The Time of Japheth's Troubles ...

Yep you read it right ... Japheth's Troubles ... The descendants of those whom He said thru Noah would enlarge and prosper ... And yep it's long, and not for everybody ...

Over on another thread ...

[b]Hugo Chavez & Understanding an Emerging Independent South America (audio) ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19345&forum=48&4

... i posted a set of things i wondered about in connection with the apparent escalating failings, and God's subsequent correction of His apparently majority Laodicean type Church (saints) here in America, and to my surprise our Lord (i believe) thru bro Jeff answered my "wonderings" all out of Amos ...

Amos to me in this context was so striking, and chilling, i believe it worthy of a thread of its own ... The quotes are my wonderings that bro Jeff picked out ... The scriptures are the answers i believe Him led of Holy Spirit to post

Quote:
i think we in the USA have suffered some of our dire reaping during the Civil War, Nam, 9/11, and wonder to what extent our future reaping, in light of all the unGodly seed we as a supposedly Christian nation have continued to sow since will affect us ..

[color=000099]Amos 4:5 Offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven,
Proclaim and announce the freewill offerings;
For this you love,
You children of Israel!”
Says the Lord GOD.
6 “Also I gave you cleanness of teeth in all your cities.
And lack of bread in all your places;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD.
7 “I also withheld rain from you,
When there were still three months to the harvest.
I made it rain on one city,
I withheld rain from another city.
One part was rained upon,
And where it did not rain the part withered.
8 So two or three cities wandered to another city to drink water,
But they were not satisfied;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD.
9 “I blasted you with blight and mildew.
When your gardens increased,
Your vineyards,
Your fig trees,
And your olive trees,
The locust devoured them;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD.
10 “I sent among you a plague after the manner of Egypt;
Your young men I killed with a sword,
Along with your captive horses;
I made the stench of your camps come up into your nostrils;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD.
11 “I overthrew some of you,
As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,
And you were like a firebrand plucked from the burning;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD.[/color]

Quote:
i also wonder if both European inspired World Wars were more a direct result of the type of apparent hypocritical Christianity practiced amongst themselves and toward percieved lesser people than themselves, a reaping of what was sown ... So called Christian Great Britain has an atrocious history of it's treatment of others, as does the USA,

[color=000099]Amos 4:

4 Hear this, you who swallow up the needy,
And make the poor of the land fail,

Amos 8:5 Saying:
“When will the New Moon be past,
That we may sell grain?
And the Sabbath,
That we may trade wheat?
Making the ephah small and the shekel large,
Falsifying the scales by deceit,
6 That we may buy the poor for silver,
And the needy for a pair of sandals—
Even sell the bad wheat?”
7 The LORD has sworn by the pride of Jacob:
“Surely I will never forget any of their works.[/color]

Quote:
Whod'a ever thunk it that so rich a nation, would now be the largest debtor nation forced to send emissaries to China in attempts of getting them to continue to buy our debt ... This all reminds me of the scripture
in the Revelation that says, "He who leadeth into captivity, shall be led into captivity" ...

[color=000099]Amos 3:11 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:
“An adversary shall be all around the land;
He shall sap your strength from you,
And your palaces shall be plundered.”[/color]

Quote:
You'd think so called Christian Western nations would understand that reaping what is sown, and one can't serve God and money, are sermons Jesus directly preached - but i guess it's a losing battle when
folk try to juggle the rules of Providence with the attaining of prosperity too .

[color=000099]Amos 2:6 Thus says the LORD:
“For three transgressions of Israel, and for four,
I will not turn away its punishment,
Because they sell the righteous for silver,
And the poor for a pair of sandals.
7 They pant after the dust of the earth which is on the head of the poor,
And pervert the way of the humble.
A man and his father go in to the same girl,
To defile My holy name.
8 They lie down by every altar on clothes taken in pledge,
And drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.

Amos 5:20 Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
21 “I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
22 Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
23 Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.
24 But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream.[/color]

Quote:
Blessings in Christ Jesus who is able to forgive us of ALL our sins, and clense us from ALL unrighteousness - if we'd only REPENT! ...

[color=000099]Amos 9:

8 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;
Yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,”
Says the LORD.[/color]

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff

--- You know if it were not for SI i would have never known about the truly great moves (Revivals), and men of God, that have come out of Western Europe, particularly in Britain, seemingly lesser in the U.S., tho we too have had our great Godly men, and Revivals ... i point this out because history seems to show me that tho the initial carriers of the Gospel were all of Shemitic descent, eventually the main, majority, and mighty vessels and purveyors of the Gospel came to be those of Japhethic descent, expanding everywhere, and anywhere they enlarged ...

Now before anyone can take offense, my following observations are not based on, nor directed at true "remnant Christians", but of those other Christians, the ones that have, and still are, tho professing Christ, abusing Christianity in tandem with self seeking personal power, purpose & prosperity ... The ones that give Christ, and Christianity, a bad name ... The ones that practise abominations, in the name of God, and subsequently bring down upon themselves [color=FF0000](***and the quiet remnant) [/color] God's correcting hand ... After all they seem to be the ones who have left the biggest imprint on the world, one definitely not glorifying to Jesus, and now those lesser people seem to be really reacting negatively to the West - particularly to the U.S. ...

[b]CHRISTIANITY: Abused for Power, Personal Purpose & Prosperity ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14398&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go

As a Hamite (Af/Am) saved by grace and from all the historical bitterness i once had against ALL things Japhethic (white folk as i once lumped them), what always stuck out to me before about Western Europeans, the British in particular, and subsequently America, was their amazingly prideful audacity to actually think themselves better than one another and collectively better than the descendants of Shem and Ham, to the point of overtly showing it by really riding rough shod and abusive over such percieved lesser human beings (if seen as human beings at all) as history avows, all in the name of "priveledged lineage", "might makes right", and then (really adding insult to injury) in the name of "Christianity and a God given mandate" ... True the rich and powerful of Europe and America took advantage of all in their path including their own poor, but they seemed to have gone way out of their way in exploiting the lands, natural resources, and peoples of other groups, even to the point of indoctrinating their own peoples with "hey you may be poor, but at least you're white (Japhethic) and not a Jesus killing Jew, or thieving Arab (both Semites), or God forbid at worst a sub-human negro (Hamite) ... i shudder at the thought of how long it took, and what it took, in the U.S. for Bible believeing Christ professing folk of European descent to even allow other folk of percieved lesser linages to even worship/fellowship with them ... Truth be told much of the Body of Christ in the U.S. still has racial division - amongst all the other divisions we still have ...

There's so much in today's news about the demise of the West, and it's waning sphere of influence ... Brits crying about the loss of their nationhood to the EU ... Europeans, and American's of European descent becoming increasingly afraid of the rise of those once lesser people, Arabs and Asians in particular, while Africans (except for African Americans) are still pretty much a docile people on the world scene ... Pat Bucchanan wrote in a recent book that America is in decline because of its lessening of people of Japhethic descent, and it's increase of folk from the lesser people ... i don't think its ever crossed his mind that the problem is moreso rooted in America's hypocritical practices as a professed Christian nation, the bastion of freedom, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, at the expense of the "lesser" people ... There once was a time when American's of Hamitic descent could largely exclude ourselves from such blame, not anymore, because post integration black folk have been on a tear to catch up on every ill the larger society has to offer, and in fact have made a few un-Godly contributions that in retro-spect makes me think we were more spiritually healthy under segregation ...

After bro Jeff's posting from Amos it came to mind how we often speak of "Jacob's Troubles" ...

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. — Jeremiah 30:7

As bro Jeff's postings out of Amos seem so chillingly apropos to Jacob's failings in God's eyes, i think that Jeremiah's future prophecy of Jacob's Trouble will be preceeded by Japheth's Troubles, and for much of the same reasons: lip service to God while at the same time living profane ...

[color=FF0000]*** i put in brackets (the quiet remnant) as a direct jab at any of us who might think ourselves better than other more worldlier saints (the majority that brings down God's correction) because we have not bowed our knee to Baal, but the true question is "why haven't we opened up our mouths in protest for God"? ... As in Elijah's case, how come God knew he had 700 remnant, but the man of God, the rest of the nation, and subsequently Ahab & Jezebel didn't, and therefore Elijah thought himself alone? ... What's the old saying? ... "Silence gives consent" --- [/color]

bro Rahman Greetings in Jesus' Name by WHose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

whatever it was our father Ham did to Noah put us his children in a terrible place...all the same what Satan meant for evil God has determined it for Good!

[b]22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.[/b]

it seems he did more than just look on his father's nakedness since Noah "saw" what he had done. from that point on, Ham had issues...from Ham came Cush and from Cush Nimrod of the Tower of Babel fame...our initital encounter with God as children of Ham was in rebellion, first to Noah as father (well this is really a symptom of rebelling against God) and then the whole issue of the Tower of Babel and what that stood for...that rebellion spilled over throughout the generations and evidences itself even today.

i like you bro Bless God for Jesus Christ by Whose Blood that curse has been broken and under which, before God we are all equal.AMEN.

before our previous discussions on these matters, i would not have considered that the main people furthering the gospel were sons of Japheth. as i remember some of the history i learned about Africa and its conquest by Europe, i see how the Gospel was used for gain and is still so used. i see also however a Judgment on Africa for her iniquities also coming through Japheth and interestingly enough, the Gospel as Redemption. As we have found with those nations/peoples which God uses against others, there is a tendancy to overstep the bounds of Judgment and go overboard. Then those peoples are themselves brought low as i believe is happening to Japheth now. The chickens have come home to roost and we are about to get pushed into one another as believers to an Acts 2 fellowship of community. it seems to me there are some things which God hasn't fully dealt with us about but will do so shortly in what i believe even more firmly is about to hit us here in America. of course this will have repurcussions which will be felt the world over. Much of what we know as America has been built on exploitation of one people or another. Sure the consitution says all men are created equal...yet some of those men owned slaves...they may well have treated them well but that isn't the issue. There is a blueprint on how to handle slaves in the O.T. which was violated in many ways. Then there is the issue of separation of Church and State which allowed men to do as they pleased and not feel like they can be held accountable for ungodliness in conduct as long as progress was made. All the while professing Faith. this is the same thing the Prophets of Israel lamented and preached against all those years. This is the same thing we who are called to this same work now preach against with much the same result. The same spirit which was on Israel in those days is upon the world today hence the guilt of the same sins and the same stubborn refusal to repent and so the result of this will be the same, Judgment.

i have tried to share this with some saints at Church and when i got to the bit of exploitation and Church and state, clearly nobody wanted to hear some young African blaspheme his nation so i was shut up. it seems this jaded view is quite pervasive but in short order, we'll be made to see aright!
On the one hand i look forward to it because the fire will burn off dross (those who profess to be saints but are not) but at the same time, i dread it because we the True Saints will also suffer through it.

so far Shem and Japheth have carried the Gospel. Japheth hasn't made Shem Jealous so as to repent and find Salvation in Jesus; this being because Shem isn't so prone to being deceived by the ruse/sham of Japheth. Shem sees through it and has seen what Japheth has done the world over in the Name of God but for personal gain and growth...this now leaves but 1 son, Ham. being the youngest, nothing much was expected of him. His disrespect for father brought down a terrible curse on him to be slaves unto his brethren which has proven to be true. after all that, who can be a better candidate than Ham to make Shem jealous as to be Saved and Japheth repent also of his abuse of what was given him?i don't think Shem thinks much of Ham...Japeth for sure doesn't...it would be like God to use the base to upset the esteemed and weak to undo the strong and the foolish to upset the wise...Shem wouldn't think Ham capable of carrying the Gospel and Japheth may expect Ham to retaliate for previous injustices but i believe God has broken Ham down such that he knows better and will do better.

this is the bottom of the ninth and Ham is up to bat...Here we go...hope you have your helmet on bro...;-)

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro Ironman you wrote;

"whatever it was our father Ham did to Noah put us his children in a terrible place ... it seems he did more than just look on his father's nakedness since Noah "saw" what he had done."

[color=0000CC]--- Actually the scripture says Noah awoke from his wine, and KNEW what his younger son had done unto him ... which by my estimation is exactly what the scripture points to, that he looked upon the compromising position of his Dad and instead of having proper honor for Noah and covering him up in love and respect to not even mention the occurence, he instead went out and put it on full blast as something humorous ... Bad move ... i know there are some who wanna paint Ham as a sexual deviant who may have done something homosexual to his Dad - i personally don't buy that --- [/color]

bro Ironman you wrote;
"from that point on, Ham had issues... i like you bro Bless God for Jesus Christ by Whose Blood that curse has been broken and under which, before God we are all equal. AMEN."

[color=0000CC]--- Amen ... which was touched on the thread; [/color]

[b]Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11893&forum=48#94604

bro Ironman you wrote;
"before our previous discussions on these matters, i would not have considered that the main people furthering the gospel were sons of Japheth."

[color=0000CC]---Amen ... history shows it ... the beauty and the horrors --- [/color]

bro Ironman you wrote;
"as i remember some of the history i learned about Africa and its conquest by Europe, i see how the Gospel was used for gain and is still so used. i see also however a Judgment on Africa for her iniquities also coming through Japheth and interestingly enough, the Gospel as Redemption. As we have found with those nations/peoples which God uses against others, there is a tendancy to overstep the bounds of Judgment and go overboard. Then those peoples are themselves brought low as i believe is happening to Japheth now. "

[color=0000CC]--- i seem to have some understanding of what you said when it comes to Him using nations against Israel (the people He attached His name to), but when it comes to His using gentile nations against gentile nations honestly i often come to a loss as to really "why" ... i begin to wonder is it really Him orchestrating such national demises because it's the heathens job to rage, or is it moreso the fact of reaping and sowing, as in if you attack me you'd better wipe me out completely because i'll be living for satanically inspired revenge (you know as ALL ethnic groups seem to do amongst themselves, and outward toward others) ... But what i do suspect, as came to be in much of the case of Japheth, is that when a people/nation attaches His name, and Gospel to themselves then that throws His "correction" factor into it because to claim Christ means that we're claiming to be His, which puts us under His mandates and restrictions, which i think was harder for Japheth because such mandates rule against how one can expand and prosper ... If Christ's golden rule was applied in earnest, much of Japheth's horrible history toward others would have never happened, or at least be greatly minimized ... Faith in Christ is supposed to change us ... As i said before, i don't think God corrects a nation because it's supposedly Christian, but because it's a nation primarily filled with Christians, as i believe in spite of its ugly history was Europe (especially western, and especially Britain), and now America ... Today i believe the majority of Europe has totally abandoned God, Britain is just about at it's last gasps if not breathing so shallow breath can't even be detected, and America tho still perpetrating a form of Godly devotion is Laodicean blind - but i don't think that God is finished with us because we're not really finished with Him - there are more interceeding saints than meet the eye that are howling towards heaven to not let us go as far as Europe has gone ...

One thing i love about being in Christ is that He frees one from being in bondage to all the history, and everyday occurences, of mans inhumanity to man ... From a strictly Christian world view i can spectate on things and see exactly how the devil keeps us at one anothers throats, especially from a racial/ethnic point of view ... i look and i see "the white man" decended from Japheth with the blessing/curse of enlargement and prosperity, "the black man" decended from Ham with a chip on his shoulder to make a shem (name) for himself, "the olive man" decended from Shem (one a chosen people, the other a step-child), "the yellow man" (argued back and forth to either of Shem or Ham), the mixtures that make up "the red man" and "the brown man" ... And what does AD. history show us? ... "The (Catholic) white man" waging Crusade on "the olive man" ... "The (Catholic & Protestant) white man" colonizing, subjugating, exploiting, enslaving, and commiting genocide on all "the other men", and over a period of time one begins to see the history of hatred developing from all "the other men" toward "the white man", and not only of him but also of his Christian religion, this is what i think irratates God to: ENOUGH! ... Tho God's getting fed up sure takes a long time, and is why i know men think Him slow, and also why it's so hard to leave vengence up to Him ... One of the many strange things i find about God is that He seems seldom (especially when it comes to national sins) to vent the vengence on the perps in the time period it done, it's always way down the pike somewhere visited on the ancestors ... Who can figure God's ways? ....

Bottom line tho is Japheth has enjoyed over millenia a priviledged position of dominating the world, and calling the shots over all "the other men" ... That's no longer the case in Western Europe as the EU seems to be only interested in staying viable by the continued making of money, and will do business with anyone they can get away with, especially so being finally discarded of God and Christianity Catholic and Protestant, being convinced it seems that it was religion, and not their own self seeking, that caused their wars ... So i believe it's primarily here in the good ole Christian U.S. that Japheth's (the white mans) time of trouble is really gonna be experienced to the fullest ... Those who have and enjoy the most are the ones who will have the worst experience in the correction, and because of that i do have some concern as to how this will affect so many of our brothers and sisters of Japhethic lineage ... Our leadership, and the majority baby boomers, have not known "dependency" on one another, let alone being reduced to the economic level of the percieved "lessers" in our society ... Our government is in a war in Iraq in attempts of keeping the status quo, but failing ... "The olive man (OPEC) has us by the gas tank and home heating ... Our government is sending emissaries to "the yellow man" (China) in attempts to keep them footing our debt, "the (little crazy) yellow man" in North Korea is giving us grief, "the brown man (Chavez)" is testing U.S. hegemony, our stock market is on the brink, our derivative packages are blowing up, media keeps talking like it's only poor folks losing their homes, and it's only God's extended grace that we've not woken up to "anarchy" in the streets yet ... [/color]

bro Ironman you wrote;
"The chickens have come home to roost and we are about to get pushed into one another as believers to an Acts 2 fellowship of community."

[color=0000CC]--- Amen, i believe this too, which is why i've been asking saints to ask themselves some tough questions now, particularly in light of "the great falling away" ... The bottom line for me has become that if we're anything but Christian first in every aspect of ourselves the "correction" is gonna stress us and strain us way more than necessary, and both race and class will be a factor in the equation ... For instance are you a "black-Christian" or a "Christian who happens to be black"? ... Are you a "white-Christian" or a "Christian who happens to be white"? ... A Jewish Christian? ... etc ... We can ask the same thing regarding any race or class ... We can ask ourselves how we see others, especially within the faith, is it from a Christian perspective or moreso a predjudiced ethnic or social standing position ... What would i do if i suddenly found myself having to depend, share, fellowship, in and out of the faith, with others i've not comfortable in being around in the past ... i know myself how many times i have to remind Af/Am saints about the dangers
of still viewing "other men" thru the eyes of carnal predjudices, and i wonder how many brethren of other races within their own ethnic groups have to do the same ...

i believe to be forced into an Acts 2 fellowship community will be strain enuf for saints of similar ethnicity, let alone a mixing, but i also believe that if we're all of the right heart and spirit set, that of Christ, we could easily transition into no difference between Jew nor Gentile, black nor white, bond nor free, high brow nor low ... but all one in Christ as joint heirs ... i believe the correction will do much in eleminating the dross. removing the spots, and ironing out the wrinkles in the now heavily blemished Church of Jesus Christ --- [/color]

bro Ironman you wrote;
"so far Shem and Japheth have carried the Gospel. Japheth hasn't made Shem Jealous so as to repent and find Salvation in Jesus; this being because Shem isn't so prone to being deceived by the ruse/sham of Japheth. Shem sees through it and has seen what Japheth has done the world over in the Name of God but for personal gain and growth"

[color=0000CC]--- Amen ... again that painful history ... but then too is Romans 11 which knocks things so far out of the ball park regarding the relationship between God and Israel i leave that alone ... But it's obvious that even saved Jews are still reactive to that history --- [/color]

bro Ironman you wrote;
"this now leaves but 1 son, Ham. His disrespect for father brought down a terrible curse on him to be slaves unto his brethren which has proven to be true. after all that, who can be a better candidate than Ham to make Shem jealous as to be Saved and Japheth repent also of his abuse of what was given him? i don't think Shem thinks much of Ham ... Japeth for sure doesn't ... it would be like God to use the base to upset the esteemed and weak to undo the strong and the foolish to upset the wise ... Shem wouldn't think Ham capable of carrying the Gospel and Japheth may expect Ham to retaliate for previous injustices but i believe God has broken Ham down such that he knows better and will do better.

this is the bottom of the ninth and Ham is up to bat ... Here we go ... hope you have your helmet on bro..."

[color=0000CC]--- First in clarrification, the curse of slavery was on Canaan and his seed, not that of Ham ... The same reasoning was used by some Christian slave traders to justify the slave trade ...

Amen it would be like God to use the base ... You know in our talks prior regarding the Hamite and a turn at primary stewardship of carrying the Gospel, i told you i'd heard something prophecied to that effect, but if that prophecy be true God has yet to fulfil it - but if He does in fact in these last days give the descendants of Noah's irreverant younger son a turn at bat i pray we carry it a lot cleaner and freer of worldly pursuits ... As i also said, if it be so and God lets me be of any assistance it would be to constantly warn, "When in choice of keeping 70% of anything and giving away 30%, give away the 70%" ... This is something i think i've already failed at, and will rectify as God gives me further chance" ...

But i am at any rate glad to hear of how the Gospel is spreading in Africa (sans that hellified "prosperity" one) ... And while i don't know for sure why "God has broken Ham down" i sure pray that out of it we've become "better and will do better" ... Perhaps this may more apply to Hamites in the mother-land, because we American descendants seem to be totally out of control ...

Whatever God does, to Him be ALL the glory ...

Blessings in Jesus who loves us ALL equally :-D- even when we don't :-o --- [/color]

This is some heavy hitting stuff and I see not a whole lot of people have ventured to join in on this discussion. I just pray that by the grace of God whoever reads this post may have their eyes opened and their ears opened that they may see the truth and hear the truth. It is easy to dismiss these as the rantings of 2 over the top black people but what if it is true. I pray that the Lord soften all our hearts that we may be in alignement with Him and hear what He is saying to us.

Sis S you wrote;
"This is some heavy hitting stuff and I see not a whole lot of people have ventured to join in on this discussion. I just pray that by the grace of God whoever reads this post may have their eyes opened and their ears opened that they may see the truth and hear the truth. It is easy to dismiss these as the rantings of 2 over the top black people but what if it is true. I pray that the Lord soften all our hearts that we may be in alignement with Him and hear what He is saying to us."

--- Amen, and with the addition of your comment it could now be seen "as the rantings of 3 over the top black people" ... :-P

But all joking aside let me again state, i praise God that He has saved me, and freed me, from being "black" first to "Christian" first in every outlook/world view ... Let me also say that i don't think (at least i pray not) that those on SI who read this thread dismiss it as the rantings of an over the top black man (i've made clear my motivation) ...

Race, class, and how they affect us all, even after salvation, are subjects not broached by many in the Body ... There are no discussions on the whys, wherefores, and how has mankind become as it has toward one another ... Why does one group perhaps feel superior, and others perhaps inferior? ... Why has one group expanded, and prospered all over the world, at the expense of other groups? ... What has been the effect on us personally as members of specific races, and classes, prior to salvation, and has Christ indwelling changed us in ways for the better, or are we still overtly and/or covertly operating out of our old nature in these areas, instead of the new? ... The world may be content to go on in business as usual regarding the racial and class baggage we may have been ethnically and socio-economically born into, but we as Christians can not afford to continue therein ...

i'm finding that most of the directions of insights our Lord takes me in puts me at odds with most folk, saved and unsaved, but it's the saved that He has me at most primary concern ... You'd be surprised at how many saints (Japhethic and Hamitic primarily) who balk at the fact that i quote Noah's blessing of "enlargement and prosperity" on Japheth and the spiritual import of just what it meant his blessing being corraled by the tents of Shem ... Many saints can't even begin to fathom the importance of the future implications of ...

[b]Gen.9[/b]
[24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
[25] And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

((( As a side note: Gen. 9:27 blows to smitterens The Nation of Islam's tenet that the reason 'the white man" has everything is because he's a blue eyed devil ... According to scripture the devil ain't got nothing to do with Japheth's enlargement ... It's a point that really irks them, if you can get a word in edge-wise)))

i personally believe that this scripture set the tone of the continuation of the history of mankind after the Flood, that Shem and his lineage would become the God (and His mandates) carrying people, that Japheth would become the people who'd eventually spread out and prosper everywhere, but also with the burr in his saddle knowledge that his blessing was to be excercised in the confines of Godly mandates, and that Ham, Noah's youngest son, with the irreverant attitude and chip on his shoulder particularly after the cursing of his son Canaan to slavery, would be father of the line which birthed Nimrod, the first man to decide to become a mighty one in the earth against God, to the point of gathering together people to make a name (shem) of his own, and build the tower of Babel as a personal affront to God ... i believe that if Gen. 9: 24-27 wasn't important then, and now, God wouldn't have written it down for us to read ...

i believe that even after millenia there are things from Noah's decree that still affect us as people & nations today, and the only sure way of properly handling these blessings, and escaping the curses, is to accept the Lord Jesus Christ and His way, which could in potential continue the blessing of Shem's descendants out of the OT into the NT, the blessing of Japheth's descendants into proper alignment within the tent (the stewardship laws) of Jesus Christ, and the ridding of Ham's descendants from whatever the still apparent curses manifested in the horrors of Africa ...

Now of the three lineages, after the acceptance of Christ, i do believe He is showing me that the descendants of Japheth have done more to spread, but also hinder (especially now in our day and time), the name of Christ, and His TRUE Gospel ... The reason being the "at odds with one another" that comes into play with attempting to balance "the pursuit of profane expansion and perpetual prosperity" as we do here in America with "the profound constraints of Jesus and His teachings" ... i believe this to be a special dilema for the descendants of Japheth, in times past especially those of Western European descent, specifically the English, and subsequently the greatest propspering nation of all time America herself ... While Christ was/is embraced, His ways, laws and mandates, especially His golden rule, has been bent, stretched, warped, and broken in pursuit of material expansion, and so much so in the U.S. that our un-Godliness in "greed" has already infected, and is about to disatrously affect, the entire planet ary economy...

Out of what people/nation came forth the hellified "prosperity gospel"? ... Out of what people/nation came the bright idea to marry the profound Messianic theme with the profane American dream? ... Out of waht people/nation could such "another gospel" even be concieved, swallowed, packaged, and then sold for consumption to the Body globally? ... The answer: Japheth & America ... And Hamites in America, tho getting involved later in the game, seem to have fallen hard for it, hook, line and sinker ... We got Creflo, Eddie Long, Jakes, other less known desoerate scramblers, and just this morning i ran across K.C. Price attempting to scripturally justify his being able to chose between his all paid for Benz and two Bentleys as to which one he'd drive, to an array of amens from a jam packed mega-church audience ... Then on to my own pastor this morning continuing his theme of "This Is Our Year", with references to benefit of blessings from God material and health ... i remember just 30 years ago when the flamboyant money centered Hamite Rev. Ike was ridiculed by the black clergy in America, now most are carbon copies tho with a smoother Christ laced message of get that dollar ... It's amazing to me how many of "the other men", saved and unsaved alike, profess such a disdain and hatred for America and "the white man", when in essence i see it more a jealousy of not having, or being able to attain, what "the white man" particularly in America has, for as soon as the "haters" get the chance, they go whole hog for the very things they say they hate ... That's why i say that if in fact God will give the decendants of Ham an opportunity to carry the Gospel, especially in provoking the Jew to jealousy, they'd have to be from Africa itself, because Hamites in the U.S. may yet still be able to be identified as such by skin color, but the mindset and treasure of the heart is in envy and attainment of Japheth's blessing-not Christ's ... Thus the urban call and response: How you livin? ... I'm livin large!

America sets the standard, carnally and spiritually ... and the world follows ... In America we are at the time of Japheth's Troubles (thus the troubles for all the other minorities too-including the silent remnant), and who amongst God's people here as Christians first, regardless of what race, creed, color or class, will point out to one another the errors of our ways, and why we now find ourselves in His correction ... Yeah its a hard thing to do, and not popular at all - but somebody's got to point out error toward our repentance and restoration ---

HE_Reigns you wrote;
"My theory has always been that the slaves in the south, that got saved and knew Christ - knew Him out of and in desperate times of persecution. No matter what race a people may be, during persecution or hardships, whether Chinese, Indian, Malaysian, whatever - they come out as 'more on fire' Christians. There's nothing like hardships and mistreatment that bring out the best in Christians.

Well, my theory has been, the "Bible Belt" has been what it is called, because of the Black Christians who suffered there. So does anyone have any good history books to prove or disprove my theory?"

--- i knew the term "Bible Belt" refered to the South, but i've never suspected it to be linked to Negroes since the majority of America's history links nothing of any importance to Negro contribution, and it was a while before i new American Negroes had done anything in the U.S. other than play bafoons, servants, and natives in Tarzan movies ...

Anyhow i did some checking on the Bible Belt and found out that the term was actually coined in 1920, at a time having nothing to do with the faith of the Af-Am's, but all to do with the faith of whites in the cruely segregated south, tho today it may include Af/Am saints ...

[b]THE BIBLE BELT[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Belt

i'm glad you brought up the point tho because it was the Bible Belts white Christians (not all but way to many) we see in the news footage of the Civil Rights era giving black people (most of them Christians), pure-t-hell ... Again claiming Christ, but surely not acting like Him ... i was always amazed that the KKK concidered itself a good Christian orginization, and it's members good saints who terrified people to keep them scared into keeping "their place" ... And actually the North was only slightly better, their discrimination more covertly psychological ... When i reflect on those times i can only imagine the real white saints back then were the abolitionist, and the ones that spoke up and told their fellow Church folk, and the greater society that what was going on in this country, in the name of God, was straight up wrong ... i bet a lot of white Christians during that time would liked to have spoken against the evil, but fear in one way or the other kept them silent ... Then their were those believers like Washington and Jefferson who knew that slavery was wrong, but neccessary to the American economy so that they could be free from the tyranny of England ...

You mentioned the hardship of slavery bringing the black man to Jesus, and actually clinging to Him really ... To this day i still don't understand how it was at all possible for any enslaved Hamite in America to ever accept the same Jesus Christ of their wicked masters as their own personal Savior ... i find it hard to believe that i could have (Nat Turner used to be my hero), and think it must have had a whole lot to do with the pre-destination and calling of Romans 9 - but what a way to have to get to Christ ... Why, only God knows and i leave that up to Him, thankful that i wasn't born in 1750, or 1850, but am glad that somehow my ancestors latched onto Jesus, and opened up a way where it was easier for me to do also ... One of many things that really concern me about the Body of Christ in America, now that we're all in the 21st century, is why even amongst saints more learned today, there's still much suspicion, separation, predjudice, and ill feelings racially, less overtly yet still covertly, between saints of different ethnicities, and classes, particularly black and white ...

[color=CC0000]Racial and class predjudice seems to come so easy ... i believe it's based in that same satanic delusion of feeling superior ... As a white Christian how do you really feel about Blacks? ... Why? ... As a Black Christian how do you really feel about Whites? ... Why? ... As a home grown American Christian how do you feel about the foriegn people who seem to be popping up everywhere these days ... Does it irk you? ... Why? ... Does it make you feel threatened? ... Why? ... Do you wish you could pack up the lot of them and send them all back where they came from? ... Why? ... [/color] i know of myself my living in an area being completely overtaken by Asians, i sometimes have to check myself in my reaction as an American of getting tired of hearing them speak in languages i don't understand, or smelling foods so exotic to my nose that i don't like it, but i've had a few occasions of meeting some of my Asian neighbors and finding out they're Christians, and it instantly changes my whole outlook to love, instead of disdain, or irateness ... [color=CC0000]i think that once we become Christians, and understand the Word, and are filled with the love/Spirit of Christ we are supposed to become changed and should not only have such love for our brethren no matter what color or class, but the same for all our fellowmen ...[/color] i certainly am not perfect in this, but i believe Holy Spirit makes me aware to the point of repentance when i find myself lowering the status of my fellowman for whatever the reason ... When we as God's children don't check ourselves, it may take Him a long time but eventually He'll check us Himself, and usually by the time He does folk of today seem to have to pay for ugly things done by folk long dead ... That's another thing that baffles the smack out of me about God ...

Tho i'm one prone to wonder i praise Him that He's long since cured me of my having to understand His ways to remain faithful ... What i don't know i don't know, but what i do know is i'm susposed to strive toward the mark of the higher calling everyday, the attaining of which seems so hard on us, but He calls it our reasonable service ...

Blessings in He who gives His willing servants the ability to walk on waters we once were drowning in ---

True and even when I was six I knew the theory of evolution was wrong... I would think to myself, "If we are the evolved ones where are the half done ones?"

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro R you said:

--- i seem to have some understanding of what you said when it comes to Him using nations against Israel (the people He attached His name to), but when it comes to His using gentile nations against gentile nations honestly i often come to a loss as to really "why" ... i begin to wonder is it really Him orchestrating such national demises because it's the heathens job to rage, or is it moreso the fact of reaping and sowing, as in if you attack me you'd better wipe me out completely because i'll be living for satanically inspired revenge (you know as ALL ethnic groups seem to do amongst themselves, and outward toward others) ... But what i do suspect, as came to be in much of the case of Japheth, is that when a people/nation attaches His name, and Gospel to themselves then that throws His "correction" factor into it because to claim Christ means that we're claiming to be His, which puts us under His mandates and restrictions, which i think was harder for Japheth because such mandates rule against how one can expand and prosper ... If Christ's golden rule was applied in earnest, much of Japheth's horrible history toward others would have never happened, or at least be greatly minimized ... Faith in Christ is supposed to change us ... As i said before, i don't think God corrects a nation because it's supposedly Christian, but because it's a nation primarily filled with Christians, as i believe in spite of its ugly history was Europe (especially western, and especially Britain), and now America ... Today i believe the majority of Europe has totally abandoned God, Britain is just about at it's last gasps if not breathing so shallow breath can't even be detected, and America tho still perpetrating a form of Godly devotion is Laodicean blind - but i don't think that God is finished with us because we're not really finished with Him - there are more interceeding saints than meet the eye that are howling towards heaven to not let us go as far as Europe has gone ...

indeed i have heard people speak of Ham as a homosexual and that what Noah knew he did was of such a nature. the word doesn't expound on it so men speculate. i don't buy that either.

anyhow as it pertains to the heathen nations rising and falling, i believe God showed me something concerning this from the book of Daniel:

from chapt 10

[b]12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
[/b]

Gabriel is resisted by the prince of Persia which is a principality which exercises influence over the affairs of that nation. He would not let Gabriel pass through with the message. there are protocols which are followed and go on behind the scenes when angels come and go especially to bring Ministry from heaven to God's people in a heathen land and so Gabriel came to we can liken to an embassy and was denied access to Daniel for a time because of the authority of the prince of Persia. all the same God send Michael to put a stop to that nonsense...

anyhow Gabriel then says this:

[b]20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.[/b]

Gabriel had been contending with the prince of Persia to protect Cyrus since it was Cyrus who was stirred up by God to send the Jews home. Now he says the prince of Greece shall come when he leaves. this is in line with the previous visions which Daniel had in which he saw the succession of the kingdoms from babylon through to the roman empire. The coming of the prince of Greece signified the deafeat of Persia at the hands of Greece. in the ranks of the principalities which are the fallen angels which haven't been abyssed, there is contention, strife and struggle for power. we see this in the natural as the raging of the heathen nations against the people of God and also against eachother. The minions of the enemy are not united in the same sense that we are in Christ but they are united by the drive to cause God as much grief as possible by wreaking havoc among men. so on the one hand it is something of a reaping of what has been sown in terms of the wickedness of the heathen nations at and the agent to bring this judgment is the principality inciting the leaders of the nations to rise up against one another.

now for those nations which claim the Faith, like you said, there is a Correction factor which comes with that...sadly most saints don't think God deals with sin in the same way as He did in the O.T. He said that He changes not so we are in for a rude awakening...now if the nation is full of Christians and there is rampant wickedness, that means the saints aren't carrying the Torch as they ought. if there are Christians in business, there ought not to be any news of fraud or impropriety of any kind because that is not our way or it ought not to be. That as much wickedness came out of the British Empire and America even with the association with the Faith says that concerning some things, the Faith wasn't factored in so as to affect the conduct of these men.

indeed it is a blessed thing to see things from the Christ's Perspective because the every day beefs and such have a meaning to them in that it is all part of God's Plan somehow rather than random events as some think. i was reading in the Lamentations something about how God sometimes waits to deal with national sins till later...from Lamentations 5:

[b]7Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities. [/b]

it seems we will be the recepients of the Judgments for the many wickednesses of old along with our own...from talking to some of our brethren who are of the line of Japheth, especially at church where our Lord has been having me speak about this for the last couple of weeks, it seems they don't want to hear it for the most part. it doesn't compute perhaps but it shall be a humbling experience for us all to be pushed into community...especially for those who never knew what that was like.

indeed men have used that curse on Canaan to justify slavery...yet they didn't read the bit in deuteronomy about how to treat one's slaves...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

HE_Reigns you wrote;
"Thank you Rahman. I took your site and went into a bit more investigating and Hey - I still hold to my theory. :-p"

--- Amen ... There's an old adage, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" ... So let me not continue to come at your theory with the hard cold facts of American history --- :-P

This thread in generality is about the negative national, ethnic and class baggage all of us are borne into, learn and carry, that oft isn't even eliminated when we come to Jesus, and they should be under the mandate that anyone who comes to Christ is a new creation, the former, or old nature/man crucified with Christ ...

This thread in specific is about the descendants of Japheth, those who for the most part enjoy a status in the world uncommon to most other ethnic groups/nations, those who primarily claim Christianity, those commonly refered to by all other colors of men as "the white man", those who by God's decree via Noah's blessing were destined to enlarge, expand, and prosper, and the major responsibility that places on such especially in regards to the representation of Christ and Christianity (to whom much is given, much is required) ... This thread is particularly about what the sons of Japheth did after becoming Christians, and the primary carriers and stewards of the Gospel, which hard cold history also attests to because everywhere they went the Gospel went also ... But what this thread is mainly about is why didn't the violent and apparent conquering behavior of the sons of Japheth wane after becoming Christians, and even so maybe less blatant today continue from so-called Christian nations in the butting in on the affairs of "the other men" of other nations, including assasinations ... How does a Christian nation/state/group/individual justify exploitation of another in any form to the attainment of illicit enlargement and prosperity if it truly follows the principals of Christ ... Jesus says, "Give and it shall be given unto you - not take all that you want because you have an upper hand" ...

i totally understand the ruthlessness of any heathen nation in it's inhumanity to thier fellow men, i expect nothing different say out of Godless Russia and China, or any of the other nations that follow false gods, so the Roman Empire before alledgedly officially adopting both Christ and Christianity i can understand their brutality, but not so afterwards, the same with all the other so called Christian European Empires, particularly of Western Europe, and in particular the English who seem to have filtered out to becoming the creme-de-la-creme of the line of Japheth ... Why didn't the savagery of a conquering spirit discontinue? ... Why didn't they radically change? ... If they had do you think we'd have a less violent and dangerous world than the one we're now living in? ... And most important where were the everyday grass roots Christian voices/churches/denominations railing against what their government, armies, and soldiers of fortune of their supposedly Christian nation/countrymen were up to? ... History shows that there were a few outspoken saints, but what of the majority? ... Seems they like many here in America yesterday and today either silently absolved themselves of it, calling it God's will and leaving all up to Him, or were as most silently benefiting from the ugly status quo ... i think there are a lot of Christians in America who dismiss ourselves from any personal responsibility regarding the atrocities and woes of the U.S., just as many separate ourselves from the Body as being some other entity called "the remnant", when the bottom line is we're all members and participants of our nation, and of a Church that according to Rev. chapters 2 & 3 is capable of being spiritually sick, and the church in America (including us all) is obviously very ill ... Didn't the believing remnant get carted off to Babylon just like everybody else in Israel? ... i reiterate again that even when it comes to Christ, and the laws of Christianity, inately it seems that the sons of Japheth, then in Europe, and now expressly so in America, are more prone to secumbing to the temptations of personal enlargement, prosperity, and power = GREED ... This twisted dream has become Americas biggest export, and all American born people/saints, no matter what color, but particularly white (because bottom line is you're at the fore and set the standards and tones nationally and spiritually), should be asking ourselves ...

[color=CC0000]- Am i more greedy than Godly? ...

- Do i feel superior to other nationalities just because i'm an American, and over other Americans because of my own ethnicity? ...

- Am i so wrapped up in myself that i don't even care what i, or my elected officials, do in regards to others less fortunate than myself here or abroad? ...

- Do i have a clear understanding of why Christian America is so hated now more than ever, when it's not because we're so Christlike? ...

- Do i understand that other non-Christian nations see us as a Christian nation and the implications that has on how they see Christ? ...

- Is that Christian impression one of blessing to Jesus, or is one of the reasons Islam calls America(ns) "The Great Satan" due to our hypocrisy? ....

- Am i as a Christian in America a part of Christ solution of benefit and blessing to all men, or a part of the reason He has to correct His pompously pius spiritually blind Laodicean children here? ...

- Do i speak out against what i know is scripturally wrong to fellow Americans, particularly in the Body, regardless of color and class (etc), or am i a participating member of what's wrong, or worse yet a fear prone sinner of hiding like Gideon, content in winnowing our own spiritual food supply in secret? ...

- After salvation am i now a child of God first, above all else, relinquished of any Noahactic blessing or curses, of all ethnic prides and predjudices, to the abling of His use of me His Ambassador of the far country to which we are supposed to point all men to? ...

- Lord what would You have me do as salt and light to this rancid and dark country of mine? ... [/color]

The bottom line is this, the sons of Japheth, post salvation, have still managed to create a even more dangerous world politically, economically and militarily ... i mean isn't it baffling that tho started out in Hitler's Lutheran Germany it's in Christian America that nuclear weapontry came to fruition ... Japheth has created a world full of hatred toward themselves by all of "the other men" because of their being run rough shod over ... This was all well and good as long as "the white man" held iron sway over all "the other men", keeping them subservient, and especially keeping them free of WMD's, but all that has changed - thus the title of this thread ...

The Time of Japheth's Troubles, his loss of control over the world, is not only upon him, but on us all, and as evil as it was for him to prosper at such horrid cost to other men, that loss of control now places us all in potentials of violence the West, particularly America(ns), has a real hard time imagining it actually happening to us - 9/11 was but a pre-cursor ... [color=CC0000] Isn't it high time that all of us, especially we saints here in the U.S., who call ourselves Christians, cut the crap, lose every encumbrance that seperate us, and us from our fellow man, specifically when it comes to nationality, class and race, and reach out in Holy Ghost inspired fire to promoting the Man from Galilee, our Lord Jesus, who is now risen in all power and glory, and sitting at the right hand of the Father ...

As Christians, regardless of whatever, if we've got to find pride in anything, let it be that we're blood bought, predestined and called, with a singular mission to love the Lord our God with our all, our fellowsaints as our equal joint heirs in Christ, our fellowman as ourselves, ever on the mission of harvesting His other vessels of mercy who are as ignorant of their calling as we once we're ...

[b]Phil.2[/b]
[1] If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[2] Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[3] Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[4] Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [/color]

Blessings in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and may we forsake all in pursuit of becoming just like Him! ...

Bro Ironman you wrote;
"now if the nation is full of Christians and there is rampant wickedness, that means the saints aren't carrying the Torch as they ought. if there are Christians in business, there ought not to be any news of fraud or impropriety of any kind because that is not our way or it ought not to be. That as much wickedness came out of the British Empire and America even with the association with the Faith says that concerning some things, the Faith wasn't factored in so as to affect the conduct of these men."

--- Amen, but you said "that means the saints aren't carrying the Torch as they ought" ... Holy Spirit told me a while back that in refering to the saints/Church i was never to say/think "they/them", but "us/we", particularly because a part of His use of me is to point out our failings, and i'm never to think of myself as some "remnant" or "truer worshipper" apart from another saint or the Body ... So that means "we saints aren't carrying the Torch as we ought" ... See the personal urgency that becomes attached to it, it's what seperates the spiritually complacent from the trumpet blowers ...

Revelation 2 & 3 was written to 5 churches/saints who were in need of repentance ... If any saint in Ephesus thought that because what Christ said to that Church didn't apply to them, or would effect them because they we're somehow a holy remnant, i think they'd be sadly mistaken because Christ said He'd remove that church ... To the contrary, i think that when one sees unscriptural crapola happening all around Holy Spirit ought to have a willing canditate in the person in attempts of bringing to repentance ...

And amen in many of our lives claiming the Faith, it takes a back seat when it comes to material prosperity ---

Bro Ironman you wrote;
"i was reading in the Lamentations something about how God sometimes waits to deal with national sins till later...from Lamentations 5:7 - Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities."

it seems we will be the recepients of the Judgments for the many wickednesses of old along with our own...from talking to some of our brethren who are of the line of Japheth, especially at church where our Lord has been having me speak about this for the last couple of weeks, it seems they don't want to hear it for the most part. it doesn't compute perhaps but it shall be a humbling experience for us all to be pushed into community...especially for those who never knew what that was like."

--- Thanks bro for that scripture, our Lord has used you to show me that i'm not the only man who wonders about this ...

If you're experiencing a difficulty about this topic in talking to our oblivious brethren who happen to be white, i can tell you that the reception amongst saints who happen to be black ain't all that warm either ... In my circle "the blame game" is still very prevalent, and it's so obvious the "blackness" being put before "Christlikeness" ... A while back after a stab at attempted fellowship
amongst our all black congregation, and an all white one, things were just peachy as long as we stayed on Christ, there were even a few saints (white) who began to attend our services regularly, until the day bishop/the church went "black" during Af/Am history month and said some things that
made the saints (white) so uncomfortable that they got up, walked out, and never came back ... i got up and walked out with them because it was so Spirit/spirit grieving, tho i did send bishop a certified letter about it (Heb.12 :1 - let us lay aside every weight) ... It's a prayer hindering spirit of unforgiveness, in many ways akin to what many so called Messianic Jews also feel ... It's like an oxymoron "spiritual segregation" with the thought behind it that it's sufficient that we ALL have Christ, so that somehow negates that in Him we should ALL have one another in the love of His new commandment ... He said it would prove to the world that we were of Him, i'm beginning to think it's got to be proven amongst and to the Body first before it ever gets to the world

Blessings in He who gives the gift of faith, for in some areas it's much more needed to keep on pluggin' than in others ---

Greetings dear saints in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

This thread in generality is about the negative national, ethnic and class baggage all of us are borne into, learn and carry, that oft isn't even eliminated when we come to Jesus, and they should be under the mandate that anyone who comes to Christ is a new creation, the former, or old nature/man crucified with Christ ...

indeed we all have much to shed still in terms of the thought processes and other vestiges which are of the old man. We praise God for the renewing of the mind by the washing of the water of the word of God.AMEN. it seems evident to me that all this baggage is the old man striving to stay alive and escape the cross and if God has us, He will not let that happen no matter what...

indeed we ought to expect nothing less than savagery from the heathen nations and that we are guilty of a good amount of hypocrisy does indeed reflect badly on Jesus, some of us may say "oh but nobody's perfect..." but we are called to be Perfect as the Father is...some laxity on our part? The old man trying to stay alive by any means necessary, bless God though for His word which is as a Hammer and smashes to pieces such thoughts, the weapons of our warfare truly are quick and powerful for the pulling down of stongholds (wicked thought patterns) which are like fortresses and one can't use a sword to knowck down a wall...

it seems as humans perhaps one of the things we are most often guilty of is not really being concerned about what is out there until it hits us where it hurts. in that there is a laxity which comes about of the Laodicean kind which says "i'm rich and in need of nothing" at least until calamity comes and we're jarred awake from our slumber. and as you said also about the believing remnant being carried off to Babylon. Daniel was righteous man's righteous man and he was carried off too. This is something we need to get a grip on, as the word says, the rain falls on good and evil alike and so the Judgment will affect all people. Those who are God's though will prosper through it, not necessarily in a finanial sense but Spiritually as Daniel did, he received a multitude of revelations concerning what was going on and what was to come. He also was made 3rd highest ruler in Babylon...twice. The Just aren't crushed by the adversities but thrive through them. if we are honest with ourselves before God and one another, will be thrive when this Judgment comes? We have about 110 days left in the year and if our Lord did speak to me about this (and i believe He did) one one of those days, everything will fall apart and thereafter we will know for sure what manner of Christian we are...i pray that when we are weighed on the scales, we are not found wanting...God help us!AMEN.

indeed Japheth has a propensity to fall into the temptation of gaining at whatever cost and that mentality has spread the world over via capitalism in a way in which it wasn't before.

to be continued...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN

He_Reigns you wrote;
"GOD is colorblind"

---Amen, but what i often say when it comes to what color God sees when He looks down on ALL us saved folk is: RED, because we're ALL covered in the shed blood of His beloved Son Jesus Christ ---

He_Reigns you wrote;
"BTW-my skin color is what they call "white" - strange - it doesn't look white to me. I'd surely call the ambulance if it did.
Love In Christ Jesus."

---That's funny bro ... :-P

altho i can see how eventually the callings of the skin colors (close to) came to be, but i wonder when it began to happen amongst mankind ... i think that since Shem, Ham and Japheth were all Noah's sons there couldn't have been that much of a color difference between them, and i think more than likely the climates of where they branched to and settled, over millenia had much to do with coloration, body structure, etc ...

i wonder if when Marco Polo (13 century i think) went to the Far East they called him a "white man", and did he call them "yellow man" ... i wonder if there are any records of this pre discovery of America, because we know the American Indian called the European "the white man", and they called the Indian "the red man", or "red savage" to be more precise ... Same with the African, which became equated to as a "black savage" ... The American Indian also called "the white man" "pale-face", but that pretty much didn't stick, and they called Negro soldiers "Buffalo Soldiers" because of their hair ...

Here's a big thing i wonder about, how come modern men, especially learned, use the Biblical terminology of S(h)emite when refering to the Jew and Arab, Hamite when refering to the African, but never Japhethite when refering to the European ...

And bro you ended your post in what should be of most importance to all saved folk out of every tribe, nation and tongue "Love In Christ Jesus." ...

That same love back at you bro! ... :-D

Bro Ironman you wrote;
"indeed we ought to expect nothing less than savagery from the heathen nations and that we are guilty of a good amount of hypocrisy does indeed reflect badly on Jesus"

--- Amen, that it does! ...

i'm about 3/4 of the way thru Christopher Hitchen's (unabridged audio) book "God is not great" ...

[b]Atheist Christopher Hitchens now a U.S. Citizen: Please Pray! ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19339&forum=48&2

And one of the areas in which he lambasts Christianity is on the subjects of what so called Christian Empires did to others in the name of Jesus, he's particularly caustic on the subject of the African slave trade in which to being a Brit himself takes British Christains apart about it, then he soundly thrashes American Christians for their parts in it, and the subsequent discrimination practiced after Emancipation ... To use your expression "indeed" it's one of the many reasons members of The Nation of Islam quote as to why they'd never be a Christian in acceptance of what they term "the white mans religion" ...

Actually all races contribute our certain hypocrisies in Christ, but none such to a greater extent as the sons of Japheth, because not only is "the white man" the standard, but "the white man" sets the standard, of which all "other men" seek to attain, and never is it more evident than America ... Who has set the business standards for the entire world, right down to proper dress? ... Whose money is legal tender for the entire world? ... i mean look at the extent to which Af/Am women in America go thru to straighten their hair? ... There was a time when Af/Ams used dangerous chemical skin lighteners ... i remember a time when little black kids used to openly say to the dismay of their elders that they wished they were white ... In Af/Am slang who is "The Man"? ... i watched a program the other night where plastic surgery is booming in Iran where women are having their noses cut down to a more European look (it probably makes more sense with them since they are descendants of Japheth too, thru Madai) ...

On an alledged spiritual side as i said before, of whom did the prosperity Gospel originate? ... The Mega-Church? ... Corporate principled seeker friendly ministry? ... Christian broadcasting, and "pick up that phone"? ... Who redefined what a successful saint and church is? ... Who follows? ... Just about everyone! ... Osteen has the Compaq Center Church, the largest in the U.S., you best believe there are others black, white and polka dot, who want to beat that standard, and not because it's a precedence of importance set by Christ, but one set in His name that brings all types of ridicule because the question becomes "to whose glory are such goals being attained, and of how much spiritual damage is being done to those who attempt to follow"? ...

Orthodox Jewry says that man is supposed to honor God with our very being, much as Scripture tells ALL saints that we're to present ourselves as living sacrifices, but of the sons of Japheth they say that they pretty much do as they please in self pursuits, and in appeasment of their consciouses and God, build to Him grand edifices ... Perhaps that's why Europe is now so full of grand old "dead to worship" Cathedrals, and America full of "a form of Godly devotion" mega-churches hard after "another gospel", and a gazillion of other "little pastors/churches" trying to "get there"! ... :-o

It always amazes me, and bolsters such faith, as when i believe Holy Spirit has me on a mission of understanding and sharing, and i come across an interview such as the following where a author relates the history, and it's impact on mankind, regarding the very subject of this thread ...

Juan Cole recounts Napoleon's (son of Japheth) attempt to acquire Egypt (sons of Ham/Islamic) as a French (Catholic France) colony in 1789. The author relays that the initial incursion was successful however over time the Egyptians formed a resistance that depleted French control. The author makes parallels to the current U.S. (sons of Japheth/Protestant) foray in Iraq (sons of Shem/Islamic). Juan Cole discusses his book at The New American Foundation in Washington D.C.

[b]Napoleon's Egypt: Invading the Middle East (AUDIO/VIDEO INTERVIEW)[/b]
rtsp://video.c-span.org/archive/arc_btv/btv090907_cole.rm

[color=CC0000]PS - There's a short technical sound difficulty in the audio, but it passes quickly ...[/color]

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

- Am i more greedy than Godly? ...

if our response to this begins with "uh" we need to check ourselves...this applies i believe to more than money but even the reason why we do, say and think as we do, is it to Glorify God or are we doing so because there is something in it for us? My wife and i were talking about this in the morning and concluded that God isn't mocked surely in our fronting as being good and then doing wickedly behind the scenes and He is certainly not fooled when we do, say and think all the right things for the wrong reasons...

Do i feel superior to other nationalities just because i'm an American, and over other Americans because of my own ethnicity? ...

you know, my wife and i have oft been looked at as being less because we are African, moreso by black folk, although with white folk when we begin to talk, they immediately say we're smart, almost as though it was unexpected :-( All the same observing Americans visiting other countries there is oft that sense communicated in how we behave. it has been described to me as "spoilt brats" in the end though, to feel this way, that is entitled, is something of the devil which shortcircuits the mentality we ought to have as Christians, that we are all equal before God and if anything, we are admonished to consider others better than ourselves not the other way round...

Do i understand that other non-Christian nations see us as a Christian nation and the implications that has on how they see Christ? ...
Is that Christian impression one of blessing to Jesus, or is one of the reasons Islam calls America(ns) "The Great Satan" due to our hypocrisy? ....

now this here is something which i believe most of us will be slow to acknowledge given that so much "good" has been done by America. This is true, but also much wickedness has gone forth from these shores and polluted the world. Peter Tan said something to the effect of Satan will follow God wherever He is moving Mightily and set up shop there. When Israel was the centre of the Faith, he came through and scattered the saints by persecution. When Europe became the centre, he packed his bags and moved there and affected things such that Europe is a most unGodly place, when the centre became America, then came the Hollywood pop culture and other wicked doctrines which have been exported to Africa, Southeast Asia (where there is much activity concerning the Gospel) and are taking root there. In the end though it will end where it began, Jerusalem. The irony is that those Muslims call us the great Satan quite accurately in some respects because of our hypocrisies but we don't see it...it is sad when the people of God are so blind that even when the heathen are sent of God to tell them to repent, we fail to listen...

indeed the hegemony of Japheth is waning and much of the fuss against people like Castro, Chavez, l'il Kim is they won't jump when Japheth says so like them or not. now granted there are some excesses, l'll Kim is worshipped as God, Chavez seems to be getting close to Ahmadinejad whose agenda it is to nuke Israel asap and so on. since they won't go along with the plan, that bothers Japheth.

indeed let us hold fast to the Faith because therein is our Victory over not just the issues of being family descended from Noah, but over all things.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Greetings bro R in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

you quoted this from Genesis 9:

[24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.[24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
[25] And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

i would like if i may to focus on vs 26. it seems to me bro that the recepient of this blessing wasn't so much Shem as it was his God who moved so that Shem wouldn't disrespect Noah as Ham did. That Shem was blessed though is without question, clearly he was. However the last part says that Canaan would be his servant. i don't know to what extent history testifies to our forefathers being servants of Shem. it seems to me (and i could be wrong so i covet what God has shown you or will show you on this matter) that while Canaan squatted in the lands of Shem, when Shem returned from Egypt, most of the inhabitants were killed off or assimilated, some into servitude. that Canaan was made a slave of Japheth goes without saying. i feel though (bro Katz alluded to this in "Honour thy father") that to some degree, the one whom Canaan is to be a servant to is the God of Shem. Of course that got off to a bad start with Nimrod who must have surprised all the kids of Shem and Japheth alike by banding them all together on that project of Babel...but could it be that that Canaan would be his servant could also be a reference to us in this period in how we will be used of God to bring the Gospel to the Nations?perhaps at the heart of Ham being the kid who nothing was expected of was a desire to be seen and to do something, like the little brother who wants to do all his big brothers do but can't coz he's too small.

i'd not really thought about that possibility until you posted this a few days ago.

Bless God for being freed from the bondages and iniquites of our forefathers by the Blood of Jesus as He moved in us to confess them and repent. Praise God indeed.AMEN.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

now that i have a few moments, i'll respond to your posts, i was a bit behind there for a while!

Amen, but you said "that means the saints aren't carrying the Torch as they ought" ... Holy Spirit told me a while back that in refering to the saints/Church i was never to say/think "they/them", but "us/we", particularly because a part of His use of me is to point out our failings, and i'm never to think of myself as some "remnant" or "truer worshipper" apart from another saint or the Body ... So that means "we saints aren't carrying the Torch as we ought" ... See the personal urgency that becomes attached to it, it's what seperates the spiritually complacent from the trumpet blowers ...

in my mind i was making no distinction between the trumpet blowers and the rest of the body so in saying "the saints" i meant anyone who is called Christian which we are all. that didn't come across and i apologize dear saints. indeed i thought myself separate from the other saints a while ago and then God set me straight...

Revelation 2 & 3 was written to 5 churches/saints who were in need of repentance ... If any saint in Ephesus thought that because what Christ said to that Church didn't apply to them, or would effect them because they we're somehow a holy remnant, i think they'd be sadly mistaken because Christ said He'd remove that church ... To the contrary, i think that when one sees unscriptural crapola happening all around Holy Spirit ought to have a willing canditate in the person in attempts of bringing to repentance ...

yes sir! the Judgment hits everyone but the degree to which one is rooted in God determines how much each one will thrive. With no roots in God, you're done unless God moves in the midst of that to bring you through. This is going to be painfully evident in the next 110 days. Now if we find ourselves starting out by being mad at God and saying "why me i did all the right things" then we missed it...our motive for doing what is right was for gain and again, God isn't mocked or fooled by that...the word of God is a sharp 2 edged sword which is for the dividing asunder of joints and marrow, soul and spirit and the thoughts and intents of the hearts of men which we know are desperately wicked and deceptive. if we intend to do something and the word says something to us and convicts us, we ought to stop especially if it seems like the right thing to do...The danger is in becoming mechanical in doing what is right, the end of which is that when Judgment comes, the first response is outrage and anger rather than falling on one's face and acknowledging the Judgment is a result from something much closer to home rather than God being unfair or capricious.

And amen in many of our lives claiming the Faith, it takes a back seat when it comes to material prosperity

indeed, and in many other areas of our lives also...may God help us that Christ dictates how we conduct ourselves in all things.

Thanks bro for that scripture, our Lord has used you to show me that i'm not the only man who wonders about this

indeed God is good bro. i was once bitter to a degree, not that the degree matters any but that i was bitter over what has been happenning in Zimbabwe. as of Sept 10, there is no wheat in the country and when i spoke with bro James on wednesday, he said bread was in very short supply. Now much of that is Judgment on account of the many wicked things we are guilty of as our fathers were guilty of. Withcraft, demon worship, murders, necromancy and a host of other dark arts and other things too which we may not all have actively been involved in but that it is somewhere in our family lines sets us up for the hammer. Also the selfishness of us as men and how treacherously we dealt with eachother in times past and has been passed on to us added to the pile. Now that the U.K. overstepped her bounds in some respects in the pouring out of this Judgment speaks to that portion being given back to her...However God is good and He sent us not only Judgment, but Redepmtion and so many are receiving the Gospel. bro James also said for a glimpse of what America would be like, one needs to take a look at things in Zimbabwe as that is a preview of what we are in for while the prosperity that was here will be what shall come to Zimbabwe in short order.

i think bro that the resistance to the message of what is coming hasn't so much to do with colour (as i gathered from your experience among saints which are black) but what is inherent in man in our wickedness, a refusal to fess up and repent. if we remember well the prophets of old, we have an idea of how this message will be received by the people of God...not well.

all the same if indeed God has spoken through us, He will vindicate His word without regard to whether we listen or not...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus who has loosed us from every hinderance.AMEN.

Bro. Ironman you wrote;
"i would like if i may to focus on vs 26. it seems to me bro that the recepient of this blessing wasn't so much Shem as it was his God who moved so that Shem wouldn't disrespect Noah as Ham did.
That Shem was blessed though is without question, clearly he was. "

--- What strikes me about "Blessed be the LORD God of Shem" is that it seems even at this point, in fact at his birth, Shem (name) was already chosen by HaShem(The Name=God) to bear His choosing ... To me it seems that Shem didn't have to get a direct blessing in that His being chosen was the blessing in itself ... It's much the same way i feel about my own pre-destination, that for some reason unfathomable to me He chose me as one of His "vessels of mercy", "the called", to which i know i'm so unworthy but so very thankful that He did! ... ---

Bro Ironman you wrote,
"However the last part says that Canaan would be his servant. i don't know to what extent history testifies to our forefathers being servants of Shem."

---While Canaan may well be a far distant relative, i as a Hamite don't identify with him at all ... His breaking off and choosing to live in Shem's land where he didn't belong set he and his descendants up for even more difficulty than those who went on to Africa to their agreed alotment ... i identify soley with the African Hamite, to which history, and a new DNA test, shows that 99% of all Black people in America descended from enslaved Africans derived from West Africa in the Senegal - Liberia area ---

Bro Ironman you wrote,
"Of course that got off to a bad start with Nimrod who must have surprised all the kids of Shem and Japheth alike by banding them all together on that project of Babel...but could it be that that Canaan would be his servant could also be a reference to us in this period in how we will be used of God to bring the Gospel to the Nations?"

--- As i stated before, i think because of what transpired with Noah, and the cursing of Ham's baby boy Canaan, i think Ham already apparently a problem child, became worse and he and his descendants bore a chip on their shoulder which manifested itself in Nimrod, because at the tower of Babel Nimrod said, that he'd: make a "shem" (name - for himself) ... So no i don't think that pronouncement on Canaan has any bearing whatsoever on us today in any way regarding our being servants to Shem ... If anything, if in fact God will allow the sons of Ham an opportunity to steward His Gospel in a way that might provoke the Jew to jealousy it won't be because of our being his servant, but because of our being HIS servant toward them, in ways of bearing HaShem that pricks them to the memory of a more glorious time when they were the principle carriers of "true worship" ---

Bro Ironman you wrote,
"Bless God for being freed from the bondages and iniquites of our forefathers by the Blood of Jesus as He moved in us to confess them and repent. Praise God indeed.AMEN."

--- Amen - this is the best part - But might i add - May He now quicken us ALL regardless of nationality, race, creed, colar and class, to truly live we're "freed from the bondages and iniquites of our forefathers by the Blood of Jesus" ...

i know we as the Body, particularly here in the U.S., aren't there yet because we're Laodicean blind,
soon to be rudely awakened, and forced into a "sensory overload", much like what happens when one has been in the dark so long, and suddenly someone turns on a bright light! ... The blessing will be that our darkness will be eliminated, it just won't feel initially like it's marvelous ...

Bro R you wrote:

While Canaan may well be a far distant relative, i as a Hamite don't identify with him at all ... His breaking off and choosing to live in Shem's land where he didn't belong set he and his descendants up for even more difficulty than those who went on to Africa to their agreed alotment ... i identify soley with the African Hamite

Also Bro R you said:

So no i don't think that pronouncement on Canaan has any bearing whatsoever on us today in any way regarding our being servants to Shem ... If anything, if in fact God will allow the sons of Ham an opportunity to steward His Gospel in a way that might provoke the Jew to jealousy it won't be because of our being his servant, but because of our being HIS servant toward them, in ways of bearing HaShem that pricks them to the memory of a more glorious time when they were the principle carriers of "true worship" ---

bro He Reigns

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

you know the articles you posted were rather interesting, especially the first one...there have been rumblings about martial law and such for a while now and it seems if this is true, the government may well be suspecting something is coming. if our Lord has spoken to the saints charged with the task of warning of this calamity, and we have heard rightly, the movements in the first article are in keeping with the expectation of calamity.

you said this on a lighter note:

BTW-my skin color is what they call "white" - strange - it doesn't look white to me. I'd surely call the ambulance if it did.

i know, i don't know who came up with that but if my skin suddenly looked white, i'd call an ambulance too!

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro R

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

i wonder who it was who coined these terms, black, and white and so on, he must have had rose-colored glasses or something... :-P

i always wondered where the term buffalo soldier came from, i knew it had something to do with blacks as soldiers (from the video for the song of the same title by bob Marley) but didn't know it had to do with our hair. interesting since our hair is curly like that.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus. AMEN.

Greetings bro R in Jesus' Name by WHose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

While Canaan may well be a far distant relative, i as a Hamite don't identify with him at all ... His breaking off and choosing to live in Shem's land where he didn't belong set he and his descendants up for even more difficulty than those who went on to Africa to their agreed alotment ... i identify soley with the African Hamite, to which history, and a new DNA test, shows that 99% of all Black people in America descended from enslaved Africans derived from West Africa in the Senegal - Liberia area

well that Canaan was cursed and was the first born implies that whoever came afterward would get some of that curse. However as i said, i don't know that history says that Canaan was much of a servant of Shem. Now that the blessing from Noah was to the Lord GOd of Shem speaks more of servitude toward God rather than Shem necessarily.

If anything, if in fact God will allow the sons of Ham an opportunity to steward His Gospel in a way that might provoke the Jew to jealousy it won't be because of our being his servant, but because of our being HIS servant toward them, in ways of bearing HaShem that pricks them to the memory of a more glorious time when they were the principle carriers of "true worship" ---

that's what i felt.

Amen - this is the best part - But might i add - May He now quicken us ALL regardless of nationality, race, creed, colar and class, to truly live we're "freed from the bondages and iniquites of our forefathers by the Blood of Jesus" ...

AMEN.

there was a song i listened to the other day by Burning Spear.there is a verse which hits me when he says:

those who know right, and do ye not,
shall be spanked with many a stripe!
weeping and wailing and mourning!
oh you've got yourselves to blame (i saw we have ourselves to blame)

We're about to get hit with it...God help us and wake us up.AMEN.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Sis S you wrote;
"I would just like to clarify that and make sure that I understand correctly that Canaan was indeed the son of Ham who received the curse for Ham's wrong doing. In Genesis 9:25 it says: he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers." It just seems to me that in denying being a descendent of Canaan it might cause confusion and I wonder if reading the scripture again would clarify that Canaan is the son Ham and being a descendent of Canaan makes us a descendant of Ham. "

Sis S ... First get a map and look at how far apart Canaan (vacinity of modern Israel) is from the continent of Africa ... When Canaan was living in Israel the rest of the sons of Ham were off populating Africa ... It seems the further south we went, eventually the darker we got ... i don't believe Canaan who settled in the land of Shem, shortly after the flood and the dividing up of the land, over the centuries, and especially over millenia, would look anything like you or i, but rather more middle eastern looking because of their being effected as Shem by the same climate, etc ... That's why i said at the beginning i believe that at the onset Shem, Ham and Japheth looked pretty much alike as being brethren birthed from the same mother and Dad, but that i very much doubt we descendants (with the exception of Shem because we all came from the Middle Eastern area of Eden's location) over such a long period of time would look the same now ... Thus Canaan, tho a son of Ham, living in the vacinity of Israel, if we could pinpoint any of his descendants today i doubt very much would look anything like us, they would'nt be as dark as you and bro Ironman, who descended from Zimbabwe (S. Africa), or as dark as myself even tho i'm mixed with Japheth via English/Irish DNA ... i think they'd look as i said Middle Eastern, much as the Iranians (Persians) tho Japhethic via Madai who like Canaan also settled in Shems land, and they look nothing like Europeans ... Hope you're following me here ...

That's why i said,
"While Canaan may well be a far distant relative, i as a Hamite don't identify with him at all ... His breaking off and choosing to live in Shem's land where he didn't belong set he and his descendants up for even more difficulty than those who went on to Africa to their agreed alotment ... i identify soley with the African Hamite, to which history, and a new DNA test, shows that 99% of all Black people in America descended from enslaved Africans derived from West Africa in the Senegal - Liberia area"

The other thing is the Bible quotes Canaan as being the father of Sidon, his firstborn; and of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites, and Hamathites. Later the Canaanite clans scattered, and the borders of Canaan reached [across the Mediterranean coast] from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then [inland around the Jordan Valley] toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha (from Wickepedia).

So yep Canaan may be a far distant cousin in my book, but i find it hard to fathom how we who're derived oor seperate ancestry from Hamites settled in west and south Africa can make that connection in lineage, let alone the curse pronounced on the Canaanites ---

Sis S you wrote;
"Now we have seen already in history and as you have accurately recounted with many examples how Canaan(Ham's son) has already been the slave of Japheth."

---i haven't pointed out such instances as Canaan being slaves to Japheth, but of African Hamites, specifically from the west coast of Africa being slaves of Japheth ---

Sis S you wrote;
"I expect that Canaan will be the one to carry the gospel to Shem and to me carrying the gospel also implies service. So don't get bent out of shape over the word servant and thinking back to the days of slavery. Rather think of Shem being provoked to jealousy in how Canaan (sons of Ham) carry the Gospel, how we serve God and how we serve Shem in bringing that gospel to him(Shem).

--- i think my upper post will clear my take on this also ... And sis i'm not bent out of shape over anything regarding this thread, as i tried to make clear from the beginning the words "slave", "servant", etc. don't affect me in the negative ways it once did ...

Also, as i posted to bro Ironman prior we may "suspect" that God may allow the sons of Ham (my own personal belief Canaan's descendants excluded for obvious OT reasons), it's been prophesied, but there's no Biblical indication of this, and so if it is to be we'll know it when it hits us ... In fact bro Ironman and myself will know it (i believe) for sure as soon as God proves us true in what we believe He's told us to prophesy ... If we're proven wrong then that shoots all the other, what i call extra-carricular faith, right out the window and we can all settle down to a far less dramatic walk with our Lord than we're all engaged in now ---

Sis S you wrote,
"I also believe that "Canaan's breaking off and choosing to live in Shem's land where he didn't belong set he and his descendants up for even more difficulty than those who went on to Africa to their agreed alotment" Speaks largley to the rebellion that we see in Ham and consequently in us black people in general. It make sense in my spirit and in my head, I hope it makes sense on the thread!"

---Amen it does seeem that we've descended from the most rebellious of the brethren, but if you recall from "The Called", in the Book of Jubilees it stated that Canaan's brothers (those who went on to Africa) begged Cannan not to settle in Shem's land because "it wasn't right" ... He did so anyway, i hope you can see now that are as seperated in consequences from Africans and he and his descendants in Shem's land, physically as far apart from we the bulk of Ham's descendants as Senegal and Zimbabwe is from the land of Israel ... The two don't connect ---

Blessings in Christ Jesus ... Gotta run, my baby bro is in from Cali this weekend! :-D ... ---

:-)

Well then Brother R, I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification. And now that I think about it making reference to the called does bring some things to rememberence(I only read it twice).
And by the way, does Ironman need to send you some more pictures of our family? I am not nearly as dark as him or our daughter. But yes yes, I get it. We are certainly darker than those in the middle east!

Sis S you wrote;
"Well then Brother R, I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification. And now that I think about it making reference to the called does bring some things to rememberence(I only read it twice)."

---As when we spoke my intent in any post is not to "correct" because that makes things far to pointed and personal and can become misconstrued as negative, especially since we can't see nor hear the delivery as when face to face ... That's why i attempt to use "smiley" and "laugh" face emoticons in hopes of easing edges ... My whole thing is about "clarification" ... Being confused about so many scriptural things as i was coming up is what made me seek after our Lord for clarification, and the ability and means to share it ... That's why i believe He gave me The Called, of which in the research i learned so much about the spreading of mankind ... Prior to that it really hadn't clicked that Canaan was really a descendant of Ham, and by his choice completely cut himself off (and therefore his curse) from Cush, Mizraim, and Phut, whom all we Africans descended from ... Talk about the trickle down effect, into a more self contained continent the further south our ancestors ventured ... This same misunderstanding, if not straight out twisting of the scripture, of placing Canaan's curse of slavery even on the descendants of the rest of his brethren is how the sons of Japheth justified not only the slave trade, but all subsequent theories of all Hamites being the lesser of all mankind ---

Sis S you wrote;
"And by the way, does Ironman need to send you some more pictures of our family? I am not nearly as dark as him or our daughter. But yes yes, I get it. We are certainly darker than those in the middle east!"

--- i'd started to address this before but didn't, but because of your post i will here ... i don't know if Africans have this problem, but Af /Am's sure do (altho i think that it's lessened slightly) ... But what it has to do with is predjudice amongst Af/Am's because of skin color, a precedent caused by comparrison of how "light" an Af/Am is in juxtaposition to European skin color ... i remember when i was younger many darker Af/Am's disliked me because i was what they called "yellow" ... My cousin Cary was disliked because he was concidered "red" ... i remember when i first found out this type inter-racial predjudice was even in my own family when i fell in love with a really dark girl (concidered black) ... i remember when my best friend, a Hispanic, fell in love with an Af/Am girl, and his Mom who was a very light Latina freaked out about it ... Her saying was, "If you're white you're all-right, if you're brown you can stick around, but if you're black get back" ... i remember getting treated much better by whites, especially in the arena of employment, than another of my good friends because he was dark ... i remember when it came to what was the ideal female, a trophy if you will, it was either a "white woman", or and Af/Am woman "light, bright, almost white" like Lena Horne back then ... This was/is all a part of the horrible, self-loathing, aspect of what the institution of slavery did to Hamites in America ... It institutionalized a longing to be just like, as good as, the very folk who had their foot on your neck ... There was a time in America where black people who could pass for white did ... There was a time when black women who had "kinky hair", longed to have - but hated black women who had what was called "good hair" ... Madam C.J. Walker was the first black woman in America to become a millionaire because she figured out the then potentially dangerous chemical process to "straighten" or "relax" black hair ...

i also saw this first hand in other races ... i worked with two Catholic Puerto Rican guys, one brown with very curly hair who if he didn't speak was oft mistaken for an Af/Am, the other very light and Spainard looking, they really disliked one another ... The brown Latino hung around with we Negros and was pretty much treated in the same condescending manner by our white co-workers as ourselves ... The Spainard looking PR only hung around with the white guys, was accepted by them, and he looked down his nose on us in equality with them ... Then i worked with a Latina Spainard whom i first thought was a light skinned Puerto Rican, said such, and promptly got a lesson in what a European Spainard thought of "the refuse" the Conquistadors left behind in The New World ...

All this to say again that Japheth is the standard that "the other men" attain to, and if "the other men" after salvation in Christ still hold these same old standards in feelings of "superiority" or "inferiority" then we're not free in our new found liberty in Christ, and we need to can this crapola too! ... If a saint, particularly an Af/Am, is somehow still twisted in seeing oneself, or others, as better or worse than themselves by skin color, or hair quality, then this needs to be repented up as sin, and eliminated from ones thought pattern ... This too is under the category of being renewed in the spirit of our minds! ...

Christ Jesus is the only standard, the Mediator, to which all we suffering from superiority and inferiority complexes are to meet in His unity and become one! ... Amen

[b]Rom.8
[5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.[/b]

HE_Reigns you wrote;
"This all is an important piece of History that "white historians" would love to leave out of their writings."

--- That's my point ... Back then they didn't love to leave it out - they did leave it out ... Black people were left out of everything except possibly the Census ... But as i also said i believe that's changed now and black Christianity is numbered amongst The Bible Belt stats ... A lot has changed "institutionally" in America regarding the inclusion of Af/Am's, in employment particularly when big business in America who did work for the government could'ny get contracts unless they had 10% Af/Am employees ... i myself benefited from this in gaining employment with GE, ny boss got a bonus for hiring me, and for a long time i was known amongst my white co-workers as a "token Negro" ... Same thing with education, even Christian when you look at say the racist history of Bob Jones University ... It didn't change it's tune until it stood in loss of Federal dollars for it's discriminatory treatment of negro students ... Funny how $$$ changes everything ---

HE_Reigns you wrote;
"But all of us "now red folks", as you say, ought to truly look at this fact and see that prejudice Stinks to High Heaven. The Af/Am's held the true Gospel stronger [through persecution and hardships] than the white Churches did down south, until the day that MLK died - that's why they killed him. "The Plan" was/is for "race wars" and MLK and those before him, preached a type of Christian non-resistance. If "this" identity was restored to the Af/Am community - I believe we'd see a revival for the people."

--- Hmmmm ... i guess for me there's a separation of having "the true Gospel", and "walking the walk" after attainment of "the true Gospel" message(s) ... To me the true Gospel is "Jesus Saves" and here what one has to do in order to attain that salvation, then after that comes the Christian walk which by becoming more and more familiar with Scripture one begins to shed "the old man" ... Well in the cases of what this thread is about, particularly of Japheth's descendants balancing their blessing of enlargement with Christian values and standards, in some very important areas what Christ would do came up blatantly lacking ...

Now as to the American black clergy/church up until the attainments of The Civil Rights agenda, at this point i'm saddly disappointed in them for the most part ... Why? ... Because i have a hard time with how doggedly dedicated they once we're in the attainment of "freedom", but after that struggle was won how lax they've become in the "new struggle" of the spiritual maintenance required in addressing the obvious spiritual decay and moral rot that so easily creeps in when the "oppression" is lifted ...

As i've said before, as awful as segregation was (and i don't wish it back by any means), integration brought with it a whole new set of problems ... Segregation, and racial discrimination, focused black people (primarily Christian), the black clergy, and the black Church on the attainment of "a prize" that kept them (i say them here because i was a JW during this time) on their knees before God and seeking His help ... Now one would think that after attaining "a prize" that would open up the door for an even more earnest quest toward "the prize"! ... Not so, and look what has happened to so many Af/Am's today ... Our communities have primarily become filled with weak, tepid churches with no where near the drawing closer to Jesus power they once had, and now it seems clergy and membership have for the most part signed on for "another prize" which in fact is just "another slavery", that of aping the Japhethic origined "another gospel" of wealth and prosperity attainment, completely ignoring the following scripture that may be even more painful to Af/Am Christians than other saints ... It shouldn't, but even if it does it's still truth (no matter how hard it may hit) ...

[b]1Tim.6
[1] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
[2] And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
[3] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[4] He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
[5] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
[6] But godliness with contentment is great gain.
[7] For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
[8] And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
[9] But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
[10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.[/b]

As a Christian i can certainly see the "erring from the faith" that the prosperity Gospel has caused particularly in America, and specifically amongst Af/Am's, and we're ALL already pierced through with many sorrows of which the pain hasn't fully registered yet ---

HE_Reigns you wrote;
"I don't believe there is one Born-Again Christian in my entire European Family Tree. For that I grieve. "

---i'm not sure what you mean by this, but if it's because of what some Europeans have done, and are yet doing, in claims of salvation whilst yet committing some dastardly deeds, only God knows whether they're saved or not, and i leave that up to Him ... in accordance to Romans chapters 9 & 11 i have a tendency to lay all things at God's feet, because while we men (even saved) are capable of doing some truly un-Christlike things, i'm really never sure of their originator if their origins, let alone the why's and wherefores particular of history ... An example being God's use of Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery so that God could work out His plan of moving Israel into Egypt to further fulfill His plan of eventually enslaving the entire nation ... So maybe i should'nt even wonder at all, but i do, and my biggest wonder is about what i believe we have some control over ... Our own decisions ... As a Christian there are some things other men claiming Christ have done to their fellowman, and are yet doing, that i as a blood saved saint wouldn't do ... And if anything i pray that this thread pricks hearts and consciencies for the checking of our own thoughts, motivations and decisions, particularly in the arena of how we relate to our fellowman, and that as a saint in a setting of saints if we see/hear other saints behaving in a manner, particularly regarding the same subject, in ways besmirching to the name of Christ and Christianity, we'll allow Holy Spirit's use of us to call such evil: evil, and the need of repentance and mind renewal as followers of Jesus Christ ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus! ---