A vital doctrine the church has failed to teach me...

By God's grace He has in recent days begun to truly and beautifully reveal to me the wonderful and foundational doctrine of 'Oneness with Christ' or Unity with Christ.

It is becoming so precious to me, but i had never really seen it before. Maybe i was just being really dumb and it was taught in a subtle way and i just didnt get it, but i dont think so, i really believe that in over 14 years of attending church i have never heard a sermon in all the churches i have been to on this subject. I am angry and dissapointed about that. Im beginning to wonder if there is any docrtine more important than this?!! Its at the heart of the gospel and i am beginning to see that scrupture is always referring to it.

Now many passages of scripture are beginning to make sense, like Col 2:12 "buried with Him in baptism by which you also were raised with Him through faith". Now i know that to be a Christian to 'believe in Jesus' is to be In Jesus (or to be one with Him), and to be in Him means that when He died i died, when He was buried i was buried in Him, when He rose i rose with Him, and now He is in heaven at God's right hand and In Him i am there too! He is my life! Because I am in Him God can treat me as He would treat Him, all His righteousness is counted as mine, His perfect life is mine, His death for sins is counted as mine- Oh how wonderful it is to be 'In Christ!'.

Now i know that all my interaction with God is only because I am in Christ, the only reason God can answer my prayers is because I am in Christ and when I pray in Christ's Name i am praying to the Father in Him- i.e. as though i am Him, therefore how could He turn my requests away!!!

I believe that this is one of the foundational truths to the very understanding of the gospel and i believe it will be the key to unlock Romans 6 to me. Know i can begin to understand how I have died to sin in Christ.

Because i am 'in Christ' or one with Him i can bodly cry to out God 'Treat me as you would treat Him' And He does! Through a lively faith in Christ i become joined to Him- one with Him and through His life, death and resurection and His suffering on my behalf i get the same treatment from God that he has always got- all because He (as my representative) got the treatment i should have got for my sins and rebellion (God's wrath upon the cross). That is the gospel!!! And oh what a gospel!!!!

Is it me or is this a forgotten doctrine? I really think it needs to be taught once again. I love it! I want to know it and then teach it to every poor Christian who hasnt grasped it! Have you grasped it?

Here4Him, I had a similar experience.It also helped me.
sometimes i wonder if the gospel has ever been preached.
Jesus said" unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you cannot be my disciple" and almost all the disciples left him.
Can you imagine what must of went through their minds?
Fast foreward to the modern man centered gospel and most bretheren see no need for more power from heaven.
The comission to raise the dead heal the sick or cast out demons doesnt even get a second thought.
Where is the great God of elija? A possible reply would be" WHERE ARE THE ELIJAS?"
i GUESS IF WE ALL LOOK IN THE MIRROR WE WOULD FIND A STARTING PLACE.
...David

Greetings

Father has been showing me this same thing as well. This was shared with me a few weeks ago by someone:

“….I had always known Christ was my Saviour, but I looked upon Him as an external Saviour, one who did a saving work for me from outside, as it were; one who was ready to come close alongside and stay by me, helping me in all that I needed, giving me power and strength and salvation. But now I knew something better than that. At last I realized that Jesus Christ was actually and literally within me; and even more than that—He had constituted Himself as my very life, taking me into union with Himself—my body, mind, and spirit….Was this not better than having Him as a helper, or even an external Saviour? To have Him, Jesus Christ, God the Son, as my very own life? It meant that I need never again ask Him to help me as though He were one and I another; but rather simply to do His work, His will, in me, and with me, and through me. My body was His, my mind His, my will His, my spirit His; and not merely His, but literally a part of Him. What He asked me to recognize was, “I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me.” Jesus Christ had constituted Himself my life—not as a figure of speech, but a literal, actual fact…. I had mistakenly thought, “To me to live is to be Christ-like” or “To me to live is to have Christ’s help” or “To me to live is to serve Christ.” No; he plunged though and beyond all that in the bold, glorious, mysterious claim, “To me to live is Christ.”“…there is a life that wins; that it is the life of Jesus Christ: and that it may be our life for the asking, if we let Him—in absolute, unconditional surrender of ourselves to Him, our wills to His will, making Him the Master of our lives as well as our Saviour—enter in, occupy us, overwhelm us with Himself, yea, fill us with Himself “unto all the fullness of God.”

It really spoke to my heart but it also caused me some confusion, like you said I have never really heard this taught before. May I ask in your understanding of what the Word tells us that it is no longer "I" that live but "Christ" who lives in me... how can there still be sin in my life? Do we still contend with the flesh in this body and sin even though it is no longer "I" that live but rather "Christ" who lives in me???

This is so important to me thank you
God Bless
Maryjane

Can anyone suggest a sermon audio that is along this line as i would be keen to hear it???

Bless you for this post i have been smitten by Him again because of it!

C.C.I

Interesting post. It reminds me of Ephesians 5 and Pauls description of the husband's duty to his wife. At one point the discussion changes:
"after all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it as Christ does the church - for we are members of his body. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the church."
Profound but beautiful mystery all the same.

Mary Jane, Thanks for what you shared with us. What your friend said was pretty helpful, although i am still coming to terms with this truth (i know it can only be revealed by the Holy SPirit and not 'worked out' by us) and your friend took it a step further and so i have printed out what they said and will look at it some more.

Pretty amazing truth that 'I am in Christ and Christ is in me!!'

You asked:

May I ask in your understanding of what the Word tells us that it is no longer "I" that live but "Christ" who lives in me... how can there still be sin in my life? Do we still contend with the flesh in this body and sin even though it is no longer "I" that live but rather "Christ" who lives in me???

Im not really sure what the right answer is. But here is my attempt. We clearly according to scripture are still left with the flesh and old sinful nature at conversion, and the whole of our life can seem to be a struggle between the two opposing nature. Truly if Christ is in us there will be a struggle, because He is righteous and His SPirit within us yearns for righteousness in our lives. However I believe it is as we come into the truth that we are truly one with Christ, and that our past is caught up in Him and His past (and our future likewise) i.e. that when He died we died in Him, or we died with Him, and when He rose, we rose IN him, when we come to realise that actually and definately as a fact of history - that in Christ we died to sin at the cross, we will realise that we have also been raised to newness of life in Him so that we can be free to live for righteousness. All of this will become real to us as we live upon Christ, make much thought of our being 'In Christ' and joined to Christ and one with Him.

This is all iv got so far- im learning as i go- its exciting!!!

In terms of sermons on the subject. I have looked on SI for some.

I have found this one by J Glyn Owen about 'Union with Christ' from Col 2:20-3:4:

http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID4672.mp3

And i hope i am not being naughty in doing this but i have got hold of four tapes by a preacher called Edward Donnelly from N Ireland, on 'Union with Christ', i have nearly finished the first one and it is Brilliant!!!! There really is such a lack of teaching on this. And you can find 4 sermons of his on 'Union with Christ' at the page below:

http://www.grbc.net/sermons/index.php?conference=7

As we discuss this subject of abiding in Christ, it might be helpful to point out a possible substitute: mysticism.

With so much inexact and sentimental language surrounding this topic, is there a way we can tell the difference between a writer who is abiding in Christ according to the doctrines of scripture and someone who is seeking a mystical experience?

(Edit: Shortened post)

Blessings,

MC

Thank you all for your recomendations...

I will go and listen/watch these titles mentioned and try and PM all who responded with my thoughts on these materials.

I really appreciate it.

Bless you all and the SI community at large it's a fantastic thing.

Here4Him,

Ted Donnelly is so right on in his presentation. I have only listened to the first one and will hear the other three. This is what our union with Christ is all about. New creation race of people in Christ. All else is, as Paul puts it dung. God only deals with us through Christ or Adam, Christ does as the Father says, Adam does as his father says, whom he chose to believe, Satan, that is in all the children of the first Adam. Praise God the Last Adam is available if we just believe into Christ.

Thanks for the invite to listen, it truly is brilliant.

Thanks, Love in Christ: Phillip

surely abiding in Christ is also a mystical truth, within a straightened defintion of mystical.

I must admit i agree with whatt sister Dorcas has said here. I was also a little uncomfortable with what brother Mike said. I understand that his concern probably comes out of a heart wanting to walk in the truth and avoiding error, i also understand that it is probably out of a love for the Word of God that our brother said what he said and we need to be careful we are not getting led offtrack or astray. However i have no problem with our relationship with Christ having a 'mystical' element to it- if you want to call it that. Maybe the term is unhelpful because of ite conotations and associations with other dangerous religous practises.

What i mean is that i want my walk with Jesus Christ to be more than just an intellectual relationship with the written word, instead i want to go through the written Word to the LIVING WORD Christ Jesus Himself and i want to commune with Him on a spirit to SPirit level and eat His flesh and drink His blood so to speak. So yeah i do want a mystical union with Christ, although again maybe there is a better word we can use instead of mystical! Just my thought!

I think we need to be careful that as Dorcas says that as we react against error we dont go too far the other way. I agree that in rejecting the devils counterfeit we must be careful that we do not throw away God's genuine article with it just because the devil had got a counterfeit that has certain similarities. But in all things as brother Mike would say we must be guided by the Word otherwise we get led into all sorts of strange practises.

Also Philip i am so glad to hear how the Lord is blessing you through Ted Donnelly's sermons, i believe this teaching is so important i want everyone on SI to hear it, i feel like i want to shout about it from the rooftops you know?!!!

How wonderful that God has taken us out of Adam and put us into Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because... surely abiding in Christ is also a mystical truth, within a straightened defintion of mystical.

i want my walk with Jesus Christ to be more than just an intellectual relationship with the written word,

I certainly want avoid placing a straight-jacket on the brethren here as they seek to know the Lord intimately. I suppose I was too brief and unclear in my question about mysticism.

Forgive me for being too general.

I do believe however we should avoid the use of 'mysticism' even if we think it can have two meanings. In the very least, that a term we mean to describe our union with Jesus can be so easily related to cultic practices, and is dependant on a continual program of disambiguation to reabilitate it, is reason enough to shy away from it.

My objection to mysticism is not an adherence to strict spiritless textualism, or an obvious caution against 'eastern' meditation, but is a reminder that there are powerful emotional and even psychic aspects of our own natures to keep in mind. Again I risk being too general here--- I do not mean 'psychic' in the Shirley McLane sense, but that we human beings are gifted with some extraordinary abilities to mimic the stirrings of the spirit in our flesh.

Let me approach this from anecdotal testimony. I knew an impressive man once that had an uncanny ability to 'prophecy' to people who were almost perfect strangers. Yet, in the end this man was a deciever as evidenced by disastrous and destructive fruit in his life. How then could he prophesy and give words of knowledge? Did he have union with the Spirit of God as he boasted?

I do not believe so. I believe we humans, (some more then others), have an ability to sense one anothers thoughts, emotions, whatever, and we can manipulate these elements. I believe many carnal people are operating under the guise of spiritual giftings through this soulish ability. They become 'familiar' with people very quickly.

Now how do we detect this tendency to imtitate the Holy Spirit to both ourselves in self-deception and to others in manipulation? My limited experience is that true abiding with Christ is not only on the level of inspiration, emotion, and sense (things that can be both authentic expressions of the life of God in us, and expressions of our own yearnings), but more fully proven when His abiding residense produces a clear conformity to Godly character. Such fruit of the Spirit may be partially or temporarily imitated but in the end the real comes into season and the tree is known.

For instance...a couple of weeks ago our associate pastor, an elderly saint of small physical stature preached at our church. Now I've known him to be godly man, through watching him week after week. Yet, being relatively new to the church, I had never heard him speak. When he announced his topic was on keeping the sabboth, I admit I was preparing myself to listen only out of sheer respect and not interest. Yet, how wrong I was. All during his message my eyes were misty, my heart was filled with wonder at the effusion of Godly wisdom that flowed effortlessly from this man. Here was a man that clearly walked with the Lord! He could have taught on any subject in the bible and probably left me with the same tenderness of heart.

Now what is interesting, is that even though this unassuming man's heart divulged that Christ abided there, I doubt he would have been quick to rhapsodize about his 'mystical union'. (Though I am sure, according to his brethren heritage, he would've been able to articulate about such a union with Christ if asked.) But he was not so complicated...to him the Lord was simply and deeply real to him, a trusted friend, a wonderful counselor, a savior and all the other comforts of the person of Jesus Christ.

Compare this humble but profound example of abiding with Christ to many modern examples of supernaturalists, estatic spiritual leaders who have godly visions and dreams but no Godly character. They think they mean well, but their outerman is too strong and is still ruling their 'ministry'. The images they see are vivid enough to them and even to the people they minister to, but in the end their spiritual emissions are mere projections of themselves. This is a very real and serious phenomenon that takes in many well meaning people even about themselves.

To me, the word 'mysticism' is talking about an effusion of the natural man, not an effusion of the Holy Spirit. To be sure, mysticism is not merely emotionalism, but a demonstration that man is a spiritual creature, capable of spiritual expression and mechinations even to himself in private. But experiences of mysticism, as spontaneous as they might seem, are not a safe demonstration that a man's spirit is abiding with the person of Jesus.

Godly character is the only way I know to authenticate who is abiding in Christ. (If someone knows a better way, I am truly willing to learn.) I believe this important understanding has more to do with the power of Godliness then supernatural manifestations.

Now, in the end, I'm just a fellow with my own experiences. I'm only testifying that I have seen some dark and confusing riddles in the church...sometimes very self-decieved riddles wearing suits and ties, stirring up expectations with prophecy, pentrating mens' souls to the amazement of the whole congregation with such convincing lucidity...but in the end these dark riddles prove to be wolves that ravage the flock with disolusionment.

Still dear brethren, I'm not wanting to hinder any ones closeness to the Lord. So please take my comments as additive, and not subtractive, to the fellowship you experience with the Lord. I know how tender is the fellowship of the Lord and would be loathe to dissuade any from enjoying him. My only point is to test the legacy of our spiritual experiences to see whether they be spurious or heavenly; that even after they fade to our senses they have left behind the enduring Fruit of the Spirit according to scripture.

... we must be guided by the Word otherwise we get led into all sorts of strange practises.

Amen.

MC

My only point is to test the legacy of our spiritual experiences to see whether they be spurious or heavenly; that even after they fade to our senses they have left behind the enduring Fruit of the Spirit according to scripture.

Brother Compton, thank you, you made some very good points and i think what you said is helpful and truthful.

You are right, true union with Christ or experiences of encountering Him supernaturally will produce godliness in our lives. Not just the absence of the negatives i.e. the sins we should not commit, but more than that a presence of the positives- all the fruit of the Spirit such as genuine sacrificial love (which cannot be found any other way) flowing from our lives.

Thank you brother

I do believe however we should avoid the use of 'mysticism' even if we think it can have two meanings. In the very least, that a term we mean to describe our union with Jesus can be so easily related to cultic practices, and is dependant on a continual program of disambiguation to reabilitate it, is reason enough to shy away from it.

As another pointed out here the connotations derived from certain words ... As you go on brother further, think this is accurate, there is something very troubling about the labeling that is used and applied with so many, many things.

It was Philologos who put me to much of a similar challenge and caution some years back now in this regard. I was and am still fond of some of these very labeled as such saints of the past, many names could be brought forth and to do so would bring out the charges and indictments ... It is so much easier to slap a label, push into a category, whitewash, blacklist, stereotype then I fear many would allow just an investigation fully into. Getting ahead of myself here.

I do not believe so. I believe we humans, (some more then others), have an ability to sense one anothers thoughts, emotions, whatever, and we can manipulate these elements. I believe many carnal people are operating under the guise of spiritual giftings through this soulish ability. They become 'familiar' with people very quickly.

Not a bit ironic that this has been up on the desktop this week again, stumbled upon it as an old link;

[url=http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/latent_power_of_the_soul.htm]The Latent Power of the Soul [/url] [i]by Watchman Nee[/i]

It certainly ties into a great deal of this expression and perhaps explanation even.

To back up again ... Maybe what is being drawn out and wanting of it's own expression is this want of 'fairness' in our derivatives, the giving of a 'fair shake', especially those who have been crowded into these categories that they end up being victims of even if it is the furthest thing from their minds.

For some odd reason an old bit keeps coming back to mind and as is my usual trait, many things derived from many different postings. Recalled that I had written this some time back and went searching for it ... Oh my, the long history of this fellowship, so many pains and strivings, just to review this again ... At any rate, the following extract starting from a brothers quote;

My point again is who cares what you believe...WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

[i]One of the great things about this place is the confounding of so much, the demolishing of so much presumption, the dismantling of 'denominational' constructs. It is a wonderful paradox to brood on.

How far different, to take just a cross section, is T. Austin Sparks from Keith Daniel, from Ron Bailey, from Art Katz, from David Wilkerson, from A.W. Tozer, from Zack Poonen, from Leonard Ravenhill? From Finney, from Wesley, from P.T Forsayth, from Watchman Née, from Oswald Chambers, from C.H. Spurgeon, from Chip Brodgan, from Robert Murray McCheyne, from Brother Lawrence, from Brother Andrew, from Paris Reidhead, from Ravi Zacharias, from Ray Comfort, from Ray Stedman, from R.A. Torrey, from Martin Lloyd Jones, from George Whitefield, from Stephen Kaung? Andrew Murray... Mueller[/i]

The 'easy' and perhaps even glib answer is, well, they all love the Lord or they are still brothers and all that is true. But I believe there is something intangible and further buried deep down than that which can be expressed easily. It is in part and maybe large part, character and just as well, personality. The above out-take there came about from a snippet out of T. Austin Sparks comments in another posting;

[b]Personality.[/b]

I repeat, then, that it was the glory of His personality as the Son of Man; for, almost in association with that, He spoke of His coming again as being 'the coming of the Son of Man in the glory of the Father'. This, so far as His perfecting was concerned, was not something that took place on the Mount. The Mount was the mark of the CONSUMMATION of His perfecting. I do not mean in the matter of sin - sinfulness or sinlessness - but the perfecting of His character, the perfecting of that inner man which we call personality. Personality is a strange thing, an elusive thing, something that you cannot get hold of, but you cannot mistake; it is THE person within - the man inside. Now, He, in that inner life of His, had worked out this whole matter of God's pleasure, God's satisfaction, through His life. There was the Divine approval at His baptism in similar words, indicating, probably, that His thirty years were approved; certainly indicating that the step that He was now taking, right out into public, with the Cross accepted (for His baptism certainly implied that) was approved. That brought the word from Heaven: 'My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased'.

~T. Austin Sparks
Men Whose Eyes Have Seen the King

Had really saved these up for a different reason (or season) but maybe it is worth the expression after all, here's the rest;

[i]Mix them up in any order and add in how many others, and pardon the unintentional expression, what a band of mis-fits! It is a wonderful blind ignorance that I could hardly tell which particular labeling by 'denomination' a great deal of these 'worked out of', the point being .... who cares! But it is much broader and all encompassing if we might allow ourselves to take note beyond the mere lip service of this central truth and I will dare to utter it; "Unified"

Just from this random sampling. The timelessness alone something to grasp. Across cultures and generations, circumstances. Add in the persecuted and the missionaries; Livingstone and Wurmmbrandt, K.P Yohanan, Hudson Taylor, Rolland Allen, the names listed in Fox's Book of Martyrs ... Running these partially from memory, partially from the ever growing collection.

The collective thought and the marked differences of particulars, secondary they be. Mix in the saints. Paul and Moses, Peter and Elijah, John and Joseph, Mark and Issiah, Luke and Jeremiah. Stephen and Phoebe, Mary and Mary's, Titus and Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, Tertius, Gaius, Epaenetus, strange names, 'obscure' names. Dare to throw your own hat into the mix. The 'great company of witness's'. Your heritage, your history, your family.

What's the point? Not all of these names are necessarily 'here'. Some have been salvaged and still speak audibly. Some written, some both. Some by extension and recommendation. Some the scriptures themselves. At one point in our lives, they were all foreign to us.

"And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Mar 3:32-35

This is what makes this more than just some 'place'. Another in the mix of many? It is distinct in intangibles, in a variety of expression. It is a schooling and a disciple making venture, a seminary of the Spirit ... I believe it to be a 'revival' in and of itself, more than even the pointing to and longing for something of the sort and substance of those in the past. Is it because it tends to dwell on all these 'old', 'dead' 'past' saints? In a word. Yes! Precisely!

But it is not a certain romanticism or nostalgia. It is not a thousand things. It is certainly not the trend of the day, the aptly put "chronological snobbery" that would put this in it's own category and lock it up as 'past'.

Coming here, what, 3 years ago now? Hardly a few of these names I knew, including those in the scriptures. By that I do mean 'knew' or 'know' in the deepest aspect of that meaning. Not so much 'personally', though in certain ways the gleaning of thought brings a certain familiarity. Members of this forum, having come to know by all the interaction and fellowship. Circumstances of our lives shared, the many prayers...[/i]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A bit of a divergence there and the greater context;
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=9873&forum=35&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0]Revival Idolatry[/url]

Compare this humble but profound example of abiding with Christ to many modern examples of supernaturalists, estatic spiritual leaders who have godly visions and dreams but no Godly character.

Godly character is the only way I know to authenticate who is abiding in Christ. (If someone knows a better way, I am truly willing to learn.) I believe this important understanding has more to do with the power of Godliness then supernatural manifestations.

To come back to the question at hand and further this great point MC is making ... Godly character ... Our sister recently got my attention in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=19717&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0]Is your Worship merely noise?[/url] where she had made mention of a certain Paul Washer message, I have been itching to disclose it here somehow, someway, some right placement that it might be granted a fair hearing.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=14249](The Glory of God) in Moral Purity[/url]

Don't let the title throw you, it is of such a profound expression of an honest heart I still struggle to give any comment on it. If anything I think it encapsulates much if not maybe precisely the effort here in all that is intended through SermonIndex, be it 'revival' or what have you.

i want my walk with Jesus Christ to be more than just an intellectual relationship with the written word,

Think you will be tremendously blessed by that message.

Apologize for the randomness of all this, expression is something that can find strange ways of leaking out.

[i]P.S. Wanted to note the message above is part of a series of four in total, looking forward to the remainder, they are of a similar heading towards the bottom of the page here; [/i][url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=442]Paul Washer[/url]

[i]P.P.S. Corrected the many mispellings[/i] Hopefully

nrlcharlie wrote:
Can anyone suggest a sermon audio that is along this line as i would be keen to hear it???

Bless you for this post i have been smitten by Him again because of it!

C.C.I

" Himself" by A.B.Simpson ," Wigglesworth" John G Lake. Peter Youngren teaches this, at Peter Youngren.org, A good book on the foundations "in Him" The Normal Christian Life by Watchmen Nee.

Most of these are not audio but, they have encouraged me, in this amazing Grace of God.

love in Christ tom

Mike,

There is always a warm sense of a grand embrace to all the saints in your reflections dear brother. This unspoken gift you have is one the many continual blessings you are to this place.

this want of 'fairness' in our derivatives, the giving of a 'fair shake', especially those who have been crowded into these categories that they end up being victims of even if it is the furthest thing from their minds.

Indeed. I kept wondering to myself as I was writing that last post, how do I avoid turning this into yet another 'rule' to pile upon the brethren who often already feel piled on? Many simply want to walk with their beloved in the garden, and then along comes a wiseguy like Compton to tell them that the garden they are walking in is really a minefield fraught with unseen peril.

Of course this is not my desire at all, and I eagerly downplay the significance of my thoughts in the overall fabric of this topic.

Whitefield himself used the phrase 'mystical union with Christ' to describe how evangelical faith, was different from the high church religion of his day.

To let the cat out... I myself have been called 'mystic' more then once. Occasionally by Christians, and once by an amused liberal professor who seemed to think my straightfoward statements of a living Jesus made me less fit for American religion and more fit for mystical estasticism. (I was sorely dissapointed that this impression is all I left him with.)

I fear my own 'mystic' quality to people has often only been of my own soulish energetic creativity, which may be a sincere desire put into fresh words what 'we have seen and heard'...but is more often a sincere yearning to know something more of what others have seen and heard. (I believe many ministries today are energized by similar soulish capabilities.) My sincere desire to articulate spiritual things has been lately a blessing, but I also remember it has been a stumbling block.

It has been the greater stumbling block to myself ironically...because people in the past have responded more to my expression of this 'mystical union' then the reality of it in my life. (We can be lured by articulation, a word that I notice begins with 'art.') And while they were responding favorably to my expression they did not notice my immature character...an oversight that the 'mystical' Jesus himself has to often correct with a very concrete hand.

And so, I realize that if I can decieve myself with sincere imaginations, even with sincere tears, I need to be more careful about what I articulate...to desire substance more then expression.

Now, I do not want to frantically wave people away from mystical inward rapturous experiences as a rule. Indeed, Jesus is dwelling within, and at certain times we are blessedly and keenly aware of this. In a trial Jesus may very well be making his presence known to the hurting and lonely soul, or to the street preacher strengthening the heart that needs boldness to speak, or to a compassionate minister, loving right through this willing vessel to some poor smelly person on the street.

Yet, we know he desires full time residence, that we are acknowledging him in all we do, not just in the mystical times. True, he is comforting us mometarily through our inspirations and senses, and I do not ever want to take that away from the brethren. Yet I have learned in small, joyful, and sorrowful lessons, that the comfort we desire of faith, hope, and love, is much more enduring when these become part of our character.

Perhaps this is my only important point in all my long winded point-making. The the gift of the Holy Spirit's comfort need not be a fleeting sensation of love or courage in a moment of deep worship, but sculpted, fired, and hardened into substance of character, the creation of the New Man who comforts others quite 'naturally' without the slightest whiff of mysticality. (is that a word?)

Blessings,

MC

Ah MC,

Brother, two peas in a pod we are ... I keep telling myself that I am surely the most peculiar person to ever have the Spirit of the living God taken up residence in, yet at the same time you would likely challenge that.

;-)

Recall a line you once stated, "If they only knew!"

Here comes that dreadful word ... balance, again. And maybe it is poor enough for all the derivatives, perhaps it's just plainly [i]caution[/i]. I full well understand and grapple with those who are quite rightly concerned over the mis-mash and confusion of so much out there, the extremes canceling out one for the other, every cliché' for the baby with the bath water, spiting out the bones ... It is very much the 'either\\or' that I find myself inwardly fighting against when honesty disallows it. When we are unable to firmly pigeon hole something into the 'clever schemes we have concocted in our heads' to butcher Ron's line ... It is simple and easy to criticize what we do not understand or have not really searched out to see if things be so ... The hardest thing to reconcile is this dividing of Spirit\\Word even while we have perhaps the greatest definition ever uttered;

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the [b]words[/b] that I speak unto you, they are [b]spirit[/b], and they are life.

But warnings we need indeed in this day and hour, no doubt about it, just odd sometimes that we need warnings for the warnings ... :-?

There is just no getting around the 'odd' things in this life with the Lord, it is why at this stage so far I have largely quit the business of over thinking and having an end of conclusion mindset. It just keeps getting dashed to pieces far too often by real life experience that can reach back and recall some .... odd, weird ... misti... No brother you are and perhaps I too are speaking the same language. Was just reading again back through some of George Fox's journal and it just about floored me to take notice of something;

[i]Now while I was at Mansfield-Woodhouse, I was moved to go to the steeple-house there, and declare the truth to the priest and people; but the people fell upon me in great rage, struck me down, and almost stifled and smothered me; and I was cruelly beaten and bruised by them with their hands, and with Bibles and sticks. Then they haled me out, though I was hardly able to stand, and put me into the stocks, where I sat some hours; and they brought dog-whips and horse-whips, threatening to whip me.[/i]

With their [i]Bibles[/i]!

Oh my ... Could stretch that into an easy analogy.

The Paul Washer message really gets down to brass tacks as it were. The sheer honesty and forthcoming of the mans heart, the bleeding of his very marrow into expression ... It was as if I could here dear Art Katz again saying, [i]To know God is everything[/i].

"The stamp of God on the man" I believe I heard him say in there somewhere in that message. That is what becomes the determining factor, it is also why I see such little difference between all those quoted up above in that little treatise of divergent thought amongst all these living and dead saints. Praise God for this healthy ignorance, I plan on keeping to it ... well hopefully anyway.

It seems maybe what is more needed is something to solidify this 'mystical' definition into something substantive ... if it is too loosely defined it is indeed trouble, all the very things you brought forth about these susceptible minds and their imaginations. Goodness if anyone is a bit paranoid about our present day 'prophets' for instance ... I digress. "Perhaps" is the great balancer (My turn, is that a word?) Again, Sparks comes to the rescue about our easy penchant to 'get our wires crossed' we are just as easily deceived even when we have some measure of discernment and are apt to go about beating with both our sticks and our Bibles if we are not more careful. That is not what you are doing, have gone off to generalities once again, but even Paul Washer makes a very good mention of this in that message.

Another good message for our brothers question that just dawned on me;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2763]Intimate Union[/url] [i]By Art Katz[/i]

Good stuff MC

Brother,

I have tried to read all the posts here and you got a lot of excellent admonitions, so I will not go there: in no way can I improve on what Compton, Mike, et al have said.

You wrote:

Is it me

I do not know what churches you have been in, but may I venture to say the answer to your question [i]could[/i] be a "yes"? You see, as we walk with God, He will in time reveal Himself more to us as we are open to this revelation. You see it is the process of "being changed from glory to glory". And there is more to come! :-)

God is not dull, is he? It is us who are dull!

Blessings,
ginnyrose

It is us who are dull!

Didn't see you there sister and stepped right over you it seems as the replies came in simultaneously.

Oh indeed and [i]ignorant[/i] ... slow to grasp [i]all[/i] that the ...

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Slow of heart ... to believe ...

Mar 9:19 And he answereth them and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you?

Incredible it is

There is only one reason the Holy Spirit is here.

Teach us Christ:

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-16 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

To teach this mystery of Paul, "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

He won't speak of Himself, He will guide you into all truth, whatsoever Jesus Has said, He will glorify Jesus Christ, He will testify of Jesus Christ, He will teach us all thing that Jesus has said and even the thing they could not bear, He shall be in you even as Jesus Christ is in our Spirit, the Holy Spirit is in our soul, our mind will and intellect, where we know, That Christ is in us.

This is what the Holy Spirit is hear for, to teach us Christ to distribute and direct His gifts to man, and to direct and distribute the spiritual gifts of His that will Glorify Jesus Christ, Not Man.

There is no mysticism in this, just truth spoken by the Lord Himself.

Proof: 1Cr 7:34 There is difference [also] between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please [her] husband.

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No one received it before Christ sent Him on Pentecost: Ephesians 3:4-12 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Now by Paul we receive the truth revealed by Christ Himself and the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Paul was not a mystic, but a teacher of the truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory to fulfill the word of God for this age.

Pregnancy is not mysticism, either is this Seed of The Father that is born again in the believer, the new life of another person, that is Christ Jesus in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip

Greetings

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted links to the different sermons. I have been blessed mightily by them. I am still seeking to understand all that He has for me and I know that God is faithful and He will continue to open my eyes and reveal Himself to me as I walk in Him daily.

God Bless
maryjane

God Bless you MaryJane, the Lord will certainly do all that as you walk with Him.

I must admit i was beginning to get a bit lost in some of the long, deep and slightly off the point recent posts. I am not meaning to chide anyone, who am i to do that. I am sure it was helpful for some of you, but i am keen to bring this discussion (if we can, and if it is not already over) back to the wonderful and simple truth of the docrtine of union with Christ, that to be a Christian is to be in Christ and Christ in you.

Has anyone listened to the Ted Donelly sermons, and what have you learned through them that has been new or fresh to you? I am interested to hear because that series of sermons have been huge to me!

Brother, two peas in a pod we are

I'll take that as a wonderful compliment.

Actually there is more embodiment then lecturing in this thread...which is a wonderful demonstration and blessing to me right now.

And, still wanting to make sure that I have not 'quenched the spirit' in anyone's current place with the Lord, I need to downplay once again my concerns.

If there is one area that we can't start making our own rules, it is this one. I'm reminded of the idea I've heard around here before...the solution to abuse is not disuse but right use. I believe the Spirit, even this weekend, put something back in my heart and path, that I had laid down (obediently for a season I believe) to remind me that the Lord we follow is not a list of principles but a person.

And above all, the heart I want to govern my reflections and speech on this tender but awesome mystery is for a sincere love of the brethren.(1 Peter 1) Against that measurement of Christ dwelling in me, I really know nothing and still have everything to learn.

Blessings all,

MC

The trouble with throwing out all these doctrines of the church is that often times it ends up being nothing more than lazy preachers who refuse to spend time in prayer and studying to show themselves approved unto God a workman.....I'll talk to myself so nobody gets to thinking I'm talking to them, but I think, what's wrong with talking to God about these doctrines in a time of fellowship, along some country road or busy city street or in some field or factory, I think that many of these things would become anchors instead of weights and become a blessing like fresh water wells instead of stagnet pools of broken down cisterns. I guess being an ignorant uneducated soul like I am I hate to see thousands of years of godly wisdom thrown by the wayside, a wisdom that was forged by intense prayer and often by blood. Union with Christ is for all of life, even in the boring parts like church doctrines and histories and such, as a part but not divorced of.......

Here4Him wrote:
By God's grace He has in recent days begun to truly and beautifully reveal to me the wonderful and foundational doctrine of 'Oneness with Christ' or Unity with Christ.

It is becoming so precious to me, but i had never really seen it before. Maybe i was just being really dumb and it was taught in a subtle way and i just didnt get it, but i dont think so, i really believe that in over 14 years of attending church i have never heard a sermon in all the churches i have been to on this subject. I am angry and dissapointed about that. Im beginning to wonder if there is any docrtine more important than this?!! Its at the heart of the gospel and i am beginning to see that scrupture is always referring to it.

Now many passages of scripture are beginning to make sense, like Col 2:12 "buried with Him in baptism by which you also were raised with Him through faith". Now i know that to be a Christian to 'believe in Jesus' is to be In Jesus (or to be one with Him), and to be in Him means that when He died i died, when He was buried i was buried in Him, when He rose i rose with Him, and now He is in heaven at God's right hand and In Him i am there too! He is my life! Because I am in Him God can treat me as He would treat Him, all His righteousness is counted as mine, His perfect life is mine, His death for sins is counted as mine- Oh how wonderful it is to be 'In Christ!'.

Now i know that all my interaction with God is only because I am in Christ, the only reason God can answer my prayers is because I am in Christ and when I pray in Christ's Name i am praying to the Father in Him- i.e. as though i am Him, therefore how could He turn my requests away!!!

I believe that this is one of the foundational truths to the very understanding of the gospel and i believe it will be the key to unlock Romans 6 to me. Know i can begin to understand how I have died to sin in Christ.

Because i am 'in Christ' or one with Him i can bodly cry to out God 'Treat me as you would treat Him' And He does! Through a lively faith in Christ i become joined to Him- one with Him and through His life, death and resurection and His suffering on my behalf i get the same treatment from God that he has always got- all because He (as my representative) got the treatment i should have got for my sins and rebellion (God's wrath upon the cross). That is the gospel!!! And oh what a gospel!!!!

Is it me or is this a forgotten doctrine? I really think it needs to be taught once again. I love it! I want to know it and then teach it to every poor Christian who hasnt grasped it! Have you grasped it?

I highly recommend a short book by E.W. Kenyon called

"Identification A Romance in Redemption"

It's only 70pages and is great profound truth to this topic.