Detroit continues to go to hell

This is a quote from the pastor of a mainline denomination in my area (from his web blog). See if you can find the prophetic symbolisms in his words. It would be quite funny if it weren't so sad.

On Monday, I am to play golf with about 130 pastors from the Detroit area. It is an annual outing paid for by a large funeral home and a lot of fun. Two years ago I got a hole in one on a short (102 yards, I think) par three. The next year I missed the green entirely, casting doubt on how much skill vs. luck was involved the previous year.

Gee... and I thought this thread was going to be about the Detroit Lions.

Is it me, Jim, or are you putting yourself in the seat of judgement over this man? So what if he is a pastor AND enjoys golf? To paraphrase Jesus... "Whats that to you?"

I've often written about football and Civil War history (not here... I mean in other venues) So what?

Sometimes I even read a book or two about the Civil War, not for spiritual feeding, but because I enjoy it, and love learning. Dont even try to convince me all you do is sit in prayer all day and read the Bible 10 hours every day. I'm sure you have interests that are not necessarily "spiritual".

And if 130 pastors want to get together on the 18th hole for fellowship... I say good! Better than sitting around criticizing each other.

I guess I dont understand your point...

Krispy

Krispy,

Gee... and I thought this thread was going to be about the Detroit Lions.

Is it me, Jim, or are you putting yourself in the seat of judgement over this man? So what if he is a pastor AND enjoys golf? To paraphrase Jesus... "Whats that to you?"

More sarcasm and i really get annoyed when Christians say don't judge. I disagree with that. No i won't argue about it or debate it either. It would be just vain babbling on an on both of us and others quoting scripture and getting heated over it which is ridiculous.

Dont even try to convince me all you do is sit in prayer all day and read the Bible 10 hours every day.

More sarsasm

And if 130 pastors want to get together on the 18th hole for fellowship... I say good!

This is one reason why we don't see Revival.

I guess I dont understand your point...

You would have to be in the Spirit to understand.

Don't misunderstand me Krispy, i do love you brother and have gleaned a lot from your writings but on this your wrong. Attitude, sarcasm and not being able to see with the spirit. It's sad. Again i say of your response. This is why we don't see Revival. I do love you brother Krispy and i don't write with hate or malice or to hurt or to offend you but out of love and concern i write, i just disagree with what all you've said.:-(

Julian...

Actually, brother, my first line about the Lions was humor, not sarcasm.

As to the rest of my post, I'm not saying that these pastors shouldnt be on their faces praying for revival... I'm saying to Jim "how do you know they arent?" So what if they want to get together and play golf?

You see, more than likely Jim took this completely out of context. I coach football. What if I wrote on here about an experience our football team had... and he began to criticize me as only being concerned about football, and not caring a hoot for revival?

He would be completely out of context. Jim doesnt claim to know this pastor he's quoting, doesnt know anything about his ministry, etc etc... yet he picks out one paragraph where he writes about a golf tournament and procedes to pass judgement on this man's life and ministry.

If you dont see anything amiss about this, well... I'm sorry. I see this as the epitomy of a "holier than thou" attitude.

Krispy

He would be completely out of context. Jim doesnt claim to know this pastor he's quoting, doesnt know anything about his ministry, etc etc... yet he picks out one paragraph where he writes about a golf tournament and procedes to pass judgement on this man's life and ministry.

Krispy - you know I love you brother, but I am calling you out publically on this one. First of all I do know the ministry. They are a Church of Christ that runs a bible college that my little sister just had to leave because they have fallen into apostasy and teach the emergent church nonsense over the cross of Christ, sin, rightousness and judgment.

Their college group also goes down to an area where I minister and preaches a false gospel (a way to make them feel they are achieving their social justice goal) to the addicts and homeless that I work with and strenghten them in their sin, causing great harm to the souls of men I love.

I have talked with some of their group, going through the scriptures (including the associate pastor).

Krispy, perhaps there is something in the things that I write that flame the fire around an area that the Lord wants to purge in you? Either that or I have to assume that you greatly dislike me, seeing the absurd (and mean) conclusions that you draw about me.

In Christ - Jim

Krispy - you know I love you brother, but I am calling you out publically on this one. First of all I do know the ministry. They are a Church of Christ that runs a bible college that my little sister just had to leave because they have fallen into apostasy and teach the emergent church nonsense over the cross of Christ, sin, rightousness and judgment.

Nothing in your original post gave any indication that you knew anything about this minister. It was a quotation that you threw out there from someone's blog. How is anyone supposed to guess that you know this man?

I will concede that I could have asked you if you knew this man, but unfortunately because of the way you threw it out there, it never crossed my mind.

If you know this man, and if what you say is true about him, then fine. You should have given us some indication that you have knowledge of whats going on in this ministry.

Or was this a trap all along? ;-)

Krispy, perhaps there is something in the things that I write that flame the fire around an area that the Lord wants to purge in you?

Self flattery will get you no where! :-P

Either that or I have to assume that you greatly dislike me, seeing the absurd (and mean) conclusions that you draw about me.

No, in fact, I was in agreement with you on several topics last week. Or did you forget that already? If there are any issues I have with you I suppose it would be a very critical spirit I sense in your writings at times. Not every little thing is a blasphemey in the face of God. Not every thing any person does is worthy of strong rebuke.

If anyone on this forum has had the wrong (and mean) conclusions drawn about them... it would be me, brother. I've been called everything but a child of God on this forum.

Krispy

Somebody mentioned that monday is a pastors day off. Hirelings get mondays off. Those that are called of God are on duty 24/7!

Yea, God rested on Day 7:

[b]Genesis 2:2[/b] [i]And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.[/i]

But lets sit here and condemn pastors who dare take a day off for rest and family time. (this is not in reference to the guy Jim is talking about... this is a response to hisremnant)

Perhaps if those who fill the pews week in and week out would actually get off their duffs and do some of the ministry that everyone thinks is the pastor's duty... perhaps the burn out rate for pastors would drop considerably.

Wanna know why revival isnt happening? Because the average pew warmer (commonly called "Christian") thinks that its the pastors job to visit the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner, etc etc...

And then we condemn pastors for not being on their face weeping for revival? How can they when they dont have time for it because they are doing what all Christians should be doing... but dont.

I find I have less and less in common with most folks on this forum anymore...

Common sense is about to catch the last train out of town on this forum.

Krispy

PS God didnt stop being God when He rested on Day 7, and a pastor doesnt stop being a pastor when he rests and spends time w/ his family either.

Please read

I also do not post here very much for personal reasons, but I do agree with Krispy. No I do not think Krispy is the all sufficient one, but Krispy is one of the posters' sort of speak that speaks with simple wisdom and the commmon sense as it pertains to life and the word of God.

This is not to lift krispy up nor to defend him, but this is to let others know and understand that we all can be deeply connected with God. You dont have to be a moderator, Leonard ravenhill or any other popular name or title, just simply be used by God.

Now to Post concerning the subject:
None of us need not be so "spiritual but of no earthly good", we need to be able to condescend with men of low estate, high estate, or whatever challenge the Lord will bring before our lives. The key is that we do not subscribe or ascribe to their folly, but God will use us to infuse the Love of God in them.

Now before anyone gets confused with me, do not tell me what God can or cannot do because we do not all know what he is willing to do with us if we"sell out" or place our lives in his hands.

The Lord bless u all.

Another problem of the people concerning the church is that they are like puppets and are not operating in their right mind. We are to be crazy, yes for the Lord, but he is going to use our eyes, hands, heart, and extremities to be crazy with.

EX...I(I) also solicited a brother here for some counseling(just a good ole talk)concerning some issues in my life, not necessarily looking for answers, just a shoulder. By the way, the brother is a moderator or supposedly so spiritual, and I am not afraid to say any of this, be it minded I am calling NO one out, but we want revival soooo bad so we say, but we find it rather hard to function as simple people that God has revealed his love to! I have gotten sick of even much of the so-called revivalists, NOT the REAl ones, but everyone wants revival. Revival is not mechanical nor is it something casual; that will take effect tomorrow per say, the stuff we talk about and the manner in which we all respond is does not express itself as it has been birthed in the same fire as Moses. WE NEED HELP!!!!!!!!

This what the brother told me; "I do not offer counseling unless the Lord leads me". Furthermore, I didn't ask for counseling, also, he referred me to someone locally in the church, as if they can help me even in the slightest with their wonderful theology, games and systems. That isn't not to say they can't , but when ur soul is longing for something of a deep spiritual nature or something out of the ordinary church system or way of conducting spiritual business, then I want the real deal, " I need the brethren ", I need the people of God. Please guys and gals, brothers and sisters lets use the persona, or mind that God gave us to bring him to people. Please no one quote "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ", because that is exactly what i am declaring.

Blessings

:-)

crsschk wrote:
[i]Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?[/i]

Couple of things lingering back ...

"Before and after"

To go back to the beginning here and the replies that followed up to and [i]before[/i] some clarification ... noting the verse above.

To be fair and with some irony perhaps ... From all indications [i]before[/i] the facts presented one would be lead to believe that this had much to do with golf. Just for food for thought and contemplation... What to do or say to the great man of Godly character and thankfully in our present day excellent teaching of Gods word, one Alister Begg? An avid golfer ... Ironically, heard him on the radio on the way in this morning speaking not too little to some of these very matters, of presumption and prejudice and so forth, a search out on the net would find him and todays particular message.

To add more irony perhaps, would have a great deal of issue with that which did come [i]after[/i] the facts were more fully presented, right alongside our brother. That of, if I am not mistaken a prosperity gospel and so forth. In former days found it all a bit chaffing that the church of similar constructs that I attended would put on these golf tournaments and price them so far out of reach for the poor minions like myself that we couldn't participate. It was less some 'worldly amusement' in one sense than the more problematic issue of their teaching, it could be equated certainly to a lack of faith, lack of 'tithing' that we were not 'up there' in their quasi- 'spiritual\\material' domains, this unspoken elitism that was fleeced out from the flock and made them 'rich'.

Just some food for thought...

P.S. Krispy, dear brother ... "This forum ..."

No I do not think Krispy is the all sufficient one

I'm not?? :-P

P.S. Krispy, dear brother ... "This forum ..."

Yea, Mike... that was me blowing off some steam after several threads I've witnessed that have really been quite frustrating from a theological stand point. Kinda glad SI went off line for a couple of days. Gave me time to walk away from it all.

Krispy

Is it me, Jim, or are you putting yourself in the seat of judgment over this man? So what if he is a pastor AND enjoys golf? To paraphrase Jesus... "Whats that to you?"

It sounds like a lot of Pastors are getting together, surely to God they just might affect some people while they are there, maybe the caddy might here a word that is fitly spoken, or whatever, we don't know.

If golfing is a sin, I'd check to see if your legalistic. Legalistic persons do not put their faith in Christ, their faith is in their works and in the performance of others. If they don't line up to their tradition of standards they are judged as evil and then ostracized from the church or from their "inner circle".

Someone will say, "You GOT to have some standards". When Paul was writing the New Testament, he was writing to them so that we would NOT get into a lot of do's and don'ts, after all Christ who took the ordinances of the law and nailed to the cross, would not have created more afterwards because the flesh is still not able to keep any of it.

No, those admonitions were not meant to be kept by the flesh, but to show you and I that these are what those who have the mind of Christ do. If you and I love the LORD our God with all our heart soul mind and our strength and we love our neighbour as ourselves then all that Paul had written down concerning the spirit man should be evident in our lives, it's not a conscience thing that we do, it's automatic, like the term, "second nature". It's not something you think about every morning. We become that virtuous woman in proverbs 31:10.

You'd be surprised where the LORD sends His people, don't limit Him. He may send you into a bar room some day, not as a holy Joe. When Jesus was here according to the flesh, where was He always found? In among sinners. Today He is walking among the whores beggers and homo's. Bidding Us to come and share His love to them, not our standards of holiness, not our way of dress and all the other stupid things that Christendom has conjured up but to share the insatiable love of Christ that Christ loves them regardless of their sin, and while we share this great love, the holy Spirit will be working to convict hearts.

I truly hate the Gospel that we call the gospel today. It's supposed to be a gospel of reconciliation to the heavenly Father. Thats the good news.

It's not, "Oh, I got to keep this, and I got to keep that, I got to do this or do that". Paul said, "You that are spiritual", he is speaking to those that have the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ doesn't have the flesh in mind in working the works of God, it only has one thing on the brain, the good the acceptable and perfect will of God.

It is those that are spiritual that can rightly divide the word of God, they are those who can restore and be a "scab" when a 2by4 is weak. They are those who can properly throw out members that are not moved to repentance when doing wrong and causing the church to err in their error.

Surely those who are disciples according to the word in the gospels will have no hobbies of the world

So it's a sin to golf?

Krispy

Everyone that thinks Krispy is wrong

I say this,

Again, the simplicity of the thread is as follows;

There is no sin in partaking in these things, unless the spirit of God speaks expressly to you or I, there is no true conviction for one to stop these things. It is the same with sin.

Please everyone contrary to Krispy, please stop being so high and mighty, this is one of the many reasons the world doesn't want to hear much if anything we "so-called christians" have to say. W babble on about what is right or wrong, and have absolutely no desire for life to bring to the Lord's table or the sinners table. Please, I repeat with heartache, please stop this madness about what is right or wrong, let God convict u to get u in order, sometimes even these forums are somewhat whack with pharisaical and saddusaical(My spelling is probably OOOFFF).

Not only that, not one of us are Oswald Smith, or any of the other men and women that have gone before us. Are we with our self-righteos selves suppose to sit arounnd the house all day in prayer, in bible and in fellowship with one another? That sounds so hypocritical for anyone here that i know with flesh and blood to attempt to convey except with BALANCE.

Let me clarify further,
I have been around the Church for 20 years and I have seen a whole lot of;
Hypocrisy, self -righteousness, headyness, arrogance, self-piety, self-elevation, self-pride, "walking tight-ropes type of legalistic doctrine, the money gospel, the name it and claim it gospel, the laughing revival, True-spotted(secluded to various towns-small churches etc...)
revivals, self -death antics, charismatic faith healers, snake handlers... you name it.

I have also been greatly affiliated with many of these events, and I am ever so sorry to God, but it was what i was taught at the time, and the tide tended to flow in that direction of my life until the Lord OPENED MY EYES to a better way.

The Lord will WOOOO all of us into his proverbial LOVE as he so sees fit, but Do not think that because you do not desire this or that someone else has to feel the way u feel in order to have a type of God's fullness. We r to meet God in our times of prayer and true devotion, not as ur life can dictate... BALANCE

The Key here is not to be consumed or place anything above the Heart of God. LOVE not the world nor the things of it, Never does it say or imply that we cannot pass the time with moderation.

We go too far saints, we r still in this world. We need to just ask God for his wisdom and understanding. Another issue is that we all read these books, hear these sermons, etc.., ONE cannot make or mold themselves into what God is asking,we cannot inflict ourselves with the burden of these men and women. We r to wait on God in prayer, fastings, and as the ministry of our Lord takes/leads us. If we feel what these men and women that have gone before us say is real then we r to begin asking the savior to help us on this short journey, not give every single thing that is in the world up. One will find themselves picking it back up again because they lack the conviction that comes from the mighty spirit. We cannot convict ourselves, not even in court!

Wrong will be wrong, but every thing isn't wrong or sin. JUst don't put it above GOD's love.

Now, I do believe that a healthy relationship with God as with the ones u love will cause u to want more time and involvement with them, but God would even have us to be of some relevant earthly good no matter how "LOST FOR JESUS" we are. Check that, we can be so lost for Jesus that we r just that. LOST

This is not difficult, Be urself in Christ, not at ease but at Rest

Peace in Jesus Name

Good Post Compton and Truth1

Even our brother Art Katz stated that the secular as well as the sacred is Holy unto a great invisivble God. WE must , please we must hone into God with our common earth sense that he touches on a daily basis.

God is concerned about both the natural and the spiritual. If one hides in the house in prayer all the time or reduce themselves to homage or quaker lifestyles, r u better or holier that others? I believe and think not with Holy conviction.

Furthermore, if we hide all day in our Holy self righteous domains we will find ourselves without souls or without anyone hearing the Word of God . Paul planted, Apollos watered, BUT God, he gies increase, he will make the beautiful flower grow as he births and sees fit. So get up from the secluded darkness and let or allow God's spirit to use u in daily worship....

We r living epistles, read and seen of men

Love

jimdied2sin wrote: First of all I do know the ministry. They are a Church of Christ that runs a bible college that my little sister just had to leave because they have fallen into apostasy and teach the emergent church nonsense over the cross of Christ, sin, rightousness and judgment.

Their college group also goes down to an area where I minister and preaches a false gospel (a way to make them feel they are achieving their social justice goal) to the addicts and homeless that I work with and strenghten them in their sin, causing great harm to the souls of men I love.

I have talked with some of their group, going through the scriptures (including the associate pastor).

Jim - it's not just Detroit.
At the least, you've brought out some good replies.

Compton wrote: I also do not believe any one here at SI uses 100 percent of their life's energy only doing things that would be recognized as ministry activity by other people. This is the kind of unreality that just gets us all accusing one another. Why exalt an idea that is ultimately fiction...we all know that even full time ministers need down time.

If it's a sin to play golf or some recreative equivilant, then I suspect every person here in the forum is guilty of this sin.

Brother, this would be presumption, just as Jim has been accused of presumption - though he explained further in the quote above of why he disagreed with this Pastor.

If sides must be drawn here - I would rather side with those who desire to number their days and see that all that cannot pass the test of fire in the end, the wood, hay and stubble, is that which they focus their lives on or avoid.
Rather than to look at how much "can" we do outside of seeking Christ and His Will for our days - it would be better to see that we can make each breathing moment of life something that will have some eternal value in the end.
Life is but a breath. It is so short compared to Eternity.
A pastor's best day off is in the Presence of God.
Why strain over what we can do, that is not Christ centered and argue over those things - but check our day's schedule and figure into them, what we can do ourselves or with our children, that will cause our homes to be all that they can be and all that we can be, to be the Salt and Light of the World ? Not hiding our light under a bushel, and so forth.
What is this "seeking of Revival" mean ?

If Jim was speaking of the "world that stinks" - none of this would make any sense - but he's showing us the state of the shepherds in this country who hold the minds of the people in their Churches - either toward Christ or toward the world or a counterfeit Christianity.
God had a lot to say about these "shepherds" in His Word also.
When judgment begins with the house of God, it will fall toward these hirelings first.
Then the sheep who didn't seek God for themselves, but followed men.
I don't feel this is just about "golf".
It goes much deeper.

It's lawful for me to do anything that I want to do.

However in saying that, will it profit me to do everything that I want? Of course not.

I am free to sin, but how can I sin if I am dead? And furthermore, if I manage to continue in sin, the wages is death.

I am free to drink wine, but if I love my brother, he may stumble at my liberty. Such things are done in private between you and God. For the sake of the brethren we refrain from anything that would cause one to stumble.

I am free to stuff myself silly with all kinds of junk food, the results of that is obesity and sickness. So how can that liberty be profitable? It's not, so not all liberties are good.

If you've been addicted to golfing and golfing was driving you to drink, commit suicide, yeah I can see golfing to be a sin to you. Therefore, I would refrain from golfing in your presence.

By the way, I hate golfing. I just like the greenery.

;-)

quote

If sides must be drawn here - I would rather side with those who desire to number their days and see that all that cannot pass the test of fire in the end, the wood, hay and stubble, is that which they focus their lives on or avoid.
Rather than to look at how much "can" we do outside of seeking Christ and His Will for our days - it would be better to see that we can make each breathing moment of life something that will have some eternal value in the end.
Life is but a breath. It is so short compared to Eternity.
A pastor's best day off is in the Presence of God.
Why strain over what we can do, that is not Christ centered and argue over those things - but check our day's schedule and figure into them, what we can do ourselves or with our children, that will cause our homes to be all that they can be and all that we can be, to be the Salt and Light of the World ? Not hiding our light under a bushel, and so forth.
What is this "seeking of Revival" mean ?

We need not take any sides, there is only one way...
Let us focus on the state of our own souls, not a so called pastor who we or u might think knees to be on his needs, we all r far from the peaceful shores of correctness. We all lack, especially in this day and age. We need a serious rending so we can all stop fighting and arguing amongst brethren. Just as Paul stated in Corinthians, how- beit we all have a psalm, a word etc.. when we get together(paraphrased, we all have something we want to express..

We need a rending, a rending of the heavens, there is no other way, it will wake us all up to what is truly relevant, significant.

And it will always be in great effort and success to bring God his glory.

Myfirstlove

will not argue with u my sister or my brother,

.Love
EJG

I refuse my sister, to argue with u on the matter, let us just pray earnestly for one another.

My post are general responses yet very precise to us all.
This is the most that I have posted on this site ever because I am fed up with SELF RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIANS, hey I minister as the Lord uses me, but I understand that I am filled with lack, and that I need him to spiritually move on me each day.

I just want us all to take a breath and meditate on Jesus aas well as how seriously lost we are even in our Christianity. This gospel that many of us have been birthed into is weak, it is slothful, it is mechanical, it is a horrid atrocity that has made us a product of its system.

So, with all of our swagger and pride, and the fact that we "DO ministry" my sister, we need to consider that our doings aren't birthed, burned, and scorched in God's fire as it need be. How about we wait on the Lord longer in prayer, in bible meditation, it quiet until we are SENT not our of duty but out of passionate love for Jesus and the lost.

What can u tell someone? until u , me or anyone else has absolute confidence that we have seen God or believed as the scriptures have said. What my sister can I say to this wicked, selfish, immoral, and distrusting world. God will rend the heavens and make our witness TRUE

Love u Sister

No one is judging u, and it is why i stated that I do not want to argue, WE all need help .please hear what is being said, take nothing offensively just hear please
I do not come off a cetain way, it is the way a person perceives, nevertheless I bow to ur perception, but u do not have to keep on defendoing urself, as I was not speaking to u or about u. What isn't fruitful is that u want to be right and u want me to be wrong, . I do not care who is wrong or right, lets look to jesus as i said previouly, we all are so quick to respond, constant bashing, lets just sop.

And this is why I do not post here or anywhere else often, it is often misconstrued. I am a very firm person period, and just like this conversation has turned continues to tell me that we need god to rend the heavens in ourpersonal lives and as a body. Jesus is the only truth sister not me.

Everyone here from my experience wants to be right, everyone wants to think they have a WORD from God. So much confusion and this is no different from boxing in many ways.

Love again

As I replied on last night to Si in general

Compton, I commended u on a post earlier yesterday

This is how I feel, and again I say We need a truen rending of the heavens from God so that all our arguments and needless debates and debacles can come to a screeching halt because not urs or mine, but all of OUR self righteousness is to be right, and unfortunately everyone believes they have a word, advice, a struggle a psalm, a recommendation, but we fight here, yes we scurry like a pack of rats with each other to hone in all of our communicative skill via the internet, or what the knowledge we have attained.

It is all VANITY and VEXATION of the spirit, ALL FLESH no matter how neat and nice we dress it up.

The saints cannot have healthy debates, we need a rending from GOD so that all of our vicious debates and ideaologies are put down to the ashes. I feel like this about this community, and about all others. I am here, i've been here for quite a while and I have very few posts compared to most. But after all of my seeking and spending time even here on SI, I find it particularly futile on how we all approach situations, debates, discussion etc. Although I will say, this can be great for general fellowship or prayer requests or to share our burdens only to some degree, but we take it just as a worldly venue to express our views that are otherwise not heard or listen to by others.

My heart is sincere in my writing, but if this is the case we could not be here, but in prayer and fasting also. This is my explanation on the beginning of this thread, simply too much hypocrisy and as I said self-righteousness and self-flaunting no matter how indirect.

So, a day at golf isn't so bad to the peerson doing it, nor should it be too any of us until we have removed speck and log from the balances of our weights.

Again, r we glorifying Christ, I think not! I find this to be an open place for so called saints to rebuke and scourge one another. We beat the hell out of one another just with our debate. Holiness is what HE calls for!
If Christ be all in all then we should subscribe to him and his wonderfulness.

I sincerely love the brethren becuz this is the one of the mandates of GOD. Love the brethren, love the brootherhood( sisterhood just as much)...

Shalome in Christ

Bless U LoveHIM in our Lord's name

On Monday, I am to play golf with about 130 pastors from the Detroit area. It is an annual outing paid for by a large funeral home and a lot of fun. Two years ago I got a hole in one on a short (102 yards, I think) par three. The next year I missed the green entirely, casting doubt on how much skill vs. luck was involved the previous year.

I recently released this quote from a local pastor’s blog with no qualification as to the meaning or purpose of my post. Many have greatly misunderstood what is being said and some in the name of "christian love and humility", have not only assigned grossly false motives to the posting, but have subtly put forth the very same unrighteous judgment, which they claim to be making a stand against on this thread. I have felt no need to respond to the last 45 or so posts on this thread, and still feel no reason to directly respond to any one comment but only to note what I have learned from reading it through and to give a full explanation of what was meant of the posting.

First off, we are commanded to examine and judge those who call themselves brethren (For those who's knowledge of biblical judgment is limited to what they have read on the back of a christian t-shirt please read 1 Cornithians 5)

What I learned…

To paraphrase a brother in the Lord

[I can speak at any college campus and draw an applause if I say I am searching for the truth but the second I say that I have found it in Jesus Christ everyone becomes angry].

This statement recently came to mind as the Lord has shown me, and will you too if you are honest, the same attitude among the self professed revival crowd. We WANT revival, we WANT to be cleansed of all sin, but the second someone comes on here and has had a personal revival or has been brought to a place where they do not willfully sin and have a clean conscience before God they suddenly become a Pharisee.

The second we might have to look at an area of lukewarmness, compromise or worldliness in our own lives, even if we aren’t directly being confronted with it, we set hermeneutics aside and begin throwing around passages of scripture on “judging” to protect that thing in our flesh that we otherwise would have already crucified, save our love for and careful guarding of the secret treasure that we esteem above Christ.

[I pray many will read this last statement over and over again until it makes you cry]

If you are seeking revival fine… amen come to Canton

If you are praying to be cleansed fine… amen keep praying

If you point out things wrong with our Babylonian church system that don’t effect me fine… amen

If you say you are seeking the Lord to have the log removed from your eye… amen

But if you have experienced a personal revival, if you have been and are being cleansed or if you touch on a worldly amusing or source of compromise in my life, or if you have had the log removed from your eye… then HOLD on just a minute there mister legalist, who are you to “judge” or to claim such thing.

What is meant of the original post…

Does anyone on this site actually believe what men like Ravenhill, Tozer, Wilkerson, Washer, Comfort and others are saying that 85-90% of the members of our evangelical churches are not born again? Does anything else need to be said about the prophetic implication of a group of blind and greedy dogs leading their flocks into eternal damnation joining together the day after they stand in their pulpits and lie to the people and have a grand ole time swinging their clubs in worldly amusement (that is being hosted by a funeral home) while multitudes are strengthened in their sin and bound ever tighter for the day of wrath as they draw closer to death. Yes, definitely ironic.

Lastly for those who want the title changed, sad to say that Detroit continues to go to hell. The people are spiritually starving, those who are dying in sin are being told they are ok and God will make things better for them when he “takes them to heaven” and all this by greedy and dumb dogs who stand behind pulpits every Sunday (and golf at ease on Mondays). If you truly want the title changed then please pm me and consider joining with us in prayer or coming up to do street work with the homeless, gangs, prostitutes and drug dealers.

I would love nothing more then to write Detroit has come under great conviction and is turning to God! Although we are seeing this on a small scale, sadly it is just as in the days of Jeremiah. False teachers preaching a false gospel to those who love to hear it while all take ease in Zion, eating, drinking, golfing, good times! Peace! Peace! If you want to consider coming up here to see what God is doing or join us in prayer, please pm me.

One last thought. Funny how many will ignore a message by suggesting the messenger has a “log in their eye”. What a hypocrites couch this is as it not only shows judgment in and of itself, but it also allows us to sit back in ease because ‘nobody’s perfect”, so lets just all stop “judging” each other. Some people have had the speck removed from their eye, not all professed Christians are living in compromise and worldliness, though we certainly would love it if they were so we could just keep towing the “nobody’s perfect, quit judging” line. I make no claims to puff up of myself; this has nothing to do with me or my post, just a general observation that has popped up on this thread. I just imagine Nathan the prophet coming to David and David saying “Don’t judge me Nathan, why don’t you go take the log out of your own eye before you talk about the speck in mine”

How long can we guard the hidden worldly treasures of our hearts with the shield of “take the log out of your own eye first”

The irony in all of this is that I never said golfing was a sin or that it was a sin for a pastor to spend any time relaxing there minds or bodies. Oh how all but a few missed the point in its entirely, but I believe that to be a good thing even if at the expense of the subtle, false and shameful accusations made against me in the name of “brotherly correction”. In reality, this has nothing to do with me, or the individual pastor that wrote this blog entry as I did not release his name.

To some who dont know me, and would like to say that I am being harsh and judgmental, I am writing this out of love. Please conisder the message and not the messenger. You do not know if I have dry eyes or cry rivers of tears, if I have a log in my eye or if it has been removed.

In Christ - Jim

PS-

I have been reading Ezekial in my personal studies and God gave so many warnings to Isreal that were in picture form only.

I think all of our so called sheppards standing around swinging a golf club and being wined and dined by a funeral home while their sheep perish paints quite a prophetic picture.

I am NOT sorry if that offends you (whoever you may be), I pray you read the below post and take it to heart.

Love in Christ - Jim

[b]"This has been a test of the Emergency Broadcasting System."[/b]

That's all I've heard within my mind since reading Jim's posts on this present page.

From Page One Jim wrote:

First of all I do know the ministry. They are a Church of Christ that runs a bible college that my little sister just had to leave [b]because they have fallen into apostasy and teach the emergent church[/b] nonsense over the cross of Christ, sin, rightousness and judgment.

[b]Their college group also goes down to an area where I minister and preaches a false gospel[/b] (a way to make them feel they are achieving their social justice goal) to the addicts and homeless that I work with [b]and strenghten them in their sin, causing great harm to the souls[/b] of men I love.

[b]I have talked with some of their group, going through the scriptures (including the associate pastor)[/b].

And yet, 5 more pages of judgment in defense of or accusations of "judging this Pastor".

Jim, this part did bring me to tears and to where I did not think that I'd have the strength to reply to you.

Does anyone on this site actually believe what men like Ravenhill, Tozer, Wilkerson, Washer, Comfort and others are saying that 85-90% of the members of our evangelical churches are not born again?

I have been told that, indications are such Scripturally, that when the Lord said "few" 'would find it' and that the Most will fall away - through some sort of exegesis in the Greek it came to 1 in 1000 were saved in the end.
Frightening - yes. "If the righteous are scarcely saved ..."
Nothing to joke about there. How much more sure should our diligence be.
2 Peter 3 would be a head's up enough on it's own, even without all the other warnings.

And then your mention of the "desiring revival".
That was the same question I asked here on pg 3.
What do we feel Revival 'is' ?
I am curious and feel, 39 days is barely enough time to get our hearts in the position to receive - but it 'is' possible. Where is our main Focus ?
There must be "preparation" to receive.
The 120 had 40 days.
God uses all things. This thread may just have been the "test" as written above in bold, to see if we are ready or readying ourselves for what we hope will transpire in 39 days.

After all I am one of them. I am part of the spiritual deficit disorder. We are broken together.

2 Peter 2:17-18 NIV
These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.

I am not one of them sister, I was, but the Lord saved me. Many here have been personally revived from the state you are describing, and have entered into the normal chrsitian life by the mercy of God. It would almost be easier if we were not confronted with the fact that this is not normal, that is sin and failure and wordliness, espeically among the leaders.

But I know that I can’t love them when I am standing on a higher level than them. I can’t reach them and they can’t reach me.

I haven't found that to be true in my life.

(Yes, God is perpetually speaking his word through these very people – saved or not!!)

If you mean He is speaking His word about these people then Amen... repent, come out from her my people, run for your lives... these are all words spoken about them.

Jeremiah 23:14-16
14 And among the prophets of Jerusalem
I have seen something horrible:
They commit adultery and live a lie.
They strengthen the hands of evildoers,
so that no one turns from his wickedness.
They are all like Sodom to me;
the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah."

15 Therefore, this is what the LORD almighty says concerning the prophets:
"I will make them eat bitter food
and drink poisoned water,
because from the prophets of Jerusalem
ungodliness has spread throughout the land."

16 This is what the LORD Almighty says:
"Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the LORD.

Sister, I mean no disrespect to you personally, I am using your quotes as they represent a broad attitude at SI. A confusion between brokeness and defeat. Jesus Christ did not die to leave us like the false prophets and lost sheep. He purchased a mighty victory at Calvary.

Its almost as if we have found a way to equate sin and failure with godliness, and anyone who comes on here with a testimony of glorious victory, or deliverance or a biblically sound word against the dumb, blind and greedy dogs in our pulpits we make a pharisee out of to protect our modern american chrsitian traidtions of sin and failure.

In Christ - Jim

Also,

We are to come out of this, not to stay in it as a way to try and relate in the name of love

2 Corinthians 6
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."

"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."
"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

Love in Christ - Jim

Where do you find a balking of glorious testimony of deliverance or victory? That is a perceived bias of your own bitterness.

I want you to know that I have no bitterness other then that of seeing the enemy keep those whom I love from coming into a deeper fullness and reality of the victory of Christ. I see this all over SI, it is subtle, but is is rampant.

the dumb, blind and greedy dogs

The prophet Isaiah wrote this... perhaps he was a pharisee too?

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, ....

Mike.. this is the crux of what I am speaking of here. There is a difference between brokeness and defeat. The way that this parable is used to justify defeat in the church is at the center of what I am saying.

The pharisees crime was his own self rightousness.. the brokens man justification was not that he was a sinner but that he was broken over it and repenting.

Oh, how we can take this to its logical end and say it is better to be a sinner then holy unto the Lord if we look at that verse the wrong way.

As Ravenhill said [why is it we're more afraid of being Holy then sinful]

If a mans testimony is that he is victorious in Christ, by Christ and through Christ, we still tend to throw out the parable that you have mentioned here.... and relate it with phairseeism. Again, we can take it to the logical end and read 1 Corinthians 5 where the apostle Paul commands us to judge and say Paul was a pharisee (at the present time of his writings) because he thought himself more holy then the sexually immoral people in the Corinth church.

Our sisters original post said "we are all the same" more or less. If that is the case, then we are all damned with the false teachers, false prophets and false converts of our generation.

I believe this mentality to be a stumbling block to revival if mis-applied. Brokeness that does not lead to victory is not brokeness at all, it is false. There is no glory in a defeated life, there is much glory in a broke life. One is a testimony that Gods power is not resident in your life and the other is a means by which He may take residence.

How can we be the same as false teachers and think ourselves children of God. This is intellectual and spiritual suicide.

So what is the problem Mike in all honesty.

Calling out false teachers, that is making the clear observation that the majority of teachers in our pulpits are the same as in Jeremiahs or Isaiahs day? Does this offend?

I hope I am clear on my meaning of this brother.

Love in Christ - Jim

To clarify some of the language on this thread

Isaiah 56: (Amplified)
9All you beasts of the field, come to devour, all you beasts (hostile nations) in the forest.

10[Israel's] watchmen are blind, they are all without knowledge; they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; dreaming, lying down, they love to slumber.

11Yes, the dogs are greedy; they never have enough. And such are the shepherds who cannot understand; they have all turned to their own way, each one to his own gain, from every quarter [one and all].

12Come, say they, We will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink! And tomorrow shall be as this day, a day great beyond measure

In Christ - Jim

I had gained the impression that we were just inches from God and the Catholics would be hundreds of miles down the other end. Then it hit me: In comparison to God’s holiness, we would also be at the other end – inches from the Catholics (but still a bit better, of course).

Not inches of distance, but infinity when comparing children of God with children of the devil... If any man be in Christ He is a new creation. As different as a lamb is a pig. I guess we may be looking at this from different mindsets.

In Christ - Jim

roadsign said

But unknown to me, it also tempted me to view myself as “we” – the better ones and he as “them” – the losers. It built a wall in my mind – the very wall that God has been whittling down. And, to be honest, words can do that too. I am finding that I need to tread with caution in the places (articles/ books/ sermons, etc) where the language tempts me to view “those out there” with disdain. After all I am one of them. I am part of the spiritual deficit disorder. We are broken together.

Over the last several years God has called me to work in various capacities among/under those afflicted with PDD - be it fat or skinny, men or women, saved or unsaved or unsure. But I know that I can’t love them when I am standing on a higher level than them. I can’t reach them and they can’t reach me. (Yes, God is perpetually speaking his word through these very people – saved or not!!)

The other day God led me to pop into a pastor’s office down the street - for no rational reason. In no time this PDD (yes, obese) shared his sense of utter failure, and frustration and his secret desire to go into secular work. I wished I could fix him and his messed-up church, but really I couldn’t. I can’t even fix myself and my messed-up family.

So we shared together our need for God.

“Jesus said, [i]“No servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.”[/i] Jn. 13:15
He said this after washing dirty feet - yes, even Judas' feet- the one who was not clean spiritually.

But what I want to confess more specifically, is that I began realising I had a wrong attitude arising, from the idea I [i]knew[/i] something - not necessarily things untrue or unmentionable - about people with whom I come into contact with on a regular basis, which I had been under the impression only I 'knew' that I was thinking... However, as these - basically holier-than-thou - surmisings were crossing my mind, I began to become aware that without a word passing, the other person seemed to be [i]reading my mind[/i]. :-o (Or, was this the beginning of a guilty conscience on my part?)

I was [i][b]shocked[/i][/b] to begin to acknowledge to myself that my thoughts seemed no longer to be private. (Of course, one doesn't see one's own face at such times. Who knows what it was [i]saying[/i] through my expression and my eyes!) And further, I'd been thinking I had some special gift! (Let me balance this by saying I've been in situations before where I [i]have[/i] exercised a gift, but where I lacked the maturity to lead an other closer to God through that exercise.) It was then that I started digging around for a solution to this not-so-spiritual transparency on my part, since there is nothing I can do about the natural spiritual sensitivities of those whom I meet...

And this is when it began to dawn on me that if for no other reason than that people are genuinely sensitive, especially if they've [i]been through trying circumstances and failed[/i] that the Lord told us to [i][u]love[/u][/i]. (I do not mean that every sinner has an excuse, but simply I acknowledge I also fail and am in no positon to be casting stones.)

I began to understand [i]why[/i] it's His proper wholesome [i]love[/i] which is supposed to be the [u]first[/u] thing a person detects from a Christian's demeanour and conversation - as you pointed out about Jesus' attitude to Judas Iscariot. I have a [i]l o n g[/i] way to go, and yet I know [u]it is the Lord[/u] who is answering prayers that I should be en[u]light[/u]ened by His unmitigated ministrations. Amen.

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

"For it is Written"

Don't you love it?!
The safeguards of Sola Scriptura/Bible Only.

I respectfully bow out ...

me too, though I reserve the right to jump back in. may the Lord bless you brother. I have noticed that with a few people on here that we simply talk different languages. I don't think this is the fault of either party, just communication differences. If we were in person I would love to talk about this more so we could figure "where each one is coming from" and how that effects our perception of each others words.

I have gone back and forthe on a thread with someone who I think is way off the mark only to realize that we are talking about the same thing eventually, just describing it way different.

Anyway, I just sound like a rambling emergent churcher now so be blessed brother. May we all be on our knees and violently press into the kingdom like never before.

In Him - Jim

Jim said

I have gone back and forthe on a thread with someone who I think is way off the mark only to realize that we are talking about the same thing eventually, just describing it way different.