WHY I LEFT the Prophetic Movement by Andrew Strom (book review)

If the man was there and participated in what he describes in the book should the church just say oh well it's something tht happens in every revival or move of God or something similiar along those lines? The movement, probably somewhat pure and well intentioned at the beginning, came straight out of the charismatic church. I brushed shoulders with the prophetic movement so I'm not totally unfamiliar with what was going on. Do we as charismatics have the courage to ask the hard questions? I'm not preaching, I'm just somewhat frustrated. In all of these "silly and dry denominational churches" I have looked down my nose at in times past you don't see these kind of unbiblical excesses. Mr. Strom has posed some very relevant and pertinent questions in his book in my opinion

It's getting late,

"Doc"

i've pondered this thread ever since it was posted, and kinda went back and forth as to whether to post my feelings about it, as it hits pretty close to home in my own Christian walk (thus far) and life ... i know in my spirit that i am just about at the close of "one season"
and the beginning of a "new season" ...

Quote;
"Andrew Strom ... For many years he was a "publisher of the prophets" on the Internet - and widely known in prophetic circles - until he publicly quit the movement in 2004, causing shockwaves around the world."

--- After a very short space i learned quickly what it meant to concider oneself called of God as a NT prophet, let alone make the ultimate mistake of actually saying so openly ... i thank God that in my belief of His moving me in the prophetic (in my own little circle of assignment) i had no idea until coming to SI that there was any such thing as "The Prophetic Movement" ... i've always thought the NT prophet was to be pretty much like the OT prophet, in that you don't even know they're around as long as God's people are on plumb, but when things start to get shaky within the throng God brings us to the fore with "warnings" of slippage ... i've also always thought that the prophet/prophetic was a singular man, in lone singular reluctant movement, not some broad movement that the 'prophets" were supposed to all get together and join up into for comfort, support and solace ... i thought early that the NT prophet, like the old, was supposed to only draw comfort, support and solace from God in the calling, not from fellow men ... Anyhow ... ---

docs wrote;
"Do we as charismatics have the courage to ask the hard questions? I'm not preaching, I'm just somewhat frustrated. In all of these "silly and dry denominational churches" I have looked down my nose at in times past you don't see these kind of unbiblical excesses. "

--- Amen, i know what you're saying here, altho i've never looked down my nose on any other saints/denoms after i got saved ... i was raised a JW and belive me they look down their noses on everyone else, so that by the time Christ brought me to Himself i was reallt flabberghasted to find so much division within the Body, and it was the first mission i believe He had me attack ... it was the onset of what was to become a long salvation walk of "annoying saints" and "aggravating pastors" with questions as to why they made such snide, and sometimes even nasty, comments about one another, even from the pulpit, regarding saints of different denominations ... When i look back on my spiritual upbringing, especially being raised JW, i can see many things from that that God could use in me such as having a perfectionist view when it comes to what scripture says we ought to be, especially in regards Him, our fellow saints, and our fellow man ... But on the other hand if such traits are not used of God, but of ourselves, then we could be doing much more harm than good moving in the perspiration of our own initiative, attempting to help God by making something happen, while all the while making matters worse ... This has been my own most gut wrenching concern in my own (i hope called of God) walk with God thus far in the "prophetic" ... i thank Him that out of a pronouncement a long time coming i believe led of Him to make, that i'll soon be made aware of whether "i'm live (of Him), or memorex (horribly of myself) ...

But this i know for sure, tho my belief structure of being called to NT prophet wasn't formed in a Pentecostal setting, it was further enabled and supported to a strength that was able to survive on it's own apart from that initial nurturing once the "words" started to be delivered
and were contrary to the new direction of the church/pastor ... i've often thought over the years that to get grief for delivering God's messages has intrisic value for oneself as treasures stored up in heaven and hopefully in His use of bringing the Body to repentance, but to be doing such out of self motivatioin is such gross dross, a sure sign of some kind of sick masochistic tendency, and as in bro Strom's expose the cause of an even greater sickness in the Body and further besmirchment of the name of Christ ... Thank God for the cleansing away of anything and anybody that's not trully of Him ...

True most so-called mainstream "denominational churches" don't have the amount of "unbiblical excesses" as many Charasmatic and Pentecostal churches/movements but then they may be just as guilty to the other extreme ... i looked up these definitions ...

Charismatic: a member of a religious group or movement that stresses the seeking of direct divine inspiration and charisms.

Charisms: a member of a religious group or movement that stresses the seeking of direct divine inspiration and charisms (as glossolalia or healing) .

In these definitions it seems to me ALL saints should be defined ... i'm always seeking Divine inspiration and charisms, tho of the latter i have no drive whatsoever toward the visible miracles that so many seem to seek amongst Pentecostalism ... i seek spiritual charisms, in particular a fresh annointing of Holy Spirit on the Body to massive repentance and REVIVAL to our first love and works toward Him ... i care nothing of if i ever see a physical healing, etc., my drive is only toward that of spiritual healing for the Church, and toward that which will occur in the harvest of other unsuspecting vessels of mercy into their being brought into the sheaves ... If God wants to follow that up with visible miracles, so be it, and He can give such gifts to whomever He choses, but i don't have to be one ... If He wants to bring exquisite joy to this saint all He has to do is latter rain down Holy Ghost REVIVAL, and of all else His grace would be more than sufficient ...

i've given my salvation testimony on SI in many places, how i believe it was He who moved me from from JW, to a Baptist assembly, then to a Pentecostal one, which i've said previously certainly wouldn't have been my choice because i'm a much more quieter worshipper than they ...

Andrew Strom left the Prophetic Movement, and God knows that when this year is over, and if i'm proven to also have been one operating in as dos's wrote "unbiblical excesses", my intent will be to apologize to all i feel led of Holy Spirit to apologize to, then gladly leave the Pentecostal C.O.G.I.C. behind and attend some nice, little, multi-cultural Presbyterian assembly, much more appealing to my personality and demeanor ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus, and may His will only be done, especially apart and separate from even well meaning men who somehow get things all twisted to further shame ... Let God be found true, and all men and our movements whether individual, or in tandem, a liar! ... What ALL of us need is much, much, much more of Him, and none of our "selves", for the latter makes nothing but more mess ---

Hey bro,

I don't have a lot of time right now. But I did read your reply and can relate to what you are saying. You said some good things I just don't have the time to reply to right now. For now, please see my post above - "The office of prophet and the gift of prophecy." It's a good place to start in my opinion in an effort to rightly analyze some of the misunderstandings and blurring of distinctions that have occured and are perhaps at least partly responsible for much of the confusion and excesses that have run amok.

Blessings,

"Doc"

Does the book serve as a warning or does it just "tell all"?

Doc you wrote;
"I don't have a lot of time right now. But I did read your reply and can relate to what you are saying. You said some good things I just don't have the time to reply to right now. For now, please see my post above - "The office of prophet and the gift of prophecy." It's a good place to start in my opinion in an effort to rightly analyze some of the misunderstandings and blurring of distinctions that have occured and are perhaps at least partly responsible for much of the confusion and excesses that have run amok."

---Praise God for your reply Doc ...

i've been on SI Forum since 2004 and believe me every which way "the calling of prophet", and the difference between "the calling" and "the gift of prophecy" by Holy Spirit, has been hashed, re-hashed, and then hashed some more, sometimes in heated debate ... i have no further inclination to "analyze some of the misunderstandings and blurring of distinctions that have occured", so please don't feel burdened to reply in any depth in your time constraint ...

See i ain't at the "start" of this season, but at the "end", which actually means on to a "new beginning in a new season", the former is very soon passed away either in validation by God that all i believe He's had me do, and i've reluctantly done, He will make true to fruition to His glory and my promotion into an even wider work, or like Peter "I go a fishing" (John 21:3), with all that that entails as described in ...

[b]Matthew Henry Bible Commentary - John Chapter 21[/b]
(They knew not well what to do with themselves. For my part, says Peter, I will go a fishing)
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/mhc/john/21.html

This saying i'll be returning to a much simpler type, first love, first works, Christianity and assembly, in a complete disassociation from what has over the decades become an increasingly much more complex and burdensome walk in our Lord in that i'll be freed from both an apparent delusion of a "prophetic" calling, and from a denominational invironment (Pentecostalism) in which such delusion could be nutured in the first pace (amongst all the apparent others) ...

There's an open door before me, and one way or the other i'm soon to be ushered thru it into a "new season of freedom" ...

[b]Learning to "Rest in the Lord" or "The Waiting Room" experience ...[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10395&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go

Blessings in our Lord Jesus Christ! ... :-D

I finally made it back to leave a few comments. As you know, I'm relatively new here so I didn't know that the subject of the calling and office of a prophet versus the gift of prophecy has been hashed and rehashed. It's not suprising though and is a necessary topic in these days of glib and erroneous phrases and concepts. Good for SI.

I'm sort of in a new season also. I'm not where I was (not wanting to go back) and not where I'm going. I'm in a season where I will be able to visit various churches in my locality and then before too very long make a decision as to which local fellowhip the Lord wants me to be a part of. Good luck (ugh!). That doesn't sound right. Rather, blessings upon you as you start your new season also bro. You sound like one who is looking for genuiness and I encourage you in that. Would you pray for me also?

"Doc" :-)

.

I'd like to get one so don't sell out before the first day. :-(

.

Many Christians cry out for true prophets, but it seems when one is raised among them, those who cry out for true prophets are the first ones to stoned them.

Surely a true prophet wouldn't care about getting good reviews, they wouldn't care about seeking man's opinions because they are there to do the will of God and please Him only.

.

I haven't even read the book but I will order one very soon. We have long needed the courage to ask the hard questions and acknowledge that many things are not lining up biblically in some of the modern movements and trends however well intentioned they may have been in their beginnings. You've done a much needed service for us and thank you for making the effort to honestly point some of these things out.

"Doc"

.

Come on folks, you have effectively called a fellow "CHRISTIAN' a false prophet. That is foolish!Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[1] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Jesus said by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, by the LOVE you have one toward another, where is the love in your comments? You might try to defend yourselves and your stand or position on this matter, but rember every man womam and child will give account to God for thier own actions, maybe the Lord told him to write this book and market it, are you close enough to God to speak for Him on behalf of this man? Can you stand the same judgement you have cast? THINK! you two have just done toward him exactly what those of old did toward the prophets of old! Be slow to speak and quick to hear, let the day declare itself in light of a matter, come on you two are better than this, I've read some of your comments on other posts, grow up!

I can say with a great deal of certainty that most people in these forums would enjoy siting down and talking with Andrew and his family. They felt God leading and packed up from New Zealand and came to the US; Kansas City in particular. I did not know the man from Adam a few weeks before he arrived. I believe God ordained it.

From then we spent a great deal of time together. We have ministered together in revival meetings, street services and homeless ministry. You may not agree with Andrew, but I have to take strong issue with asserting he is a false prophet. There are few people around that preaches a full Gospel message like him that I am aware of. And he certainly don't need me as his defense. But I'll speak up any time when I know better than what is being insinuated or spoken of him.

Thankyou Robert and Dohzman for sticking up for me. However on reflection I believe there is much truth in what Corey is saying.

I need to avoid even the appearance of "self-
promotion" - and that is what Corey was bringing out. I believe he is right.

Corey - I apologize. You have made me look at myself and the way I am doing things - and I am going to make real changes - starting tonight.

I want to thankyou for being so bold and forthright. "The wounds of a friend". -Truly.

I think probably I should start by erasing my other posts on this thread.

God bless you!

Andrew Strom.

Dear bro Andrew,

It was a couple of years back, when I was in a very dry and barren state in my spiritual life, going to church regularly and very much involved in church actvities but 'dying' inside me.

I happened to stumble onto your article online and something shone through the despair I was going through. Many things I was questioning began to be answered. I started to seek more and not just receive and believe what people say or teach. I began to cry out to God and He has been more than good. I 'stumbled' or was 'led' to Sermonindex (thank you, Lord) and here you are too. I thank the Lord for you too. Your openness and brokenness opened my eyes to many things.

I am not good at reviews and comments but I would like to share this response by Kato Mivule. God bless.

Response to "Why I left the Prophetic Movement" By Andrew Strom

An African Perspective

By Kato Mivule

I read with interest the article on "Why I left the Prophetic Movement" by Andrew Strom, I thank God that he did and also have put out a warning to everyone. Well I live in Kansas City too, and I am from Uganda, Africa, I have been for a long time disgusted at the manipulation and games that these prophets play, mainly lust for money and power.

There is a strong spirit of greed for money and power here in the West and this spirit asserts itself in very sophisticated ways that it takes discerning from God to uncover these evil demons of control, power and money. I found out that those who don't preach the prosperity gospel, like most TV preachers we know, actually practice the prosperity gospel by their way of life, they do it in such a subtle way that it is not open to the simple minded eye. The other trouble is that the movement is so attached to the issue of power and who should be in control, just like much of the Christendom Churches do.

The lust for power comes from a false spirit that has duped the Western churches and ministries to be run like corporate organizations. We have the structure similar to that of any corporate organization inside these churches and ministries, there are CEOs, etc and maybe that is why most churches here enjoy the IRS 501(c) tax exemption status. This problem is not just a 'Prophetic/charismatic' issue but also a symptom of the extent at which the moneyed suburbanized American church has decomposed with her continual adultery with the present world and Satan.

This spirit of dominionism has so much been epitomized in the just concluded presidential elections. Christians have been deceived that they have to “take back” all government control and create a so-called Christian nation, such deceit is not only alarming but very heartbreaking cause those who have studied history know exactly what happened when Constantine the infamous Roman emperor did when he institutionalized Christianity as the official religion. History tells us what happened next. Jesus said simply and very plainly that his kingdom is not of this world.

Secondly I believe strongly with all my heart that true dominion power and rule belong only to Jesus Christ and He will establish that when He comes and not now through the suburbanized American church. The Suburb Church of America has been deceived into believing that God will only accomplish His will and purposes through them and not any one else, they see them selves as supporting and fulfilling the great commission and all the so-called "prophetic" purposes of God, one wonders why missionaries leave America and go to evangelize other nations, spending billions of dollars a year and yet cannot even help their fellow brothers in Christ who pray in a partial renovated beat-up former store structures in the inner Cities that look much like a war zone.

The devil has been successful in making them hate their inner city or poor brother while making expensive flights to preach to us in Africa or the rest of the so-called "third world" who are normally seen as "heathens" or those living in the "dark continent". This dominion spirit is no different from colonialism and imperialism. It is not a spirit from Christ; it is the spirit of man. So when it comes to evangelism, again there is control and dominion from the Rich Young Ruler, The American Church.

The lack of concern and blaming the poor by the American church is nauseating. The American Church has been deceived by the devil into joining hands with the so-called conservative and democrats in fighting against the poor in America by blaming the poor for their predicament. Those who read the Bible prophets like Isaiah, etc, know that God has drawn a clear line. Those who fight against the widows, poor and orphans, fight against God, for God is their protector. These Rich preachers are engaging in fistfights with The Lord, and will ultimately loose. The 'prophetic movement' including the so-called Religious Right Christians sadly have succumbed to such deceit from the devil and so blinded that they cannot see this clearly.

Those who are simple minded however, will not want to hear this or even enjoy reading such articles. But like the current politicians are saying, "you can fool some people all the time but cannot fool all people all the time", those with discernment from the Holy Spirit and God’s Word will not be deceived.

The church in America should receive the Lord's rebuke with all their heart and strengthen what remains otherwise they risk being given deep into the spirit of the evil one. The repentance here is not just confessing sins religiously but the Mathew Chapter 3 repentance that bares fruit.

Matthew 3:7-10

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire

The John the Baptist repentance which bares fruit is what is required otherwise the axe is laid at the root of the American church tree to cut it down and throw it in the fire if no one heeds to God's voice and repents from dead works of men and Satan.

I stand with you in prayer and know that what is happening to you is not just an isolation or a single incident but happening to many brothers and sisters in Christ around the World.

Your Brother in Christ from Uganda, Africa

Kato Mivule

Kato, I am not from uganda I am from the usa. I dont share in your hope that my country be trashed. I believe there is apowerful christian base still here, my hopee is for revival of america not judgement.
Read the 7 letters to the 7 churches.
God desires restoration.

......David

.....David

.....David

.....David

.....David

.....David

Mr. Mivule,

I too live in Kansas City…

You write:

The devil has been successful in making them hate their inner city or poor brother

The lack of concern and blaming the poor by the American church is nauseating.

Hate their inner city? In Kansas City, in the past several years there has never been more building and rebuilding of the inner city or blighted areas where you find high crime rates.

New business’, with employment opportunities are growing nearly every week in the older sections of Kansas City. Great amounts of tax-increment financing have been made available for this very purpose, trying to lure investors into these high-crime areas for rebuilding. Numerous tax-abatement programs are made available to low-income homeowners to re-hab their homes and in so doing pay no real estate taxes for fifteen or more years.

Millions of dollars of private money has been invested for education, scholarships, grants subsidies and the like. The late owner of the Kansas City Royals founded an organization established for the very purpose of providing college scholarships for inner-city youth who very well might not have an opportunity otherwise.

I do not know the dollar figure given by Kansas City area Churches, but it is large. Given to fund organizations such as City-Union Mission-helping the poor and homeless, Salvation army, Harvesters food bank and others. Yet please know there is still a great need. There are private groups who take converted box-vans of food and supplies to the homeless living under bridges.

Great things are happening in Kansas City, and I am honored to have even a small part in the efforts.

Mr. Mivule, there are a plethora of opportunities for you to help the poor and needy in the greater Kansas City Metropolitan area.

And furthermore I think we have had quite enough of the bulldoze the Church messages from the self-described repentance groups. Try shining the light, instead of only cursing the darkness, it will work!!

Sincerely,
Tony Sexton
Kansas City

There seems to be a forgotten principle. David understood this and refused an easy remedy against saul.
When i attack a christian group I lump in all the serious believers in with what i see as hypocrites.
This can be costly for the accusers.
I have often wondered ....if David had trashed saul......What would his tesstimony have been?
.........probably he and all Israel would have been derailed.
I hope in the future our alarm at ministries doesnt turn into a blanket 'trashfest'
.....David

Kato's: Those who read the Bible prophets like Isaiah, etc, know that God has drawn a clear line. Those who fight against the widows, poor and orphans, fight against God, for God is their protector.

I heard a saying once that no matter how flat you smash a pancake you still have to turn it over to cook the other side. Let's fry the other side a bit, shall we? A "clear line" needs to be drawn between the [i]poor[/i] and the [i]slothful[/i].

How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.(Proverbs 6)

By no means do I align myself with a lot of the modern ideas of certain conservative politicians. But I know from consistent first hand ministry to the homeless that the vast majority that have came though our food lines over the years were as able to work as I am. In fact, I have heard from some of their mouthes some of the most devilish unholy and unthankful remarks one could imagine. We have been cursed because the food got a little too cold while they stood in line.

Some people dig a fork into the pie but are too lazy to raise it to their mouth. Punish the insolent--make an example of them. Who knows? Somebody might learn a good lesson. Proverbs 19:24, 25 MSG)

A sluggard is here exposed as a fool. All his care is to save himself from labor and cold. See his posture: He hides his hand in his bosom, pretends he is lame and cannot work; his hands are cold, and he must warm them in his bosom; and, when they are warm there, he must keep them so. He hugs himself in his own ease and is resolved against labor and hardship. Let those work that love it; for his part he thinks there is no such fine life as sitting still and doing nothing. (M. Henry)

We have had many stand in lines on their cell phones talking- being rude and obnoxious week after week. Soon, in many cases, I began to see what was going on. We bought their Sunday dinner, the missions and other like places gave them food, clothing and shelter and they spent their money on drugs and alcohol. I have seen many come through those lines dressed better than I am. All the while the [i]true[/i] homeless and poor were being driven away foodless, naked, and under bridges. And these people, who drive away the poor from their dish, living the lives of full on sluggards are no doubt the ones under the judgment of God.

I have seen their mean faces. I have seen them curse and swear and taunt the women. More than that, [i]God has seen it[/i]. They have opened their mouthes to bite the hands that fed them.

The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting; (Proverbs 12:27)

That which may make us hate slothfulness and deceit, for the word here, as before, signifies both: The slothful deceitful man has roast meat, but that which he roasts is not what he himself took in hunting, no, it is what others took pains for, and he lives upon the fruit of their labors, like the drones in the hive. (M.H) Moreover, though a thousand men were rubuked in a city- scarcely are any of these challenged. Fewer have the fortitude to rebuke the living fathers of the fatherless that fornicate leaving pain and carnage on the landscape as if it were a lite thing. Will God give us some REAL [u]P[/u]rophets? Not men who are like bullies in the High School who looked for the weak and passive to spill their violence upon- but some men that will go TOE TO TOE with some REAL issues in this land? When I hear the fornicators who leave young girls pregnant all across our cities being rebuked; when I hear the sluggards being rebuked, and when their thieves and liars are being rebuked- I'll know then I may well be beholding a REAL prophet.

Rom 14 has to do with judging a brother based on life and thier actions. The dietary aspect was just one vital part of understanding this scripture. You need to think outside of literal interpetation. The Word of God after all was called bread?

And I am no more obliged to love a man I discern to be a false teacher than I am to love Balaam, Simon the Sorceror, Peter Popoff, The Rolling Stones

No man can stand before God's judgment. Except One.

The prophets of old spoke nothing of themselves - they were compelled by the Spirit of God to speak the Word of God.

They often spoke of themselves, how they felt, what was going on in thier minds and hearts. This book we call the bible is full of humnanity, and these prophets of old were, I know it is strange to think...they were human...real people, they had major flaws, sinful charastics, they had sin they had to deal with, are people so blind that they can't see it in thier writtings? I could go from cover to cover and show you what this prophet or that prohet was dealing with, just take time to read thier writtings, not generically, but as one who is afflicted with thier afflictions, troubled by thier troubles....I think to myself the reader has no ears(heart) to hear so what's the use in writting anymore on this subject.

Corey you have all the answers, but you just don't get it. You think you know the prophets, you know thier words, but don't know thier heart. I have such deep sadness in this post and in reading your response, it's unbelieveble. I'll reply no more to this matter, just make sure the God your hearing from isn't just self interpeting God the way you want Him to be and self righteously throwing fiery arrows (His Word) at all that pass by.

[u]The prophets you seek will no doubt eat with, speak with, and serve the people you deride (as Christ did).[/u] They may even tie together a few cat-o-nine-tails and whip the moneychanging, gluttonous, vainglorious pastors out of many a "church", too.

If this is true I know not God or the bible.

And I am no more obliged to love a man I discern to be a false teacher than I am to love Balaam, Simon the Sorceror, Peter Popoff, The Rolling Stones, or the fallen angels and the devil they all serve.

[i]But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;[/i] Mat 5:44

Not me. The Spirit discerns something's amiss. He tells me to search the scriptures. And I post what He teaches me.

[i]But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.[/i] Jas 3:14

"I think", "I felt", "I believe" are so utterly and entirely drowned by "Thus Sayeth the Lord"! "I heard", "I saw", and even "I ate", but their thoughts, opinions, views, and ideals held no sway or even came to mind under the overwhelmingly potent, searingly bright, and awful dread they experienced in the presence of Almighty God.

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In your own words;

Unfortunately, I'm still very carnal in certain areas and have a
tendency to bluntness to the point of rudeness when it comes to interacting
with Christians - I always seem to think I'm right for some strange
reason...

Until I know for sure whether my discernment about spiritual matters is
of God, and until I can get my flesh under my spirit, I must remain
anonymous.

Since I'm still failing miserably at most of these, I must not teach. I
would be a hypocrite - and we know where the hypocrites go.

How then could I teach after being baptised in the Holy Ghost only a
year ago?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20038&forum=35&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0]A Rebuke to the Church[/url]

Jesse, I've not seen your videos, but if this is true - if you're attacking sinners' character and calling them names - you need to re-examine what "Jesus" you serve... one's a lamb, and the other's a dragon wearing lambskins...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Your own words indict you and yet you are quite willing to pass judgment on things you have neither seen nor read. Peevish, haughty, proud, self-righteousness, arrogant, hypocritical, factionist, smarmy, smart alek ... Take your pick, something indeed is amiss.

I have such deep sadness in this post and in reading your response, it's unbelieveble.

Well said Mike.

I rarely ever post on forums - let alone take precious blood-bought time to read them, but I must say that I personally know Andrew Strom and I have had a chance to read his book even before it was in print.

Regarding Andrew's character, I've been in inner-city ministry for many years now in the heart of Los Angeles. I've been ministering to the homeless, the disenfranchised, the drug addics, the prostitutes, the gang-members, and many more. I've seen a plethora of false prophets (those out for money and personal gain, etc) and I've also seen the real thing (albeit very rarely). Let me say to you that brother Andrew has not even an inkling of a "false prophet". All I've seen since I've known him is his heart for the poor, for the sick state of the church, for genuine heaven-sent revival, for much prayer, and for promoting others' ministries. When he put his recent book out he felt clearly from God that he should push it (and I don't doubt that it should be pushed - especially in America). If anyone takes the time to read it, they will understand why its message is so critical - expressly in the wake of the "Prophetic Movement" and the "Kansas City Prophets".

I soberly counsel and exhort anyone reading this forum to be VERY CAREFUL with their words, remembering that "every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment" (Matt 12:36). Take heed to the Proverb: "The one who guards his mouth preserves his life; the one who opens wide his lips comes to ruin" (13:3).

I would certainly recommend "Why I Left the Prophetic Movement" to anyone interested in a more clear picture of what a mess the Western Church is in and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, how we can see GENUINE Revival in the midst of it.

Chapter 3 in his book is entitled "The 5 Keys To Discernment"

Key #1: "Know your HOLY GOD intimately. (When you have seen His glory, His holiness and His love - by drawing close to Him in prayer - then you can usually see through any counterfeits because you know the "real thing" so well)."

Let us take heed dear brothers!

Blessings, grace, and love to all,

Glenn A. Bolan
Los Angeles, CA

I keep hearing 'kansas city prophets' ....if they are so bad just tell it like it is.
The only one i can think of is bickel. Is he the bad one?
Ive never heard of andrew strom either.
I am sure all the prophets have their problems.
Somehow it just seems too easy to 'prophesy against the prophets'
Am I missing something here? We are exorted to go out and buy a book of accusations against a group of prophets without a rebuttle from the accused group?
One of the accusations is "they have tables laden with books to make money"
Isnt andrew strom selling books?
I would sure like to hear from "the bad boys of K.C."
And who they are

....David

Do people know that they are calling out passionate men and women (warriors) of the Lord because it does not fit into your own personal "religious box" of what you feel is acceptable?

If the non-prophetic movement is like this...

Miccah

"The Kansas City Prophets"- And who they are?

There has long been people that have sought for a genuine revival in America. The "KC Prophets" as they came to be known were a group of men that some would say in the beginning started off well, but over time the whole movement towards revival jumped the rails.

There are many different articles on the web that deal with this group. Everyone associated with them that I have met has a story. Many have moved from other states and even countries to be a part of a revival that was to begin in Kansas City. There are many tales that are said that point to KC as being a sort of ground zero for the next great move of God. Some have said that KC is the prophetic city at the mouth of the KAW (Kansas) river. I have researched this, but the info I have is not complete. We do know that Charles Parham's group at Stone's Folly in Topeka experienced the first real documented Pentecostal outpouring in America that resulted in speaking in tongues.

To make a long story short, many things went wrong. Many people were hurt and ceased to attend church at all- anywhere. There are many out-of-Church today Christians in Kansas City. I have met many personally and had limited fellowship with them. Some are so hurt that they go through a whole process that is almost a wilderness wandering. As a 'church' guy this all too odd to me, nevertheless it is what has happened.

Andrew knew the situation here. He believed God had sent him to KC to rally these folk together and begin to seek for genuine revival. I met Andrew and his family when they arrived in KC and spent several months ministering with him in various capacities seeking God for revival. It seemed as though things were going well as he preached in a local church the message, "Repentance in Kansas City."

The challenge was and still is that the type of message that really needs to be delivered is not welcome in most churches. Pastors are very cautious of allowing folk to come in that have an aggressive message as they are viewed as 'loose canons'. A loose canon was one that was not rightly secured in a ship and could actually go off and blast a hole in your own boat. When resistance is raised it becomes hard not to view them as 'anti-revival' etc. But I think the situation is much more complex than that.

I have to admit from many conversations that I recall having with Andrew that he always held out hope for redemption of the KC scene. That is why he came here. He was very optimistic- or at least cautiously optimistic of what could happen. We had started in 2004 having small meetings in parks, homes and finally at the old Metro Church- the scene of the former KC prophet movement. It is a huge building. So we met in the cafeteria for some number of weeks.

There was a pretty good attendance. Folk seemed to be receptive. Then a large prophetic gathering was held at the Metro church- so large that I never saw so many cars at a church. Bob Jones would be there also. People were parked down the road and at storefront parking lots across the road from the church. Andrew had HIGH HOPES of God working in this meeting- especially after the revelation of certain things had happened with a certain main member. He thought it would bring them to repent and seek God for a real move of God. He was vexed to see it would be business as usual.

The first message he preached after returning from that conference carried the now infamous line (at least in my memory), "It didn't feel like God to me." In that message he outlined (lamented) what happened. I have not read the book, but know first hand much of what was happening at the time within the context of his experience. I think that event was the turning point for Andrew in KC. It was not long after and IHOP (International House of Prayer) looked to re-purchase the old Metro church and our meetings were effectively ended.

So he took to preaching in various places. At last we got together for a homeless outreach in KC down at the notorious 'Jurassic Park'. My father had been in homeless ministry regularly for a long time. Our church at various times has ministered to the homeless for a long time. We handed out food, clothing, coats, gloves, drinks, etc. and prayed one on one with occasional preaching open air.

When Andrew left Kansas City he felt that the doors were shut to him and he was blocked out by the gate keepers. He believed God was moving Him on. This was late 2006. As a final note to it all I think that the message was rejected in part because the people (especially the pastors) were not prepared to hear it. Folk that are truly out-of-church are nearly impossible to assemble. Many of these people came to KC believing God wanted to use them as 'John the Baptist' [i]type[/i] preachers. Their's is a case I suppose of severe disillusionment. They have one gear only, "FULL-ON take no prisoners type repentance". I have often wondered if a smoother entry may have made the way for more open doors. But only God really knows that.

Do people know that they are calling out passionate men and women (warriors) of the Lord because it does not fit into your own personal "religious box" of what you feel is acceptable?

I think it is fair to say that we were willing to accept any move of God that was biblical. We are not ceasationists. I am Pentecostal- but prefer to believe I am also not in flakesville. I believe in the prophetic unction of God and have witnessed my share of 'manifestations'. The concern has been- that folk are [u]not[/u] being called to genuine repentance accompanied by genuine godly sorrow and faith leading to a genuine born again experience and baptism in the Holy Spirit. One particular area of concern is the Song of Solomon focus.

Bro Strom ...

Keep you eyes of faith on Him man ... cause as Kermit D. Frog (Sesame St.) says, "It ain't easy being green" ...
:-P ;-)

Bro Robert you wrote;
"The challenge was and still is that the type of message that really needs to be delivered is not welcome in most churches. Pastors are very cautious of allowing folk to come in that have an aggressive message as they are viewed as 'loose canons'. A loose canon was one that was not rightly secured in a ship and could actually go off and blast a hole in your own boat. When resistance is raised it becomes hard not to view them as 'anti-revival' etc. But I think the situation is much more complex than that."

--- What you say i find to be generally true ... i've watched something awful happen to so many once young on fire pastors for God bolting out of the gate, and now 20+ years later those who've not fallen away to sin may be a lot more succesful in terms of congregation size, collections, etc., but many aren't really joyous in God ... They're going thru the motions, while their congrgations go thru the commotions, being majority Af/Am with a seemingly natural inclination so much of it only "emotional", but it's obvious somethings missings (or better that Someone is missing) because the
"high" doesn't seem to last ... It's like one gimmick, after another, and now it seems many a pastor
is running out of gimmicks, and many a saint is beginning to see thru the ruses, and like you said folk are dropping out of church (organized assembly) ...

As i'm coming to the very end of whatever this oft strange and dramatic 20 year season has been in my Christian walk, i'm finding this thread very interesting in that the "movement" i've experienced personally has been so different than bro. Strom's experience ... Mine has been to only one pastor
with explicit instructions (i belive from Holy Spirit) that would pop up in my spirit, as well as explicit
don't for myself like ...

- i could only deliver "words" to pastor (leadership), and not at all to the congregation without his permission (which i never did because he never allowed it) ...

- That i am never to stand in any pastors pulpit, in particular my own, and that in case i should be allowed to speak it has to be at a lower (announcements) rostrum, or from the floor level of the Church (i'm never to think more of my calling than a pastors) ...

- i am never supposed to usurp athority in any type way over my pastor, and neither am i to talk against him (even if i might not like what he's doing) with anyone else in his assembly in any capacity, but am to ever lift him, his ministerial staff, and the congregation up in prayer at all times, and advise any other congregant to do the same ...

In my experience it's been toward calling one pastor to "pro-actively" assemble his ministerial staff together, and that they should weep, repent and pray between the porch and the altar until they hear from God, then to call us all together into solemn assembly before Him in deep repentance, sorrow, a turning from our wickedness, a burying of our residual idols, and a seeking from Him of a fresh fall/filling of Holy Spirit unto REVIVAL and a reawakening of our first love and works toward Him ...

It's funny i've only had one Joel chapter 2 & 3 message all these years and pastor may concider it to "loose canon" (altho i think i'm pretty secure), but those whom i concider "loose canon's" he'll allows them to speak ... For one thing they all feed into that "get money" way of presenting the word, while with me i find that all so heart aching, and breaking ... i believe in Matt. 6:33 ---

Bro. Robert you wrote;
"I think it is fair to say that we were willing to accept any move of God that was biblical. We are not ceasationists. I am Pentecostal- but prefer to believe I am also not in flakesville. I believe in the prophetic unction of God and have witnessed my share of 'manifestations'. The concern has been- that folk are not being called to genuine repentance accompanied by genuine godly sorrow and faith leading to a genuine born again experience and baptism in the Holy Spirit."

--- Tho i believe myself assigned to a Pentecostal denom/church (COGIC) i don't concider myself a Pentecostal - but a Christian plain and simple ... But in my 20+ years experience in my COGIC congregation i've not concidered them as being in "flakesville" until probably the last 10 years or so as the emphasis has veered from more spiritual quests to those of psuedo-spiritual masking the more "get money by selling Christ out and becoming a more relevant, modern, seeker friendly church" ... i never concidered speaking/praying in tongues (tho very odd to me at first) as flaky (it's in the Bible), neither the shouting, and the wailing at the times that i knew them to be real in praise and/or deliverance, neither the speaking to demons in binding and loosing, nor the all nite prayer vigils, and tarrying for the Holy Ghost, i could find scriptural references for them all ... But what's being practiced now Scripture speaks directly against, and yet it's done - this is what's flaky to me ...

You spoke of "the concern has been- that folk are not being called to genuine repentance accompanied by genuine godly sorrow and faith leading to a genuine born again experience and baptism in the Holy Spirit." ... It seems to me you've spoken of the unsaved here, and what you say is true, but it's the already saved that's in need of the same that brings me to consternation ...

You know this year (2007) marks the centenial of COGIC, and pastor, and 6 million others are all up in an uproar about this, promoting Bishop C H Mason as the founder, and going all out for a retelling
of COGIC history ... To mark this event the head bishops are calling for a 21 day fast to ask God to take us back to where we came from, while my own pastor has called for fast days prior ... Just about everyone's so excited, and making big plans to go to Memphis for the convocation, while i on the other hand care nothing of this, and it hurts my heart to see so much ado that's not directed totally to Jesus ... Bishop Mason, no other pastor, or no other person in my book has the right to call
anyone else other than God the Father, Jesus Christ & Holy Spirit the founder of any church - the best any man can be is co-founder ... And as far as church history, the book of Acts is good enough for me, everything after that is just that, after, and our after history, especially today, is sadly lacking ... i'm just amazed that COGIC leadership can call for a 21 day fast marking a COGIC event, but never has called for one in either honor to Christ alone, or in pursuit of REVIVAL, against all the ills that the church and the world is experiencing ... Man centered empire building has taking precedence over Christ centered kingdom building ... And then there's the pain of watching my own pastor, and fellow saints, floundering in his year long message of "This is Our Year" while many in the assembly murmur at their losses (particularly financial) ... i can only pray God that i actually heard Him in my spirit at the beginning of this year, and that pastor is right that "this is our year", just not in the materially tainted blessings and outpourings he so liberally spices his sermons with ...

Bottom line tho, if things are to remain the same into the new year, i'll be gladly leaving behind both my own personal "prophetic movement" (in being proven false), and Pentecostalism ... Error is bad enuf ... loud error for me would then be no longer tenable ...

Blessings in our Lord Jesus Christ! ---

RobertW wrote: I think it is fair to say that we were willing to accept any move of God that was biblical. We are not ceasationists. I am Pentecostal- but prefer to believe I am also not in flakesville. I believe in the prophetic unction of God and have witnessed my share of 'manifestations'. The concern has been- that folk are [u]not[/u] being called to genuine repentance accompanied by genuine godly sorrow and faith leading to a genuine born again experience and baptism in the Holy Spirit. One particular area of concern is the Song of Solomon focus.

Thank you for a clarification. I believe you are right to a degree. Without defending Laodicea, there are plenty of churches that fit into a discription as such, regardless of what movement it comes out of. Is there more among prophetic movement? That really depends on who you talk to. In this thread, it seems that people feel there is.

The concern has been- that folk are [u]not[/u] being called to genuine repentance accompanied by genuine godly sorrow and faith leading to a genuine born again experience and baptism in the Holy Spirit.

This is the problem with many churches and I could not agree more, but it is not just a prophetic phenomena, but of something born out of the "end days" church.

Miccah

Thankyou Robert and Dohzman for sticking up for me. However on reflection I believe there is much truth in what Corey is saying.

I need to avoid even the appearance of "self-
promotion" - and that is what Corey was bringing out. I believe he is right.
....
and I am going to make real changes - starting tonight.

[b][u]I believe this comment was a lie.[/b][/u]

Just now I received an e-mail in my mail-box, entirely unsolicited, from Andrew Strom. He decided to e-mail everybody on his old "intercessors" mailing list, shamelessly self-promoting his book. Below is the e-mail, in case you didn't get it:

(This email is going only to people from Andrew Strom's old
"Intercessor's List")... It's a special occasion!...

This is a special request that you please go and READ THE
AMAZON REVIEWS for Andrew Strom's new book -

"WHY I LEFT the PROPHETIC MOVEMENT"

(The Review by Greg Gordon from SermonIndex.net is particularly
outspoken!)

To get to the Amazon page for this book, simply click on the
book's picture at the top of our website-

This is a special request that you please go and READ THE
AMAZON REVIEWS for Andrew Strom's new book -

Could this email have been sent by another person helping Andrew with online marketing...in other words could this be an oversight or lack of timely communication in his organization, but not an intent to lie?

MC

I am a little hesitant about recommending another article by Art Katz. But in my opinion, he had a way of saying things pretty precisely and I consider him as one who truly was called to the office of a prophet versus just exercising a gift of prophecy etc. He addressed many things prevalent in the body of Christ and some of the emphasis he saw in the modern revivial movement disturbed him. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I just offer his thoughts in his article, "Holiness or Blessing", more as a for what it's worth type of thing as far as the present subject is concerned.

I don't know why the link below keeps showing up after a large space. I tried several times to correct it so I apologize but if it's here it may be down a ways.

"Doc"

[url=http://www.benisrael.org/writings/articles_artkatz/Australia_Holiness_or_Blessing.html]http://www.benisrael.org/writings/articles_artkatz/Australia_Holiness_or_Blessing.html[/url]

The e-mail was sent out by prophetic@revivalschool.com ... which is Andrew's e-mail address.

This is really beyond weary ... At what point do we stop peering into our Brethren's souls, stealing their thoughts and replacing them with our own?

Hi KingJimmy...

Do you really think that this is so necessary? Did he send that email BEFORE or AFTER his comment in this thread? Even if it came AFTERWARD -- what does it matter?

Personally, I do not have a problem with any sort of promoting of this book. From the looks of it, it is a message that needs to be shared. Besides, do we criticize David Wilkerson when he makes a plug for his books within the letters that accompany his newsletters? Did we criticize Keith Green for including order forms within Last Days Magazine? Did we criticize Leonard Ravenhill for selling his books for a profit? Do we complain when Greg Gordon offered graphic web links that linked to this webpage? Do we complain when we were offered flyers to publicize the Revival Conference? Why not? Is this message less valuable or pertinent than what Wilkerson, Ravenhill or Gordon have to say?

If this message needs to be shared, who cares how the message gets out? We cannot judge this man's heart on the basis of a desire to have the book read.

The truth of the matter is that this book is probably self-published. It costs quite a bit of time and effort to do this. If few people purchase this book, another work by this wonderful man of God may not be available. For this book to "catch on" with people, Brother Andrew actually needs some good reviews. The "money" that he makes (probably not very much anyway) will almost certainly go right back into his ability to continue sharing this message.

This man has a message that needs to be heard. How will this happen if WE do not send him? Would we rather him to start building tents?

:-(

Besides, isn't a "Book Review" simply an honest assessment of the content of the book? There can be both good and bad reviews. He isn't asking for [i]dishonesty[/i].

I believe this comment was a lie.

Brothers,

This is the eve of an event to which this community has long looked forward to.

We have but a few days left before then, to walk before the God whom we seek.

edit.
let's pray for the conference, I agree

please someone kill this thread before it kills us.

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

if our Lord has indeed been speaking through bro Strom, He will vindicate bro Andrew. bros Kingjimmy and Corey if bro Andrew hasn't been led of God in this, i believe he'll be exposed and your sentiments validated, but brethren if you are wrong and God vindicates this man, your statements are no longer directed at him but at God Himself who sent him. if this proves to be the case, what will you do?

let us all be sober in considering all this lest God humiliate us by exposing publically our follies.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

bro Corey Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Corey_H wrote:

This is really beyond weary ... At what point do we stop peering into our Brethren's souls, stealing their thoughts and replacing them with our own?

Your own words indict you and yet you are quite willing to pass judgment on things you have neither seen nor read. Peevish, haughty, proud, self-righteousness, arrogant, hypocritical, factionist, smarmy, smart alek ... Take your pick, something indeed is amiss.

Touché.

As for KingJimmy's recent discovery, I am hard pressed between two relevent scriptures:

"Ye cannot serve God and mammon." (MATT 6:24 LUKE 16:13)

"But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (II PET 2:22)

indeed you quoted well from the word, it is a sword and thus a weapon. Directed at the enemy it is more than deadly, however let us be careful that we not use that infinitely sharp blade on one another carelessly. just as surely as we can do serious damage to the enemy with the word, we can wound one another and ourselves grievously with it if we're careless. i don't believe bro Strom has any source of income outside the ministry so if the furtherance of that work requires selling a book, let the books be sold. i am reminded of another scripture which says that we ought not muzzle the ox as it's threshing corn. makes sense to me, the ox is working and so it needs to eat. if bro Strom is doing the work of God and this book being sold is a means of provision from on High, i dare not use the scriptures to somehow invalidate that because such will bring retaliation from on High also. if you've used the word in error, God will make it plain to as many as you boldly made the proclamation to, the same goes for bro Kingjimmy, if bro Strom said what he said in that post in all earnesty before God and us all and you called him a liar, God will prove you to be the liar. again if bro Strom is in error, you have nothing to fear, God will set him straight, but if you are wrong, what will you do?

Grace and Peace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.

Actually, Corey, your original post had quite a profound effect on the way the book is being put out. I felt what you were aiming at was the whole issue of "Self-Promotion" - and rightly so. I felt strongly that I needed to point more to the actual themes of the book and take attention away from "myself" where possible. So I went to my website and removed from the book advertisment my photograph and the 'blurb' about me - simply leaving the words of one of the reviewers there.

I also went to Amazon and made quite significant changes to the entire way the book was described and put forth - again trying to tone down the emphasis on "self" and bringing forward the themes of the book and the words of OTHERS about the book. These were fairly major changes.

I'm sure it is very difficult for you to understand, but to simply halt all promotion of the book is quite impossible. What I am trying to modify is the WAY it is being promoted. I believe that the themes of this book are actually important for the Body of Christ at large, and I felt God tell me I needed to "push" this book - to get it out there and get the message heard. But you helped me see that I have to be very wary of "Self-promotion" - which is a terribly fine line to draw when I am the actual author!

I am trying to balance all of this - 'pushing' the book and the message without "pushing myself". So difficult, and heaven only knows whether I am succeeding or not. Probably not, by your judgment.

I am truly sorry, my friend. (-Seriously). Please forgive me.

God bless you,

Andrew Strom.

By the way, for those who accuse me of merely being after "Mammon" - this book will be available at the Revival Conference for 'any donation'. This is our standard policy with books and CD's. "No set price".

However, this is not possible on Amazon - so that is why there is a set price on there.

Again - my apologies.

Andrew.

Poor handling on my part here. Have spoken with Corey privately, asking his forgiveness for this matter. Was convicted and caught by my own words. I repent of this publicaly.