Five Fold Ministry; is it back?

There has been a movement that has started years ago, to where God is bringing back the ministry of the Apostles and Prophets; its called the Latter-Rain.

We had guest speaker that endorses this belief, he considers himself a prophet, God has given him countless dreams and revelations, and has written books of his revelations.

Is real or something else? Should I be concerned?
BTW I go to a Southern Baptist church, most of them don't believe this type of charismania.

Babylon the great whore has grieved away the Holy Spirit along with the gifts and offices by and large. I do not expect to see them return on a large scale to the american church system, only counterfits, as is a fitting reward for this generation that is under Gods wrath.

In Christ - Jim

believeinHim wrote:

Is real or something else? Should I be concerned?

Yes, it is real. The Latter-Rain movement was prophecied in scripture. It has been accompanied by signs and wonders, thereby authenticating it. You need not be afraid of it. God wants all of His children to jump in the river.

There will be pharasaical "fundies" who will argue against this movement of God, but they will find themselves at odds with the Holy Spirit.

Bleesings In His Name,
Tim

how is it been authenticed? Is laughing in the spirit part of this movement? Why would God bring this back? Why does the bible need new revelation? Isn't this just a movement because many believers think church is boring? Therefore, this is new and exciting and makes going to church with "feelings" and "emotions" and this becomes the testing of there faith.

This is a typical "fundie" response.

Tim. Your use of this term is absurd. You have no idea what manner of people you are or are not speaking with on this thread.

"For this reason God shall send them a powerful delusion."

You may consider a pastor who looks at pornography regularly then lays hands on someone that results in them being happy, laughing, barking like a dog, etc, the moving of the Holy Spirit. I call it Gods curse of strong delusion on those who are lovers of pleasure more then lovers of God.

When I see a revival where people are weeping over their lukewarmness and compromise, selling their possesions and giving them to charity and being cleansed of all known forms of sin as a testimony to the power and majesty of the great I am... when I see a man who can lay his hands on people with these results I'll pay attention.

In Christ - Jim

Calling people names like "fundie" does not promote unity or lend itself to opening up a respectable dialog. If you really want to talk about some of this stuff I'd love to.

In Christ - Jim

believeinHim wrote:

how is it been authenticed? Is laughing in the spirit part of this movement? Why would God bring this back? Why does the bible need new revelation? Isn't this just a movement because many believers think church is boring? Therefore, this is new and exciting and makes going to church with "feelings" and "emotions" and this becomes the testing of there faith.

This is a typical "fundie" response. :-)

Have you taken a pair of scissors and cut out every instance the word "joy" is used? And if you think this is all the Latter-Rain Movement is about, then I will pray that the Holy Spirit will come upon your life with power, and enlighten you to all that He is doing in these days.

Blessings In His Name,
Tim

quiet honestly, I know what I am talking about. I came out of the "charismatic" movement. I spoke with other tongues, laying people in the spirit and so on. These things are confusing to people, they don't bring peace. This is a self-edifying movement, are we not to thing of others before ourselves? When I was in this "so-called" movement, people were driven by emotions, not by the WORD! They coveted other peoples gifts, and felt that God must not love me enough to experience these wonderful things! Jimmie said it correctly, when these things effect the body of Christ in a biblical way, then I will stop and listen. Look into the real revivals in the past, when GODS power came upon the church, the people were changed and the towns were changed. people stopped going to the taverns, they began to close! people began to repent and believe. Not run around the church, jumping and singing. whaling bout on the ground like someone convulsing. Can you really imagine the Holy Spirit having people jump around, laughing and barking? Why isn't this spreading around to others, God is no respecter of persons. If people really have the gift of healing, lets go down to the burn unit at Vanderbilt?

This is a pagan movement, because it draws grounds in church, its exciting and fun! There is know Holiness and Righteous in this movement, i could live like the devil and rebuke that demon of lust and be fine for a while.

Hi reformer, your question was strongly on my mind last night, but not exactly the same way you've asked it.

I don't believe the 5 Ministerial gifts 'ever left' the Church. But now, these "titles" are being abused as never before in the Church's History. Which Jesus warned about strongly.

We have the Joel 2 passages that are prophetic, but they do not say that there will be an increase of Apostles and Prophets, but it says -
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and [u]your sons and your daughters[/u] shall prophesy, [u]your old men[/u] shall dream dreams, [u]your young men[/u] shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 [u]And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids[/u] in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 [u]And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.[/u]
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Because we are more than likely in the beginning of those days, we may be seeing a bit more experiencing these things mentioned above, but having a vision or dream does not make one a Prophet - and that is where a lot of the confusion is coming from with this sudden burst of SO MANY Prophets lately.

Apostles are basically Missionaries. Would to God there 'were' more of those around. :-(

And again, this prophecy in Joel goes hand in hand with Jesus' warning of false prophets and teachers [u]increasing[/u] by the droves "in those days".

Daniel said, in "those" days that the Saints will do exploits and win souls to Christ - but Jesus pointed out that Most will fall away, so this is a small number compared to the pre-tribulation numbers presently in the Church - the apostasy is here but not at the great extent it will be when persecution begins. Persecution in the United States and other free Nations will thin out a lot of these Prophets and Apostles or just have them join over to the false Church with their false prophecies. Also as those who do not truly love 'the truth' are given over to the strong delusion that God 'will' send.
In the meantime, the most of these professing Apostles and Prophets are doing nothing more but delivering the Apostasy and deception on golden platters and profiting from it, either financially or ego wise.

The real Christians are always the "few" - through-out the entire time of the Church - past and future tense.

I believe there are some that are just innocently confused on the gifts - those who have had "a word or dream or vision" that 'are' from God, may be confused to thinking they are Prophets. Innocent as they may be - that is the onset of error and pride that leads to a fall.

One can be used in the gift of prophecy and not be a Prophet. Prophets do not just get visions, dreams or words - they are Doctrinally accurate from the beginning. No confusion in their beliefs from the unset. The Lord does not let them be deceived from their first days as regenerated children of God. They discern false doctrine or heretics from the start. No going from one belief to another every so many years. They are the doctrinal ballast of the Body of Christ - and not just dreamers and "seers" or forth-tellers.
And as we saw in Joel 2, 'during' those horrible times, all will be empowered in ways that we presently only see as 'prophetic' at the moment. But not until "those days" are upon us.
He sends His Spirit in that way "at that time" that He says above in those verses, because each verse begins with an "and".
The latter rain folks seldom see that, nor do they combine it with the many verses that mention the "few" and the multitude "going into apostasy" and that "most" will fall away for a lack of "love" and because iniquity abounds.

Personally, in all my years in the Church, I've never seen so many claiming or wanting to be Prophets. This desire to self-fulfill Joel 2 is part of the last days deception.
Either which way you look at it - their problem is with "numbers". Their count is off.

Dont chase revivals, dont chase movements.
Open your bible and Get on your knees and Chase after the giver of Life, who is Jesus Christ.

When movements or people claim to have new revealed truth, Run Run for your life and Just Seek Jesus..

Amen, let us seek the "old" revealed truth as it is.

In Christ - Jim

Amen Poet. I do believe in all of the gifts, but will not attend a Pentecostal church any longer. Now isn't that sad.

I meant to add in my reply above, that also those with the burden to be "watchmen" - can be confused as being Prophets, when they are not.
They could be both, but not all watchmen are prophets, but all prophets are watchmen. But again, God has called each into their Ministerial gift before the person was born, so true Prophets do not go from one belief or group or church to another - changing their minds on things every so many years.
That's important to remember. Some of the most popular "prophets" I've seen have been into heretical groups before and that is not Biblically sound.
When people come to you with otherwise about Prophets - ask them for an example from His Word where prophets are ever tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine and errors - with the exception of Balaam and the prophetess Jezebel.
Heavy stuff and thankful this subject came up reformer - none too soon.
Possibly we could have a revival of Humility and Reverence of Jesus' Words.

Amen Poet. I do believe in all of the gifts, but will not attend a Pentecostal church any longer. Now isn't that sad.

Same here!

Personally, in all my years in the Church, I've never seen so many claiming or wanting to be Prophets. This desire to self-fulfill Joel 2 is part of the last days deception.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with this statement!! :-)

Blessings

take a look at my blog. i posted an article about a man that came to speak. Its tagged as "Who's watching the Gate?"

They believe they are the end time prophets to come, but one big problem, most of what they prophesy doesnt come true. Their excuse is that they are just not mature in their gifting.

great point!8-), several articles I have read talk about this issue. What does Deut.13 talk about?

psalm1 wrote:
HE reigns,
Would you agree that the annointing is closely associated with the prophets?
Have you read in rev. "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" ?
It appears to me from the new testiment theme that the prophetic is equally as widespread as the other gifts but maybe the leadership squelches their use?
prophets are seers they see things in the spirit. Then they report. Not under doctrine or understanding. Nor are they explainers. When God speaks to the prophet it is a gimme that it is doctrinally correct.God is always correct.they hear from heaven. That is why they are hated.
.....David

I wouldn't say they are hated, I think men that fear God will test everything. I think true prophecy would cause men to repent, what we see now is not prophecy and remember they should not add or take away from this book. If you haven't heard the prophecy, probably in a few weeks you can find it at the local christian bookstore.

When God speaks to the prophet it is a gimme that it is doctrinally correct.

So men are saying new doctrine and it is sound? maybe when it was needed, but now we have the Written Word.

.
First of all, Reformer, shame on you. Your original question was asked as if you didn't have any experience with the five fold ministry ("Is real or something else? Should I be concerned?") ONLY to jump on the conversation and people who disagreed with you like flies on excrement with ("quiet honestly, I know what I am talking about. I came out of the "charismatic" movement.") I'm slowly learning those who practice trapping people on this board.

jimdied2sin wrote:
Amen, let us seek the "old" revealed truth as it is.

In Christ - Jim

David danced before the Lord with all his might. That was the Spirit on him! David also said, "He who sits in the heavens shall laugh."

When they came down out of the upper room, the crowd mocked them saying in Acts 2.13 These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

And finally he added....

Ac 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jim, this is [edit: part of] the "old" revealed Truth!

Now to the rest of the posters on this... I'm not condoning barking and such. That is not Bible. But we also need to realize that nothing has taken place in the charismatic or charismania movement that has taken God by surprise. We are not to believe every spirit but to try the spirits to see whether they be of God. I'm not saying all that is going on inside churches today is of God but that is more reason for those of us to try the spirits NOT throw the Holy Spirit out too!! Or worse yet to limit the Holy Spirit by telling Him, "You can do this and this but none of that other stuff in the Bible."

Do we not think that when Christ prayed for the Father send the Comforter that He didn't know deception that would take place? And yet He still prayed that the Father send the Comforter. He also knew that there would be those of His children who would throw the baby out with the bath water and yet He still loves each and every one of us who do believe in the gifts of the Spirit and those who don't; so let us take care to how we speak to one another. We are all God's children.

I can't find the Scripture right now but there was a pharisee I think that tried to tell the others, (paraphrased) "If it's not of God; it will come to nothing but if it is of God... don't say anything lest you be found speaking against it."

I think that is excellent advice for those of us today.

psalm1 wrote:
reformer, maybe i shouldnt say all are hated maybe some or most.Look at Jesus,john the baptist,paul and joseph they were all hated. Look at all the marters they were hated also. For what? Jesus. Jesus himself said "you will be hated"
I am not sure what you mean about the written word.
People that move in the prophetic see things. They may see something about your life or why someone doesnt get an answer to prayer , Smith wigglesworth moved in this gift regularly.
Thanks, David

I think I understand what you are saying now. thanks :-)

What I meant was that the Written Word is good for rebuking, reproof, and edification, that should be enough for to hear from the Lord. i guess I am a little concerned when a person feels that they have some insight on a persons sin life? I wonder if these prophecies people receive, like a book by James Ryle called a Hippo in the Garden, apparently this was a revelation or dream from God. you can look at them at this link:here

if it is genuine and truly from the Lord, i would hope and pray that I would have the heart and eyes to see, if it would be HIS will. One thing I don't want to do is quench the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

First of all, Reformer, shame on you. Your original question was asked as if you didn't have any experience with the five fold ministry ("Is real or something else? Should I be concerned?") ONLY to jump on the conversation and people who disagreed with you like flies on excrement with ("quiet honestly, I know what I am talking about. I came out of the "charismatic" movement.") I'm slowly learning those who practice trapping people on this board.

If you actually would have read some of the thread you would know that I was defending someone calling me a "fundie"! Actually I came to the knowledge of the Latter Rain movement this weekend. Even though I have been part of this "charismatic" heresy when I first became a "Christian". I have never heard of this movement or some of the individuals in this movement until the other day. I was CONCERNED because one these men, who is part of this movement, came to MY church to speak and thats when I found out about this movement and man, after some research done over the weekend. Because I was a charismatic, doesn't mean I know all the things that go on within this denomination!

Thats YOUR fault if you miss understood this thread! If you would have read it you would have known.

"Is real or something else? Should I be concerned?")

Yes I wanted to know if anyone believed in this or if they didn't. "IS IT REAL?" Yes, I wanted to know , because I have heard some men who are GODLY men give a prophetic insight into something, but it always lined up with SCRIPTURE! I wanted to know if others experienced anything about this. Being a Southern Baptist church, it was a little shocking to have him speak! There has been several that seem to believe this and some don't. that is fine. I can't speak for others that want to expound more in depth of there convictions.

If you are going to get so offended by any thread, i suggest that you not post or reply, because there are many men and woman who are far smarter and knowledgeable of the Word than I am on SI. And they are BOLD as lions and will confront and rebuke. And I appreciate and respect that a great deal. Thats why I come on SI, for the encourage, rebuke and correction. I have learned a lot from members who I don't see eye to eye.

so let us take care to how we speak to one another. We are all God's children.

Practice what you preach please, Shame on me, shame on you!

No we are not all Gods children, just because people are on SI, doesn't mean anything,Those who repent and believe on Christ and continue to repent to this day.

BTW

I think the prophecy of Joel has been fulfilled according to Acts 2

Blessings

pastorfrin wrote:
Somethings you all may want to read, very interesting.

http://watch.pair.com/rain.html

http://endtimepilgrim.org/dom.htm

Thanks Pastorfrin it is very insightful.

Ac 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Context
Acts 2:29-39
"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS UPON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and [b]spoke of the resurrection of the Christ[/b], that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR THY FEET."'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "[b]Repent[/b], and let each of you be baptized in the [b]name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit[/b]. 39 "For the [b]promise[/b] is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself

Peter isn't referring to the prophecy of Joel in that verse, he was talking about Christ, that this promise(JESUS) is for you and your children and all who are far off.

.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you and I did read the whole thread.

No we are not all Gods children,

He didn't say love your neighbor if he agrees with you or love your neighbor if he doesn't bark or love your neighbor if he doesn't believe in the five fold ministry or love your neighbor if he is saved. We are to love our neighbor regardless. This is what I meant and mean by we are all God's children, if we treated each other as such maybe there would be more of God's children!!!

There will be a lot who disagree with me, but I would rather keep Christ's commandment in error than be summoned to the Judgment Seat of Christ only to find out I should have treated all men as God's children.

Ac 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Context
Acts 2:29-39
[edit]
Peter isn't referring to the prophecy of Joel in that verse, he was talking about Christ, that this promise (JESUS) is for you and your children and all who are far off.

The whole context is his entire speech is from stepping down out of the upper room to the baptism of 3,000, Acts 2.14-2.39. That would be the correct context because I believe his thesis statement is Acts 2.14-18 and finally his conclusion remarks are Acts 2.38-39.

This includes Peter referring TO Christ as a promise but also the promise of the Comforter which is the gift of the Holy Ghost he speaks about in v38.

This is all Jesus promised. He didn't promise a latter-rain movement, He didn't promise a five fold movement or any other kind of movement. He promised himself and told us He had to go and prayed for the Father to send us the Comforter and He gave gifts to men. And a gift is just that, either you desire it and seek it or you don't. There's nothing in the Bible that says we'll be punished for not wanting a gift.

But the rest man has made up. If you came out of a charisMANIA movement than good for you, please have patience with the rest of those who are still in it. Give them as much time as God gave you. We need to pray for wisdom because it's not all mania.

Many blessings to you Reformer,

We need to pray for wisdom because it's not all mania.

Amen

We all can get pretty passionate about things, that is great about SI. People are not on here because its something else to do on the internet. When it comes down to it, we love to debate and discuss hot topics. I need to remember not always need to debate.

Blessings

If God had given me a choice, I know I couldn't have chose any better. I think it's the most exciting time to be living in!!! If we are not in the last days, we are living in the days to prepare those who will be living in it... our children and our children't children.

I was listening to Carter Conlon's "Living a Life of Double Portion Part 3" (it's from Feb 6, 2005) and he asked his parents to create a notebook of their life. And how we as Christian's need to write down our life story for the next generation. It was awesome.

So what is stopping us?

We are. We are stopping ourselves somehow because I know I can't blame anyone else but me on my growth or lack thereof.

In any way, it's an exciting time!!

To quote Leonard Ravenhill, "A prophet suffers for the people, with the people and by the people" but these would avoid suffering at all costs, demonstrated by their insistence that "Nobody's perfect" when they're wrong and broadcasting it from the rooftops when they're right.

I think there is a distinction between a prophet who declares the WORD of God and a "prophet" who is like some kind of fortune-teller! When I read a prophecy from Ryle, he state in his dream that God has a pet hippo and walking in the garden! The revelation is called "Hippo in the Garden." That sounds a bit silly! But when I think of prophets today and the past, men like Ravenhill, Reidhead, and Paul Washer. There names speak for themselves.

I main point in this discussion was not to get people angry, but the truth be known that is what happens when you talk about something like this. My issue is when a Southern Baptist church, that would denounce and call this heresy, but yet invites a man that is a proponent of this movement in to speak. many southern baptist are now accepting the doctrine of the modern day "tongues" now. Trust me Southern baptist don't have to look far outside their buildings to find heresy, they have enough of it.

:-)

I main point in this discussion was not to get people angry, but the truth be known that is what happens when you talk about something like this. My issue is when a Southern Baptist church, that would denounce and call this heresy, but yet invites a man that is a proponent of this movement in to speak.

Yes, you are right... THAT should have been my main objective but I got off on the wrong foot :( Pray for me.

many southern baptist are now accepting the doctrine of the modern day "tongues" now.

Trust me Southern baptist don't have to look far outside their buildings to find heresy, they have enough of it.

God bless you Reformer, I hope everything works out in your church.

Yes, you are right... THAT should have been my main objective but I got off on the wrong foot :( Pray for me.

Its not a problem at all, we all are real passionate about the God and His Word. I wish I had more friends in my church like you and others.

I'd like to know which SB's you know!! The ones I know here around Knoxville are not very accepting of any use of tongues.

Its coming more from the Texas area. You could probably find an article by a search engine.

God bless you and strength you in these days

found this ironic, considering that Reidhead was kicked out of his Baptist missionary society for speaking in tongues. To be honest, I don't know where I stand on tongues, anymore.

Wow I didn't know that! :-o But there is a striking difference between Reidhead and those T.V. evangelist today, Latter-Rain.

Contrary to this, these Latter Rain types rely on their flamboyance and optimistic statements to hook it their hearers.

I think you nailed the difference between Reidhead and the "others." I agree with you, I would have to stop and take head to men like Reidhead, because I admire them as men of God. The Latter-Rain types are showy and profit of those in the church. Men like Reidhead are not showing and you probably will not here them talk about this gifting they received, they would be humble and their interest would be using to usher in the lost.

Great thought CJaKfOrEsT!!

Blessings

"Let's Love One Another" - Loving One Another At The Expense Of Truth.
by Ed Tarkowski
------------------------------------------------

29 The most important one [commandment] is this: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these" (Mark 12).
How often we have heard these verses quoted in Christian circles as the standard for the life of the Christian today. But it seems many don't realize that there are great dangers associated with these commands when they are not taken in their proper context. These dangers lie, not in what these verses say, but in what they don't say. The common tendency appears to be to take what they do say as the only designated standard for the Christian life without examining the Scriptures in a deeper way. Let us take a look at the hidden dangers in having such a mindset of "Let's just love one another."

LOVING THE LORD OUR GOD IS TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS
According to Proverbs 3, love has a complementary partner:

3 "Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart."
Jesus certainly loved everybody - the Pharisees and the hypocrites and the sinners in the street and also those who followed Him - He died for them all. But He never allowed His love for them to compromise His faithfulness to what the Father said He should say or do:

49 "For I do not speak on my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it" (John 12).
28 ". . . I can do nothing on my own but speak what the Father has taught me. . . If you hold to my teaching, you are REALLY my disciples" (John 8).

One of the things the Father commanded Jesus to say is found in our Lord's words in John 13:

34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By THIS men WILL KNOW you are my disciples, if you love one another."
So, though Jesus said men will know His disciples by their love for one another, He also gave a standard to determine who His disciples really are: those who held to His teachings because they loved Him, and His teachings involved much more than just loving one another. So it is not just a matter of loving one another, but remaining in His love by holding to all His commands given by the Father:

9 "Now REMAIN in my love. IF you obey my commands, you will REMAIN in my love just as I HAVE OBEYED my Father's commands AND REMAIN in his love" (John 15).
In order to remain in God's love, we must obey His commands just as He obeyed the Father's. If we don't obey His commands as our priority, we will not remain in His love and we will be unable to love one another:

9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love" (John 15).

LOVING ONE ANOTHER AND OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES

2 "This is how we know that we love the children of God, by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 John 5).
How do we know we are truly loving our brothers and sisters? These two verses describe what it is to love God: "obey his commands." If we do that, "we know that we love the children of God." One cannot say,

20 "'I love God,' yet [hate] his brother. . . For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen" (1 John 4).
The commands to be obeyed and the love manifested toward our brothers and sisters because we love God are also covered by John, and they hang directly upon the truth of God's word. First, John says,

3 "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2).
But then John brings in the aspect of obedience to the word of God:

5 "But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him."
So obedience to the commands of God's revealed truth perfects our love, and it is the truth that completes God's formation of Himself in us. This conforming us to the image and likeness of Christ is God's main goal in our lives:

28 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brothers" (Romans 8).
So, we can't be conformed to Christ without obeying the commands of God, nor can we love like Jesus did unless we do adhere to the truth. We cannot have one without the other. All of this comes to the point in the second part of v. 5 and also v. 6:

"This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."
So, all of this finds its full meaning in Jesus, who came because He loved His Father and us, but He came and walked, not just in love, but in truth. Indeed, He was and is the expression of the truth of God's love for us all.

LOVING ONE ANOTHER AT THE EXPENSE OF TRUTH IS A DOOR TO DECEPTION

So we must obey His commands to remain in his love. It would not be loving the Lord our God if we didn't. And it is faithfulness to the command that keeps us from going astray into loving one another at the expense of truth. Matthew 24:10-13 and John 16:1-4 demonstrate the results of departing from faithfulness to His commands:

10 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved" (Matthew 24).
1 "All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering services to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not know the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you" (John 16).

"Many will turn away from the faith. . . . The love of most will grow cold." Why would their love grow cold? Because they listen to the false prophets, because they failed to heed all His commands right up to the end. I have watched the "Let's just love one another" gospel for years - over twenty in fact - and it always - always - brings destruction of one sort or another.

Jesus commanded His Church: Love one another. Then He sent the Holy Spirit to empower it to do so. The early Church stood in the grace of salvation filled with the love of God by the Spirit of God. But to them, He was not just a Spirit of love, but a Spirit of truth, as well:

2 "We have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. . . 5 God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit he has given us" (Romans 5).
16 "And I will ask the Father and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - 17 the Spirit of truth" (John 14).

They understood the connection in these words of Jesus:

15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command" (John 14).
So, first we had the command to love Him by obeying what He commands. Jesus further qualifies our love for Him in verse 21:

21 "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me."
The commands of our Lord Jesus Christ are so intertwined that to "just love one another" falls way short of what the Scriptures really say. Even Paul reiterated this same pattern in Scripture:

6 "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love" (Gal. 5).
But this cannot negate walking in truth because we do disagree with one another - quite often in fact. Just loving one another will only leave us loving one another without any way to overcome our differences and divisions. Those differences are, I believe, are a doorway to the deceptions of the enemy, and that is why John brings in truth and adds it to love. In this way we overcome the enemy's attempts at infiltration:

14 "I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2).
So the foundation comes back to God's word: obeys its commands and thus perfect our love and thus overcome the enemy. And John gives other reasons for us walking in the truth:

1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4).
7 "Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray" (1 John 3).

Loving one another alone doesn't accomplish this. Truth completes and protects the love we have for one another and keeps us from the deceptive "Let's just love one another" message of the false prophets. Without truth, we WILL end up hating one another, which is what our adversary wants:

14 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. . . 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him" (1 John 3).
This only leads us back to what I said before, that a Church that just loves one another, apart from clinging to the truth of God's word, will end up doing just this:

10 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, . . . 12 the love of most will grow cold" (Matthew 24).
2 ". . . in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering services to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4 I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you" (John 16).

Love, the truth, knowing God, walking as Jesus walked in the fullness of the Holy Spirit - Jesus talked of these same things as necessary parts of a whole life. Unless we stop and hear the whole counsel of God in regard to one another, we will fall to the spirit of error and be led astray. We need to recognize this situation:

6 "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood" (1 John 4).
Every day there are greater and greater divisions in the end-time Church, and part of the reason for this is that the enemy has brought a very nice thought to the Church: "Let's just love one another." By having accepted such a tempting idea, truth has taken wing and the Church is being split. Why? because it is the last hour, because part of the Church has decided to love without adherence to the truth about experiences and phenomena, even stating that the they are diverse and not commanded by the Lord. Thus 1 John 2:18-19 is playing an important part in the life of the Church:

18 "Dear children, this is the last hour, and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" (1 John 2).

believeinHim wrote:

Oh...I'm sorry, I thought you were out of here?

That would make "jimdied2sin" happy, I'm sure. To be honest, I am not interested in participating on this site, so I am "out of here".

but Latter Rain types demonstrate a belief that they are above reproach (as you have been demonstrating quite well, through your posts)

You are putting words in my mouth.

You make light of things that I (and many others here) personally take very seriously, and then justify it by claiming that by using terms like "fundie" you are just being cute.

Perhaps it's because you take yourself too seriously.

You sir are the one who is demonstrating a Pharisaic nature, by tearing down others with statements that are void of any substance, and don't even allude to being Scriptural.

I havent judged anyone here, "sir". That would be the job of Pharisees.

I am new to this chat site, and have been hammered right up front. You would attract more people if perhaps some of you would show some love. Instead, you would rather pounce on anyone who might differ from you every so slightly from your personal understanding of the Bible.

Blessings In His Name,
Tim

Brother no one is pouncing on you! You came on here swinging. Re-read some of your posts.

I would encourage you not to leave, yes there is some strong voices here, but thats great. Everyone needs to have a little bit thicker skin! Yes, we can still love one another and still disagree. Honestly, I get pretty tired of hearing that statement! It sounds so much like "Can't we all just get along!" Yes we can, but love is not always weak! That easy. Whats hard is when you have to stern with love.

Brother, you will learn alot from this site. I haven't noticed anyone calling names except you! Its worth staying on.

Whats great is that I realized that over time, everyone else was wrong and I was right!! :-P No one on here knows doctrine... Just teasing!! :-P

I have to finish reading my Olsteen book, its full of scripture! 8-)

I can attest that this is true. If you find yourself in a heated discussion and getting nowhere, try PMing your opponent in gracious humility and with unfeigned love...and watch and see something wonderful happen. You will gain a dear friend, and when you meet again in the forum there will now be an unspoken bond of respect ...

May the Lord continue to bless you dear brother.. these words are cause to put many here, including myself to shame. I remember the first time that you PM'd me :0)

(Dont go getting puffed up now either)

love in Christ - Jim

Tim-

You started your first post with name calling

There will be pharasaical "fundies" who will argue against this movement of God, but they will find themselves at odds with the Holy Spirit.

and continued on here

You Pharisees have no idea what you are talking about. What do televangelists have to do with the Latter-Rain movement?

defended and furthered your cause here

I use "fundie" because I think it's cute and humorous. But you are far too serious to see that, I believe.

and yet wote this?

I was hoping that this would be a chat site that would be educational and where people would be treated with love

then for the grand finish, drag me back into it!

That would make "jimdied2sin" happy, I'm sure. To be honest, I am not interested in participating on this site, so I am "out of here".

Oh dear brother, with a smile on my face and love in my heart can I tell you how absurd this is! Know this though, many people on here including myself have been just as absurd at one time (and some may still consider me to be).

As one person said, you came on throwing punches yet claiming you were looking for peace. I hope you do stick around, I am learning a lot here and as brother Paul well said we do ourselves a great honour when we get to know the people behind the screen names, and a bond of respect, if not brotherly love, is built up even if in the midst of disagreement.

Blessings to you in Christ Tim-

Jim

On the topic of this thread - what breaks our hearts is that people like Tozer and Ravenhill had hoped to see our day - yet I believe if they were still here with us - they'd have had it with the amount of self-proclaimed "apostles and prophets" that we have now.
I do believe that the five ministerial gifts were listed in the order they were for a very good reason - but Jesus warned us, that in these last days - that the increase in "prophets/teachers" would be part of the grand deception.
I didn't mean to contradict Paul on the other thread by saying that we need "discernment" more than prophets - because prophets are [should be]the "discerners" - but again, never in all my years have there been so many of those claiming to be prophets, of one sort or another - yet I feel as Ravenhill and Tozer did - of the need for this ministry to be included with the other 4. But such discernment is needed, as never before, to discern which are the true voices.

This posted with prayers by Tozer.

The Gift of Prophetic Insight A.W. Tozer

Excerpted from Of God and Men

"A prophet is one who knows his times and what God is trying to say to the people of his times.

What God says to His church at any given period depends altogether upon her moral and spiritual condition and upon the spiritual need of the hour. Religious leaders who continue mechanically to expound the Scriptures without regard to the current religious situation are no better than the scribes and lawyers of Jesus' day who faithfully parroted the Law without the remotest notion of what was going on around them spiritually. They fed the same diet to all and seemed wholly unaware that there was such a thing as meat in due season. The prophets never made that mistake nor wasted their efforts in that manner. They invariably spoke to the condition of the people of their times.

Today we need prophetic preachers; not preachers of prophecy merely, but preachers with a gift of prophecy. The word of wisdom is missing. We need the gift of discernment again in our pulpits. It is not ability to predict that we need, but the anointed eye, the power of spiritual penetration and interpretation, the ability to appraise the religious scene as viewed from God's position, and to tell us what is actually going on.

There has probably never been another time in the history of the world when so many people knew so much about religious happenings as they do today. The newspapers are eager to print religious news; the secular news magazines devote several pages of each issue to the doings of the church and the synagogue; a number of press associations gather church news and make it available to the religious journals at a small cost. Even the hiring of professional publicity men to plug one or another preacher or religious movement is no longer uncommon; the mails are stuffed with circulars and "releases," while radio and television join to tell the listening public what religious people are doing throughout the world.

Greater publicity for religion may be well and I have no fault to find with it. Surely religion should be the most newsworthy thing on earth, and there may be some small encouragement in the thought that vast numbers of persons want to read about it. What disturbs me is that amidst all the religious hubbub hardly a voice is raised to tell us what God thinks about the whole thing.

Where is the man who can see through the ticker tape and confetti to discover which way the parade is headed, why it started in the first place and, particularly, who is riding up front in the seat of honor?

Not the fact that the churches are unusually active these days, not what religious people are doing, should engage our attention, but why these things are so. The big question is Why? And no one seems to have an answer for it. Not only is there no answer, but scarcely is there anyone to ask the question. It just never occurs to us that such a question remains to be asked. Christian people continue to gossip religious shoptalk with scarcely as much as a puzzled look. The soundness of current Christianity is assumed by the religious masses as was the soundness of Judaism when Christ appeared. People know they are seeing certain activity, but just what it means they do not know, nor have they the faintest idea of where God is or what relation He has toward the whole thing.

What is needed desperately today is prophetic insight. Scholars can interpret the past; it takes prophets to interpret the present. Learning will enable a man to pass judgment on our yesterdays, but it requires a gift of clear seeing to pass sentence on our own day. One hundred years from now historians will know what was taking place religiously in this year of our Lord; but that will be too late for us. We should know right now.

If Christianity is to receive a rejuvenation it must be by other means than any now being used. If the church in the second half of this century is to recover from the injuries she suffered in the first half, there must appear a new type of preacher. The proper, ruler-of-the-synagogue type will never do. Neither will the priestly type of man who carries out his duties, takes his pay and asks no questions, nor the smooth-talking pastoral type who knows how to make the Christian religion acceptable to everyone. All these have been tried and found wanting.

Another kind of religious leader must arise among us. He must be of the old prophet type, a man who has seen visions of God and has heard a voice from the Throne. When he comes (and I pray God there will be not one but many) he will stand in flat contradiction to everything our smirking, smooth civilization holds dear. He will contradict, denounce and protest in the name of God and will earn the hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom. Such a man is likely to be lean, rugged, blunt-spoken and a little bit angry with the world. He will love Christ and the souls of men to the point of willingness to die for the glory of the one and the salvation of the other. But he will fear nothing that breathes with mortal breath.

We need to have the gifts of the Spirit restored again to the church, and it is my belief that the one gift we need most now is the gift of prophecy."