Quoting scripture?

Hi all

I've started reading the "moral Government" thread, and was struck by the comment that Finney quoted Scripture very little at the beginning.

Many earnest Christians (as I have seen in discussions here) are unwilling to accept what anyone says unless they back it up with chapter and verse. Fair enough; our faith is based on what the Bible says, and the main test for error is whether something is clearly taught in Scripture or not.

If we are debating an issue, or seeking proof for or against a particular teaching, then appeals to the Word are right and proper.

Yet, while that is good, I wonder if it can sometimes be taken too far? We sometimes seem so concerned about being "Bereans" that we miss the heart of the matter, and get bogged down in endless wranglings over finer points of doctrine. Or using the Word to fight each other!

The Word of God is [u]far more[/u] than words on a page, however correct, true and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

And often a mature believer (such as Finney) has the Scriptures so embedded in his mind and heart that he [i]knows[/i] what it says without having to quote it word for word every time.

Does that mean he is necessarily in error because he neglects to give us chapter and verse?

Some posts do give the impression that that is the case.

I find more and more these days that thoughts flow more in the form of "narrative" - paraphrasing or summarising what I believe the Bible says - rather than quoting verbatim.

Of course, the Bible is the final authority, and it is important to check that the summary or paraphrase is an accurate expression of the essence of Truth as revealed in Scripture. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong to do this...

Any comments?

Jeannette

PS I can't comment on Finney himself because of having read very little of his writings. This is just about the general principle - the Finney thread was merely a jumping off point for this question.

Hello Jeannette,

I am of the school that we test the spirits by the Word of God. There are many sound alikes, that you find if you follow, sounding good, will lead you away from the Cross and our Life In Christ.

The Word, if used properly is to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ, illuminated by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher who leads us into all truth.

Jesus said, My Sheep hear My Voice, and a strangers voice they will not hear.

Hebrews 10:22, our bodies washed with PURE water. We have a PURE Conscience, Revelation 22:1 says ....a PURE river of Water.

Jesus said, if you abide in me and MY WORDS abide in you......

So, I'm of the School that says, if it didn't grow that way...don't eat it.

Jesus Lived by every word of God, and when being tested by Satan for 40 days in the wilderness, Satan could also use scripture itself, twisting it to use in trying to bring Jesus to disobey and worship him.

Scripture teaches scripture, and it is so vitally important, as Jesus so clearly demonstrated when Satan used scripture, that Jesus quoted other scripture to refute Satan , knowing where Satan was trying to lead Him......away from the Cross. (He's still in that business today...leading away from the cross....manipulating scripture as does WOF and many others)

Hebrews says, mature Christians have BEEN EXERCISED to discern between good and evil. We are equipped, through the WORD OF GOD, and exercised moving on to maturity to quickly spot error....however someone may base their statements on feelings and sentiment.

One such example was on the Tongues Thread by Psalms 1, talking about the poor people in Mexico, stating Doctrine is like water that just runs out of their hands (and that Doctrine was not important throwing HIS own personal opinion into the hat as what is best for others) ....Does he KNOW this for a FACT or is this just his personal opinion? With opinions as that, one can come to several conclusions:

1.Poor people are Stupid

2.Poor People have more need for food then sound doctrine.

Well, the test of that truth and principle is found in John 6. Yes, Jesus did feed the multitude, and they came back for more....but when Jesus questioned them, "do you want the bread or do you want Me", Jesus also stating what it was to follow Him, .....they said it was too hard, and turned away. He asked the others if they would BETRAY Him too. (Doctrine HERE was vitally important to Jesus)

I do think so much of the strife on these threads are actually about this very issue. However we may not have actually pin pointed this culpret until you stated it most clearly on this thread.

When finding yourself in strife on the threads, one must ask first, are you going by the Written Word of God, or just paraphrasing out of your own understanding, not yet come into maturity, knowing how to test the spirits to see where it will led you.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

ADDED for content

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and [b][color=CC0000]FOR THE WORD OF GOD[/color][/b], and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue53.htm

poet wrote:
Im going through it right now with my church demonation.
Prayerfully, we come to realise that we will never be able to completely understand all scripture, for all times and all people.
The pharisees of Jesus time thought they had it all figured out and missed the spirit of scripture, and doctrine.
Many of their beliefs became extra biblical and so they missed the giver of life when he came to them.

Me personally, I dont agree with Finney at every level. "But" He loved God, and was used by God, and many who heard Finney were brought under conviction and were saved.

Also personally if someone is writing a book, and they dont give scripture and source material to promote their findings, I throw it away because If I cant confirm what they teach, then how do I know im drinking cool-aid or not.

It's ok to discuss a teaching and debate teachings but remember the spirit of it all, we bare each other, borebare, patient, love, and kind. were on the same team trying to edify each other and answer each others questions.
I no longer will bash a person, but can make righteous judgments on what they teach.
Will I share my findings to everyone who I come in contact with or will I quietly just get away from bad teaching and pray for those who listen to it?
I could be wrong about bad teaching and figure that out a year later. But now I've told 20 people that I have to find and appoligize for it.
It takes discernment to know what to speak out against and when to just chew your tongue off.
:-)

And yet there is a time to speak out too.

Blessings

Jeannette

Katy-did wrote:
Hello Jeannette,

You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying (as I rather expected some folk to do):-P

In fact I agree 100% with just about ALL you said!

I am of the school that we test the spirits by the Word of God. There are many sound alikes, that you find if you follow, sounding good, will lead you away from the Cross and our Life In Christ.

The Word, if used properly is to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ, illuminated by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher who leads us into all truth.

Jesus said, My Sheep hear My Voice, and a strangers voice they will not hear.

Hebrews 10:22, our bodies washed with PURE water. We have a PURE Conscience, Revelation 22:1 says ....a PURE river of Water.

Jesus said, if you abide in me and MY WORDS abide in you......

So, I'm of the School that says, if it didn't grow that way...don't eat it.

Jesus Lived by every word of God, and when being tested by Satan for 40 days in the wilderness, Satan could also use scripture itself, twisting it to use in trying to bring Jesus to disobey and worship him.

Scripture teaches scripture, and it is so vitally important, as Jesus so clearly demonstrated when Satan used scripture, that Jesus quoted other scripture to refute Satan , knowing where Satan was trying to lead Him......away from the Cross. (He's still in that business today...leading away from the cross....manipulating scripture as does WOF and many others)

Hebrews says, mature Christians have BEEN EXERCISED to discern between good and evil. We are equipped, through the WORD OF GOD, and exercised moving on to maturity to quickly spot error....however someone may base their statements on feelings and sentiment.

One such example was on the Tongues Thread by Psalms 1, talking about the poor people in Mexico, stating Doctrine is like water that just runs out of their hands (and that Doctrine was not important throwing HIS own personal opinion into the hat as what is best for others) ....Does he KNOW this for a FACT or is this just his personal opinion?

We all come to the Lord first as babies, knowing almost nothing. Like the man born blind (John 9) who, at first, didn't even know clearly who Jesus was, but stuck stubbornly to what he did know, "Once I was blind, now I see". But even the most truly saved "babe" in Christ has to grow into a "man in Christ" - neglect of the Scriptures will inevitably lead to error.

In my introductory post I was referring only to those who already know the Bible very well, and are mature in faith, not to those who are babes in Christ. Of course babies need teaching - intensive feeding, growing, instructing, until they become mature enough to feed themselves on the Word, so that it becomes a part of them.

When such a person is well taught, really knows the Lord, and is walking with Him, he can mostly discern truth from error, rather than being "tossed about with every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians). Such a one will now be mature enough to search the scriptures for himself - and to ask the Lord if he is still uncertain.

With opinions as that, one can come to several conclusions:

1.Poor people are Stupid

2.Poor People have more need for food then sound doctrine.

Well, the test of that truth and principle is found in John 6. Yes, Jesus did feed the multitude, and they came back for more....but when Jesus questioned them, "do you want the bread or do you want Me", Jesus also stating what it was to follow Him, .....they said it was too hard, and turned away. He asked the others if they would BETRAY Him too. (Doctrine HERE was vitally important to Jesus)

I do think so much of the strife on these threads are actually about this very issue. However we may not have actually pin pointed this culpret until you stated it most clearly on this thread.

Sorry you've lost me here! :-?

When finding yourself in strife on the threads, one must ask first, are you going by the Written Word of God, or just paraphrasing out of your own understanding, not yet come into maturity, knowing how to test the spirits to see where it will led you.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

ADDED for content

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and [b][color=CC0000]FOR THE WORD OF GOD[/color][/b], and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue53.htm

But you seemed to think I was saying the opposite! :-?

Love in Him

Jeannette

Good morning Jeannette,

I didn't disagree with anything you said.

But I read your first post as a question that could have been understood or even mis-understood by some depending on how they processed the question at hand.

I would have gladly put all of John 6 as a reference without ***highlighting*** the Chapter subject. So I guess it's a matter of semantics....I say Highlight, you say Para-phrase. I think of paraphrasing as giving generalities to a subject without scripture to back up, as I used Psalms 1's generalities from the Tongues thread, also holding up John 6 to qualify or disqualify a generality.

I also like to work from Chapters rather then a verse here or there unless there are 2 or 3 to back up that scripture...you know...like having 2 or 3 witnesses.

I have always found those things that *seem like* but just seem to miss the mark, come from those who:

1. Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ
2. Deny imputed righteousness
3. Deny this amazing Grace(our sanctification by faith) we have In Christ Jesus
4. Deny the POWER of the Cross
5. Deny our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. (Romans 6-8)
6. Do not see themselves raised up with Jesus Christ as we speak, and seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
7. Do not have their roots of their Salvation firmly established from OT Covenant’s", to the New Covenant, that Hebrews so wonderfully lays out for all believers.....A BETTER Covenant.

There is only *ONE* Gospel that will SAVE, Sanctify and Glorify the Believer.

That is why it is so vitally important to have a firm foundation in who we are In Christ.

KNOWING these things, not just from a head knowledge but a Heart knowledge, as the Lord performs those promises:

"HE who has begun a good work in you will continue it until the Day of Jesus Christ." (and so many more!!!

This is what Paul was talking about in Ephesians...that WE, the Church...His Body would know the Hope of OUR calling.

I do agree, there are some very good counterfeits out there, who use and quote scripture. Just because someone sprinkles a little blood on it, does not mean it has been sanctified by God. Many will know ALL the terminology Christians use as well. It's when NEW terminology enters the conversation.....never used in scripture, that Christians run after too, is most disturbing.

Jesus Prayed in John 17, Sanctify them in the Truth, Thy Word is Truth, and our sanctification in Truth is of the utmost importance to the Lord.

We are being changed from Glory to Glory, even by the Spirit of the Lord .....2 Corinthians 3, all referring to the New Covenant and those promises in the New Covenant.

Paul built a firm foundation of our salvation in Christ...and we build upon that fouindation....he also urges that we be careful how we build, as our works will be judges.....many will burn up, but the Gold, Silver and precious stone will remain. The Gold Silver and Precious stone are the WORD of God, and that WORD has been tries 7 times in the fire so Psalms has said.

God Tests us, and our understanding of His word, through that same firey furnace if fire. HE will purge out and burn up our mis-understandings as well as ***Establish, Strengthen and Settle us after we have suffered a while***.

Job, also used by the Apostle is the example here....Job said, I shall come forth as GOLD. Although he was confused in his ordeal, he never denied his faith in the Redeemer, stating...I know that my redeemer liveth.

In the end, God confronts Job, first stating that what Job had spoken was right and his friends were wrong....but there was MORE to see and Know...The Holiness of God. When Job saw himself in contrast to the Holiness of God, he threw himself in the dirt and said, "I am a man of unclean lips".

Added/ Edited for Content:

You will also see reading Job, (to long to post the whole book here), that God was angry with the * Friends of Job* because they did not speak the correct things to Job or have the authority to speak about the Charactor of God to begin with)They may have THOUGHT they knew, but didn't.

*I recommend reading the Book of Job...

End if Edit

It is these moments in our firey trials, and the Holiness of God is revealed to us that we too say, "Now I see, now I understand",.

Here are scriptures to back this up.

Deuteronomy 21:5
And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

2 Samuel 22:31
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.

Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Psalm 105:19
Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

LittleGift wrote:

...

The Word of God is [u]far more[/u] than words on a page, however correct, true and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

....

Any comments?

Jeannette

Jeannette,

John 1.1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1.4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1.5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

It doesn't say anything about the Word of God being the written page. Does that mean that I do not read the Bible? Of course not but I definitely try not to argue or beat anyone up over it.

You also wrote...

LittleGift wrote:
If we are debating an issue, or seeking proof for or against a particular teaching, then appeals to the Word are right and proper.

Yet, while that is good, I wonder if it can sometimes be taken too far? We sometimes seem so concerned about being "Bereans" that we miss the heart of the matter, and get bogged down in endless wranglings over finer points of doctrine. Or using the Word to fight each other!

i agree with your statement that we miss the heart of the matter most times when we are heatedly debating over the written Word. This is just my humble opinion but I believe that there are too many pharisee's here and in churches who can and sometimes do kill with the letter of the word and I don't think that is what God intended when he let man create the printing press!

Anyway, Zac Poonen taught a sermon called [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=105&date=07_09&title=The+Spirit+And+The+Cross]The Spirit and the Cross[/url], I posted it on another thread but I think it is relevant here too. Here is just an excerpt of it...

[11.00 minutes into it approx and pardon any typing mistakes!] All the great Christians you read about in the Bible, never had a Bible themselves. Abraham didn't have a Bible, Job didn't have a Bible. Enoch who walked with God 300 years didn't have Bible. Even the New Testament Christians, most of them were running around from cave to cave, they didn't have a Bible. The first printed Bibles came around 1500 AD, just about 500 years ago. So how did people lives so many years ago without Bibles? How did God expect Christians to live for 1,500 years without the Bible? They couldn't have a quiet time with the Bible every morning; do you know what was most important for those Christians? The Holy Spirit. The way of the Cross. That's what makes a person spiritual. The reason I say that is because we live in a day when knowledge and information has been given great importance and I found in our churches also there's so much of Bible knowledge and information, understanding of doctrine and truth and all that [u]but not a sufficient dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit and not a sufficient understanding on the way of the Cross. And that's the reason why we don't have more spiritual people in our midst.[/u] [13.25]
(Emphasis mine.)

If we would just be about the Father's business we wouldn't have all this disagreement. Jesus's brother said,

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
James 1:27

God bless you Jeanette in your walk with Him!

Katy said:

I didn't disagree with anything you said.

That'll teach me not to jump to conclusions - as I thought [i]you[/i] were doing! ;-)

Some great and thoughtful responses here. Thank you all

in Him

Jeannette

Hi Jeannette, I'm so glad we worked through that, and seeing your definition of paraphrase, I whole hardly agree. Many do quote scripture and have no HEART depth of the meaning...AMEN!!

I remember Paul saying the word was WROUGHT in Him, which means beating as with a hammer. Many have it hammered in their heads but never in their hearts. God does the hammering.

Main Entry: 1wrought
Pronunciation: 'ro t
past and past participle of WORK
beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED -- used of metals

* It is God who WORKS in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure*
*He who began a good WORK in you will continue it until the Day of Jesus Christ*

James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness ** engrafted word**which is able to save your souls. (The Word is engrafted in our Heart) A New Covenant Promise, …. A New Heart will I give you, and take away that stony heart…..

Romans 15:18
For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 7:11
For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

2 John 1:8
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

OT Saints had the Law written on tablets of Stone, The New Creation has them Wrought in and Grafted into our NEW HEART. That's the difference between a Pharasee and one under the operation of Grace. Pharisees talk about rules, and keeping them, Grace talks about teh finished work of Christ and His Keeping us, working in us to will AND to do of His Good pleasure....Faith that produces WORKS....HIS Works!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS Added for content:

From the one who WAS a Pharisee, to now one under Grace, how totally awesome aer Paul's words, as he stated in 1st Corinthians, ( though you have many teachers but not many Fathers, be ye followers of Me, for I have begotten you throught the Gospel. And here is Paul's heart...whom God WROUGHT a Mighty WORK in him stating:

Philippians 3
1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Poet said:

Also personally if someone is writing a book, and they dont give scripture and source material to promote their findings, I throw it away because If I cant confirm what they teach, then how do I know im drinking cool-aid or not.

If you know Scripture you will know if it's true teaching or not. Whether the writer gives direct quotes or not won't make any difference. The only question I have to ask is, [color=CC0000]"Does what this writer or speaker says line up with what the Bible says?"[/color]

Of course, quotes are important, but sometimes the Bible references are best as confirmatory footnotes, or an appendix, instead of in the body of the writing. It all depends on the purpose, and who the book or talk is aimed at.

Blessings

Jeannette

Katy said:

I have always found those things that *seem like* but just seem to miss the mark, come from those who:

1. Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ
2. Deny imputed righteousness
3. Deny this amazing Grace(our sanctification by faith) we have In Christ Jesus
4. Deny the POWER of the Cross
5. Deny our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. (Romans 6-8)
6. Do not see themselves raised up with Jesus Christ as we speak, and seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
7. Do not have their roots of their Salvation firmly established from OT Covenant’s", to the New Covenant, that Hebrews so wonderfully lays out for all believers.....A BETTER Covenant.

I'm glad you put in number 3, [i]Sanctification[/i] by faith. Justification (= number 1, Imputed righterousness) is wonderful but its not enough by itself!

Blessings

Jeannette

Katy said:

I do agree, there are some very good counterfeits out there, who use and quote scripture. Just because someone sprinkles a little blood on it, does not mean it has been sanctified by God. Many will know ALL the terminology Christians use as well. It's when NEW terminology enters the conversation.....never used in scripture, that Christians run after too, is most disturbing.

The little I've read on the "inner light" discussion is relevant here. Someone on that thread said (if I remember right) that George Fox probably meant what the Bible means re the indwelling Holy Spirit, but those who came after began to use the term "inner light" in a more mystical or occult way.

Blessings

Jeannette

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

poet wrote:
The pharisees of Jesus time thought they had it all figured out and missed the spirit of scripture, and doctrine.
...
Also personally if someone is writing a book, and they dont give scripture and source material to promote their findings, I throw it away because If I cant confirm what they teach, then how do I know im drinking cool-aid or not.

At the risk of opening myself to being stoned, I'd like to challenge this last statement.

It is interesting to note that the Pharisees commonly quoted Scripture, and yet the sentiments behind what they said were unscriptural because they neglected the "weightier matters of the law" (Matt 23:23). [b]Citing Scripture references doesn't guarantee Scriptural accuracy, just as it is not essential that actual Scripture be quoted in order for a sermon to be Scriptural[/b].

Consider Paul on Mars Hill. I don't believe that he even quoted Scripture once, and yet his sermon hit the nail on the head. Even if we read his epistles, we can see that he often quoted Scripture as if they were his words, not citing a reference. Often even if he did quote a source, he'd only quote the author (eg, Romans 10, where he refers to what Moses wrote).

Norman Grubb was one such example, who would be constantly quoting and paraphrasing Scripture, without even saying that it was Scripture. Art Katz was another. I can remember listening to something he said once, thinking "That's an interesting theory. Not sure if I agree", only to be reading a verse in Leviticus a few days later, to find out that he was actually quoting Scripture.

We are called to be like the Bereans, who "searched the Scriptures to see" if what Paul said was true. [b]Give me one man who'll share the heart of God, without opening His Bible to do so, over 100 who compulsively rattle off a heap of verses to prove a point, any day[/b].

Blessings

Jeannette

Intens4Him wrote:

LittleGift wrote:

...

The Word of God is [u]far more[/u] than words on a page, however correct, true and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

....

Any comments?

Jeannette

Jeannette,

John 1.1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1.4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1.5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

It doesn't say anything about the Word of God being the written page. Does that mean that I do not read the Bible? Of course not but I definitely try not to argue or beat anyone up over it.

You also wrote...

LittleGift wrote:
If we are debating an issue, or seeking proof for or against a particular teaching, then appeals to the Word are right and proper.

Yet, while that is good, I wonder if it can sometimes be taken too far? We sometimes seem so concerned about being "Bereans" that we miss the heart of the matter, and get bogged down in endless wranglings over finer points of doctrine. Or using the Word to fight each other!

i agree with your statement that we miss the heart of the matter most times when we are heatedly debating over the written Word. This is just my humble opinion but I believe that there are too many pharisee's here and in churches who can and sometimes do kill with the letter of the word and I don't think that is what God intended when he let man create the printing press!

Anyway, Zac Poonen taught a sermon called [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=105&date=07_09&title=The+Spirit+And+The+Cross]The Spirit and the Cross[/url], I posted it on another thread but I think it is relevant here too. Here is just an excerpt of it...

[11.00 minutes into it approx and pardon any typing mistakes!] All the great Christians you read about in the Bible, never had a Bible themselves. Abraham didn't have a Bible, Job didn't have a Bible. Enoch who walked with God 300 years didn't have Bible. Even the New Testament Christians, most of them were running around from cave to cave, they didn't have a Bible. The first printed Bibles came around 1500 AD, just about 500 years ago. So how did people lives so many years ago without Bibles? How did God expect Christians to live for 1,500 years without the Bible? They couldn't have a quiet time with the Bible every morning; do you know what was most important for those Christians? The Holy Spirit. The way of the Cross. That's what makes a person spiritual. The reason I say that is because we live in a day when knowledge and information has been given great importance and I found in our churches also there's so much of Bible knowledge and information, understanding of doctrine and truth and all that [u]but not a sufficient dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit and not a sufficient understanding on the way of the Cross. And that's the reason why we don't have more spiritual people in our midst.[/u] [13.25]
(Emphasis mine.)

If we would just be about the Father's business we wouldn't have all this disagreement. Jesus's brother said,

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
James 1:27

If we would just pay more attention to this one verse, we just might have heaven on earth. At least the widows and orphans would think so!

God bless you Jeanette in your walk with Him!

Of course the last quote doesn't give us an excuse for neglecting the written Word.

Just in case someone thinks that's what's being said ;-)

Blessings

Jeannette

Katy said:

I remember Paul saying the word was WROUGHT in Him, which means beating as with a hammer. Many have it hammered in their heads but never in their hearts. God does the hammering.

Main Entry: 1wrought
Pronunciation: 'ro t
past and past participle of WORK
beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED -- used of metals

Apparently the metal isn't only hammered but plunged again and again into fire and into water by turns, until it becomes very strong, yet pliable enough to be shaped and used without shattering .

In Jeremiah it says that God's Word is like a hammer and like fire.

If I was being picky I could say (after looking it up) that none of the NT Greek words used for "wrought" actually MEAN hammered. But it expresses the sense of the Lord's working in our lives all the same.

[b]In fact that's a very good example of what we've been talking about on this thread, not accurately sticking with the [i][u]letter[/u][/i] of Scripture but still keeping to the [i][u]Spirit[/u][/i] of it[/b].

love in HIm

Jeannette

Hi again Jeannette,

Exodus 25:31
And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

I should have put this scriptue to cross reference, but the word, "beaten" is miqshah in Hebrew meaning:
1.molded by hammering,
2.beaten out,
3.upright.

There are so many wonderful gems of truth in the study of the Tabernacle, types and shadows referring to Jesus Christ, the Church, Mercy seat, etc, that which was made with hands, made exactly after a pattern God gave Moses, of the Heavenly True Picture, (although not fully revealed in the OT, but fully revealed in the New Testament.

Jesus will present the Church to Himself without spot or Wrinkle, so in the OT, Pure Gold was of beaten work. (Job said I shall come forth as Gold). We are molded into the image of Jesus Christ...Christ formed in you as Paul told the Galatians. They went back to the law, and Paul said "Have ye SUFFERED so much in vain", Ye have fallen from Grace. So many think GRACE is so easy, when actually it is probably more difficult then anything. We LEARN obedience throught the things we suffer, and Jesus was our example of suffering so that He could become a faithful High Priest to Us, His Church. To KNOW Him and the Fellowship of His sufferings is the heart of the Christian life.

So I understand what you mean that people can say something we may not think is in scripture, when it actually is....

I don't like giving any principles unless it is in scripture, so thank you for pointing that out to show where this truth is rooted.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1. Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ
2. Deny imputed righteousness
3. Deny this amazing Grace(our sanctification by faith) we have In Christ Jesus
4. Deny the POWER of the Cross
5. Deny our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. (Romans 6-8)
6. Do not see themselves raised up with Jesus Christ as we speak, and seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
7. Do not have their roots of their Salvation firmly established from OT Covenant’s", to the New Covenant, that Hebrews so wonderfully lays out for all believers.....A BETTER Covenant.

I'm glad you put in number 3, Sanctification by faith. Justification (= number 1, Imputed righterousness) is wonderful but its not enough by itself!

Yes and we must never forget that the whole list above is through the **Blood** of the everlasting Covenant, that is why there is teh warning in Hebrews 10 to Jews still wanting to keep Law, that there is no more sacrifice for sin ( Jesus shed blood, paid it all).

And how we are not to count the Blood of the Covenant a common thing or unholy thing, or trample underfoot the Son of God, or insult the Spirit of Grace, for it will be these that the wrath of God is coming.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the DOCTRINE of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the DOCTRINE of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this DOCTRINE, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Proverbs 4:2
For I give you good DOCTRINE, forsake ye not my law.

Isaiah 28:9
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand DOCTRINE? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 29:24
They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn DOCTRINE.

Matthew 7:28
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his DOCTRINE:

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for DOCTRINEs the commandments of men.

Matthew 16:12
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the DOCTRINE of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 22:33
And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his DOCTRINE.

Mark 1:22
And they were astonished at his DOCTRINE: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

Mark 1:27
And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new DOCTRINE is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Mark 4:2
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his DOCTRINE,

John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My DOCTRINE is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the DOCTRINE, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' DOCTRINE and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 13:12
Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the DOCTRINE of the Lord.

Acts 17:19
And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new DOCTRINE, whereof thou speakest, is?

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of DOCTRINE which was delivered you.

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the DOCTRINE which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by DOCTRINE?

1 Corinthians 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a DOCTRINE, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of DOCTRINE, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Colossians 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and DOCTRINEs of men?

1 Timothy 1:3
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other DOCTRINE,

1 Timothy 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound DOCTRINE;

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and DOCTRINEs of devils;

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good DOCTRINE, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:13
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to DOCTRINE.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the DOCTRINE; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and DOCTRINE.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his DOCTRINE be not blasphemed.

1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the DOCTRINE which is according to godliness;

2 Timothy 3:10
But thou hast fully known my DOCTRINE, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and DOCTRINE.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound DOCTRINE both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound DOCTRINE:

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in DOCTRINE shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:10
Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the DOCTRINE of God our Saviour in all things.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the DOCTRINE of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange DOCTRINEs. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the DOCTRINE of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the DOCTRINE of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

Revelation 2:24
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this DOCTRINE, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

This is what GOD says about Doctrine. I stand with the Lord, the Apostles and the Prophets on this issue 100 %.....OBEDIENCE of Faith!!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS: Psalms 1, Jesus Came to save Sinners lost in
the SICKNESS of SIN,.... He came for the sick and lost, not to heal their bodies, but to heal a broken relationship between God and Man. As no one can come to the Father except throught the Son.

When SIN entered the world through Adam's FALL, all died ( Romans 5) and with that death also came physical death and disease. Our SOULS He came to Heal, our bodies won't be healed and perfect until He Comes and redeems His SAINTS when we will have our GLORIFIED Bodies.

We don't know what we will be, but we know we will be like Him,for we shall see Him as He is.

God is more interested in a healed relationship with Him offered through CALVARY, then anything elso. God isn't interested as much in our happiness as He is in our Holiness. ( Painful saying...but True!)

Psalms 1...Do you want want this? or not?

[b][color=CC0000]1 Timothy 5:17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and DOCTRINE.[/color][/b]

did you see what philologos said in the inner light thread.

........."God is bigger than his book".

Here's another I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/05/contemplating_t.html

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS: If you inner light doesn't take you to Calvary, and that light doesn't shine in the face of Jesus Christ....WHO IS GOD, who came to break the power of SIN in your life, then you are only dancing in the sparks of your own light.

Here is a sobering warning:...from GOD!

Isaiah 50:11
Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Jeanette, greetings! :-)

Interesting how the Spirit leads. It is often the case on SI that someone begins a thread (like this) which links others which are busy at the same time, at the deeper level of spiritual truths being brought to attention there also.

This crosses with 'A vital doctrine which the church has failed to teach me', in interesting ways.

poet made good points on p1, some of which have already been quoted, but this is what stood out for me: '[b]we're on the same team trying to edify each other and answer each others questions[/b].'

Amen!

He continued: 'I no longer will bash a person, but can make righteous judgments on what they teach.'

Amen.

'Will I share my findings to everyone who I come in contact with or will I quietly just get away from bad teaching and pray for those who listen to it?'

Hmmm. If only it were this simple! :-(

'[b]I could be wrong about bad teaching and figure that out a year later. But now I've told 20 people that I have to find and appoligize for it.[/b]'

This is level of practical Christianity is challenging!

My personal favourite from all these, (which I hope will not rebound back on me!), is this last sentence, which [i]must[/i] become one of my prayers: [color=006699]It takes discernment to know what to speak out against [b]and when to just chew your tongue off[/b].[/color] :-)

I don't want to get deeply embroiled in this thread, but have found something more to say, which I hope may bring an acceptable perspective on our thinking and doing.

David had written about the practical ministry of Jesus as if it was in opposition to doctrine, and Katy replied in opposition, (also) contradicting what she had said on another thread about the importance of [u]all[/u] the gifts. This conflict caught my eye, because it is obvious to the reader.

Katy, your emphasis on the word is great, but it opens you to its intrinsic paradoxes. Here are two:

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

and

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I know I don't know the Bible as well as I want to, nor do I understand it all, but it is an amazing tool in the Spirit's hand to reveal God to us more clearly, and to challenge us to the roots to live as Jesus lived. This is the crunch!

David, amen to your last post.

I think theologians may have hacked the word 'doctrine' to pieces, that it no longer can be depended upon to mean something to do with a health-giving formula of words - doctorin-g. It may even be removed from scriptural concepts. :-o

Beloved, let us love one another as Christ loved us. (I speak to myself.)

Hi Psalms 1, I know it's hard, when others interject in a conversation WE started together, and I know WE can work through it without the extra thoughts projected into this conversation only to cause confusion and bring things off track.

I've learned to avoid those comments that lead away from the issues we were talking about.

If some see contradiction of thought, maybe it's out of their own misunderstanding....as was said...I agree.

Back to our discussion. Maybe what I am replying to, as you did bring it over from the tongues thread, that the poor people in Mexico ( doctrine is like water running out of their hands.....but Psalms 1, that is a wrong perspective.

Here I do believe we will agree on, and put other comments to rest that there is no contradictions what so ever.

Our GIFTS are to Glorify God, and in the use of them we must preach and teach CORRECT Doctrine concerning salvation. There are so many Gospels that are simply false gospels. Miracles or the appearance of them is not enough, as I posted one such Mormon Missionary who did perform miracles and recruited many into the Mormon Church....but we both know,,,their Jesus is Satan's brother...an angel. Now we also know Angels have no blood...correct? YES, they do not, so their Jesus (even though they preach blood) (I say...what blood exactly??? Angels don't have Blood). Many of the WORDS sound good etc, etc, but their whole foundation on the Deity of Jesus Christ is one of great difference. In the OT, the Son of God, Jews KNEW that meant GOD, not a person, but God in a person, the Messiah. The reason Jews killed Jesus was because they were incensed that He claimed to be the Son of God. This was total blasphemy to them. When Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus, and was saved, after being filled with the Holy Spirit IMMEDIATELY went to the Temple and preached that JESUS IS **THE SON OF GOD**. That was a most significant moment not only for Paul, but Jews who rejected the SON OF GOD! The Idea wasn't about Gifts of Tongues or Prophesy or Teaching or Preaching,,,,but what he said.....DOCTRINE....plays a major role in it more than anything. What Paul was preaching WAS DOCTRINE....so, there is NO, absolutely NO contradiction in what I said.

I do believe we agree on this....just don't quite know how to express it so we can agree.

Also concerning extra Biblical words like following your....**Inner Light**...we Follow Jesus Christ...we Follow the Lamb of God, and those who are NOT ashamed of the Gospel, or Ashamed to say JESUS CHRIST, or embarassed to say we follow the Lamb of God...are those who are not ashamed to say they were saved by the Shed blood of Jesus Christ.

We are to abstain from all appearances of evil, and for MY Conscience, I cannot use these words "Inner Light" no matter what someone is saying about them...the apperance of these words, Not rooted in the Cross, along with cults using them.....also knowing these words ARE NOT in scripture to begin with have no place coming our of our mouth. We preach *Christ Crucified*, and we are Lead by the Holy Spirit,who is by the way , the third PERSON of the Tinity. An inner light seems more like an *IT*...God is NOT an *IT*.
Just as AA uses Higher Power, but with them, a tree in your back yard can be their Higher Power.

I don't use the term Higher Power either. I'm not ashamed to say Jesus Christ.

Oh well, enough for my soap box here.

So, I don't think there is contradiction with wht we are saying, I just think it's things we feel inside, but have yet to more fully express.
(I don't like others psycho-babbel jumping in and doing that for me or you...we can work this out ourselves.....as adults!

I do appreciate this conversation Psalms 1, because you are stating more clearly each time and clarifying your thoughts.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-) :-) :-)

Katy-did said

I know it's hard, when others interject in a conversation WE started together

I've learned to avoid those comments that lead away from the issues we were talking about.

only to cause confusion and bring things off track.

David,

I too am blessed through your posts, particularly your recent outbursts of heart-pouring. I didn't say anything because others commented, but you were right in the Spirit of what God is speaking to me, in your post about Mexico. May He give you your heart's desire in growth and ministry.

Hi Jeanette,

On p1 you asked poet

Which of their beliefs were extra-Biblical?

After I'd thought about it, I realised the recording of malpractice in the New Testament, has been kept to a minimum by the Holy Spirit, which seems like a good thing. This enables us to concentrate on the truths we must embrace.

David had written about the practical ministry of Jesus as if it was in opposition to doctrine, and Katy replied in opposition, (also) contradicting what she had said on another thread about the importance of all the gifts. This conflict caught my eye, because it is obvious to the reader.

Dorcas: Your comment here was a generalization **of something you seemed to think I said ***without any reference or backup of what you were referring to as an example.

So, without the reader knowing all the facts of a conversation, all they are doing is reading your comment based on nothing specific.

You used 2 scripture that you seemed to think contradicted one another????? But, no scripture, properly understood contradicts one another....it's men's interpretation of the scripture that is in contradiction.

I just can’t help but wonder why you seem to be following me around the threads as though you need to referee….

Now, if you want to throw your beliefs into the ring, that is quite another matter, however, that is NOT what you are doing here.

You replied on the Tongues thread with something excellent from GW North. When I agreed with his comments concerning the Holy Spirit (not actually stating GW North ) but re-iterating his thoughts, you then came back to QUESTION and disagree, or in some way, cast a shadow in that? That left me very confused. My first thought was…..did she actually read GW North’s comments, or is she just confused.

Yes, it is the nature of the beast, and where I see more confusion added when unnecessary.

Maybe we can all work harder at not adding confusion when none is needed.

You see, when Psalms 1 and I finished our conversation….what you had inferred was not even part of our conversation to begin with.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did
:-)

you then came back to QUESTION and disagree, or in some way, cast a shadow in that?

All I know is that if you say in the tongues thread how [u]all[/u] the gifts are important to the body, and then post here that sound doctrine is nothing about healing the sick, that doesn't make sense whichever way you read it in the light of Jesus' life and ministry and the life and ministry Christians are enabled to have through the gifts of the Spirit.

That is what I was getting at in this thread... that if you are going to quote scripture, knowing as you do that all scripture is necessary for the fullest revelation of God to us, then comments which appear not to acknowledge other verses which make an obvious contribution to the topic in hand, lay you open to someone else (like me) coming in to the conversation to bring them up. :-D

As it happens, your reasons for disliking the term 'inner light', the more you have explained them, make good sense. Amen. I'm chewing on them.

Likewise, the more I read the Bible, the more I see it directing me to [u]Christ[/u], therefore I used those two verses (both from His lips, one verse pointing to Himself, the other to the written word) to make that point, [i][b]because[/i][/b] in your comments to David, you were setting the written word [i]against[/i] His life as if the two revelations of Him are at variance with each other.

Here's what you said on p3, after quoting 45 verses which contain the word 'doctrine', but not analysing what 'doctrine' might be under discussion in any of them.

Jesus Came to save Sinners lost in
the SICKNESS of SIN,.... He came for the sick and lost, [b]not to heal their bodies[/b], but to heal a broken relationship between God and Man. [b]emphasis mine[/b]

I can guess you had no idea as you were writing it, what it would look like, and probably are horrified to think anyone would attribute to you such an anti-scriptural comment, but what else should we make of it?

That's what drew me into this thread, dear sister.

But let me add, you are among friends, here. We are all keen on the written word of God and desire to understand better... [i]Jesus[/i] [u]the[/u] word, contracted to a Man - the actions\\doctrine of whom John said even the whole world could not contain books which could be written to record all that He [u]did[/u]. We need the gifts of the Spirit if we are to be a body (like) Jesus on this earth.

Dorcas Quotes:

All I know is that if you say in the tongues thread how all the gifts are important to the body, and then post here that sound doctrine is nothing about healing the sick, that doesn't make sense whichever way you read it in the light of Jesus' life and ministry and the life and ministry Christians are enabled to have through the gifts of the Spirit.

Dorcas, there are two kinds of Gifts for 2 purposes, one are SIGN gifts for the unsaved....tongues, etc.
and then there are Gifts Jesus gave to HIS BODY for the edifying of the Saints.....DOCTRINE.

see Ephesians 4. Where in these Gifts for the edifying of the Saints do you see Tongues, Healing etc....You won't.......
Ephesians 4:

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Jesus Healed the blind man correct? Did the blind man just say thanks Jesus and walk away?

Read the SCRIPTURES concerning the purpose of Jesus HEALING. It was a SIGN to Israel that Jesus Christ WAS INDEED the SON OF GOD, the Messiah whom the Jews rejected.

Dorcas questions Katy's comment:

Jesus Came to save Sinners lost in the SICKNESS of SIN,.... He came for the sick and lost, not to heal their bodies, but to heal a broken relationship between God and Man. emphasis mine

Dorcas is asking Katy if Katy is asking herself why Jesus did so much healing:

So, are you asking yourself why Jesus did so much healing of bodies, if your statement is also true?

Katy answers Dorcas through scripture alone WHY Jesus did so much healing and miracles:

ANSWER:
John 9
1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
8The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
10Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
11He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
12Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
13They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
14And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
15Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
16Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
17They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
18But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
19And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?
20His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
21But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
22These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
23Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
24Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
25He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
26Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
28Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
30The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
[b][color=CC0000]35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. [/color][/b]

THIS WAS/IS the PURPOSE of Signs and Wonders!

40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Dorcas, I'm not confused at all about the Gifts of the Spirit and their purpose and what the ultimate outcome should be.

However, even in light of Jesus doing Miracles the Jews still rejected who Jesus Chirst was/is.

SIGN Gifts are for the unbeliever.....those listed in Ephesians 4 are for the Body....The Body needs no SIGN Gifts to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ.

If you happen to have the gift of Healing...for one thing it's not you doing the Healing, but God, and for one purpose ONLY...to REVEAL the SON OF GOD that you may believe He was sent into the world to SAVE SINNERS!!

********John 3:11-17 is why Jesus Came********
He didn't come to heal...He came to SAVE!!!!!
John 3:

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

22After these things came Jesus and his disciples

So, no Dorcas, when we rightly divide the Word of Truth, there is no contradiction whatsoever!

[b][color=CC0000]I absolutely quote scripture for it is the ONLT place you will find ABSOLUTE TRUTH. [/color][/b]

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

When Moses lifted up the serpent in the winderness, it was for healing, but it was an acknowledgement that SIN originated with the serpent in the beginning with Adam & Eve.

Lifting up the serpent was lifting up Jesus Christ, as we must confess and repent and acknowledge we are sinners!

The center and focus of Christianity is the cross of Jesus Christ. We "lift high the cross." With the Apostle Paul, we should seek nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified (1 Corinthians 2: 2).

Today, as the result of a variety of movements, many offer a cross-less Christianity, which, in essence, is not Christianity at all.

In John 3: 14, Jesus compares his being lifted up on the cross with Moses lifting up the snake on a pole in the wilderness.

PS Added for content:

NOTICE how healing is handled to those "IN THE BODY OF CHRIST".....who was called? The Elders!!!
14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church.....(IT DOESN'T SAY*.....*those who have the gift of healing*...interesting huh!....UNLESS WE ARE TO ASSUME ****THAT ALL AND ONLY THE ELDERS**** HAVE THE GIFT OF HEALING.....but I find no scripture that makes such a statement.)

[b][color=CC0000]James 5:13-15

13Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

[/color][/b]

[size=xx-small][color=990033][font=Arial]Hi all

Some of this might already have been answered in the thread, because I’m playing catch-up here...[/font][/color][/size]

psalm1 wrote:
Katy did, my point about doctrine was ......when looking through THEIR eyes things look different.

I dont think doctrinal teaching heals the sick or raises the dead.
I also dont think i must be 100% doctrinally correct to minister to the sick.

I agree with this bit...[/font][/color][/size]

Jesus was doctrinally incorrect to the religious people.
Doctrine can hinder.

The people who recieve a miracle ....I have never once heard of one of these people wondering about doctrine.

I think you are defining doctrine as [u]man's[/u] understanding of the Bible. Is that so?

Another definition is that the Bible is the word of God and helps us to understand [i]the[/i] WORD of God – which is Jesus! And doctrine is our attempt to explain this! Those who are healed and helped and delivered and have the gospel preached to them are coming under the influence of true, living doctrine.

You are, I think, pointing out the problem with dead man-made doctrines, that can neither heal nor save nor deliver. There is a difference between the two kinds of "doctrine", so those who are talking about the right sort of doctrine probably think you are attacking that.[/font][/color][/size]

When John questioned Jesus authenticity Jesus said "go and tell john the blind see the lame walk......etc.
HE DIDNT TRY TO PROVE A POSITION DOCTRINALLY.

Do you really think poor people need food and doctrine?
This doctrine is different than Jesus'
Jesus went about healing. He taught and did a lot of things but mainly healing.
I think doctrine is important and I love doctrine
But food and doctrine for the poor? Not me ......bring me the sick.....they need help. Do we feed the poor? yes. Do we preach to the poor? yes. How do the poor know Jesus is alive?
The blind see the dead are raised leapers are cleansed ......etc
David

After Pentecost Jesus carried on healing by the Spirit, and He often did it through the word preached by the disciples. When Peter walked down the street people were healed before he said anything; but when he preached at Pentecost and in the house of Cornelius, the Holy Spirit descended on the hearers. That is true doctrine!

in Him

Jeannette[/font][/color][/size][size=xx-small]***Edited for clarity. I find this upside-down sizing very difficult to read.[/size]

poet wrote:
hey littlegift. :-)
Yes I did mean that the extra biblical teachings of the Jews were the added laws, and that they put as much or more imphasis to them than the spirit of the law. When you add something or take it away you will miss the mark in due time.

a good point was made about scripture being quoted or not, when we should already know if it lines up with scripture or not.
the reason I said that is because Im not a theologian, and believe it or not many people wrench scripture out of context to prove their pet doctrine, so if they quote it in a book I get to cross check what they say and help my studying..
One of my biggest pet peves about book writers is that they will quote some strange writing or tradition without letting me know what their reference material was or how I can get to it.
If I share what they taught and someone asks me how do I know for sure, then I say I dont know but so and so said it and it must be true... that is a pet peeve of mine anyway.
God bless.

I'm writing this in "xxsmall" Why does the normal writing come even smaller?

I asked that in the help section but don't think anyone answered. It's doing my head in :-?!

Yes, you have a good point. Not everyone can look things up, especially someone with no knowledge of the Bible before they came to the Lord. To be "bereans" a person has to have some knowledge base so they know what questions to ask and where to look. Even those who have been believers a long time can be taken in that way. It doesn't occur to them that the Bible may not be saying what the fellow who writes the book is saying. Popular songs don't help. For example, the chorus that has the lines:

"Let the weak say I am strong"
Because of what the Lord has done for us...

The original context in Scripture is that enemies had better watch out, stand up and fight - even the weak ones - because they are going to be beaten anyway!

That's why its good for a book to have margin references at least, to make things easier to check.

in Him

Jeannette[/size]

When John questioned Jesus authenticity Jesus said "go and tell john the blind see the lame walk......etc.
HE DIDNT TRY TO PROVE A POSITION DOCTRINALLY.

Actually, that was EXACTLY what He was doing! He was proving to them His position that He was the Messiah! He was proving it [i][u]from the Scriptures[/u][/i]. He was doing what I was talking about in my original post. Not quoting the Bible word for word, but in ordinary speech. He did the same when He read that passage from Isaiah 61 in the synagogue (Luke 4). His listeners knew exactly what He meant when He said “today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Luke 24:

[color=660066]25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And [b]beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself[/b].
[/color]

Luke 4:
[color=660066]16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And [b]he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.[/b]
[/color]

That is doctrine, Jesus-style!

Blessings

Jeannette[/size]

I so love these verses! It was God all along doing the speaking!

Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Jesus telling us what GOD said in John 3:16

For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him will not parish but have Eternal life.

You know, aging is a *degenerative disease* that came with the fall of Adam and Eve, and because of a fallen nature all men died, not only spiritually but physically. Those who have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, believing Jesus Died for their sin (because of coarse we can't die for our own...and save ourselves) Jesus became SIN for us, ......while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us....

Now those *In Christ* have Everlasting Life...Eternal Life. We are a New Creation In Christ Jesus...regenerated....reborn. We will never die and be separated from God for all eternity. However our physical bodies will die soon, even if you are in perfect health. So if Jesus came only to heal our physical bodies, technically, wouldn't we live *physically* forever? And even those who were healed, are they still alive? possibly 2000 years old now? Of coarse not. It's appointed unto man to die once and then the judgement. Jesus came to save your soul. When He returns for His Church, you will then have a perfect body, a Glorified Body, never to die.

Go for the BEST Jesus has to offer....Eternal Life!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did :-)

When is the last time you read a book on raising the dead? there arent any!

Psalms 1, you don't mind my comments here, as you first made this statement to me...raising the dead!

What on earth for? Why are you so taken with trying to raise the dead. Jesus said I AM the resurrection, so we best leave that to Him, and He will raise up His Saints at the FIRST resurrection.

Do you actually think raising up a lost dead person will give them another chance to accept Jesus Christ?

And do you actually believe those In Christ, who are asleep In Christ (those who have passed) God is going to allow YOU to bring them back to life?

Just asking???? Who are you trying to raise from the dead, and Why?

There are many BOOKS " How to have the Power of God for 3 easy payments of $19.95...just call the 1-800 number at the bottom of the screen...

But remember when Paul did a miracle, and ( I can't remember his name ) wanted to give Paul MONEY to have that same power....read what Paul said to him. (What is your motive).

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We raise the dead, when we preach the Gospel of Eternal life, and those who believe are RAISED UP TOGETHER WITH CHRIST....a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST JESUS!

It's bad enough Rick Warren claims HE is going to be the savior of the world and heal AIDS, but here's the clincher...

The major cause of HIV and AIDS in the U.S. has been and remains male homosexual behavior. The next largest transmission category is intravenous drug use, followed by high-risk heterosexual contact. This last group consists of people who have had sex with anyone who falls into the first two groups. If we eliminated homosexual male sex and intravenous drug use, HIV would be reduced by at least three fourths in this country. Both are unnecessary, chosen behaviors. Schools need to make sure this point is absolutely clear in the minds of every student in health education.

So , what about SIN, does that have any part in this......will Rick say...go and SIN no more?????

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

psalm1 wrote:
Jeannette, I basically agree. I was not making across the board statements.
I feel what we have in christendom today is a abstact Jesus.[we know all about him but we fail to"give" him to other people.What do you mean by tthat? I DONT KNOW. I am working on being real! I really want to see his power and to know him more fully. To die more fully. To be a more effective witness for him. I really want to impart life to the body and to the unsaved. That is why I offer a different perspective.....Not to say Doctrine is wrong or bad but to undeerstand that a teaching" wont propel us into the "elija mode" that I believe we are called into...

That's [i]exactly[/i] what I thought you meant, but some thought you were knocking true doctrine, so I deliberately set about to get you to explain your position further.[/size]

Doctrine and the word are the dna of our being.
But if we are void of the Spirit then our dryness, not our saltiness gets on others.
Have you ever noticed where Jesus said"you have heard it said.........BUT I SAY UNTO YOU....."
He changed a lot of their "doctrine"

What I ment by John the baptist was......Jesus could have said what the scripture said in the psalms and prophets but he didnt......He said only what he did.

Except it would be more with Jesus because He is the LIVING Word.

As well as Psalms and many of the prophets, Jesus quoted from or referred to the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy) and the historical books, such as Samuel, (e.g. "have you heard what David did...?")

You yourself quoted Him saying: "you have heard it said.........BUT I SAY UNTO YOU....." referring to some point in the written Law of Moses.[/size]

All I am saying is we can be top heavy with doctrine andd I believe we will not be AS effective as we potentially could be.
...Make sense?
.....David

Maybe you have tried a bit too hard to compensate for this error of being "top-heavy" with doctrine, and swung the pendulum the other way?

Which naturally has caused a reaction!

in Him

Jeannette[/size]

Katy said:

The major cause of HIV and AIDS in the U.S. has been and remains male homosexual behavior. The next largest transmission category is intravenous drug use, followed by high-risk heterosexual contact. This last group consists of people who have had sex with anyone who falls into the first two groups. If we eliminated homosexual male sex and intravenous drug use, HIV would be reduced by at least three fourths in this country. Both are unnecessary, chosen behaviors. Schools need to make sure this point is absolutely clear in the minds of every student in health education.

So , what about SIN, does that have any part in this......will Rick say...go and SIN no more?????

I’m sure that what you say is generally true in America, but there are often innocent victims who get the disease too. Are you suggesting that they [i][u]ought to[/u][/i] suffer from the sins of their parents, or their husband or wife? I'm sure you can't be!

When I was in Uganda there were several children in the Home where I worked who had been born with AIDS, because their mothers were infected. Some of the mothers were probably themselves girls who had been living on the streets, and who may have been raped or forced into prostitution to survive. Not all of them were innocent of course, but neither were all of them in that situation through their own choice. Some had themselves been born on the streets, and known no other life.

Of course, many do get AIDS through their own sinful behaviour, but surely they can be brought to repentance like any other sinner? And the first line of attack against Satan’s influence in their lives is the [i][u]love[/u][/i] of God, not His wrath. Loving a sinner – even praying for their healing - need not mean condoning the sin. In the Gospels, Jesus only said “sin no more (suggesting that their sickness was the direct result of sin) to two people I think. Most of those He healed, He just healed because He had compassion on them - sinners though they probably were.

Blanket condemnation doesn't help such folk – even if they are suffering for their “sins of the flesh”.

And why are you condemning David for (as you seem to think) supporting Rick Warren, or for possible wrong motives in wanting to see the Lord move in healing and raising the dead?

Jesus raised people from the dead while on earth as a man. Even though He knew that they would have to suffer physical death some time later.

He said that such signs would follow those who believe.

So what’s wrong with believing He can still do it these days?

And how does believing that make a person a supporter of Rick Warren? :-? :-?

Love in the Lord Jesus

Jeannette[/size]

Good Morning Jeannette,

You did read THIS PART???

If we eliminated homosexual male sex and intravenous drug use, HIV would be reduced by at least three fourths in this country.

I believe there will always be innocent people HURT by the SIN of another!!!!!! But it all boils down to SIN......doesn't it....that was the point.....SIN...SIN...

If a drunk driver KILLED an innocent person, the innocent person dies .....because of someone's SIN...Drunk Driving.

The innocent DO suffer from the sins of their parents.....alcohol fetal syndrome, crack babies.

Whether we like it or not, understand it or not, think it's fair or not, it's a fact.

All Disease, came through the fall of man. I'm not talking about God's WRATH here, but the simple facts....we are a fallen people, a sinful people......

My Nephew died a horrible death of the worse kind of Cancer there is....because of HUMAN CHOICES! Not His, but the choice of those who illegaly dump toxic waste!

Praise God He was saved, and never bitter, who left us at the age of 20.

We Need the Love of God that came to ALL men through His Son Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for SIN....(not sins) there is a difference.

To just say we need God's Love isn't enough, unless we clarify that Love came through Calvary.

There will never be a cure for all disease in this world regardless of whether someone brought it on themselves or is a victim of someone else’s poor choice. That day won't come until the New Heaven and New Earth, and possibly during the 1000 year Kingdom Reign when Jesus (not Rick Warren) takes the Throne of David. There won't be PEACE on EARTH either until that time.

MY POINT was man thinks to highly of themselves, boasting THEY are going to do these great things, and after they do these things, then will say...who needs Jesus anyway!

Well phooy on that. Jesus Died on the Cross and shed His Blood for OUR SIN!!!!! Are we too modern and sophisticated for the Gospel these days.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

I did notice something....and I am still studying this .It is this...That when the apostles prayed they prayed diff than us modern people.

They didnt ask Jesus to do it.

Psalms 1, I'm not sure how to take this comment.....are you saying Jesus isn't necessary?

Do you believe in the Triune God, Father Son and Holy Spirit? If you do, Do you see them as 3 separate Deities, or ONE GOD in three persons?

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS Added for Content:

http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/sw07.htm

[b][color=CC0000], PSALMS 1 AND JEANNETTE:

HERE IS AN EXCELLENT ARTICLE SPURGEON WROTE "HOW TO RAISE THE DEAD"[/color][/b]

Added for content:
Beware of false prophets!!!
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac18.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac13.htm

Revelation 21:3-5

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: [u][i][b]for the former things are passed away.[/b][/i][/u]

5And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: [b][color=CC0000]FOR THESE WORDS ARE TRUE AND FAITHFUL[/color][/b]

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS added for Content

In order to be part of God's New Heaven ans New Earth you must be a NEW Creation in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Said...Ye MUST be Born Again!

Paul said, old things pass away, behold all things become New, we are a NEW Creation in Christ Jesus.....

Isaiah 65:17
[ The Glorious New Creation ] “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

Hi Katy,

Thank you for your patience.

Since you wrote the post from which I'm about to quote, Jeanette has written several posts explaining that what Jesus did was 'true' doctrine. I agree, and it was a more detailed and authoritative explanation that I can give, and (to my mind) picked up on the my comment to David that theologians have hacked the word 'doctrine' to pieces (etc). But, she did not comment on what you wrote to me.

Dorcas, there are two kinds of Gifts for 2 purposes, one are SIGN gifts for the unsaved....tongues, etc.
and then there are Gifts Jesus gave to HIS BODY for the edifying of the Saints.....DOCTRINE.

see Ephesians 4. Where in these Gifts for the edifying of the Saints do you see Tongues, Healing etc....You won't.......

Wouldn't that be a bit like my assuming you only have hands, (also assuming you don't have a voice recognition programme for writing), because I've only seen your words on the computer but I've never seen that the rest of you is a normal body? ;-)

But let me say that I agree entirely that the gifts named in Ephesians 4 are for the edification of the saints - that is those who have already chosen to follow Jesus... except perhaps for the evangelists... because obviously they are going to be encouraged to preach the gospel [u]to the lost[/u]. But that's ok, because unless the lost hear the gospel, they cannot be expected to believe, and as they are added to the church, the church is being built up (which is what 'edification' means.)

That leaves the apostles... and they might have to go out and preach to the lost... as per the example of the apostles in scripture... as well as to sort out church problems in other places.

Now I come to think of it, we are all told to make disciples of all men, so, unless we use all the gifts which Jesus used, how is that going to happen? I ask, because He [i]needed[/i] to use all His gifts to draw men to Him. He didn't only heal. He also spoke words of knowledge, wisdom, prophecy and healing (to name a few), as well as the walking He did to preach and, and to be in the right place at the right time to meet those He would heal and deliver.

(Just in passing, I am not disputing that Jesus became sin for us at Calvary, and this is the picture of Him taking on the serpent on the pole, but there is much more in that picture than being healed from sin. When Moses lifted up the brass snake in the wilderness, those who were willing to look at it, who were dying of the poisonous snake bite they had because of their specific sin, were physcially healed. That was the whole point of them having to [i]look[/i] at the snake on the pole. That's why we have to look at Jesus on the cross, and see all [i]our[/i] sins laid on Him there. Your thesis against physical healing is entirely unscriptural. What is wrong today that we don't see it, is part of what David is bemoaning, and I have [i]every[/i] sympathy with his thesis.)

Then there are the teachers... and if I remember correctly, [found it: below] when Paul went to Ephesus, he spent two years debating with the learned men, that Jesus was the Christ. Debate was (and still is) a way that teaching can take place. Certainly it was appropriate in that world (where everyone spoke and accepted the Greek way of [i]discussing[/i] things), although this is not what we get in churches today. It is, nevertheless, a scriptural way both to share the gospel and to edify the church. It is beautifully interactive, also, and a sound way to help both unbelievers and believers rid their minds of strange ideas they may have about God and His ways, and begin to found them on scripture.

Acts 19
6 And when Paul had laid [i]his[/i] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
[Katy: these men were all believers. Who were the tongues a 'sign gift' to?]
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Regarding healing, I'm sure you're completely serious that you believe only elders should pray for sick saints, but from experience, this is not the way it works. For when the Holy Spirit gives the faith to pray for healing, or necessity urges one to call on the Lord for it, the technical status of the saint within the church organisation becomes less important than the obedience of the saint who has been given the faith for the moment. A scriptural example would be when Ananias was sent to pray for Saul to receive his sight. My point is, that a person with the gift of healing has a role in the body, whether they are an 'elder' or not.

It occurs to me that Jesus didn't heal [i]only[/i] those who had [u]not[/u] put their faith in Him (as you would have healing as a 'sign' gift for unbelievers'... but that for [i]anyone[/i] to be healed, faith has to be put in Him even if it's only temporarily.

You'll find Jesus never forced anyone to be healed. People came, or brought Him their sick. We assume from His testimony that He raised the dead only because His Father [u]told Him to[/u]. (I'm sorry you don't think this is for today, and I wonder how you would explain your position to those in parts of the Church where it has happened in your lifetime? Food for thought, perhaps?)

Regarding prophesy, is there any scriptural basis for believing it is only for the Church?

I know it [u]is[/u] for the Church. But haven't prophets been sent by God to speak to both unbelievers and believers alike, in many situations (in the Bible), and still today?

Lastly, there is the thorny matter of pastors, who get (such) a bad press in the Old Testament, if not in modern churches. Of all five, teachers and pastors have the more Church-bound ministries, but in feeding the sheep (if they do so properly), they are equipping the saints [i]to reach the world[/i], rather as Jesus equipped the disciples with a very small amount of food which finally fed five thousand men, besides women and children.

Hello Dorcus,

Here is another list Paul gave in Romans.

Romans 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Dorcas, I listed two kind of Gifts....I didn't say one list is no longer part of the Church....I simply gave the difference.

Can you find ONE example where the Gift of Healing us used towards a BELIEVER? Just one is all.

My Point was, referring to James, that James DID NOT say.....CALL FOR THOSE WHO HAVE THE GIFT OF HEALING.... I find that very interesting, however, that PROVES that there is healing in the Body of Christ, but not used with the SIGN GIFT of Healing. It's through PRAYER AND FAITH.

Here is another interesting tidbit.......Who's faith are we talking about.....the Faith of the Elders or the faith of the Sick person......does it actually say?

So, when someone claims they are raising someone from the dead, who's faith is raising them up, the faith of the dead person, or the faith of the one raising the dead....yet these same teachers will be the ones who say that it was YOUR lack of faith that didn't get you your healing!!!!!!

You'll find Jesus never forced anyone to be healed. People came, or brought Him their sick. We assume from His testimony that He raised the dead only because His Father told Him to. (I'm sorry you don't think this is for today, and I wonder how you would explain your position to those in parts of the Church where it has happened in your lifetime? Food for thought, perhaps?)

Once again Dorcas, Why do you insist on saying I said something I never said.....have you actually READ any of my posts completely through.....

On the issue of Doctrine, Jeannette and I were saying the SAME THING....so why are you trying to AGAIN cause confusion, by stating I said something different.

As long as you are going to continue to do this Dorcas, I will not again respond to your comments except to say........READ MY POST AGAIN, and then comment.

If I actualy said what YOU are saying....why not use MY WORDS and then reply.

And What did I say differently about the Serpent?

Are you suggesting holding up the serpent in John 3:14 was about PHYSICAL Healing? Did you read ALL of John 3....starting with *YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN*.

Now you are taking one verse out of context in John 3:14 applying it to physical healing, and not Spiritual Healing of which the whole chapter is about.......

Dorcas, not all people are physically healed, as that is God's choice alone. Many people are HURT believing it was their lack of faith that they or their loved one was not physically healed.

I do believe God heals physically...but not 100% of those wanting physical healing.

I do believe 100% of those who come to God through Jesus Christ who repent and receive Him as their Lord and SAVIOR are SPIRITUALLY Healed without exception.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

PS: And personally...before anyone goes around practicing trying to raise the dead, maybe they should practice walking on water first. Didn't Jesus say, if you are faithful in small things, He would give you bigger things to do? Walking on water is nothing compared to raising the dead!!!

DORCAS # 2

SIGNS and WONDERS were preformed not to the believing Church, but to unbelievers attesting to the SON OF GOD, that HE/IS was the Messiah/ Christ, who became flesh and dwelt among us.

John 12:37
[ Who Has Believed Our Report? ] But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,

Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—

Romans 15:19
in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Hebrews 2:3-5
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

Hi again Katy,

I do believe I read your posts and it certainly isn't clear that you agree with Jeanette but welcome that we have general agreement if that's what you thought you were saying.

Here is another interesting tidbit.......Who's faith are we talking about.....the Faith of the Elders or the faith of the Sick person......does it actually say?

Many people are HURT believing it was their lack of faith that they or their loved one was not physically healed.

My reply to your question as to whose faith it is... I believe it is the faith of Jesus Christ. I've said a more about this in the first thread I ever posted on SI called 'Healing - who gets it?' which is actually very inconclusive.

On your point about prayer and faith for the healing of saints, that's an interesting thought. Smith Wigglesworth described what he called 'the gift of faith' as also being one way that healing comes to (it was an unbeliever, a stranger, in his example, I believe) some. I also have had a similar experience, of overwhelming faith for a certain healing, [EDIT: of a saint] which did indeed take place within a couple of hours of praying for it. (That's not the only one, but not all are like that.)

About walking on water rather than raising the dead, I think you're pushing your indignation just a little too far. No-one got healed by walking on water, and Jesus only did it once according to our record. But when He sent the message to John the Baptist that 'dead are raised' I don't believe the few mentioned in the gospels are the only ones, because of the commission He gave the seventy, and, His instruction to 'freely you have received, freely give'.

One question I've been asking in an indirect way to the Lord is 'How do you know which dead to raise?' I think maybe I answered it in my last post to you! As usual, the human mind was looking for a formula... :-o

About walking on water rather than raising the dead, I think you're pushing your indignation just a little too far.

No indignation here. Psalms seems to suggest or mayby I misunderstood that Paul and the Apostles did not do what they did by Jesus Christ.

I do appreciate you said by the faith of Jesus, and not our own power. Peter walked on water, remember, not just Jesus. So if we are to do greater works then these, why not walk on water or move mountains.....Actually Jesus said we would move mountains....have you seen anyone do that?

On the issue of Doctrine, I do believe Jeannette was in agreement with what I was saying to Psalms 1. I didn't take it she was in disagreement with the fact that everything Jesus said and did WAS DOCTRINE.

So yes, doctrine is important.

One question I've been asking in an indirect way to the Lord is 'How do you know which dead to raise?' I think maybe I answered it in my last post to you! As usual, the human mind was looking for a formula...

I do believe Psalms 1 WAS asking for a formula when he asked if there were any books on the subject of raising the dead. So whatever reply to me you gave it was out of my reply to Psalms 1. It does get confusing.

The ONLY group I know who deals and teaches raising people from the dead are from the Benny Hinn crowd. But where are the Headlines for such things.....the interviews with the families. Sounds like BIG News to me, but only word of mouth reports, and it seems as though those who were raised, no one can find.

Do you know Doctors can now raise people from the dead. I'll post an article on this.

Many people have been brought back to life on the operating table without the help of Benny Hinn and Company and they do make the news.

But there are many who have died by "DEATH BY FAITH", one such little boy who was stung by over 200 hornets....his parents denied medical treatment to the child, because of their belief in Faith Healing.

The stories are numerous of malpractice in teh church of Faith healers telling people to stop taking their medicine....

There is something called "Presumptuous sin", that may very well fall into this category that we demand of God and that He is at our beckon call, all because we call out the name of Jesus.

There is another about taking God's name in vain....and it doesn't mean swearing or cursing.

When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, one thing Satan said is "Jump off this mountain...doesn't scripture say that God and His angels will catch you"?

Jesus replied...."Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God".

Let's raise the dead by lifting up the CROSS where those who are DEAD in tresspasses and sin can find LIFE everlasting.

We have a choice NOW while we are alive....Chose Life! There are no second chances to those who have passed away and 6 feet under. It's blasphemy to suggest there is. Lazarus was already a believer, as Jesus used this to show HE IS THE RESURRECTION.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

http://cbs3.com/health/local_story_270203929.html

Yes, and in keeping with this thread, how important is CORRECT DOCTRINE:
See link below:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/healthyself.html

Katy-did wrote:

You did read THIS PART???

If we eliminated homosexual male sex and intravenous drug use, HIV would be reduced by at least three fourths in this country.

I believe there will always be innocent people HURT by the SIN of another!!!!!! But it all boils down to SIN......doesn't it....that was the point.....SIN...SIN...

If a drunk driver KILLED an innocent person, the innocent person dies .....because of someone's SIN...Drunk Driving.

The innocent DO suffer from the sins of their parents.....alcohol fetal syndrome, crack babies.

Whether we like it or not, understand it or not, think it's fair or not, it's a fact….

But you seem to be disputing [i]something[/i] and i still don't know exactly why or what :-?

Except that you think that there is a tendency to soften the Gospel, and understood David's,(Psalm1) remarks to be doing so?

But I still don’t understand why you compared him with Rick Warren, or even perhaps Simon the sorcerer (the fellow who tried to buy the power of the Holy Spirit). I would find such remarks extremely hurtful if said to me, or even implied that I came into that kind of category. Even knowing that you probably don't mean it as harshly as it sounds.

Love in Him

Jeannette[/size]

Except that you think that there is a tendency to soften the Gospel, and understood David's,(Psalm1) remarks to be doing so?

Actually, the Gospel today is being softened, and even done away with through the New Insurgent means and methods of the New Evangelicals, who would perhaps do away with the word SIN all together and call SIN by the name now of disease(s).....not dealt with at Calvary.

Or possibly placing so much more emphasis on our earthly flesh for momentary healings or being raised from the dead, as something more miraculous than the Miracle of our New Birth.

But you seem to be disputing something and i still don't know exactly why or what

I don't think disputing may be the accurate word...maybe disappointed that when the Miracle of our New Birth, our forgivness of Sin, or the Spirit of Life in Christ that has set us free from the Law of sin and death, seem to be taking a back seat, or no seat all here. If you do perchance re-read my posts ...they are all about Jesus Christ and what HE did for us. It doesn't seem to be enough for some! But for US who are Saved and Born Again, it is more than enough, because we know we don't deserve so wonderful a Love as Jesus Dying in our place, taking our wrath upon Him, that we may have eternal Live and be with the Lord forever and forever.

We don't mind the loss of all things if that is what the Lord so chooses for us who are on this earth for such a short time. We freely receive with all humility the blessings In Christ Jesus, the Riches that are in Christ, the world will never see.

We love the Lord for who He is, not what we can get. We love the Giver not the Gift, the blesser not the blessing....because we have been blessed all ready with Heavenly Blessings in Heavenly Places IN CHRIST JESUS! And we give back our lives, to use as He wills, not as we will.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did :-)

Hi Katy,

Psalms seems to suggest or mayby I misunderstood that Paul and the Apostles did not do what they did by Jesus Christ.

We find in Matthew, Mark and Luke, an account of Jesus [i]giving[/i] the twelve [i]authority[/i] over unclean spirits and to heal all kinds of sickness and disease. In Mat 8:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, [u]raise the dead[/u], cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give..." we find raising the dead thrown in with cleansing lepers, healing sick and casting out demons, as if it is no bigger a deal. [i]By its very mention, it cannot be ignored.[/i] At the same time, it cannot be over spiritualised either. [u]These men were unregenerate at the time[/u]. 'Freely you have received' therefore, refers to the commission and the authority, rather than to their salvation [i]per se[/i]. We are a long way from John 17 at this point in the narrative (where Jesus tells His Father He has not lost any of the men He had given to Him).

We have a choice NOW while we are alive....Chose Life! There are no second chances to those who have passed away and 6 feet under. It's blasphemy to suggest there is. Lazarus was already a believer, as Jesus used this to show HE IS THE RESURRECTION.

We all will face a resurrection to judgement after we have died, whether we fall asleep in Jesus or not. The other thing to note about Lazarus' resurrection, is that it was definitely not the first raising-from-the-dead which Jesus had done according to the gospels.

Unlike others though, Lazarus had been buried in the way they do in that part of the world (not buried 6ft under) for four days, so that Martha pointed out that by the time Jesus arrived, his body would be stinking (decomposing). This is exactly what you have said should not be done - give someone who is actually buried, that kind second chance. You've actually called it blasphemy (which is a very strong word). And, we find in the story of Lazarus that Jesus thought otherwise - and did otherwise, by raising him. Therefore, I believe we also should think otherwise, if we are to be able to claim to have His mind.

There are verses in John's gospel, which state this was [i]very much[/i] part of [u]the gospel according to Jesus[/u]. As I read this before posting it, I realised that 'raising the dead' is counterintuitive to natural man, but apart from it having happened in the Old Testament first, it serves as a picture everyone can see of what it is [i]not[/i] to be bound by death.

This is important for two reasons. The first is that it's hard enough to understand what we are saved 'for', 'from' and 'to' - on this earth - and even harder to really understand what eternity is going to be like. But... this is not a picture only for believers. Unbelievers also will face their own resurrection: Jesus here is explaining universal spiritual truths to any and all who would listen. It certainly makes me sit up and pay attention!

John 5:19 - 29
Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, [u]that you may marvel[/u]. [color=006699]For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to [i]them,[/i] even so [u]the Son gives life to whom He will[/u].[/color] For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

EDIT: This is why now, when we are desiring to serve Him, we need to be 'endued with power from on high'. The word for power there, means closer to dynamic than authority. In Luke's gospel, he mentions 'dunamis' [i]and[/i] 'authority', whereas Matthew and Mark record only 'authority'. Without doubt, once Jesus had commissioned the disciples again, after His resurrecton, they had fresh authority. But they still needed the dynamic power. Which comes from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. end EDIT

The ONLY group I know who deals and teaches raising people from the dead are from the Benny Hinn crowd. But where are the Headlines for such things.....the interviews with the families. Sounds like BIG News to me, but only word of mouth reports, and it seems as though those who were raised, no one can find.

In my post above, I've addressed those of your sentences I've quoted. I don't dispute that Jesus came to deal with sin, but that was only one aspect of it. He came to make people whole, also, in ways that would enable them to focus on Him more fully, and serve Him more effectively.

EDIT: I don't mean to make that sound dismissive of what Jesus did about sin, but healing our bodies is part of that work, as I understand His ministry.

Katy-did, One thing i do need to clarify.I DO NOT think all people are to be raised from the dead.But think for a moment about this from another perspective......If a man dies outside of Jesus. His fate is unimmagineable. However, if he is raised from the dead the devil looses.
If I ever do raise the dead I will be 100% scriptural just like my king was when he did it.

Psalms 1, I do know Dorcas and Jeannette will completely encourage you in your wanting to raise the dead, as they seem to have overlooked that actual DOCTRINE in scripture concerning the Resurrection.

This is what I believe, according to the scriptures. So I'm sure, as we post OUR individual beliefs, (and I do have a right to my own as well, without lecture.. Here is where I stand concerning the Resurrection of the dead.

Hebrews 2:
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1 Corinthians 15:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Philippians 3
8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

Hi Katy,

I would greatly appreciate if you would begin to apply to yourself, the strictures you declare fair to apply to others.

Jeanette wrote eloquently about the words and life of Christ being the ultimate true doctrine (soundness being taken for granted, thereby), which you yourself had drawn attention to some pages ago, when you quoted

1 Timothy 6:3
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, [i]even[/i] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,

Now please, [u]if[/u] you believe the Bible at all, please begin to write to us as if you have taken on board that this (1 Tim 6:3) [u]is[/u] a definition of true doctrine - 'the words of our Lord Jesus Christ' which eternally cannot be shaken or in any way pressed out of shape to suit [i]any[/i] one us, including yourself...

because you have written

...as [u]they[/u] seem to have overlooked that actual DOCTRINE in scripture comcerning the Resurrection.

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

This is exactly what you are talking about. I put it in my last post to show I that I do take your concern for that last resurrection seriously.

But, this is only part of the 'resurrection' story, because what John also had quoted before that from Jesus in the same flow of thought, is:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

Because this does not involve graves and bodies, it is possible to spiritualise it completely, but there is no getting away from the fact that what Jesus said about graves and bodies was also what we would call prophetic, because this happened:

Matthew 27
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 [u]Then[/u], behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 [u]and[/u] the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves [u]after His resurrection[/u], they went into the holy city [u]and appeared to many[/u].

How can you say Jesus was not really talking about the resurrection of dead people who had been buried? This is [u]exactly[/u] what is going to happen to [u]all[/u] the saints one day. This is your point.

I would go further than you have probably thought ever, which is to say that there is a measure of resurrection going on in us now, because of His life working in us, as we accept the death of our flesh life (Rom 8:11). The give-away word in that verse is 'mortal', because we all know that once we are raised from the dead, we will have an [u]im[/u]mortal body.

It seems you are missing in your thinking, that what Paul and the other apostles wrote, was because they had a living relationship with the Word of God Himself, through the Holy Spirit.

This is normal for anyone who has received the Holy Spirit - that we do His works. Raising the dead is something about faith being outworked by love, in us, as it was, and is, in Jesus.

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

2 Corinthians 4:14
because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

Ephesians 1:20
which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

This is what is overlooked here, that those IN CHRIST are the ONLY ones who will be called forth into resurrection of LIFE, because it is the very LIFE of Christ In You that is our Hope of GLORY.

Do you actually believe as Psalms 1 is saying that he wants to raise people from the dead who are outside of Christ......what, to give them a second chance? Do you also know the story of the other Lazarus, and a man who was in torment, calling across to those in Abraham's bosom to ask if one could WARN his family, because he knew his family was doomed if they rejected Jesus Christ? That didn't happen did it,either.

You are saying God is a respector of the lost, giving those who are lost and dead, outside of Christ, knowing they are, (because Paul said for Christians...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord) a second chance to receive Him and be born again?

It is appointed for man to ONCE die and then the Judgement.

Dorcas, I do not believe as you do, and even though Jeannette talks about the doctrine of Jesus, Jeannette did not defend the DOCTRINE of Christ that only those IN CHRIST will be resurrected.

Just as Psalms 1 believes his to be Jesus doctrine as well. Not everyone who says they have the Doctrine of Jesus Christ really understand the Doctrine of Jesus Christ.

So once again Dorcas, I do not agree with you or Jeannette or Psalms 1 on your understanding of the Resurrection. I believe scripture concerning the resurrection of those to Life...ARE Those in Christ ONLY, and those who will be resurrected unto comdemnation.who have rejected teh ONLY ONE GOSPEL of SALVATION....TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION....TODAY MEANS TODAY!!! AND THOSE WHO REJECT JESUS CHRIST DOCTRINE OF SALVATION ARE DOOMED TO HELL!

Now, you may feel that is being narrow-minded, or possibly as some again will call me a Calvinist out of ignorance, but only those written in the LAMBS Book of LIFE from the foundation of the world have EVERLASTING....ETERNAL ....***LIFE***

However it is WHOSOEVER will receive Jesus Christ as ...to them and them alone gave He the power to be called the sons of God.

Case Closed!!!! Take it up with the Lord, not me!!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

PS added for CONTENT AND TRUTH...the COLD HARD FACTS

Luke 16:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

psalm1 wrote:
littlegift, hi.. I ment to say that in this particular instance Jesus didnt quote the psalms or prophets. Not to infer that he never did. But I would have to double check.
I dont think it was a quote but i guess it could have been.
Notice, however ,that Jesus IS the WORD OF GOD. So basically WHATEVER he says is scripture.
.....make sense?

......David

When Jesus used healing, raising the dead etc as evidence of His being the Messiah, He did [u]refer to[/u] Isaiah 61 etc, though he didn't always quote or read it word for word (as He read it in Luke 4). John Baptist and his disciples would have known very well the reference to the Isaiah passage and what Jesus was saying when He presented His works of healing etc as evidence.

I think that was the verse you quoted at the beginning, excuse me if I don't go back to the first page - sheer laziness on my part ;_)

Jeannette

I was reading an article on something else and came across this. It was so relevant to my first post on this thread that it seemed good to include it.

A New Testament example of the non-word for word use of (OT) Scripture [Emphasis mine]:

[color=000066]Mark 1:2-3 is a composite of two verses: Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 1:3. [i][b]Mark's quotation is not exact. What he says cannot be found in either Isaiah or Malachi in its totality[/b][/i] (the first part of Mark's quotation is found in Malachi, and the second in Isaiah). [i][b]The two were mixed together by Mark because they were speaking about the same general thing[/b][/i]. As was common in those days, when an author would mix two verses together in one saying, he would attribute the verse to the more prominent prophet; in this case Isaiah. ...It ... falls within the practices of Mark's day. Again, the reason for the addition of "Isaiah" in the NIV, is a textual variant. Other manuscripts do not give the name of any prophet, but simply say the "prophets." The plural form of "prophets" would indicate that the author had more than one verse written in Malachi in mind. It was found in more than one prophet.[/color]

Blessings

Jeannette

Hi Katy,

As you've given me a lot to reply to, forgive any brevity, which is merely a function of time and not mood, please.

I don't know if you've ever heard of a 'time line' or would know what that means... but it is a way of laying out historical events in a straight line, a bit like a subway map, not taking much account of the time between each point but concentrating on putting them in order.

I believe if you could do this with the historical perspective in the gospels, much of your frustration would be allayed, as on many many points of doctrine, I agree with you completely. But... and it is a large matter ... it is not possible to agree with you where you skirt round verses which can mean only what the writer originally meant. Raising the dead is one of these. Real dead people were raised to life, as the scripture says. Whatever it does to your theology and mine, the fact of these accounts cannot be evaded or destroyed.

Jesus said:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28)

You said

This is what is overlooked here, that those IN CHRIST are the ONLY ones who will be called forth into resurrection of LIFE, because it is the very LIFE of Christ In You that is our Hope of GLORY.

Do you actually believe as Psalms 1 is saying that he wants to raise people from the dead who are outside of Christ......

what, to give them a second chance?

Do you also know the story of the other Lazarus, and a man who was in torment, calling across to those in Abraham's bosom to ask if one could WARN his family, because he knew his family was doomed if they rejected Jesus Christ? That didn't happen did it,either.

Jesus is also saying that a man's fate is in his own hands. He will be held accountable for his heart's attitude to truth. It is, therefore, ironic that the rich man should seek permission to rise from the dead to warn his brothers, since not until he was dead and it was too late, did he 'believe'. Jesus says his brothers will not be impressed even by a resurrection.

Later, when the women had seen Jesus alive from the dead, the disciples wouldn't believe them either... these men who themselves had raised the dead! Jesus regularly marvelled at the unbelief in Israel, and perhaps He was actually saying that unless some people have a brush with death, they will not wake up to an understanding of how serious is the choice they must make.

You are saying God is a respector of the lost, giving those who are lost and dead, outside of Christ ... a second chance to receive Him and be born again?

It is appointed for man to ONCE die and then the Judgement.

those who will be resurrected unto comdemnation.who have rejected teh ONLY ONE GOSPEL of SALVATION

only those written in the LAMBS Book of LIFE from the foundation of the world have EVERLASTING....ETERNAL ....***LIFE***

Let me back up that thought with scripture:
Hi Katy,

As you've given me a lot to reply to, forgive any brevity, which is merely a function of time and not mood, please.

I don't know if you've ever heard of a 'time line' or would know what that means... but it is a way of laying out historical events in a straight line, a bit like a subway map, not taking much account of the time between each point but concentrating on putting them in order.

I believe if you could do this with the historical perspective in the gospels, much of your frustration would be allayed, as on many many points of doctrine, I agree with you completely. But... and it is a large matter ... it is not possible to agree with you where you skirt round verses which can mean only what the writer originally meant. Raising the dead is one of these. Real dead people were raised to life, as the scripture says. Whatever it does to your theology and mine, the fact of these accounts cannot be evaded or destroyed.

Jesus said:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28)

You said

This is what is overlooked here, that those IN CHRIST are the ONLY ones who will be called forth into resurrection of LIFE, because it is the very LIFE of Christ In You that is our Hope of GLORY.

Do you actually believe as Psalms 1 is saying that he wants to raise people from the dead who are outside of Christ......

what, to give them a second chance?

Do you also know the story of the other Lazarus, and a man who was in torment, calling across to those in Abraham's bosom to ask if one could WARN his family, because he knew his family was doomed if they rejected Jesus Christ? That didn't happen did it,either.

Jesus is also saying that a man's fate is in his own hands. He will be held accountable for his heart's attitude to truth. It is, therefore, ironic that the rich man should seek permission to rise from the dead to warn his brothers, since not until he was dead and it was too late, did he 'believe'. Jesus says his brothers will not be impressed even by a resurrection.

Later, when the women had seen Jesus alive from the dead, the disciples wouldn't believe them either... these men who themselves had raised the dead! Jesus regularly marvelled at the unbelief in Israel, and perhaps He was actually saying that unless some people have a brush with death, they will not wake up to an understanding of how serious is the choice they must make.

You are saying God is a respector of the lost, giving those who are lost and dead, outside of Christ ... a second chance to receive Him and be born again?

It is appointed for man to ONCE die and then the Judgement.

those who will be resurrected unto comdemnation.who have rejected teh ONLY ONE GOSPEL of SALVATION

only those written in the LAMBS Book of LIFE from the foundation of the world have EVERLASTING....ETERNAL ....***LIFE***

Let me back up that thought with scripture: Deuternonomy 32:32.

When reading that verse, please remember that Moses was offering himself, in a foreshadow of the way that Christ offered Himself, and of Christ [u]is[/u] made a mighteir nation: those born again.

Re: To go back to the original topic

LittleGift quoted an article

'...because they were speaking about the same general thing. As was common in those days ...'

Thus the original reads:

Isaiah 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

compared with the New Covenant rendering:

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.]

This is one good example of a prophet writing up to the level of his understanding and revelation consistent with God's dealings with him and his nation, of which I see many such examples in the Old Testament. It was beyond the comprehension of most of them, to take into their thinking, that God Himself was going to come one day, and fulfil their part in their salvation. Up to that time it was unheard of... the salvation they experienced under God was all (it appeared to them) of their own efforts.

It is a very fine dividing line still, between how we perceive our choice to turn from ungodliness, and how we perceive our bondage to sin which means we can [i]never[/i] be right with God [u]apart from Christ's effort[/u]\\work [i]on our behalf[/i].

It is this kind of quote from Paul, which underlines just how much his former thinking was dashed to pieces by his encounter with Jesus, while at the same time it necessirly could retain the skeleton of absolute truth God had been speaking to Israel for centuries.

David, I'm with you all the way. I think you're doing a fine job of putting into words what you would like to see put into the good works for which saints have been saved, which have been prepared for them from eternity.

'Jesus basis for authenticicity was the miracles he did not necessisarily scripture.
Although I am NOT saying that Jesus was not authenticated by his fullfillment of scripture.'

Amen.

Matthew 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (Also Luke 10:13)

John 14:11
Believe me that I in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost...

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [i]art[/i] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: [u]that the world may believe that thou hast sent me[/u].

This is what MikeB is writing about in his new thread in Articles and Sermons - 'Not a Trivial Pursuit':

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19974&forum=34&2]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19974&forum=34&2[/url]

The Spirit is trying to get something through to us, I believe, about being part of the 'one body' of Ephesians 4. We need each other.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19993&forum=35&5]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19993&forum=35&5[/url]

Psalms 1 and Dorcas,

Let me try to understand what you are saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong......( also taking into account Dorcas's Comments)

I know you don't think scripture is that important, however I do.

First I would like to know other than the Gospels where Jesus commanded US...right now to raise the dead? I know we are called to preach the Gospel to all nations.

If Dorcas seems to think when you say raise the dead, it does not really mean literally raising the dead out of graves, but something possible to the definition of Salvation, or a Born Again experience ( SAlvation...Regeneration).....do you actually believe YOU can go around and *Command God* to save people? Or do you actually think YOU are God saving people...or don't you believe Jesus Christ IS God.....but an example we are just to immitate?

What about Free Will? Now I know Calvinists believe God picked out just so many to be saved, and all else are lost...(I believe in Whosoever will...however God knows who will and who won't)...but, even along the lines of a Calvinist.....if God all ready chose them to life...He doesn't need you or anyone else to COMMAND their being raised up in newness of Life.

That Choice to be raised up together with Christ a New Creation is the Gospel of Whosoever Will believe Jesus Died for their Sin...and they personally have put their faith in Jesus Christ. YOU can't command that on anyone...or command God to force that on anyone.

Now, if you are wanting to raise people from the dead, because they need to see a miracle to believe Jesus really is God.....BEFORE THEY make a decision to believe on Him, YOU STLL CAN"T COMMAND anything.

Even Jesus doesn't COMMAND anyone to be saved against their will.

So Psalms 1 and Dorcas, I don't need to see a timeline that you seem to feel will alleviate my frustration about your not understanding the Gospel. I'm not frustrated with my understanding, but frustrated (not anymore really) that you are not living TODAY....where TODAY is the day of Salvation....no time lines needed to understand. Jesus rose from the dead, Sits at the right hand of the Father, the sacrifice for sin has been paid....and the rest is left up to you to have and receive a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Dorcas, people who have that personal relationship with Jesus Christ have no need to TIME LINE Him.....He's Alive right now....Christ IN YOU...the Hope of Glory.

Dorcas, all your points in explaining what you think the scripture mean that I posted, I totally disagree with your understanding. ( That's why I said I'm not frustrated anymore....I really see the differences in our beliefs...Mine are grounded in the OT and Covenants of Promise.

Please Read:
Ephesians 2:11-13

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ

It would help you to understand the Gospel if you did take these scriptures very seriously.

And only those in the OT who were raised were all ready saved according to the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. ( They all ready lived By faith in the Coming REDEEMER!!) They didn't need to be reaised for those reasons, what ever thay may be, you seem to think they were raised for.

But that's for another thread at another time.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

psalm1 wrote:
Littlegift, Hi, I went back and read Isa.61 and couldnt find any dead raised ,blind see ,deaf hear statements. But the reason I referred to this statement by Jesus to John is that John was asking for authenticity.
Jesus basis for authenticicity was the miracles he did not necessisarily scripture.
Although I am NOT saying that Jesus was not authenticated by his fullfillment of scripture.
I say all this to make a point....How do the lost know Jesus is alive? Through the miracles he does.
Or...to say it another way .If Jesus is alive wont signs and wonders still follow him?
....David
Does this make sense?

I was so focussed on the fact that the things that Jesus did were recognised signs of the Messiah that I didn't remember that not all the signs were found in any one OT passage.

Another Bible reference is in Isaiah 35, in verses 5-6, and 19, which does refer to raising the dead. Except it seems to be referring to the general resurrection at the Return of the Lord.

[color=330066][i]5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.[/i][/color]

And yet, Jesus said to Mary, [i]"I am the resurrection and the life..."[/i] (John 11), and proceeded to prove it by raising Lazarus.

You could say that Jesus, by His actions, was extending the meaning and "re-interpreting" the OT.

It's very similar to the way Peter used the scripture at Pentecost, to compare what was happening with Joel's prophecy. Even though Joel spoke of things that didn't happen at Pentecost, and omitted things that did, Pete still said, "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel"!

Excuse the mistake.

Blessings

Jeannette[/size]

Psalms 1 and DorcasPart 2

This is what WE have to OBEY from our own INDIVIDUAL heart, no one can command we do so...

Romans 6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7 explains the difference between flesh and Spirit, that we have 2 natures now that we are Born Again.

And Romans 8 explains the RESURRECTION UNTO LIFE IN CHRIST, AS WE LIVE EACH AND EVERY DAY.

No one can command this LIFE IN CHRIST on anyone. It's a GIFT from God, that each person who receives, will receive the GIFT of Salvation.

This is what the COVENANT*S* of Promise are all about.

GIFTS aren't forced or COMMANDED on anyone....or else it's not a GIFT!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Katy said:

I know you don't think scripture is that important, however I do.

Maybe we're reading different threads? :-?

Where do either Dorcas or Psalm1 say or even imply that they don't think Scripture is "that important"???

I haven't read the rest of your post on this but you really seem to have got totally the wrong idea here.

Love in Him

Jeannette

Katy, how on earth did you get that impression?

By comments like these:

Quote by Dorcas:

David, I'm with you all the way. I think you're doing a fine job of putting into words what you would like to see put into the good works for which saints have been saved, which have been prepared for them from eternity.

Quote by David:

To this day I wrestle with this concept.How do I give them Jesus? All I know at this point Is I need to be"real".I also believe I need to walk in Love.
How can Jesus give a dead baby made whole back to his mama except through you and me?
It looks like I am against quoting scripture but I am only wanting the scripture comming from my mouth to be comming from a REAL person.
The "red letters of the bible seem to rebuke my very core.

Quote by Jesus:

Matthew 4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4But he answered and said, ***[b][color=CC0000]IT IS WRITTEN[/color][/b]***, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for [b][color=CC0000]IT IS WRITTEN[/color][/b], He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7Jesus said unto him, [b][color=CC0000]IT IS WRITTEN[/color][/b]again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for [b][color=CC0000]IT IS WRITTEN[/color][/b], Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

The WORD of God is Living and powerful and sharper than a TWO EDGE SWORD:

We take that SWORD into Battle. Ephesians 6

Our paraphrasing has no power, but God’s WORD does. As you see when Jesus was tempted by Satan , Jesus didn’t paraphrase.

HE QUOTED SCTIPTURE!

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

PS: [b][color=CC0000]IT IS WRITTEN[/color][/b]
it doesn't need to be re-written...and there is a curse on those(Revelation) who would feel free to take the liberty to do so. That doesn't apply to the Book of Revelation only, but ALL of God's Word.

psalm1 wrote:
Katy, you gotta admit,even though i get on your last nerve.....I think you are having fun.
.....David

ps. yes we do dissagree.

I just wish Katy and Dorcas would write shorter and less confusing posts, then maybe I would have time to read them more carefully, and even perhaps understand what they are actually saying :-?

in Him

Jeannette

Katy-did wrote:

Katy, how on earth did you get that impression?

By comments like these:

Quote by Dorcas:

David, I'm with you all the way. I think you're doing a fine job of putting into words what you would like to see put into the good works for which saints have been saved, which have been prepared for them from eternity.

Quote by David:

To this day I wrestle with this concept.How do I give them Jesus? All I know at this point Is I need to be"real".I also believe I need to walk in Love.
How can Jesus give a dead baby made whole back to his mama except through you and me?
It looks like I am against quoting scripture but I am only wanting the scripture comming from my mouth to be comming from a REAL person.
The "red letters of the bible seem to rebuke my very core.

Quote by Jesus:

***[b][color=CC0000]IT IS WRITTEN[/color][/b]***,

The WORD of God is Living and powerful and sharper than a TWO EDGE SWORD:

We take that SWORD into Battle. Ephesians 6

Our paraphrasing has no power, but God’s WORD does. As you see when Jesus was tempted by Satan , Jesus didn’t paraphrase.

HE QUOTED SCTIPTURE!

If you follow that argument through it must be that the NT writers contradicted Scripture because they didn't always quote it word for word.

And Jesus contradicted Himself, because He didn't [i][u]always[/u][/i] quote it word for word either.

This discussion is becoming ridiculous!

Katy-did wrote:

Katy, how on earth did you get that impression?

By comments like these:

Quote by Dorcas:

David, I'm with you all the way. I think you're doing a fine job of putting into words what you would like to see put into the good works for which saints have been saved, which have been prepared for them from eternity.

Quote by David:

To this day I wrestle with this concept.How do I give them Jesus? All I know at this point Is I need to be"real".I also believe I need to walk in Love.
How can Jesus give a dead baby made whole back to his mama except through you and me?
It looks like I am against quoting scripture but I am only wanting the scripture comming from my mouth to be comming from a REAL person.
The "red letters of the bible seem to rebuke my very core.

To me these quotes mean nothing like you seem to think they mean :-?

Love in Him

Jeannette

dorcas wrote:

Re: To go back to the original topic

LittleGift quoted an article

'...because they were speaking about the same general thing. As was common in those days ...'

This probably explains what I noticed recently, when I tried to find the exact form of works which Paul had used in Romans 11, and couldn't, because he had reversed the preposition from 'to' to 'from'.

Thus the original reads:

Isaiah 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

compared with the New Covenant rendering:

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.]

The difference is probably because the Septuagint (Greek OT translation) was commonly used in those days, while most of our English translations are direct from the Hebrew. Apparently many NT quotes of the OT are directly from that version not the Hebrew.

Also, we would need to know the original Hebrew, whose grammar is very different from English, to decide which version is nearest the Hebrew meaning.

Although, come to think of it, both versions are true! Jesus did "come to Zion" literally, and spiritually He now comes FROM Zion...

blessings

Jeannette

Jeannette, Your original question on this thread is about paraphrasing scripture or Quoting scripture, and is there a difference and what is the importance.

I have given my answers, and am answering questions asked concerning these 2 ways to learn and understand how to handle the word of truth.

We are to study to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth, as did Jesus in the Wilderness when confronted by Satan.

We too must know how to handle the Word.

Jesus never contradicted himself, as Jesus IS the WORD of God.

It's our understanding of possibly WRONGLY dividing the Word, that it may look as though there are contradictions...but there are not.

Take the belief of Mary as the Queen of Heaven, or the teaching of the Catholic Church of the Assumption of Mary. Now the Catholic Church believes they have scripture to back that up. But do they really? Or have they mis-applied scriptures? And just how seriously do they believe this, and is this teaching DANGEROUS? Or how about their teaching about pergetory, or limbo, and how many have actually believed this...is it dangerous? Yes!!!

Or Mormons who use scripture in 1st Corinthians 15 to Baptize people for the dead....

Those who know the Word, and know what that means know how wrong their teaching is.

We also can rightly divide the Word of Truuth when Mormons talk about Jesus, and many Christians now saying we are the same....but are we really? Isn't their Jesus Satan's brother? yes, so is their Jesus the Jesus of Scripture? How do you know He is or isn't.....isn't it by Knowing Scripture?

God Bless,...and my last words here are ...."STAY IN THE WORD", in season and out!!! Rebuke, reproof, if necessary.

Jesus said, My Words are Spirit and they are Life, so one must be Born of the Spirit to even understand and hear what God is talking about to begin with.

The Human mind can think they know what it says, and that is why there is so many divisions and arguments. But we are to speak the SAME thing, and mind the Same things.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

Katy-did wrote:
Jeannette, Your original question on this thread is about paraphrasing scripture or Quoting scripture, and is there a difference and what is the importance.

I have given my answers, and am answering questions asked concerning these 2 ways to learn and understand how to handle the word of truth.

We are to study to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the word of truth, as did Jesus in the Wilderness when confronted by Satan.

We too must know how to handle the Word.

Jesus never contradicted himself, as Jesus IS the WORD of God.

It's our understanding of possibly WRONGLY dividing the Word, that it may look as though there are contradictions...but there are not.

Take the belief of Mary as the Queen of Heaven, or the teaching of the Catholic Church of the Assumption of Mary. Now the Catholic Church believes they have scripture to back that up. But do they really? Or have they mis-applied scriptures? And just how seriously do they believe this, and is this teaching DANGEROUS? Or how about their teaching about pergetory, or limbo, and how many have actually believed this...is it dangerous? Yes!!!

Or Mormons who use scripture in 1st Corinthians 15 to Baptize people for the dead....

Those who know the Word, and know what that means know how wrong their teaching is.

We also can rightly divide the Word of Truuth when Mormons talk about Jesus, and many Christians now saying we are the same....but are we really? Isn't their Jesus Satan's brother? yes, so is their Jesus the Jesus of Scripture? How do you know He is or isn't.....isn't it by Knowing Scripture?

God Bless,...and my last words here are ...."STAY IN THE WORD", in season and out!!! Rebuke, reproof, if necessary.

Jesus said, My Words are Spirit and they are Life, so one must be Born of the Spirit to even understand and hear what God is talking about to begin with.

The Human mind can think they know what it says, and that is why there is so many divisions and arguments. But we are to speak the SAME thing, and mind the Same things.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

Does anyone disagree with anything you say here? I doubt it! So why do you say it as if maybe we do???

I know it's because of your zeal for Truth but you so often seem to be attacking the wrong targets, beating the air. Or hitting people over the head with the Word, when they have probably said nothing to deserve it!

**********************************************************

Re paraphrasing, I explained (probably in a pm) what I meant by "paraphrase", and you agreed that you had misunderstood.

You yourself, early in this thread, paraphrased something from John 6, yet now you are again saying it's wrong!

In fact your paraphrase wasn't quite correct in giving the sense of the passage, but I didn't comment because it was true to Scripture, even though that wasn't quite what the words in John were saying.

in Him

Jeannette

Jeannette, here is a perfect example of what happens when someone para-phrases God's Word.

The WOF people say that God created the World by faith....that it took *faith* for God to do this, and that power is in Faith (Not in God)

This is why WOF teachers believe that your FAITH is yor power for healing or any name it claim it you want. If you didn't get it or didn't get healed, it was because you didn't have enough FAITH.

But if you carefully read these scriptures you will see that Scripture teaches no such thing.

By faith WE BELIEVE God Created the World. Because so many go for those who paraphrase rather then look it up and QUOTE EXACTLY as God placed those words, many will in these last days be deceived by the para-phrasers.

There can be no more perfect example than this, as these teachers have wrecked much havoc through out the world, as was the Testimony of one such on this Site telling a story about when David Wilkerson went into Russia, and how the people thought God had abandoned them,(The WOF teachers were there first) because they just didn't get what they were told they would get......Heaven on earth!

So, this is why I believe we need to KNOW God's Word, to repell false doctrine, and save numerous suffering souls as was David Wilkerson's Sermon to them as he brought them the TRUTH out of the Scriptures. Our Faith is in Jesus Christ, and His finished work on the Cross....not faith in faith.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith *****we understand****** that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

:-)

Katy-did wrote:
Jeannette, here is a perfect example of what happens when someone para-phrases God's Word...

Love in Him

Jeannette

Katy said:

so many go for those who paraphrase rather then look it up and QUOTE [u]EXACTLY as God placed those words[/u]...

No-one on this thread is a Catholic or a Mormon or WOF or into any other gross error that I know of. Neither is anyone suggesting that we "paraphrase" everything, or that it isn't important to rightly interpret the Word.

So why are you keeping on about errors that don't apply?

You still haven't answered that question, which has been asked several times in different ways.

It's nearly 1am here

so Good Night, sleep well

Jeannette

Dear Katy,

I refer to your posts on p8, but not in order.

So Psalms 1 and Dorcas, I don't need to see a timeline that you seem to feel will alleviate my frustration about your not understanding the Gospel.

But it is possible, nowadays, to pick bits and pieces from that methodical presentation on which God slowly built the disciples' understanding in real multi-dimensional life, as if the bits which [u]we[/u] don't mention are of no relevance. You are always saying how every written word is relevant. Not one of us disputes this. But, I maintain that there is a need to ponder the [i]fact[/i] of Jesus doing certain things before certain others, [i]saying[/i] certain things before certain others, and the final [u]forward focus[/u] with which He left the disciples when He ascended. Or, the word of God is not used to its best advantage. It is not ammunition for a virtual spray-gun.

To be clearer then, when I refer to 'the gospel', I am not talking about an eclectic selection of Bible verses only, I am talking about the news that what Jesus did and what is available through faith (and baptism in the Holy Spirit) [i][b]today[/i][/b], is that we - believers - have a very simple remit from Him, (spelled out by the apostles' writings now called the New Testament), which is to do our Father's will.

Embodied in that invitation, is [u]all[/u] that we need to grasp to understand what salvation requires of [i]us[/i], if we are to obtain it [u]in the end[/u].

Laid out in the New Testament through the gospels, is an account of the way Jesus spoke to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and its leaders and rulers, as well as a demonstration of the word of God in power. He ministered to all who would ask from Him, regardless of their social status or need, at the same time as preparing His heart and mind to die for all of mankind - hypocrites, murderers, torturers, liars and all.

I am greatly challenged by this brand of love.

This is what David began to talk about, about which I agree with him. The idea you have, that living out the life of God in my flesh, (Rom 8:11), is somehow a corollary to

know you don't think scripture is that important, however I do.

However, perhaps I found some understanding in your post which said (after quoting the temptations of Christ in Matthew 4):

The WORD of God is Living and powerful and sharper than a TWO EDGE SWORD:

We take that SWORD into Battle. Ephesians 6

Our paraphrasing has no power, but God’s WORD does. As you see when Jesus was tempted by Satan , Jesus didn’t paraphrase.

HE QUOTED SCTIPTURE!

While I agree with you that it's vital to know exactly what scripture 1) says and 2) means, I cannot agree that it can only be presented to other people in that form. To some, it is the equivalent of giving them a frozen dinner which has not been through the microwave yet. It's unpalatable and meaningless. They cannot eat it like that and therefore, they go away hungry.

A person who understands how the frozen meal has been constructed and balanced, is not afraid to present it in a ready-to-eat format; (because) the ingredients are not changed, by making them palatable.

Of course the word of God is always edible, but you don't give french fries to newborn, for instance, because that might kill them, rather than feed them. Wisdom, patience, and time on an appropriate diet will make all the difference to a person growing into one who can tackle the entire freezer with confidence, (understanding the difference between a child's meal and a banquet for adults).

Dorcas, this is what I am saying:

Dorcas,

These( John 14:26) were some of the last words Jesus said to His Disciples:

Many things they didn’t spiritually understand until the Holy Spirit enlightened them…..

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now the Word of God has many facets.

1. One for warefare:
Ephesians 6:
10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

2. One for our Personal Growth in His precious Promises to be partakers of His Divine Nature:
2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

One to also let us know that these things taught to those In Christ can only be heard by those IN CHRIST……the Spiritual Man, not the Natural Man. This also goes back to the original words of Jesus in John 14:26…..

1 Corinthians 2
1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Now there are different stages of Growth in the Christian Life,
They are:
1.\tBabies – 1 Peter 2:2
1st Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

2.\tChildren
12:I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13: I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
18:Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

3.\tYoung men
13:I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one.
14: I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

4. Fathers:
14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning.
1 John 2:12-19 All Together:
Sta12I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

13I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

So, the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance all things Jesus has Said.
1.\t We are forgiven of our Sin –
This CHILDREN know.
2.\t Those in Christ Have Eternal Life – CHILDREN KNOW
3.\t
4.\tWe are warned against false teachers and anti-christs - CHILDREN are warned.
Moving on to Maturity IN CHRIST
5.\tWe do battle with Satan and are told in Ephesians how to Handle ourselves. YOUNG MEN
13:I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one.
14: I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

WOW!!!! HE THAT OVERCOMES!!!!
Fathers , as Paul said….though you have 10,000 teachers but not many Fathers, be ye followers of Me the way I am of Christ……

How do we grow into Maturity being conformed to His Image?
6.\tWe are partakers of His Divine Nature through His precious Promises.

It’s the Holy Spirit who quickens the Word of God within us, strengthening us with MIGHT in the Inner Man ( Ephesians 3)….

And we reach the end of Ephesians 3…..that It’s GOD who does abundantly above all that WE could possibly ask or think according to HIS POWER that works within.

Now Dorcas, many believe in their eternal Security, and have found those promises in God's Word. Yet many believe they have to work until the end and endure till the end and that determines their salvation.

So, to say we all believe the same is not true. If someone who DID NOT believe in their eternal security tells me I have to do this or that, then I will show him where this or that is law...not Grace. And really, if one wanted to get even deeper in these discusssions, that is the pivotal point where many cannot agree on many issues that stem from these two points.

With that said, I believe this is the root of many and most argument, that cannot be resolved. Law vs Grace.

Love In Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

Katy said:

many believe in their eternal Security, and have found those promises in God's Word. Yet many believe they have to work until the end and endure till the end and that determines their salvation.

So, to say we all believe the same is not true. If someone who DID NOT believe in their eternal security tells me I have to do this or that, then I will show him where this or that is law...not Grace. And really, if one wanted to get even deeper in these discusssions, that is the pivotal point where many cannot agree on many issues that stem from these two points.

With that said, I believe this is the root of many and most argument, that cannot be resolved. Law vs Grace.

I know you spoke to Dorcas specifically, but can I ask whether you believe in eternal security or not? I think you said elsewhere that you don't agree with Calvinism; but here you seem to be saying more or less the opposite...

And what is the purpose of the Scriptures you quoted? Precious, and so very true and wonderful, but how are they connected with the present discussion? :-?

I'm not being deliberately difficult or opposing you but trying to understand what you mean...

Love in Him

Jeannette

Good Morning Jeannette,

Please don't be offended by what I am about to say, and maybe we can come to an understanding for all here.

When there was a discussion on the Matthew 24 Thread, I posted the Gospel, based on the Covenant Promises. I also declared Matthew 24 was speaking specifically to Jews, as it said..
"Pray your flight does not take place on the Sabbath"....also stating Gentiles were never under Sabbath Law, and to look more fully at the Chapter as a whole.

In Matthew 24, there is a verse......go to the Holy Place.....Did you find it?

Now, What I originally posted was exactly that...WHERE the Holy Place exists....in the Holy of Holies...thought the Blood of Jesus Christ....Using Hebrews as my point of reference. Please go back to my original post on the Matthew 24 thread, and re-read.

Instead of being delighted in the Truth of the Gospel....You came back with a strange reply about being a Calvinist....

I replied back that I was not a Calvinist, but a Born Again Jew.

That Born Again Jews KNOW their Covenant Promises has nothing what so ever to do with Calvinism. I've stated many times on these threads what and why I disagree with Calvinism.

Calvinism believes no one can come to the place of Saving Faith unless they are first regenerated (Saved...Born Again) to do so. There is no scripture to back that up.

I believe in Who so ever Will may come.....a very important difference...and based on that one point alone, all the other points fall off the TULIP.

Now just because Calvinists believe in Eternal Security...doesn't mean they completely understand the Covenants of Promise.....

Salvation if OF the Jews,(Based on the Covenant made with Abraham) ....I will look up this scripture if you would like...Jesus plainly said it in the Gospels.

Also, Galatians states....that the blessings of Abraham will come to the Gentiles. The whole book of Galatians is Grace vs Law. (Not Calvinism vs Armenianism) however many would like to see it that way.

The Blessing or Promise that was to come was the promise of the Holy Spirit..... I will also post these verses as well if you would like....

In stating my belief that we believe in the promises of God let me say this.

When God promised Abraham a son, Abraham believed God, and God accounted it to him as righteousness....This is stated many times in scripture. Abraham did not have to *work for that promise*, but believe that what God said He would do God would bring to pass.

Now, remember, I'm sure Abrahan and Sarah would have always wanted a son, but emember the promise first came from God.....Abrahan didn't just say...I want a son, I'm going to faith it into happening. That is the wrong kind of Faith.
That is faith in faith.

Our faith is in GOD's Word...His Promises.

Now, that promise was specifically to Abraham correct....but look at John 3:16...that promise is to ALL. Praise God!!!

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

:-D

[Katy wrote]

Good Morning Jeannette,

Please don't be offended by what I am about to say..."

I’m sure that others besides Calvinists believe in eternal security but couldn’t understand what [i]you[/i] were saying you believe.

[EDIT] added bit: **Actually I realise that i never really thought about it one way or the other - the only people I've come across before who believe in eternal security have been Calvinists. See longer post to follow**[EDIT]

Your last post does begin to make more sense – at last!

Maybe I’m just thick :oops: :-?

Love in Him

Jeannette

Katy wrote

In Matthew 24, there is a verse......go to the Holy Place.....Did you find it?

not “go to the holy place”

Now, What I originally posted was exactly that...WHERE the Holy Place exists....in the Holy of Holies...thought the Blood of Jesus Christ....Using Hebrews as my point of reference.

Instead of being delighted in the Truth of the Gospel....You came back with a strange reply about being a Calvinist....

I replied back that I was not a Calvinist, but a Born Again Jew.
That Born Again Jews KNOW their Covenant Promises has nothing what so ever to do with Calvinism. I've stated many times on these threads what and why I disagree with Calvinism.

[u]It never occurred to me until now that you believe in eternal security without being a Calvinist![/u]

So you seemed to be contradicting yourself! I now realise that you weren't, but it wasn't at all clear from your posts.

I’m not a Calvinist either, but the Lord said to me years ago, when I was doubting my salvation, “I will never leave you nor forsake you”. So I suppose I believe in my own eternal security because He said so :-)

But I never realised that anyone else believed in their eternal security unless they were Calvinists, or the Lord had spoken specifically to them as He did to me!

Calvinism believes no one can come to the place of Saving Faith unless they are first regenerated (Saved...Born Again) to do so. There is no scripture to back that up.

I believe in Who so ever Will may come.....a very important difference...and based on that one point alone, all the other points fall off the TULIP.

Now just because Calvinists believe in Eternal Security...doesn't mean they completely understand the Covenants of Promise.....

Salvation is OF the Jews,(Based on the Covenant made with Abraham) ....I will look up this scripture if you would like...Jesus plainly said it in the Gospels.

Also, Galatians states....that the blessings of Abraham will come to the Gentiles. The whole book of Galatians is Grace vs Law. (Not Calvinism vs Armenianism) however many would like to see it that way

The Blessing or Promise that was to come was the promise of the Holy Spirit..... I will also post these verses as well if you would like....

In stating my belief that we believe in the promises of God let me say this.

When God promised Abraham a son, Abraham believed God, and God accounted it to him as righteousness....This is stated many times in scripture. Abraham did not have to *work for that promise*, but believe that what God said He would do God would bring to pass.

Now, remember, I'm sure Abrahan and Sarah would have always wanted a son, but emember the promise first came from God.....Abrahan didn't just say...I want a son, I'm going to faith it into happening. That is the wrong kind of Faith.
That is faith in faith.

Our faith is in GOD's Word...His Promises.

Now, that promise was specifically to Abraham correct....but look at John 3:16...that promise is to ALL. Praise God!!!

But I have learned something new from this discussion – that it’s possible to believe in eternal security (apart from a personal experience such as I had) without falling headfirst into the dreaded TULIP :lol:

Sorry to be so slow to realise that – it would have saved a lot of confusion all around!

Love in Him

Jeannette

The only problem has been that you seemed to be trying to teach us things we already know and believe, as if we didn’t know or didn’t believe them.

But I have learned something new from this discussion – that it’s possible to believe in eternal security (apart from a personal experience such as I had) without falling headfirst into the dreaded TULIP

Jeannette, there are Many Bible believing Christians who have a most personal relationship with the Lord who believe in Eternal Security and are not Calvinists. Those promises are based solely in the Covenants of promise, and tht took place long before Calvin came on the scene....and many found that security long before the 1500's.

I am delighted that you learned something here.

It never occurred to me until now that you believe in eternal security without being a Calvinist!

I did state this on the Matthew 24 Watch.

Yes, Jesus died for my bad spelling too...He loves me anyway...and so much so, never would use to embarass, as we all have shortcomings and disabilities.

Love covers a multitude of Sins....

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

Bless you, Katy!

The spelling isn't a problem, only I never understood before what you were talking about re this subject. And some of the posts were so long and involved that I more or less gave up on the Matthew 24 thread.

You said:

there are Many Bible believing Christians who have a most personal relationship with the Lord who believe in Eternal Security and are not Calvinists. Those promises are based solely in the Covenants of promise, and tht took place long before Calvin came on the scene....and many found that security long before the 1500's.

I admit that I never linked Covenant with eternal security, because most Bible covenants are conditional, (except for one or two, such as with Noah, that the earth would never again be destroyed with a flood...) So that if either side broke the covenant then it becomes void, so fails to give such security.

The subject of covenant is huge, and it would be good to hear different perspectives and understandings on it.

Care to start a thread on it?

Maybe we'd better check first to what extent it's already been covered.

I do know of the Jewish concept of the Noahide covenant that is for all people, as opposed to the covenant of circumcision, which is to the Jewish people (or prostelytes) only.

And of course we are now in the New Covenant, and the fulfillment of the Promise to Abraham that in his Seed all nations would be blessed...

*************************************************

Started me thinking how I would approach the topic...

Beer-sheba comes to mind - the well of the Oath. Don't know why, because it doesn't seem to be beginning at the beginning...

Mmmmm

Love in Him

Jeannette

I admit that I never linked Covenant with eternal security, because most Bible covenants are conditional, (except for one or two, such as with Noah, that the earth would never again be destroyed with a flood...) So that if either side broke the covenant then it becomes void, so fails to give such security.

I don’t want to start a thread on the Covenants of Promise, but will post here to show you where eternal security IS in the Covenants of Promise.

(I will be away for a while visiting my son ….so here goes this response now) .

Jeannette, Hebrews is a great place to start with the New Covenant and Everlasting Covenant promises.

Yes, there are many Covenants and many different teachings on Covenants. And you are correct that some teach these as conditional.

However, the New Covenant, and Everlasting Covenant are not a conditional covenant based, "if" in the way that the Law of Moses was based.....because, Jesus fulfilled the Law, and now those "In Christ", have that Law written in their heart.

Psalms says, the secrets of the Lord are with those who fear Him, and He will Show them His Covenant.

As we Grow in the Grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ...He does just that!

The New Covenant is based on [i][b]Better Promises[/b][/i]. That is the [i][b]key[/b][/i] word in Hebrews[i][b]Better Promises[/b][/i]. Better than what? Better than anything you can possibly imagine.

Ephesians 2:11-13
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

So many overlook this verse in Hebrews 6.….that chapter that many say you can lose your salvation????

But if read through,

Hebrews
6:9
9But, beloved, we are persuaded [i][b]Better [/b][/i]things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Hebrews 6:16-18
16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

The Covenants of Promise were sealed in the Blood of Jesus Christ. (From [i][b]before[/b][/i] the Foundation of the World) a Covenant between Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Here we have the understanding of the Word SURITY. Also can look it up...Andrew Murray has an excellent article on the [i][b]Surity[/b][/i]of the Covenant.

Genesis 43:9
I myself will be surety for him; from my hand you shall require him. If I do not bring him back to you and set him before you, then let me bear the blame forever.

Genesis 44:32
For your servant became surety for the lad to my father, saying, ‘If I do not bring him back to you, then I shall bear the blame before my father forever.’

Hebrews 7:21-23
21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22By so much was Jesus made a [i][b]Surity [/b][/i]of a better Testament/Covenant.

Now look at the verses that say …“within the veil” and “through the veil“.

When we enter within the veil or through the veil we enter into the Holy of Holies, when we identify with Jesus in death and resurrection life. The New and [i][b]Living[/b][/i] way is…Romans 6-8.

Added for content:
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

And Galatians 2:20 & 21.….I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
( Galatians 2:20&21) This is Grace….the [i][b]Spirit[/b][/i] of Grace…of which Hebrews 10 speaks of….

Hebrews 10: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Again, many take this to be a warning one can lose their salvation….but that is not what the Chapter is about….No more sacrifice for sin was the warning to Jews who were sitting on the fence undecided about keeping Law…the old way of sacrifice through animal sacrifice…or completely putting their faith in Jesus Christ *****who once and for all ***** became that final sacrifice. If you read all of Hebrews 10 completely through…this is the main subject matter. AND we know in Thessalonians that God Vengeance is coming to those who have rejected the Gospel.

The Blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified….WOW! Yes even our sanctification is covered here.

What does Peter say:
1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied

Hebrews 6:16-18
16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 10:19-21
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;

Jeannette, For me these great and Precious promises through the Blood of Jesus Christ are YES and AMEN. I will post here, and will say no more then this. For me it is most sacred, and not to be argued, or picked apart. We stand on the Promises of God, believing what He said He will do , He will do.

Hebrews 13:
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Because this Glory belongs to Jesus Christ all I can say is YES and AMEN because it‘s TRUE!!!! Our Eternal Security is in Jesus Christ and His finished work upon the Cross.

This is what John 3:16 [i][b]is all about[/b][/i]!!!!

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

God Bless

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

:-) [i][b]Better[/b][/i]