The New Day of Rest

makrothumia,

Thank you for making an eloquent exposition of this topic. It's a while since I engaged on any thread around keeing 'the Sabbath'...

The Law set more days apart than the Sabbath.

Dear Brother makrothumia,

Please allow me to disagree with you.

I would just like to ask you some questions if I may.

Quote:
""""""We must stand fast in this liberty and not allow anyone, however sincere, to seek to place a yoke of bondage, THE LAW, upon our necks. Those who are of the Law are slaves unto bondage."""""

This Law that you refer to. is this the same law, commandments, statutes and judgments of Psalm 119?

Was David into bondage?

Were all the prophets that warned Israel of the judgments coming upon them because they did not hallow the Sabbath into bondage as well?

Brother, The Law that Contain the commandment for us to keep the Sabbath is a law of Love not a law of bondage.

Please read Psalms 119 and tell me, Are you and king David in Disagreement? should I take your definition of God's law or King David?

Just few thoughts, Now over to you.

Jayme

dear brother

you did not answer my questions.

This Law that you refer to. is this the same law, commandments, statutes and judgments of Psalm 119?

Was David into bondage?

Were all the prophets that warned Israel of the judgments coming upon them because they did not hallow the Sabbath into bondage as well?

Brother, The Law that Contain the commandment for us to keep the Sabbath is a law of Love not a law of bondage.

Please read Psalms 119 and tell me, Are you and king David in Disagreement? should I take your definition of God's law or King David?
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Dear brother,

Quote: ""Wow that leaves me six other days to do these things. For according to the Ten Commandments - then all the other days I can speak idle words, do what I please, and go my own way. How ridiculous.""
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Dear Brother, Come on. I will not even comment on this. But I will say this.

because you do not keep the seventh day as a holy day, Is it right of me to think that you think idle words and do what You please all week long? I think not. Why do are you inplying this about those who keep the sabbath Holy?

This is what the commandments says,

Exodus 20:8-11 " Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Please do not twist the Scriptures and make us look like we are a one day christian. We have to walk with Christ everyday of the week but the seventh we shall not do any work. That is what the commandment says.

Quote:"""and to deny myself daily and take up my cross every day, not just every 7th. Just what do you think you are trying to accomplish by this dialogue."""

I agree with you brother, but I only carry my cross for six days, on the seventh I carry no cross, that is why it is called the sabbath rest.
It is a blessing, I do no work, I do no worry, I just Rest.

You asked me what I am trying to accomplish with this dialogue?

I am making public what I believe, the same way that you are making public what you believe. Or do you think you are the only one with a voice?
I also want to make public the fact that the Sabbath is a blessing not a burden, and as you mentioned yourself from Isaiah, I want part on the blessings that will come upon those who keeping theselves from defiling God's Holy day.

Quote:"""The Pharisees were careful to keep the Ten Commandments - and yet our Lord told the crowds "Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and pharisees you shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven."""

Where in your bible did you find Jesus saying that the Scribes and pharisees kept the Ten commandment?

Jesus said that they they kept man made laws. and He even said that they broke the law of moses.

This is what Jesus said: Mark 7:6-13 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' 8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men -- the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 "But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" -- ' (that is, a gift to God), 12 "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

Please show me where Jesus said that they kept the Ten commandments and that He rebuked them for that?

Matthew 5:17-20 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

You Quote:""" "But the ministry of death written and engraven in stones"""

I never said brother that Corinthian was ceremonial law, again you are putting words in my mouth which I did not say.

Are the Ten commandments the ministry of Death. Let's see

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1st Commandment

No other gods.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 "and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods' -- which you have not known -- 'and let us serve them,' 3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deuteronomy 13:8-9 "you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 "but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.

Exodus 22:20 He who sacrifices to any god, except to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

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2nd Commandment
No Imagery

Deuteronomy 7:4-5 "For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly.
5 "But thus you shall deal with them: you shall destroy their altars, and break down their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images, and burn their carved images with fire.

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3rd Commandment

No taking His name in vain

Leviticus 24:16 'And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the Lord, he shall be put to death.

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4th Commandment
No labour on the sabbath

Exodus 31:14 'You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

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5TH Commandment

Honour your mother and father.

Exodus 21:15 And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 21:17 " And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
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6th Commandment
do not murder

Leviticus 24:17 ' Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.
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7th Commandment

do not commit adultery

Leviticus 20:10 'The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.

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8th Commandment
do not steal
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9th Commandment
do not bear false witness
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10th Commandment
Do not covet
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As you can see brother The Ten commandments written in stones is most definetely a ministration of death, if you disobey them. But a blessing if you obey them.

Remember what moses said.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 " Behold, I set before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 "the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you today; 28 "and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go after other gods which you have not known.

See brother, through the Law there is the knoledge os sin, and sin leads us to death.

So As moses said, if you obey the commandments, you won't sin and you will be blessed, but if you don't then the results of sin is death.
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You can think whatever you want about the Ten commandments, but one fact remain,

THEY WERE GIVEN TO MOSES BY GOD HIMSELF, THE HOLY OF HOLIES, WRITTEN WITH THE FINGER OF GOD THE ALMIGHTY CREATOR.

And Paul said,

Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

And God Said:

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I do not need the Stones to remind me of the laws of God for they are in my heart and in my mind.

And again, if I break them, it still brings death.

for Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus can cleanse your sins, but after he forgave the sins of Mary Magdalene,

John 8:11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

Quote: """ Are you saying it was only the ceremonies that brought condemnation?"""

I have never said such a thing.

Through the Law brother there is the knowledge of sin, without the law there is not sin, the Ten commandments reveals your sin. The ceremonial Law was used to cleanse the sins committed by the people. Most of the laws in the ten commandments resulted in Death, God took the breaking of the sabbath as serious as he took idolatry.

Paul says, Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Quote:
The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ not only fulfills the Ten Commandments, but so far surpasses them in glory that the former is not even worth comparing.

Brother james said.

James 4:12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not have different laws. They are all in one accord. You are saying that Jesus Laws surpasses God's law.
It is my love for Jesus, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that Compells me to keep God's Holy law, or if you want, Jesus Holy Law or The Holy Spirit Law, to me they are all the same.

Again. James 4:12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

Dear brother,

Quote: """Just in case I did not specifically answer your question regarding David and myself"""

Brother makrothumia, I think you misunderstood my question to you.

In your first message you were quite unfair, in my opinion describing God's law (Ten Commandments). and my question to you was, is the law you are talking about the same as the law and judgments David was describing in Psalms 119?

I was not asking for you to make a comparison about you and david.
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I am so happy brother to hear that your family is blessed by the lord, and that you are all His servants.

I just wouldn't go as far as to say that David, The King David would envy your position. He was the annointed one to be the king of the people God had chosen His own. The People that God separated to Himself, so that He could bring salvation to the word. But not only that, but Jesus would come from David's bloodline. Now that is a position to be desired. The saviour of the world came from his bloodline.

David did have some mishaps in his life, some of his children did not end up the way one would say they should. but one of his son had all this.

1 Kings 3:5-12 At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night; and God said, "Ask! What shall I give you?" 6 And Solomon said: "You have shown great mercy to Your servant David my father, because he walked before You in truth, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with You; You have continued this great kindness for him, and You have given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. 7 "Now, O LORD my God, You have made Your servant king instead of my father David, but I am a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in. 8 "And Your servant is in the midst of Your people whom You have chosen, a great people, too numerous to be numbered or counted. 9 "Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?" 10 The speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing. 11 Then God said to him: "Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked long life for yourself, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern justice, 12 "behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise.

This is How Jesus described Himself in Revelation.

Revelation 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

Brother this is something to be envious about.
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The intention of my question was not to get a comparison about you and David Brother. although I has been nice to know that you have a blessed family. But one thing I can learn from David, Despite of all his mistakes and sins, God still loved Him, and thought so highly of Him. It gives me the confidence that He loves me as well, with all my flaws, which are many. But With the Help of the Holy Spirit I am shaping up myself to meet my saviour on that great day for some and dreadful day for others.

May God continue to bless you and your family abundantly Brother.

In Love, Jayme

Dear brother,

quote: Our area of disagreement seems confined to how we see the Ten Commandments fulfilled in the New Covenant. I believe I walk in that fulfillment, and have assumed that someone as sincere as yourself toward the Law of God would walk this way also.
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Dear brother, I keep people saying about the old and new covenants. The Old given to Israel, could you please show me where was this new covenant given to us Gentiles?

Is this new covenant the same paul is talking about here?

Jeremiah talks about a new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
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In matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24 and luke 22:20

Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:24 "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:20 "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
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Paul here talks about a new covenant.

Hebrews 8:8-10 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

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NOte that he repeats exactly what Jeremiah said, and he goes on saying that this new covenant is for Israel and with the house of Judah.

my question to you is, for those who keep saying that the old covenant was just for israel and only israel should fulfil it.

Is this new covenant only for israel and the house of Judah as well?

Please can you give me the texts that supports this new covenant for the gentiles?

I keep hearing people saying that we are under the new covenant and I believe we are. but wasn't this new covenant given to israel and the house of judah.

Thank you for your time and patience.

God bless you.

dear brother I have another question for you.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 9:20-21 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;

NIV To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

Everybody keeps saying that they are under the law of Christ.

but what does paul mean when he says, though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ.

what is this God's law paul is refering to?

Now to me, He is saying that He is under God's law(ten commandments) and Christ's law(love, serving and humility)

The Law of Christ is mentioned only once in the Bible, in the Epistle to the Galatians: "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2, New King James Version). The Law of Christ: "Bear one another's burdens."

could you please explain this to me. since some say that paul did not keep the Ten Commandments, I beg to differ.

Dear brother.

I apologize for taking this long to reply to your message.

Romans 14:5-6 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
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Dear brother, I want to start this by pointing out that on the first verse of Romans 14. Paul mentions the fact that people were argueing about doubtful things.

Was the Sabbath a doubtfull thing to Paul? In my view, Absolutely not.

Let's put this into the context of Jew and Gentile. Paul was a Jew, and by being a Jew, He would have to keep the sabbath.

Remember that the Sabbath was a covenant on its own.

Exodus 31:15-17 'Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 'It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "

My question to you is, Was Paul a child of Israel?

If you answer is yes, then He would have to comply with the sabbath keeping.

Also note that Paul was persecuted many many times by the pharises and scribes, but He was never acused of sabbath breaking. Why?

In many verses we can see that Paul had the habit to go to the synagogue on the sabbath.

Acts 13:14-16 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, "Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on." 16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear
God, listen:

Here we know that Paul went to the synagogue on the sabbath.

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Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Here tells me that not only Jew were on the synagogues on the sabbath, but also the Gentiles. If it wasn't required for the gentiles to keep the sabbath holy, what were they doing there?

What is your explanation for the fact that the gentiles were attending church on the sabbath?
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Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

But look what happened in the following sabbath.

The whole city came to hear Paul's preaching.
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Now we come to a place where a lot of people use to do away with the sabbath law.

The Jerusalem Council. They say that if we were to keep the sabbath, the apostles would have mentioned it here.

But I want you to know that, the same way that Paul was arguing doubtful things on romans 14. The council also got together to decide on things that were doubtful.
The Sabbath was an established thing, why discuss it?

It is like making a new automobile, the engineers might get together to decide the size( width and hight) of a tyre that would best fit that car. You will not see them argueing about wheather they should used rubber, metal, wood or whatever other material you could think of to make a tyre. It is established that the material to be used is rubber. so no point in discussing it.

The time of the Jerusalem council, was a time where new converts were being mislead to being circumcised. They would tell them that they could not be saved unless they were circumcised.

Acts 15:19-24 "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law" -- to whom we gave no such commandment --

The sabbath was not dicussed there because it was not a point of doubt.
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Now this is a verse the clarifies it all for me. For many say that Paul went to the synagogues on the sabbath to persuade the Jews. Otherwise he wouldn't be there.

but have a look at this verse.

Acts 16:11-14 Therefore, sailing from Troas, we ran a straight course to Samothrace, and the next day came to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.

Here it tells me that Paul did not go to the synagogue on that particular sabbath. He went outside the city to a riverside, where Prayer was customarily made, On the SAbbath.

No jew here. Just the Gentile brothers.
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I have wrote this brother to establish the fact that Paul went to the synagogues on the sabbath, to preach, to persuade people(Jew, Gentiles and Greek-acts 18:4) to Christ, but also He would go outside the city to be with likeminded people to worship on the Sabbath as well.

Now back to romans 14. As I said before. Paul is
discussing with them about something that was creating problems among the brethrem.

I can see on verse 2, what that something was.

Romans 14:2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.

Verse 3-4 were also written about the same argument. People were judging people based on what they were eating or not eating.

Take note that there is no mention of the Sabbath in this passage. It is a mistake to read into this passage that Paul was referring to Sabbath observance. The reference here is simply to days. The Sabbath is definetely not the issue at hand.

The church of Rome had a composite of Jew and Gentiles as its members. On verse 2/3/6. Paul clearly identifies the issue of vegetarianism, not Sabaath observance. Paul was addressing a question of eating or not eating meat on particular days.

The whole chapter is about eating or not eating certain things. To even mention the Sabbath issue here would be absolutely out of context.

Now, if you put the fact of eating meat or not eating meat and apply to verses 4 and 5. it would make perfect sense.

Verse 4 - One person prefers not to eat meat in one day, another prefers not to eat it any day. so let them be convinced it in their own mind.

Verse 5 - He who doesn't eat meat in that day, He does it for the Lord, and he who doesn't really think important to stop eating meat, also does it for the Lord.

Brother to say that Paul is talking about the sabbath would be the same as describing a way to lose weight and right in the middle of it say something like this.

__How to lose weight__

1-Don't eat processed foods.
2-don't have too much sugar.
3-don't eat Too much.
4-Don't forget to do your english lessons.
5-do plenty of exercises.

You would say, what number 4 has to do with what we are talking about? Absolutely nothing.

It would be totally out of place.

Brother you cannot take an issue so important like the Sabbath and do away with it in two verses. The whole of the OT, God is pleading with israel to keep His holy day.

You might say that you keep it in the spirit, But when God gave the commandments he gave precise instructions as how we should keep it holy.

Six days we shall labour but the sabbath is holy to the Lord. The SAbbath Day Brother is a Holy day to men from God.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, By the hand of Moses Your servant.

The SAbbath is God's Day, it is His sign to us. and That is why Jesus said the He is Lord even of the Sabbath.

I have a question for you.

When Jesus was talking to the pharisees.

Matthew 12:11-12 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Now would it be the perfect oportunity for Jesus to just say, The SAbbath is not longer binding. for I am your sabbath, I have fulfilled the law for you. But he did not say that.

Instead He says, it is lawful to do Good on the sabbath. if Jesus had said it was Lawful to do good on the sabbath, then I am right to assume that there were unlawful things as well, and for us to know what that is, we have to go back to God's law(Ten Commandments) to find out what is unlawful on the Sabbath.

I hope I was able to explaing my views about romans 14. Any comments of it would be appreciated.

Jayme

Dear brother,

You are talking about Abraham covenant, But I actually had asked you to explain to me the new covenant. Wasn't it given to Israel and the house of Judah?

People talk about the Old Covenant, and the New covenant. But to me they were both to the house of Israel.

You said the Gentiles are partakers of Abraham covenant. could you point out to me this old covenant and new covenant. That states the fact the gentiles are part of it?

You said that Gentiles and Jew are partakers of Abraham covenant by faith. But you did not explain the old and the new.

Your thoughts will be very much apreciated.

God bless

Dear brother,

quote: Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Jesus worked everyday. Did He break the law?""

When you say that Jesus worked everyday. was it labour work? or was his work to do good to others?

My other question to you is, When God rested on the seventh day of creation. Did the Sun rise or it didn't for God was resting? Did the moon shine in the evening? Did the whole creation that he had just finished creating, stand still, while God was resting?

Please Brother do not compare the work that God does, and the work the Jesus came to do here for us, to the same works that he wants us to rest from.

Please read the fouth Commandment and you will see that God is especifically talking about labour, the same labour he told Adam would have to do in order to get His provisions.

But again I will repeat it.

If there is lawful things to do in the Sabbath, there has to be unlawful things, and when I say unlawful things, I mean things that are not forbiden in the other six days.

God Bless.

Dear jayme,

I wish to respond to just one statement from the early part of your last long post on p2, where you said:

Let's put this into the context of Jew and Gentile. Paul was a Jew, and by being a Jew, He would have to keep the sabbath.

Regarding Jew and Gentile, makrothumia has explained much which is relevant and complete, so I want to draw to your attention these verses which clearly tell us that Paul had consciously stopped keeping the law, exchanging the circumcision of his heart, for any former meaning that his outward circumcision had had.

The Old and New Covenant do not co-exist. The New Covenant is a total replacement for the Old, even though some people still keep the Old by tradition, they are, under the terms of the New Covenant, freed to walk away from the Old forever, and into the New, without hesitation or pausing for breath, except to thank God for a finalisation of His plan of salvation for man, in Christ, brought to us by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said this, also:
John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 [u]But the hour cometh, and now [b]is[/b][/u], when the [u]true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth[/u]: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God [i]is[/i] a Spirit: and they that worship him [u]must[/u] worship [i]him[/i] in spirit and in truth.

Here are some of Paul's statements, which I hope you will research:

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that [u]they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel[/u], I said unto Peter before [i]them[/i] all, If thou, [b]being a Jew[/b], [u]livest after the manner of Gentiles[/u], and [u]not as do the Jews[/u], why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the [unbelieving-in-Christ] Jews?

1 Corinthians 9:20
And unto the Jews I be[u]came[/u] as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

(Note his use of the past tense, confirming that he had already abandoned living like a Jew usually.)

There is one other verse to mention, which ties in with your questions about the New Covenant.

When Jesus answered Nicodemus, (John 3) He said 'You [u]must[/u] be born again'. So this was the first time Jesus said 'must'

There is a root in the word '[u]nat[/u]ion', which directly refers to the [u]nat[/u]ural birth of the person. Therefore, when we are 'born again' we become part of a new [color=006699](spiritual) [i]nation[/i] who have been born from above (of God).[/color]

The Old Covenant offers many parallels in shadow, including that it was conditional. Being born Jewish didn't make a person right with God [i]per se[/i], but keeping the law did.

Now, through the coming of the New Covenant, keeping the law became obsolete, and doesn't make a person right with God; but believing in Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection (with all their implications for our obedience to live by faith in the Spirit, and walk in newness of life doing our Father's will, daily) is what counts.

Many Hebrews died in the wilderness for breaking the Old law by their unbelieving behaviour, and excluded themselves from the promise God had given them. Likewise we can exclude ourselves from the promise of eternal life, by preferring to keep the law, rather than to enter into faith with God through Jesus.

If Paul wrote Hebrews, he said to them 'Let us study therefore, to enter into rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief' (Ch 4).

I agree with Paul that it [i]is[/i] a matter to be studied and [i]mastered[/i], on which our whole salvation rests. Amen. (No pun intended - sorry!)

Dear brother micah.

My Quote: """Please Brother do not compare the work that God does, and the work the Jesus came to do here for us, to the same works that he wants us to rest from."""

Respectfully. Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, you are teaching directly against what Jesus is saying NOT to do.
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Dear Brother, talking about taking things out of context. Where in my statement, did I imply anything against the Trinity?

Please Go back to my post and please read it carefully, there is no such a statement there whatsoever.

Just to clear things up.

I do believe in the Trinity, God the FAther, Jesus the Son and The Holy Spirit.

God gave the commandment for us to rest of our labor.
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Thank you brother for pointing out John 5:17, I thought that is what were talking about.

You quote my question back, but you did not give me an answer.

So here it is again.

My other question to you is, When God rested on the seventh day of creation. Did the Sun rise or it didn't for God was resting? Did the moon shine in the evening? Did the whole creation that he had just finished creating, stand still, while God was resting?

We know that God rested on the seventh day, and felt refreshed. But we also know that The sun rose, the mist came down, the moon shone and all that. God is so Awesome that He can Rest to give us the example and He can also set things into motion, so life goes on on its course without having to come to a complete stop.

Can we compare God' works with our labor. Can we compare Jesus works with our labor, can we compare the Works of the Holy Spirit with our labour? I am talking about the labor God wants us to rest from.
AM I dividing the Trinity? most definetely not. I am just pointing out that their works are completely different than the labor we are supposed to stop on the seventh day.

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Quote:

I have read the forth Commandment, but the question is, have you read read Jesus' Commandments. Here it is (in scripture).

Matthew 22:34-40.

Brother that is where we disagree. I believe that Jesus and the father and the Holy Spirit are one. God's law, Jesus law are the same. to me there is no difference. Jesus came to fulfil His father's Law, not to destroy. by doing that He was fulfilling His own law, We all know that He came to do the will of the FAther, not His. But by doing the will of the Father He was doing His will as well, for they are one in accord.

To me matthew 22:34-40, Jesus is clearly talking about the Ten commandments.

First four commandments, showing how I am to serve God.

The six others, how I love my brother or enemy, if you so want to say.

What is this law and the prophets that He talked about?
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One thing I must say though, Everybody keeps throwing back the argument that, if I keep the SAbbath Holy, I am disregarding the other days, or if I keep the sabbath holy, can I live an unholy life the other six days? That is not what God commanded us to do at all.

He Said, six days you shall labor, but the seventh day no work shall be done.

Very simple and clear.

Do I still have to pursue a holy life the other six days? most definetely. Do I regard the other six days as a God's gift? most definetely. But one fact remain, He, The God Almighty demands us to keep His day Holy,(Seventh day, Sabbath, Saturday) not sunday, not first day.
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Quote:""""I will state the same thing that I have stated in other threads. That is: When a man tells me to STOP listening to what Jesus says and start listening to what “that man” thinks, I will “end the conversation”.""""

Please brother feel free to stop the conversation at any time. Nobody should feel obliged to do any thing they don't want to. but please do not say that someone, In love, trying to point out to you about God's holy law, is telling you to stop listening to Jesus. where did you get that from?

Am I asking you to stop listening to what Jesus said? most definetely not, for if I say that I would fall into contracdiction. I believe that God gave us the Ten commandments, I believe that Jesus gave us the Ten commandments,(Matthew 22:34-40) and I also believe that The Holy Spirit Gave us commandments(Mathew 22:34-40) to me, they are one in mind and character. They do not have different laws, as you are saying.

Dear brother deltadom

The word Rest is to be used in relation to our six day labour. Jesus said that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Can we still get phisically tired by doing good to others on the SAbbath? Sure, but that is not labour as to get something in return, we do it to benefit others, not us.

My question is, if Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the sabbath, it tells me there there are things that is unlawful to do on on the sabbath.

Please do not say that what I mean is that you have to live holy on the sabbath and have six days to do whatever your flesh wants.

Again, this is not what God commanded us, He was very clear when He said, thou shall not labour on the seventh day. You still have to live a godly life the other six days, but on the seventh you should not do any labour.

God Bless

Dear jayme,

I have one simple question which arises from your last post.

In your understanding, is the Sabbath of the fourth commandment limited to the seventh day....? as my understanding from scripture is that a sabbath could fall on any day of the week, depending [u]when[/u] God decreed it should be, and the important thing then was, (as you mention about not doing work for a return such as pay,) was to spend that sabbath doing [u]what[/u] God had decreed should be done in it.

Dear brother Phillip.

Quote: """Jhn 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

You know it is ironic some of us pick the day to keep that the Jew's killed Jesus for not keeping it.+++++
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You have quoted a text from John, I would like to quote the same text but from the beginning of the chapter.

Here is what the chapter is about.

John 5:5-15 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?" 7 The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me." 8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, "It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed." 11 He answered them, "He who made me well said to me, 'Take up your bed and walk.' " 12 Then they asked him, "Who is the Man who said to you, 'Take up your bed and walk'?" 13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." 15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
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Did Jesus broke the Law of the Sabbath? Most definetely not. For Jesus Himself said,

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

If to do good on the sabbath is lawful, I must assume that there are things that are not lawful to do on the sabbath. If the sabbath was no longer biding, Jesus could have said to them. Anything is lawful on the SAbbath(anything that is lawful to do on the other six days). why didn't Jesus just told them, I am your sabbath, You don't have to keep the sabbath holy anymore.

Why didn't he say that to them?
For He had said that He was the Son of God, making Himself equal to God.

Brother Phillip Could you please give me the text in the bible that supports your claim.
""the Jew's killed Jesus for not keeping it(The Sabbath)"""

Brother In my bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, tells me that Jesus was Killed because He said He was the Son Of God, and by saying That He made Himself equal to God.

Nowhere I can find that the accusation of Sabbath breaking was even mentioned when He was brought to the High Priest or Pilates.

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Mark 3:2 So they watched Him closely, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.

Matthew 12:10-14 and behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" -- that they might accuse Him. 11 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13 Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other. 14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.

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WE see here that they wanted to catch Jesus on something to accuse Him, but even though Jesus Healed some people on the sabbath and they came and aske Him about being lawful of not lawful the heal on the sabbath, and even after Jesus having answered them, they did not find anything to accuse Him, instead,

Matthew 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.

It tells me that they did not having anything against Jesus in regard the Sabbath, had they had anything they would have just accused Jesus of Sabbath breaking instead having to plot something so that they might destroy Him. For we know that according to the Law of Moses, Sabbath breaking was punisheble with Death.

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Brother your claim that Jesus was killed because He broke the law of the sabbath it absolutely untrue.

Please Give me the texts that proves your claim, I would love to see them.

Dear Brother Phillip.

Quote"""You know it is ironic some of us pick the day to keep that the Jew's killed Jesus for not keeping it."""

Brother Phillip you better have a closer look in what you believe, for if Jesus being a Jew did not keep the Sabbath, He then Broke the Law of God, and committed a sin.

Your Claim that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath, Therefore, breaking the fourth Commandment is quite Franckly something really serious to say just for the sake of your argument. For my bible tells me that He was the Spotless Lamb of God and in Him No Sin was ever found.
He Never Sinned, never broke a commandment. Fulfilled the Law completely.

Please tell me that I misunderstood your quote.

Dear brother Dorcas.

Quote: """In your understanding, is the Sabbath of the fourth commandment limited to the seventh day....? """"

Yes.

Deuteronomy 5:12-14 ' Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work:

Brother, God set a sequence of events, and it does not change. You Work six days, You rest one.

In Creation God worked Six Days, and He rested on the Seventh. He could not have put it any simpler.

You Work six days, You rest one.

You Work six days, You rest one.

You Work six days, You rest one.

You Work six days, You rest one.

How could it possibly Fall in the middle of the Week.
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Maybe you are talking about the Feasts of the Lord?

Unless I have misunderstood your question. I am surprise that you asked it. It is just a matter os sequence it cannot change.
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Please if I misunderstood you, Ask me again.

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Could you also be a bit more clear in regard of the second part of your post, Not sure I understood it.

Dear brother Phillip.

quote: """If you want to keep the 7 day Sabbath, so be it, but don't put the temptation in front of others to take them away from our true Sabbath which is Christ Jesus our Lord, any day and every day, His Day of Rest."""

Quite harsh words brother. I am trying to point out to you what God commanded us to do. You might not agree with it but to go as far as to refer to one of God's commandments as temptation?

I have an obligation with God to spread His truth. You might not like it and so does a whole bunch of people.

Don't you feel that sometimes you want to talk to someone about Jesus, and they just turn to you and say, Keep your jesus to yourself, I am not interested. I am fine the way I am, whatever I believe is sufficient for me.

Should that stop you from spreading the good news of the Gospel of Christ? Certaninly not. You must hold fast to your faith and do what you believe is your duty as a Christian.

If you do not want to discuss it any further brother Phillip you have all the freedom to stop writing at any time. Whatever you write here and whatever I write here are just words. It will only have any effect on someone's life if the Holy Spirit shows them, You or I cannot do anything but spread the news, the convincing part is the Work of the Holy Spirit, not yours nor mine.
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Could you please show me where God said that we should keep everyday Holy?

Brother if you keep every day Holy, you are breaking the fourth commandment, For God said that you must work the other six days.

The commandment is,

Work six days, and rest one. I don't think God was open to negociation about His commandments.
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I am suppose to live my life as a servant of Christ seven days a week, I totally agree with you, but one fact remains. When it comes to my labor, I must work six days and rest on the Seventh.

I am so thankful that God has reveled the blessing of the sabbath to me. Me, the one that needs God's grace the most, For among the sinners, I was the worst.

Dear brother Dorcas,

I would like to make some comments on a message that you sent to me 2007/10/11 12:23.

Quote: """"Let's put this into the context of Jew and Gentile. Paul was a Jew, and by being a Jew, He would have to keep the sabbath.
------------------------------------------------
First I would like to mention that in Hebrew thought, an hour refers to the whole day and a taste refers to the whole drink. Likewise a 'day' can mean the whole age, for instance, the 'day of salvation' (2 Cor 6:2).

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Dear brother, The Sabbath I am talking about here is the same sabbath that God rested on the first week of creation
The bible is very clear to say it was evening and morning the first day, and so on.

So I believe that when I say sabbath, I am refering to a period of 24 hours, evening and morning.

I believe that when God Created the World, when he said first day, He meant 24 hours of the first day and so on until the Seventh Day, where He rested and felt refreshed.

Do you believe that the world was created in a period of seven Days, or should I apply your logic and maybe think that it took millions of years for God to create the world?

Now either, a day is just a day(24 hours) and it took seven days(Seven 24 hours periods) for God to Create the whole world And the Seventh day(Sabbath) is just the one fraction of that seven periods. Or I use your logic of time and then a day can be a whole age(Whatever amount of time that might be) and creation took a period of seven whole ages. Then God rested the one fraction of that seven periods.

Which one is it?

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In Regard of the Old and the New Covenant.

I asked this question because everybody says that they are on the New Covenant.

When we mention the old covenant everybody is quickly to say that was something God Gave Israel. The Sabbath was something for Israel and Israel alone. Please I am not arguing this.I am not arguing the fact they co-exist either.

My question to Brother makrothumia, was

Can you please give me the bible texts that tell me about the new covenant for the Gentiles.

For in Jeremiah God says,

Jermiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

And in Hebrews, Paul confirms that,

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
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Where is the Covenant for The Gentiles?
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Brother I know the difference between the two covenants.

I am just asking this, because Some people do put a separation between us and Israel, Saying that the Ten commandments is something between God and Israel, not for us. I am not sure if you share the same view.

One thing I know, God made a covenant between Him and Israel, that the sabbath should be kept by them as everlasting covenant, forever and it was a separate covenant from all the others. So in your view should they still keep the Sabbath? Or are they relieved from that as well. Based on the new covenant?

Now, either we all are supposed to keep the sabbath holy, or neither of us should keep it?
We know that God does not show partiality or favour to anybody, and we also know that the sabbath is a covenant that is suppose to last forever. Where do you stand?

I will say this again. I do not regard the sabbath as a burden when I say if Israel should keep it then so shall we, totally the opposite, it is a delight to me, If Israel is supposed to be blessed by keeping it Holy, I also want to be part of this blessing.

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One more questiong to you.

Since God doesn't show partiality to anybody?

WE know that someone was stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath.

If the Sabbath is no longer required for us to keep or for the israelites to keep either.

My question is.

Do you think this person, on the Day of judgment, will consider God to be a fair God for taking His life for something that was so important to Him back them but today He regards it as just like any other day.

How would you feel if you were in his place?

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Quote: """"Many Hebrews died in the wilderness for breaking the Old law by their unbelieving behaviour, and excluded themselves from the promise God had given them. Likewise we can exclude ourselves from the promise of eternal life, by preferring to keep the law, rather than to enter into faith with God through Jesus.""""
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Dear brother, Who is preaching salvation by works here?
Please tell me who is, because I would join forces with you, to explaing to them that Savation comes by Faith in the Son of God. Jesus Christ is the only one that Can save them.

But one cannot just think that by having faith in Jesus one doesn't have to do a thing, his salvation is garanteed.

If that is you brother I would like to take you to Matthew,

Matthew 19:16-17 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
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These are Jesus words not mine.

But then the young said.

Matthew 19:18 8 He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said:

Matthew 19:18-20 Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "
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Jesus has just mentioned 60% of The Ten commandments. Six out of 10.

and what does james say:

James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
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Here you have James talking about the Ten commandments we well.

And what does He Say about those who stumble in one?

Yes, he just broke the whole law.

You can say that Jesus mentioned six commandments out of ten and he did not mention the SAbbath, but James just told us that If we stumble in one, we have broken the whole law.
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20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"

For those who think I am preaching salvation by works.
Here is what I want you to pay attention.
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Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

The first part of the Verse.

Jesus new his heart and where his passions really were, He loved the riches of the world, his social position etc... You cannot love God and the world.

When Jesus told Him to sell everything. What He really meant was: stop loving the world and its riches, and Then put your faith in me. Follow me and you will be perfect..

I believe that the Following me, means, put your faith in me, walk after me, Give your life to me. Love me with everything you have. Love me with all your heart mind and soul.

Matthew 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
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What I want you to see here is that Faith in Jesus and keeping the commandments will grant you salvation. You cannot love Jesus and not keep His commandments.

For Jesus said,

John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.
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Please do not say that I prefer one(Law) from the other(Faith in Christ) because that is not what I am saying at all.
I prefer faith in Christ first, and then I prefer to show my love for Him by Keeping His commandments(Ten Commandments).
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Jayme,

I was reading and skimming through most of the posts and my interest was peaked. I just wanted to ask you how you keep the Sabbath.

Do you go out to eat on the Sabbath? Or

Do you prepare everything the day before so your household does not sin by doing any work whatsoever on the Sabbath?

Do you travel at all on the Sabbath? If so, how far?

With over 600 or more commandments to keep, how do you know that you are keeping them all to perfection and not sinning? Maybe I'm not correct here but technically, if we shoose to keep the law and can't keep it in it's entirety, then we shouldn't have hope in the grace of Christ if we are choosing to keep the law instead, can we?

If you are going to keep the law of the Sabbath, then it really needs to be kept in it's entirety or you'll be out of luck like all the other people of God from the OT. Don't ya think?

If you'll remember when Jesus rose from the dead, it says that many of the saints and/or prophets were seen walking in Jerusalem. So this means that those people, great as they were in the Lord still couldn't keep the law and were directly to hell. They did not get to pass Go and collect $200.00!!! I would rather choose to live by the grace of God and have remission for my sins because Heb 10:18 says, "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

I don't know... that's just my two cents worth. It might not even be worth that.

Jayme, God bless you in your walk with Him!!

Dear Sis Intens4Him,

Thank you ever so much for your message.

Quote
""""""I just wanted to ask you how you keep the Sabbath.

Do you go out to eat on the Sabbath? Or

Do you prepare everything the day before so your household does not sin by doing any work whatsoever on the Sabbath?

Do you travel at all on the Sabbath? If so, how far? """"""
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Dear Sister, The greatest and most common mistake that most people make in regard of the Sabbath,Is the Fact that all of them concentrate on the things that they cannot Do, and therefore they cannot get past the idea that God's Holy Day is not a burden.

The Seventh day was given to us for two reasons.

Rest and Rememberance.

You mentioned 600 or more commandments that you have to keep. Can you show me where I find these 600 or more commandments in my bible?

Genesis 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

God finished His Six day (works of creation) and He Rested. So He Gave us this blessing.

Now, Back to your question about how I keep my sabbath Holy?
All you have to do sister is to go back to the book.

As I said before, I do not concentrate on the things I cannot do and instead I concentrate on the things I can.

The sabbath was originally given to us for us to Rest. So here is something that you can do.

Jesus said,

Matthew 12:12 it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Another thing that you can do.

We know what Jesus did on the Sabbath.

Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Here is another thing that you can do. We can go to church and praise the Lord.

Deuteronomy 5:12-14 ' Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.

Another thing I must do, I must keep His day Holy. But You might ask How do I do that?

Here is the Answer by God Himself.

Deuteronomy 5:13-14 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God.

So, If I do good to others, Go to church and Rest, I would say that I am doing pretty much what God asked me to do on His Holy day.

Sister Concentrate on these(Rest, Church and doing good to others) and I am sure you will feel in your heart the blessings that the sabbath really is. There is one more thing that I really like to do on the SAbbath, I like to go to a beautiful place and spend time observing nature and reading the word of God. In Romans,

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead

So I enjoy seeing God through His creation.
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Now let's talk about things that we cannot do on the Sabbath.

This you mustn't do.

Deuteronomy 5:14 In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

Isaiah also talks about some things that we can and cannot do on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 58:13-14 " If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, 14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."

I have searched my bible sister to find these so called 600 commandments that you talked about and I just could not find.

Please show me where in the bible you can find them? I would be very much interested.

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Quote: """"Maybe I'm not correct here but technically, if we choose to keep the law and can't keep it in it's entirety, then we shouldn't have hope in the grace of Christ if we are choosing to keep the law instead, can we?"""
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Dear sister, You are talking about choices here and quite franckly I believe there are none to be made.

Let me take you to Matthews.

Matthew 19:17-21 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
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To me this is the Best thing to show someone that wants to be saved. Here is the perfect recipe for salvation.

Now according to Jesus, if you want to be saved you have to Keep the commandments and follow Christ.

You see, Faith in Christ and Works and deeds to back your faith up.

If only faith was the Recipe, then Jesus would have told the young man.

Just believe in me. But we know that He did not say that did He. He first said, Keep the commandments, which by the way He listed six out of the Ten commandments. and Then follow me.
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You mentioned about choice in going back to the law and things. Sister, Go back to your texts that supports your arguments and I can garantee you that one hundred per cent of the cases, Paul is talking about Circumcision, talking about ceremonial laws.

To me it is very clear, maybe it isn't for you.

Moral Law (Ten commandments) one

Ceremonial law(Sacrifices, feasts, circumcision, etc.) another

Nowhere in the Ten commandments you will find anything about circumcision, sacrifices, etc..

Why, because they are different laws.

I keep saying this, As a christian, I am pretty much sure that you already keep all the other nines commandments, why not go all the way and have the blessings of the Sabbath in your life?
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Quote:"""If you are going to keep the law of the Sabbath, then it really needs to be kept in it's entirety or you'll be out of luck like all the other people of God from the OT. Don't ya think? """"
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You are right there.

And I believe that by

Resting, worshiping and doing good to others. I am pretty much fulfilling what God wants from me, in regard of the Sabbath keeping.

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My question to you is.

How about your choice of completely disregard the sabbath. Where does that leave you?

James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Note that James is talking about the Ten commandments here, for he mentions two of the Ten.

Now, As you said yourself sister, you either keep the Ten as a whole, or disregard them all. Cannot pick and choose.

Please do not say that I am preaching salvation by works, because I have said it many times before. I can only be justified by faith in Christ. Now I have given my life to Christ, I have accepted Him as my only saviour, but also I am keeping His commandments, which by the way are not burdensome.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

I hope I answered some of your questions but any comment would be appreciated.

In love and in Christ, Jayme

Dear brother Christinyou.

Could you please make up your mind,

You said that Jesus broke the law of the SAbbath by not keeping it.

Now you say that He kept the whole law.

Now which one is it?

The other thing, you claimed that Jesus was killed for not keeping the Sabbath. Could you show me the text that proves your claim?
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Brother Phillip,

You keep writing about faith in Christ,

We all know that without faith is impossible to please God.

Faith is not the issue here.

We all have faith in Christ and what He did for us.

The issue Here is, should we keep His commandments?(Ten Commandments)

Jayme

Dear sister Intens4Him,

On the last part of your post you wrote something that I wanted to addres separately.

Quote:"""""If you'll remember when Jesus rose from the dead, it says that many of the saints and/or prophets were seen walking in Jerusalem. So this means that those people, great as they were in the Lord still couldn't keep the law and were directly to hell."""""
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Please where did you get this idea?
You are the first person ever to say, that saints were sent to Hell?

Please do clarify this for me. Are you talking about Matthew 27:51-53

Because if you are, There is nothing in here that would indicate that saints were sent to Hell at all, or that they could not keep the law.

Dear sister, if Saints and prophets are being sent to Hell, What God do you serve?

For the God I serve would never sent a saint to Hell.

Here is the text from matthew.

Matthew 27:51-54 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
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If this is not the text, then please send it to me, for I would love to see how you got to the idea that saints were sent to hell.

I don't expect a reply. for there is no way, God would send saints and prophets to hell. For Hell is not a place for saints but for unrepented sinners.

Dear blazedbyGod,

Not only Jesus Went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath, but Paul also di the very same thing.

Some people say that Paul would go to the synagogue on the Sabbath to persuade the Jew, but we know that Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles and in many occasions it is mentined the fact the the Gentiles were there on the SAbbath, so that Paul would preach to them.

But there is a verse in acts that tells me that Paul worship on the sabbath no matter where He was.

Acts 16:11-13 Therefore, sailing from Troas, we ran a straight course to Samothrace, and the next day came to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Here it tells me that on The Sabbath, Paul would find likeminded people to spend the day in prayer. If there wasn't a synagogue for Him to go, He would go to a place, by nature, and meet with other people just to spend God's holy day in prayer. He wasn't there to persuade jew, greek or gentile. He was there for the simple fact that it was the Sabbath and He should Keep it holy.

I am not sure if it was you that said this before. but The apostle Paul, althought persecuted by the pharisee and scribes, They never accused Paul os Sabbath breaking, Why is that?
Was Paul saying that the Sabbath was not longer binding to them and yet doing the oposite so he would not get into trouble? I think not.

For He Said, I am here to please men or to please God?
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The other interesting thing is the fact that some people write here saying,

Prove to us that the Sabbath was kept before God had given to israel the Ten Commandments?

God established the Sabbath as part of creation. If God sanctified the Sabbath, and make it holy, then I should assume that men kept it, period.

Now for those who says prove it. I say,

You got it all wrong brother, You are the ones that have something to prove, not me.

It is amazing how they turn the argument in their favor.

Don't you agree?

Dear brother,

Quote: """I do not support brother jayme's position on the Sabbath or his arguement for it."""
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Dear brother

Please do not take this in the wrong way, but...

Your support or opinions to me are of no value. Lie Paul said: Am I here to please man of to Please God.

If you think you can show me that what I believe and preach is wrong by using the bible as you authority, then I will turn and change my ways.

As far as your opinion and supporte are concerned, I am not particularly interested. I am interested in what the bible tells me.

So, show me in the bible that I am wrong or I am not interested in your opinions.
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What's up with this KJV argument of yours?

what is the relevance of your post about KJV?

Are you know arguing what bible version I used?

Maybe I misunderstood you, but if that is what you said, for your information I use the NKJ.

Please let's stay with the issue at hand and stop arguing about silly things.

Dear brother Micah,

I will not get into a silly arguments with you, I will not go down that Road.

However, since you are saying that I am avoiding your question I will reply to them.

So, not to run the risk of missing something out I went to your first message and I will try to answer all your questions.

I did not answer you before because you claimed that I was telling people to stop Listening to Jesus and therefore you would terminate the conversation.

Having said all that, I want you to know that I will not reply to any messages that are not bible related.
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Your message 2007/10/11 1:15.
John 5:16-18

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Jesus worked everyday. Did He break the law?

We are called to follow in Jesus' footsteps. This means "going where He goes, saying what He says, praying what He prays.

In love,

Miccah
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You have claimed that When Jesus said

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."

Jesus then Broke the law. right?
Wrong.

Go back to

John 5:5-9 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?" 7 The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me." 8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.
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Now, what Jesus did was it lawful or unlawful?

I will give you the answer.

Matthew 12:11-14 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13 Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other. 14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.
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Now, if what you claim is right. Jesus would just have told them, The sabbath is no longer binding to anybody, so you can do whatever you want.

Did Jesus say that? no. Why?

Exodus 31:15-17 'Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 'It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "
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How Jesus could possibly break the law that His father and Himself gave to israel as a perpetual covenant, with a sentence punishable by death, should one break it?

If Jesus broke the Law of the sabbath like you and some others are claiming, He just became a sinner. and we know that he never sinned.
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Now, you said God worked so I am working.

I just want you to go back to the ten commandments.

This is the kind of work that we are not suppose to do on the sabbath.

Deuteronomy 5:14-15 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
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When Jesus said:
“My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Cannot in any shape or form be compared with the work that God wants us to rest from.

God's works is something beyond our comprehension and without Him the whole universe would just collapse into nothingness.

Jesus works was to bring the Good news, bring salvation to us all, Healing to the sick.

Luke 13:13-14 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, "There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day."
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Like yourself brother, the ruler of the synagogue regarded Jesus works as being the same as our six day labor.

That is where we disagree,

I do not regard the work of Jesus and the work of the Father as being of any shape of form the same labor that God wants us to rest from, after having done it for six days.

I will not convince you and you will not convince me otherwise, so I guess we will have just to disagree.
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Still on your first message.

by Miccah on 2007/10/11 0:56:59

Quote: """"We are called to follow in Jesus' footsteps. This means "going where He goes, saying what He says, praying what He prays.""""

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I couldn't possible agree with you more on this.

Let me give you an example.

Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
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Are you following His example by going to worship God on the Sabbath as it was His custom?
Are you really following Jesus footsteps?

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Luke 14:2-3 And behold, there was a certain man before Him who had dropsy. 3 And Jesus, answering, spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"

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Why would Jesus ask them that?
If He didn't think there were things that were not lawful to be done on the sabbath. why would he ask them that?
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Are you following Jesus footsteps by doing good on the sabbath?

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Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
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Are you keeping His commandments, and I mean all of them?
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Matthew 19:18-19 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "
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Jesus just mentioned six commandments out of ten from the Ten commandments.

Are you keeping all the Ten? for we know that if you stumble in one you might as well get rid of all of them.

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Matthew 24:19-21 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
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Matthew 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
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Are you also brother fulfilling the law of the Prophets like Jesus did, or are you destroying it?
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Are you praying brother so your flight doesn't happen on the sabbath?

Explain to me why would Jesus ask us to do that, The sabbath is just like any other day.

for this is one of Jesus commandments.
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I could go on forever, but I think I have made my point.

Every single time the pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the sabbath, It was because Jesus was healing someone, doing Good, Doing God's work.

and Jesus the saviour Himself said that it is lawful to do good on the sabbath.

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One more thing.

Mark 1:29-34 Now as soon as they had come out of the synagogue, they entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick with a fever, and they told Him about her at once. 31 So He came and took her by the hand and lifted her up, and immediately the fever left her. And she served them. 32 At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed. 33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door. 34 Then He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.
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When Jesus used to go on the synagogues?

Sabbath.

When does the Sabbath end?

Sunset.

What happened after the sunset?

Mark 1:32-34 At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed. 33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door. 34 Then He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons;
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I have asked you questions before and you just replied with a
Yes or No, If you will say yes or no, at least make a comment on the reason why you say yes or no, and please support your comments with bible texts. Thank you.

Dear brother Micah,

your post of 2007/10/11 23:11

Quote:""""I am sorry if I took things out of context, that was not my intention and I appologize. But the question was given to you for this simple reason. You are cherry picking what you wish to debate about to prove your point. No disrespect intended, but I see this same cherry picking with Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness and other groups. These groups intent is to solely focus on one (or several) areas of scripture without interpreting the scripture together, as it was meant to be interpreted. I am always hesitant to get into a debate with someone who will not look at all relevant scripture for that debate."""""
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Funny you should mention the""You are cherry picking what you wish to debate about to prove your point""

This is preciselly what I have being saying all along.

Jesus said. Keep the commandments.

Matthew 19:18-21 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

He lists six of the Ten,

James again says the same thing.

James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Again the mention of the Ten commandments.

You chose to keep Nine of the Ten, because if you do not keep the other nine brother you have to consider seriously your Christian life. And yet you accuse me of cherry picking.
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Either you keep the Sabbath and the other nine commandments, or you might as well break all the others for if you break one you broke all of them.

James 2:11 you have become a transgressor of the law.
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Quote: """"" If you believe in the Trinity, why so you deny the scripture/s that I was talking about? Jesus worked everyday. Jesus did what He saw the Father do. Jesus tells us to do what He does. Jesus says that "My Father is always working, so I must also.""""
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Of course of believe in the Trinity,

Jesus Himself said,

John 5:19-20 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
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Jesus just openly said that He cannot do anything of Himself, but what He sees the Father do.

Did God rest on the Seventh day?

Is the sabbath Holy to Jesus?

For it is surelly Holy to the Father.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, By the hand of Moses Your servant.

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So, whatever is Holy to the Father must also be Holy to the Son.

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Quote: """You want me to recognize that the Fourth Commandment is the most important commandment.
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Where have I ever said or even infered that there are commandments that are more important than others?

I believe that every commandment that God gave us has the same significance. No commandment is great or smaller, not only that but I also believe that if you decide that one is not important, than you might as well do away with all the other nines.
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Quote:""""I recognize that Jesus' Commandments are the most important Commandments. I recognize that Jesus came and "fulfilled the law".""""

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That is where we disagree,

To me God's Laws, Jesus's Laws and Holy Spirit's laws are one. The same way that the three are one.

You questioned me about believing the Trinity and yet you give them different laws and importance to them.

You said that you recognise Jesus's commandments.
Do you also recoginise God's Commandments? which are the Ten Commandments.
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As I said that is where we disagree brother.

The Ten Comandments are God's law, they also are Jesus's law, and also the Holy Spirit law's.

Jesus Himself talked about six of them.
In mathew 19:15-20
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Quote: """" I recognize that Jesus came and "fulfilled the law"."""

You are falling into contradiction brother.

You just said in your previous message, that Jesus broke the sabbath law, and now you are saying that you recognise that Jesus fulfil the Law.
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Matthew 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
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You are absolutely right to say that Jesus fulfilled the law.

Just before he said that, He made sure that we would understand that the fulfilment of the law by no means meant that the law would be done away. For He says, till heaven and earth pass away, by no means one jot or title of the law would pass away.

But you say that a whole commandment is no longer for us to keep. and yet you say that I am preachin a man's point of view of the scripture.
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Have heaven and earth passed away?
Because if they haven't them the Whole law, with all its jots and titles are there for us to delight ourselves in them.

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Quote:"""""As am I. Jesus says that He is always working because His Father is always working. I try to immolate Jesus at all times. If he says He always works, so must I. """

Brother, If you can compare your works with the works of Jesus, then you are right, you should work seven days of the week.

For Jesus worked(preaching), He worked(Healing),
He worked(bringing people back to life), but his most important work, was the works of savation for us.

Now, if your work is like(office worker, this is just an example), then God has given us a whole day to Rest, to worship Him and remember Him, without having to worry about anything else.
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Quote: """""As believers, we cannot be caught up in the rituals of man. If you live your life as a Christian, everyday is a sabbath day. Every day is a day of rest...in the Lord."""""

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Are you saying that by me preaching the Keeping of the sabbath in accordance with the Ten Commandments, I am preaching rituals of man?

Get real brother, The sabbath was established by God, Do not say that it is a ritual of man.

You are the one promoting something that is not biblical. I have a very clear commandment that tells me how I should keep the sabbath Holy. Do not come and tell me that it is a man ritual.

Come on everybody Am I the only one that Think the Ten commandments are from God? or Do you agree with brother micah that the preaching of the Sabbath is a man ritual?
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Quote:"""""Do you believe what Jesus says? The Pharisees questioned Jesus on this as well. They tried to corner Him into this arguement, very similar like you are trying to corner those who disagree with you."""""
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Brother this is an open debate, If you are feeling corned please accept my apologies for this is not the intention.

You say that Jesus was cornered several times by the pharised. So How come He never openly said, forget the sabbath, God does not care about it anymore.

Why didn't He do that?

I tell you why, Because the Sabbath was so important to Him as it was for the Father. So much so that He called Himself the Lord of that very day. He callled Himself the Lord of the Sabbath.

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I Quoted:""""He Said, six days you shall labor, but the seventh day no work shall be done.

Very simple and clear."""""

Then you quoted:""I disagree. I feel that it is cherry picking commandments."""
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What sort of answer is this? (cherry picking commandments.)

This is the fourth commandment brother,

a perpetual covenant.
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Quote:"""""I need to ask you something. What does the Lord tell you about this when you pray about it? You don't have to answer here, but just to you and the Lord. If He leads you to keep the Sabbath as a full day of rest, then I say follow what the Lord is telling you to do. He is NOT telling me to do the same. He talks to people differently, He may be talking to you differently then me. All I know is that I follow what the Lord tells me to do. Call it what you will, but He has not lead me a stray and will not lead me a stray.
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What does the Lord Tells me about this?

The sabbath is Holy. it is all over the bible, there promises and special blessings for those who keep the sabbath.
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Quote: """He is NOT telling me to do the same. He talks to people differently, He may be talking to you differently then me. All I know is that I follow what the Lord tells me to do. Call it what you will, but He has not lead me a stray and will not lead me a stray.""""
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The word of God brother is enough to guide you to eternal life. there is just one way, His way.

One fact reamains, We cannot both be right.

One thing the bible tells me.

People died for breaking it.
Israel suffered famine, pestilence, were sent into captivity because they did not heed to the very commandment that a lot of people disregard.
For the same reason, God called them a rebellious people.

Look what samuel says about Rebellion.

1 Samuel 15:22-23 Then Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king."

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WE know for a fact that Israel was called rebellious because of the sabbath.

Please be very sure about this, for being rebellious and stubborn can have serious consequences.

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I hope I have answered all your question but if not please do ask them again.

Dear brother Micah.

I asked you a question.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment. 39 "And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
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My question to you was,

What these great commandments are about?
and what is the Law and the prophets that Jesus is talking about?
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This was your answer.

This is Hugh. Respectfully, pray on this. Research this. This is the key to your question/s about the Sabbath. I cannot give you the revelation that must come from this verse. you must have this revelation yourself. Pray.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What's up with that?
What sort of answer is this?
If you don't have an answer, just come clean and say it.

Do you know the answer or not?

Brother Miccah.

Let's address this message from you.

Quote:""""This debate of the Sabbath sounds very similar to the debate of KJV only arguements. In fact, I can almost see jamye's position more on this issue then on the KJV issue. Both arguements are taking what man's interpretation of scripture and how it should be read and interpreting it as such.""""
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You totally lost me brother. What does Sabbath keeping debate has to do with KJV debate?

What is the relevance of your point.

I would love to know what you really meant by writing this message.
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Quote:""""No where in scripture does it read "KJV only". But scripture does talk about the Sabbath day.""""

I have read your message a dozen times and cannot understand the purpose of it. Are you being critical to what version of bible I use?

Which by the way is not KJV, you got it wrong brother, If that is what you mean. I use the NKJ version. But I still don't see the relevance of this message.

Could you please help me with this one?

Dear brother Miccah.

Quote: """"I have given you biblical answers to your arguement. I feel I have successfully rebuted your replies per what the Lord has lead me to say. I don't know what more I can say to you besides the truth that has already been spoken. """"
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How have you accomplished that?

You have quote one verse in John that says that Jesus works and God works, It doesn't change the fact that God commanded us to Keep His day holy.

God's Works and Jesus works are things that you and I cannot even contemplate brother, it is far beyong our comprehension.

All throughout the scripture, I see clearly that the Sabbath is very much a blessing for all who wants to accept it.
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I have a couple of verses for you to comment.

Isaiah 56:1-2 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
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Comment on this.
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Isaiah 56:6-7 " Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants -- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant -- 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer

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Comment on this
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Isaiah 58:13-14 " If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, 14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."
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Comment on this.
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Isaiah 66:22-23 " For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
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comment on this.
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Matthew 24:20-22 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
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Comment on this
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Acts 16:12-13 and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.
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Comment on this.
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Acts 13:42-44 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
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Comment on this.
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I could go on forever.

Does your text in john Nullifies all of this.

Absolutely not.

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Quote:"""""I still await your reply of my question of "When you pray, what does the Lord say to you about this subject." I may have missed it..."""""

You should read your message again brother, you asked me not to reply but to answer to myself.

But I will answer to you here if that is what you want.

If the Lord hadn't revealed this to me as something important, Do you think I would spend hours in front of this computer resoning with you all just for the fun of being argumentative? I think not.
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Quote: """""I honestly grieve that one day you will need to explain to the Lord why you felt it necessary to lead people astray. But I guess you don't see it this way, so what does it matter what I think? I will answer to the Lord for my sins, not anyone elses. """""

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Let me put it this way for you brother.

The keeping of the sabbath has been preached all throught the scripture. If on the day of judgment God calls my name and says, Jayme, why did you preach the Sabbath and kept it Holy?

My answer to Him will be.

You said yourself Lord.
Isaiah 58:13-14 If I turned away my foot from the Sabbath, From doing my pleasure on Your holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing My own ways, Nor finding my own pleasure, Nor speaking my own words, 14 Then I would delight myself in the LORD; And You would cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth.

Also Lord, you said.

Isaiah 56:3-6 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree." 4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, 5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off. 6 " Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants -- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant.

If I did not have to keep the Sabbath, then I did everything just like you and still went one step further, if I did not have to keep the sabbath and I did, I cannot see that as being a sin.
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Now my question to you brother is,
What if you had to keep the Sabbath and you didn't?

What will you tell God when you stand judgment and He asks you why you did not keep His Sabbaths?

If we both didn't have to keep the Sabbath

(and I say keep because that is how we all refer to it, but I have a delight about the sabbath, is my favourite day of the week, To me the sabbath is a total blessing, could not live my life without it.

Then I am pretty sure I have not done anything wrong by keeping it.

But if we both had to keep it, and I am one 100% sure that we do, Then brother you will be the one with a lot of explaning to do?
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The difference brother between us is this. I am open to change my mind should you prove me wrong, quote a bible text that proves to me, without a shadow of a dout, and I will change. But I will not jeopardize my salvation on account of man's interpretation. You, in the other hand, have one thing in mind and it is to prove that I am wrong and when you cannot answer my questions you say.

Brother pray about this one, you will have to get the revelation of this one yourself.
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God bless you brother Miccah, and I pray for you as well.

I have revised all your messages and answered all your questions.

Now I think you have quite a few answers to give me. I have quoted you quite a bit of scripture, it would be interesting to know your comments on them.

Please do not disapear. and God bless you all.

Dear brother Christinyou.

I quoted: """Could you please make up your mind,
You said that Jesus broke the law of the SAbbath by not keeping it.
Now you say that He kept the whole law.
Now which one is it?
The other thing, you claimed that Jesus was killed for not keeping the Sabbath. Could you show me the text that proves your claim?""""

Is this post the answer to this question?

you quoted:

Both, Jayme, since He was Lord of the Sabbath, He could do what He wanted on the Sabbath. He made the Sabbath a wonderful day of the heart, not the keeping of the Law. So we can use every day as the Sabbath in keeping our Love which He has given us to rest in Him and worship from the heart not from obligation to the Law.
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I am not asking you what he could or could not have done. but what He did.

You claimed that He broke the law of the sabbath. and therefore was killed, prove it to me. give me the texts that back up your claim.

There is no such a text, for if there were, then Jesus would have sinned and lied for he said that he did not come to destroy, but the fulfil the law, and heaven and earth would pass before a jot would be taken away of the law.

I am not sure brother but I don't think heaven and earth have passed away. so, I am pretty sure that the whole law is still there to guide us.

God Bless.

jayme wrote:
Dear sister Intens4Him,

On the last part of your post you wrote something that I wanted to addres separately.

Quote:"""""If you'll remember when Jesus rose from the dead, it says that many of the saints and/or prophets were seen walking in Jerusalem. So this means that those people, great as they were in the Lord still couldn't keep the law and were directly to hell."""""
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Please where did you get this idea?
You are the first person ever to say, that saints were sent to Hell?

Please do clarify this for me. Are you talking about Matthew 27:51-53

Because if you are, There is nothing in here that would indicate that saints were sent to Hell at all, or that they could not keep the law.

Dear sister, if Saints and prophets are being sent to Hell, What God do you serve?

For the God I serve would never sent a saint to Hell.

Here is the text from matthew.

Matthew 27:51-54 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
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If this is not the text, then please send it to me, for I would love to see how you got to the idea that saints were sent to hell.

I don't expect a reply. for there is no way, God would send saints and prophets to hell. For Hell is not a place for saints but for unrepented sinners.

Brother, you can most always expect an answer from me except 1. if I think you are wanting an argument and have an unquenchable need to win. I won't answer then but you have NOT shown yourself to be that to me at all. 2. Oh and if I don't get on the computer because between sons and work, I don't get on it that often!!

Back to the matter at hand!! I looked and looked for that Scripture before I posted and yes, you are correct it is Matthew 27.51-54 and another yes, I was wrong in quoting it, it was out of context. I should have looked it up and not used my memory!! I just knew it came from when he went to hell to preach but I was wrong! Had I looked it up first, I wouldn't be joyfully eating crow right now!! At least I'm not apt to forget it again!! LOLOL

I believe that the commandments that Christ talked about were all boiled down to the two he gave, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself." Because "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matt 22.40)

You quoted Matthew 19.17-21 but Christ was speaking to a good Jewish boy who actually did keep all the commandments AND YET he still lacked.

One last question, I'm not a big debater over "doctrine" and such, well I'm not a big debater, period!! You said you keep the Sabbath by choice, which is ok by me but are you actually saying that if I or anyone else does not keep the Sabbath in this day and time that our salvation is in jeopardy?

Dear Sister thank you for your message.

It is a pleasure to find people such as yourself to talk about the scripture. I can see that you, like me, are not afraid to admit when you make a mistake. If I make a mistake sister I will own up to it.
I am here on this site challenging my beliefs more than anything else. I do not know all the answers by no means, but I am willing to discuss whatever you might say that can bring edification to my life.
I have said this before, If you can prove to me biblicly and without a shadow of a doubt that the sabbath is not longer binding, I will accept it and will turn my ways.

I am not here to win or to lose arguments. You go to some of the forums and people are arguing personal views and that is not my intention.

Now back to the matter at hand.
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Quote:"""""I believe that the commandments that Christ talked about were all boiled down to the two he gave, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself." Because "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets""""""
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You are one hundred per cent right. But when we say boiled down, what do we really mean with it?

To me there is irrefutable proof that Jesus is talking about the Ten commandments. Not only He talks about it but He clearly said that the keeping of the commandments are directly related to our salvation.

I will show you why I believe this. And please if you see it differently, I would very much appreciate your comments.
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In Deuteronomy 5. Moses remember Israel of the Ten commandments.

In chapter 6 Moses like Jesus also talks about the Greatest commandment.

Deuteronomy 6:4-6 " Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. 6 " And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.

Keep in mind that Moses had just reviewed the Ten commandment to Israel.

Please if you had the time read the first 10 chapter of Deuteronomy. but if not read chapter
10:12-22.

The NKJ, descibes these verses as being the essence of the law(Ten Commandments)
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Now I know that both moses and Jesus regarded the greatest commandments as being the Same.

Moses.

Deuteronomy 6:4-6 " Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. 6 " And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.

Jesus.

Matthew 22:37-38 7 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.

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It tells me that Moses and Jesus agreed on the same thing.
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Remember that Moses talked about the greatest commandments just after reviewing the Ten commandment to Israel.

Now my question to you is.

I know that the greatest commandment is to love my God, But How do I love Him with all my heart and with all my soul?

You will find the asnwer to this question on the first four commandments.

No other Gods.
No images.
No taking His name is vain.
keeping the Sabbath.

You might say: the other three commandments I agree that they show me how to love God. but...

Keeping the Sabbath? what does that have to do with loving God?

Well, I can only say one thing. It was Holy unto the Lord, and like everything else that is Holy unto Him, He is serious about it.
So much so, that the same penalty for having other Gods, blaspheming God and carving images was applied to those who broke the Sabbath. We know that the penalty for these were Death.

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The second Greatest commandments that Jesus mentioned talks about how we relate to our brother and sisters or if you prefer our neighbour or enemies, you can choose. For Jesus said that we have to treat our neighbours and enemies the same way, with love.
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How do I do this.

the other six commandments talk about how we should relate to them.

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I have asked people before and never got an answer. What is this law and prophets that Jesus summarized in these two great laws?

Well here is what I think it is.

Matthew 5:17-19 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:12-14 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. 13 " Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Luke 16:16-17 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

It is clear to me sister, that Heaven and earth will pass before the Ten commandments becomes The Nine Commanndments.

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Quote: """"You quoted Matthew 19.17-21 but Christ was speaking to a good Jewish boy who actually did keep all the commandments AND YET he still lacked.
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Dear sister, You mentined the fact that the Jew boy was good. Why do you say that He was good? Jeus was so humble that not even He considered Himself to be good but only the Father. Was Jesus good? Most definetely yes. Not only Good but Holy.

but there is one thing that the Jew boy was just like the rest of Us. He wanted to be saved, just like the Rest of Us. Is salvation for the Jew any different than for Us? I do not believe so. For Jesus gave Him the perfect recipe for salvation. I often wonder why would Jesus tell the young boy to keep the commandments. Jesus knew His heart, unless the boy was breaking one of the commandments and Jesus wanted to point this out to Him, but when He says

Matthew 19:20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"

did Jesus rebuked Him, no. why? I believe that He was telling the truth, otherwise Jesus would have rebuked Him.

And Jesus goes on and listed Six of the ten Commandments leaving out the four first, which I believe are the ones that are part of the first greatest commandment.

But we know that the young man lacked something, and when you don't have Jesus in your life, you will always lack something and the young boy new it. Even with all his riches and his high positions, He still lacked the real thing.

What does Jesus tell him?

Sell everything you have, and follow me.
This tells me without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus told him to put his faith in Him.

Follow me, and you will not lack anything else.
Give your life to me and you will be made whole.

But remember what Jesus said about riches?

We cannot serve God and riches at the same time. and unfortunatelly the Boy chose the things that will never make anyone whole. he chose the what the world had to offer to Him.
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To me sister, This is the perfect recipe for Salvation.

Faith in Christ, to the point of selling everything and following Him.

And keeping His commandments. All of them, not only nine.

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Quote:"""" You said you keep the Sabbath by choice""""
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Dear sister, I don't remember saying that, but if I did then I apologise, what I meant was.

God gave us commandments and statutes to live by them. To israel they were the ministration of Death as some like to quote it this way. Why? Because God told them you either keep them or you will die.

Were the Ten commandments written and engraven in stones the ministration of Death? Yes. if you so chose not to obey them. but if you chose to obey them, God says that you could not count the blessings that I will send to you.

Now, Read this.

James 1:25-27 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

I am under the law of liberty, Should you choose to disobey the Ten commandments you will not be put to death. But we know that breaking the law is sin.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What I am trying to tell you is that, I have the liberty to choose. Right or wrong I can choose. One fact remains, with my choice comes either a reward or a consequence.

I hope I made my point clear.
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Quote:"""" which is ok by me but are you actually saying that if I or anyone else does not keep the Sabbath in this day and time that our salvation is in jeopardy? """"

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dear sister, you make me sound like I have come up with all of these. and I have not.

As I said your choice will bring you a reward or a consequence, why do I say this?

We know that Israel was God's chosen People. Fact
we know that they were disobedient. Fact
We know that because they did not kept the Sabbath, They suffered terribly, God punished them severelly for that.

My question to you is. Do you see this?

Do you recognize that Israel was punished for not keeping the Sabbath?

Has God changed? what was important to Him back then, is it no longer important now?

Now we know that because Israel did not keep God's Laws, God called them a stiff necked people. Rebellious people, stubborn people, and so on..

I want to take you to a verse in Samuel, look what samuel describes these words.

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king."

Dear sister, this is a serious thing.

You have to ask yourself.

by not keeping the Sabbath, Am I being rebellious or stubborn?

We know that God said Israel was for doing the very same thing?

Samuel said that Rebellion is the same sin as witchcraft and stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry.

This is very serious indeed, My logic tells me that if I am rebellious it is the same as if I was practicing witchcraft. and if I am stubborn I am practicing idolatry.

And we all know How God hates that.
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By not keeping the sabbath do you put your salvation in jeopardy?

I think that the question you should be asking is.

By not keeping the Sabbath does it make me rebellious in God's eyes?

Does it make me a stubborn person?

To answer that sister you have to go to the bible and search why God called israel rebellious and stubborn.

Paul said.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
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God bless you sister and please do write back at your convenience.

May the desire of seeking His face never departs from our hearts.

Dear brother Miccah,
Your arguments are based in what you think is right or wrong. you write and yet avoid the Questions I ask you.
As my brother, I love you, but I think that you are just being argumentative, and I said this before I will not go down this road.

I have just one more thing to tell you.
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Quote:"""You are partially correct. I do not wish to prove you wrong, only to open your eyes that will not see. But, I do wish to warn others of your false teaching of salvation. And lets face it, this is what you are preaching to myself and others here. Your arguement is about the Sabbath and how it should be kept. If it is not kept in this way (by everyone), everyone not keeping your Sabbath are walking in sin, thus our salvvation is in jepardy. This IS a false teaching, and I will not accept it.""""
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Brother This is what my preaching is about,or rather Jesus preaching.
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This is no me talking but Jesus, Please do not say that His preaching is false.

If you want to enter into eternal life, this is how it is done.

Matthew 19:17-21 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
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Salvation comes by following Christ and keeping His commandments. nothing more nothing less.

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Brother this is a forum discussing the new day of worship. Sunday.

I am only deffending what I believe is right. I am not trying to convince anybody of anything. It is not my job to convince anybody, this is the work of the Holy Spirit.

But I will not just sit back and see something being said that I believe is not right. The same right that you have to voice your beliefs so have I.

I have never passed judgment on anybody's preaching here. I have always written and based my answers on the bible.

If you think I am wrong, prove me wrong. but don't come and say that my preaching is false. for there is just one judge and law giver, God.

I have written to you extensively, I would love to see your comments on things supported by bible texts.
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I will give you an example of how you avoid a direct question.

I asked you about the law and the prophets.

you answered:

Miccah wrote: This is Hugh. Respectfully, pray on this. Research this. This is the key to your question/s about the Sabbath. I cannot give you the revelation that must come from this verse. you must have this revelation yourself. Pray.

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When I asked you again you quoted this.

It is an honest question to a man that says he follows Gods commandments. What is the first thing that we are instructed to do? Pray.

Then you answer by talking about prayer.

I know about prayer. What I want to know from you is.

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What is the law and the prophets that Jesus said refers to?
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You turned this into a prayer argument.

I know all about prayer brother.

Quote:"""I have an answer, and my answer is you are wrong, and praying to the Lord will lead you to a deeper revelation of why you are wrong. """"
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that is it? I am wrong?

according to your answer, I believe what I believe because I do not pray. and If I pray more at some point it will all become clear to me that what I preach is all wrong.

yeah, nice going.

If I am wrong than prove me wrong, don't just pass judgement on what I believe.

And for your info, my prayer life is very healthy thank you.

Dear jayme,

Thank you for your response to my post.

I do understand that originally the Sabbath was the seventh day without fail, but even then there were provisions for certain emergencies which might fall on a Sabbath.

One of the things which Jesus did, was to expose the hypocrisy of the religious leaders, who, if it was something to do with money (such as a unit of livestock) which was endangered, had no problem with the necessary rescue, but when it was a man - the ones created in the image of God Himself - they didn't mind if he carried on suffering for the rest of his life. This is the basis of your acceptance of 'doing good' on the Sabbath, and of course, I agree to it.

But, Jesus also said, when challenged over allowing his disciples to pluck the ears of wheat as they passed through a field, that 'the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath'. (Mark 2:27) In other words, the higher creation is man, not the Sabbath. So if anything is going to give, it is the Sabbath, not man. This is a similar message received from God through His written word on many other points: that if anything is going to give, it is man, not God.

Therefore, when Phillip (Christinyou) explains in the post above, how Christ is in us, this is the Son who entered into rest [i][b]forever[/i][/b] after His work on the cross. This is the new standard of rest, into which God Himself has entered. The seventh day was a picture for us, as we are bound by time while we are on earth in a mortal body.

But, as 'the word of God is not bound' by putting a person in prison, neither is the Spirit bound by our physical bodies. The Holy Spirit brings to the believer that eternal rest into which Christ has entered.

We can, of course, receive the Spirit within, only as we acknowledge our sin and receive Christ's death. This also is our eternal rest (from bondage to sin).

In fact, this is the key to understanding why there were certain things not to be done on the Sabbath. Those things were not sins necessarily, as they would be done on other days of the week. But, one thing from which man was always to abstain, was sin. However, as the many sacrifices under the Old Covenant demonstrated, which were always in-the-face of the ordinary Israelite as his conscience pricked him to bring another offering to God when it was necessary, so the Old Covenant sacrificial system also proved that men's hearts could not be changed.... until.... Pentecost.

Paul explained how this is to affect the believer, in Romans 6. I would like you to read the whole chapter, with these things in mind, but particularly I will quote from near the end of the chapter:

17 But God be thanked that [i]though[/i] you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 [b]And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness[/b].
19 I speak in human [i]terms[/i] because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members [i]as[/i] slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness [i]leading[/i] to [i]more[/i] lawlessness, [b]so now present your members [i]as[/i] slaves [i]of[/i] righteousness for [u]holiness[/u][/b]. (NKJV)

So you see, your emphasis on the necessity of holiness is fully taken care of under the New Covenant, because the Holy Spirit causes us to become [i]slaves[/i] of righteousness.

How?

Here is one place that the answer is clear:

1 Corinthians 1 (KJV)
and [God has chosen] things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 [b]But of him are ye in Christ Jesus[/b], who of God is made unto us wisdom, and [u]righteousness[/u], and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Please notice in v 28, that God has chosen things that 'are not' to bring to nothing 'things that are' and notice the purpose is to glorfiy God fully, not depending on the flesh to do so.

I put it to you, therefore, that one of the things which scripture is clear was abolished, was the Old Covenant, [i]because[/i] through it sins could never be forgiven; they were covered only. Now, the thing that [u]was not[/u], namely [b]our righteousness before God[/b], has been brought into being by the faith of Christ, and by our believing Him.

What our faith entails though, is not just believing that Jesus Christ came as a man and after His death was raised again, but we accept the reason for His death and we acknowledge our part in its necessity and we repent from sin forever, and enter into judgement upon ourselves as sinners worthy of death. Only then, can His resurrection become our resurrection. Only then does the life of God through the Holy Spirit become the enlivening force in our flesh, assisting us to put to death the remnants of sinful thought and behaviour.

And God hasn't done all this so that we can put our feet up or work for a charity on the seventh day of each week (if we don't have a job which requires our attendance then), but so that we can rest from sin and condemnation twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. Do you see that?

He Himself, the sinless One, comes to abide in us, if we abide in Him. And, His Father also comes that we might be one in Them (John 17:21 - 23), as Christ, whose Father is in Him, is in us. This spiritual reality comes to dominate the life of a believer, that we may walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4), living in the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, bearing fruit of the Spirit, edifying the body of Christ on earth through the gifts of the Spirit. This is the true Church, which Peter and Paul both describe: Eph 1:15 - 23, Eph 2:13 - 22, 1 Pet 2:1 - 10, 2 Cor 3 esp v 18 'But we all...', Heb 10 esp v 1 and 39.

So you now see that the law of love (James 2:8 - 13) has come to dominate the life of believers, and to help them interpret what is relevant from the Old Covenant to retain. It is obvious the stonings to death need not be retained, since Christ died instead, and it is obvious that the animal sacrifices need not be retained, since Christ sacrificed Himself for the sin of the world (John 1:29 - 39).

Christ also made other announcements, such as the new term under which a divorce could be granted, as well as announcing that the kingdom of heaven was near by the many great works He did, which show us how the Holy Spirit is intended to change [i]our[/i] lives, if we receive [u]Him[/u].

His explanation of changes to the sabbath law, is most interesting. Not only does He justify David's authority in God's house though he was not a priest (Acts 13:22), but He draws in His descendency from David by way of accentuating His greater authority as [i]the Son of God[/i].

Mark 2
23 And it came to pass--he is going along on the sabbaths through the corn-fields--and his disciples began to make a way, plucking the ears,
24 and the Pharisees said to him, `Lo, why do they on the sabbaths that which is not lawful?
25 And he said to them, `Did ye never read what David did, when he had need and was hungry, he and those with him?
26 how he went into the house of God, (at `Abiathar the chief priest,') and the loaves of the presentation did eat, which it is not lawful to eat, except to the priests, and he gave also to those who were with him?'
27 And he said to them, `The sabbath for man was made, not man for the sabbath,
28 [b]so that[/b] [u]the son of man [b]is lord also of the sabbath[/b][/u].' (Young's Literal Translation)

(Matt 12:41, Luke 11:31, John 4:12, 25, 26, 8:53 - 59, 10:29)

Now we have the Lord of the Sabbath residing within us, we are justified in resting from certain outward ordinances, [b]as [u]He[/u] did[/b].

Regarding the clarification you asked for from my post on p3, if it is still required, please quote the part you wish me to clarify. Thanks.

Dear Dorcas, Thank you again for your post.

I have a few question for you.

(Old Covenant and New covenant.)

We know that there was an Old and that there is a new covenant, right?
My question to you is.

Does this New Covenant, substitute and nullifies all covenants given by God?

If your answer is No, then Please could you point out what is this Old covenant that the new substitute and give me the texts supporting your answer.

If your answer is yes. Then

We know God had a covenant with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Israel(nation) to name a few.
In Fact with Israel, He had more than One covenant.

We also know that The sabbath was a covenant on its own.

Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

My question to you is. This Old covenant that no longer has any value to us. Does the covenant of the Sabbath is included in this Old covenant?

does the new covenant, nullifies what God established as Perpetual?

Now, you might say that the Covenant of the Sabbath was for the children of Israel, and I agree with you, but there is one thing, So is the new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
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And here is Paul saying the same thing.

Hebrews 8:8-10 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
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Now, I have not found in my bible where it says that God made a covenant for us Gentiles. But He gave a new covenant to the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

The other question I have for you is this.

Both in Jeremiah and in Hebrews, God says that He is going to put His laws in our hearts.

What are these laws?
I know that The Ten commandments are God's laws,
Jesus talks about the Ten Commandments.

Luke 18:19-22 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

I believe that the law God is talking about is the Ten commandments.

Now, Paul says that through my faith in Christ, I am a partaker of the promises.

So this is what I believe,

When I accepted Christ in my life as my only saviour and after being baptized, I was born again. Not of the Flesh but of the Spirit.
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The new Covenant by no means nullifies the Ten Commandments. And by no means nullify the Sabbath for the SAbbath is a covenant on its own and it is a perpetual covenant.

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Now, My understanding of the old and new covenant is this.

Let's see what the new covenant is all about.
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Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
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Mark 14:22-24 2 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

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Luke 22:19-20 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
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we have three descriptions of the New Covenant.

It has nothing to do with the Moral Law(Ten Commandments).

Here Pauls talks about the Old and new covenant.

Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --
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I ask you, why the first covenant was not considered faultless?

For this reason.

Hebrews 7:22-28 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
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and Again.

Hebrews 9:1-28 hen indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people's sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience -- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another -- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
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Brother one thing I believe.

At the day of judgement we will be judged in accordance with God's Law. If the Ten commandments were done away, based on what is God going to declare some saved and other lost?

The other question is,

If the Ten commandments are no longer valid, what is the ark of the covenant doing in the heavenly temple?

I am pretty sure that you know what is inside of the ark of the covenant.

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

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This is my comments on Old and new covenants.

I will try to comment on your last message later today.

God bless.

Dear jayme,

To answer briefly your end-of-post question about the Ten Commandments, I have never suggested that they were done away.

The New Covenant does not make that claim, nor do I on its behalf.

In fact, the New Covenant challenges believers to keep the sabbath to a new and [i][b]higher[/i][/b] standard.

In this thread, you are being challenged on your way of keeping the sabbath, because it is the [i][b]Old Covenant[/i][/b] sabbath you espouse, adjusted to acknowledge Christ in a measure, but not in fulness. I cannot judge how far from fulness.

You mention the day of judgement, and how we will be judged for our law-keeping. Yes. Both Jesus and Paul address this in their declamations, pointing us to the perfection which is in Christ, and the keeping of the New Covenant with Him.

You see, unless a believer has [u]died[/u] to sin (in Him) he cannot be credited with Christ's righteousness, nor can His righteousness be imparted to him by grace through faith. Nor can he be credited, therefore with having kept the [u]new sabbath of rest in Christ[/u], to that (New Covenant) standard which Christ [i]freely[/i] imparts.

Those keeping the sabbath to a variation of the Old Covenant remain dead in sin by default of not being [u]New Covenant[/u] keepers. They will be judged on that basis.

I do not say this lightly, and it sounds harsh; but dying to sin [i]is[/i] harsh and yet it is the door to rest in Christ, our Lord of the Sabbath.