House Church Movement Growing

Hi JulianSims...

Thanks for the article! Krispy won my esteem for the House Church movement quite a long time ago! Perhaps the next great move of God will not begin in established Church cathedrals -- but inside the homes of believers?

:-)

I wonder, if we spent as much time and effort following the example of the early church on:

Acts 2:41-47
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. [43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. [44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common; [45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. [46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, [47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 4:31-35
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. [32] And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. [33] And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. [34] Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, [35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Lets see, Jesus was crucified, as was Peter, all the disciples but John, who was only boiled in oil, were martyred. Then we have Stephen who was stoned, Paul beheaded and the untold number of early Christians who were martyred in every way you can think of and many ways we wish not to, and all as sheep led to the slaughter.

I wonder, why do we not emphasize following these examples, why only emphasize meeting in our homes?

Maybe if we did, we would discover what being a Christian really is, hey and we might even become a martyr.;-)

In His Love
pastorfrin

While to a degree I can understand why some people would leave larger congregations in favor for smaller, close-knit fellowships based in one's home, the downside I see is that unless these home-churches are connected by way of some network, the independence it creates can easily lead to self-imposed segregation and/or cult-like behaivior i.e., who are the authorities within the group? Who are they accountable to apart from themselves? :-(

{totally edited to include verses and be more thorough}

Here are my beliefs regarding the network of authority within house churches. To the best of my knowledge this is the system of inter-church government practiced since Paul's time.

[b]The Network of Reverential Authority amongst Home Churches[/b]
by Michael Spotts:.

An apostle or team of apostles, sometimes called "missionaries" or "church planters", are separated by the Spirit and typically ordained by elders. [1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11-12] These travel about evangelizing and teaching fundamentals. [Acts 13:2-4 ; Acts 15:35-37] Those who receive the message and profess faith in Christ, and demonstrate apparent first fruits of the Spirit are considered to be added to the church. [Acts 2:40-47]

Prior to, or instead of, the establishment of a dedicated meeting place, this new church body may gather in an individual's home, or meet from house to house, in keeping with hospitality. [Romans 16:3-5; Acts 2:46-47]

Apostles may themselves establish elders from amongst the new church body [Acts 14:23], or may appoint another elder to do so, such as when Paul directed Titus to set elders over the Cretans. [Titus 1:5]

The apostle has special authority over those bodies which he "births", yet this authority comes by way of due reverence, not heavy-handed control. [1 Corinthians 4:14-16] This is seen in the relationship Paul had toward the Corinthians, regarding whom he declared, "you have not many fathers."

As new church bodies develop and begin sending out other apostles, the network of reverential authority grows relative to the maturity and faithfulness of elders, and guided by the supreme authority of the word. In the case of disputes, elders of a church may resort to the counsel and authority of those apostles and sending churches that preceded them. [Acts 15:2-27]

Example:

The elders of Home Church A send out Apostle A. He plants Home Church B, perhaps even in the same city as Home Church A.

When Home Church B is ready, apostle A - perhaps with the elders of Home Church A - ordain elders in Home Church B. Apostle A is then free to go or stay as the Lord leads.

If a dispute, confusion, or trial arises in Home Church B, they may turn to Apostle A and the elders of Home Church A for guidance, discipline, and help.

When Home Church B is ready, the elders may send forth Apostle B to continue the cycle.

Hope that helps.

I can see where there are many concerns. But how many are bassed on the paranoia of pastors of corporate churches? Their income and dynasty is at stake. There is only room for one king in most of these settings, and his name is Pastor Doe.
My kidneys are part of my body. They will never be my knee joint. They have a completely different location and function. Yet both are truly part of the same body.
So who will lead these home churches? Why the Holy Spirit of course. He is well able to do exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think. You do trust Him to do so, don't you.
I have written articles on the blite of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist ministries in the local church. I think that with this wonderful surge of home churches, we will see many more of these emerge with respect and honor...but not as kings to rule over the home churches. They will be resources of health and vitality that the Holy Spirit will use. We must remember that Jesus explicitly told his disciples NOT to "lord it over them as the gentiles do". No monarchy please. Well, we all know that did not last very long.
Yet, there are so many who shiver at the thought of something living that they do not control. My brain controls my kidneys and knees, and does so real well. What my knees are doing is none of my kidney's business.
It's the same with Christ's church. It is His church. He alone is the Head, and He does a real good job of keeping "His own" close to Him.
I have not meant to sound sharp here. But every great reformation has come from studying our history and going back to our roots. Jesus did not institute an imperfect church to be perfected by man over 2000 years. It's high time we started following Him and His Holy Spirit and quit fretting over who will be in control He is in control. Get over and get on with it.
BTW, some of the most wonderful church experiences I have ever had have been in home fellowships with just ordinary people gathered with our Extraordinary Savior. Alleluia.

In Him,

"O"

i think the House Church Movement will grow even larger once the American economy really hit's the wall (we're already in the skid), and the use of the more massive edifices we've become used to are no longer cost affordable ...

i know from my own experience of larger churches currently closing down prayer nights because it's costing to much in utilities to keep the doors open as they once did when they were smaller ... For one thing tithes and offerings are dwindling ...

i often wonder if Osteen will be able to sustain The Compaq Center once the U.S. economy hits crisis, and "the people" whom he said "he depends on" at his opening speech of the place no longer have the capital they once had ... i thought that was a very telling statement when he said that, and shuddered that he didn't say he depended on our Lord for it's sustenance ...

i think we are shortly to see a whole lot of empty Mega & cathedral type churches in America simply because they'll not be able to be afforded by thier congregation, and many will be foreclosed on because of having such massive mortgages ... Aware pastors right now are on a real mission to get those mortgages paid off, and are digging as deep as they can into the pockets of their flock while the "getting" is still good ... :-?

Bro Krisp you wrote;
"House churching, tho, is about a lot more than buildings. In fact, thats hardly a blip on the radar screen."

--- Bro i know this, primarily from reading many of your past posts regarding your motivation in this area :-D ...

You bro, and others as yourself, have "chosen" (pro-active) to assemble in a "house", but i'm talking from the perspective of our/your brethren who'll be "forced" (re-active) into to it ... If you wanna see a "large edifice attending" saint look like a deer caught in headlights, tell them that there's coming a time that they may be worshipping in the home of another saint (Acts 2) because "the big building" will be closed ... What no comfy seats, no big screen tv's, no air conditioning, no robes, no pomp or circumstance? ...

Perhaps those who are house churched now will be used of our Lord to help those who may be forced to ... That is if the "house churched" haven't forgotten that the "institutional churched" are still their brethren ... You know how "separatist" we Christians can be one toward another for one reason or another :-? ---

A little history of Miccah and house church

I have been meeting and holding "house church" for a little under 3 years. As a house church, we meet in a very small and intimate setting that allows for us to really dive into each others lives. Accountability is direct. It is hard to not be accountable to eachother since we meet with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ every week.

Our church consists of multiple house churches that meet in common on Sunday morning for worshiping The Lord. Not one of these is independent of one another, but interconnected. As someone stated here before about their kidney (excuse the butchering of it :) ), all different parts of the body are needed for the body to function properly, and all are equal in the Lords purpose and use.

The Lord moves mightily in both of these settings.

As in [u][b]Acts 2:46[/b][/u]

"So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house..."

We meet in the home together, and in the church as one body of the Church. This is how the Church was "held".

I have personally been invloved in this movement for sometime. [u]I would like to point out that by no means am I against traditional church as most people know it.[/u] I have been lead to do different, but as important for the Lord. Most everyone I know that has moved from a traditional church to a house church has grown expediential in Him. All share, all pray, all get prayed over, all use the giftings and ALL glorify His name.

Personally, I love it. I thank God for opening my eyes to this. One of the better things that I have realized after moving from traditional church to a house church is that it does not "stop" after leaving. The focus on Him continues day in and day out, as it should anywhere, but sometimes gets lost in traditional settings, but not all traditional settings mind you.

Another great aspect about house church is that you can intermingle between the house churches. Doors are always open for everyone. Sometimes we don't hold ours, and go to another house church. All is for His glory.

What a wonderful God we have.

Miccah

Who are they accountable to apart from themselves?

Isn't this the case within traditional denominations? They are only accountable within themselves? And isn't the accountability usually only with some distant overseer figure, who pretty much is just called in when things go very sour... and often past being fixed? And they don't traditionally hold one accountable for things such as pride. Only gross outward sins are checked.

James was head of the Jerusalem church, he over saw those that were dispersed abroad.

While a popular interpretation of who James was, there is no evidence of this in the Scriptures. The New Testament church knew of no other head than Jesus Christ. James was simply a resident apostle at the church in Jerusalem. At one point, he appears to have been the only apostle there. But this does not make him head of it. Jesus alone is the head of the church, both universal and local.

If there was someone teaching a false doctrine, who would hold you or other accountable? Thats my point, I could start a house church and teach what I want, who will who me accountable?

The entire community of believers! Jesus said if anybody sins, the believer who catches that individual in sin is to go to him in private and rebuke him. If he refuses to listen to this brother, bring two or three others. And if he won't listen to them, let it be known to the church. And if even that won't work... then let him be to the church as a tax collector and sinner!!! THAT is accountability.

If I am the acting pastor of the fellowship, then who do I go to?

In New Testament churches, there is never just one pastor in any given church. So this isn't a problem.

The Apostle Paul governed all his churches.

Not in the traditional sense as you probably think of it. Paul did oversee the churches that he had relations with. However, these churches were free to accept or reject his oversight. In fact, in 2 Corinthians Paul is in jeopardy of losing his ability to oversee the church, because some other apostles (false ones) have come into the church and have begun to turn the church against Paul. Paul "governed" the churches he had actual relationships with. He modeled Christ to them and gave his input from time to time as was needed.

I believe in having a a doctrinal statement all house fellowships should adhere to, if there is not, then I would be afraid to go to anyones house that acted like an island unto themselves.

While there is nothing wrong with having a statement of faith, who says such is a necessary thing? The first century church never developed any sort of official statement of faith. That's not to say there were not essential things that were taught and expected to be believed e.g. Jesus is Lord. But as it is, developing creedal statements of faith hasn't been a safeguard against heresy. In fact, the most "creedal" churches out there today are full of heresy. E.g. The Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, PCUSA, Methodist, etc.

James was a very key figure in Jerusalem: Acts 12:17, 15:13,21:18, Gal.2:9

No doubt. Such is evident. However, being a key figure is a far cry from the monarchical bishop role he is often interpreted as being. Monarchical bishops (or modern day lingo, Sr. Pastors) are later historical developments.

Also to note it is not proven that James was not a Apostle. He rejected Christ in John 7:5 and later believed in 1 Cor.15:7 He has never been named an apostle, but a close associate. Gal. 1:19

Actually, Galatians 1:19 goes beyond simply calling James a close associate. Gal 1:19 calls him an apostle:

Gal 1:19 (NASB) But I did not see any other of the apostles [u]except[/u] James, the Lord’s brother.

Paul recalls his visit to Jerusalem and says he did not see any other of the apostles, with the exception of James, who is the Lord's brother.

:-)

i see a big contrast in what we would call "home fellowship" today and what the New Testament church was like. I personally don't have a problem going to a church building as long as it is a biblical run church.

Yeah, to me I don't care one way or the other if folks meet in homes or in a more traditional sanctuary. Frankly, it seems the New Testament church met wherever they could find a place to meet. Most often they met in homes, but they also met in public places, schools, etc.

There is a a group that considers themselves the true church in California. they meet in homes and follow the Acts style church. But they are a cult and are filled with hatred.

Cults exist and can multiply in homes just as well as traditional denominations. Jim Jones type figures don't discriminate!

Just a friendly suggestion, but don't let your experience of this group give you a negative picture of the so-called "house church." Personally speaking, I've met loonies in the house church movement. But at the same time, I've met some of the most balanced believers one could hope for. Same goes with traditional churches as well.

Personally speaking, as far as house church "networks" go, those associated with the NTRF (www.ntrf.org) have been the most balanced I have come across yet. They probably are closer aligned with your theological tradition as well, being very "reformed" in most of their doctrines. Most the pastors/guest speakers I have met associated with these groups have some sort of baptist/reformed theological seminary training on top of it. Granted, I'm not personally "reformed" in my theological tradition, but kudos to those who are :)

Another great thing about house church is that for the most part, only very strong believers (in Christ) will attend. Most luke-warm believers or Sunday morning quarterbacks will never set foot in a house church. Why? Well, because there is too much accountability and direct talks about your walk.

What sometimes people fail to realize about house church folk is that they are there by choice. Most luke-warm believers or non-believers usually do two things when confronted with the directness and straight forwardness in house church; either they leave and never come back (to house church), or they are drawn in by the Spirit. There is never an attack on a non-believer or luke-warm believer, but just the direct one-on-one conversation, in a "safe" setting, that allows other believers to help teach the truth. You usually don;t get this type of intamacy in a goup of 1000, you do in a group of 6-12 (not including kids)

[u][b]Luke 6:43 (NKJV)[/b][/u]
"[ A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit ] “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit."

Most believers are looking an intimate experience with the Lord. Most believers will not stop in their persuit the Lord, and will not stop until they find it, and will continue to seek more of it once it is found. Iron sharpens iron, and from my experience with house church, the sharpening never ceases.

A lot of thought goes into making a break from a traditional church and moving to a house church, and I would stress that anyone thinking about moving to a house church pray and fast before undertaking this move. Let the Lord lead you where He wants you to go. Don't just go where you or others think may look (excuse the term) "sexy".

As for cults. I think that there needs to be a distinction between cults and house church members. Look at the first century Church. They met in houses and in the temple. They were looked at as a cult by the people of that time, and look where their "cult" stands today. If anyone is teaching something that is unbiblical and not considered a "debatable subject", I would suggest to high tail out of there, regardless if it is in someones home, or a mega-church.

As for leaders in the church, there are elders that are in the church. As was stated before, there is no one set "pastor", but there are leaders of the church, headed by the Lord. It kind of reminds me of [u][b]Acts 21:17-21 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

"17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord."

The elders of the church meet weekly and sometimes daily. The house church leaders come together (elders and those that "lead" the house church) everyother week to discuss the direction. House church "member" (I do not like using that term, but it is the easiest way to explain those who are not elders or leaders of a house church) talk and meet on a multitude of levels. So, it is just like anyother traditional church less the human traditions.

Hopefully I've helped gain a little insight for those who are unaware or hesitant about house church. By all means, this is not how every house church is, as I would hope it is not. All house churchs work differently then the others, all headed by the Lord. The body needs ALL the parts to work properly, as does the Church.

There is something to be said about breaking bread with other believers. The Lord says to do this often. Who better to share a meal with then fellow believers.

Love ya

Miccah

Yeah, to me I don't care one way or the other if folks meet in homes or in a more traditional sanctuary. Frankly, it seems the New Testament church met wherever they could find a place to meet. Most often they met in homes, but they also met in public places, schools, etc.

They did all of this all the while dodging being persecuted and killed.

I do not want to get to far off topic and do not want to go down the theology road, but I will leave this in a broad statement as to "include" everyone, so bare with me :-)

Regardless on your stance on the pre, mid or post rapture theories in the end of days (Revelation), at some point in these days, believers will be on the earth, reagardless if it is before, during or after the tribulation/great tribulation.

Once the persecution starts and the mark of the beast is issued, where do you think people will be "holding church" and meeting? I don't think that believers will be meeting in mega-churchs (unless they are worhiping the beast). I have a feeling that it will be behind closed doors and in "believers homes". Sounds kind of like the believers in this time will be holding a "mandated" house church, if they want to meet as believers together.

Just a thought.

In Christ

Miccah

Once the persecution starts and the mark of the beast is issued, where do you think people will be "holding church" and meeting? I don't think that believers will be meeting in mega-churchs (unless they are worhiping the beast). I have a feeling that it will be behind closed doors and in "believers homes". Sounds kind of like the believers in this time will be holding a "mandated" house church, if they want to meet as believers together.

Indeed, this is how it is in China. In China, the house church is really the only way one can "have church."

We home churched for three years. I would do it again in a heart beat. We started with about 6 families but had to all seperate after a year or so because there were alot of irreconcileable differences in belief but it was a perfectly clean and loving church break-up. The only one I've ever seen. Everyone had a stronger love for each other after the seperating than before.

We ended up with just two- sometimes three- families for the next two years. There have been many times in the past seven years since we used to home-church that I longed to have those home-church years back.

And as far as home-schooling.... it's the only way to go! I wouldn't trade my years of home-schooling for the best public or private school. My schooling was cut off very early though because dad lost his job. My younger brother and I had to quit school and help dad work doing whatever odd job he could find. I have have always regretted not being able to finish my education. Anyway, I'm getting off subject again.

jimdied2sin wrote:

Indeed, this is how it is in China. In China, the house church is really the only way one can "have church."

Not true jimmy, you can join the state sponsored "christian church"... which is similar to our mainline evangelical denominations. Food for thought.

In Christ - Jim

With all due respect Jim2, the "state sponsored" church in China doesn't allow for full belief in the bible and practive of its word. Plus, if you don't follow what the state believes, you are not allowed to "hold church". Then to top it off, they also use torture and prison to keep the true Christians in line with governmental though.

I would have to say that the church in China is not even close to the evangelical churches in America, unless the ones in America are torturing people and not preaching the Gospel.

Read the book "The Heavenly Man". May change your perspective a little bit on house churches in China.

Love ya

Miccah

KrispyKrittr wrote:

The concerns about house churches echoe the same concerns people have about homeschooling

I could not agree with you more. It does seem to scare some of the masses when parents and families take the spiritual edecation and school education into their own hands. Who better to teach your child then the person that knows them the best.

[u][b]Deuteronomy 11:18-19 (New King James Version)[/b][/u]
18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 19 You shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up."

Scripture shows us how to set up church government. It isnt a free for all, but it also isnt set up like most traditional churches do it... which is nothing more than a copy of corporate America.

Great point.

In our house churches we have a "board" of elders who over see. No one man decides anything on his own concerning the direction of a house church. No pastor who controls everything.

We have teachers, evangelists, etc etc... and everyone is expected to participate.
As for a statement of faith... we have but one: The Word of God.

Amen brother.

In Christ

Miccah

Rahman wrote:

i often wonder if Osteen will be able to sustain The Compaq Center once the U.S. economy hits crisis, and "the people" whom he said "he depends on" at his opening speech of the place no longer have the capital they once had ... i thought that was a very telling statement when he said that, and shuddered that he didn't say he depended on our Lord for it's sustenance ...

This is why I don't come here much anymore this started out to be a good wholesome informative thread until "someone" had to call out a specific Church. Last time I looked "GOD" was still in control of "everything" and that would include all the Churches.

I will not go on here and get sucked into any movements or jump on any bandwagons but I personally see a lot of souls being saved at "Osteens" place and personally if you have never been there to really see how the Holy Spirit works
in that place through the people "which are the Church" I would not be wondering if Osteen will be able to sustain The Compaq Center once the U.S. economy hits crisis, God is not worried about any crisis at least the one I serve is not.

Just seems like some folks are not satisfied with just good old wholesome informative threads here anymore they much drag in there own drama, wonder what God would think about someone like that, and if they would ever be able to sustain as a Christian. :-(

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Bill... cool your jets, brother. I thought Rahman was making a valid point. The only reason you took offense is because you attend Osteen's church. I dont think Rahman meant to infer anything.

Lets play nice together.

Krispy

Your right maybe I did get the after burners started, but there comes a time I just get tired of hearing it. Why can't we just let alone the comments on folks place of worship, because it really hurts and sometimes like Jesus even we Christians get upset, so yes I guess I started turning over some tables here with that comment.

I just feel if we "all" would look into the mirror a little more each morning we would have less to say negative about others period, if I was out of line I am sorry.
Mr. Bill

Another great thing about house church is this. If there are disagreements, all bring it to the table. All talk, discuss and pray about it. Not everyone agrees with eachother on the "debatable topics", but everyone voices an opinion on them.

The examples of arguements below are great examples of why house church is so vital in my mind. In house church, all these issues can/will come up. As fellow believers, you are then able to talk about them and get a "face to face" with other believers. You can then talk, debate and really get to know each other. Diving in head first to problems and differences we have.

As a body of believers, it is hard to be on an intimate level with other believers on a grand scale. I am not saying that it cannot be done, but it is harder. If we can get together is small groups, it makes it a lot easier to understand where others are coming from.

Miccah

jimdied2sin wrote:
Who have I condemned? False Teachers and their followers?
Blessings to you in Christ - Jim

No comment other than you will reap what you sow, so my advice to you would be, to be real careful what you say about God's house were he may still be molding and his Children.

Man was created to have fellowship with God but, because of his own stubborn self-will, he chose to go his own independent way and fellowship with God was broken. This self-will, characterized by an attitude of active rebellion or passive indifference, is an evidence of what the Bible calls sin.

In house church, everyone is able to teach or be taught. There is none that are "closer to God" then another. We all share equally.

Here is how my house church goes. It is not alsways the same, but this is a great generalization for explanation purposes.

Everyone begins to arrive around 6:00pm All bring a dish to share for dinner, and dinner gets prepared. Everyone is intermingling and talking. Kids are everywhere, inside, outside having fun together.

We pray over dinner, sit down to eat, talk and share.

After dinner, we usually move into one area (the adults) and begin to dive into the Word. We may also meet in smaller one-on-one groups or multiple groups (depending on where the Spirit is leading us) and dive in.

We usually end the night in prayer. Everyone prays, but doesn't have to. We usually lay hands on those that need healing or deliverance of something. We pray. We pray. We pray.

The night ends around 10-11pm Kids are usually getting crabby by this time and need to go to bed. After bed time, my wife and I discuss what was talked about and then pray some more for what ever needs to be prayed about.

We may sometimes have worship (With music) before, during or after. We may pray the entire time, worship, or get into each others lives. The point is, the Spirit leads. Moving together as one body of believers.

In Christ

Miccah

Miccah wrote:
In house church, everyone is able to teach or be taught. There is none that are "closer to God" then another. We all share equally.
In Christ

Miccah

Contrary to popular belief this can still happen at any Church "if" you are led by the Spirit and not led by your Pastor. I go for the fellowship and for a Word now that Word can come through my Pastor or other believers that's up to God and that totally depends on if you have God in a box or not, me personally I don't have God in a box I am led by the "Holy Spirit"

Bro BillPro ...

--- i wasn't attacking bro Osteen or your church :-o ...

i was just wondering what i posted, which in many respects is what i wonder about ALL mega-churches in light of our present economic situation ... It takes a lot of money to run big, huge, and in the case of The Compaq Center "the biggest" Church ... And my comment about who bro Osteen said he relies on to keep it viable i heard with my own ears, and sorry if it tweaks you wrong but it did make me cringe in that we're experiencing the same thing in our little 3,500 seat mini cathedral ... Pastor says he's relying on our Lord for the mortgage, but the $$$ raising gimmicks say otherwise (not saying ya'll have gimmicks ok) ... But we do ---

Bro BillPro you wrote; ...
This is why I don't come here much anymore this started out to be a good wholesome informative thread until "someone" had to call out a specific Church. Last time I looked "GOD" was still in control of "everything" and that would include all the Churches."

--- Amen He's still in control of everything, but last time i looked it seems like many of us (saints and churches) have forgotten that, and it's my "drama" that i believe He's about to remind us all ...

And amen i can understand why you've perhaps abandoned SI Forum somewhat, one definetly has to be a Timex kinda person who "can take a lickin and keep on tickin" ... Lord knows if i didn't have a faith covered in Rhinocerrus hide id'a absconded a long time ago ---

Bro BillPro you wrote; ...
"I will not go on here and get sucked into any movements or jump on any bandwagons but I personally see a lot of souls being saved at "Osteens" place and personally if you have never been there to really see how the Holy Spirit works in that place through the people "which are the Church" I would not be wondering if Osteen will be able to sustain The Compaq Center once the U.S. economy hits crisis" ...

--- Praise God ... i wasn't trying to bait anyone ...

i watch Osteen from time to time, like some of his messages and the diversity of saints in the audience, a real good looking crowd - tho i'm not to much on the opening jokes (i'm legalistic you know), and get pretty turned off with all the "on sale" stuff flashing on screen during the message, but i'm like this on any ministry, not just Joel's ...

Bro i hope this doesn't rub you the wrong way, but i got a cringe again when you said "Osteens place" ... Yeah i admit that perhaps amongst a lotta saints i'm a bit weird about things like this, but i get the same cringe when my pastor call himself "the founder" of our church ... i think ALL glory should go to God, and that we saints should go just as far out of our way to call attention to Him as we do in calling attention to ourselves ... We like "me", "me", "me" - but find it tedious to say "He", "He", "He" ... i'm often taken aback when i point out to saints that we should make it plain God as origin of every good, and perfect thing coming from above, and they pooh pooh it with "Well you know, or they know what i mean" ...

Bro BillPro you wrote; ...
"God is not worried about any crisis at least the one I serve is not."

--- Amen ... but a lot of men sure are, even saved ones, and especially pastors with big churches and fat mortgages ... i'm seeing it on my level, perhaps it hasn't hit Lakewood's level yet, perhaps it never will, at this point only God knows, but it still doesn't stop someone like me from wondering what would the fallout be (or falling away be) if say half the American population suddenly found itself unemployed ---

Bro BillPro you wrote; ...
"Just seems like some folks are not satisfied with just good old wholesome informative threads here anymore they much drag in there own drama, wonder what God would think about someone like that, and if they would ever be able to sustain as a Christian."

--- Bro God knows when it comes to Him and His Church if the things i constantly, and recently increasingly wonder about, pray about, post, and say amongst my fellow saints is "my own personal drama", then i'm in need of serious psychiatric help, and i sure wish He'd freed me of it, some 20 years ago when it all first started ... That would've suited me just fine because i don't like being the object of getting folk bent outta shape, especially felloe saints, and especially pastors ... But He is good in that i also believe that He dropped in my spirit at years beginning (one way or the other - my wording) i'll be freed by 2007's end ... And trust me bro if the past 20+ years of "drama", and you said it right it's been "drama", is proven to be of my "self" and not God's commision of me, i'll be gladly walking away from it with no explanation needed, and you and anybody else who might find my wonderings/postings insufferable will never, ever, have to suffer thru another one :-P ...

i say all this in total Christian love - no animosity whatsoever --- :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

jimdied2sin wrote:
No comment other then what God speaks through Isaiah and Paul... Be real careful what you call "Gods house".
In Christ - Jim

Wow! I am just amazed at the Christian Police these days be careful this be careful that, brother I am still work in progress like "most" of the rest of us here and I will be perfected one day, but some achieve perfection long before others, remember when you were still work in progress? by the way how does perfection feel? :-P

MrBillPro wrote:

Miccah wrote:
In house church, everyone is able to teach or be taught. There is none that are "closer to God" then another. We all share equally.
In Christ

Miccah

Contrary to popular belief this can still happen at any Church "if" you are led by the Spirit and not led by your Pastor.

No disrespect, but did your pastor tell you that?

I go for the fellowship and for a Word now that Word can come through my Pastor or other believers that's up to God and that totally depends on if you have God in a box or not, me personally I don't have God in a box I am led by the "Holy Spirit"

If this works for you and the Lord, praise God.

Most everyone who attends house church is able to teach (mind you I did not say that they are called to b e teachers, but only that they can teach). Also, the "teachers" as you may put it are able to be taught. This does not meant that any false teachings are allowed, for any would be stopped. Everyone has something to share, teach and be taught about.

As for having God in a box... God has us in His "box". We are lead by the Spirit. And He never turns His back on His elect.

[u][b]Matthew 23:9-11 (New King James Version)[/b][/u]
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.

[u][b]1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (New King James Version)[/b][/u]
"12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

I put my faith in The Lord and what He says, over what man says.

This is one of those situations that when someone tells me that I need to "listen to man over God", I move to "end the discussion".

In Christ

Miccah

Hello...

I would urge those interested in the history of the Church to research the beginnings of Church "administration," "cathedrals" and "houses of worship."

The first indication of modern "houses of worship" comes from the infusion of Roman Catholicism into the Roman Empire during the days of Constantine. After Emperor Constantine "converted" to Roman Catholicism, he declared that the entire Roman Empire was now "converted." Instead of building new places for meetings, the already existent Roman temples (mostly used for the worship of Greco-Roman gods) were “converted” into “Christian” places of worship. The priesthood (including many of their practices, creeds and robes) was simply an alteration of the already existent priesthood for pagan gods. The “Roman Holidays” simply were transformed into “Christian holidays” – even keeping the names of some (in the case of Easter). Adoration of multiple Greco-Roman gods simply transformed into the adoration of “saints” by the newly formed Roman Catholic Church. Subsequently, the Protestant Reformation was more “catholic” in its initial appearance and practices. Even most of the Anglican translators of the King James Version embraced many of these “high church” practices.

Where did the early Church meet? Did the “day of Pentecost” happen in the “Upper Room” (like most tend to believe)? The “upper room” was rented by the apostles for the Feast of the Passover. It is unlikely that they remained there until Pentecost. It is also unlikely that the thousands of foreigners could have heard them “speaking in tongues” from the upper room. First of all, there wasn’t a room in Jerusalem that could seat three thousand. Secondly, the Bible makes it clear that the believers used to assemble together at [i]Solomon’s Colonnade[/i] (also called [i]Solomon’s Porch[/i]) – which was also the only place near the Temple where the Gentiles were allowed to gather (Acts 5:12). This was the large, open-air meeting walkway (filled with 38 foot tall pillars) that led to the Temple. Some Bible scholars believe that the “Day of Pentecost” occurred at Solomon’s Colonnade in the early hours of the morning. Regardless, it is clear that the believers did not confine themselves within the walls of a particular building. They met at the Temple and in one another’s home by Acts 2:46, and at Solomon’s Colonnade by Acts 5.

We might do well to remember that the true church has always existed outside of the established or accepted church body. Throughout the duration of the “Holy Roman Empire” and the subsequent Inquisition, believers met in one another’s homes. To this day, believers still meet in a similar manner in the Middle East, India, North Korea, China and Cuba (amongst other places where the Church is still persecuted).

Knowing this, I am all for the “house church” movement. There is a great deal of liberty felt at places that are not bound by Church “constitutions,” lists of required "fundamentals of the faith," or pastors/denominations on “authority trips.” Such house church meetings were common in the United States in the early days of this nation. The distinguishing feature of early Congregationalists was that they met in homes rather than organized “houses” of worship. The true Church transcends both physical and doctrinal (and denominational) walls. It is with open home meetings that believers seem to find the greatest degree of spiritual liberty. Besides, a “revival” isn’t truly a “revival” unless it continues out of the “house of worship” and into the home and true spiritual “temples” of the believer.

:-)

Wow. Much more eloquent than I.

I think that this is a great point...

Besides, a “revival” isn’t truly a “revival” unless it continues out of the “house of worship” and into the home and true spiritual “temples” of the believer.

Revival doesn't just take place a "church", it takes place throughout the Church, where ever that is. No one can "hold revival". You can pray for it and ask The Lord for it to happen, but who brings revival...The Lord.

Blessings to all

Miccah

Miccah wrote:
Here is how my house church goes.
In Christ
Miccah

Your house Church? that tells me all I need to know right there. See I attend Gods Church. :-)

Miccah wrote:

Contrary to popular belief this can still happen at any Church "if" you are led by the Spirit and not led by your Pastor.

No disrespect, but did your pastor tell you that?
In Christ

Miccah

Nope, don't need anyone to tell me that we the people "are the church" my fellow Christians at Church remind me of that all the time..

not to get too far off track, but does anyone know of a home church in the upper indiana (suburb of chicago) area. i've tried searches and different listings and i don't know of one..

just asking. i've been curious and the Lord has opened my eyes to some things about the home church that i would've never seen a couple of years ago, but i have absolutely no idea where one is by where i live. just even to see something like it..

Your house Church? that tells me all I need to know right there. See I attend Gods Church.

phil

Miccah wrote:
As for having God in a box... God has us in His "box". We are lead by the Spirit. And He never turns His back on His elect.
In Christ

Miccah

Help me out here please and maybe it's just your terminology but who is God's elect? I thought we were all equal in his eyes, but I am all ears please elaborate.

Would his elect be the person that attends Church every Sunday mingles around in the crowd before Church as to say look at me and sits in the pew with their pen and pad jotting down notes and trying to be soo spiritual so they might float up out of the pew a little so everyone will notice them? or could God's elect be the drunk under the bridge that Loves the Lord in his or her heart but is struggling to turn his life around, who is God's elect?

Hello...

Here are a few things that helped me understand the nature and calling of the local Church and ministers:

-\tYou do not go to "church."

-\tYou do not go to "have church."

-\tYou, by yourself, are not the "church."

-\tThe "church" is not confined to a building, nor is it excluded from meeting in one.

-\tThe "church" is much larger than a person, a singular group, a building, or a mere assembly.

-\tWe do not meet with other believers to worship. We should be worshipping even when we are alone.

-\tWe do not meet with other believers to get "fed the Word of God." We should be "feeding" upon the Word of God even when we are alone.

-\tWe do not meet with other believers to "submit to local authority." The pastor is not "king of the doctrinal hill." Christ is the ultimate authority, and the truth of His doctrine is found the Word.

-\tA "pastor" is not just a man called by God to rule over a particular building or assembly. He is not the ultimate authoritarian of doctrine for local believers. He merely "shepherds" a flock to green pastures and still waters. He does not hand pick the "good" grass from the other.

-\t"Teachers" help believers learn how to distinguish between the "good" grass and "bad." They do not force the diet upon all believers. They simply make them aware of how to distinguish such things for themselves.

-\tThe traditional idea of a "church" is largely derived from the infusion of Greco-Roman pagan worship with the ideas of Roman Catholicism.

I truly believe that the Church needs to learn about all of the accepted traditions (and misinterpretations) that have gone unquestioned throughout our history. If we were fully aware of such things, perhaps the modern Church would move from being a largely "dead" bureaucratic organization to one that realizes the responsibilities God has provided us. Then, perhaps, God would be free to move in our midst. From my recollection, all of the great moves of God took place when believers were willing to throw out the incorrect traditions that are extra-Biblical, while fully understanding the traditions that are handed down from the Word of God.

:-)

MrBillPro wrote:

Miccah wrote:
As for having God in a box... God has us in His "box". We are lead by the Spirit. And He never turns His back on His elect.
In Christ

Miccah

Help me out here please and maybe it's just your terminology but who is God's elect? I thought we were all equal in his eyes, but I am all ears please elaborate.

Would his elect be the person that attends Church every Sunday mingles around in the crowd before Church as to say look at me and sits in the pew with their pen and pad jotting down notes and trying to be soo spiritual so they might float up out of the pew a little so everyone will notice them? or could God's elect be the drunk under the bridge that Loves the Lord in his or her heart but is struggling to turn his life around, who is God's elect?

[u][b]Colossians 3:11-13 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Character of the New Man[/b]

"12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do."

[u][b]Luke 18:7 (NKJV) [/b][/u]
"And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?"

[u][b]Matthew 24:22 (NKJV)[/b][/u]
"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

[u][b]2 Timothy 2:10 (NKJV)[/b][/u]
"Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

With love

Miccah