Is speaking in tongues...

Hi Search_Me,

If you go to the page where the forums are laid out in block fashion, the advanced search facility is in the lower right corner. Try putting 'tongues' in the box and choosing the Scripture and Doctrine forum. At least five threads have 'tongues' in their title.

You could also search for that word in the body of posts, and by the name of a poster you respect who may have written something on it.

Here is one: Tongues as Evidence?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16151&forum=36]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16151&forum=36[/url]

Search_Me wrote:
Is speaking in tongues the first initial sign of the Filling of the Holy Spirit?

I believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit but am not sure if speaking in Tongues is the first sign of being Filled with the Holy Spirit or not.

I have been told it is and have been told it isn't always this way.

What does the Bible say because I really am not sure.

On one occasion (acts 4 I think, no time to look it up now but will later if you like) it says that the disciples spoke with boldness as a result of being filled with the Spirit (or re-filled on that occasion). No-where does it say that any of these manifestations is a fixed rule or "initial evidence", only that these things, [u]on those occasions[/u] accompanied being filled with the Spirit.

Making the sovereign operation of God into a rule that He must always follow is dictating to Him.

As mentioned before on other threads, I know one otherwise "sound and sensible" group that believes (due to a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on the subject) that tongues are always in the form of prayer, never prophecy. If anyone in their meetings gives an interpretation in the form of a "message" the leader will stop them and insist on the "correct" interpretation. Although they do accept prophecy as well, as long as its in a known language!

But the Bible doesn't [i]say[/i] that tongues is always prayer.

We all tend to assume certain things, and not read properly what the Word is really saying.

For example the common idea that there were three wise men who visited the infant Jesus, merely because there were three kinds of gifts. Or that Israel marched around Jericho seven times.

Speaking of gifts, (more to the present topic) there is also the assumption that there are only nine spiritual gifts because one of the lists of gifts happens to consist of nine. But again Scripture doesn't say so.

Blessings

Jeannette

There are so many people that want to disprove this aspect of the infilling the holy Spirit. I sometimes wonder if they are afraid of it, or afraid that they would look foolish if they spoke something they don't understand, or they are trying to reason away anything that looks spiritual.

I have explained all the instances that are found in the book of Acts and each time I get the same reply, "I don't see that as being the initial evidence", so they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears saying, "Explain away the infilling the holy Ghost so we don't have to embrace it. Paul we know, Jesus we know, but this holy Ghost we don't want to know."

Your going to get all kinds of different opinions on this forum. Some wise, some bad.

My word for you is, dump the opinions and go with what you read in the book of Acts. You can't go wrong if you seek the LORD to be filled with the holy Ghost. But if you go with opinions you'll find yourself denying the experience that the folks in the book of Acts have readily received.

Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Those itching ear teachers have conjured up a doctrine that you just accept the LORD in your heart, and you automatically have the holy Spirit. If you read the book of Acts, it shows you that it's not done that way. BUT, the itching ear people don't want to believe the book of Acts.

There are so many people that want to disprove this aspect of the infilling the holy Spirit. I sometimes wonder if they are afraid of it, or afraid that they would look foolish if they spoke something they don't understand, or they are trying to reason away anything that looks spiritual.

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with [b][color=FF0000]other [/color][/b] tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of [b][color=FF0000]other [/color][/b] tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:22
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

One of the most dangerous and damaging teachings in the Church Today as well as when Paul wrote Corinthians 14, is that you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved or have received the Holy Spirit. This is a lie.

This is why Paul wrote this chapter in the first place, because of the confusion in the Church.

Remember when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, it was to Carnal, baby Christians. It's interesting, you never hear of this subject again in 2nd Corinthians to those same Christians who Paul is now pleased have grown up.

You never see the word TONGUES mentioned again with Paul, and never with Peter, James, or John.

This prophecy Paul states in 1st Corinthians 14:21 was prophesied in the OT. They were hearing the Gospel in their own language.

The confusion about tongues is, there are two kind of tongues, one Paul refers to as his prayer language, and the other, a sign to unbelievers.

He also states it is the LEAST of all the gifts, and that we should seek rather to prophesy.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Search_Me wrote:
Is speaking in tongues the first initial sign of the Filling of the Holy Spirit?

What does the Bible say because I really am not sure.

Your with In Christ Ministries and you don't know what the Bible says? :-D

Here's my $2.00 worth... the Bible doesn't say.

I say that because it's different for each and every person seeking. A lot of people think because it's the last mentioned of the gifts that it's the least of them all (so therefore not important at all) and/or since it's the last mentioned that it's the easiest to receive. Only God knows. I believe it's been planned that way! There is no formula because God knows how anal human beings can be and if "YOU" or "I" don't follow the formula exactly to a tee, we won't possibly be saved!! We've made a mess as it is... I couldn't image if He had stated!!

I liked what everyone wrote but I wanted to quote Compliments:

Your going to get all kinds of different opinions on this forum. Some wise, some bad.

My word for you is, dump the opinions and go with what you read in the book of Acts. You can't go wrong if you seek the LORD to be filled with the holy Ghost. But if you go with opinions you'll find yourself denying the experience that the folks in the book of Acts have readily received.

And he is correct. Listen to some of Jackie Pullinger's [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?op=&cid=117]sermons[/url]. She tells people when she prays for them the FIRST TIME, you're going to receive the gift of tongues just go with the flow. (She said more than that but due to space limits...) But most importantly, she didn't tell them it was a difficult thing to receive and that they'd have to tarry (seek) it for months or even years!! Do you know what? They received the gift of tongues the first time.

Let me tell ya, I've prayed about that and told the Lord that I wanted to try that and I told my friend Cora a few weeks ahead of time (on the phone) that when we got together, we were going to prayer time and when she felt something bubbling up to not stop it. Guess what? The next time we prayed, she spoke in tongues!! But listen to Jackie's testimonies. They're awesome not because of "her" but because of the Lord that she submitted to. The lord has done great things in her and it's for anyone else who will obey the Spirit.

Ryan, I know this was long but remember that God doesn't have a formula written down in the Bible, it's according to our faith. We prophesy according to the propotion of our faith (Romans 12.6). It's by each person's faith and expectations. To me, this is why He said, We must come as little children.

God bless you in your walk with Him!!

.
I'm sorry!@!!! I'm kind of paranoid because some people like to set up questions only to lambast us with their real agenda!! Forgive me my friend.

Search_Me wrote:
...dan already told me what he believes and he prays in tongues but no longer dogmatically says that it's the initial sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit because he doesn't want to be wrong on the issue. a calvinist pastor who believes in the gifts says the same thing basically that God is able to give whatever gift He Wills at the time fo someone being Filled.

i think your response is pretty much what I am thinking too but i will need to pray about it more to be sure that i am not limiting God or wrong :-)

They are all correct!! And you are correct to always pray about it first!

God is such a huge, big, omnipotent God!! He is to all what we have need of! Let me end with this.. my friend YEARS AGO had a dream, it doesn't have anything to do with tongues but it's good!!

She was at a party and everyone was so excited because Jesus was soon to arrive. And someone finally said, "Look! There's Jesus." And she said "Where?" They said, "Over there talking to Anna." My friend was so downtroddened because the Jesus she saw was punnie (sp?) and small and short. She began to be sad and walk around with her head hung. Then Jesus came up to her and said, "Hello, Sandy." He was the size of a linebacker!! She asked Him why the difference and in her dream, He said, "I am whatsoever you have need of. Anna didn't have need of a big football player, you do."

It was her dream almost 30 years ago but I've never forgotten it!

God bless you!!!

'm sorry!@!!! I'm kind of paranoid because some people like to set up questions only to lambast us with their real agenda!! Forgive me my friend.

Talking about me again! :-x Guess the apology was meaningless? :-o

My advice is to search the scriptures first, don't read any books about this matter, unless it is over 100yrs old. Y

You will get many beliefs and interpretations on SI. It shouldn't even matter if you receive the gift of tongues or not. I would be concerned about growing in my relationship with the Lord and to serve Him. Not to say you are not, but that should be are first concern for all of us who believe, and if the Lord so chooses to do something else, he will. If our motives are only to have this gift or any gift because it seems really cool or others make you feel inferior if you don't have this "prayer language", then you or anyone else will not receive it.

.
Windex works... the Lord can use WHATEVER he wants to use!! I think that is awesome, that sounds like something I would grab!

just smiles and says 'can we pray?' and says not to worry about the big issues but just to trust Jesus and let Him speak to me and then i don't feel so small! lol i just don't have a good memory and can't memorize Bible verses as good as some people but i know Jesus loves me and only wants my heart to follow hard after Him.

You're blessed already! Dan sounds like a great friend of God to have!!

One day you may be defending the gospel only to realize suddenly that you've memorized the Word and that you have a good memory... all because you trusted Him!! If we are faithful in the little things, he will make us rulers over the big things!! hang in there with Jesus, I know you will!

Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
Psalms 37.4

God bless you Ryan!!

One of the most dangerous and damaging teachings in the Church Today as well as when Paul wrote Corinthians 14, is that you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved or have received the Holy Spirit. This is a lie.

It is a hard question to ask, the stupid thing is that I do speak in tongues (not much or barely at all) but there were many great people through history who didn't.

And it's good that you don't preach tongues, we preach Christ and Him crucified. And afterwards believers should receive the holy Spirit and yes when they receive it, they should expect a manifestation of the speaking in tongues or prophesying.

There are so many weird and crazy things happening amongst Pentecostal/ Charismatic churches today that makes people leery of the true experience of Pentecost, even I am ashamed and embarrassed of it all. If we can just wade thru this mess, were sure to find the real McCoy.

Katy said:

One of the most dangerous and damaging teachings in the Church Today as well as when Paul wrote Corinthians 14, is that you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved or have received the Holy Spirit. This is a lie.

Compliments said:

The only lie in your statement Katy is "That you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved", you are right, that is a lie. In saying that, the proof that one has received the holy Spirit AT THE TIME YOU RECEIVE IT, is the speaking in tongues. But I do agree with PART of your statement that there are people that say that if you don't speak in tongues your not saved, that is a lie.

Compliments, I thoroughly confused by your comment.

NOT everyone is given the Gift of Tongues. Tongues is a GIFT, one of the Spiritual Gifts.

My brother in law( a once devout Catholic) many years ago got saved. He found himself hooked up with those who were of the Tongues belief that you MUST be able to speak in Tongues if you are truly saved. Well, after 5 years in a Church with this constant teaching, and not able to speak in tongues, he departed from not only that church but the Christian faith all together.

This is what I am saying is soooooo dangerous in many who are extreme on the subject. And yes, today, there are still some extreme teachings on the GIFT of Tongues.

Speaking in Tongues doesn't save you, Jesus Christ at Calvary did.

AND all the Gifts can be counterfeited as well. So, in Truth, one must KNOW the LORD and HIS WORD to be able to distinguish between what is of GOD and what is of(SAtan who can transform himself into an angel of light that can turn himself into a preacher of righteousness).

We know anti-christ is coming with ***great signs and wonders****, and many will be deceived, thinking these are truly Spiritual Gifts, when all along it will be Satan. How can one KNOW?

John 17, that they may **KNOW** me, the ONLY TRUE GOD.

To KNOW here means the same as when Adam KNEW Eve. It's the most intimate of union between two.

And with many of these extreme teachings comes the unbiblical teaching of being slain in the Spirit. People who have *lost that loving feeling*, or are looking for love in all the wrong places find themselves standing in line for this whatever, for what? To FEEL closer to God? We live by faith, not feelings....

We must be careful that we don't seek out any Gift for it's feeling...that is fleshly and carnal. Many who want to speak in tongues want the *feeling* manifestation. Bad reason! Jesus didn't die on a Cross, and shed His blood so we can speak in tongues.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

I don't get it, why are tongues something people desire to have? You never hear anyone say, "Man, I wish I could get the gift to prophesy the truth!" or "Boy, I wish I could have the gift of love?"

Personally, for most, not all, who desire this gift of tongues is for the flesh, for self edification. The bible clearly says that we should not think of ourselves highly over others. I am not debating those who say they have this gift, but it grieves me when others desire it so much! When people see other speaking in tongues, people get jealous. It was a sign for unbelievers and not a secret prayer language, if it is spoken in a congregation it is to be interpretated.

My desire is to pursue Him, to know His Righteous and Holiness. To have a deeper revelation of the Savior. To hate my sin, and to love Him. That is the gift I desire and I am sure it is for many on SI too!

blessings

My desire is to pursue Him, to know His Righteous and Holiness. To have a deeper revelation of the Savior. To hate my sin, and to love Him. That is the gift I desire and I am sure it is for many on SI too!

Reformer, I couldn't agree with you more.

Here are some scriptures for those still

who desire this gift of tongues is for the flesh,

2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, ****whose deadly wound was healed.****

Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (Why, because of the counterfeit gift of Healing?)

Revelation 13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those MIRACLES which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

What will become of those who live after the FLESH? Moved by the FLESH? ***Romans 8

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

.
*****Search_Me asked an honest question, please don't hijack his thread to make this a "should we speak in tongues or not" debate.[edit: he already stated he believed in it.] (Resurrect one of the many threads already started for this or start a new one!). Thanks! ******

Ryan, I listened and watched a video of Zac Poonen this morning preaching on "The Spirit and the Cross" and it was very good. It's not about tongues but it is on knowing the Holy Spirit and it's very good. It reminded me of you when you said that you didn't have good memorization. You'll be blessed by it!! Listen when you have a chance but here is what caught my ears.....

God bless....

Zac Poonen Video

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=105&date=07_09&title=The+Spirit+And+The+Cross]The Spirit and the Cross[/url]
[11.00 minutes into it approx and pardon any typing mistakes!] All the great Christians you read about in the Bible, never had a Bible themselves. Abraham didn't have a Bible, Job didn't have a Bible. Enoch who walked with God 300 years didn't have Bible. Even the New Testament Christians, most of them were running around from cave to cave, they didn't have a Bible. The first printed Bibles came around 1500 AD, just about 500 years ago. So how did people lives so many years ago without Bibles? How did God expect Christians to live for 1,500 years without the Bible? They couldn't have a quiet time with the Bible every morning; do you know what was most important for those Christians? The Holy Spirit. The way of the Cross. That's what makes a person spiritual. The reason I say that is because we live in a day when knowledge and information has been given great importance and I found in our churches also there's so much of Bible knowledge and information, understanding of doctrine and truth and all that but not a sufficient dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit and not a sufficient understanding on the way of the Cross. And that's the reason why we don't have more spiritual people in our midst. [13.25]

[47.10] Luke's gospel chapter 9 and verse 23. You've got to read this verse carefully. If anyone wants to come after me in other words if someone wants to be my follower, if someone wants to walk in my footsteps, anybody, anywhere in the world, if you want to walk in my footsteps... there's something you've got to do every single day. It says you must deny yourself, take up your cross everyday if you want to follow me.... You can understand all the doctrines in the world, you can have great understanding in your head, pray and sing like an angel and shout and all that but you will not be able to follow me if you don't take up the cross everyday. Now if you do take up your cross and you can't sing for nuts, that's ok you'll still follow Jesus. Or you don't have much understanding of the Bible, you can still follow Jesus.

You know, being able to quote the Bible and all that, that's not such a great qualification. I love some places in the Old Testament and it says, "yeah, somewhere someone has said..." Think of a verse like this, this is the Holy Spirit inspired apostle right. saying in Hebrews 4 4, For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: : "God rested on the seventh day..." I say, "Hey, you mean you don't even know that that is Genesis chapter 2 verse 1? "Somewhere someone said???"
It's amazing, they didn't give so much importance to knowing the Bible so well as to be able to quote it.

Today we can quote but we don't have that life. It's good to know the Bible, especailly if you're a techer, you need to know where it is but what I'm trying to say is that these people, the man who wrote Scripture couldn't even know where this verse was. He said, "Somewhere, I don't remember exactly which book it is, but it said God rested on the seventh day." Every Christian knows that in Genesis but he is not ashamed to say, "you know I don't know, it's somewhere." But they had the life.

The point is this, they had the Holy Spirit and they took up the Cross and follow Jesus everyday, that's why they had the life. We can major on so many other things like singing, attendig meetings and reading the Bible and miss this way of sacrifice. When I was 24 the Lord showed me the way of the Cross and it changed my life. I understood somethign of the way of the Cross, the way of sacrifice, the way of self-denial is the ONLY WAY to follow Jesus. I'm so glad that I understood that as a young man, I wish you young people would understand it now. It'll change your life, when you come to my age, you'll be able to look back over a life with great joy and no regret by the way you lived if you chose the way of the Cross. When I had to choose a wife, I wanted to know if she understood the way of the Cross, most important, and when I discovered she knew that, I chose her. Cause it's pointless, one person understanding the way of the Cross and the other doesn't. It's a lifelong conflict. If you understand the way of the Cross, choose a partner who understands the way of the Cross. It's the way of life. It's the way of triumph.

And that's how it was when it says in Hebrews 12.2, "Let's run the race looking unto Jesus," it didn't say let's look unto Jesus who raised the dead or who walked on the water, it's says, "let's look unto Jesus who endured the Cross" everyday. The way of the Cross is the way to the Throne of God. [52.29]

Is speaking in tongues the first initial sign of the Filling of the Holy Spirit?

That was the question..Intens4him. believed in the gift of the Holy Spirit. So, logically, if one doesn't believe in tongues then they are not filled with the Holy Spirit? Could that not cause someone to be concerned if they hold that believe?

Plus, if you have something directly to say to me PM me, if you think you are the moderator of all the thread then talk to SI and maybe they will let you be a moderator. You have already hijacked one my threads early attacking me. You some what said I was sorry, but you didn't mean it! You then again mentioned me again on this thread. Quit trying to police SI. This is a public forum and if you don't like what others say, then LEAVE!! Apparently the person appreciated my response. Maybe you should quit trying to worry about what people are saying or think they are saying!!!!!!

And I don't appreciate you yelling at me!!! better watch it please we are to be adults, unless I am talking to someone who is a child.

Next time I will respond to you directly in PM. Since you FIRST stated what you stated your comment, for all to see, I must defend publicaly as well.

NOT everyone is given the Gift of Tongues. Tongues is a GIFT, one of the Spiritual Gifts.

There is not the slightest doubt in my mind Katy that not all have the gift of speaking in tongues, however when you receive the holy Spirit you will speak in tongues or prophesy. As Paul said, "Do all speak with tongues?" Of course not! What I am trying to convey is this that some who have spoken in tongues at the receiving of the holy Spirit may never speak in tongues again after that because they have not the gift. The speaking in tongues for that believer is to let the hearers know that one has received the holy Spirit, and example of this is when Peter was ministering to the gentiles.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

We must be careful that we don't seek out any Gift for it's feeling...that is fleshly and carnal. Many who want to speak in tongues want the *feeling* manifestation. Bad reason! Jesus didn't die on a Cross, and shed His blood so we can speak in tongues.

I don't get it, why are tongues something people desire to have? You never hear anyone say, "Man, I wish I could get the gift to prophesy the truth!" or "Boy, I wish I could have the gift of love?"

P.S. Of course NOT all UPC are like this, I know many who long for more than just what they have to offer, I am talking about the organization at large.

This teaching that one must speak in tongues or he does not have the Holy Spirit was not taught by the early church, it is not mentioned anywhere in the NT, or implicitly taught by Paul or Peter. Church history bears this to be true.

Absolutely correct PaulWest, Thank you.

But I believe this was a SIGN Gift, at the beginning of Pentecost, as spoken of in Hebrews.

Remember Hebrews was first written to Believing Jews who knew of the Prophesy concerning OTHER Tongues.

At Pentecost, it was JEWS who were saved, Jews who living in different parts of the world who had come together. The Day of Pentecost, which occurs 50 days after Passover is a major Jewish feast day. Shavuot (Ashkenazi pronunciation: Shavuos, Hebrew: שבועות; literally, "Feast of Weeks") is a Jewish holiday that occurs on the sixth day of the Hebrew month of Sivan (late May or early June). It marks the conclusion of the Counting of the Omer and the day the Torah was given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai. It is one of the shalosh regalim, the three Biblical pilgrimage festivals mandated by the Torah.
The celebration of Shavuot is directly linked to the date of Passover. The Torah mandates the seven-week Counting of the Omer, beginning on the second day of Passover and culminating after seven weeks, the next day being Shavuot. This counting of days and weeks expresses anticipation and desire for the Giving of the Torah. At Passover, the Jewish people were freed from being slaves to Pharaoh; at Shavuot they accepted the Torah and became a nation committed to serving God.
Shavuot has many aspects and as a consequence is called by several names. In the Torah it is called Feast of Weeks

(Hebrew: חג השבועות, Hag ha-Shavuot, Exodus 34:22, Deuteronomy 16:10); Festival of Reaping (Hebrew: חג הקציר, Hag ha-Katsir, Ex. 23:16), and Day of the First Fruits (Hebrew יום הבכורים, Yom ha-Bikkurim, Numbers 28:26). The Mishnah and Talmud refer to Shavuot as Atzeret (Hebrew: עצרת, a solemn assembly), as it provides closure for the festival activities during and following the holiday of Passover. Since Shavuot occurs 50 days after Passover, Christians gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκόστη, "fiftieth day"). However, the actual Christian commemoration of Pentecost occurs on the seventh Sunday after Easter.

Remember Cornelius was the FIRST Gentile saved….and that didn’t happen on the day of Pentecost. It was as *SIGN to PETER and Company* that Yes Indeed, Gentiles were also heirs with Christ. Just read about the dream etc that Peter had to go through showing him what God has cleansed don’t call unclean.

Peter in Galatia was still narrow minded about Gentiles when Paul had to call him down for his hypocrisy.

Hebrews 2
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Compliments, what I find very interesting is other parts of scripture Paul talks of the Gifts, all including the gift of Prophesy, Tongues is not mentioned again after 1st Corinthians 14.

Ephesians 4:

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Romans 12:

6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
9Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

You are ASSUMING all who receive the Holy Spirit speak in tongues at least once.

There is NO scripture to back up what you are saying. If this were a fact, it would have very clear teaching without any shadow of a doubt that tongues is evidence of salvation.

The EVIDENCE of your salvation is that you are a NEW Creation in Christ Jesus, Who through the Promise of the “New Covenant” will receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit….” ( NOT THE GIFT OF TONGUES) I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

If the New Covenant Promise of the Holy Spirit insists one must have evidence of Tongues , it would read,

"I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to speak in Tongues". Don't put words in God's mouth that are not there.

One really MUST read the WHOLE council of God, and not base those prejudiced ideas on only one or two scriptures, using your own imaginary mind to fill in the blanks where none need to be filled in at all. That's EXACTLY how the Virgin Mary has become more than scripture teaches.

Read Galatians where Paul said the Promise of the Spirit will come to the Gentiles, and find ONE verse referring to TONGUES as the evidence. You Won’t.

Let’s not cause division by forcing a doctrine that simply is not in scripture.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

[b][color=FF0000]PS: The Gift of the Spirit is the Gift of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that set us free from the Law of sin and death. ****Romans6-8 never once mention TONGUES [/color][/b]

Compliments wrote:
There are so many people that want to disprove this aspect of the infilling the holy Spirit. I sometimes wonder if they are afraid of it, or afraid that they would look foolish if they spoke something they don't understand, or they are trying to reason away anything that looks spiritual.

I have explained all the instances that are found in the book of Acts and each time I get the same reply, "I don't see that as being the initial evidence", so they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears saying, "Explain away the infilling the holy Ghost so we don't have to embrace it. Paul we know, Jesus we know, but this holy Ghost we don't want to know."

Is this comment anything to do with my first post in this thread (on page 1)?

If you do a search you will find that I do believe that tongues are for today, and have (after indeed being initially scared of it!) been moving in this gift for many years (since around 1975).

I just don't believe that Acts supports this gift as [i]necessarily[/i] being the initial evidence of being filled with the Spirit!

This point may have already been answered (I'm still reading the posts on page 1), but just wanted to make my position clear on this subject, in case you want to lump me with those "having itching ears" etc. :-P

Blessings

Jeannette

By attempting to validate a spiritual experience of inward consequence by the sounding of an outward bell, we are not wise in our dealings, and furthermore, we relegate God's sovereignty to the predictable formulaic persuasions of man.

The Earth was held captive to a works based gospel. Then the doctrine of baptism by immersion was re-instituted. Then the laying on of hands. Then in 1906 the other baptism was re-instituted to the Church, the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Then the gifts of the Spirit became operational once again. And yes with that type of activity going on your going to have Satan's workers out there too trying to copy it and causing confusion.

When you said, "to say that the reformers did not have the Spirit is preposterous". Would it be upsetting if they did not? Would you think any less of them, I know I don't.
---------------------------------------------

Hi Jeanette, I read your post on page one of this thread, but I didn't comment on it. Nice reading though.
;-)

Compliments wrote:
There are so many people that want to disprove this aspect of the infilling the holy Spirit. I sometimes wonder if they are afraid of it, or afraid that they would look foolish if they spoke something they don't understand, or they are trying to reason away anything that looks spiritual.

Compliments, If we are to walk in the Spirit as is instructed by Paul in Romans 8, are you saying there is *another* Holy Spirit.

The Gift of the Holy Spirit or as John the Baptist said referring to Jesus, He will baptize you with fire. So really it is Jesus who baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, Baptized into his death and raised up an New Creation.

We are Baptized into the Body of Christ by that SAME SELF SPIRIT the moment we are Born Again.

The Holy Spirit is our Comfortor
Our Teacher...the one who leads us into all truth, and illuminates the Word of God.

When I walk in the Spirit, live in the Spirit IN CHRIST a New Creation....I am not speaking in tongues....I'm living by the faith of Christ in me.

When Stephen was stoned to death, I'm sure he had a special filling of the Holy Spirit, but spoke in plain Hebrew I'm sure for all to hear...."I see Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father".

The Holy Spirit in us is the Power of God working through us, conforming us to His image, from Glory to Glory, even by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3. This Chapter is referring to the New Covenant promise that the Law is written in our Hearts...our New Heart with the firey finger of God, and not on stone tablets.

To put all the emphasis on tongues and not the real MEAT of scripture concerning the Ministry of the Holy Spirit is like worshiping the wrapping paper around the Gift. Jesus Christ IS the Gift.

We are saved by GRACE through Faith, it is a GIFT of God, not of works lest any man should boast,

I wonder if people confuse The GIFT of salvation with the GIFT*S* of the Spirit, calling THAT the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Receiving a Spiritual Gifts IS NOT the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or what some call the second blessing. There is only ONE Baptism as stated by Paul in Ephesians 4.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

I really don't like coming head to head with you Paul because I deeply respect you.

I base all my findings on the word of God. What other primer shall we use? Experiences? God forbid!

I want to ask you a question. Do you subscribe to the idea that when you accept the LORD Jesus Christ into your heart and that you have totally are sorry for your sins in deep contrition, do you believe that one has received the holy Spirit without the evidence of the speaking in tongues and/or prophesying?

Before you answer that question, I want you to fully understand that I think that your presence here on this forum is absolutely great, you have a lot to share and I have enjoyed reading what you have to say. And I will continue to respect that about you regardless of how you'll answer my question, in other words, your my brother regardless. I wanted to make that perfectly clear.

When I walk in the Spirit, live in the Spirit IN CHRIST a New Creation....I am not speaking in tongues....I'm living by the faith of Christ in me.

(sorry for the caps)

The only lie in your statement Katy is "That you must speak in tongues to prove you are saved", you are right, that is a lie. In saying that, the proof that one has received the holy Spirit AT THE TIME YOU RECEIVE IT, is the speaking in tongues. But I do agree with PART of your statement that there are people that say that if you don't speak in tongues your not saved, that is a lie.

Added/Edited:
Compliments, when I was Born Again, I definitely received the Holy Spirit, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and my Spiritual Gift or Gifts at that same time....but never spoke in tongues.

Because I had been Born of the Spirit, Born Again, and did testify to this, also being in a very conservative church who was totally afraid to even bring up the words Holy Spirit for fear they would be labeled Charismatic, I went through great persecution. I had fingers pointed in my face and told, "The only time the Holy Spirit comes on you is when you witness".

Their confusion was, they didn't understand living in the Spirit or being Born Again. They completely denied the scriptures of Romans 6-8.

Also when doing a Chapter by Chapter study in Romans, the pastor jumped from Chapter 5 and the following week we were in Chapter 9. This happened more than once in other Churches (same demomination), until I put it all together....Legalists hate those chapters.

It was Romans 6-8, the missing part of the Gospel that I actually came into a full understanding of Salvation, and that I had to do something....obey from the Heart...I am Crucified with Christ. When I totally surrendered my life, THEN came the power of the Holy Spirit. OH, He may have been there all along, I really don't know, But then is when I believe I was Born Again.

Compliments, I do agree that when one is saved they will Prophesy about Jesus Christ being in their life. (That's what I was doing and that's what caused persecution. Galatians says, teh children of the flesh HATE the children of the Spirit, even today)

A verse in Revelation says the "Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy".

Anyone who receives Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will definitely attest to it.

If I'm not mistaken, I do believe this is what you are referring to.?????

Jesus said if we are ashamed to confess Him before men.......well, it's not a good reply back!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS: Added

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

PS Again:
It can't be stressed enough that one MUST be Born Again FIRST before any Gifts can operate. I have seen also too many Charismatics who have no understanding of Romans 6-8, yet their whole life is operating in these gifts. Just because you may see the operation of the supernatural, if you don't first see Chirst In You, it's counterfeit to the core. These are the same people who get charged up by getting slain in the spirit to FEEL closer to God, rather then applying Romans 12:1&2 for the renewing of their minds.

Or Philippians 3...that I may KNOW Him, and the ****POWER of His Resurrection****, and the fellowship of His suffering, being made conformable unto His death that I may attain to
the resurrection...not that I have already attained...but I press on.

This is how one gets CLOSER to the Lord. We must FIRST be raised up together with Him. He doesn't empower our old flesh, He cricifies it, and it's our NEW MAN In Christ that is empowered.

God does not put New Wine in Old Wineskins, He puts New wine in New Wineskins.

So, the only message whether in other tongues or in you native language should be, Ye must be Born Again, Christ in You the Hope of Glory.

Anything else would just be babel. And you do know, even in paganism, they also spoke in jibber jabber.

Only the Word of God can discern the difference, For the Word of God is sharper than a two edge sword, piercing between soul and spirit, bone and marrow.

These are the same people who get charged up by getting slain in the spirit to FEEL closer to God,

I know what your saying though. Your saying, don't seek after the feelings, or the emotions of the gifts of the Spirit or any other aspects of the holy Ghost. If that is what your saying than I whole heartily agree.

Now, regarding the "slaying out". I grew up in the Pentecostal realm and I was not aware of this until I moved from the country to the city. There might have been people being slain in my home church in the country but I never saw any. When I saw it being done in the city I was totally hardened against it, why? I was scared to fall backward without any support, if a mattress was there maybe. I went to a miracle service which gave me goosebumps I never saw a miracle before at that time. Anyway, I went up to the alter and the minister just touched my hand I felt limp all over, my knees gave out from under me and I went down (someone caught me). I was very conscience of everything, I stayed down for just a few minutes and I was right back up again.

I won't make a doctrine out my experience, it's not worth the trouble, but somethings do happen in the Spirit and for whatever reason I was so called "Slain out", only God knows. Now, I have been to other services where the minister was trying to push me down, but I hung unto him. I thought if I go your coming with me. So he swayed back his way to keep from falling down. Do I look to be slain out? Absolutely not! I have been slain out the one time I haven't been since. Do I approve of it? Yes and no, some are genuine, others are not.

My parents were both slain for several hours when they received the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues but never spoke in tongues again.

Compliments said

they spoke in tongues but never spoke in tongues again.

As I haven't been following this thread I don't know if this has been discussed already, but I thought it might be helpful to mention it.

Many years ago, a conversation between two very educated and intelligent young men considered the question of why God would give tongues at all.

They concluded that speaking\\praying in tongues rested their minds and enabled them more rapidly to hear God's word to their spirits. I took this into my thinking as a reason for using tongues more often rather than less. I believe it is true that one rests in spirit when speaking in tongues, and [u]this rest[/u] God [i]desires[/i].

Certainly also, I believe there are many different tongues, and yet there is individual stability for the individual believer as to what their spiritual (tongue) usually sounds like. This is true for me and I have witnessed it in others. Also, I have had new languages at times of deep stress or revelation, which I took as affirmation from the Lord's own heart.

katy-did , by what power would you say that smith wigglesworth spake in tongues and did the miracles he did? Would you say that the bretheren on sermon index are mislead or in error or what that speak in tongues?
Thanks , David

Just to give some Historical Spiritual History about the speaking in Tongues from the OT.

Jesus said "not a jot or tittle would be left undone" as we shall see....

The New Testament fulfills the OT and the OT reveals the New Testament.

This is what the BIBLE Teaches, and that is all that I am concerned with. What does *GOD* have to say on the matter....

I posted earlier the day of Pentacost was also a Jewish Holy Day of Shavuot. Dispersed Jews from probably 15 different countries were gathered.

Hear the words spoken to the JEWS that day:

Acts 2:
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy foot stool

[b][color=CC0000]36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[/color][/b]stool.

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Isaiah says that if anyone speaks not according to the law and to the testimony (of the prophets), there is no light in him (Is. 8:20; see also Lk. 24:44-48). Paul, by quoting Isaiah 28:11-12 in 1 Corinthians 14:20-22, rebukes the Corinthians for not understanding the Old Testament Scriptures in their use of "the gift of tongues." Charismatic "Christians" today should tremble in fear of the Lord as they read the passage Paul used to instruct the first generation of Christians.

Isaiah 28 takes place in the latter years of Hezekiah, King of Judah, 705-701 BC. Before his rule (722 BC), Assyria invaded Palestine and the Northern Kingdom. Ephraim was destroyed. Now, many years later, Isaiah warns the people of the Southern Kingdom, Judah, that the same thing will happen to them (cf. Jer. 3:7-10). But instead of trusting in the Lord for their deliverance from Assyria, Judah makes a deal with Egypt. Their unity with pagan Egypt brings an influx of heathen practices into the congregation of the Lord, and their hearts turn from Him.

In vv. 7-8, God's prophet points to the leaders of Judah, and tells the world that they are involved in wicked, evil practices -- a drunken party. The leaders mock Isaiah and his warning concerning their spiritual condition. Not liking to be addressed as irresponsible children, even though they are childish, they call his teaching childishly simple. As far as they are concerned, Isaiah, a legalist preacher, speaks down to them as one would to a minor, and, considering themselves "free adults," they resent Isaiah, and sneer at his warning.

The prophet, in vv. 11-13, deals with them in the very point of their sarcasm (he continues to speak to them as children, using their scorn for God's Word against them) as he makes his prophetic announcement of coming judgment, vv. 14ff. Since the people will not listen to God as He speaks to draw them back to His Word with plain and simple words that they understand and use daily (including the weather, v. 2 & Dt. 28:24), He will speak to them in a language they cannot understand, Assyrian. Now they will need an interpreter to understand the other "tongues," languages (Is. 10:5-6). When they hear the stammering lips and another tongue on the streets of Jerusalem, as well as throughout the land (i.e., the Assyrian language which they understood not), they will know that God's judgment is upon them according to Isaiah's warning. The another tongue was a sure sign pointing them directly back to Isaiah's warning of the coming judgment at which they had mocked and sneered.

After the crucifixion of the Son of God, and before the final destruction of the Jewish nation, the sign of tongues re-appeared. To the Jews who knew the law (Dt. 28) and the prophets (Is. 28), it meant only one thing -- judgment. Other tongues (ethnic languages) were not new to them; it had happened in the past. In the middle of Paul's significant warning concerning the proper use of tongues (1 Cor. 14), we have his reference to Isaiah, 14:21. Paul clearly identifies tongues in the same context as did Isaiah -- a sure sign of judgment for rejecting God's warning. The Roman language that would be spoken on the streets of Jerusalem would not be understood without an interpreter.
Thus, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish came upon the Jews first, in the form of Assyria, Babylon, and Rome for their refusal to glorify God, the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, with their personal, religious, social, and national lives. Paul clearly tells us that God, being no respecter of persons, will also send indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish against the Gentiles for the same offense.

If a tongue is a language, then what language do the followers of the modern tongue movement speak?
They do not speak any language known to man. The speaking which takes place is of some ecstatic gibberish, which cannot be deciphered. Readers of ancient history are aware that this exact thing was very common among many pagan religions.

The pagan's definition of close, spiritual contact with their gods (ecstatic utterances) had crept into the Corinthian church, and the people claimed spirituality and love for God because they could imitate the pagans. Paul points out that what they had was not true spirituality (chapter 13).

Charismatics commonly refer to Romans 8:26 this scripture as support for the praying in tongues. In that they believe that the Holy Spirit will pray through you that which is needful. However, after a careful reading of the verse it is clear what is taking place, the Holy Spirit is said to pray "for" us and not through us. The verse also indicates that the spirit will make intercession for us with "groanings which cannot be uttered." If the groanings cannot be uttered, isn't it a clear indication that it could not be a tongue, since tongues are spoken languages? The scripture is basically telling us that the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.

Conclusion:

There is no evidence of "unknown tongues," either by word or action, in the life and teachings of Jesus. He taught much about the Holy Spirit and gave the promise of His coming at Pentecost. But nowhere does Jesus suggest that speaking in unknown tongues would be associated with any phase of the redemptive work of the Spirit or our growing in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, He deplored the babblings of pagan religions: "And in praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words" (Mt. 6:7

With Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did

Ok, lets get down to the brass tacks. Sister Katy, is the speaking in an unknown tongue and the interpretation of that unknown tongue occur in the Church that you attend? I know you believe in the gift of tongues, but does it happen in your Church?

The Bible Evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit

There is much controversy today as regards the genuineness of this Pentecostal work, but there is nothing so convincing as the fact that over fifteen years ago a revival on Holy Ghost lines began and has never ceased. You will find that in every clime throughout the world God has poured out His Spirit in a remarkable way in a line parallel with the glorious revival that inaugurated the church of the first century. People, who could not understand what God was doing when He kept them concentrated in prayer, wondered as these days were being brought about by the Holy Ghost, and found themselves in exactly the same place and entering into an identical experience as the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.

Our Lord Jesus said to His disciples, "Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). God promised through the prophet Joel, "I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh... Upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My Spirit." As there is a widespread misconception concerning this receiving of the Holy Spirit, I believe the Lord would have us examine the Scriptures on this subject.

You know, beloved, it had to be something on the line of solid facts to move me. I was as certain as possible that I had received the Holy Ghost, and was absolutely rigid in this conviction. When this Pentecostal outpouring began in England I went to Sunderland and met with the people who had assembled for the purpose of receiving the Holy Ghost. I was continually in those meetings causing disturbances until the people wished I had never come. They said that I was disturbing the whole conditions. But I was hungry and thirsty for God, and had gone to Sunderland because I heard that God was pouring out His Spirit in a new way. I heard that God had now visited His people, had manifested His power and that people were speaking in tongues as on the day of Pentecost.

When I got to this place I said, "I cannot understand this meeting. I have left a meeting in Bradford all on fire for God. The fire fell last night and we were all laid out under the power of God. I have come here for tongues, and I don't hear them-I don't hear anything."

"Oh!" they said, "when you get baptized with the Holy Ghost you will speak in tongues." "Oh, is that it?" said I, "when the presence of God came upon me, my tongue was loosened, and really I felt as I went in the open air to preach that I had a new tongue." "Ah no," they said, "that is not it." "What is it, then?" I asked. They said, "When you get baptized in the Holy Ghost-" "I am baptized," I interjected, "and there is no one here who can persuade me that I am not baptized." So I was up against them arid they were up against me.

I remember a man getting up and saying, "You know, brothers and sisters, I was here three weeks and then the Lord baptized me with the Holy Ghost and I began to speak with other tongues." I said, "Let us hear it. That's what I'm here for." But he would not talk in tongues. I was doing what others are doing today, confusing the 12th of I Corinthians with the 2nd of Acts. These two chapters deal with different things, one with the gifts of the Spirit, and the other with the Baptism of the Spirit with the accompanying sign. I did not understand this and so I said to the man, "Let's hear you speak in tongues." But he could not. He had not received the "gift" of tongues, but the Baptism.

As the days passed I became more and more hungry. I had opposed the meetings so much, but the Lord was gracious, and I shall ever remember that last day-the day I was to leave. God was with me so much that last night. They were to have a meeting and I went, but I could not rest. I went to the Vicarage, and there in the library I said to Mrs. Boddy, "I cannot rest any longer, I must have these tongues." She replied, "Brother Wigglesworth, it is not the tongues you need but the Baptism. If you will allow God to baptize you, the other will be all right." "My dear sister, I know I am baptized," I said. "You know that I have to leave here at 4 o'clock. Please lay hands on me that I may receive the tongues."

She rose up and laid her hands on me and the fire fell. I said, "The fire's falling." Then came a persistent knock at the door, and she had to go out. That was the best thing that could have happened, for I was ALONE WITH GOD. Then He gave me a revelation. Oh, it was wonderful! He showed me an empty cross and Jesus glorified. I do thank God that the cross is empty, that Christ is no more on the cross. It was there that He bore the curse, for it is written, "Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree." He became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him, and now, there He is in the glory. Then I saw that God had purified me. It seemed that God gave me a new vision, and I saw a perfect being within me with mouth open, saying, "Clean l Clean! Clean!" When I began to repeat it I found myself speaking in other tongues. The joy was so great that when I came to utter it my tongue failed, and I began to worship God in other tongues as the Spirit gave me utterance.

It was all as beautiful and peaceful as when Jesus said, "Peace, be still!" and the tranquillity of that moment and the joy surpassed anything I had ever known up to that moment. But, Hallelujah l these days have grown with greater, mightier, more wonderful divine manifestations and power. That was but the beginning. There is no end to this kind of beginning. You will never get an end to the Holy Ghost till you are landed in the glory-till you are right in the presence of God forever. And even then w e shall ever be conscious of His presence.

What had I received? I had received the Bible evidence. This Bible evidence is wonderful to me. I knew I had received the very evidence of the Spirit's incoming that the Apostles received on the day of Pentecost. I knew that everything I had had up to that time was in the nature of an anointing bringing me in line with God in preparation, but now I knew I had the Biblical Baptism in the Spirit. It had the backing of the Scriptures. You are always right when you have the backing of the Scriptures and you are never right if you have not a foundation for your testimony in the Word of God.

For many years I have thrown out a challenge to any person who can prove to me that he has the Baptism without speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance-to prove it by the Word that he has been baptized in the Holy Ghost without the Bible evidence, but so far no one has accepted the challenge. I only say this because so many were as I was; they have a rigid idea that they have received the Baptism without the Bible evidence. The Lord Jesus wants those who preach the Word to have the Word in evidence. Don't be misled by anything else. Have a Bible proof for all you have, and then you will be in a place where no man can move you.

I was so full of joy that I wired home to say that I had received the Holy Ghost. As soon as I got home, my boy came running up to me and said, "Father, have you received the Holy Ghost?" I said, "Yes, my boy." He said, "Let's hear you speak in tongues." But I could not. Why? I had received the Baptism in the Spirit with the speaking in tongues as the Bible evidence according to Acts 2:4, and had not received the gift of Tongues according to 1 Corinthians 12. I had received the Giver of all gifts. At some time later when I was helping some souls to seek and receive the Baptism of the Spirit, God gave me the gift of Tongues so that I could speak at any time. I could speak, but will not-no never! I must allow the Holy Ghost to use the gift. It should be so, so that we shall have divine utterances only by the Spirit. I would be very sorry to use a gift, but the Giver has all power to use the whole nine gifts.

I want to take you to the Scriptures to prove my position. There are business men here, and they know that in cases of law, where there are two clear witnesses they could win a case before any judge in Australia. On the clear evidence of two witnesses any judge will give a verdict. What has God given us? Three clear witnesses on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit-more than are necessary in law courts.

The first is in Acts 2:4, "They were all filled with tile Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Here we have the original pattern. And God gave to Peter an eternal word that couples this experience with the promise that went before. "This is that." And God wants you to have thatnothing less than that. He wants you to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit according to this original Pentecostal pattern.

In Acts 10 we have another witness. Peter is in the house of Cornelius. Cornelius had had a vision of a holy angel and had sent for Peter. A person said to me one day, "You don't admit that I am filled and baptized with the Holy Ghost. Why, I was ten days and ten nights on my back before the Lord and He was flooding my soul with joy." I said, "Praise the Lord, sister, that was only the beginning. The disciples were tarrying that time, and they were still, and the mighty power of God fell upon them then and the Bible tells what happened when the power fell. And that is just what happened in the house of Cornelius. The Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost." What convinced these prejudiced Jews that the Holy Ghost had come? "For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." There was no other way for them to know. This evidence could not be contradicted. It is the Bible evidence.

We have heard two witnesses, and that is sufficient to satisfy the world. But God goes one better. Let us look at Acts 19:6, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues and prophesied." These Ephesians received the identical Bible evidence as the Apostles at the beginning and they prophesied in addition. Three times the Scriptures show us this evidence of the Baptism in the Spirit. I do not magnify tongues. No, by God's grace, I magnify the Giver of tongues. And I magnify above all Him whom the Holy Ghost has come to reveal to us, the Lord Jesus Christ. He it is who sends the Holy Spirit and I magnify Him because He makes no difference between us and those at the beginning.

But what are tongues for? Look at the 2nd verse of 1 Cor. 14 and you will see a very blessed truth. Oh, Hallelujah! Have you been there, beloved? I tell you, God wants to take you there. "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue, speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." It goes on to say, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself."

Enter into the promises of God. It is your inheritance. You will do more in one year if you are really filled with the Holy Ghost than you could do in fifty years apart from Him. [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=255]Link[/url]

Katy, I enjoyed your exposition immensely. I'm not going to have to time to read the whole thread so I'm taking Compliments' statement that you believe in the gift of tongues, unless you rebut it.

You said

On the other hand, He deplored the babblings of pagan religions:

Of course, He would not have been in favour of demon-induced babblings, to which you seem to alluding in your reference to the church at Corinth.

I think it might also be worth remembering that the kind of practices taking place in the idolatry with which the Corinthians were so familiar, included the taking of potions to dull and confuse the senses; noise (pagan music also, perhaps) may have added to the tumult. Paul is saying now things must be done from clarity of mind, one at a time, decently and in order, with full attention by everyone being given to the word which God wants to bring forth through one and another.

This is quite a long way from what Jesus was getting at in Matt 6:7.

Compliments, here is a great article on slain in the spirit...a must read:

http://www.letusreason.org/Pent14%20.htm

Now for your question:

Ok, lets get down to the brass tacks. Sister Katy, is the speaking in an unknown tongue and the interpretation of that unknown tongue occur in the Church that you attend? I know you believe in the gift of tongues, but does it happen in your Church?

Everyone in my Church speaks English.....so why would an OTHER tongue be necessary?

Love in Christ
Katy_did

PS: Added

Compliments

"What would your response be to the account of the following New York missionary?"

During the 1800's, cripples, paralytics and the blind were healed "as in the days of old, by laying on of hands in the name of Jesus," under a New York missionaries ministry. Healing recipients, praising God, rushed to gather ill friends and neighbors who were also healed. Seeing the miracles, converts clamored to receive baptism and join the church...of a Mormon missionary.

Biblical theology soundly refutes the central teachings of Mormonism as blatantly cultic and unscriptural. Until one discovers that the missionary was Mormon, such testimony is apt to inspire an elated chorus of "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Thank you, Jesus!" The moral of this anecdote is: just because miracles occur, Jesus is not necessarily the power behind them.

Katy, I enjoyed your exposition immensely. I'm not going to have to time to read the whole thread so I'm taking Compliments' statement that you believe in the gift of tongues, unless you rebut it.

Dorcas, I believe Missionaries may possibly have this special Gift when going into countries of languages they don't know.

On the other hand, why does Wycliff Ministries spend so much time with linguists learning others languages? This is what my Son does.

And again, why on earth does Benny Hinn need an interpreter when going to India or other countries. Is he not speaking English and they are intrepreting in the native language? There were no interpreters on the day of Pentecost as every man heard is his own language.

Paul is scolding those in Corinth, speaking in pagan jibber jabber (yes, they also had phenomena of hearing jibber jabber from their pagan gods) and insists there need be an interpreter.

Other than that, with Mormons as well speaking in tongues as well as getting slain in the spirit, I'm not impressed with any of it. If I heard someone speak in an unknown jibber jabber, and claimed it was of God, then why didn't Jesus himself speak in this jibber jabber.

My article is to verify and qualify what happened at Pentacost. The Corinthians were from pagan religions, and 1st Corinthians 12-14, if read very very carefully will attest that Paul was indeed scolding these baby Christians.

Tongues is never mentioned again, with and through out the NT. Tongues is never once mentioned in Hebrews. However Salvation is.

Love in Christ
Katy_did
-
Added here too:"What would your response be to the account of the following New York missionary?"

During the 1800's, cripples, paralytics and the blind were healed "as in the days of old, by laying on of hands in the name of Jesus," under a New York missionaries ministry. Healing recipients, praising God, rushed to gather ill friends and neighbors who were also healed. Seeing the miracles, converts clamored to receive baptism and join the church...of a Mormon missionary.

Biblical theology soundly refutes the central teachings of Mormonism as blatantly cultic and unscriptural. Until one discovers that the missionary was Mormon, such testimony is apt to inspire an elated chorus of "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Thank you, Jesus!" The moral of this anecdote is: just because miracles occur, Jesus is not necessarily the power behind them

Speaking in Tongues

By:
Lehman Strauss , Litt.D., F.R.G.S.

Men (and women) will be having their say until our Lord returns to settle this matter once and for all time. It is difficult to say how, when and where the modern tongues movement began. In the many pamphlets and books I have examined opinions differ. We do know that the phenomenon of tongues-speaking is widespread, and it is likely that no issue in Christendom has caused as wide a split in its ranks in modern times as has speaking in tongues.

All Bible-believing Christians who study the Word of God are in agreement that the gift of tongues is present in the inspired Scriptures. In the New Testament two lists of gifts appear in which the gift of tongues is included. In I Corinthians 12:8-11 “kinds of tongues” and “the interpretation of tongues” are said to be sovereignly bestowed gifts of the Holy Spirit. In I Corinthians 12:28-30 “tongues” appears in the list of gifts. We call them “spiritual gifts” from the Greek word charisma, suggesting that the gift is a bestowment of God’s grace. It is not a natural ability that one might develop, but rather a special gift as those appearing in the above mentioned passages in First Corinthians.

The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the distribution of these gifts. Following the listing of the gifts, Paul adds, “But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will” (I Corinthians 12:11). No one person has all the gifts, nor are we to seek the gifts. We must be careful that we do not confuse the Spirit as a gift to the believer with the gifts the Spirit gives to believers. Every believer has received the gift of the Spirit, but not every believer has received the gifts which the Spirit bestows.

The Meaning of Speaking in Tongues
In my travels many persons have approached me with questions about tongues. Some of them ask about its meaning. The term that is used to identify the tongues movement is “glossolalia,” made up of two Greek words, glossa (language or tongue) and lalia (speech). It therefore means speaking in languages or tongues. Glossology is that department of anthropology which has to do with the study and classification of languages and dialects.

The word glossa appears in the Greek New Testament not less than fifty times. It is used to refer to the physical organ of the tongue as in James 3:5; once in reference to the flames of fire shaped like tongues (Acts 2:3); at least once in a metaphorical sense when referring to speech as in the statement, “my tongue (speech) was glad (joyous)” (Acts 2:26). As far as I understand the remaining usages of the word it always means a language.

When our Lord predicted the gift of tongues (the only mention of tongues in the four Gospel records) He said, “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues” (Mark 16:17). The adjective “new” (Gr. kainos) can only mean they were going to speak in languages new to them, that is, languages they had not learned or used until that time. If I say the Russian language is “new” to me, I do not mean that I never knew there was such a language, but rather its use by me is new to me because I can neither speak it nor understand it when I hear others speak it. On the other hand the German language is not altogether “new” to me because I can both read and speak it with a small degree of understanding.

In Acts 2:4 Luke uses a different adjective when he says, “they began to speak with other tongues.” The word “other” (Gr. heteros) simply means that they spoke in languages different from the normal language they were used to. The context substantiates this. Notice the surprised reaction on the part of the hearers—“And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?” (Acts 2:7,8). Every man heard them speak in his own language (Acts 2:6). Here the word “language” is the translation of dialekto from which our word “dialect” comes. The two words glossa (tongue) and dialektos (language) are used synonymously, making it obvious that the disciples were speaking in known languages other than the language native to them. In verses 9-11 the languages are then identified. It was a miraculous phenomenon which enabled the disciples to speak in languages which they had never learned. Here in this Acts passage we have tongues-speaking in its pure and unperverted form as God gave it.

The following verses in the Book of the Revelation should be examined carefully (Revelation 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15). In each passage where the word “tongue” is mentioned it means one of the languages associated with the various nationalities and races. I see no reason why anyone should raise a question as to the tongues in those passages in Mark, Acts and Revelation meaning languages.

But the more serious problems arise in the interpretation of the twenty-one references to tongues in First Corinthians chapters 12-14. There are those who tell us that the tongues in First Corinthians are ecstatic utterances not known in any country on earth. They base their conclusion on the term “unknown” which appears in I Corinthians 14:2, 4, 13, 14, 19, and 27. But the reader of this chapter in God’s Word must not fail to observe that the word “unknown” in every place where it appears is in italicized letters, which means that it does not occur in any Greek manuscript but was inserted by translators. The Holy Spirit did not direct Paul to write that the tongue is unknown.

I find no warrant for changing the meaning of tongues in First Corinthians. In every other place where the word is used it means languages. Why then should the meaning be changed in First Corinthians? I know of no textual license that will warrant changing the meaning of the word. All the usages of tongues in Paul’s treatment of the subject refer to foreign languages. “So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into air” (I Corinthians 14:9).

There is no reason for anyone to speak except to converse intelligibly. The Greek word laleo means “I speak.” The word is never used for mere sound or noise. Nor is it used for a mere mumbling or muttering of unintelligible gibberish. The tongues-speaking in the New Testament was in the native languages of hearing people. The supernatural phenomenon which took place at Pentecost was the exercise of a gift whereby many people from many countries, gathered at Jerusalem, heard God’s message in their own language. This was indeed a miracle of God.

It would be an arbitrary and strange interpretation of Scripture that would make tongues-speaking in the New Testament anything other than known languages. There is no trace of Scriptural evidence that tongues were ever heard by anyone as incoherent, incomprehensible babbling.

The Ministry of Speaking in Tongues
At this point in our study we shall pursue an examination of the reasons why God gave the gift of speaking in tongues.

First, to communicate the Gospel message. With unmistakable clarity Paul says, “Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not . . . ” (I Corinthians 14:22). The word “sign” (Gr. semeion) in the New Testament is often associated with the conveying of a Divinely-given message to unbelievers. This is the emphasis in John 20:30, 31 where we read, “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.” The signs (miracles) were never performed without purpose, but because of the message they communicated.

The true function of the gift of tongues is “for a sign . . . to them that believe not.” To exercise the gift when unbelievers were not present would be exercising the gift above the purpose for which it was given. The gifts were never given for the self-satisfaction or self-glory of the recipients. The one upon whom the gift was bestowed was merely an instrument through whom God wanted to communicate His message.

Because of the abuse and misuse of tongues in the Corinthian Assembly Paul states its purpose. The spiritual immaturity of the saints in Corinth called for instruction, so in the middle of his discourse on tongues he writes, “Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men” (I Corinthians 14:20). The Greek word for “men” (teleios) means mature. In their misuse of speaking in tongues they were showing their immaturity, a behaviour pattern which characterized the believers at Corinth. The Apostle reminded them that they remained “babes in Christ” (3:1).

Their failure to grow up spiritually resulted from their neglected study of the Scriptures. The Epistle to the Hebrews stresses this point. “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil” (Hebrews 5: 12-14). Peter wrote, “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the Word, that ye may grow thereby” (I Peter 2:2). One will find confusion and license where the study of God’s Word is neglected.

Now let us return to I Corinthians 14:20. Immediately upon rebuking them with the words, “Brethren, be not children in understanding,” Paul adds, “In the law it is written . . . ” (Vs. 21), thereby pointing out their weakness, namely, their failure to acquaint themselves with that which was written in the Old Testament Scriptures. They had failed to study God’s Word, therefore they had become victims of arrested development.

Speaking in tongues was a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit, but it, or any other gift, can be misused. Speaking in tongues was no mark of spirituality, because the Corinthian church was unspiritual, having manifested carnality (3:1-3) and even gross sin (5:1). And so Paul points them to a Scripture they should have known, saying, “In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord” (12:21).

Paul is here referring to a prophecy God had given through Isaiah. The nation of Israel had failed to heed God’s message which He gave through their own prophets, so the Lord told them that at a future time they will hear His message through tongues (languages) other than their own. “For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people “ (Isaiah 28: 12). Thus Paul sees in this Isaiah prophecy the gift of tongues as a sign to Israel. The words “this people” in Isaiah 28: 11, in its context, can refer only to Israel. The abuse of tongues-speaking in Corinth did not arise from the belief in speaking in tongues, but rather in the neglect of the Scriptures which teach its proper use.

This purpose of the gift of tongues, namely to communicate God’s message to Israel, is verified in the three passages in Acts where speaking in tongues is mentioned. In Acts 2 tongues-speaking was used as a missionary or evangelistic tool in fulfillment of Isaiah 28:11. There was no need for the disciples to learn other languages before they could communicate the Gospel. God overcame the language barrier through the miracle-gift of tongues. On the day of Pentecost there were “Jews out of every nation under heaven” (Acts 2: 5). And when the disciples “began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts 2:4), the hearers responded with the question, “And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?” (Acts 2:8). Observe that they were “Jews” from other countries who spoke many languages and dialects, and yet each heard the Gospel in his own tongue. Isaiah’s prophecy was being fulfilled.

In Acts 10:46 the second mention of speaking in tongues occurs. The occasion again was to communicate the Gospel, this time for the purpose of effecting the conversion of Cornelius and his house. This event cannot be totally disassociated from Pentecost because Peter, when relating this experience, said, “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning” (Acts 11: 15). At the house of Cornelius tongues-speaking was a sign to Jews at a time when the Gospel was being communicated (Acts 10:44-46).

In Acts 19:6 there appears the third passage in Acts in which speaking in tongues is recorded. Again its purpose was missionary and evangelistic. When Paul came to Ephesus he encountered twelve disciples of John the Baptist. He asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Ghost when (not since) you believed?” (Acts 19:2, see the R.V.). These at Ephesus considered themselves to be Christians because they had heard through Apollos the message of John. You see, there is a belief unto salvation and a belief that does not result in salvation. The latter is a mere academic, intellectual belief that even Satan and the demons have (James 2:19. cf. Mark 5:7). Doubtless there are people today who have an historical faith in Jesus Christ as a man and even the Son of God, but who have not been saved. Paul suspected that such was the case with the disciples of John whom he met at Ephesus. When he learned they were not saved, he told them they must trust Christ for their salvation. We can understand the confusion they might have experienced, therefore some evidential sign was necessary. “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied” (Acts 19:6). Again the purpose for speaking in tongues is obvious, namely, to communicate the Gospel message.

These are the only instances of tongues-speaking recorded in the Bible, except the passage in First Corinthians. None of the later Epistles mention speaking in tongues. The gift was used only in the transitional period between Law and Grace. The sign gifts continued through the period of the Apostles while the New Testament was in the process of being written.

Second, to confirm the Gospel message. It was not merely a communicating sign but a confirmatory sign as well. When the Apostles used the gift of tongues it was because they did not have what you and I have today, the completed Word of God, God’s full and final revelation to man. When they went about preaching the Gospel, their message was confirmed by the exercise of the sign gifts. Tongues-speaking vindicated both the message and the messenger. “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds” (II Corinthians 12:12). If one could find an Apostle living today who saw the bodily-resurrected Lord Jesus, he would not be exercising the sign gifts because he would have what you and I have, and what Peter, Paul and John did not have, the completed written Word of God. Now that we have the Scriptures we do not need miracles to confirm God’s message.

Signs were for the Jews rather than for Gentiles. “For the Jews require a sign . . . ” (I Corinthians 1:22). Repeatedly it was the Jews who asked for a sign. “Then certain of the Scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from Thee” (Matthew 12:38). Again, “The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired Him that He would shew them a sign from heaven” (Matthew 16 :1). “Then answered the Jews and said unto Him, What sign shewest Thou unto us, seeing that Thou doest these things?” (John 2: 18). “They said therefore unto Him, What sign shewest Thou then, that we may see and believe Thee? What dost Thou work?” (John 6:30). All these who asked for a sign were Jews, and their insistence upon signs will at last be their sad undoing.

During the Tribulation the Antichrist will appear, “whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders” (II Thessalonians 2:9), and at that time many Jews will be deceived into receiving the Antichrist as their Messiah.

Let us who are Christ’s not be seeking signs as did the unbelieving Jews. We who are the Lord’s have the Holy Scriptures, so let us “walk by faith, not by sight” (II Corinthians 5:7). Whenever the gift of tongues was exercised Jews were present, tongues-speaking being used either to communicate the Gospel or else to confirm to the Jews that the Gentiles were worthy of salvation and should therefore have the Gospel also. Such confirmations are seen in Acts 10:45 and 19:6. “And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen” (Mark 16:20).

If anyone denies the message of God’s written Word today, there is no other court of appeal. In the days of the Apostles, the New Testament being yet unwritten, the Holy Spirit supported their message by accompanying it with signs. But after those holy and inspired men completed writing the New Testament, such confirmations were no longer necessary. The rich man in Hell asked Abraham to send Lazarus from the dead that he might witness to his five unsaved brothers, hoping that such a sign (or miracle) would lead them to repent. But Abraham replied, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16: 27-31). The Pentecostal sign ushered in a new age before the New Testament was written. But if men reject God’s inspired Word now, they need not look for any supernatural signs.

A significant New Testament passage which adds to the fact that the sign gifts were given to confirm the Gospel message is Hebrews 2:3,4: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to His own will?” If the Epistle to the Hebrews was written between 65 and 70 A.D. it would be obvious that the people to whom the message was “confirmed” with signs and gifts were that generation immediately following our Lord’s death.

The Mistakes About Speaking in Tongues
As an introduction to this part of our study, I want you to see Paul’s introduction to the subject of spiritual gifts. And incidentally, this is the only place in the entire Bible where spiritual gifts are discussed. The Apostle writes, “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant” (I Corinthians 12: 1). In the Authorized Version the word “gifts” is in italicized letters, telling us that it did not appear in any of the Greek manuscripts but was inserted by translators. Paul actually said to the Corinthians, “I don’t want you to be ignorant about pneumatica” (the spirituals), meaning of course the spiritual gifts.

Now the Corinthians were not ignorant of the fact of the spiritual gifts, for the Apostle had already said to them, “Ye come behind in no gift” (l :7). When he said, “I would not have you ignorant”, he was not speaking about their ignorance of the existence of the gifts, but rather about their ignorance of the right exercise of the gifts. They were well informed as to what the spiritual gifts were, but they were ignorant about the proper use of the gifts, as is evidenced by the mistakes they made in their exercise of them.

Before Paul launches into a discussion of the spiritual gifts, he reminds them of how easily they were led astray. He says, “ye know that ye were gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led” (12:2). In substance he is saying, “Before you tell me about your experience let me remind you of your lack of spirituality (3:1), and therefore your inability to discern between the Holy Spirit and false spirits” (2:15). Because they were carnal, “babes in Christ” (3:1), their exercise of the gifts were self-induced by fleshly energy, not by the Holy Spirit. All Christians do not use their gifts properly, so that a Christian’s use of a gift might not be in accord with the Word of God. Mistakes can be made by any of us in the exercise of a gift.

(1) It is a mistake to assume that speaking in tongues is synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is unscriptural teaching which says that all who are baptized by the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues. The Scriptures state emphatically that all saved persons have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body . . . ” (I Corinthians 12:13). All the believers at Corinth received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, however all did not speak in tongues. The question asked in verse 30, “Do all speak with tongues?” is so phrased so as to convey the expected answer, “No.”

The baptizing work of the Spirit is not an experience in the believer subsequent to salvation. Rather it is that act of the Holy Spirit which joins the believing sinner to the Body of Christ. More emphatically, there is no other means whereby one can become a member of the Church which is Christ’s Body. All saved persons have been baptized by the Holy Spirit, but not all saved persons speak in tongues. The baptizing work of the Spirit places the believer in the Body positionally.

Be careful that you do not confuse the baptism of the Spirit with the command to be “filled with the Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18). All believers share equally in this position in Christ and thus share equally in union with Him. There is only one experience of baptism by the Holy Spirit but there can be many experiences of being filled with Spirit. Paul said that not all of the Corinthian Christians spoke in tongues (I Corinthians 14: 5), and yet he stated clearly that all had been baptized with the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13).

(2) It is a mistake to assume that speaking in tongues is an evidence of being filled with the Spirit. All believers are commanded to “be filled with (controlled by) the Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18), but nowhere in Scripture are believers commanded to speak in tongues. A Christian can be under the influence and control of the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues. There are numerous instances when the disciples were filled with the Spirit but did not speak in tongues. See Acts 4:31 and 13:9-11. To be Spirit-filled is to be Spirit-controlled. Are we to believe that the thousands of mightily used men and women of God who were among the world’s best missionaries of Christ’s Gospel and Bible teachers were never filled with the Holy Spirit because they never spoke in tongues? Perish the thought!

Can one know if he is filled with the Spirit? Look at one verse in the Bible where the command to be filled with the Spirit is recorded. “And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God” (Ephesians 5:18-21). Three things are mentioned as evidence of being Spirit-filled; a joyful heart, a thankful heart and a submissive heart. Nothing is said about speaking in tongues. To sum it up in one word, Christlikeness is the manifestation of being filled with the Spirit, and the Scriptures do not tell us that our Lord ever spoke in tongues.

(3) It is a mistake to assume that speaking in tongues is the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit results from being filled with the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is mentioned in Galatians 5:22, 23 and includes nine characteristics. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.” None of the sign-gifts are included in this nine-fold cluster of fruit. The Christian who is filled with the Spirit will manifest the fruit of the Spirit apart from ever having spoken in tongues. As a matter of fact, in Ephesians and Galatians, where the fullness and fruit of the Spirit are discussed tongues-speaking is not mentioned once. Moreover, in the list of gifts mentioned by Paul, gifts that the ascended Lord bestowed upon His Church, the sign gifts are omitted. “And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers” (Ephesians 4:11).

All Christians should be filled with the Spirit and all are to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, but not every Christian has all the gifts. Spirituality does not depend on speaking in tongues. God’s goal for every child of His is to be Spirit-controlled, but that goal does not include speaking in tongues. No Christian need ever feel that he is lacking in spirituality because he has not spoken in tongues. Quality of life is the best evidence of the fullness and fruit of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptizer was filled with the Spirit from his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15), yet this Spirit-filled man did no miracles and never spoke in tongues (John 10:41). But he was so Christ-like that people who were looking for the Messiah were led to ask of him, “Art thou the Christ?”

(4) It is a mistake to assume that speaking in tongues is an evidence of one’s faith. To the contrary, the persons who seek signs and sign-gifts show their lack of faith. It is a sin for any Christian to seek for signs before he will believe God’s Word. As was pointed out earlier in this study, “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (I Corinthians 14: 22). So you see, the Christians at Corinth were showing that they were weak in faith, and possibly some who identified themselves with the believer had never been saved. The person who seeks any sign, whether it be speaking in tongues or any other sign-gift, is either a babe in Christ or an unbeliever.

Thomas is an illustration of a disciple weak in faith who would not believe without seeing. After our Lord arose from death, He appeared to the disciples. “But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, I will not believe” (John 20:24, 25). Thomas was like the Corinthians, weak in faith, demanding to see the sign (miracle) before he would believe.

Eight days later the Lord appeared again. “Then saith He to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless but believing.” (John 20:27). The doubting Thomas needed a sign, so the Lord appeared to him so that he would not continue without faith. And then He said to Thomas, “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20: 29). The Christian who will study the Bible and believe what it says will walk by faith, not by sight or sound.

(5) It is a mistake to seek the gift of speaking in tongues. It is clear that not all in the church at Corinth spoke in tongues. Why didn’t they? The Apostle says, “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit . . . for to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will” (I Corinthians 12:4-11). Please note that the gifts were given “as He (the Holy Spirit) will,” not as we will, “as it hath pleased Him” (vs. 18), not us. The reason why all the Christians did not have the gift of tongues is because all of the gifts are divinely bestowed. The Spirit divides and distributes to each believer his own gift. Not one of us is capable of choosing his own gift. The Spirit will not give a gift according to our desire and the way we pray. Don’t try to tell God which gift He should give to you. We are but members of the Body, and no one member has any right to tell the Head what to do.

It would have been a mistake for the Corinthians to seek the gift of tongues because it is the least of all the gifts. Where the gifts are listed twice in I Corinthians 12, in each instance tongues and their interpretation are placed last (verses 8-11 and 28-30). Note the careful wording in the latter passage: “First . . . secondarily . . . thirdly . . . after that . . . ” The least to be desired comes at the bottom of the list, the scale being according to importance and usefulness. The minor place of tongues is further stressed in I Corinthians 14:1, 5, 6, 19. The modern cult of tongues would have you believe that this gift is the only one that really counts and that every Christian ought to have it. The Corinthians erred in overemphasizing the gift of tongues as the most coveted gift of all. To them tongues was the prestige gift, hence its misuse and abuse at Corinth.

Paul charges them with such misuse of the gifts in 12:31. When he writes, “But covet earnestly the best gifts . . .” he is not exhorting or commanding them, as the imperative mood might indicate. Rather he is issuing a statement of fact, as is suggested in the indicative. In substance he is saying, “You are selfishly desiring the more spectacular or demonstrative gifts.” The word “covet” is not used in a good sense, but in a bad sense, that of self-seeking. “You are not satisfied to be a foot, concealed in a stocking and shoe; you want to be an eye. You want to be seen and heard.” And then the Apostle adds, “Yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (love), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal “ (I Corinthians 12:31,13:1).

A young man who claimed to have the gift of speaking in tongues told me that the biblical basis for his doing so was I Corinthians 14:4, namely, self-edification. But this is both selfish and wrong. Paul did say, “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself” (14:4), but then he added, “Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the Church” (14:12). The gifts were given for the edification and profit of the entire Body of Christ, not merely one member. “The members should have the same care one for another” (12:25). Self-edification is contrary to the principle of love as taught in Chapter 13, for “love seeketh not her own” (13:5). The gifts were given for the common good of all (12:7).

(6) It is a mistake for a woman to speak in tongues. “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak . . .” (14:34). The prohibition here has a direct relation to the problem with which the Apostle is dealing, namely, speaking in tongues. Earlier in the same Epistle he told the women how to dress when they prayed or prophesied in the church (11 :3-10), therefore he would not forbid them here in Chapter 14 that privilege which is countenanced in Chapter 11. The setting of I Corinthians 14:34 has reference primarily to women speaking in tongues. It is clear and unmistakable that speaking in tongues was a gift limited to men and is never to be exercised by women. Now he is not saying that women may not teach or testify or pray, but that they may not speak in tongues. Elsewhere Paul writes, “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence” (I Timothy 2: 12). The point of this passage is that a woman’s ministry must not usurp authority over the man. She may teach women or children, but not men.

If this admonition were heeded today much of the present tongues movement would be eliminated. Women are the worst offenders in the modern confusion of tongues. The word “speak” in 14:34 is the same word used in verse 28, therefore it cannot mean mere “chatter” that would disturb a service in the church. The purpose of this entire section on speaking in tongues is to curb the wrong use of the gift. Verses 27-33 give instruction for men in the matter of speaking in tongues. “If any man speak in an unknown tongue . . .” (14:27); verses 34-36 are directed to “women” exercising the gift of tongues. And if any women wanted to take issue with Paul, he would ask them one question, “Which book in all the inspired Scriptures was written as the result of the Holy Spirit revealing the woman?” (Verse 36). It is a mistake for a woman to speak in tongues.

(7) It is a mistake to assume that the sign-gifts are given to believers today. Now I am not arbitrarily closing the door on miracles. God does intervene in supernatural ways performing miracles when and wherever He pleases to do so. The matter before us now is whether or not the Bible teaches that certain gifts were temporarily given. The evidence of God’s Word must be the final source of authority. I am stressing this because there are many persons who are not students of the Bible, therefore their only source of knowledge and understanding is subjective, namely, reason or experience. Whatever appeals to their reason, or whatever experiences they have had, settle a matter for them once and for all time.

It is not uncommon to hear someone say something like this: “I cannot believe in Hell because I cannot conceive a loving God sending anyone to such a place of torment.” Such persons might listen to clear and sound expositions on the biblical doctrine of Hell, and yet they will reject what the Bible teaches because of their inner feelings and rationale. And so their rationalization becomes their final authority.

Now I am not suggesting that there is no validity in experience or reason. I am quite sure that there are times when one’s reason and experience are correct and therefore reliable. But neither reason nor experience can be accepted as final authority. Someone will argue: “I have had the experience of speaking in tongues; I find this experience in the New Testament; therefore my experience is true.” Any trained Christian philosopher will tell you that such an argument is not valid because it makes experience the basis of truth, so if one does not experience all of the experiences he does not have all of the truth. True Christian philosophy moves from truth to experience, therefore any valid Christian experience must be determined by the right interpretation of Holy Scripture. Experience, which is related to our emotions, can be deceptive, but a correct interpretation of God’s Word can never deceive.

We come now to the question, Is the gift of tongues a part of God’s program for the Church today? If it is, then we would be wrong if we closed our minds to it. If it is not, then we are wrong if we insist upon the exercise of tongues-speaking.

Let us turn to I Corinthians 13. Now keep in mind the fact that the subject in Chapters 12-14 is spiritual gifts with the main emphasis on tongues, because tongues was the one gift that the Corinthians were abusing. Chapter 12 concludes with “tongues” (12:30) and Chapter 13 begins with “tongues” (13:1). Obviously from the behavior of the Corinthians they were lacking in the fruit of the Spirit, namely, love. And so in Chapter 13 the Apostle dwells upon the essential ingredient of love which supercedes the gifts, and without which the Christian is nothing at all.

Among the Corinthians there were quarreling and division, but the needed fruit of the Spirit, love, was missing, so Paul writes, “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (or love), I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal” (13 :1). In Corinth the tongues-speaking amounted to so much noise because carnality had invaded their exercise of the gift. Even today there is a kind of spiritual prestige associated with tongues-speaking. For a Christian to show off any gift that God has given manifests pride that is lacking in love. Where love is lacking, the exercise of any gift is worthless.

If Christians would take seriously, within context, all of the teaching about tongues in I Corinthians, they could not fail to see that tongues-speaking would cease. Paul writes, “Charity (love) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away” (13:8). There will always be the need for love, therefore love will never drop off. But when the canon of Scripture is made “perfect” (or complete), there will be no further revelation from God, neither in predictive prophecy nor in divinely revealed knowledge other than prophecy. The gifts of “prophecy” and “knowledge” will be entirely unnecessary with the completion of the Scriptures. And “if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book” (Revelation 22:18).

Paul acknowledged the incomplete nature of the Scriptures in his day when he said, “For we know in part, and we prophecy in part” (13:9), or more literally from the Greek, “For in part we are knowing, and in part we are prophesying.” Then he adds, “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (13:10). The word perfect is in the neuter gender, and therefore refers to the perfect (finished or completed) Word of God. If the word perfect referred to Christ it would be in the masculine gender. The sign gifts were “done away” (rendered inoperative) with the completion of the New Testament.

Now what about tongues? “Whether there be tongues, they shall cease” (13:8). Tongues shall cease (Gr. patio), that is, they shall come to a complete halt. Who needs tongues? Only the untaught, carnal babes in Christ, for Paul added, “When I was a child, I spake as a child . . . but when I became a man, I put away childish things” (13:11). The word “spake” in context can only refer to speaking in tongues. So that Paul himself came to the place of Christian maturity, through God’s revelation to him, where tongues were no longer necessary. And so in the same tongues context he admonishes the Corinthians, “Brethren, be not children in understanding . . . but in understanding be men” (14:20). Experientially, tongues cease when the Christian matures on a diet of the meat of God’s Word. Actually tongues is baby talk.

For the past two years I have made it my practice to ask many of the leading Bible teachers and scholars, some of whom having a rich working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, if they have ever spoken in tongues. Among them are college and seminary presidents and professors. To date I have not had one of about sixty men tell me that he ever spoke in tongues!

I have been asked if I ever spoke in tongues. No, I have not. God and I have gotten along nicely for the past forty-five years in English. I speak to Him in English and He hears and understands me. He speaks to me in English through His Word, and I understand Him.

How then can we account for the wide-spread practice of speaking in tongues? I do not have all of the answers to this question, but I will make three suggestions for your prayer consideration.

First, speaking in tongues can be self-induced. Second, speaking in tongues can be group-induced. Third, speaking in tongues can be satanically-induced.

Since the creation of man Satan’s insidious master-plan has been to put a veil between God’s children and God’s inerrant Word. It began in the Garden of Eden when the Devil asked Mother Eve, “Yea, hath God said . . . ?” (Genesis 3: 1), thereby raising doubt as to the authority and authenticity of what God has said. We know that this enemy has stepped up the pace of his strategy.

Our present generation is witnessing the growing menace of satanic activity in the realm of the miraculous. Where the Devil does not succeed in taking the Bible from us, he works hard at taking us from the Bible. And he succeeds in getting Christians to focus their attention on the claims of men and women to some supernatural experience, and in so doing those seekers after the experiences of others have neither time nor interest in searching the Scriptures for God’s truth.

God does have a plan in His dealings with the human race, and that plan does not necessarily include the continuing repetition of the same miracles in every succeeding century. The miracles of God are rare occurrences in history. Enoch’s bodily translation from earth to heaven was the only recorded miracle performed by God in over 1700 years between Adam and the flood.

The Church of Christ does not need a new Bible, nor new apostles, nor new faith-healers, nor new charismatic movements, nor self-styled miracle workers. What the Church needs is to return to the Word of God and proclaim the whole counsel of God in the power and love of the Holy Spirit.

And if my reader has never had a personal experience of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, I urge you to receive Him at once, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).

Smith Wigglesworth said:

For many years I have thrown out a challenge to any person who can prove to me that he has the Baptism without speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance-to prove it by the Word that he has been baptized in the Holy Ghost without the Bible evidence, but so far no one has accepted the challenge. I only say this because so many were as I was; they have a rigid idea that they have received the Baptism without the Bible evidence. The Lord Jesus wants those who preach the Word to have the Word in evidence. Don't be misled by anything else. Have a Bible proof for all you have, and then you will be in a place where no man can move you.

The words of Paul again ring loud and clear,

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Why is it so hard to accept this? I am glad that I am labeled as "one of them".

Blessings to all.

The Church of Christ does not need a new Bible, nor new apostles, nor new faith-healers, nor new charismatic movements, nor self-styled miracle workers. What the Church needs is to return to the Word of God and proclaim the whole counsel of God in the power and love of the Holy Spirit.

The Church of Christ does not need a water down version of the Holy Bible. We need Apostles today, we need those gifted in the gifts of healing, we need all the gifts to be manifested like never before. We don't need another man made Christless movement, nor men who want to take the glory. What the Church needs is to return to the Word of God and proclaim the whole counsel of God in the power and love of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power

Katy-did said

There were no interpreters on the day of Pentecost as every man heard is his own language.

The gift of interpretation is scriptural. Is this what you have difficulty with.... that Paul implied he spoke with the tongues of angels?

Have you ever heard an interpretation of a tongue? (Is this what Compliments meant by his question?)

My impression of your stance is that because the use of tongues (seems to be something) you don't understand, and, it is not always an ecstatic utterance, you want it abandoned... not for any scriptural or spiritual reason, you just don't see why it should operate. Is this what you mean?

Isn't the gift of tongues just as any other gift, (including those special ministries which take over a person's whole life), of the Greek word 'charismata' - [i]graces[/i] - simply another manifestation of the life of the Holy Spirit in man in existence because [i][b]it pleases God[/i][/b]? - which is the only reason [i][b]any[/i][/b] of them need, either to exist or to flourish.

If I'm picking you up incorrectly, please keep putting me right. ;-)

The Church of Christ does not need a water down version of the Holy Bible.

Compliments, There are many versions of the Holy Bible. I actually prefer the KJV.

The problem isn't with the Bible, but how we receive the Truth written in the Holy Bible, God's Word, and obey what it says.

Psalms 1, I'm not questioning anyone's ministry, that is not for me to do. Several posts here were lengthy doctrinal positions on the subject.

(Added) and BTW Psalms 1, that post was not ADDRESSED to you to begin with, so no need for insulting and condescending remarks here please....another cause for unnecessary contention....)

As the Article I posted opened up in stating...,

"It is the one subject that has divided the Church more than any other subject". But WHO is causing the division???? Who is taking the most AGGRESSIVE approach in *telling others* they are not saved or spiritual because of Tongues. How utterly STUPID. Spirituality comes with OBEDIENCE, not tongues. Jesus Didn't die on a cross so we could all speak in tongues.

Because people are being HURT over this subject that is why many VERY GODLY MEN take ****opposite*** views, ALSO HAVING scripture to back up why they believe as they do.

I felt it important to also post those as well to bring balance to this discussion, and WHY there is division on the subject.

Isn't that the problem with the church today and those who continue to want to FORCE on you their own beliefs? The article I posted brought History and background, as well as my own research on the subject.

I also KNOW Satan can *counterfeit* feelings, miracles, healings etc. We are warned in these last days that anti-christ is coming with lying SIGNS AND WONDERS.

What we need is discernment to know the difference between the real and the LIE.

If scripture says that even God's elect will be deceived if possible, then it's going to take much prayer and discernment. That discernment comes through God's Word. It's the Word of God that is living and powerful and sharper than a two-edge sword that can pierce and divide truth from lie.

Satan is the author of confusion as well as causing divisions amongst brethren.

Maybe we should LISTEN to what EVERYONE has to say, and not PUT DOWN or INSULT the works of others because you are not in agreement. That right there is the beginning of contention.

Only GOD will know about Wigglesworth or who ever. Many will say...I did miracles, healings etc, and Jesus Clearly said He will reply back....(to some) I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Compliments and Psalms 1....That IS my final answer.

Love in Christ
Katy-did :-)

1 Corinthians 12:

1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Paul starts off the subject matter of Tongues, and Spiritual Gifts in the Beginning of 1st Corinthians 12, telling these new Christians coming from pagan gods (would seem like a no-brainer - huh?) that just because you *utter* something, that doesn't mean it is of God.

He clearly is giving the guidelines here one can UTTER, and curse God at the same time. He's even stating there is paganism going on.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

Jesus Didn't die on a cross so we could all speak in tongues.

I don't believe that anyone has inferred here that the speaking in tongues is a must for you to be saved.

One is saved by grace thru faith PERIOD!!

Now in regards to receiving the holy Spirit and the evidence thereof, we are now talking about a different thing altogether. You need to stop mixing salvation with the receiving of the holy Spirit and the speaking in other tongues. Even though they are very much connected, but please understand that the Eunuch that Philip baptized in water was saved by grace thru faith.

Even though we know it's not written that he received the holy Spirit, but he being a devout believer of the Jews religion no doubt came back to Jerusalem the following year and being in the company of other Christians would have found out about the baptism of holy Spirit sooner or later. (Pure Speculation)

8-)

Furthermore, we must maintain that this kind of reasoning is dangerous. Just because God did something in the past does not mean that He will do the same in the future in the exact same fashion.

For some it may take several years, for others when they come out of the baptismal tank. The method of when, how and the way one receives is always different, but when the holy Spirit comes in you will speak in tongues, that will never change.

For example, Annais and Sapphira were struck dead instantly for lying to the holy Ghost. Sam Kinison a former Pentecostal preacher turned anti God comedian died instantly in a car crash at the tender age of 38. There are many methods to which God uses to bring about death, but death is death that will always remain the same. But the method of that death changes.

We know this because everyone has a different story to tell about how they were born again. The circumstances the situations are all different, but it remains the same in regards to the Spirit's work in an individual, the light is turned on.

I love this testimony from Carter Conlon of Times Square Church.[url=http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID1755.mp3]Testimony[/url]

Now in regards to receiving the Holy Spirit and the evidence thereof, we are now talking about a different thing altogether. You need to stop mixing salvation with the receiving of the Holy Spirit and the speaking in other tongues. Even though they are very much connected, but please understand that the Eunuch that Philip baptized in water was saved by grace thru faith.

Compliments,
This is where this teaching is completely OFF balance.

Where does scripture teach one can be Born Again, Born OF THE SPIRIT, The Spirit of the Life of Christ that set you free from the Law of Sin and death without receiving the Holy Spirit? How many Holy Spirits are there?

This is where you don't understand the New Covenant of the promise of the SPIRIT.

Do you actually believe the Holy Spirit was promised in the New Covenant or New Testament to speak in tongues, or just to receive spiritual gifts?

The answer is, our Spiritual gifts accompany our new Birth, and there are no Spiritual Gift to those who are not born Again, born of the Spirit to begin with. It's JESUS who has given the Gifts to His Body to begin with. When we are Born Again, we are COMPLETE In Him...period!!!

You are suggesting what is called a second blessing, and no such thing exists.

Please refer to Cornelius. Was there a SECOND blessing mentioned when he received the Gospel?

Do you think Peter and Company went ALL that way, just for Cornelius to receive his gift of tongues? Obviously they were BOTH received in ONE sitting...ONE Baptism!

This is what I object to, this thing called a second Blessing, or an additional Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Tongues obviously were a SIGN one had received the Holy Spirit(Salvation) in this first Century Church.

You can't have it both ways. Cornelius did not have an ADDITIONAL Holy Spirit.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

but please understand that the Eunuch that Philip baptized in water was saved by grace thru faith

PS: And you are also suggesting Water Baptism saves....It does not, The RISEN Life of Jesus Christ SAVES. Our Life identified with Christ in death and resurrection life is our BAPTISM. Romans 6. Colossians 2 are VERY important scripture about our Baptism with Christ in death and resuttection life.

The SPIRIT that raised up Christ from the dead has also QUICKENED our mortal flesh, and raised us up together with Him, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!!! THIS same Holy Spirit promised in the New Covenant.

Hebrews 13:20&21 Romans 8:11-13

Do you believe the Bible???

Added, Let me re-phraise by say this on that last comment. If your faith does not produce your baptism into death and resurrection life, then you can forget the water thing.

Just as circumcision never saved a Jew, Baptism dies not save anyone. Both were OUTWARD SIGNS of a true faith. In the OT, TRUE Circumcision was that of the Heart and Ears. Circucision was the setting apart of a Holy People, as Abraham was not saved by Circumcision (romans 4) but by Faith. Our Baptism unto death and resurrection life In Christ is OUR setting Apart a Holy Priesthood, Jesus Christ, the Chief Cornerstone, of which the Jews stumbled, as well as many professing Christians....they stumbled at the CROSS,the stone of stumbling and Rock of offense.

The Cross is an offence to those who would avoid it at all costs.

As we see in 1 Corinthians, these were CARNAL Christians, who yes, received spiritual gifts.

Paul was rather more concerned with their maturity in understanding the Cross. Read the WHOLE Letter of 1st Corinthians, not just a verse or chapter. It was originally a WHOLE letter, addressing many ..."Christian's behaving badly" issues.

And you are also suggesting Water Baptism saves

Moving on.........

You can't have it both ways. Cornelius did not have an ADDITIONAL Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.8 And there was great joy in that city.12 [b]But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ[/b], they were baptized, both men and women.13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John, 15 [b]Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.[/b]

Katy-did said:

This is where this teaching is completely OFF balance.

Tongues obviously were a SIGN one had received the Holy Spirit(Salvation)

Kady-did,

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. Heb 5:12 KJV

Why has not God "instantly" struck down the various former Christians who have turned agnostic and atheistic? Many of them boast against God on YouTube and debate creationists.

As far as I understand, after turning his back on God, the man had a career in stand-up comedy and acting for sometime before he died

. One who subscribes to this doctrinal mindset blindly sweeps aside all evidence of Spirit-filled Christianity prior to 1901. You cannot prove one iota of what you claim is absolute, not by scripture, not by reason, not by history

I do not doubt for a moment that people received the holy Spirit before 1901, what I am saying is if they haven't spoken in tongues upon their receiving they were not filled with the Holy Spirit.

But can't men do a great work on the basis of being saved by grace thru faith? The Baptists do it. If this thinking is narrow minded, then I am narrow minded.

Do I stop reading the works of Luther, Clarke, Calvin because these men didn't receive the holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues? God forbid! And how do I know that they didn't, they might have. They are still my Brothers regardless. Am I better than they, ABSOLUTELY NOT!

You equate them as the same where as they are not. That is the OFF balance from your false interpretation of Scripture.

JulianSims: I'm also in good company with those who by your definition ONLY (no scripture to back up your comment)have a false interpretation.

You will not find any verse in scripture that says
"THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT". You may THINK you have found those EXACT words, but you have not.

Cornelius received the GIFT OF THE SPIRIT....Nothing says he received "THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT".

Also remember, when Jesus said many will come saying Haven't we done this or that, concerning miracles and wonders, He will say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

SO, My point IS, many will havethe ability to do miracles by the power of an unholy spirit...YET WERE [b][color=CC0000]NEVER SAVED[/color][/b].

Why will they be nashing and knawing their teeth, cursing God?

Probably because someone let them think because they spoke in tongues, or received the unholy spirit doing these wonders things , didn't also take them OUT OF ACTS into the Meat of the WORD to begin with. They may have realized they were missing something....SALVATION that preceeds.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

What do you think about that????

Katy-did wrote:

What do you think about that????

Your of a wrong Spirit. Your attitude and smart remarks to me and others are not of God but of yourself, your flesh. You think more highly of yourself then you ought. Some like yourself are just not teachable.

I'm done with this thread and speaking to you entirely on any subject. Your heart is not right. Your just wise in your own eyes.

While I've been writing this, I've been following the additional posts EDIT: Oops... not the last two, though... end. since Katy's as quoted below, and maybe realising that everyone seems to have an entrenched position... which doesn't mean to say that's wrong, but I want to entrench God's position in my thinking, and I believe scripture gives us a steady stream of exceptions, just to make sure we understand God holds the reins.

Hi Katy,

Please don't take offence (as if you would ;-) ) at what I'm about to put to you. I think you are a representative of a certain kind of all-or-nothing belief system, which usually is the best kind, but which can bring the most needy people into more rather than less bondage, if they can't attest to it for themselves. I think I used to be one of those, so rather than admit that the ministry didn't make any sense to my understanding, I tried to fit in, while shielding my aching soul from any possible discovery of the awful truth about my state. OK. That may have been wrong - pride, even - but my point is that God met me little by little as I was able to receive Him. He understood.

I have no idea who has said what or quite what the dispute is about, but I'm going to make what I believe is a fair assumption about you: that whenever you first received the Holy Spirit, you didn't know [i]all[/i] that you know now. And the research you do to learn about church history, cults and doctrines (etc.), is because before you do that research, you don't (already) [u]know[/u] what you're going to find out. In other words, you are open to [i]learn[/i] something you haven't grasped before, rather like Here4Him who has posted a touching exposition in the Scriptures forum, of his first-time discovery of the truth you expound here about our being planted in Christ's death and resurrection.

Therefore, when you say something like this:

You are suggesting what is called a second blessing, and no such thing exists.

For instance, you said

Please refer to Cornelius. Was there a SECOND blessing mentioned when he received the Gospel?

We also know that God had been pouring out his Spirit for service, in the Old Testament, speaking face-to-face with people like Noah and Abram, giving His word to prophets, anointing kings who would receive His word and promote the law. This was not new.

[i]Tongues[/i] were new, but [i]not[/i] the principle of God equipping His people by both a measure of His Spirit and other miraculous provisions.

Now, you may never have thought of these things like this, but it may be a more robust way to interpret [i]all[/i] that scripture reveals to us of God's historical movings, I believe.

Do you think Peter and Company went ALL that way, just for Cornelius to receive his gift of tongues? Obviously they were BOTH received in ONE sitting...ONE Baptism!

You can't have it both ways. Cornelius did not have an ADDITIONAL Holy Spirit.

Would it be dreadful to suggest that the 'ONE BAPTISM' might be discerned [u]in parts[/u] by some of those who receive it? That perhaps some people are in so much bondage that although the anointing they receive is, indeed, breaking the yoke in their experience, they cannot honestly testify to certain liberty until they are sure their graveclothes have been unwound?

This is what I object to, this thing called a second Blessing, or an additional Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Tongues obviously were a SIGN one had received the Holy Spirit(Salvation) in this first Century Church.

The Holy Spirit has other discernable functions. The application of Christ's death and resurrection life is one we cannot escape if we are to know Jesus personally, but this - knowing Jesus personally - was not a function the Spirit could have had before the incarnation, even if in spirit the prophets discerned Christ (I include David as a prophet.) and it is plain from scripture that believers don't all receive the same gifts.

You said 'we are COMPELETE' but, while you may mean [i]perfected[/i] in the sense of [i]completed[/i], we all have to grow.

I would add that I believe the parables of the talents also tell us that if we use the gifts we are given at first, they will be multiplied. Some people don't receive tongues until their faith has increased for that particular gift - not because tongues is\\was not available to them, but because they are\\were not available to tongues. Ever thought about that?

That might be just another application of the life of God to ours through the Holy Spirit [i]in our experience[/i]. But even God is necessarily limited by several factors, one of them being the kind of teaching we sat under before we received the spirit of adoption.

Now I've said all this, what do you make of the analysis offered by GW North in the book which Mike Balog has posted under the title 'A most important work'?

I'd recommend everyone to read the first dozen short pages because he addresses Christ's commissioning the disciples for service, [i]after His resurrection[/i] (which is what happens to us), for which they should wait to receive the Holy Spirit.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19654&forum=34&2]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19654&forum=34&2[/url]

Please [i]everyone[/i] take the distinctions GWN makes, into consideration and see? I think they may give all of us another angle to add to this discussion. I'd like to think so.

EDIT: Katy, thanks for bearing with me.

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Once again Compliments, Did anyone lay hands on Cornelius?

What about TODAY, do we need hands laid on us to receive the Holy Spirit?

Are you also saying Philip didn't have the power or authority to lay hands on those with him so they too could receive the Holy Spirit? Why would he deny them the full Gospel treatment? Is God a respector of Persons here?Or maybe Philip was a respector of persons!!??!!

What was your question? MY intrepretation? You are assuming the first group didn't receive the Holy Spirit when they heard the Gospel. I guess they also had to wait for Paul or Peter or John to do that part. Well, what will become of us today, Peter Paul and John aren't here to lay hands on us...Oh dear!!! :-o

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

What do you think about that????

JulianSims:

LOVE thinks NO EVIL as you have of me in your false accusations of my being a smart *whatever*. Comments like that are filtered through your OWN mind and reveal YOUR unloving attitude all ready formulated back on another blog.

I asked you with what I posted, "What do you think about that"?

If I were being smatrt I would say...SO THERE!

(Most)All of you seem to be completely missing the point being made here.....

And the ones who are the most critical have NO scripture to back up what they are saying...only comments based on your own perception of what you think I am saying.

Your're NOT reading any scripture I am putting down so why bother answering you at all.

And Dorcas, Your LECTURE has nothing to do with anything being said here. Your comments do not address ANY scripture whatsoever....

AND you are presuming to assume that you know EXACTLY what I am talking about, or who I am or what motivates me.Please don't, by your own comments....re-arranging my thoughts and telling me and others what I did and didn't say to begin with.

Why do you always assume there is a huge argument oiut of control going on when people disagree on a subject. Just that histeria alone is falsely accusing.

What your really saying is, Be quiet, if you don't agree with others. Read SI's standing on the subject....agree or get off!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Have You Received
the First Blessing?
The Holy Spirit does a work within the believer whereby He sanctifies us. This is an experience within the Christian.

The apostle Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, “ . . . you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).

The context tells us all the sins of these saints that were covered by the blood of Jesus. God chose the believer unto “salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13; cf. 4:7; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 15:16). Paul has in mind the ultimate goal, our final salvation.

God chose us in the deep counsels of eternity on the basis of His grace and love, and not because of any personal merit on our part. It is all of grace and love. The means God uses to bring us to salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit who sets aside chosen individuals to live holy lives. The Holy Spirit regenerates, indwells, baptizes the believer into the body of Christ, etc. The individual believes in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ because the Holy Spirit has done His work in our hearts. Then throughout the life of the believer the Holy Spirit applies the Word of God to progressively purify the Christian’s life.

Sanctification by the Holy Spirit is the first blessing of God’s work in the heart of the believer. This first blessing leads to the full knowledge of justification by faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

No one can be saved without this first work of the Holy Spirit in the heart. The sanctification by the Spirit in the heart brings the believer unto obedience to the sacrifice of Christ. We come to knowledge of our justification when the Holy Spirit brings us to faith in the death of Christ for our sins. His precious blood cleanses the soul of every sinful stain. The blood of Jesus alone makes you acceptable before God. The Holy Spirit brings you to faith in Jesus Christ.

We have been chosen by the Father, purchased by the Son and set apart by the Holy Spirit.

The apostle Paul in the opening chapter of Ephesians lays great stress on what God in grace had done for us. The Trinity is involved in our salvation. God the Father chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world. The Son of God saved when He died for me on the cross. The effectual calling of the Holy Spirit saved me one Sunday morning when my mother and my pastor shared the Gospel and I was born again. It took all three Persons of the Godhead to bring me to salvation. If we separate these ministries, we will either deny divine sovereignty or human responsibility; and that would lead to heresy.

I often hear people say, “But I don’t feel justified.” Our justification has nothing to do with our feelings. The critical question is, “Do you believe God is satisfied with the work of atonement Jesus Christ accomplished as your substitute upon the cross?” If you believe Jesus is your substitute who died for you on the cross, then God has declared you are justified.

Don’t play the doctrine of sanctification against the doctrine of justification as if one is more important than the other. Both doctrines are vital to our full salvation.

Sanctification is not justification. Justification is not something the Holy Spirit does in your heart. Justification is the declaration by the heavenly Judge acquitting you of your guilt. God justifies the believing sinner, based upon the atonement of Christ on your behalf. God acquits you because you have taken Him at His word regarding the death of Jesus Christ. Justification is based upon what Christ did for you on the cross. It is your standing before a righteous and holy God.

Sanctification is not a “second blessing”; it is your first blessing. It is what the Holy Spirit does at the beginning in your soul and continues throughout your life until He presents you complete in your glorified sinless body in the presence of God at the coming of Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:23-24; Phil. 1:6). He will have completed His work in you on that glorious day, and not before then (cf. 1 Thess. 5:2, 4; 2 Thess. 1:10; 2:2; 1 Cor. 1:18; 3:13; 2 Cor. 1:14; Rom. 13:12).

Every born again person has received the Holy Spirit and has been set apart to God. Because of His indwelling presence we long for the time when the Spirit will have reached His goal in our lives and we shall become absolutely and forever sinless and holy. When we see Jesus Christ in glory we will be forever wholly sanctified.

As we walk in the Spirit we live holy lives, and we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh (Gal. 5:16, 17; Eph. 5:18). The only way to live the Christian life is occupation with Christ. All He asks of us is to yield ourselves to Him. As we make ourselves available to Him He lives His life in and through us.

You don’t need a second blessing; you need to appropriate by faith the first blessing of the Holy Spirit. You only need to walk in the Spirit. The Christian life is not a sudden growth of spirituality, acquired through a special blessing, but a steady, sincere, patient walk in the Spirit, in uninterrupted growth in grace and knowledge of Christ.

Selah!
Message by Wil Pounds (c) 2006

Dear Katy,

I'm sorry. I was wrong. I hope I can do better in future, although I realise we may continue to find we have differing views at times.

I think I should not have directed my thoughts to you alone, (I say this not because you were upset, but because I see it placed an undue pressure on you.) but rather to all the thread's participants, and probably with clearer disclaimers than I included.

I realise now, we don't know each other as well as I thought, for I often post generalities, deliberately to throw other points into sharper relief; but I'm not into drawing out texts like swords, as we should not be fighting [i]each other[/i] with them. :-(

2 Timothy 3:16, 17
[b]All[/b] Scripture [i]is[/i] given by inspiration of God, and [i]is[/i] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This is relevant though, and I'd be happy for you to use some scripture in your next post to me, if there was some on your mind?

As you said elsewhere, it's never about the other person. I honestly do take this to heart and will be meditating upon it further.

Having said that Katy, I'd like to comment on the article you posted by Will Pounds, that I think it would need its own thread to be discussed properly, particularly the order in which he puts sanctification.

I guess you didn't notice the strictly-[u]not[/u]-New-Testament-early-mention of [b]Jesus'[/b] blood [u]covering[/u] our sins? Anyone who likes terms absolutely and accurately defined - which the Bible does, wherever it is necessary - should be scratching their head at this carry-over from the previous (Old Covenant) era, which has no relevance in the New Covenant - although he later does allude to [i]cleansing[/i], (which is more correct).

Please remember I am basing my comments on my observation of the article only. I do not assume you agree with him on [i]that[/i] point. Is that clear? I do not expect you to take responsibility for the points he makes with which I may disagree. Those are his responsibility.

Dear Dorcas, My apologies to you as well. :-)

This is and will always be a heated debate among the Saints.

In re-reading your post, as I did several times, it came to mind about the terminology "Second Blessing". You are saying we receive many blessings, and YES we do. We are Blessed In Christ as we speak with unspeakable blessings.

Called the "Riches that are in Christ Jesus". Those riches INCLUDE every Blessing, including our Spiritual Gifts to use for His Glory. I can't imagine Jesus giving us a New Car and no car keys to drive. Just an analogy ONLY.

In discussing this concept about *THE* Second Blessing re: The Holy Spirit, and some stating that we don't have the Holy Spirit at conversion, I was moved to go back to the New Covenant Promises given to Israel about the Promise of the Spirit. Ephesians states that Gentiles are partakers of the Covenants of Promise given to Israel. The Promise is the Holy Spirit. There are many scripture that say...the Promise of the Spirit...one in Galatians.....cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree...that the blessings of Abraham would come to the Gentiles that they would receive the Promise of the Spirit.

In explaining this, JulianSans pulls out one sentence (out of context) from the WHOLE context and presumes to announce I was teaching false doctrine. He didn't ask...what do you mean, or explain further or present scripture to refute. I call this kind of debating rude and asking for contention.

So, I will explain even further what I was saying....

Going back to Hebrews 11, it clearly states OT Saints died without the PROMISE. Not the promise of Salvation, but the promise of the Holy Spirit....also stating that they WITHOUT US could not be made perfect. Certainly didn't mean perfect in speaking in tongues, but PERFECT in Christ. The Holy Spirit came to INDWELL ONLY AFTER CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

These OT Saints, who were in Paradise or Abraham's bosom( saved by faith in the Cross...they looked forward to from Abel on, were also raised up together with Christ and now we see in Hebrews 12 these are the Spirits of JUST men MADE PERFECT.

We are Perfect and Complete in Christ. We have been Blessed with *ALL* Blessings in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.

The Word of God is Complete, and Jesus said My Words are Spirit and they are LIFE.

I've taken no complete sides here...only caution with balanced scripture, and also asking those to look at the verses they were presenting more closely in what it said EXACTLT?

1. Did anyone lay hands on Cornelius?

2. Was there something called a "Second Blessing" also present at the time Cornelius received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit *AKA* The Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The answer is NO.

When bringing out these facts, those who refuse to really look at those verses closely, will instead...insult! That's not conversation or debate, that's what Bill O'Riley calles "Culture Warriors", and that is taking place in the Church today.

Well, sorry that was so long.

I am so sorry you got cought in the middle. And so sorry I took out more frustration on you then I should have. I posted another article (because it seems my words, although the same) may not communicate the Truth that I was trying to get across, as well as he did.

I will leave this as scripture....1 Corinthians 13.

More than tongues....LOVE, HOPE, AND FAITH, Paul says is far superior. I do believe that is true...as I know it is true.

With Love in Christ
Katy-Did :-)

It shouldn't be heated I am enjoying every minute of this thread.

Now Katy, you didn't even answer my question, but thats ok.

You will not find any verse in scripture that says "The Baptism [of] the Holy Spirit".

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall [b]baptize you [with] the Holy Ghost[/b], and with fire:

Complimants, I too have enjoyed our conversations, and can appreciate a good debate, Grace under fire!!!

I guess teh problem many have with me including the moderators is that I LOVE the WORD of God. I don't play around with it. I believe in the Pam Powder (I think that is how you spell her name) Spiritual diet...if it didn't grow that way don't eat it.

Yes absolutesy Jesus Baptizes us with the Baptism of Fire. That FIRE is the sanctifying work that burns away the chaff. The chaff is the outer fleshly old nature. 1st Peter 4 gives a very clear understanding about the *firey* trials and fellowship of His sufferings, that do just that.

The concept is that of a seed. In the forest, when there are great fires, this is actually when NEW LIFE takes place. It takes the FIRE to actually open the seed or the outer chaff, and bring forth New Life. Peter says teh fellowship of His sufferings is the acid that burns away our attachment to this world and worldlieness so we can live our life to teh will of God.

Some believe in following their INNER LIGHT, without God's Word to sanctify our minds and give us the mind of Christ. What a dangerous concept. This INNER LIGHT seems to want NEW revelations and thinks very little of the tried and true complete nothing new need be added scriptures.

That can only get us into trouble....not to mention another fire that will burn the wood hay and stubble of that Nonsense.

Paul already laid the foundation, and we build upon it... He said Be very careful how you build.

God's word is our perfect instruction manual to build our life IN Him.

I need some sleep!!

God Bless!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Good morning Katy,

I would use different language and give different reasons to explain why I also trust scripture, but I definitely trust the Spirit within me to recognise the word of God (to my spirit, soul, heart and mind) and bring me 'new' light! How can that be wrong?

Simply reading scripture can be done by anyone, without it effecting any change to their spiritual condition, if it's done without faith.

Also, testimony is a key aspect to how the gospel spreads; personal experience of inner changes promised by preachers leads to more preaching, testifying and faith!

The revelations of God which each of us receive through His written word, are all very necessary also, and most useful for the nurturing of the body of Christ. I am not trying, here, to set up any dissonance but rather resonance. But, of all your paragraphs, how can you say this?

Some believe in following their INNER LIGHT, without God's Word to sanctify our minds and give us the mind of Christ. What a dangerous concept. [b]This INNER LIGHT seems to want NEW revelations and thinks very little of the tried and true complete nothing new need be added scriptures[/b].

That can only get us into trouble....not to mention another fire that will burn the wood hay and stubble of that Nonsense.

You mention 'the wood hay and stubble' - but this is a possible description of the way the fire of judgement will find some believers' [i]work[/i], [u]at the end[/u] - that is the [i]other end[/i] from that at which the Holy Spirit falls for the first time, to begin to purify the outward expressions of a his or her inner life. (The glory of the gospel is that the judgement due to the world's sin has already fallen on Jesus. Believers escape both it and the wrath to come.)

'complete nothing new need be added scriptures'

But Jesus said:

John 14:16, 17
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [i]even[/i] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be [u]in[/u] you.

vv 25, 26
These things have I spoken unto you, being [i]yet[/i] present with you. But the Comforter, [i]which is[/i] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will [u]guide you into[/u] all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [i]that[/i]] shall he speak: [u]and[/u] he will shew you things to come.

In the light of these prophecies from Jesus Himself, can you reject their meaning outright, setting it in frank opposition to scripture?

Quite apart from Pentecost itself, Peter's sermon on that day should instruct all of us to accept the manifestation of the Holy Spirit's effect on lives, whether in visions or prophecies, or other gifts as described by Paul.

contd.

contd.

Moving on to the Holy Spirit as light: there was a group of believers in seventeenth century England, the Latitudinarians, who used this verse

Psalms 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness. {candle: or, lamp}

to justify their subtle rebellion against being told what to do by first one State religion and then another (Catholic or Protestant).

I think one may have some sympathy which what they were getting at, because even Paul mentions 'conscience' (Rom 2:15) as if this is an innate faculty for judging one's own state of rightness with the undefined authority of God. But, even in those days, the work of the Holy Spirit was widely recognised, and one cannot but conclude this is not what Latitudinarians taught.

Fyi, a while ago there was a thread about conscience in the Scripture and Doctrine forum which explored conscience in scripture.

Your statement about 'INNER LIGHT' offers nothing conciliatory towards Jesus' claim and John's testimony that He is the Light of the world, who makes His dwelling with a believer through the Spirit, with the Father (John 17).

John 9:5
"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world...

So now, how do you reconcile all these verses with a post in which you also claim to bow your mind to the [u]whole[/u] counsel of scripture?

Honestly, I'm not trying to be clever. Some people here on SI know their Bible's far better than I, and much of what you state is exactly what I also believe, but, for the sake of those reading, (at times) in over two hundred countries around the world, it behoves all of us to try to read what we've written as if we were an examiner, looking for clarity of expression and [u]facts[/u], in the answers given by a candidate, and sometimes, as if we had never heard them before. There is no hurry on my side, for you to reply today.

In my next post, I want to share what I understand about sanctification, especially since you have used alluded to our being sanctified by the word, which (doctrine) I believe can be based only upon Jesus own statement in John 15:3.

"Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

To make sense, this cannot mean [i]only[/i] the written word. (?)

Ephesians 5
1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence

why are people being mean spirited to each other on this thread?

If discussions cannot be handled accurately then the thread will be locked and if members who are given admonishments continue to deflame anyone's character or argue with a divisive spirit then after a firm warning that account will be removed.

I encourage everyone to read these:

[b]MUST READ: SermonIndex Forum Disclaimer / Community Rules[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14144&forum=13&4

[b]Some notations regarding "This Forum"[/b]
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Dorcus, here is my answer to your previous question about the Inner Light. I hope that will answer it for you.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Striking parallels exist between Quaker silent worship and the practice glossolalia [modern Pentecostalism]. At its best Quaker silent worship involves a kind of letting go, a lack of strain or effortful attention, a willingness to "flow" with the leading of the Spirit and with the larger movement of the entire meeting. ... As in the case of glossolalia, the process of speaking out of the silence and of listening in the silence involves a resting of the analytical mind, a refusal to let deliberative, objective thinking dominate the meeting. Rather, one tries to "center down" and become open to the ''inner light" within himself, to "that of God in every man,'' to the "leading of the Spirit.'' (Perspectives on the New Pentecostalism, Spitter, Richard A. Baer, 1976, p 154)
This kind of letting go of self be let the spirit flow, is present in many occult world religions like Subud. The Quaker religion is historically occult like the Shakers.

PS: added, this came from a web site He Reigns posted on the Matthew 24 Blog concerning mystics.

Hi Sis Katy, I would like to ask you - I love Apologetics and what some call Discernment Ministries and discussions of "those days" and most especially [b]Christology[/b] - but my dear sister and friend - I was Baptised with The Holy Spirit three years after I was saved and pray in tongues - so, am I still your friend? ;-)
I do believe that 1Corth. chpt.s 12-14 are relevent for today - but I pray we can except one another over this particular issue - as I posted in a reply to someone else, back on the "Matthew 24 Watch" thread - I wouldn't care in the least if this whole forum 'was' "Baptist". :-D
Peace Sister. With all due respect & Love in Christ.

Greg Said:

If discussions cannot be handled accurately then the thread will be locked and if members who are given admonishments continue to defame anyone's character or argue with a divisive spirit then after a firm warning that account will be removed.

I know that we all can be quite zealous in the things that we hold dear. However, let us consider Greg's admonition carefully. If what we know is to be the TRUTH, then why are we showing signs of the flesh? That alone is a good indicator to see if we are in the truth. Because he that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now 1John2:9. If we are throwing rocks at one another, how is that showing the love of Christ?

James 1:20 For the anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

What a good God we have.

but my dear sister and friend - I was Baptised with The Holy Spirit three years after I was saved and pray in tongues - so, am I still your friend?

Absolutely He-Reigns. Did I ever once here say I didn't believe? Not even ONCE did I say this.

Would it be fair here, and would you still be my friend if my comment was originally to a comment someone made that one MUST have the evidence of tongues at least once, if not again, to prove they have received the Holy Spirit?

You see, I too have received the Baptism of Fire Jesus Baptizes with, and never once spoke in an unknown tongue, or prayed in an unknown tongue.

I also received the spirit of the Life of Christ that set me free from the Law of Sin and death the day I was Born Again. But no, never tongues. Oh I have a spiritual Gift, but not tongues.

These forums at times remind me of a game we played when children. You know, the one where you get in a circle, and wisper something in the persons ear next to you, and they have to repeat the EXACT thing to the next, and next and next. By the time the last person is to say out loud what the original sentence was, it was COMPLETELY distorted from the original first sentence.

Maybe we still play that game and don't realize.

Love in Christ
Katy_did

Katy said

here is my answer to your previous question about the Inner Light. I hope that will answer it for you.

Well, it doesn't in any way address the things Jesus said, as reported by His disciples. That's a bit of a disappointment for me.

Instead, you picked an extract from a writer who doesn't understand what it is Jesus had prophesied in those verses - to be born again by the Spirit.

I note also, this was written when many thirsty members of denominational churches and new converts had been seeking and finding a deep(er) walk with God in the Holy Spirit. He was pouring out, upon and into many, some of whom had heard of the Holy Spirit mainly in the closing benediction at church, until then.

Groping for a way to express what he was being [i]told about[/i] Mr Baer didn't produce a fair exposition of the [u]biblical[/u] experience of baptism in the Spirit: 'Rather, one tries to "center down" and become open to the ''inner light" within himself, to "that of God in every man,'' to the "leading of the Spirit.'' (Perspectives on the New Pentecostalism, Spitter, Richard A. Baer, 1976, p 154)'

His description better fits transentendal meditation, which was (also) in fashion, because of pop stars' interest in it, (than to what it is to be born again and waiting in God's presence), except that he capitalises 'spirit', which changes that meaning a little, and, to what 'Spirit' with a capital 's' is he referring? I think that's what you mean. Yes?

Do you know that Oswald Chambers said 'If the Spirit doesn't move me, I move the Spirit'. I know exactly what he means, but, it isn't an accurate way to express it. All he's really saying is that God hears him when he cries. That's not unscriptural. Just as 'God within' is not unscriptural to those who have been [u]born[/u] of Him.

Even, that we are made in God's image implies there is something of God in every man. But, it is [i]not[/i] from that [u]fallen[/u] image of God that the movings of His Spirit emanate, but from the Spirit Himself, stirring the human spirit to provoke an expression of Him through our flesh. (Again) this [u]is[/u] Christlike and nothing to be ashamed of, or by.

I hope you might think about the verses I posted and answer more succintly the next time, if possible?

Katy I missed your post to HE_Reigns, where you said:

You see, I too have received the Baptism of Fire Jesus Baptizes with, and never once spoke in an unknown tongue, or prayed in an unknown tongue.

So, what's the problem? Do you think you're the only person who's aware there are other spirits imitating the gift of tongues in churches? You may not mean to, but by offering such an unrelenting stream of nagativity towards the gift, you're giving the impression you don't believe the real Holy Ghost gift of tongues exists today - as if God has changed?

There can be no good reason for giving an impression that the [i]biblical[/i] gift of tongues is suspect. It is not.

What disobedient and men [i]misled[/i] have done, calling them the gifts of the Spirit, is the problem. Meanwhile, [u]we[/u] can all support the whole word of God, and trust His judgement about which gifts He gives to whom.

I believe some people need tongues, but others [i]need[/i] another gift, both cases in order for the body to function as effectively as possible on earth, as the generations roll through.

Please, let's try to believe in one another in love, and trust His distribution of graces to His people. Let's show it like it's supposed to be. :-D

Dorcas, I believe you are presenting again a presupposition of something I never said. With that I really can't give an answer to your reply, except like this:

However having many many friends who DO speak in tongues, have with out a doubt substituted the Born Again Experience of being Baptized into the Body of Christ for their tongues experience as the evidence, having NO understanding of the Cross or the Power of the Cross and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. When bringing many of these scriptures here to this thread, no one here as well seemed to expound as if they knew the are two different things.

All I know, including Compliments statement also practice being "Slain in the Spirit". This is not in scripture....yet many swear by it. Where is caution here? Obviously not warnings in scripture, for who really reads the Word and obeys it? We're now living by feelings, not by faith....by earthly blessings, but not spiritual blessings.

Yes, and MANY I know who do practice these things also live lives unaware of the power of the Cross and our risen life In Christ that breaks the power of sin, our attachment to this world and worldliness. If you are to look at the teachings of many NEW Pentecostals you will also find many also affiliated with WOF...who are still in this world, and of this world...the prosperity Gospel Gang. Somehow, they seemed to have meshed.

This IS no secret to many concerned Christians who being of the Old School know how rampant this ungodly teaching is and how it has overtaken many wonderful churches.

I presented the other position of these concerns from other Godly ministers. To have one subject DIVIDE the Church as this subject has needs to be looked at from ALL perspectives.

We are, Dorcas, living in the time of the falling away of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and His atonement for our sin. Many deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and many take the side of those who also deny the Deity of Jesus Christ.

If my words don't apply to you, then you should be in agreement, rather then argument, and you all should be concerned about the souls of men and women.

We know anti-christ is coming with **LYING signs and wonders** we're seeing even today...and you say we should not be concerned????? What part of the Church do you suppose this is coming through?

Paul and the Apostles warned the Church even 2000 years ago that anti-christs were all ready infiltrating the Church, and you think today is not worse? The Bible clearly teaches that it is going to get worse and worse.

We have 7 letters written to the Church in Revelation about false teachers and false prophets, IN THE CHURCH. They weren't talking about in the world. This is where the great deception is...not in the world, but in the Church.

Read the letters again with that in mind, and you will see the words of Jesus to the CHURCHES who let false teacher in.

Not everything supernatural is spiritual.

If God has not placed this on your heart, then he has placed something else on your...but this He has placed on mine, for reasons you may not understand. Each in the Body has a Gift and a calling out for our mission and responsibility.

To question one's Gift, because it is not yours, or you don't understand it, is in disobedience.

I don't seek the approval of man, but of God.

Are you more concerned with *my Gift* and have neglected your own? You all seem to put so much emphasis on the Gift of Tongues. What about the OTHER GIFTS...that YOU NOW want to question as not biblical. Is there some hypocrisy going on here?

My first comment here was about my Brother in law who was hurt by a terrible teaching that if he didn't speak in tongues he was not saved. So yes, it hits close to home as well. Did anyone reply back and say, I am so sorry...not one person!

What did that say to me or anyone else tuning in with the same issue.

I do believe Paul West and Reformer took many of the same positions I have. Why aren't you questioning them?

Love in Christ
Katy-Did :-)

SearchMe Said:

God always moves beyond denominational walls and its just that many Baptists aren't as hyper as Pentecostals and the charismatic church

Thanks for sharing that praise report about the Baptists, thats encouraging news.

Katy-did wrote:
You all seem to put so much emphasis on the Gift of Tongues. What about the OTHER GIFTS...that YOU NOW want to question as not biblical. Is there some hypocrisy going on here?

[i]Katy, I think the emphasis on this thread was on 'tongues' because that was "the topic" and the 'Title' of this thread.

Possibly, "the fruit of The Spirit" could be beneficially introduced into this discussion at this point[/i] -

[b]By R.A. Torrey -

An exceedingly important thought about the Holy Spirit's power is found in Galatians 5:22,23,

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

The Holy Spirit brings forth in the believer Christlike graces of character (Compare Romans 5:5; 14:17; 15:13). All real beauty of character, all real Christlikeness in us, is the Holy Spirit's work. It is His "fruit." He bears it; not we. Note that these graces are not said to be the fruits of the Spirit; they are the "fruit." There is a unity of origin running all through the multiplicity of manifestation; and not some of these graces, but all, will appear in everyone in whom the Holy Spirit is given full control.

It is a beautiful life that is set forth in these verses. Every word is worthy of earnest study and profound meditation: "Love," "joy," "peace," "longsuffering," "gentleness," "goodness," "faith," "meekness," "self-control." Is not this the life we all long for, the Christ life? Is it not natural to us, and it is not attainable by an effort of the "flesh," or nature. The life that is natural for us is set forth in the three preceding verses (19-21). But when the indwelling Spirit is given full control in the one He inhabits; when we are brought to realize the utter badness of the flesh, and give up in helpless despair of ever attaining to anything really good in its power; when, in other words, we come to the end of self, and just give over the whole work of making us what we ought to be to the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT, then, and only then, these holy graces of character are His "fruit."

Do you wish these graces in your character and life? Renounce self utterly, and all it's strivings after holiness; and let the Holy Spirit, who dwells in you, take full control and bear His own glorious fruit. We get the same essential truth from another point of view in Galatians 2:20 (R.V., Am. App.), " I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself up for me."

Settle it clearly and forever that the flesh can never bear this fruit, that you can never attain these things by your own effort, that they are "the fruit of the Spirit." We hear a good deal in these days about "ethical culture," which usually means a cultivation of the flesh until it bears the fruit of the Spirit. It cannot be done, until thorns can be made to beat figs, and a bramblebush, grapes (Matt. 12:33, Luke 6:44). We hear also a good deal about "character building." That is all very well, if you let the Holy Spirit do the building, and then it is not so much building as fruit-bearing. (See, however, II Pet. 1:5-7.) We hear also about "cultivating graces of character," but we must always bear in mind that the way to cultivate true graces of character is by submitting ourselves utterly to the Spirit to do His work. This is "sanctification of the Spirit" (I Pet. 1:2; II Thess. 2:13).[/b]

Katy, I think the emphasis on this thread was on 'tongues' because that was "the topic" and the 'Title' of this thread.

Possibly, "the fruit of The Spirit" could be beneficially introduced into this discussion at this point -

He-Reigns, I couldn't agree with you more.

If you do someday go back and read from the beginning, the emphasis has always been on tongues.

It was my reply to Dorcas ONLY in answering her questions to ME that the subject of OTHER Gifts came up at all. In light of the discussion on tongues, it occured to me that all Gifts, regardless of tongues, should do one thing only...Glorify God and the Word of God which would be proclaiming truth whether it operates through one gift or another....it's all coming through the same Spirit, whether in unknown Tongues or the English language.

Keeping that in context, let's try to keep our conversations in the context of the spirit they were make.

The fire is/was out......no need blowing more air to try to re-kindle.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

HE_Reigns,

If you haven't discovered it already, I think you'd enjoy the richness and unity in Christ, of interpretation of scripture in the book to which MikeB drew our attention in his thread 'A most important work', [u]The doctrine of the Holy Spirit[/u], (an exposition from Romans) by GW North. The thread is in the Articles and Sermons forum. Your posting from Torrey reminded me that I'm part way through reading and need to get back and finish it.

If someone said that they were filled with the holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues or prophesied, and you know by the bible that those who did receive the holy Spirit spoke in tongues and prophesied should we believe him?

Yes or No?

Compliments, Here is the answer to your question, or rather what is your answer to the following scripture. Do you see that(Saul) Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit? Do you see that he prophesied? Is preaching that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God preaching or prophesying?

The Testamony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy, and yes all that receive Jesus Christ will indeed testify He is the Son of God. That's what happens when one gets "saved", whether they speak in English, a foreigh language, or unknown tongues, the Same Holy Spirit working through the new Born Again Believer will testify in one fashion or another Jesus Christ Is the Son of God.

They preach the Deity of Jesus Christ.

SO My question back is, Do you believe Paul? No where does it say tongues or prophesying in Paul's conversion...but it does say preached ...Does that count?

Acts 9
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Compliments asked

If someone said that they were filled with the holy Spirit but did not speak in tongues or prophesied, and you know by the bible that those who did receive the holy Spirit spoke in tongues and prophesied should we believe him?

Yes or No?

If so, I can, for the first time [b]ever[/b] just about begin to understand why there is such a fuss made by some people (not saying you personally have made a fuss here... don't know if you did or are...) over speaking in tongues as a 'sign' of the inward baptism.

If I'm not making sense yet, please bear with me.

What I have been assuming is (and I think I'm not alone in this view) that a person who has received the Holy Spirit, has the witness in himself, as John puts it (1:5:10) and also, accepts John's other observations here,

1 John 2:20
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him

knows that all these play a part in discerning what is going on - anytime... not just over speaking in tongues and prophecy.

These are not about an individualistic isolationist membership of one, but attibutes of those born from above, who are thus enabled by the Holy Spirit to recognise one another in the same way as they also recognise the voice of the Shepherd. Thus, if a person is [i]not[/i] speaking in tongues, their prophecy may be plainly of God by its content as much as its 'voice'. And, the same may be said of one who [i]is[/i] speaking in tongues, that the Holy Spirit bears witness to them or not.

If you've never thought of it this way (or even if you have) please explain why this is not enough agreement amongst brethren, to suffice?

Hi Linn, No I am talking about the initial evidence, the moment the holy Spirit comes in to you. I am not talking about afterwards. I am not saying that you need to convince people that you got the holy Spirit by giving a demonstration of speaking in tongues, not at all. I am simply conveying what the examples given in the book of Acts that those who had received the holy Spirit spoke in tongues or prophesied at that moment.

There is a false teaching circulating in Christendom that when you receive Christ into your heart, you have the holy Spirit. According to the Samaritan account the holy Spirit didn't show up until Peter and John came down to lay hands on them so that they might receive the holy Spirit. They only believed the gospel and were baptized in water. You would think that would be ok, but in the early Church it was not so. Even Paul wanted to know from the disciples from Ephesus if they had received the holy Spirit since [after]they believed. [emphasis mine].

I am not sure what the name of this false teaching is, I have heard someone call it, "Holy Spirit within, Holy Spirit without" doctrine.

Compliments said

I have heard someone call it, "Holy Spirit within, Holy Spirit without" doctrine.

Right. So you are saying that
[color=000099]whatever it was that Paul was calling 'receiving the Holy Spirit', amounts to a pentecostal experience which leads to speaking in tongues as initial evidence of this baptism. [/color]

Please concur with or adjust that statement in blue if it's not exactly what you meant. Thanks. :-)

Now, with regard to your statement which I quoted, I have questions, centred around the pictures we have in the Old Testament (under the Old Covenant) which are fulfilled spiritually under the new.

In the verses I quoted from John, 'unction' and 'anointing' have an oily association historically in scripture, which is an externalised picture of the Holy Spirit. So my main question is whether you have [i]ever[/i] lain back and contemplated how the instructions God gave in the Old Covenant might be re-interpreted by the New, so as to give us meaningful explanations of all those pictures.

Even that God withdrew His authority from king Saul when he was disobedient, tells us things, yet David continued to respect Saul's formal status. The years of Jesus' ministry also offer much food for thought, as He had dedicated followers who had abandoned everything, before there was a cross for them to take up or a Holy Spirit to receive.... See what I mean?

A short section in the [u]book by GW North[/u] MikeB posted, (Articles and Sermons: A most important work - [u]The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit in Romans[/u]) is relevant for this discussion also.

I don't have the ability to copy and paste across to here, the section which begins on p8 called '[b]Grace and Apostleship from the Risen Christ[/b]', so [i]please[/i] read it and consider the possibility of some parallels with the 'believers' in Samaria and Ephesus?

Now to be honest, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I'm uncomfortable with the bondage which insisting on tongues can bring people into. You hear of men who have fasted for months, or nearly committed suicide because they couldn't conform to this experience. :-?

It is God who baptises... by His will we were born-again.

I recommend you read from the beginning of the book to pick up the introduction which leads to that section. If this means you can't reply till next week, it will be worth the wait, because I believe you may need a little time to chew on new thoughts. Looking forward to an interesting further discussion though... 8-)

Hold on a tick, please! Are you really telling me that you go only by the outward sign of the other person speaking in tongues for all your evidence of their baptism in the Spirit, but don't expect the Spirit to witness directly to your spirit at the same time?

What I have been assuming is (and I think I'm not alone in this view) that a person who has received the Holy Spirit, has the witness in himself, as John puts it (1:5:10) and also, accepts John's other observations here,

AMEN Dorcus!!!!!!!

You just made my day, and thank you for that wonderful insight in 1st John.

Actually the Book of 1st John is so totally awesome concerning those IN Christ.

I also love the verse.

The Water, Blood and Spirit are ONE.

The Water is the Word, we are washed by the Water of the Word," Sanctify them in the Truth THY WORD is Truth, and we are Cleansed from our sin by the Blood of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit bears witness to both the WORD and the Blood.

1 John 2:27

THIS is the witness But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him
we have:

AMEN Again, and Again!!!

We Abide IN Christ and His Word, Jesus said in John 6, "Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life". Those who do are those who abide in Christ.

Thank you Dorcas for bringing out some very important Truths concerning our anointing, also testifying we are sealed in the Holy Spirit until the Day of Redemption.. This IS our Baptism into Christ, into His Body.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

I will consider reading GW North's exposition on the Holy Spirit but first I would like to know if he is trying to explain away the speaking in tongues or is he one that has not received the holy Spirit. I find reading from writers who are writing about a subject they had not experienced is like reading the local newspaper, a lot of knowledge but no spiritual essence.

Tell me that I am wrong. :-(

Linn, can you give me the link, I have searched page after page for MikeB's article and can't find it. :cry:

Do you see that(Saul) Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit? Do you see that he prophesied? Is preaching that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God preaching or prophesying?

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Do you see that(Saul) Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit? Do you see that he prophesied? Is preaching that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God preaching or prophesying?

Compliments, you have insisted that at the moment one receives the Holy Spirit they MUST either give evidence by speaking in tongues or prophesy.

I gave you documented evidence of Paul's initial receiving the Holy Spirit that does not say he did either.

You are changing the subject to another issue.

Are you referring to the initial receiving of the Holy Spirit or not?????

If we can stick to your initial comment then we can work from there to something else.

If Paul is saying Tongues are one of the Gifts, and not all have the gift of tongues, then why do you question the authority of Scripture.

Paul received the Holy Spirit and IMMEDIATELY confessed Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

He didn't immediately confess that all who receive the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues as you seem to be saying.

It is this kind of teaching that has divided teh Church and Christians, and has HURT many baby Christians.

Our Moderator says we are to walk in Love, yet this teaching is not the Spirit of LOVE, but division and contention.

Please except that FACT from the Authority of Scripture, and not men trying to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Their works have yet to be tried at the Judgement seat of Christ.

The ONLY dogmatic Doctrine anyone should have in Christianity is that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, DIED and rose again, for the Forgivness of Sin, and opened the way into the Holy of Holies that WE may have a personal and intimate relationship with GOD, our Father...Abba Father.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did:-)

You are changing the subject to another issue.

I am going to take a cue from Brother PaulWest in saying my dialogue with you has ended for this thread. We circled the globe so to speak and have come back the same as we went, nothing has changed.

God Bless you Sister Katy :-)

Hi Katy,

Thank you for the affirmative response. :-)

Now I would like to say something again, (to all), which I think I mentioned in my first post in this thread.... Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones, (who if you've never heard or read any of his work is featured on this site), suggests that some people who receive the baptism in the Spirit speak in tongues only at that event, but never again.

I think he might also accept (though I'm not sure) that some people receive the Spirit but never speak in tongues. However, my point is more that he suggests also that the gift of tongues, such as we might hear bringing prophecy, which also requires an interpretation, is [u]the gift of tongues[/u], while the first example is more what Compliments is after - an utterance in a tongue - and, this is different. I believe Dr Jones would not have made such a suggestion, without some basis in experience, so I wanted to bring it to everyone's attention again for our consideration.

Katy, when you say

If Paul is saying Tongues are one of the Gifts, and not all have the gift of tongues, then [b]why do you question the authority of Scripture[/b]...

He didn't immediately confess that all who receive the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues as you seem to be saying.

You also said

Paul received the Holy Spirit and IMMEDIATELY confessed Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

God wanted his full attention, so He could say some very special and sobering things to the man, who, if he'd been behaving like that in our society today, we would say 'he's out of control'. How tenderly must Paul have loved the church after that, (on account of how he had 'wasted' it), after God had finished speaking to him and giving his sight back.

Perhaps, to Luke, Paul speaking in tongues wasn't the most important piece of news to report, in his record of those days! In the end, i thimk we have to manage with the scripture we have, and hold it all together as valid truth.

Btw, (Katy) did you see I'd answered you on "inner light" in the Quaker thread in Scripture and Doctrine? (I'm not pressing for an early reply.)

Compliments said

I will consider reading GW North's exposition on the Holy Spirit but first I would like to know if he is trying to explain away the speaking in tongues or is he one that has not received the holy Spirit. I find reading from writers who are writing about a subject they had not experienced is like reading the local newspaper, a lot of knowledge but no spiritual essence.

Tell me that I'm wrong :-?

Sorry you couldn't find it. Here's the link:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19654&forum=34&2]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19654&forum=34&2[/url]

Compliments wrote:

There is a false teaching circulating in Christendom that when you receive Christ into your heart, you have the holy Spirit. According to the Samaritan account the holy Spirit didn't show up until Peter and John came down to lay hands on them so that they might receive the holy Spirit.

Quote: by Paul West
________________________________________
This teaching that one must speak in tongues or he does not have the Holy Spirit was not taught by the early church, it is not mentioned anywhere in the NT, or implicitly taught by Paul or Peter. Church history bears this to be true.

Compliments wrote:

In every instance of everyone that received the holy Spirit in the book of Acts all spoke in tongues or prophesied. There could have been many more instances but the holy Spirit saw fit only to have these examples written down for our admonition.

Quote: From Paul West:
________________________________________
I base all my findings on the word of God.
________________________________________

Brother, I understand this, and I try to do the same. This doctrine of "tongues at baptism" is based completely on inference, just as certain doctrines concerning the rapture are. They are not taught implicitly. My belief that tongues are not the formula evidence for the Spirit baptism is threefold: 1. Early church history proves otherwise, and men of old who were obviously filled with the Holy Spirit; 2. Absence of implicit teaching in scripture and curious non-mention of tongues at the baptism of certain key individuals, like Paul in Acts 9:18 (it seems as though the Holy Spirit deliberately left out the mentioning of tongues if they did occur at Paul's filling); 3. Doing such puts the Holy Spirit's sovereignity in a frame of predictability to cater to man's outward lookings. This clashes with everything else we know to be in line with the nature of God.

End of Quote from Paul West!!

Well, it seems as though Paul West was as confused as I am about your argument.
Now tell me why, with these EXACT statements as I made , I’m the bad guy here and Paul West is telling you to stop having conversations with me on the subject when he has given you the exact same reference point.

I won’t go back and bother you all with this hypocrisy in this conversation, but just say:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling!!!!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Katy-did, hi and God bless,I dont think you apply what you say.You say a teaching "tongues" causes division?

Psalms 1, I will answer your question with dorcas's reply.

Teaching tongues does not cause division, it's what one teaches about tongues that has concerned many and caused division...mainly one has not received the Holy Spirit if they don't speak in tongues or prophesy at the moment of salvation. However I did state paul PREACHED IMMEDIATELY at the time he received the Holy Spirit, according to scripture.

The order of Paul's receiving the Holy Spirit is recorded in scripture.

I leave you all with this:

Quote by Dorcas:

Now to be honest, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I'm uncomfortable with the bondage which insisting on tongues can bring people into. You hear of men who have fasted for months, or nearly committed suicide because they couldn't conform to this experience.

It is God who baptises... by His will we were born-again.
End of Quote

I would add, according to Dorcas's comment, that the BONDAGE this brings to others on the subject at hand, that would bring one to suicide, hits very close to home with me more than you could possibly know. With the suicide rate sky-rocketing beyond our wildest imagination among professing Christians should be of great concern.

Jesus Christ gave His life so we might Live our Life in and through Him. God is not the author of suicide!!!!!!! He is the Author of SALVATION!!! By GRACE you have been saved through Faith, and by faith when we receive Jesus Christ for teh forgivness of sin, we are sealed in the Holy Spirit, Baptized into His Body!

This is the message we should be teaching.....not mans messages that bring thoughts of suicide. This is NOT the Great Gospel of THE GOOD NEWS!!!

And OH by the way, the GOSPEL INCLUDES our WHOLE life in Christ, ...not just your initial salvation experience!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Psalms 1, what a wonderful testimony!!

Added/ Edited

Psalms 1 said:

Do you think those people in mexico care if you are 100% doctrinally correct?

Their souls are more important then their stomach's I believe....yes, Correct Doctrine IS important, as we see many cults also going to feed the poor to gain followers. Refer to John 6 for more instruction on this subject.

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Jesus said, Abide in me, and I in you, as you can do nothing without me.

It is impossible to do the work of the Ministry with out the Gifts operating through the power of the Holy Spirit. ALL the Gifts working together to bring balance to the Body of Christ are so important. We are to accept one another’s Gift, and despise no ones Gift what ever that Gift may be.

I've spent some time in Mexico and know what you mean. Families living on the sidewalk with nothing but the mercy of those who will feed them and their children....humbly accepting.

Once I was on a business trip to Acapulco and we stayed at the Royal Princess, advised to go to the beach area at your own risk, because of all the families BEGGING you to buy the jewelry they sell to make a living.

We did go, and yes they do beg you to buy. But along the beach was a few huts built where some had shops to work out of. It was on Mothers Day. That is a National Holiday in Mexico where all the children are off from school. This adorable little boy took me by the hand and said, come in our store...so I went.

He then asked, "Do you have something I can give my Mother for Mothers Day"? I don't have a present for her. So we sat down on the step going into his parents tiny shop...the size of a pantry closet, and I emptied out my purse to see what I could find. His father was standing by watching. With me I had brought a Book, "Seeing Christ in the Tabernacle". ...the Father couldn't speak English but about a couple words, spotted the Book, and his eyes lit up like I can't even Describe, and all he could say in a questioning way was Jesus? Jesus? Pointing to the Book. I said Yes, Jesus, do you want this Book, and he said yes. The Little boy jumps up and says, Oh this will be the present for Mom for Mothers Day, and he was so excited jumping up and down.

I will never forget that experience, because I didn't plan it...it had been planned before hand.

Psalms 1, thank you for putting here our real mission and purpose here on earth. To be the Lords Hands and feet.

With Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Thank you David for that sobering message. When it comes down to what your saying about poverty in Mexico or wherever, telling them about doctrine is like trying to hold water in your hands. People's needs need to be met in order for them to receive anything that you have say to them. I am grateful that some of you have gone to the foreign fields to witness their dire straits. Your able to see the extraordinary poverty that exists in these places. And I can only imagine that in your own hearts and minds as you stand there looking on, that you want to give so much of yourselves but you can't. The need is great but so few want to go there.

The issue of tongues is not a huge issue with me. I say it like it is, and that may come off as if I dwell on this subject day in and day out. I tell you the truth I do not. My interest is to KNOW HIM and the power of His resurrection. To be prepared for a greater work to reach the hungry and dying. To be willing vessels that Christ can express Himself thru us.

However, if someone asks me concerning the receiving of the Holy Spirit, I will refer to them the book of Acts and let them read it and then tell me how they see the receiving of the holy Spirit.

I say go and make your mistakes, we are always going to make mistakes.

I loved your message David, thanks for sharing it Brother.