I would like some input from those who understand the financial world. When the stock market does crash and money has become quite useless, what happens to those people that owe large sums of money to banks?
what happens to those people that owe large sums of money to banks?
Thats exactly why I asked the question based upon what Wilkerson said. I hope I can get some solid answers.I know in David Wilkerson's book "the vision" he says for Christians to work out their debts as a big priority.
Assuming that the dollar doesn't completely cease to be a viable form of currency and exchange, then those unpaid creditors who have liens and deeds to your property will foreclose and repossess, in order to soften their own free fall landing. People already live through it every day. My state has one of the highest foreclosure rates in the country right now.
If you are really serious about getting out of debt, then I would recommend Dave Ramsey's "Total Money Makeover" book. His approach is sensible but strict...and it will give you more positive traction then you think you could have had with your current income and resources, without scaring you half out of your wits in the process.
You will find that often our fear over our money is because we haven't learned to control it. Dave does a good job of taking the dread and foreboding out of your debt problems and gets you feeling hopeful again.
Just remember, laying awake at night with fears of the economy crashing doesn't lessen your debt...only a plan with a schedule and a budget will do that. So once you get a plan in place, protect your mind and emotions so you can hang in there and work your plan consistently.:-)
Blessings brother,
MC
Compton,I heard that during the great depression the banks didnt foreclose on the people that were mortgaged to their necks.Instead they foreclosed on those that were almost paid off.
our nation rests precariously on a unhealthy debt to income ratio. people dont save.They are reckless and drunk on materialism.
Has anyone looked at the price of oil? This means arab controll of our currency!
This also sets in motion cause and effect.
A $20 barrel of oil sells for $80. As this piracy continues inflation becomes automatic.
Your money isnt worth as much.....BUT WAGES CANNOT INCREASE DUE TO CHEAP OVERSEAS "SLAVE LABOR" This devalues the dollar further.
People are beginning to feel the noose around their neck at the pump. Especially those that pay cash. The credit card people only see the dread once a month and they irroneously think the will catch up in due time.Its so convienent to slide the card at the pump.
The old rule of thumb for maximum house/rent payment was 25% of monthly paycheck. Or 1 weeks pay. Now the new "improved" counsel is 50% or 2 weeks pay.
All this adds up to DISASTER.
Our nation is rapidly emptying its coffers to the arabs, chinese and illegals.
Get out of debt and turn you portfolio into at least25% of gold coins and or gold stock. stay liquid and ask God what to do. THERE IS FIXING TO BE SOME FANTASTIC DEALS OUT THERE FOR THE SMART ONES WITH CASH.
.....David
Has anyone out there ever looked into the "jubilee" principle? I understand Israel was to abide by this......Every 50 years debt was forgiven and slaves were freed.
Could we be experiencing "judgement by omission"?
......David
When the stock market does crash and money has become quite useless,
Before this comes, hyperinflation will set in. The cost of all things will increase almost daily. As soon as one gets paid, he or she will seek to purchase as much food and other essentials that that pay check will buy. Everyone but the wealthy will experience poverty in the way that third world nations live under.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”
What one earns in a day will pay for what one eats in a day in those days...
Those who have debt now will not necessarily be afflicted more than those who have little debt. Social unrest will impact all. Those who are seen to have food will be always be in fear of those who are hungry. A nation who has forgotten God will suffer under the grind of Satan.
If you want to understand what might occur again, read up on what happened in the 1930s in Germany. Hitler found a nation willing to sell it soul for the lie...
In Christ
Jeff
Dear Saints
Greetings in JEsus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
i asked our Lord a question concerning the business which He had us start some time ago, "Lord, how will this thing survive in the midst of a collapsed economy?" He has it all in Hand for sure but the simple answer is that buying and selling will continue, just not as freely as we know it now. The scripture which bro Rookie quoted speaks of a time when we may have to work for food to eat to live. bro Compton had some wise words for us and i hope we heed them:
Just remember, laying awake at night with fears of the economy crashing doesn't lessen your debt...only a plan with a schedule and a budget will do that. So once you get a plan in place, protect your mind and emotions so you can hang in there and work your plan consistently.
my wife and i recently have worked to consolidate our unsecured debt. we have yet to finalize things on that but in the process we learned some interesting bits of info. Companies which consolidate debt buy your debt as a derivative for pennies on the dollar from your creditor. Then they turn around and make you pay it all and so there is a killing being made doing this right now. it seems to stem from the fact that much of the money being loaned to people doesn't exist until we apply for it...sometime about fractional reserve lending? i don't know if all our debt will be forgiven but it is interesting how greed can drive men to conceive such plans...a bank can lend up to 10 times what it has in cash reserves, i'm not sure who keeps us with whether that is done properly, but i figure if they can do 10 times, they can do 20 and so on...
as i believe our Lord showed me what would ensue from the economic collapse and destruction of NYC and DC, the government will be unable to keep the peace and unrest of a kind which has probably never been seen here before will ensue. The military will come to the aid of police but that won't be enough and that will be the undoing of our military.
i was speaking to m brother in law Gabriel (Jimm on this site) who is in Zimbabwe now and living the thing which is coming here soon. Another case study of what shall come would be Zimbabwe, at least in terms of the economic and social effect. 80% unemployment, inflation at over 9000%, corruption, starvation, disease and so on. Of course not all the happenings in Zimbabwe may necessarily be applicable here, but certainly i believe there are some things which we can learn.
at any rate dear saints the bottom line is simply to be focused on Jesus. At the end of the day, therein is our All, He will surely guide us and show us what we ought to do day by day and His Grace is sufficient for us all and in that i place all my hope. our Lord hasn't said for me to do anything in preparation as yet so i have no choice but to trust that He has made provisions, even if they are meagre.
Grace and Peace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.
You will find that often our fear over our money is because we haven't learned to control it. Dave does a good job of taking the dread and foreboding out of your debt problems and gets you feeling hopeful again.
I like Dave's frequent cliche's about being debt free. The key to being debt free is [i]contentment[i]below
The challenge then becomes for folk that have health issues and children that need health care in the US. One extended trip to the hospital can bankrupt a family without insurance, even if they have their mortgage paid, etc. In our part of the country the not-for- profit hospitals were bought out by big investors and consolidated into a brand new huge hospital. I guess what I'm saying is, the world seems to always have a way of keeping a hook in our jaw.
I would like some input from those who understand the financial world. When the stock market does crash and money has become quite useless, what happens to those people that owe large sums of money to banks?
Okay, it goes like this:
A low-interest-rates-economy is good for borrowers because it means you have less interest to pay back (ie, it's cheaper to pay back the money you borrowed to buy all those things you thought you needed but you really didn't).
A high-interest-rates-economy is bad for borrowers because it costs you way more to pay back the same amount of money.
Today, because interest rates are low, you might pay anywhere between 6-8% on your mortgage.
In the mid 80s, when interest rates were through the roof, you'd be paying 18-24% on a mortgage (ie, on the high end, a quarter of your monthly payment would go to interest alone).
Now, most mortgages have floating interest rates - this means they track the interest rates set by your national bank (for instance, the Federal Reserve or the Bank of Canada)... I'll get back to this in a minute.
When interest rates are low, lots of people are borrowing money, therefore, the Federal Reserve has to print lots of money. The more money there is in a given economy, the less each individual dollar's worth (because there's so many of them). This is called [i]inflation
Sometimes, inflation can get a little out of control and dollars start plummeting in value - as is happening to the late/great American dollar today. The primary reason for inflation is low interest rates because they make borrowing so much more affordable. The more people borrowing, the more money needs to be printed, the more money in the system, the less each dollar's worth. Okay so far?
When inflation gets out of control, the "boys in the backroom" begin to raise interest rates, which means borrowers have to pay back more money on their loans, making credit less attractive, and, thus, less people borrow money, which means less dollars in circulation, which means each individual dollar's worth more. This is called [i]deflation
Unfortunately, in a deflationary economy people with [i]floating mortgages
To kick the homeowners while they're down, less people want to buy their homes at 18-24% interest rates - thus, people that mortgaged their homes during the low-interest, easy-credit, high-property-price market, will find their homes worth far less than they were before.
Say you borrowed $400,000.00 at 6% interest in 1977 to purchase your house. To curb rampant inflation, the Federal Reserve increases interest rates every year for the next five years.
Fast-forward to 1982, you are paying 22% interest on a $400,000 loan. The monthy payments are killing you, so you put a "For Sale" sign on your front lawn. No one's willing to pay you more than $200,000 for your house because nobody can afford it "with interest rates being so high, and all". You've defaulted on some payments. The wife is yelling at you because you can't afford to take her to Hawaii like you promised. The kids are hungry. You go bankrupt. Greedy guys in suits forclose on your house...
This is why the Founding Fathers wrote in the Constitution, Article 1, Section 10, Paragraph 1, Clause 4:
[i]No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Paper can be printed. Gold and silver cannot be.
[i]"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies". - Thomas Jefferson
[i]"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning". - Henry Ford
Hope this helps.
How would this work for debts such as student loans?
Cory-h ,Yes this is all true.I would like to add that lenders who are there for one reason only,to make money,have adopted a "dice game" approach to lending.Just loan money to everybody. The "payers" out number the "nonpayers" so we COULD stand to make a fortune.
Real estate agents get their big commission checks and move on to the next big deal leaving stressed out homeowners in their wake.[they think in terms of commission not client's best interest]
If you run the numbers on the aversge household you see they live in a illusion.You see the big car and fancy house and think"wow what do they do for a living"?
It usually is all props.
WELIVE IN A MAKE BELIEVE SOCIETY
Most people have turned in their church membership to worship at the alter of baale. Self is king.
Only a miricle can turn this around which means only one thing.....REVIVAL.
There is also a factor that is overlooked in this discussion. ONE WORLD GOV......Look at the strategic blunder we are stepping in.
China is making our ballbearings.
Guess what our military CANNOT do without.....BALLBEARINGS
"they" have almost got us.
.......David
MSeaman, You and me will be just fine! Our God will provide! You will find work when it seems impossible and you WILL be able to pay your loan!
You caan take that to the bank! [no pun intended]
......David
David-Thank you for the words of encouragement.
The only debt my husband and I have are 2 car payments and my student loan. It isn't that I am worried, I just wondered how those types of loans would be handled. It isn't like they can come and take my education away. :)
I think God has been urging me to pay down my debt for years, I just haven't listened to the urging of the Holy Spirit. I used to make nearly twice as much money in the commercial sector as I now make working for a Christian non-profit, and I'm putting more towards my debts... thats just the sad state of things.
My Pastor had once preached about the chains that keep us from going out and doing God's will in our lives... two of them that applied to me where my debt and my weight (health).
About a year ago I made the mistake of reading KP Yohannan's books, all of them. I don't necessarily agree with all of his missiology, but he does have a very good perspective on living simply. I also was listening to a lot of Zac Poonen at the time which echoed the same mentality.
More recently I was reading Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secret, and it talked about the decisions that he made in his youth to simplify his life and to put his money towards better uses. I realized that my job is not my only source of income, over the past 25 years I've built up quite a big pile of 'things.' I finally found the urgency to start selling them recently.
Right now I have 7 bibles on eBay, 5 of them are in fine bindings. Oxford, Cambridge and Holman. If you're looking for a nice bible check them out (do a search for 'morocco bible')... ironically I put them up before this thread even appeared.
I don't think we can count on jubilee to free us of our debts as much as we can't count on rapture to free us of our duty to preach the gospel!
For hundreds of years Protestant Christians have been known for their hard work... if we're in debt, it's most likely because of our own materialism or lack of financial discipline... at least thats my case. God never gave me the impression that he's going to forgive my debts here on earth, but I have been given the strong impression by the Holy Spirit that this work, saving, scimping, paying off my debts is probably beneficial for my walk with Jesus.
This is interesting...
...I heard that during the great depression the banks didnt foreclose on the people that were mortgaged to their necks.Instead they foreclosed on those that were almost paid off.
Robert's comments about health care and providing for families is an important topic. On one hand all stuff we buy with money is just stuff..but on the other hand, the medical care, the shelter, food, and clothes we buy with money is important. I believe it is important to our Father as well. He has put his heart in us fathers and mothers to provide for our children. Yet what is a fatherand mother to do when money is scarce?
I had a friend who once wiped the sweat off his brow and quipped to me "Money may not buy happiness, but it sure helps pay off unhappiness." Well there is more then one way to keep financial sorrow at bay...aquiring more and more shrinking dollars is only one way.
Several members of my family including my parents, grandmother, aunts, and uncles, have figured out another way. They have all sold their homes and modified a single house to share together. They each assume roles within the home, and remarkably, even with two teenagers, the place is one of the most low stress environments you'll ever see. Now, it should be admitted that all pretense of being prozac perfect saints with one another is tossed out the window in this situation...there is respect and love... but there are also occasional arguments of course. However the 'stress' from those occasional tiffs is nothing compared to the increasing daily stress of having to generate high dollar volumes just to eat and sleep in expensive homes.
I believe their strategy will become more normal in the coming years. The essence of a good strategy should be hope over dispair. Should the dollar falter or the economy compress, the most powerful currency won't really be gold---it will be the love of God that can afford to give what money can no longer buy. We may learn to push money out of our hearts now, in order to make room for one another there and in our homes as well. :-)
Blessings saints,
MC
Brethren
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
i have spoken to a couple of saints about living simply and they don't seem to be interested. Each time i mentioned it, i'd get a blank stare or no response to an email. i keep mentioning Acts 2 and the community which was at the first and the simplicity in it, there was much Joy and Peace therein because the focus was Jesus. Of course we experience this to some degree individually but how much more when there is a community of such kind? bro Mike Compton said:
I believe their strategy will become more normal in the coming years. The essence of a good strategy should be hope over dispair. Should the dollar falter or the economy compress, the most powerful currency won't really be gold---it will be the love of God that can afford to give what money can no longer buy. We may learn to push money out of our hearts now, in order to make room for one another there and in our homes as well.
this was powerful dear saints, no it IS powerful. on so many levels we are consumed with money such that we don't take on one another's burdens as we ought and hence we lead lives of quiet desperation...i am amazed by the people who will just open up to me sometimes and pour out their griefs/concerns simply because they need an ear. Not someone to judge and advize but to listen and have compassion and offer a prayer. We pretend so much that all is well yet our lives are so desperately out of control and few acknowledge this for fear of perhaps being judged or whatever and yet as believers, we ought to be a community sharing one another's burdens.
i believe like bro Mike that communal living will become more common, um without the hallucinogens that is for you older folk from the 60s :-P, i heard about y'all...i mentioned that idea to some and can you guess the response i got?
ultimately, the Love God and His Spirit will be the only thing can bring us through what i believe is before us. Yet it seems for many people i talk to, this MOst Essential thing is scarce :-(
God Help us.AMEN.
Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
Mseaman asked,
How would this work for debts such as student loans?
Odds are, you have "floating interest" on your student loans - this means if interest rates rise, payments on your loans will rise.
I thank you for all the replies thus far, I hope this thread serves as a base to encourage one another with this type of information for those of us that are in debt and even those that are considering going into debt. Your answers have all been enlightening and I can feel the sincerity.
A few years back my Banking institution gave me a 20,000 dollar line of credit and a Visa gold card of $80,000. I turned down both offers and went with a 10,000 dollar line of credit and a $5,000 visa card. They didn't check what I had like a car house etc.. they just gave it to me. The interest rate for the line of credit is 9% plus 4%prime. The interest rate for the visa at the start was 8% now it's 12%. I don't spend frivolously. The line of credit has been used on building material to build up my apartment. I have been living in the living room and bedroom for the last few years but my kitchen is still not done because I have been so hesitant on spending anymore money, because of the uncertainty. I want to get out of debt and just use money that I earn to get more of the work done that needs to be done to make my kitchen workable, than to buy on credit and paying that off.
The credit card was used for building material, restaurants, and sometimes groceries. For the last few months I managed to get the line of credit down and my intention was to use the line of credit to pay off the visa card. Yesterday I payed off the bulk of the visa and left some because my next bill is on the 13th and then I will completely pay them off on that day.
I got a letter the other day from the bank stating that it has dropped the monthly payment plan of 300 dollars for the line of credit to just paying the interest/or $75. I have no intention to just paying that amount, I want to pay off the principle.
Since I don't use my visa card anymore, yet I still have it in my wallet. And believe me there is no temptation to use it, I lived simply before I can do it again. Do you think I should keep it or should I cut it up?
Comptom wrote:
Several members of my family including my parents, grandmother, aunts, and uncles, have figured out another way. They have all sold their homes and modified a single house to share together.
I am curious: how many people live under this roof? or, better yet, mind sharing more details about this arrangement? It is a fascinating concept...
ginnyrose
Hi Ginnyrose,
and Ironman as well,
And anyone else interested in what I shared below:).
They have 7 people...soon 8...and two dogs. Actually there are three generations which span from two teenagers to my 80 year old granmother.
Each person has a seperate room, with the only common areas being the family, dining and kitchens. Each person brought a measure of financial equity to the equation to help build out the house modestly to their needs. And of course each person handles a portion of the practical 'chores' which includes care giving for my granmother.
What I find most interesting though is not the segregation of physical chores, but the segregation of spiritual, emotional, and mental roles that happens in this household. For instance, my dad provides the common sense practicality, while my mom tends to provide the group diplomacy, smoothing over disputes. One of my aunts brings a shrewd sense to buying food, clothing and other commodities for everyone. My older cousin helps in this area as well but also provides a second helping hand in the raising and discipline of my younger siblings who are the teenagers. (Ex military...) The teenagers on the other hand bring a sense of vitality and youthful energy to the place. My granmother provides a rich spiritual legacy to everyone. Having walked with the Lord since she was a teenager herself, her stories, recollections, and perspectives are salt, preserving and flavoring our entire family.
This summer I brought my herd of 5 family members to spend a week in the house, and there was plenty of room to my surprise. By day the economics of the situation afforded everyone time to spend with us, tooling around town. The evenings were perfectly spent just visiting. My family seems to welcome my silly stories as if I was paid entertainment, so thats always fun. The teenagers entertained with some of the music they were learning, and the adults swapped funny or meaningful stories over leftovers and coffee. One night was especially meaningful to me, as I shared from an antique history book I had come across of the United Brethren movement printed in the late 1800's. Everyone seemed very content to have me read whole sections of this book for well over an hour. (Well, except the teens...)
Now I wouldn't want to give a false impression of Little House on the Praire. Those moments I listed are the finest parts of this experience. There are gritty parts as well. When we first got there, we felt regretful that first night about sharing a week of 'vacation' being surrounded by family members. The adjustment took a little while for all of them as well... I won't mention who, but someone irritated the entire clan by leaving their false teeth in a glass once on the kitchen counter. Messy people and orderly people tend to put each other off. The teens are still strong minded and needing discipline...even grandma can get on everyone's nerves when she isn't feeling well;). And the neighborhood committee gave my dad some resistance in the beginning when he was building onto the house. (Not that people's opinions ever seemed to bother him...)
But soon maybe my uncle's family may join them...and perhaps he'll really entertain them with incessant Hebrew and Greek lessons. Now he really knows how to party. LOL
All in all, it's shown me how skewed my perceptions of 'privacy' are. By the time we left I was profoundly sad at leaving the fellowship there, and for weeks afterwords felt convicted at the amount of personal waste involved in my current lifestyle. (In the past few years we have radically downsized...but still there is waste.)The thing I am realizing more and more, is that even those of us on average incomes could lose half of our wealth and still have no clue what real poverty is compared to many countries today. I'm not saying this to shame us, but to encourage us that if something bad happens to the economy, it needn't be as terrible as we imagine. In fact, even if the economy doesn't affect us in the way we fear, we may elect from the liberty we have in God to affect our own lifestyles pre-emptively.
I'll be honest....there is room on my property for another family and I feel that if we stay here that this space will be used of God to meet just that need.
By the way Ironman...their's is a drug free commune! LOL
Well I hope this answers some questions!
Blessings saints,
MC
The credit card was used for building material, restaurants, and sometimes groceries. For the last few months I managed to get the line of credit down and my intention was to use the line of credit to pay off the visa card. Yesterday I payed off the bulk of the visa and left some because my next bill is on the 13th and then I will completely pay them off on that day.
Compliments, there are a few methods I know of to eliminate debt.
One, start with the smallest debts first. If you start by paying off the, say, $300.00 to your local phone company, that small success will boost your moral. Then, move on to the $500.00 you owe on your couch... then, the $2000.00 Visa bill...
Small victories such as these can help one regain a sense of control over financial matters.
Or, two, start paying down your debts that are costing you more in interest. If your Visa is the debt accumulating the highest interest, increase your monthly payments to that (and pay less on the the other debts) until it's completely paid off.
This will save you more money in the long run, but you won't get the immediate gratification that comes from paying off those little debts that are easier to erase.
I got a letter the other day from the bank stating that it has dropped the monthly payment plan of 300 dollars for the line of credit to just paying the interest/or $75. I have no intention to just paying that amount, I want to pay off the principle.
Nice of them, eh? If they could, those greedy bankers would have you paying interest for the rest of your life. Why would they want their $5000.00 principle back if, by letting you hold on to it for another fifteen years, they can make $20,000 in interest?
Since I don't use my visa card anymore, yet I still have it in my wallet. And believe me there is no temptation to use it, I lived simply before I can do it again. Do you think I should keep it or should I cut it up?
If there's no temptation to use it, why cut it up?
Just don't carry a balance on it.
I'm surprised that so little scripture has been used to see if God wants His people to be in debt or not.
Does God want us to borrow money, especially when we cannot pay it back?
Prov 22v7, 'The rich rules over the poor and the borrower is servant to the lender'
In light of that scripture, I don't believe God wants us to borrow, or have loans.
I don't want to be anyones servant, in the financial sense. Who wants to be?
I don't have a credit card or any loans or anything, you are not free when you have to live like that.
I watched a video that said the banks will lend to anyone, especially if they are in serious financial difficulties, because all they have to do is increase the intrest whenever they want to, and they will have that person for life.
Romans 13v8, 'Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law'
If scripture says to owe no one anything, then we should not.
Right now, I know a sister in the Lord who is experiencing severe money problems, because of being made homeless by another Christian sister who gave her two days to leave her house and find elsewhere to live.
People have been helpful to her, and they are giving her money, and not looking for it to be paid back.
Some debt just happens, no one can do anything about that.
It's those who accumulate debt for things they don't need, like a world cruise, new this and that. You know what I mean.
Let's not divorce debt from the word of God as though the Bible has nothing to say on the matter.
That's it.
God bless.
Isn't some debt necessary though? For example, chances are if you want to own a home of your own, you will have to take a loan in order to cover that. After-all, most people who earn 40-50k a year don't exactly have 150k stuffed under the mattress (such would take a lifetime to save up for). Granted, you could always rent. But in the long run, renting is generally more expensive, isn't it? And even if you rent, to some degree you are taking on a small load of debt, as generally you sign a lease for 6 or 12 months, which obligates you to either live in your apartment for a year, or pay for the rest of the months you choose not to live there.
Au contraire, my friend, that is the whole purpose of this thread. Even though no scriptures have been submitted, it's definitely on the brain and it's because of the sacred writ that I am inquiring from those who are well equipped mentally to tackle such carnal problems. ;-) Every person who has answered has the scriptures in mind, thus they are encouraging us all to get out of debt lest we will forever be a servant to the lender.I'm surprised that so little scripture has been used to see if God wants His people to be in debt or not.
You are so right Enid. My Mother on the other hand, doesn't live above her means. She uses her credit card very wisely. She pays off her credit cards at the first of the month and she does not leave a balance to roll over to the next month. I like to emulate her in that. Although she was left with a sizable inheritance when my Dad died she only lives off her work place. So if she is running low financially in a month, she buckles down tight and rides the storm until the next month. And her steadfast faith to believe in God for all her provision is encouraging.I don't have a credit card or any loans or anything, you are not free when you have to live like that.
I remember waiting on the LORD for my provision. When the offers came in from the bank, I remember sitting in that office wondering, "I don't need this credit card, I don't need this line of credit", yet there I was signing my name at the bottom line. This was no doubt a test, and I failed miserably.
God help us and our frailties.Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
[b]Compliments wrote;
"I would like some input from those who understand the financial world. When the stock market does crash and money has become quite useless, what happens to those people that owe large sums of money to banks?
[color=FF0000]--- Really i've come to believe it's all about "stewardship" ... When our Lord first started pulling my coat tail about getting out of debt, and more wisely handling what He gives me, that's how He came at me ... being an unwise "steward" in anything is a bad testimony, but nothing seems to impact lives, especially married lives, like unwise "stewardship" of money ... Scripture says He can only trust those who handle what is least, with the more ... Whatever we are unwise in "stewardship" if God really wanted to increase us in more, He couldn't go against His principle ... So ridiculous debt, like most Americans are in, we really should'nt be in, because it's all based on self serving greed, and not need ... The excess we spend on greed, leaves nothing for us to give to the poor, which is the greatest investment any saint can make IN GOD WE TRUST, because He said, he that giveth to the poor He Himself would repay ...
i'm no expert but i seek our Lord hard to "please direct me" into things i can do to at least have some income of worth when things hit the skids (i've got 9 grands) ... One of those things has been to buy actual gold bullion, reposited outside the country, i started when gold was between $625. and $630. ... As the dollar declines the value of precious metals incline, when the dollar fails the prices go thru the roof, right now gold has risen to around $730. per oz ... i listen to Financial Sense Newshour and their precious metals guy says there will probably be one more drop in prices before they really soar ... Silver is now around $13. per oz., as soon as i see a drop my plan (God willing) is to buy 2K worth of it, as it's estimated to go well over $150. per oz ... i plan to hold these past hyper-inflation, until we hit deflation, at which they're worth then should go a much longer way in purchasing power ...
There are some other things i've done investment wise that i don't feel led of our Lord to share, but just recently i've found out that it's now possible to open up "Self directed IRA"s" actually backed by gold and silver, and am looking into turning my present 401K here at work over into that ... Anything based on pure paper alone is gonna lose 50% to all it's value in a market crash, only what's backed by actual precious metals will have any value at all ... In fact one of the 2K i intend to buy in actual 10 cents denominated, pre-1964 coins, to keep at home ... Really seems weird to be doing these type of survivalist things, but i really sense a real strong move of Holy Spirit to act so i do ... After all what's the use of petitioning God about what to do, then not acting on what one gets back because one is uncomfortable with the required moves .. That said i'm still doing a Gideon with the fleece for guidance on this 401K one tho ... It's amazing how initially scary it can be (at least to me) to be moving what the Lord has provided thus far in the percieved safety of what we've become accustomed to, into other far less familiar venues ... But praise God, so far, i'm seeing increase ... i call it my "five loaves and two little fishes fund", i've offered it all up to His use mainly because i believe it of Him my direction in this to the feeding of many somewhere down the pike, so i pray that He'll bless it and break it towards the times-a-coming" ---[/color]
[b]Bro Jeff wrote;
"Before this comes, hyperinflation will set in. The cost of all things will increase almost daily. As soon as one gets paid, he or she will seek to purchase as much food and other essentials that that pay check will buy. Everyone but the wealthy will experience poverty in the way that third world nations live under. "
[color=FF0000]--- Amen, that's what we've just seen with "helicopter Ben Bernanke", and all the other Central Banks around the globe do, printing all that new money in attempts to keep the markets from collapsing ... Only thing tho it kills the value of an already weakly devalued dollar, with hyper-inflation the next stop as they print more and more to the point of $10. for a can of Pepsi, if by that time it's even worth the company making them anymore because no ones buying them ...
Hyper-inflation is caused by the big boys (Gov't, Corporate & The Fed) who crookedly wheel and deal in their excesses, government by borrowing money and not telling the public the truth all because they want to get/stay elected, the public because we want everything for nothing and don't want to hear the truth, and Corporate in bed with politicians/government in bed with The Fed who collectively come up with their economic sorceries (to keep the economy growing no matter how) to slowly strangle we so easily suckered masses into a hysteria of greed and going wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out on the debt limb ... The problem now is the limbs of both "them" and "us" are about to break, and in order of attempt to keep their limb from breaking their answer is to print more and more fiat money (as was done right after 9/11 and the recent Sub-Prime derivatives bombs), on top of all the other money (like China's holding of an actaul trillion and a half) out there ... Bottom line is tho they know that eventually it's all gonna hit the fan, but the top 5% of the pyramid will be making sure that all below them who can drown before it reaches them will ...
Hyper-inflation really is the main reason why you want to be out of debt because as prices drastically increase on commodities of every day necessities, your dollar buys less and less, and you need more and more of them just to maintain status quo ... With salaries never able to meet the need of hyper-inflation the heavily debt laden have to begin choosing who'll the pay out of their dwindling dollar value ... Usually the residence is first priority to keep unless you're already a sub-prime, then food, heat, then the car, your creditors of all the other junk we didn't need usually get the first non-payment hits, credit cards especially, then it starts working it's way back ... Trouble is all those defaults begin taking a toll on the companies, they start laying off, which dominoes, and God forbid if your own job is affected then keeping the house is a problem, especially if you've bought wayyyyyyyyyyy above your means in the first place, and have taken all of the inflated equity out of it too, which means you now owe wayyyyyyyy more than the house is worth, and you can't even sell it ---
i know the only reason i'm not feeing a pinch now in our rising prices is because 15 years ago i began getting out of debt, especially credit card, which i'd run up to 22K (i had to do a lot of repenting, and denial of continued greed to pay that off) ... i don't even find it anoying when gas is over $3.50 a gallon, don't take much notice to food prices, all my needs are met, and i can actually save money and do with it as i believe God directs me to do in regards to the needs of others ... It's all back to "stewardship" ... Praise God that now i seem to be an island of calm within a whole sea of saints i know who are struggling, and hyper-inflation hasn't even hit yet ... To God be all the praise, honor and glory! ...
If i'm not mistaken (higher inflation leads to recession), (hyper-inflation leads to depression), then deflation in prices of everything in great supply but of little demand ... Anyone with a job, ability of affordability, and an intact credit rating (most valuable) will be able to purchase things then that they'd never be able to in boom times ... Wealth doesn't disappear, it just changes hands, and whats about to happen is "a sever correction" of over excess, which'll mean feelings of extreme poverty for a lot of the middle class from falling in a status of living once used to, while some others who've been thrifty, and in my belief those whom God sets up in a Joseph type position of stewardship, may be able to move up in support of their families, other saints, and themselves ...
A recession or depression happens when the demand for money is greater than the supply. When this happens, people stop spending their money. Businesses don't need to make as many products to sell because no one is buying them, so people lose their jobs. Then they have even less money to spend. This leads to a long slowdown in business activity. This is called a depression. A depression always starts with a recession. There was a rise in consumer debts during the "roaring" 20s (but that was a blip compared to the excesses of our "go-go" 80's and "anything goes" 90's) gearing up consumer spending. People were deeply in debt and by the time deflation occurred they were already in serious problems. Income and prices fell by 20-25% but debts remained in the same dollar amount ...
In the Great deppression 45 million, out of the then 150 nillion population became unemployed ... Today we're 300 million, leveraged to the hilt, and are a totally less civil and Godly society ... Interesting times we're living in ... [/color]
[b]Corey_H ...
[color=FF0000]i think you have a pretty good handle on the nasty shenanigan's of "the boys in the back room" ... :-P [/color]
[b]iansmith wrote;
"I think God has been urging me to pay down my debt for years, I just haven't listened to the urging of the Holy Spirit."
[color=FF0000]--- i didn't heed till i was about 40, but i think even now there's a lot to be said for repentance to Him if one comes to think of themselves as not being a "good steward", and then just start to live with your means ... That's the hard part initially, because it starts to become clear just how "want" motivated we are ---[/color]
[b]Compliments wrote;
"Since I don't use my visa card anymore, yet I still have it in my wallet. And believe me there is no temptation to use it, I lived simply before I can do it again. Do you think I should keep it or should I cut it up?"
[color=FF0000]--- What i heard Suze Orman say regarding credit cards is to pay them off, keep your oldest bank card(s) and never cancel them because if you do it takes massive points off your credit score ... A good credit score is always good because on at least two things most of us can't pay cash for (modest home and car) you'll get the best interest rate available ... i used to have about 20 credit cards, store cards, etc. .... Now i have 3 paid off old bank cards i never use, an AMEX i use all the time and pay off every month, and a Firestone card for my car that when i pay within 90 days i have three months to stretch out anything big but pay no interest ...
Our Lord can really turn one around when we submit to His instructions ... i'm a witness of one who used to be very twisted about bills and such, never seeming to have enough money, but now that my priorities have been altered i hardly ever think about $$$, except to ask Him to guide me that i might be a blessing to others in times of real need ---[/color]
[b]ginnyrose wrote;
"I am curious: how many people live under this roof? or, better yet, mind sharing more details about this arrangement? It is a fascinating concept..."
[color=FF0000]--- i laughed :-P when i saw this because the concept is the same one the majority of families in the U.S. began with ... My Dad used to always say that there would come a time in America again where families would have to live with one another again in mutual survival, care and nuturing ---[/color]
[b]KingJimmy wrote;
Isn't some debt necessary though?
[color=FF0000]--- Yes i think most folk are gonna have some "debt", especially here in the U.S. where if you don't have at least one major credit card you can't even rent a car ... i think "modesty" is the key, living within one's means, but seems like a great majority of saints are in as much debt as any other American ... i believe if one, with any kind of conscience at all, finds themselves constantly thinking about the money they owe, you're in way to much debt ... That's how i used to be, and praise God that i'm no longer there ... i find life much more enjoyable now, than then ---[/color]
[b]--- Blessings to you all in Christ Jesus our Lord :-D ---
King Jimmy asked
Isn't some debt necessary though? For example, chances are if you want to own a home of your own, you will have to take a loan in order to cover that. After-all, most people who earn 40-50k a year don't exactly have 150k stuffed under the mattress (such would take a lifetime to save up for). Granted, you could always rent.
Jimmy, we have all been conditioned by the flesh, the world, and the devil to want more than we need. One might figure because the Jones' went to university, have a new car and truck, live in a three-story house, and have a timeshare they visit in Hawaii twice a year, that we can have it, too. But one rarely considers the "cost" involved: student loans, leases on the car and truck, a mortgage, and Visa-sponsored vacations (that is, if one wasn't raised with a silver spoon).
Solomon noted, "the borrower is servant to the lender". Government-sponsored student loans ensure that university educated persons from the lower classes are enslaved to debt. Thus, the government is able to mitigate the revolutionary effects of education in society and government by keeping "the mice spinning their wheels".
"Debt has always been the 'Machiavellian' way by which ALL governments control the masses." - alternative-debt-sloutions.com
Was my 2-years at college worth six years in debt? A very hearty, "No!"
Is a 4-year bachelor's degree worth 12 years of debt payments?
Is a house worth twenty years of mortage payments?
Especially when you consider that, after one's student loans and mortgage, cars, etc are paid off, one's probably paid twice to three times the principle in interest!
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (MATT 16:26)
Soul is life. Drip, drip, dripping our lives away into an ocean of debt - half our life consumed by paying off things we never needed in the first place.
As for mortages, a person that mortgages a house does not own it: the bank owns it until it's paid off. And if you have a floating mortgage rate (which many do), when interest rates rise, your monthly payment rises, too. For many, already strapped for cash, that means, "bye, bye house".
"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (MATT 7:26-27)
Building a house on debt is like building a house on sand. It only takes one storm to bring it to the ground.
[b]Corey_H you wrote;
"Building a house on debt is like building a house on sand. It only takes one storm to bring it to the ground." ...
---Amen, that's why we're supposed to have insurance too :-P ...
[color=FF0000]i'm intrigued, do you own your home (purhased it with cash), or do you live in an apartment? ... Also do you purchase everything outright, car, etc. [/color]
i've been in my apartment for 20 years now, and a lot of my friends used to really ridicule me for it, but i've really never wanted the upkeep of a house, also i like living in the suburbs and i've found it much more affordable to do so in my apt. than buying a house ...
Another reason i'm glad i didn't buy a house is that i'm glad i wasn't tempted by the "home equity scam" at all ... So many of my friends and family were, and now there in a pretty bad place ...
Blessings in Christ Jesus! ...
Is a house worth twenty years of mortage payments?
If it is cheaper to pay a mortgage for 30 years than rent, I would say it is. Not to mention that over the next 30 years the cost of rent will go up. But if you have a fixed-rate APR mortgage, in the long run, you will pay less money than if you rent. And even when you rent, you are locked in for the length of your lease. So, renting is liked having a mortgage. The only difference is the duration of your mortgage.
I'd say if you have a variable rate loan or credit card though, you are taking a rather big risk. Especially since rates have much more room to go up than down.
Rahman said:
This is basically what has happened with our family. We believe that the LORD has brought us together to live under one roof for a purpose. There have been a couple of times that I wanted to leave but I never felt that wooing of the holy Ghost to go, but to stay put. Thanks for sharing that. And amen to your post.My Dad used to always say that there would come a time in America again where families would have to live with one another again in mutual survival, care and nurturing
I agree. I lived in rooming houses in my younger years and then to apartments and now in my Sisters house having my own apartment. I like to be free from the cares of having to worry about upkeep and insurance. I don't even a own a car, I walk or take the bus, boat or plane.I've been in my apartment for 20 years now, and a lot of my friends used to really ridicule me for it, but I've really never wanted the upkeep of a house, also i like living in the suburbs and I've found it much more affordable to do so in my apt. than buying a house
I'll admit I have been an unprofitable servant when it comes to stewardship. I gave so much more when I wasn't in debt, but I am determined to get out of debt and only live within my means. It's funny how you said that you didn't start taking your debts seriously until you turned 40, I turned 40 this year and it's weighing heavily on my mind. Thanks Rahman for that testimony.
Personally, though I'm no guru on this topic, I like Corey's anti-debt policy.
Edit for brevity:
If it is cheaper to pay a mortgage for 30 years than rent
Housing is important, but don't believe for a second that a house payment is an asset...by the time a 30 year mortgage has meaningful equity you could've been building 20 times the equity elsewhere.
My advice to young people without children, is to rent and save if they can't afford a shorter term loan. Now of course rent is the ultimate interest payment. So work to keep the interest payment low with radical home sharing measures if needed. Many "wealthy' Christians I know, who are living sensational lives off of other people's money, wish they could be living better lives in a mobile-camper, serving the Lord.
For many men, that moment they do finally wake up to their debt is like that slave galley scene from Ben Hur! Debt is personified in Arrius the slavemaster, who tells the slaves chained to rowing oars below deck for the rest of their lives, "We keep you alive to serve this ship. Row well and live."
I have a friend who has had bad credit early most of his life. Throughout his 20's and 30's he felt disadvantaged, because everyone else was 'movin' on up' while he was still renting. Yet now in his mid-40's he finds that he is actually one of the best positioned people he knows because he wasn't 'blessed' with bank credit. (Ahhh, if only he knew the power of the dark side!) Sure my buddy drives an egg-beater instead of an Escalade...but at least he owns it. ;-)
MC
Here is a teaching by Mose Stoltzfus on mortgages and loans. He is a preacher from Charity Christian Fellowship where two of the speakers for the up coming Revival Conference are from...
http://www.charityministries.org/audio/3127.mp3
In Christ
Jeff
KingJimmy said
If it is cheaper to pay a mortgage for 30 years than rent, I would say it is. Not to mention that over the next 30 years the cost of rent will go up. But if you have a fixed-rate APR mortgage, in the long run, you will pay less money than if you rent. And even when you rent, you are locked in for the length of your lease. So, renting is liked having a mortgage. The only difference is the duration of your mortgage.
Okay. So say your mortage rate is "locked in" at an attractive rate, and inflation goes through the roof, and the government attempts to curb inflation by raising interest rates...
Then, we're in a deflationary market with no easy credit, thus, less money for everyone to spend, thus lower prices on big ticket items that people want to desperately sell... just like your home - which is now worth half the price of what you originally bought it for.
Now you're paying a $300,000 mortgage for a house no one can afford to buy for more than $150,000...
Is your locked-in relatively low-interest mortgage rate worth the actual loss on your principle investment?
If you think I'm making all of this up, research what happened during the great depression, and what happened in the eighties, after interest rates went sky high.
Sorry to be so blunt: no good can come by [i]buying now what you can't afford with somebody else's money
Rent until you can afford to buy - at least you won't be a slave to interest rates and those dirty pigs generally referred to as "bankers".
Compton said
For many men, that moment they do finally wake up to their debt is like that slave galley scene from Ben Hur! Debt is personified in Arrius the slavemaster, who tells the slaves chained to rowing oars below deck for the rest of their lives, "We keep you alive to serve this ship. Row well and live."
Oh! That's rich! >;')
Corey_H ...
i'll ask again, in light of your answer to King Jimmy about a mortgage ...
"Do you own your home (purhased it with cash), or do you live in an apartment? ... Also do you purchase everything outright, car, etc."
i ask this because i wonder how you've done it, and would like to know if you'd care to share ...
If you don't answer again --- i'll take that as a "no" :-( ...
Blessings in Christ Jesus ...
Sorry Rahman, didn's see you ask me that the first time...
I rent.
I paid off my debts in February.
I'm considering taking a log-home-building course sometime in the future.
I'm an ex-bartender who now waits tables...
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