If I speak up am I in rebellion???

I teach preschool in a Christian School. I absolutely love it, except for one thing. The preschool director is horrible!! Everyone in the church and school knows it too, but it's like the classic children's book "The Emperor's New Clothes." Everyone can see what is wrong, but no one has the courage to say anything. Unfortunatly many good teachers just become discouraged and quit.

To make matters even worse... she is also the pastor's wife and the pastor is the school's administrator which makes him her boss. She treats everyone as hired help and orders people like slaves. She demands that people address her as "Mrs...." even during non-working hours. She is mean, stressed out, and just horrible!! And this is in no way an exageration either!! Her condition is so obvious, that the women of the church hold prayer meetings just for her!! If you asked any of these women they would tell you that she has "heart issues." People in the church go out of their way to be kind to her too. Every Monday morning she has flowers delivered to her with notes saying "happy Monday" and such things. She is always greeted with a hug and smile and "God bless you Mrs..." but she continues on her miserable way.

When I first started working there, I told the Lord that I would just put up with her and get through the day, but the Lord said to me "Yes, and your righteousness is as filthy rags, I have called you to be perfect as I am perfect and to Love her." I pray that the Lord would do a perfect work in me and allow HIS love to flow through me. I could write a book about some of the terrible things she has done, but I'd just be giving way to the enemy. Most people choose to ingore her and talk behind her back, others just quit, but I don't want to do either. I truly want to do what the Lord wants in this situation. God gave me the following verse for her, well not just her, but for me too.

Romans 2;1-4
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance

I guess my question is, do you think speaking up to her is wrong?? Everyone just seems to (pardon the expression) kiss her buttocks, but it seems to keep her bound. I'm not talking about attacking her, but speaking the truth to her!! I appreaciate your prayer and advise.

In HIM,

Tina

This verse is the first thing that came to mind after parying about this.

Romans 12:20 (NKJV)
Therefore“ If your enemy is hungry, feed him;If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

It sound like this young lady needs a deliverence of some sort. Have you fasted and prayed over this? Have you interceeded?

Also, talking about the truth to someone about their behavior is not judging them, it is explaining a fact of the situation. If you do not feel right talking to her about this, talk to her husband, the pastor. If he skirts the issue or treats you harshly over this, I would wonder about the Christ like discipleship that is present (or not) in this school/place of worship and think if this is hindering or advancing your spiritual growth.

In Christ

Miccah

There are a couple things to consider before speaking up to rebuke someone.

1. Examine yourself, are you the best person to bring this issue to their attention? If you are not the best person, pray and seek out the best person to bring this issue up.

2. Are you blameless in the same areas? If you are not blameless (ie. there is a plank in your eye) you should concentrate on being blameless before attempting to rebuke anyone else.

3. Is your motivation in love? The bible tells us to 'speak the truth in love' there is only one truth, but when it is spoken without love it might as well be a knife in that person's chest. Make sure that you have the proper motivation for rebuking this person.

4. Pray for this person!

5. Share your concern with others (NOT GOSSIP), seek out the wisdom of God in prayer, and seek out the wisdom of others in many advisors. Others may have a different perspective on this situation and be able to bring light on it. You may not know the spiritual needs of the person you are seeking to rebuke, make sure to seek to understand this other person's situation.

6. Do not confront her, ask her how she is doing, build up a dialogue. See if there is anything in her life that has been troubleing her. Ask if you can pray for her... BE A FRIEND! And if she shuns you, then pray about how best to approach her. If she doesn't respond to your personal appeals, then bring witnesses along and confront her again. Then bring up your complaints to the body of Christ. (this is only the case if you have attempted all other routes to resolve the issues at hand).

The worst thing you can do is talk about her behind her back, or approach others in a gossiping way. You also shouldn't go straight to her husband because it would seem like you're going over her head. The best way to approach this is with prayer and concern.

Here's a very good article about the danger of Gossip: http://www.lastdaysministries.org/articles/gossip.html

Hope this helps... I've made the mistake of rebuking someone without meeting any of these criteria, and it was a very painful time for both me and that other person, and a good portion of our church. Please be patient and seek wisdom, and really learn to love this other person.

iansmith wrote:
The worst thing you can do is talk about her behind her back, or approach others in a gossiping way. You also shouldn't go straight to her husband because it would seem like you're going over her head. The best way to approach this is with prayer and concern.

If she is afraid to speak to this person, and you are suggesting to go to others for deeper revelation, then wouldn't it make sense to talk to the leader of her house and the church?

Talking to others may be precieved as gossip. If you talk directly to her husband, this would defenately not be gossiping. Her husband would have a better path to sepak to her on certain subject then anyone else would have. He already has a door opened for him in this relationship, being her husband and all. And as the leader of the home, it is his responsibility to look out for his wife's spiritual health.

On top of this, he is the pastor or the church. Lets say that it was not his wife that was the issue in the school, but another administrator, would you not take it to the pastor anyways?

I do agree whole heartedly with praying first about this. I would also suggest that you fast as well. Follow what the Lord tells you to do. You will never go wrong with that :)

Miccah,

There is a HUGE difference between discussing someone's spiritual needs and gossiping about that person. But practically, they can look exactly the same... it's all about the heart and motivations.

When I said 'The worst thing you can do' I was specifically talking about this difference (as previously stated in the points listed).

As far as talking to her husband directly or not, I think the most important thing is how she percieves it. From what little I know about female office scuffles (working in a Fortune 50 company for a couple of years) the impression that an action can give is oft times worse than the actual actions.

You may percieve that going to her husband is the best course of action, she may percieve it as an underhanded attack on her and her marriage. It is important that you're not only blameless, but that you're also percieved as blameless, especially if you love the person you're trying to help.

If you don't love them, then to heck with what they may or may not percieve... you get what i'm saying?

iansmith wrote:
Miccah,

There is a HUGE difference between discussing someone's spiritual needs and gossiping about that person. But practically, they can look exactly the same... it's all about the heart and motivations.

When I said 'The worst thing you can do' I was specifically talking about this difference (as previously stated in the points listed).

As far as talking to her husband directly or not, I think the most important thing is how she percieves it. From what little I know about female office scuffles (working in a Fortune 50 company for a couple of years) the impression that an action can give is oft times worse than the actual actions.

You may percieve that going to her husband is the best course of action, she may percieve it as an underhanded attack on her and her marriage. It is important that you're not only blameless, but that you're also percieved as blameless, especially if you love the person you're trying to help.

If you don't love them, then to heck with what they may or may not percieve... you get what i'm saying?

Completely.

Perception is important, but the truth hurts sometimes, and this will hurt.

I do agree that regardless of how this is approached, it should be approached in love.

Miccah

Blessings to each one of you for your thoughful responses. Although you each raised differnt points, I feel like the Lord has brought each one to my attention durning different times of seeking Him.

Docras raised an interesting point about the wife being a reflection of the husband. In the view of many, she runs the show and her husband is a big push over, but I feel like it's much much more than that. I feel like she is spiritualy sick, starving and naked and her husband choses to look the other way! With my eyes I see her as a horrible, yucky person, but through the Lord's eyes, I see a broken, hungry and wounded person who He desired to bring to Himself.

I do not attend the church because there are many things wrong and it is true that the school is not run very well either, but I know the Lord has me and others there who desire nothing more than to lay down our lives for the children that God has entrusted to us.

In HIM,

Tina

One of the things I realised when I left my husband after nearly ten years, was that I had been lying about our marriage to the church and the world.

but the Lord said to me "Yes, and your righteousness is as filthy rags, I have called you to be perfect as I am perfect and to Love her." I pray that the Lord would do a perfect work in me and allow HIS love to flow through me……. I truly want to do what the Lord wants in this situation. God gave me the following verse for her, well not just her, but for me too.

Tina, I am blessed by the way you are responding to this situation: allowing the Lord to build your own faith and character through it.

Most people choose to ignore her and talk behind her back, others just quit,.

but I don't want to do either

No doubt your sensitivity to the Spirit will keep you from reacting with the typical knee-jerk reflex: fight or flight. (which includes gossip) You will respond wisely and cautiously.

People in the church go out of their way to be kind to her too. Every Monday morning she has flowers delivered to her with notes saying "happy Monday" and such things. She is always greeted with a hug and smile and "God bless you Mrs..." but she continues on her miserable way.

it's much much more than that.

I feel like she is spiritualy sick,

Might I suggest that really, it is an entire system that is sick, and the people are all part of it. When I read your description of this lady and all those woven around her life, I envisioned a mass of threads – all tangled up in a big ball. It isn’t easily unravelled. If you try to pull away one string and straighten it up, you find that the other end is tightly knotted in the big mass. And if you go after the big mass, you just make more tangles and find yourself caught in the web. Soon you become frustrated and exhausted, and no closer to the solution.

This reminds me of Jezebel and Ahab, and the rest of Israel – one humungous mess! Where does one start? Thankfully we have that story in the Bible – to show us how God deals with situations like that. By the way if God does call you and empower you to confront the issue, I trust that you, like Elijah, are prepared to be labelled as the “troublemaker” - even by those who are doing the complaining.

Tina, not long ago God led me and a sister believer to deal with something like this – not a church setting, and not nearly as complex, but still, the pattern was the same. Through divine circumstances the two of us were able to offer the “guilty pair” an opportunity to both accept grace and offer grace. Funny, though this couple typically argued together, when it came time for one or both of them to break the damaging behavioural pattern, they chose to unite together in resistance! Again, sinful, dysfunctional patterns are so strong that people would rather hang on to them than change a life-long pattern.

If we keep in mind that all those who are caught in the web are really victims – entangled with sin, we can be merciful to them as a whole, and not inclined to point fingers at one or two of them, as if THEY are the culprits. (that tends to leave the rest off the hook!)

May God give you wisdom and insight as you seek him. And may he protect those dear children at the school who no doubt are touched by this “thing”.

Diane

Hi Tina, to add to the advice that has already been given, I just thought of a bible verse that might help you. I don't know if someone already mentioned this (haven't read the other posts), but here it is. God bless!

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
(Mat 18:15-17)

Tina, it just occurred to me that in spite of my rather lengthy post, I still neglected to address your original question, and I also ended my post with a “down” note.

I have become convinced (and would love to be proven wrong) that God is not in the business of fixing up ‘sick” systems but of redeeming his own from out of those fires. And perhaps that it the most optimistic outlook to have. Jesus said, “The road is narrow and FEW find it…” Indeed, few desire Christ over and above the “system”. It is a very costly choice. After all, you can’t put your faith in both Christ and a religous system at the same time. So the hope I would like to insert here is that God IS no doubt calling some and transforming them to his image. His Light is indeed working in the darkness, though, it may be occurring down in the “soil” of the hearts. (you are an example)

Observing from past experience, I suspect that as members (even a few) see through the masks, walk in the Light and decide not to play the game, Rev and his Mrs will take to their heals. However, down the road the same drama will be repeated if the members do not see their own part of the problem.

I am becoming convinced that believers best use their energy to strengthen and encourage God’s tender children rather than engage in the hopeless mission of swatting at the monsters – which may include the denominational headquarters (In your case quite possibly a sleeping giant that hates rocking boats and boat rockers)

And about your original question: If you launch out in your own steam to confront the problem, you might indeed be rebellious against God’s best for you. You may find yourself facing a giant that tramples all over you. “Do not throw your pearls before swine… “ Ahh…. fools trample the pearls and then eat you up too.

”Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.” Proverbs 23:9

”Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a pestle, you will not remove his folly from him.” Proverbs 27:22

I've learned through some hard knocks that these verses tend to be true. Still when God calls us into the fire, he will also be our shield.

Diane

take one or two others along with you,

Diane

How do you have a problem with that?

One of the things I realised when I left my husband after nearly ten years

Diane,

You said some very important things that I feel the Lord is trying to show me.

roadsign wrote:

Might I suggest that really, it is an entire system that is sick, and the people are all part of it. When I read your description of this lady and all those woven around her life, I envisioned a mass of threads – all tangled up in a big ball. It isn’t easily unravelled. If you try to pull away one string and straighten it up, you find that the other end is tightly knotted in the big mass. And if you go after the big mass, you just make more tangles and find yourself caught in the web. Soon you become frustrated and exhausted, and no closer to the solution.

When was the last time you visited the church?? Unfortunatly, this describes too many churches in America today. The condition has become almost textbook for the modern American church.

roadsign quote:

I have become convinced (and would love to be proven wrong) that God is not in the business of fixing up ‘sick” systems but of redeeming his own from out of those fires. And perhaps that it the most optimistic outlook to have. Jesus said, “The road is narrow and FEW find it…” Indeed, few desire Christ over and above the “system”. It is a very costly choice. After all, you can’t put your faith in both Christ and a religous system at the same time. So the hope I would like to insert here is that God IS no doubt calling some and transforming them to his image. His Light is indeed working in the darkness, though, it may be occurring down in the “soil” of the hearts. (you are an example)

This is so true!! When I first started working at the school, I felt like God had me there to help get things in order... ha ha! It sounds so foolish now. But I really thought that people would see there error according the the WORD of GOD and be like "oh yeah why didn't we see that before?" But instead they gave excuse after excuse for foolish behavior!!

About a year ago this time, I was praying for the school and church when I got a very strong word. Durning my prayer time, I had a very clear vision. One of the "key players" in church came to me and said "Tina, why don't you come to our church?" My response was not mine, but the Holy Spirit's and was "Becasue I love Jesus Christ more than Pastor. You must remove pastor from his pedestal or the Lord will. You have all fallen into idolatry." At first, I was frustrated because I didn't know what to do with this word from God. But He said very clearly to me that He has shown me to pray and to interceed because a day is coming when the whole system is coming down. Many will perish, but for the few I am to show HIS radient light and point the way to HIM.

I'm glad I posted this tread because I've been encouraged by many of the posts, but mostly because it has caused me to reflect on what the Lord has shown me when I keep my face set toward HIM.

In HIM,

Tina

*edit* sorry for the size! I can't correct it.

He said very clearly to me that He has shown me to pray and to interceed because a day is coming when the whole system is coming down. Many will perish, but for the few I am to show HIS radient light and point the way to HIM.

Tina, you have no idea how central your words are to the direction that God has been nudging me towards. In fact they point to the overall direction for my recent postings: God is in the business of building his Church, and he has called us into THAT ministry: reconciliation. Tina, I suspect that some day those “few”, who now are now watching you through the corner of their eye, may seek you out – whey they are ready to seek God’s better way. But they will need a lot of flesh-and-blood mercy and forgiveness.

After all, what could be more excruciating than looking back over one’s past choices – and realizing that what seemed so right at the time actually was dead wrong.

Keep that big bucket of grace on stand by!

Diane

One of the other things you said which has stayed in my mind, is the idea of the pastor looking the other way. This reminds me of the surprise I got when I understood Jesus' words here: John 10:12
"But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.

This is a very interesting point Linn. I never thought of this especailly towards his wife.

Tina, I suspect that some day those “few”, who now are now watching you through the corner of their eye, may seek you out – whey they are ready to seek God’s better way.

This is my only desire!

One of the most SHOCKING, and liberating truths is, it's never about that other person. Oh we can struggle for years and years and years with a difficult personality. But actually they are the sand paper or the hammer used in our own life to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ.

Katy, all I can say to your entire post is... AMEN!! You brought some much needed balance to this thread! I'm sure 99.999% of my frustration is my flesh feeling that rough sandpaper rubbing away!! I want to pray because of GOD'S BURDEN, not my discomfort!!! God can give us a genuine burden, but if not kept in proper prespective, it can become our burden!

Tina,

I do not have the time to read all the posts on this thread, so pardon me if I am being repetious.

As I read your concern, your frustration comes through very clearly. I understand the situation, I think. So I would like to make a few observations, suggestions. They are not given in order of importance but as they occur to me.

Have you ever privately asked her if there is something bothering her? What stress is she experiencing [that is causing her to be so obnoxious, but do not tell her she is]? You might could say you noticed she appears to be stressed....

Angry people cannot be reasoned with...is she angry? Anger is sin, just like adultery, murder...how does your brotherhood deal with these sins?

Study 1 Corinthians 5:7-13 carefully and prayerfully. It just might address the issues you are facing at your school. You do not have to tolerate strife. It acts as a leaven.

Backstabbing, backbiting, hypocrisy is not something the church ladies ought to be engaged in. This also is not loving: they need to repent of this [i]before[/i] any confrontation is attempted.

Yes, Tina, I think confrontation is essential BUT you must do it as a sister who is concerned about the eternal welfare of another. You must know that if a sin issue is involved here, there will be a royal battle because the deviil is NOT a gracious loser and he fights to kill! Be prepared for a royal battle!

Blessings,
ginnyrose