some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Calvinism teaches the inability of man to choose Truth, but the Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth):

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."

U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith):

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

I = IRRESTABLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life."

Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."

P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."

Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

CONCLUSION:

Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but solely according to His will. This strikes at the love and justice of God, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.

Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."

Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."

John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Compiled by John Henry

The use of words such as "ALL", "EVERYONE" and "THE WHOLE WORLD" to refute Limited Atonement on the grounds that they appear to refer to absolutely everyone is simply bad hermeneutics on the grounds that the use of such words in scripture is not always within a universal context.

E.g.

1In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL THE WORLD should be registered. 2This was the first registration when Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3And all went to be registered, each to his own town.
Luke 2:1-3

How far did the census go? Did it extend to China, Australia, the Soloman Islands? Of course not. It is refering only to jurisdiction of the Roman Empire.

17The crowd that had been with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to bear witness. 18The reason why the crowd went to meet him was that they heard he had done this sign. 19So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, THE WORLD has gone after him.”
John 12:17-19

Clearly, most people in the world - much less every single person in 1st century Palestine - did not know about Jesus or his miracles. This was merely the concerned Pharisees' reaction to the sight of a crowd.

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in ALL THE WORLD.
Romans 1:8

Had the Great Commission been completely fulfilled at the time in which Romans was written? No, even to this day, there are sadly many tribes and cultures out there who never once in their history have been blessed to know about Jesus.

It is crucial that when we see words such as "ALL", "EVERYONE" and "THE WHOLE WORLD", we understand the context in which they are used. They can only refer to a universal application if indeed their parent texts actually do imply every single person.

Amen, good post hmmhmm.

intrcssr83, you are correct that "all" and "world" does not always directly apply to each and every individual on the earth. But where the Calvinist errs is he redefines the word to mean a particular group. All means all, not some. Greek has different words for these, and God uses them to distinguish. He wasn't confused. It can mean "in general" all, but it still means all. This is how Jesus used those words in the passages you quote. He meant "all," and just because it specifically applied to the people there, you can't redefine it to mean only those people. Everyone else was still included. As far as the Caesar quote...how do you know he didn't want the whole world to have a census? Sure, he only had jurisdiction over Rome, and so he did his part there, but that doesn't mean he didn't declare one for the whole world. Governments do this today all the time...it's how all foreign policy works.

We tread on very thin ice when we start redefining words "based on their context." I'm not discounting context, because in order to understand how words are used and applied, we must look at context. But anyone can make up anything when we redefine words that have clear, singular meanings. This is how heresies and cults come about.

How far did the census go? Did it extend to China, Australia, the Soloman Islands? Of course not. It is refering only to jurisdiction of the Roman Empire.

since im no scholar i use these computer study sources :-) and this is what strongs have to say about how far this word means

3625 oivkoume,nh oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
Meaning: 1) [b]the inhabited earth 1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians 1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire 1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world 1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men 2) the universe, the world [/b]

it seems to me it could be the entire earth, or only the roman empire. Or even the entire universe, but i guess that is a bit optimistic.

one verse that the word is used for the whole earth is

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Calvinism teaches the inability of man to choose Truth, but the Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth):

Unfortunately, the author starts off with a wrong idea. No Calvinist would ever deny that God created man with the ability to reason, or think, or choose. The issue is that after the fall, and the entry of sin into the human race, men only choose sin and death until their heart is renewed.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

This is not a good verse to try to argue against "total inability" at all, for consider what comes before it-
Eph 2:1 And [b]you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;[/b]
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 [b]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)[/b]

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

Again, a poor verse to argue with, for no Calvinist would say otherwise. Rather the point being that unless man hears with the spiritual ears he will not be saved. Christ Himself spoke of those who could not "hear" what He was saying though they were standing right in front of Him.

Look at what precedes this verse-
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Then look what is after it-
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

If faith comes by hearing with the natural ear, then why didn't they believe? This is the point Paul is making, and why he is saying it is imperative to send forth preachers to speak the word that God may open ears to the truth of the Gospel.

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Of course this is written to believers who already had been "enabled" and believed, so it should not be brought in to the discussion. They can receive because they have been enabled to receive, but again these are believers.

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Here this is spoken to God's people Israel, and He is urging them to repent because of His goodness and mercy and because of the covenant He had established with them. This verse cannot be applied to unsaved people as this is to the "church" of the OT.

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Again this is not spoken to unbelievers, but rather to the nation of Israel which were God's covenant people. If we were to apply this to unbelievers, we would have to understand that man left to his own devices would only choose sin and death until his heart is changed so that he desires life, that being Christ.

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Again this is to Israel, and not the unsaved nations surrounding them. This is an urgent call to Israel to return to God.

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

Here David is speaking, or the author of Psalm 119, as one who has had revelation of God. It does not say that our of the blue, this person "chose" God's word, and saw it as true. If this was a proof text for man's ability, then it denies the fact that the natural man cannot understand spiritual things, and it also wipes out the need of the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to men, as man, according to the agenda of the author, already possesses an "inner light" to guide him into truth.

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

It would be nice if the author would have included the next verse-
John 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

There can be no receiving without the new birth, which is not produced by man, or aided by man. But is given by God to whom He will, when He will, as the Gospel is preached.

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."

Again this is written by Paul who I would say is a believer. So again this has no bearing on the "ability" of man.

Now for section two.... :-D

U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith):

This is wrong. Calvinism teaches as do the Scriptures that God's choosing of people for salvation is not based upon any "condition" in them good or bad, but rather to the praise and glory of God based upon His good pleasure.

No Calvinist would ever deny that faith is needed to be saved, and here the author sets up an unfair and uneducated argument based on a wrong presumption.

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

I do not even understand what the author is trying to say here as he said this section was about "faith". If anything this verse actually beautifully illustrates God's work in salvation apart from anything in man.

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Again this verse only goes on to illustrate the fact that God has predestined those whom He saves. No man can believe the truth of the Gospel apart from the Holy Spirit renewing his heart so that he can believe.

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Yes, and what was her faith based upon? Revelation of who Christ was. Jesus Himself said, "no man can come to me unless the Father which has sent me draws him..."(John 6:44)

Man in and of himself will not come to Christ, because he sees no need to come. it is only when the Holy Spirit works upon the heart that a man "sees" his need for Christ.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Notice what is being said here, salvation has nothing to do with us, the faith we have is a gift, salvation is a gift. How does this disprove unconditional election?

Now for the big "L"....

L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

I am glad that he chose this Scripture to start with, but if only he would have gone a little further into the chapter, he would have found this-
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall [b]my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

Many but not all shall be justified because Christ bore their iniquities. Now compare this to Christ's own words-
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and [b]to give his life a ransom for many.[/b]
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is [b]shed for many for the remission of sins.[/b]

And here from the book of Hebrews-
Heb 9:28 So [b]Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;[/b] and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Those who Christ would die for were given to Him by the Father before the foundation of the world, and Christ Himself said that none that Father had given Him would perish, thus common sense dictates that we must bow the knee to the fact that if God wanted "all" men saved, He would have put "all" men into Christ, and He would have paid for their sins upon Calvary, and the Holy Spirit would apply that salvation to them in the present. The Bible does not teach this though.

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

Now I could be wrong, but I believe that the word "Saviour" is in a verb form, which would mean one who is saving.

The Greek word "soter" can also mean deliverer, or one who preserves. It is where we get "soteriology" or the study of salvation or how a person is saved..

Since we know that this cannot mean God has saved all men, we must assume(rightly) that it may mean something other than how it plainly reads, as Scripture does not contradict itself.

So I would say that it means that God is the preserver, and sustainer of all men in His providence, His blessings of life, air, rain, the beauty of nature etc. But He is the specific sustainer in this life and the one to come of those who believe.

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Yes and this whole world was all who existed outside of the Jewish realm.

What the author fails to see is that if one person perished, or suffered the wrath of God, then his view must be proven wrong. For we know that a "propitiation" is a "wrath atoning sacrifice". Therefore, if the wrath of God has been atoned for for all men everywhere, and one person suffers that wrath, then either the Bible is wrong, or the view being put forth is. it cannot be both.

God has propitiated His wrath toward those whom he will save, and in some sense the unsaved have a benefit in this. The world still exists, they get to enjoy the blessings of creation, the beauty of nature etc.. But it is much like in the OT when nations shared in the blessings of Israel because Israel was God's covenantal and chosen people.

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

Yes, every man that will be saved, Christ has tasted death for, but since not every man will be saved, then this cannot mean "all men".

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

God seeks to save all kinds of men, this is true. His eternal decree is that out of every nation, tribe, and tongue men would be saved. but still this does not show that all men will be saved, and if anything shows a warped view of God, for if God has willed something, yet cannot do it, then we are all in trouble, because then He is not much different than you or I.

Alright now to "I"...

I = IRRESTABLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):

Calvinism teaches that God's grace is effectual, and is not wasted. God's grace accomplishes that which it sets out to do i.e. grant faith to those whom He has chosen in Christ. Man can and often does resist this at first, yet the Spirit changes the will and makes man willing. This change is worked almost unknowingly, it is not coercion but rather regeneration, and the man now desires what he once thought foolish, and loves what he once hated.

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

Had God wanted them to, they would have. but there are many times where Christ thanked the Father for hiding truth from people. Peter though as God had chosen him was allowed the revelation of Christ, and Jesus told him, "blessed art thou.. for flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in Heaven."

Grace accomplished what it was sent to do in whom God chose.

John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life."

They would not, because they could not. Consider Christ's words here-
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 [b]All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;[/b] and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 [b]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:[/b] and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now consider these words of Christ that come before the verses used by the author-
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so [b]the Son quickeneth whom he will.[/b]

And also these-
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

If anything, we see here that unless there is a giving of Life, and an internal dwelling of the word, there is no life.

Rather than working to support this man's argument this rather shows the depravity of even religious men apart from Divine life being given to them. This also shows that men cannot come unless they are made able to come.

Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

As do all men, thus the condemnation they feel. Because light has come into the world, but men love darkness, and every bit of light that comes their way they hate and despise.

Notice the key phrase here "uncircumcised in heart". here is why they could not understand or not resist. Their hearts were unchanged. Consider Paul's words in Philippians 3-
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

And these words to the Colossians-
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

These men in the Acts passage above could do nothing but resist because they were not recipients of grace to be "circumcised in heart".

Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Men may refuse all they want, but the one who God has chosen for salvation will be saved. His grace accomplishes what it sets out to do. Look at Paul the Apostle.

Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."

This would be the description of the reprobate man who never was a recipient of God's grace. His mercy, yes,but not grace as God's grace always accomplishes what it sets out to do.

Now to "P".....

P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

I don't really see the difference, God sustains all whom He calls, and brings them to glory.

Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."

This in no way is contrary to anything within Calvinism.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "

Again, nothing to contradict Calvinism

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."

Yep, this is why we hold to assurance of the saint's salvation. If anything the author is establishing what Calvinists believe.

Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Amen

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

Ok, I do not see what the argument was, but no Calvinist would disagree with any of what was said. Since God begins the work, God sustains the work.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 [b]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

Now to the conclusion....

Quote:

P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

I don't really see the difference, God sustains all whom He calls, and brings them to glory.

I don't know the mind of this writer but most that make that distinction are saying that you can be a Christian and not live like it. In other words, you will be preserved no matter what you do- regardless if you persevere in the faith or not. In this mindset, you don't have to continue until the end to be saved. In theory, you could "make a decision" live holy for about 1 year, then live the rest of your life in adultery and still be saved since you are "preserved." Antinomianism.

CONCLUSION:
Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but solely according to His will. This strikes at the love and justice of God, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.

Well hopefully by looking at Scriptures the author left out, we can see that this is not the case. God's will is the deciding factor in salvation-
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of [b]him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[/b]

The author would have us believe that man must be free in order to have God be fair, or that man is somehow born neutral towards God. this however is not the case as "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3.

Men are against God, and love sin, if left in this state, or left to find salvation on their own they would not, for how could a blind man see, or a dead man walk? it is the utmost mercy and grace of God that He gives life to anyone at all. God must be the one who authors and finishes our faith for in our natural hearts there is nothing but hatred for God and His ways.

Man is not neutral to be swayed either for God, or for self. he is rather pro-self, pro-sin, pro- satan from the womb.

Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."

And God does not, all is based upon Christ. God does not judge a man unfairly as no man can stand with any reason for acceptance before God.

All men are equally damned, so there is none better than another. God has mercy on whom He will, and it is His free choice to do so.

Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."

Notice the point is that God does not respect Jew over Gentile as the Jews believed God did. This has nothing to do with an idea of God favoring some men over others in regard to salvation.

John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Again the author uses what is favourable to his agenda, and leaves out the rest of the verse in this chapter-
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:64 But [b]there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.[/b]
John 6:65 And he said, [b]Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

See thoughts on Total Depravity for this.

My purpose in answering these points is not to "convert" anyone to Calvinism, but rather that we would see the great work of God in Christ.

I have struggled to come to grips with the cause and effect these doctrines, and it is difficult, but the Scriptures are true, and my own heart is deceitful. I am but a weak man who has a great Saviour.

Blessings to all, and to God be the glory!!!

In other words, you will be preserved no matter what you do- regardless if you persevere in the faith or not. In this mindset, you don't have to continue until the end to be saved. In theory, you could "make a decision" live holy for about 1 year, then live the rest of your life in adultery and still be saved since you are "preserved."

Yet the one who is truly born of the Spirit will not abide in adultery, as God will chasten and rebuke him to bring about repentance and sanctification.

No one makes a "decision" for Christ, rather the decision was made in eternity past before the foundations of the Earth. Some may think that they have made a decision, and are thereby "born again", but this is not regeneration which is only worked by the Spirit.

I know of no Calvinists who would say a person could abide in sin without being grieved and crying out for greater sanctification, and be a true Christian.

then why are there so many warnings throughout the whole new testament? if the true church , witch i guess is the one paul writes to and all the others, no meaning write to the others who god dident choose. But why bother to write them and warn them if they cant lose their salvation?

The same reason I would tell my child, "if you play in the street, or drink poison, you will have problems".

This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.

Many of the warnings especially in Hebrews are written to warn the audience not to turn from the sufficient sacrifice of Christ to either sacrifices or self righteousness. Galatians addresses this also, and say that the one who falls from grace is because they have looked to the Law as a means of righteousness.

Brother regardless of Theology, Christ alone is sufficient, and faith in Him fulfills God's requirements as His righteousness has been imputed to me. Thus far Calvinism, and Reformed Theology make Christ a complete Saviour who not only makes salvation possible, but actually saves people.

I know of no Calvinists who would say a person could abide in sin without being grieved and crying out for greater sanctification, and be a true Christian.

I agree, Calvinist usually say that. What I was describing was not a Calvinist doctrine. Calvinist believe in perseverance of the saints- that they will continue in the faith. "Preservation of the saints" says it doesn't matter how you live, you will be kept from hell.

I had never heard of that before. Funny how you move a couple letters around and... :-)

The same reason I would tell my child, "if you play in the street, or drink poison, you will have problems".

This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.

No one warns their child of something there child is not capable of doing.

This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.

Many of the warnings especially in Hebrews are written to warn the audience not to turn from the sufficient sacrifice of Christ to either sacrifices or self righteousness.

If you were in an open field, would tell your child "now don't fall off that 1000ft bluff." Of course not, it is impossible to fall off a bluff when you are in an open field. For you to warm someone of something, you are implying there is a possibility of it happening.

Nile wrote:

The same reason I would tell my child, "if you play in the street, or drink poison, you will have problems".

This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.

No one warns their child of something there child is not capable of doing.

Were you looking at my computer screen while I was typing? :-P

But the warnings were to those turning from the sufficiency of Christ and His work and payment for the sins of His people.

If a man that was genuinely regenerated could be lost, Jesus would be a liar for saying-
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, [b]that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[/b]

And notice, here Christ mentions this work again-
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, [b]that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.[/b]
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice who gives eternal life, and what it is.

Then compare that with these-
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Or in John 6-
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Compare this with Romans 8 and you'll see that Christ will not lose any that are given to Him.

PreachParsly wrote:

This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.

Many of the warnings especially in Hebrews are written to warn the audience not to turn from the sufficient sacrifice of Christ to either sacrifices or self righteousness.

I would ask the same question of someone who believes God already knows who will respond to his warnings. Why would God warn someone who he knows already will not listen to the warning? Is he robbing that person of the chance to obey. Clearly not, whatever is going to happen, God already knows so he has not been insincere either in the warning or in not warning. God has the sure privelege to make His glorious law known whether any man will obey it or not. Suppose God were not to use the Holy Spirit to enlighten the blind to their error. Would he be less sincere to proclaim His law to the blind anyway? The basic presumption in any argument to the contrary is that man deserves fairness from God and that is a fundamentally flawed premise. God is fair in his judgement. Anything is else is pure mercy and purely to God's pleasure and discretion.

If you were in an open field, would tell your child "now don't fall off that 1000ft bluff." Of course not, it is impossible to fall off a bluff when you are in an open field. For you to warm someone of something, you are implying there is a possibility of it happening.

Why would God warn someone who he knows already will not listen to the warning?

Because He doesn't know if they will respond or not. That's why He's warning them. If He knew they wouldn't listen, He wouldn't bother.

Nile wrote:

Why would God warn someone who he knows already will not listen to the warning?

Because He doesn't know if they will respond or not. That's why He's warning them. If He knew they wouldn't listen, He wouldn't bother.

You don't believe God is omnicient?

bro hmmhmm

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

hmmhmm wrote:
then why are there so many warnings throughout the whole new testament? if the true church , witch i guess is the one paul writes to and all the others, no meaning write to the others who god dident choose. But why bother to write them and warn them if they cant lose their salvation?

because God said so.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

whyme wrote:
You don't believe God is omnicient?

God is omniscient. He knows everything that can be known. The decisions men will make in the future are not things that can be known.

Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it? No.

Can God know what decisions men will make before they make them? No.

Neither of these statements diminish God in any way. They simply affirm that God is [u]real[/u] and [u]logical[/u] and not the creation of men's imagination and irrationality.

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I won't discuss more here. If you want to discuss more, start a new thread with a title like, "Open Theism" or "God's omniscience and foreknowledge".

:-)

dear brothers and sisters,

i have been pondering something for hours now and i would like to ask this question. i perfer to not get super deep into the whole calvinism and non-calvinism debate, but i just have a simple qiuestion for you guys of the calvinism persuasion.

* can an unregenerate man place faith in Christ??

here is why i am asking. ephesians 2:8, 9 clearly tell us that we are saved by His grace and faith is the means (or vehicle) that brings His grace to us. i have heard many calvinists say multiple times that an unregenerate man cannot place faith in Christ and that man must first be born again (or made regenerate) to be able to place faith in Christ. so calvinism believes that one must be born again before one can place faith in Christ. that one must be born again before one is born again. you may disagree with that statement, but that is what you are saying.

please look at the verse again. the person being born again must first place faith in Christ and then God's grace saves the man as His spirit comes in and makes him a new creature. but calvinism says that the man must be born again before they can be saved by His grace. do you see this?? do you see that one must place faith in Christ before he can be saved by God's grace??

please do not try to switch subjects and talk about how you believe an unregenerate man could never place faith (trust) in God. please examine this basic verse about salvation and the actual order of it.

1) man places faith in Christ
2) man receives God's grace
3) man is saved (born again)

calvinism says..

1) man is regenerated (born again, made new)
2) man places faith in Christ
3) man is saved?? but he already was saved when he was born again.

do you see the contradiction?? if one is already regenerated, then he does not need to place faith in Christ and he would already be saved. but that totally denies the clear order of scripture concerning salvation..

like i said, i so not want to get into a ton of calvinism vs non-calvinism debate, i can careless about that. but please stick with this verse and take a deep honest look at it. please do not immediately run to another verse and disregard this one quickly, but stay on this verse for awhile.

love you guys and i hope that you let this simple verse bring forth the joy in your life as it has in mine.

*phil

bro Nile
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Because He doesn't know if they will respond or not. That's why He's warning them. If He knew they wouldn't listen, He wouldn't bother.

your frame of reference for answering this question is your own and not God's so really, [i][b]you[/b][/i] wouldn't know if the person would respond or not that's why you would warn them.so it is not because God doesn't know that He warns to see if anyone will respond, you only say that because that is your viewpoint. Furthermore bro Nile, it is not God who wouldn't bother warning people if He knew they wouldn't respond, it is YOU who would do that. God on the other hand knows the outcome and He warns out of Mercy. There are those to whom Grace has been given to respond and will so do and those who won't. At the end of the day, no man can say to God "i didn't get the memo" so no man will be able to dispute whatever he receives at the end of time be it Eternal Life or damnation. Also it highlight the desperate fallenness of man that due to our hard hearts we can't and won't respond to God except Grace be given us from above as it is written in Jophn chapt 6 and Romans 9.

now as for God warning men knowing that they will not respond to Him: let us look at Romans 1

[b]18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain F8 God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
[/b]

men are without excuse because God has made Himself abundantly plain in what He has made. God also warns and chastens very plainly even knowing we are hard of hearing and slow to repent if we do as evidenced in Amos chapt 4:

[b]1 Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink. 2 The Lord GOD hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks. 3 And ye shall go out at the breaches, every cow at that which is before her; and ye shall cast F13 them into the palace, saith the LORD. 4 Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three F14 years: 5 And offer F15 a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered. 8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel. 13 For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, F16 and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name.
[/b]

clearly our Lord warned here, harshly with various Judgments but the people wouldn't hear...i'm not sure if that is what that nonsense from the pit of hell called "open theism" would have us believe; that God is usure of the whole future. That is a sack of satan's own excrement right there being tossed about and some of the saints are eating it up and vomitting it on others. the word says God is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End so He knows all from beginning to end.

Satan the Lord Rebuke you! This is the deal with Satan, because he himself isn't like God, Omniscient and Omniscience, Omnipotent and Omnipotence and Omnipresent and Omnipresence (thank you Father!) Satan tries to make himself appeal more to us by making God seem more like him by giving God limitations to make Him seem smaller. Satan by his lies and deceit tries to make God seem more like us and makes it seem that God thinks like we do and reasons like we do when we know very well from scripture that [i][b]His wasys are NOT like ours![/b][/i] and we know also from Paul this: [i][b]oh the depth of the Knowledge and Wisdom of God! Who has been His Counselor?[/b][/i] Seriously brethren, who can comprehend the mind of God when we know this of Him: [i][b]The Foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men and the weakness of God is greater than the strength of men[/b][/i]

Dear saints men often come up and say "well such and such in scripture has too many problems, so we belive God screwed up and this is what He meant" Never considering that the source of the problem is NOT scripture but the rotten wicked hearts of conceited men who have the gall, the intestinal fortitude given them by Satan himself to dare and say that God screwed up before considering that the problem may be a little closer to home. Dear saints this makes me mad...wherever there is a problem understanding the word, the problem is with us. That we can't understand why God would do something is just that, WE don't understand, it's not that God has messed up.

How desperately wicked we are as men to think such vile thoughts as these! these are truly from satan...that men would deify themselves and make God out to be one of us by thinking and saying and acting as though God is the one who messed up when we can't understand something. Dear saint should you [u][i][b]EVER[/b][/i][/u] find yourself thinking such vile thoughts, [u][i][b]RUN[/b][/i][/u] to God and seek forgiveness because such are of the devil and to continue to entertain such is to be lured into his snare.

let us be wary of his wiles and put on the whole armour of God so we can withstand in this evil day.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Brother LoveHim,

The beginning of the chapter clearly states that man is dead, and must be made alive by God.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There is no way a man that a dead man can live on his own.

Also this verse preceds verses 8,9-
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

When we were dead, not when we had faith, but when we were dead. This echoes Romans 5 where it says, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us".

But coming back to Ephesians,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The grace mentioned is the animating or life giving force needed to stretch the once dead hand of faith to lay hold on Christ. The faith and the grace do not come from us, but rather are gifts from God Himself.

The beginning of the chapter clearly states that man is dead, and must be made alive by God.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There is no way a man that a dead man can live on his own.

Also this verse preceds verses 8,9-
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

When we were dead, not when we had faith, but when we were dead.

1) placed faith in Christ
2) then received His grace
3) then we were saved

i know that you cannot see what i am saying, but please re-read my earlier post about verse 8 again and take your time and look at the order that God shows us.

But coming back to Ephesians,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The grace mentioned is the animating or life giving force needed to stretch the once dead hand of faith to lay hold on Christ. The faith and the grace do not come from us, but rather are gifts from God Himself.

grace = charis
graciousness, the divine influence upon the heart, and it's reflection in the life; acceptable, benefit, favour, [b]gift[/b], grace(-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, worthy).

lastly, once agin. we are saved when we..
1) first place faith in Christ
2) them receive His grace (gift)
3) are born again and filled with the Spirit

please review the verse closely and slowly withhout preconceived thoughts and just continue to meditate on it constantly. love you brother.

-phil