less. Thats a really hurtful shot you took at me and you don't even know me.

You say less severe, why don't you trade places with them and you say wrongly stated: (according to who?) Osama Bin Laden. Maybe you need to move to Iran or North Korea and proclaim HIS name in public or start a church and see how LESS SEVERE IT IS, if you don't think America's law's and military gives you any protection to worship HIM on earth.

I think maybe you are taking what I said the wrong way. You know, I have served as a missionary over-seas in places that haven't been as sugar coated as you think my life in America has been. I have been around Muslims who have found their savior, only to be excommunicated from their family, and threatened to be killed. I have read about guys like Brother Yun who have been continuously tortured. I have read about the persecution of the apostles. And still, I maintain that all of those men experienced more freedom than most Americans with our fancy churches and freedom of expression. I guess I just define freedom differently than you, Moe Mac.

And if you want to make it personally about me, I have always been transparent about where I stand with these things. I admit that there is a gap between what I know is true, and where my heart is. Between how I know I should act, and how I would. Sure, I could move to N. Korea, or Iran and proclaim the truth, or try to start a church. And truthfully, maybe I don't have the faith to do that yet. Moe Mac, I wholeheartedly acknowledge that the consequences of doing so in N. Korea or Iran are drastically different than in the U.S. However, to me, I will be the most free when I am able to love God with 100% of my heart, without fear, no matter where I am, and no matter what the consequences are for doing so! That to me is freedom!

Please try not to get upset with me, or let your horns get tooted OK? :-D I think we can carry this on without presuming things about each other, or taking any personal shots. Take care!

-K_DAY

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

K-day
And still, I maintain that all of those men experienced more freedom than most Americans with our fancy churches and freedom of expression. I guess I just define freedom differently than you, Moe Mac.

moe wrote: No sir I define freeedom the same way you do. Jesus is our Blessed Hope. All the military in the world could not save me from hell only what Jesus did on the cross can do that. I want to continue to toot Jesus' horn until HE calls me home. But I also want to toot the people who put their earthly life on the line for mine.

I know the Lord appreciates your missionary work and I do as well. Preaching Jesus is the most important thing in the world. The only thing that is permanant and lasting. Our freedom definition is not any different when we are talking about eternity in hell or heaven. Your are right we as Americans should be waking the world up shouting HIS name in praise and we are not. We have an enemy that wants to stop the missionaries, the preachers, and all who proclaim HIS name. I think that is what really gets me irritated is I know the devil is working in the terrorist lives. Sorry ,I know I came down pretty hard in my post on the military people's behalf, forgive me if I offended you. You have not offended me. If God required a certain span of time in righteous living and devotion to HIM I know I would never be able to make a post or speak HIS WORD.

I lived most of my life in sin in rebellion towards God and when I read Romans 12:1, I am well aware that I don't have near enough to offer back to HIM as I would like in thanksgiving and service to HIM, but I am still compelled to speak. God Bless brother.
moe_mac

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

Moe Mac-

Wow! I was really hoping I didn't open up a can of sour worms! Thank you so much for your post, the manner in which you presented it, and the encouragement you gave me. It was just what I needed tonight! :-D

I am also glad that we are on the same page as to what we believe freedom is. There is nothing like it! Makes me wonder why I so often subject myself to anything besides it...

We have an enemy that wants to stop the missionaries, the preachers, and all who proclaim HIS name.

Very true. I am experiencing that attack in some very real ways in my life right now.

I think that is what really gets me irritated is I know the devil is working in the terrorist lives

Ever since my father died, I haven't felt that same holy anger that you speak of. I still acknowledge it all in my head, but there is much that God needs to do in my life to properly realign my heart.

I guess the question is what to do about those terrorists that the devil has a hold on. I want to believe powerfully that "our weapons are not of this world!" I realize that if we kill them, we are with our own hands ending their life and beginning their eternity in hell. To me that is a dreadful thought. Do they deserve hell? Of course. And so do I. I am thankful that I was shown mercy.

Could America not have sent missionaries instead of soldiers? Food instead of bombs? Sure they may have slaughtered us, but our hands would be clean, and perhaps some sinners would repent. These outcomes would be far worth the cost of our life, and great would our reward be in heaven. And I pray that the Lord may enable me to be prepared to live by these standards if so called to.

God bless.

-K_DAY

Compton Sep 8, 2007

Hi Moe Mac,

These people you are referring to are not, I repeat are not true witnesses for the Jehovah God I serve,

I understand that....I was just telling about an incident and was curious if perhaps some people here at SI feel the same way about 'pledging allegiance' to an 'earthly kingdom.' I mean if you really feel this nation is the literal incarnation of Babylon or the 21st century manifestation of ancient Rome, all of which is perhaps understandable, then such convictions would make it difficult if not impossible to pledge allegiance to this nation.

I was just curious how literal people are willing to follow their convictions. Obviously the Jehovah Witnesses, as misled as they are, are very serious about their seperation from earthly allegiances. Though I am no expert on JW doctrine, they clearly are teaching their children exclusive allegiance to only one 'kingdom'. Much of the discussion regarding nations and governments here at SI is similar in tone...I was just wondering if espousing beliefs about not being citizens of an earthly kingdom has any bearing on something as simple yet profound as placing your hand over your heart and publicly vowing allegiance to an earthly kingdom.

It's probably too personal of a question for me to ask.

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

Compton wrote:
Hi Moe Mac,

These people you are referring to are not, I repeat are not true witnesses for the Jehovah God I serve,
I understand that....I was just telling about an incident and was curious if perhaps some people here at SI feel the same way about 'pledging allegiance' to an 'earthly kingdom.' I mean if you really feel this nation is the literal incarnation of Babylon or the 21st century manifestation of ancient Rome, all of which is perhaps understandable, then such convictions would make it difficult if not impossible to pledge allegiance to this nation.
I was just curious how literal people are willing to follow their convictions. Obviously the Jehovah Witnesses, as misled as they are, are very serious about their seperation from earthly allegiances. Though I am no expert on JW doctrine, they clearly are teaching their children exclusive allegiance to only one 'kingdom'. Much of the discussion regarding nations and governments here at SI is similar in tone...I was just wondering if espousing beliefs about not being citizens of an earthly kingdom has any bearing on something as simple yet profound as placing your hand over your heart and publicly vowing allegiance to an earthly kingdom.
It's probably too personal of a question for me to ask.
MC

moe_mac
I am well aware of the point you were driving home and that is why I posted my reply. Your post to me was more of a statement, than a question. A statement I have addressed over and over again. A way of thinking I believe that is turning a nation that once honored God and country into deception of just how we are to resist evil in the world. Brother, I am well aware you have plenty of company in this way of new modern way of thinking. If God did not want you to serve others and protect others in the world, after he filled us with His Spirit, HE would have took us on to heaven when he saved our soul. Our allegience is to the Lamb and when it is to the Lamb, it will be in our spirit to protect and to urge others to come to HIM and will be also to provide protection for others including protection from the evil ones, the devil uses to destroy their bodies, before God can save their soul.
Blessings
moe

Compton Sep 8, 2007

Moe,

It was really just a question. I was taking care to ask with clarity, but hopefully without trying to interject my own editorial or idealogical slant...an intentional ambiguity that could account for you incorrectly identifying the 'company' I share.

I still think it's an interesting question, but I see now that any possible answer would only result in strife. I'll just admit it was a mistake to ask the question,... I regret asking it, and drop the issue.

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

Brother, I am well aware you have plenty of company in this way of new modern way of thinking.

Can you please clarify what you are referring to as a "new modern way of thinking"? If this way of thinking you are referring to is nonresistance, then I would certainly suggest reworking that statement.

Sure, nonresistance has never been at the heart of America, but it is certainly nothing new. Read about the history of the Anabaptists, for example. Going back further, I remember our Lord commanding us, "Don't resist and evil person." To write it off as just a "new modern way of thinking" is inaccurate, and seems to degrade those in that company as some sort of new age life philosophy. Other people in this forum have been so bold as to call those in that company "hippies."

People who believe this are very solemn and sincere in their convictions before God, and are not trying to invent doctrine or new aqe philosophies. Nor are they just a bunch of "liberals." It has nothing to do with any of that, and everything to with trying to serve God and understand how we are commanded to serve others to the best of our ability.

-K_DAY

PreachParsly Sep 8, 2007

Compton wrote:
My kingdom is not of this world:
This week our litle girl told us about a Jehovah Witness classmate at school that is forbidden by her parents to say the pledge of allegiance. I was curious if perhaps some people here at SI feel the same way. (Maybe this question has been asked before.) Are there some SI brethren who believe it is wrong to join in the pledge of allegiance to the United States or any other state?
I'm not 'going anywhere' with this question...just curious. Perhaps such a 'poll' should be the start of another thread...
MC

I can't say it's wrong nor do I think those who do are "less spiritual" or something silly like that, but personally it troubles my conscience to pledge allegiance to the flag.

PreachParsly Sep 8, 2007

By the way, I'm not an anti-government hippy!

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

Yet,

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a ~~[b]~~good conscience[/b], and of faith unfeigned:

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and ~~[b]~~a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: [/b]

EDIT:

I mean if you really feel this nation is the literal incarnation of Babylon

That made me laugh. Just in case I need to say it, I don't believe that. :-D

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

K_DAY wrote:
Brother, I am well aware you have plenty of company in this way of new modern way of thinking.
Can you please clarify what you are referring to as a "new modern way of thinking"? If this way of thinking you are referring to is nonresistance, then I would certainly suggest reworking that statement.
Sure, nonresistance has never been at the heart of America, but it is certainly nothing new. Read about the history of the Anabaptists, for example. Going back further, I remember our Lord commanding us, "Don't resist and evil person." To write it off as just a "new modern way of thinking" is inaccurate, and seems to degrade those in that company as some sort of new age life philosophy. Other people in this forum have been so bold as to call those in that company "hippies."
People who believe this are very solemn and sincere in their convictions before God, and are not trying to invent doctrine or new aqe philosophies. Nor are they just a bunch of "liberals." It has nothing to do with any of that, and everything to with trying to serve God and understand how we are commanded to serve others to the best of our ability.
-K_DAY

[color=FF0000]What I am referring to as liberals, without going into a long spill, the christian's service to a nation has changed from 1963 when a few federal judges removed any reference to scripture in schools and anything else or place and this is in direct contrast to the history of our nation that is not only reflected in the the constitution that was written by not only Godly men, but mostly preachers of he gospel, whose main objective was to serve God, in the name of Jesus and set up a goverment against evil and in dependency upon HIM would allow God use them to reach others for HIS kingdom. This is what has changed. We all know the spill and we know the groups that support this withput naming them. It is an agenda to deceive the younger generation in knowing and believing that God is our source and our strength in everything, including government. Destroy it form the inside. "Unless the Lord build, we labor in vain", one of our past Presidents said. Another said "when we no longer consider ourselves one nation under God, we will be a nation gone under". It is not my intent on promoting any party, but only speaking the fact that we in the past history of America we did look to HIM and we need to get back to giving HIM supremacy in everything, including goverment, until He returns for those who are HIS. I will speak out and stand against all who don't desire to acknowledge HIS supremacy in everything, regardless of party, color, creed or whatever else. Those people that does not acknowledge HIS supremacy is what I am calling liberal. A hippy is a lesser evil my book.[/color]

crsschk Sep 8, 2007

moe_mac
I am well aware of the point you were driving home and that is why I posted my reply. Your post to me was more of a statement, than a question. A statement I have addressed over and over again. A way of thinking I believe that is turning a nation that once honored God and country into deception of just how we are to resist evil in the world. Brother, I am well aware you have plenty of company in this way of new modern way of thinking.

That is an insinuation and wrong Moe, Compton need not have to had to state this;

I still think it's an interesting question, but I see now that any possible answer would only result in strife. I'll just admit it was a mistake to ask the question,... I regret asking it, and drop the issue.
MC

PreachParsly Sep 8, 2007

the christian's service to a nation has changed from 1963

I don't understand. How can a judge change what the Bible says? Assuming we get information on "the christian's service to a nation" from the Bible. I'm not saying this from an apolitical or political mindset, but I don't see how anything a man could do would change what the Bible says.

the the constitution that was written by not only Godly men, but mostly preachers of he gospel, whose main objective was to serve God, in the name of Jesus and set up a goverment against evil and in dependency upon HIM would allow God use them to reach others for HIS kingdom.

My question would be, where does the Bible say to set up governments against evil? And if we weren't commanded to do such, how can we be sure it was God ordained?

Please understand, I'm not against America or any other government. I'm happy where I am located in the world. I just don't believe there is such a things as a "Christian nation" unless your referring to the Church or the "millennial reign."

EDIT: I decided to cross something out.

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

crsschk wrote:
moe_mac
I am well aware of the point you were driving home and that is why I posted my reply. Your post to me was more of a statement, than a question. A statement I have addressed over and over again. A way of thinking I believe that is turning a nation that once honored God and country into deception of just how we are to resist evil in the world. Brother, I am well aware you have plenty of company in this way of new modern way of thinking.
That is an insinuation and wrong Moe, Compton need not have to had to state this;

I still think it's an interesting question, but I see now that any possible answer would only result in strife. I'll just admit it was a mistake to ask the question,... I regret asking it, and drop the issue.
MC

moe_mac wrote:
I agree Compton, I see had no reason to withdraw the question either. This is a forum of opinions on what God's Word to each one of us and what it has to say to us in general and it seems what it has to say on relevancy of the current times. Can I ask you if you think Compton's opinion more important than mine? I don't think so, nor his opinion any less important than mine, either. I gave an opinion and not an insinuation on a way of thinking not a personal insult, at least that was what I intended. If the shoe doesn't fit, he doesn't have to wear it. My comments were not actually addressed to Compton as much as what I believe to be a force against truth and to subdue any resistance against evil. It is not a stuggle against flesh and blood but powers and principalities. In have no fight with or am I angry with Compton or anyone else on SI, including you, but I do with have a problem with the devil's lies that a government is not to resist evil. Preachparly just today wrote a post on the difference between how God's Word applies to individuals and government. Great post preachparsly

If you wish, you are the moderator and after this post of rebuke to me, I must say this, I am well aware of your authority as a moderator and all you have to do is tell me that I am not welcome to my opinion of what God's Word says on SI and I will not make anymore post. I had rather you do it on a public post, if you choose not to give me that priviledge to post, rather than private communication or just locking out my address where I can't comment. But until that time I must continue to speak what I believe to be truth.

moe_mac
edit: well I guess it wasn't preachparly that wrote the diffence on God's Word in government and individuals at least I can't find it now. Excuse!!!

PreachParsly Sep 8, 2007

well I guess it wasn't preachparly that wrote the diffence on God's Word in government and individuals at least I can't find it now.

:-D I think you are referring to the first post on this thread, right?

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

PreachParsly wrote:
well I guess it wasn't preachparly that wrote the diffence on God's Word in government and individuals at least I can't find it now.
:-D I think you are referring to the first post on this thread, right?

Yes Sir that is correct. It was not you that wrote the post. I stand corrected and apoligize for the error. :oops:

Compton Sep 8, 2007

Well it seems that sometimes, like in basketball, you need to follow through your shots. :-) ...can't just retract it once it's out there.

I was less worried that Moe was angry with me, and more concerned that I was perhaps unconsciously baiting people with my question. Honestly, my little girl's account of her classmates abstaining from saying the pledge was kind of a promptor for me to ask if anyone here agreed.

I've read many of Moe's posts and know how much he love's the Lord, and am glad to call him a friend in this forum. (Well, we all are!)Chalk this one up to poor communication.

Thanks Preach for this...

...personally it troubles my conscience to pledge allegiance to the flag.

I certainly understand this, and even respect the consistency, the intellectual integrity, and the moral honesty your conflict of conscience demonstrates.

I should answer my own question. Personally I am honored to say the pledge of allegiance because I am only pledging allegiance to the highest ideals of this nation, and not to the corruption and morally bankrupt leaders who currently plague it. I do not believe I am being hypocrytical in choosing to see my country with such filtered vision, because I use the same kind of hopeful filter in choosing to love the Church.

One of my all time favorite movie lines is from the film "The War to End all Wars." There is a scene where these WWII Scottish POW's in a Japanese camp were being permitted to form a crude orchestra as a reward for good behavior. On the night of their big concert they played the familiar theme of Beethoven's 9th Symphony "Ode to Joy." The moment left a lasting impression on me. As the half starved musicians in ragged clothes began to play their string and wind intruments, the air was filled with a lush rich symphonic recording of the music that embodied hope and joy, but all too soon this wonderful sound faded away into the actual sound the prisoners were really making...a pitiful squawking and wheezing of untuned, dissonant, broken intruments. But the narrator's voice explained the real meaning of the scene. "That night the music we made wasn't exactly beautiful. In fact it was bloody awful. But to our ears it was the most glorious thing we had ever heard. It was the sound of what we could be. It was the sound of freedom." (Aprox. paraphrase)

This to how I can pledge allegiance to these United States without conflict in my conscience before the Lord.

Blessings brethren,

(P.S. Thanks Lazarus for allowing this detour in this thread!)

sermonindex Sep 8, 2007

Lazarus1719 wrote:
The topic of war and capital punishment has come up lately on campus and I thought I would share my quick thoughts on it.
We must make a proper distinction between ~~[u]~~~~[b]~~individual relations[/b][/u] and ~~[u]~~~~[b]~~governmental relations[/b][/u]. This is vital to a proper understanding of the issue. Failure to make a distinction between individual relations and governmental relations would result in total anarchy and chaos.
~~[u]~~~~[b]~~Individual relations:[/b][/u]
Mt 5:39 - But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mt 6:14-15 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
~~[u]~~~~[b]~~Governmental Relations:[/b][/u]
Romans 13:1-6 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves d**nation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. ~~[u]~~~~[b]~~But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil[/b][/u]. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
As individuals, we must overcome all vindictiveness, bitterness, hatred, revenge, etc.
But the government has a God ordained ministry to execute the wrath of the sword upon evildoers. The government is responsible for the protection of the community and so it passes good laws. And it is responsible for upholding those good laws. The purpose of punishment is to declare the value of those laws; thus the punishment must fit the crime. The punishment of law breakers is to uphold the laws that they broke. And those laws serve the purpose of protecting the community.
So on an individual level, we absolutely must forgive everyone. We will not be forgiven by God if we ourselves do not forgive others.
But the government has a God ordained ministry to protect the community, which includes passing laws and then upholding laws through punishment.
And so protecting the community requires sending criminals to prison as well as capital punishment for more serious offenses. A serious offense requires a serious punishment as a public declaration of the value of the law that was violated.
And since the government has the God ordained ministry of protecting the community and executing the sword, that includes going to war when absolutely necessary for the public good.
The community would not be save if the government did not pass laws and uphold laws through punishment; and the community would not be save if the government did not protect the community through war from foreign threats.

[color=663300]Good post and good backed up with scripture. I often wonder when we see the prophets of the Old Testament will be in heaven. When we read this fact and we can see from scripture that God said to them "Well done good and faithful servants and when we consider that David killed Goliath, Joshua faught battles, and Moses, and all the Old Testament prophets faught against evil and if it be displeasing to the Lord then why do we have this scipture?
Luke 13:28-30
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth,~~[u]~~ when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.[/u] 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
How did they get to heaven if it is indeed wrong to fight against evil and defend the helpless? Anyone care to explain that. It don't sound as if they got thrown out for fighting against evil to me?[/color]

crsschk Sep 8, 2007

Chalk this one up to poor communication.

Or just misunderstanding, a common and unfortunate thing that happens here.

Moe, there is no reason to go that far either. Not willing to go back and be didactic over this but it appeared you were taking something said in general as personal and then making a somewhat slighted comment, an assumption of his perspective.

It is redundant to state it but it is not the particular opinions just the mannerisms and affiliated assumptions that can come about. As you said, you did not intend it but perhaps you can see where others didn't see it that way.

HomeFree89 Sep 8, 2007

Compton wrote:
My kingdom is not of this world:
This week our litle girl told us about a Jehovah Witness classmate at school that is forbidden by her parents to say the pledge of allegiance. I was curious if perhaps some people here at SI feel the same way. (Maybe this question has been asked before.) Are there some SI brethren who believe it is wrong to join in the pledge of allegiance to the United States or any other state?
I'm not 'going anywhere' with this question...just curious. Perhaps such a 'poll' should be the start of another thread...
MC

I wouldn't tell others not to, but I personally don't and won't. Why pledge to a flag when we can pledge ourselves to the Lamb?

Jordan

theopenlife Sep 8, 2007

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

--- I would not choose not to pledge allegiance to men of any earthly country, to obey their worldly laws, but have pledged to obey God to the benefit of all men, everywhere.

I pledge allegiance to my Savior
to fulfill His word in the land,
to love my brethren and my neighbor:
Preaching liberty in Christ alone
by grace through faith in His name.

Hebrews 11:10 - "he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

sermonindex Sep 9, 2007

What do you guys think of these two characters in the New Testament?

Revelation 11:5 - And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

It seems to me that they were given authority from God to kill their enemies with fire.

Likewise with Romans 13, the government has been given authority from God to execute the wrath of the sword.

And the same God of love also said: Luke 19:27 - "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

I hope that we can all agree that our loving God will be holding public executions on Judgment Day.

The extend of my argument would be that ~~[b]~~it's the ~~[u]~~governments[/u] responsibility to protect the ~~[u]~~country[/u] and it's a ~~[u]~~Fathers[/u] responsibility to protect his ~~[u]~~family[/u][/b].

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