Is Calvinism for reaching the Lost or Reaching the Saved?

I am not calvinist or Armenian but I love Calvinists.I believe they are a part of the body of Christ,.I know alot of Godly 5 pointers ,7 pointers and 12 pointers and so on...

My notice though of alot of our brothers who abide and teach Calvinism spend more time preaching to other believers then to the Lost.Maybe it is a maturity issue that these guys suffer from or who I am fellowshiping with.Anyone out there notice this also?

Remember I love my Reformed Bro's I am not bashing just throwing a question out there.

i love the calvinist also! i just dont like what they teach :-P

Blunt, I've also noticed that there seems to be a strong obligation on the part of the calvinists to endoctrinate the rest of christianity. I still haven't figured out why it is that they have such a stong agenda to propagate their theology. But it is obviously there. I don't despise my calvinist brothers either. George Whitefield is my biggest hero of the faith. Along with Edwards, Spurgeon and the reformers. But I just don't understand why they sense such a need to fix everyone else's "bad" theology. Why can't we as the body of Christ just enjoy fellowshipping with each other without hammering on each other's beliefs? To me this is a very perplexing problem. :-( :-?

Another outstanding post Jim. I don't and won't ever believe that the secret of the lives of great men of God was in their doctrine, but rather in their dedication and devotion to God and Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a person, and His name is Jesus Christ.

And I do not know any Calvinist who would disagree with you, but the problem is that if a person is an Arminian, they do not believe that Christ alone saves a man. It must be Christ plus my good works that assure me of Heaven. Because Arminian belief is that Christ only made salvation possible, or wiped the slate clean , and now man must keep it clean.

Because so few truly know what Arminianism teaches, or where it cam from they assume that it must be true because it "feels" right, and makes God a very diplomatic God in that he offers salvation to everyone, and values everyones' opinions.

At the end of the day, if one would study the similarities between Arminianism and Roman Catholicism, they would see why there are Protestants, and why men and women died for the doctrines of justification by faith alone through Christ alone by God's grace alone to the glory of God alone as seen in Scripture alone.

I dont know.....
I have met personally some solid Jesus Loving reformer's.Doug Bookman Head of theology at Master's Seminary and Friends of Isreal,the late Ken Connolly "the History of the Bible Guy". Just like how the Jews were in stewardship of the word of God before the NT to me it seems our Calvinistic brothers lean toward's Intellectualism and Scholarship.I believe we need them for sure to defend the Scriptures scholarly and make in a way protect the Word from those who seek to change it.I think they get so Excited about thier new "Nuggets of Scriptural Knowledge "they have to share it!This is for sure if they took thier Zeal for pushing Calvinism and focused that on Jesus "Watch out we could have 10,000 spurgeons going to all the nations! Make that a million!

I hold to the same view you also do
but totally disagree
They ARE Saved !

Come on ......lets leave the saving power up to Jesus and not a sect. of christianity.Each one must come to terms with The Lord.
Take some time and fellowship with the guys you will spend Eternity with Bro!

Sadly though the majority of Calvinists are not saved, they know nothing more of the kingdom of God then the pharisees. (That goes for arminians and all other professing Christians too)

Care to elaborate on this. As you have now said that I am not saved, nor was Spurgeon, Luther, Tyndale, Edwards, Knox, Calvin, John Owen, Francis Schaeffer, and a vast cloud of men who did great things for God because they saw Him being the Animator and Sustainer of all things.

And may I ask, how could Romans 8:28 be true if God is not completely Sovereign over all that goes into His childrens' life?

jimdied2sin wrote:
Sadly though the majority of Calvinists are not saved, they know nothing more of the kingdom of God then the pharisees. (That goes for arminians and all other professing Christians too)

roaringlamb answered:
Care to elaborate on this. As you have now said that I am not saved, nor was Spurgeon, Luther, Tyndale, Edwards, Knox, Calvin, John Owen, Francis Schaeffer, and a vast cloud of men who did great things for God because they saw Him being the Animator and Sustainer of all things.

And may I ask, how could Romans 8:28 be true if God is not completely Sovereign over all that goes into His childrens' life?

Brother, Jim didn't say that, you read what is not written. He didn't say that someone because is Calvinist, will not be saved.

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, [b]I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.[/b] [i]Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you?[/i] or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name" -1st Corinthians 1:10-15.

"Out of an abundance of the Heart the mouth speaks."

Check your heart if you do not want to spend Eternity with those you are supposed to love.

Well that was encouraging....Moving on.

Boy this thread took a dive.

Sadly though [b]the majority of Calvinists are not saved,[/b] they know nothing more of the kingdom of God then the pharisees. (That goes for arminians and all other professing Christians too)

To which I replied
Care to elaborate on this. As you have now said that I am not saved, nor was Spurgeon, Luther, Tyndale, Edwards, Knox, Calvin, John Owen, Francis Schaeffer, and a vast cloud of men who did great things for God because they saw Him being the Animator and Sustainer of all things.

Now the second question was in the realm of seeing God's sovereignty over all things, not putting words or questions into anyone's mouths.
Here is the second question, I apologize that I was not clearer in my presentation which lead to some confusion.
And may I ask, how could Romans 8:28 be true if God is not completely Sovereign over all that goes into His childrens' life?

But now you say this

I never said that.. see how your gung ho theological warfare attitude clouds your reasoning?

So I must ask if this is in reference to the souls of Calvinist's or if it was in response to the Romans 8:28 question. Perhaps my lack of clarity lead to this, so I must ask.

Every blessing to you brother.

Good Thought's....

by LittleGift on 2007/9/7 6:47:28

Some thoughts on this:

Most doctrines, such as Calvinism, seem to arise because of a reaction against a false doctrine or practice. A reaction that may go too far in the opposite direction and may itself become a false doctrine.

So the pendulum swings from side to side of Truth, perhaps missing the heart of it altogether?

An example (besides Calvinism, though many Reformed people also take this view)is when someone is caught up in "hyper-charismania", then sees the error and deception in it. He may then overreact and will have nothing to do with even the right use of spiritual gifts, claiming they are ALL from Satan. (A few mental gymnastics easily convince him that the true gifts ceased with the apostles, so any modern expressions have to be counterfeit!)

I'm charismatic myself and I've seen this happen upfront. It's not pretty because the reaction is indeed emotional rather than genuinely spiritual in nature.

by LittleGift on 2007/9/7 6:47:28

Another reason for holding an extreme form of a teaching such as Calvinism may be personal experience. Someone like Luther for example, who (as a monk) desperately tried to make himself holy by penances, good works, self-flagellation, fanatic obedience to his superiors.

Then the Lord opened his eyes to the fact that it is by faith not works or deliberate striving or self-inflicted suffering that we please God.

But he was blind to other aspects of Truth, so much so that he rejected the epistle of James because it speaks of the expression of our salvation through righteous acts!

I also think that in today's context, there is a discontent among those who are seeing the corruption and lack of holiness within the modern church and simply want answers.

by LittleGift on 2007/9/7 6:47:28

Many modern Calvinists are probably reacting against liberalism, experientialism and other "wooly" forms of theology - that rely heavily on "good works" or the excuse (a half-truth) that "love" and "tolerance" are more important than doctrine.

The cry, "Why can't we all just love each other?" only increases most Calvinist's resistance because of being so aware of and on guard against this error. It makes little difference if the person making this appeal in no way promotes good works as a means to attain salvation or please God. The knee jerk reaction is often too strong to appreciate this fact.

Maybe that partly explains it?

Jeannette

You hit the nail right on the head, sister. But I think the real issue is one of maturity rather than genuine unity.
I've often noticed personally that when I try to raise an issue of doctrine before others, those in your immediate fellowship that are first to use the "Why can't we all just get along?" line of thinking are those whom you know are not really at full 100% in their walk with God. Ask these people if they're reading their Bible, spending time in prayer, helping others grow, whether they have a zeal to seek and save the lost; they'll gladly define their Christian walk as "an intimate relationship with God through Jesus Christ", even though they express no clear intent to know the person of God at all. You'll find that compared to those in "reaction", the difference is far too big.
Even so, the former will say - even in the same breath - "Why is there so much disunity in my church? Why are people backsliding and falling into sin? Why aren't people getting saved? Why does everything feel so shallow
Hellooo? :-?

by Blunt on 2007/9/7 4:46:57

I am not calvinist or Armenian but I love Calvinists.I believe they are a part of the body of Christ,.I know alot of Godly 5 pointers ,7 pointers and 12 pointers and so on...

My notice though of alot of our brothers who abide and teach Calvinism spend more time preaching to other believers then to the Lost.Maybe it is a maturity issue that these guys suffer from or who I am fellowshiping with.Anyone out there notice this also?

Remember I love my Reformed Bro's I am not bashing just throwing a question out there.

One consistant factor I've seen among Arminians who eventually shifted towards a Calvanist leaning (myself included) is that there is a coupling between intense Berean-level study of the Word as well as contemplation of what it is going to mean practically. This is an issue too close to the gospel that it will cause a person to also ask: How will this affect my fellowshipping? My discipleship? My ministries? My outreach? Compared to others, he is so self-concious of his own walk that he wants to tread carefully.

by Mahoney on 2007/9/7 5:56:26

You are aware that Paul Washer would consider himself a Calvinist....and he actually believes that the greatest need on the mission field is Theological training. Yes, after all of his years of experience on the mission field, he has come to the conclusion that the teaching of correct doctrine is most important.

I have to agree.
A lot of evangelistic instruction today is focused too much on how-to strategies regarding how to relate to people, cross-cultural communication, being friendly to people, etc, but what seems to be left out is actual instruction regarding the nature of salvation (whether it be Reformed, Arminian or in between). Ray Comfort's teaching certainly is an exception, but sadly a lot of newly trained evangelists seem to be going out into the harvest fields with little to no idea of the implications of what they're going to share.

I've often noticed personally that when I try to raise an issue of doctrine before others, those in your immediate fellowship that are first to use the "Why can't we all just get along?" line of thinking are those whom you know are not really at full 100% in their walk with God.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Boy... there sure is a lot of pride on this thread.

i think its called sin.

The reformed doctrine is all about Christ. You mischaracterize the heart of some who follow the doctrine. I'm sorry you haven't met loving reformed people. I'd like to introduce myself and I know many, many others. Two of the most well known speakers I know are two of the most loving active Christians I've ever seen Arminian or Christian.... John Piper and Paul Washer. There are many, many, many. At the same time, as Paul Washer has said, there are many Arminians who have lived far above their theology and many Calvinist who have lived far below theirs. Holding the correct doctrine means nothing if Christ is not being formed in you.

That wasn't my point at all.

I am not at all saying that those unwilling to do their homework are without God entirely. The issue I'm raising is one of maturity in terms of discernment.

11About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits.
Hebrews 5:11-6:3

I am not equating adherence to the Reformed doctrine of salvation to spiritual maturity; I would gladly buy lunch for a brother in Christ who after diligent study and prayer shifted from Calvinism to traditional Arminianism leading them to greater love for God, love for people, and love for the lost, because their primary motive is to glorify God and edify others. In that respect, attributing those who adhere to either side of the argument out of purely proud motives as being pharisee-like is a due criticism, for such thinking is of no assistance to the body of Christ whatsoever.

What I'm trying to say is that there are indeed people who try to take the pacifist route simply because they really are not as concerned and hence may not really be willing to examine the issues and how it will apply to them in a responsible manner. The eventual outcome of this isn't unity as we would like to define it, but double-mindedness and semi-agnosticism.

In that respect, we shouldn't be quick to immediately write off these discussions as being divisive and ungodly as while there are those of us that are over-zealous for the wrong motives, there are also those who are genuinlely interested in expanding our vision of God's glory and the work of Christ not just for our own benefit, but for others as well so that we can fulfill the purposes that God has called his church to fulfill.

To put it simply, there comes a time in every little boy and every little girl's life when they walk up to their parents and ask upfront one of the most crucial, life-changing questions: Mummy, Daddy, where did I come from?

by whyme on 2007/9/8 11:08:43

The reformed doctrine is all about Christ. You mischaracterize the heart of some who follow the doctrine. I'm sorry you haven't met loving reformed people. I'd like to introduce myself and I know many, many others. Two of the most well known speakers I know are two of the most loving active Christians I've ever seen Arminian or Christian.... John Piper and Paul Washer. There are many, many, many. At the same time, as Paul Washer has said, there are many Arminians who have lived far above their theology and many Calvinist who have lived far below theirs. Holding the correct doctrine means nothing if Christ is not being formed in you.

Yes.
May our study and the things we learn serve to lead us closer to Him and His Glory, and not Usand our Pride. Amen

Well if you look at the Evolution of this Thread you can see some really unbroken people.

The whole point to this thread was to just simply state some observance about our loving Brothers in Christ. Find another thread if you want to fight and debate theology.

Or have you guys already destroyed those threads by Barfing on each other In Jesus' name?

Great observance.
So why do They seek so hard to conform everyone to thier intellectual image and not going after those who trully need Saving Grace?

Can anyone out there give a good illustration of Calvinistic evangelism without writing a thesis please?

Is Calvinism only around to convert Christian's?

Remember this is not a place to debate Calvinism but just a observance of our Jesus Loving Brother's.

Can Calvinism be a krutch for believer's in reaching the Lost? Speaking of the time and effort our Brothers put into perfecting what "they call" Doctrinal Purity.Trust me I am a Berean, I love Doctrine.I think it is essential but is Calvinism capable of nullying the Commission given to all those who follow Christ?
(honest Question)

Keep it simple.

No Statements over 30 words.

Simple, straight, Like statements made in the Bible.

Blunt,

It is not your place to dictate here.
Lose the deragatory comments.
Read the disclaimer at bottom.

this was originally posted in another thread, but i think this was very well and simple explanation of Calvinistic evangelism, if i remember right it was brother "lovehim" who wrote this

"The Good News of the Gospel is that Christ
might have died for you. If you aren't listening to the Word, and are resisting it, don't worry, because God will either make you obey and you'll agree with me in the end and we'll both be in Heaven - or you're already going to Hell so it's irrelevant what you do.

Come to Jesus today, no, not all of you, only those that are going to come anyway. I bring good news, if you're a special one - if not, bad luck."

Sorry if it offended you, not my intention to make anything offensive .I like simple answers and offcourse I cannot dictate I just prefer simple,it helps me.........Are you reformed Moderator?
Its not a Bad thing to be reformed.

Lazarus1719 wrote:
Here is something I have noticed as an inconsistency between Calvinists and Calvinism:

Calvinism says God does not want everyone to be saved.

Yet there are Calvinists who do want everyone to be saved.

So are some Calvinists more loving then the God of Calvinism?

Consider George Whitefield who used to weep over perishing sinners.

WHY did Whitefield weep? If God wanted them saved, according to Calvinism, by force He would save them.

Why would Whitefield weep over sinners that He believed God did not weep over?

Your premise is always that God forces people to be saved according to the Reformed faith. That is inaccurate and I hope just misinformed. Reformed believers believe that man will not come to God apart from a supernatural change of heart. They will not because they desire not.

Blunt wrote:
Great observance.
So why do They seek so hard to conform everyone to thier intellectual image and not going after those who trully need Saving Grace?

Can anyone out there give a good illustration of Calvinistic evangelism without writing a thesis please?

I respond with a question.....

How do Arminians preach the gospel when there are millions whom God knows will reject him? The answer is because we don't know who will be accepted into the beloved and so we preach to everyone. Reformed evangelism is just the same. We know not who God will supernaturally choose and change and so we preach to everyone. Would all Reformed believers like to see everyone saved? YES. Just like Arminians, we know they all won't and so we weep over the lost just like any other Christian.

Is Calvinism only around to convert Christian's?

Remember this is not a place to debate Calvinism but just a observance of our Jesus Loving Brother's.

Can Calvinism be a krutch for believer's in reaching the Lost? Speaking of the time and effort our Brothers put into perfecting what "they call" Doctrinal Purity.Trust me I am a Berean, I love Doctrine.I think it is essential but is Calvinism capable of nullying the Commission given to all those who follow Christ?
(honest Question)

Hello brothers and sisters. I've got my "helmet of salvation" on because I've seen the debris flying on this thread and it's bound to smack me too. Please read this with love, it hurts when people respond three seconds after a post to blast the writer, without considering what was written.

There was once a man from Geneva who happened to help popularize a certain theology, some of which I agree with. Unfortunately for me, there is a heavy stigma attached to his name. I have not read his books. What I believe about salvation comes largely from my experiences while coming to faith and reading the word. I believe it as sincerely as you do your beliefs.

My explanation of the so-called "Calvinist View" is this (which I believe to be truth taught in the scriptures):

By Adam sin has come upon all men born of his seed, and this mass of sinful people is worthy of hell. They seek a form of "God", yet not as He is, nor would they ever. Their will is so corrupt that it is, for all practical purposes, not a "will", but a "won't ever want to".

Yet God has taken some from this lump of fallen clay, determining from before time to save them with the power of His grace in Christ. These ones, His elect, He changes in time by circumstances and second causes, and regeneration of the will, so that at last they come freely to Christ for salvation.

All who come are called. All who are called come. No one deserved to be called, all deserved hell.

[b]Why should I weep?[/b]

I weep for lost sinners because I see something of the magnitude of grace shown to myself, that it is free and unmerited, and shows the kindness of God... and what makes me weep about them is they hate this grace. They willfully hate Christ because it is in their power to willfully sin. This makes me weep, because I deserve their same punishment apart from Christ, yet God has loved me freely.

I understand that their refusal and resistance is genuine, that God didn't force these people to hate Him; yet they do and will always unless God interrupts their wickedness with mercy. I do not weep because I want God to save them apart from His plan; I weep because even if I could make them intellectually comprehend grace, they would reject it for works. I weep over sin, not over God's election.

How can I communicate this which makes perfect sense in my head, this which was taught to me, I believe, by the Spirit through the word?

Now, I can easily understand why an Arminian would weep. I used to be one. Back then I wept because I thought that souls perish because the missionaries flopped and the preachers weren't good enough speakers; men didn't pray enough to have the power of the Spirit, so the lost were too confused or too deceived to understand. The damnation of souls is a massive tragedy in the world of the Arminian, a great theological catastrophe where God seems to be begging men, "please, someone help me!" yet few answer His call. Souls perish because God is not powerful enough to convince them to repent.

That is the silliness of it. As a Calvinist, I believe the will of man is in bondage that can only be broken by God. Yet it is no hard thing for God to break the will of man. God simply desires it and it is finished. Somehow in the Arminian view, God has a terribly difficult time bringing someone to repentance. He needs really good preachers and really devoted prayers, or else it doesn't work; no one responds. You say, "we do not depend on man, but on prayer!" For what? For God to "show" a person enough to choose? Why doesn't God "show" everyone? What makes two people different?! The twins, yet being unborn and neither having done good or wrong, yet both being by nature sinful, were discriminated by God; one received justice, the other mercy.

I weep for the lost because they hate God, and no one should hate God. I weep because their sentence gets worse every day and it doesn't have to - even in their fallen state they could pick up a bible and turn from certain sins... they don't have to murder and war and rape and steal... I weep because they love sin.

I weep because when I was an Arminian I thought something in me first chose God.

I am sure brother your Heart is set on Jesus.
I to want to see Jesus Glorified.
I guess it comes back to this question.Does "reformed teaching" have a great tendency to shipwreck us into intelectualism and "Knowledge for growth" based walk.

I spent alot of time studying Calvinism early in my walk,it did not make me more like Jesus.When I got real with setting my theology books aside and reading the Word in expentancy of what Jesus wants to say and not another tool to add to my Flesh.Wow.....
I am kind of retracing my steps....Ya know.

I dont want to see people repent of Calvinism I believe it has its place but can it be a trap for us and a snare the enemy uses to get us to focus on something besides The Simple Truth's in Scripture?

To answer the original question very directly: Calvinists are for reaching the lost, including the ones who think they are saved.

It is inherent in the Calvinist system to believe that anyone who says, "I came to God of my own original ability" has no idea what grace is or what depravity is, and leaves the Calvinist to lovingly suspect false conversion. You can replace the word "Calvinist" with "Michael Spotts" if you want to, because I describe myself. I wan't all of my friends to make their calling and election sure. I want them to know that God saved them because He was gracious, and He determined to do it without regard to who they were, or would be, and I want them to have the joy I have in the grace of Christ. My motives are for the joy and security of those I speak with.

If there is a conference coming up and everyone feels this topic is to heavy maybe we should kill the thread.Sorry I did not put 2 and 2 together. Is there a way to do that?

Moderators you can do that right?

Maybe I can ask these questions and continue then.

-BLUNT

Your premise is always that God forces people to be saved according to the Reformed faith. That is inaccurate and I hope just misinformed. Reformed believers believe that man will not come to God apart from a supernatural change of heart. They will not because they desire not.

why does one have to be born again before one is born again?? here is what i mean. you are saying that a natural man cannot and will not choose Christ without a new heart. the new heart comes by the new birth of being born again. so you believe that one needs to be regenerated before one can be regenerated.

epphesians 2:8 tells us that we are saved by God's grace only after we have used faith (as the vehicle) to receive His grace. then we are saved (born again, made anew, etc)

the bible shows these steps to salvation
1) man places faith in God (faith according to the strong's dictionary means reliance upon Christ [b]for salvation[/b]. so one must not be born again or regenereated if one is hoping for salvation)
2) man receives God's grace (which according to strong's dictionary is the favour, gift, graciousness of God)
3) man is saved (born again, made anew, etc).

do you see that the bible tells us that first we must reach out to God with faith (reliance upon God for salvation/strong's) and receive His grace that will then save us and make us a new creation.

so brother whyme, biblically one cannot be born again to become saved...it just doesn't work out that way.

ps. before you may write back that the natural man would not choose Christ, please know that i agree with you. a man left to himself would not choose Christ. but a natural man who has been drawn by the Holy Spirit and convicted of his sins, may and does sometimes choose Christ. please re-read what i just wrote you and look at ephesians 2 slowly and look at the order of salvation in verse 8 and meditate on it and i believe that it may just change the way you see salvation..

love you brother,
phil

Blunt, thank you for your kind response. I agree that launching into the thick of theology from square-one is like telling a new born to eat steak. It is not only impossible for him to chew, but will probably make him sick!

Yet the scriptures say that it is "good to be established in grace". The doctrines, especially relating to grace, must be cut very small and spoon fed with love and attention by the patient teachers of the word of God.

I am glad that I was not handed the "TULIP" directly, but was given a "baby food" version:

Grace Needed
Grace Promised
Grace Provided
Grace Applied
Grace Fulfilled

We needed grace because man is unqualified, and is by nature hateful of anything that makes light of his works. (Depravity)

God promised to give grace in Christ to His elect from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1 & 2)

Grace was provided on the cross (Hebrews 9:26-28) for many. The worth of Christ was sufficient for all, yet He sprinkles His blood upon those who the Father gives Him so that there will be a demonstration of grace and justice. His grace was promised and will be given with assurance to His people.

Grace is applied as we are drawn from sin to Christ and then given new birth and the seal of the Spirit.

Grace is fulfilled when God preserves His saints. All of God's elect are protected, restored, delivered, and strengthened with such maintenance that none of them fall away entirely. God preserves His children in holiness.

The reason why Paul tells them to make their calling and election sure is because the source of joy and desire for grateful holiness stems from our gratitude to the free grace of God!!

Oh God, how I love you! Yet not enough. They day comes.

Jeannette, thank you for the gracious and civil response, and your testimony. Perhaps I can answer at least one question:

Predestination and freewill are both aspects of Truth, and both present in the Bible, so what's the point of insisting on holding to one or the other?

To my "reformed mind" (by the way, labels like "reformed" can be ugly but they also help us recognize what we're talking about. People who claim to hate the word Calvinism sure do love it when the time comes to define [b]what they aren't[/b]! The word "Reformation" speaks of the major restructuring of the visible Church as it publicly left the Roman Catholic Church in droves. They "re-formed" into organized non-Roman Catholic churches, hence the name. The term "Reformed" is useful in identifying with the major ideas of the time - TULIP, 5 Solas, amongst others.)

Anyways, I will attempt to answer your question, "what's the point of insisting on holding to one or the other, if both are true?"

That's just the problem. I don't think [b]both[/b] are exactly true. I believe that Adam had a will inclined towards good, yet also had the potential to choose evil. After sin, I believe that his will became corrupt and disabled, so much that all a natural man does is tainted with other motives and sins, more than he can perceive.

I believe all men have, by nature, a will that is in bondage to sin. This sin-bondage is not such that they cannot choose between lesser and greater degrees of actual sin, but rather it prevents them from desiring or doing true good - from coming to God on the basis of His righteousness, from departing from themselves and turning to Christ. Their will is enslaved to sin, and thus - though they are responsible to repent - yet they have forfeited the ability to do so.

It is something like a drunkard who crashes his car into a person and kills them. Though the drunk was unable to control himself, yet his inability only aggravates his guilt.

So, in essence, the point is that I believe that "free will" is a false concept, and that "a will in bondage" must be understood in order to appreciate the grace of God in setting us free.

Much love, my sister.

{edit} With the drunkard analogy, one may say, "He chose to drink! I didn't choose to be born in sin!" Adam was our federal head and we have received his nature. That seems tough, yet look how willingly we accept the righteousness of Christ, our new federal head! These work in the same way.